Russian Women Discussion

RWD Discussion Groups => Odds and Ends => Topic started by: Gator on February 02, 2020, 02:01:33 PM

Title: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 02, 2020, 02:01:33 PM
Upon first learning of  2019-nCoV, I dismissed it,  believing China with its authoritarian government would take the necessary measures to limit its spread. 

China has failed so far;  the number of human infections has progressed exponentially and continues to do so. The total number of confirmed cases already far exceeds the total number of cases reported for SARS, another coronavirus originating in China.

A graph of past and current 2019 - nCoV infections can be found here showing the exponential growth rate (I attempted to post a graph, yet it was too large for the RWD page).   

  http://www.biancoresearch.com/bianco/samples/2020/01/DashVirus012820.png

Unchecked exponential growth is very serious.  A second chart shows the current rate would infect 138 million persons by 20 February!   The projections can be seen using logarithmic scales as below:   

  http://www.biancoresearch.com/bianco/samples/2020/01/DashVirusProgression012820b.png


It is claimed that the exponential spread resulted from China suppressing the news about this outbreak.  The same autocracy that allowed China to suppress the news now allows them to implement drastic measures. 

A virus tracker maintained by Johns Hopkins University shows 14,637 confirmed cases worldwide.  For updates, go to:

http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
 
Today's info shows a ray of sunshine as the total falls below the exponential rate consistently seen from the start through 27 January.   There are more rays of sunshine.  2019- CoV has now been replicated and samples have been distributed worldwide to research organizations. 

2019 - CoV is not as fatal as SARS, yet is much more infectious.  It has the capacity to lower economic growth significantly worldwide.  My old employer, WHO, has declared a PHEIC, a public health emergency of international concern.  Not unprecedented, yet very serious. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 02, 2020, 02:15:58 PM
If the coronavirus remains unchecked and hits the United States, we are far more prepared than most other nations in addressing the disease and in handling infected patients. 

The most prepared nations were Canada, Netherlands, Thailand, and the United States.  I imagine a reason for the US being ranked "most prepared" is the preparation we have done for terrorism involving nuclear, biological and chemical attacks. 

http://www.nti.org/about/projects/global-health-security-index/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 02, 2020, 02:27:06 PM
I allowed myself to be misled by the bianco charts I referenced earlier that were claiming exponential growth of infections.  The current data from John Hopkins suggest the  rate is probably transitioning into logarithmic growth seen as follows for bacterial colonies: 

(http://cdn.britannica.com/s:700x500/68/6168-050-EB74BC4E/growth-curve-colonies-phases.jpg)

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 02, 2020, 02:40:59 PM
The slowing of confirmed cases in China can be seen in this Johns Hopkins chart. 

http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

A cynic could argue that growth slowed for just one day or the Chinese statisticians took a break to rest for a day.  :D   Neverthless the total number is well less than that predicted just a few days ago by Bianco's exponential growth. 


Sorry, I rushed this while organizing a Superbowl Pool.  Go Chiefs! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 02, 2020, 03:03:51 PM
http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
 
Today's info shows a ray of sunshine as the total falls below the exponential rate consistently seen from the start through 27 January.   


The slowing of confirmed cases in China can be seen in this Johns Hopkins chart. 

http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

A cynic could argue that growth slowed for just one day or the Chinese statisticians took a break to rest for a day.  :D   Neverthless the total number is well less than that predicted just a few days ago by Bianco's exponential growth. 


Don't predict sunshine yet. I've looked at that website everyday. The graph will look flat(no increase of new infections reported) between yesterday and the current day until the next update which is tonight. The numbers infected get updated in the evening USA time. Every day the final report of new infections broke a record. Revisit that site tonight or in the morning and you will see that graph change. What we can celebrate, although there is no cure, there have been over 400 people that beat the virus on their own and made a full recovery.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 03, 2020, 08:17:39 AM
Over the last two days, the reported number of confirmed cases increased, yet at a slower rate than seen in late January.   We just hope the Chinese are reporting actual data.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on February 03, 2020, 08:20:12 AM
We just hope the Chinese are reporting actual data.   

Like there really is a tooth fairy.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 03, 2020, 08:26:06 AM
It is concerning because China knows that people must soon start going outside their home if the economy is  not to falter.    Will they risk public health to save the economy?     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 03, 2020, 08:32:12 AM
ECONOMIC IMPACT

The impact of coronavirus on the global economy may affect us more than the public health impact.  An interview today on CNBC with the renown economist Mohamed El-Erian was concerning:

      -  He spoke of "accelerating sudden stop dynamics." In 2008, the financial issue of mortgage defaults cascaded into the Great  Recession.   Coronoavirus is not a financial issue but an economic one. 
      -  China's economy  will surely be hit hard if people are not leaving their homes.  Minimal shopping, slowdown at factories, etc.
      -  El-Erian is concerned about a possible economic ripple effect:  China to Emerging Asia to Europe to America. 
      -  Europe's growth is already slowing (1.2% for 2019) approaching stall speed.   
      -  While the Central Banks' injections worked in 2008-2010, this time they may be ineffective.  Europe is already at near zero rates.   How does increasing money flow help in China if people are not flowing. 
      -  We do not know if this economic "shock" is  containable, temporary and reversible.  Each is important.   

The general feeling I perceive from watching analysts is do not  make a wholesale sell of stocks.  However, it is not a time to buy the dips nor the time to be leveraged.    Some selective selling seems prudent. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on February 03, 2020, 09:46:57 AM
The Moby crowd start writing articles.
 
Fears of new virus trigger anti-China sentiment worldwide
http://apnews.com/04f18aafe1074a1c06b4203edcbdc661


Fear of coronavirus fuels racist sentiment targeting Asians
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fear-of-coronavirus-fuels-racist-sentiment-targeting-asians/ar-BBZBw8I

Passengers sprayed with hoses on runway after flying from coronavirus epicentre
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/passengers-sprayed-hoses-after-flying-21421289

Hong Kong shuts most China crossings over virus as medics strike
http://news.yahoo.com/hong-kong-medics-strike-china-border-closure-over-032415572.html


Prediction: MIAE
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on February 03, 2020, 09:53:56 AM

(http://cdn.creators.com/199/271616/271616_image.jpg)


(http://cloudinary.cagle.com/image/upload/w_600/cartoons/234522.png)


(http://cloudinary.cagle.com/image/upload/w_600/cartoons/234591.png)


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 03, 2020, 03:08:31 PM
We may never learn how many people will have died from the virus. Before this became official news, journalists in China and people on the internet were talking about the mysterious new illness and got arrested for doing so. The story ended up being too big for China to hide but I suspect they are still underreporting numbers to give the impression things aren't so bad. Most regions in China reporting infections in the hundreds also report zero deaths according to the latest reports.

http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

A few days ago there were 16 cities under lockdown and 60 million people quarantined. The numbers may have increased. Imagine 20% of Americans locked down. China should've put out a public health warning and took action before this got out of control.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on February 03, 2020, 04:50:23 PM
BillyB-

I thought China was in fact pro-active about this. They had quarantined the entire city proper FWIW, and immediately issue travel warnings, building makeshift hospitals to treat those afflicted, etc...(?)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 03, 2020, 05:50:39 PM
BillyB-

I thought China was in fact pro-active about this. They had quarantined the entire city proper FWIW, and immediately issue travel warnings, building makeshift hospitals to treat those afflicted, etc...(?)


I wanted to believe China was doing the right thing but after reviewing old articles, they were trying to cover it up. The virus is named 2019-nCoV because it was discovered in 2019 Dec 8, yet we just learned about it a couple of weeks ago. China didn't put out public health and travel warnings. They were arresting people that talked about it. They weren't building hospitals until this thing exploded out of control to the point they couldn't keep it a secret anymore.

Two days before Wuhan, with the Communist party's blessing, told the world about the outbreak, they advertised a potluck for citizens and got more than 40,000 families together in one spot to eat in hopes they'd break a world record. The same day they announced the outbreak, the city also advertised they're giving away 200,000 free tickets to attend the city's new year celebration! Business as usual. Very irresponsible of the government to sponsor large groups of people together TWICE knowing there is an unknown and uncontrollable virus that has affected some of their citizens.

http://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/22/health/virus-corona.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/china-information-crackdown-on-wuhan-coronavirus-2020-1

No saying goodbye to loved ones. China says infected dead bodies to be immediately cremated,

http://www.yahoo.com/news/china-says-wuhan-coronavirus-victims-035557851.html

Bird flu is back in China. Over 4000 dead. All we need now is the swine flu to return to China to complete the reunion.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/china-reports-bird-flu-outbreak-213148810.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on February 03, 2020, 06:08:28 PM
It's OK. I read a report the common flu virus killed 10,000 Americans last year alone. Denge fever had so far killed 5 Bolivians this year so far, etc... Big Deal right?

According to our liberal zealots the world is imploding by 2012 making whatever China is doing, or not, seem rather trivial, don't you think?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 03, 2020, 06:50:43 PM
It's OK. I read a report the common flu virus killed 10,000 Americans last year alone. Denge fever had so far killed 5 Bolivians this year so far, etc... Big Deal right?

According to our liberal zealots the world is imploding by 2012 making whatever China is doing, or not, seem rather trivial, don't you think?


This coronavirus is a big deal. Russia, as well as most China's neighbors, closed it's 2600 mile land border with China. Governments are quarantining people arriving from China if they are even allowed to enter. China has quarantined 60 mil people. 170+ nations don't even have 60 mil people. Governments aren't alarming people but the steps they are taking are alarming. There are no vaccines or anti viral medicines to beat the virus, only quarantine to slow the spread of it.

Everybody on this forum got a flu virus once or multiple times in their lives and survival rate is high. If a billion people got the flu and a million died, this number is acceptable to governments and the medical community. The standard flu virus we deal with mutates but is predictable and big pharma can develop new vaccines every year to beat it. Take a look at the link below. The Hubai region which contains the city of Wuhan reported 414 deaths and 396 recoveries. I doubt the numbers reflect truth but assuming they are true, when a person's battle with the virus is over, there is less than a 50% survival rate. Most of the time the virus wins the battle and if it went around the world once, over half the world's population would be wiped out. Of course there will be other factors involved in survival rate. We have better medical care and medicine to boost our immune systems. It's up to our immune system to beat the virus because there is no cure for it.

http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

IMO, this is a very important topic that impact lives and should be moved to Odds and Ends where guests could read it. Being in Anything Goes, only a few signed in forum members could read it so hopefully a mod can move it to Odds and Ends.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 04, 2020, 07:23:17 PM

Good news. The first man in the US diagnosed with the coronavirus makes a full recovery. I'm sure he had the best doctors and medical treatment to help his immune system beat the virus.

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/1st-patient-diagnosed-coronavirus-u-s-released-hospital-n1129201

Bad news is it seems China is still underreporting the amount of deaths. Most provinces report 0 deaths although some provinces have 1000 people infected. Also, yesterdays new infection count took it's biggest jump ever with 4000 newly confirmed infections.

http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on February 05, 2020, 03:24:44 PM
A friend in our group chat is a Microbiologist and is keeping tabs on this, he shared these links earlier today. Not sure the truth contained in the first but the second is in a journal that isn't yet peer reviewed and seems truthful. The first seems to indicate what most figured but couldn't prove. The numbers are 10x lower than 'actual' we'll see in the coming days I suppose.

http://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3871594?fbclid=IwAR2oyclU3mCSFfGngnhCbNL1Q1XKtIwEa4WYNBPEgwEcL1ejzYQr25uvHXQ

According to Chinese scientists, the Corona Virus attaches onto lung receptors that are five times more likely in Asian males, Also....Caucasian people are essentially immune because we have the acetylcholinase inhibitor against the virus.

http://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.01.26.919985v1.full?fbclid=IwAR0rgD_kEjQUd6H5UTyRsnN9lwL68cyHvph6dJ7nRd-HQt67uWi_9c5buFs
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 05, 2020, 03:38:28 PM
The numbers are 10x lower than 'actual' we'll see in the coming days I suppose.


I believe the numbers are higher. There's less data on the John Hopkins link Gator provided in post #1.  China has changed the way they report. I remember some regions in China have around 1000 people infected and they report dozens of recoveries and zero deaths. That can't be right. The amount of people infected on each of China's regions is the data now missing. If it is reported like it was earlier, it will definitely give the impression  the recovery to death ratio has been manipulated.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on February 05, 2020, 03:50:16 PM
Currently it's showing about a 15% mortality rate (25,000 Dead / 155,000 Infected) which also coincides with what the Medical Journal stated as well.

Severe infection by 2019-nCov could result in acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS) and sepsis, causing death in approximately 15% of infected individuals.


(http://backendimage.taiwannews.com.tw/photos/2020/02/05/1580900133-5e3a9f2567c51.jpg)

TAIPEI (Taiwan News) — As many experts question the veracity of China's statistics for the Wuhan coronavirus outbreak, Tencent over the weekend seems to have inadvertently released what is potentially the actual number of infections and deaths, which were astronomically higher than official figures.

On late Saturday evening (Feb. 1), Tencent, on its webpage titled "Epidemic Situation Tracker", showed confirmed cases of novel coronavirus (2019nCoV) in China as standing at 154,023, 10 times the official figure at the time. It listed the number of suspected cases as 79,808, four times the official figure.

The number of cured cases was only 269, well below the official number that day of 300. Most ominously, the death toll listed was 24,589, vastly higher than the 300 officially listed that day.

Moments later, Tencent updated the numbers to reflect the government's "official" numbers that day. Netizens noticed that Tencent has on at least three occasions posted extremely high numbers, only to quickly lower them to government-approved statistics.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on February 05, 2020, 03:52:11 PM
This would also make more sense as to why Crematorium workers at all 3 Crematoriums are working 24/7 With forced overtime.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/we-cant-stop-funeral-worker-says-wuhan-cremating-at-least-100-bodies-a-day-amid-coronavirus-outbreak

Edit: Same as the original Taiwan News story but includes other stories of Dozens of police quarantining a city block after one case was found, as well as pictures of hospitals. Appears to be much more than the "Official" numbers. Don't know anything about the site, but the sources pointing to other pictures, videos and stories are what was interesting to me.

http://www.ccn.com/alleged-tencent-leak-suggests-coronavirus-death-toll-spiraling-to-25000/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: jone on February 05, 2020, 06:15:50 PM
Gilead, an American company, applied for a treatment virus patent three years ago.  The target of this treatment was the Ebola virus.  One of the patent applications was filed in China.   China rejected the patent, even though part of the purpose of the patent was anticipated viral agents similar to Corona.

Now, upon proof by Gilead, that their anti viral agent works on Corona, China is filing its own patent for the same treatment/medication offered by Gilead, even though they rejected Gilead's patent.   They are using Gilead's cure and taking credit for it.

This will not go well in the US.   Gilead is a Foster City, CA based company with tentacles into the Democratic party and the current administration.   Be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 05, 2020, 10:34:24 PM
Currently it's showing about a 15% mortality rate (25,000 Dead / 155,000 Infected) which also coincides with what the Medical Journal stated as well.


Mortality rate is higher. Those that are infected, their fight to live is still going and we won't know the results of that group until the fight is over when they beat the virus or the virus beats them.

John Hopkins reports about 4000 new infections. The highest one day jump so far.

This would also make more sense as to why Crematorium workers at all 3 Crematoriums are working 24/7 With forced overtime.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/we-cant-stop-funeral-worker-says-wuhan-cremating-at-least-100-bodies-a-day-amid-coronavirus-outbreak


My nephew told me about a story he read where someone took a photo of a van full of dead bodies. That person got in trouble. I think most nations know China is underreporting based off their actions of closing borders and banning flights in and out of China.

Gilead, an American company, applied for a treatment virus patent three years ago.  The target of this treatment was the Ebola virus.  One of the patent applications was filed in China.   China rejected the patent, even though part of the purpose of the patent was anticipated viral agents similar to Corona.


There's a risk patenting with the Chinese. You submit the blueprints to your product. They may or may not protect your rights. I wouldn't doubt the Chinese right now are in their patent office stealing the blueprints to the latest drugs and vaccines in hopes something works.

In other news  Chinese doctor who was punished for trying to warn the public early about the virus now has the virus himself. Macau casinos told to close.

http://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/chinese-doctor-punished-for-warning-people-about-coronavirus-now-has-the-illness-203152013.html

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/china-virus-death-toll-posts-grim-record-rise-passes-400/ar-BBZCynr?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 06, 2020, 10:09:26 AM
In other news  Chinese doctor who was punished for trying to warn the public early about the virus now has the virus himself.

http://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/chinese-doctor-punished-for-warning-people-about-coronavirus-now-has-the-illness-203152013.html


Chinese doctor now dead.

http://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/whistleblower-chinese-doctor-dies-coronavirus-155553261.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 06, 2020, 07:10:34 PM
Chinese doctor now dead.

Brave man who was the first to warn China and the world of the virus, then punished by Chinese government, and then died from the virus.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 06, 2020, 07:31:01 PM
http://www.jubakpicks.com/what-we-still-dont-know-about-the-coronavirus-according-to-who-as-chinese-workers-begin-to-return-to-work/


"....in China millions of migrant workers are beginning to return to work in cities around the country with China doing whatever it can think of to minimize the threat of the epidemic spreading on trains and planes.... measures include compulsory temperature checks, strengthened disinfection, better ventilation, and higher hygiene standards in both vehicles and terminals. China Railway will ensure an occupation rate of no more than 50% on trains, while civil aviation authorities have asked airlines to reserve a “quarantine zone” on planes and seat passengers as far apart as possible."
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 06, 2020, 07:34:01 PM
This suggests the worse is over.  Nevertheless, work remains. 

"WHO said it still doesn’t know the source of the outbreak, or what its natural reservoir is, or its transmissibility or severity."

"A number of outside health researchers and organizations tracking the disease say that the next big question is whether the coronavirus epidemic now limited largely to one country becomes a true pandemic with centers of infection arising outside China.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 06, 2020, 07:37:20 PM
Better hurry while the sale is on! 


(http://mail.google.com/mail/u/0?ui=2&ik=f57f246ca2&attid=0.1&permmsgid=msg-f:1657829099836157415&th=1701cac8620a2de7&view=fimg&sz=s0-l75-ft&attbid=ANGjdJ-140YcdFt_blww9-bztYA1Q8Z5v4C7lq0vjXsBFqTFPxcqKlaXUfSgVB84DN4LzK9RyUmdZWqt7RZTWuAHmmaVp79WdICMaJEr0pcG12qgryEspIRyWcGsmhQ&disp=emb)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 11, 2020, 02:44:49 PM
High amounts of Sulfur Dioxide showing all over the populated areas of China. The burning of organics which includes human bodies emits Sulfur Dioxide. Wuhan is showing the most Sulfur Dioxide.

http://www.windy.com/-Show---add-more-layers/overlays?so2sm,44.402,40.957,3
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on February 11, 2020, 05:53:37 PM
High amounts of Sulfur Dioxide showing all over the populated areas of China. The burning of organics which includes human bodies emits Sulfur Dioxide. Wuhan is showing the most Sulfur Dioxide.

http://www.windy.com/-Show---add-more-layers/overlays?so2sm,44.402,40.957,3

I saw that last week, but didn't have a source to confirm it. Seems those leaked numbers are true. Just saw this today.

Here is an estimate of 1.5m coronavirus cases in China, 50,000 deaths in Wuhan
http://www.forexlive.com/news/!/here-is-an-estimate-of-15m-coronavirus-cases-in-china-50000-deaths-in-wuhan-alone-20200210
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 12, 2020, 06:32:20 PM

Nearly 16,000 new cases of infections today which is the biggest one day jump ever.

http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

The WHO gives the virus a new name so it doesn't offend or apply a stigma to a certain group people or animals.

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/coronavirus-gets-official-name-who-covid-19-n1134756
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 12, 2020, 07:05:46 PM
Nearly 16,000 new cases of infections today which is the biggest one day jump ever.

This needs explanation. 

China has changed its basis for determining if a person is infected.  China until this change had reported only cases that have been confirmed by laboratory testing of respiratory and serum samples from clinical specimens.  Now China includes clinically diagnosed cases. 

From the start there were questions about the supply of available test kits and qualified laboratories.  Many assumed that China's analytical capacity was constrained, thereby artificially placing a limit on the maximum number of cases that could be tested in any day.  China was steadily reporting about 3000 new cases per day  in early February and had even reported a slowing of new cases.   

Today China added a second category besides those confirmed by laboratory testing.  This additional category is for clinically diagnosed cases without laboratory confirmation.  This is based primarily CT scan results (which would show severe lung  inflammation, the body's immune system response).   

Under its new protocol,  China today (Feb 13 in China) reported 14,840 new cases vs. 2,000 cases on February 11.       
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 12, 2020, 07:14:39 PM
This needs explanation. 


It's always been assumed China is underreporting and probably still is. John Hopkins only report what they are told. Notice some Chinese provinces have thousands infected, report hundreds recovered, yet report no deaths or one death.

China has a hard time stopping the virus from infecting their most important people to fight the virus. At least 500 medical workers infected and a possible 600 more could be infected. Incompetent management endangering the lives of employees and patients. I've seen plenty of photos of Chinese medical workers and they wear simple masks which can't stop the virus 100% of the time. The ones who are best qualified to give medical attention should be the ones most protected since they are around the virus everyday and are critical in stopping it and saving lives. Are cows still more valuable than human life in China these days?

http://www.businessinsider.com/healthcare-workers-getting-coronavirus-500-infected-2020-2

175 now infected with coronavirus on cruise ship, including quarantine officer. People are probably wishing they cancelled their vacations to Asia like common sense told them so.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2020/02/175-now-infected-with-coronavirus-on-cruise-ship-including-quarantine-officer/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 12, 2020, 07:22:42 PM
Billy,

There have been questions from the start about China's reports or lack thereof.  One US senator raised the possibility the virus may have come from China’s biological warfare program, which supposedly has a laboratory near Wuhan


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 12, 2020, 07:24:15 PM

The WHO gives the virus a new name so it doesn't offend or apply a stigma to a certain group people or animals.


Racial discrimination is indeed occurring, yet the designation has nothing to do with a  stigma.  Previously it was referred to as 2019 - nCoV.

"Following WHO best practices for naming of new human infectious diseases,....WHO has named the disease COVID-19, short for “coronavirus disease 2019.”


http://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200211-sitrep-22-ncov.pdf?sfvrsn=fb6d49b1_2
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 12, 2020, 07:25:46 PM
People are probably wishing they cancelled their vacations to Asia like common sense told them so.



'People' are wondering why you are posting tosh about this virus ..

You KEEP posting about face-masks ... and I keep telling you that the face-masks most folk wear are useless after they become damp - six minutes ...


More people will die from 'flu in the UK / US than your 'fixation' ..

SC is in Asia and I'm NO more worried about her catching Covid-19 than I am you telling 'the world' another version of "How Moby kept SC waiting" and "V wasn't avoiding signing divorce papers" ...or even repeatedly stating  "Moby didn't tell partners about his affliction" ..

You ARE a 'virus'..)))   Just not a very infectious or serious one

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 12, 2020, 07:37:39 PM
The recent news simply reveals that we do not have this disease under control. 

The disease is spreading outside China , infecting people who did not travel to China or have any known contact with someone who did travel.  See WHO's Situation Report 23 http://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200212-sitrep-23-ncov.pdf?sfvrsn=41e9fb78_2

Pay attention to countries such as Singapore, which are 3-4 weeks ahead of the US in this possible pandemic.   

Singapore has 47 cases, 22 "with travel history to China," and 25 cases with "possible or
confirmed transmission outside of China.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 12, 2020, 07:44:18 PM
More people will die from 'flu in the UK / US than your 'fixation' ..


You are very weak in many areas, especially in math and common sense. If you were to get infected this year from a virus and you had a choice, would you want the flu virus or the new coronavirus?

7 billion people on earth probably experienced flu viruses once or multiple times in their lives. Millions have died. If 7 billion people experiences this coronavirus just once, billions will die using the current death vs recovery numbers China is providing. The situation is probably much more grim.

There are vaccines and anti viral medicines for flu viruses. There is no known cure for this coronavirus. But proceed to tell people the flu virus is worse. Nobody trusts you anyway.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on February 12, 2020, 07:51:55 PM
'People' are wondering why you are posting tosh about this virus ..

You KEEP posting about face-masks ... and I keep telling you that the face-masks most folk wear are useless after they become damp - six minutes ...

Where did he keep posting about face-masks? I see one reference to paper/surgical masks. Which is true. Several at the CDC have said the only masks worth using are P95/P100 Style. The greatest advantage to using those paper masks is that people are less likely to touch their face.

More people will die from 'flu in the UK / US than your 'fixation' ..

That's true. I often think about the upcoming new flu variant and how the US/UK is preparing to Quarantine 60 Million people for flu season.  :cluebat:

It's a hassle, but you get used to it living in 2020.

SC is in Asia and I'm NO more worried about her catching Covid-19 than I am you telling 'the world' another version of "How Moby kept SC waiting" and "V wasn't avoiding signing divorce papers" ...or even repeatedly stating  "Moby didn't tell partners about his affliction" ..

You ARE a 'virus'..)))   Just not a very infectious or serious one

At it again I see.


You can't stop

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 12, 2020, 08:05:30 PM
You are very weak in many areas, especially in math and common sense. If you were to get infected this year from a virus and you had a choice, would you want the flu virus or the new coronavirus?

Good point.  Part of the "rumor mill" is an infected person is never cured of COVID -19.  Infected people are not demonstrating  evidence of developing individual immunity to future outbreaks. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 12, 2020, 08:34:02 PM
I often think about the upcoming new flu variant and how the US/UK is preparing to Quarantine 60 Million people for flu season.


Moby thinks the flu is worse than the coronavirus. Millions of Americans will get the flu this year. Same in China, Russia and many other countries yet we don't close borders and conduct business as usual. Nations have not been very verbal about what is going on but look at what they do, not what they say. China's neighbors have closed their borders. Flights in and out of China have been banned. Coronavirus is not just a people killer, it's an economy killer.

American CDC predicts a community outbreak of the virus is likely which means somebody infected is going to get through unchecked and spread it to a lot more people.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/community-spread-of-new-coronavirus-in-us-likely-cdc/ar-BBZUQt1?ocid=spartanntp

SC is in Asia and I'm NO more worried about her catching Covid-19


Is she vacationing in North Korea? They report zero infections and zero deaths.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 13, 2020, 03:06:20 AM
Where did he keep posting about face-masks?

Don't be as Silly as BillyB...

Try to check to whom a quote is addressing..)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 13, 2020, 03:15:36 AM
Moby thinks the flu is worse than the coronavirus.

Silly BullyB is making stuff up, AGAIN...

You really DO have a bad habit.


Stats for this virus are always behind reality and your quoting a state that is hardly honest about ANYTHING ...and keeps a close tab on folks venturing too far from the beaten track is risible.

How many people have died from the virus outside China...from nations that can be relied on to be trying to be accurate?

Last time *I* checked Thailand was an Asian country and perhaps you can tell us of the 'restrictions' the US has put on people returning from other Asian nations?


'Thank you'

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 13, 2020, 07:13:03 AM

Stats for this virus are always behind reality and your quoting a state that is hardly honest about ANYTHING ...and keeps a close tab on folks venturing too far from the beaten track is risible. 

That is even more reason to doubt whether China has this virulence under control. 

Quote
How many people have died from the virus outside China...from nations that can be relied on to be trying to be accurate?

On the time scale, other countries are behind  China.  Wait 3-4 weeks. 


It is more likely than not that the US will avoid an epidemic.   However, it is prudent and reasonable to assume some infected people entered the US undetected.  In 3-4 weeks we can be sure. 

Until then if I were travelling in emerging Asia I would be somewhat cautious (avoid crowds, wash hands frequently, never touch the face especially the nose, no raw food).  Yes, a mask is not needed except to protect others if one gets flu symptoms.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 13, 2020, 07:41:12 AM
That is even more reason to doubt whether China has this virulence under control. 


I was referring to North Korea ..;)   Worse than China re paranoia ?


On the time scale, other countries are behind  China.  Wait 3-4 weeks. 

Hardly - given western folks have been coming and going from the region of China most effected ( Christmas ./ New Year) when it is possible ( probable) that Chinese Officialdom were penalising  / berating those claiming there was a problem.

The virus was out earlier and given the 14 day incubation time being banded about ..



It is more likely than not that the US will avoid an epidemic.   However, it is prudent and reasonable to assume some infected people entered the US undetected.  In 3-4 weeks we can be sure. 


You assume the folks who may have already imported it show symptoms worthy of worry ... and are quarantined

Until then if I were travelling in emerging Asia I would be somewhat cautious (avoid crowds, wash hands frequently, never touch the face especially the nose, no raw food). 

Unless you grow your own food and live in the wilderness - that seems impossible ?





Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 13, 2020, 08:47:31 AM
How many people have died from the virus outside China...from nations that can be relied on to be trying to be accurate?


Each nation with citizens are putting their best doctors and scientists on the very few that are infected. They get the best care, immunity boosters, help with breathing and medicine to regulate temperature. The are doing their best to learn about the virus and keep the handful of people alive. Now if they let it get out of control and have 60,000 infected, not everybody will get the best medical staff, treatment, and drugs to beat the virus.

When someone gets a flu virus, they can beat it at home or visit a below average doctor in a small clinic to get told to get rest and get prescribed a few common drugs to regulate temperature and relieve symptoms. An average person with the flu doesn't need the best of the best to beat it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 13, 2020, 09:24:11 AM
Each nation with citizens are putting their best doctors and scientists on the very few that are infected. They get the best care, immunity boosters, help with breathing and medicine to regulate temperature. The are doing their best to learn about the virus and keep the handful of people alive. Now if they let it get out of control and have 60,000 infected, not everybody will get the best medical staff, treatment, and drugs to beat the virus.

Are you forbidden or advised NOT to visit Asian nations - other than China, yet  ? 



When someone gets a flu virus, they can beat it at home or visit a below average doctor in a small clinic to get told to get rest and get prescribed a few common drugs to regulate temperature and relieve symptoms. An average person with the flu doesn't need the best of the best to beat it.

Do you know the 'average' person needs help to survive Covind-19 ?  You DO realise some had it and did not realise they had it, right ?

Er, when someone gets the 'flu, now - they are MORE  likely to be the below average intellect sort running to  a competent Doctor - because of the fascination of this outbreak by the Tabloid reading Silly BillyB's  - despite the advice to stay at home..


Now, you are knocking some Doctors ?   Do you have many incompetent Doctors over there ... I somehow doubt it ...


Just stay indoors ... grow your own food and shun friends and neighbours with colds ..   Write bollox on the net ..  You'll be fine












Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 13, 2020, 10:35:17 AM

Due to public pressure based off poor government handling of the virus, China fired high level officials and replaced them. Although they increased the infected and death count by a huge jump with the new management's blessing, they're still lying.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/china-reports-spike-in-virus-cases-with-new-way-of-counting/ar-BBZWN53?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 13, 2020, 10:42:19 AM
Sighs

Nothing in BillyB's link suggests the Chinese are 'lying', now.

The spike...as clearly explained, is the criteria to confirm cases is looser and swifter.

Can BillyB advise if any western nation has banned travel to other Asian countries?....







Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 13, 2020, 11:22:12 AM
Nothing in BillyB's link suggests the Chinese are 'lying', now.


The Chinese don't suggest they lie yet the reason they give for the low numbers that were previously reported is because the old methods they've used to count were to blame. You can trust their new method to count infections and deaths if you want but I don't trust them. Apparently a lot of people died already and it was documented something else killed them but it's too late to go through their cremated ashes to do another autopsy.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 13, 2020, 02:25:35 PM
The Chinese don't suggest they lie yet the reason they give for the low numbers that were previously reported is because the old methods they've used to count were to blame. You can trust their new method to count infections and deaths if you want but I don't trust them. Apparently a lot of people died already and it was documented something else killed them but it's too late to go through their cremated ashes to do another autopsy.

I deal with Chinese people re designs, production, delivery and find them to be generally very efficient and organised...

The problem is the folk who run things like Communists do ...

Our stuff is taking a DAY longer than normal -  I don't know if we'll be delayed re any components that might come from effected areas ....

I posted about the spike and WHY it was occurring before you mentioned it - while you slept ... but thanks for the confirmation






Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 14, 2020, 08:07:03 PM

3 days ago the South China Morning Post suspected 500 medical workers are infected and a possible 600 more are infected.

http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3050077/least-500-wuhan-medical-staff-infected-coronavirus

Today, for the first time ever, China puts out a statement that over 1700 of their medical workers are infected. That number is worse than the rumors. Gross negligence of the management putting medical workers lives in jeopardy by not giving them the protective gear they need.

http://www.businessinsider.com/healthcare-workers-getting-coronavirus-500-infected-2020-2
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 15, 2020, 12:22:07 AM
Silly BillyB

You have this BAD habit of making assertions that you cannot know about - yet are also v.quick to tell others they shouldn't trust what they hear from untraceable sources ..

If this virus comes to the UK / US in serious numbers - do you think 'we' have enough 'hazsuits et al ' to cope for long ? Wasn't China asking for help with supplies?








Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 15, 2020, 09:18:24 AM
You have this BAD habit of making assertions that you cannot know about - yet are also v.quick to tell others they shouldn't trust what they hear from untraceable sources ..


We're dealing with a Communist country, not yours or mine. The level of trust in ones government varies. Do you trust North Korea they have ZERO infections? When Chinese people say the government stated infection and death rate were low, they were right after China put out an official statement a couple of days ago. When people say lots of medical workers don't have enough protective gear and are getting infected, they were more than right after China put out an official statement yesterday. Where were they wrong? China is still probably low with their estimates of those infected and dead.


If this virus comes to the UK / US in serious numbers - do you think 'we' have enough 'hazsuits et al ' to cope for long ?


Our Western doctors would evaluate a patient and sound an alarm without getting silenced and this virus won't infect in large numbers. Our hospitals have protocols for dealing with new, unknown viruses and diseases and will take appropriate action to protect the most important people to defeating it. Or they can risk massive lawsuits. Unfortunately the families of the medical workers sacrificed in China aren't as lucky in making their hospitals and government accountable.


Wasn't China asking for help with supplies?


Of course they asked for help and Western nations have given help. America pledged up to 100 million dollars in aid but China has refused the help of medical and scientific experts. That has led to Trump criticizing China. China does want to beat the virus but they will not allow people in who will tell the truth about what they seen.

http://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/482096-us-pledges-100-million-to-help-fight-coronavirus

When China dealt with the bird and swine flus, they killed millions of animals. When an outbreak happens, the FIRST thing you do is find the source and eliminate the source which will help with reducing numbers of infections and preventing the outbreak from happening again. China State news put out rumors the source was from a meat market. Has the government gone in and identified an animal that carried it yet and eliminated it's stock? NO. There has not been a single animal that was diagnosed as a carrier of this virus.

A few years ago, experts didn't like the idea of China creating a laboratory to house the worlds most deadliest diseases in Wuhan. They didn't think China would be able to stop the escape of a deadly virus based off knowledge of their construction and handling practices of those viruses. Has China put out a statement confirming the new coronavirus was never housed in their facility? Here's a 2017 article about the Wuhan lab.

http://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 15, 2020, 10:46:36 AM
Silly BillyB,

You 'respond' by taking any point and making it a question - without dealing WITH the point ..

Try dealing with the points made ... not making your own obfuscation and diversions


Did the Chinese request help? - medical supplies ....YES..


If this virus comes to the UK / US in serious numbers - do you think 'we' have enough 'hazsuits et al ' to cope for long ?   Given the UK already has a shortage of face masks for use in Dental practices  - IF our news is  to be believed  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51493492  I think you know - really - than the risks of getting the infection are GREATER for medical staff in China - it would be the same anywhere else..



I have NO idea about the source of the virus .. Do you know the 'source' of Ebola or HIV?  Do you understand virus' mutate ?

You are BIG in conspiracy theories ..  if you think the Chinese govt labs have unwittingly infected it's people .. I suspect that - even in China - it'll get out ..

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 15, 2020, 11:24:19 AM
Do you know the 'source' of Ebola or HIV?  Do you understand virus' mutate ?


Patient one of the Ebola virus was bitten by a bat. HIV is in primates. Education put out to stop eating them or whatever touching them sexually. It's important to find the source. China has not disclosed the source. Mutations don't matter. Scientist can figure out how the flu virus will mutate the next season to create a vaccine before it happens. They know how the virus was before and can predict how it will be in the future. Unfortunately they have not figured out a way to beat the coronavirus.

  if you think the Chinese govt labs have unwittingly infected it's people .. I suspect that - even in China - it'll get out ..

Infectious diseases laboratories are specially built to treat everything leaving it. That includes air and sewer so to make sure nothing deadly gets out alive. The most likely case is a worker unknowingly got the virus and took it outside the lab. The way the Chinese government protect their medical workers against a deadly virus may give us a clue how they handle things elsewhere.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 15, 2020, 02:14:24 PM

Unless you grow your own food and live in the wilderness - that seems impossible ?


Not impossible. This virulence is not yet under control.  We should know more in about 2-3 weeks. 
Until then, one does not need to wear a hazmat suit nor avoid people, yet simple precautions seem prudent if travelling in Asia. 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 15, 2020, 02:42:53 PM
Our Silly Billy's been a Googlin', and failing ...


Patient one of the Ebola virus was bitten by a bat.

INCORRECT

Scientists do not know where Ebola virus comes from. However, based on the nature of similar viruses, they believe the virus is animal-borne, with bats or nonhuman primates with bats or nonhuman primates (chimpanzees, apes, monkeys, etc.) being the most likely source.

Source? : 'Your' very own CDC


HIV is in primates.

CORRECT .. Again .. the CDC gives more info ..

So.. Only 50 percent ..


STILL with the wacko conspiracy theories ?

Infectious diseases laboratories are specially built to treat everything leaving it. That includes air and sewer so to make sure nothing deadly gets out alive. The most likely case is a worker unknowingly got the virus and took it outside the lab. The way the Chinese government protect their medical workers against a deadly virus may give us a clue how they handle things elsewhere.


You've been watching too many SciFi channel low budget movies ..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 15, 2020, 04:03:46 PM
Scientists do not know where Ebola virus comes from. However, based on the nature of similar viruses, they believe the virus is animal-borne, with bats or nonhuman primates with bats or nonhuman primates (chimpanzees, apes, monkeys, etc.) being the most likely source.

Source? : 'Your' very own CDC


The CDC doesn't know where the virus came from but they know it's in certain animals and they can pinpoint the animal responsible for the outbreak. the 2014 outbreak came from bats as the first patient was bitten by one according to the CDC. When an outbreak happens, it's important to identify the source to prevent more infections from happening.

http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/history/2014-2016-outbreak/index.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 16, 2020, 02:41:44 AM
The CDC doesn't know where the virus came from but they know it's in certain animals and they can pinpoint the animal responsible for the outbreak. the 2014 outbreak came from bats as the first patient was bitten by one according to the CDC. When an outbreak happens, it's important to identify the source to prevent more infections from happening.

http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/history/2014-2016-outbreak/index.html

Sighs..


The only 'batty' context is your failing to acknowledge you were wrong about Ebola...



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 17, 2020, 10:03:40 PM
China is getting very serious and now has 760 million people under quarantine.  This obviously will affect their economy.   Hopefully this draconian measure will stop the spread.   If not, the impact on the China economy will cascade to the global economy as supply chains are interrupted.   

China continues to report incomplete if not questionable data, meaning we have no scientific assessment of the trajectory of the endemic.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 17, 2020, 10:22:01 PM
760 million people under quarantine. 
   

That's one tenth the world's population under lockdown.

China continues to report incomplete if not questionable data, meaning we have no scientific assessment of the trajectory of the endemic.   


Your original John Hopkins link shows some Chinese provinces having around 500 recoveries and zero deaths. The death toll is under reported. We know how fast this virus can spread. 454 people are infected on a cruise ship after spending a short time together. That's over 10% of the passengers.

This obviously will affect their economy.   
   

It will affect our economy too. Movie industry expects to lose a billion dollars since nearly all of the 70,000 Chinese movie theaters are closed.

http://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/no-time-die-chinese-premiere-195232525.html

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 18, 2020, 12:46:53 AM
I deal with Chinese people re designs, production, delivery and find them to be generally very efficient and organised...

The problem is the folk who run things like Communists do ...

Our stuff is taking a DAY longer than normal -  I don't know if we'll be delayed re any components that might come from effected areas ....



The order for making our PCBs and putting on the components has been slower than normal - as have responses for quotes .

However, the stuff is on it's way - via DHL - but  - interestingly - flying out of Hong Kong - not Shenzhen


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 19, 2020, 10:17:49 PM
Wang Zhonglin, the Wuhan’s new Communist party secretary, said that if a single new case was found after Wednesday, the district’s leaders would be held responsible.

Sounds like China is going to make sure the infection rate goes down. Reporting bad news is bad news for the reporter.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2020/feb/19/coronavirus-outbreak-updates-coronavirus-live-updates-hubei-deaths-china-wuhan-outbreak-japan-diamond-princess-china-business-death-toll-latest-news
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 19, 2020, 10:51:11 PM
Sounds as if the Chinese and Russians have become rather desperate ..

From BillyB's  linked article :  ( PS - can you imagine - from a very 'leftie' UK journal - according to 'experts'..)

"Russia halted most air traffic to China, suspended all trains to China and North Korea, and temporarily stopped issuing work visas to Chinese citizens. Chinese students studying in Russia were told not to return until 1 March.

This month Russia’s prime minister, Mikhail Mishustin, said Russia might start deporting foreigners infected with the virus."


How very caring ...




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 20, 2020, 07:04:50 AM
For the second time in a week China has changed its protocol for determining new cases.  I have not read the details, yet it seems the government will now differentiate between “suspected” and “confirmed” cases.   Confirmed cases would require lab tests, for which China's capacity and accuracy are constrained.

So again, we are unsure of the the trajectory of the endemic, i. e., whether it is coming under control. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 20, 2020, 07:35:47 PM
"Russia halted most air traffic to China, suspended all trains to China and North Korea,


North Korea reports no infections yet Russia doesn't trust them. If there is one country this virus can get out of control, it's North Korea. North Korea probably depends on China for most of their medical supplies but China rather use what's available for their own people first.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on February 21, 2020, 12:45:37 PM
Now cases of new infections are coming from countries like Iran and United Arab Emirates...Even recent arrivals to Ukraine from China had even cause a small violent protest in the streets of Kyiv.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/hysteria-coronavirus-sparks-violent-protests-ukraine/story?id=69124337
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 21, 2020, 07:29:43 PM
More young medical professionals die. China's prisoners and prison guards infected. It's getting ugly.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/coronavirus-kills-young-wuhan-doctor-as-hundreds-infected-in-chinas-prisons/ar-BB10ebuj?ocid=spartanntp

In case of nuclear or natural disasters, China's leaders have a contingency plan to leave the country. US intelligence has picked up signals that there is talk of that could happen. China has finally allowed medical experts from WHO and America to help but they have been delayed and when they are allowed to enter China, they will not be allowed anywhere near Wuhan.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/with-information-from-china-scarce-us-spies-enlisted-to-track-coronavirus-173612656.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 21, 2020, 10:22:53 PM

Some believe this event can turn into a pandemic and 2/3rds of the world's population can get infected. Some people are carrying the virus for an extended period of time and not show any symptoms of illness as evident on the cruise ship. Without symptoms, they would not be quarantined past a certain amount of  days or at all and walk freely anywhere they want just as we do and while mingling with others, infect them.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/coronavirus-outbreak-edges-closer-to-pandemic/ar-BB10fJLZ?ocid=spartanntp

If you're into conspiracy theories, the doctor in the video in the link below has 3 Harvard degrees and many accomplishments and claims China stole a virus from a Canadian lab and took it to their lab in Wuhan. He doesn't believe China let the virus out intentionally though. He said bio warfare viruses are genetically modified to be stronger, live longer, infect easier, and harder to stop. Has China claimed they found the animal or group of animals that were carriers of this new coronavirus yet? If not, the guy may be right.

http://www.transcend.org/tms/2020/02/francis-boyle-wuhan-coronavirus-is-an-offensive-biological-warfare-weapon/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 22, 2020, 01:33:30 AM
Some of our members ARE into 'conspiracy theories'  ..

A question for them ...

Why 'manufacture' a virus with a low kill rate and no vaccine ?

How would you expect the Chinese to trace an animal source when other earlier viral epidemics haven't been traced back to 'ground zero' ?

Not many folks know that HIV may have been around nearly 200 years ..


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 22, 2020, 07:55:19 PM
Why 'manufacture' a virus with a low kill rate and no vaccine ?


Who told you the new coronavirus has a low kill rate? China?

Even if a biological weapons have a low kill rate, it's still an effective weapon. You do not understand warfare. Killing isn't the only way to take a soldier off the battlefield. Google "toe popper". It's a cheap land mine that isn't designed to kill but destroy a foot. When a soldier has his foot damaged, it takes at least two other soldiers to carry him back to camp which means at least three soldiers are out of the fight. If soldiers are getting the flu, they are in no shape to fight and will infect other soldiers to make them in no shape to fight.

Why no vaccine? If it's easy to create a vaccine, it's easy for the enemy to create a vaccine to defeat the biological weapon. Genetically modified biological weapons are designed not to be easily defeated.

How would you expect the Chinese to trace an animal source when other earlier viral epidemics haven't been traced back to 'ground zero' ?


Yes, animal meat was blamed. China says the source came from an illegal meat market yet they haven't identified the meat. Go figure. Stupid people believe them. China shut down the meat market. They can take all meat and check for the virus at the lab next door.

Not many folks know that HIV may have been around nearly 200 years ..


May? HIV has or hasn't been around for nearly 200 years. Saying "may" sounds like you and your source don't know the truth.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 22, 2020, 10:57:02 PM
Who told you the new coronavirus has a low kill rate? China?

How many people have died from the virus outside China - in comparison to those infected ? 

WHO data from 22nd Feb

Outside of China
1402 confirmed (202 new)
 28 countries (2 new)
 11 deaths (3 new)



So, are WHO 'making it up' ..?


Ri-ight, so now BillyB has demonstrated yet another of his contentions has been busted - rather than simply admitting his howler .. he compounds his stupidity





Even if a biological weapons have a low kill rate, it's still an effective weapon.

Only if you have a defence ( vaccine) or some way to ensure your own side don't get infected ...


You do not understand warfare.

You've already proven YOU do not understand biology, so you try to deflect with more bollox ? !


Killing isn't the only way to take a soldier off the battlefield. Google "toe popper". It's a cheap land mine that isn't designed to kill but destroy a foot. When a soldier has his foot damaged, it takes at least two other soldiers to carry him back to camp which means at least three soldiers are out of the fight. If soldiers are getting the flu, they are in no shape to fight and will infect other soldiers to make them in no shape to fight.


Nothing to do with COVID-19 - pure obfuscation ..


Now, Silly BillyB posts stupid about vaccines....bearing in mind the mutation capabilities of this type of virus ...hence it NOT being likely to be the type used as a bio weapon...

 



Why no vaccine? If it's easy to create a vaccine, it's easy for the enemy to create a vaccine to defeat the biological weapon. Genetically modified biological weapons are designed not to be easily defeated.

Yes, animal meat was blamed. China says the source came from an illegal meat market yet they haven't identified the meat. Go figure. Stupid people believe them. China shut down the meat market. They can take all meat and check for the virus at the lab next door.

May? HIV has or hasn't been around for nearly 200 years. Saying "may" sounds like you and your source don't know the truth.

Yes, may .. because no-one can be certain - as records / capabilities of medicine then did not allow fr accurate records ..

You see, BillyB, nothing in this field of biology is 'black and white' ..

You KEEP on proving what you're learning is from Google, rather than having studied biology to an advanced level ..



MAY BE China has inadvertently released this virus upon the population from a bio-weapon facility and isn't being truthful ... but we'd be hearing such a suggestion from Chinese dissidents and ex-pats, right ?







Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 22, 2020, 11:26:46 PM
How many people have died from the virus outside China - in comparison to those infected ? 
WHO date from 22nd Feb

Outside of China
1402 confirmed (202 new)
 28 countries (2 new)
 11 deaths (3 new)

So, are WHO 'making it up' ..?

John Hopkins has the data reported from each country and 17 people outside of China has died. 187 people outside of China have recovered. 1 out of every 11 people die or just over 9% of the people will die and these first cases have the best doctors and treatments available. If 70,000 people were infected, the best medical professionals and facilities would not be available to all infected. I do not count the infected cases into the fatality rate because it is unknown what side of the fence the infected will fall on at the end of their battle with the virus.

9% death rate is a lot worse than the common flu which has a .1% death rate. 1 out of 11 dying is a lot worse than 1 out of a 1000 dying. Do you understand the math and the reason WHO is now claiming this can turn into a pandemic? 

Now some Chinese provinces have over a 700 recovery rate with only 1 person dying while the Hubei province which includes the city of Wuhan has 6.5 people recovering for every person dying. 700 to 1 recovery to death ratio vs 6.5 to 1 recovery to death ratio means Chinese people in some provinces have super immunity systems compared to Chinese in other provinces or China is lying in some, most or all of their provinces reporting.

http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Only if you have a defence ( vaccine) or some way to ensure your own side don't get infected


Biological weapons get invented before any cure does. Does that not make sense to you? Nations who are into making biological weapons don't expect them to escape onto their own people so any time spent on making a cure comes later.


You've already proven YOU do not understand biology,

You see, BillyB, nothing in this field of biology is 'black and white' ..

You KEEP on proving what you're learning is from Google, rather than having studied biology to an advanced level ..


What biology expert in this world that you rely on that has got this coronavirus all figured out? Yourself? Because you are a carrier of a virus which makes you the expert on viruses?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 23, 2020, 01:52:36 AM
John Hopkins has the data reported from each country and 17 people outside of China has died. 187 people outside of China have recovered.

WHO 'data' - I put the parenthesis as the data is only as reliable as the source .. However, I see little reason to doubt the figures, overall

OUTSIDE CHINA:

Deaths v infected 11 / 1402  less than 1 percent


CHINA

2348 / 77794  3 percent


These figures are based over a long time and become more realistic with every day - in percentile terms )




As we can see below, Billy B needs to go back to school re his arithmetic..





 1 out of every 11 people die or just over 9% of the people will die and these first cases have the best doctors and treatments available. If 70,000 people were infected, the best medical professionals and facilities would not be available to all infected. I do not count the infected cases into the fatality rate because it is unknown what side of the fence the infected will fall on at the end of their battle with the virus.

9% death rate is a lot worse than the common flu which has a .1% death rate. 1 out of 11 dying is a lot worse than 1 out of a 1000 dying. Do you understand the math and the reason WHO is now claiming this can turn into a pandemic? 

Now some Chinese provinces have over a 700 recovery rate with only 1 person dying while the Hubei province which includes the city of Wuhan has 6.5 people recovering for every person dying. 700 to 1 recovery to death ratio vs 6.5 to 1 recovery to death ratio means Chinese people in some provinces have super immunity systems compared to Chinese in other provinces or China is lying in some, most or all of their provinces reporting.

http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Biological weapons get invented before any cure does. Does that not make sense to you? Nations who are into making biological weapons don't expect them to escape onto their own people so any time spent on making a cure comes later.


What biology expert in this world that you rely on that has got this coronavirus all figured out? Yourself? Because you are a carrier of a virus which makes you the expert on viruses?

Methinks you may be getting a little too upset to reason, anymore ..

MANY of us carry virus and infect people knowingly or unknowingly .. the subject here is COVID-19 and your wacko theories




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 23, 2020, 08:07:03 AM


OUTSIDE CHINA:

Deaths v infected 11 / 1402  less than 1 percent


CHINA

2348 / 77794  3 percent


These figures are based over a long time and become more realistic with every day - in percentile terms )


Apples and oranges.

Those who die did not die quickly, and instead succumb after a week or more from first becoming ill.   The cases of infection outside China are newer than Wuhan, and as such fewer deaths would be expected. 

Its complicated, many factors are at play, and its early.  Any conclusions are premature.  WHO is not making any conclusions about the trajectory of the virulence, much less fatality, etc.       
       
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 23, 2020, 10:04:48 AM

Deaths v infected 11 / 1402  less than 1 percent


CHINA

2348 / 77794  3 percent



Survival rate isn't deaths v infected, it's deaths v recovered. For some reason you and many journalists out there just lumped tens of thousands of people who are currently infected into the recovery camp and try to tell everybody it's not much worse than the common flu. It would be like me trying to lump all the infected into dead camp to show everybody how deadly this virus is. You don't know if those infected will remain alive or dead after their battle with the virus. I keep telling you that but you don't get it. If you currently are battling lung cancer, do you lump yourself into the lung cancer survivor category or the lump you into the group of people who lost the battle with lung cancer? You won't know until the battle is over. Over 77k people worldwide is infected with the virus but you already lumped them into the survivor category to fit your narrative that there is a high survival rate. Fake news.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 23, 2020, 10:23:43 AM
More Silly BillyB obfuscation ..


Survival rate isn't deaths v infected, it's deaths v recovered. For some reason you and many journalists out there just lumped tens of thousands of people who are currently infected into the recovery camp and try to tell everybody it's not much worse than the common flu. It would be like me trying to lump all the infected into dead camp to show everybody how deadly this virus is. You don't know if those infected will remain alive or dead after their battle with the virus. I keep telling you that but you don't get it. If you currently are battling lung cancer, do you lump yourself into the lung cancer survivor category or the lump you into the group of people who lost the battle with lung cancer? You won't know until the battle is over. Over 77k people worldwide is infected with the virus but you already lumped them into the survivor category to fit your narrative that there is a high survival rate. Fake news.

'Fake news' is what you've been suggesting re wacko theories as to the origin of the outbreak

How many days has WHO been publishing figures?

Is the death rate percentage constant? ... YES





Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 23, 2020, 05:03:45 PM
My wife and I are planning a travel holiday this spring.  I really like Hawaii,  yet I had this nagging concern that if COVID 19 continued to spread, Hawaii would likely become a "hot spot"  due to much of its tourism originating from Asia.  I would not fear becoming ill as much as getting caught up in travel bans and other quarantine measures.   

So we talked about Europe.  Today, I read the news,  "Italy says coronavirus cases spiked from three to 132 in matter of days; largest outbreak outside of Asia."  I understand travel restrictions are being considered. 

Our travel holiday planning is now on hold.  First time in my life this has happened.  Hopefully, the world's health organizations turn the corner soon on this serious virus.   If not, we will be hit far harder than travel restrictions  - namely the economy. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 23, 2020, 05:18:01 PM
My wife and I are planning a travel holiday this spring.  I really like Hawaii,  yet I had this nagging concern that if COVID 19 continued to spread, Hawaii would likely become a "hot spot"  due to much of its tourism originating from Asia.  I would not fear becoming ill as much as getting caught up in travel bans and other quarantine measures.   


Most Asians visit Honolulu and Waikiki. Go to a resort to avoid most Asians. For your vacation, choose a location that is hot. The virus doesn't survive very long when exposed to heat and sun so less chance for people living in hot climates to get infected. I just flew on airplanes a few weeks ago. Less than 5 people wore masks at each of the 4 different American airports I've walked through. At this time, you still have a better chance to win the lottery than get the virus in America.

Our travel holiday planning is now on hold.  First time in my life this has happened. 


Have you ever thought about vacationing in Florida? You get to stay home, avoid the virus elsewhere, and have your vacation too. Win win.


Hopefully, the world's health organizations turn the corner soon on this serious virus.   


WHO has been asking nations to step up their participation. WHO says not enough is being done. WHO doesn't want to criticize China but an expert said there is massive under reporting of deaths and infections in China. Why would China lock down hundreds of millions of people and shut down 90% of their economy to save a few lives? They are trying to save a lot more than a few lives.


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 24, 2020, 02:16:23 AM
Gator,

I'm off to Georgia, (Maxx' Georgia) and Turkey ..

The thought of being stuck out there is not comforting - but bus lif must go on ..

SC is in Thailand - and so far she is not threatened with being quarantined on her return

Your govt has been rather better in re-repatriating trapped guests on Cruise liners than - say - the Brits


You are a US Citizen .. You live in Florida - do you need a Beach holiday ?   What about Alaska ?;))




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 24, 2020, 06:50:58 AM

You are a US Citizen .. You live in Florida - do you need a Beach holiday ?   What about Alaska ?;))

Hawaii is more than beaches, much more. 

Living in Florida, more than an hour on the beach becomes tedious.  There is much to see in Florida; however, we have already seen it all including the off-the-beaten-path sites, e. g. Frank Lloyd Wright's one and only designed college campus and a rattlesnake festival (where tattoos outnumber teeth  :D).

Alaska is similar to Russia except for the coast.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 24, 2020, 06:59:46 AM
The outbreak in Italy has occurred in several small towns in the Milan area, but not in Milan itself.  Health officials have yet to identify "patient zero."   Inexplicable.  Worse, such pattern has the makings of a pandemic!!!!

RWD's Sandro resides in Milan.  We wish the best for him and his city-county neighbors.    Maybe Sandro has some info.  I understand Milan schools have been closed. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: SANDRO43 on February 24, 2020, 08:44:28 AM
RWD's Sandro resides in Milan.  We wish the best for him and his city-county neighbors.
Thanks for your concern, no alarms until a few days ago :(.
Quote
Maybe Sandro has some info.  I understand Milan schools have been closed
For a week initially as a precaution, also other places where many people congregate like cinemas, theatres, museums, discoes, etc. This is also our Carnival week, and the worst hit financially will be Venice.

IINM only 3 fatal victims so far, including a woman already in hospital for a cancer, but what is more worrying is that the number of infected people is on the rise (200+, blue pins below). All cases, except the the fatality near Padua at right, involved trips to China.

(http://www.ilpost.it/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/contagi-italia-1.png)

The most affected areas (red pins above) have been cordoned off, no access or departures allowed. Additional military barracks are being prepared to receive quarantined persons.

Superstition maintains that a leap year brings bad luck, let's hope it's not too true for 2020 :-\.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 24, 2020, 08:57:09 AM
All cases, except the the fatality near Padua at right, involved trips to China.

Thanks for the information.  Our news had not made the  connection with China travel.     


Wash those hands!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: SANDRO43 on February 24, 2020, 10:07:20 AM
Wash those hands!
I usually do :D.

Our bad luck was that 3 people went to a hospital complaining of breathing difficulties BEFORE anything was known about the Chinese epidemic. Most infected are from the staff and patients of those hospitals :(.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on February 24, 2020, 10:14:59 AM
Hawaii is more than beaches, much more. 

Living in Florida, more than an hour on the beach becomes tedious.  There is much to see in Florida; however, we have already seen it all including the off-the-beaten-path sites, e. g. Frank Lloyd Wright's one and only designed college campus and a rattlesnake festival (where tattoos outnumber teeth  :D).

Alaska is similar to Russia except for the coast.     

Phil, I can highly recommend to you the trip that Ochka and I took in May 2014.
We flew to Denver.  Rented a 28' RV from Cruise America for 28 days.
Drove to and visited, in order:
Colorado Springs, Santa Fe, Taos, (desolate drive across northern Arizona),Grand Canyon, Las Vegas, Los Angeles, Sequoia, Monterey, Santa Cruz, San Francisco, Lake Tahoe, (desolate drive across central Nevada on 50 and down 93), Zion Nat'l Park, Bryce Canyon, Capital Reef, Canyonland, Arches Nat'l Park, Golden, Denver.

The May timing meant we beat most of the heavy tourist season.  Was a little chilly in some place, and we hit LA when they experienced very unusual 100 degree temperatures for a few days.

The big advantage of this trip was that Ochka got to see more in 28 days than typically possible.
Disadvantage was we couldn't stay in any one place very long, even if we wanted to.
But of course, can always go back to a particular place later for a more extended visit.

A very big advantage for those of us of a certain age.  The toilet for peeing is always there.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 24, 2020, 10:23:56 AM

Our bad luck was that 3 people went to a hospital complaining of breathing difficulties BEFORE anything was known about the Chinese epidemic. Most infected are from the staff and patients of those hospitals :(.

Hospital or hospitals?  The latter would explain the wide spread, yet all within commuting distance of  hospitals. 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 24, 2020, 10:27:59 AM
ML, that was a heck of a trip.  It is like a lifetime of travel in 28 days.

Galina likes the West.  On four separate trips we have visited Colorado Rocky Mountains, Santa Fe, San Francisco and SoCal-LV.   

We were thinking about a long motor trip in the northern Rockies looking for a possible summer home.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on February 24, 2020, 10:50:06 AM
We were thinking about a long motor trip in the northern Rockies looking for a possible summer home.

Give some thought to northern Michigan for great summer living.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: SANDRO43 on February 24, 2020, 10:57:17 AM
Hospital or hospitals?  The latter would explain the wide spread, yet all within commuting distance of  hospitals.
2 hospitals, 1 in Milan and 1 south of it.

I went to my usual supermarket a couple of hours ago: crowded by too many people buying too much stuff, as if preparing for a long siege :(.  Maybe a panic reaction to the bad news this last Sunday.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 24, 2020, 04:26:17 PM
RWD's Sandro resides in Milan.  We wish the best for him and his city-county neighbors.   


Disaster has struck Milan. Nobody is allowed to attend the Armani fashion show but the show will go on.

http://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/milan-fashion-week-carries-amid-172557268.html

Some experts say to start buying food that can last up to a 60 day quarantine in case the virus comes to your neighborhood. Better to do it sooner than later when panic happens and food lines are long.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 24, 2020, 04:37:59 PM

Virus costing Americans trillions.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/stocks-down-as-coronavirus-spreads-in-europe-and-asia/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on February 24, 2020, 04:53:24 PM
We were thinking about a long motor trip in the northern Rockies looking for a possible summer home.

Give some thought to northern Michigan for great summer living.

Nah...look into Lake Tahoe on Nevada side instead.

http://www.visitrenotahoe.com/discover-reno-tahoe/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: SANDRO43 on February 24, 2020, 06:28:28 PM
Some experts say to start buying food that can last up to a 60 day quarantine in case the virus comes to your neighborhood. Better to do it sooner than later when panic happens and food lines are long.
I wonder who your "experts" are :-\.

Corona has an incubation period from initial contagion of about 2 weeks, which is also the current quarantine period. After that, one is either dismissed as several already have, or retained to prevent further spreading and monitor developments: there have also been many cases of infected people showing spontaneous remissions.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 24, 2020, 08:52:19 PM
I wonder who your "experts" are :-\.

Corona has an incubation period from initial contagion of about 2 weeks, which is also the current quarantine period. After that, one is either dismissed as several already have, or retained to prevent further spreading and monitor developments: there have also been many cases of infected people showing spontaneous remissions.

No need for experts, just common sense. People who are suspected or actually infected get quarantined by governments a minimum 30 days. If your entire city is quarantined, your city will be quarantined longer than 30 days. Those people infected or suspected of being infected aren't all going to be discovered at the same time and discharged at the same time at the end of 30 days with your city announcing it's free of the virus. After some people are found to be infected, two weeks later some the people they infected will be discovered and two weeks later more people will be discovered. Stocking your home with 60 days food is not unreasonable. Stock it with less, you'll be forced to go out more often to buy more food interacting with other people.

If you want an expert giving advice to stock up with 60 days food, here's one who has a PhD and expert on infectious diseases.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J028m1yjD70&feature=emb_logo
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on February 24, 2020, 10:04:32 PM
My wife and I are planning a travel holiday this spring.  I really like Hawaii,  yet I had this nagging concern that if COVID 19 continued to spread, Hawaii would likely become a "hot spot"  due to much of its tourism originating from Asia.  I would not fear becoming ill as much as getting caught up in travel bans and other quarantine measures.   

odd, id be ,ore concered about  illness than quarantine    there seems to be a genuine risk of illness popping up almost anywhere
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 24, 2020, 10:42:57 PM

South Korea reports 893 people infected. North Korea doesn't have anybody infected yet they are quarantining new visitors for 30 days. I suggest making your next vacation to North Korea, the safest place on earth because viruses and other bad things don't like to cross that border. Go cheap, schedule for a short visit and North Korea will upgrade you to a 30 day virus free vacation with free room and board.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/north-korea-reportedly-quarantines-380-foreigners-in-bid-to-prevent-coronavirus-outbreak/ar-BB10jFC7?ocid=spartanntp#image=BBZaM5o|3
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 25, 2020, 09:44:20 PM
The US has a limited capacity to test for COVID-19. 

"South Korea, the site of the worst outbreak outside of China, has run more than 35,000 coronavirus tests. The United States has tested just 426 people for the virus, not including people who have returned to the country on evacuation flights."

   http://www.jubakpicks.com/market-decides-coronavirus-outbreak-is-no-time-for-a-bounce/

Many of CDC test kits sent out 2 weeks ago contained expired chemicals and could not be used.  A new testing method is to be piloted later this week in 5 cities, yet CDC has not firmly committed to the time schedule. 

Meanwhile few people tested as having the flu can be tested for COVID-19. The symptoms manifested for COVID-19 mirror some symptoms of normal flu - fever, cough and breathing problems.  Unless the person recently traveled to China or had been in contact with an infected person, the COVID-test is not performed.     

We should expect the disease to spread more in the US.   Hence, the concern about the global economy and the US economy is real. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on February 25, 2020, 09:57:42 PM
it's a good thing Trump cut the CDC and NIH, you wouldn't want the deep state involved in any of this, now would ya?
buncha damned socialists, all these gummit people

it's actually going to be far worse than what you think

there's NEVER going to be a vaccine for this
there is no anti-viral that works on this, yet...

eventually, most of us are going to be infected
and 1-2% of us will die
and then...
the financial fallout is going to get steeper
the bond market will be next...
it could get as bad as 2007 later this year....

and I am SO relieved that we have the greatest president in the history of the universe now!!!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 25, 2020, 10:21:13 PM

the financial fallout is going to get steeper

Yes.  Not a time to buy the dips. 

Quote
the bond market will be next...

Ha Ha!  Bonds have increased in value, with the interest rate on the 10-yr bond the lowest in history. 


Quote
it could get as bad as 2007 later this year....

Nope, entirely different because unlike 2008 the financial system so far is not at risk.   

Monday's dip was not just about COVID-19 outside of China.  Monday started with the healthcare stocks taking a big hit because of Bernie's success in NV, creating the negative thought that he with his wacky ideas could  actually be elected.  If you want to see the stock market crash, elect Bernie. 

Today was continuation of COVID-19 selloff. Which stocks were hit the hardest - the overpriced momentum stocks.  They are coming back to earth. 
 

Quote
...and I am SO relieved that we have the greatest president in the history of the universe now!!!

Isn't it great.  Just G-R-E-A-T!!!!!!!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 25, 2020, 10:50:45 PM

eventually, most of us are going to be infected
and 1-2% of us will die


Italy reports they have 322 people infected. They report 11 people finished their battle with the virus. 1 person fully recovered. The other 10 died.

The cruise ship reports they currently have 691 people infected and 3 people finished their battle with the virus and all 3 died.

Iran reports they currently have 95 people infected and 16 people finished their battle with the virus and all 16 died.

South Korea reports they have 1146 people infected and 32 finished their battle with the virus. 22 made a full recovery and 10 died.

I don't trust Chinese reporting. Their numbers imply there are 10 recoveries for every one death. Almost 10% or 1 out of 11 people die from this virus according to China so far. In comparison 1 out of 1000 people die from the flu.

http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on February 26, 2020, 08:20:54 AM
This is nature sorting itself out and finding balance. It's been long overdue.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 26, 2020, 09:02:28 AM
This is nature sorting itself out and finding balance. It's been long overdue.

Natural selection?  Within the human species?  Or  humans vs. viruses?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on February 26, 2020, 09:54:09 AM
Natural selection?  Within the human species?  Or  humans vs. viruses?

Everything/one.

I am just often reminded that any 'being' in a given ecological environment have their owns means not only to propagate its kind, but also hold in check others from dominance. Always the persistence of balance. Virus and bacteria, as well as everything else - as studies have shown, mutate and evolve. Always that constant search for balance and preservation.

BTW, it isn't a coincidence that this latest virus, as with the recent few, originates from China. I'm sure during your travels in Asia and the southeast, you've laid witness to what is called - 'wet markets', snake alleys, etc..where all sort of caged live (indigenous) animals are on display/menu for the offering.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 26, 2020, 02:50:13 PM
This is nature sorting itself out and finding balance. It's been long overdue.

We may not be happy with the sorting out after it’s done. The very young and very old are most vulnerable due to weaker or underdeveloped lungs. Our parents and children are likely to die. A few thirtysomething-year-old Chinese doctors have already died. Apparently the virus doesn’t value intelligent people. Those who are physically superior with stronger immune systems such as dumb jocks may be the ones left standing.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on February 26, 2020, 06:13:26 PM
this is an RNA virus, this makes it very unlikely there will ever be a vaccine...
also no currently known anti-virals have been effective
AND...
this is a FAST mutating virus, after all this is just another variant of SARS
SARS was completely unknown to science just 20 yr ago...
what might this virus be like even 5 years from now?
odds are it will be even more deadly than it is today with the more generations that it breeds in a human population
also this means this virus is likely to be re-transmissible like a cold or flu
so if you survive it one year, you might still get next year's strain...
 

China's GDP is going to drop 10% this quarter, this will ripple around the globe
the bond market will be the next financial market to suffer a major drop but with more consequence that the stock market

we are at the beginning...
of when the world becomes a giant empty ghost town
you will hear it cracking before it breaks

pretty good chance that someone who reads this post
will get the virus in the next 5 years
maybe even most of us

good luck everybody!


 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 26, 2020, 08:59:33 PM
Italy reports they have 322 people infected. They report 11 people finished their battle with the virus. 1 person fully recovered. The other 10 died.

The cruise ship reports they currently have 691 people infected and 3 people finished their battle with the virus and all 3 died.

Iran reports they currently have 95 people infected and 16 people finished their battle with the virus and all 16 died.

South Korea reports they have 1146 people infected and 32 finished their battle with the virus. 22 made a full recovery and 10 died.

I don't trust Chinese reporting. Their numbers imply there are 10 recoveries for every one death. Almost 10% or 1 out of 11 people die from this virus according to China so far. In comparison 1 out of 1000 people die from the flu.

http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

BillyB

Are you simply trying to prove that you like to argue with yourself, with your 'stats' and 'mortality rates'?

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 26, 2020, 09:45:13 PM
BillyB

Are you simply trying to prove that you like to argue with yourself, with your 'stats' and 'mortality rates'?

I report the numbers the nations report. Not my stats. You're upset the numbers doesn't fit your narrative that this virus isn't much deadlier than the flu. China locked down 760 million people and 90% of their economy. China's neighbors completely closed their borders. Hello? Doesn't that tell you something? It's a good thing you're not in charge of a nation that is next door to China because you don't think what is going on is dangerous.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 26, 2020, 10:26:03 PM
this is an RNA virus, this makes it very unlikely there will ever be a vaccine...
also no currently known anti-virals have been effective


Sadly, you are probably right. This new coronavirus is similar to the viruses that cause the common cold but deadlier. There is no cure for the common cold although the human race tried hard to make one. If this new virus isn't beat, it may go around like the common cold forever and with higher rates of fatalities. SARS came from Civet cats and MERS came from camels. China says this virus came from a meat market yet they have not presented evidence of contaminated meat.

http://www.who.int/health-topics/coronavirus
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 26, 2020, 10:48:38 PM
I report the numbers the nations report. Not my stats. You're upset the numbers doesn't fit your narrative that this virus isn't much deadlier than the flu. China locked down 760 million people and 90% of their economy. China's neighbors completely closed their borders. Hello? Doesn't that tell you something? It's a good thing you're not in charge of a nation that is next door to China because you don't think what is going on is dangerous.


You 'report' numbers like others have then tell THEM that THEIR stats are 'fake news'.....

Your response  simply reinforced my observation...

There is enough data out there to show this virus has killed approx 1 percent..

That is FAR less that earlier SARS or MERS or Ebola.

Flu kills 100's of thousands..


Now the concern is could it spread so readily that medical services are stretched, resulting in deaths due to other illnesses not being treated.









Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 27, 2020, 06:25:29 AM
BAD SIGN -  INEXPLICABLE CASE IN CALIFORNIA

COVID confirmed for one person with "....no travel history to an affected area and no known contact with a person previously diagnosed with COVID-19."   This could be the start of community spreading. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on February 27, 2020, 07:16:02 AM
BAD SIGN -  INEXPLICABLE CASE IN CALIFORNIA

COVID confirmed for one person with "....no travel history to an affected area and no known contact with a person previously diagnosed with COVID-19."   This could be the start of community spreading.

She probably bought something on eBay, or from those internet roving merchants, and finally received shipment. I haven’t yet read if this virus is transmitted via touch, airborne, or other means.

There was a report of a Korean Airlines flight attendant that hubbed at LAX who was later found to be infected with the virus. There doesn’t seem to be a follow up report on this story.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on February 27, 2020, 08:13:47 AM
She probably bought something on eBay, or from those internet roving merchants, and finally received shipment. I haven’t yet read if this virus is transmitted via touch, airborne, or other means.
 
if it transmits through ebay we are going to be in deep trouble.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on February 27, 2020, 08:17:01 AM
Italy reports they have 322 people infected. They report 11 people finished their battle with the virus. 1 person fully recovered. The other 10 died.

The cruise ship reports they currently have 691 people infected and 3 people finished their battle with the virus and all 3 died.

Iran reports they currently have 95 people infected and 16 people finished their battle with the virus and all 16 died.

South Korea reports they have 1146 people infected and 32 finished their battle with the virus. 22 made a full recovery and 10 died.

I don't trust Chinese reporting. Their numbers imply there are 10 recoveries for every one death. Almost 10% or 1 out of 11 people die from this virus according to China so far. In comparison 1 out of 1000 people die from the flu.

http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
if your numbers are correctedly depicted then this is going to be very bsd.   it seems you are saying thta most people are still infected and it would seem many will be dead later...the way you characterize it is hardly anybody survives...if that is the cqse then in a few weeks 80k will be dead. we shall see
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on February 27, 2020, 10:28:16 AM
LMAO! Nanci Pelosi's city of San Francisco just declared a citywide state of emergency to apparently prepare the city in the event of an outbreak of COVID-19. As of today, there is no known case of the virus in the city.

So I'm thinking…increasing amount of homeless people, feces on sidewalks, likely spread of hepatis-B, crimes in open daylight, thousands of used needles in public walkways, etc...weren't enough to scare San Franciscan, but watching news on TV about the virus scares the beejeeesus out of these libs.

Isn't it enough there's been a hiked rash of violence against Asian folks in the city, that they actually have to add to more unwarranted scare and chaos?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 27, 2020, 10:53:42 AM
She probably bought something on eBay, or from those internet roving merchants, and finally received shipment. I haven’t yet read if this virus is transmitted via touch, airborne, or other means.

There was a report of a Korean Airlines flight attendant that hubbed at LAX who was later found to be infected with the virus. There doesn’t seem to be a follow up report on this story.



Viruses do not survive during the time taken to travel from China to the USA - even if on a  overnight service


Can I get coronavirus from mail and parcels from China or other affected areas?





There is currently no evidence that you can catch coronavirus from parcels and letters. Viruses like coronavirus cannot live for very long outside the body.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/common-questions/ (http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/common-questions/)




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on February 27, 2020, 11:12:10 AM
There currently is no definitive information on this virus transmissibility.

Quote
China's central bank is taking steps to deep clean and even destroy its cash out of fears that the new coronavirus can survive on the surface of money and potentially spread, according to CNN.

But how long can the new coronavirus linger on surfaces, anyway? The short answer is, we don't know. But if this new coronavirus resembles other human coronaviruses, such as its "cousins" that cause SARS and MERS, it can stay on surfaces —  such as metal, glass or plastic — for as long as nine days, according to a new study. (In comparison, flu viruses can last on surfaces for only about 48 hours.)

 http://www.livescience.com/how-long-coronavirus-last-surfaces.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 27, 2020, 11:38:46 AM
There currently is no definitive information on this virus transmissibility.

 http://www.livescience.com/how-long-coronavirus-last-surfaces.html

Me?

I prefer to rely on a micro-biologist, RU qualified MD  and retired surgeon ..  AND the NHS ..




 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on February 27, 2020, 02:10:11 PM
Me?

I prefer to rely on a micro-biologist, RU qualified MD  and retired surgeon ..  AND the NHS ..

Already been proven. 9 days give or take. Your NHS takes 4 hours for an emergency visit on a good day. That's before a pandemic. Pretty sure I know why you're hoping this is just a case of the sniffles. Certain Demographic, Prior condition. Poor Medical Service. I can be in an ER in 8 minutes if I call now and say I'm having heart issues. Wish you luck ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on February 27, 2020, 02:12:22 PM
the fundamental difference between the flu and covid-19 is its “virulence”
covid-19 is on average 20 times deadlier than the flu!
thus far, covid-19 hasn’t established a permanent foothold in the US of A....
but, it is growing increasingly likely that this invader will cross our border one day and kill our people...
yet, for some reason we spend several times more on the wall with Mexico
than preparing for this scenario....

So far, there have been an estimated 19 million cases of flu, 180,000 hospitalizations and 10,000 deaths in the U.S. this influenza season – including 68 children, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

we’ll have to wait a couple of years to see the future trend of covid-19 to extrapolate it’s future size relative to the flu, since this is kinda year one for us...
but if covid-19 ever reaches the infection level that influenza does, then we could lose 400,000 people a year from that point on from this disease just in the USA

we can see from the response from Italy, Japan, China, that once the number of covid-19 cases passes a certain threshold that a certain level of social and economic breakdown occurs...

so you better be prepared before and not after...

hospitals will be overflowing, then tent hospitals outside in the parking lot, then turn patients away....

grocery stores and pharmacies will be empty

a significant amount of the pain that will be inflicted on society will be economic
China is forecast to have a 10% drop in GDP for Q1 of this year...
this will ripple through the global economy as China starts importing less...
if this economic effect continues long term and is not temporary
then a lot of debt dominoes are gonna fall in the next couple of years...
major decline in all asset classes
a global pandemic will send shock waves through the world’s markets
even worse than the collapse of mortgage backed securities in the mid 2000s

AND in parallel with covid-19
the influenza rate in China has doubled in the last 5 years
these trends are spooking every marketplace in the world

http://www.statista.com/statistics/861143/influenza-incidence-rate-in-china/

my daughter snuck me into a closed briefing at Rice University by a team of  university virologists.  China just handed out the DNA sequence for the virus as well as cell culturing protocol to grow the virus, saving the global community a huge amount of research time...

BUT...
one word is all I’m a-gonna say....
 
Биопрепарат

both past and future

isolationism

what other horseman are approaching on the far horizon
for I see many...






 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 27, 2020, 02:57:23 PM
Already been proven. 9 days give or take. Your NHS takes 4 hours for an emergency visit on a good day. That's before a pandemic. Pretty sure I know why you're hoping this is just a case of the sniffles. Certain Demographic, Prior condition. Poor Medical Service. I can be in an ER in 8 minutes if I call now and say I'm having heart issues. Wish you luck ;)

'proven' ?  :wallbash:

1/ The NHS doesn't make folks wait to be treated until they can find someone to pay when ill...  as happened with my first wife on a trip to Florida in 1994 .. She was in agony with acute Sinusitis...   We had medical cover  - but until I paid for the insurance excess - no treatment would be forth-coming ...     


The NHS is under-funded and top heavy with managers ... the LAST thing it needs is 'help' from our cousins who don't think healthcare is a right.

2/ Just because there' BIG money involved in US healthcare in no way guarantees good care

3/ Your very own CDC seems o agree with the NHS, my micro-biologist , MD and retired surgeon..



Q: Am I at risk for COVID-19 from a package or products shipping from China?

A: There is still a lot that is unknown about the newly emerged COVID-19 and how it spreads. Two other coronaviruses have emerged previously to cause severe illness in people (MERS-CoV and SARS-CoV). The virus that causes COVID-19 is more genetically related to SARS-CoV than MERS-CoV, but both are betacoronaviruses with their origins in bats. While we don’t know for sure that this virus will behave the same way as SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV, we can use the information gained from both of these earlier coronaviruses to guide us. In general, because of poor survivability of these coronaviruses on surfaces, there is likely very low risk of spread from products or packaging that are shipped over a period of days or weeks at ambient temperatures. Coronaviruses are generally thought to be spread most often by respiratory droplets. Currently there is no evidence to support transmission of COVID-19 associated with imported goods and there have not been any cases of COVID-19 in the United States associated with imported goods. Information will be provided on the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) website as it becomes available.

http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/faq.html (http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/faq.html)



Pretty sure I know why you're hoping this is just a case of the sniffles. Certain Demographic, Prior condition. Poor Medical Service.

I'm CERTAIN you're clueless - PERIOD ..    :popcorn:


I can be in an ER in 8 minutes if I call now and say I'm having heart issues. Wish you luck ;)

Your  bizarre need to prove your daftness knows no bounds ... May be you've been listening to your President making a 'Richard' of himself re the virus and contradicting the CDC ?

If in the UK, I live a 20 minute plus drive from the nearest major hospital ...  I've never felt the need to live close to a hospital's Accident and Emergency ..

*I* could pick up the phone and a paramedic - one's normally on station near the motorway junction, nearby - would be home in less time than you need to be in the ER..  and guess what ?   No charge ..


The subject is COVID-19 and here's the World Health Organisation info on packages from overseas



Is it safe to receive a package from any area where COVID-19 has been reported?

Yes. The likelihood of an infected person contaminating commercial goods is low and the risk of catching the virus that causes COVID-19 from a package that has been moved, travelled, and exposed to different conditions and temperature is also low.











Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on February 27, 2020, 03:07:55 PM
'proven' ?  :wallbash:

1/ The NHS doesn't make folks wait to be treated until they can find someone to pay when ill...  as happened with my first wife on a trip to Florida in 1994 .. She was in agony with acute Sinusitis...   We had medical cover  - but until I paid for the insurance excess - no treatment would be forth-coming ...     


The NHS is under-funded and top heavy with managers ... the LAST thing it needs is 'help' from our cousins who don't think healthcare is a right.

2/ Just because there' BIG money involved in US healthcare in no way guarantees good care

3/ Your very own CDC seems o agree with the NHS, my micro-biologist , MD and retired surgeon..



Q: Am I at risk for COVID-19 from a package or products shipping from China?

A: There is still a lot that is unknown about the newly emerged COVID-19 and how it spreads. Two other coronaviruses have emerged previously to cause severe illness in people (MERS-CoV and SARS-CoV). The virus that causes COVID-19 is more genetically related to SARS-CoV than MERS-CoV, but both are betacoronaviruses with their origins in bats. While we don’t know for sure that this virus will behave the same way as SARS-CoV and MERS-CoV, we can use the information gained from both of these earlier coronaviruses to guide us. In general, because of poor survivability of these coronaviruses on surfaces, there is likely very low risk of spread from products or packaging that are shipped over a period of days or weeks at ambient temperatures. Coronaviruses are generally thought to be spread most often by respiratory droplets. Currently there is no evidence to support transmission of COVID-19 associated with imported goods and there have not been any cases of COVID-19 in the United States associated with imported goods. Information will be provided on the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID-19) website as it becomes available.

http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/faq.html (http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/faq.html)



I'm CERTAIN you're clueless - PERIOD ..    :popcorn:


Your  bizarre need to prove your daftness knows no bounds ... May be you've been listening to your President making a 'Richard' of himself re the virus and contradicting the CDC ?

If in the UK, I live a 20 minute plus drive from the nearest major hospital ...  I've never felt the need to live close to a hospital's Accident and Emergency ..

*I* could pick up the phone and a paramedic - one's normally on station near the motorway junction, nearby - would be home in less time than you need to be in the ER..  and guess what ?   No charge ..


The subject is COVID-19 and here's the World Health Organisation info on packages from overseas



Is it safe to receive a package from any area where COVID-19 has been reported?

Yes. The likelihood of an infected person contaminating commercial goods is low and the risk of catching the virus that causes COVID-19 from a package that has been moved, travelled, and exposed to different conditions and temperature is also low.





HAHAHAHAHAH, you are adorable. Touched a nerve their eh old man?

Anyways glad I got you to write out a book. Enjoy the good times to come. I wonder if COVID19 will have a better or worse impact on someone with a current Lung Disease?

http://www.bbc.com/news/health-51565492

Maybe if you'd had to wait the 6 hours to be seen at an equivalent NHS you could have shown them you had coverage and still had 4 hours to spare, Not that all Americans are in my Position, but my last Hospital Ride and ER stay, costed me a $100 copay, billed to my house 3 weeks later and paid with my Company paid HRA.

;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on February 27, 2020, 03:09:29 PM
3/ Your very own CDC seems o agree with the NHS, my micro-biologist , MD and retired surgeon..

CDC, hmmm..

In the case of the lone positive case of Covid-19 in California...

Quote
Upon admission, our team asked public health officials if this case could be COVID-19. We requested COVID-19 testing by the CDC, since neither Sacramento County nor the California Department of Public Health is doing testing for coronavirus at this time. Since the patient did not fit the existing CDC criteria for COVID-19, a test was not immediately administered. UC Davis Health does not control the testing process...

http://www.ucdavis.edu/news/coronavirus-patient-and-precautions-uc-davis-medical-center

...oh, and I'd like to add: "...low risk..." is still a *risk* just as 'almost dead is still alive'.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on February 27, 2020, 03:12:40 PM
I am worried about this as I have gall bladder surgery scheduled for 10th of March.

But if the virus starts to be treated in my local hospital before that . . . .

Gall bladder pain has been fairly  constant for past several days, but only around 2-3.

Was thinking about going to emergency room right now and tell them the pain is 9-10.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on February 27, 2020, 03:15:36 PM
I am worried about this as I have gall bladder surgery scheduled for 10th of March.

But if the virus starts to be treated in my local hospital before that . . . .

Gall bladder pain has been fairly  constant for past several days, but only around 2-3.

Was thinking about going to emergency room right now and tell them the pain is 9-10.

Might be a good time to do it now. Or if you opt for later, a Rural ER.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 27, 2020, 03:53:06 PM
if your numbers are correctedly depicted then this is going to be very bsd.   it seems you are saying thta most people are still infected and it would seem many will be dead later...the way you characterize it is hardly anybody survives...if that is the cqse then in a few weeks 80k will be dead. we shall see


I used numbers from some nations who have some of the worst survival rates. As I type this John Hopkins reports 36,063 people in the world finished a battle with the virus. 33,253 made a full recovery. 2810 died. I suspect a lot more dead since China underreports and some countries like N Korea isn't reporting at all but for arguments sake, lets say the numbers are true. That means 7.8 % of the people are dying from this virus. Mortality rate is extremely high. If everybody in this world got this virus once, 600 million people will die. But that is not the scary thing we need to worry about.....

Our bodies already experiences coronaviruses that cause the common cold. There is no cure/vaccine for the common cold viruses. There probably won't be a cure/vaccine ever discovered for 2019 - nCoV. We may have to live with this virus forever and if it maintains a 7.8% rate of death for those infected and we catch this virus ten times in our lives, there's a good chance most of us will die from it eventually. This virus must be eradicated from the human body and if it did come from an animal, those animals must be liquidated. If humanity fails to control this virus and we have to live with it everyday like we do the common cold viruses, our life expectancy will be significantly reduced. this deadly virus will also modify our behavior on many levels.

Governments don't want to send the public into a panic but billions are being designated to find a cure. Every lab capable of inventing a cure is at work. If any nation fails to control the virus, they will spend even more quarantining people, closing schools, other places of public gatherings, and closing even their economy in an effort to beat the virus just as China is doing now.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/256521#definition
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on February 27, 2020, 05:54:43 PM
then you'll have the ER co-pay...

I think you'' be OK to wait out the next 10 days
OTOH, if you go the ER route you'll get pain killers, at least 2.5 mg of morphine at a minimum
you'll be in the warm embrace of Morpheus
feelin fine
not a bad journey to take
before you walk through the valley of the shadow of death
happy visions only for you Pilgrim

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on February 27, 2020, 07:18:26 PM
Quote
...the Chinese scientists writing in The Lancet medical journal later revealed that the first patient known to have contracted the novel coronavirus had no link to the Wuhan seafood market (http://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/3047646/no-link-seafood-market-first-case-china-coronavirus-chinese) that the Chinese government pointed to as the source of the outbreak. This would suggest that the virus all along was spreading via human-to-human transmission – and that the government was lying to the public from the very beginning of this catastrophe.

http://thediplomat.com/2020/02/the-coronavirus-outbreak-how-democratic-taiwan-outperformed-authoritarian-china/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 27, 2020, 07:29:25 PM
Trump is probably going to force private companies that manufacture masks to focus on manufacturing 300 million masks to combat the virus. Goal is to get a mask for every American and change slogan for 2020 election campaign to Make America Virus Free Again.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/exclusive-us-mulls-using-sweeping-powers-to-ramp-up-production-of-coronavirus-protective-gear/ar-BB10u5ge?ocid=spartanntp

I like the mask below. $9 and it fits snuggly over the face. I see a lot of Chinese not wearing their fabric masks properly. That aluminum strip needs to be form fitted over the nose otherwise air can get around the mask. Also needed is eye protection since the virus can get in the eyes and infect.

http://fadtype.com/DANIU-6200-N95-Double-Gas-Mask-Protection-Filter-Chemical-Half-Face-Respirator-Mask-1175732

In my local news a school staffer takes an international vacation and one of the family members is getting tested for the virus and the high school the staffer works in is shut down so the entire campus can get disinfected. Taxpayers to staffer "We hope you enjoyed your f'ing vacation"

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/bothell-high-school-closed-thursday-in-an-abundance-of-caution-over-coronavirus-fears-after-staffer-traveled-internationally/

South Korea is currently experiencing a virus explosion with over 2000 infected now but Canadian researchers estimate Iran has over 18,000 infected and are underreporting since they claim only 245 of their citizens are infected. Iran's deputy Health Minister said quarantines were a “Stone Age” way to address the problem, and Iran doesn’t need them. Later that evening he tested positive for the virus and then used a Stone Age solution quarantining himself for a modern day problem.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/iran-t-hide-coronavirus-explosion-102629171.html

Iran's Vice President has tested positive for the virus. Like China, Iran is probably underreporting and nations neighboring Iran are shutting down borders. Russia is restricting all flights from Iran. There is good news coming out of Iran since there's less commercial planes available for them to shoot down. Tourism to Iran is going to take a dive and the economy will take a hit. North Korea better keep quiet about it's virus problems otherwise they will lose tourists too.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/irans-vice-president-tests-positive-for-coronavirus/ar-BB10u33i?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on February 27, 2020, 07:37:44 PM
Why Diet Coke may be in shorter supply due to the spread of coronavirus               Feb 27 2020  (http://www.today.com/) Alyssa Newcomb
Quote
This week, The Coca-Cola Co. announced that it is experiencing both production and export issues of Diet Coke and other low-calorie drinks from China, which been ground zero for the outbreak.
On Monday, Coca-Cola warned investors that its supply chain for an artificial sweetener and "certain other ingredients" sourced in China had been disrupted as a result of the outbreak, which has now killed more than 2,000 people around the world.
http://www.aol.com/article/finance/2020/02/27/why-diet-coke-may-be-in-shorter-supply-due-to-the-spread-of-coronavirus/23935688/

So it's back to regular Coke?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on February 27, 2020, 07:53:58 PM
R0 is pronounced “R naught.” It’s a mathematical term that indicates how contagious an infectious disease is. It’s also referred to as the reproduction number. As an infection spreads to new people, it reproduces itself.

R0 tells you the average number of people who will catch a disease from one contagious person. It specifically applies to a population of people who were previously free of infection and haven’t been vaccinated. If a disease has an R0 of 3, a person who has the disease will transmit it to an average of 3 other people, as long as no one has been vaccinated against it or is already immune to it in their community.

The R0 for novel influenza A (H1N1) has been estimated to be between 1.4 and 1.6.
for the current strains of covid-19 it’s estimated to be about 2.28!!!

the problem with this number is we don’t currently know the reinfection rate, since normally people who survived a virus infection would be immune from reinfection, but NOT with this virus...
but reinfection has been verified in as soon as a month after the first initial infection
this implies a HUGE mutation rate for this virus!
this makes it more likely to turn REALLY deadly sometime in the future!

overall, the virus as it currently is, will if it catches fire here
end up infecting more people than the flu, and will kill FAR MANY more
if this catches fire here, then within 10 years I’d expect to see 200,000 deaths each and every year in the USA from the current version of the virus
AND there is a strong possibility multiple versions of the virus will recombine in the host, creating a much more lethal virus

besides the death toll, which will primarily be on older people, but not exclusively
there will be HUGE social changes
air travel as we currently enjoy, will come to an end

there will be a huge global economic depression
followed by wars and famine

and if you look at what else virology related is happening in china,
the influenza rate has climbed 50% in the last 5 years
at the same time as SARS and covid-19

two different strains of other kinds of virus in this category have been known to recombine when they both infect a host at the same time creating a hyper-virulent strain
this is what the “Spanish Flu” was which killed 500,000 Americans in less than 6 months
in 1918-1919 by a poultry influenza strain that recombined with a human strain

sweet dreams everyone!

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on February 27, 2020, 08:04:15 PM
Trump is probably going to force private companies that manufacture masks to focus on manufacturing 300 million masks to combat the virus. Goal is to get a mask for every American and change slogan for 2020 election campaign to Make America Virus Free Again.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/exclusive-us-mulls-using-sweeping-powers-to-ramp-up-production-of-coronavirus-protective-gear/ar-BB10u5ge?ocid=spartanntp

I like the mask below. $9 and it fits snuggly over the face. I see a lot of Chinese not wearing their fabric masks properly. That aluminum strip needs to be form fitted over the nose otherwise air can get around the mask. Also needed is eye protection since the virus can get in the eyes and infect.

http://fadtype.com/DANIU-6200-N95-Double-Gas-Mask-Protection-Filter-Chemical-Half-Face-Respirator-Mask-1175732

I did a lot of airbrushing and painting metal especially when I had my '72 Nova so I still have a 3M 7500 half mask In the garage. I think Even a few unused filters. Wonder if they last for more than 5 years if I end up needing to use it :P



South Korea is currently experiencing a virus explosion with over 2000 infected now but Canadian researchers estimate Iran has over 18,000 infected and are underreporting since they claim only 245 of their citizens are infected. Iran's deputy Health Minister said quarantines were a “Stone Age” way to address the problem, and Iran doesn’t need them. Later that evening he tested positive for the virus and then used a Stone Age solution quarantining himself for a modern day problem.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/iran-t-hide-coronavirus-explosion-102629171.html

Iran's Vice President has tested positive for the virus. Like China, Iran is probably underreporting and nations neighboring Iran are shutting down borders. Russia is restricting all flights from Iran. There is good news coming out of Iran since there's less commercial planes available for them to shoot down. Tourism to Iran is going to take a dive and the economy will take a hit. North Korea better keep quiet about it's virus problems otherwise they will lose tourists too.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/irans-vice-president-tests-positive-for-coronavirus/ar-BB10u33i?ocid=spartanntp

Did you watch the video with that Deputy Health Minister wiping his face constantly? Seemed like something you'd see from a Plague or Zombie movie, then later that day announces he has it too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-VuRK8L1kg
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on February 27, 2020, 08:58:39 PM
Pope Francis coughing a day after expressing 'closeness' to coronavirus victims  by Nicholas Rowan (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/author/nicholas-rowan)    | February 27, 2020 11:32 AM
Quote
Pope Francis was seen coughing a day after expressing his "closeness" to coronavirus victims in Italy.
"I wish, again, to express my closeness to those who are ill with coronavirus and to healthcare workers who are caring for them," Francis said during a general audience in St. Peter's Square before Ash Wednesday mass. The comment was prompted by the presence of several people in the audience wearing protective masks, according to (http://www.romereports.com/en/2020/02/26/pope-francis-sends-message-to-people-infected-with-coronavirus/) Rome Reports.
The Vatican reported that Francis developed a "slight indisposition" on Thursday and that he canceled a planned mass at St. John Lateran Basilica. The nature of the pope's illness was not specified.
Although Italy has become center for coronavirus outbreaks in Europe, with more than 440 cases reported, Rome has been largely free of illness. Only three cases have been reported in Rome, and all have recovered, according to (http://nypost.com/2020/02/27/pope-francis-sick-a-day-after-supporting-coronavirus-sufferers/) the New York Post. Globally, over 80,000 cases have been reported.
Francis forewent (http://apnews.com/19233731504e19355613706cd4e4d380) the precautions that many other Catholic churches took in celebrating Ash Wednesday. As he rode through the square, the pope kissed the forehead of a child and shook the hands of many people gathered in the audience, a departure from his usual wave.
Meanwhile, in Venice, Ash Wednesday mass at St. Mark's Basilica was canceled after several people in the city tested positive for the virus. 
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/pope-francis-coughing-a-day-after-expressing-closeness-to-coronavirus-victims
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 27, 2020, 09:29:43 PM
Did you watch the video with that Deputy Health Minister wiping his face constantly? Seemed like something you'd see from a Plague or Zombie movie, then later that day announces he has it too.


Just watched it. Guy acting strange, sweating constantly, wiping his nose and sweat off the face while telling everybody there's nothing to fear, they have it under control and denied Tehran is hiding how bad the virus spread. Thing is he probably infected half the people in the room, especially the guy next to him who may be the Health Minister. Time to apply Stone Age solutions quarantining everybody in that room for 30 days. On the bright side, Iranians are used to having their movements restricted so no major inconvenience to them and the government has a valid reason to lock people up which will reduce protesting.

Japan is closing all schools till late March. If they don't get the virus under control, they may close everything for a longer period of time.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/japan-to-close-schools-nationwide-to-control-spread-of-virus/ar-BB10sOUw?ocid=spartanntp

I'm going to start buying some masks and foods with a long shelf life before the lines get long and the stores get empty. If America gets an outbreak like some of those countries, people going to panic. This virus is going to impact a lot of lives around the world. Even if many don't get the virus, they may be out of a job if business close and their whole city gets locked down. More information a person gets the better. This thread should be moved to odds and ends where lurkers can read it. Being in Anything goes, only the few member who signed in can read it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on February 27, 2020, 09:56:37 PM
I am worried about this as I have gall bladder surgery scheduled for 10th of March.

But if the virus starts to be treated in my local hospital before that . . . .

Gall bladder pain has been fairly  constant for past several days, but only around 2-3.

Was thinking about going to emergency room right now and tell them the pain is 9-10.
tough spot you may be in.     i just got opened up and feel real bad and unabl to do much but hopeufully will get better stronger before and if this virus starts to go 'viral'.  personally if i were you i'd rathr get it behind me sooner rather than in 2 weeks.   my hope is billyb's analsysis is flawed but i'm open to it being possible and i think we are one outbreak away from empty shelves and major disruptions.  if you are infirm during a crisis it would be doubley disturbing...  yeah maybe fill up your kitchen and extra tanks of gasoline, doubt you would need it but why not?   gall bladder does help with immune system if i remmber right so that aint' good eitehr.   good luck
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 27, 2020, 10:06:51 PM
I used numbers from some nations who have some of the worst survival rates. As I type this John Hopkins reports 36,063 people in the world finished a battle with the virus. 33,253 made a full recovery. 2810 died. I suspect a lot more dead since China underreports and some countries like N Korea isn't reporting at all but for arguments sake, lets say the numbers are true. That means 7.8 % of the people are dying from this virus. Mortality rate is extremely high. If everybody in this world got this virus once, 600 million people will die. But that is not the scary thing we need to worry about.....

Our bodies already experiences coronaviruses that cause the common cold. There is no cure/vaccine for the common cold viruses. There probably won't be a cure/vaccine ever discovered for 2019 - nCoV. We may have to live with this virus forever and if it maintains a 7.8% rate of death for those infected and we catch this virus ten times in our lives, there's a good chance most of us will die from it eventually. This virus must be eradicated from the human body and if it did come from an animal, those animals must be liquidated. If humanity fails to control this virus and we have to live with it everyday like we do the common cold viruses, our life expectancy will be significantly reduced. this deadly virus will also modify our behavior on many levels.

Governments don't want to send the public into a panic but billions are being designated to find a cure. Every lab capable of inventing a cure is at work. If any nation fails to control the virus, they will spend even more quarantining people, closing schools, other places of public gatherings, and closing even their economy in an effort to beat the virus just as China is doing now.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/256521#definition


BillyB

Have you self-isolated yourself -locked yourself away from physical contact with humanity based on your Armageddon wacko theories ?

In the meantime ..

 1/ most masks are STILL useless in preventing catching the virus - if you knew you HAD the virus - they might prevent one spreading it .. if you changed the mask as soon as it was damp

2/ COVID-19 is a constantly mutating virus and those speaking of vaccines are talking out of their ..it's already been seen how one infected person, who infects another has a different strain


Your posts are akin to construction worker being put in charge of a micro-biology institute and making 'policy' ..


3/ How will any nation 'control' the virus ..? 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 27, 2020, 10:48:53 PM

 1/ most masks are STILL useless in preventing catching the virus -



Good thing you've been put in charge of nothing.

Masks can't stop a virus but masks stop airborne particles such as droplets from a sneeze the virus rides on. Maybe you believe people just sneeze out viruses all by themselves? A mask will stop most droplets if someone sneezes or coughs wearing one.

An N95 mask stops 95% of airborne particles if worn properly. Higher the number the better. Also, don't buy Chinese because they false advertise.

Moby, out of everybody on this forum, I predict you're the first one to get the coronavirus. While everybody is wearing masks, you'll be running around without a mask telling people masks are useless and the virus isn't anymore dangerous than the flu virus. People out there will look at you like this forum looks at you.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on February 27, 2020, 11:43:13 PM

BillyB

Have you self-isolated yourself -locked yourself away from physical contact with humanity based on your Armageddon wacko theories ?

In the meantime ..

 1/ most masks are STILL useless in preventing catching the virus - if you knew you HAD the virus - they might prevent one spreading it .. if you changed the mask as soon as it was damp

2/ COVID-19 is a constantly mutating virus and those speaking of vaccines are talking out of their ..it's already been seen how one infected person, who infects another has a different strain


Your posts are akin to construction worker being put in charge of a micro-biology institute and making 'policy' ..


3/ How will any nation 'control' the virus ..?


This is glorious! The guy most proved wrong in his own domestic politics, Foreign politics, earlier in this very thread for  the virus being gone in a week, add in a failure of a plan going to Georgia without backup cash. I mean we could keep going but I dont think I have to  :deadhorse: .

God bud, you are a riot. Even statistically by this point you should have landed on something right. The old saying a clock is right twice a day doesn't apply here.  XD

But please don't take this laugh at your expense to mean you shouldn't  stop posting. On the contrary post more, please. :popcorn: :popcorn:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on February 28, 2020, 07:09:39 AM
CDC, hmmm..

In the case of the lone positive case of Covid-19 in California...

http://www.ucdavis.edu/news/coronavirus-patient-and-precautions-uc-davis-medical-center

...oh, and I'd like to add: "...low risk..." is still a *risk* just as 'almost dead is still alive'.

Sure enough, and just like that, it went from a lone positive case in California to 33 confirmed cases in just one day with active monitoring of 8,000 more. So the silly CDC hurried to change their silly criteria on testing protocol.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on February 28, 2020, 07:31:50 AM
Sure enough, and just like that, it went from a lone positive case in California to 33 confirmed cases in just one day with active monitoring of 8,000 more. So the silly CDC hurried to change their silly criteria on testing protocol.
seems like big news and that is somewhat buried...or what?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on February 28, 2020, 08:09:34 AM
the masks are to show the public that you're trying not to be a virus spreader...
back when we had the bird flu in Crimea
if you rode a marshrutka and someone had a bad cough or sneeze and DIDN'T have a mask on
EVERYONE else got pissed at them and would verbally harass and abuse them!!!
ohhh the Russian curses I heard, the mattest mat EVER!!!!
it was brilliant language, I could actually see the TRUE Russian soul!
which is kinda scary to me!

because at the bottom of the Russian soul is all about how each person deals with their PTSD!
eta moy pravda



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on February 28, 2020, 08:27:40 AM
Good thing you've been put in charge of nothing.
                                                              (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/cheesy.gif)
Quote
Masks can't stop a virus but masks stop airborne particles such as droplets from a sneeze the virus rides on. Maybe you believe people just sneeze out viruses all by themselves? A mask will stop most droplets if someone sneezes or coughs wearing one.
Back in July 2018 I bought a pk of 50 surgical masks for 9.99 on ebay.
We used them for dust masks when we mowed the yard.
We used up only 3 or 4. Go price them now [if you can find them]
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on February 28, 2020, 09:48:49 AM
seems like big news and that is somewhat buried...or what?

I'm sure it's to tone down the public and not create undue over-reaction, or worst, panic. The sick lady had apparently turned for the worst today. They are still trying to determine exactly how she got the virus since she didn't meet CDC's test criteria as a likely patient with COVID-19, so they decided not to test her for it. She went on as though she had the common flu and was not immediately quarantined.

Even to this moment, they keep saying and using the term *low risk*. It went from one infected to 33 to 8,000+ under observation overnight - yet it's low risk to the community at large. The city of San Francisco declared a state of emergency yesterday....so....

Go figure.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 28, 2020, 10:02:55 AM

I understand the government's reasoning for not creating panic. They don't want people emptying shelves and running each other over to get the last few remaining items. Best to buy a few things now just in case the virus gets out of control in one's city. I don't trust China and a few nations reporting on infections and deaths. This virus is highly contagious and it's killing more people than they let on. The mortality rate on flu and the common cold viruses are acceptable. The mortality rate on this virus is not. It must be defeated and to do so will disrupt many people's lives. If a city is quarantined, businesses will close, people will be unemployed and group gatherings and education will come to a halt.

I will be prepared but I don't expect this to get out of control in my city although we have a large Chinese population here. As long as idiots to not take vacations overseas, especially to China, America should be fine as we wait for other nations to get their epidemics under control and defeat the virus. Could take years though.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on February 28, 2020, 10:23:03 AM
it's kinda interesting to see individual stories of how people are coping in Wuhan...
it seems the strategy I worked out is a pretty common one there
you have one person be responsible for access to the outside world
and this person minimizes contact by isolation from the rest of his family
but is able to provide supplies to them...

an extension of this would be if you got a group of individual families
who cooperated, and one member from each family had this position each month
then the odds of an individual getting the virus would be 1/12 (even better if your neighbors get the peak months and not you)
survival math

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 28, 2020, 12:07:05 PM
The Moby crowd start writing articles.

You mean people that actually travel abroad and have seen this ignorance with their own eyes, Beel ?

I 'fear' folks who've been in N.Italy more than China ;)





 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 28, 2020, 01:47:16 PM
.... so they decided not to test her for it. She went on as though she had the common flu and was not immediately quarantined.

From the info I have, it seems health agencies were rationing the specific COVID-19 tests to those known to have come in contact with China travelers or known infected patients.   

Explanations for rationing:

            -  Test kits were in limited supply because most kits that had been shipped earlier had expired reagents.
            -  CDC limited the number of laboratories authorized to conduct the tests.

These screw-ups should not happen.   More will be forthcoming on this issue.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on February 28, 2020, 03:58:14 PM
From the info I have, it seems health agencies were rationing the specific COVID-19 tests to those known to have come in contact with China travelers or known infected patients.   

Explanations for rationing:

            -  Test kits were in limited supply because most kits that had been shipped earlier had expired reagents.
            -  CDC limited the number of laboratories authorized to conduct the tests.

These screw-ups should not happen.   More will be forthcoming on this issue.

In this particular case, CDC decided NOT to test the woman because she didn't meet CDC's qualifying criteria for testing. Which were, she didn't have a history of travel or didn't have contact with anyone who was infected. Consequently, she was tested 4 days later and the result came out positive for Covid-19. She exposed folks for 4 additional days as a result.

  http://khn.org/news/new-california-coronavirus-case-reveals-problems-with-testing-protocols/

Other non-mainstream media reported that CDC broke away from global ranks in their attempt to establish a more comprehensive, complicated test that would identify a more varied range of similar viruses. The result turned out to be flawed, and consequently lost valuable time.*

http://www.propublica.org/article/cdc-coronavirus-covid-19-test

*Whether or not this is true, I do not know. There's so much red tape with these things that it's almost impossible to find where the truth lies, sadly enough.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on February 28, 2020, 04:08:16 PM
Currently there is some concern that the virus could be polyphasic. Meaning you get the virus, get well, virus lies dormant, layer you get it again. Similar to Anthrax. Japan just had it's second case.

http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2020/02/28/world/asia/28reuters-china-health-reinfection-explainer.html

There's also a troubling video showing an American who got the virus on the cruise ship, 2 weeks later was cleared, then on Fox is seen coughing quite a bit, somewhat sweaty sharing a water bottle with his daughter.

http://youtu.be/z5PXh4U8CJs

None of this has been confirmed of course but it is speculation for now.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on February 28, 2020, 06:39:33 PM
Currently there is some concern that the virus could be polyphasic. Meaning you get the virus, get well, virus lies dormant, layer you get it again. Similar to Anthrax. Japan just had it's second case.

the more I read the nastier this virus seems to be which is concerning.   keep getting the same virus over again until it overwhelms the immune system and takes a person out.  some people eliminated after one round others 2, 3 or 5 rounds.  what a horrible thought. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 28, 2020, 06:59:35 PM
Currently there is some concern that the virus could be polyphasic. Meaning you get the virus, get well, virus lies dormant, layer you get it again. Similar to Anthrax. Japan just had it's second case.


2109 - nCoV is similar to cold viruses which are also coronaviruses but a lot deadlier. No cure for the cold but our body will produce antibodies and eventually beat the virus. There probably won't be a cure ever invented for this virus. Chances of getting infected with a cold virus again after getting a cold is minimal since antibodies will remain present in our bodies after a battle with a cold virus but we can easily catch a cold again after the antibodies diminish which takes a few months.

the more I read the nastier this virus seems to be which is concerning.   keep getting the same virus over again until it overwhelms the immune system and takes a person out.  some people eliminated after one round others 2, 3 or 5 rounds.  what a horrible thought. 


How many times in your life did you catch a cold? This virus is more contagious and deadlier. If it ends up having an 8% mortality rate and you catch it a number of times in your life, chances are you will die from it eventually. Highly likely people you know and family will die from it. That is why it needs to be defeated and there is great costs to do so. Blame China.

When this virus was discovered in Wuhan in late 2019, China hid it from the public and it exploded on their people yet they continued with business as usual. Two days before Wuhan, with the Communist party's blessing, told the world about the outbreak, they advertised a potluck for citizens and got more than 40,000 families together in one spot to eat in hopes they'd break a world record. The same day they announced the outbreak, the city also advertised they're giving away 200,000 free tickets to attend the city's new year celebration! Very irresponsible of the government to sponsor large groups of people together TWICE knowing there is an unknown and uncontrollable virus that has affected some of their citizens. So there will be great cost in lives and disruption of lives. There will be a huge financial cost to everybody in the world. Already our government has offered hundreds of millions to help China and designated billions to prepare for a defense against the virus in hopes it won't become an epidemic here. Since you invested in stocks, I'm sure you've taken a hit.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on February 28, 2020, 07:05:01 PM

There's also a troubling video showing an American who got the virus on the cruise ship, 2 weeks later was cleared, then on Fox is seen coughing quite a bit, somewhat sweaty sharing a water bottle with his daughter.

Reminds me of Spanish flu during WWI.

One soldier in hospital told he was given one thermometer, and told to take and record temps of all the guys in the ward.  He just wiped on his shirt between mouths.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 28, 2020, 07:45:34 PM
Currently there is some concern that the virus could be polyphasic. Meaning you get the virus, get well, virus lies dormant, layer you get it again. Similar to Anthrax. Japan just had it's second case.

OMG..


Similar to Anthrax' ...?

A Virus is 'similar' to a Bacteria, now..?





 :wallbash:




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 28, 2020, 10:41:31 PM
"Maximum discipline", "Absolute Obedience" and loud speakers are being used to keep the virus from crossing the North Korean border. The whole country is under quarantine. Nobody in, nobody out. The people know the drill. They are no strangers to being locked down. In the photo everybody wears a mask except fearless Kim Jong Un who radiates strength and invincibility to his people. South Korea with over 2000 infected should use some of North Korea's methods of prevention.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/kim-warns-serious-consequences-virus-reaches-north-korea-005947594.html

Less than an hour from where I live, two more cases of infections showed up. One is a lady who just came back from South Korea and the other is a teen who did not travel. Who did he catch it from? Those two people live in different counties and if they didn't interact with each other, the teen probably acquired it from another infected person roaming the streets freely undetected. If this thing explodes in my area, I'll have to try maximum discipline and absolute obedience to see if it works.

http://tinyurl.com/vn2uj6v
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on February 28, 2020, 10:58:04 PM
Reminds me of Spanish flu during WWI.
Wow! M L .....Just how old are you bud?
Quote
The 1918 influenza pandemic (January 1918 – December 1920; colloquially (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colloquialism) known as Spanish flu) was an unusually deadly influenza pandemic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_pandemic), the first of the two pandemics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemics) involving H1N1 influenza virus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_A_virus_subtype_H1N1), with the second being the swine flu in 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_flu_pandemic).[1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#cite_note-1) It infected 500 million people around the world,[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#cite_note-FOOTNOTETaubenbergerMorens2006-2) or about 27% of the then world population of between 1.8 and 1.9 billion, including people on isolated Pacific islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_islands) and in the Arctic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arctic). The death toll is estimated to have been 40 million to 50 million, and possibly as high as 100 million, making it one of the deadliest epidemics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics) in human history.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#cite_note-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#cite_note-4) Historical and epidemiological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidemiology) data are inadequate to identify with certainty the pandemic's geographic origin.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu#cite_note-FOOTNOTETaubenbergerMorens2006-2)
I got the Hong Kong flu in '68--- it kicked my ass!
Quote
The 1968 flu pandemic was a category 2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandemic_Severity_Index) flu pandemic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flu_pandemic) whose outbreak in 1968 and 1969 killed an estimated one million people worldwide.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_flu_pandemic#cite_note-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_flu_pandemic#cite_note-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_flu_pandemic#cite_note-3) It was caused by an H3N2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H3N2) strain of the influenza A virus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Influenza_A_virus), descended from H2N2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H2N2) through antigenic shift (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigenic_shift), a genetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetics) process in which genes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene) from multiple subtypes reassorted (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reassortment) to form a new virus. Because it originated in Hong Kong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Hong_Kong), the pandemic is also referred to as Hong Kong flu.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on February 28, 2020, 11:18:53 PM
"Maximum discipline", "Absolute Obedience" and loud speakers are being used to keep the virus from crossing the North Korean border. The whole country is under quarantine. Nobody in, nobody out. The people know the drill. They are no strangers to being locked down. In the photo everybody wears a mask except fearless Kim Jong Un who radiates strength and invincibility to his people. South Korea with over 2000 infected should use some of North Korea's methods of prevention.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/kim-warns-serious-consequences-virus-reaches-north-korea-005947594.html

Hey man, North Korea says the glorious leader ERADICATED the virus. I mean that's from the state news. what other confirmation could one want? So Moobs/failboat should definitely head there if he's worried about the 'sniffles'.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 29, 2020, 03:37:34 AM
He keeps trying. Hang on let me try old talk. HE couldn't SEE the similarities. Seeing his RIP will be GLORIOUS.

Your  posting, " I am so busted " would have sufficed.

One of the benefits of 'age' is often wisdom...



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on February 29, 2020, 08:04:01 AM
Blame China.
Since you invested in stocks, I'm sure you've taken a hit.

no, i don't blame china, unless it winds up being a bio weapon gone wild, which i don't think it is the case.   virus's is a way of the world.  reminds me of blaming trump, which also shouldn't be done either, in this case.   

stocks of mine got hit massively like anyone's   i'm not short on money (yet) but one child's 22k a semester college education definately means i need to keep earning and taking a hit hurts in the respect that the education account takes a hit.   i still feel easy come easy go overall about stock prices.   they rose so much in the past few years on paper.    interest rates are at all time lows. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on February 29, 2020, 09:12:51 AM
our quarantined past and future...

when I was a klein kind
meyn bobe told me about her journey from Ukraine to the golden shores of America...

first, it was a long, long train ride, up north past Kyiv and on through Warsaw...
they had to get off the train in Germany and get on another train...

she had her first quarantine in Germany
meyn bobe was just a kleiner kinder like me in a German camp
because her little brother had a cold, the whole family remained in the camp for a month until he got better and they were cleared....

then the family got on a train and went north to Hamburg...
where they boarded an English ship that took them to Hull, England...
where yet again they were interred in a quarantine camp
at least this one was inside and not in a tent like Germany
a small cramped room in an old building on the third floor with a community kitchen
and downstairs outside privy
a week there and they were all cleared to take a short train ride to the western side of the UK to Liverpool where they boarded another ship to sail to New York...

finally arriving on Feb 2, 1882
and quarantined yet again in a single large room with over 100 beds and community kitchen, etc...

after a week there, they were free as birds, and could go to wherever they pleased...

so...

I’m pretty sure that within the next 5 years, we’re going to have a HUGE change in global travel
personal travel will depend on a quarantine system
this requires testing kits...
we should be building dozens of testing kit factories right now
and taking our best minds, and give them unlimited resources
and tell them you’ve got a year to make the biggest improvements you can to the existing test kits and then you start building these factories

just so you understand people...
this disease is 50% more infectious than the flu
and twenty times more lethal....

if it takes hold here, i.e. gets into a locally created exponential growth rate then we are all gonna be screwed, don’t you see that?

we are now very dangerously close to this growth pattern actually beginning now...
hopefully, the growth rate of the virus will be reduced by temperature....
but think about it...
think about what happens after the summer pause,
when the virus’s optimal growth season resumes...
last year, it didn’t have this reservoir of virus, but when this years season restarts, it will...
IMHO, if next year gives us a 50%+ increase, then within 10 years of that, then this disease will be even more common than the flu

which means, with existing virus, we will have about 200,000 to 300,000 deaths per year in the USA
and there is a significant chance that one strain of this virus will recombine with another in a human host and creating a much more lethal version

Disease
Poverty
War
Famine

ghost riders in the sky

a voice in the wilderness, shouting out a warning to my brothers and sisters
all over this land

something on the horizon
slouching towards Bethlehem

and if that's not bad enough news...
there's worse...
this virus is a version of SARS...
it rapidly mutates...
SARS was  completely unknown by science just 20 years ago, and now this is now the 4th outbreak of a SARS virus
and look at the growth in magnitude of the human devastation caused by each new major outbreak of the virus
it's the next one, that's gonna be the one that wipes us all out...

think "Walking Dead" but without the zombies

oh, and before I go, let's let also not forget the fact that the flu infection rate in China has increased by 50% in the last 5 years at the same time

so some of the readers of this board
are probably gonna kiss their ass goodby in the next 5-10 years from SARS
my advice
live for today, don't worry about tomorrow
hey, hey, hey








Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 29, 2020, 10:17:28 AM
no, i don't blame china, unless it winds up being a bio weapon gone wild, which i don't think it is the case.   virus's is a way of the world.  reminds me of blaming trump, which also shouldn't be done either, in this case.   


China has been negligent. Regardless where this virus came from, it showed up last year and China did nothing except to silence those who were sounding the alarm. They let it get out of control in their country and into other countries affecting lives and economies. Although America has 66 infected, we are throwing billions of dollars to combat the problem and quarantining people last year but China didn't want to spend the money and hurt their reputation. Now they're going to spend a lot more money and take a bigger hit on reputation. If this problem was nipped at the bud, life would be fine. Now we have a real chance of living with this virus forever and it will alter our lives and economy forever.

just so you understand people...
this disease is 50% more infectious than the flu
and twenty times more lethal....


Your posts in this thread keep using conservative numbers. The flu has a .1% death rate and the media, government, and people with PhD's in interviews say this virus has a 2% mortality rate which makes it 20 times more deadlier than the flu. The 2% mortality rate is a lie or they all have bad math skills. John Hopkin link below has the reports from all nations. We know some nations like North Korea isn't reporting and some nations are underreporting for lets assume the numbers are true. You still can't get the 2% mortality rate with those numbers. It's higher. Anybody can do the math. 85,688 people in this world have been infected. 2933 people have died from the virus. 39,761 have recovered. That would mean 42,994 people are still battling the virus and can't be included in the mortality rate yet. So out of 42,694 people which have finished the battle with the virus, you can calculate current mortality rate with the 2933 people that died. If someone can show me how the government, media and experts come up with 2%, please show me. Current mortality rate is 6.9% and it's 69 times more deadlier than the flu. The truth may be the mortality rate is over 10%

http://tinyurl.com/yx2mqrfh
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on February 29, 2020, 10:29:06 AM
but the most important number after lethality and rate of infection (which are both really bad for this virus)
is the rate of increase of infection
that will take one more year to figure out
this is the number you need to see before you decide to panic or not

what we have learned so far
is that when the number of cases pass a certain threshold say between 400-1000
then the public adopts a "hoarding mentality" and the grocery stores and pharmacies empty...

smart people will wait until early summer before buying dry foods and MRE's radios flash lights
and here in the USA ammunition
make your purchases then and stretch it out so as to not have early shortages and even more panic

get ready for next flu season this summer


 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 29, 2020, 10:37:57 AM
Panic can be deadlier than this virus. People killing each other over the last mask or food on the shelf. I don't blame the government and experts if they are intentionally telling a lie this virus has a 2% or less mortality rate.

America may be fine but there is a chance an epidemic can hit an American city. Yesterday it was discovered a teen in a county next door to mine had the virus. He has not travelled. That means he got infected from a person who hasn't been discovered and not quarantined. There is a chance that this infected person has infected many more people and the numbers of infected can explode like it did in Italy, Iran, or South Korea.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 29, 2020, 05:54:56 PM
Some ( relative) stats for our BillyB..

"CORONAVIRUS IN NUMBERS…AND WHY WE REALLY SHOULDN’T PANIC"

"Let’s take one of the worst days so far – the 10th of February. Whilst we were enjoying our Public Holiday, 108 persons in CHINA died of Coronavirus.

BUT, on the same day
26,283 people died of Cancer
24,641 people died of Heart Disease
4,300 people died of Diabetes
and on that day, Suicide, unfortunately, took more lives than the virus did, by 28 times.
Moreover, Mosquitoes kill 2,740 people every day, HUMANS kill 1,300 fellow humans every day and Snakes kill 137 people every day."

One final thing which we would like to address is the Myth of the Mask. No, this is not the latest Indiana Jones instalment but a huge misconception.

People who are not sick do not need to wear any mask. A mask is worn to contain germs, in case, those who are affected sneeze (which is the most common way of spreading the virus). The mask should be worn by those who feel that they might be sick. The mask carries germs on its outer part, and, if not changed frequently, then it might actually be one of the carrying vehicles of the germs!

http://bay.com.mt/coronavirus-in-numbers-and-why-we-really-shouldnt-panic/ (http://bay.com.mt/coronavirus-in-numbers-and-why-we-really-shouldnt-panic/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 29, 2020, 06:07:55 PM
"Let’s take one of the worst days so far – the 10th of February. Whilst we were enjoying our Public Holiday, 108 persons in CHINA died of Coronavirus.

BUT, on the same day
26,283 people died of Cancer
24,641 people died of Heart Disease
4,300 people died of Diabetes
and on that day, Suicide, unfortunately, took more lives than the virus did, by 28 times.
Moreover, Mosquitoes kill 2,740 people every day, HUMANS kill 1,300 fellow humans every day and Snakes kill 137 people every day."


Everybody can get cancer, heart disease, diabetes, get bit by a mosquito or snake and if you add all that together, millions will die worldwide every year. If everybody can get this new coronavirus, hundreds of millions can die every year.

"CORONAVIRUS IN NUMBERS…AND WHY WE REALLY SHOULDN’T PANIC"


It's okay if the governments want to keep people from panicking but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see how they are behaving with this virus. Do you see them declaring all out war against mosquitos and snakes who you claim are killing more humans than this virus?

Over the past couple of decades, I never posted a thing about the MERS, SARS, swine and bird flu outbreaks. This virus is different so I post on it. It behaves differently and there may never be a cure found and if it's not stopped and we have to live with it, it will change our economies and our behavior forever.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 29, 2020, 06:20:43 PM
BillyB

You had a VERY simple example of how dangerous the virus is versus other FAR more common ways to die..

So, why don't you tell us if you and your family have self isolated?))
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 29, 2020, 06:28:18 PM
So, why don't you tell us if you and your family have self isolated?))


I live life normally but I'm also aware how fast this thing can explode and will be prepared. Today the first American died from this virus in a hospital 30 minutes from where I live. Yesterday a teen who lives less than an hour away from me didn't travel and  got infected from an unidentified person. This unidentified person can make this virus explode in my region. If an outbreak happens in America, I'm going to predict it'll happen in the Seattle region first. The recent events in Seattle are a sign an outbreak can happen soon as they will discover hundreds who may have gotten infected like the way it went down in South Korea, Iran, and Italy.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on February 29, 2020, 10:37:06 PM
BillyB

The virus is out there.

Based on your 'logic' and 'doomsday scenarios' you'd be MAD to go out...

In the mean time....in the real world .... I am going to worry about other things.


 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 01, 2020, 08:21:52 AM
China has been negligent. Regardless where this virus came from, it showed up last year and China did nothing except to silence those who were sounding the alarm. They let it get out of control in their country and into other countries affecting lives and economies. Although America has 66 infected, we are throwing billions of dollars to combat the problem and quarantining people last year but China didn't want to spend the money and hurt their reputation. Now they're going to spend a lot more money and take a bigger hit on reputation. If this problem was nipped at the bud, life would be fine. Now we have a real chance of living with this virus forever and it will alter our lives and economy forever.

again blaming china for a virus, assuming it wasn't a weaponized virus is just silly.  virus's happen, it has been that way since the beginning of time. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on March 01, 2020, 08:33:23 AM
measles, is another virus that originated in China, first in cattle, then about 800 years ago jumped to humans and spread westward....
killed millions and millions
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on March 01, 2020, 08:43:51 AM
Joos come to the rescue, and create yet another vaccine, cholera, polio, etc

from the sea of Galilee no less, one of my old snorkle spots, cool stuff on the bottom
http://www.jpost.com/HEALTH-SCIENCE/Israeli-scientists-In-three-weeks-we-will-have-coronavirus-vaccine-619101

what a dilemma for the Alt-Right
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 01, 2020, 09:56:18 AM

Based on your 'logic' and 'doomsday scenarios' you'd be MAD to go out...


Where did I say for people to wear masks and stay at home? There is a chance that someday we'll be living like the people of Wuhan. Not many photos and videos leaked out but from the few that has, it's a pretty desolate place. I wonder how the government is feeding those 11 million people under complete lockdown.

again blaming china for a virus, assuming it wasn't a weaponized virus is just silly.  virus's happen, it has been that way since the beginning of time. 

Fires happen too. Let's say you got a small fire and call the fire department. They show up and a squirt of water in the kitchen would extinguish it but they say it's lunchtime and waste an hour eating. Instead of your kitchen getting burned up, your whole house burned down and you're angry. They respond "fires happen since the beginning of time. Don't blame us"
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 01, 2020, 05:54:14 PM

Fires happen too. Let's say you got a small fire and call the fire department. They show up and a squirt of water in the kitchen would extinguish it but they say it's lunchtime and waste an hour eating. Instead of your kitchen getting burned up, your whole house burned down and you're angry. They respond "fires happen since the beginning of time. Don't blame us"

i don't see the situation as similar enough to use fire as a valid comparison. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 01, 2020, 06:07:21 PM
i don't see the situation as similar enough to use fire as a valid comparison.

China absolutely dropped the ball when this virus showed up last year. They didn't act but instead arrested medical professional who wanted to act and sound the alarm to put out the fire/virus. The government of Wuhan was giving out 200,000 free tickets to the New Year Celebration and advertising for people to come to the 40,000 family potluck meal so Guinness Book of World's records can document a world record Potluck gathering in January when they knew this virus was going around since December. Not only did they do nothing, they added gas to a kitchen fire and it's costing lives and billions if not trillions of dollars.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on March 01, 2020, 06:23:04 PM
i don't see the situation as similar enough to use fire as a valid comparison.

It does make sense though, the last few outbreaks tend to be predominantly from rural areas of China. I personally think it's due to not enough health or sanitary standards in place that lead to these host transfers whether it be Pigs, Pangolins or Bats assuming this didnt walk out on the bottom of someone's shoe from a lab.

It is interesting that this came from Beijing the other day....

"the Chinese Ministry of Science and Technology released a new directive entitled “Instructions on strengthening biosecurity management in microbiology labs that handle advanced viruses like the novel coronavirus.”
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 02, 2020, 12:21:12 AM
Where did I say for people to wear masks and stay at home?

Hmm is this the BillyB who thinks I've 'sentenced to death a Georgian border officer for telling her a surgical mask is next to useless .that I'm not 'caring for my wife' in Thailand ?



Wearing gloves and not touching her face is far more effective

YOU are the poster 'bigging up' this virus ... hence my 'advice' to "stay at home and wear surgical masks ..."




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 02, 2020, 10:36:49 AM
Hmm is this the BillyB who thinks I've 'sentenced to death a Georgian border officer for telling her a surgical mask is next to useless .


I don't think you've sentence her to death. I think you're an idiot. She may deal with thousands of people everyday and you're increasing the chances she and others getting infected. How did you get her to pull off her mask? Did you tell her you're an infectious disease doctor?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 02, 2020, 12:21:53 PM
I live life normally but I'm also aware how fast this thing can explode and will be prepared. Today the first American died from this virus in a hospital 30 minutes from where I live. Yesterday a teen who lives less than an hour away from me didn't travel and  got infected from an unidentified person. This unidentified person can make this virus explode in my region. If an outbreak happens in America, I'm going to predict it'll happen in the Seattle region first. The recent events in Seattle are a sign an outbreak can happen soon as they will discover hundreds who may have gotten infected like the way it went down in South Korea, Iran, and Italy.

Quote from: Benjamin Franklin
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure!

Quote from: Kyle Herring
We're going to err on the side of caution. We're going to run this thing to the ground to make sure we understand it!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 02, 2020, 01:20:28 PM
Today my county reported its first case of COVID-19, someone who had traveled recently to Italy. 

The wife has gone bonkers as if the apocalypse  surrounds us.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on March 02, 2020, 01:47:26 PM
Today my county reported its first case of COVID-19, someone who had traveled recently to Italy. 

The wife has gone bonkers as if the apocalypse  surrounds us.

Don't you have an underground bunker ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 02, 2020, 01:56:46 PM
Today my county reported its first case of COVID-19, someone who had traveled recently to Italy. 

The wife has gone bonkers as if the apocalypse  surrounds us.


Studies revealed (not sure who actually stood there and counted this) that an average person touches his/her face 3,000 times/day. 24 hours each day being equal, that equates to 125 touches per hour, or a little over twice per minute.


So to ensure she doesn't get the virus, make sure she refrains from touching her face...she can start modestly and be diligent at least for the first few minutes see how she fares after 24 hours.


If she fails to do this, then its time to panic.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on March 02, 2020, 02:07:35 PM

Studies revealed (not sure who actually stood there and counted this) that an average person touches his/her face 3,000 times/day.

I don't really believe that statistic.
I would bet I don't touch my face more than once during each waking hour, not including when washing face or taking shower.

Now there is another part of my body that I might touch a lot . . . if only it would respond appropriately.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 02, 2020, 02:39:11 PM
LMAO!


That's only 'viral' for persons of advanced age..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 02, 2020, 04:15:39 PM


I don't think you've sentence her to death. I think you're an idiot. She may deal with thousands of people everyday and you're increasing the chances she and others getting infected.

PLE-EASE Explain your 'theory' / 'thought process' that arrives at such a 'conclusion' - given wearing a surgical mask is NOT going to protect her ... and makes it MORE likely she could become ill ..



WHERE do you read the wearing of a mask is necessary / advised in Public Health advisories on this virus?

Two of my colleagues in Georgia ( Rep.of)  are in  / were in medicine as practitioners  ... one had a benign Tumour ( the size of tennis ball  )removed from his thoracic cavity on Jan 14th

IF they wanted surgical masks - they could have brought them and worn them ...


Only an IDIOT would STILL be arguing with folk FAR better qualified and practising what they preach ...



http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2020/02/29/no-you-do-not-need-face-masks-for-coronavirus-they-might-increase-your-infection-risk/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahaelle/2020/02/29/no-you-do-not-need-face-masks-for-coronavirus-they-might-increase-your-infection-risk/)



How did you get her to pull off her mask? Did you tell her you're an infectious disease doctor?

She asked us "purpose of visit " ..from that she worked out the professions of my colleagues and asked why we weren't wearing masks ...


WHY, after all the fuss you are making - aren't you staying at home and making your family WEAR a mask ? ))


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 02, 2020, 04:53:44 PM
Today my county reported its first case of COVID-19, someone who had traveled recently to Italy. 

The wife has gone bonkers as if the apocalypse  surrounds us.

Tell her about my misery so she'll feel better. 5 deaths in my county. Deaths tripled in my State overnight. There's an infected person at the hospital minutes from where I live. My mom was at Costco yesterday and the lines were the longest she ever seen. A neighbor was at the nearest supermarket and there was no bottled water on the shelves. Over a dozen schools shut down. A 44 story office building has been closed because someone who worked there interacted with a person who's now confirmed infected. My best friend's sister's husband played pool last week with the postal worker that was declared infected yesterday. My Vietnamese uncle, a retired nuke engineer, went on a tour of China last year in November. His train was supposed to pass through Wuhan in the middle of November and was stopped by the Chinese Army. The train was rerouted around Wuhan so he ended up missing that city. Don't want a bunch of tourists with cameras to visit that city. Kind of blows a hole in the theory that the virus was discovered in December.


PLE-EASE Explain your 'theory' / 'thought process' that arrives at such a 'conclusion' - given wearing a surgical mask is NOT going to protect her ... and makes it MORE likely she could become ill ..

WHERE do you read the wearing of a mask is necessary / advised in Public Health advisories on this virus?


You're an idiot. There are people, such as that border agent that deals with the public. If management and infectious disease experts tell their employees to wear masks, you have no business to tell them the masks are useless. If an epidemic hits your town, you can run around without a mask as you please and get yourself killed but leave safety measures to the experts. Life is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 02, 2020, 05:50:38 PM
...My mom was at Costco yesterday and the lines were the longest she ever seen. A neighbor was at the nearest supermarket and there was no bottled water on the shelves...


...and they say pandemic is bad for the economy.  >:D


I don't understand the water grab though. It isn't like water will stop running off your faucets.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 02, 2020, 06:20:19 PM
I don't understand the water grab though. It isn't like water will stop running off your faucets.


Maybe they think the virus can swim? After all 16% of those polled think the virus could be in Corona beer. I think our government should located that 16% of the population and revoke their right to vote.

http://www.boston25news.com/news/trending/corona-beer-sales-taking-hit-because-coronavirus-outbreak/ORXV24ZXMZAZDJCBIM7K55MRUE/

My friend texted me and said the lines in the supermarket are all the way to the back of the store. Glad I don't have to go out shopping.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 02, 2020, 06:52:55 PM


You're an idiot. There are people, such as that border agent that deals with the public. If management and infectious disease experts tell their employees to wear masks, you have no business to tell them the masks are useless. If an epidemic hits your town, you can run around without a mask as you please and get yourself killed but leave safety measures to the experts. Life is tough. It's even tougher if you're stupid.


 What is a person who states that a govt agency with a clue  instructed staff to wear surgical masks...  as opposed to the staff being issued them - if they prefer to wear them?








Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 02, 2020, 07:32:36 PM

So to ensure she doesn't get the virus, make sure she refrains from touching her face...she can start modestly and be diligent at least for the first few minutes see how she fares after 24 hours.


She is well informed on safe practices.  Her RW  network had the news on the case in our county before I saw it on the news.  Her strategy is for me to do all the shopping while she stays home.  Upon arrival she sprays me with Lysol, and it has to rest for 30 seconds before I wash it off.     

She worries more about her son going to his college classes.   He is careful, however.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on March 02, 2020, 08:02:34 PM
http://www.chron.com/news/local/article/Coronavirus-patient-released-in-San-Antonio-went-15098649.php

so now we know what happens when we put Republicans in charge of public health!
Hello President Biden!

my guess for when my neighbors and I will be setting up a roadblock at the front gate of our neighborhood and armed neighborhood watch night patrols
I predict...I will be doing this 3 years from now...
if I decide to live in the USA when this hits
depends on how stable Russia and Costa Rica are...

I swear, I have the worst damned luck sometimes, I just got over being an outside school security monitor for 2 hours per day
and thought I was free
but no, it's gonna get even worse, cuz I'll have to do it late at night now AND pack iron...

separate from "just" raw survival
is the impact on all of my businesses
and if my renters lose their jobs, they won't be able to pay their rent
plus, once your local hospital starts getting local cases, then you won't want to go there for ANY reason
even your gall bladder

I predict that when we get to 1,000 cases we will start to see things disappear from store shelves at an alarming rate

at 10,000 cases all schools and non vital government offices will be closed
restaurants will close
no one will want to take public transport
incidents of violent looting are being reported

meanwhile Gold becomes worth more than Gold
I also bought a lot of ammo for bartering

walking dead but without zombies
and I am freakin ready for this sh$t Holmes!


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 02, 2020, 10:53:00 PM
Upon arrival she sprays me with Lysol, and it has to rest for 30 seconds before I wash it off.     
 

My wife sprays Lysol after I use the bathroom to kill the stink. Fortunately she doesn't spray it on me. Lysol says on the can it kills cold and flu viruses. If you want your wife to stop spraying it on you, tell her the viruses are in the inside of your body, not outside. That might be a bad idea though if she decides to inject Lysol into your veins.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on March 02, 2020, 11:50:34 PM
My wife sprays Lysol after I use the bathroom to kill the stink. Fortunately she doesn't spray it on me. Lysol says on the can it kills cold and flu viruses. If you want your wife to stop spraying it on you, tell her the viruses are in the inside of your body, not outside. That might be a bad idea though if she decides to inject Lysol into your veins.

Careful placement of the Lysol should kill the virus and the stink simultaneously.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 03, 2020, 06:09:33 AM
Wifey and I had already discussed that depending how this matter progress, or regress, what our next step will be. Certainly getting equipped with N99/KN95 masks is at the top of the list. The only problem with that at this time is, it only comes in one color. Bummer.

http://emgeneral.com/products/anti-pollution-bacteria-and-viruses-mask

If we wore one of these, we could be mistaken as bank robbers and get shot.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 03, 2020, 07:04:09 AM
...tell her the viruses are in the inside of your body, not outside.

That would terminate kissing, snuggling, any physical intimacy, although that has declined after the start of the wave of COVID fear. 

To be precise, she sprays my hands, the door knobs, counter tops.

She worries too much, yet that is her.  She has seen a lot of turmoil in life, much more than Americans in their protected lives, more than RW who moved to America in their 20s.   She may question why I do not worry, yet she relishes the confidence I give her in all matters, not just viruses. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 03, 2020, 07:12:11 AM
The US COVID-19 testing capacity (test kits and approved laboratories) is increasing.  Supposedly, by the end of next week the US should be able to do 20,000 tests per day.   That will provide some data about how widespread the virus is among our population. 

Other news:  We should have therapeutic medicine by the fall.  That does not give me much comfort.  Regarding a vaccine, maybe next year. 

Wash those hands.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 03, 2020, 08:54:34 AM
Regarding a vaccine, maybe next year. 


Although we read laboratories are close to finding a cure/vaccine or have potentially found one, the cure/vaccine may never be discovered. This new virus is related to the common cold virus, not the flu virus. There is no cure/Vaccines for cold viruses. For decades, our best minds and technology haven't discovered one. This virus is too deadly to live with it like we do cold viruses. It must be eradicated from the human body.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on March 03, 2020, 02:35:26 PM
"lysol sprays?"

my wife puts on a disposable haz-mat suit, takes my shop cart
and fills it with gallon jugs of “triple-distilled” lysol
cuz the stuff you buy in stores, is 70% water
pours all the jugs into the pressure washer’s reservoir tank
and let’s her rip! (don’t forget to take out the toilette paper and magazines first)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on March 03, 2020, 02:46:30 PM
Maybe I'm not old enough, but anyone else remember when the Flu infected 10% of Congress? With how this virus is no different than the Flu I'd think we could remember.

"1 In 10 Iranian MPs Have Tested Positive For Coronavirus, Deputy Speaker Said
Iran has the third-highest number of coronavirus cases outside of China, but the second-highest number of deaths."

http://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/matthewchampion/coronavirus-iran-mps-covid-19
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on March 03, 2020, 09:35:57 PM
"With how this virus is no different than the Flu I'd think we could remember."


no...
covid-19 has a 50% higher R0 or reproducibility rate than this yea's flu virus
which means each covid-19 infected person would on average infect about 50% more people than this year's flu virus would infect, and look how many MILLIONS get the flu every year in the USA
what if 50% more than that got covid-19?
which is what the potential is of this disease based on its R0

covid-19 is also now apparently about 40 times as lethal as this year's flu virus, even more so if you are over age 60...

if the same number of people were infected with covid-19 as were infected so far with the flu
the death toll would be in the hundreds of thousands each year in the USA and whole economy grind to a halt
you'll have to worry about social disorder and even famine as well as other medical issues

also, consider this, covid-19 is just actually a heavily mutated version of SARS...
a disease that was completely unknown just 20 years ago...
this is now the 4th SARS outbreak
and this most recent one, is already 100 times worse than the last 3 put together...
what do you think the next one will be like, which should be in about 5-7 years or so
or what if two separate strains of covid-19 recombine in a human host, like they did with the Spanish Flu that killed 30 million world wide in 1918-1919?
what would the covid-19 or covid-23 version of the Spanish Flu be like?
how many millions do you think would die?
how many millions before civilization completely collapses?


here's my take...

the epidemic is entering a new phase in the USA
as the number of new cases begins to decrease in China, so does the number of new cases coming to the USA from China...
but in the last week the dynamics of the disease began to change
instead of being either recent travelers from China or someone who had close contact with one
new cases began to merge with no known connection to any other infected person, and someone who it's been determined ONLY had contact with locals
we think that this means that there are about 1,500 hidden unknown carriers of covid-19 in the USA right now

we are now in a race with the clock, the disease has established a local reservoir in the USA
the only question is, "how fast is it going to grow"?

the disease will develop in two stages...
a linear stage and an exponential stage...
we are at the early linear stage, and the virus season should really be at the cusp of being over soon in the northern hemisphere
we think the higher temperature will reduce the growth of the disease...

but what happens next October, when the flu season starts up again?
what will the infection rates be then?

since we already passed the 100 mark...
I'll take a guess that the next milestone will either be 400 or 500...
and at 1,000 we start to see some fundamental changes in our society and economy

then next year and the year after it'll get "really bad" IMHO...

something as simple as a virus...
but this horseman does not ride alone
disease, war, famine, poverty
the four ghost riders in the sky


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 03, 2020, 10:42:05 PM

North Korea, sandwiched between the two nations with the most infections, insists it has no coronavirus infections in its country. Chinese ambassador is asking UN for sanctions relief for North Korea stating North Korea is suffering but refuses to say what North Korea is suffering from.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ever-secretive-north-korea-says-it-has-no-coronavirus-–-despite-mounting-clues-to-the-contrary/ar-BB10FHVm?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 04, 2020, 12:47:05 AM
For those STILL believing a mask 'helps' :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51729647 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51729647)

A spokesman said Public Health England informed the ASA [ UK's advertising standard's agency ] "that they do not recommend the use of face masks as a means of protection from coronavirus".



Keep washing your hands and try not to touch your face


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 04, 2020, 06:27:14 AM

Nowhere in that article it said masks don't help. You keep looking for validation to tell people masks don't work. You won't find it so you consider a health organization recommendation your validation.

There's not enough masks to go around so health organizations want to reserve what is available for health care workers and those that are actually sick. Why should health care workers wear a mask if they're not sick? It's easy to figure it out. Because they do help health care workers from getting contracting the virus.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 04, 2020, 08:12:32 AM
Well, BillyB if you feel 'safer' wearing a respirator for protection, especially living in close proximity with the highest number of covid-19 cases in the country, you should.

Now, if taking CDC's recommendation regarding respirators (face mask), just make sure it's rated as a 95, or better, a 99. Designation shown below from CDC's website:

~ An N-95 respirator is one of nine types of disposable particulate respirators. Particulate respirators are also known as “air-purifying respirators” because they protect by filtering particles out of the air as you breathe. These respirators protect only against particles—not gases or vapors. Since airborne biological agents such as bacteria or viruses are particles, they can be filtered by particulate respirators.

Respirators that filter out at least 95% of airborne particles during “worse case” testing using a “most-penetrating” sized particle are given a 95 rating. Those that filter out at least 99% receive a “99” rating. And those that filter at least 99.97% (essentially 100%) receive a “100” rating.

Respirators in this family are rated as N, R, or P for protection against oils. This rating is important in industry because some industrial oils can degrade the filter performance so it doesn’t filter properly.* Respirators are rated “N,” if they are Not resistant to oil, “R” if somewhat Resistant to oil, and “P” if strongly resistant (oil Proof). Thus, there are nine types of disposable particulate respirators:

N-95, N-99, and N-100; R-95, R-99, and R-100; P-95, P-99, and P-100 ~
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 04, 2020, 08:15:52 AM
Well, BillyB if you feel 'safer' wearing a respirator for protection, especially living in close proximity with the highest number of covid-19 cases in the country, you should.

Now, if taking CDC's recommendation regarding respirators (face mask), just make sure it's rated as a 95, or better, a 99. Designation shown below from CDC's website:

one of my silly adorable daughters ordered a bunch of the good facemasks online for all of us.   i think it is nice caring gesture.  I don't suspect they will ever get used, and if it comes to that, i think there will be big problems for the nation. 

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 04, 2020, 08:43:11 AM
one of my silly adorable daughters ordered a bunch of the good facemasks online for all of us.   i think it is nice caring gesture.  I don't suspect they will ever get used, and if it comes to that, i think there will be big problems for the nation. 

Fathertime!

Ever heard of a phrase: 'Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it'?

I have more than a few in my work SUV at our immediate disposal because these are vital components of our overall safety program (IIPP). Safety glasses, gloves, safety vest, hard hat, boots, etc...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 04, 2020, 10:00:26 AM

here's my take...

You write a mostly reasonable analysis, so why the emotionally charged introduction "...how many millions do you think would die?  how many millions before civilization completely collapses?"

Quote
covid-19 has a 50% higher R0 or reproducibility rate than this yea's flu virus

This is your only example of understating the situation.  Flu has a R0 ("R nought") of 1.3.   In contrast, COVID-19 in January in China was 2.5, almost 100% higher.  See graph notes: 


http://www.biancoresearch.com/bianco/samples/2020/01/DashVirus012820.png

A huge question is what were China's criteria for reporting a COVID-19 infection reflected on the chart.   I would surmise it was only the patients displaying serious symptoms requiring healthcare (supposedly about 20% of the cases).

Quote
the epidemic is entering a new phase in the USA

Yes, the new phase of "community spreading."


Quote
we think that this means that there are about 1,500 hidden unknown carriers of covid-19 in the USA right now

1500 is way too high.  It was inevitable that a few asymptomatic carriers would enter the US undetected.  1500 is what could have happened if Trump had not restricted China travelers in January, even though he was criticized then by some Democrats.   

If we have 1500 "COVID-19 Mary's" we are in deep kaka.  "Typhoid Mary" is a classic epidemiological study case in the early  20th C of a disease outbreak traceable to a single carrier. 

The relatively small number of lab tests performed to date raises doubts about any prediction of the number of asymptomatic carriers.    The now accelerating incidences of testing, coupled with epidemiological research, will provide a more accurate assessment in two weeks.  Check back then.

Quote
we are now in a race with the clock, the disease has established a local reservoir in the USA
the only question is, "how fast is it going to grow"?  ....a linear stage and an exponential stage...

Partially correct. 

The initial phase is referred to as the lag phase.    It soon accelerates to a logarithmic, not exponential phase, if unchecked. This is exactly what happened in January in China at a R0 of 2.5, as shown in the chart I cited above. 

What happened next?  The logarithmic phase diminished as China implemented severe measures to curtail social contact.   This is shown in a second chart from China predicting the then current rate would infect 138 million persons by 20 February; however, the actual number of reported cases of infection today is only 80,000.     

 http://www.biancoresearch.com/bianco/samples/2020/01/DashVirusProgression012820b.png

In conclusion,   this disease can be controlled.  One problem in America is our society will not implement quarantine measures as severe as China's.   



Quote
but what happens next October, when the flu season starts up again?
what will the infection rates be then?

COVID-19 will become a normal, hopefully small,  component of our flu season.  A vaccine is two years away given America's safety measures for its development.  Perhaps China, who is not known for its public safety, will develop a vaccine sooner.   An effective  therapeutic drug regimen should occur sooner. 

Meanwhile, be cautious but do not overreact.   It is not doomsday. form a public health standpoint.  Yet, the ripple effect of society's response will create an economic slowdown, perhaps even a recession.  Yuck!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 04, 2020, 02:02:47 PM
Billy, if it'll make you feel any better, wifey tells me that her sisters in Germany and Canada just sent her pictures of their respective empty shelves for hand sanitizers. So she went to our drugstores and marts and saw the same thing. Empty shelves. She asked me to go search for it around where I work - same result.

Walmart, Target, CVS, Amazon, etc...pooof! Out of stock.

The shelf for those pocket and smaller sized disinfectant wipes is nearly gone, too.



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 04, 2020, 05:22:18 PM
Well, BillyB if you feel 'safer' wearing a respirator for protection, especially living in close proximity with the highest number of covid-19 cases in the country, you should.


Currently I and my wife do not wear masks but we are altering our behavior and not going out as often. I save the masks I have for when I really need it but masks are important for those who are sick and those who tend to the sick because they work. But there will be Jokers like Moby who go around to government employees who work in public settings and to hospitals telling medical workers their masks don't work. Why do people conclude they are the authority on something after reading the news?

Billy, if it'll make you feel any better, wifey tells me that her sisters in Germany and Canada just sent her pictures of their respective empty shelves for hand sanitizers. So she went to our drugstores and marts and saw the same thing. Empty shelves. She asked me to go search for it around where I work - same result.

Walmart, Target, CVS, Amazon, etc...pooof! Out of stock.

The shelf for those pocket and smaller sized disinfectant wipes is nearly gone, too.


I didn't wait in lines. I bought a bunch of stuff off Amazon and will let them bring it to me. Even Amazon is taking a long time with their food deliveries now. Chances are the overwhelming majority isn't going to experience an epidemic in their cities but those who are prepared now won't have to stand in lines later fighting over crumbs on the shelves.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on March 04, 2020, 08:51:35 PM
Two men wearing face masks showed up at local bank today.

The customers and employees were greatly relieved when the men said:

"Don't worry, we are only here to rob you."
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 04, 2020, 10:00:29 PM
Ever heard of a phrase: 'Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it'?

I have more than a few in my work SUV at our immediate disposal because these are vital components of our overall safety program (IIPP). Safety glasses, gloves, safety vest, hard hat, boots, etc...

yes, that is a good adage.   i'm rather unprepared myself despite what could come to pass.  i throw myself out in public and just hope for the best.  if i lived with billyb lived I might start to take some more precautions.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 04, 2020, 10:28:08 PM
But there will be Jokers like Moby who go around to government employees who work in public settings and to hospitals telling medical workers their masks don't work. Why do people conclude they are the authority on something after reading the news?

Because they studied Biology to an advanced  level ( specialising in genetics) and understand .. Gosh these jokers aren't in biz with micro-biologists and retired surgeons ....  We haven't been travelling around parts of Europe and Asia - 'marvelling' at the antics of some govts to 'control' said virus ..?

I'm of the opinion that it's better to get it .. and be done - rather than wait until it might be the health service is over-stretched..

We're not changing our life-style worrying about something that's far less likely to end us than being in a RTA..



 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 05, 2020, 12:17:10 AM
Because they studied Biology to an advanced  level ( specialising in genetics) and understand .. Gosh these jokers aren't in biz with micro-biologists and retired surgeons ....  We haven't been travelling around parts of Europe and Asia - 'marvelling' at the antics of some govts to 'control' said virus ..?


You know those guys personally? They must be as nutty as you. Governments are issuing out masks to health care workers who are handling infected patients. Why don't you visit those hospitals and tell them medical professionals the protective gear they're wearing is useless and see what they say?

http://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-03-03/battling-coronavirus-california-distributing-millions-of-face-masks-to-health-care-providers

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-needs-millions-face-masks-not-very-effective-preventing-coronavirus-2020-2


I'm of the opinion that it's better to get it .. and be done - rather than wait until it might be the health service is over-stretched..


Go get it and you might be done done. Also the virus won't be done with you. You can keep catching it. Rich Chinese are bribing guards to get their families out of quarantined cities. I'm sure you can bribe a guard to get into one of those cities to get your virus.

Today WHO announced the death rate is at 3.4% and higher than previously thought! They were guessing previously? All of a sudden the death rate jumped 70% worldwide! When the virus came out, it was claimed it's not deadlier than the flu which kill .1% of the people it infects. Later this corona virus was thought to kill 2%. Now modern nations are reporting much higher death rates than China to bring up the death rate to 3.4% worldwide which is 34 times deadlier than the flu. I can tell you that is still a low number.

http://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/03/who-says-coronavirus-death-rate-is-3point4percent-globally-higher-than-previously-thought.html

Today at the John Hopkins website that keeps track of this virus,  reported 2,647,665 infections worldwide for a short time it and then it got changed back into the 90k range. Somebody making an effort to get the truth out? Hacker games?



We're not changing our life-style worrying about something that's far less likely to end us than being in a RTA..


It's people like you that makes it hard to stop the virus. I got a worker who goes to the bar a lot. Kisses and sleeps with various women a lot. I told him to change his behavior if he wants to be around me. Pick a girl and go exclusive with her for a short time.

People don't have to stop living but everybody needs to participate to prevent the virus being spread recklessly. China, South Korea, Italy, and Dubai have closed all schools. Governments expect stupid to happen so they take action. Quit being stupid. Maybe you don't care about your life but at least care about others.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 05, 2020, 12:57:02 AM
You know those guys personally? They must be as nutty as you.

Must do, they took the same four flights I did .. :rolleyes:  As to who's 'nuts' .. Only one of us is posting about stuff, proving he doesn't understand .


Governments are issuing out masks to health care workers who are handling infected patients. Why don't you visit those hospitals and tell them medical professionals the protective gear they're wearing is useless and see what they say?

http://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-03-03/battling-coronavirus-california-distributing-millions-of-face-masks-to-health-care-providers

I highlighted in bold the relevant part ... INFECTED PATIENTS ...    Are they wearing them in the street, or when they go off duty ... ?

http://www.businessinsider.com/us-needs-millions-face-masks-not-very-effective-preventing-coronavirus-2020-2

Go get it and you might be done done. Also the virus won't be done with you. You can keep catching it. Rich Chinese are bribing guards to get their families out of quarantined cities. I'm sure you can bribe a guard to get into one of those cities to get your virus.

Today WHO announced the death rate is at 3.4% and higher than previously thought! They were guessing previously? All of a sudden the death rate jumped 70% worldwide! When the virus came out, it was claimed it's not deadlier than the flu which kill .1% of the people it infects. Later this corona virus was thought to kill 2%. Now modern nations are reporting much higher death rates than China to bring up the death rate to 3.4% worldwide which is 34 times deadlier than the flu. I can tell you that is still a low number. 

http://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/03/who-says-coronavirus-death-rate-is-3point4percent-globally-higher-than-previously-thought.html

*I* can tell that BillyB sucks at stats..  WHO figures ..excl China ( who's figures you do not trust !) 11962 confirmed cases  208 deaths ...  1,7 percent

Many cases of the Virus are so mild - they aren't reported / known to BE a notifiable case.. so the numbers are lower ..



Today at the John Hopkins website that keeps track of this virus,  reported 2,647,665 infections worldwide for a short time it and then it got changed back into the 90k range. Somebody making an effort to get the truth out? Hacker games?

There's another BillyB 'conspiracy theory ' to track down ..   :popcorn:

It's people like you that makes it hard to stop the virus. I got a worker who goes to the bar a lot. Kisses and sleeps with various women a lot. I told him to change his behavior if he wants to be around me. Pick a girl and go exclusive with her for a short time.

It's people like YOU that cause shortages of stuff, through panic buying and ignorance ... Your worker needs to find a new boss

People don't have to stop living but everybody needs to participate to prevent the virus being spread recklessly. China, South Korea, Italy, and Dubai have closed all schools. Governments expect stupid to happen so they take action. Quit being stupid. Maybe you don't care about your life but at least care about others.

Silly BillyB

I  understand there may come a time when our govts may ask us to stop travelling and mixing with large numbers of people..

Italy was the sole EU nation to ban flights to and from China...WAY before their numbers spiked ...   THAT  'worked out well' ..

I'm still pointing out that washing your hands is a FAR better preventative precaution to wearing face masks ..

I'm still pointing out that you're FAR more likely to die from some other cause ..



As to 'reinfection' ... 

http://www.euronews.com/2020/02/27/coronavirus-can-you-catch-covid-19-twice-euronews-answers  (http://www.euronews.com/2020/02/27/coronavirus-can-you-catch-covid-19-twice-euronews-answers)

Highly unlikely ...





Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 05, 2020, 08:16:20 AM
as of last night the carona virus has suddenly sprung up a few miles away, walking distance.  I suppose I'll casually stock up a bit on some of the essentials.   
  As a side note, one of the lines of products I have for sale is exercise equipment, over the past few weeks there has been a lot more sales than expected.  I conclude that people are staying out of the gym, and choosing to exercise at home away from other people and the corona virus.   

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 05, 2020, 08:44:58 AM
I highlighted in bold the relevant part ... INFECTED PATIENTS ...    Are they wearing them in the street, or when they go off duty ... ?


So you want to revise your previous statement that masks don't work? Seems like you're acknowledging they will stop the virus when near an infected patient.

Many cases of the Virus are so mild - they aren't reported / known to BE a notifiable case.. so the numbers are lower ..


You think like a Chinese Communist leader. You are willing to include infected people we don't know about to lower the death rate but you fail to included infected dead people we do not know about into the death rate to raise the death rate.

We can calculate death rate with what we do KNOW,  those confirmed recovered and dead. Don't speculate there are more infected and dead out there undetected and will decrease or increase the death rate to help with your narrative on what is actually happening. Nobody knows if they had the flu or corona virus then recovered or died undetected. It's too late to test them.

Right now, Italy reports 107 dead and 276 recovered after a battle with the virus. That's a 28% death rate for them at this moment which means it's 280 times more deadlier than the flu.

The Chinese province of Zhejiang of near the same population as Italy reports 1 dead and 1124 people recovered. .09% death rate which means less people there are dying from this virus than the flu.

Now you can continue to believe the Chinese has some kind of super immune system over Italians but I will continue to state Chinese severely under reports how bad the virus is. So while mortality rates are extremely high in most other nations, the Chinese brings death rate way down since they have the bulk of the cases so WHO now concludes death rate is 3.4%. I trust the Italian numbers more than the Chinese. As the rest of the world increases infections, deaths and recoveries and add more weight to offset the low Chinese death rate, you can expect WHO to revise the death rates even higher.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 05, 2020, 08:50:35 AM
as of last night the carona virus has suddenly sprung up a few miles away, walking distance.  I suppose I'll casually stock up a bit on some of the essentials.   
  As a side note, one of the lines of products I have for sale is exercise equipment, over the past few weeks there has been a lot more sales than expected.  I conclude that people are staying out of the gym, and choosing to exercise at home away from other people and the corona virus.   

Fathertime!

Hi FT !

We had a case around here weeks ago... the teacher had it...  brought it from SE Asia ..  No one has caught it the school is open again ..  You'll be fine ;)

Took Mum to the local General Practitioners Surgery - she had an ear infection ...  NO staff wearing masks - just lots of WASH YOUR HANDS..




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 05, 2020, 09:10:00 AM
So you want to revise your previous statement that masks don't work? Seems like you're acknowledging they will stop the virus when near an infected patient.
 

Nope. You simply don't understand why masks are worn PERIOD in isolation wards ...STD PRACTICE ...




Right now, Italy reports 107 dead and 276 recovered after a battle with the virus. That's a 28% death rate for them at this moment which means it's 280 times more deadlier than the flu.

WHY are you quoting more bollox, Silly BillyB ?  Those infected is always behind ...

WHO figures for Italy 4th March :


Confirmed cases: 2502, Deaths 80 - that's 3.8 percent





The Chinese province of Zhejiang of near the same population as Italy reports 1 dead and 1124 people recovered. .09% death rate which means less people there are dying from this virus than the flu.


You're not even accurate ... Source WHO Zhejiang    http://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200304-sitrep-44-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=783b4c9d_6
 (http://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200304-sitrep-44-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=783b4c9d_6)


Confirmed cases: 1213


Deaths Confirmed:1

Italy is larger


Now you can continue to believe the Chinese has some kind of super immune system over Italians but I will continue to state Chinese severely under reports how bad the virus is. So while mortality rates are extremely high in most other nations, the Chinese brings death rate way down since they have the bulk of the cases so WHO now concludes death rate is 3.4%. I trust the Italian numbers more than the Chinese. As the rest of the world increases infections, deaths and recoveries and add more weight to offset the low Chinese death rate, you can expect WHO to revise the death rates even higher.

Hubei is more accurately closer to Italy and the figures are:

67332 cases , 2871 deaths - just over 4%


I think the cases reported are seriously UNDER reported ...   some folks won't even know they had it ...



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 05, 2020, 10:14:21 AM
Hi FT !

We had a case around here weeks ago... the teacher had it...  brought it from SE Asia ..  No one has caught it the school is open again ..  You'll be fine ;)

Took Mum to the local General Practitioners Surgery - she had an ear infection ...  NO staff wearing masks - just lots of WASH YOUR HANDS..
Hey Mooby! 
A delightful/upbeat movie from the UK was Threads which I'm sure you saw back in the day.  I like the English way of just 'carrying on'.    Either I, or one of kids will go buy our little toilet paper and 'foodstuffs' and lets see how it all plays out.  I've got a nice angry wound to attend to so I'll try to stay behind the computer more.   No mask wearing just yet, and I'm a filthy guy so I won't even wash my hands enough.   

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 05, 2020, 06:32:28 PM
WHO figures for Italy 4th March :

Confirmed cases: 2502, Deaths 80 - that's 3.8 percent


You don't seem to understand how death rates work after talking about it. On the 5th of March, Italy reports 3858 infections, 148 deaths, and 414 recoveries. To calculate death rate, you calculate with those who finished their battle with the virus. 148 deaths vs 414 recoveries means 562 Italians finished their fight with the virus. Since 148 died, it's a 26.3% death rate.

Try this exercise. Since there are still over 3000 Italians fighting for their lives against the virus tell them "I'm collecting data for mortality rates. Did you survive the virus or did you die from this virus?" They would answer "You're an idiot". That is because you are trying to label them into the survivor category or died category when you're not supposed to do that until their fight with the virus is over. Even those who are 5 yo, are sick, dumb, and have dementia would know your question is stupid and it's stupid trying to lump those currently infected into the survivor category to bring down the death rates. Some of those currently infected will be going into the dead pool.

http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 05, 2020, 07:22:10 PM
Data on number of cases is suspect because of limited capacity for lab tests.  A couple of sources have said only 500 Americans have been subjected to lab tests.   

Those with a high fever and no respiratory symptoms were probably misdiagnosed as something other than COVID-19 unless confirmed by lab tests. 


Thus, death rate estimates are also suspect.   We will know more in 1-2 weeks.   

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 05, 2020, 07:39:32 PM
Data on number of cases is suspect because of limited capacity for lab tests.  A couple of sources have said only 500 Americans have been subjected to lab tests.   

Those with a high fever and no respiratory symptoms were probably misdiagnosed as something other than COVID-19 unless confirmed by lab tests. 


Thus, death rate estimates are also suspect.   We will know more in 1-2 weeks.   

There's a lot of people that died from this virus that aren't counted too. Their listed cause of death may be pneumonia or flu when the corona virus is to blame. If they were counted, the death rate may hold or go up. There's a lot of stories trying to bring the numbers down so we don't worry but yesterday WHO raised the death rate by 70%. Previously they said it was 2%. Now they say it's 3.4%. They were way off then and they're still way off.

China reports 80k Chinese been infected which means 1 out of 17,325 people in their country got the virus. South Korea reports 6000 infections which means one out of 8578 people in their country got the virus. In a shorter time and with earlier warnings South Korea has double the rate of infections among it's people than China. Since the virus started in China and went undetected longer there than in any country, one would think China would have the highest rate of infections among it's people by far over other nations. They are grossly under reporting infections and deaths. My mom reads news out of Asia and they are burning MASSIVE amounts of bodies. But China reports only 3383 deaths which is nothing for a population of over 1.3 billion. Their crematories should be able to handle a few thousand extra bodies but not true. Crematories are working 24/7 and bodies continue to pile outside the crematories waiting for their turn to burn.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 05, 2020, 10:37:19 PM
You don't seem to understand

BillyB - when it comes to common sense and arithmetic , you are bereft .. 

I asked you, yesterday, where you sourced your WHO 'statement' re a higher percentage re mortality and you've not responded - other than producing BillyB Bollox data..

A reminder, from a recently retired  NHS theatre nurse ( I studied with her ) as to PERSPECTIVE ..

(http://i.imgur.com/FIVuYYg.jpg)




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 05, 2020, 10:59:09 PM
I asked you, yesterday, where you sourced your WHO 'statement' re a higher percentage re mortality and you've not responded - other than producing BillyB Bollox data..


Google WHO 3.4% and you'll find a lot of news articles including the WHO statement at their own website. Also you participated at the other forum where someone put a news article link with that info. It's easy to find this info, especially when it's handed to you so I ignored your request and just thought you were acting dumb again. You're asking for it again so I now realize you weren't acting.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 06, 2020, 12:51:31 AM
SillyBillyB,

The 'soundbite factoid' you sought was,
"Globally, about 3.4% of REPORTED COVID-19 cases have died".

http://www.who.int/dg/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-opening-remarks-at-the-media-briefing-on-covid-19---3-march-2020 (http://www.who.int/dg/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-opening-remarks-at-the-media-briefing-on-covid-19---3-march-2020)

You 'missed' ...

"Both COVID-19 and influenza cause respiratory disease and spread the same way, via small droplets of fluid from the nose and mouth of someone who is sick.

However, there are some important differences between COVID-19 and influenza.

First, COVID-19 does not transmit as efficiently as influenza, from the data we have so far."

Now..What has he told us today ...?

"The fight against rumours and misinformation is a vital part of the battle against this virus. We rely on you to make sure people have accurate information about the threat they face, and how to protect themselves and others.

Now to the numbers.

There is now a total of 95,265 reported cases of COVID-19 globally, and 3281 deaths. "


"3.4% "

"We see encouraging signs from the Republic of Korea. The number of newly-reported cases appears to be declining, and the cases that are being reported are being identified primarily from known clusters. "


Now let's check WHO.int numbers for today ..

Based on reported cases v Deaths  ..


China = 3.7%
and

the Rest of the World ..1.8%


http://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200305-sitrep-45-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=ed2ba78b_2 (http://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200305-sitrep-45-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=ed2ba78b_2)

Remind me, which poster doesn't 'trust' China's figures ?









Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 06, 2020, 07:59:44 AM

Now let's check WHO.int numbers for today ..

Based on reported cases v Deaths  ..

China = 3.7%
and

the Rest of the World ..1.8%

Reported cases isn't death rate. I'm going to take 4 regions of the world with similar populations and compare them. Two regions are known to be more dishonest with what is going on than the others. Two regions are not 1st World nations. Guess which two are being dishonest using today's numbers.

South Korea reports 42 deaths and 135 recoveries

Italy reports 148 deaths and 414 recoveries

Iran reports 124 deaths and 913 recoveries

Chinese province of Zhejiang reports 1 death and 1147 recoveries

http://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6

Also in a much shorter time and given warning the virus is floating around South Korea, Italy, and Iran all have higher rates of infection among it's population than China who got it first and didn't take action on it right away.

Whatever you do or they report to imply death rate is low, it's BS. The death rate will climb but never to the true number because of dishonest reporting and there are many deaths that doesn't get reported because the bodies were never tested for the virus and thus blame of death will be recorded as influenza or pneumonia.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 06, 2020, 08:14:13 AM
I say again, anyone calculating  a CFR (Case Fatality Rate) is pushing the existing data too far.  Not only are the data limited if not suspect, the data are not comparable (apples and oranges) from nation to nation.   For example, Iran's initially reported 2 cases and 2 deaths - that's a 100% CFR.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 06, 2020, 08:57:24 AM
I say again, anyone calculating  a CFR (Case Fatality Rate) is pushing the existing data too far.  Not only are the data limited if not suspect, the data are not comparable (apples and oranges) from nation to nation.   For example, Iran's initially reported 2 cases and 2 deaths - that's a 100% CFR.   

It's why I talk about nations that have thousands of cases. I trust Italy's and South Korea's reporting and so far in their nations, for every 3 people who recover, one person has died. That's a 25% death rate and that is very alarming. WHO is careful not to create panic but they can see what is going on in developed countries such as South Korea and Italy now that their pool of people is bigger and understand mortality rates are a lot worse than China's, which was the go to nation to gauge since they had the first big pool of infected. WHO has now told all nations to put out ALL stops against this virus and said "This is not a drill". Governments need people to function normally to prosper so they tell us things so we don't panic but this virus is different. I've been on this forum for years and people can search for my past posts and see I didn't post anything on SARS, MERS, and the various swine and bird flus that the world had to experience over the last few decades. This virus is different and I agree with WHO that governments need to everything they can to stop it. The death rate is too high for humanity to live with and because it's related to the cold virus, a cure may never be found.

I read the WHO link below and they never said the death/mortality rate is 3.4%. They said "Globally, about 3.4% of reported COVID-19 cases have died." WHO didn't say that was current mortality rate but the media wrongly translated it to be that. Reported cases can't be included in the mortality rate until we learn if the infected will live or die after their battle with the virus. The death rate is higher. Many cases of those who died from the virus got recorded as dying from pneumonia and influenza. More deaths will happen without those bodies being properly tested and thus properly recorded since the test kits are reserved for those who are alive.

http://www.who.int/dg/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-opening-remarks-at-the-media-briefing-on-covid-19---3-march-2020

Edited to add South Korea is investing $25 billion dollars to fight the virus which is big money in a country of 51 million. They are investing almost $500 per person to fight the virus. The S Korean Prez Moon calls the situation "grave".

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/east-asia/article/3064709/coronavirus-south-koreas-cases-hit-4812-28-deaths-moon-jae
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on March 06, 2020, 11:33:42 AM
it appears there are two strains, the newer one much more virulent than the earlier one
so the lethality is increasing over time
virologists expected this to happen
because these types of virus can recombine in the host and create a novel virus
that out competes the other two and spreads more
and when more and more people are infected then the new more lethal strains will come even faster

if I could "short" the human species right now, in a couple of years, I'd have quite a bundle


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 06, 2020, 11:35:37 AM
At this very early stages of any pandemic, any report that tries to establish a kill rate ratio (averaging method) will always be flawed, BillyB. There were 3 infected people in California reported recently, and yesterday apparently one of them died. A 33% kill ratio? I think not on the basis that we have absolutely no basis of information exactly how many was actually infected when the 'first' lone case became known.

100 cases may already be established but were undiagnosed, which then would make that lone casualty credit COVID-19 with a mere 1% kill rate. The flu, according to CDC's estimates, have killed (HE) 52,000 people from 10/19 - 2/20 against an estimated people that were sick of the flu during the period at 49,000,000. This would credit the flu with a 1/10th kill rate ratio.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-estimates.htm

Bottom line is, establishing death rates right now is useless. It's nothing more than an invisible boogeyman in a darkened room.

The unfortunate known pattern we have so far is that COVID-19, while no one is immune to it at this time, has consistently shown to only be fatal to the elderly with medical condition. Obviously, people with very low immunity level.

So far.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 06, 2020, 11:57:24 AM
At this very early stages of any pandemic, any report that tries to establish a kill rate ratio (averaging method) will always be flawed, BillyB. There were 3 infected people in California reported recently, and yesterday apparently one of them died. A 33% kill ratio?


Because of the large sampling pool of people, it's why I talk about South Korea and Italy's numbers, not California's. Even Iran now has a large sample pool of people and a horrible death rate but it's not going to be as reliable as South Korea's and Italy's. Statistics are important. As more reliable nations report accurate information, the situation becomes clear and it's much more grim than what China has shown it to be. With more reliable reports coming in, facts can be formulated and there's enough information now to the point WHO is asking every nation to throw everything they have to fight the virus. This is not a drill.

Back in January I factored the under reporting of China and death rate from the small sample, learned the characteristics of this virus, and learned a vaccine/cure many never happen, I sounded the alarm back then. This virus is really bad shit and could kill billions if Italy's and South Korea's death to recovery ratio holds. Numbers may go down a little since the best doctors and respirators to assist breathing are helping currently infected people beat the virus but if it gets out of control and everybody got the virus, there's not enough best doctors and respiratory equipment to go around so the death rate will skyrocket if humanity can't control the virus. This can become a worldwide plague that will make the history books unless we stop it soon.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 06, 2020, 01:00:07 PM
This can become a worldwide plague that will make the history books unless we stop it soon.

Only one of us is already posting daft and doesn't realise it ..

WAY more people committed suicide, died at the hand of another human, died of a snake bite or mosquito bite ..


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 06, 2020, 02:03:34 PM
I last flew internationally on Sunday - with a lay-over in Istanbul

I was first on the plane and made my way to my window seat - and put my small carry-on bag in the overhead locker .. the flight was full and I KNEW folks were being asked to put stuff in the hold ..

I observed a member of the crew handing out forms to the passengers - after a while ..  this was the form

http://www.iata.org/contentassets/07a397c1164d45e794c22949c75a95ac/public-health-passenger-locator-form.pdf (http://www.iata.org/contentassets/07a397c1164d45e794c22949c75a95ac/public-health-passenger-locator-form.pdf)

I asked for one and was promised one ..  I never got it


On leaving the plane - no one seemed to be collecting said forms ..

No one was collecting the forms ... at Transit , passport control, before boarding the next flight...? ((





Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 06, 2020, 02:38:20 PM
...Back in January I factored the under reporting of China and death rate from the small sample, learned the characteristics of this virus, and learned a vaccine/cure many never happen, I sounded the alarm back then. This virus is really bad shit and could kill billions if Italy's and South Korea's death to recovery ratio holds. Numbers may go down a little since the best doctors and respirators to assist breathing are helping currently infected people beat the virus but if it gets out of control and everybody got the virus, there's not enough best doctors and respiratory equipment to go around so the death rate will skyrocket if humanity can't control the virus. This can become a worldwide plague that will make the history books unless we stop it soon.


China may have (intentionally? - for what though, I don't know) under reported the # of cases, but I need to ask, if this is a new viral strain, how could China determine how to test it, much less how to differentiate a person sick of the common flu from those on coronavirus?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 06, 2020, 03:29:20 PM

... if this is a new viral strain, how could China determine how to test it, much less how to differentiate a person sick of the common flu from those on coronavirus?

BINGO!   China was obviously in the dark in the first days of this disease outbreak.  To illustrate the following is the first account the UN WHO reported about the disease. 

Quote
     
Pneumonia of unknown cause reported to WHO China Office
 

31 December 2019

At the close of 2019, the WHO China Country Office was informed of a pneumonia of unknown cause, detected in the city of Wuhan in Hubei province, China. According to the authorities, some patients were operating dealers or vendors in the Huanan Seafood market.

Staying in close contact with national authorities, WHO began monitoring the situation and requested further information on the laboratory tests performed and the different diagnoses considered.   


Everything moved quickly after that obscure report. 

China reported the genetic sequence of the COVID-19 strain in mid-January.  Only with such data could a reliable laboratory test be developed. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 06, 2020, 04:14:50 PM
I need to ask, if this is a new viral strain, how could China determine how to test it, much less how to differentiate a person sick of the common flu from those on coronavirus?


It's actually easy to test. If doctors don't recognize it being a cold, flu or any type of virus they've ever seen, it's the new guy on the block. Did you read the translated Chinese article on the other thread I provided? Sept 18, 2019 article reported a man in Wuhan was discovered to have a corona virus that was never seen before. When a new bacteria, virus, animal, plant or whatever is discovered, it's supposed to be big news unless it's suppressed. Also other articles I provided said the virus showed up December 8 which is why doctors sounded the alarm before China notified WHO.

When a person gets sick, the doctor may take blood or swab their mouths to get samples what's in there. The sample gets sent to the lab to determine if a person's illness is viral or bacterial related. If it's a viral infection, it is determined what kind of virus so the doctor can prescribe the proper anti viral medicine. If the lab technicians don't recognize the virus, it's obviously the new guy on the block and common sense says to sound the alarm to the government and medical community which some whistleblower doctors did.

The Chinese government didn't allow the local government of Wuhan to report the virus. Zhou, mayor of Wuhan apologized for the delay which he blamed on government policy. Comment below is in link below. Also some at the potluck got the virus.

Zhou later took responsibility for the delay in reporting the scale of the epidemic, but said he was hampered by the national law on infectious diseases.
That law allows provincial governments to declare an epidemic only after receiving central government approval.
"After I receive information, I can only release it when I'm authorised," he said.


http://www.thestar.com.my/news/regional/2020/02/06/wuhan-neighbourhood-sees-infections-after-40000-families-gather-for-potluck

Everything moved quickly after that obscure report. 


The Chinese reporting the new virus on the block didn't get things moving quickly. Mayor of Wuhan said the announcement was delayed. China then and still today blocked international experts from coming to Wuhan to investigate and help stop the spread before it got outside China. China continued till near the end of January with business as usual encouraging people to congregate to celebrate the new year.

A couple of days ago WHO put out a statement saying this virus is deadlier than previously thought. I already knew that. In that statement they also said "This virus is not SARS, it’s not MERS, and it’s not influenza. It is a unique virus with unique characteristics." and "at the moment there is no vaccine and no specific treatment for COVID-19" and "we must do everything we can to contain it."

http://www.who.int/dg/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-opening-remarks-at-the-media-briefing-on-covid-19---3-march-2020

Today WHO says it's false hope to think this virus will disappear in the summer like the flu. As infections disease experts learn more about this virus, be prepared for more bad news. Experts, not the Moby kind, have already talked about it and it's clear it's going to get real bad if we don't stop it. Governments don't want to scare people and cause panic. If everybody stops working and functioning, that's a bad scenario so it's best to get people to believe it's okay to keep working and living while sacrificing a few. So they put out articles this virus isn't so bad. Problem is to contain this virus, quarantining people will be a big part of it. If we do not stop the virus, periodic quarantine will be a part of our lives when an outbreak happens. There's an increasing chance somebody on this forum will experience life the way the citizens of Wuhan does.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health-news/its-a-false-hope-coronavirus-will-disappear-in-the-summer-like-the-flu-who-says/ar-BB10QrLc?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 06, 2020, 04:38:26 PM
It's actually easy to test. If doctors don't recognize it being a cold, flu or any type of virus they've ever seen, it's the new guy on the block. Did you read the translated Chinese article on the other thread I provided? Sept 18, 2019 article reported a man in Wuhan was discovered to have a corona virus that was never seen before. When a new bacteria, virus, animal, plant or whatever is discovered, it's supposed to be big news unless it's suppressed. Also other articles I provided said the virus showed up December 8 which is why doctors sounded the alarm before China notified WHO....

Admittedly, no, I didn't read the article you referred to. But again, what would be the point of concealing a 'new' virus from the scientific community? Pride? If politics, what would be the point?

Forget the Chinese, judge our own for a minute (CDC). Despite already being alarmed by what allegedly China had done, and the fact we are supposed to be a more clinically advanced than China, we still couldn't move fast enough, or properly enough, to put out test kits on time and/or what it is that needed to be done to determine every facets of what needed to be studied. Heck, look at the test criteria CDC gave before a test can be conducted? Again, this is way after the madness in China kicked in.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 06, 2020, 05:37:56 PM
But again, what would be the point of concealing a 'new' virus from the scientific community? Pride? If politics, what would be the point?


My guess is China wanted to protect it's economy and pride. They've already had the lion's share of outbreaks around the world with SARS, and multiple swine and bird flu epidemics. Communist governments try to give the impression they're the best kind of government around and nothing bad happens under their watch. Iran doesn't have much economy so them not disclosing the truth is more about pride. Bad things aren't supposed to happen to them. I remember the Prez of Iran coming to America and gave a speech at a college saying they don't have the problem of homosexuals in Iran.

If China didn't drop the ball and allowed infectious disease experts from around the world to pinpoint the source, start working on vaccines and containment plans, learning about this virus, educate the public earlier, more people's lives would be saved and economies wouldn't take as big of a hit.

Cold and flu viruses are so widespread that they can't be stopped so we live with them side by side forever. Cold viruses are harmless but our immunity attacks them anyway so we try to sneeze and cough them out and there's to cure for the cold virus. All we have is medicine to relieve our symptoms as our immune system does all the work to get rid of cold viruses. Flus are more dangerous but we can create vaccines and other anti viral medicine to defeat the flu virus.  This new virus is related to the cold virus except is very dangerous. The more it spreads, the harder it is to get rid up and we may come to the point of defeat and begin to realize we'll have to live with it forever and like colds we can get them multiple times in our lives. Living with it forever will alter our lives and behavior. Getting quarantined to control periodic regional outbreaks may become a way of life.

CDC says adults get 2-3 colds a year average and children can get up to 12 colds a year. I don't remember having that much colds per year but some may have not been so noticeable although I acquired a cold virus. Some people's first infection from this new corona virus is not very noticeable. Next infection may be very noticeable and kill them.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/166606

Forget the Chinese, judge our own for a minute (CDC). Despite already being alarmed by what allegedly China had done, and the fact we are supposed to be a more clinically advanced than China, we still couldn't move fast enough, or properly enough, to put out test kits on time and/or what it is that needed to be done to determine every facets of what needed to be studied. Heck, look at the test criteria CDC gave before a test can be conducted? Again, this is way after the madness in China kicked in.

The CDC started to ship test kits over a month ago. Back then, there were no outbreaks in America but the CDC was getting prepared for one. The problem was a regent in the test kits that made them faulty so it was wasted time and money. Back to the drawing board. I don't blame government on that. Government hired pharmaceutical companies, doctors and scientists to create the products the American public needs. They are human and mistakes happen.

http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/02/united-states-badly-bungled-coronavirus-testing-things-may-soon-improve

As I typed this post, I got a call with a recorded message from the VA Hospital in Seattle to tell me what part of the hospital to go for the virus testing. I do have an appointment there next week for a checkup. I'll report back what the medical staff is wearing.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 06, 2020, 08:08:54 PM
China was obviously in the dark in the first days of this disease outbreak.  To illustrate the following is the first account the UN WHO reported about the disease. 

Pneumonia of unknown cause reported to WHO China Office
 
31 December 2019

At the close of 2019, the WHO China Country Office was informed of a pneumonia of unknown cause, detected in the city of Wuhan in Hubei province, China.


Everything moved quickly after that obscure report. 


Gator here's another reason China wasn't in the dark. Taiwan has a low infection count at this moment and it's because they took action in December based off Chinese people talking about it informally before China announced it to the world. Taiwan didn't know much about the virus except it was killing lots of Chinese in December. Virus doesn't even have to have a name. Just need to know it's dangerous and action needs to happen so Taiwan quarantined people on flights from Wuhan in December to check if they're sick. My mom who reads Vietnamese news read about this bad boy virus last year but didn't tell me because she thought I would laugh it off as tabloid news.

http://www.voanews.com/science-health/coronavirus-outbreak/why-taiwan-has-just-42-coronavirus-cases-while-neighbors-report
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 07, 2020, 05:11:52 AM
Florida cases:

Confirmed cases of infection: 12

           6 FL residents (2 of whom died)
           5 FL residents now in quarantine outside FL
           1 Non-FL resident

Cases Awaiting Test Results:  88

Being monitored:  278 (had contact with confirmed case)

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 07, 2020, 10:34:06 AM
I've searched, although not intensely, as to how those in the cruise ship in California got infected. Does anyone know? IINM, the one in Florida apparently involved folks coming back from their vacation in Italy.

3 tested positive in UCLA campus yesterday, but the news didn't state exactly how they got the infection either.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 07, 2020, 10:48:09 AM
The CDC started to ship test kits over a month ago. Back then, there were no outbreaks in America but the CDC was getting prepared for one. The problem was a regent in the test kits that made them faulty so it was wasted time and money. Back to the drawing board. I don't blame government on that. Government hired pharmaceutical companies, doctors and scientists to create the products the American public needs. They are human and mistakes happen.

That's not exactly what was reported, BillyB. We (CDC) decided to extricate itself from the global partnership and conduct their own testing method. Instead of partnering and sharing results and information, IIRC, CDC wanted to not only create a test kits to isolate COVID-19, but create a kit to also identify a wider range of viral pathogens.

Quote
As the highly infectious coronavirus jumped from China to country after country in January and February, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention lost valuable weeks that could have been used to track its possible spread in the United States because it insisted upon devising its own test.

The federal agency shunned the World Health Organization test guidelines used by other countries and set out to create a more complicated test of its own that could identify a range of similar viruses. But when it was sent to labs across the country in the first week of February, it didn’t work as expected. The CDC test correctly identified COVID-19, the disease caused by the virus. But in all but a handful of state labs, it falsely flagged the presence of the other viruses in harmless samples.

http://www.propublica.org/article/cdc-coronavirus-covid-19-test

This seem to fly in the face of what you seem to be saying about China's slow reaction to the infection.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 07, 2020, 11:10:09 AM
That's not exactly what was reported, BillyB. We (CDC) decided to extricate itself from the global partnership and conduct their own testing method. Instead of partnering and sharing results and information, IIRC, CDC wanted to not only create a test kits to isolate COVID-19, but create a kit to also identify a wider range of viral pathogens.

http://www.propublica.org/article/cdc-coronavirus-covid-19-test

This seem to fly in the face of what you seem to be saying about China's slow reaction to the infection.

Global partnership? How many countries decided to WHO's guidelines instead of their own? I put a link up earlier that showed the first CDC's test kits had a faulty regent. It's a manufacturing defect which was corrected. Problem didn't have nothing to do with not following guidelines. The CDC doesn't need to follow the WHO's guidelines to make a properly working kit which we already have now.

Didn't see anywhere in the article that compliments China for a fast reaction to the infection. Taiwan reacted to the virus before China announced the newly discovered virus to the world. That's fast.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 07, 2020, 11:18:34 AM
Global partnership? How many countries decided to WHO's guidelines instead of their own? I put a link up earlier that showed the first CDC's test kits had a faulty regent. It's a manufacturing defect which was corrected. Problem didn't have nothing to do with not following guidelines. The CDC doesn't need to follow the WHO's guidelines to make a properly working kit which we already have now.

It's *reagent*. WHO is the scientific/medical global partnership. If you don't like this description, you can call it any other name you'd like. I, nor anyone in the article cited, mentioned anything about not following guidelines. What it reported was, CDC decided to conduct testing methodology on it's own instead of partnering with the WHO, global community, or whatever you want to name it.

As a consequence, it failed. The CDC applied methodology FAILED. Set them back weeks...whether you'd like to believe the report or not is entirely up to you.

Quote
Didn't see anywhere in the article that compliments China for a fast reaction to the infection. Taiwan reacted to the virus before China announced the newly discovered virus to the world. That's fast.

The article nor I didn't say it either, so not sure where you inferred someone was complimenting China.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 07, 2020, 12:38:16 PM
It's *reagent*. WHO is the scientific/medical global partnership. If you don't like this description, you can call it any other name you'd like. I, nor anyone in the article cited, mentioned anything about not following guidelines. What it reported was, CDC decided to conduct testing methodology on it's own instead of partnering with the WHO, global community, or whatever you want to name it.

As a consequence, it failed. The CDC applied methodology FAILED. Set them back weeks...whether you'd like to believe the report or not is entirely up to you.


Your article said "The CDC test correctly identified COVID-19, the disease caused by the virus. But in all but a handful of state labs, it falsely flagged the presence of the other viruses in harmless samples."

So basically the test flagged the presence of other viruses in  harmless samples. The manufacture of the American test kits corrected the problem and made test kits that work.  International organizations guidelines are usually designed easy enough for all countries to follow. Doesn't mean it's the best guideline possible. It's just a guideline that even under developed countries can follow. If I needed a test and they ask me if I wanted the CDC designed test or a Nigerian test kit that followed WHO's guidelines, I choose the CDC test every time because usually they are going to want to build a better more sophisticated test that may identify more viruses than just COVID=19
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 07, 2020, 04:13:42 PM
I've searched, although not intensely, as to how those in the cruise ship in California got infected. Does anyone know?

No,  but seems weird that of the 21 infected, 19 were crew members.  The crews on these ships can be huge, numbering over 1,000. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 07, 2020, 04:22:37 PM
No,  but seems weird that of the 21 infected, 19 were crew members.  The crews on these ships can be huge, numbering over 1,000.


Since the majority of infected are crew members, it could mean the infected passengers that infected them were on the previous cruise and those passengers are already back home all over America.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 07, 2020, 05:35:06 PM
Since the majority of infected are crew members, it could mean the infected passengers that infected them were on the previous cruise and those passengers  are already back home all over America.

Possibly, yet for sure under surveillance by health organizations.

Billy, you are beginning to sound like Krimster. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on March 07, 2020, 06:02:21 PM
what?
no way, I NEVER ever thought about having sex in a cemetery late at night like yon William has, are you kiddin me?
mannnnn....
you pull your willy out late at night in a cemetery, and FOR SURE, something VERY BAD will happen to it....
that's just "common sense"


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: calmissile on March 07, 2020, 06:20:31 PM
It is somewhat amusing to watch the hysteria developing over the Corona Virus.  There seems to be a lack of critical thinking and common sense that that the public is participating in.  People are being whipped into a frenzy fueled by the media.

Lets apply some perspective to the situation....

This is not the Black Plague!  Most deaths are occurring in elderly folks with underlying health conditions and compromised immune systems.  Most of those infected outside 3rd world countries have symptoms of the common flu viruses and get over it naturally.

Although not reported by mainstream media, it would be helpful to see a chart with the number of infections and deaths from the common flu vs. the Corona Virus.  It would be even more helpful to see it broken down by age groups and those with and without underlying health problems.  That would allow us to put some perspective on the seriousness and risk factors for this strain of the flu.

Just like the common flu season we experience every year, there are some common sense actions we can all take to minimize the risks of catching this flu strain or any other communicable virus or infection.

Stay away from large gatherings of people.  Don't go to the movies, concerts or other gatherings of a lot of people outside your normal social circle.  While it does not guarantee that you won't come into contact with someone that is carrying a virus, it reduces the risk considerably.  I also would not use public transportation unless there is no other option.

If there is an outbreak in my area, I might go further to isolate our family to further reduce the risks but I sure as hell and not going to go out and start buying up face masks and toilet paper at the present time.  We often cannot avoid the risks of contacting someone at work or our children at school that might be infectious, but until there is a risk identified in those places, we should not panic and become irrational.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 07, 2020, 06:35:43 PM
Billy, you are beginning to sound like Krimster.


Krimster predicting gloom and doom has a real chance on becoming reality this time. This virus is related to the cold virus. There is no vaccine for the cold virus so we live with the cold virus. This virus is much more deadlier than the flu. If we can't eradicate it from the human body and lose control, we will have to live with it and if there isn't a vaccine invented, containment is the only solution for control. That means quarantining regional populations during outbreaks is something we'll have to live with forever. Quarantined societies have a hard time to function and will need outside support. Our health care systems will be pushed to the limits. It will strain economies. Humanity will struggle. You mentioned in the other thread in the end, flus will kill more. That will be true only if we stop the new virus soon. If every person on earth got to experience this new virus once, we'd wish we had the flu instead.

History teaches a lesson. Trump's grandfather died in the first wave of three Spanish Flus to hit America. Out of 500 million worldwide to be infected, 50 million died. 10% mortality rate. Average lifespan for Americans dropped 12 years during this period. Based on early numbers coming in from trustworthy nations, this new corona virus is worse and there is no vaccine and may never be one. We have vaccines to prevent the Spanish flu from ever wrecking havoc on humanity again. Imagine there being no cure for the Spanish Flu and we had to deal with it still today on a yearly basis. Here's a 2018 article on Spanish Flu with old photos showing citizens wearing masks. That was life for those citizens during rough times. Masks may be a part of our lives too.

http://blogs.cdc.gov/publichealthmatters/2018/05/1918-flu/

Most deaths are occurring in elderly folks with underlying health conditions and compromised immune systems.  Most of those infected outside 3rd world countries have symptoms of the common flu viruses and get over it naturally.


It's easy for older people to die from any disease or injury over young people. The flu is more dangerous to older people than young people but overall .1% of people infected by the flu will die or in other words, 1 out of 1000 people will die and the majority will be older people or the very young with underdeveloped lungs. This new virus is much more dangerous than the flu across the board for all age groups. Of course older and very young will still be more likely to die than 20 yo people.

If this new virus wasn't so bad, you wouldn't see hundreds of millions of people under full or partial lockdown for the few months it's appeared on earth. With already more than 10% of the population on earth experiencing a quarantine, that should tell us something about how bad this virus really is even if the governments aren't telling us.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on March 07, 2020, 07:03:36 PM
3 numbers really determine the mortality rate of a virus...

the first is R0, or reproducibility rate, the number of people on average a single infected person will infect...
this virus has is a 50% higher R0 then the common version of flu

next number is virulence, this virus is over 40 times more deadly than the flu and skews towards older people...

last is the size of the number infected, common flu can infect about 5% of a given population in just one season...that's 15 million, here in the US of A

this virus DOES NOT like to grow in warm weather, and prefers below 51 degree F....

in the USA, at the moment the virus is growing at the rate of about 20 to 25% per day
by the end of tomorrow we will probably have over 500 cases in the USA not counting the over 600 in the cruise ship of fools

I would expect a decrease in the rate of transmission soon because of the change in temp

but then when flu season starts in October, I expect this to EXPLODE....

we are where China was in December....
I expect our entry to the exponential will happen, but not as quickly as  China's because of the weather
but I expect to have 100,000 cases here in the USA by December.....

this means a 10% drop in USA's GDP
this means ALL schools and non-essential government offices will be closed
and restaurants and many, many other businesses
public transport
store shelves are empty
all by December...

in America many people have their health insurance tied to their jobs
and a million people are gonna get laid off
and lose their health insurance

your kid broke his arm, and you want to get into the ER?
forget about it, go see a doctor instead, if he's not dead....
suddenly prices on everything starts skyrocketing...

your world by December friends
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 07, 2020, 07:11:43 PM
I would expect a decrease in the rate of transmission soon because of the change in temp

but then when flu season starts in October, I expect this to EXPLODE....


WHO said "This virus is not SARS, it’s not MERS, and it’s not influenza. It is a unique virus with unique characteristics." and "at the moment there is no vaccine and no specific treatment for COVID-19" and "we must do everything we can to contain it."

This is not the flu and behaves differently and may survive the hotter months and continue to infect people. WHO says it's false hope to think this virus will disappear in the summer like the flu. I suspect WHO put the virus in a hotter environment to mimic Summer and were disappointed to learn it still survived.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/health-news/its-a-false-hope-coronavirus-will-disappear-in-the-summer-like-the-flu-who-says/ar-BB10QrLc?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 09, 2020, 02:18:37 PM
3 numbers really determine the mortality rate of a virus...

the first is R0, or reproducibility rate, the number of people on average a single infected person will infect...
this virus has is a 50% higher R0 then the common version of flu

next number is virulence, this virus is over 40 times more deadly than the flu and skews towards older people...

last is the size of the number infected, common flu can infect about 5% of a given population in just one season...that's 15 million, here in the US of A


krimster.  You have this confused.   Two of your variables (R0 and "number infected") are essentially the same. 

An epidemiologist would estimate morbidity using something such as the D-O-T-S formula, where:

                    D = duration of time that an infected person can infect others
                    O = opportunity for contact with other persons  (quarantine would be near zero while
                                        flying, sports events, movie theater, etc.  would be high)
                    T = transmission (for COVID-19 shaking hands, touching surfaces, coughing, etc.)
                    S = susceptibility of person contacted (age, health, vaccinations when available, etc.)

The "O" and "T" determine exposure and can be mostly controlled by individual behavior.  Death and recovery are subsets of number infected.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 09, 2020, 03:33:22 PM
If every person on earth got to experience this new virus once, we'd wish we had the flu instead.

I am guessing BillyB doesn't realise that many people hardly know they've had it ...




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 09, 2020, 03:51:17 PM
I am guessing BillyB doesn't realise that many people hardly know they've had it ...

There are also dead people that didn't know they had it too. CDC says adults get 2-3 colds a year. I don't feel like I got that many colds each year. Sometimes I don't know I got it. Other times I definitely know I got it. COVID-19, related to the cold virus, may act the same way as a cold where we may not feel it sometimes and other times we do.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 09, 2020, 08:40:09 PM
'Sorry', I was seeking a coherent riposte to pointing out that many infected people do / did not realise they had THE virus...

I expect that whilst those who have died may not have appreciated why...but, 'guess what'?! .....

I have a feeling medics know and report, accordingly...

Do you 'get' my point..?

Must I do the make it v.simple so that Silly Billy gets it, too...?

The figures for those dying, having been infected, are FAR more accurate than those infected.



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 09, 2020, 09:17:38 PM
I have a feeling medics know and report, accordingly...


How Sherlock Holmes? Your feelings aren't facts. Most medical professionals never seen and won't be able to identify this new virus. Patient comes in with flu symptoms and later dies. Influenza gets blamed. Money and time aren't going to get spent to take a culture sample from a dead person to send to a laboratory for confirmation on what actually killed the person. See Krimster's post saying Chinese had a 50% increase in influenza cases. Not hard to figure out what is going on.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 10, 2020, 01:18:18 AM
My 'feelings' are somewhat less orientated to 'conspiracy theory'...

Those with such an outlook grasp that manipulating figures will be obvious, after other nations experience a serious outbreak.

The numbers for those infected are much more inaccurate than those dying.

In the meantime your unique interpretation of the data would amuse, if it wasn't such a sad topic.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 10, 2020, 04:44:26 PM
My wife had an appointment today with a specialist physician.  Among different forms she signed, she had to complete a written form that asked a few questions to assess the risk of whether she has a COVID-19 infection.

If a patient says they are sick with COVID-19 symptoms,  the staff measures their vital signs, and advises them to  "STAY HOME."  Hydrate, take anti-inflammatory medicine, and rest. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 10, 2020, 09:22:55 PM

Propaganda machine has been turned on because Chinese citizens are angry at their government. China state controlled media is now saying the virus could've come from another country. If that was the case, they should've have been claiming the virus came from a meat market and silenced whistleblowers. While the world is busy with their own epidemics, China is rewriting history.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/beijing-objects-to-term-wuhan-coronavirus-and-says-it-may-not-have-originated-in-china/ar-BB10YD26?ocid=spartanntp

Top Communist official in Wuhan calls for gratitude education for all so citizens may show their appreciation for the government that saved their country. Sounds like he's got a hard on for a promotion. Although the Chinese government thinks the Chinese government are heroes, the doctors who tried to sound the alarm early and forced China's hand into reporting the virus to WHO are the heroes. While the world is busy with the gift China gave them, China is rewriting history.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/wuhan-official-called-gratitude-education-190949766.html

November 2019 China was hit by the plague and silenced whistleblower doctors. Sound familiar? They finally reported it to WHO only after what was happening posted on social media. They got the plague under control. Probably gave them confidence they'd the virus of the century under control.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/16/china-bubonic-plague-outbreak-pandemic/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 10, 2020, 09:56:38 PM
BillyB,

It's not just China blaming 'the west' ..

YOU blamed the Chinese ... suggesting it had 'escaped from a biolab'..

Seeing any common denominator ? ...





Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 10, 2020, 10:20:02 PM
YOU blamed the Chinese ...


That's because they admitted it was their baby. Now they don't want to pay child support.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 11, 2020, 05:41:04 AM
CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/specific-groups/high-risk-complications.html) advises the elderly to stock up on supplies and stay home as much as possible.

This is a great idea! For one, it’ll free up the carpool and fast lanes and will eliminate traffic jams in LA. Thank you COVID-19! 😝
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 11, 2020, 06:34:27 AM
Germany's Merkel warned that up to 70% of the country's population could become infected.

Her point,  and a good one, is that Germany needs to take measures not to prevent the outbreak but to slow it.   Otherwise the Germany healthcare system will be overwhelmed.  Does she plan to follow the Italy model? 

For those of you in Europe, what is the public reaction?   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 11, 2020, 06:49:50 AM
CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/specific-groups/high-risk-complications.html) advises the elderly to stock up on supplies and stay home as much as possible.

This is a great idea! For one, it’ll free up the carpool and fast lanes and will eliminate traffic jams in LA. Thank you COVID-19! 😝

IF / When you, I or a family member gets infected, I'm sure the members will remember what a public service we're being ...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 11, 2020, 06:54:15 AM
When will the world have therapeutic treatment for COVID-19?

One possible treatment is to use pharmaceuticals intended to counteract autoimmune diseases, because many of the COVID-19 deaths result from overreaction by the body's natural autoimmune system.  Thus, one such pharmaceutical is that used to treat  rheumatoid arthritis.  Although not approved by FDA, it has been given to some patients on a "mercy" basis, and it was beneficial.

There are many other possible candidates, and every pharmaceutical company in the world is likely busy analyzing the possibilities.   I feel the world will have something effective within months. 

When will we have a COVID-19 vaccine?  Supposedly those patients who have recovered from a COVID-19 infection have developed an immunity to contracting future infection.  That's a good sign.    Hundreds of thousands of  Jonas Salk wannabes are laboring in their labs.    One will find the answer.

The problem is that viruses change.    Next year could be worse.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 11, 2020, 08:01:14 AM
When will the world have therapeutic treatment for COVID-19?


Just saw a report on Capitol Hill this morning that they are in fact already administering this on multiple *infected* volunteers, both here in the US and China. I missed the gentleman's name though.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 11, 2020, 08:02:12 AM
Germany's Merkel warned that up to 70% of the country's population could become infected.

Her point,  and a good one, is that Germany needs to take measures not to prevent the outbreak but to slow it.   Otherwise the Germany healthcare system will be overwhelmed.  Does she plan to follow the Italy model? 

For those that have been pooh pooh'ing the potential of this virus, the numbers and latest reactions should be a signal that this may wind up being extremely serious.  I recall reading numerous times how this was killing so much less than the flu, or comparing abortions to the number of deaths.   

It seems in the coming days, quarantines will be a coming. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 11, 2020, 08:07:02 AM
it’ll free up the carpool and fast lanes and will eliminate traffic jams in LA. Thank you COVID-19! 😝


Not much traffic jams in Seattle right now. Feels nice but if people continue to lose school and work, the economy will suffer.

One possible treatment is to use pharmaceuticals intended to counteract autoimmune diseases, because many of the COVID-19 deaths result from overreaction by the body's natural autoimmune system.  Thus, one such pharmaceutical is that used to treat  rheumatoid arthritis.  Although not approved by FDA, it has been given to some patients on a "mercy" basis, and it was beneficial.


Medical professionals have been trying cocktails of all kinds of medicines to find if something works. WHO put out a statement last week that there is no cure. People going to try to find and claim they found one anyway. Some people have washed bleach and other products on their bodies thinking it works. Others have increased their consumption of alcohol. Until WHO or CDC puts out a statement of a vaccine or treatment, I don't believe anything I read.

Supposedly those patients who have recovered from a COVID-19 infection have developed an immunity to contracting future infection. 


In a matter of months, we now have two strains of COVID-19 running around. Our immune system can't stop the flu from affecting our bodies again and most likely can't stop COVID-19. We need a vaccine but it would take years to develop one. Since it's related to a cold virus, years may pass us by and it'll sink in that there may never be a vaccine. Nevertheless, governments will continue to put out the story they are working hard on it and labs will report to the media they are close to discovering one. Stories like that are already out but its all BS.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 11, 2020, 08:10:16 AM

This is a great idea! For one, it’ll free up the carpool and fast lanes and will eliminate traffic jams in LA. Thank you COVID-19! 😝
I'm going to carry on for another day today.  Going to be doing some driving through LA/IE today.  I'll be curious to see if traffic is any different.  I come in contact with a lot of people, and due to this I'd expect to catch the virus at some point if the numbers are correct.  Maybe I survive but others around me most certainly would not, and the potential of that is disturbing enough to at least give me a moment's pause...nevertheless going to carry on for now.   If clusters start to pop up in this area, I think I would indeed have to then reassess and perhaps button down, at which point everyone else would probably do the same, and the dreaded TP shortage would ruin my enjoyment of a good crap...among other things.   

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 11, 2020, 08:22:10 AM
Not much traffic jams in Seattle right now. Feels nice but if people continue to lose school and work, the economy will suffer.


That's awesome! You're experiencing immediate benefit of not having the elderlies driving around. Now if we can somehow get the Asian flu-20 started it'd really free up our roads and freeways
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 11, 2020, 10:11:08 AM
Earlier in this thread I had mentioned that the possible genesis of this virus was transferred via what is known as 'zoonotics', simply defined as: a disease that can be transmitted from animals to people or, more specifically, a disease that normally exists in animals but that can infect humans. There are multitudes of zoonotic diseases. Some examples include: anthrax.

Then I mentioned and speculated about the Asiatic regions' love for their wet markets aka snake alleys, where there's a section of the markets where caged live animals of all types are offered and prepared as fresh meat, and I wasn't too far off apparently...

I just now found a video detailing this *likely* cause of the virus...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7nZ4mw4mXw
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 11, 2020, 10:33:47 AM

Then I mentioned and speculated about the Asiatic regions' love for their wet markets aka snake alleys, where there's a section of the markets where caged live animals of all types are offered and prepared as fresh meat, and I wasn't too far off apparently...





I listened to half the video but there is no evidence the virus came from an animal just suspicion. WHO put out a statement they don't have a definitive answer to the source but they are still looking for the source. Infected coronavirus meat has not been found. There is no animal herd, snake farm, or bat cave that houses the virus. There's not a single animal on earth that has been detected to have this coronavirus. Correction. A Chinese woman has recently given it to her dog but the dog is not the source.


The expert in the video shouldn't be ignored. He's considered the world's best expert on coronavirus and said this virus is much more dangerous than SARS and can infect 60% of the population on the first wave. The journalist predicted that amount of people multiplied by mortality rate and concluded up to 45 million people will die. Keep in mind, the mortality rate that is being reported is very low because China manipulated the numbers and also of the widespread use of incorrect methods to calculate mortality rates.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 11, 2020, 11:28:46 AM
So, not a Chinese biolab error?..

BillyB...you have posted SO much nonsense re this virus...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on March 11, 2020, 11:35:59 AM
So, not a Chinese biolab error?..

BillyB...you have posted SO much nonsense re this virus...

pot, meet kettle.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on March 11, 2020, 11:40:49 AM
"Coronavirus: Up to 70% of Germany could become infected - Merkel"


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51835856

first troops are deployed in new rochelle, ny to seal it off

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 11, 2020, 11:56:10 AM
So, not a Chinese biolab error?..

BillyB...you have posted SO much nonsense re this virus...

Nobody knows where this virus came from and if someone does know, they ain't telling.

Some experts in viruses have predicted the new coronavirus was originally housed in a Canadian level-4 bio lab. Level 4 labs house the most dangerous pathogens known to man. With their statements currently floating around I Googled for some past info and found this:

In this July 2019 Canadian article, their Level-4 lab fired a Chinese researcher who travelled to China often and trained those in Wuhan's new level-4 lab. Experts at the time said it could be a case of intellectual property theft that got the Chinese researcher fired. Because she wasn't arrested, it means they don't have proof she stole something, just speculating based on her behavior and frequent travel to China.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/chinese-researcher-escorted-from-infectious-disease-lab-amid-rcmp-investigation-1.5211567

Chinese article below written Sept 18 2019 saying a person in Wuhan was diagnosed with a new kind of coronavirus. My uncle was on a tour of China in the middle of November and his tour group was scheduled to stop in Wuhan. The Chinese military stopped his train and told them to go around Wuhan.

http://www.ctdsb.net/html/2019/0918/sportsMeet260345.html

Translated version of that Chinese article below.

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=zh-CN&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ctdsb.net%2Fhtml%2F2019%2F0918%2FsportsMeet260345.html

This virus was never found in an animal. It's a beast. Could be genetically engineered to be tougher and deadlier than what Mother Nature throws at us. Doesn't matter now where it came from. We just have to deal with it since China lost control of it. Is it a bio weapon? Humans develop all kinds of bio weapons but not all will be chosen for war. If a nation can't find an antidote or vaccine for a newly discovered bio weapon to protect their troops, the bio weapon remains locked up at the lab. A bioweapon that can be stopped will be chosen for war instead.

Where do  you think it came from? I'm sure you talked to an expert who read a book about viruses and he gave you the inside scoop.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 11, 2020, 12:40:46 PM
Billy, did it ever occurred to you that if there’s any ounce of truth in your story that the Chinese government would immediately skin this scientist alive for inventing a weapon that only kills old farts with underlying medical condition to boot!?!

C’mon man. Hell you're more lethal man cause you’re killing me.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: SANDRO43 on March 11, 2020, 12:53:18 PM
I am old enough to remember the years after the end of WWII, the situation I witness now in Milan reminds me of those almost forgotten days :(.

Since last Monday, new anti-crowding regulations are in force. Many shops and restaurants decided to close down, fewer people circulating, many face masks in evidence - where did they get them :-\? - no more than 3 persons at a time allowed to enter food shops, many shelves half empty. Bars are required to serve drinks at tables, not at the counter.

I went to my usual supermarket to buy a few things, the queue before the entrance was  about 50 people :( - at the recommended interval of at least 1 metre, the delay before finally entering about 30'.

Given the situation, I of course bought a few extra items not to face the same delay again shortly. Other customers came out with overloaded bags.

The Government and our Protezione Civile - the agency managing this crisis - recommended a "stay at home" policy. In effect, Italy is quarantined until April 3rd, no exits allowed from the city of residence unless for valid, written self-certified reasons, like work and serious health conditions. Fines and also arrest for transgressors. Theatres, cinemas, museums, discoes, gyms, stadiums etc. were ordered to close down. Most sports activities cancelled or postponed.

Today the OMS has declared Coronavirus-19  a pandemic. 

China's situation seems to be on the mend, we are negotiating the purchase of several pieces of respiratory equipment and a few million masks from there.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 11, 2020, 02:22:10 PM
pot, meet kettle.

I'm sorry .. you may have taken a break from here ..perhaps you missed myself and others pointing out Billy's statistical flaws - with examples ..


'Surprise' me with a reasoned argument that my point was incorrect ..



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 11, 2020, 02:26:58 PM
Poor 'ol Italians

Now all shops (other than food establishments) must close ... but restaurants, bars, etc, must close, too ((

Their PM announced it about 40 mins ago

Not sure about hotels ... Saw a British couple interviewed, earlier - they are in Rome - cannot get home and their hotel was closing - as they couldn't afford to stay open (

http://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/suddenly-the-er-is-collapsing-a-doctors-stark-warning-from-italys-coronavirus-epicentre/ (http://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/suddenly-the-er-is-collapsing-a-doctors-stark-warning-from-italys-coronavirus-epicentre/)

Sadly, it seems that ER is near collapse ..

"Patients above 65 or younger with comorbidities are not even assessed by ITU, I am not saying not tubed, I’m saying not assessed and no ITU staff attends when they arrest. Staff are working as much as they can but they are starting to get sick and are emotionally overwhelmed."

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on March 11, 2020, 02:33:09 PM
I'm sorry .. you may have taken a break from here ..perhaps you missed myself and others pointing out Billy's statistical flaws - with examples ..


'Surprise' me with a reasoned argument that my point was incorrect ..

Could, but would it change your opinion with infallible evidence such as a Doc you know who knows these things and how he knows better than the CDC or WHO?


Especially after that was proven wrong? Likely not. Didn't you say it's best to get infected and get the infection over with to build an Immunity? Go give that a shot. I heard your Health Minister just caught it. Perhaps you could illuminate her on how the Flu is worse and we need a herd immunity ASAP.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 11, 2020, 02:38:16 PM
Billy, did it ever occurred to you that if there’s any ounce of truth in your story that the Chinese government would immediately skin this scientist alive for inventing a weapon that only kills old farts with underlying medical condition to boot!?!


Old people have a greater chance to die from bio weapons, nukes, bullets, flus and falls. This is not a new revelation. Young adults can die from the flu but this new virus greatly multiplies their chances to die. From the link I provided earlier that said males are dying more than women, China also stated 20% of those who died in their country are under 60 yo. Our best experts can't predict the future. We may build an immunity to the virus or this virus may evolve into something more dangerous.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 11, 2020, 02:44:19 PM
Could, but would it change your opinion with infallible evidence such as a Doc you know who knows these things and how he knows better than the CDC or WHO?

Inattentive, as ever ..  The Doc / Micro-biologist in question are EXACTLY the type of people YOU should be listening to ...


Especially after that was proven wrong? Likely not. Didn't you say it's best to get infected and get the infection over with to build an Immunity?

I meant there might be a school of thought  to get it EARLY.. as if there is a storm like in Italy .. if one gets respiratory problems  - you'd stand less of chance of recovery ...

Once again, inattentive


 I heard your Health Minister just caught it. Perhaps you could illuminate her on how the Flu is worse and we need a herd immunity ASAP.

'A' health minister ... not THE head of the Ministry ..

She's at home - not a hospital ..

Three strikes for inattentiveness

Shame this isn't baseball




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on March 11, 2020, 02:50:13 PM
Inattentive, as ever ..  The Doc / Micro-biologist in question are EXACTLY the type of people YOU should be listening to ...

I meant there might be a school of thought  to get it EARLY.. as if there is a storm like in Italy .. if one gets respiratory problems  - you'd stand less of chance of recovery ...

Once again, inattentive

'A' health minister ... not THE head of the Ministry ..

She's at home - not a hospital ..

Three strikes for inattentiveness

Shame this isn't baseball

Based on previous scores you'd be with a .000 average past Brexit.

Also, how accurate was that school of thought? The one you proposed after speaking to your MD and former MD colleagues who said it was a Flu and not to worry? Don't answer, it's rhetorical we can just go here to find out: http://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html



In other news unrelated to putting blinders over your eyes or head in the sand, several more states here declared a state of emergency. We're told at work to go home to work. Headed back to Texas for a mini vacation. Fiancee is worried I may not be able to meet up with her in May/June, her friends are in Milan and are saying it is getting worse (for them) as far as the quarantine.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 11, 2020, 03:47:05 PM
Based on previous scores you'd be with a .000 average past Brexit.

So, no 'counter' with any facts to support your drive-by troll ..?

Also, how accurate was that school of thought? The one you proposed after speaking to your MD and former MD colleagues who said it was a Flu and not to worry?

I'm not worried .. I'm not in the 'at high risk' age group..

Flu' kills 1000's of elderly ppl in the UK, annually



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on March 11, 2020, 04:07:20 PM
So, no 'counter' with any facts to support your drive-by troll ..?

Pot meet kettle 2x in a day. Color me lucky.


I'm not worried .. I'm not in the 'at high risk' age group..

Flu' kills 1000's of elderly ppl in the UK, annually

We all hope don't we?  :popcorn:


In other news....

Boris Johnson is set to escalate the UK's coronavirus response to the next phase - meaning schools could be forced to close, major sporting events cancelled and people made to work from home.

http://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-uk-set-to-move-to-delay-phase-schools-could-close-and-major-events-cancelled-11955695


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on March 11, 2020, 06:14:45 PM
pot, meet kettle.
That might be an insult to pots and pans.

The latest squawk from the left [CNN CBS MSMBC pundits] is that Republicans.. conservative news.. and Trump supporters are RACIST...calling the virus CHINESE. Thing is these hypocrites were saying that themselves back in January --- The Chinese virus..the Wuhan virus..etc
The Communist leadership over there said knock it off or we will get no more medicines [97% made in China]
 
Quote
What is the coronavirus from China and what are the symptoms?
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-what-are-symptoms-fast-facts-china-wuhan-virus-death-toll/
Most of those videos have been removed in compliance with Beijing's orders.
Mark my words...Mr Joe Biden will bow to the Chinese ---his butt in the air.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 11, 2020, 06:51:52 PM
The Communist leadership over there said knock it off or we will get no more medicines [97% made in China]
  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-what-are-symptoms-fast-facts-china-wuhan-virus-death-toll/
Most of those videos have been removed in compliance with Beijing's orders.
Mark my words...Mr Joe Biden will bow to the Chinese ---his butt in the air.

world health organization praised china for it's response to the virus...it seems that those in the know disagree with how you are directing your anger. 

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on March 11, 2020, 06:58:03 PM
That might be an insult to pots and pans.

The latest squawk from the left [CNN CBS MSMBC pundits] is that Republicans.. conservative news.. and Trump supporters are RACIST...calling the virus CHINESE. Thing is these hypocrites were saying that themselves back in January --- The Chinese virus..the Wuhan virus..etc
The Communist leadership over there said knock it off or we will get no more medicines [97% made in China]
  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-what-are-symptoms-fast-facts-china-wuhan-virus-death-toll/
Most of those videos have been removed in compliance with Beijing's orders.
Mark my words...Mr Joe Biden will bow to the Chinese ---his butt in the air.

That might be an insult to pots and pans.

Dammit TF, when I'm back in Texas we gotta meet so I can buy you (and yours) a beer.

Dammit TF, when I'm back in Texas we gotta meet so I can buy you (and yours) a beer.

world health organization praised china for it's response to the virus...it seems that those in the know disagree with how you are directing your anger. 

Fathertime!

Time will tell as your UN shows. However I feel like you will be eating crow soon.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 11, 2020, 07:22:03 PM
world health organization praised china for it's response to the virus...


WHO gave their praise Jan 9 after China reported the virus showed up Dec 31.

http://www.who.int/china/news/detail/09-01-2020-who-statement-regarding-cluster-of-pneumonia-cases-in-wuhan-china

After praising China for quickly identifying and managing the situation so it doesn't get out of control they said "WHO does not recommend any specific measures for travellers. WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the information currently available."

Basically WHO gave everybody the green light to vacation in China which lost control of a situation that evolved into an epidemic. China didn't allow WHO's scientists and doctors in to evaluate the situation and help stop the virus so WHO took their word that they had it under control. When WHO was refused to evaluate the situation for themselves, it should've raised a big red flag and warnings to the international community should've started earlier.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on March 11, 2020, 07:27:56 PM
WHO gave their praise Jan 9 after China reported the virus showed up Dec 31.

http://www.who.int/china/news/detail/09-01-2020-who-statement-regarding-cluster-of-pneumonia-cases-in-wuhan-china

After praising China for quickly identifying and managing the situation so it doesn't get out of control they said "WHO does not recommend any specific measures for travellers. WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the information currently available."

Basically WHO gave everybody the green light to vacation in China which lost control of a situation that evolved into an epidemic. China didn't allow WHO's scientists and doctors in to evaluate the situation and help stop the virus so WHO took their word that they had it under control. When WHO was refused to evaluate the situation for themselves, it should've raised a big red flag and warnings to the international community should've started earlier.

As BillyB and everyone else here knows, the WHO is a UN Subsidiary. What do you think would happen if GonaHerpaSiphilAIDS showed up in the USA but wasn't reported for 30 days? The WHO would praise us too. Who is going to say bad things against the hand that feeds it? China Pays the WHO and doesn't want that cash to dry up when they say "Attached"
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 11, 2020, 07:37:52 PM
WHO gave their praise Jan 9 after China reported the virus showed up Dec 31.

http://www.who.int/china/news/detail/09-01-2020-who-statement-regarding-cluster-of-pneumonia-cases-in-wuhan-china

After praising China for quickly identifying and managing the situation so it doesn't get out of control they said "WHO does not recommend any specific measures for travellers. WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the information currently available."

Basically WHO gave everybody the green light to vacation in China which lost control of a situation that evolved into an epidemic. China didn't allow WHO's scientists and doctors in to evaluate the situation and help stop the virus so WHO took their word that they had it under control. When WHO was refused to evaluate the situation for themselves, it should've raised a big red flag and warnings to the international community should've started earlier.
as trump said during his little speech, 'virus have been around for a long time'.   In this situation look at how little has been done in the US to this point.  We (Along with other nations) have had weeks if not months to take a drastic yet possibly necessary action as china did.  We didn't.   All these weeks/months have gone by, china can't be blamed for that.  Some were even critical when china quarantined 100's of millions of their people.  They took the right approach, while we (The US) may have been downplaying the virus the whole time.  As we speak, I'm reading comments from trump fans still stating how the whole virus is a big hoax and exaggeration.  As is usual, there is plenty of blame that we (The US) can take for our own delayed and potentially inadequate response. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on March 11, 2020, 07:48:17 PM
as trump said during his little speech, 'virus have been around for a long time'.   In this situation look at how little has been done in the US to this point.  We (Along with other nations) have had weeks if not months to take a drastic yet possibly necessary action as china did.  We didn't.   All these weeks/months have gone by, china can't be blamed for that.  Some were even critical when china quarantined 100's of millions of their people.  They took the right approach, while we (The US) may have been downplaying the virus the whole time.  As we speak, I'm reading comments from trump fans still stating how the whole virus is a big hoax and exaggeration.  As is usual, there is plenty of blame that we (The US) can take for our own delayed and potentially inadequate response. 

Fathertime!

Fathertime,

As a Trump supporter we typically don't agree. But Let's assume today. There's 12 infected would you say inadequate? As the MOST (moobs enhanced) traveled through country yet still only having 1,300 6 weeks later. Would you say that's decent? If not? Please tell me what is your definition of winning? I want to know so I can contact my official.

And possibly, if China did the right approach? What would the left have done if you were infected and took you away? Would they be happy?

in re: to this "have had weeks if not months to take a drastic yet possibly necessary action as china did." exactly what drastic measures are you talking about? I assume like Bernie. Best in theory and not practice.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 11, 2020, 07:59:42 PM
Fathertime,

As a Trump supporter we typically don't agree. But Let's assume today. There's 12 infected would you say inadequate? As the MOST (moobs enhanced) traveled through country yet still only having 1,300 6 weeks later. Would you say that's decent? If not? Please tell me what is your definition of winning? I want to know so I can contact my official.

And possibly, if China did the right approach? What would the left have done if you were infected and took you away? Would they be happy?

in re: to this "have had weeks if not months to take a drastic yet possibly necessary action as china did." exactly what drastic measures are you talking about? I assume like Bernie. Best in theory and not practice.
If we let the likes of good old Mooby travel here who knows how many people he will infect with his hard head, fists, and toilet paper.   It seems odd to ban European travel, yet not UK.  Has to be for political reasons, nothing else makes sense.

Yeah, blaming china is silliness, and pointless.  We (The US) have had plenty of time to get serious if the virus is the threat we seem to think it is now.  Yet it is only now, and even now it isn't full measures like China took whereby much of the nation was on some sort of lock down.    We (The US) is big on pointing fingers, without taking responsibility ourselves.  That is probably a reason we have become ostracized or ignored by so many in recent years. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on March 11, 2020, 08:02:17 PM
world health organization praised china for it's response to the virus
Of course they would--- both WHO and China live off your dime
Quote
it seems that those in the know disagree with how you are directing your anger
"In the know"?  (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/undecided.gif)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 11, 2020, 08:07:44 PM
Of course they would--- both WHO and China live off your dime  "(http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/undecided.gif)
While I work very hard, I think I live well off of china's dime actually....

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 11, 2020, 08:27:53 PM
In this situation look at how little has been done in the US to this point. 


Considering WHO was telling other nations trade and travel to and from China is fine, America still took action stopping flights and is not as bad off as Europe. Our spy agencies were probably listening on phone calls of Chinese government officials losing control and planning a coverup. Time will let us know how bad we got hit but so far, Europe has a much higher infection rate than America does.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 11, 2020, 09:02:42 PM

FT, although WHO praised China in January, Trump imposed major flight restrictions on China in January. Article below. If you check anti Trump fact checking truth o meter sites, they will tell you Trump is lying about travel ban but evidence below that Trump took action in January.

http://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/31/business/china-travel-coronavirus.html

http://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/the-facts-on-trumps-travel-restrictions/

A few days later States complain about Trump's new rules that happened suddenly creating chaos and Democrats criticize there's no prior planning to him making a decision. I guess they wanted Trump to wait longer before enacting the restrictions. Are there any articles out there show Democrats would've taken action faster?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/02/03/coronavirus-airport-quarantine/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 11, 2020, 09:11:25 PM
FT, although WHO praised China in January, Trump imposed major flight restrictions on China in January. Article below. If you check anti Trump fact checking truth o meter sites, they will tell you Trump is lying about travel ban but evidence below that Trump took action in January.

http://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/31/business/china-travel-coronavirus.html

http://www.factcheck.org/2020/03/the-facts-on-trumps-travel-restrictions/

A few days later States complain about Trump's new rules that happened suddenly creating chaos and Democrats criticize there's no prior planning to him making a decision. I guess they wanted Trump to wait longer before enacting the restrictions. Are there any articles out there show Democrats would've taken action faster?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/02/03/coronavirus-airport-quarantine/
I wouldn't compare trump to democrats who aren't in the office of the president...i'd compare trumps actions to what his actions could have been.  I'm not necessarily being critical of trump at this point, but reality is, if he knew the virus was extremely serious, some will say he didn't take enough steps to protect americans.  Others might continue to state that the virus isn't much different than the flu and we are already doing too much. 
Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on March 11, 2020, 09:46:14 PM
... but reality is, if he knew the virus was extremely serious, some will say he didn't take enough steps to protect americans.   
He suggested right away possibly stopping flights from China and the Main Slime Media blasted these "heartless" remarks.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 11, 2020, 10:24:28 PM
I see from  quotes that RWD's  anti-American baldy from California has been blaming Trump and touting China. 

Why can't we work together as we face this vicious pathogen, a pathogen that treats Republican and Democrats equally.  Why do we need to recall how China put the world at risk: 

              -  The Chinese government knew in December, perhaps earlier, the outbreak was serious and resembled SARS (severe acute respiratory syndrome).

              -   When a doctor who posted on social media in late December that he had quarantined in his hospital seven patients suffering from a SARS like illness, the Wuhan police targeted him.  That doctor, named Li Wenliang, died on February 7, at a young 34, certainly not elderly

              -  The Chinese did not stop travel to and from Wuhan until late January, allowing a vast number of Wuhan citizens to travel out of the city, many to international locations, only to infect others there and continue the global spread.   

               In summary, the Chinese were more interested in "production" than "prevention," and the world is reaping the whirlwind. 

Yes, the Chinese took draconian measures, something only an autocratic government could implement.  But it was too late.   The only good news is that China now reports data suggesting they are beginning to contain the epidemic within their borders.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 11, 2020, 10:31:26 PM
I just now watched CNN Chis Cuomo coverage of Trump's speech. 

Cuomo remarked less about the substance and more about Trump's breathing and body language.  Acosta of course accused Trump of misleading the public, having to walk back some lies, xenophobia, etc.  David Gregory partially defended Trump, yet criticized him for not showing empathy about the Italians.  Gupta just gave the facts, useful facts.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 12, 2020, 12:01:33 AM
Considering WHO was telling other nations trade and travel to and from China is fine, America still took action stopping flights and is not as bad off as Europe. Our spy agencies were probably listening on phone calls of Chinese government officials losing control and planning a coverup. Time will let us know how bad we got hit but so far, Europe has a much higher infection rate than America does.

BillyB

Which Schengen nation banned flights to/ from China first....WAY ahead of other EU nations..

How has that worked out for them...?

Surely, it wasn't Italy?...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on March 12, 2020, 12:39:55 AM
BillyB

Which Schegen nation banned flights to/ from China first....WAY ahead of other EU nations..

How has that worked out for them...?

Surely, it wasn't Italy?...

You're obviously doing well mobs. 10x your size and yet? Let us know next week sweet cheeks.


I just now watched CNN Chis Cuomo coverage of Trump's speech. 

Cuomo remarked less about the substance and more about Trump's breathing and body language.  Acosta of course accused Trump of misleading the public, having to walk back some lies, xenophobia, etc.  David Gregory partially defended Trump, yet criticized him for not showing empathy about the Italians.  Gupta just gave the facts, useful facts.     

I saw that too. Personally as noted, i am a trump supporter. So watching this was incredible. Even for TDS....


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 12, 2020, 12:45:45 AM
You're obviously doing well mobs. 10x your size and yet? Let us know next week sweet cheeks.




Who what is 10 times whose size...context?


Can anyone translate?....






Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on March 12, 2020, 12:56:42 AM
Oh  my bad moobs. Was laughing at your expense. Honestly it happens a lot sweetheart. Was talking about economy. Carry on babygirl.

How's the TP industry?

Who what is 10 times whose size...context?


Can anyone translate?....
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: IvanM07 on March 12, 2020, 01:07:29 AM
I wouldnt imagine that those low born with raisins as their women care. but my FiL is begging me to stay there, offering one of the 3 flats I kinda hate the US so why not? Especially with upper class. I guess is Americans are better than Oirishhh. Anyhow I am grateful for an incredible FiL. I'm flying there tomorrow.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 12, 2020, 06:06:38 AM
BillyB

Which Schengen nation banned flights to/ from China first....WAY ahead of other EU nations..

How has that worked out for them...?

Surely, it wasn't Italy?...

Banning flights from China is not enough. The Chinese can then just get a flight to Germany and then fly into Italy. That is why Trump is banning not just flights but also individuals that pass through or lives in China and now many European nations regardless of what flight they are on.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 12, 2020, 06:25:54 AM
Banning flights from China is not enough. The Chinese can then just get a flight to Germany and then fly into Italy. That is why Trump is banning not just flights but also individuals that pass through or lives in China and now many European nations regardless of what flight they are on.

Hmm,

..and when did Italy do THAT ?


If ever there was a time to remember the idiom "When in hole  .. stop digging " ..This is it, BillyB

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 12, 2020, 06:26:22 AM
I see from  quotes that RWD's  anti-American baldy from California has been blaming Trump and touting China. 


Humorous distortion.   The US has to take the blame for not acting sooner if the virus was deemed as dangerous as it seems to be now.  I remember Billyb commenting a long time ago at it's severity, if Billyb knew, why didn't the US top leadership know? 


               In summary, the Chinese were more interested in "production" than "prevention," and the world is reaping the whirlwind.       
what could also be said is the US and trump were more interested in the economy then saving US lives.  We could have taken steps much sooner but choose not to. 


Yes, the Chinese took draconian measures, something only an autocratic government could implement.  But it was too late.   The only good news is that China now reports data suggesting they are beginning to contain the epidemic within their borders.     

So as I read it seems you say China's system of governance is superior to the USA's in a time of crisis like this.  I don't agree that the US couldn't have done what china did, if it was deemed necessary.  It would have been painful, yet it may turn out it was necessary. 

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 12, 2020, 07:08:32 AM
Banning flights from China is not enough. The Chinese can then just get a flight to Germany and then fly into Italy. That is why Trump is banning not just flights but also individuals that pass through or lives in China and now many European nations regardless of what flight they are on.


Er, do you think Italy doesn't know / didn't know  how / when a Chinese national arrived in the Schengen zone ?   With every post the hole you dig for yourself re DUH just gets deeper

Example: The USA hasn't got a CLUE where a  Cypriot has been - they are not in Schengen ..


I'm not convinced such measures are helpful, now ...  but for sure ... the US is a little 'later' than Italy ( and many other nations) in all facets of dealing with the virus ..


Can you imagine anyone could be 'envious' of such a situation ? ...


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 12, 2020, 08:32:43 AM
Why can't we work together as we face this vicious pathogen, a pathogen that treats Republican and Democrats equally.  Why do we need to recall how China put the world at risk:

I stopped wondering a day after last general election.

Don't mind FT so much...when things gets down and dirty due to lockdowns, you can trust the fact he'll be first in line to file for Trump's economic assistance program.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 12, 2020, 10:03:52 AM
I stopped wondering a day after last general election.

Don't mind FT so much...when things gets down and dirty due to lockdowns, you can trust the fact he'll be first in line to file for Trump's economic assistance program.
How mean! 

I recently could have filed for workman’s comp due to recent injuries on the job  but didn’t ask for a thin dime.  I have no reason or intent to take trump federal funds if they become available.  I have plenty to survive even if business goes down the crapper with my dwindling stockpile of TP.    If things were to be so bad as to force me into insolvency the nation would be in extreme distress and federal dollars wouldn’t matter much anyway.  If need be I’ll just buy TP from Billyb or Trenchcoat at their bloated capitalist pricing.   

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 12, 2020, 11:05:55 AM
Er, do you think Italy doesn't know / didn't know  how / when a Chinese national arrived in the Schengen zone ? 


You said Italy had a flight ban. So that means flights coming from China are banned but flights from Germany are not banned. If I were a Chinese national and had an important business trip or vacation to Italy I didn't want to miss, I would just schedule a flight to Germany and then fly on a German plane into Italy. If you can find where Italy banned individuals, Chinese or not, that came China like Trump did, please show me.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 12, 2020, 02:00:08 PM
It simply amazes me how wacky the Democrats desperation really is. A *No Ban Act* in these times? What is wrong with these numbnuts?

http://www.oann.com/democrats-expected-to-postpone-no-ban-act-vote/

>> "The head of the Federation for American Immigration Reform has also called out the Democrats’ new legislation. He claimed their priorities lie in taking political shots at the president instead of putting the American people first.

“The American people elected President Trump to make difficult decisions in the name of public safety and the national interest,” said Dan Stein. “For House Democrats to cripple his power to protect Americans from foreign threats, including terrorists and pandemics, is a shocking dereliction of their duty as elected representatives.”

However, it is likely that President Trump will veto the bill if it passes. <<
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 12, 2020, 02:47:28 PM
You said Italy had a flight ban. So that means flights coming from China are banned but flights from Germany are not banned. If I were a Chinese national and had an important business trip or vacation to Italy I didn't want to miss, I would just schedule a flight to Germany and then fly on a German plane into Italy. If you can find where Italy banned individuals, Chinese or not, that came China like Trump did, please show me.

And SillyBillyB walked onto yet ANOTHER punch..

Naturally, I am aware ppl circumvented Italy's ban...as will those who can fly via non Schengen nations...

You knew that was my point.....right?

 :deadhorse:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 12, 2020, 03:02:56 PM
How mean! 

I recently could have filed for workman’s comp due to recent injuries on the job  but didn’t ask for a thin dime.  I have no reason or intent to take trump federal funds if they become available.  I have plenty to survive even if business goes down the crapper with my dwindling stockpile of TP.    If things were to be so bad as to force me into insolvency the nation would be in extreme distress and federal dollars wouldn’t matter much anyway.  If need be I’ll just buy TP from Billyb or Trenchcoat at their bloated capitalist pricing.   

Fathertime!

One never say never! You'll likely be tripping over jone on who gets on the front of the soup line :devil:

BUT - at least one 'expert' who's been on the frontline have more confidence with our system than we give them (it) credit for. Despite CDC's untimely bad decision, WHO's Dr. Bruce Alyward have a point.

Quote
Aylward said he had “phenomenal confidence in the ability of the U.S. to get this under control,” noting how many epidemiologists in China — which has succeeded in minimizing new cases — had trained in the United States.

“They know how to do this stuff," he said of the U.S. experts. “And they've trained thousands of people across the U.S. to get organized. You mobilize that army, and you beat this most recent of enemies.”

But, again, future may dictate otherwise.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 12, 2020, 03:31:08 PM
Came across an intersting minor spat between BY and RU ..

Russia's Pervy ( First ) channel was running a story that Belarus found 'insulting'...reporting a death due to COVID-19 on the 3rd of March.
http://belsat.eu/en/news/fake-diplomats-set-to-address-russian-tv-report-on-coronavirus-death-in-belarus/ (http://belsat.eu/en/news/fake-diplomats-set-to-address-russian-tv-report-on-coronavirus-death-in-belarus/)









Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 12, 2020, 03:36:58 PM
Naturally, I am aware ppl circumvented Italy's ban...as will those who can fly via non Schengen nations...


But you were bragging that Italy took quick action. They took quick action but they didn't take appropriate action. As I look back at the events, I'm glad Trump and his team were smarter than other governments. Banning individuals who past through China recently regardless of what plane or country they are flying from was the smart thing to do. The circumventing of Trump's ban was not possible by hopping onto another plane from another country. If you been in China recently, you can't come in. Now if you been to certain European countries recently, you can't come in.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 12, 2020, 03:43:41 PM
But you were bragging that Italy took quick action. They took quick action

OMG, BillyB is on a roll of FAILS...

No..I pointed out Italy was was ahead in testing...and implementing schemes to try to thwart the spread...

I did NOT claim they worked.. If fact I do believe I pointed out why flight bans haven't worked...

'Trampu's' 'ban' has already morphed into allowing Schengen zone flights to land at 15 designated airports ...to screen arrivals..



NOT what he said in his address...






 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on March 20, 2020, 08:54:13 AM
China Spins Tale That the U.S. Army Started the Coronavirus Epidemic
Published March 13, 2020
http://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/13/world/asia/coronavirus-china-conspiracy-theory.html


Inside China’s campaign to blame the U.S. for the coronavirus pandemic
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/inside-chinas-campaign-to-blame-the-us-for-the-coronavirus-pandemic-2020-03-15


China’s new top priority: spinning coronavirus — and blaming the US
http://nypost.com/2020/03/17/chinas-new-top-priority-spinning-coronavirus-and-blaming-the-us/


Chinese diplomat accuses US Army of creating coronavirus
epidemic in Wuhan

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/defense-national-security/chinese-diplomat-accuses-us-army-of-creating-coronavirus-epidemic-in-wuhan


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on March 20, 2020, 10:33:28 AM
New reports reveal the dark money network working to politicize coronavirus
http://americansforpublictrust.org/news/new-reports-reveal-the-dark-money-network-working-to-politicize-coronavirus/


Democrat Dark Money Groups To Spend Millions Politicizing Wuhan Flu
http://thefederalist.com/2020/03/19/democrat-dark-money-groups-to-spend-millions-politicizing-wuhan-flu/


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 20, 2020, 02:55:05 PM

Democrat Dark Money Groups To Spend Millions Politicizing Wuhan Flu


That will be a new low.  We should not expect less from such a miserable lot of people.   

To set this up, the media must first scare the people.  And they are trying!   Did you hear the reporter today ask Trump if he was "scared."  Trump jumped all over his ass. 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 20, 2020, 07:24:40 PM
That will be a new low.  We should not expect less from such a miserable lot of people.   

To set this up, the media must first scare the people.  And they are trying!   Did you hear the reporter today ask Trump if he was "scared."  Trump jumped all over his ass.
If anything, it is the republicans that sound utterly miserable.   

Listening to talk radio in the car, all they could talk about is China, China, China....just distorting and playing the blame game.  Trying to gin up hate and demonize...as evidenced by your post, it is succeeding.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: calmissile on March 20, 2020, 10:28:00 PM
That will be a new low.  We should not expect less from such a miserable lot of people.   

To set this up, the media must first scare the people.  And they are trying!   Did you hear the reporter today ask Trump if he was "scared."  Trump jumped all over his ass.

I am beginning to think reporters are the most stupid idiots in our society.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 20, 2020, 11:56:31 PM
..and *I* despair when I hear Russians, Chinese, Iranians and Americans (and wack job Brits) blaming each other ... with their 'conspiracy theories'..



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 21, 2020, 09:06:29 AM
I am beginning to think reporters are the most stupid idiots in our society.

I did not report it correctly.  The NBC reporter asked Trump what he would say to people who are scared. 

Not as bad as asking Trump if he was scared, yet an unnecessary question because Trump was talking to all Americans of all levels of anxiety.  It was not a FDR "...fear itself" speech." Instead,  Trump and the task force reported  the significant  Federal actions undertaken to address the virus.  And they reiterated the guidelines.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 30, 2020, 06:41:18 AM

Moving on, the latest bill that was passed should’ve included premium pay for all the medical personnel currently doing battle with this virus. Not only because of the constant hazard, long hours but also the fact they are also putting their own family in harms way every time they come home if they haven’t made personnel to separate themselves during this crisis.

We’ve tried to give our VA great leeway lately and methinks these folks are on the same battle fronts as our soldiers.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 30, 2020, 08:15:20 AM
Moving on, the latest bill that was passed should’ve included premium pay for all the medical personnel currently doing battle with this virus. Not only because of the constant hazard, long hours but also the fact they are also putting their own family in harms way every time they come home if they haven’t made personnel to separate themselves during this crisis.

100% agree for metropolitan areas such as NYC and NOLA. 

When in Vietnam, the US Army  added to my base salary not a small amount termed "combat pay."  I never fired my weapon in a year, yet the threat was there, especially the few times I went into the bush (e. g., bridge recon, engineering resupply). 


Quote
We’ve tried to give our VA great leeway lately and methinks these folks are on the same battle fronts as our soldiers.

A good question I could ask my golfing friend Doc with the VA ER.  I haven't seen him in a month.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 30, 2020, 08:31:42 AM
A good question I could ask my golfing friend Doc with the VA ER.  I haven't seen him in a month.   

I hope he's been wiser than you re self-isolating ...  Your wife was correct to be worried about you ...


Take care....   I need to have someone to fight over a bone with ....
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 30, 2020, 08:47:05 AM

Take care....   I need to have someone to fight over a bone with ....

I welcome a scientific challenge.  Spirited political debate and the ramblings by autistic members are not helpful.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 30, 2020, 08:48:34 AM
MORE GOOD NEWS IN THE HEALTH INDUSTRY

The US and world's healthcare industry (pharmaceuticals,  medical devices, insurance, etc.) are refocused around combating the CV-19 virus.  New developments are rolling out at a fast and furious pace. Here are three from the weekend and today:

Testing - FDA approved a new testing method developed by Abbott Labs that can produce "positive" results in 5 minutes and confirm "negative" results in 15 minutes.   The best part, the analytical device is small and can be deployed at point of use (e. g., hospitals, urgent care,....).  Also, The sample collection is also easier than the current method, and does not require changing PPE.  The stock ABT is up over 7% today. 

Therapeutic Drugs -    FDA yesterday gave two anti-malaria drugs emergency approval to treat COVID-19 .  This possibility was discussed at RWD earlier.    The approval allows 30 million doses of hydroxychloroquine sulfate and 1 million doses of chloroquine phosphate to be donated to the Strategic National Stockpile. The doses of hydroxychloroquine sulfate were donated by Sandoz, while the chloroquine phosphate was developed by Bayer Pharmaceuticals.

The products will be "distributed and prescribed by doctors to hospitalized teen and adult patients with COVID-19, as appropriate, when a clinical trial is not available or feasible," HHS said.

Vaccines - Johnson & Johnson said Monday human testing of its experimental vaccine for the coronavirus will begin by September and it could be available for emergency use authorization in early 2021.  Using new technology J&J is modifying an existing framework that has proven use as safe and beneficial for other viruses.   JNJ stock is also up 7% today. 

WE WILL DEFEAT THE COVID-19 SCOURGE!

THE SUN WILL COME OUT TOMORROW!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 30, 2020, 08:51:07 AM
I welcome a scientific challenge.  Spirited political debate and the ramblings by autistic members are not helpful.

Ah, yes ... 'Scientific' like your President's 'hunches' and drug recommendations ? ...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 30, 2020, 09:06:26 AM
Ah, yes ... 'Scientific' like your President's 'hunches' and drug recommendations ? ...

Please! 

 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 30, 2020, 10:51:57 AM
MORE GOOD NEWS IN THE HEALTH INDUSTRY
.........
Therapeutic Drugs -    FDA yesterday gave two anti-malaria drugs emergency approval to treat COVID-19 .  This possibility was discussed at RWD earlier.    The approval allows 30 million doses of hydroxychloroquine sulfate and 1 million doses of chloroquine phosphate to be donated to the Strategic National Stockpile. The doses of hydroxychloroquine sulfate were donated by Sandoz, while the chloroquine phosphate was developed by Bayer Pharmaceuticals.

The products will be "distributed and prescribed by doctors to hospitalized teen and adult patients with COVID-19, as appropriate, when a clinical trial is not available or feasible," HHS said.

Anecdotal or otherwise, there’s enough reasons and results out there that gives this treatment ‘hope’. Although I was under the knowledge it was far more effective if used in conjunction with azithromycin.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 30, 2020, 11:12:27 AM
If the current reported numbers are correct, presently NY has 66,500 cases (worldometer), of which, 9,517 are hospitalized (http://www.nytimes.com/news-event/coronavirus). That's a 14% hospitalization rate. I believe I heard Cuomo's statement where he said 33% are in ventilators...making the number roughly at > 3,200 ventilators...

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 30, 2020, 11:47:07 AM
Here is an interesting information if true...

I have been trying to find accurate reports for California, just like Florida have in their state's web-data regarding the coronavirus, but have difficulty getting one. Not for the state and not for our city/county. You would think with silicon valley established in our state that our information delivery will be over and above...nyet.

So I guess in reading this article (http://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/28/us/coronavirus-data-privacy.html), it actually gives a viable reason as to why not.

Quote
...
California, which has more than 4,600 cases, is a microcosm for how inconsistent the distribution of information has been during the pandemic. Los Angeles County provides a rough age distribution of patients and breaks down the cases into more than 140 cities and communities. On Friday, for example, the county reported 21 cases in Beverly Hills, 28 in the city of Santa Monica and 49 in the neighborhood of Melrose.

Across the United States there is even less consistency. New York is listing cases by age bracket, gender and borough despite calls for more localized reporting. Connecticut lists data by town. Florida provides its residents with a wealth of data on the pandemic. The state’s Department of Health has a detailed dashboard and reports showing the spread of the virus — rich with data on the cities affected, the number of people tested, the age brackets of patients, whether they are Florida residents, and the number of cases in nursing homes.

Health departments in the Bay Area make the case that releasing more granular data could heighten discrimination against certain communities where there might be clusters. The first cases in the Bay Area were among ethnic Chinese residents returning from trips to China.

“Pandemics increase paranoia and stigma,” said Dr. Rohan Radhakrishna, the deputy health officer of Contra Costa County, across the Bay from San Francisco, which provides only the total number of cases in the county on its website. “We must be extra cautious in protecting individuals and the community.”

In Santa Clara, health officials say they cannot disclose how many cases are found in each city because of the nation’s strict medical privacy law, the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, or HIPAA, signed by President Bill Clinton in 1996....

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on March 30, 2020, 12:04:11 PM
GQ,

This one help? 

http://www.politico.com/interactives/2020/coronavirus-testing-by-state-chart-of-new-cases/

Can also use http://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html and drill down using the Admin2 tab.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 30, 2020, 12:59:35 PM
GQ,

This one help? 

http://www.politico.com/interactives/2020/coronavirus-testing-by-state-chart-of-new-cases/

Can also use http://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html and drill down using the Admin2 tab.

It actually uses the same source, or maybe this source is the one LA is getting them from..

http://www.publichealth.lacounty.gov/phcommon/public/media/mediapubhpdetail.cfm?prid=2287

The info above it not really up-to-date. If you check Florida's state health department site, it's by far and away much more informative and much more 'current' than the one we have in California/LA.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on March 30, 2020, 01:22:15 PM
GQ,

Yes, the Florida site is pretty nice.  http://fdoh.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/74c7375b03894e68920c2d0131eef1e6

Quite likely in the future there will be a standardized format for all allowing for easier comparison.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 30, 2020, 01:27:15 PM
I like the fact they give you hospitalization count. Instead of just stating x-amount of positive infection. Knowing this bit of information is actually helpful. At least for me to help gauge the severity of these cases.

It must be Florida is so full of retired folks that have nothing to do but create websites (lol).

-----------------------------------

I was reading some reports the other day as to what 'medical condition' is proving to be the most vulnerable to this virus. It seems that diabetes is at the top of the list, followed by high blood / coronary conditions. Little wonder why countries like Norway is experiencing very low death rate, relatively, since they have a very low number of diabetics. I'm not sure if this is part of the problem in Italy/Spain.

FTR- worldwide, Pacific Islander / Asian, have by far the largest number of people with diabetes.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on March 30, 2020, 01:38:58 PM
Doesn't really look like diabetes played much of a role here, but of course those with advanced diabetes mostly on their last leg could well be more succeptible.

http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/indicators/SH.STA.DIAB.ZS/rankings

Heard also that maybe blood type may be a factor, that folks with O may not get hit as hard.  Not counting on it though.

http://heavy.com/news/2020/03/coronavirus-blood-type-type-a-type-o/

So much to still learn.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 30, 2020, 02:14:09 PM
Can also use http://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html and drill down using the Admin2 tab.


Same map, click on Admin 0, click on US, go to the John Hopkins map in the central panel and zoom in.  This will can take you to data for "districts" within each state.

In Florida districts are counties and include all cities incorporated within each county.  I don't know how California is organized as I see more dots than counties.  New York is not apparent either - NYC is one dot when it is composed of five boroughs, which were counties at one time. 

I use this to follow my cousin (a research microbiologist)  in Los Alamos, NM and see her county has zero cases.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 30, 2020, 02:17:59 PM

Trump and Co briefing happening right now. Over a million tests completed which is more than any nation has done. Over 100,000 tests happening each day now which is more daily testing than any other nation is doing.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 30, 2020, 02:28:17 PM

Yes, the Florida site is pretty nice.  http://fdoh.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/74c7375b03894e68920c2d0131eef1e6


Strange!  The layout of your Florida dashboard differs from mine even though both are FL Dept of Health.  Data are the same.  Both use the same "site icon" as the John Hopkins map.   

I wonder given the massive effort underway at all level of government that we may have overlap.  Anyway, a mystery that will remain unsolved.

http://fdoh.maps.arcgis.com/apps/opsdashboard/index.html#/8d0de33f260d444c852a615dc7837c86

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 30, 2020, 02:30:34 PM

Trump said as manufacturing of ventilators outpace our needs, we will send ventilators to Italy, France, Spain and other countries. Trump also said he will send other supplies to Italy.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on March 30, 2020, 02:32:17 PM
Trump and Co briefing happening right now. Over a million tests completed which is more than any nation has done. Over 100,000 tests happening each day now which is more daily testing than any other nation is doing.

NO WAY!!!

Trump is terrible and wants everyone to die!!
Especially the poor and minorities!!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 30, 2020, 02:47:17 PM

Just watched a lot of business leaders speak. America's powerhouse industry is firing on all cylinders in the war against the virus. The fact Trump is already talking about shipping supplies to other nations tell me shortages of supplies at home will not be a problem anymore.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on March 30, 2020, 03:16:51 PM
Trump said as manufacturing of ventilators outpace our needs, we will send ventilators to Italy, France, Spain and other countries. Trump also said he will send other supplies to Italy.

I am sure useful supplies will be appreciated but hope a drop in demand over the next 10 days or so won't necessitate more ventilators.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 30, 2020, 03:17:41 PM
NO WAY!!!

Trump is terrible and wants everyone to die!!
Especially the poor and minorities!!

'Trampu' is full of it ..sadly, as you'll discover .. the HARD way ..

1/ What sort of 'tests' - given there are two sorts - with varying accuracy depending if you are in early stages or finished the symptoms  ?

2/ http://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing-source-data (http://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-testing-source-data)  Australia ( example) has tested 113615 - which is proportionately WAY ahead of the US in numbers and percentiles of the population

3/ BillyB and ventilators ..  by the time you're really hit .. you may indeed have more ventilators than staff who are well enough to operate them ((   Your 'leader' just keeps on spoutin' stuff that is going to look foolish down the line ((





Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 30, 2020, 03:23:36 PM
I am sure useful supplies will be appreciated but hope a drop in demand over the next 10 days or so won't necessitate more ventilators.


Hopefully Italy and the rest of Europe's curve dramatically decreases soon to the point you won't need help. If Europe doesn't need supplies, I'm sure Africa and South America will use them. They are behind the rest of the world but they will soon have to deal with their own outbreaks.

Nations still need to partner up to create enough test kits for everybody in the world. Another task is to create an accurate test. No test kit in the world is 100% accurate. China has the production means but many of their tests are unreliable.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 30, 2020, 03:29:14 PM
I am sure useful supplies will be appreciated but hope a drop in demand over the next 10 days or so won't necessitate more ventilators.

Let's hope so.  I imagine this winter we may have photos of surplus ventilators lined up like surplus bombers in boneyards after WWII.  WARTIME SPENDING!!!!

(http://www.airplaneboneyards.com/images/walnut-ridge/walnut-ridge-airfield-boneyard-aerial-november-1945.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: calmissile on March 30, 2020, 04:25:02 PM
Don't know about the rest of the country, but the weather in So Cal is beautiful today.  75 deg F.  It's days like this during the shutdown that I can take advantage of it and get some long overdue projects done.  The streets are mostly empty and even in the neighborhood there are very few people out walking which is unusual.  Seems like most people in the area are respecting the quarantine in place orders.
 We will overcome this epidemic.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 30, 2020, 08:27:42 PM
NO WAY!!!

Trump is terrible and wants everyone to die!!
Especially the poor and minorities!!
What can be said is that Trump doesn't want everybody to vote!

 
Trump says Democrats' push for expanded voting threatens Republicans

....Trump said that Democrat-proposed voting reforms to the $2.2 trillion rescue package passed last week by Congress — which were largely cut from the deal — would have led to “levels of voting, that if you ever agreed to it you’d never have a Republican elected in this country again.”

Democrats have pushed to mandate that states make plans to expand early voting and mail-in balloting for the fall election, in the event that the coronavirus pandemic makes in-person voting unsafe.....


  http://news.yahoo.com/trump-says-democrats-push-for-expanded-voting-threatens-republicans-172601374.html   (http://news.yahoo.com/trump-says-democrats-push-for-expanded-voting-threatens-republicans-172601374.html)

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 30, 2020, 08:35:57 PM
Don't know about the rest of the country, but the weather in So Cal is beautiful today.  75 deg F.  It's days like this during the shutdown that I can take advantage of it and get some long overdue projects done.  The streets are mostly empty and even in the neighborhood there are very few people out walking which is unusual.  Seems like most people in the area are respecting the quarantine in place orders.
 We will overcome this epidemic.
Today I thought there were less people out and about.  Another guy I spoke with today said he thought there was more.   The freeway was smooth sailing not much different than last week.  I had two hot younger ladies come into my shop drinking Budweiser beer while driving on the road, and ready to 'party it up' with me if I had any interest. That's what I get for not wearing my stupid mask today.   

Fathertime! 

F

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 31, 2020, 08:06:16 AM
Hopefully Italy and the rest of Europe's curve dramatically decreases soon to the point you won't need help. ...

Yeppers. I sure hope it really does slow to a stop in Italy. It's been ridiculous how it got hit so hard. Spain, too. The sad part in all of these is those who perished are looked upon as statistical dots despite every single one of those who died do have grieving family and friends - including those who spent the time treating and trying to save their lives.

Speaking of virus and dying, I don't know...I still have a difficult time wrapping my head around this comparison table. Exactly 'why' this current *pandemic* is creating this much attention and disturbance.

COVID-19 US STATISTICS (http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/)

2018-2019 US INFLUENZA STATISTICS (http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html)

What am I missing here? Even if you project comparable number of months for COVID-19, it would still fall short to the Influenza's toll in comparison.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 31, 2020, 08:12:40 AM
What can be said is that Trump doesn't want everybody to vote!

 
Trump says Democrats' push for expanded voting threatens Republicans

....Trump said that Democrat-proposed voting reforms to the $2.2 trillion rescue package passed last week by Congress — which were largely cut from the deal — would have led to “levels of voting, that if you ever agreed to it you’d never have a Republican elected in this country again.”

Democrats have pushed to mandate that states make plans to expand early voting and mail-in balloting for the fall election, in the event that the coronavirus pandemic makes in-person voting unsafe.....


  http://news.yahoo.com/trump-says-democrats-push-for-expanded-voting-threatens-republicans-172601374.html   (http://news.yahoo.com/trump-says-democrats-push-for-expanded-voting-threatens-republicans-172601374.html)

Fathertime!

Dude!

Do me a freaking favor and post your silly political BS in quasi-Brexit II/msmob trenchcoat dialogue thread (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=d4e5e036b55873ed21393db0511d598e&topic=24217.msg530917;topicseen#new) please..

Or if you feel lacking and out of place for ruining that thread, then post your pro-China BS in this thread (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=21530.msg530899#new).

If all else fails, learn f@#king mandarin, and start freely posting your thoughts in some CCP chat sites, man.

Why do you feel so compelled to trot your stupid anti-US thoughts everywhere? Do you not get enough attention at home?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 31, 2020, 08:44:23 AM

Do me a freaking favor and post your silly political BS ..


Why do you feel so compelled to trot your stupid anti-US thoughts everywhere? Do you not get enough attention at home?

As opposed to 'someone' getting busted by a fellow US citizen .. when asked " where did I post anything that was untrue"? ...and all that 'someone' could respond was " wait until November", some 'riposte' ..

Wow, someone's suffering from a severe case of 'hypocrisitis'..


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on March 31, 2020, 08:49:19 AM
What am I missing here? Even if you project comparable number of months for COVID-19, it would still fall short to the Influenza's toll in comparison.

GQ,

Is a good question.  The answer is pretty simple though - the unknown.  We don't know much about this virus at all vs decades of experience with influenza for which we have vaccines (albeit not perfect) and meds that help. We also know it is seasonal. Our healthcare systems are set up to handle the aftermath of the flu.  We obviously do not have the capacities to handle this new virus.

Also, note that most of the population does not get it and signs are (HK) that it may easily come back for more, and more, and more. We don't know if it will be a seasonal thing. We don't really know yet how long immunity lasts.  Although the virus seems pretty stable, we don't know if it might morph, making future vaccines useless or if it can become even more dangerous.

Left to run on its own, it could easily slam dunk influenza all year long.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on March 31, 2020, 09:24:33 AM
What can be said is that Trump doesn't want illegals, dead people
or people to vote more than once!
Fathertime!

I fixed that for you
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 31, 2020, 10:01:40 AM
GQ,

Is a good question.  The answer is pretty simple though - the unknown.  We don't know much about this virus at all vs decades of experience with influenza for which we have vaccines (albeit not perfect) and meds that help. We also know it is seasonal. Our healthcare systems are set up to handle the aftermath of the flu.  We obviously do not have the capacities to handle this new virus.

Also, note that most of the population does not get it and signs are (HK) that it may easily come back for more, and more, and more. We don't know if it will be a seasonal thing. We don't really know yet how long immunity lasts.  Although the virus seems pretty stable, we don't know if it might morph, making future vaccines useless or if it can become even more dangerous.

Left to run on its own, it could easily slam dunk influenza all year long.

BC-

I can understand the part of this novel virus as such, and very likely the 'influenza infection cases' are consistent today as they've always had been, thus making the COVID-19 cases we see today as adding to the burden in our healthcare facilities. This is causing the additional angst, additional equipment needs, etc...justifying the additional 'attention' and effort.

I will just take the US case for the sake of discussion. We have so far 3,100 deaths. This is spread out over a month. 100 deaths/day. At the same token, in the same time span, deaths by accidents, crimes, etc..had also decreased - so why again the reaction just doesn't seem to fit what is really more or less 'normal'?

As of today, over a million testing resulted in 165,000 positive cases. Of this number to date, 3,100 have died. That's less than 2% dead from the 'known' active cases, or 37,200 deaths/yr. Per capita would be relatively miniscule.

Auto accidents, on a yearly average, causes 38,000 deaths in the US. Yet, we don't freeze our highways and roads, much less the entire economy, to curb auto accidents. Heck, I don't remember witnessing the type of reaction we have today when HIV/AIDS first came to light back in the '80s either.

Anyway, I'm just perplexed as to the seeming lost of perspective. Not saying this isn't serious and should be taken for granted. I'm just saying the reaction to me doesn't seem to 'fit' the usual atypical (I know, redundant) novel pandemics.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 31, 2020, 10:46:17 AM

COVID-19 US STATISTICS (http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/)

2018-2019 US INFLUENZA STATISTICS (http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html)

What am I missing here? Even if you project comparable number of months for COVID-19, it would still fall short to the Influenza's toll in comparison.




It's easy GQ. Everybody in the world experienced influenza multiple times in their lives. Only 780,000 confirmed people experience COVID-19 and out of a world population that's 1 out of every 10,000 people or .0001% of the population of the world. While 100% of the people in the world experiences influenza, it doesn't fill up our hospitals but .0001% experiencing COVID-19 will start to overwhelm hospitals. Multiply the problems you see now by 10,000 by giving everybody a taste of COVID-19, it's easy to see what will happen.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on March 31, 2020, 10:51:01 AM

It's easy GQ. Everybody in the world experienced influenza multiple times in their lives. Only 780,000 confirmed people experience COVID-19 and out of a world population that's 1 out of every 10,000 people or .0001% of the population of the world. While 100% of the people in the world experiences influenza, it doesn't fill up our hospitals but .0001% experiencing COVID-19 will start to overwhelm hospitals. Multiply the problems you see now by 10,000 by giving everybody a taste of COVID-19, it's easy to see what will happen.

BillyB

If you think only 780k have had this virus you just proved you've not been paying attention

Tests in many countries simply aren't implemented - in the UK - the numbers MAY be up to 10 times those 'reported' ... the govt has said this

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 31, 2020, 10:55:09 AM

It's easy GQ. Everybody in the world experienced influenza multiple times in their lives. Only 780,000 confirmed people experience COVID-19 and out of a world population that's 1 out of every 10,000 people or .0001% of the population of the world. While 100% of the people in the world experiences influenza, it doesn't fill up our hospitals but .0001% experiencing COVID-19 will start to overwhelm hospitals. Multiply the problems you see now by 10,000 by giving everybody a taste of COVID-19, it's easy to see what will happen.

BillyB, yes...part of what I said upthread is the hospitalization rate for influenza is constant every year (more or less), we can almost anticipate its seasonal barrage - so anything COVID-19 causes today will simply be 'an additional' burden to current hospitalization demand.

But the point I was trying to make (and likely not doing a good job of it) is, this (COVID-19) 'rate' of hospitalization presently is still relatively much lower to be demanding this much chaos and reaction. Especially since the 'model' we see today is (as in the case of NY), only 15%+/- of hospitalization occurs for the active cases we know today. Big numbers yes, but remember the decreasing numbers of ICU/hospitalization caused by other mishap as a result of this crisis e.g. crimes, accidents, etc...is also freeing up and decreasing the hospitalization rate at the same time.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on March 31, 2020, 11:04:16 AM
The number of deaths in IT skyrocketed a good bit after the rise in cases.  Most of the serious ICU cases stick around for a long time.  This is why the death rate in Italy is still high even as the numbers of new infections drop.

Manufacturers work every day to make driving in cars safer and law enforcement always increases efforts to remove unsafe drivers from our roads.  In other words we are for a good part 'in control' and have ways to make driving safer.

We don't feel 'in control' of this virus, thus this 'unknown' that causes death also causes fear and a sense of helplessness.

Doing nothing (as in staying home) - which is what most of us are doing now is a very unusual 'cure' we are not used to.  The virus is controlling us instead.

As for the media, it's the biggest story in a long time.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 31, 2020, 11:18:49 AM
anything COVID-19 causes today will simply be 'an additional' burden to current hospitalization demand.


For some hotspots in the world, entire hospitals needed to be built just to handle this virus and hotels needed to quarantine those who have mild symptoms. COVID-19 has been around for only a few months and it's in it's infancy. We can't let it grow up. It's already changed the way we behave. At the current pace with immediate damage to our economies without no signs of reversal, civilization will begin a decline. Hopefully we will find a vaccine or at least a treatment. To date, nothing has proven to work.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 31, 2020, 12:50:42 PM
Dude!

Do me a freaking favor and post your silly political BS in quasi-Brexit II/msmob trenchcoat dialogue thread (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=d4e5e036b55873ed21393db0511d598e&topic=24217.msg530917;topicseen#new) please..

Or if you feel lacking and out of place for ruining that thread, then post your pro-China BS in this thread (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=21530.msg530899#new).

If all else fails, learn f@#king mandarin, and start freely posting your thoughts in some CCP chat sites, man.

Why do you feel so compelled to trot your stupid anti-US thoughts everywhere? Do you not get enough attention at home?
Dude!  You can't handle it then don't read it.   I was responding to another political statement.  Just because you have a bias, doesn't give you authority to selectively call out political statements from one side and not the other and think it will carry any weight with me.

Clearly you don't get enough attention, so I'll be delighted to continue to give you plenty to comment angrily about.   :D
Fathertime!   


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 31, 2020, 12:55:29 PM
I fixed that for you

That wasn't a fix, that was changing what Trump actually did say and what poor GQ all upset.   Trump doesn't want people dead, he just doesn't want them all to vote.  The country needs their labor but not their input on who is president!   

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 31, 2020, 12:58:23 PM
Dude!  You can't handle it then don't read it.   I was responding to another political statement.  Just because you have a bias, doesn't give you authority to selectively call out political statements from one side and not the other and think it will carry any weight with me.

Clearly you don't get enough attention, so I'll be delighted to continue to give you plenty to comment angrily about.   :D
Fathertime!   

Here you go!

http://www.century21global.com/for-sale-residential/China/Wuhan
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 31, 2020, 01:02:49 PM
Here you go!

http://www.century21global.com/for-sale-residential/China/Wuhan
Sorry you are stuck with me here in the states.  You would like to stifle effective dissent .  It is easy to stifle idiotic dissent, but the recent objection I made regarding direct comments by Trump not wanting people to vote is too egregious to argue on that topic so let the distraction begin. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on March 31, 2020, 01:05:53 PM
dissent?

ahh.. I see corrected.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 31, 2020, 01:22:18 PM
I had just finished listening to California's Governor Newsom. I am encouraged that at least for the time being the nation's governors, at least most of them, are donning *American* instead of (R)/(D)/(I).

Gov. Newsom stated that obviously not all states have equal purchasing power, and unfortunately there will be instances where this pandemic wouldn't care which state have better ability to don ample resources to help combat this epidemic. That said, apparently the governors will maintain a common resource that will be fluid according to the need, and not according to the state who can afford better afford them. This will at least eliminate a bidding war against each other with states having greater purchasing power monopolizing the greater lot.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 31, 2020, 05:25:02 PM

Manufacturers work every day to make driving in cars safer and law enforcement always increases efforts to remove unsafe drivers from our roads.  In other words we are for a good part 'in control' and have ways to make driving safer.

Not only do we feel "in control" when driving a car,  we voluntarily accept the risk when getting behind the wheel.   We want to go from Point A to Point B.     

Quote
Doing nothing (as in staying home) - which is what most of us are doing now is a very unusual 'cure' we are not used to.

You never met my younger son.

 
Quote
As for the media, it's the biggest story in a long time.

Unemployed, distancing people are bored.  They are ravenous for information. 

How big was the Spanish Flu news story in 1918-1919?   Killed 40-50 million around the globe.  No TV then, little  mitigation.

The largest of them all - God Forbid - the Bubonic Plague (14thC).  Estimated to have killed 30 - 50% of Europe's population.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 31, 2020, 05:44:54 PM
I had just finished listening to California's Governor Newsom. I am encouraged that at least for the time being the nation's governors, at least most of them, are donning *American* instead of (R)/(D)/(I).

I noticed such in the brief CA news shown here.   This occurs with Newsom and other Guvs because  under Federalism Governors are responsible for public health within their states.  They are executive leaders and take the reins in the need for a concerted community-county-state-national effort where politics has no place. 

I assert the states and counties will do a better job than if we had some mega Federal public health agency.   The task of coordination is not easy given the complexity of the public-private relationships. 

I would fail if I did not mention we are most dependent upon the doctors, nurses, and hospitals along the battlefront.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on March 31, 2020, 07:08:57 PM
How big was the Spanish Flu news story in 1918-1919?   Killed 40-50 million around the globe.  No TV then, little  mitigation.The largest of them all - God Forbid - the Bubonic Plague (14thC).  Estimated to have killed 30 - 50% of Europe's population.
Quote
From September through November of 1918, the death rate from the Spanish flu skyrocketed. In the United States alone, 195,000 Americans died from the Spanish flu in just the month of October (http://www.history.com/news/spanish-flu-deaths-october-1918). And unlike a normal seasonal flu, which mostly claims victims among the very young and very old, the second wave of the Spanish flu exhibited what’s called a “W curve”—high numbers of deaths among the young and old, but also a huge spike in the middle composed of otherwise healthy 25- to 35-year-olds in the prime of their life.

http://www.history.com/news/spanish-flu-second-wave-resurgence
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 31, 2020, 09:40:26 PM
As for the media, it's the biggest story in a long time.


Long time since a big story happened for them? The Impeachment of Donald Trump was big for the media. Although the impeachment trial finished just last month, the Donald was focused on the virus back in January restricting travel from China. Democrats were more focused on restricting Trump from being President.

How big was the Spanish Flu news story in 1918-1919?   Killed 40-50 million around the globe.  No TV then, little  mitigation.

The largest of them all - God Forbid - the Bubonic Plague (14thC).  Estimated to have killed 30 - 50% of Europe's population.   

For plagues caused by bacteria, we have antibiotics. For flus, we have vaccines. We don't have anything for coronaviruses. No vaccines and no treatments. During WWI and the Spanish Flu, the world didn't face a big recession because the war kept industries working to max potential. This coronavirus pandemic will be like the Spanish Flu and Great Depression combined if we don't beat it. We can't work during outbreaks. We can try to work but if we didn't take action against the virus, hundreds of millions of people in the world can die.

Some experts say Dr. Fauci is ridiculously optimistic with his 12-18 month estimate for a vaccine. They said they were sure Dr. Fauci knew that too. But Dr. Fauci is on the Trump bandwagon of giving people hope. The Swine Flu vaccine was created in a very fast 6 months. What is the average time for a vaccine for a coronavirus to be created? Don't know. All previous attempts to create a vaccine for a coronavirus failed.

http://www.cnn.com/2020/03/31/us/coronavirus-vaccine-timetable-concerns-experts-invs/index.html


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 01, 2020, 02:25:34 AM
But Dr. Fauci is on the Trump bandwagon of giving people hope.

WHAT a load of tripe..

Giving 'hope' wasn't about telling folks there'd be nothing to worry about ...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 01, 2020, 07:43:11 AM

Giving 'hope' wasn't about telling folks there'd be nothing to worry about ...

You are still dwelling on politics?!?!   

For miserable old men like you, the "half-full glass" approach will not work.  Miserable old men die alone, in their own piss and shit. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 01, 2020, 08:01:54 AM
Now I realize the moderator protects this particular poster, but can't we at least have a thread without 'him' pestering every thread with his stupid political stupidity? It is an absurdity with the fact this idiot is NOT even a citizen, or a resident of the US, including not even being IN the country.

Why is this crap allowed to happen for this idiot? Everyone, please DO NOT FEED THE TROLL! Let him wallow in his own misery...alone. *Happy* people just don't do this sh!t.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 01, 2020, 08:53:12 AM
It would be obvious for me to be interested in what's going on in my state. So I surf a lot of information not only for our county, but statewide. As of right now, I've been fairly disappointed in how our state fares regarding giving up-to-date information to its residents. Statewide - it is rated a 'B'. but that would actually be worse if not for certain counties' effort to spend the time and virtually serve its respective resident with great information.

The one I liked so far is Sonoma County. Close to wine country, and is just north of California's richest county, Marin. It's still an upscale area with Santa Rosa being its main city. The area is generally fairly pristine / quaint, if not outright an awesome place to live in. My wife loved this area.

Here's their Coronavirus reporting website: Sonoma County (http://sonomacounty.maps.arcgis.com/apps/MapSeries/index.html?appid=21a1653b79ba42039ff22bcb85fa5b19)

One thing that I noted that seem interesting is the number of *uninsured* folks. Interesting because noting the household median income, @ $81K +, then looking at the number of people on the poverty level. Anyway, at least their reporting is pretty comprehensive.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 01, 2020, 09:23:08 AM
As of right now, I've been fairly disappointed in how our state fares regarding giving up-to-date information to its residents. ....The one I liked so far is Sonoma County. Here's their Coronavirus reporting website: Sonoma County (http://sonomacounty.maps.arcgis.com/apps/MapSeries/index.html?appid=21a1653b79ba42039ff22bcb85fa5b19)


Excellent site.  On a population basis, about the same "test results" with an even smaller percentage as reported for my county.  Hospitalization rate same  as my county.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 01, 2020, 09:58:35 AM
The county area is fairly 'large' relative its population, which is a huge plus during this crisis.

For LA county, there's 534 new cases, making a total of 3,000+. Our county's hospitalization rate had doubled in the last 3 days. Of the 'positive cases, 20% are hospitalized (600+). Of this number, 25% of them are in ICU(150). La County reported 19 deaths in one day. The highest day toll so far. Death toll = 54. Numbers are increasing, but still relatively miniscule against total population, 10.2 million.

Adding to the angst, our statewide prison system policy had started 'releasing' alleged non-violent criminals to the street ahead of their sentences. Many are 'sex offenders'. How that is classified as 'non-violent' is beyond me. Though this isn't isolated in California alone. The likes of Cosby, Avenatti, Madoff. R. Kelly et al are requesting early releases to keep them from 'harm'. I'm surprised Harvey Weinstein hadn't followed suit.

Strange days we're all living in these days.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 01, 2020, 11:09:12 AM
You are still dwelling on politics?!?!   

While 'we' on this side of the pond ( esp any poster in N. Italy ) have endured posts 'praising' our respective leaders 'inaction', you mean ...?


For miserable old men like you, the "half-full glass" approach will not work.  Miserable old men die alone, in their own piss and shit. 

IF this was some sort of 'please pointing out the huge mistakes of our respective leaders' .. it is falling on deaf ears, Gator ..


I've been pretty vocal about the UK govt BSing folk about heath and care workers being tested ... they have been (and still are) spending time in self-isolation as they do not know if they've had the virus .. needlessly

That's not 'political' ... it's poor management - given the time the UK had to order test kits ...'We'v'e' had drive in, drive through' test centres opened and closed ....lots of upbeat bollox that turned out to be meaningless ... 


This is not about 'optimism' .. I'm eternally optimistic ... it's about monumentally poor management





 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 01, 2020, 11:16:03 AM
Now I realize the moderator protects this particular poster

I have been warned for simply responding to your repeating lies ..  is that 'protection' ?

but can't we at least have a thread without 'him' pestering every thread with his stupid political stupidity? It is an absurdity with the fact this idiot is NOT even a citizen, or a resident of the US, including not even being IN the country.

Are you for REAL ? ... Since when has thread had a 'sign' on it saying US citizens only ? Did you check the title ?   

Why is this crap allowed to happen for this idiot? Everyone, please DO NOT FEED THE TROLL! Let him wallow in his own misery...alone. *Happy* people just don't do this sh!t.

 :deadhorse:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 01, 2020, 12:46:18 PM

For miserable old men like you, the "half-full glass" approach will not work.  Miserable old men die alone, in their own piss and shit. 
Interesting how often a few of the more miserable old men of the board either wish death upon someone or hint at it in graphic terms.  Willing to say this all over a political disagreement.  interesting, and telling

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 01, 2020, 12:52:30 PM
Interesting how often a few of the more miserable old men of the board either wish death upon someone or hint at it in graphic terms.  Willing to say this all over a political disagreement.  interesting, and telling

Fathertime!

Good evening, FT

I don't believe Phil was wishing 'bad' on me .. merely suggesting "no one loves you", so I'll 'die alone' ..

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on April 01, 2020, 05:08:29 PM
A Major Medical Staffing Company Just Slashed
Benefits for Doctors and Nurses Fighting Coronavirus

http://www.propublica.org/article/coronavirus-er-doctors-nurses-benefits
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 02, 2020, 09:22:53 AM
Heard just a brief snippet on national news last night that USA intelligence is saying that China actually had > 25,000 deaths in Wuhan.

And several days earlier, wife told of reading that people keeping track of burials there also noting how they were much higher than the 3,000 or so reported by officials.

I stated my position on this several days ago also (without proof or statistics) that I did not believe at all the 3,000 number being reported by China.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 02, 2020, 09:29:32 AM
I stated my position on this several days ago also (without proof or statistics) that I did not believe at all the 3,000 number being reported by China.

This echoes reports from other observers  claiming indirect data suggest the actual number of deaths was higher.   These observers examined number of urns sold, cancellations of individual telephone accounts, etc.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 02, 2020, 09:58:59 AM
New York Infectious Physician - "I think this is the beginning of the end of the pandemic"

The antimalarial drug hydroxychloroquine is being administered to an increasing number of infected patients.  No scientific study has been completed, yet the early unscientific data continue to show promise.

One New York physician is a recognized authority on infectious disease. He is administering the drug with azithromycin to 72  high risk cases involving  comorbidity   (e. g., obesity, over 70% were diabetic or prediabetic).  He started the trail use five days ago, and so far none of the patients had to be intubated.  He expressed much hope in widespread success, saying "I think this is the beginning of the end of the pandemic."

http://www.foxnews.com/media/dr-stephen-smith-on-effectiveness-of-hydroxychloroquine-with-coronavirus-symptoms-beginning-of-the-end-of-the-pandemic

Dr. Smith's "battlefied" use does not qualify as something the FDA would accept as a scientific trial, yet it gives hope.  Fingers crossed.   News media such as NY Times who had previously been dismissive are now reporting positive results:  "Malaria Drug Helps Virus Patients Improve, in Small Study."

 http://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/01/health/hydroxychloroquine-coronavirus-malaria.html

       
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 02, 2020, 10:17:30 AM
I had brought this matter up before. Some remarked the idiocy of 'using an antibiotic to treat a virus'. Yet, the use of Azithromycin in conjunction with hydroxychloroquine had been widely used in So. Korea, France and even in China as a treatment against this pandemic - and had been showing more than mere 'promising' results...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVbM87sT6fA&feature=emb_logo
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 02, 2020, 10:24:21 AM
Heard just a brief snippet on national news last night that USA intelligence is saying that China actually had > 25,000 deaths in Wuhan.

And several days earlier, wife told of reading that people keeping track of burials there also noting how they were much higher than the 3,000 or so reported by officials.

I stated my position on this several days ago also (without proof or statistics) that I did not believe at all the 3,000 number being reported by China.

When Chinese were arresting people for talking about the mysterious pneumonia going around in December and January, that was a clue China lies and covers things up. We don't need an intelligence report to tell us that.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 02, 2020, 11:31:19 AM
Well, FWIW, all the numbers in all nations, whether it's progressive confirmed cases or # virus-related deaths are all erroneous anyway. They're mostly an attempt to measure what is otherwise unknown. Confirmed cases means nothing as it doesn't denote actual and absolute volume of infection.

For example, the US daily numbers is NOT increasing in the way it is being represented. +700, +1,200, +600, +50, etc...means nothing. The actual rate of infection is 'unknown'. Unless everyone gets tested, everyone, we have no idea what 'new cases of infection really is. Testing everyone is the only way we can determine the true number of the infected from the rest. Until then, 'new cases' means absolutely zero. Lockdowns/quarantine are designed as a result of the estimated average period of incubation. Even that is unknown.

As for the # of dead, that number is also meaningless. That's just one of the end the result of this epidemic. A consequence of what is really important for all of us to know - actual # of infection.

For example: How is it actually helping any of us to 'see' over 10,000 people had already died in Italy? How will it 'help' if China reported whatever death count they actually have in China?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 02, 2020, 12:08:10 PM
How will it 'help' if China reported whatever death count they actually have in China?



It would've helped a lot because people would've understood the seriousness of this virus back in January instead of dismissing it as no more dangerous than the flu.

January 22 China had a few hundred infections, 17 deaths and told WHO this virus was not transferable between humans and people who are infected ate infected meat at a meat market so WHO recommended travel to China was safe. If China reported 10,000 dead and a hundred thousand people infected, that would set off alarms and China wouldn't be able to convince the world over a hundred thousand people ate contaminated meat and the virus was not transferable between humans. WHO and other nations would've taken action faster and more lives would be saved. Can't save everybody but we could've taken action earlier.

Many nations are going to be humiliated by the lack of response. Many politicians and health experts will manipulate the numbers to show their citizens/voters they done a good job compared to other nations. The truth will never be known but what we are seeing reported today is bad enough.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 02, 2020, 01:04:36 PM
You think Billy? Double the count to 6,000+. Triple it to 9,000+...I highly doubt it would've changed the attitude of anyone anywhere.

Italy had 5-6,000 dead, yet they were still partying on the beaches of Florida, Mardi Gras parade in New Orleans, filling the subways of New York. Hell, they ran the LA marathon here...

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local/la-marathon-underway-despite-coronavirus-concerns-winners-announced/2325043/

Now, had China, or even Italy, reported this unknown virus had infected say, 50, 60, 70 or even 80% of the population of Wuhan/Lombardy region (had they known), then MAYBE would have definitely get everyone's attention.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 02, 2020, 02:15:26 PM
You think Billy? Double the count to 6,000+. Triple it to 9,000+...I highly doubt it would've changed the attitude of anyone anywhere.


It is estimated that China's numbers should be multiplied by 40. I was important for China to warn governments of the danger which in turn can save lives. China could've told the truth with a massive amount of infections and deaths and told governments this disease is highly infectious and to begin mass production of PPE, ventilators, and build hospitals. By warning other governments, those governments could begin preparing what they need to save lives. Now all governments are behind in making test kits and other supplies.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 02, 2020, 02:49:07 PM
It is estimated that China's numbers should be multiplied by 40. I was important for China to warn governments of the danger which in turn can save lives. China could've told the truth with a massive amount of infections and deaths and told governments this disease is highly infectious and to begin mass production of PPE, ventilators, and build hospitals. By warning other governments, those governments could begin preparing what they need to save lives. Now all governments are behind in making test kits and other supplies.

Factor of 40, sure. That would definitely be alarming. There were reports the virus was already infecting people as early as November, even in Italy. GPs were reporting simultaneous severe cases of unexplained pneumonia but just didn't know then a novel virus was the cause.

All I'm saying however is, numbers reported today are mostly irrelevant/meaningless in the sense it doesn't give any of us any accurate accounting of ACTUAL infection count. US is already at 250K mark, but it's possible 1 million, or even 2, are already infected IN ADDITION.

Strange to me how fast Apple can manufacture billions of iPhone in less than a year's time, but we can't manufacture 400 million test kits in 4 months.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 02, 2020, 02:51:18 PM
It is estimated that China's numbers should be multiplied by 40. I was important for China to warn governments of the danger which in turn can save lives. China could've told the truth with a massive amount of infections and deaths and told governments this disease is highly infectious and to begin mass production of PPE, ventilators, and build hospitals. By warning other governments, those governments could begin preparing what they need to save lives. Now all governments are behind in making test kits and other supplies.

Excellent post.
I learned 30-40 years ago that Chinese could simply not be trusted and knew nothing about honor, keeping their word, etc.
They would negotiate for weeks, agree to terms, and then come in the next day and want to modify everything.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 02, 2020, 03:01:29 PM
THE GRIM REAPER

Projected daily deaths reaches its peak in the 3rd week of April at about 2,700 deaths per day. 

(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=http://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/CD7Y4URLNZEM7F6KENEHXS2R24.png&w=1440)


By June-July the total deaths are projected to be around 91,000 within a range of 40,000 - 170,000.    

(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=http://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/M4S2BDR66ZAZFBDZAUILLXVUXI.png&w=1440)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 02, 2020, 03:37:00 PM
Very interesting.  Thanks for posting Phil.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 02, 2020, 04:57:18 PM
Strange to me how fast Apple can manufacture billions of iPhone in less than a year's time, but we can't manufacture 400 million test kits in 4 months.


Apple had years of development, testing and time to gear up plants to create their phones. The test kits for COVID-19 was developed and produced in less than a month. No test kit is 100% accurate so we have a ways to go before getting things perfected.

I learned 30-40 years ago that Chinese could simply not be trusted and knew nothing about honor, keeping their word, etc.


I remember reading a story of American pilots crash landing in China after bombing Japan. Some pilots died. The Chinese could've left the bodies to rot but they picked up the dead American pilots and passed them village to village and through a group effort the pilots passed through many Chinese hands and were delivered back to the Americans. The amazing thing is nothing was stolen. The gold wedding bands some of the pilots wore were still on their fingers. Through war and suffering, many Chinese could've been desperate and easily tempted to steal something from a dead man but they had enough honor and integrity to help deliver the dead bodies and their possessions back to their families. The current Chinese government is the problem, not the Chinese.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 02, 2020, 06:41:40 PM
There were reports the virus was already infecting people as early as November, even in Italy.


I remember reading people from other nations saying their flu season last year seemed exceptionally high and make a claim it could've been coronavirus. I seriously doubt any of it's true. If coronavirus hit any nation in November, doctors would've sounded the alarm like the Chinese doctors did and soon after hospitals would be overwhelmed. Whatever happened in Italy in November wasn't coronavirus.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 02, 2020, 06:51:44 PM
So here's the irony of how these reports actually affect anyone's attitudes, especially the people in charge. A lot of people are now glorifying NY's governor in how he is handling NY's COVID-19 condition. Heck, they're even talking about maybe having him represent the Democratic party's presidential nominee...

People are very short-sighted, or maybe I should say, gullible is likely more appropriate. This is Andrew Cuomo (http://www.axios.com/new-york-first-coronavirus-case-cuomo-risk-low-7eafa8d9-5148-4fbc-93ae-42affa09c313.html)

Quote from: Andrew Cuomo, March 1, 2020
There is no reason for undue anxiety—the general risk remains low in NY. We are diligently managing this situation &will provide info as it becomes available.

That was roughly 30 days after Trump banned incoming flights from China, and Italy was already getting devastated by the virus. Fast forward to present day New York, 30 days after that tweet, New York have almost as much active cases as Italy, and at times Gov. Cuomo is out there blaming Trump for not being 'prepared'.

It's ironic that people blame China, deservedly so, but why rely anything on someone when you already know that someone is unreliable to begin with?

January 27, 2020. 2 months since China began their battle with the virus, 3 days prior to Trump implementing the flight ban, here's CDC's statement (http://www.axios.com/americans-low-risk-of-coronavirus-cdc-687ce124-dbc9-4f67-803e-6f70d4249f77.html):

Quote from: CDC
The risk of U.S. residents becoming infected by the coronavirus that's devastating China remains low right now, public health officials said Monday, even as there's growing pressure to ramp up U.S. and international pandemic preparedness.

Death Rate? Nah...in hindsight, no one care and took it seriously enough. However, had China instead reported infection number, maybe just maybe, people would've taken a little more attention.

Quote from: BillyB
Apple had years of development, testing and time to gear up plants to create their phones. The test kits for COVID-19 was developed and produced in less than a month. No test kit is 100% accurate so we have a ways to go before getting things perfected.

There was a 20% failure rate. 20%. Which easily means it was accurate 8 out of 10 times. Today, they've only tested a little over a million. Getting close to identifying our 80% of our population on whether who is infected or not is so much better than where we are today.

JIMHO.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 02, 2020, 06:54:09 PM
I remember reading people from other nations saying their flu season last year seemed exceptionally high and make a claim it could've been coronavirus. I seriously doubt any of it's true. If coronavirus hit any nation in November, doctors would've sounded the alarm like the Chinese doctors did and soon after hospitals would be overwhelmed. Whatever happened in Italy in November wasn't coronavirus.

I posted an Italian doctor's admission he was receiving reports from GPs in Lombardy region that numerous unexplained severe cases of pneumonia was happening even as far back as November.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 02, 2020, 07:18:26 PM
I posted an Italian doctor's admission he was receiving reports from GPs in Lombardy region that numerous unexplained severe cases of pneumonia was happening even as far back as November.


The Italian government should dig up the dead bodies and test them for the virus. Chances are Italy was hit by something else because if Italy had the virus in November, they would've been on fire the same time or earlier than China.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 03, 2020, 08:55:49 AM

Captain of an aircraft carrier reassigned after he allowed his letters to his superiors to leak out. I'm pretty sure he won't ever attain the rank of admiral.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/exclusive-commander-of-coronavirus-stricken-aircraft-carrier-reassigned-not-thrown-out/ar-BB125M2S?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 03, 2020, 08:58:41 AM
I WAS going to post this, but waited for a 'Murican ..

The Captain did the right thing and will be treated in the same way as the Chinese 'whistle-blower' Doctor ... 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 03, 2020, 09:48:52 AM
The Captain did the right thing and will be treated in the same way as the Chinese 'whistle-blower' Doctor ...


The Captain did the right thing about caring for his sailors but failed to the right thing when communicating through his superiors. The captain either didn't use secure channels to communicate with his superiors or let his letter to the Pentagon leak out. He was negligent and deserved to be relieved of his command of the ship. The ship needs a leader that cares about the sailors and knows how to behave properly.

Some people think this virus is no dangerous than the flu. Some people think this virus will kill everybody. I suspect the captain being one who greatly fears the virus. He's supposed to be the kind of person that will go to war and be in harms way, not run away.

Although we aren't in a war time situation and options are available, the captain criticizing the Pentagon for not acting fast enough was out of line. He basically questioned his superiors about how much they care about the sailors. Contrary to the Captain's belief, a ship with people who have an infectious disease just can't go immediately dock somewhere. Permission needs to be obtained by federal, state, and local governments which is not an easy task with all those entities involved. Trump had to ask Florida's governor to accept two civilian cruise ships. The Pentagon got that aircraft carrier a place to dock and unload faster than any civilian cruise ship companies could for their own ships infected with passengers. The captain should've realized his superiors hands were tied until a government gives them permission to dock. The captain is a smart guy but not smart enough.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on April 03, 2020, 10:31:09 AM
(http://mamasgeeky.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/coronavirus-meme-1.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 03, 2020, 10:59:02 AM
As long as we're on humour, someone sent me this the other day.  Some may not like it but we should be able to laugh at ourselves sometimes.

I remember chuckling at some Obama potshot memes as well, so here it is:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 03, 2020, 11:05:58 AM
The Captain did the right thing about caring for his sailors


End of

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 03, 2020, 11:06:26 AM
As long as we're on humour, someone sent me this the other day.  Some may not like it but we should be able to laugh at ourselves sometimes.

I remember chuckling at some Obama potshot memes as well, so here it is:

Okay BC....I'll give you a 2-minutes of chuckle on that one  :devil:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 03, 2020, 11:14:36 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 03, 2020, 11:30:01 AM

End of

Now go worry about the more than a dozen cruise ships that are sitting around Australia. The tiny nations those ships are registered in that they pay taxes to can't handle all the ships problems.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/no-port-in-a-storm-australia-tells-virus-stricken-cruise-ships-to-go-home/ar-BB126RO0?ocid=spartanntp


Italy suspects Russia planting spies among the doctors Russia sent over?

http://www.yahoo.com/news/italy-russia-spar-over-alleged-coronavirus-spies-165449595.html


Cuomo seizing ventilators and telling private hospitals to sue him if they disagree.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/york-governor-vows-seize-ventilators-163116733.html


Also in the article:

The head of the International Monetary Fund says the recession sparked by the coronavirus pandemic is “way worse” than the 2008 global recession.

IMF managing director Kristalina Georgieva described the situation as “a crisis like no other”.

“Never in the history of the IMF have we witnessed the world economy coming to a standstill,” she said.

“We are now in recession, it is way worse than the global financial crisis and it is a crisis that requires all of us to come together.”

Ms Georgieva says 90 countries have already approached the institution for emergency financing.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 03, 2020, 11:41:24 AM

[Trump cartoon]


Good one.  I bet Trump would laugh at it, even if CNN's Jim Acosta delivered it. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 03, 2020, 12:09:45 PM
The Captain did the right thing about caring for his sailors but failed to the right thing when communicating through his superiors. The captain either didn't use secure channels to communicate with his superiors or let his letter to the Pentagon leak out. He was negligent and deserved to be relieved of his command of the ship. The ship needs a leader that cares about the sailors and knows how to behave properly.



http://www.thedailybeast.com/army-warned-in-early-february-that-coronavirus-could-kill-150000-americans?ref=author

Maybe Capt. Crozier got a similar briefing and saw no action.




Italy suspects Russia planting spies among the doctors Russia sent over?

http://www.yahoo.com/news/italy-russia-spar-over-alleged-coronavirus-spies-165449595.html


That's why all the pizzerias are closed, so no recipes can be stolen by spies.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 03, 2020, 12:32:25 PM
http://www.thedailybeast.com/army-warned-in-early-february-that-coronavirus-could-kill-150000-americans?ref=author

Maybe Capt. Crozier got a similar briefing and saw no action.


According to the link, the Army had a briefing in February. Trump took action in January. Army was a little behind. Trump already had medical experts advising him in January. The fact our CDC experts were denied entry by China didn't go unnoticed by Trump. Regardless how many articles you read by anti Trump media, you can't find an article by the media or statements by a Democrat about Trump not taking action against the virus fast enough in January. Why? Because they had more important things to do in January and February such as impeaching Trump. A virus wasn't even on their radar until Trump placed travel restrictions on China.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 03, 2020, 12:40:29 PM

Nations are returning hundreds of thousands, if not millions of PPE and test kits to China that fail to meet standards. This is a huge setback to nations that urgently need the supplies.

http://news.yahoo.com/chinese-government-rejects-allegations-face-192334486.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 03, 2020, 01:11:41 PM
Trump took action in January. Army was a little behind.

Was the Army really behind?

Quote
And again, when you have 15 people, and the 15 within a couple of days is going to be down to close to zero, that’s a pretty good job we’ve done.

D.J. Trump, February 26 2020

http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-vice-president-pence-members-coronavirus-task-force-press-conference/

Re-reading the transcript is quite depressing when one thinks what could have been done in all this time.  The president and NSC were all well aware.

First lockdowns in Italy 21 Feb.  All schools closed 4 March and the national lockdown began 9 March.

You keep bringing up Trump 'doing something' with incoming foreigners on flights as if this one act saved America...  Do you really feel that way today?


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 03, 2020, 01:49:07 PM
Was the Army really behind?

D.J. Trump, February 26 2020

http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-vice-president-pence-members-coronavirus-task-force-press-conference/

Re-reading the transcript is quite depressing when one thinks what could have been done in all this time.  The president and NSC were all well aware.

First lockdowns in Italy 21 Feb.  All schools closed 4 March and the national lockdown began 9 March.

You keep bringing up Trump 'doing something' with incoming foreigners on flights as if this one act saved America...  Do you really feel that way today?


Trump did a good job in that speech. He prevented panic although he knew what was coming. Panic will kill more than the virus. You have bought into the media narrative that Trump lies or didn't know what he was talking about months ago pertaining to the virus. You seem to think Trump who is surrounded by experts didn't have any projections other than the Army projection to look at so he was clueless.

 If only a couple dozen people died in early February and Trump disclosed the Army briefing notes that 150,000 Americans can die causing people stampede over each other and shoot each other for the last little food and toilet paper on the shelves with thousands dying, you guys would be the first to say Trump was reckless and stupid although he told the truth so he must be impeached because he doesn't know how to manage a crisis. Trump can't win with you guys.

As to your question, yes I feel that way today. Trump banned foreign nationals that were in China from coming to America. Trump then left governors in charge of their states to monitor their own situations. Many governors have stay at home orders. One state failed to act soon enough and that was NY. They now account for over a third of America's infections and over a third of America's deaths. NY is doing as bad as European nations. What about your leaders? They do everything right?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 03, 2020, 01:58:00 PM
Billy,

You're inventing the lamest of excuses - again... that Trump had it all figured out from the beginning. But ok you're entitled to believe it.

Why would the US panic from the truth?  No panic here, no panic in Germany, where is there panic elsewhere?  Are we Americans panicky?

New York is our Milan and nothing more.  Deaths are not limited to Milan nor will they be limited to New York.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 03, 2020, 02:15:33 PM
Why would the US panic from the truth? 


You complain when you didn't get the truth but if Trump gave the truth adding to deaths and suffering, you'd complain again. Trump can't win.

No panic here, no panic in Germany, where is there panic elsewhere?  Are we Americans panicky?


Can you show me some European articles where you got the truth early February claiming hundreds of thousands of people in Europe will die? You didn't get the truth and that is why Europeans didn't panic. But leaders over there don't get blamed like Trump because you like their politics.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 03, 2020, 02:35:02 PM
This is an eye popping reality of the US unemployment condition today when compared to as far back as 50+ years ago, including the financial collapse of 2008/2009.

http://www.macrotrends.net/1365/jobless-claims-historical-chart

Notice how the current jobless claim shot straight up in stark comparison from previous decades.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 03, 2020, 08:50:37 PM
I WAS going to post this, but waited for a 'Murican ..

The Captain did the right thing and will be treated in the same way as the Chinese 'whistle-blower' Doctor ...
EXCELLENT point. 

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 03, 2020, 09:52:04 PM
You complain when you didn't get the truth but if Trump gave the truth adding to deaths and suffering, you'd complain again. Trump can't win.

Can you show me some European articles where you got the truth early February claiming hundreds of thousands of people in Europe will die? You didn't get the truth and that is why Europeans didn't panic. But leaders over there don't get blamed like Trump because you like their politics.

Challenge accepted:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/924664


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/11/coronavirus-expert-warns-infection-could-reach-60-of-worlds-population[/url]



*I* don't like BoJo's 'politics' on Brexit, nor do I think the herd mentality approach was wise and 'we've' certainly NOT been test, test, testing like the WHO had recommended, so the UK  had no idea of the extent of the issue and has clearly not ordered enough PPE kit / tests for NHS staff

Unlike the US, we didn't have leaders making STUPID pronouncements on twitter / speeches as to how this virus would be eradicated ..



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 03, 2020, 10:32:10 PM
Challenge accepted:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/924664


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/feb/11/coronavirus-expert-warns-infection-could-reach-60-of-worlds-population[/url]


You failed the challenge. None of the articles say hundreds of thousands of UK citizens will die. One article said just over 1000 Chinese died. That's nothing for a country of 1.4 billion. There was once a UK government document leaked that said 500,000 UK citizens could die but that was leaked and not announced by your government because they don't want to create panic.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 03, 2020, 10:54:23 PM
You failed the challenge. None of the articles say hundreds of thousands of UK citizens will die. One article said just over 1000 Chinese died. That's nothing for a country of 1.4 billion. There was once a UK government document leaked that said 500,000 UK citizens could die but that was leaked and not announced by your government because they don't want to create panic.

Silly BillyB

IF I had used the 'leaked document' you'd have said I 'failed' because THAT was LATE February..

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-news-latest-deaths-uk-infection-flu-a9360271.html

IF said document had cased 'panic' .. ( on it' being leaked) why are so many people in the UK still more frustrated by weather being fine this weekend ..as  they can't go out ..despite all they know ( now ) about this virus ..?






 ..

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 04, 2020, 04:34:34 AM

D.J. Trump, February 26 2020...............

Re-reading the transcript is quite depressing when one thinks what could have been done in all this time.  The president and NSC were all well aware.


Why do you continue to inject your political partisanship?   

Trump's message was hope, not fear.  It was echoed by mainstream media.  Why don't you also criticize the concurrent remarks from New York's mayor and governor, who had the authority to issue and enforce a"stay at home" order earlier than they did.   

You have complimented Dr. Fauci. Why not mention his January 21 interview that coronavirus is not a major threat, nothing for US citizens to be worried about now. 

This crisis is still unfolding.  Time for all us to work together and do our part. 

The news from Italy is suggesting the apex of new cases has passed.  Splendid!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 04, 2020, 04:36:57 AM
Why are YOU so forgiving of his incompetence, Gator ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 04, 2020, 04:44:21 AM
Why are YOU so forgiving of his incompetence, Gator ?

Rhetorical question from a political partisan, less interested in what we can do together
 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 04, 2020, 06:34:02 AM
Why do you continue to inject your political partisanship?   

Should I subscribe to ad ignorantiam logical fallacies instead of fact?

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Trump's message was hope, not fear.  It was echoed by mainstream media.  Why don't you also criticize the concurrent remarks from New York's mayor and governor, who had the authority to issue and enforce a"stay at home" order earlier than they did.   

In order to express hope to overcome something, one has to define the hurdle.  Trump did not.  All states have one president who should lead using facts and not unfounded hope or arrogant gamble.  Are we not the United States?

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You have complimented Dr. Fauci. Why not mention his January 21 interview that coronavirus is not a major threat, nothing for US citizens to be worried about now


Science learns and adapts, politics does not learn nor adapt well.  I can imagine Dr Fauci had to deliberate hard to go against the political grain of his boss.  By sticking to the facts he gained the respect that bridges politics.

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This crisis is still unfolding.  Time for all us to work together and do our part.


Indeed, denial is over. We are having to do so now, but out of necessity and not vision.

The 'crisis' is now in its third iteration, the East, Europe and now the Americas.  Most all facts have been well known for some time now; what works, what not and what might. We're having to settle, unfortunately, for the latter

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The news from Italy is suggesting the apex of new cases has passed.  Splendid!

Yes, we've started the second quarter, but still far from halftime.  The 'curve' is now flat but we don't yet know for how long.  I heard Dr Birx the other day discussing models and kinda leaning on the Italian model as one that could be applicable for the US.  I hope it is at this point, but believe such may be overly optimistic as containment measures were very different.  It wasn't that long ago that here at RWD the number of infections, deaths and doctors having to split ventilators, apply triage protocols in Italy was somehow abhorrent and held up as a critique of 'socialized' systems.  Now we are beginning to feel and do the exact same things and view the Italian experience as a best-case scenario for the US.

All this is not politics Gator, it based on fact.  If I got anything wrong factually, please do let me know.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 04, 2020, 06:37:04 AM
Wife tells of friend in Ukraine whose sister works as MD in Belarus.

They have deaths from Corona . . . but are ordered to enter the cause of death as something else
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 04, 2020, 06:44:44 AM
ML,

Heart failure?  At the end that's what kills us all..  it simply stops beating.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 04, 2020, 08:40:21 AM
Science learns and adapts, politics does not learn nor adapt well.  I can imagine Dr Fauci had to deliberate hard to go against the political grain of his boss.  By sticking to the facts he gained the respect that bridges politics.
 

Early in the crisis, I showed Dr. Fauci  saying travel restrictions have little impact against the virus. He, an expert, agreed with WHO. Now we have nearly every nation in the world engaging in travel restrictions. Trump, who was massively occupied fighting off impeachment, had the sense to enact travel restrictions in January. Nobody, not even Dr. Fauci, seen something like this virus in their lifetime so even they didn't know the proper action to take.

China deceived. Most leaders of the World did nothing. WHO gave inaccurate info pertaining to the virus when educating nations and gave bad advice. The Democrats did nothing back then. California, Washington, NY, New Jersey, and Louisiana are the hardest hit States and they all have Democratic governors. All those people did much worse than Trump but you and a few others here criticize Trump harder. As a matter of fact, you don't criticize those to the left of Trump at all. Italy failed you. Your economy and whole way of life has changed because China failed you. Can you at least say one thing they did wrong without mentioning Trump? Or are you still trying to keep politics out of this?


why are so many people in the UK still more frustrated by weather being fine this weekend ..as  they can't go out ..despite all they know ( now ) about this virus ..?


You're like BC when you imply Europeans don't panic. Back in early March when UK had 116 cases and one death, you guys were clearing off the food market shelves. That's what the leaked document of 500,000 dead UK citizens encouraged. Of course your government wasn't painting such a dim picture because they didn't want you to panic.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51764225


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 04, 2020, 09:13:02 AM
BillyB,

You seem so butt-hurt by your 'leader's' volte face that you need to try to suggest 'panic', elsewhere.

Apart from some herd selfishness re toilet rolls, I am wishing some UK citizens 'got' that this is serious enough TO panic...and stay at home...

I am staying in a beautiful village...the house has a private garden and all is calm...no 'panic' is detected here......


I am not at the frontline, protecting only an elderly Ma ..

We are not experiencing the hardship of families with health workers and will not suffer from lack of funds.

As long as friends and family members remain remain healthy....No 'panic'..

I am VERY grateful to those who are risking their lives and cannot imagine their stress.






Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 04, 2020, 09:28:03 AM
You seem so butt-hurt by your 'leader's' volte face that you need to try to suggest 'panic', elsewhere.


There you go again talking only about Trump when leaders all around you done a worse job. You probably feel everybody to the left of Trump in Europe and in America had done a better job on handling the virus but you can't explain how.


I am staying in a beautiful village...the house has a private garden and all is calm...

We are not experiencing the hardship of families with health workers and will not suffer from lack of funds.


It's a good thing being separated from your wife for the last 2+ months isn't creating a hardship for you. Is that what you want us to believe? Hope it isn't true.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 04, 2020, 10:03:25 AM
BillyB defends the indefensible..

There you go again talking only about Trump when leaders all around you done a worse job. You probably feel everybody to the left of Trump in Europe and in America had done a better job on handling the virus but you can't explain how.

I can explain ... the videos of 'Trampu' before and now EXPLAIN ... 

More butt-hurt BillyB, getting all bent 'outta shape' and 'personal'

It's a good thing being separated from your wife for the last 2+ months isn't creating a hardship for you. Is that what you want us to believe? Hope it isn't true.

It's already been 2 months plus..  but then 'attentiveness' isn't your strong point .. but thank you for your 'concern' ..SC is watching a movie in Russian, while I watch in English ...  too many ad breaks on RU TV ..

Poka

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 04, 2020, 11:20:48 AM
Was the Army really behind?

D.J. Trump, February 26 2020

http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-vice-president-pence-members-coronavirus-task-force-press-conference/

Re-reading the transcript is quite depressing when one thinks what could have been done in all this time.  The president and NSC were all well aware.

First lockdowns in Italy 21 Feb.  All schools closed 4 March and the national lockdown began 9 March.

You keep bringing up Trump 'doing something' with incoming foreigners on flights as if this one act saved America...  Do you really feel that way today?

Don't you ever get tired of fostering numbnuts' narratives, BC? Italy's president still hosted Chinese delegates as though everything is honky dory as Italians had been dying of the disease that even prompted them to ban flights from China a week earlier.

How'bout Andrew Cuomo declaring the threat of COVID-19 is very low in New York and there's no need for anguish on March 2nd?

Your adopted country is ready to embrace China despite its current dire situation BECAUSE of China simply because it believes China is their future's cash register. In a global economic sense, that's akin to pimping its citizens to the Chinese, no?

France is willing to sign up with Jack Ma's Huawei's 5G in return to getting 1 billion face masks.

Trump may not be perfect, but BOY!, as an American, I feel so much better having him here than the folks that lead your adopted home.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 04, 2020, 12:28:55 PM
Don't you ever get tired of fostering numbnuts' narratives, BC?

No, I get tired of folks that attempt to support their version of the truth with substantiation that cannot be proven, so I reply with factual information.

Believe I stated such albeit using Latin.  BillyB's favourite discourse technique when backed in a corner, described in a clear and understandable way below:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaGEjZDgFJo
 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 04, 2020, 02:52:22 PM
Should I subscribe to ad ignorantiam logical fallacies instead of fact?

1.  You are selective with the facts you choose to present.  For 12 years I have watched you do the same, backing 100% of everything Obama did and 0% of what Trump has done. 

2.  Dwelling on politics degrades this thread, which I had hoped would center around medical science, public health developments, and national policies.  If you want to dwell on Trump's shortcomings (and he has many to choose from), I suggest the Trump Doctrine thread or maybe  new threads such as "How COVID-19 will Affect the 2020 Election," or something about which I know little,  "Will the Pandemic Change Global Affairs."   

3.  There will be time to count the bodies and judge the role and response of the US government, the individual states,  the local communities, the medical community, and the public.  It will be more factual and comprehensive than your preliminary snipes, that frankly seem petty given the severity of the crises.  Maybe a critical analysis will show that the NYC metro area should have implemented a Wuhan lockdown.  Maybe it will show that ventilators prolonged the inevitable more than saving lives.  Maybe a significant percentage of those who died were nearing the end.   

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Are we not the United States?

We are a Federalism.  While Democrats may want a huge, unitary state that decides everything, we are not there .......yet. 
 

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I can imagine Dr Fauci had to deliberate hard to go against the political grain of his boss.  By sticking to the facts he gained the respect that bridges politics.
 

You don't know exactly what was happening behind the scenes, maybe we should await an after-action report.  Schiff is now writing a bill for such. 

You like Dr. Fauci because he elaborated upon a policy or two that differed from what you thought Trump said.  Dr. Fauci is a valuable member of the task force, yet I hope you are not suggesting he should direct everything the nation does to fight COVID-1.   
 

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All this is not politics Gator, it based on fact.  If I got anything wrong factually, please do let me know.

I don't argue with your facts such as charts, or clearly stated policies of nations around the globe.  They are helpful. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 04, 2020, 03:18:27 PM

I heard Dr Birx the other day discussing models and kinda leaning on the Italian model as one that could be applicable for the US. 


Dr. Birx presented her charts a couple days ago.  One chart projected 91,000 cumulative deaths by June-July, within a range of 40,000 - 170,000.  I posted the charts in Reply 399 on April 2. 

Her charts were developed by IHME (Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation) from the Univ. of Washington.  There is a building political controversy about the IHME being funded by the Gates Foundation and Birx sitting on the board of  another Gates funded organization.   

I don't know the data used in the IHME models.  One report says it is New York data.  I would assume that the modelers used representative data from all sources.

 
Quote
I hope it is at this point, but believe such may be overly optimistic as containment measures were very different.  It wasn't that long ago that here at RWD the number of infections, deaths and doctors having to split ventilators, apply triage protocols in Italy was somehow abhorrent and held up as a critique of 'socialized' systems.  Now we are beginning to feel and do the exact same things and view the Italian experience as a best-case scenario for the US.


I can't and won't quibble with this.  It is factual and useful, and does not reek with partisanship.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 04, 2020, 06:40:30 PM
1.  You are selective with the facts you choose to present.  For 12 years I have watched you do the same, backing 100% of everything Obama did and 0% of what Trump has done. 

I do recall criticizing Obama i.e. on his handling of Guantanamo and some other intel related matters. I have also agreed with what Trump did, albeit few and far between, likely minor point as they don't really pop out of memory.  I do recall giving him a fair shake in the beginning.

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2.  Dwelling on politics degrades this thread, which I had hoped would center around medical science, public health developments, and national policies.  If you want to dwell on Trump's shortcomings (and he has many to choose from), I suggest the Trump Doctrine thread or maybe  new threads such as "How COVID-19 will Affect the 2020 Election," or something about which I know little,  "Will the Pandemic Change Global Affairs."   

For the vast majority of my posts in this thread with political content, I think you will find following the quotes that it was often someone else that brought up Trump first.  I do tend to object and respond to ad ignorantiam and other discourse fallacies such as 'repeat it till they believe it'.

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3.  There will be time to count the bodies and judge the role and response of the US government, the individual states,  the local communities, the medical community, and the public.  It will be more factual and comprehensive than your preliminary snipes, that frankly seem petty given the severity of the crises.  Maybe a critical analysis will show that the NYC metro area should have implemented a Wuhan lockdown.  Maybe it will show that ventilators prolonged the inevitable more than saving lives.  Maybe a significant percentage of those who died were nearing the end.
   

Indeed there will.  Doctors don't usually intubate patients that are not likely to survive in the first place, even in normal times. It is not an 'always do before die' item on the checklist.

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We are a Federalism.  While Democrats may want a huge, unitary state that decides everything, we are not there .......yet. 

Yes, but when it comes down to stay at home orders at the state level, all Republican eyes are on Trump to set the tone.
 
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You don't know exactly what was happening behind the scenes, maybe we should await an after-action report.  Schiff is now writing a bill for such. 

Yes, it will all come out in the end. The great washing machine of life and politics.

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You like Dr. Fauci because he elaborated upon a policy or two that differed from what you thought Trump said.  Dr. Fauci is a valuable member of the task force, yet I hope you are not suggesting he should direct everything the nation does to fight COVID-1.   

Alone, no.  But when delegations are made, the power and responsibility should also be provided.

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I don't argue with your facts such as charts, or clearly stated policies of nations around the globe.  They are helpful.

I do look at the data before posting but it does not necessarily mean I try to find the data that fits my hypothesis.  The truth normally carries itself and it is very difficult to respond with ease on the basis of doubtful data.  That's not to say I can't err.  If someone counters with better vetted facts I'm willing to learn and change.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 04, 2020, 06:50:00 PM

I don't know the data used in the IHME models.  One report says it is New York data.  I would assume that the modelers used representative data from all sources.


Indeed, I misspoke.  I should have used the term 'Italian data' instead of 'model'.  It just startled me that she mentions Italy a lot in a comparative way.  Listening to her I think 'hmm... what's missing there'.  A sense that a bit of candour is lacking, or use of phrases that just don't say it all.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 04, 2020, 08:25:58 PM
  The truth normally carries itself and it is very difficult to respond with ease on the basis of doubtful data.


Do you trust Chinese data? Remember you put up a chart that shows stocks going up approximately the same rate during Obama's years compared to Trump's years? I told you the chart was manipulated. Humans create these charts and data and can influence them. Trying to be truthful without causing panic is what you're seeing with charts and data right now.

Here's an anti Trump NY Times article put out today. It says there's tension between Trump and his medical experts Dr. Fauci and Dr. Brix. Most people don't watch the daily briefings to understand that isn't true so they believe that crap. NY Times regularly uses charts and data to make Trump look bad. There's charts and data that makes Trump look good but they won't make the news.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/tensions-persist-between-trump-medical-141306900.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 05, 2020, 05:13:50 AM
I do recall criticizing Obama...

My memory universe apparently has some black holes. 

Regarding the other political details of your response, let me say "sequestering at home" is affecting my mood. 


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Yes, but when it comes down to stay at home orders at the state level, all Republican eyes are on Trump to set the tone.

It seems Republicans more than Democrats are trying to balance saving lives with saving the economy.  Mutually exclusive goals?  That tradeoff will be debated, with clear evidence forthcoming of relative changes among the world's nations.    To save the nation Lincoln killed a huge number of young men.   
 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 05, 2020, 05:26:04 AM
Indeed, I misspoke.  I should have used the term 'Italian data' instead of 'model'.  It just startled me that she mentions Italy a lot in a comparative way.  Listening to her I think 'hmm... what's missing there'.  A sense that a bit of candour is lacking, or use of phrases that just don't say it all.

She chooses Italy because the NYC mayor and the NYS governor have an Italian heritage.    :D

If not that reason, she chooses Italy because 1) the epidemic spread started earlier there, and 2) the US mitigation and response follows more what Italy did vs. other early nations such as S Korea.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Maxx2 on April 05, 2020, 06:12:39 AM




If Sweden, which has not locked down its economy and society, emerges with a death toll from COVID-19 that is somewhere in the middle of the pack of European countries, there is going to be a lot of recrimination, particularly against those who have tried to silence any discussion about the true extent of the threat that COVID-19 actually poses

Cheers, say the Swedes



On 3 April 2020 08:36


In a word: Sweden. What happens if they pull this off? What happens if it turns out that we could have coped with COVID-19 without collapsing entire sectors of the economy putting millions on the dole, and imposing some of the most draconian restrictions on civil liberties in living memory?
Sweden has not closed the bars. Shopping malls are open. Schools and companies are open too. There are some restrictions such as on gatherings of over 500 people. But, in comparison with most European countries, life in Sweden is relatively normal.
Right now, Sweden's death rate from coronavirus is 33 per million of the population (http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/). In France it is 83. In Italy it is 230. In Britain it is 43. In the Netherlands it is 78.
In the United States the number of deaths per million of the population is 18, but many argue that the outbreak in America took off later, and European levels of fatality from the virus are on their way. We shall see.
But, in any case, which levels of European fatality? The figures are all over the place. Partly this must be due to different ways in which the death toll is being counted.
In some countries, COVID-19 is being listed as the cause of death merely if it appears somewhere on the death certificate. In other words, you may have been days away from dying from terminal lung cancer, but if you had contracted COVID-19 in the meantime, your death will be listed in the overall COVID-19 fatality numbers. In other countries, it has to have been the single most obvious cause of death to make it into the same statistics.
Sweden appears to be in the latter category, which may be making their numbers look a little lower than in countries which list things differently. But probably not enough to radically change the comparisons.
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That will all be looked at closely when all this is over.
But if, when all such necessary adjustments have been made, Sweden emerges with a death toll from COVID-19 that is somewhere in the middle of the pack of European countries, there is going to be a lot of recrimination, particularly against those who have tried to silence any discussion about the extent of the threat that COVID-19 actually poses.
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What is interesting though, is that precisely because it is Sweden, the usual suspects in our politics who benefit from disillusionment with the establishment may find it hard to profit from this. The Swedish government is led by Stefan Loeven, a Social Democrat.
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Sweden is practically a role model for mainstream, left of centre politics. If you're a European populist, it's going to be more than a little incongruous to start singing the praises of Sweden, of all countries.
Similarly in America. Donald Trump has, albeit reluctantly, broadly followed the lockdown policies we see across most of Europe. Unless he very quickly does a 180 degree turn (and don't rule that out) how can he profit from his usual disdain for the way things are done by the establishment?
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That said, if this particular "Swedish model" wins the day, someone is going to get it in the neck. The question is, who?
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Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 05, 2020, 07:29:08 AM

If Sweden, which has not locked down its economy and society, emerges with a death toll from COVID-19 that is somewhere in the middle of the pack of European countries, there is going to be a lot of recrimination, particularly against those who have tried to silence any discussion about the true extent of the threat that COVID-19 actually poses


When comparing various national lockdown policies, more than differences indeath toll should be considered.  Differences in the rate and extent of economic recovery will be very important.

Supposedly with the Spanish flu, those cities with more extensive lockdown fared better immediately  in death rate and later in economic recovery.   I hear scientists mention this, yet I have not seen any analysis of data.   Keep in mind the lockdown in 1918 is  not comparable to 2020 lockdowns (e. g., most cities kept their schools and theaters open for purpose of educating the public about developments).   

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on April 05, 2020, 07:42:03 AM
Phun Phact
After China disclosed the outbreak of coronavirus to international health officials on New Year’s Eve, at least 430,000 people have arrived in the US  on direct flights from China, including 40,000 people in the two months after Trump’s travel ban
and all the travel for Chinese New Year, came before the ban, oopsie...
and not to mention Corona coming in from European hot-spots
before and after the ban...

trump’s actions were more PR related, to “protect him”
and not his base

who’da thought that denial was not likely to be a successful strategy for survival
it worked with Russiagate, Ukraingate, but looks like it’s gonna fail this time
BIGLY!!!
but at least, this will be the end, there won’t be any more “Trumpgates” after this one

a couple of years from now,
those of you here still alive, had better get used to seeing...
children playing with pieces of dead bodies that lay rotting in the streets

welcome to TrumpLand
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 05, 2020, 07:56:36 AM
TICKING TIME BOMBS?

Why are less developed nations reporting very low number of cases?   I assume it is because they can not afford the expense of extensive testing.  Fewer tests will produce fewer cases.  Consider these  three nations in the subcontinent.


                     Population       Number of Cases

Pakistan             200 million                1,865

Bangladesh         160 million                    51


India               1,300 million               1,251 


They have densely populated areas where social co-mingling is as problematic as in NYC, if not worse.  If these numbers are due to the lack of testing, I contend they are ticking time bombs with number of deaths more catastrophic than in NYC, giving rise to the doomsday envisioned by Krimster.   

Consider India.  India a few days ago implemented a stringent lockdown.  It inadvertently caused 45 million migrant workers to flee the large cities and  return to their villages, possibly accelerating the areal spread.  Such has implications for starvation.   

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 05, 2020, 08:19:53 AM
We now have loonies setting fire to 5G transmission sites   WHY ? .. Because they 'lower immunity'

Some folks are WAY too bored

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52172570 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52172570)

"We have received several reports of criminal damage to phone masts and abuse of telecoms engineers apparently inspired by crackpot conspiracy theories circulating online," a spokeswoman for the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport told the BBC."
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 05, 2020, 09:01:57 AM
TICKING TIME BOMBS?

I actually watched a short documentary report yesterday and tried to search it online but I can't find it. It's about Japan, and the very limited testing they've done, or *willing to do*. They are apparently are in no lockdown mode, and are actually being encouraged to go to work and continue living completely impervious to current pandemic. As their Ministry of Health's deputy director Takuma Kato once proclaimed..

Quote
In the first place, we believe there is not so much need for testing in Japan as in other countries. Japan is not experiencing an explosion of infection numbers with severe symptoms as seen in countries like Italy and South Korea.

Maybe the Japanese knows what they're doing. Who knows.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 05, 2020, 10:28:25 AM
Maybe the Japanese knows what they're doing. Who knows.


Here's a 2018 article which may explain why the virus can't get a foothold in Japan.

http://gogonihon.com/en/blog/why-do-japanese-people-wear-masks/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 05, 2020, 10:33:58 AM
GQB

Do you have family in Japan ? ... Thought not .. IF you did you'd appreciate we compare notes re wearing of masks, govt policy, etc.,

The number of known Coronavirus cases is doubling every five days....

The US embassy is asking US citizens to get out ..

"While we have confidence in Japan's health care system today, we believe a significant increase in Covid-19 cases makes it difficult to predict how the system will be functioning in the coming weeks. In the event of a spike in cases, US citizens with pre-existing medical conditions may not be able to receive the medical care they have grown accustomed to in Japan prior to the Covid-19 pandemic."

Japan appears to be EXACTLY on the same curve as Spain / Italy, historically.

The PM may have to change course. 

Here's a 2018 article which may explain why the virus can't get a foothold in Japan.

http://gogonihon.com/en/blog/why-do-japanese-people-wear-masks/


BillyB, 'on the pulse', as ever ((


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 05, 2020, 10:43:19 AM
Japan appears to be EXACTLY on the same curve as Spain / Italy, historically.


No they're not. You're making stuff up..... again. With everybody wearing masks in Japan, it's hard for the virus to infect others as easily as what happened in Spain and Italy.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 05, 2020, 10:47:05 AM
No they're not. You're making stuff up..... again. With everybody wearing masks in Japan, it's hard for the virus to infect others as easily as what happened in Spain and Italy.

http://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/03/asia/tokyo-coronavirus-japan-hnk-intl/index.html

Ooops

My son-in-law and CNN are both 'making it' up ..

BillyB's 'fake news' is ( so often)  fact ..

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 05, 2020, 10:59:18 AM
My son-in-law and CNN are both 'making it' up ..


If that is what they say, then they are making it up. The culture in Japan is totally different than in Italy and Spain. No nation can stop the spread of the virus but masks significantly slow down the spread so when they say cases in Japan are going to explode like they did in Italy and Spain, they are wrong.

Japan has done very little testing. They tell people who are sick to stay home and monitor what goes on in the hospital. There's not enough activity by the virus to shut down their economy or spend tons of money to test everybody.

When do you think nations should shut down the economy? When the first case shows up? Like Trump said, the cure can be worse than the problem. Can't shut it down too early but can't wait too long either like NY, Spain and Italy done.

Faeroe Islands have done the best job testing their population since 1 out of every 10 of their citizens have been tested. No other nation comes close to testing 10% of their population.

http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 05, 2020, 12:01:31 PM
There are of course social norms in each country that can speed up or slow down the infection rate along with demographic and population health differences.

Just an example, France, Italy and Spain are all close-contact and kissing countries.

Bottom line, such can slow but not stop this virus.  It seems to slowly reach a critical point and blooms from there rapidly.

Germany has been interesting to watch, a ton of testing and tracking kept numbers low, but now they are Nr 4 in the world also hitting the 100k mark.

The only proven way to fight the virus effectively is to simply stay home.  Even Norway and Sweden with their different 'ways' confirms this.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 05, 2020, 12:52:37 PM
Here's a 2018 article which may explain why the virus can't get a foothold in Japan.

http://gogonihon.com/en/blog/why-do-japanese-people-wear-masks/

It's the damnedest thing...but yes, Japanese were angered by Abe's response (http://www.mercurynews.com/2020/04/02/coronavirus-anger-over-japanese-leaders-offer-two-cloth-masks-per-household/) to the pandemic by initiating a plan of giving 'two masks' per person in their battle against the virus. This after starting to see the spread of the virus...but before that... (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-testing-idUSKBN2150ZR) -

Quote
Over the past week, Japan has scrambled to avert an explosive surge in infections. While the current tally stands at around 2,300 cases, Japan — a country of over 127 million people — has tested only about 30,000 residents. Neighboring South Korea, with a population of about 51 million, carried out 394,000 tests.

Of that 30,000, only less than 20,000 were actually 'tested':

Quote
While Japanese doctors have carried out more than 32,000 tests, only 16,484 people have actually been tested, given that many are often tested multiple times.

According to this report (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-testing-idUSKBN2150ZR)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 05, 2020, 01:02:34 PM

Assuming Japan is telling the truth, their infections is low and their deaths are low. One can argue they aren't doing enough tests but Japan can argue, their hospitals aren't busy as proof they don't have a high amount of infections.

No country in the world except Faeroe Islands have tested 10% of their population. No test kit is 100% accurate and many of the test kits China is sending other countries is about 30% accurate.

With masks and social distancing, I"m sure Japan will keep their numbers low. When a second outbreak happens, nations hope to achieve what Japan did in their first outbreak.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on April 05, 2020, 01:07:17 PM
#

Ooops

My son-in-law and CNN are both 'making it' up ..

BillyB's 'fake news' is ( so often)  fact ..

My nephew lives in Japan, my sister in law is from Japan and
I have a niece and 2 other nephews who have spent every
summer in Japan for 15 years.

I do know that you don't call Japanese "Japs" which you have
done in the past because they consider it a racial slur. You have
no special knowledge or expertise of Japan or of Japanese people.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 05, 2020, 01:30:57 PM
GQB

Do you have family in Japan ? ... Thought not .. IF you did you'd appreciate we compare notes re wearing of masks, govt policy, etc.,

We didn't 'compare notes'. I simply showed you the error of your ways and shoved it up your ass, like I often do. The exchanges are still there and my posts not deleted (as of 4/5/2020 1:39 PST). Check it again if you'd like to make sure..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: jone on April 05, 2020, 02:08:19 PM
Details are beginning to emerge - at great cost to those getting the information out - that China was indeed experimenting with the Corona Virus at the Woohan Institute of Virology.

According to one of the clandestine posts, the Chinese are well aware of who their Typhoid Mary case is and how he caught the disease and spread it through the 'live food' markets.

If, indeed, China is covering this up (who makes up figures for cell phone termination and numbers of urns unless they are somewhat based in reality?) there is going to be hell to pay.   

If this virus originated and escaped from that place, every nation in the country will condemn China.   People will be furious.   To the point of choosing not to buy Chinese products.   Last month China reported a 17% drop in their economy (GDP).    If the people of the world find out that China has been covering this up (which they have) then a 50% reduction is not too hard to fathom.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 05, 2020, 02:46:10 PM
Jon e, show us some websites that you obtained this info from.

Sounds like blockbuster news to me.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: jone on April 05, 2020, 02:57:59 PM
I've seen the links and the reference points.   They were up for a day, then taken down.   In addition, most of the medical staff who worked on the Corona Virus as the Woohan central hospital are now missing.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 05, 2020, 03:54:07 PM
I've seen the links and the reference points.   They were up for a day, then taken down.   In addition, most of the medical staff who worked on the Corona Virus as the Woohan central hospital are now missing.

Were the postings in English or Chinese ?
What are 'reference points' ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 05, 2020, 04:13:48 PM
Billy-

Congrats over there up in WA! Trump just informed that your governor decided to send back, send back!! 400 ventilators! Great news! That's awesome considering WA was the epicenter on the virus in the beginning.

1.670 million tested in the US! Obviously the reason why the high count of confirmed cases. Not bad if you consider the CDC fiasco in the beginning.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 05, 2020, 05:54:30 PM
The Florida Dept of Health COVID-19 Dashboard, now report number of cases by postal zip code. 

If more than 5 cases, the exact number of cases is listed.  Zero cases is also shown.  If 1-5, the number of cases is reported as 1- 5 to protect individual rights. 
 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 05, 2020, 07:19:15 PM
Billy-

Congrats over there up in WA! Trump just informed that your governor decided to send back, send back!! 400 ventilators! Great news! That's awesome considering WA was the epicenter on the virus in the beginning.

1.670 million tested in the US! Obviously the reason why the high count of confirmed cases. Not bad if you consider the CDC fiasco in the beginning.

That is good news. I don't like my governor's politics but it's great he's not sitting on them ventilators if we're not needing them and letting go to other parts of America that could use them. Teamwork and cooperation is what we need to save lives and combat the virus, not politics.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: jone on April 05, 2020, 08:31:40 PM
Were the postings in English or Chinese ?
What are 'reference points' ?

There were two independent and separate statements given.   They had full detail, including the name of patient zero.  I went back through my browsing history and looked up the articles, which came from Chinese National periodicals (Taiwan?) and they were subsequently removed.

My guess is that they will surface again once the background work is completed.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 05, 2020, 08:46:40 PM
When BillyB got busted .. AGAIN ..

If that is what they say, then they are making it up. The culture in Japan is totally different than in Italy and Spain. No nation can stop the spread of the virus but masks significantly slow down the spread so when they say cases in Japan are going to explode like they did in Italy and Spain, they are wrong.

Japan has done very little testing. They tell people who are sick to stay home and monitor what goes on in the hospital. There's not enough activity by the virus to shut down their economy or spend tons of money to test everybody.

When do you think nations should shut down the economy? When the first case shows up? Like Trump said, the cure can be worse than the problem. Can't shut it down too early but can't wait too long either like NY, Spain and Italy done.


http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/



http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/coronavirus-covid-19-japan-state-of-emergency-12612284 (http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/coronavirus-covid-19-japan-state-of-emergency-12612284)

Japan PM Shinzo Abe could declare state of emergency as early as Tuesday amid COVID-19 outbreak

Abe will likely announce his plans to declare the emergency on Monday, the paper said, while Kyodo news agency said new measures would likely come into force on Wednesday.


Many folk in Japan wore masks .. but surgical ones - which are practically USELESS - and the govt had offered its citizens two masks per head of population ..

Yes, saving lives is more important than the economy, you IDIOT.. the economy can recover..

.

[The ]Faeroe Islands have done the best job testing their population since 1 out of every 10 of their citizens have been tested. No other nation comes close to testing 10% of their population.

That's your 'example' .. A tiny island group ? ..Where folks are easier to trace.. ?








Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 05, 2020, 08:51:48 PM
Details are beginning to emerge - at great cost to those getting the information out - that China was indeed experimenting with the Corona Virus at the Woohan Institute of Virology.

According to one of the clandestine posts, the Chinese are well aware of who their Typhoid Mary case is and how he caught the disease and spread it through the 'live food' markets.

If, indeed, China is covering this up (who makes up figures for cell phone termination and numbers of urns unless they are somewhat based in reality?) there is going to be hell to pay.   

If this virus originated and escaped from that place, every nation in the country will condemn China.   People will be furious.   To the point of choosing not to buy Chinese products.   Last month China reported a 17% drop in their economy (GDP).    If the people of the world find out that China has been covering this up (which they have) then a 50% reduction is not too hard to fathom.
At this point it speculation but you have your mind made up clearly.  I'm sure it is just a coincidence that you are trying to drum up support to destroy china's rising economy, same as you were before the virus.  If you can't compete with them, destroy them by any means necessary, that is how it is done here in the USA!
Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 05, 2020, 09:25:35 PM
You have no special knowledge or expertise of Japan or of Japanese people.

'Sorry', Bill.. but when it comes to BillyB's BOLLOX - I do ..


Do you agree with him, that the Japanese have the situation 'under control' and aren't just about to introduce a emergency measures as new cases are increasing exponentially ?

When you refer to England and mean Britain - it's an insult .. does it stop you ... ?





Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 05, 2020, 09:49:35 PM
Many folk in Japan wore masks ..


Japan is right next to China and they haven't declared a state of emergency yet. Even if they do, they are 45 days behind Western nations which means they have a very slow spread compared to others. Figure it out.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 05, 2020, 09:53:59 PM
The Florida Dept of Health COVID-19 Dashboard, now report number of cases by postal zip code. 

If more than 5 cases, the exact number of cases is listed.  Zero cases is also shown.  If 1-5, the number of cases is reported as 1- 5 to protect individual rights.

As of 4/5 - California:

Total tested to date: 131,533
Positive: 13,438 (LA = 5,275)
Negative: 103,095
Pending:15,000

Currently hospitalized: 2,398
In ICU: 1,040
On ventilator: None
Death: 319

If the tested count represent the first responders + symptomatic patients, this means California is not doing too bad, with approximately 18% of the positive getting hospitalized. Of that, 43% in ICU with no one on ventilators.

Death rate, tested persons, 0.24+/-%; from confirmed cases,  2.4%
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 05, 2020, 10:37:14 PM
Japan is right next to China and they haven't declared a state of emergency yet. Even if they do, they are 45 days behind Western nations which means they have a very slow spread compared to others. Figure it out.

BillyB,

face it - you were WRONG .. 

I figure you'll try to spin out of any stupid comment you make ..

YOU told us Japan has this 'under control' .. 

Korea is as close to China as Japan ..





Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 06, 2020, 10:41:41 AM
TICKING TIME BOMBS?

Why are less developed nations reporting very low number of cases?   I assume it is because they can not afford the expense of extensive testing.  Fewer tests will produce fewer cases.  Consider these  three nations in the subcontinent.


                     Population       Number of Cases

Pakistan             200 million                1,865

Bangladesh         160 million                    51


India               1,300 million               1,251 


They have densely populated areas where social co-mingling is as problematic as in NYC, if not worse.  If these numbers are due to the lack of testing, I contend they are ticking time bombs with number of deaths more catastrophic than in NYC, giving rise to the doomsday envisioned by Krimster.   

Consider India.  India a few days ago implemented a stringent lockdown.  It inadvertently caused 45 million migrant workers to flee the large cities and  return to their villages, possibly accelerating the areal spread.  Such has implications for starvation.   

Apparently, studies are underway that, at this time, seem to suggest why places like India (maybe even Russia to some extent), seem impervious to massive infection.

BCG Vaccine (http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/tb-vaccine-appears-to-offer-protection-against-covid-19/story-lHholAkFWyOW5HSWI3A4zM.html)

Quote
The Bacillus Calmette-Guérin (BCG) vaccine to prevent tuberculosis, which has been given to Indian children since 1949, and which around 97% of the 26 million Indian children born every year received last year, appears to offer protection against coronavirus disease (Covid-19), according to US researchers who analysed the wide variation in the intensity of the disease in different countries. It also helps lower cases of Covid-19 in a country, the researchers found.


Australia (http://www.clinicaltrialsarena.com/news/australia-bcg-vaccine-trial-covid-19/) seemed to have spearheaded the clinical trials...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 06, 2020, 10:53:56 AM
GQ,

Was watching this on German news the other day.  Max Plank Institute who developed the vaccine also started trials at hospitals in several hospitals in Germany, and it's being replicated in several countries.

The huge advantage is that some of the trials, i.e. safety trials that test only whether or not the vaccine causes harm, can be skipped as they have already been done.  This saves a few months time, maybe more.

I also hope it works.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 06, 2020, 11:05:18 AM
GQ,

Was watching this on German news the other day.  Max Plank Institute who developed the vaccine also started trials at hospitals in several hospitals in Germany, and it's being replicated in several countries.

The huge advantage is that some of the trials, i.e. safety trials that test only whether or not the vaccine causes harm, can be skipped as they have already been done.  This saves a few months time, maybe more.

I also hope it works.

I hope so, too BC! Could be a gamechanger ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 06, 2020, 11:23:36 AM
There are many candidates that we hope will work.  If you want to call them all possible game-changers that's fine  :devil:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: jone on April 06, 2020, 11:32:19 AM
On another note: 

People always say that no one tells about stock purchases until after the event.   I went in heavy today on Chemical Financial.  My take is that the financial sector was hit hard without sustaining the direct material losses the airlines did and the vacation/leisure stocks did.  If CHFC demonstrates what I think it will over the next week, I'll look at some other offerings of a similar nature.

Were I a betting man (and I am sometimes) I would begin to look at energy stocks.  Okay.  That is my current strategy.   Take it apart.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 06, 2020, 12:16:56 PM
I went in heavy today on Chemical Financial. ... Take it apart.

Too much good news to sit on the sidelines.  Boris could spook the market.   

Chemical is good choice considering the price of feedstock will be low even after COVID-19 is defeated.  I bought Dow Chemical.  Us old folks like dividends and their cash can can covere the distributions.

Had bought NVDA near the bottom and sold too early.   However, can't go broke takin' It's screaming up.  Millenials!   

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 06, 2020, 12:36:51 PM
That is good news. I don't like my governor's politics but it's great he's not sitting on them ventilators if we're not needing them and letting go to other parts of America that could use them. Teamwork and cooperation is what we need to save lives and combat the virus, not politics.

Just like that, Billy...our governor sent back 500 ventilators to the national stockpile.

I'm not quite certain why none of the states/cities are reporting ventilator usages but seem to always be primal in their needs during these press conferences along with hospital beds and PPEs...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 07, 2020, 05:39:12 AM
MORE NEWS ABOUT HCQ FROM THE HEALTHCARE COMMUNITY

Rheumatologists have a long history of prescribing HCQ to lupus patients. They state the drug is safe at the dosages they use.

Let's take this another step. 300,000 people in the US have lupus and likely take HCQ on a regular basis.   Have they been infected by COVID-19?   

A "data cruncher"  analyzed the insurance data for 14,000 lupus patients and discovered not one has COVID-19.   

Yes, very preliminary, and certainly ANECDOTAL.  Yet it calls for a more comprehensive analysis of national insurance records.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 07, 2020, 04:32:15 PM
So where do we go from here until they finally get the vaccine? Which will be from 18-24 months.

They keep talking about flattening the curve, but then what?

All the current cases will either die or recovered, yet it won't mean we had gotten rid of the virus. Businesses slowly begin to come back and people begin gathering again...do we then begin the lockdown cycle again?

Or are we resigned to self-isolation until the vaccine?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 07, 2020, 07:06:21 PM
GOOD NEWS

The actual number of new cases, hospitalizations, and deaths are well below the predictions made by IHME model used by the White House Task Force.  You may recall the model projected 91,000 cumulative deaths by June-July, within a range of 40,000 - 170,000 deaths.  And the doctors on the Task Force sadvised we should prepare for them. 

Because the actual data came in lower, the  scientists adjusted the model lower.  That was a few days ago.  Guess what!  Today's numbers are below the revised predictions.   

There are a variety of explanations offered by observers.  One theory is the American public implemented the social distancing guidelines better than expected.  That would explain lower cases, but IMO not lower hospitalizations, which lag new cases.  Nor would it explain lower deaths, which lag hospitalizations.   

The adjustments downward are not huge, yet it seems the crisis about exceeding hospital capacity will never happen.

Tomorrow will bring new numbers, and the experts will be out in force.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 07, 2020, 07:14:40 PM
We are not the only nation experiencing such downward trends in the spread of the disease.  Reports are that Denmark, which is said to have resembled the pace of the US outbreak, plan to open their schools next week.  Austria is planning a similar openings, to include opening its restaurants in mid-May. 

It is possible COVID-19 outbreaks could rebound as supposedly is now happening in Singapore.  However, the doomsayers need to relax, and our policy makers should be developing a plan on getting America back to work.    I contend the economic recovery will be more challenging than the disease. 

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 07, 2020, 07:36:33 PM
MORE NEWS ABOUT HCQ FROM THE HEALTHCARE COMMUNITY

Rheumatologists have a long history of prescribing HCQ to lupus patients. They state the drug is safe at the dosages they use.

Let's take this another step. 300,000 people in the US have lupus and likely take HCQ on a regular basis.   Have they been infected by COVID-19?   

A "data cruncher"  analyzed the insurance data for 14,000 lupus patients and discovered not one has COVID-19.   

Yes, very preliminary, and certainly ANECDOTAL.  Yet it calls for a more comprehensive analysis of national insurance records.   

Is giving HCQ to healthy people for life as a cure a good thing? Lots of experts aren't sold yet on HCQ as being effective against the virus. Doctors aren't saying its a cure but some doctors say it's a possible treatment to shorten the battle a person has with the virus.

Why a treatment that may work? Does it actually work against the virus? Probably not. People with lupus have an immune system that attacks healthy tissue and HCQ prevents that. One problem with  those who have a serious case of COVID-19 is that their immune system can go into overdrive to the point they create so many antibodies that it attacks healthy tissue kinda like what happens to those with lupus. The coronavirus and a person's immune system can both team up and kill living tissue although they are fighting against each other. While HCQ is probably ineffective against the virus, it's certainly effective in preventing a person's immune system from destroying healthy tissue and thus speed up recovery as doctors have noticed.

I know many people here don't like the Cuomo brothers but there is important info in the videos below about how to beat COVID-19. Most people battling COVID-19 will do it within their homes, not a hospital, so they won't have access to doctors and good advice. In the first video Chris talks about strange dreams and shares humor with his brother. Second video he got a call from a doctor giving tips on how to beat the virus and laying down still can help the virus to win. Good stuff in the videos you need to know you ever get COVID-19.

http://www.yahoo.com/huffpost/chris-cuomo-coronavirus-advice-121155247.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 07, 2020, 07:38:48 PM

They keep talking about flattening the curve, but then what?


Flattening the economy unless we get back to work.

We have lived with widespread deadly diseases before in the history of America while fighting Redcoats, Indians, etc..   COVID-19 is something we will be able to manage with the much improved testing that surely will come.    I predict we we will have better therapeutics, maybe even better than HCQ.  ;)  Likely a prophylactic.    I don't worry.         
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: calmissile on April 07, 2020, 08:41:25 PM
So where do we go from here until they finally get the vaccine? Which will be from 18-24 months.

They keep talking about flattening the curve, but then what?

All the current cases will either die or recovered, yet it won't mean we had gotten rid of the virus. Businesses slowly begin to come back and people begin gathering again...do we then begin the lockdown cycle again?

Or are we resigned to self-isolation until the vaccine?

A very good, thought provoking question.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 07, 2020, 08:42:02 PM
They keep talking about flattening the curve, but then what?


It's best to talk about one problem at a time. It's best not to talk about a problem that has yet to arrive. But I'm sure they're working on the next step and so on.

Jan 20 America recorded it's first Coronavirus case and the guy didn't eat the meat at the Chinese meat market. Jan 20 is also the day China admits to the world human to human transmission is possible. They knew they couldn't keep it secret any longer since other nations would soon confirm what they previously wouldn't.

Two months after America's first case, much of America and the world's economies come to a halt and hospitals are overwhelmed. Two and a half months after our first case, America records 400,000 infections but experts predict it's easily over half a million infections since many haven't taken the test.

After the curve is flattened, infections will increase again but slowly because humans have altered our behavior. We will kiss less, we will not go to functions that have mass crowds, we will practice social distancing everywhere we go but infections will still increase over time to the point we need to shut it down again.

  I predict we we will have better therapeutics, maybe even better than HCQ.   
     

I hope so but as powerful as Google is, Google has not shown me a single vaccine or treatment that has been found for any coronavirus man has encountered in the past.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 07, 2020, 08:45:54 PM
So where do we go from here until they finally get the vaccine? Which will be from 18-24 months.

They keep talking about flattening the curve, but then what?

All the current cases will either die or recovered, yet it won't mean we had gotten rid of the virus. Businesses slowly begin to come back and people begin gathering again...do we then begin the lockdown cycle again?

Or are we resigned to self-isolation until the vaccine?

Whatever happens, happens.  Less activity perhaps, the introverts will thrive in the new more dangerous world.   When  the businesses and activities I like start to open up, I'm going out and doing what I want.  I'll probably be more cautious but if it kills me, it would be ok.  I'm the oldest and while healthy, I'm still the most health challenged in my immediate family, the way it should be.   Others are free to isolate with their toilet paper, vitamins, and slippers all day.  I won't begrudge them at all, but it won't be me.

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 08, 2020, 12:38:45 AM
GOOD NEWS

As posted before, I would be very careful with building expectations at this point.  A new spike can be just around the corner.  Takes more than a couple days to define a trend.. a lot more.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24217.msg531641#msg531641



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 08, 2020, 01:12:40 AM
So where do we go from here until they finally get the vaccine? Which will be from 18-24 months.

They keep talking about flattening the curve, but then what?

All the current cases will either die or recovered, yet it won't mean we had gotten rid of the virus. Businesses slowly begin to come back and people begin gathering again...do we then begin the lockdown cycle again?

Or are we resigned to self-isolation until the vaccine?

GQ,

The only logical way forward so far that I see is to start testing on a national scale to identify and isolate remaining active cases along with antibody testing to find those that can work more freely.  Folks can adjust their measures depending on how they test.  Borders must become very stringent.  In the case of the US, states like California that first implemented containment and lockdown measures will have to protect their state lines to prevent reinfection just as a country would.  Otherwise, we'll be chasing our tail forever.  Have to remember until we know otherwise the majority of the population is still susceptible to this bug.

IMHO testing on a massive scale is warranted before restrictions are relaxed too far.

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 08, 2020, 04:12:36 AM
As posted before, I would be very careful with building expectations at this point.  A new spike can be just around the corner.  Takes more than a couple days to define a trend.. a lot more.


True, but "good news" is a step in the right direction.   The data each day show progress, and each day of progress while still distancing is one day closer to getting out of this situation.   

For sure its not yet what we need to get back to work.  Nevertheless, we should be making transitional plans.     

     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 08, 2020, 04:25:28 AM

The only logical way forward so far that I see is to start testing on a national scale to identify and isolate remaining active cases along with antibody testing to find those that can work more freely.  Folks can adjust their measures depending on how they test.
 

You and I agree.  That was part of  my response to GQ. 


Quote
Borders must become very stringent.  In the case of the US, states like California that first implemented containment and lockdown measures will have to protect their state lines to prevent reinfection just as a country would. 

Thorny issue for Americans and our sense of individual freedoms.   I recall you not long ago  opposing the restrictions about stopping New Yorkers.   Maybe travelers should have their body temperature measured at the border?   Or allowed to enter only if having a recent negative test.


Quote
Otherwise, we'll be chasing our tail forever.  Have to remember until we know otherwise the majority of the population is still susceptible to this bug.

Need a transitional plan rather than await for an "all clear" announcement.  Waiting until we have a vaccine or proven prophylactic  is too long.   

Quote
IMHO testing on a massive scale is warranted before restrictions are relaxed too far.

Restrictions can be eased in step with expanded testing.  How?  Need people much smarter than me to make such plans. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 08, 2020, 04:54:47 AM
Thorny issue for Americans and our sense of individual freedoms.   I recall you not long ago  opposing the restrictions about stopping New Yorkers.   Maybe travelers should have their body temperature measured at the border?   Or allowed to enter only if having a recent negative test.

IIRC I felt it would not be feasible as it was already too late for such.  Think was the first post with the radar picture of aeroplanes flying around.  No sense to block roads in and out when passenger planes are flying overhead.  Measuring temperature won't be effective for those that are infected but have no symptoms.


Quote
Need a transitional plan rather than await for an "all clear" announcement.  Waiting until we have a vaccine or proven prophylactic  is too long.


Indeed.  Testing and releasing those with antibodies is the only viable method I see.  Some, likely those that test negative but without antibodies may have to be restricted at a higher level for a while to come or segregated somehow until a good vaccine is available. Those that are infected will have to be isolated along with tracking down any contacts.  Maybe injecting antibodies from blood serum into non-infected folks will work as a stopgap.

Quote
Restrictions can be eased in step with expanded testing.  How?  Need people much smarter than me to make such plans.

Bottom line, your front door is the only thing you can control as an individual.  The rest may seem complicated but will certainly take some months time.  Until I am tested and know my status I'll remain in isolation, taking pretty much the same precautions as now along with my family.

The big question is do we have an exit strategy... here it is being actively worked on and should hear something official in the next week or so, If it's not ready the lockdown may be loosened a wee bit but not much and extended until formalized and ready.

I don't know if any exit strategy will be acceptable in the WH as all will take time and much effort to do it right.  'Cut 'em loose' is dangerous IMHO as evidenced by new flareups in other countries.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 08, 2020, 06:37:59 AM
The only logical way forward so far that I see is to start testing on a national scale to identify and isolate remaining active cases along with antibody testing to find those that can work more freely.

IMHO testing on a massive scale is warranted before restrictions are relaxed too far.


Faeroe Islands is the only nation on earth that tested 10% of their population. No other nation on earth come close. Italy tested just over 1% of their population and America is half of that. It's easy to find the first 1% of the population to test. It's near impossible to find the last 1% of the population. They could be homeless, don't want to participate, and/or in the middle of nowhere. Achieving 100% testing of 7.8 billion people has worst odds than the toughest lottery. All it takes is one person to slip through the cracks and within months, we got another pandemic.

Also....no test is 100% accurate. China has created the most tests kits and shipped them all over the world. Spain reported the test kits having a 30% accuracy. Czech Republic reported the test kits having a 20% accuracy. Multiply the difficulty of being able to test 100% of the people times the difficulty of making a 100% accurate test kit and you will conclude it's easier to find a vaccine for a coronavirus which currently is something mankind has never achieved. With the latest medical advances and the largest effort ever to hunt for a vaccine, maybe we will be able to finally find a vaccine for a coronavirus which just happens to be the worst coronavirus that we've ever experienced.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 08, 2020, 07:11:39 AM
I don't understand this idea of trying to test everyone.

All a test indicates (ignoring false negatives and false positives) is the situation at that point in time.

The next day, a person who tested negatively could then acquire the virus.

This also applies to all those who have already been tested.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 08, 2020, 07:14:25 AM
According to ABC News, and reported here by good old CNN, the US knew there was a severe virus in November.  It was already being discussed in the starkest of terms.  How does this not put to rest that the US was unguarded against a misinformation campaign in China? 


ABC News: US intelligence warned of China's spreading contagion in November

US intelligence officials were warning as far back as late November that the novel coronavirus was spreading through China's Wuhan region and posing a threat to its people and daily life, according to ABC News.

The US military's National Center for Medical Intelligence (NCMI) compiled a November intelligence report in which "analysts concluded it could be a cataclysmic event," one of the sources of the NCMI's report told ABC News.
Chaos rocks Trump White House on virus&#39; most tragic day
Chaos rocks Trump White House on virus' most tragic day
The source told ABC News that the intelligence report was then briefed "multiple times" .....


http://www.cnn.com/2020/04/08/politics/us-intelligence-report-china-coronavirus/index.html    (http://www.cnn.com/2020/04/08/politics/us-intelligence-report-china-coronavirus/index.html)
Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 08, 2020, 07:44:59 AM
I don't understand this idea of trying to test everyone.

All a test indicates (ignoring false negatives and false positives) is the situation at that point in time.

The next day, a person who tested negatively could then acquire the virus.

This also applies to all those who have already been tested.

That is true ML, but the most interesting test at the moment is antibody testing to find folks that have had the bug but did not have symptoms or recovered with mild cases.

The test is being tested here in several regions to find out how accurate they are.  A major problem at the moment is getting enough of the reagents needed as worldwide demand is high.

If I am positive I'll stay home under quarantine and need to be retested after the illness passes - then I'll likely be immune and can go to work not having to worry about infecting others or myself.  If I test and have antibodies I should also be able to move around freely without infecting others or myself.  If I test negative then I'd better stay home and take the same precautions I do now in lockdown until a vaccine is available.

Those that have antibodies can help others that are sick by giving blood plasma, *maybe* even those that are healthy (big question mark here).
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 08, 2020, 08:52:47 AM
IIRC I felt it would not be feasible as it was already too late for such.  Think was the first post with the radar picture of aeroplanes flying around. 

This should interest you.  ABC News analyzed 20 million international flight records for the critical 4-month period of December - March.

Flights from China:  "3,200 flights flew from China to the U.S., including more than 1,000 flights ....to Los Angeles and nearly 500 each landed in San Francisco and New York  ....those flights translated to more than 761,000 Chinese nationals entering the U.S.... Among the flights were 50 direct from Wuhan.... Twenty-seven of those flights went to San Francisco and 23 to New York’s John F. Kennedy International Airport. The last flights from Wuhan came in early February...." because of the Trump travel ban.

Flights from Italy and Spain:  "More than 1,400 direct flights from Italy landed in U.S. cities from December to March, including more than 500 in February and March....Another 2,255 flights from Spain landed in U.S. cities....Nearly 100 of the Italy-to-Miami flights happened over six weeks in February and early March before the U.S. imposed restrictions. .....Also in March, more than 400 flights left Spain for 12 American cities. Close to half of those flights landed at two New York City region airports: JFK and Newark Liberty. ...The flights directly from China, Italy and Spain reached at least 15 states.

Also, "Of the Customs and Border Protection personnel that tested positive, 52, were from New York ports of entry, 20 were from Miami and Fort Lauderdale airports and facilities, 10 from Los Angeles work sites and 10 from New Jersey."

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/disaster-motion-flights-coronavirus-ravaged-countries-landed-us/story?id=70025470
 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 08, 2020, 08:56:04 AM
I don't understand this idea of trying to test everyone.

All a test indicates (ignoring false negatives and false positives) is the situation at that point in time.

The next day, a person who tested negatively could then acquire the virus.

This also applies to all those who have already been tested.

Very valid point.

But like BC had been saying, national testing at least for the next 18-24 months or until a vaccine is found, IMO, would give society at large a 'process of self-elimination' (or better yet, self-isolation, extraction, etc…)

There should be as much effort to make test kits on a much higher scale of availability and affordability, like per se - pregnancy test kits, breathalyzer, etc..  to the point anyone can periodically 'test' themselves - everyday if need be.

A daily personal testing would immensely help 'curb' infection to society at large. You test negative, go about your daily routine. You test positive, stay home and quarantine.

*([Even better, if these test kits are somehow connected to the internet that would automatically send information at large to mission district central headquarters for monitoring....so if the infected attempts to leave and go outside, a drone can immediately be dispatched and fire a disintegrating ray upon the person and eliminate the danger to society.)*

Anyway, the point is, people have a natural herding mentality. It's just not in our nature to be 'caged'. Sooner than later the masses will defy any stay-at-home mandate. So any slight show of the curve falling down our govt. will lift the lockdown ordinance and we will all be exposed to the same infection rate we were in initially.

Lather, rinse, repeat...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 08, 2020, 09:10:03 AM

I don't know if any exit strategy will be acceptable in the WH as all will take time and much effort to do it right.  'Cut 'em loose' is dangerous IMHO as evidenced by new flareups in other countries.

I believe it will be a decision made  jointly with each of the 50 Governors and implemented in stages starting first with least infected  states.  And within each state, it may be sequenced.  For example, first phase could be to open schools, construction projects and public parks.   Just an example; I am not smart enough to know what is best.   

The decision will not be "perfect,";) as I anticipate it will be implemented before the full capacity of needed testing is developed.  It will be the most important decision in his four years as President. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 08, 2020, 09:17:16 AM
This should interest you.  ABC News analyzed 20 million international flight records for the critical 4-month period of December - March.

Flights from China:  "3,200 flights flew from China to the U.S., including more than 1,000 flights ....to Los Angeles and nearly 500 each landed in San Francisco and New York  ....those flights translated to more than 761,000 Chinese nationals entering the U.S.... Among the flights were 50 direct from Wuhan.... Twenty-seven of those flights went to San Francisco and 23 to New York’s John F. Kennedy International Airport. The last flights from Wuhan came in early February...." because of the Trump travel ban.

Flights from Italy and Spain:  "More than 1,400 direct flights from Italy landed in U.S. cities from December to March, including more than 500 in February and March....Another 2,255 flights from Spain landed in U.S. cities....Nearly 100 of the Italy-to-Miami flights happened over six weeks in February and early March before the U.S. imposed restrictions. .....Also in March, more than 400 flights left Spain for 12 American cities. Close to half of those flights landed at two New York City region airports: JFK and Newark Liberty. ...The flights directly from China, Italy and Spain reached at least 15 states.

Also, "Of the Customs and Border Protection personnel that tested positive, 52, were from New York ports of entry, 20 were from Miami and Fort Lauderdale airports and facilities, 10 from Los Angeles work sites and 10 from New Jersey."

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/disaster-motion-flights-coronavirus-ravaged-countries-landed-us/story?id=70025470

This is mind numbing if one considers the R-naught rate of this virus is 2-2.5.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: calmissile on April 08, 2020, 12:56:33 PM
Have been thinking about GQ's "What Next" question.
It seems to me that one of the most important priorities is to reopen our industry and businesses.  So what are the options to do this with minimal impact on the virus spreading and reappearing?

The lockdowns, shelter in place, and social distancing appears to have worked to a large extent but isn't a practical solution to getting our country back to work.  So what tools do we have that are available now or in the near future that can be used to allow the work force to resume getting back to work?

Since there is no vaccine to prevent the population from contracting the virus, we must rely on other methods to prevent the transmission of the virus.  The experts have indicated that the transmission mechanism best understood is from physical contact and via inhaling the vapors from infected individuals (coughing, etc).

It would seem to me that businesses could implement measures that would greatly minimize the transmission of the virus in the workplace.
1.  Require all employees to  wear masks to minimize the risk of spreading the virus from someone infected to other workers.
2.  Install the disinfectant hand wash dispensers in all bathrooms lunchrooms, hallways, etc.   Our company had already done this prior to the virus outbreak.  Just good planning by someone in our company I guess.
3.  For businesses that deal with the public, install the disinfectant wipe dispensers such as our grocery stores have already done.
4.  Any employee that shows signs of virus symptoms should be sent home and not return until tested.   Our company already took similar actions by sending an employee home whos wife had just returned from Spain.

In addition, until a vaccine is available I think the public wearing masks in public would probably also minimize the spread of the virus.  I would not have to last forever, just until the epidemic is under control and a vaccine is readily available.

What are your thoughts or other solutions?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 08, 2020, 02:04:35 PM
Have been thinking about GQ's "What Next" question.
It seems to me that one of the most important priorities is to reopen our industry and businesses.  So what are the options to do this with minimal impact on the virus spreading and reappearing?

The lockdowns, shelter in place, and social distancing appears to have worked to a large extent but isn't a practical solution to getting our country back to work.  So what tools do we have that are available now or in the near future that can be used to allow the work force to resume getting back to work?

Since there is no vaccine to prevent the population from contracting the virus, we must rely on other methods to prevent the transmission of the virus.  The experts have indicated that the transmission mechanism best understood is from physical contact and via inhaling the vapors from infected individuals (coughing, etc)…

No easy answer to this, Cal. Certainly not a fool-proof solution until a vaccine comes around. As I posted above, short of having a portable (personal) test kit where a person can test themselves everyday, it's Russian roulette going back outside and attempting to go back to 'normal'.

Let me address some of your bulleted items...

It would seem to me that businesses could implement measures that would greatly minimize the transmission of the virus in the workplace.
1.  Require all employees to  wear masks to minimize the risk of spreading the virus from someone infected to other workers.

As a result of the revelation in our company that a co-worker came down with symptoms of the virus and stayed home, they issued the following notice this morning..

" Good Morning Team,
Beginning Friday, April 10, 2020, all office personnel will be required to wear a face cover when socializing during business hours.  This includes any office meetings or walking around the office. 

All personnel working outside are required to wear a face cover at all times beginning today....
"

2.  Install the disinfectant hand wash dispensers in all bathrooms lunchrooms, hallways, etc.   Our company had already done this prior to the virus outbreak.  Just good planning by someone in our company I guess.

We had a crew for 3 weeks now that were sanitizing our work place on a daily basis...door knobs, tools, computers, desks, tables, etc...it still didn't stop a co-worker from being symptomatic. All you really got is a false sense of security.

3.  For businesses that deal with the public, install the disinfectant wipe dispensers such as our grocery stores have already done.

4.  Any employee that shows signs of virus symptoms should be sent home and not return until tested.   Our company already took similar actions by sending an employee home whos wife had just returned from Spain.

Thin line to ensuring the safety of the public by provisions of items or programs of prevention, whether public or private entity, from it becoming an invitation of open liability.

Companies in our industry had already started sending 'CYA' notices to all sub-tiers with varying response programs that does nothing more than cover their butts for any potential lawsuits.

For example, from now on, before entering and starting any work in our projects, every single personnel is supposed to go through interviews and answer a set of stabled questions (e.g. Have you exposed yourself with someone showing symptoms within the last 24 hours? etc...), then get temp scanned, etc...if passed, person signs in and goes to work. If not, he's turned around and instructed to go home and quarantine.

Great! What does the person do after? He can't get tested unless he begins to show symptoms. He quarantines and never got sick enough to be tested - how then does he go back to work? Who's going to give him a certificate he's no longer infected? There are a whole lot of us who are asymptomatic that can easily 'pass' these silly surficial tests and questioning but it doesn't screen or mitigate the infection.

In addition, until a vaccine is available I think the public wearing masks in public would probably also minimize the spread of the virus.  I would not have to last forever, just until the epidemic is under control and a vaccine is readily available.

What are your thoughts or other solutions?

There is no easy answer, and there definitely is no solution short of a vaccine. This is our reality today. Look at the daily count case accounting here and worldwide. A million and a half, and these are people who had symptoms, representing roughly 10% of the people who actually got tested that turned out 'positive'. This virus' R-naught is 2-2.5. How many amongst us is asymptomatic that were never tested? How long will it be before THEY begin the vicious infection spree again?

BC can chime in to validate if this report from Italy is true or not. Apparently earlier this week, or last week, a report that came out of Lombardy that said 60 people showed up to donate blood at a blood bank. They found out 40 of them tested positive. 40 out of 60 of people! And these folks were on a strict lockdown mode for weeks! Can you imagine that? People who stayed at home were infected and would've likely gone to work and started associating with everyone again.

It's going to be a wild, wild west out there right now. Health/economy will be nothing more than having to choose between the lesser evil. Either by each of us, or forced by our respective governments.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 08, 2020, 02:36:50 PM
ABC News: US intelligence warned of China's spreading contagion in November

US intelligence officials were warning as far back as late November that the novel coronavirus was spreading through China's Wuhan region and posing a threat to its people and daily life, according to ABC News.

The US military's National Center for Medical Intelligence (NCMI) compiled a November intelligence report in which "analysts concluded it could be a cataclysmic event," one of the sources of the NCMI's report told ABC News.


America spies on China and probably intercepted some phone calls pertaining to China's effort to fight an epidemic in Wuhan. As I mentioned before, my uncle was in a tour group touring China in November. They were supposed to stop in Wuhan in the middle of November but their train was stopped by the Chinese military and told to go around the city.

The virus probably came about earlier than China said it did. It's apparent China has deceived the world from the beginning.

How does this not put to rest that the US was unguarded against a misinformation campaign in China? 


Trump gets intel briefings everyday pertaining to all the bad things and threats around the world. He can't act on every one of them and he can't save everybody's life. Trump and past presidents have not acted on most of what they are told.

We don't know if Trump acted in November or not to the intel finding. Trump's administration isn't going to go to war over this and if you call China they would probably deny it. At the most, Trump's administration would call WHO and ask them to look into it and when WHO had evidence a coronavirus existed, they put out info it wasn't human to human transferable and there was nothing to worry about all the way up to Jan 20. Trump acted shortly after that to the protests of the Democrats who some also gets the same intel briefings as Trump.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 08, 2020, 02:47:23 PM
GQ,

You want the world to stay sequestered?

Rather than name all the beneficial developments that will eventually happen ( e. g., massive testing), let me say we can not wait for an "all clear" announcement.  More and more of the working population must venture out into the unknown and work, with the best protective measures available on a mass scale.   Otherwise we could be set back for years, maybe even experiencing  the apocalyptic life envisioned in Krimster's perplexing scribbling.   

I am not voicing a herd immunity approach.  Rather it is a recognition that some will become infected until we have a complete and impeccable set of protective tools.  Although some of the infected will have serious reactions, our medical treatment protocols are improving for curing the infected.   

The question of course is how many would become infected and how severe the infection.  But we can't stay at home until the money runs out.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 08, 2020, 03:07:54 PM
No Gator, of course not.

I do understand the importance of turning our national economic engine back running again, sooner than later. It's like you said, we need to go head-on to this despite knowing what the implications are. Wifey just sent me an article that one of their main competitor - BDO - sent a memo to its employees about their company-wide pay cuts to stave off current condition. We cannot afford a prolonged shutdown like this.

These are unprecedented times. Very concerning. Damned if you do, double damned if you don't.

As I said above, no easy answer. No perfect solution. For now...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: calmissile on April 08, 2020, 03:32:29 PM
No sooner than GQ had posted a notice from their company I received an email at home with basically the same message..

"Good Afternoon Everyone,

In accordance with San Bernardino County, as xxxxxxxxxxxxx, Inc resides in this county – all employees while on site must wear a protective cloth that covers your nose and mouth that is secured to ears or back of head. You must wear this protective covering while on the property. This is mandatory as we want to support the efforts and safety measures that our county has implemented to maintain a safe work environment for everyone on site.

Suggested forms of cloth coverings include:
·   Bandanas
·   Scarves
·   Neck gaiters
·   Reusable cloth masks

Please note: Surgical masks and the N95 masks must be preserved for healthcare workers and emergency responders.


xxxxxxxxxx   placed an order for reusable/washable cloth masks that will be available tomorrow morning. If you do not have any of the suggested cloth covering options available please see your immediate supervisor so they can facilitate getting you a cloth mask.

Please communicate this information to your team members that do not have email"

As we are considered a critical industry, most of our workers are still having to report to our plant.  It appears to me that maybe businesses are already preparing to mitigate the risks of workers when they come back to work.

Thanks GQ for the response.  Hopefully a plan to restore our employment will be coming soon.


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 08, 2020, 11:06:50 PM
Wow.. woke up this morning to find constructive discourse! How refreshing!

Maybe the shellshock of this experience will give us pause with recriminations so we all can think about the basics of the mess we put ourselves into.

Using Occam's Razor to slice the pie:

First, we will see a higher frequency of pandemics as the world population and density grows. Natural and unnatural forces are further restricting the space in which we live, and increasing sources and breeding grounds for new viral outbreaks.

Second, our ability to travel quickly, easily and cheaply makes for a fantastic viral distribution network. Just a few decades or so ago we would likely not have experienced such a fast worldwide spread of a virus that does not respect borders.

Third, we were not adequately prepared for a pandemic event whether 'we' be a city, county, state, country or world.

Fourth, we are learning the hard way that Science and Politics do not mix well with resulting Economic harm.

Fifth, we are not able to leverage the full potential of our capabilities fighting and recovering from a pandemic.

Sixth, we cannot deal with or overcome a pandemic event alone.  It must be a worldwide effort.

What did I miss?

As bad as this one is, we have been very, very lucky.  The inevitable 'next one' can easily be exponentially more dangerous and infective. The difference is only a molecule here or there.  The only thing worse than the virus itself is our complacency.

Knowing all this, do you think we (humanity) have the drive and wherewithal to think and do things that are far beyond ourselves and our borders to survive the 'next time?

If so, will our fears, recriminations and finger-pointing allow us to progress, or will we first have to overcome these defects of our character to have a decent chance of resolving the challenge in front of us?

Just thoughts to ponder...

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: jone on April 08, 2020, 11:52:25 PM
Looks like we need to get off planet for the protection of the human race, LOL.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 09, 2020, 05:32:24 AM



2.  Install the disinfectant hand wash dispensers in all bathrooms lunchrooms, hallways, etc.   Our company had already done this prior to the virus outbreak.  Just good planning by someone in our company I guess.
 
It seems to me that all the extra hand washing eventually will lead to only the super resistant and strongest virus remaining and growing.   

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 09, 2020, 05:39:12 AM
America spies on China and probably intercepted some phone calls pertaining to China's effort to fight an epidemic in Wuhan. As I mentioned before, my uncle was in a tour group touring China in November. They were supposed to stop in Wuhan in the middle of November but their train was stopped by the Chinese military and told to go around the city.

The virus probably came about earlier than China said it did. It's apparent China has deceived the world from the beginning.

Trump gets intel briefings everyday pertaining to all the bad things and threats around the world. He can't act on every one of them and he can't save everybody's life. Trump and past presidents have not acted on most of what they are told.

We don't know if Trump acted in November or not to the intel finding. Trump's administration isn't going to go to war over this and if you call China they would probably deny it. At the most, Trump's administration would call WHO and ask them to look into it and when WHO had evidence a coronavirus existed, they put out info it wasn't human to human transferable and there was nothing to worry about all the way up to Jan 20. Trump acted shortly after that to the protests of the Democrats who some also gets the same intel briefings as Trump.
Bottom line is the info was in Trump's hands in late November.  The virus spread here well after that.  Personally I don't think much short of a complete lock down would have prevented it. I continue to believe that Trump has decided to prioritize business over saving everybody.  That may just be the lessor of the two evils from his view.

Fathertime! 

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 09, 2020, 06:51:16 AM
we all can think about the basics of the mess we put ourselves into.


WE? You mean China? Whether or not it came from a laboratory or eating strange animals without thoroughly cooking them, it's China that got us in this mess. Nothing what you say below is a factor.

Using Occam's Razor to slice the pie:

First, we will see a higher frequency of pandemics as the world population and density grows. Natural and unnatural forces are further restricting the space in which we live, and increasing sources and breeding grounds for new viral outbreaks.

Second, our ability to travel quickly, easily and cheaply makes for a fantastic viral distribution network. Just a few decades or so ago we would likely not have experienced such a fast worldwide spread of a virus that does not respect borders.

Third, we were not adequately prepared for a pandemic event whether 'we' be a city, county, state, country or world.

Fourth, we are learning the hard way that Science and Politics do not mix well with resulting Economic harm.

Fifth, we are not able to leverage the full potential of our capabilities fighting and recovering from a pandemic.

Sixth, we cannot deal with or overcome a pandemic event alone.  It must be a worldwide effort.

What did I miss?



You missed Climate Change. Yes, I read that from the media climate saying change is helping viruses flourish. Funny thing is most experts agree hot temperatures is something viruses don't like. I hope Nancy Pelosi puts in 500 billion into the next relief bill to combating climate change. Not.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 09, 2020, 08:01:55 AM
WE? You mean China? Whether or not it came from a laboratory or eating strange animals without thoroughly cooking them, it's China that got us in this mess. Nothing what you say below is a factor.

The China blame thread is here http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24254.0

Quote
You missed Climate Change. Yes, I read that from the media climate saying change is helping viruses flourish. Funny thing is most experts agree hot temperatures is something viruses don't like. I hope Nancy Pelosi puts in 500 billion into the next relief bill to combating climate change. Not.

That is included in the first point 'Natural and unnatural forces'.  Melting permafrost, for example, is filled with all kinds of bacteria and virus from days long past that we have not yet encountered.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 09, 2020, 08:10:30 AM
...
What did I miss?

The nature of humankind. We've witness glimpses of moments in time what became of our nature when it came down the final act. That sinister nature in us will be the worst thing that will be our own undoing.

We all would like to celebrate moments of idealism, but these few feel-good moments are fleeting and easily dispensed. When all is said and done, self-preservation kicks in, and trust me - it'll prevail. Last man standing.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 09, 2020, 08:14:54 AM
We all would like to celebrate moments of idealism, but these few feel-good moments are fleeting and easily dispensed. When all is said and done, self-preservation kicks in, and trust me - it'll prevail. Last man standing.

If that is the case, we have learned little, maybe nothing worthwhile.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on April 09, 2020, 08:16:43 AM
It seems to me that all the extra hand washing eventually will lead to only the super resistant and strongest virus remaining and growing.   

Fathertime!

Your argument lacks logic. Sanitary practices are beneficial not detrimental. 

Should surgeons not wash their hands before surgery?

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on April 09, 2020, 08:23:36 AM
You missed Climate Change. Yes, I read that from the media climate saying change is helping viruses flourish. Funny thing is most experts agree hot temperatures is something viruses don't like. I hope Nancy Pelosi puts in 500 billion into the next relief bill to combating climate change. Not.

You bring up an excellent point.

The man made global warming hysteria is based on faulty and
incomplete computer models/modeling. The wild and wide viral
death speculation are based on faulty and incomplete computer
models/modeling.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 09, 2020, 08:28:16 AM
From another thread:

"Did Boris actually say he was thinking about "herd immunity". I know a few of your medical experts thought about it. Could it be your anti Boris media is putting words into his mouth?"

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Saw interesting segment on PBS last night regarding this.

It compared Corona situation in two similarly homogeneous countries Denmark and Sweden.

Apparently Sweden took exactly the tack that Boris was accused of above.
They had no lockdown, and even used the words survival and let our people contract Corona, develop antibodies, and create a herd resistance for the future.

Denmark, on the other hand took the opposite approach and had substantial lockdown.

Now the results are showing that Sweden's death rate from Corona is nearly twice that of Denmark's.

So substantial questioning and discussion by Sweden's government.

The King of Sweden went on TV this week criticizing the government stance on lockdown, and urged the Swedish people to not leave their homes to go to country cottages as is the tradition this time of year.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 09, 2020, 08:30:22 AM
If that is the case, we have learned little, maybe nothing worthwhile.

I'm afraid so. Certainly not meaning to be gloom and doom, but there were moments in this current crisis that really paints the deeply rooted nature in all of us. It's in all our DNA.

At the slightest sight of a crisis, people begin to act out behaviors that shocks all of us first, but begin to submit to the behavior. Must we really need to be reminded and told not to hoard stupid things like toilet papers? Food items? Protective clothing?

Alas, this behavior isn't just in the bottom sectors of all our societies. Look at all our politicians/leaders...countries retaining or depriving PPEs to countries under current need to make sure they have the items when the crisis hits them.

Look at those cruise ships wandering about our open oceans because no country would allow them to dock despite its desperate plea for assistance.

Help comes to the highest bidder - whether monetarily or political influences. Country or individual.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 09, 2020, 08:39:21 AM
I understand and totally agree with your points GQ.

But I remain hopeful that this globe-spanning event can turn a wee bit of 'me' into a tiny spark of 'we'.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 09, 2020, 08:48:29 AM

Now the results are showing that Sweden's death rate from Corona is nearly twice that of Denmark's.


ditto between Sweden and Norway.  Compensating for population 2.5-3 times the deaths.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 09, 2020, 09:06:54 AM
The China blame thread is here http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24254.0


So this is the blame "WE" thread?

Apparently Sweden took exactly the tack that Boris was accused of above.
They had no lockdown, and even used the words survival and let our people contract Corona, develop antibodies, and create a heard resistance for the future.


Sweden has a liberal leader, right? So no problem. If the leader was Conservative, they would get criticized for not following their medical experts advice or get blamed for following their medical experts advice. Conservative leaders can never do right.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: LAman on April 09, 2020, 09:15:44 AM
I understand and totally agree with your points GQ.

But I remain hopeful that this globe-spanning event can turn a wee bit of 'me' into a tiny spark of 'we'.

Unfortunately that can only happen in the very short run.
Human nature is one of self survival, its in the genes, learned over thousands of years. It is why homo sapiens survived/adapted. It is why there is war. It is why people horde, the survival mentality!!
It is Darwin's theory of survival of the fittest. Mother nature has brought on other things like bacteria and virus which keeps the human race from overpopulating. The human mind has thought of ways to extend life, so now we have different illnesses to die from. I wonder what will happen when we start replacing body parts( organs).
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 09, 2020, 09:17:20 AM
I wonder what will happen when we start replacing body parts( organs).

I will ask for a bigger . . . .
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 09, 2020, 09:17:58 AM
Brain, of course.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 09, 2020, 09:21:18 AM
I wonder what will happen when we start replacing body parts( organs).

Haven't we been doing such regularly since the 60's?
 :D
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 09, 2020, 09:42:44 AM
ditto between Sweden and Norway.  Compensating for population 2.5-3 times the deaths.

I had this discussion with our most prominent Swedish member and I promised I'd re-visit this Swedish outlier tactic  with Nightwish

At the time the UK had proportionally the same number of deaths ..

A week ( or so ) on and Sweden stands at c 800 - pop 10 million  http://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa (http://experience.arcgis.com/experience/09f821667ce64bf7be6f9f87457ed9aa)

The UK stands at c. 8000 ( ten times)                  - pop 70 million  ( 7 times larger ) 


I appreciate comparing neighbours with land borders makes more sense, but if the UK is compared with the US..

24,000 deaths ... ( five times gtr population ) should be 40k - if comparing to the UK ......


Are we comparing nations at the same point in the curve ?






Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 09, 2020, 09:48:57 AM
Death rate per capita is the only sensible way to measure.

Telling absolute numbers is meaningless.

Yes, I agree that where a country is on the curve is important for comparisons.

As I understood it, Sweden and Denmark are at or near same point on curve, and their similar population gives their death rate comparison a good amount of validity.

Stop trying to compare number of deaths.  Only rate per capita is meaningful.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: LAman on April 09, 2020, 09:50:22 AM
Brain, of course.

That would only mean that a lesser percentage would be functioning!!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: LAman on April 09, 2020, 09:51:51 AM
Haven't we been doing such regularly since the 60's?
 :D

I don't mean used ones, I mean the new and improved ones!!  )))
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: LAman on April 09, 2020, 09:59:00 AM
Death rate per capita is the only sensible way to measure.

Telling absolute numbers is meaningless.

Yes, I agree that where a country is on the curve is important for comparisons.

As I understood it, Sweden and Denmark are at or near same point on curve, and their similar population gives their death rate comparison a good amount of validity.

Stop trying to compare number of deaths.  Only rate per capita is meaningful.

Death rate per capita doesn't tell you anything but statistics. I would rather know why!!!

Like Italy, 25% of population is over 65, the coronavirus has killed older folks/underlying conditions at a significant rate.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 09, 2020, 10:04:27 AM
Quote from: LaMan
Like Italy, 25% of population is over 65, the coronavirus has killed older folks/underlying conditions at a significant rate.

On the subject of comorbidities, it's becoming apparent classification in causes of death is taking wings for no other reason than money again has become a major part of this crisis.

The numbers we have (apparently) are as follows: Treatment for coronavirus care and hospitalization $13,900.00. ICU care to death, it blooms to $39,000.00. That's per person.

Dr. Fauci was adamant yesterday and referred to this as a 'conspiracy theory'. The opposing view cited that coronavirus death counts are inflated because not of all of them died of the virus, but rather because of underlying medical condition. However, Dr. Fauci contends there's no argument as to the cause of death in this crisis- which is coronavirus. Dr. Brix supported the statement.

Quote from: Dr. Brix
Those individuals will have an underlying condition. But that underlying condition did not cause their acute death when it's related to a COVID infection. In fact, it's the opposite. Having an underlying condition and getting this virus we know is particularly damaging to those individuals.

One prominent doctor in particular rejected this notion. He gave an example, if a person was hit by car and was hospitalized in ICU, and was tested to be positive with coronavirus, eventually died. Is it right to cite the cause of death was due to coronavirus?

There had been a multitude of pushback from the medical community as most of the deaths, they argue, are because of people's underlying medical condition (diabetes, coronary conditions, hypertensions (high blood), pneumonia, etc...) and not because of this virus. Rejecting Dr. Fauci's statement altogether.

Any thoughts?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 09, 2020, 10:12:44 AM

I'm wondering about Germany's death rate per capita. 10 times lower than their neighbors in some cases. Many people who died had underlying medical conditions. When a person dies, does a nation blame it on the underlying condition or COVID-19? Of course some nations deceive but others who are normally honest but don't not want to tell the full truth may want to blame a death on an existing condition instead of COVID-19. Accurate data is important but it seems data from nations are all over the place. We may never learn the full truth about how deadly COVID-19 is.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: LAman on April 09, 2020, 10:55:15 AM
In looking at anomalies through research I found something interesting.

What are the most traveled nations?

1. China
Goes everywhere!!! Almost twice as much as USA
2. USA
Travels mostly everywhere

Huge gap between these two and following nations

3. Germany
Where do Germans most visit? Austria,France and Spain!!
4. UK
Where do most people in UK visit? Spain, France
5. France
Where do French most visit? Italy
6. Canada
Where do Canadiens most visit? USA
7. Korea
Where do Koreans most visit? Japan and China
8. Italy
Where do Italians most visit? France, Spain and Germany

Anybody see any coincidences here??? In travel of a certain virus?

Guess what the top visited countries in the world???

1. France
2. Spain
3. USA
4. China
5. Italy

Now you can clearly see patterns in flow of the coronavirus!!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 09, 2020, 11:00:27 AM
Some countries like Italy test posthumously.  Early on Germany did not so some initial deaths may not be represented.  Even if they were included the rate would still be low.

Aside from optimal hospital capacity, they were testing wider, even with only minor symptoms than most other countries AND actively tracking down contact after contact etc etc to isolate.  They are very methodical and follow the plan meticulously.  They are the kind of people that had a plan for this far in advance and were quite prepared for it.  A part of their plan was protecting the elderly, asking them to isolate along with very strict rules in old folk homes etc etc.  Folks listen and obey, even most of the younger crowd.

Urban planning also plays a role.  Although cities are large, most live in many small outlying towns and sections of town that are separated from each other with a lot of green in-between.  Folks pretty much stick to their own section of town which slows down the spread.

So far despite a lot of infections, no huge spikes and mostly the younger folks affected.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on April 09, 2020, 11:01:00 AM
Bottom line is the info was in Trump's hands in late November.  The virus spread here well after that.  Personally I don't think much short of a complete lock down would have prevented it. I continue to believe that Trump has decided to prioritize business over saving everybody.  That may just be the lessor of the two evils from his view.

Fathertime!

Except that the report wasn't true! The info was in Trumps hands on
January 3.



Defense Official Shoots Down ABC Report
Alleging Trump Admin Ignored Virus Warnings

ABC is quietly sweeping under the rug their own sensational report they
hyped all day Wednesday, which suggested the Trump administration
ignored warnings of an impending pandemic, back in November.
That report is now in dispute, as the very military intelligence
agency which ABC’s unnamed sources cited, has come out
denying the existence of such an intelligence assessment.

There is more read all about it here
http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/kristine-marsh/2020/04/09/defense-official-shoots-down-abc-report-alleging-trump-admin

US intelligence agencies started tracking coronavirus
outbreak in China as early as November

Intelligence is often only elevated to the highest levels of the
government once analysts and officials reach a certain threshold
of confidence in their assessment.

That day came on January 3, the first day the President's daily briefing
included information the US intelligence community had gathered about
the contagion in China and the potential it had to spread, including to
the US, according to a person briefed on the matter.

There is more read all about it here
http://www.cnn.com/2020/04/08/politics/intel-agencies-covid-november/index.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 09, 2020, 11:19:00 AM

China lock down another city. Says infections were imported from Russia so China closes Border with Russia. I don't think China will ever admit again infections increase domestically because they want everybody to believe they have it under control.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/china-closes-russia-border-puts-new-city-into-wuhan-style-lockdown/ar-BB12mi7f?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: LAman on April 09, 2020, 11:35:57 AM
China lock down another city. Says infections were imported from Russia so China closes Border with Russia. I don't think China will ever admit again infections increase domestically because they want everybody to believe they have it under control.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/china-closes-russia-border-puts-new-city-into-wuhan-style-lockdown/ar-BB12mi7f?ocid=spartanntp

You do know Russia closed border to China over a month ago??? What does it matter that China closes a border that is already closed??

Now is that really a 'story'
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 09, 2020, 11:44:05 AM
You do know Russia closed border to China over a month ago??? What does it matter that China closes a border that is already closed??

Now is that really a 'story'

Russia closed the border with China in January. Closed doesn't mean entirely closed. Russia won't allow Chinese nationals to enter Russia but will let those who are in Russia return home.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: LAman on April 09, 2020, 11:55:48 AM
Russia closed the border with China in January. Closed doesn't mean entirely closed. Russia won't allow Chinese nationals to enter Russia but will let those who are in Russia return home.

So in your mind, closed doesn't always mean closed.

So China closing border doesn't mean entirely closed either?? So why say it?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on April 09, 2020, 12:06:03 PM
in the post-crash world, there is no morality, no guiding principles,
no way to stop the inexorable slide toward a life without the institutions that keep America from looking like scenes from The Road Warrior...
and I fully embrace it....

there will be two kinds of people...
those who do "unto others"
and those that have it done to them...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 09, 2020, 12:08:00 PM
Russia can close its border, which usually means they don't let people in.

This may not mean they won't let people out.

So, perhaps, people could still go from Russia to China.

In that case, it would make sense for China to close that very same border, to keep people from entering China.

e.g. Some in USA would like to close the border with Mexico.

But I am sure they are thinking out keeping people out; not stopping people from leaving USA to enter Mexico.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 09, 2020, 12:27:26 PM
So China closing border doesn't mean entirely closed either?? So why say it?


Ask the media why they said it. Maybe they're simply repeating what China said leaving out some details?

So in your mind, closed doesn't always mean closed.


In my mind, I know there's more detail to every story than what the media reports. They like to leave a lot of things/truth out of their stories, especially when it comes to Trump.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 09, 2020, 12:37:31 PM
Countries will normally let their own citizens back in if 'closed'.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: LAman on April 09, 2020, 02:11:54 PM
Ask the media why they said it. Maybe they're simply repeating what China said leaving out some details?

In my mind, I know there's more detail to every story than what the media reports. They like to leave a lot of things/truth out of their stories, especially when it comes to Trump.

You as bad as the media, trying to sensationalize every minute story that comes out. Don't care about whether there is any truth or not , it's a story!!

So the stories that are not the truth are the ones you don't agree with? You're a talking head!! Many are here!!!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 09, 2020, 02:29:21 PM
You as bad as the media, trying to sensationalize every minute story that comes out. Don't care about whether there is any truth or not , it's a story!!

So the stories that are not the truth are the ones you don't agree with? You're a talking head!! Many are here!!!

I wish more of you would get upset with fake news media as you do with me. Maybe we'll get more accurate stories. The story I linked wasn't minute. It was extremely important, not because the border got closed which is what you focused on but because China is experiencing a second wave of outbreaks. Their draconian style lock downs was just a temporary solution.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on April 09, 2020, 02:44:00 PM
Did Sweden blunder? Or did everyone else?
http://jewishworldreview.com/jeff/jacoby040920.php3


Sweden's Relaxed Approach to the Coronavirus Could Already Be Backfiring
http://time.com/5817412/sweden-coronavirus/


Sweden Thinks Herd Immunity Is the Answer to Coronavirus
http://www.vice.com/en_us/article/xgqjyd/sweden-thinks-herd-immunity-is-the-answer-to-coronavirus

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 09, 2020, 02:48:53 PM
So the stories that are not the truth are the ones you don't agree with? You're a talking head!! Many are here!!!

That discussion is well worth its own topic.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 09, 2020, 08:57:41 PM
Countries will normally let their own citizens back in if 'closed'.

'Indeed' ?

I'll mention this to our friend Anatoly in Pattaya.. He'll be glad to know.. given his April 5th Flight was cancelled, his wife had a an unscheduled hysterectomy and he's still in Thailand ..

SC got back in on the 26th March as the shutters were coming down, later that day.

Russia closed it's border with Georgia - even to citizens in private vehicles - other than freight traffic - on the 28th . The border with Azerbaijan remained open, but no way to cross from GE to AZ...((

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/coronavirus-travel-restrictions-border-shutdowns-country-200318091505922.html (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/03/coronavirus-travel-restrictions-border-shutdowns-country-200318091505922.html)


Russian citizens, still abroad, await 'repatriation' flights being organised..

http://www.rferl.org/a/russia-evacuation-coronavirus-foreign/30532004.html (http://www.rferl.org/a/russia-evacuation-coronavirus-foreign/30532004.html)


http://thethaiger.com/coronavirus/stranded-nearly-21000-russians-struggling-to-get-home (http://thethaiger.com/coronavirus/stranded-nearly-21000-russians-struggling-to-get-home)

The Phuket journal seems to ignore Pattaya..

 

 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 10, 2020, 06:26:02 AM
The state of Washington is shipping out the federal provided ventilators and FEMA’s hospital beds that were set-up at the convention center.  Gov. Inslee said they can spare these at this time and hoped to stay the current course.

Good news and great job Washington!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 10, 2020, 06:28:30 AM
Is Ivermectin the new HCQ? Australia seem to think so.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on April 10, 2020, 06:51:07 AM
Is Ivermectin the new HCQ? Australia seem to think so.


I suppose a good deworming might make you feel better.

http://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-1122/ivermectin-oral/details

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=229893

Second link is more on topic.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 10, 2020, 07:43:49 AM
Washington University in St Louis launches investigation of chloroquine.

http://www.union-bulletin.com/news/national/washington-university-launches-clinical-trial-on-controversial-drug-to-treat-coronavirus/article_6dd937a3-f9f9-5afb-8275-8698375c71aa.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 10, 2020, 07:48:13 AM
I can't be arsed to start a VPN to read ML's link

"451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact websupport@wwub.com or call 509-525-3301."

May I please ask folk to note that they are probably referring to HCQ not CQ..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on April 10, 2020, 07:51:44 AM
I can't be arsed to start a VPN to read ML's link

"451: Unavailable due to legal reasons
We recognize you are attempting to access this website from a country belonging to the European Economic Area (EEA) including the EU which enforces the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR) and therefore access cannot be granted at this time. For any issues, contact websupport@wwub.com or call 509-525-3301."

May I please ask folk to note that they are probably referring to HCQ not CQ..


The trial will look at different combinations of chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine and the antibiotic azithromycin. Hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine have been used to treat malaria and some inflammatory conditions, but have not been proven as treatment for COVID-19.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 10, 2020, 07:57:30 AM

The trial will look at different combinations of chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine and the antibiotic azithromycin. Hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine have been used to treat malaria and some inflammatory conditions, but have not been proven as treatment for COVID-19.

Thanks, Grumpy

I have a v.close relative that has reason to take HCQ as part of a cocktail of potentially lethal drugs and some utter plonkers have been buying up stock due to some v.dodgy clinical trials

http://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1432  (http://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1432)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 10, 2020, 08:21:27 AM

I suppose a good deworming might make you feel better.

http://www.webmd.com/drugs/2/drug-1122/ivermectin-oral/details

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=229893

Second link is more on topic.

I knew what the drug is for, but it is in clinical trial currently as a covid treatment.

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/928345
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011

Unlike HCQ, which immobilizes the virus as the person immunity then destroys it, the drug appears to identify the virus as a parasite and attacks it and prevents it from replicating.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 10, 2020, 08:47:29 AM

Also from ML's article

The goal of the Washington University trial is to determine if any of the medications decrease the severity or duration of respiratory symptoms associated with the new coronavirus.

“There have been only a few small studies that have evaluated chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine in patients with COVID-19 infection, and the results are unclear,” infectious disease specialist Rachel M. Presti said in a statement. Presti is an associate professor of medicine, and is co-leading the trial.

Patients hospitalized with confirmed cases of COVID-19 at Barnes-Jewish Hospital will be enrolled.

There will be four groups of patients in the trial. One will receive chloroquine, a second will receive hydroxychloroquine, a third will receive chloroquine and azithromycin, and the fourth will receive hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin.

What is missing from the article is at what level of COVID-19 the test subjects will have when given the medicines. These medicines were given to mostly old patients in critical conditions in hospitals. I can't imagine they'll allow patients in critical condition to leave the hospital to go to a test lab. They'll probably test the medicines on younger people that are not in critical condition. Also, not only do they need to find medicines that work, they need to find the dosage that is ideal. There will be many tests involved. The good thing is those medicines have already been tested on other diseases so they already know the safe levels they can prescribe the medicine to people.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on April 10, 2020, 11:26:45 AM
As doctors learn more about the disease, however, both frontline experience and a few small studies are leading him and others to question how, and how often, mechanical ventilators are used for Covid-19.

The first batch of evidence relates to how often the machines fail to help. “Contrary to the impression that if extremely ill patients with Covid-19 are treated with ventilators they will live and if they are not, they will die, the reality is far different,” said geriatric and palliative care physician Muriel Gillick of Harvard Medical School.

Researchers in Wuhan, for instance, reported that, of 37 critically ill Covid-19 patients who were put on mechanical ventilators, 30 died within a month. In a U.S. study of patients in Seattle, only one of the seven patients older than 70 who were put on a ventilator survived; just 36% of those younger than 70 did. And in a study published by JAMA on Monday, physicians in Italy reported that nearly 90% of 1,300 critically ill patients with Covid-19 were intubated and put on a ventilator; only 11% received noninvasive ventilation. One-quarter died in the ICU; 58% were still in the ICU, and 16% had been discharged.

Older patients who do survive risk permanent cognitive and respiratory damage from being on heavy sedation for many days if not weeks and from the intubation, Gillick said.

To be sure, the mere need for ventilators in Covid-19 patients suggests many in the studies were so critically ill their chances of survival were poor no matter what care they received.

But one of the most severe consequences of Covid-19 suggests another reason the ventilators aren’t more beneficial. In acute respiratory distress syndrome, which results from immune cells ravaging the lungs and kills many Covid-19 patients, the air sacs of the lungs become filled with a gummy yellow fluid. “That limits oxygen transfer from the lungs to the blood even when a machine pumps in oxygen,” Gillick said.

As patients go downhill, protocols developed for other respiratory conditions call for increasing the force with which a ventilator delivers oxygen, the amount of oxygen, or the rate of delivery, she explained. But if oxygen can’t cross into the blood from the lungs in the first place, those measures, especially greater force, may prove harmful. High levels of oxygen impair the lung’s air sacs, while high pressure to force in more oxygen damages the lungs.

http://www.statnews.com/2020/04/08/doctors-say-ventilators-overused-for-covid-19/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 10, 2020, 12:44:04 PM
Really great news Grumpy !!

You had better be glad this isn't ancient Greek times where those like you who deliver bad news would be . . . .
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 10, 2020, 12:51:29 PM

Unlike HCQ, which immobilizes the virus as the person immunity then destroys it..

It is thought - in some cases ... you post as if it is a known panacea..   :deadhorse:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 10, 2020, 01:00:15 PM
'Indeed' ?

I'll mention this to our friend Anatoly in Pattaya.. He'll be glad to know.. given his April 5th Flight was cancelled, his wife had a an unscheduled hysterectomy and he's still in Thailand ..


If it is about flights being cancelled, that is a commercial and not .gov matter.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 10, 2020, 01:19:02 PM

Trump had his briefing and answered questions.

He said America is doing fine and we will have a surplus of PPE and ventilators to send to Mexico and Europe. He said because Americans have made good decisions our projected deaths may be below 60K.

He was asked about Sweden not closing schools and their approach to the virus. Trump said he' seeing problems in Sweden develop and said if we took the same approach, we'd have 2 million dead.

He criticized China for many things and said they get their way many times in international organizations because they have favorable status being labeled a developing nation.

One reporter who's always nasty to Trump said governors complain they don't have enough supplies. Trump asked him to name the governors which the reporter didn't do. Trump said his administration is on the phone with governors everyday and they compliment on what a good job the federal government is doing. He said there are fewer calls because there are less emergencies and it's why there is an abundance of PPE and ventilators to where he can begin to make decisions to sending the supplies to other countries. Trump even said there are empty beds in New York and on hospital ships so if anything, they over did it when preparing for the virus.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 10, 2020, 01:25:13 PM
.... In a U.S. study of patients in Seattle, only one of the seven patients older than 70 who were put on a ventilator survived; just 36% of those younger than 70 did. And in a study published by JAMA on Monday, physicians in Italy reported that nearly 90% of 1,300 critically ill patients with Covid-19 were intubated and put on a ventilator; only 11% received noninvasive ventilation. One-quarter died in the ICU; 58% were still in the ICU, and 16% had been discharged...

Similar to summary information I heard from medical interviews that half of those placed on ventilators succumbed.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 10, 2020, 01:30:28 PM
Was talking to my son today.  His MD friend in a large German city told him that the biggest problem he sees lies with obesity, even more so than pre-existing respiratory conditions.  Not only do the lungs and heart have to work overtime to oxygenate a larger body, but that additional weight also impedes the lungs to expand to their potential.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 10, 2020, 01:31:33 PM
If it is about flights being cancelled, that is a commercial and not .gov matter.

??


The Russian Federation banned all flights inbound from midnight on the 27th March .. irrespective of firm / nationality of the carrier - charter and scheduled  ...




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on April 10, 2020, 01:33:19 PM
yes, the Russians got the Truman in addition to the Roosevelt...
and the Persians have lined Hormuz with missiles...
gettin ready to rumble BOYZ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 10, 2020, 01:37:39 PM
The Russian Federation banned all flights inbound from midnight on the 27th March .. irrespective of firm / nationality of the carrier - charter and scheduled  ...

Is Russia denying entry to their own citizens that show up at a border checkpoint? 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: mhr7 on April 10, 2020, 04:17:44 PM
??


The Russian Federation banned all flights inbound from midnight on the 27th March .. irrespective of firm / nationality of the carrier - charter and scheduled  ...

Actually it was the 18th of March. I was due to fly to Russia on the 17th from JFK to SVO and Aeroflot wouldn't let me board because I would have landed on the 18th after the border was closed.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: LAman on April 10, 2020, 04:53:29 PM
Was talking to my son today.  His MD friend in a large German city told him that the biggest problem he sees lies with obesity, even more so than pre-existing respiratory conditions.  Not only do the lungs and heart have to work overtime to oxygenate a larger body, but that additional weight also impedes the lungs to expand to their potential.

Give that obese person a double-double cheeseburger , that'll increase their lung size!!! ))


One of biggest problems with obese people is they are very likely to be diabetic, along with other heart issues.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: LAman on April 10, 2020, 05:19:01 PM
??


The Russian Federation banned all flights inbound from midnight on the 27th March .. irrespective of firm / nationality of the carrier - charter and scheduled  ...

You do mean international flights. Domestic flights still running.
I agree with mhr7, international flights stopped on 18th. For Russian nationals not sure if/when it stopped. Surely after March 27 date!! You need update your info Moby!!!

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fria.ru%2F20200326%2F1569163936.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 11, 2020, 01:56:35 AM
You do mean international flights. Domestic flights still running.
I agree with mhr7, international flights stopped on 18th. For Russian nationals not sure if/when it stopped. Surely after March 27 date!! You need update your info Moby!!!

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fria.ru%2F20200326%2F1569163936.html

OMG

Save me from 'experts' .. :D

You know I think I'd know, as wifey was trying to get back TO Russia ;

1/ She'd had an earlier Etihad flt via Abu Dhabi cancelled

2/ OF COURSE international flights

3/ Wifey flew in to SVO Moscow at 04:30 MSK (26th March 2020) on a 100 percent full Rossiya Airlines 777 ( was an Aeroflot flt) 

4/ Only 20 percent of the passengers were RU citizens the rest were (attempting to) transit - I hope they got out.

5/ The shutters came down at 00:00 27th March - irrelevant of carrier nationality / charter or scheduled ..  We have friends on later dates who are still in Thailand and await repatriation flights . The Thais, initially insisted on visa expired folks to report to an immigration centre - 'social distancing' not observed.. That may still be the case.. madness


This has all been previously documented on here.


Anyway, the 'info' LAman sought ;)


http://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/03/26/russia-to-ground-all-international-flights-over-coronavirus-a69754 (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/03/26/russia-to-ground-all-international-flights-over-coronavirus-a69754)

"Russia will halt all international flights from midnight on Friday [ 27/3/2020]  under a government decree listing new measures against the coronavirus outbreak.

The decree published on Thursday [26/3/2020]  orders aviation authorities to halt all regular and charter flights, with the exception of special flights evacuating Russian citizens from abroad."


I know as SC's flight was in the air when it was announced and I thanked God

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 11, 2020, 02:22:06 AM
Is Russia denying entry to their own citizens that show up at a border checkpoint?

I cannot say, for sure ... Another friend in Georgia ( Rep, of) drove his RU registered car back across the border ( into Russia ) at 06:00 - seven hours AFTER the inward flts ban on 27th March 2020

I have just written to him and asked for an update as he has biz interests in Sochi AND Tbilisi


This was our WhatsApp conversation,as he was crossing :

"coming back to Russia, as the factory is switched to #homeoffice"

Moby:  Can you cross?
 I know the border was closed days ago and all international flights stopped yesterday! ....Unless you are Russian?

" Yep, I’m Russian and currently driving through the boarder
At this exact moment 🤣🤣🤣"


I corrected him on the spelling of border ( in Russian) and he sent me some photos ;)

To be clear.. the border had been closed other than for RU / GE citizens ( and those with residency )  to 'repatriate' themselves ...  I THINK Armenia has an arrangement that RU drivers can takeover from  GE ones ( who swapped at the AZ/GE border ) and drive AM trucks ( as AM cannot access RU via AZ and trade staying open is vital to AM)

Leaving GE

(http://i.imgur.com/0XiMnIQ.jpg)


Queuing to enter RU nr Vladikavkas

(http://i.imgur.com/HajLk4M.jpg)



I'm not sure if RU trains run into 'Abkhazia', ( a breakaway republic of GE that RU 'recognises' as a separate entity ) anymore



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 11, 2020, 05:05:44 AM
Update re land borders:

BC,

 my friend in Sochi, who re-entered RU from GE on 27th March, responded:

"5 days after I crossed the border it was officially closed and till now it is closed even for Russian citizens. Currently the only option to come back to Russia is using charter flight organised by Ministry of Foreign affairs of Russia.

The ministry is managing the lists of people willing to come back to Russia and organises a flight. Yet the passengers have to pay 200-350$ for the tickets"


Best, Moby
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 11, 2020, 07:45:47 AM
More on HCQ...from France (http://www.newsweek.com/hydroxychloroquine-trial-gets-french-presidents-attention-460000-sign-petition-supporting-1497218?amp=1)

Most of yesterday’s reports appears to suggest the US had flattened the curve so much so most of the additional provisions supplied by FEMA and the Army Corps of Engineers, hospital beds, ventilators, PPEs, etc. we’re for naught and are either going back to the national stockpile or being switched around to hot spots. Even the two medical ships were barely used, especially the one sent to NY, Comfort.

Ventilators became such a huge issue but never even came to justify the panic that surrounded it. California readied 11,000 units only to have used barely half of it. Trump yesterday even suggested maybe shipping some of them overseas. Not bad considering we’re supposed to have an inferior healthcare system.

None of any of the models that were presented even remotely came close to fruition. Even the most conservative of model was still grossly over-estimated.

Despite the 500,000 confirmed infection, with < 20,000 deaths, hard to believed it paralyzed our nation to a halt if you consider seasonal flu kills more of us on literally any given year (http://www.livescience.com/amp/new-coronavirus-compare-with-flu.html).

What this looks like is, we don’t care about dying as long as we know what’s killing us. But something begins killing that our science haven’t identified, we do stupid things like hoard toilet papers, stay home and cower, and stop the world from spinning.

This may turn out to be the classic mother-of-all over-reaction.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 11, 2020, 08:18:43 AM
GQ,

What you have to calculate in is also that intensive care folks usually stay on respirators for a long time, 2,3 4 weeks.  The daily rate of infection has not gone down except for typical weekend lulls as it seems labs may be taking weekends.

See the attached graphic.  The US still has a long way to go.  We also have another 3 weeks or so till the new infection numbers fall to a manageable figure.  Fall in deaths and intensive care numbers is slow and will take even longer.  As you can see, the virus is tenacious.

Was the acquisition of ventilators and such overkill? Never.  They can be sent to other countries that may still need them or put back into storage for the inevitable next time.

Note scale is approx. x5 for the US numbers, steady at 30,000 infections daily.  The red X is probably where we're at in the US in comparison, but the plateau may well be longer than ours here in Italy due to many factors.

The flat-top indicates that containment efforts are having an effect.  The peak could have been much much higher. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 11, 2020, 08:31:27 AM
Trump yesterday even suggested maybe shipping some of them overseas.


Suggested? Trump WILL help Italy and other countries with supplies. America has managed the virus enough to slow infections and now we have more supplies than we need so Trump made the pledge to send PPE and ventilators elsewhere

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/trump-says-us-will-help-italy-with-medical-supplies-hospitals/ar-BB12sLAR?ocid=spartanntp

Of course fake news continues to write articles saying governors have to fight over PPE and they're on their own since the federal government doesn't want to help. Did you hear that reporter in yesterday's briefing ask about the States governors don't have enough PPE and Trump said "what governors?" and the guy didn't answer. You can be sure he'll write a fake news story like the one below written yesterday.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/states-do-battle-for-coronavirus-protective-gear-in-a-market-driven-by-chaos-and-fear/ar-BB12rD0L?ocid=spartanntp

None of any of the models that were presented even remotely came close to fruition. Even the most conservative of model was still grossly over-estimated.

Despite the 500,000 confirmed infection, with < 20,000 deaths, hard to believed it paralyzed our nation to a halt if you consider seasonal flu kills more of us on literally any given year (http://www.livescience.com/amp/new-coronavirus-compare-with-flu.html).

What this looks like is, we don’t care about dying as long as we know what’s killing us. But something begins killing that our science haven’t identified, we do stupid things like hoard toilet papers, stay home and cower, and stop the world from spinning.

This may turn out to be the classic mother-of-all over-reaction.

The projections of deaths are lower because we took adequate action against the virus. A draconian style lockdown and getting surrounded by the army wasn't necessary but there's still going to be a lot of deaths. Most of the people infected are still battling the virus and a portion of them will be placed in the dead pile. This virus is much more harmful to our way of life compared to past coronavirus SARS and MERS. It's not easily controlled and defeated like those viruses and plagues are. This is the virus of the century and worse than the Spanish Flu. I wish we were combating the Spanish flu virus instead of a coronavirus. With the level of medical science and technology we have these days, finding a vaccine and treatments for flu viruses are easy.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 11, 2020, 08:33:40 AM
America has managed the virus enough to slow infections

There was fake news for all to see  :deadhorse:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 11, 2020, 08:44:21 AM

It's official. Today President Trump ordered a “robust assistance package” to be sent to Italy.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/492339-trump-orders-robust-assistance-package-for-italy

There was fake news for all to see  :deadhorse:

If you think things are wildly out of control in America and Trump sends our medical supplies elsewhere, he will pay at the polls. Worry about your problems in the UK. You'll be getting an aid package from America soon. You can thank Trump later.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 11, 2020, 09:11:54 AM
It's official. Today President Trump ordered a “robust assistance package” to be sent to Italy.

http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/492339-trump-orders-robust-assistance-package-for-italy

If you think things are wildly out of control in America and Trump sends our medical supplies elsewhere, he will pay at the polls. Worry about your problems in the UK. You'll be getting an aid package from America soon. You can thank Trump later.

'Thank you', Silly BillyB ..  I hardly think what will happen at the polls is relevant, NOW ..  ' Trampu's' the man in the driving seat and has lurched all over the road re policy ..and daft pronouncements and politicking. 

'My' govt is the same re the daft pronouncements ..

What  our nations need is for people to stay at home, and be testing health and care workers ...


If one nation is helping another and it's needed..great ...

I have no problems whether it comes from Russia, America, China.





Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 11, 2020, 10:00:56 AM
GQ,

What you have to calculate in is also that intensive care folks usually stay on respirators for a long time, 2,3 4 weeks.  The daily rate of infection has not gone down except for typical weekend lulls as it seems labs may be taking weekends.

See the attached graphic.  The US still has a long way to go.  We also have another 3 weeks or so till the new infection numbers fall to a manageable figure.  Fall in deaths and intensive care numbers is slow and will take even longer.  As you can see, the virus is tenacious.

Was the acquisition of ventilators and such overkill? Never.  They can be sent to other countries that may still need them or put back into storage for the inevitable next time.

Note scale is approx. x5 for the US numbers, steady at 30,000 infections daily.  The red X is probably where we're at in the US in comparison, but the plateau may well be longer than ours here in Italy due to many factors.

The flat-top indicates that containment efforts are having an effect.  The peak could have been much much higher.

Hi BC-

I had just finished watching NY's Andrew Cuomo's press briefing. Rather interesting that he pretty much echoed all of what I posted upthread. I've always been far more interested in NY's situation than that of my state for no other reason than NY is the epicenter of the infection. In the short 45 minutes, he covered many of the current main topics surrounding this virus and its impact. NY, for me, is easily the 'measuring stick', of all things COVID in the US.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZUWxhtJR7E

Heck, he even shut down the buzz about a possible presidential run once and for all.

Scientifically, I can't argue the point in your graph. My only apprehension in these studies is it is lacking certain valid intangibles the actually impacts the field condition at any given time, thus in many ways - presently unpredictable. These graphs, like the modeling, are really nothing more than 'educated predictions', or FWIW, a guesstimates. A good example of this is the 50-year unemployment graph recently used to show the sudden spike this year.

It's never about the 'infection rate for me. it was always about the % of hospitalization. NY have almost 173K, at one time it was getting roughly 40% hospitalization rate, which was mind-blowing, yet to date, it only caused 8,600 deaths. A little less than 5% rate. That's not based on actual tested number and not even considering comorbidity argument. NY's situation looks really bad but not if you really take a closer look at the pertinent numbers.

I saw an interview from a doctor from the university of Washington yesterday declaring the pandemic in the US is all but over. Whether that's the case or not, of course remains to be seen.
 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 11, 2020, 10:11:54 AM
Yes GQ, it ain't over till it's over.

I'm gonna sign off here and spend the Easter weekend with family. 

Enjoy yours as well.  Many are not so lucky these days.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 11, 2020, 10:12:43 AM
Happy Easter!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on April 11, 2020, 11:26:57 AM
Happy Easter!

Happy Easter,

At my house we will celebrate it twice 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 11, 2020, 11:34:12 AM
It’s a beautiful spring day in LA. All the birds are out singing and masked people are slowly walking about however scarce.

Enjoy your Easter, Bill!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 11, 2020, 01:34:26 PM
Happy Easter,

At my house we will celebrate it twice

Same here.

Wife insisted on cleaning house and making me clean all my stuff (mostly mail items) off the dining room table.

I told her this wasn't even her Easter, but she still insisted.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 11, 2020, 09:11:20 PM
Same here.

Wife insisted on cleaning house and making me clean all my stuff (mostly mail items) off the dining room table.

I told her this wasn't even her Easter, but she still insisted.

My wife cleaned house thoroughly today. She made me clean up my man cave.


Indigenous people everywhere may not fair well if the coronavirus comes their way. If I remember correctly, around 90% of Indians died from White man's diseases.

http://www.time24.news/i/2020/04/15-year-old-yanomami-indian-dies-in-roraima-after-6-days-in-the-icu-roraima-2.html

I don't watch right wing media and although I've been bashing left wing media for their handling and deception about the coronavirus crisis, I watch the video below and seen a lot of right wing media been very wrong about the virus too. They should get better experts to get their info from next time. Liberals will love the video below.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NAh4uS4f78o
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 12, 2020, 07:26:58 AM

What this looks like is, we don’t care about dying as long as we know what’s killing us. But something begins killing that our science haven’t identified, we do stupid things like hoard toilet papers, stay home and cower, and stop the world from spinning.

This may turn out to be the classic mother-of-all over-reaction.
I haven't missed a day of work, haven't shut down my shop for 30 seconds.  I'm from Missouri the "Show me State".  In addition, I guess I'm prepared to die if that is what it comes down to....although I'm practicing social distancing as best as I can.    On the downside, my household is running low on TP so there is a chance I may have to raid Trenchcoat or Billyb's stockpiles. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 12, 2020, 07:28:29 AM

Despite the 500,000 confirmed infection, with < 20,000 deaths, hard to believed it paralyzed our nation to a halt if you consider seasonal flu kills more of us on literally any given year (http://www.livescience.com/amp/new-coronavirus-compare-with-flu.html).


So far.  One day after your post, your < 20,000 is > 20,000. 

It's not over.  Its over when we have a vaccine or an effective treatment method.  Until then, we will have an endemic level of COVID-19 just as we have an endemic level of flu.  IMO the endemic level of COVID-19 will cause as many deaths on an annual basis as seasonal flu.   Maybe more deaths, given that COVID is more contagious and the populations most vulnerable to flu and COVID are the same.   

If COVID-19 is indeed an endemic disease that will not go away, it means that eventually all of us will become infected.   


Quote
What this looks like is, we don’t care about dying as long as we know what’s killing us. But something begins killing that our science haven’t identified, we do stupid things like hoard toilet papers, stay home and cower, and stop the world from spinning.

You are correct.  But there is more.   

Its all about perceived risk rather than actual scientific risk.  Perception of risk is dependent upon 1) history/experience (as you mentioned), 2) whether the encounter is voluntary or involuntary, 3) consequences, 4) the length of time from the encounter to consequences, and 5) public attention.     

For example, some idiots voluntarily smoke tobacco even though tobacco is known to both initiate and promote cancer as well as impair heart health, the two largest causes of death.       

Seasonal flu has been with us for eons.  COVID-19 is brand new.  With regard to flu we voluntarily go about our lives  doing little more than taking a flu vaccine and avoiding obviously sick people.    Is COVID-19  scientifically more virulent than flu in terms of transmissibility and fatality ratio?  Somewhat, but I contend not to the degree perceived by the public, a perception exacerbated by  the national attention given to it.  And that is driving public policy. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 12, 2020, 07:30:19 AM

Indigenous people everywhere may not fair well if the coronavirus comes their way. If I remember correctly, around 90% of Indians died from White man's diseases.

 
The "White man" paid an enormous price in blood from past pandemics that circulated throughout Europe.  The ones that survived passed on some strong survival genes.  Indigenous populations from other regions may not see the same benefit from these genes and may be more susceptible to virus's like this. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 12, 2020, 07:33:48 AM

For example, some idiots voluntarily smoke tobacco even though tobacco is known to both initiate and promote cancer as well as impair heart health, the two largest causes of death.       
..and other 'idiots' will play golf and get excessive sun exposure despite knowing the sun can cause skin cancer.    I'd say let the 'idiots' do what they enjoy without labeling them 'idiots'. 

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 12, 2020, 07:45:50 AM

So far.  One day after your post, your < 20,000 is > 20,000. 

I was going to raise this - THE most crassly stupid post I've read on here, tomorrow ..


But as you noticed GQB's howler, too ..

Did 'we' have to stay indoors when the flu' was raging....?  No ...   IMPOSSIBLE to know what would have / what will happen - given US / UK  numbers are still increasing ..   

When I read IDIOT's say, "see, the 'models of doom' were exaggerated" one HAS to wonder ...   are they trolling or that THICK?









Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 12, 2020, 08:17:29 AM
I was going to raise this - THE most crassly stupid post I've read on here, tomorrow ..

R-E-L-A-X.  You exaggerate.  Howler?  No.

The curve is flattening, yet each day of course will increase the cumulative total, but still not 4x nor 3x seasonal flu deaths, something we accept. 

GQ's point whether precise or not is the focus of deciding what public policy to follow now that most people have been scared shitless.

 

Quote
When I read IDIOT's say, "see, the 'models of doom' were exaggerated" one HAS to wonder ...   are they trolling or that THICK?

I am missing your point.  The models as originally designed did overstate the number of deaths, the number of ventilators needed, etc.  The models have now been recalibrated. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 12, 2020, 08:20:01 AM
IMO the endemic level of COVID-19 will cause as many deaths on an annual basis as seasonal flu.   Maybe more deaths, given that COVID is more contagious and the populations most vulnerable to flu and COVID are the same.   

If COVID-19 is indeed an endemic disease that will not go away, it means that eventually all of us will become infected.   


In the last few days,  COVID-19 is killing 2000 Americans daily. That pace makes it the #1 killer of Americans and would kill 730,000 Americans a year. The flu kills 12,000-62,000 in any given year. Imagine if we did nothing and went about our lives as normal. COVID would easily kill millions if not tens of millions of Americans a year.

I posted a funny video showing right wing media severely underestimating the virus but in all fairness, we weren't hurting a month ago. In over a month and a half, from January 21 when our first case showed up to March 12 we had 1581 cases and 41 deaths. That is nothing compared to what the flu was doing to us in that period. Probably why left wing media sharply criticized Trump's European travel ban on March 12 and ban of travel from China in January. They and their expert sources underestimated the seriousness of this virus too.

So with closing schools, implementing stay at home orders and shutting down a good portion of the economy, in one month we went from 1581 cases to 534,494 cases and 41 deaths to 20,637 deaths. The numbers are climbing exponentially even with action taken against the virus. If one looked at the Chinese numbers, it wouldn't give the impression that this virus was so deadly and contagious. The news experts and their expert sources should've factored in China was lying and didn't allow independent organizations to observe what was going on in their country. Experts on China should've known the virus was much worse than they disclosed. With constant action against the virus, we won't allow the numbers to go up exponentially but without a vaccine, we have to continue to take action against the virus which means we will do nothing from time to time and probably have to wear masks when we go out.

If we all get infected, I predict tens of millions of Americans will die and hundreds of millions worldwide will die. By taking action to limit the spread, we can spread those deaths over time and keep our hospitals from getting overwhelmed. It has not been determined if we have an immunity to this coronavirus yet. It may be possible to get COVID-19 more than once and the level of severity may vary like it does with the common cold. Sometimes we barely notice we have a cold, sometimes it'll floor us.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 12, 2020, 08:25:28 AM
R-E-L-A-X.  You exaggerate.  Howler?  No.

The curve is flattening,

SERIOUS Q :  on what data do you base this assertion .... I've just seen the deaths per nation graphs on the UK's govts latest BS to the nation ..

'We' are behind and paralleling France / Italy .. not good ..

The USA ... your curve... is akin to an Atlas Rocket exiting the atmosphere ((

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 12, 2020, 09:02:37 AM

So far.  One day after your post, your < 20,000 is > 20,000.

Absolutely. It will get even higher. It's the studied progress of the estimated 2-week lag progression of the disease. The death rate at >5% will still register daily counts until the 'critical from 'severe' from 'hospitalization' from 'infection' diminishes. The latter 4 stages however are being noted as on a downward scale.

Estimates ranges from 80-85% of those infected suffer only mild condition. Of the total infection, only >5% are hospitalized. 5% of that number die of complications brought on by, or because of, COVID. Comorbidity is still up for debate since this disease seem to kill those with compromised health condition, or those of advanced ages.

But these numbers are not correct either for no other reason than, so far people only get tested when they show symptoms. If we somehow knew how many are actually 'infected', symptomatic or asymptomatic, then the relevant numbers from hospitalization to death will make these relationship percentages even lower. *Possibly* making this virus a lot less virulent than we have given it credit for.

From CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6915e3.htm)

Quote
During March 1–30, underlying medical conditions and symptoms at admission were reported through COVID-NET for approximately 180 (12.1%) hospitalized adults (Table); 89.3% had one or more underlying conditions. The most commonly reported were hypertension (49.7%), obesity (48.3%), chronic lung disease (34.6%), diabetes mellitus (28.3%), and cardiovascular disease (27.8%). Among patients aged 18–49 years, obesity was the most prevalent underlying condition, followed by chronic lung disease (primarily asthma) and diabetes mellitus. Among patients aged 50–64 years, obesity was most prevalent, followed by hypertension and diabetes mellitus; and among those aged ≥65 years, hypertension was most prevalent, followed by cardiovascular disease and diabetes mellitus. Among 33 females aged 15–49 years hospitalized with COVID-19, three (9.1%) were pregnant. Among 167 patients with available data, the median interval from symptom onset to admission was 7 days (interquartile range [IQR] = 3–9 days). The most common signs and symptoms at admission included cough (86.1%), fever or chills (85.0%), and shortness of breath (80.0%). Gastrointestinal symptoms were also common; 26.7% had diarrhea, and 24.4% had nausea or vomiting.

If relevant, the H1N1 fatality rate worldwide had a range of 150,000 - 500,000 dead worldwide. BC mentioned in Italy, they're doing (or had started doing) posthumously determining actual cause of death. My point is, current COVID death count may in fact be inflated, or at the least, stands to scrutiny as H1N1.

Quote
It's not over.  Its over when we have a vaccine or an effective treatment method.  Until then, we will have an endemic level of COVID-19 just as we have an endemic level of flu.  IMO the endemic level of COVID-19 will cause as many deaths on an annual basis as seasonal flu.   Maybe more deaths, given that COVID is more contagious and the populations most vulnerable to flu and COVID are the same.

The R0 of COVID is currently estimated at 2+. Influenza A and Influenza B is at 1+, but this is with administration of vaccine on an annual basis. Without this vaccine, the infection rate will likely be on the same threshold COVID is. Despite the availability of the vaccine, it still kill thousands of people every year. Covid will not be any different in this regard even IF we develop a vaccine or therapy drug.

Quote
If COVID-19 is indeed an endemic disease that will not go away, it means that eventually all of us will become infected.

The only thing I've read so far that may be different with COVID is that it is 'stable'. Studies at this time shows it doesn't mutate as rapidly as the other strains of corona viruses. Will it be endemic? That's almost a guarantee. However, based on the studies I mentioned, it may not be as pervasive as Influenza A/B.   

Quote
You are correct.  But there is more.   

Its all about perceived risk rather than actual scientific risk.  Perception of risk is dependent upon 1) history/experience (as you mentioned), 2) whether the encounter is voluntary or involuntary, 3) consequences, 4) the length of time from the encounter to consequences, and 5) public attention.     

For example, some idiots voluntarily smoke tobacco even though tobacco is known to both initiate and promote cancer as well as impair heart health, the two largest causes of death.

Exactly.       

Quote
Seasonal flu has been with us for eons.  COVID-19 is brand new.  With regard to flu we voluntarily go about our lives  doing little more than taking a flu vaccine and avoiding obviously sick people.    Is COVID-19  scientifically more virulent than flu in terms of transmissibility and fatality ratio? Somewhat, but I contend not to the degree perceived by the public, a perception exacerbated by  the national attention given to it.  And that is driving public policy.

I completely agree with the bolded part. At present, it seems the more we know about the virus, the more it seems we've over-estimated its virulence judging from the failed models previously presented. It isn't to say this is not of a major concern, but as all the other virulent viruses of the past - this, too will come to pass in the same fashion. Just MHO.

I posted this thought to begin discussion about the biggest issue of today - when/how/what do we need to do and understand to get our societies back to normalcy, or is that even possible given what we know as of today?

Note: The 'post' wasn't posted to give those who falsely think more of themselves, otherwise repeatedly proven to the contrary, another reason to further validate the obvious.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on April 12, 2020, 09:04:30 AM


Roseland Hospital phlebotomist: 30% of those tested have coronavirus antibody

“A lot of people have high antibodies, which means they had the coronavirus
but they don’t have it anymore and their bodies built the antibodies,”

http://chicagocitywire.com/stories/530092711-roseland-hospital-phlebotomist-30-of-those-tested-have-coronavirus-antibody

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 12, 2020, 09:16:48 AM

Roseland Hospital phlebotomist: 30% of those tested have coronavirus antibody

“A lot of people have high antibodies, which means they had the coronavirus
but they don’t have it anymore and their bodies built the antibodies,”

http://chicagocitywire.com/stories/530092711-roseland-hospital-phlebotomist-30-of-those-tested-have-coronavirus-antibody

OR

1/ There were / are asymptomatic

2/ The tests are faulty

3/ There is some 'suggestion' ... too early to confirm   / that is IS possible to get 'it' again,  (but another mutated strain) ?

http://nypost.com/2020/04/07/51-recovered-coronavirus-patients-test-positive-again-in-south-korea/

There are so many stories flying around...




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 12, 2020, 09:40:13 AM
At present, it seems the more we know about the virus, the more it seems we've over-estimated its virulence judging from the failed models previously presented. It isn't to say this is not of a major concern, but as all the other virulent viruses of the past - this, too will come to pass in the same fashion. Just MHO.


When America had 6 cases and zero deaths, Trump cut off China. When we had 38 deaths, Trump cut off most of Europe. We are not dealing with the flu. We are dealing with the virus of the century that has a case fatality rate worse than the Spanish flu, the virus of century last century. Most of the models have been wrong simply because we've taken action or we have bad data. It is political suicide for leaders to report bad news so we are seeing a massive amount of underreporting of deaths. With bad data, it's hard to create a good model.

Data and models may not tell the full truth but what we do know is hospitals can handle births, flus, colds, other illnesses and physical injuries of their community. One COVID-19 outbreak overloads hospitals, destroys the medical community and ruins the economy. A few days ago Italy reported 80 doctors dead, 20 nurses dead, and 12,000 medical personnel infected in their 6 week battle with COVID-19. No medical community can sustain those kinds of losses in that short amount of time. It takes years to replace a medical professional. Until a vaccine is created, we must take faster action against outbreaks so they don't overwhelm our medical community. It will save lives but at a cost to our economies.

UK pledges $248 million to WHO and charities.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/uk-pledges-200-million-pounds-in-aid-to-help-stop-second-coronavirus-wave/ar-BB12uzUl?ocid=spartanntp

Singapore has a spike in cases. They are now getting tougher on people who break the rules pertaining to social distancing and masks.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/singapore-gets-stricter-on-enforcement-to-curb-spread-of-virus/ar-BB12tJud?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 12, 2020, 09:52:57 AM
My point is, current COVID death count may in fact be inflated

When in all likelihood it's WAY down on official figures in most countries, due to:

1/  time ... taken to report

2/ not testing reason for death - esp if patient is old




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 12, 2020, 10:13:57 AM
BillyB doesn't trust China's numbers ...

Who trusts Belarus' reports ?


http://eng.belta.by/society/view/cardiovascular-disease-named-leading-cause-of-death-in-belarus-in-january-march-129689-2020/ (http://eng.belta.by/society/view/cardiovascular-disease-named-leading-cause-of-death-in-belarus-in-january-march-129689-2020/)

10 APRIL 2020, 13:53
Cardiovascular disease named leading cause of death in Belarus in January-March


It MAY even be true .... for now ...

Lukashoudgo and his denial .. 'reports' that Doctors cannot say someone died of 'Korona' .. they 'die' of .... heart failure ...

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 12, 2020, 10:29:30 AM
BillyB doesn't trust China's numbers ...

Who trusts Belarus' reports ?


http://eng.belta.by/society/view/cardiovascular-disease-named-leading-cause-of-death-in-belarus-in-january-march-129689-2020/ (http://eng.belta.by/society/view/cardiovascular-disease-named-leading-cause-of-death-in-belarus-in-january-march-129689-2020/)

10 APRIL 2020, 13:53
Cardiovascular disease named leading cause of death in Belarus in January-March


It MAY even be true .... for now ...

Lukashoudgo and his denial .. 'reports' that Doctors cannot say someone died of 'Korona' .. they 'die' of .... heart failure ...

I already reported that relative of my wife's friend, who is MD in Belarus, stated that they are not allowed to put Corona on death certificate as cause of death.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 12, 2020, 10:33:06 AM
When America had 6 cases and zero deaths, Trump cut off China. When we had 38 deaths, Trump cut off most of Europe. We are not dealing with the flu. We are dealing with the virus of the century that has a case fatality rate worse than the Spanish flu, the virus of century last century. Most of the models have been wrong simply because we've taken action or we have bad data. It is political suicide for leaders to report bad news so we are seeing a massive amount of underreporting of deaths. With bad data, it's hard to create a good model.

They also resorted to 'social-spacing' during the 1917-1918 Spanish flu, Billy. Just as with the current 'pandemic', not knowing what it is that's killing us, makes it that much more threatening. Speed driving, smoking, drinking/driving, drug use, etc...also kills a whole lot of us, but people still do it despite knowing the inevitable.

Millions of people still refuse to get their flu shots every year despite knowing the consequence and the hundreds of thousands that die because of the flu every year.

The models were wrong not because of 'bad' data. They were wrong because of 'no' data.

There are NO underreporting of COVID-19 deaths, at least not in the US. We are here in the US so just leave the discussion to 'here'. You're not in China, Italy or Timbuktu so you would have no idea what's going on there. Don't be the site's usual idiots that try and do that.

At this time, if there's a dead person found at home, and that person tested positive of coronavirus - at the present time, the death is classified as 'died of COVID-19'.

Like I keep saying, comorbidity has become a subject of debate in these death rates. The very vast majority who had so far succumb to the condition, a lot of questions are being raised as to whether or not it is accurate to report the cause of death are by COVID-19 considering the underlying health conditions of many of the people who perished. For example, a person with heightened coronary disease who unfortunately contracted COVID, then suffers a heart attack and died. Was it the virus that killed the person, or the person's heart condition that ultimately failed him?

The very vast majority of people who only suffered mild condition also happens to NOT have compromised health conditions. This is currently a debate ongoing with the medical community. You certainly can have your opinion on this matter..

Quote
Data and models may not tell the full truth but what we do know is hospitals can handle births, flus, colds, other illnesses and physical injuries of their community. One COVID-19 outbreak overloads hospitals, destroys the medical community and ruins the economy. A few days ago Italy reported 80 doctors dead, 20 nurses dead, and 12,000 medical personnel infected in their 6 week battle with COVID-19. No medical community can sustain those kinds of losses in that short amount of time. It takes years to replace a medical professional. Until a vaccine is created, we must take faster action against outbreaks so they don't overwhelm our medical community. It will save lives but at a cost to our economies.

I don't care about Italy or timbuktu in this discussion. Neither of us are currently in Italy. Again, leave that type of talk to the site's idiots.

As for the rest of your post above, think *surcharge* It's a 'novel virus'. A new disease. One case of hospitalization to one million cases is one to one million hospitalized person ADDED to the current load. So anytime there's an unforeseen disease spread or an epidemic, it will be a burden that can easily surpass any given set contingency. More times than not it is simply because of the 'unknown' nature of the disease that we are prone to over-emphasize the urgency. No one knows the limitations, hence, we tend to change our behaviors and over-react.

You just laid witness to what happened in YOUR state. They never even used FEMA's hospital beds setup in your convention center. Mercy ship in California only had 11 patients on a 1,000 beds available. NY, barely used Comfort, nor did it even needed the 4 field hospitals that were setup to handle the overflow.

The biggest problem with any pandemic/epidemic is people's overly impulsive behavioral reaction to it. Maybe that's just human nature, dunno...

Quote
UK pledges $248 million to WHO and charities.


N/A

Quote
Singapore has a spike in cases. They are now getting tougher on people who break the rules pertaining to social distancing and masks.

N/A
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 12, 2020, 11:05:15 AM
Anyway, to try and continue the discussion about what can we do to try and get our society back in the midst of the current pandemic, there will be protocols many of us will be required to do.

Last Friday, management decided to give everyone a day off, and principal staff convene and met to try and see if we can streamline our company going forward.

Our field staff: We've developed a very comprehensive response programs, including a 1-2-3 buddy-system. We are designating to make sure crews consist of the same people as much as possible. If in the event someone gets relocated or designated to new project location, it will be followed by strict documentation and must be reported and validated by the project foreman and the region's safety personnel. Contact containment.

We are also highlighting, then requesting, employees with known/diagnosed underlying health condition to begin working from home until further notice. This mainly affects the general office personnel. There already are 3 employees that are already working from home as of week's end.

Our safety director will try to obtain information how to either acquire, or get services thereof, from Abbott's Rapid Testing test kits. It is our ultimate objective to get everyone tested sooner than later.

BillyB, what about you folks up there in Washington, what are you guys doing up north?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 12, 2020, 11:43:21 AM
In the last few days,  COVID-19 is killing 2000 Americans daily. That pace makes it the #1 killer of Americans and would kill 730,000 Americans a year. The flu kills 12,000-62,000 in any given year.

You are comparing a few consecutive days of statistics to years and years of statistics for flu.  And those flu statistics are concentrated each year over about 5 months.  Short interval stats will normalize over time. 
 
This virus is not going away even with mitigation.    So, Billy, how safe is "safe" by your standards?   Zero, 100, 1000 deaths per day?   

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 12, 2020, 11:50:09 AM

The USA ... your curve... is akin to an Atlas Rocket exiting the atmosphere ((

You sound very certain.  Today US cases stand at about 550,000 and deaths at 22,000.   What do you  predict by June 30?   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 12, 2020, 12:50:15 PM
I already reported that relative of my wife's friend, who is MD in Belarus, stated that they are not allowed to put Corona on death certificate as cause of death.

I know.. sorry, I should have made it clear ..I trust your source...and used it
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 12, 2020, 12:51:40 PM
You sound very certain.  Today US cases stand at about 550,000 and deaths at 22,000.   What do you  predict by June 30?

You are behind us in the curve.. hence the certainty ..no idea of the numbers...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 12, 2020, 01:14:26 PM
I like your Dr Fauci

Next time you hear 'Trampu' referring to his teams of experts, will a reporter ask .. Why don't you listen to them ?


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52264860 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52264860)

"We make a recommendation," said Dr. Anthony Fauci, when asked by @JakeTapper about reports that he and other top officials called for social distancing in February. "Often the recommendation is taken. Sometimes it's not. But it is what it is. We are where we are right now."


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 12, 2020, 01:52:33 PM
Odd thing seen in LA: homeless people wearing face masks. Yes, you have to see one to see the oddity of it.

Bumper sticker: I survived shopping at Ralph's
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 12, 2020, 02:42:57 PM
Who trusts Belarus' reports ?


I don't trust any numbers from that part of the world. Right now Ukraine said 83 people died. My MIL, a retired doctor, is living in Ivano Frankivsk and talks to doctors there and in that city alone, there are 70 dead from COVID-19. What the doctors report and what politicians report are two different things.

simply because of the 'unknown' nature of the disease that we are prone to over-emphasize the urgency. No one knows the limitations, hence, we tend to change our behaviors and over-react.


I'm not so sure about that the over reacting. China miscalculated big time. They have a habit of not reporting new viruses and plagues and most of the time they contain them but this time they failed. Italy, Spain and NY misjudged the virus by a week or so and it's costing them dearly. France and UK may have misjudged too. Most nations under reporting deaths can claim they didn't misjudge.

BillyB, what about you folks up there in Washington, what are you guys doing up north?


Some construction projects shut down completely and some are going. One project I'm working on is a swimming pool for a city's community center. They decided to restart the project even with the stay at home order. I'm not sure why a swimming pool is essential but I'm pretty sure not a lot of people will attend it's grand opening in a few months. The project is streamlined. Only a few people are allowed outside from each company at a time. Sub contractor meetings are done outside instead of the job shack. Only one person is allowed in a room at any given time. All employees have the option to refuse to work during this crisis.

You are comparing a few consecutive days of statistics to years and years of statistics for flu.  And those flu statistics are concentrated each year over about 5 months.  Short interval stats will normalize over time. 
 
This virus is not going away even with mitigation.    So, Billy, how safe is "safe" by your standards?   Zero, 100, 1000 deaths per day?   


The virus isn't the flu and the spread in hot areas of the world continue. Without action more than 2000 Americans will die everyday and of course it will climb exponentially. We have take action because this is the most dangerous pathogen by far humanity had to deal with in the last 100+ years. This is a fact. We do not need to let the virus run its course to watch how truly dangerous it is so we need to slow it down now. With enough action, the number of deaths will go down but the current action taken is crippling our economy. Herd immunity strategy is not guaranteed since we don't know if we even have an immunity to the virus after acquiring it.

What is safe? The least amount of deaths and suffering as possible. I can't put a number on that yet.  Deaths are going to happen so what course do we take that allows the least amount of deaths and suffering? We have not seen any models showing death and suffering increasing as our economy tanks and unemployment rises. Trump has seen them and he has factored them into his decisions. As we sacrifice our economy to limit the spread, save lives, and ease the burden on the medical community, we will see job losses that can result in increased suicides, starvation, homelessness, riots, crime, and other things that will deteriorate society.

Right now the government has the money to keep people on unemployment, keep businesses from going bankrupt, supply food to low income families, and pay people to stay home. That won't last forever so governments will eventually have to make some hard decisions. Our government would probably be the last government on earth to collapse. A few weeks ago 90 countries applied for loans at the IMF(International Monetary Fund) to use to help their economies while fighting the virus. America has the most money to loan at the IMF so America will may decide the fate of other nations. The destruction of the world's economies do not benefit us. A 20% unemployment rate can't keep us afloat forever and certainly we won't be able to carry half the world for long. As nations collapse, there will be increased chances that war will break out. There are a few leaders in this world that will exploit the weakness of their neighbors. There are many factors that need to be considered to keep deaths and suffering to a minimum. Trump is in the driver's seat. We may never find a vaccine and never beat the virus but Trump still needs to keep the world from coming unglued. He has a monumental load on his shoulders. Even if one doesn't like Trump, they should hope he comes out of this crises a hero. The world's future may be bleak if he fails.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 12, 2020, 06:22:32 PM

"We make a recommendation," said Dr. Anthony Fauci, when asked by @JakeTapper about reports that he and other top officials called for social distancing in February. "Often the recommendation is taken. Sometimes it's not. But it is what it is. We are where we are right now."

Tony said more than that, much more, knowing that somebody besides an immunologist should answer the question how safe is "safe," especially given the economic and social tradeoffs inherent in such decision making.       
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 12, 2020, 08:58:19 PM
Tony said more than that, much more, knowing that somebody besides an immunologist should answer the question how safe is "safe," especially given the economic and social tradeoffs inherent in such decision making.     

Hopefully, the time will come when those who worried about the economics costs will pay with their jobs.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 13, 2020, 08:16:30 AM
Hopefully, the time will come when those who worried about the economics costs will pay with their jobs.

Is the question how safe is "safe" a medical or socioeconomic question?

I wonder if those who contend Tony Fauci should be making this decision would also support having a military general and not the President be the Commander-in-Chief.  MacArthur had a superb military record yet was relieved by Truman because he promoted a wider war with China, a war that could become nuclear and lead to WWIII.  Truman's popularity dipped to the lowest in history of any serving President, and he decided not to run for re-election.   

Of course, whether Trump keeps his job depends in part upon public health as well as the economy.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 13, 2020, 08:25:43 AM
I wonder if those who contend Tony Fauci should be making this decision would also support having a military general and not the President be the Commander-in-Chief.  MacArthur had a superb military record yet was relieved by Truman because he promoted a wider war with China, a war that could become nuclear and lead to WWIII.  Truman's popularity dipped to the lowest in history of any serving President, and he decided not to run for re-election.   


I don't know how people felt about Truman back then but MacArthur wanting more action in China and Patton wanted to go into Russia. After WWII, many people were eager for peace but the Communists were very active. If America beat the Soviets and the spread of Communism, would more lives be saved, less suffering in the world, and the world be more peaceful in the end?

People are focused on just the virus but Trump has a bigger job than just the virus and that is to maintain stability and peace around the world while battling the virus.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 13, 2020, 08:32:55 AM
Is the question how safe is "safe" a medical or socioeconomic question?

Come on, Phil - no need to prove you're being obtuse..

I wonder if those who contend Tony Fauci should be making this decision would also support having a military general and not the President be the Commander-in-Chief.  MacArthur had a superb military record yet was relieved by Truman because he promoted a wider war with China, a war that could become nuclear and lead to WWIII.  Truman's popularity dipped to the lowest in history of any serving President, and he decided not to run for re-election.   

Churchill got 'rewarded' for his WWII role by being booted out of office ..   IF you are asking, "what is the point of having a team of experts around ", as Trmpu' claims ..then IGNORING the advice of Dr Fauci .. you'd HAVE a  point ...

Of course, whether Trump keeps his job depends in part upon public health as well as the economy.

But he's 'running' the show, now ....


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 13, 2020, 10:07:53 AM
If America beat the Soviets and the spread of Communism....

The point is the military equivalent of Tony Fauci should not decide whether to invade the CCCP or Red China.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 13, 2020, 10:33:03 AM
Come on, Phil - no need to prove you're being obtuse..

Such a response identifies you as the obtuse one.  You are deliberately being slow.  The question of how safe is "safe" is exactly the question, and  the answer will involve tradeoffs.    It is such a perplexing decision that you will not begin to write a substantive answer.   

If we stay in lockdown, as your criticism of Trump suggests, until all leading medical doctors say it is "safe" to go back to work, you will not see SC  until maybe mid-2021.     

Quote
IF you are asking, "what is the point of having a team of experts around ", as Trmpu' claims ..then IGNORING the advice of Dr Fauci .. you'd HAVE a  point ...
 

Trump synthesizes the opinions of Fauci and many other scientists, economists, etc.  Trump even listens to people like you (those who look only in the rearview mirror), and he answers their questions , e. g., Jim Acosta at the briefings.   

Quote
But he's 'running' the show, now ....

Yes, isn't it great!!!!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 13, 2020, 11:09:39 AM
Churchill got 'rewarded' for his WWII role by being booted out of office ..   IF you are asking, "what is the point of having a team of experts around ", as Trmpu' claims ..then IGNORING the advice of Dr Fauci .. you'd HAVE a  point ...

This, from the guy who believes global warming caused by man is causing long, dry spell in desert areas. I doubt Trump cares about any opinion coming from such characters who harbor such idiotic opinion.

Dr. Fauci, the trumpeted *EXPERT* declared late February that the US have nothing to worry about this pandemic. It changed shortly thereafter. He followed that up by giving us a whole bunch of overly-estimated models which proved way out of the ballpark. He earned a nice fortune cookie for these wonderful declarations so far.

The lastest grim estimate of dead Americans is now adjusted to 60,000! Yeay! That would put us right smack on par with 2017, 2018 seasonal flu death counts.

This is all but over except for the shouting. We scared the bejesus out of the children as it is, so let's just go back to work.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 13, 2020, 12:00:35 PM
This is all but over except for the shouting. We scared the bejesus out of the children as it is, so let's just go back to work.

That's what we said about the Iraq war also a decade ago.  Problem is we didn't have an exit strategy.  Ditto with this virus, so far no exit strategy.  Lemme tell ya, it's very tenacious.

Don't be fooled by the graphs, there are weekend lulls, guess some labs are taking weekends off. Is possible deaths on weekends are underreported as well.  My gut feeling it'll be another 6 weeks before we (in the US) note with confidence a fall in numbers of new infections which is the first indicator that should trend down.  What happens 'afterwards' can be a prolonged process as well along with risks of rebound across the nation.

I think Cuomo said it best.  http://www.cnbc.com/video/2020/04/13/new-york-gov-cuomo-on-coronavirus-i-believe-the-worst-is-over-if-we-continue-to-be-smart.html

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 13, 2020, 12:00:42 PM

This is all but over except for the shouting. We scared the bejesus out of the children as it is, so let's just go back to work.

But what about info that Billy posted indicating that corona will cause lasting physical and mental damage to those who contract it and survive ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 13, 2020, 01:17:58 PM
The point is the military equivalent of Tony Fauci should not decide whether to invade the CCCP or Red China.

Yes, the President gets to decide after listening to all the experts around him. Half the world is extremely upset that Trump gets to decide.

Dr. Fauci, the trumpeted *EXPERT* declared late February that the US have nothing to worry about this pandemic. It changed shortly thereafter. He followed that up by giving us a whole bunch of overly-estimated models which proved way out of the ballpark. He earned a nice fortune cookie for these wonderful declarations so far.


Fauci also echoed WHO advising against travel restrictions.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 13, 2020, 01:18:57 PM
That's what we said about the Iraq war also a decade ago.  Problem is we didn't have an exit strategy.  Ditto with this virus, so far no exit strategy.  Lemme tell ya, it's very tenacious.

I am reminded about a moment during an Iraq war briefing where Donald Rumsfed was asked if WMDs actually existed since they haven't found any, in which he replied,"We haven't found Saddam Hussein either, but it doesn't mean he doesn't exist!"

Saddam, Rumsfeld and Iraq is totally irrelevant..but I get your 'meaning'...

Quote
Don't be fooled by the graphs, there are weekend lulls, guess some labs are taking weekends off. Is possible deaths on weekends are underreported as well.  My gut feeling it'll be another 6 weeks before we (in the US) note with confidence a fall in numbers of new infections which is the first indicator that should trend down.  What happens 'afterwards' can be a prolonged process as well along with risks of rebound across the nation.

I stopped looking at graphs, BC. So far, the only thing it proves to this point is, it gets a daily update which means what you're looking at, or relying on, today means nothing. It's guaranteed to change tomorrow anyway. That fact has been what is consistent so far.

Quote
I think Cuomo said it best.  http://www.cnbc.com/video/2020/04/13/new-york-gov-cuomo-on-coronavirus-i-believe-the-worst-is-over-if-we-continue-to-be-smart.html

The only thing that proves about Cuomo is he's a true politician. There will not be a politician that is stupid enough to not mince those exact same words if asked for their opinion. Under the present circumstances, no doubt movement will be tiered, it'll be phased, measured/calculated. Trump wasn't kidding when he said this will be the single most difficult decision he will ever have to make so far. It's a *damned if you do, and damned if you don't* type of decision. A modicum of success under a thick, triple layer of failure REGARDLESS of which path he takes. This will largely be Trump's legacy going forward.

Since the shutdown, 300% rise on suicide rates, DV increased, Opioid deaths spiraling. Not to mention the desperation of those struck down by this pandemic on the economic scale of this problem. The country needs to move forward.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 13, 2020, 01:25:54 PM
But what about info that Billy posted indicating that corona will cause lasting physical and mental damage to those who contract it and survive ?

Without sounding insensitive, but sorry...the very vast majority of those who suffered or died from this infection aren't exactly the cream of the crop health-wise to begin with.

So it isn't like they recovered and survived the virus and all of the sudden they also got rid of obesity, diabetes, coronary ailment, pneumonia, hypertension, black lungs, etc...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 13, 2020, 01:34:03 PM
That's what we said about the Iraq war also a decade ago.  Problem is we didn't have an exit strategy.  Ditto with this virus, so far no exit strategy.  Lemme tell ya, it's very tenacious.

I agree. COVID-19 in the US will decline from the currently peaking epidemic levels to an endemic level.  Some locales could even experience another peak.   In other words, the virus will not "exit," and over the next few years perhaps 80% of the population will have been infected.  Accept it. 


Quote
Don't be fooled by the graphs, there are weekend lulls, guess some labs are taking weekends off.

The weekend pattern is not seen in Florida data, which I follow closely for my county, another county nearby, and even my postal zip code.   There are lows and highs, with the low numbers occurring on Tuesday-Wednesday.  Statewide data for 21 million population (about 1/3 of Italy's) are below: 

Date     Σ Tests   Δ Tests      Σ +'s     Δ +'s

23-Mar    13,094                1,171    
24-Mar    16,046     2,952     1,467     296
25-Mar    27,539     11,493     2,355     888
26-Mar    29,114     1,575     2,484     129
27-Mar    32,983     3,869     2,900     416
28-Mar    43,071     10,088     4,038     1,138
29-Mar    50,528     7,457     4,950     912
30-Mar    56,702     6,174     5,704     754
31-Mar    64,661     7,959     6,741     1,037
1-Apr    69,265     4,604     7,793     1,052
2-Apr    80,356     11,091     9,008     1,215
3-Apr    95,835     15,479     10,268     1,260
4-Apr    107,313     11,478     11,545     1,277
5-Apr    116,898     9,585     12,350     805
6-Apr    126,048     9,150     13,629     1,279
7-Apr    139,669     13,621     14,747     1,118
8-Apr    143,707     4,038     15,698     951
9-Apr    156,852     13,145     16,826     1,128
10-Apr    165,686     8,834     17,968     1,142
11-Apr    175,834     10,148     18,986     1,018
12-Apr    185,520     9,686     19,895     909

Quote
My gut feeling it'll be another 6 weeks before we (in the US) note with confidence a fall in numbers of new infections which is the first indicator that should trend down. 

The number of daily new cases in Florida has remained relatively flat even as the number of daily tests reached its peak.  Florida's lockdown was not stringent, e. g., the Governor declared religious services were essential. 

Our hospitalizations peaked four days ago; however, the numbers are too small to be confident about identifying a trend.  Nothing suggests we have to wait six weeks for smaller  numbers of new infections. 



          TOTAL   DAILY
DATE   HOSP.   HOSP.
      
28-Mar    567    
29-Mar    633    66
30-Mar    715    82
31-Mar    857    142
1-Apr    990    133
2-Apr    1,167    177
3-Apr    1,334    167
4-Apr    1,470    136
5-Apr    1,555    85
6-Apr    1,719    164
7-Apr    1,893    174
8-Apr    2,082    189
9-Apr    2,298    216
10-Apr    2,496    198
11-Apr    2,607    111
12-Apr    2,672    65



Quote
What happens 'afterwards' can be a prolonged process as well along with risks of rebound across the nation.

Yes
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 13, 2020, 01:43:53 PM
….So it isn't like they recovered and survived the virus and all of the sudden they also got rid of obesity, diabetes, coronary ailment, pneumonia, hypertension, black lungs, etc...

Which now brings me to this new point...

There's another slant one can surmise when one looks at the daily/total fatalities in any COVID update report/s.

Does the number of deaths in each country/region gives you a glimpse at the makeshift of any particular societies?

Is the fact that the infection rate in the US is nearly 3.5 times more than Italy's, yet the US death rate is almost at par with them - actually suggests Italy's citizens are more prone to be cigarette smokers compared to the US?

Is the fact that while black Americans represent only 18% of NY's population, but is overly represented in the death counts (33%+) because blacks generally have a higher obesity (diabetes, hypertension, smokes, etc) rate than non-Hispanic white Americans?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 13, 2020, 01:59:04 PM
the very vast majority of those who suffered or died from this infection aren't exactly the cream of the crop health-wise to begin with.


The study says those with mild or severe cases of COVID-19 can acquire damage to their organs and they may need lifetime medical care. It doesn't say healthy people are immune to organ damage. Most people will survive COVID-19 but it doesn't mean their medical needs stop there. The extra needs will be a burden on our economy.

http://news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-infection-may-cause-lasting-220307511.html

It's a good read. Here's some from the article.

“COVID-19 is not just a respiratory disorder,” said Dr. Harlan Krumholtz, a cardiologist at Yale University. “It can affect the heart, the liver, the kidneys, the brain, the endocrine system and the blood system.”

Still, doctors are worried that in its wake, some organs whose function has been knocked off kilter will not recover quickly, or completely. That could leave patients more vulnerable for months or years to come.

Another question that could take years to answer is whether the SARS-CoV-2 virus that causes COVID-19 may lie dormant in the body for years and spring back later in different form. It wouldn't be the first virus to behave that way.


Governments can't dismiss this as if it's no more dangerous than the flu. They can advertise by putting out data showing it's not bad to prevent panic though. Governments need to go after this thing as if it is the pathogen of the century. Fortunately for us, they have gone after it as if it is the pathogen of the century.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 13, 2020, 02:35:18 PM
BillyB-

Again, what I'm saying is the very vast majority of people succumbing to this virus are those with underlying health condition to begin with. It leaves to reason if drastic measures are taken to save their life, e.g. ventilator use, medication reaction, or further stress to an already compromise state, can and will only exacerbate an existing health condition.

If a person is administered tracheotomy, or intubation procedures then the likelihood of physical damage to the body is enhanced. Or if the person doesn't get adequate oxygen in its circulatory system, then there's a higher potentiality of organ failure.

The article is redundant, medically speaking, for the simple reason it is stating (or the doctor being quoted) what already is a reasonable course. Notice the ambiguity in the article.

It is these types of media reporting that is helping to make this virus far more frightening than the seasonal flu that had so far killed 3x more Americans every year. Consistently.

In certain circles, this can easily be classified as 'sensationalism'.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 13, 2020, 03:18:32 PM

Again, what I'm saying is the very vast majority of people succumbing to this virus are those with underlying health condition to begin with.

GQ, yes I think we all understand that those with underlying health conditions are the ones most likely to catch, recover badly, and die from corona.  No arguments there.

However, the words Billy quote seem to me to be applicable to very healthy people as well.

“COVID-19 is not just a respiratory disorder,” said Dr. Harlan Krumholtz, a cardiologist at Yale University. “It can affect the heart, the liver, the kidneys, the brain, the endocrine system and the blood system.”
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 13, 2020, 03:53:52 PM
New reported US casualty now at 80,000!!! Not of COVID, but of the seasonal flu in 2017.

Quote from: ML
However, the words Billy quote seem to me to be applicable to very healthy people as well.

“COVID-19 is not just a respiratory disorder,” said Dr. Harlan Krumholtz, a cardiologist at Yale University. “It can affect the heart, the liver, the kidneys, the brain, the endocrine system and the blood system.”

Respiratory system is the first casualty with the virus as it attacks both the ciliated and goblet cells. That leads to dead cells inciting blockages in the lungs which leads to pneumonia. But it is also reported that it also attacks the kidney and the spleen (which would leave the liver exposed for further compromise). Just like the SARS virus in this regard.

Both conditions triggers release of our immune system furthering damages to healthy tissues. Which, I would believe, is what the fatal complication being cited in the article. Is this unprecedented? No. Unabated, this happens with any other virulent viruses or bacterial epidemic. Moreover, it won't take long for organs to fail if the blood doesn't get properly oxygenated anyway.

My point is, healthy or otherwise, what's the *shocking* revelation in the article since this is the usual progression of such diseases. IMHO, of course. If in doubt, let's see how the likes of Rand Paul, Chris Cuomo, Boris Johnson, Tom Hanks, Rudy Gobert, Donovan Mitchell, Kevin Durant, etc...progress with their recoveries.

In 2017, it was estimated that 80,000 Americans died of the flu that year. 80,000!!! LMAO! And we have vaccines for these. That was Trump's first year as POTUS! I don't remember any talk of social distancing, face mask, lockdowns, graphs, toilet paper hoarding, flight banning, etc...

but yeah - models did reared it's ugly head: The death rate apparently was an estimate based on modeling.

Quote
CDC officials do not have exact counts of how many people die from flu each year. Flu is so common that not all flu cases are reported, and flu is not always listed on death certificates. So the CDC uses statistical models, which are periodically revised, to make estimates.

CDC officials called the 80,000 figure preliminary, and it may be slightly revised. But they said it is not expected to go down.

Fatal complications from the flu can include pneumonia, stroke and heart attack.
http://www.statnews.com/2018/09/26/cdc-us-flu-deaths-winter/

The bolded part is another display of our imperfect science - comorbidity; that's currently being debated too.

All things in life is always a matter of perspective, I guess.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 13, 2020, 04:55:54 PM
In 2017, it was estimated that 80,000 Americans died of the flu that year. 80,000!!! LMAO! And we have vaccines for these. That was Trump's first year as POTUS! I don't remember any talk of social distancing, face mask, lockdowns, graphs, toilet paper hoarding, flight banning, etc...

but yeah - models did reared it's ugly head: The death rate apparently was an estimate based on modeling.
http://www.statnews.com/2018/09/26/cdc-us-flu-deaths-winter/


No country pays much attention to the flu. All countries are taking this virus seriously so it's just not one leader of one country that is overestimating this virus. Trump didn't have models to work with in January. While the nation was busy with the impeachment, Trump paid attention to the shit show in China, their resistance to allow WHO and CDC inspectors to observe what his happening and he knows they BS big time and decided to ban travel from China in January. He knew this virus was extremely dangerous back in January and took action that shocked the world. He later shocked the world again banning travel from Europe. Our economy is going to suffer as long as this virus is around. It will suffer more and for much longer if many of those who survived COVID-19 have new health problems for life as doctors are predicting.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 13, 2020, 05:34:21 PM
I agree. COVID-19 in the US will decline from the currently peaking epidemic levels to an endemic level.  Some locales could even experience another peak.   In other words, the virus will not "exit," and over the next few years perhaps 80% of the population will have been infected.  Accept it.

Then what city will be the next NYC? Yours?  The number 1 moneymaker in FL is tourism.  Will tourists want to go there with a 'get used to it attitude'?  What percentage of that are from international tourists?  Will FL have to implement state income tax to cover the shortfall?  It is not that different here but I doubt the same approach would be applied.  Countries that can get a handle on the virus will be the future tourism hotspots.

Quote
The weekend pattern is not seen in Florida data, which I follow closely for my county, another county nearby, and even my postal zip code.   There are lows and highs, with the low numbers occurring on Tuesday-Wednesday.  Statewide data for 21 million population (about 1/3 of Italy's) are below: 

The number of daily new cases in Florida has remained relatively flat even as the number of daily tests reached its peak.  Florida's lockdown was not stringent, e. g., the Governor declared religious services were essential.

Our hospitalizations peaked four days ago; however, the numbers are too small to be confident about identifying a trend.  Nothing suggests we have to wait six weeks for smaller numbers of new infections. 

That is all fine and good!  Compliments! But how do you intend to keep it that way instead of being 'ripe' for the pickin' in viral terms with each inbound flight or carload of folks from the north?  How about all those cruise ships?

Can't we be smarter than this incredibly dumb virus that does not even have a brain?  Is rolling over and playing dead gonna work?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 13, 2020, 05:39:54 PM
Which now brings me to this new point...

As the data comes in and is analyzed, more will be known.  We sadly know very little at this point.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: calmissile on April 13, 2020, 05:46:28 PM
Am I misreading these reports?  Billy's statments imply that anyone that got the Covid-19 virus is going to suffer lasting damage to organs, etc.   My impression is that is only expected in those that have severe reactions to the virus and are on deaths doorstep.

Considering that many people contracting the virus have very mild symptoms, it seems illogical to me that they will have organ damage in the future.

Am I missing something?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 13, 2020, 05:52:06 PM
he knows they BS big time and decided to ban travel from China in January. He knew this virus was extremely dangerous back in January and took action that shocked the world. He later shocked the world again banning travel from Europe.

IIRC travel was not banned, but due to restrictions on non-citizens/residents flying to the US from China and later Italy and later other EU countries, most airlines stopped flying or in the case of EU minimized flights dramatically.  Regarding China isn't it a 'chicken or egg first' theory? Did airlines stop flying?  IIRC they had trouble finding crews to fly the planes.  Also, that checks of remaining passengers were pretty lax with no quarantine requirements nor tests and in most cases, not even a temperature taken?

I can get on a plane tomorrow bound for the US.  Maybe I'm asymptomatic, infecting folks along the way.. who is to know?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 13, 2020, 05:58:44 PM
Am I missing something?

There is some evidence from autopsies being reported here that shows clots are formed as antibodies attach themselves to this virus and may block the small capillaries in many parts of the body.  Nothing concrete yet though.  This could, however, account for permanent damage to organs that do not regenerate readily like heart and lungs and penis.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 13, 2020, 08:11:25 PM
Since the shutdown, 300% rise on suicide rates, DV increased, Opioid deaths spiraling. Not to mention the desperation of those struck down by this pandemic on the economic scale of this problem. The country needs to move forward.
Well shows how 'resilient' and 'exceptional' the US populace is. 
  If what you report is accurate moving forward may be have a higher survival rate even with the virus running loose! 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 13, 2020, 08:15:39 PM
My impression is that is only expected in those that have severe reactions to the virus and are on deaths doorstep.


The article said many with mild symptoms of COVID-19 showed loss of organ function. This is a Chinese study. It could be true or actually worse than what they're finding. Since we are behind China, Western nations will be able to put out their own findings in a month or so when it comes to understanding if survivor's organ functions returned to normal. From the article:

In a study posted this week, scientists in China examined the blood test results of 34 COVID-19 patients over the course of their hospitalization. In those who survived mild and severe disease alike, the researchers found that many of the biological measures had “failed to return to normal.”

http://news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-infection-may-cause-lasting-220307511.html

Besides the Chinese doctors saying many organ functions failed to return to normal, some Western doctors chimed in too. From the article:

Given SARS-CoV-2's affinity for lung tissue, doctors quickly suspected that some recovered COVID-19 patients would sustain lasting damage to their lungs. In infections involving the coronavirus that cause severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS), about one-third of recovered patients had lung impairment after three years, but those symptoms had largely cleared 15 years later. And researchers found that one-third of patients who suffered Middle East respiratory syndrome (MERS) had scarring of the lungs — fibrosis — that was probably permanent.

As some of you know, the media has again told us Trump and Dr. Fauci are feuding. Today's briefing hopefully put an end to that. Dr. Fauci said Trump always took his and Dr. Brix's health recommendations although unpopular to some who want the economy moving. Dr. Fauci also said this virus is worse than we could ever imagine.

I can get on a plane tomorrow bound for the US.  Maybe I'm asymptomatic, infecting folks along the way.. who is to know?


Maybe it's time to come home BC. We'll take you back, warts, infections, and all.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 13, 2020, 08:27:31 PM
No country pays much attention to the flu. All countries are taking this virus seriously so it's just not one leader of one country that is overestimating this virus. 
This seems to be pretty strong evidence that there is something more to this virus than the current death count in the US which seemingly isn't that large just yet.  It begs the question of:

 'Why would the world's leaders all fairly uniformly take such severe precautions if there wasn't good reason?

Makes me wonder what is going on.  What doesn't the public know?   

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 13, 2020, 08:45:00 PM
Makes me wonder what is going on.  What doesn't the public know?   


It's best the public doesn't know because panic will kill more than the virus. But look at the history of two other coronaviruses. Neither qualified as the virus of the century. One third of the survivors of SARS had lung impairment for up to 15 years. One third of the survivors of MERS had lung damage for life. And that is just lungs. SARS COV-19 can damage other organs too. We can't have a nation full of sick people. Sick people don't function properly, need more medical care which will stress out our hospitals, increase social programs, and hurt the economy. We can't afford that which means we can't go back to a normal life anytime soon. We must stall for time in hopes a vaccine will be created. Once created we can go back to a normal life and get the economy going 100% but we can't do that if one third of the population has health problems.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Maxx2 on April 13, 2020, 08:47:46 PM
At last some good news. Hopefully Georgia follows suit and opens their economy April 21 as promised.




http://apnews.com/ba9578acf23bdb03fd51a2b81f640560
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Maxx2 on April 13, 2020, 10:37:34 PM
From my daughter:


"Good luck, one of my coworkers ran into a operation manager at my work and he says that he thinks we will be shut down til at least July. Then they won't be able to rehire all of us because there will be rules on how close people can be etc. This whole thing is to destroy our country I swear to God. Plus take away our liberty as we know it."
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 13, 2020, 10:52:20 PM
This, from the guy who believes global warming caused by man is causing long, dry spell in desert areas. I doubt Trump cares about any opinion coming from such characters who harbor such idiotic opinion.

As yes, I noticed you were still misquoting longer dry spells and the sparks that started the Paradise fire weren't at all to do with the MUCH longer, drier spells...


Dr. Fauci, the trumpeted *EXPERT* declared late February that the US have nothing to worry about this pandemic. It changed shortly thereafter.


And.. ? He learnt more and revised his viewpoint - perfectly normal for an honest person

He followed that up by giving us a whole bunch of overly-estimated models which proved way out of the ballpark. He earned a nice fortune cookie for these wonderful declarations so far.

As we have no way of knowing if his models WERE 'over-estimations' .. He certainly explained they were worst case scenarios  - if NOTHING was done ... I'm wondering what you're trying to 'achieve' .. other than drawing attention to your ability to warp the words / intent of folks....


The lastest grim estimate of dead Americans is now adjusted to 60,000! Yeay! That would put us right smack on par with 2017, 2018 seasonal flu death counts.

But did they quarantine you ? ,,,, Are you suggesting that lock-downs are a waste of time ...?  If so, relocate to Sweden or Belarus...



This is all but over except for the shouting. We scared the bejesus out of the children as it is, so let's just go back to work.


I'll probably have that as MY strapline in a few months ... to remind you ..  :deadhorse:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 13, 2020, 11:01:18 PM
Such a response identifies you as the obtuse one.  You are deliberately being slow.  The question of how safe is "safe" is exactly the question, and  the answer will involve tradeoffs.    It is such a perplexing decision that you will not begin to write a substantive answer.   

If we stay in lockdown, as your criticism of Trump suggests, until all leading medical doctors say it is "safe" to go back to work, you will not see SC  until maybe mid-2021.     

1/ Gator - your question was answers... as long as it takes, either to find a vaccine or better treatment

2/ If that means I'll not be with SC for a while .. I'd rather have that and be paying for for the govt borrowings, than losing friends and family needlessly early

 

Trump synthesizes the opinions of Fauci and many other scientists, economists, etc.  Trump even listens to people like you (those who look only in the rearview mirror), and he answers their questions , e. g., Jim Acosta at the briefings.   

The point hat the good Doctor has made is that 'Trampu' DOESN'T listen to good advice ...

Yes, isn't it great!!!!

'Sure' ... tell THAT to lose who have lost loved ones - probably because 'Trampu' was more worried about the economy ..


Again... he is not alone in not listening to the more negative predictions and necessary steps that should have been taken ...   


SOME folks seek to shut down WHO ( or have its head replaced ) for asking govts to "TEST, TEST and TEST again" ..


Seems to me the wrong guy  is in the crosshairs of those to dumb to see who SHOULD be replaced !


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 14, 2020, 12:46:26 AM
Maybe it's time to come home BC. We'll take you back, warts, infections, and all.

Nope.  I wanted to come back in April for a birthday but nixed that.  October / November is very iffy unless we all test positive for antibodies.  Otherwise, it will be next April or when a vaccine is available.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 14, 2020, 05:28:06 AM
Then what city will be the next NYC? Yours?

There are three key differences between today and when the virus first invaded NYC:

     1.  Government is far more vigilant today - Not that long ago, the mayor was holding staff meetings at his gym, health officials were saying enjoy the parade, travelers were entering freely from Italy, etc.

    2.  We now have better tools in the medical toolbox - At the top of this list is testing.  Therapy is also better. 

    3.  Individuals venturing from home now know what to do to reduce risk of exposure.

Also dampening rebounds is that 'Reopening America' will be done in stages instead of returning immediately to 2019.    The virus will still rebound in some cities, yet surveillance will detect this early, and if so, mitigation measures will be renewed promptly (e. g., Singapore).   


Quote
The number 1 moneymaker in FL is tourism. 

It will be a long time for tourism to recover fully.  Disney has reopened in China yet at lower levels with many controls.   Yet the beaches are still still there, bathed in balmy fresh air. 


Quote
How about all those cruise ships?

They will be the next to last to reopen, just before the nude group massages. 


Quote
Can't we be smarter than this incredibly dumb virus that does not even have a brain?

The virus caught us flat footed on two fronts. 

One front is public health.  We feared the wave of infections would exceed our hospital capacity.  American resourcefulness and public behavior prevented this, and now "the worst is over" (Governor Cuomo). 

Now we face a formidable challenge on a second front -  namely,  the costs of confronting the virus could exceed the capacity of our economy, flattening it just like "flattening the curve."  If so the damage will exceed the worst case envisioned for health.

The casualties in the health battles were primarily the elderly and/or sickly.   The casualties in the economic battles will be everyone,  and will be felt as more than malaise.  It will be measured in terms of poverty, depression, addiction,  suicide....

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 14, 2020, 06:04:59 AM
1/ Gator - your question was answers... as long as it takes, either to find a vaccine or better treatment

Vaccine is a big unknown.  It could be years, although I hope not.  Therapy is improving every day with prospects for much better.  However, you would have to read something other than anti-Trump sources to understand.   

Quote
2/ If that means I'll not be with SC for a while .. I'd rather have that and be paying for for the govt borrowings, than losing friends and family needlessly early

Noble, but grossly overstated.  The epidemic wave has just hit, and is passing.  How many did we lose? 

This is declining to endemic levels.  More outbreaks  will occur, yet we will detect them sooner and respond better than for this first wave.    Stop hiding under your bed.     

 
Quote
The point hat the good Doctor has made is that 'Trampu' DOESN'T listen to good advice ...

Pay attention.  This is not what he said.  He  had enough of the false accusations from the anti-Trump crowd and answered directly in unequivocal terms this was not the case.   


Quote
Sure' ... tell THAT to lose who have lost loved ones - probably because 'Trampu' was more worried about the economy ... Again... he is not alone in not listening to the more negative predictions and necessary steps that should have been taken ...


And he should have been different from all of his G20 peers.    Actually, he was ahead of most, something that will be shown in the after-action reports.


Quote
SOME folks seek to shut down WHO ( or have its head replaced ) for asking govts to "TEST, TEST and TEST again" ..

Not seeking to shutdown WHO, but to change it.  Do not parrot what China tells you.  Instead, have its fat cat executives living in their chalets in Switzerland to verify.  Do quick studies  such as done by UK's Imperial College, or at least read contrarian reports. 


Quote
Seems to me the wrong guy  is in the crosshairs of those to dumb to see who SHOULD be replaced !

You have sunk to a new low in blind partisanship.  You might be the only non-Chinese citizen to believe this.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 14, 2020, 06:44:19 AM
 


  Do not parrot what China tells you.   

You might be the only non-Chinese citizen to believe this.   
The real reason partisan patriots like jone and gator continue to unsuccessfully berate china is because they are beating us (The US) around the globe.

We in the US refuse to do much work, and try to demonize illegal immigrants that will actually do the work. According to this article the world is rather friendly with China, and this has upset the free loading, petro dollar printing US. 

How China could win over the post-coronavirus world and leave the U.S. behind

To understand the post-COVID-19 world that is coming, there is one important human statistic we must bear in mind: 330 million people live in the U.S.; 1.4 billion in China and approximately 6 billion in the rest of the world. These 6 billion, who live in 191 countries, have begun preparing themselves for the US-China geopolitical contest. Their choices will determine who will win.....


 http://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-china-could-win-over-the-post-coronavirus-world-and-leave-the-us-behind-2020-04-14?siteid=yhoof2&yptr=yahoo  (http://www.marketwatch.com/story/how-china-could-win-over-the-post-coronavirus-world-and-leave-the-us-behind-2020-04-14?siteid=yhoof2&yptr=yahoo)

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 14, 2020, 06:48:40 AM
As yes, I noticed you were still misquoting longer dry spells and the sparks that started the Paradise fire weren't at all to do with the MUCH longer, drier spells...

Your attempt to slime your way out of the mess you created yourself is noted. Here's the exchanges to remind you again.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=21622.msg520180#msg520180

(best you try and get that thread deleted too, like the Tiger Woods deleted pages, note not post, pages - that highlighted another of your silly dandies. - which it will probably be soon)

...and since this is Gator's COVID thread, I'll make this brief for you and edooket you some...The debate that rages in California regarding these wildfires have largely to do with the attitudes by environmentalist in the State. To insure getting elected, politicians cater to these naturalist groups to preserve our natural areas and woodlands to its natural state. Meaning, no firebreaks, no roads for fire engines, no water depot/sources, etc...this was, in greater detail was what both Trump and the state's governor (Brown) argued about during, and the aftermath of, the NoCal wildfires; and in lesser degree, the Woolsey fire.

Common forestry sense and management abandoned and consequently left woodland areas undefended and were ripe for wildfires as the same 'naturalist groups' were being razed by the same 'natural element' they advocated for - wildfires - and started burning their homes and existence. So your stupid 'global warming because of man causing long, dry spell in the desert' is asinine and really way out there. Not all of these so-called environmentalist ideology work in areas heavily populated.

It's been proven repeatedly in this forum that you are the least informed poster in this, or likely the other board. Thus, I advise that you 'ask' instead of 'tell' over many subjects discussed. You'll serve yourself much better.

Quote
And.. ? He learnt more and revised his viewpoint - perfectly normal for an honest person

As we have no way of knowing if his models WERE 'over-estimations' .. He certainly explained they were worst case scenarios  - if NOTHING was done ... I'm wondering what you're trying to 'achieve' .. other than drawing attention to your ability to warp the words / intent of folks....

If it isn't clear to you, and since you 'ask' - you harped about the fake news subject that Trump is, or was not, listening to 'expert' opinion and he should. Thus, my post above.

Quote
But did they quarantine you ? ,,,, Are you suggesting that lock-downs are a waste of time ...?  If so, relocate to Sweden or Belarus...

Good. You're 'asking' again. The point of the new estimate of 60,000 is simply to illustrate that the seasonal flu fatalities is still relatively far more virulent than that of COVID in the US at this point in time. It has no relation to Sweden, Belarus or Timbuktu.

Quote
I'll probably have that as MY strapline in a few months ... to remind you ..  :deadhorse:

Please do, as I am in total lock step with New York's governor Cuomo on this one. After all, he should know more about NY than me - ESPECIALLY - far more than you.

http://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/13/coronavirus-death-toll-in-new-york-state-tops-10000-cuomo-says.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 14, 2020, 07:12:39 AM
lock-downs are a waste of time ...?  If so, relocate to Sweden or Belarus...


Not sure what all they are doing in Belarus but contrary to popular belief, Sweden has taken action. They closed schools and universities. They recommend people to stay home and they ban gatherings larger than 50. Many experts say that is not enough but it will be an interesting experiment to see if a nation can get away with less action against this virus in a gamble to save more of their economy.

http://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-04-13/as-virus-deaths-rise-sweden-sticks-to-low-scale-lockdown

The IMF has now predicted the worst recession since the Great Depression.

Among the regions projected to see the hardest hit in 2020: the Euro Area at -7.5%, Mexico at -6.6%, the United Kingdom at -6.5%, and the United States at -5.9%. China is projected to grow by 1.2%, still a noticeable downgrade from its 2019 growth rate of 6.1%.

“Much worse growth outcomes are possible and maybe even likely,” IMF Chief Economist Gita Gopinath said. The IMF cautioned that its forecast faces “extreme uncertainty” because of the difficulty around predicting the pathway of the pandemic and the efficacy of containment measures, among other factors


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/imf-the-great-lockdown-to-be-worst-recession-since-great-depression-123009231.html?.tsrc=fin-notif
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 14, 2020, 07:55:13 AM

    2.  We now have better tools in the medical toolbox - At the top of this list is testing. 


I watched Pence last night who stated that 110,000 tests per day were being performed.  That's only a little over twice the rate here in Italy.  Mentions that some states were not testing to capacity, or that materials were not on hand etc.

We'll have our own challenges with testing here, but what hit me as odd is if we in the US have a 25-30,000 positives per day with 110,000 tests, are hospitals and doctors still having difficulty getting tests done for staff? What about our elderly in assisted living homes etc?  Is the 'flattening' of new infections artificial? 

It will, of course, take a huge testing push to get and keep a handle on the virus.  I don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling about this most important aspect of recovery.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 14, 2020, 08:26:03 AM
Well shows how 'resilient' and 'exceptional' the US populace is. 
  If what you report is accurate moving forward may be have a higher survival rate even with the virus running loose! 

Fathertime!

They're mostly snowflakes, FT. But since you admitted not belonging to the 'exceptional /resilient' group that the vast majority of true Americans like myself are, we need not worry.

Unlike you, of course.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 14, 2020, 08:46:01 AM
I watched Pence last night who stated that 110,000 tests per day were being performed.  That's only a little over twice the rate here in Italy.  Mentions that some states were not testing to capacity, or that materials were not on hand etc.

We'll have our own challenges with testing here, but what hit me as odd is if we in the US have a 25-30,000 positives per day with 110,000 tests, are hospitals and doctors still having difficulty getting tests done for staff? What about our elderly in assisted living homes etc?  Is the 'flattening' of new infections artificial? 

It will, of course, take a huge testing push to get and keep a handle on the virus.  I don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling about this most important aspect of recovery.

BC-

It isn't solely about availability of test. This seeming low number of daily testing is attributable to the fact most places, if not all, are only 'testing' those showing symptoms.

I don't believe we have enough test kits to test the entire population yet, but there has been progress in enhancing not only the manufacturing of reliable test kits we have today, but also the methodology and the efficiency of getting the result. They are now even trying to get FDA approval about a 'saliva sampling test kits' as it is.

National testing is the surest way to curb and tame our nation today, health and economic sense.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 14, 2020, 08:48:35 AM
FWIW, where I am. I noticed about a 35-40% rise in rush hour traffic on my way to work this morning. Daily traffic report on the radio also noted the increase.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 14, 2020, 08:50:17 AM

The Russian government says it has carried out over 1.4 million tests for Covid-19. But Moscow doctors have recently begun diagnosing patients as positive based on lung scans because of questions over the accuracy of the tests.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/coronavirus-takes-a-serious-turn-in-russia-and-putin-no-longer-radiates-confidence/ar-BB12Ckon?ocid=spartanntp

Russia is another nation speaking on the inaccuracy of test kits. I remember reading Spain complained their Chinese test kits were 30% accurate and Czech Republic complaining their Chinese test kits were 20% accurate. That means a lot of infected people may be allowed to go back into the general population after getting tested and some non infected people may be placed in mandatory quarantine at some hotel.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 14, 2020, 09:31:40 AM
BC-

It isn't solely about availability of test. This seeming low number of daily testing is attributable to the fact most places, if not all, are only 'testing' those showing symptoms.


That would make logical sense, but the 'top of the curve' just seems way too flat IMO.  I am pretty sure any excess testing capacity would be extended to health workers, police and other critical workers.  Is that happening?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on April 14, 2020, 09:36:49 AM
This has all reminded me of a cross between The Thing and Invasion of the Body Snatchers



(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/mrz041320dAPR20200411094524.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on April 14, 2020, 09:39:21 AM
 (http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/sk041220dAPR20200411035007.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 14, 2020, 01:50:08 PM
I watched Pence last night who stated that 110,000 tests per day were being performed. 

I agree more tests are needed, and I don't know the situation.  It varies among states.   For example, Florida is doing more testing than its share based on population, about 10,000 tests per day (a peak of 15,485 yesterday with only 1,124 positives). 
 

Quote
It will, of course, take a huge testing push to get and keep a handle on the virus.  I don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling about this most important aspect of recovery.

Agree.  Testing is the key to reducing the number of infections to low numbers. 

NATIONAL GOAL:  Identify the 2-3 million "carriers" in America and isolate them, rather than isolating the entire 330 million. 

How do we scale up to huge numbers of daily tests needed to identify the "carriers?"

The 5-minute Abbott Labs test approved three weeks ago was a game changer using the small ID NOW platform, with 18,000 devices already existing in ERs, doctors’ offices, and urgent-care clinics around the country.  However, 18,000 devices is a pittance of what we need, and where will we find the medical staff to operate a huge increase in number of devices?

There is talk of a home test.  Yet, it is months away.

Meanwhile....we need to get back to work.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: jone on April 14, 2020, 02:04:35 PM
4701 vs. 731.   Interesting numbers.   The first is the seasonal average for flu deaths in the State of California.   The second number is the actual deaths in California from COVID 19.

I have always felt that the warmer the climate, the fewer deaths from viruses.  Maybe that's just me.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: LAman on April 14, 2020, 02:51:59 PM
4701 vs. 731.   Interesting numbers.   The first is the seasonal average for flu deaths in the State of California.   The second number is the actual deaths in California from COVID 19.

I have always felt that the warmer the climate, the fewer deaths from viruses.  Maybe that's just me.

Are you saying that having COVID 19 saved almost 4000 lives? Is it determinable to know how many deaths were from the flu?

I think it is way to early to determine if coronavirus will act like influenza virus and be seasonal or if it will be back next year. As I understand, the coronavirus mutates slower than influenza virus.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 14, 2020, 03:39:18 PM
That would make logical sense, but the 'top of the curve' just seems way too flat IMO.  I am pretty sure any excess testing capacity would be extended to health workers, police and other critical workers.  Is that happening?

That has been happening. First responders and healthcare workers. NY had already listed the number of infected NYPD officers including # of fatalities so far. As well as other places...

But, based on worldometer count today (610,600), and if the % of positive cases from total testing remains at 15%, then 4 million tested is pretty low. Even if you allow for a contingency of 3 (12 million, for re-test, false negative/positive, botched tests, etc..), of testing in the given period, is still relatively 'low'.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: jone on April 14, 2020, 05:25:57 PM
My favorite pasta take-out place closed down yesterday.   Not due to virus concerns, but due to lack of customers.   This place fed the local businesses in the area.  All of which are shut down.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 14, 2020, 06:55:09 PM

Agree.  Testing is the key to reducing the number of infections to low numbers. 

As I wrote earlier in some thread; the idea that testing will solve most of  the problem has a flaw.

Person X tests negative today, but tomorrow he/she would test positive if retested.

Yes, testing does help identify those who test positive on that day; but retesting needed on each following day if everyone is to be identified over time.

Ah . . . for the simpler days of tracking down Typhoid Mary victims.

Or . . . I remember reading 15 or so years ago about tracking a case of STDs.
Door guard at a nightclub in Amsterdam (I think that was the city) gave names of some 20 gals he had sex with in the prior 30 days.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 14, 2020, 08:38:18 PM
They're mostly snowflakes, FT. But since you admitted not belonging to the 'exceptional /resilient' group that the vast majority of true Americans like myself are, we need not worry.

Unlike you, of course.
Still haven't missed a day or minute of work, unlike you huddled up behind your rolls of toilet paper.   You can still call yourself 'exceptional' though, since it makes you feel good about yourself. 

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 14, 2020, 08:39:27 PM
FWIW, where I am. I noticed about a 35-40% rise in rush hour traffic on my way to work this morning. Daily traffic report on the radio also noted the increase.
There was a large increase where I was also, and I've spoke to a few others that have said the same. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on April 14, 2020, 08:52:31 PM
 (http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/wwfeatures/wm/live/1280_640/images/live/p0/89/d0/p089d0gc.jpg)
The Plague Writers Who Predicted Today


 
Quote
14 April 2020   In uncertain – indeed, weird – times like these, as we increase our social isolation to ‘flatten the curve’, literature provides escape, relief, comfort and companionship. Less comfortingly, though, the appeal of pandemic fiction has also increased. Many pandemic titles read like guide books to today’s situation. And many such novels give a realistic chronological progression, from first signs through to the worst times, and the return of ‘normality’. They show us we’ve been through this before. We’ve survived.
http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20200413-what-can-we-learn-from-pandemic-fiction



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 14, 2020, 11:47:39 PM
Are you saying that having COVID 19 saved almost 4000 lives? Is it determinable to know how many deaths were from the flu?

I think it is way to early to determine if coronavirus will act like influenza virus and be seasonal or if it will be back next year. As I understand, the coronavirus mutates slower than influenza virus.

Lockdown and distancing works against flu as well ;)  It is indeed too early, we still do not know much about this bug.  The mutation rate is reported to be slower, that means only that a vaccine may work better and longer.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 16, 2020, 01:21:02 PM
Are you saying that having COVID 19 saved almost 4000 lives? Is it determinable to know how many deaths were from the flu?

The CDC report I posted here not too long ago cited that flu deaths (2018, I believe) were 'estimated' based on modeling.

But then, COVID's death rate is also questionable because of comorbidity e.g. they credit COVID for the death count as long as the dead tested positive for the virus in the absence of any autopsy. I suppose because not only there isn't much time these days under the circumstances, and/or, it apparently may also be related to what the payoff is with Medicare since the majority of deaths are with the elderlies....

Quote
I think it is way to early to determine if coronavirus will act like influenza virus and be seasonal or if it will be back next year. As I understand, the coronavirus mutates slower than influenza virus.

It may well be. But, as mentioned above, very likely won't get a perfect science either. They'll still rely on modeling. IF COVID ever 'becomes' treatable, or a vaccine is created for it, the chances of this getting lumped as part of the seasonal 'flu' in the future is pretty good. We're not exactly getting separate vaccines for H1N1, MERS, SARS, etc...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 16, 2020, 11:44:03 PM

China did something strange again. For over 3 weeks, they haven't reported more than 7 deaths a day. Some days they reported zero deaths. Today they reported 1290 deaths. Could it be them attempting to raise the number of deaths to decrease the number of accusations that they are lying? Their reputation is taking a hit. Fortunately for them, there's quite a few people out there that would never hold them responsible.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 17, 2020, 01:23:16 AM
Time to re-visit Sweden's policy .. much vaunted by those pointing to her and saying ' look' ..it's 'working for them' ..

(http://i.imgur.com/V6UbbY4.png)

Compare with their neighbours - who are imposing stricter measures ..



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 17, 2020, 05:34:50 AM
Time to re-visit Sweden's policy .. much vaunted by those pointing to her and saying ' look' ..it's 'working for them' ..

Compare with their neighbours - who are imposing stricter measures ..

Stark difference from a visual perspective. 

During the US Civil War, the Union's General Grant was called a "butcher" because of his attrition strategy.  However, Lincoln appointed him commander of US armies because Grant won battles albeit at great loss of life.  And after the war the public twice elected Grant President.

In other words, it is premature to decide the Sweden vs. Scandinavian approach. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 17, 2020, 05:58:33 AM
China did something strange again. For over 3 weeks, they haven't reported more than 7 deaths a day. Some days they reported zero deaths. Today they reported 1290 deaths. Could it be them attempting to raise the number of deaths to decrease the number of accusations that they are lying? Their reputation is taking a hit. Fortunately for them, there's quite a few people out there that would never hold them responsible.
If China wants to update their numbers periodically that makes sense to do.  The increase isn't that great a number.   Since they are used to walking around with facemasks and took draconian measures it is possible that they got a handle on the virus earlier than other nations.   I tend to believe their numbers aren't that far out of whack like many others do.    While politically the US wants to blame and demonize China for the virus, many other nations aren't going to be dragged along with us.  We (The US) want to try to force China to bend to our will and will stop at nothing (Aside from actual war), to force them but we have continued to fail.

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 20, 2020, 11:40:28 AM
DIFFERENCES BETWEEN SARS AND COVID-19



The SARS epidemic (Severe Acute Respiratory Snydrome) of 2003  had a much higher CFR (case fatality rate) than COVID-19.  It was brought under control in just 8 months with only 8098 total cases worldwide, and 774 deaths.  Can COVID-19 be brought under control in the same amount of time?
 

Similarities

The SARS virus (SARS-CoV) shares several  similarities with COVID-19.  Both are a coronavirus, and  in fact the initial name given to COVID-19 virus was SARS-CoV-2.  The whole genome of SARS-CoV-2 has a "86% similarity" with SARS-CoV.   The primary transmission pathway for both is deemed to be the same, respiratory droplets.   The host cells in the human receptor are also the same. Also, both emerged in China, and both seem to have originated from bats.
 

Containment Techniques for SARS

SARS eventually spread to 26 countries with majority of cases occurring in five (China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Canada (Toronto).  SARS was effectively "eradicated" by interrupting all human-to-human transmissions.  This involved the following steps:

                     1.  Sydromic surveillance including virtually 100% testing of possible cases. 
                     2.  Prompt isolation of infected persons, mostly in special sections of hospitals ("isolation" is physical separation of infected patients to prevent any contact with uninfected people - complete isolation, not just 6-ft social distancing).
                     3.  Tracing of contacts prior to isolation.
                     4.  Enforced quarantine (more restrictive than US lockdown) of all traceable contacts.  Some quarantined persons were moved from their homes to hotels.  Measures included spot checks by police (Singapore installed video cameras in homes of  all contacts).  Medical observation of close contacts such as family. 
                     5.  For situations where the spread was so great that quarantine of individuals was not feasible, the entire community was quarantined.  The techniques were far more restrictive than US lockdown, e. g.,  police enforcement, mandatory monitoring of body temperature.

In other words the most restrictive mitigation methods now employed by any state in the US would fall short of the measures used in containing SARS.
 

Differences Between the Two Viruses

Although the two viruses share many similarities there are some key differences. 

1.  The originating locales are different.  Wuhan is a large, densely populated metropolitan region.  It is a major transport hub for regional, national and international travel.    Once COVID-19 developed, the opportunity was high for transport to areas around the globe. 

2.  SARS is more symptomatic than COVID-19.  Many  COVID-19 cases exhibit only mild symptoms, and some are asymptomati.  Only about 15-20% require hospitalization, and the percentage will decline as more data is developed for asymptomatic cases.  In contrast, essentially all cases of SARS infections advanced  to severe respiratory problems requiring medical attention if not hospitalization.   

3.  The infectious period is different for the two.  Infected cases of COVID-19 can shed viruses  before becoming symptomatic, and some contagious cases never exhibit symptoms.  In contrast, SARS cases became so ill with respiratory ailments to seek medical attention before the peak period of shedding viruses.

4.  Transmissibility (R0) appears to be higher for COVID-19,  especially as more data are collected or asymptomatic infections. 

5.  The Case Fatality Rate is different.  SARS is maybe 5-50 times more fatal than COVID-19.  This may be seen as  helpful, yet it encourages more spreading and so many more cases that more total deaths worldwide occur. 

6.  Community spread is far more prevalent with COVID-1

These differences suggest that COVID-19 can not be contained the same as done with SARS.  Because the horse is already out of the barn, a SARS containment approach to COVID-19 seemingly will require the testing of a a large portion of the nation's population, maybe a majority.  And there is the issue of whether US citizens would accept the stringent isolation and quarantine enforcement  methods  used to contain SARS. 
   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 20, 2020, 12:24:36 PM
STILL suggesting this all 'kicked off' in Wuhan ? ..... :popcorn:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 20, 2020, 12:49:12 PM
STILL suggesting this all 'kicked off' in Wuhan ? ..... :popcorn:

What a superfluous comment. 

The substance of my post comparing SARS and COVID-19 does not change.   

You can pursue a theory that the epidemic wave originated from a tiny pebble dropping somewhere else, yet you must admit the fact that the virus made its way to Wuhan where it first made the news by overwhelming the medical care system, becoming a pandemic.   

You know what else does not change regardless of your tiny pebble theory?  The fact remains that a SARS solution will not work for COVID-19.   

Moby, you do anything to pick an argument,  caring little about how we get out of this mess.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: jone on April 20, 2020, 12:52:37 PM
In 'Differences between two viruses, paragraph 3 states 'COVID-19 can shed viruses'.   Does that mean that the asymptomatic infected can infect other people?

Nice write-up.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 20, 2020, 01:02:25 PM
the virus made its way to Wuhan where it first made the news by overwhelming the medical care system, becoming a pandemic.   
 

I actually trust China when they said it started in Wuhan except for the part in came from a meat market. Doctors from Wuhan were the first to confirm there is a new virus running loose causing the Wuhan pneumonia. No other doctors in China or the world made a claim like that in December.

China has a history of viruses and bacteria accidently escaping laboratories. China is actually good in stopping the spread of escapees but they didn't have the experience to deal with the pathogen of the century and they refused help from WHO, CDC, America and other nations to help prevent the spread in January.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 20, 2020, 01:08:28 PM
In 'Differences between two viruses, paragraph 3 states 'COVID-19 can shed viruses'.   Does that mean that the asymptomatic infected can infect other people?

Nice write-up.

Indeed a good assessment.  Yes, if I understand correctly 'shedding' means that those without symptoms can infect others.  Also for symptomatic cases before symptoms appear.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 20, 2020, 01:26:44 PM
In 'Differences between two viruses, paragraph 3 states 'COVID-19 can shed viruses'.   Does that mean that the asymptomatic infected can infect other people?


Yes.  "Shedding" is just like a dog shedding hair.  In SARS, only the really sick dogs shed viruses.   In COVID-19,  happy puppies are shedding.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 20, 2020, 01:37:15 PM

GOING OUT ON A LIMB


So a vaccine is one year, two years away, assuming a virus is developed. 

And a SARS-type containment strategy will not work in the immediate future given the stealth nature of asymptomatic carriers requiring essentially everyone be tested. 

So the general mood is to reverse the "lockdown" and return to work in a phased approach.  How long will the phased approach take?  Without the advent of a vaccine, this is asking how long before we achieve "herd immunity?"

To estimate the time required, we first need to make some assumptions.

Assumption No. 1  -  Infection gives us  immunity to future exposures and resulting infections.  If not, even more time is required. 

Assumption No. 2  - We need to incorporate in our calculations  how many people become exposed and minimally infected yet do not display the necessary symptoms to have been tested.    We don't know, but some preliminary  studies suggest that for each confirmed positive test, a number of other people were infected without ever being tested.    For the purpose of this exercise, let us assume these fortunate people outnumber positive cases at a 3::1 ratio.

Assumption No. 3 -  What rate of new  cases per day will not exceed our healthcare system capacity?  Today, the US has 30,000 new cases per day, and it seems the healthcare system can care for that number.  The rate will likely increase as we return to work, yet our healthcare system capacity will improve with new developments, therapies, etc.    Let us assume the healthcare system could accommodate 70,000 new  cases  per day.

Assumption No. 4 - What percentage of the population must obtain immunity to prevent significant outbreaks?   I read that the number is about 90%, meaning a vulnerable person has very few people to catch the disease from.


Using basic arithmetic, a population of 330 million will thus achieve herd immunity immunity in about 3 years. That would be 3 years of millions of sick people.  It is also 3 years of restricted life, starting off with restrictive measures envisioned in Trump's Phase One plan, and gradually going to Phase Two, then Phase Three.

Some will argue that with greatly expanded testing, we can isolate the virus from the majority of the population akin to the SARS approach but on a major scale.  This would require isolation of all persons as they become infected and monitored quarantine of their contacts.   I believe without development of "home tests"  it will take years, and meanwhile we will not have reopened the nation. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 20, 2020, 01:54:09 PM
I went through this exercise to guide my investing decisions just from a health perspective.

There are other, and more complicated factors, such as the trillions of government spending and lending.   

We have talked about whether the recovery will be a V, U, W or L.   The S & P is down only about 13 percent from 1 January.    I believe the market is too optimistic.  Not that we will retest the lows in a W, but it seems to me we should be on a Nike swoosh.  So the market will back off to the Nike curve and then rise slowly.  The tail is higher than the start.   

Timing?  Recoveries usually take 2 1/2 years to reach the starting point.  We probably can do better than that,  but I see no guaranteed approaches anywhere.   



(http://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/KRYAAOSwAaxcTxEe/s-l640.jpg) 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: jone on April 20, 2020, 02:12:32 PM
The 'Swoosh' may already be at the low point.   Investors are awaiting signs that the death/infection rate - or maybe just the hospital rate - has reached its high point.  The market took a 1200 point jump today on just such an assumption. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 20, 2020, 02:17:05 PM
Using basic arithmetic, a population of 330 million will thus achieve herd immunity immunity in about 3 years. That would be 3 years of millions of sick people.  It is also 3 years of restricted life, starting off with restrictive measures envisioned in Trump's Phase One plan, and gradually going to Phase Two, then Phase Three.


There have been bad news of hundreds of those who have been infected was re-infected. It's too early to tell if they were released due to faulty test results, had sleeper viruses that couldn't be detected and later reactivated, or simply the human body doesn't have immunity against SARS-COV-2. Lots of studies going on right now about it.

Below is a study I found on SARS. Significant levels of antibodies to defeat SARS remain present in the body for 2 years and reduction begins. Conclusion was it is possible for somebody to get re-infected from SARS after a few years.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2851497/


So the general mood is to reverse the "lockdown" and return to work in a phased approach.  How long will the phased approach take? 


My governor gave an interview on CNN recently. Although Washington State seems to have things under control, he said schools will remain closed for the rest of the year. I think he's taking a wait and see approach to see if the virus spikes heavily soon or in Winter so kids will do classes online. Also, he said he will begin phase one after the curve goes down but currently the curve has remained flat. Hopefully it will go down soon because our State economy is paying a heavy price to just to keep a curve flat at it's current level which is not enough for my governor to begin a phase 1. It's costing us trillions at the national level to bring the curve down but hopefully it will go way down and stay there.


I believe without development of "home tests"  it will take years, and meanwhile we will not have reopened the nation. 


We can't trust nations and we can't trust the common man to do their part. Home test kits are only as effective as the people who use them. Some parents will have a kid sick with the flu or cold and send them to school anyway to get them out of the house. Even if a person gets off the drugs to become smart enough to use a test kit, it's no good if they test positive and still go out partying and spreading the virus. In Washington State we had a homeless guy escape quarantine and then steal stuff from a convenience store. There's still too many selfish people out there that don't care about the welfare of others. Whatever plan our governments decide is best to limit the spread, they need to include the idiot factor.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 20, 2020, 02:25:30 PM
The 'Swoosh' may already be at the low point.   Investors are awaiting signs that the death/infection rate - or maybe just the hospital rate - has reached its high point.  The market took a 1200 point jump today on just such an assumption.

What if the endemic rate as we return to work is not far below this awaited high point?! 

In Florida, we are below the peaks of two weeks ago (on a 3-day average, which IMO is a better way of examining the trends).  However, I still feel hesitation about socializing.      Certainly not ready for "normal" life. 

I learned that my neighbor a HOF baseball player wonders if he had COVID in March.  Was never tested,  but had a rough recovery.  He had earlier interviewed a player who tested positive not long afterwards. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 20, 2020, 02:37:14 PM
Laser light lab test shows the need to wear mask. 

RWD is safer than talking with a golf buddy.   


http://www.accuweather.com/en/health-wellness/how-does-sars-cov-2-spread-laser-demonstration-shows-how/723608?utm_medium=push&utm_source=pushly&utm_content=511946&utm_campaign=pushly_trial
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on April 20, 2020, 03:12:34 PM
Laser light lab test shows the need to wear mask. 

RWD is safer than talking with a golf buddy.   


http://www.accuweather.com/en/health-wellness/how-does-sars-cov-2-spread-laser-demonstration-shows-how/723608?utm_medium=push&utm_source=pushly&utm_content=511946&utm_campaign=pushly_trial

More fear mongering I'm afraid. Definitely it is highly contagious but, this we already know. 2.75 inches before being shown by the light. The trajectory maybe 12 inches total? As each day goes by the less and less I'm trusting the information being shoved down our proverbial throats
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: LAman on April 20, 2020, 03:19:04 PM

  As each day goes by the less and less I'm trusting the information being shoved down our proverbial throats


Would you rather have a shaft shoved up our proverbial arses? ))
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on April 20, 2020, 03:21:07 PM
Would you rather have a shaft shoved up our proverbial arses? ))

Is there a difference?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: LAman on April 20, 2020, 03:21:58 PM
Is there a difference?

One is going down...the other is going up!!!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on April 20, 2020, 05:56:11 PM
(http://i.redd.it/16v4slxob2t41.png)


(http://cdn.creators.com/589/276699/276699_image.jpg)


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 20, 2020, 08:38:07 PM

We can't trust nations and we can't trust the common man to do their part.
Even today after all that has been happening, I dealt with numerous people who weren't wearing masks, wanted to shake hands, and were a little closer than I would have preferred.  Based on what I've seen I'd suspect this virus has a ways to go before it runs it's course.  That said, when vegas opens whenever that is, I'll be there, and will be curious to see what measures are taken.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 21, 2020, 01:24:11 AM
So, your President closed the borders and wants the USA to open ..?!

Not at all conflicting...


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 21, 2020, 05:37:37 AM
So, your President closed the borders and wants the USA to open ..?!

Not at all conflicting...
Yeah mobers, the wall he was trying to build wasn't just to keep people out...it was to keep us locked in. 

(http://i216.photobucket.com/albums/cc55/zephro98/BgkvP-1542648855-1035-quizzes-to_serve_man_main.jpg)

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 21, 2020, 06:16:25 AM
CHANGES TO MY ASSUMPTIONS CALCULATING HERD IMMUNITY

I just watched CNBC interview of Dr. Scott Gottlieb.  The former FDA commissioner is on top of medical and scientific developments.  He speaks in a measured, careful manner,  yet unlike Dr. Fauci,  he is not shy about using anecdotal data to predict the trajectory of this disease. 

Today, he opined that the US is diagnosing only about 1 out of 10 cases (in NYC maybe a million people have been exposed vs. the 100,000+ with a positive lab test).  That changes my assumption from yesterday that asymptotic cases outnumber positive cases at a 3::1 ratio.   Dr. Gottlieb's observations say it could be 9::1. 

I also assumed the percentage exposure necessary for herd immunity.  Dr. Gottlieb  said he believes the Ro is somewhat above 3.  That would translate to herd  immunity being achieved at a lower percentage than the 90% I assumed yesterday, yet still higher than 67%. 

This new anecdotal info suggests the US can achieve herd immunity in 1 - 1.5 years using back of the envelope math.  This should be calculated using differential equations because some of the variables change over time at a nonlinear rate.  Yet, it is better than the 3 years I estimated yesterday.   

A key assumption is this estimate is "infection gives us  immunity to future exposures."  That has not been proven.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 21, 2020, 07:23:01 AM
Or, since COVID is another strain of coronavirus like SARS, it could well be this strain will just *disappear* like its predecessor.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 21, 2020, 07:44:46 AM
Or, since COVID is another strain of coronavirus like SARS,


SARS-COV-2 is different coronavirus than SARS. SARS-COV-2 has at least 8 strains running around the world I read a few weeks ago. If we build an immunity to one strain, will we have an immunity to other strains? IF SARS-COV-2 mutates a lot like the flu does, then a vaccine will be needed for every major mutation. It's why we need to get this virus out of our bodies before it infects too many people increasing the chances of major mutation and becoming harder to control. Trying for herd immunity may actually help the virus more than us. Experts can't agree which is the best way to attack the virus. Exposing ourselves to achieve herd immunity or hide from the virus. Here is a 2017 article explaining why we don't ever develop immunity to the common cold coronaviruses.

http://www.technologynetworks.com/immunology/news/why-dont-we-ever-develop-immunity-against-the-common-cold-294551


it could well be this strain will just *disappear* like its predecessor.


WHO already said this virus isn't SARS so there is no relation except in name. This new virus behaves much differently. SARS didn't disappear on its own. It was beaten back by vigorous action before spreading around the world like SARS-COV-2 is doing. SARS was easily beat because it was quick and easy to identify those who were ill and remove them from the population.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 21, 2020, 07:54:09 AM
IF SARS-COV-2 mutates a lot like the flu does, then a vaccine will be needed for every major mutation. It's why we need to get this virus out of our bodies before it infects too many people increasing the chances of major mutation and becoming harder to control.

BillyB-

There never was any vaccine for SARS. Dr. Fauci, when asked about it, simply said there never was any vaccine because SARS just *disappeared*.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 21, 2020, 08:07:43 AM
BillyB-

There never was any vaccine for SARS. Dr. Fauci, when asked about it, simply said there never was any vaccine because SARS just *disappeared*.

I watched Dr. Fauci say that. He didn't lie but he also didn't tell the whole story. There has never been a vaccine created for any coronavirus in history. Not for SARS, not for MERS, and not even for the harmless coronaviruses that cause the common cold. SARS disappeared only because of human intervention. China probably thought the same level of human intervention would get rid of the pathogen of the century. They were wrong. Dr. Fauci can't tell the whole truth because the truth hurts and may cause panic. There are experts that say Dr. Fauci's prediction we may have a vaccine in 18 months was overly optimistic. I listen to Dr. Fauci but I also know he wants to create hope to prevent depression and he is careful not to create panic.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: LAman on April 21, 2020, 03:36:44 PM
SARS-COV-2 is different coronavirus than SARS. SARS-COV-2 has at least 8 strains running around the world I read a few weeks ago. If we build an immunity to one strain, will we have an immunity to other strains? IF SARS-COV-2 mutates a lot like the flu does, then a vaccine will be needed for every major mutation. It's why we need to get this virus out of our bodies before it infects too many people increasing the chances of major mutation and becoming harder to control. Trying for herd immunity may actually help the virus more than us. Experts can't agree which is the best way to attack the virus. Exposing ourselves to achieve herd immunity or hide from the virus. Here is a 2017 article explaining why we don't ever develop immunity to the common cold coronaviruses.

http://www.technologynetworks.com/immunology/news/why-dont-we-ever-develop-immunity-against-the-common-cold-294551



BillyB, do some research before posting here. Don't go by your 'stories' you read on the  internet. Please refrain from your 'IF' situations
Yes, there are at least 8 strains of SARS CoV 2 but they mutate slowly( maybe twice a month), much different than flu which mutates ~~twice as fast. Because of slow mutation SARS CoV 2 strains are fundamentally similar so they do not  enhance viral virulence.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 21, 2020, 06:19:35 PM
Yes, there are at least 8 strains of SARS CoV 2 but they mutate slowly( maybe twice a month), much different than flu which mutates


There are 8 strains of SARS COV-2 out in a matter of months and that is fast. New strains are not considered a major mutation. It's possible our immunity system and one vaccine can handle all 8 strains but if SAR COV-2 goes under a major mutation, a new vaccine will be needed to for the mutated virus and our immunity system will definitely be inneffective.

Don't go by your 'stories' you read on the  internet.


I'll just "wing it" next time like you do. Lol
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 22, 2020, 10:31:58 AM
WILL THE SUMMER SEASON REDUCE NUMBER OF INFECTIONS?


An epidemiologist associated with Harvard has analyzed whether the pace of COVID-19 infections could be seasonal.

http://ccdd.hsph.harvard.edu/will-covid-19-go-away-on-its-own-in-warmer-weather/

He named three factors affected by the season:

1.  The environment  - Some viruses survive best in dry, cold air.  Droplets from coughing and sneezing travel farther. 

2.  Human behavior - People socialize differently in summer than winter.

3.  Human immunity  - The human immune system is weaker in cold months).and the dynamics of disease more generally (an epidemic that begins in one season tends to end in another).

4.  History - viruses with a long history such as flu do exhibit seasonality, yet new viruses tend not to because the whole population is susceptible at the start


He concluded that that COVID-19  "...may transmit somewhat more efficiently in winter than summer...The size of the change is expected to be modest, and not enough to stop transmission on its own."

I look in Florida and notice that the warmest region (Miami)  has a much higher proportion of reported infections. 


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 22, 2020, 10:54:08 AM
WILL THE SUMMER SEASON REDUCE NUMBER OF INFECTIONS?



I look in Florida and notice that the warmest region (Miami)  has a much higher proportion of reported infections.

Maybe time to look into an Igloo in northern Alaska ??
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 22, 2020, 11:06:22 AM
May be related to sunlight killing the virus left on outside surfaces.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: jone on April 22, 2020, 12:08:50 PM
May be related to sunlight killing the virus left on outside surfaces.

I favor the notion that sneezed or coughed antigens are more rapidly evaporating in the warm air making it more difficult for the disease to transfer.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 22, 2020, 01:01:02 PM
May be related to sunlight killing the virus left on outside surfaces.

A friend picked up my golf club, formerly a friendly gesture but now a "no-no."  So I put the club in timeout, basking in the sunlight, letting UV rays destroy the virus as well as my exposed skin.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 22, 2020, 01:05:53 PM
I favor the notion that sneezed or coughed antigens are more rapidly evaporating in the warm air making it more difficult for the disease to transfer.

Evaporation results from the movement of unsaturated air.  Its plenty warm in Florida, yet in Florida the relative humidity approaches 100%, so sweat stays on the skin (as do droplets).  You live in California where sweat evaporates, which is cooling.  :D
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: jone on April 22, 2020, 01:18:40 PM
Evaporation results from the movement of unsaturated air.  Its plenty warm in Florida, yet in Florida the relative humidity approaches 100%, so sweat stays on the skin (as do droplets).  You live in California where sweat evaporates, which is cooling.  :D

Bunch of sweaty bohunks live in Florida.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 22, 2020, 01:58:22 PM
A friend picked up my golf club, formerly a friendly gesture but now a "no-no." 

Why did you throw your golf club down ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 22, 2020, 03:30:44 PM
Why did you throw your golf club down ?

 :D

I don't throw.  I admit sometimes struggling to control the impulse. 

Humbling sport, and I can not blame my mistakes on others.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 22, 2020, 03:45:52 PM
AND NOW BLOOD CLOTTING DEATHS

As if this disease was not bad enough with the severe respiratory complications, reports are being published that blood clotting problems to the degree of “hemostatic derangement" are killing a significant number of  COVID-19 patients. 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/22/coronavirus-blood-clots/?cv-campaign=4fda08e2fbca0387b958bb44bf5cc2b6&utm_campaign=wp_to_your_health&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_tyh

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 22, 2020, 09:34:10 PM

Back in January when I was trying to learn about this new coronavirus and before it was named SARS-COV2, I looked up a couple other coronaviruses to get an idea on what to expect and found this article on SARS.

As Zhang interviewed and took pictures of more than 50 SARS survivors, mostly from Beijing, a horrific tale of their "lucky" escape began to emerge.

"They were decaying physically and falling apart mentally," she says.

Zhang discovered that more than 360 people were living with the devastating after-effects of SARS. The steroids used in their treatment had left them with permanent damage to their bones and lungs.

"They couldn't walk or breathe properly," Zhang says.

They were unable to take care of themselves, and some were forced to go in for joint replacements.


http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2011-03/28/content_12234394.htm

The more we allow people to get infected, the more people we will have that needs expensive short term or long term care. Even if we find a cure, our economy will take a hit long after.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 23, 2020, 02:58:14 PM
I favor the notion that sneezed or coughed antigens are more rapidly evaporating in the warm air making it more difficult for the disease to transfer.

According to today's press briefing...experts agree that this virus actually survive better in warm, dry air climate like So. California, than the warm, high humidity air like Florida's.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 24, 2020, 02:44:25 AM
Boy, these daily briefings are getting pretty dangerous with all the unproven anecdotal information that is being basted out in desperation.

Maybe I'll start huffing window cleaner and see if that works.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 24, 2020, 06:56:57 AM
Boy, these daily briefings are getting pretty dangerous with all the unproven anecdotal information that is being basted out in desperation.

Maybe I'll start huffing window cleaner and see if that works.

Indeed, the disinfectant remedy is bizarre.  I missed that hearing that part, yet from what others have said, it was regrettable.  Give Trump credit -  he stopped short of a personal demonstration.   ;D

The humidity and UV factors were discussed here.  Does it matter that our number of viewers may be less than CNN-Fox-et al?

Here's a new one.  Viagra, not as a preventative, but after the respiratory system is stressed. 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 24, 2020, 07:02:32 AM
Here's a new one.  Viagra, not as a preventative, but after the respiratory system is stressed.

Gator,

If I 'go', it's gonna be with a stiffie so yeah if that's what it takes I'm all for it.

This entire presidency has been bizarre and getting more so by the day... but I'll add a disclaimer:  Please don't follow my suggestion above and huff Windex or any other household cleaner for that matter... It'll kill you.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 24, 2020, 07:20:57 AM

If I 'go', it's gonna be with a stiffie so yeah if that's what it takes I'm all for it.


There's a joke there somewhere, such as not being able to close your casket. 

Not sure at the end your libido will be raging.   :D
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 24, 2020, 07:31:46 AM
According to today's press briefing...experts agree that this virus actually survive better in warm, dry air climate like So. California, than the warm, high humidity air like Florida's.

I read that too, and it was observed for  air droplets as well as virus resting on surfaces. 

Quote
   On nonporous surfaces such as stainless steel, the new coronavirus takes 18 hours to lose half its strength in a dark, low-humidity environment, Bryan said.

In a high-humidity environment, that half-life dropped to six hours, and when the virus was exposed to high humidity and sunlight, the half-life dropped to two minutes, he said.

Researchers found a similar effect with the coronavirus that was suspended in the air - simulating the coughing or sneezing that often spreads the disease. In a dark room, the virus maintained half its strength for an hour.

But when exposed to sunlight, it lost half its strength in 90 seconds, Bryan said.

I understand the destruction by UV rays min sunlight.

How is humidity a factor?   I can only guess as to the explanation.  Some biological, chemical, and/or physical action is breaking down the lipid shell of the virus, and it is more active in humid air.  For example, bacterial decomposition is higher in humid than dry conditions, explaining why the mummies in Egypt have survived 3,000 years. 

This summer in Florida while under attack by mold and mildew fungi, and facing heat exhaustion on the golf course, I can thank my lucky stars.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 24, 2020, 07:37:09 AM
Gator,

If I 'go', it's gonna be with a stiffie so yeah if that's what it takes I'm all for it.


Garp's father ??
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 24, 2020, 07:39:33 AM
Indeed, the disinfectant remedy is bizarre.  I missed that hearing that part, yet from what others have said, it was regrettable.  Give Trump credit -  he stopped short of a personal demonstration.   ;D


Trump is running out of things to give people hope. Now got to be creative.


The humidity and UV factors were discussed here. 


More hope. Singapore, a city-state of 5.6 million is currently experiencing an outbreak with 1000 people getting infected each day. They are experiencing 88 degree Fahrenheit or 33 degree Celsius with 88% humidity weather lately. Last month WHO said it's false hope the virus will go away during warmer months. Summer may help slow the virus down but it still spreading fast enough to create outbreaks as Singapore is learning.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 24, 2020, 07:55:16 AM
Gator,

I can imagine that the combination of sunlight, heat and humidity can kill the virus.  After all, humidity unless at very high temperature is mostly tiny growing droplets of water and water droplets can work like a magnifying glass to the more tiny virus inside.   Combination of UV light, heat and water maybe works faster than any alone.

Virus obviously thrives high humidity and liquid environment like lungs, missing the light part.  Guess good conditions to strip its shell and inject into more fertile cells.

Some say smokers are worse off, others say better off but that be demographic with most smokers 'gone' within the most vulnerable age groups.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 24, 2020, 07:59:43 AM
Garp's father ??

LOL that's the idea.. gonna go have a quick chat with the wife and get all this in my will...   It will start sorta like a mission impossible movie with the tape machine that burns up after playing one time...

'Should you accept this mission and succeed....'
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 24, 2020, 08:29:57 AM
I heard this on the news last night, and then saw this NYT article (http://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/world/europe/italy-coronavirus-home-isolation.html) about the same thing. Maybe another deposit to the evolving notion that there are in fact far more infected folks then the symptomatic lot.

In Italy, apparently if the report is correct, are bracing at the prospect the whole 'stay-at-home' mandate is a 'ticking-time-bomb' waiting to explode.

Gives new meaning to the phrase, "it's safe(fer) to come out of the house now".
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 24, 2020, 09:05:09 AM
I heard this on the news last night, and then saw this NYT article (http://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/world/europe/italy-coronavirus-home-isolation.html) about the same thing. Maybe another deposit to the evolving notion that there are in fact far more infected folks then the symptomatic lot.

In Italy, apparently if the report is correct, are bracing at the prospect the whole 'stay-at-home' mandate is a 'ticking-time-bomb' waiting to explode.

Gives new meaning to the phrase, "it's safe to come out of the house now".

Reminds me of Chris Cuomo getting infected a month ago and stayed at home. His wife and two of his kids got infected. If anybody has an infected person at home, that person needs to be isolated in a room and the vent to the room needs to be closed if there is one. Like what was shown in a recent restaurant simulation, air circulating in the home can spread the virus too.

UV sterilization lamps like the one in the link may kill viruses in the home and car. If used in a room with a sick person, do not place it where the light gets to their eyes or skin. UV grow lights do not kill bacteria or viruses since they are on a different wavelength.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/UV-Disinfection-Lamp-Sterilization-Germicidal-Light-USB/174223186688?hash=item289082db00:g:Q~kAAOSwnTBeWm~N
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 24, 2020, 11:33:26 AM
Boy, these daily briefings are getting pretty dangerous with all the unproven anecdotal information that is being basted out in desperation.

Trump today dismissed the "injection of disinfectant" as sarcasm directed at a "fake news" reporter.  Not even Fox was buying that.

Personally I believe Trump may be working too much.  He has 10X the acumen of Biden, yet these days Trump is working 'around the clock' on many fronts besides public health.  He has meeting after meeting with complex presentations and data  on subjects such as global oil production, Iranian missile tests, national debt, China trade, stock market, the election campaign, North Korea, immigration......

He needs to let others speak more yet still keep his role of synthesizing all.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on April 24, 2020, 03:27:13 PM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/gv042220dAPR20200422104514.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 24, 2020, 10:59:41 PM
Trump today dismissed the "injection of disinfectant" as sarcasm directed at a "fake news" reporter.  Not even Fox was buying that.

Personally I believe Trump may be working too much.

Meanwhile some of us saw the signs of derangement, much earlier .. before he even 'won' ...

  He has meeting after meeting with complex presentations and data  on subjects such as global oil production, Iranian missile tests, national debt, China trade, stock market, the election campaign, North Korea, immigration......

Ah yes, like he has a track record of 'success' on any of those subjects .. managing to alienate ALLIES on Iran and if it wasn't for the virus, he'd have the spotlight shining on him re kicking off a dumb trade war and tipping us ( that's the world )  into recession ..

He needs to be eased aside and someone with a clue take over...   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 25, 2020, 04:44:59 AM
....and if it wasn't for the virus, he'd have the spotlight shining on him re kicking off a dub trade war and tipping us ( that's the world )  into recession ..

Complete nonsense, and nothing to do with the topic. 


 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 25, 2020, 08:24:59 AM
Complete nonsense, and nothing to do with the topic.

Considering your 'leader' is constantly tweeting and spouting bollox ...you'll forgive my wry smile..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 25, 2020, 01:19:51 PM
Considering your 'leader' is constantly tweeting and spouting bollox ...you'll forgive my wry smile..

Do you realize you exhibit many of Trump's flaws?    In other words:  POT....KETTLE....BLACK.


The one difference is that you end up opposite of him on the policy spectrum.     


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on April 25, 2020, 01:24:30 PM
Some may find the following links interesting. 

http://www.elilabs.com/corona_by_state.html
"you will find graphs from raw data showing number of new cases each day for the past 60 days, for the entire US, and for each of the states therein. The raw data file also contains by county data, but the graphs do not go to that depth of detail.

I plotted these originally a week ago because I wasn't seeing the data the way I wanted to see it. From these graphs, as noisy as the data is, one can usually see whether a given state has passed the peak in the infection. The noisyness is really bad. It appears that a case is attributed to the day its test results are received, not to the day the sample was taken, nor to the day symptoms first appeared. It looks like the delay between sample and results is prety variable. Maybe they ran out of a reagent at a certain lab; maybe a weekend intervened and th lab didn't work on weekends. I don't know, but its pretty messy."
Quote from link's author

http://rt.live/
 link to the excellent graphical study by the founders of instagram.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 26, 2020, 12:02:17 AM
Do you realize you exhibit many of Trump's flaws?    In other words:  POT....KETTLE....BLACK.

'Sure', I'm a repeatedly failed businessman, a misogynist and have to have real experts telling the public what I really meant ;)

The one difference is that you end up opposite of him on the policy spectrum.   

IF you mean, I 'get' that man-kind is screwing up the planet, believe in social healthcare within a entrepreneurial based economy and find patriotism rather silly ... You're right ! ;)

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 26, 2020, 01:35:40 PM
'Sure'...

To elaborate, your posts are in the same vein as Trump's tweets:  attack, attack, attack, often misspeaking the facts.     

There are differences:  Trump boasts, Trump develops.  Not you as that would smack of optimism.   

There's more. 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 26, 2020, 11:38:34 PM
To elaborate, your posts are in the same vein as Trump's tweets:  attack, attack, attack, often misspeaking the facts.     

There are differences:  Trump boasts, Trump develops.  Not you as that would smack of optimism.   

There's more

Good morning, Gator !

MY posts are most unlike 'Trampu's' as I don't have a team of advisors then ignore 'em .. I challenge your blind faith and optimism in the serial screw-up's foreign and trade policies and his clear lack of leadership.

That you continue to rely on repeating bollox about my alleged lack of veracity, with no facts to back it up,  when your / your 'leader' gets busted for stupid claims amuses  ..

I'm only sorry this virus came along to save 'Trampu' from his certain, fall as the economy went into reverse and watch to see who he'd blame.. 


At least now, more of us see the character of the man, his petulance ( when oft busted ) and total unsuitability to represent your great nation ... The magic 'woofle dust' is wearing off and the Emperor really wasn't wearing any clothes ..


Perhaps my being right all along irks you ? ;)



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 27, 2020, 07:38:46 AM

MY posts....

I must have hit a nerve, because this post is different.  Unlike your usual postings, you took time to compose and spell. 


Quote
Perhaps my being right all along irks you ? ;) 

Your constant self-denial reminds me of Jameis Winston.  He would throw long TDs, yet lose a game because of pick 6s, and then have the gall to claim to reporters, "I was ballin' today." 

The former No. 1 overall draft pick and still young Jameis was released and has yet to find a team willing to take him as their backup QB. 

Differences between you and Jameis - he threw many TDs, mostly because he had great receivers.     

So, yes, I agree with FP above.  Such as, Trump's trade negotiations with China were not pushing the global economy into recession.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 27, 2020, 07:47:27 AM
So, yes, I agree with FP above.  Such as, Trump's trade negotiations with China were not pushing the global economy into recession.   

Supply and demand.  US tariffs made many things from China a bit cheaper here, at least in relative terms, maybe more.

I used to buy a new Apple laptop or iMac on my trips to the USA or other apple goodies.  Nowadays I just buy it here as the prices are essentially the same when deducting sales tax and posting as business expense.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 27, 2020, 08:38:42 AM
Trump today dismissed the "injection of disinfectant" as sarcasm directed at a "fake news" reporter.  Not even Fox was buying that.

Personally I believe Trump may be working too much.  He has 10X the acumen of Biden, yet these days Trump is working 'around the clock' on many fronts besides public health.  He has meeting after meeting with complex presentations and data  on subjects such as global oil production, Iranian missile tests, national debt, China trade, stock market, the election campaign, North Korea, immigration...…

He needs to let others speak more yet still keep his role of synthesizing all.     

I do too!

Despite his occasional 'faux pas' (sorry, FP), which are no more than the last stooge we had, Trump had this nation at a prosperous point never achieved by any POTUS before him - and that's doing it in less than the 4 years of his first term!!!

He took on so many fronts Obama can only dream about..trashed TPP/Nafta/ISIL/etc...unprecedentedly improved minority employment numbers all in the same period!

He never have, or will never, sell this country out like Obama/Biden did.

Keep America Great!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on April 27, 2020, 08:46:28 AM
I do too!

Despite his occasional 'faux pas' (sorry, FP), which are no more than the last stooge we had, Trump had this nation at a prosperous point never achieved by any POTUS before him - and that's doing it in less than the 4 years of his first term!!!

He took on so many fronts Obama can only dream about..trashed TPP/Nafta/ISIL/etc...unprecedentedly improved minority employment numbers all in the same period!

He never have, or will never, sell this country out like Obama/Biden did.

Keep America Great!

You should've added (IMO) that he is/was all of that and more as an unpaid President and as a career businessman, not a politican
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 27, 2020, 09:04:19 AM
You should've added (IMO) that he is/was all of that and more as an unpaid President and as a career businessman, not a politican

You're right but that fact is the just the icing on a cake. Besides, consider the recipients. A liberal ex-pat who hardly have any in-ground experience of events in-country other than what it ingests from CNN/MSNBC feed, and, well...the other usual suspect is simply a troll.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 27, 2020, 09:37:52 AM
Supply and demand.  US tariffs made many things from China a bit cheaper here, at least in relative terms, maybe more.

I used to buy a new Apple laptop or iMac on my trips to the USA or other apple goodies.  Nowadays I just buy it here as the prices are essentially the same when deducting sales tax and posting as business expense.

That's awesome! Then you have another good reason to be a Trump fan! He just made your life so much easier without even you noticing it! Even blokes like you unintendedly benefit from our Pres's business acumen.

Under Obama, the stooge had you having to come to the US just to get it 'cheaper'. What a waste, eh?

Although I question how many Apple Laptops or iMac do you 'buy' to actually reap the 'benefit' of buying it where you are? Or is that just a stretch on your part to make a blind point, e.g. payday loans?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 27, 2020, 10:42:18 PM
Now we have GQB and Mr Mistake fawning over 'Trampu's' 'business acumen' ? ..

Gosh, I wish I could stiff creditors and banks for millions and millions ( SIX times )  and still be so addressed ...?

Reading their ramblings about his 'successes' one has to wonder what sort of 'filters' some US voters possess..


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on April 28, 2020, 12:45:53 AM
Not quite GQ, pricing has levelled over the years.  Last couple years pretty much the same except that here sales tax is already added to the price which gets reimbursed.

I'm looking at three imac's, two 27 inch I use in a dual monitor work setup and a macbook to watch news right now in my home office.  Another mac on a desk nearby for the help.  One macbook in the travel bag, an ipad in the car, another that I use around the house.  Wife has a mac, daughter has one, son has one and we pretty much everyone has an iphone and ipad. Throw in a couple of watches on top and a few routers and access points around the house and garden.  If that's a stretch in your dictionary quite ok.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 28, 2020, 08:19:41 AM
Not quite GQ, pricing has levelled over the years.  Last couple years pretty much the same except that here sales tax is already added to the price which gets reimbursed.

I'm looking at three imac's, two 27 inch I use in a dual monitor work setup and a macbook to watch news right now in my home office.  Another mac on a desk nearby for the help.  One macbook in the travel bag, an ipad in the car, another that I use around the house.  Wife has a mac, daughter has one, son has one and we pretty much everyone has an iphone and ipad. Throw in a couple of watches on top and a few routers and access points around the house and garden.  If that's a stretch in your dictionary quite ok.

Actually no. I can see it. Me, personally, I no longer bother with such clutter. That's behind me these days, you know. That's why you have happy helpers. Something about *no longer what you do, but what you know* talk, no?

My office basically have a desk, lounge room with a couch and two chairs against a nice backdrop view from floor to ceiling windows w/ automated blinds. There's a door that leads to a semi-conference room with the big table to make me feel important - plus a 60" 4K LED UHD monitor,,,and the silly little squawk box to yell at people when I'm in the mood..

I guess this keeps me from getting payday loans, man. :devil: But I'm happy to see you're still hard at it!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 28, 2020, 01:50:32 PM
As I have posted before . . . bankruptcies and reorganizations are common place in real estate developments.

One study indicated the typical shopping mall development goes through 2 bankruptcies before the third owners/developers finally made a go of it.

I have been lucky in my small R.E development activities because I have never used any borrowed money.

With use of debt, you might be able to magnify your gains to equity share . . . but the potential for loss of everything is much greater also.

- - - - - - -

As side note:  Most people are very mistaken about the risk/return tradeoff.

Common misconception is:  High returns follow from taking high risk.  Not true.

Real situation:  If you earn high returns, then you probably have incurred high risk, knowingly or not.

On the other hand:  If you do knowingly enter a high risk venture . . . you might achieve high returns, normal returns or negative returns.  Negative returns are just as likely as high returns . . . that's why it's called high risk.

And:  If you enter into low risk ventures, you will likely earn low returns and maybe even negative returns, and a very small chance that you might get high returns.

This misconception regarding risk/return is held by many USA folks . . . but is almost universally held by FSU folks.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 28, 2020, 02:14:43 PM
BTW, IIRC, a very famous POTUS, whose face appear in our currency, once personally declared bankruptcy, an act which Trump never did. As a result, his horse was carted away to help pay for some of his debt.

":::that's actually good trivia: "Who am I?::"

Walt Disney also once filed for BK. LMAO.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on April 30, 2020, 12:38:45 PM
The Russian (ex?) PM has it ...

http://meduza.io/en/feature/2020/04/30/covid-19-installs-a-new-acting-prime-minister-in-russia

VVP has already seemingly replaced Prime Minister Mikhail Mishustin ...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 02, 2020, 03:22:36 PM
Speaking of nations

The UK stats are broken down into England, Scotland, Wales and .... N.Ireland

http://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/#countries (http://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/#countries)

0.045 percent of population died of virus in England

0.03 percent of population died of virus in Wales

0.0218 percent of population died of virus in Scotland

0.019 percent of population died of virus in N.Ireland

                      0.0669 percent of the population in Belgium
                      0.0536 percent died of virus in Spain
Comparison : 0.0446 percent died of virus in Italy
                      0.0379 percent died in France
                      0.0291 NL
                      0.027 in Sweden
                      0.0196 percent  died of virus in USA
                      0.009 percent in Canada
                      0.0082 Denmark
                      0.008 in Germany
                      0.00397 Finland
                      0.00389 Norway
                      0.0008 in Russia
                      0.00037 percent in 'Oz
                      0.0004 in N.Zealand

So, England is third only to Belgium and Spain ... 

Russia ten times less than Germany ? .. 


Sorry, if your nation isn't included ...       

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52491210   

Coronavirus: Why so many people are dying in Belgium         
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on May 02, 2020, 06:54:45 PM
As has been stated here before . . . those are the numbers reported by the various nations.
Two caveats:
1) Different reporting criteria.  e.g. some report Corona when something else might have been present.  Some don't report Corona, if another problem at same time.
2) Outright lying.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 03, 2020, 01:07:29 AM
Good morning, ML

Well, I enjoyed pulling the 'data' into a spreadsheet, anyway ((

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 03, 2020, 05:13:00 AM
As has been stated here before . . . those are the numbers reported by the various nations.
Two caveats:
1) Different reporting criteria.  e.g. some report Corona when something else might have been present.  Some don't report Corona, if another problem at same time.
2) Outright lying.

For example, the lower percentage for Ireland  results from the fact that over 50% of the population has been prophylactically 'pickled' in Guinness, scientifically known to promote a healthy heart and possibly a bane to to the spikes on coronaviruses.      ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 03, 2020, 06:41:19 AM
Not at 9 USD / pint, they aren't )
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 03, 2020, 06:59:04 AM
Not at 9 USD / pint, they aren't )

vs. $2 per 14.9 oz can in the US

http://tinyurl.com/y7yjk4ve

Does Guinness increase in value upon leaving Ireland?    ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D  If so that would be "dumping' and in violation of the WTO. 

I understand the price for a pint in Ireland is after pouring from kegs, a process that seemingly takes an hour or so.   ;) 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on May 04, 2020, 04:58:56 AM
US real reasoning why the virus started in China.

US workforce in year 2000 157 million.   US workforce currently 127 million

US manufacturing jobs in 2000  17 million  US manufacturing jobs currently 10.8 million

US debt 25 trillion and climbing. 


We have really outdone ourselves this time! China is kicking our tails, so whatever we can try to knock them down a peg, without having to actually work ourselves through it.  US patriots condemn socialism and others that use safety nets, yet are all too willing to pick up their little 600+ dollar weekly trump unemployment checks.   

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 04, 2020, 08:12:18 AM
GOOD NEWS

The mathematical term R0*, or reproduction rate, is an important variable in defining the potential for a contagious disease to spread.   If R0 is below one, the epidemic eventually declines to an insignificant  level. 

R0 is not constant.  It is suppressed by mitigation measures.  Hence its value varies over time, maximizing with the start of an outbreak, and declining with mitigation measures.  The values reported for COVID-19 R0 are an average over time.  Hence, the value for the current time is a better predictor, and this is referred to as Rt.

      -  30 states have an Rt below 0.9, and this is considered "good." 
      -  19 states plus DC have an Rt between 0.9-1.01, and this is considered "stable."
      -  Only one state has an Rt above 1.01 (WY just below 1.1), and this is considered "bad"

These can be seen in the following dashboard by clicking on Rt.  This dashboard is rich with comparative data, such as comparing number of tests with number of cases.

http://tinyurl.com/y87nh9am


KEY POLICY QUESTIONS

Michigan with perhaps the most stringent mitigation measures has the lowest Rt (approaching 0.7).   Was the suppression of the disease worth the suppression of the economy?   

Many states are now implementing the first phase of the White House Guidelines of reopening America,"  these Rt will increase.  Will this necessitate the having to renew the stringent mitigation measures? 


______________________
*  R0 is defined as the average number of people who will contract a contagious disease from a single infected person, in a population previously free of infection (and haven’t been vaccinated). 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 04, 2020, 08:26:59 AM
Gator,

Let's keep in mind that Rt is a result, whether something or nothing done in the past.

Obviously states arrived at their current Rt values by maintaining some form of mitigation. Once mitigation changes, so does Rt even though you won't notice it till some time down the road.

Furthermore, methods to arrive at some R0 value are not comparative.  IOW would not necessarily apply to other places or populations.

This is why the 'official' guidelines look for a steady decrease and not some stable Rt or other value.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 04, 2020, 08:53:45 AM
Michigan with perhaps the most stringent mitigation measures has the lowest Rt (approaching 0.7).   Was the suppression of the disease worth the suppression of the economy?   


They were about to become the next NY. They had to act fast. Better they overreact than react too slow.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 04, 2020, 09:30:31 AM


Furthermore, methods to arrive at some R0 value are not comparative. 


Maybe not comparative with what China or Italy reported, yet consistent methods were used for each state in the dashboard I referenced.  The calculation methods are the same, and the data used in the calculations supposedly are comparable (e. g., number of reported infections, incubation period). 

What differs among the states are:

         1) opportunities for exposure (population density, transportation mode, etc.
         2) after infection the degree of contact tracing, testing and quarantining of contacts 
         3) lockdown protocols   

Yes, each state differs regarding the above.   New York is skewed by NYC, which in the early dates of the outbreak had a higher R0 because  its circumstances created higher opportunity for exposure than a county in the farmbelt.


However, that is  not the point.  New York is comparative with New York, and New York's Rt has declined from 1.55 on March 9 to 0.82  today.     


Quote
This is why the 'official' guidelines look for a steady decrease and not some stable Rt or other value.

Correct.  The dashboard's  Rt values are a leading indicator of the degree of decrease in new cases.  We are concerned with the absolute value of Rt, not the stability of its values.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 04, 2020, 09:47:06 AM
Related to the above,  the US CDC has revised the estimated Ro for the disease.  It is now believed to have been 5.7 vs. the prior estimate of 2.2 -2.7 based on a scientific analysis of early Wuhan data prior to January 23 for domestic travel and reported infections.

What is the significance?  The prior estimates suggested a doubling time of 6-7 days vs. the revised estimate of  2.3 - 3.3 days if no intervention.     

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/7/20-0282_article
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 04, 2020, 10:16:33 AM
Wow Gator, that is a very significant change.

Regarding progress of any state or country, a 14 day decline means that efforts are being made to not just stay at status quo, but with quite some 'force' to drive the count down.  This implies also a certain 'momentum' that carries on after some restrictions are lifted.

I still maintain that a 'plateau' is not the time to drop the level of mitigation.  A plateau in new cases and large percentage of infected vs tests taken is a sign maybe not enough testing is being done.  A steady decline in new cases maintaining testing level or even increasing the number and breadth of testing is indicative of really beating the virus at its game.

New York state for example seems to be doing a good job beating the beast down, but still has a way to go with still around 4k infections detected per day - far to many to track and trace and well over twice that in Italy now which is falling rapidly (1200 today).

(http://i.postimg.cc/zXNkMX2H/Screen-Shot-2020-05-04-at-19-08-35.png)

Texas should definitely not be loosening mitigation now and in fact should be tightening them.

(http://i.postimg.cc/1z5QmQWv/Screen-Shot-2020-05-04-at-19-09-19.png)

Unfortunately, it seems the opposite is happening with NY waiting and TX opening up...

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on May 04, 2020, 12:17:09 PM
As I have posted before . . . bankruptcies and reorganizations are common place in real estate developments.

That point has been made to Moby at least 20 times by me personally.

He just dusts off that line and posts it again and again and again and
again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and
again and again and

He only has about 25 arguments all of which have been refuted
so he just recycles them.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 04, 2020, 12:20:47 PM

I still maintain that a 'plateau' is not the time to drop the level of mitigation. 

Overall, yes.  However, exceptions may exist within a state that is plateauing because data are skewed by large outbreaks (e. g., NYC, Miami, and New Orleans)     


Quote
New York state for example seems to be doing a good job beating the beast down, but still has a way to go with still around 4k infections detected per day - far to many to track and trace and well over twice that in Italy now which is falling rapidly (1200 today).

Partially agree.   Depends upon the capability of the state to perform the contact tracing.  The objective is to keep infections from overwhelming the healthcare system.  Key to that is contact tracing of new cases and quarantining of contacts.  To box in the disease, contacts of contacts must be quarantined and we don't have that capability. 

Upstate New York differs remarkably from NYC.  There may be large regions where some reopening could take place.  Florida is partially reopening everywhere except for the Miami area.   Florida still allows counties and cities to require more mitigation than required by the state.

Quote
Texas should definitely not be loosening mitigation now and in fact should be tightening them

On a 3-day averaging, Texas had exhibited some decline, yet that seems to have started to increase again.  Perhaps some parts of Texas are ready for reopening. 

Successful reopening will require compliance by individuals with social distancing, face masks, hand washing, etc.  Many Americans, especially so in Texas, have a libertarian spirit, and compliance is not a driving factor.  I went  to the post office today.  People spaced themselves, yet out of 10-12 in line, three  were not wearing masks.  Pardon my racial assumptions,  they likely were Democrat voters.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 04, 2020, 01:55:29 PM
That point has been made to Moby at least 20 times by me personally.

He just dusts off that line and posts it again and again and again and
again and again and again and again and again and again and again
and again and again and again and again and again and again and
again and again and

He only has about 25 arguments all of which have been refuted
so he just recycles them.

You seem to be somewhat confused,Beel

Some folks mention 'business acumen' and 'Trampu' in the same sentence .. so, naturally, having to 'come to an agreement with creditors' to the tune of BILLIONS of dollars is a stand ou clue as to serial FAILING ..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on May 04, 2020, 05:49:48 PM
Someone upthread mentioned the high number of fatalities in Europe vs the US, and seemed to blame it on socialized medicine.

Most European countries were hit with a more deadly strain of COVID-19 than parts of the US, and even China.  Type B, which hit most of Europe (Type C prevailed in Italy) is far more deadly than Type A, which prevailed in China and on the US West Coast.  Type B was prevalent on the US East Coast. 

Other factors at play are likely spread of the virus, as Europeans tend to live in closer quarters than Americans, more use of public transportation in Europe (an efficient way to spread the virus), and possibly, the large numbers of elderly affected, particularly in Italy.

A better comparison of the use of public vs private healthcare would be the US to Canada.  The US has a greater number of densely populated cities, but vehicle use is similar, and use of public transportation in large cities is also similar in the two countries.  Even in terms of socialized vs private medicine, it's a superior comparison to Europe, as the latter has mixed medical care (private and public), whereas Canada is solely publicly funded healthcare.  Finally, in Canada, like in the Eastern US, the  Type B virus has been the dominant strain of COVID-19.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 04, 2020, 10:09:26 PM
I keep reading stories that that folks who died in December, in Europe, of the virus and it's complications.

Here's another one..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52526554 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52526554)

Coronavirus: France's first known case 'was in December'

A patient diagnosed with pneumonia near Paris on 27 December actually had the coronavirus, his doctor has said.

Dr Yves Cohen told French media a swab taken at the time was recently tested, and came back positive for Covid-19.

The patient, a man in his 50s who has since fully recovered, said he has no idea where he caught the virus as he hadn't been to any infected areas.

This news means the virus may have arrived in France almost a month earlier than previously thought.





Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 04, 2020, 10:55:52 PM
This news means the virus may have arrived in France almost a month earlier than previously thought.[/i]

Maybe it originated there?

As noted early on, many early cases were likely masked in the background noise of the flu season.  Can't wait to get tested to see if the very bad bout of flu I had in early February was Covid.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 04, 2020, 11:11:15 PM
Coronavirus: France's first known case 'was in December'


Maybe it originated there?


I've said it before and I'll say it again. My uncle was touring China last year. His tour group was scheduled to stop in Wuhan in the middle of November. His train was stopped by the Chinese military outside the city and they told the train full of tourists to go around the city.

China accused American soldiers of bringing the virus into China during the Military World Games held in Wuhan. Those games were held in October 2019. They just made an indirect admission the virus was in Wuhan in the month of October much earlier than their Dec 31st report to WHO.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 04, 2020, 11:36:08 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again.

yeah.. guess I forgot the irony sticker.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 04, 2020, 11:37:42 PM
BillyB

What is it with you that you see 'affirmation' of conspiracy theories with tenuous events ...

YES, it would be suspicious in most other nations, but given tourists couldn't get near Tiananmen Square for the official New Year celebrations ..

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 05, 2020, 12:21:37 AM
In Maxx' thread about opening a restaurant in Georgia there is mention of 'things going back to normal and Sweden and N.Zealand come up.

Sweden has tried the herd immunity tactic and we simply do not know if 'herd immunity' exists ... we DO know that elderly people in care homes have needlessly lost lives .

New Zealand never had the cases that N.America and Europe have had and is not looking forward to opening up her borders to folks from there ..  So 'normal' is what ?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-52540733 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-52540733)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 05, 2020, 12:37:21 AM
BillyB

What is it with you that you see 'affirmation' of conspiracy theories with tenuous events ...


Anything that deviates from the official Chinese narrative is a conspiracy theory to you?  One of us certainly doesn't know how the world works.


YES, it would be suspicious in most other nations, but given tourists couldn't get near Tiananmen Square for the official New Year celebrations ..


Are you saying tanks were running over students in Wuhan and the Chinese didn't want tourists to watch?

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 05, 2020, 01:31:22 AM
So 'normal' is what ?

Countries declaring themselves 'green zones' severely restricting who can come in along with enforced testing and/or quarantine for their own returning citizens and residents.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on May 05, 2020, 03:35:15 AM
Maybe it originated there?

As noted early on, many early cases were likely masked in the background noise of the flu season.  Can't wait to get tested to see if the very bad bout of flu I had in early February was Covid.

There is mounting evidence that it originated in the Wuhan Lab where they have been studying it for several years. It's pretty much down to an accident or purposeful release isn't it?

I believe I had it to back in January and had all the symptoms except a high fever. It was 99/100 but felt like it was higher. I had a 4 way flu shot back in October so I had the flu ruled out and just assumed it was a really bad crud that makes the rounds from time to time. The worse part about it was the non stop dry cough for 5 days and nights
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 05, 2020, 03:58:40 AM
FP,

Suspicions are mounting, but haven't seen any evidence yet that supports such.

Yes, those symptoms sound very familiar.  Here had severe chills for a couple of days under a ton of blankets, high temperature and dry cough.  Think I was 'out of order' for almost a week. Then my dog had a similar cough afterwards for a few days.  Was the first time I ever picked up a bottle of O2 to suck on for a couple of days and nights to go along with the Clarithromycin I took. 

Guessing if it was covid it was a mild case, but was worrisome enough at the time.  I did know of covid but thought it impossible as my last travels were back in November. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on May 05, 2020, 04:16:05 AM
FP,

Suspicions are mounting, but haven't seen any evidence yet that supports such.

Yes, those symptoms sound very familiar.  Here had severe chills for a couple of days under a ton of blankets, high temperature and dry cough.  Think I was 'out of order' for almost a week. Then my dog had a similar cough afterwards for a few days.  Was the first time I ever picked up a bottle of O2 to suck on for a couple of days and nights to go along with the Clarithromycin I took. 

Guessing if it was covid it was a mild case, but was worrisome enough at the time.  I did know of covid but thought it impossible as my last travels were back in November.

More and more evidence is coming to light as to the origination. Who, when and why maybe a question for the ages. With the laser focus some folks had on a "the next pandemic" and a corona virus to boot it's likely to reveal itself. Will folks pay attention? It'll be interesting to see where the vaccine comes from and for some reason I'm confident there will be one, soon.

I had it or something much like it. I shrugged it off at the time as it didn't fit the virus narrative we were seeing on the news. Supposedly it wasn't in the US at the time. Apparently it was just getting discovered in Wuhan and coming this way. Seems now there's evidence it likely was spreading as early as November in the US. I've never been tested but the illness was the worse crud I had ever experienced and it was respiratory . The worse of it lasted about 12-14 days and it took another 3 weeks before I felt like I was over it. It lingered a very long time

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 05, 2020, 04:26:23 AM
Wow FP, that is much longer than what I experienced.  Glad you survived and hope some immunity was gained.  Anyone else in your household catch your cough?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on May 05, 2020, 04:36:08 AM
Wow FP, that is much longer than what I experienced.  Glad you survived and hope some immunity was gained.  Anyone else in your household catch your cough?

Yes my wife and my son in law who isn't in my household got it at about the same time and just as I was feeling better. My daughter got it soon after them. My SIL is a doctor and seems to think he gave it to me. He believes it to be covid. I had recently returned from the Houston/Galveston area and kind of think I might've picked it up from there
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on May 05, 2020, 08:31:10 AM
Someone upthread mentioned the high number of fatalities in Europe vs the US, and seemed to blame it on socialized medicine.

Most European countries were hit with a more deadly strain of COVID-19 than parts of the US, and even China.  Type B, which hit most of Europe (Type C prevailed in Italy) is far more deadly than Type A, which prevailed in China and on the US West Coast.  Type B was prevalent on the US East Coast. 

This is one of the most interesting factoids I have seen here.
I have not heard this before on any of the news shows.
Did I just miss this info on mass media previously ??
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 05, 2020, 08:39:35 AM
This is one of the most interesting factoids I have seen here.
I have not heard this before on any of the news shows.
Did I just miss this info on mass media previously ??

No. It's was reported a while back, also posted on this site.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24283.msg534018#msg534018

NYU did the study and reported about the 'mutated' version of the virus, which they tried to explain why heavier cases on the east coast.

The fact Italy resorted to their way of treating the sick doesn't change the fact that is still goes down to healthcare system. What they have in Europe is what they have in the eastcoast.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 05, 2020, 10:50:25 AM
ML, it was reported several times to the extent 'reporting it' was deemed 'old news' ;)

GQB doesn't know WHAT he is talking about re the standard of care / availability of ICU / standard of medical staff in Europe v ( say ) USA - that is abundantly clear. There isn't an agreed treatment re 'meds that work' and COVID-19 effects different patients in different forms.

Since the articles appearing in week 3 of April, suggesting 'weaker' strains on the US west coast and China and more virulent in Europe, I've not read much much to support / debunk the theory .


We just do not know.



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 05, 2020, 11:47:53 AM
...
GQB doesn't know WHAT he is talking about

LMAO! From simple arithmetic, to N95 masks, to global warming and long dry desert spells, to N.Ireland being a 'country'...hysterical.

Based on the death rate, you are 3x as likely to die of the same disease in the UK compared to the US. Fact.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on May 05, 2020, 01:22:11 PM
This is one of the most interesting factoids I have seen here.
I have not heard this before on any of the news shows.
Did I just miss this info on mass media previously ??


It was reported in British and French media.  I don't think I read about it in Canadian media.


I did post a link a while back about the mutated versions of the virus that had been studied by group of scholars out of Cambridge.  But that study didn't look at the deadliness of each strain, nor did the US study in the link on this thread.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on May 05, 2020, 06:07:47 PM
This is one of the most interesting factoids I have seen here.
I have not heard this before on any of the news shows.
Did I just miss this info on mass media previously ??


Scientists have identified a new strain of the coronavirus that has become dominant worldwide and appears to be more contagious than the versions that spread in the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic, according to a new study led by scientists at Los Alamos National Laboratory.

The new strain appeared in February in Europe, migrated quickly to the East Coast of the United States and has been the dominant strain across the world since mid-March, the scientists wrote.

In addition to spreading faster, it may make people vulnerable to a second infection after a first bout with the disease, the report warned.

The Los Alamos team, assisted by scientists at Duke University and the University of Sheffield in England, identified 14 mutations. Those mutations occurred among the nearly 30,000 base pairs of RNA that other scientists say make up the coronavirus’s genome. The report authors focused on a mutation called D614G, which is responsible for the change in the virus’ spikes.

“The story is worrying, as we see a mutated form of the virus very rapidly emerging, and over the month of March becoming the dominant pandemic form,” study leader Bette Korber, a computational biologist at Los Alamos, wrote on her Facebook page. “When viruses with this mutation enter a population, they rapidly begin to take over the local epidemic, thus they are more transmissible.”

http://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-05-05/mutant-coronavirus-has-emerged-more-contagious-than-original
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on May 05, 2020, 08:33:00 PM
Local packinghouse tested all employees.....58% infected! Unfortunately some of their spouses are employed at local nursing homes. One home reports 50% of residents infected. Several other homes reporting outbreaks. I'm expecting 20% of the local population infected by the end of June (I might be optimistic, could well be worse). Idiot freaking governor started loosening restrictions May 1. :arguing:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 05, 2020, 11:51:44 PM
A little bit of 'juicy gossip'

The UK Professor, whose model showing up to 250k deaths ensured the UK govt 'woke up' from their laissez-faire approach has just had to resign for failing to 'socially distance' from his lover ....


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52553229 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52553229)

Prof Neil Ferguson has quit as a government adviser on coronavirus after admitting an "error of judgement".

Some of you may remember a certain member here discussing a Swedish Prof, who strongly disagreed with Neil Ferguson telling the UK govt that Sweden's 'herd immunity' approach was 'sound' ...that the UK govt was 'wrong' to change tactic ..

30k plus dead in the UK and GAWD knows how many would have died , if the govt HADN'T changed policy  :wallbash:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 06, 2020, 12:27:12 AM
30k plus dead in the UK


In a month and a half, 1 out of every 2300 UK citizens have died. Probably closer to 1 out of every 2000 since not everybody who died by COVID-19 was counted. If the deaths doesn't rise or fall and maintains steady, by the end of the year, 1 out of every 250 UK citizens would be dead.

In the same time Belgium lost about 1 out of 1450 people.

The tiny nation San Marino was hit the hardest with 1 out of every 827 citizens dead. If they maintained the pace they just set, by the end of the year, 1 out of every 100 citizens would be dead.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 06, 2020, 12:40:26 AM
Dear BillyB

1/ Every death assumed to be COVID-19 IS counted by 'our' ONS... the data takes longer to assimilate - hence the 'spike' in numbers every seven days ..and the UK topping the European national deaths chart ..  given 'our' govt stated 20k would be a disaster.

2/ Indeed, the UK hasn't got the record for deaths per head of population...  Belgium is a similar nation to the UK in that cities / towns are incredibly near each other
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 06, 2020, 05:25:33 AM

“The story is worrying, as we see a mutated form of the virus very rapidly emerging, and over the month of March becoming the dominant pandemic form,” study leader Bette Korber, a computational biologist at Los Alamos, wrote on her Facebook page. “When viruses with this mutation enter a population, they rapidly begin to take over the local epidemic, thus they are more transmissible.”


The work is far from complete. 

     -  The mutation was discovered based on computational analysis. 
     -  It's virulence has not been tested with biologic cells, much less living animals. 
     -  This mutated form of virus is possibly not as contagious or lethal as the prevalent existing forms.
     -  Natural selection gives evolutionary preference to forms that do not kill the host. 

However, anything is possible in this unfolding story.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 06, 2020, 07:49:30 AM
LMAO! From simple arithmetic, to N95 masks, to global warming and long dry desert spells, to N.Ireland being a 'country'...hysterical.

1/ Arithmetic error on my part now acknowledged several times .. I'm sure you've never posted any mistake

2/ 'N95' is a US term for which we (EU)  have two standards - one capable of handling dust particles, t'other ..v.fine liquid particulates ... you have forgotten that lesson... how 'convenient' ..

3/ N.California has ever shorter rainy seasons... YOU duck and weave, refusing to believe this could be anything to do with man-kind ..

4/ N.Ireland is a country and when you'll see Rory McIlroy's score on the screen - think of me.

Now back to the thread theme..


Based on the death rate, you are 3x as likely to die of the same disease in the UK compared to the US. Fact.

Depends WHERE you are in the US / UK .. the latter has a MUCH denser population index ..

United Kingdom is 281 per Km2 (727 people per mi2)
USA                        36 per Km2    (94 people per mi2)

Some more arithmetic for you..the UK is nearly EIGHT times more densely populated




Now, let's deal with your crappy arithmetic

a) UK population = c.68 million, c.30k deaths
b) US population c.328 million c. 72k deaths   

US has c.4.8 times the population... agreed, so far ...?

So, if the US matched the UK it should have 144k deaths... agreed so far ...?

The US has (so far)  72k deaths.... SO... one is TWICE ( not three times) more likely to have died ..There's the FACT...


Next time you choose to 'pick a fight' ... be sure to check for your very own peccadilloes, eh ? ...









 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 06, 2020, 09:41:39 AM
1/ Arithmetic error on my part now acknowledged several times .. I'm sure you've never posted any mistake

It wasn't an 'error' considering the statement that followed the simple adding 'error'. Do a quick search on this site 'arithmetic' by poster msmob..don't be surprised at how many times you berate posters about their 'arithmetic error'. I challenge you.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=search

Quote
2/ 'N95' is a US term for which we (EU)  have two standards - one capable of handling dust particles, t'other ..v.fine liquid particulates ... you have forgotten that lesson... how 'convenient' ..

Then, like you often do, why comment on something you clearly have no knowledge of? Again, I already listed the differences between N95 /N99. I haven't 'forgotten' anything. I had already posted the variance way BEFORE you came trotting to claim an authority over something you know nothing about. You're not only obtuse, but a bullsh!tter, too..

Here's the thread again: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24136.msg528287#msg528287

Quote
3/ N.California has ever shorter rainy seasons... YOU duck and weave, refusing to believe this could be anything to do with man-kind ..

READ: *El Nino, La Nina*. Again, why pretend you know something YOU CLEARLY HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT?
And Los Angeles basin/SoCal is technically a desert/arid region. Long dry spell is its natural climate. Not because of global warming.

Here's the thread again: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=21622.msg520180#msg520180

Quote
4/ N.Ireland is a country and when you'll see Rory McIlroy's score on the screen - think of me.

Yes, I will and laugh. Thanks for the gift that keeps on giving.

Here's the thread again: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=21622.msg518063#msg518063

Quote
Now back to the thread theme..


Depends WHERE you are in the US / UK .. the latter has a MUCH denser population index ..

United Kingdom is 281 per Km2 (727 people per mi2)
USA                        36 per Km2    (94 people per mi2)

Some more arithmetic for you..the UK is nearly EIGHT times more densely populated

Again, try and keep up. Understand the meaning of the term 'per capita'...

Quote
Now, let's deal with your crappy arithmetic

a) UK population = c.68 million, c.30k deaths
b) US population c.328 million c. 72k deaths   

US has c.4.8 times the population... agreed, so far ...?

So, if the US matched the UK it should have 144k deaths... agreed so far ...?

The US has (so far)  72k deaths.... SO... one is TWICE ( not three times) more likely to have died ..There's the FACT...

Next time you choose to 'pick a fight' ... be sure to check for your very own peccadilloes, eh ? ...

Easy. Read above.

:devil:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 07, 2020, 05:52:34 AM
Dearest GQB

Please indulge me in detailed explanations as to your own arithmetic being seriously flawed..

To this poster, it seems that you have difficulty owned a mistake - whilst being v.quick to pointing them out ..


Anyway, Belarus' situation fascinates me ..Seems like President 'Lukashouldgo' is now managing to fall out with Russia's state media ..

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/05/07/belarus-expels-russian-journalist-over-fake-coronavirus-report-media-a70203 (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/05/07/belarus-expels-russian-journalist-over-fake-coronavirus-report-media-a70203)



"Belarus Expels Russian Journalist Over ‘Fake’ Coronavirus Report"
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 07, 2020, 08:46:31 AM
Dearest GQB

Please indulge me in detailed explanations as to your own arithmetic being seriously flawed..

To this poster, it seems that you have difficulty owned a mistake - whilst being v.quick to pointing them out ..

Which part of # deaths/million you're having difficulty understanding again? Today accounting is showing: US: 227/mil; UK 443/mil.

If you don't like per million, use per 100,000, or maybe use 1,000 if you struggle with too many numbers.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on May 12, 2020, 03:17:55 PM
Most Blue States are badly managed and owes zillions to their state employee
pensions and they are going to stay closed as long as possible and lose as many
businesses and jobs as possible and then they are going to want a bailout from
everyone else when this is over.

They are permanently screwing up their tax revenues while simultaneously 
blowing up their spending and then they will want to blame it on somebody
else besides themselves.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on May 12, 2020, 03:42:48 PM
Dearest GQB

Please indulge me in detailed explanations as to your own arithmetic being seriously flawed..

Anybody who is trying to math on this is just guessing. It's just like lefty 
global warming predictions. They don't use all the factors in the equation
so they can project whatever they want.

NOBODY knows how many people have or had the virus that showed no
symptoms. Since nobody knows that number all the other numbers are
going to be wild projections.

100% of deaths are considered covid deaths even if they were involved in
a car wreck or had 10 heart attacks the year before.

Typical liberal mathematical model:
Garbage in/garbage out & pretend you are superior.


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 12, 2020, 03:57:14 PM
Most Blue States are badly managed and owes zillions to their state employee
pensions and they are going to stay closed as long as possible and lose as many
businesses and jobs as possible and then they are going to want a bailout from
everyone else when this is over.

They are permanently screwing up their tax revenues while simultaneously 
blowing up their spending and then they will want to blame it on somebody
else besides themselves.

According to our governor, WA, OR & CA combined need $ 1 trillion dollar bailout to meet fiscal budget! Kind of him to had spent the time to calculate it. LMAO. Of course they're now using the trendy classification of *it's for the first responders*.

*Never let a good crisis go to waste!* California already was broke waaay before the virus came around. All states are ran by Democrats, so what's new?

Lastly, the fed's needs to 'sell' the USPS and get rid of that useless deadweight. It loses billions every year for gawd knows how long.

Anybody who is trying to math on this is just guessing. It's just like lefty 
global warming predictions. They don't use all the factors in the equation
so they can project whatever they want. …

Exactly.
Which was why my original post on the topic strictly cited based solely on available numbers posted on world-o-meter at that particular day. IIRC, I even date stamped the report to accurate cite the numbers at the time. #deaths per capita (per million).

Swoosh...went over people's head...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 13, 2020, 01:16:33 AM
Anybody who is trying to math on this is just guessing. It's just like lefty 
global warming predictions. They don't use all the factors in the equation
so they can project whatever they want.

There's a post from a guy for who covering his ears and talking loudly 'makes bad news go away' ..but it's still going on .. ( man-made global-warming and the spread of SARS-CoV2)

NOBODY knows how many people have or had the virus that showed no
symptoms. Since nobody knows that number all the other numbers are
going to be wild projections.

100% of deaths are considered covid deaths even if they were involved in
a car wreck or had 10 heart attacks the year before.

Typical liberal mathematical model:
Garbage in/garbage out & pretend you are superior.


Er, 'sorry' . but THIS poster has started comparing the death rates for nations v. the present ones .   MUCH more accurate ..  At it's peak, the UK's was double .. 


I 'get' that some parts of the US / UK haven't had the high numbers of fatalities, but we don't know why...

Your Dr Fauci - that some seek to 'discredit' because he's speaking from a medical person's perspective ... not a bean-counter has it nailed ..... you should be listening to his advice ...not the bean counters







Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 13, 2020, 08:43:47 AM

Your Dr Fauci - that some seek to 'discredit' because he's speaking from a medical person's perspective ... not a bean-counter has it nailed ..... you should be listening to his advice ...not the bean counters

Is this the same Dr. Fauci who told us on January 21, "But this is not a major threat to the people of the United States and this is not something that the citizens of the United States right now should be worried about?"

You know what comes next -  Trump's decision a few days later to go against Fauci's assessment and to do something - ban China travelers.  I wish he had banned Italy travelers too, but that story was just unfolding.   

In February Fauci also told us to not wear a mask and that the risk of covid was low.

I am not blaming nor discrediting Dr.  Fauci.   The whole world including medical authorities such as Dr. Fauci got caught flat footed. Much of Fauci's advice has been very valuable, and the public tends to respect him, so I hope he continues to speak.   

The main point is that Dr. Fauci is just one of a large number of respected medical authorities  who have something to contribute to the "solution."  Trump and the Governors listen to the broad range of medical advice as well as advice about the economy.  They synthesize it to decide policy.   



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 13, 2020, 01:32:56 PM
Right now, was probably right, then.. The govt in the UK was saying the risk had moved from 'ultra low to low' ..

'We' now know to err on the side of caution..right ? !

Listen to your good lady ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on May 16, 2020, 10:55:57 AM
Chinese State Media Warn Country Will Interfere in U.S. Election
http://freebeacon.com/national-security/chinese-state-media-warn-country-will-interfere-in-u-s-election/


China Threatens to Sanction U.S. Politicians for Coronavirus Criticism
http://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2020-05-14/china-threatens-to-sanction-us-politicians-for-coronavirus-criticism


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 16, 2020, 11:48:22 AM
]Chinese State Media Warn Country Will Interfere in U.S. Election

Hmm, the free beacon' says will interfere and the Global times said might   ..and it's referring to retribution for US actions..

Not quite the same, eh, Beel ?



China Threatens to Sanction U.S. Politicians for Coronavirus Criticism
http://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2020-05-14/china-threatens-to-sanction-us-politicians-for-coronavirus-criticism


From the article ..

The post does not expressly say who China would sanction and how


Do you think said 'law makers' will be 'bovvered' ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 18, 2020, 05:48:32 AM
Many pharmaceutical companies are in the process of testing and developing vaccines for COVID-19.  This morning, Moderna, the first company to start human testing, reported results of its Phase 1 Test.  In the CEO's words, "we could not be happier."

Phase 1 involved injection of two doses in 51 subjects, grouped in different chorts. The first group was injected on March 16 and yielded the following results:

    -  8 of 8 subjects showed neutralizing antibodies
    -  The response was dose dependent
    -  The produced antibody levels are similar to or higher than measured in patients who recovered from COVID-19

Safety is of course an issue.  The reaction in subjects was similar to a flu shot (pain at injection site, redness at injection site, and mild chills or fever).

Phase 2 (600 subjects) has been approved and will be underway soon.  Phase 3 ("many thousands") is scheduled to start in July. 

The news is so good as to move the stock market up significantly.   
   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 18, 2020, 05:58:45 AM
Many pharmaceutical companies are in the process of testing and developing vaccines for COVID-19.  This morning, Moderna, the first company to start human testing, reported results of its Phase 1 Test.  In the CEO's words, "we could not be happier."

Phase 1 involved injection of two doses in 51 subjects, grouped in different chorts. The first group was injected on March 16 and yielded the following results:

    -  8 of 8 subjects showed neutralizing antibodies
    -  The response was dose dependent
    -  The produced antibody levels are similar to or higher than measured in patients who recovered from COVID-19

Safety is of course an issue.  The reaction in subjects was similar to a flu shot (pain at injection site, redness at injection site, and mild chills or fever).

Phase 2 (600 subjects) has been approved and will be underway soon.  Phase 3 ("many thousands") is scheduled to start in July. 

The news is so good as to move the stock market up significantly.   
   

Source, please ?   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 18, 2020, 07:43:08 AM
Source, please ?   

Interview with CEO on CNBC.  Not available, but here is Moderna's press release.

http://investors.modernatx.com/news-releases/news-release-details/moderna-announces-positive-interim-phase-1-data-its-mrna-vaccine

Market is up 2-3%.  Part of that is due to Fed's Powell comforting remarks on 60 Minutes.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 18, 2020, 09:19:26 AM
There is also good news on the therapeutic drug scene from the pharmaceutical company Sorrento Therapeutics. 

From its press release:

Quote
Sorrento has been diligently screening billions of antibodies... and has so far identifiedhundreds of antibody candidates that bind the S1 subunit of the SARS-CoV-2 Spike protein. Approximately one dozen of these antibodies have demonstrated the ability to block the S1 protein's interaction with humanangiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2), the receptor used for viral entrance into human cells.

Among the antibodies showing neutralizing activity, one antibody stood out forits ability to completely block SARS-CoV-2 infection of healthy cells in the experiments. STI-1499 completely neutralized the virus infectivity at a very low antibody dose, making it a prime candidate for further testing and development. Initial biochemical and biophysical analyses also indicate STI-1499 is a potentially strong antibody drug candidate.


Since the announcement on Friday, the stock (SRNE) has appreciated about 400%, selling for $2.56 on Thursday and hitting a high of $10.00 today before pulling back. 

There are innumerable companies endeavoring to discover an effective therapeutic.  An effective vaccine will not make them moot because 1) it will be impossible to develop readily the billions of doses needed for the world, and 2) not everyone will choose to be vaccinated. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 18, 2020, 09:47:30 AM
1) it will be impossible to develop readily the billions of doses needed for the world,


It's too expensive to allow this virus to run loose. They will pay every capable lab in the world to produce the best candidates. The developed nations are most likely to create a vaccine and most likely they will use it on their people first to get their economies going. I understand some nations have made deals but governments do have a responsibility to take care of their people first. I suspect a few years from now we'll learn which vaccines had some success and which ones were flops.
 

2) not everyone will choose to be vaccinated.


In societies that aren't free, governments make may it mandatory to get vaccinated. In societies that are free, who will pay for the medical bills of those that got infected because they were allowed to refused being vaccinated? If 5 years from now it is determine there is a safe and effective vaccine and a large group of people don't want it, there may be government action taken. If a handful of people refuse an effective vaccine, it's not a big deal since most of the herd achieved immunity.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 18, 2020, 04:19:00 PM
Washington Post's coverage of Moderna's vaccine after analyzing the test results and comparing with other vaccines in the pipeline.


[Link deleted - it was so long that it broke through the page borders]

Title:  "Moderna’s coronavirus vaccine shows encouraging early results"
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: jone on May 18, 2020, 04:39:31 PM
I watched part of Trump's Fox News interview yesterday.   In the interview he refused to speculate on the origins of COVID 19.   But he did say that he has some really good intel.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 18, 2020, 04:46:28 PM
Washington Post's coverage of Moderna's vaccine after analyzing the test results and comparing with other vaccines in the pipeline.


Link Here (http://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/05/18/coronavirus-vaccine-first-results/)

Title:  "Moderna’s coronavirus vaccine shows encouraging early results"
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 19, 2020, 03:35:24 AM
I watched part of Trump's Fox News interview yesterday.   In the interview he refused to speculate on the origins of COVID 19.   But he did say that he has some really good intel.

Refraining from spilling is not a usual 'Trampu' trait ..   

He's building up a fine record for silly utterances and tweets, though
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 19, 2020, 04:14:31 AM
For those of 'us' who still think Sweden was an example of how things should be done...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52704836 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52704836)

"They told us that we shouldn't send anyone to the hospital, even if they may be 65 and have many years to live. We were told not to send them in," says Latifa Löfvenberg, a nurse who worked in several care homes around Gävle, north of Stockholm, at the beginning of the pandemic.

"Some can have a lot of years left to live with loved ones, but they don't have the chance... because they never make it to the hospital," she says. "They suffocate to death. And it's a lot of panic and it's very hard to just stand by and watch."

Ms Löfvenberg is now working on a Covid-19 ward in a major hospital in the Swedish capital, where she says the demographic of patients she's treating is further evidence that the elderly are being kept away. "We don't have many older people. It's a lot of younger people born in the 90s, 80s, 70s."
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 19, 2020, 04:31:15 AM
Link Here

Thanks for the help.   Us seniors always appreciate technology help from young fellers.   :) :) :)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 19, 2020, 04:48:55 AM
The New York Times pouring some cold water (yet real)  on yesterday's Moderna vaccine news. 

Why vaccines are so slow

Early news about medical treatments — like yesterday’s announcement that a coronavirus vaccine has shown positive results in eight people — can feel both exciting and frustrating.

The frustrating part is the timing. Even if all continues to go well with the research into this vaccine, it won’t be available until late this year or early next year. Between now and then, the vaccine will have to endure two more research trials, one involving hundreds of people and the other involving thousands.

Given the virus’s terrible toll, that long process can seem strangely lacking in urgency. But scientists insist that it isn’t. Here are the key reasons they say that there are no easy or fast routes to a vaccine:

Early results don’t always stand. In 2015, the French drug company Sanofi began selling the first vaccine for dengue. The drug had made it through multiple research trials — although some researchers believed Sanofi had ignored worrisome signs. Sure enough, as children in the Philippines began using it, some contracted an even worse form of dengue. Today, use of the vaccine is highly restricted.

In recent testimony, Dr. Anthony Fauci, the nation’s top infectious-disease expert, noted that a coronavirus vaccine could suffer from the same problem.

The larger point is that drugs that look good in small, initial studies often look less good when they’re tested in more people.

Side effects matter. A vaccine doesn’t merely need to work, as Katie Thomas, a Times reporter covering pharmaceuticals, explained to me. It needs not to have side effects that cause more damage than the virus itself.

This coronavirus seems to kill only a small percentage of people who get it. The side effects have the potential to do more damage, because any coronavirus vaccine will be given to billions of people, including many with underlying health problems.

Politics matter, too. Vaccines are the subject of frequent conspiracy theories and falsehoods. Given this skepticism, a coronavirus vaccine that did more harm than good could cause much broader damage.

It could lead people around the world to stop taking vaccines that actually work. That’s what happened in the Philippines after the dengue scandal.

All of which is a reminder that promising early results — like yesterday’s — often prove fleeting. Only about 10 percent of drugs that clear the first research phase ultimately make it to market.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 19, 2020, 07:45:49 AM
How many have really died from SARS-Cov2 / COVID-19 in the UK, so far ?
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2020/5/19/80803979-fc53-48b0-8851-698b9b2cc338.png)

UK sees almost 55,000 extra deaths
Figures released by the UK's national statistical agencies show that there were 54,437 more deaths up to 8 May than would normally have been expected by this time of year.

The figure is larger than the 34,796 people who died after a positive test result for coronavirus up to that date, or the 41,020 people whose death certificate mentioned Covid-19.

Robert Cuffe, the BBC's head of statistics, said the larger "excess deaths" figure was likely to capture the true impact of the virus, reflecting the numbers of people who died without a test or who died because of the strain on the healthcare system.


Guess which one you'll see 'reported' in 'official stats' worldwide
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 19, 2020, 07:59:25 AM
Well, lookeedat!! Lockdown is really working in the UK!!!


Now comparing this to Sweden...uh-huh
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 19, 2020, 11:22:15 AM
Note to GQB..

'lock down' was implemented FAR too late..

Italy was a big clue..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on May 19, 2020, 01:47:33 PM
(http://cdn.creators.com/1054/278713/278713_image.jpg)


(http://cdn2.newsok.biz/cache/r960-de883ab597963c88480f2691979bccc4.jpg)


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 19, 2020, 05:29:16 PM
How many have really died from SARS-Cov2 / COVID-19 in the UK, so far ?
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2020/5/19/80803979-fc53-48b0-8851-698b9b2cc338.png)

UK sees almost 55,000 extra deaths
Figures released by the UK's national statistical agencies show that there were 54,437 more deaths up to 8 May than would normally have been expected by this time of year.


All nations will be in the same boat as UK underreporting by accident or on purpose. I have read a few individuals here were told to manipulate the data so it wouldn't look so bad.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 19, 2020, 05:32:47 PM
All nations will be in the same boat as UK underreporting by accident or on purpose. I have read a few individuals here were told to manipulate the data so it wouldn't look so bad.

Given the financial incentive that reimburse hospitals more for COVID cases, the US is likely more guilty of over-reporting.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 19, 2020, 05:38:53 PM
Given the financial incentive that reimburse hospitals more for COVID cases, the US is likely more guilty of over-reporting.


Hospitals that handle COVID-19 patients have separate wings for those patients. If I died in the Seattle VA Hospital and they tried to count me as a COVID-19 death to make money, somebody may get criminally charged. I don't think it's worth it. Many nurses and doctors aren't going to play the game of a hospital looking to steal from taxpayers and will report to a media hungry for stories Trump's coronavirus programs are easy to abuse. Deaths over and above the usual number this time of year is the most important number on Moby's chart.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on May 19, 2020, 07:52:43 PM
How many have really died from SARS-Cov2 / COVID-19 in the UK, so far ?
(http://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2020/5/19/80803979-fc53-48b0-8851-698b9b2cc338.png)

Robert Cuffe, the BBC's head of statistics, said the larger "excess deaths" figure was likely to capture the true impact of the virus, reflecting the numbers of people who died without a test

Just saw a segment on news tonight regarding similar situation in Russia.

The government numbers for deaths from Corona looked to be too low .

A non-government Russian man (can't remember his position . . . sort of like an investigative reporter I think) said that the true number of deaths from Corona was probably 10 times or more that reported . . . and could be ascertained by looking at the total deaths from all causes so far this year compared to the number for same time period in earlier years.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 19, 2020, 09:41:22 PM
Just saw a segment on news tonight regarding similar situation in Russia.

The government numbers for deaths from Corona looked to be too low .


Most governments numbers are low. I'm not surprised about Russia's. I will say Putin did an excellent job closing Russia's border with China early so that is why their outbreak is starting later than even ours.

Dagestan's top cleric, Mufti Akhmad Abdulayev, described the situation as dire and pleaded to the Kremlin for help. The region's health minister, Dzhamaludin Gadzhiibragimov, said that 657 people had died of pneumonia in the region, including 40 medics.

According to a regional breakdown of Russia's official coronavirus tally, only 29 COVID-19 deaths have been recorded in the region of 2.9 million people by Monday.
Critics have accused Russian authorities of downplaying the crisis and manipulating the figures by attributing coronavirus deaths to so-called community-acquired pneumonia and other medical conditions.

Doctors told AFP they have been overwhelmed by the number of patients, while the lack of medical supplies had left people in the region feeling abandoned.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/putin-intervenes-russias-dagestan-faces-virus-catastrophe-172142195.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 20, 2020, 01:08:38 AM
I will say Putin did an excellent job closing Russia's border with China early so that is why their outbreak is starting later than even ours.

The Russian infections were mainly from Europe !

A higher than expected proportion of Russian based Chinese - when allowed to return - were carrying the virus !

It's a BIG country, with less people travelling to Moscow at the moment, probably the only reason the wave is delayed.

Dagestan? They simply didn't get self isolation with weddings / funerals being attended by 500 plus guests

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 21, 2020, 05:31:37 AM
PROMISING NEWS ON SECOND VACCINE

Three days ago Moderna released human test data showing very promising news in developing a vaccine, and the stock market jumped up.  Today comes promising news on a second vaccine that is now in Phase 2 trials with two Phase 3 trials planned to commence soon:  10,000 UK volunteers in early June, and  30,000 US volunteers in July.  AZ plans to have Phase 3 UK clinical results in August.   
 
This second vaccine is being developed by the UK pharma company Astrazeneca  in collaboration with Oxford.  It has  not released human trial data, only trials with monkeys, and AZ claims those demonstrated efficacy for a single dose exposed to an "enormous"  load of viruses.   

In the field of developing pharmaceuticals, this is progressing at  breakneck speed.   This is happening because of the US Operation Warp Speed Program.  The program not only streamlines the regulatory process, it fuels the development with $1 billion from BARDA (US HHS  Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority).

The funding is helping to setup production for fast delivery of doses when approved for use.  The US has already secured 300 million doses, to be ready by January 2021.  There will be doses available for Europe and the rest of the world. 

The AZ CEO mentioned a slight concern with the declining rate of infection.  To demonstrate efficacy it is best to conduct Phase 3 trials in populations with growing outbreaks.  Evidently he needs to talk with BC who is promising second waves in the US.   :D

The AZ news is good yet is not prompting another rise in the stock market. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 21, 2020, 05:47:56 AM
A MOMENT TO REFLECT

The Democrats have criticized Trump vehemently accusing him of not doing enough as if the Feds should be managing everything.  They forget how when NYC and New York State screamed for help to avoid an Italy situation, the US marshaled  resources to deliver new hospitals, ventilators and other needs.  The response was so immense and prompt that the hospitals and ventilators went largely unused, and ventilators are now being sent to countries around the world.   

And the Democrats continued to complain that Trump was failing.

Question: "What is the most important need in the battle against the pandemic?"

Answer:  Development of an effective vaccine.

Trump has focused much of the US effort on exactly that, and the Federal resources are helping to produce a pipeline of promising vaccines at breakneck speed. 

It is time for Democrats to  get real and to work together with Trump.  If they can't do that, at least SHUT UP!!!

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 21, 2020, 05:58:15 AM
ANOTHER MOMENT TO REFLECT

Florida.  Yes, the news media again and again criticized Florida's governor and  promised disaster when Florida started to reopen.  "Just wait, in two weeks Florida will be a New York, an Italy."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qm6yjTrGkLc



And one day later, the press is again criticizing DeSantis, about the firing of an employee who evidently was not working well with the rest of the team.   

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on May 21, 2020, 07:23:26 AM
"Trump has focused much of the US effort on exactly that"

NO he hasn't, Trump is doing JUST ONE JOB right now, and that's running his campaign, EVERYTHING he is doing relates to that

it's been estimated, that Trump's firing the doctor in charge of the federal vaccine program for his refusing to promote hydroxychloroquine cost the federal government 6 months of vaccine development time
google if you don't believe it..

Trump's negligence has cost 10s of thousands of American lives but that doesn't fit into your mind, because you are complicit in his crimes because you voted for him
you are an accessory to the preventable deaths of thousands of your own countrymen

you want to have your voice, your freedom, but want to deny these rights to those who don't believe in Trump
that DEFINITELY makes you a Repiublicon
step 1 for the USA to pull out of this mess, is to get rid of Trump in Nov


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 21, 2020, 08:15:23 AM
PROMISING NEWS ON SECOND VACCINE


Labs are going to promote their product. If I were the owner of the lab, I'd promote my products too. We simply don't know which vaccines will be chosen but it's going to be 4 or 5 of them. Some vaccines may consist of an inactive coronavirus for our immune system to learn so it can quickly defeat the real threat when it enters out body. Some vaccines may target the coronavirus's genetic material to inactivate it or at least make it lose it's ability to attach to our cells. Another question is how effective the vaccine will be and will it provide lifetime immunity?


The funding is helping to setup production for fast delivery of doses when approved for use.  The US has already secured 300 million doses, to be ready by January 2021. 


Most of the doses for the 4 to 5 best candidate vaccines will be created before approval. If a few of those candidate vaccines are rejected in January, hundreds of millions of doses of vaccines will be thrown away. I don't expect every American to have a vaccine available to them in January. The election will be over by then and if Trump is still president, the media will hammer him.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on May 21, 2020, 08:43:02 AM
your immunity will decline by about 30% per year after either getting a vaccine or being infected and surviving
Corona vaccines will be like a flu vaccine, there will need to be a refresh at least every year and the vaccine will likely need to be a combination of several strains combined into one vaccine
you can google and read about it
IMHO. they should also combine Corona with a flu vaccine
but none of that is going to happen this year in the USA
and next year will be too damned late

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on May 21, 2020, 09:03:48 AM
your immunity will decline by about 30% per year after either getting a vaccine or being infected and surviving
Corona vaccines will be like a flu vaccine, there will need to be a refresh at least every year and the vaccine will likely need to be a combination of several strains combined into one vaccine
you can google and read about it
IMHO. they should also combine Corona with a flu vaccine
but none of that is going to happen this year in the USA
and next year will be too damned late

I actually agree with you for a minute here but, you fail to consider we are not being allowed to develop herd immunity as we were with the previous 4 strains that comeback yearly. Those strains come yearly in much smaller numbers for that reason and yes we have vaccines to handle them. If not allowed to open up and develop a herd immunity covid is very likely to spread en mass next year as it has now. It appears now we'll have a vaccine by October but that'll be too late for the morons believing in distancing and lock downs to slow that spread. Your only answer so far is to hate Trump and abide in your hovel to the junk science being fed you daily
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 21, 2020, 10:00:33 AM
Corona vaccines will be like a flu vaccine, there will need to be a refresh at least every year and the vaccine will likely need to be a combination of several strains combined into one vaccine


The coronavirus does not mutate as fast as the flu virus which is a good thing. The many strains of the coronavirus out there are small mutations and a vaccine may be able to handle them all. It's hard enough to create the first vaccine ever for a coronavirus. Hopefully the virus doesn't do a major mutation where we have to create another vaccine for a whole new coronavirus and China's present becomes the gift that keeps on giving.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 21, 2020, 10:24:52 AM
we are not being allowed to develop herd immunity

Ah, the famed 'herd immunity'..

..and how many must DIE to achieve your idea of 'heaven' .. ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on May 21, 2020, 10:44:20 AM
Ah, the famed 'herd immunity'..

..and how many must DIE to achieve your idea of 'heaven' .. ?

And then there's the forum and world expert with contacts across the globe from his mum's basement that just keeps rebounding with nothing. Time and time again, nothing.

How many are going to have to die yearly from repeating this pandemic if we stay in lock down, continually suppressing immunity and do not gain herd immunity? What say you Mr. Expert?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on May 21, 2020, 10:47:18 AM
you’ll need to suffer between 1 and 2 million deaths to get the USA to the level of herd immunity
and there will still be hundreds of thousands more deaths after that see Fauci’s estimate

doesn’t sound like a good solution to me...
meanwhile Korea has about 1% of our infection rate
because they used the WHO test instead of wasting time endeavoring to develop their own
and aggressive contact tracing and quarantine instead of lying to the public about Covid
yeah, 1% of our numbers...
i dunno bout you, but I like their numbers better
too bad we didn’t do that instead of calling it a hoax to hurt Trump’s campaign

yup, I’m hunkered down, and look like a character out of Andromeda strain when I have to go out into stores filled with virus protestors

but, my odds of being alive next year are MUCH greater than yours, because I am taking MAXIMUM precautions
because that is the logical thing to do
cuz no freakin way, am I gonna drink the Kool-Aid like you


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on May 21, 2020, 10:58:03 AM
you’ll need to suffer between 1 and 2 million deaths to get the USA to the level of herd immunity
and there will still be hundreds of thousands more deaths after that see Fauci’s estimate

doesn’t sound like a good solution to me...
meanwhile Korea has about 1% of our infection rate
because they used the WHO test instead of wasting time endeavoring to develop their own
and aggressive contact tracing and quarantine instead of lying to the public about Covid
yeah, 1% of our numbers...
i dunno bout you, but I like their numbers better
too bad we didn’t do that instead of calling it a hoax to hurt Trump’s campaign

yup, I’m hunkered down, and look like a character out of Andromeda strain when I have to go out into stores filled with virus protestors

but, my odds of being alive next year are MUCH greater than yours, because I am taking MAXIMUM precautions
because that is the logical thing to do
cuz no freakin way, am I gonna drink the Kool-Aid like you

Fauci's advice has been as wrong almost as much as Moobs the forum expert here. That's been a lot. When this shit is over we'll see how wrong you or I have been. All previous pandemics have relied on immunity to a large degree to get it under and maintain control of it.

If there's anyone between you and I swimming in the kool-aid that, would be you parroting of I hate Trump Get your head out of your ass. You ain't this stupid. Your "hate Trump" offensive only makes you look like the fool I'm beginning to believe you are.

Korea's response means dick. This is the USofA and this is where we are now. If you had the slightest grip on reality (which you do not) you'd know that
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 21, 2020, 11:30:42 AM
Korea suffered the same strain as did the west coast in the US, which FWIW, had the same infection impact as those in Washington, Oregon, California...Korea was spared the type of European strain.
 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on May 21, 2020, 11:35:44 AM
And then there's the forum and world expert with contacts across the globe from his mum's basement that just keeps rebounding with nothing. Time and time again, nothing.

How many are going to have to die yearly from repeating this pandemic if we stay in lock down, continually suppressing immunity and do not gain herd immunity? What say you Mr. Expert?

Unlike you, I'm not claiming 'expertise' ...  I'm asking your 'expertise' re your suggestion of  'herd immunity' .. ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 21, 2020, 01:49:02 PM
[quote author=krimster2 link=topic=24136.msg535471#msg535471 date=1590071006

NO he hasn't, Trump is doing JUST ONE JOB right now, and that's running his campaign, EVERYTHING he is doing relates to that

[/quote]

I believe he is trying to find the balance between public health and the economy.  If he does well, he will be reelected. 

Quote
it's been estimated, that Trump's firing the doctor in charge of the federal vaccine program for his refusing to promote hydroxychloroquine cost the federal government 6 months of vaccine development time

I watch the news on both sides and have heard nothing about losing any time, much less 6 months.   To the contrary, Dr. Bright complained the US was moving too fast.   Since his removal from head of BARDA, that authority's funding has accelerated.  It seems we would have lost 6 months if Dr. Bright had not been removed. 

As far as other matters, I watched the interview of Dr. Bright and he revealed nothing that had not already been revealed by others.   

So dip into your bag of lies and find another one.  This Dr. Bright dog ain't hunting.   

Quote
Trump's negligence has cost 10s of thousands of American lives but that doesn't fit into your mind, because you are complicit in his crimes because you voted for him
you are an accessory to the preventable deaths of thousands of your own countrymen

You say this only because in February-March you predicted an apocalypse and overreacted.  You rearranged your life, family, home, and job.  Not only that, you redeployed your wealth in preparation of an apocalypse and now realize you were wrong.  The apocalypse is not going to happen.  Good for us, sad for you.  Ready to eat your stockpile of freeze dried food?   

Quote
you want to have your voice, your freedom, but want to deny these rights to those who don't believe in Trump
that DEFINITELY makes you a Repiublicon

Haven't you been reading the recent news.  It is the Democrats who are being found guilty of wrongdoing and lying, not Trump.     


Quote
step 1 for the USA to pull out of this mess, is to get rid of Trump in Nov

It could happen.  But why would the US put their faith in Biden, the man cheer leading the Chinese for decades as our jobs went to China? 

You should look for a Third Party. You remind me of a Third Party kind of guy.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on May 21, 2020, 02:39:34 PM
"The apocalypse is not going to happen."

what?
silly me, here I am thinking the apocalypse is actually ALREADY WELL underway
and that we are currently only about 3 months into the 5-7 year period which ends with the TOTAL collapse of the USA
if you are alive next year at this time, it will be abundantly clear to you by then
so your judgement is just a wee bit premature

corrupt democrats - cuz Trump called them that, what other evidence do YOU need, right?
this whole thing of rednecks loving them some Trump just blows my mind




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 21, 2020, 03:37:40 PM
corrupt democrats - cuz Trump called them that, what other evidence do YOU need, right?
this whole thing of rednecks loving them some Trump just blows my mind

Mr. Apocalypse,

You can have the last word.  I prefer to read about positive developments than argue with a telephone pole (i. e., you).   

Do you know around the globe there are over 100 different COVID-19 vaccines  in some state of R&D?   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on May 21, 2020, 04:53:37 PM
Somewhere over the rainbow
Way up high
vaccines are being developed
my oh my...
and work really will make you free-eeeee
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 21, 2020, 10:12:57 PM
PROMISING NEWS ON SECOND VACCINE

Three days ago Moderna released human test data showing very promising news in developing a vaccine, and the stock market jumped up.  Today comes promising news on a second vaccine that is now in Phase 2 trials with two Phase 3 trials planned to commence soon:


Moderna may turn out to be a big phony although their stock is skyrocketing. Moderna got $483 million from the federal government to work on vaccines. They been in business only 10 years and regularly put out good news and the good work they're doing by press release which helps boost their stock. They've never in their history created a vaccine or therapeutic drug that's been approved for anything.

http://www.yahoo.com/gma/science-press-release-sudden-rise-vaccine-developer-moderna-193102158--abc-news-topstories.html

Here's what they're working on. Only a few things of theirs made it to phase two and nothing of theirs ever made it to phase three.

http://www.modernatx.com/pipeline
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 22, 2020, 07:50:09 AM
Moderna may turn out to be a big phony although their stock is skyrocketing.

I am not sure of your point. 

Many biotechs are in the same situation as Moderna, nothing but promise.  Unlike "wildcatters" of the  mid-20th Century, the promise of these companies is supported by science.  Part of the slow development results from the complex, methodical and measured regulatory environment.

If you are saying this vaccine has a way to go before being ready for mass use, you are correct.

If you are saying this vaccine will never be proven safe and effective, you should use your pharmaceutical brilliance to consult for biotechs to help them decide which medicines they should pursue.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 22, 2020, 08:15:22 AM
I am not sure of your point. 

Many biotechs are in the same situation as Moderna, nothing but promise. 


There are biotech companies that put out vaccines every year, especially for the flu. They don't press release the good news of their vaccines that haven't even made it to the market because they know most attempts at creating vaccines fail.


If you are saying this vaccine will never be proven safe and effective, you should use your pharmaceutical brilliance to consult for biotechs to help them decide which medicines they should pursue.     


I'm saying don't bet on a new guy who's never won a race to win the race of the century. If anybody invested in Moderna, dump the stock before the winner is determined.

When it comes to vaccines being safe and effective, the overwhelming majority invented are not safe and effective and are discarded. Even the majority vaccines given to people because they're deemed safe are not effective. The yearly flu vaccine is often less than 50% effective.

http://www.insider.com/how-effective-is-the-flu-shot
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 22, 2020, 12:11:57 PM
There are biotech companies ....

You don't understand biotech.  You are not alone. 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on May 23, 2020, 02:27:28 AM
You don't understand biotech.  You are not alone.
While I  hav not looked in to this, BillyB has a point. There are still a number of companies getting nvestment on bad science and empty promises. It would not be strange to see one of these bubble companies jump on to the current need.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 26, 2020, 02:23:32 PM
While I  hav not looked in to this, BillyB has a point. There are still a number of companies getting nvestment on bad science and empty promises. It would not be strange to see one of these bubble companies jump on to the current need.

For sure, biotech is mostly composed of speculative stocks other than companies such as Amgen (AMGN). 

Billy evidently chooses not to speculate at all, and that would probably be considered prudent by his accountant.    Nor would I criticize it.  Each person has their own risk tolerance for investing.  At Billy's age, IMO he should have no more than 10% of his stock portfolio invested in speculative stocks, and biotech is only one choice.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 26, 2020, 02:32:19 PM
Speaking of drugs,  the giant pharma company Merck (MRK) today announced progress on developing three new drugs.  Two are vaccines, and the third is an antiviral therapeutic. 

The Phase 1 human trials are expected to start soon for the vaccines, meaning they would not be ready until well into 2021  if the clinical tests had successful results.  Both vaccines are based on prior approved platforms. 

The therapeutic could happen sooner, and its purpose would be to prevent the COV from replicating. 

There are many other vaccines being developed besides these and the two I mentioned earlier.   Observers feel fairly confident that  at least one will eventually prove effective and safe.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 26, 2020, 05:20:01 PM
  At Billy's age, IMO he should have no more than 10% of his stock portfolio invested in speculative stocks, and biotech is only one choice.   

The last time I dealt with a portfolio was in school! Here's what I'm investing in now. Although construction is slow, my other business sells computers on the internet and sales are up a whopping 857% from the same period a year ago. In the last couple of months, most of my product was sent to NY. They must've been really locked down and bored. Michigan and Florida are two other States I ship a lot to. The last two weeks I've seen orders jump bigly from American territories  Puerto Rico, Guam and America Samoa. Did they just recently get their stimulus check because when those living in the USA got their, sales took off so I'm assuming they got their late. So right now all my money is going into buying more product because I can sell them as fast as I build them. Most of the parts I need to build comes from China. China tries to imply business and life is back to normal but not true. There's only 15% of the product available to me right now compared to what they had available in January. That tells me a lot of factories still aren't functioning. But my biggest investment is my wife. Paying for her education so she can grow her mind will make her a better person and bring in the big bucks.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on May 26, 2020, 07:28:23 PM
Billy, now can you compete with giants like Dell ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 26, 2020, 10:27:51 PM

Who's Dell? I'm still a long way off from the big boys.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 05, 2020, 12:17:02 PM
Update on Development of Vaccines

The pandemic will likely continue to threaten public health  until a vaccine is developed and administered around the globe.  Many pharmaceutical companies are planning if not already conducting clinical trials to determine the safety and efficacy of a number of promising vaccine candidates.  Trump administration's Operation Warp Speed will announce its selection of five vaccines for major government funding under Operation Warp Speed. 

The companies named by the NY Times include:

  -  Moderna (MRNA)

  -  partnership between Oxford University and AstraZeneca (AZ)

  -  Johnson & Johnson (JNJ)

  -  Merck (MRK) 

  -  Pfizer (PFE)


The speed at which this is advancing is remarkable and shows the importance of the administration's focused effort to address the pandemic.   What normally takes years and years could have a vaccine ready for the public in less than a year. 

Part of the funding will support manufacturing millions of doses before final determination of the safety and efficacy of the drugs.   

GlaxoSmithKline (GSK), Sanofi (SNY) and other companies currently researching vaccines did not receive Operation Warp Speed support, yet may continue research programs.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 05, 2020, 12:42:52 PM
One question about a new vaccine is how long will the immunity last. 

A NIH Director's blog yesterday examined that question, citing  Dr. Norman “Ned” Sharpless, Director of NIH’s National Cancer Institute (NCI).  Dr. Sharpless is an expert on antibody testing for COVID-19.

Quote
There have been some reports of people getting reinfected with covid-19, but Sharpless said that's still a topic generating questions in the health community. It's possible that those people never fully recovered the first time, he said, “or it may be that they got reinfected.”   In either case, Sharpless said it's “a pretty rare event, if it happens at all.”
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 09, 2020, 05:07:06 AM
IMPORTANT NEWS ABOUT COVID TRANSMISSION PATHWAYS

WHO announced new findings yesterday about COVID-19.  The US and world in large have been combating the disease under the assumption that asymptomatic cases are infectious.    Yesterday, WHO announced its research findings that asymptomatic transmission is rare. 

Maria D. Van Kerkhove  is an infectious disease epidemiologist.  She heads WHO's emerging diseases and zoonosis unit.  More important, she is the technical lead of WHO's COVID-19 response.   Yesterday, she said:

Quote
From the data we have, it still seems to be rare that an asymptomatic person actually transmits onward to a secondary individual.

We have a number of reports from countries who are doing very detailed contact tracing. They're following asymptomatic cases, they're following contacts and they're not finding secondary transmission onward. It is very rare....

This changes much.  Lockdowns were important at the start to focus the public thinking.  However, they were continued because of the belief of asymptomatic transmission.  The new finding shows that continued that lockdowns are not as important as we first thought. 

We now know what to do next time.  Instead of long lockdowns, we need to 1) ban travel, 2) implement a brief lockdown, 3) make masks mandatory,  4) implement a massive program of measuring in public body temperature of everyone, and 5) detain elevated cases for isolation, testing and observation.   Yes, the program seen in China. 

Would Americans accept Number 5 above?     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 09, 2020, 05:36:13 AM
Gator,

is 'brief lockdown' defined?

Lets take into consideration that asymptomatic transmission is 'rare'.  Does 'asymptomatic' also mean the period before the infection symptoms appear of is it those that do not have any symptoms at all?

Even if we disregard either of the above, we're still talking a period of around 45 days considering 3 'generations'.

By generation, one would have to calculate the days a person is infective to others, take 15 days which could have already infected the next generation of 15 days.  Adding a third-generation should allow both prior to dwindle and if lockdown is effective the virus should subside.

Despite a rather severe lockdown, some new infections are being reported daily here, now down to a couple hundred or less daily, but which I believe is a manageable level.  Our travel restrictions have eased now but we're talking 90 days from our national lockdown on 10 April.

That's about as 'brief' as I could imagine the scenario.  And lockdowns remain a very important part of the plan.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 09, 2020, 06:08:38 AM
Gator,

is 'brief lockdown' defined?

No, that's my Monday morning quarterback thought .

A lockdown must be long enough to 1) convince the public to take precautions and 2) muster the resources for mass measurement of body temperature.  Measuring body temperature is moot without detention of apparent cases.  And detention could be long without full-scale laboratory testing for the virus (such was the situation for the US).

Maybe in the future we are more preemptive about banning travel and having rolling lockdowns as a new virus spreads.     

Quote
... we're talking 90 days from our national lockdown on 10 April.

That's about as 'brief' as I could imagine the scenario.  And lockdowns remain a very important part of the plan.

It seems too long because of the disruption of the economy and the adverse health side effects of a lockdown.  Isolation of the infected rather than the healthy should be the goal. 

People much smarter than us (or at least me)  will be jawing about this over the coming months.  You and I both agree we must be better prepared for the next one.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 09, 2020, 07:58:23 AM
  Instead of long lockdowns, we need to 1) ban travel, 2) implement a brief lockdown, 3) make masks mandatory,  4) implement a massive program of measuring in public body temperature of everyone, and 5) detain elevated cases for isolation, testing and observation.   Yes, the program seen in China. 

Would Americans accept Number 5 above?   

 asymptomatic transmission is probably rare since those people don't sneeze, cough, and wipe runny noses often which spreads the virus on everything they touch.

American's are already accepting Number 5. Hotels in my area have been bought and are housing those people. Nobody complaining since they qualify for unemployment insurance. I disagree with the travel ban. Once the virus in in country, it can't be stopped. Just ban travel to countries experiencing outbreaks. If Italy has as much percentage of their population infected as America, it shouldn't matter if citizens travel between nations. There will always be a risk of getting infected at home or elsewhere.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 09, 2020, 09:02:57 AM
IMPORTANT NEWS ABOUT COVID TRANSMISSION PATHWAYS

WHO announced new findings yesterday about COVID-19.  The US and world in large have been combating the disease under the assumption that asymptomatic cases are infectious.    Yesterday, WHO announced its research findings that asymptomatic transmission is rare....

OY! Here we go again...whatever happened to all those r-naught calculation/projection?

You have to wonder how much of the things we've been inundated with on TV these past two weeks influenced this *new findings* report? I mean, can they really claim anything contrary to what they just came out with?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 13, 2020, 07:45:18 AM
Nuts! I’m on the fence about this situation. At this point and time, I’m not sure of the validity of this report. I am posting two videos. First, an interview with Erin, a traveling nurse from Florida turned journalist, who turned in some pretty damning video implicating NY’s Elmhurst Hospital of wrong-doings during the darkest days of COVID.

Next video is by someone demonizing Erin for fraud.

Internet is starting to be flooded with negative reporting about this nurse. You be the judge. Erin said in her video towards the end, “I’ve nothing to gain, and everything to lose by doing this”.

http://youtu.be/UIDsKdeFOmQ

http://youtu.be/w4gGxRlzoKI
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 13, 2020, 09:58:19 AM
Erin,


How many of the tens of thousands of medical workers in NY agree with her? I didn't have time to watch the video but I did see part of the short video criticizing her. She's a journalist. She left Florida to get a story in NY. It would be a shame is she came back and didn't have a story to tell.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: calmissile on June 13, 2020, 03:18:08 PM
Nuts! I’m on the fence about this situation. At this point and time, I’m not sure of the validity of this report. I am posting two videos. First, an interview with Erin, a traveling nurse from Florida turned journalist, who turned in some pretty damning video implicating NY’s Elmhurst Hospital of wrong-doings during the darkest days of COVID.

Next video is by someone demonizing Erin for fraud.

Internet is starting to be flooded with negative reporting about this nurse. You be the judge. Erin said in her video towards the end, “I’ve nothing to gain, and everything to lose by doing this”.



This nurses story is compelling.  With an open mind I tried to evaluate her story and those she recorded.  I also tried to evaluate this blogger that is trying to discredit her.  Wasn't very successful in being able to evaluate the material from her detractors.

I was hoping to find a friend that is an RN to get an opinion from, but none of them have the level of experience or training that Erin has.  So, not being a doctor or nurse myself I have to form an opinion based on the reports themselves, suspected motives, and personal experience with doctors over my lifetime as well as having a live in girlfriend nurse for over 10 years.

1.  I never put much credibility in anonymous sources.  It is easy to push agendas and lie when you cannot be identified!
2.  My personal experience with doctors as well as stories from my former girlfriend does not suggest that Erin's story is not credible.
3.  This doctor/blogger character seems to me more like someone that is pushing an agenda that is either covering up actions taken at this hospital and it's staff, or perhaps supporting the position of the official positions of the medical profession. 
4.  Erin's statements about the use of HCQ for early treatment no doubt created a lot of enemies within the medical community.  Her personal experience at her former hospital in Florida cited actual statistics in the number of successful treatments and not a single death.  That is compelling to me.  She also quoted other doctors worldwide as well as some preliminary studies that have indicated that HCQ and Zinc have shown to be successful.  Some of the doctors she recorded rejected the use of HCQ flippantly without any reasoning behind their opinion.  I suspect that if Trump had not mentioned the use of it, there would not be the opposition we are seeing.  There is enough anecdotal evidence from doctors using it to at least have a more open mind about it.
5.  I could not find anything in the rebuttal that actually refutes the medical terms and procedures she reported on.

So, not being a medical professional it is impossible for me to make a technical evaluation of the report(s).  As a result, I have to form an opinion based on the cast of characters.  My initial inclination is to believe Erin's story but am open to see if her story is mostly BS.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 13, 2020, 06:54:12 PM
I’m lean more on Erin’s side. After all, she does have both audio and video proofs to support her charges.

There have been noises before that deaths being counted as covid are actually not because of covid. This even goes deeper into that matter.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 13, 2020, 07:42:36 PM

Western nations tend to be more honest than other nations. The counting of deaths due to the coronavirus is more of a mess due to under reporting and manipulation of the numbers keeping deaths artificially low. Many people who died in their homes may have not been counted.

When this is over, if it'll ever be over, those in charge of counting will figure out the average deaths the World has endured the past few years and predict what the average deaths of the World should be in 2020 without Covid-19. Then they can estimate how many deaths we should've expected. India and China account for a third of the world's population but hardly have any deaths. Case fatality rate of Western numbers are closer to reality.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on June 15, 2020, 06:10:26 AM
Western nations tend to be more honest than other nations. 
Western nations like the US used to be good at creating excuses and narratives.  Nowadays very few believe us outside the country and even within.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on June 16, 2020, 11:45:56 AM
Western nations like the US used to be good at creating excuses and narratives.  Nowadays very few believe us outside the country and even within.

Fathertime!

America hater broken record, you have become a total bore
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on June 16, 2020, 12:14:57 PM
(http://cdn.creators.com/210/280608/280608_image.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 17, 2020, 06:55:50 AM
US NURSING HOMES ACCOUNT FOR 50,000 COVID DEATHS

115,000 Americans have died from COVID-19.  43% of those occurred in long-term care facilities (nursing homes, assisted living), even though the total number of people housed there represents only about 1% of the nation's population. 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/coronavirus-deaths-in-u-s-nursing-long-term-care-facilities-top-50-000-11592306919

Just five states account for 40% of the 50,000 deaths:  NY, NJ, CA, PA, and MI.  It seems these states did not follow fully the CMS (medicare) COVID guidance.   NY State, for example, required nursing home residents testing positive but not needing hospitalization to be returned to their nursing homes even though capacity for isolation and care was lacking. 

The nursing home population is obviously vulnerable, and the elderly are deemed the most susceptible to fatal levels of infection.   Nursing homes deaths were likely high in all 50 states, yet it seems 45 states did their best.
 Litigation attorneys must be very busy in these states. 



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 17, 2020, 08:59:54 AM
You would think both Florida and Arizona would be on top of that list since those two are at the top of the list of preference for retired folks and affordable care homes.

However, I'm mystified about California being on the list. So far the death count is at 5,100. With nearly 3 million tested, a little over 5% tested positive, 153K. Of that number 9,500 (dead + currently hospitalized) represents 6.2%, of which (currently) 1,272 is in Intensive Care.

http://covidtracking.com/data

If, for the exercise, I used WSJ's estimate of '43%' (57% for the greater population) across the board - nearly a month (3 weeks) since the strict lockdown lifting - with all the social protests going about the entire state - COVID doesn't seem as virulent to the greater population as initially declared. In hindsight, it hardly justifies total shutdown of our state.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 17, 2020, 09:34:41 AM
115,000 Americans have died from COVID-19.  43% of those occurred in long-term care facilities (nursing homes, assisted living), even though the total number of people housed there represents only about 1% of the nation's population. 


We will all get old eventually with weakened immune systems. Early reports say the coronavirus reduces the average human lifespan by 11-12 years which is what the Spanish flu achieved. Lets hope we get lifetime immunity or a vaccine is created.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 17, 2020, 01:38:27 PM
You would think both Florida and Arizona would be on top of that list since those two are at the top of the list of preference for retired folks and affordable care homes.

The top 5 sates came in an interview with Congressman Steve Scalise (R-La.).   


Quote
However, I'm mystified about California being on the list. So far the death count is at 5,100. With nearly 3 million tested, a little over 5% tested positive, 153K. Of that number 9,500 (dead + currently hospitalized) represents 6.2%, of which (currently) 1,272 is in Intensive Care.



The types of information reported varies by each state.     AARP lists what each state is reporting.   http://www.aarp.org/caregiving/health/info-2020/coronavirus-nursing-home-cases-deaths.html

[You don't know about websites for seniors.   :D ]

California reports its stats here:

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID/DCDC/Pages/COVID-19/SNFsCOVID_19.aspx

The source reports 2,154 "COVID-related resident deaths" for 1,223 "skilled nursing facilities."  Another site says California has a cumulative total of 5,089 COVID deaths.    Thus nursing facilities account for 42% of the deaths, virtually the same as the national average.  Thus, California makes the list merely because of its large population. 



Quote
COVID doesn't seem as virulent to the greater population as initially declared.

Same here.  Florida is experiencing fewer deaths even though the rate of new cases is increasing. 


Quote
In hindsight, it hardly justifies total shutdown of our state.

The shutdown was to assure the pandemic would not exceed the capacity of the healthcare system.  We erred on the side of caution.

Today is different.   The US has abundant reserves of PPE and a surplus of ventilators.  We also know the ICU of hospitals will most likely suffice, and if exceeded, we can set up temporary hospitals quickly.   Testing capacity has been increased, so we can monitor closely the trajectory of the infection.   

The risk of infection is about the same as it was last April.   However, there is no need to shutdown again.   It is now in the hands of the public to take proper mitigation measures.  If not, they increase the risk of becoming infection.   

I don't know when I will get on an airplane again.  Certainly not this summer.   We have one trip planned to the North Carolina mountains, driving there and staying at an Airbnb rental.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on June 17, 2020, 02:16:57 PM

The risk of infection is about the same as it was last April.   However, there is no need to shutdown again.   It is now in the hands of the public to take proper mitigation measures.  If not, they increase the risk of becoming infection.   


The 'public' can't be trusted ..

1/ They gather in Church and most of the congregation are surprised when they get ill

2/ The go to an Irish bar - the first night it re-opens and ( 'surprise') a group of 15 friends find 10 are ill and a sizeable proportion of the 49 staff

The ONLY reason your hospitals ( mostly) coped is BECAUSE you locked down

Beijing has an 'issue' and draconian remedies were enacted ..

Let's see how 'wise' your words sound in a couple of months time .. I hope you're right, but the main issue is opening up, too soon.





Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 17, 2020, 05:17:39 PM
'PONDERINGS' ABOUT RE-OPENING THE ECONOMY AMID GROWING CASES OF COVID

I read Jim Jubak, a financial journalist.  Today he penned his thoughts about the unknown territory we venture into as we reopen the economy.   I pass it along.

________________________________________________________________________

"I’m as much in favor of reality as the next guy. Maybe more so. And during the coronavirus pandemic and the current economic re-opening I’ve been scarfing up every bit of data that I can. I begin my day by digging into the latest news of cases n Arizona, Texas, and Florida. And then dive deep down the rabbit hole to see how the data is being collected and what the “process” might mean.

But I increasingly question the utility of that effort when it comes to figuring out how the re-opening of the economy might be going and what the effect on stock prices might be.

Instead I’ve started to try to adapt a version of “early adopter” analysis from the tech world to the re-opening dynamic.

So today, for example, I got data on cases from Oklahoma–which registered another record for single-day new cases–California–which set another record in its rolling average–and North Carolina–where the average dropped by one case to break a streak of 15 new highs in a row.

I dug up anecdotal information from Facebook on the temporary closure of the R&J Saloon in San Antonio for a deep clean after a customer tested positive for the coronavirus. Another Facebook post from Taste of Texas in Houston announced that it had closed temporarily “out of an abundance of caution due to a positive Covid-19 test by a team member.”

Most interesting to me–and my new way of thinking about the re-opening economy–was news out of Jacksonville Beach that Lynch’s Irish Pub had closed after 16 friends who had visited the pub on June 6 became infected with the virus and that the pub had then tested employees and seven tests came back positive. The pub then closed for a deep clean. But it’s the next part that really intrigued me: The pub re-opened on Tuesday after that deep clean. And this pub wasn’t an isolated instance–other restaurants in the area had also closed for cleaning and then re-opened. (What I don’t know is how business has been at the pub since the infections and the re-opening.)

Any attempt to fit this last anecdote into a model of the re-opening that assumes that behaviors are driven by data is likely to lead us far astray.

A better fit is something like the “early adopter” model from technology that organizes consumer behavior into tiers. There’s a tier of consumers that will rush out to buy the latest smartphone just to have the latest phone. There’s another tier of consumers that will seek out information and then decide to buy. Near the end of the buying line stands the vast mass of consumers who will decide to buy or not depending on what they’ve heard; what they’ve read; their own experience with friends who bought; and their own feeling, developed over time, about whether they have to have it or not. It’s this last big group of consumers that ultimately determines how successful a product is in the longer run.

Looking at the re-opening economy so far what we can see is the behavior of an early adopter group. They’re headed to bars and restaurants, to beaches, to church services, based on a range of factors that includes political ideology, age (and the conviction I’ve heard from some that the odds of getting the virus are really low because they are young), fatigue with the local version of lock down, etc.

It’s pretty clear that this group of early adopters doesn’t represent everyone in the population–although we don’t know how big or little this group might be. It doesn’t take a huge percentage of the bar-going cohort in New York City, for example, to produce jammed streets outside popular bars.

What the technology early adopter model tells us is the the next stage in re-opening the economy will come from “reviews” of that early adopter experience. Was Disney World fun with the new rules or not? Was going out to a beach restaurant scary?

And possibly most important of all, at this stage, do you know anyone who got infected? The evidence suggests that more than any official public health data and even more than political conviction, the key factor n determining how you react to the re-opening is whether or not you know anyone who got sick (and maybe had to be hospitalized.) Consider that the ultimate “user” review.

What we don’t know right now about the re-opening economy is how many people will read those “reviews” and decide to eat out, fly, visit a resort, book a hotel room. And what “reviews” they might need to see to decide to adopt a new consumer behavior. What, for example, do you need to see in terms of reviews to decide to fly?

At the moment, we’re in the middle of a war of reviews where the state of opinion is exceedingly mixed. Politicians like Governor Glen Abbott of Texas and Vice-President Mike Pence are saying Go out because everything’s fine. Other governors and public health officials are saying “Hey, it’s not all that safe out there. And we really need you to continue to damp the curve.”

It’s good to dig deep into the data to see what the numbers might really mean–“reality” does ultimately count and if people get sick at some point, in reality, they overwhelm hospitals–but I think it’s important to realize that behavior at this point in the re-opening economy depends on what the next wave of consumers decide on the basis of reviews from those early adopters.

Here’s what some of those Jacksonville Beach friends who got sick told Cuomo Prime Time on CNN:  The pub was packed with other celebrants who weren’t wearing masks, Erika Crisp told CNN’s Chris Cuomo on “Cuomo Prime Time” on Tuesday. “At the time, it was more out of sight, out of mind. We hadn’t known anybody who had it personally. Governor, mayor, everybody says it’s fine,” she said , adding that her friends showed symptoms within days of the outing. “It was a mistake. I feel foolish. It’s too soon.” Another friend, Kat Layton, who lost her sense of smell, said she knew she and her friends “were pushing it” by being out that night. She warned viewers that the current state of the pandemic is not ready for such gatherings and that the coronavirus is still very much present.

It’s important to realize that those are just two reviews from early adopters and that they are be no means determinant.

But I think that the next stage in the re-opening economy will be set by reviewers like those. Very few of us (and lots of reporters and Wall Street analysts are) are spending our days wallowing in the ins and outs of Florida’s screwy coronavirus reporting system, for example. But we do hear reviewers like those and the closer they are to us personally the more power they will have.

All of which doesn’t make it exactly easy to tell which way the re-opening is going and how fast. We’re trying to figure out not what the data says but what the reaction to that data as consumed by individuals might be. But it at least tells us what to look at."

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 17, 2020, 08:11:51 PM
Gator,

Quote
We’re trying to figure out not what the data says but what the reaction to that data as consumed by individuals might be. But it at least tells us what to look at.

This is nothing more than another attempt to rationalize the problem away, to continue deceiving ourselves with 'early adopters' as our canaries.

If this virus worked just a bit differently, we would 'see' and react much differently.  What if the virus resulted in death one day after exposure whilst maintaining all other factors the same Rt and mortality.  Do you think folks would react differently, and how?

Remember nothing changed, the same amount of deaths, the same risk of infection, -just that the effect was almost immediately felt.

I think most folks would be scared shitless today, still hunkering down voluntarily talking about those stupid folks that are wandering the streets, bars, restaurants, rallies, protests and cinemas.  But alas, we are being lured voluntarily into ignoring the consequences of our actions.

The really deadly part of this virus is that it gives us the chance to bend reality in its favour.  The virus is not that deadly, it is our response or lack thereof that is deadly.  Our own ignorance kills us, not the virus.

A few short months ago, most posters here were aghast at the numbers of dead being reported in Italy.  Heck, the whole world was, giving Italy a big fat red F on the report card. But in the end, despite all our action and inaction, we will be no better off in the US.  Now, we are facing the reality that deaths per million in the US will be the same as Italy or more.

Why is it that with the exact same result, instead of accepting a big red fat F on our report card we now insist on fooling ourselves that it ain't that bad, that those old folks were gonna die anyway, that the virus is not that infectious, that despite increasing numbers of infections we can go back to business as usual.

Please try and help me understand where and why we went so awry, today touting our obvious failure as success.



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on June 18, 2020, 04:18:12 PM
Our own ignorance kills us, not the virus.

Please try and help me understand where and why we went so awry, today touting our obvious failure as success.

We aren't going to abandon capitalism and adopt socialism.
The Socialists and their ineptitude were just as stupid as
various capitalists.

The Left are responsible for just as many deaths as anybody on
the right. Go back and read your last posts, you write as if only
you aren't clueless.

Nobody knows what's going on or what the future will bring that
includes you.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 18, 2020, 07:34:38 PM
Gator,

This is nothing more than another attempt to rationalize the problem away, to continue deceiving ourselves with 'early adopters' as our canaries.

As an investor, Jim Jubak was not trying to rationalize away the problem.  He was attempting to understand how the public and the government will respond,  and he then will move money accordingly.   Early this year  he hedged with puts and shorts as the market declined.   Now it is more about selecting the correct sectors and staying nimble because things could change quickly as the second wave builds against the reopening movement.   

As Bill posted to you, "Nobody knows what's going on or what the future will bring that
includes you."   There is deep uncertainty everywhere. 

Quote
If this virus worked just a bit differently, we would 'see' and react much differently.  What if the virus resulted in death one day after exposure whilst maintaining all other factors the same Rt and mortality.  Do you think folks would react differently, and how?

Whether quick or delayed, death is death.  The common attitude in my circles is an acceptance that this virus will be here until a vaccine is developed.... some time away.  Most people are adhering to the mitigation measures yet venture out of the home for work, necessities and relaxation. 


Quote
...despite increasing numbers of infections we can go back to business as usual.

Not me,  Not most.


Quote
Please try and help me understand where and why we went so awry, today touting our obvious failure as success.

Success, no.  COVID is a killer, and it still preys amongst us.     Yet, we see progress on many fronts in medical science, government, and everyday life as we reopen step by step.   Any "success" is more like a sense of relief that the pandemic is not the apocalypse envisioned by krimster.  However, no one is thinking life will be normal anytime soon.   

What did you think of Jubak's comment,  "...the key factor n determining how you react to the re-opening is whether or not you know anyone who got sick."  I imagine all of us will eventually know someone got sick.  I have already.  She died. 

Today while golfing we got the news that a country club a few miles away is closed - no employees, no members.  An employee became  very ill.  That news cause us to wince. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 19, 2020, 12:19:21 AM
Gator,

Quote
What did you think of Jubak's comment,  "...the key factor n determining how you react to the re-opening is whether or not you know anyone who got sick."  I imagine all of us will eventually know someone got sick.  I have already.  She died.

Sorry to hear that Gator.  Indeed fear is a big factor in fighting the virus, a healthy fear though.

(http://i.postimg.cc/kXjFjYgr/Screen-Shot-2020-06-19-at-07-03-02.png)

Now, this is exponentially scary and I do fear for you all in FL and some other states.  Although I know you and your family have been careful, maybe time to increase your level of awareness and precaution.

I consider things here very much 'under control', although I do see many more disregarding some precautions. It's pretty much back to business with very low risk for the moment.  For those at most risk with preconditions etc, at least down here chances of dying from influenza are likely more than dying from Covid.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 19, 2020, 05:34:05 PM

Now, this is exponentially scary and I do fear for you all in FL and some other states.  Although I know you and your family have been careful, maybe time to increase your level of awareness and precaution.


I delayed responding pending today's report.  The number of new cases continues to accelerate.    A few of our city's pro hockey players have tested positive.  Reporters suggest most of the new infections occur in the under-40 group; however, this may be more opinion than factual because data are not disaggregated sufficiently to determine such. 

City government is becoming more restrictive, e. g., masks are mandatory inside all business establishments rather than some.    Not exponential growth, or at least the exponent is a small number for now.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 19, 2020, 07:32:55 PM



Apparently the 90+ degree weather in Florida isn't slowing the virus.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on June 19, 2020, 10:43:50 PM


The Left are responsible for just as many deaths as anybody on
the right.

That might not be the wisest point on which to declare your opponent clueless, Beel !

Fascists are right of most people's centre and they started WWII ..  Or are you now you excluding wars in you deaths 'stats' ?

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 20, 2020, 03:58:42 AM
Not exponential growth, or at least the exponent is a small number for now.   

Just remember what we see in the charts today is the evidence of what started a couple of weeks ago.  We could well already be in a period of exponential growth.  Unfortunately by the time we realize such it will be too late to react as the damage will have been done and again we are left to deal with the aftermath.

Over here, we would already be back in hard lockdown.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on June 20, 2020, 04:15:55 AM
..and Beel would respond that's the 'socialist way' of dealing with things and need to be educated as to the make up of the Italian govt ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 20, 2020, 05:33:04 AM
Nobody knows what's going on or what the future will bring that
includes you.

One can, however, make educated guesses based on the facts and past experiences in hand.  Anything less leans toward denial.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 20, 2020, 05:49:16 AM
..and Beel would respond that's the 'socialist way' of dealing with things.

Misuse of the word socialist of late means anything I don't like or want to hear, too often used by some fringe wavelengths of the political spectrum.  It is a meaningless label, and I tend to ignore it.

As far as economic theories go, via the Fed, the US may well be one of the most socialist countries on the planet right now with large stakes in many private companies, banks, stocks and bonds.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on June 20, 2020, 05:51:08 AM

As far as economic theories go, via the Fed, the US may well be one of the most socialist countries on the planet right now with large stakes in many private companies, banks, stocks and bonds.

Same in the UK, this pandemic has changed the game ..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 20, 2020, 08:38:40 AM
One can, however, make educated guesses based on the facts and past experiences in hand.  Anything less leans toward denial.

We are talking about actual and current ‘in the field’ experience to generate factual information, and not one derived from Googling the internet from selective media outlet to make up your ‘truths over facts.

But the funny thing about your post is, educated guess is a result of information not rooted on facts, otherwise it would be conclusive. But from your POV, you’re confined to just guessing as you’re much too far removed both from geography and actual events to generate your version of ‘facts’.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 20, 2020, 08:53:08 AM
You're certainly entitled to your opinion GQ.  I'm not gonna try and take that away from you.

Let's check back towards the end of the year and see who has been closer to the actual results before throwing hissy fits.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 20, 2020, 04:07:13 PM
Just remember what we see in the charts today is the evidence of what started a couple of weeks ago. 

This second wave in Florida had its start with the reopening, with Phase One starting in early May in some counties and all counties by May 18 (Miami area being last).   In 1 to  1-1/2 months, it seems to have again reached community spread level.   Today we set another record for positive tests.   


Quote
We could well already be in a period of exponential growth.  Unfortunately by the time we realize such it will be too late to react as the damage will have been done and again we are left to deal with the aftermath.

Not certain the aftermath will be severe.  There are differences with the second wave.  Consider these three. 

1.  The median age of cases has lowered definitely.
 
The cumulative total of all cases in my county are distributed across age groups as follows:

Age Range             Percent of Total

0-4                                       2%
5-14                                     3%
15-24                                  16%
25-34                                  23%
35-44                                  16%
45-54                                  14%
55-64                                  11%
65-74                                    8%
75-84                                    5%
85+                                       3%


2.   More tested cases are asymptomatic.  Earlier testing required a threshold of symptoms; not so today.   

3. Hospitalizations are occurring at a lower rate.  My county is one of the five hardest hit counties in Florida, and we had 400 new cases today vs <100 two weeks ago; yet hospitalizations are only 50% higher.  (Yes, hospitalization stats lag testing stats).
 
Quote
Over here, we would already be back in hard lockdown.

American sense of freedom has trouble abiding with lockdowns.  And some Americans are choosing to place their lives at greater risk.  I just hope these risky  people don't exceed the capacity of our healthcare system in case my family needs it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on June 21, 2020, 12:51:52 AM
Sadly, what was bloomin' obvious is now happening in the US.. This second wave was predicted and 'mocked' by the boards 'experts in meds', too.. :wallbash:

It's not just Americans that have issues with being told what to do and restrictions on freedom.. what makes it REALLY difficult to Police is when 'leaders' and their 'advisors' break the rules and set the 'example'.

I am FURIOUS with those protesting about lives mattering and putting far more lives at risk ...

Get safe, Gator
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 21, 2020, 02:23:39 AM
This is all still very much the first wave. Maybe chapter 2 "Free again"...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 21, 2020, 09:42:53 AM
You're certainly entitled to your opinion GQ.  I'm not gonna try and take that away from you.

Let's check back towards the end of the year and see who has been closer to the actual results before throwing hissy fits.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blG0xOyVXlo
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Lily on June 24, 2020, 09:54:38 AM
Russian doctors say that the reason why the FSU countries are not that suffering from covid is because there are very few senior homes there. Russian seniors are generally staying with their families that take care of them.

Proud to be Russian, and a full time caregiver to my mother ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on June 24, 2020, 01:00:54 PM
..and Beel would respond that's the 'socialist way' of dealing with things and need to be educated as to the make up of the Italian govt ;)

Moby,

You should explain your opinion on things and let me respond with
mine. You have enough work defending your own positions to need
meddling with mine.

No, I would say that's the authoritarian or Statist way of doing things,
luckily we have a Constitutional Republic here and petty bureaucrats 
can't go around violating our constitutional rights.

Socialists seek to be authoritarians and in many case are authoritarians
but they are different things. No need to try to guess what my opinion
on a matter is, all you have to do is ask.

Udachi!

Bill
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on June 24, 2020, 01:06:46 PM
One can, however, make educated guesses based on the facts and past experiences in hand.  Anything less leans toward denial.

So am I wrong? You know how this is going to pan out? I am in denial
because I am probably not onboard with your solutions?

I am against throwing us into a world wide depression unless mankind's
existence at our current lifestyle is at stake.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 24, 2020, 01:40:57 PM
So am I wrong? You know how this is going to pan out? I am in denial
because I am probably not onboard with your solutions?

I am against throwing us into a world wide depression unless mankind's
existence at our current lifestyle is at stake.

(http://i.postimg.cc/YqXRHpLk/Screen-Shot-2020-06-24-at-22-37-49.png)
(http://i.postimg.cc/NfGDSyMp/Screen-Shot-2020-06-24-at-22-38-17.png)

You tell me 2Tall what is working and what is not...

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 24, 2020, 03:14:07 PM
Russian doctors say that the reason why the FSU countries are not that suffering from covid is because there are very few senior homes there. Russian seniors are generally staying with their families that take care of them.

Proud to be Russian, and a full time caregiver to my mother ;)


Anybody can transfer the disease to seniors whether its a worker or family visitor to a senior citizens home or at home. I would say the amount of Senior citizens per capita of Russia is lower than Italy's so Russia will see fewer senior citizens deaths simply because they have less per capita. Also there are different strains of SARS-COV2 and some are more deadly than others. Without a vaccine or immunity, we all will get old and we all may eventually succumb to COVID-19. Early estimates say it's taking 11-12 years off our lifespans.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 24, 2020, 03:42:12 PM

You tell me 2Tall what is working and what is not...

Many variables to consider besides morbidity.   

The actual total number of US cases of COVID-19 (tested and non-tested) now is believed by scientists to be about the same as in April.  The smaller number of tests in April meant many cases went undetected. 

The most important variable is "deaths."  Because of evolutionary progression, less fatal strains of the virus should be more dominant today.  Because deaths lag detection of infection,  the next 2 weeks are important to understand a) the trajectory of the spreading and b) whether case fatality rate is indeed lower as expected.     

Of course, another variable to consider is the economy, as the policy decisions involved tradeofs.     

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 24, 2020, 03:58:14 PM
Exactly. At the beginning of May, it is estimated 34,000 +/- non-COVID deaths (http://www.aei.org/op-eds/the-coronavirus-is-killing-thousands-so-is-the-lockdown/) was attributed due to the lockdown. 9 hours ago, another 10,000 cancer related deaths (http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/932858) is reported due to the delayed caused by the lockdown.

Of these two numbers, 44,000 non-COVID deaths, is more deaths than most other countries sustained with the virus.

Additionally, I'm not so sure comparing Italy vs the US is apples to apples. It's about as viable as comparing New York to Hawaii. It doesn't really 'mean' anything.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on June 24, 2020, 04:07:44 PM
Let's check back towards the end of the year and see who has
been closer to the actual results before throwing hissy fits.

Great Idea, why don't you make your prediction and others can make their
prediction(s) and we can check back and see who had the best insights
or luckiest guesses.

I started a thread here so predictions will be easier to find

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=post2;start=0;board=18
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on June 24, 2020, 04:32:30 PM
(http://i.postimg.cc/YqXRHpLk/Screen-Shot-2020-06-24-at-22-37-49.png)
(http://i.postimg.cc/NfGDSyMp/Screen-Shot-2020-06-24-at-22-38-17.png)

You tell me 2Tall what is working and what is not...

You look at one factor and it's really important, deaths and illness.
I am not trying to diminish that important data point. You are not
looking at the hit that it will put on the economy. Italy could freeze
all economic activity and kill their economy and save even more lives.

You are not considering what would happen if Italy ended up crippling
their economy for the next ten years because we don't know how bad,
how long or what the cost will be. 

If I had the answer I would come out and say it. I don't know the solution.
I don't have the proper mix or formulation of what the ideal response would
be. As of today there have been 124K US covid deaths.

I do know that the USA is currently having Great Depression level
unemployment and that we can't sustain that. If the US dollar crashes
the World economy will crash as well. The last Great Depression took
10 years then a world war costing 85 million lives to recover from.

I doubt that Covid has the same potential for harm.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 24, 2020, 04:47:32 PM

I do know that the USA is currently having Great Depression level
unemployment and that we can't sustain that.

From the Washington Post reporting IMF's Managing Director announcement  today:

Quote
No major economy is escaping the pandemic. The U.S. economy, the world’s largest, is expected to shrink this year by 8 percent. Countries that use the single European currency are headed for a decline of more than 10 percent while Japanese output will fall by 5.8 percent, the IMF said.

The Chinese economy, suffering the twin ravages of the pandemic and the trade war with the United States, is projected to eke out just a 1 percent gain — its worst performance in several decades.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 24, 2020, 10:31:55 PM
Many variables to consider besides morbidity.   

The actual total number of US cases of COVID-19 (tested and non-tested) now is believed by scientists to be about the same as in April.  The smaller number of tests in April meant many cases went undetected. 

The most important variable is "deaths."  Because of evolutionary progression, less fatal strains of the virus should be more dominant today.  Because deaths lag detection of infection,  the next 2 weeks are important to understand a) the trajectory of the spreading and b) whether case fatality rate is indeed lower as expected.     

Of course, another variable to consider is the economy, as the policy decisions involved tradeoffs.     
 

Gator,

Indeed many variables, lets look at some of them and recap the situation.

In Italy, most elderly live in their family homes.  Those requiring higher levels of support are in hospitals where general medicine wards are approx 60% elderly.  This is a minus as hospitals are great places for for community spread.

In Italy, greetings are close physical contact, cheek kissing between all genders and ages.  This is a big minus and grand spreader.

In Italy, the population is older than many other countries.  Another minus.

Italy was the first western nation experiencing high death rates from totally overwhelmed hospitals in the north.  We were not prepared nor had much time to react. A deficit with critical care beds, equipment, materials, 20-30% of doctors and healthcare workers infected.  A big minus.

Despite all these challenges, today we can say that the 45-day strict lockdown and 45 days of nationally planned and staged reopening among other mitigation efforts has been very effective, but resulting in 35,000, or 573 deaths per million. 

Today the risk of getting infected with COVID is very low and most aspects of life have very much returned to normal aside from simple mitigation mainly consisting of dwindling mask usage, disinfecting/washing hands and without typical kissing when greeting family and friends. 

The US on the other hand:

A very large elderly population in homes representing a big minus.

A younger population - a plus

Testing problems during the first months - a big minus.

Late and haphazard implementation of mitigation efforts along with no national policy - a big minus.

Healthcare capacity and time to set up additional capacity - a plus

Warning/preparation lead time - a huge plus

Vast economic resources - a huge plus


Despite huge and obvious advantages, the virus is very much 'alive and well' in the US.  Hastened, lapsed, and abandoned mitigation efforts are now leading to widespread infections on a greater scale than was experienced initially with a huge risk of truly unhindered exponential growth.

All this has resulted in 376 deaths per million, adding an average of 10 deaths per million per week with the potential for more.  By the end of the year, even without the growth, we are experiencing, the death per million rate will equal or exceed that of Italy.  As it stands today, by the end of the year we may well be looking at numbers of deaths exceeding 250,000.  Furthermore, economic recovery under these circumstances will take much longer, increasing in length until the magic bullet arrives and can be implemented.  Realistically speaking well into next year if not longer.

The major difference between Italy and the US lies with the priority set by each.  Italy prioritized beating the virus, and the US prioritized 'saving' the economy.

It is sad, that we in the US had the potential to knock out this virus cold, but did not do so.  We lost valuable time and ignored the valuable experience of others.  In very simple terms we put the cart before the horse and will suffer the consequences of more deaths per million than Italy we so highly criticized, and a much longer and deeper economic crisis.

It is difficult, even impossible to justify or rationalize the obviously lacking results to date - and those we will experience going forward.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 24, 2020, 10:34:08 PM
Great Idea, why don't you make your prediction and others can make their
prediction(s) and we can check back and see who had the best insights
or luckiest guesses.

I started a thread here so predictions will be easier to find

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=post2;start=0;board=18

Why start another thread?  I like killing two birds with one stone :)   But ok will look at it and copy my last post.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on June 24, 2020, 10:39:12 PM
Beel, if it's not too late to edit ..

Your link to your offshoot thread ( to me ) leads to a cul de sac

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 24, 2020, 10:42:51 PM
(http://i.postimg.cc/YqXRHpLk/Screen-Shot-2020-06-24-at-22-37-49.png)
(http://i.postimg.cc/NfGDSyMp/Screen-Shot-2020-06-24-at-22-38-17.png)


BC, America is like 50 nations. While NY had their outbreak, most of the rest of the States started theirs at a later time. The chart is going to remain flat for awhile. The key is that we never have an outbreak in any area that exceeds the health care capacity of that area. We can minimize deaths as long as we don't overload hospitals. Spread is going to happen. Deaths are going to happen. All that will continue to happen until we can rid this virus from our bodies.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 24, 2020, 10:49:45 PM
You look at one factor and it's really important, deaths and illness.
I am not trying to diminish that important data point. You are not
looking at the hit that it will put on the economy. Italy could freeze
all economic activity and kill their economy and save even more lives.

You are not considering what would happen if Italy ended up crippling
their economy for the next ten years because we don't know how bad,
how long or what the cost will be. 

Bottom line 2Tall is that Italy didn't need to do these things and beat the virus at it's own game, with good chances of surviving well until the time a magic bullet arrives, or even if it does not.

Quote
If I had the answer I would come out and say it. I don't know the solution.
I don't have the proper mix or formulation of what the ideal response would
be. As of today there have been 124K US covid deaths.

I do know that the USA is currently having Great Depression level
unemployment and that we can't sustain that. If the US dollar crashes
the World economy will crash as well. The last Great Depression took
10 years then a world war costing 85 million lives to recover from.

I doubt that Covid has the same potential for harm.

All a matter of priorities and planning 2Tall..  Our misguided priorities, piss poor planning and non-existent follow-through is not only killing more of us than our neighbours and peers but also prolonging economic recovery which raises risk of further economic destruction.  We had a huge economic crisis because folks could not pay their mortgages, is the outlook any better today?

We have and still have all the answers right in front of us, unfortunately, filtered by our rosy pink eyeglasses.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 24, 2020, 10:53:36 PM
The chart is going to remain flat for awhile.

The virus does not respect borders Billy, and the chart is rising, and will keep rising.  The only unknown factor is how far will it rise.  I expect 50k+ infections per day within 2 weeks.

Bottom line we're not doing anything about it and are allowing the virus to 'rule'.

[edit]  Expounding on this a bit and expanding the borders beyond just Italy with EU as more peer to peer comparison.  This despite 'disaster Italy', 'disaster Spain', 'disaster UK', 'disaster Belgium.. and on and on..

(http://i.postimg.cc/6QnQqtV7/Screen-Shot-2020-06-25-at-08-31-35.png)

Ok ok.... you say deaths count as well as infections (being preemptive here).  The US is well on the way to 'trump' EU deaths as well. Very 'SAD' on so many levels.

(http://i.postimg.cc/qqjFG6rN/Screen-Shot-2020-06-25-at-08-38-52.png)

http://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on June 24, 2020, 10:54:14 PM
BillyB, what part of that chart BC posted looks 'flat' to you ?

The US is spiking..the question you need to ask is WHY ?

*I*  suggest too many daft politicians have pushed too early for easing restrictions and a lot of people went onto the streets en masse, even earlier than BLM to protest at an unsuitable moment .

The UK saw an uptick in the seven day rolling average for deaths yesterday..  May be we'll have the same issue .. For sure, I see a lot of people seem to be behaving like this was over ...



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 24, 2020, 10:54:30 PM
Your link to your offshoot thread ( to me ) leads to a cul de sac

ditto
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 24, 2020, 11:25:44 PM
BillyB, what part of that chart BC posted looks 'flat' to you ?


From Apr. 4 to June 24. There's a few up and downs but it's pretty much flat.


The US is spiking..the question you need to ask is WHY ?


While NY and a few other states are on the downtrend, other states are on the uptrend so America's line will remain flat. Many states are allowing people to go back to work lifting the stay at home order and that will increase infections but as long as we don't exceed our health care capabilities, we'll be fine. Nations must go back to work. If they are bankrupt, there won't be money for health care and things will collapse. We're more educated now about the virus's behavior so we can better determine the fine line between working and staying at home. If a certain area is predicted to have an outbreak, they can order people in that area to stay at home again.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on June 25, 2020, 12:05:41 AM
I'm afraid this is yet another case of BillyB's 'patriotism' blinding himself to reality

Since 8th June your  'flat' curve has been on an upward trend re new infections ..USA as a whole..

Spin on ..



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 25, 2020, 12:19:45 AM

Here you go Moby

http://serc.carleton.edu/mathyouneed/graphing/bestfit.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on June 25, 2020, 12:25:24 AM
Indeed.. now try putting your info into practice from June 8th on my graph, or stop digging !
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on June 25, 2020, 06:50:07 AM
Covid will continue in USA and even rise due to absolute stupidity.

In adjoining county, 12 students who had graduated High School went on trip to Myrtle Beach and brought back Covid with them.  More than 12 had gone.

Those 12 then infected family and others, so within a week there were 30 new cases.

I think situations like this are ripe for lawsuits charging reckless behavior that led to injury to others (outside the families).
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on June 25, 2020, 09:19:57 AM
Why start another thread?  I like killing two birds with one stone :)   But ok will look at it and copy my last post.

This thread is 37 pages and your last post didn't lay out much in
predictions. This thread could go on to be many pages more and
finding what you predicted a year or more in the future would be
lost.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on June 25, 2020, 09:25:52 AM
Beel, if it's not too late to edit ..

Your link to your offshoot thread ( to me ) leads to a cul de sac

Yes, too late to edit and you are correct that my link lead to a
bridge to nowhere.

This link should work
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24421.0
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 25, 2020, 10:16:28 AM
Covid will continue in USA and even rise due to absolute stupidity.

In adjoining county, 12 students who had graduated High School went on trip to Myrtle Beach and brought back Covid with them.  More than 12 had gone.

Those 12 then infected family and others, so within a week there were 30 new cases.

I think situations like this are ripe for lawsuits charging reckless behavior that led to injury to others (outside the families).

12!?! What about the thousands of snowflakes that protested, rioted, looted and establish 'summer of love' zones along with the statue toppling squads all over the country?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on June 27, 2020, 03:02:06 PM
Bottom line 2Tall is that Italy didn't need to do these things and beat the virus at it's own game, with good chances of surviving well until the time a magic bullet arrives, or even if it does not.

I didn't know that CoronaV has been fixed. Bravo

All a matter of priorities and planning 2Tall..  Our misguided priorities, piss poor planning and non-existent follow-through is not only killing more of us than our neighbours and peers but also prolonging economic recovery which raises risk of further economic destruction. 

As with all things this heath crisis was planned for by the guys who
were in charge of the last health Crisis. You see governments aren't
nimble entities. They have to get funding from Congress years in
advance.

This crisis was planned for by team Obama and the people in place
are also from team Obama. Nobody knew what to expect and you
can tell by all the reports that change from day to day.

We had a huge economic crisis because folks could not pay their mortgages, is the outlook any better today?

We had a huge economic crisis because left wing groups like ACORN and
the Democrats forced Banks to loan money to people who couldn't repay
it and Weak Sisters like GW Bush didn't want to spend the political capital
to fix it before it crashed and burned.

Democrats like Jamie Gorelick,  got rich cooking the books at  Fannie Mae1,
just like she got rich cooking the books with the VA scandal2. Liberals don't
look to the actual problems of having corrupt lefty leaders in office, they tend
to blame capitalism instead.

Also don't forget that Gorelick was also the brainchild building a wall between
the FBI and the CIA that allowed 9-11 to happen3. Then in an
amazing bit of luck Gorelick was appointed on the 9/11 commission itself.

The problem with the left has always been corruption and incompetence
and then identifying or inventing the wrong boogeyman.


1. http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/washington-lawyer-who-bad-penny-always-turns/
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veterans_Health_Administration_scandal_of_2014#Merit_pay_bonuses_&_previous_reports_of_preventable_deaths
3. http://911research.fandom.com/wiki/The_Gorelick_Wall

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 28, 2020, 04:10:26 AM
Oyez! Oyez! Oyez! 2Tall declares it is everybody else's fault!

The only problem with The Plan that was left by the prior administration is that this administration ignored it.

See posts on this way back somewhere...

Don't make yourself look rediculous 2Tall..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 28, 2020, 06:01:25 AM

The only problem with The Plan that was left by the prior administration is that this administration ignored it.


Let us await a non-partisan investigation after the pandemic has ended.  Until then, it is fruitless to debate given the advocacy that infects all news reporting. 

As of today, we still have no idea how and when this will end. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on June 28, 2020, 07:36:40 AM
But you do have a clue who closed down bodies to deal with virus pandemics and we have seen the 'wise advice' the US President has handed out...from how quickly the virus would be gone to the efficacy of meds to combat its effects..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 28, 2020, 09:28:39 AM
The only problem with The Plan that was left by the prior administration is that this administration ignored it.


Trump had to ignore it. Obama allowed only the CDC to make test kits. Trump allowed States to hire private companies. Obama's plan wasn't suitable to handle the pathogen of the century which is predicted to show up once every century.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 28, 2020, 10:01:52 AM
As of today, we still have no idea how and when this will end.

We do however know how to manage well and in relative safety until we do find a way to make it end.  Takes a lot of work and perseverance, but definitely doable. We even have proof in the pudding:

(http://i.postimg.cc/nL6xtvfB/Screen-Shot-2020-06-28-at-18-55-41.png)

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 28, 2020, 10:22:16 AM
Trump had to ignore it. Obama allowed only the CDC to make test kits. Trump allowed States to hire private companies. Obama's plan wasn't suitable to handle the pathogen of the century which is predicted to show up once every century.

Already fully and completely debunked.

http://apnews.com/f4cd4c72e896d7fbd8ebd3516e864550
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on June 28, 2020, 10:40:02 AM
Oyez! Oyez! Oyez! 2Tall declares it is everybody else's fault!

The only problem with The Plan that was left by the prior administration is that this administration ignored it.

See posts on this way back somewhere...

Don't make yourself look rediculous 2Tall..


The facts changed on a daily basis, from China, from the CDC
and from the Trump administration which is full of Obama holdovers.

I'm not saying Trump is an Angel, or that he was right about everything
I am saying that nobody knew what was going on and EVERYBODY
switched every position at least twice.

You HATE Trump and couldn't find a bakery in Venice that sold a
stale loaf of bread without blaming it on Trump.   


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 28, 2020, 12:02:51 PM

I'm not saying Trump is an Angel, or that he was right about everything
I am saying that nobody knew what was going on and EVERYBODY
switched every position at least twice.

The 'playbook' left by the prior administration covered pretty much all aspects of such events and is written in a general way in order to be easily adaptable as events progress. Have you read it?

Quote
You HATE Trump and couldn't find a bakery in Venice that sold a
stale loaf of bread without blaming it on Trump.
 

I don't hate Trump, but do hate what he is doing to our country.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 28, 2020, 12:16:19 PM
Already fully and completely debunked.

http://apnews.com/f4cd4c72e896d7fbd8ebd3516e864550

We've already been through this months ago but anti Trump media wants to rewrite history. Show me one governor that was allowed to pay a private lab to create test kits before Trump lifted restrictions. The Obama administration rewrote the book on how to handle pandemics after the 2009 swine flu. Obama had 6 more years to prepare to make sure we had the supplies and the means required to handle pandemics. How are the lack of preparedness and the rules in that book Trump's fault?

http://khn.org/news/cdc-coronavirus-testing-decision-likely-to-haunt-nation-for-months-to-come/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 28, 2020, 01:11:51 PM
How are the lack of preparedness and the rules in that book Trump's fault?

As I already stated, he did not follow the playbook.  Instead he was denying there was a problem, stating that testing was not needed anyway and that the virus would quickly pass.  The playbook steps start far earlier than that.  There was no element of surprise involved.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 28, 2020, 01:13:17 PM
I don't hate Trump, but do hate what he is doing to our country.

Definitely a CNN narrative.

The best economic condition, lowest unemployment across the board, just to name a couple...I can't believe you hate seeing that happen in *my* country, but I'm cool with that.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 28, 2020, 01:37:57 PM
The 'playbook' left by the prior administration covered pretty much all aspects of such events and is written in a general way in order to be easily adaptable as events progress. Have you read it?


Evidently you have.  Let's examine the pandemic as nonpartisan observers rather than look for ways to blame Trump.  Bush had his hand in this as well, so let's start there.

Quote
In 2005, officials at the United States Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) developed a Pandemic Influenza Plan to coordinate and improve efforts to prevent, control, and respond to A(H5N1) viruses as well as other novel influenza A viruses of animal (e.g. from birds or pigs) with pandemic potential. Although it is impossible to predict when the next pandemic will occur, United States government have developed three tools to guide national, state and local planning and response. These tools align with the World Health Organization’s (WHO) global framework of pandemic phases and risk assessment activities for preparedness, response, and recovery.

Pandemic Intervals Framework (PIF)
Influenza Risk Assessment Tool (IRAT)
Pandemic Severity Assessment Framework (PSAF)
National Pandemic Strategy Docu

 

These and followup preparation docs and programs from Obama led to the US being ranked highest in regard to 2019 Global Health Security Index.  Even though the US had the highest score, 83.5  (followed by UK at 77.9), the score was far from perfect.  Oddly, the top two countries were among the hardest hit by COVID-19. 

So something other than playbooks led to getting off to the bad start. I assert the bad start resulted from limited testing, limited PPE supplies, and limited resources at the state and local levels to perform contact tracing.  And these could have been prevented by following the playbook?    Please show me where the playbook had critical tasks that Trump's administration ignored.   

In looking back, I contend the pandemic could have been worse without the initiatives Trump has taken.  The two initiatives to rapidly increase testing capabilities and to augment hospital capacities in hot spots is certainly commendable.  I am most impressed by the initiative to develop and supply a vaccine on a fast track.   So take off your hypercritical, curmudgeon blinders and add some insight.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 28, 2020, 01:47:28 PM

I don't hate Trump, but do hate what he is doing to our country.


Sure!

Unlike you and Trump, I wanted Obama to succeed, giving him the benefit of the doubt.  I commended him for not having any scandals, only to learn recently how treacherous he and his administration were.  I was disappointed in his inability to become a leader for the Black minority. 

If you don't hate Trump, why have you never applauded the President for what he has managed to accomplish?Surely something was a step forward for the US.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 28, 2020, 02:10:39 PM
As I already stated, he did not follow the playbook. 


As I've said, Trump ignored the playbook on purpose because it was flawed. There isn't one expert on earth that has experience on how to deal with a pandemic at this level so you will see no playbook written that is perfect and you will see no leader handling this pandemic perfectly. There's going to be too much or too little on the shutdowns. Too much economic pain or too many deaths. There's always something to complain about. In trying to save a few more lives, we end up ending relevant life for all those who are living. As far as testing kits go, they are notoriously inaccurate.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on June 28, 2020, 09:03:55 PM
Let us await a non-partisan investigation after the pandemic has ended.  Until then, it is fruitless to debate given the advocacy that infects all news reporting. 

As of today, we still have no idea how and when this will end.
...and if the investigation bears sour fruit for you, it will be derided and denied.

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on June 28, 2020, 09:07:32 PM
Oyez! Oyez! Oyez! 2Tall declares it is everybody else's fault!

The only problem with The Plan that was left by the prior administration is that this administration ignored it.

See posts on this way back somewhere...

Don't make yourself look rediculous 2Tall..
You can count on him to try to protect trump and blame the 'evil liberals' at every turn.  This technique hasn't been working as well lately.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 29, 2020, 12:58:35 AM
 
These and followup preparation docs and programs from Obama led to the US being ranked highest in regard to 2019 Global Health Security Index.  Even though the US had the highest score, 83.5  (followed by UK at 77.9), the score was far from perfect.  Oddly, the top two countries were among the hardest hit by COVID-19. 

Not odd at all, leaders of both countries pooh-poohed the virus and it bit back, hard.

Quote
So something other than playbooks led to getting off to the bad start. I assert the bad start resulted from limited testing, limited PPE supplies, and limited resources at the state and local levels to perform contact tracing.  And these could have been prevented by following the playbook?    Please show me where the playbook had critical tasks that Trump's administration ignored.
 

Let's start with messaging from the CDC crisis handbook.  http://emergency.cdc.gov/cerc/ppt/CERC_Spokesperson.pdf.

(http://i.postimg.cc/hjHcPdzW/Screen-Shot-2020-06-29-at-09-34-46.png)

Did the administration and other governmental organizations formulate, coordinate and promulgate consistent and factual messaging?

Follow that up with reviewing http://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/25/trump-coronavirus-national-security-council-149285

Keep in mind, and review actions proposed on certain events:

WHO declared a PHEIC on 30 Jan 2020

http://www.who.int/news-room/detail/30-01-2020-statement-on-the-second-meeting-of-the-international-health-regulations-(2005)-emergency-committee-regarding-the-outbreak-of-novel-coronavirus-(2019-ncov)

CDC declared a public health emergency (PHE) 31 Jan 2020

http://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/01/31/secretary-azar-declares-public-health-emergency-us-2019-novel-coronavirus.html

Quote
In looking back, I contend the pandemic could have been worse without the initiatives Trump has taken.  The two initiatives to rapidly increase testing capabilities and to augment hospital capacities in hot spots is certainly commendable.  I am most impressed by the initiative to develop and supply a vaccine on a fast track.   So take off your hypercritical, curmudgeon blinders and add some insight.

Taking into account that a PHEIC and PHE were issued end of January, lets see what the leader of our country was telling the public after 31 January

http://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/18-times-trump-said-the-coronavirus-would-go-away/2020/04/30/d2593312-9593-4ec2-aff7-72c1438fca0e_video.html

Enough insight to chew on for the moment?


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 29, 2020, 06:29:28 AM

China wasn't accurate or released info about the virus in a speedy manner. Trump still took action right after he found out human to human transmission was possible. He banned individuals that passed through China although WHO, CDC, and even Fauci all recommended against a travel ban. Trump was more right that the leading experts that write the playbooks. Trump later banned travel from Europe. He was the first or one of the first to do things that aren't written in the playbook. When it comes to most other matters, Fauci said Trump never went against his advice. Since America does more business with China than any other nation, we didn't fare too bad compared to Europe.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 29, 2020, 06:48:51 AM
Yeah, most flights were going to stop anyway, but he did stop whoever would still have been able to fly.  Guess some leftovers may have been prevented by his ban.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/2020/01/31/coronavirus-china-flight-ban-delta-cuts-all-flights-white-house/4620989002/

In great part, his 'ban' was preempted by stewardesses, pilots and unions.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 29, 2020, 07:25:31 AM

Taking into account that a PHEIC and PHE were issued end of January, lets see what the leader of our country was telling the public after 31 January

The Trump messages were mixed with such "hopeful" sentiment in combination with actions.  For example, you failed to list  Trump's clear and strong message of announcing simultaneous with the PHE severe restrictions on China travel,  so restrictive that Biden accused Trump of xenophobia. 

I agree, the President's leadership role is vital.  However, equally vital are the messages from governors because in the US fragmented healthcare system, state governments and local governments have responsibility for public health.  Yes, the same entities that have the freedom to create "sanctuary" regions in defiance of Trump's illegal immigration initiatives. 

Consider America's most impacted area:  the Democrat-led NY State and NYC.  In February after the PHE, NYC was giving messages even more hopeful than Trump's:

     -  From the City's health commissioner:   “We know that this virus can be transmitted from one individual to another, but that it is typically people who live together. There is no risk at this point in time…about having it being transmitted in casual contact.”

     -  Earlier in February, the Commissioner encouraged residents to attend the Lunar New Year parade in Chinatown.

    -  In March when the Mayor first wanted to lockdown the city, Governor Cuomo did not allow it, only to reverse his decision soon afterwards. 



Quote
Enough insight to chew on for the moment?

You still have not explained how Trump's actions (not just messages) were responsible for three key limitations in our Federal healthcare system that allowed faster spread of the virus in the US:

             -  limited testing,
             -  limited PPE supplies, and
             -  limited resources at the state and local levels to perform contact tracing.

In summary, all leaders, both Democrat and Republican, got caught flat footed.   Yet in your mind it is only Trump's fault.  Not only that, you continue to rationalize such with weak evidence when the facts show otherwise.  It reminds me  of the Democrat approach of grossly inflating a couple of unsubstantiated opinions to push the Russian collusion narrative.  Unlike it, however, this is no hoax and should receive our best, nonpolitical thinking going forward. 

Do you not have anything good to say about Trump and the pandemic?  Even Cuomo and Newsome publicly praised Trump for the prompt Federal help.   Consider that in deciding whether your Monday morning quarterback analysis is unbiased. 

This should not be about politics, but about stopping the spread of the virus.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 29, 2020, 08:13:02 AM
Yet in your mind it is only Trump's fault.  Not only that, you continue to rationalize such with weak evidence when the facts show otherwise.

Gator,

I defer to the rotting fish theory.  Like you, I am not privy to every, or even some of the meetings held from the timelines and action points suggested in the Pandemic Playbook left behind by the previous administration which includes the three points you focused on.  We will, however, find out some time in the future.

In my book, the president of the United States should be setting the tone for both governmental bodies and state governors and not a cheerleader to pacify the nation in a time of crisis.  His message was somewhere between 'all over the place' and 'nowhere', aside from blaming yet again someone who left the Oval 3 years ago.  He should have done it by the playbook, appointed a qualified, knowledgable spokesperson and allowed the host of governmental organizations to do their job according to their op plans for such events.  Instead, he decided to take centre stage and as usual disseminate conflicting information and misinformation to be digested by the public and those whom he should lead.  It shows his mistrust, inability to delegate and self-serving nature we see over and over again.

I don't buy the cheerleader motivation to keep our hopes and spirits up, which is also contrary to the playbook.  A little fear would have done us all good early on.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 29, 2020, 08:15:44 AM
This should not be about politics, but about stopping the spread of the virus.

We have known for many months how to stop the spread of the virus.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on June 29, 2020, 08:54:34 AM
I have no opinions of my own and I Hate America.
I still think that the Russians helped get Trump elected
and I haven't made one sensible comment or post in weeks.

Fathertime!

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 29, 2020, 09:50:37 AM
In great part, his 'ban' was preempted by stewardesses, pilots and unions.


Trump wasn't just thinking about people working in the airline industry. He's thinking about protecting ALL America. His ban started earlier and was better than flights from China stopping. He banned all individuals who were in China. That mean a foreign national in China can't just drive or fly into Vietnam and then fly to America circumventing a ban on flights from China. Infectious disease experts advised Trump against it. Democrats ridiculed Trump for doing so and labeled him a racist. But they were more focused on impeachment. A virus wasn't on their radar.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 29, 2020, 10:00:56 AM

We will, however, find out some time in the future.

Meanwhile, let's blame Trump.
 

Quote
  He should have done it by the playbook, appointed a qualified, knowledgable spokesperson and allowed the host of governmental organizations to do their job according to their op plans for such events. 

He appointed the VP to coordinate all Federal activities.   And what did the administration accomplish?  I could list the many accomplishments, yet you would ignore them all and still bitch.  Instead of acknowledging  the progress the administration made, you probably would write something such as:


Quote
Instead, he decided to take centre stage and as usual disseminate conflicting information and misinformation to be digested by the public and those whom he should lead.  It shows his mistrust, inability to delegate and self-serving nature we see over and over again.

Because you are outnumbered by conservatives in this forum, I will accept your focus on politics and style.  I would  prefer if you directed your talent and effort at a comprehensive analysis of medical developments, scientific data, and government accomplishments.   But that's just my preference.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 29, 2020, 10:09:43 AM
We have known for many months how to stop the spread of the virus.

I admit many Americans are too complacent, especially the young based on recent data.  OTOH,  some American are doing their part to stop the spread. 

(http://mail.google.com/mail/u/0?ui=2&ik=f57f246ca2&attid=0.6&permmsgid=msg-f:1670798831586213652&th=172fdeaf5fd57f14&view=fimg&sz=s0-l75-ft&attbid=ANGjdJ92sngao6VTxvyUbjXlMS-pnDICJ4UlAI96HBSFKv6pp3ONYCYU-NFSKB6SrBVJ1Df63m3BEF-QdEzTa9LTeYoyRGLFi6XeMfa8sEOKLEELOzjtB-F2NEdXmqQ&disp=emb)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 29, 2020, 10:13:16 AM
Gator,

In many ways, the result speaks for itself.

We could have levels around 1000 new infections per day by now, with an economy recovering from folks confident to go out and enjoying the beach this 4th of July.

Instead, we will settle for less, much less, for a longer time and higher price, both lives and pocketbook.

Few here will admit we screwed it up and continue to do so.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 29, 2020, 10:32:50 AM

Fauci says if a vaccine isn't very effective or not enough people take the vaccine, we won't achieve heard immunity. He also says no vaccine has ever been 100% effective.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/covid-19-vaccine-might-not-get-us-the-herd-immunity-if-too-many-people-refuse-to-get-it-fauci-says/ar-BB1659Qd?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 29, 2020, 11:19:55 AM
IMPLICATIONS OF CORONAVIRUS MUTATIONS

As with any virus, the SARS-CoV-2 is mutating and evolving.  Scripps Research has reported findings of a new strain with increased infectivity.   This could explain partly the rise in number of new cases. 

To review, the spikes on the virus give it the name "corona" and enable attaching to host cells.  Mutation since the first outbreak has yielded  a viral strain  with a more stable spike protein, better able to attach to and infect cells.

The overall effect is not fully understood, yet keep in mind that many but not all of the proposed vaccines are directed at disarming the spikes, rendering the virus less able to attach to host cells.    If the spikes are now more stable, such proposed vaccines could prove less effective, yet this needs to be researched further.   

On a positive note, it is quite possible that the mutation has yielded a virus with a lower fatality rate.   Via evolutionary selection, a strain that kills its host has smaller opportunity to be transmitted.    While an asymptomatic strain would have more opportunities to be transmitted.   

If interested, here's a June 12 news release from Scripps.

http://www.scripps.edu/news-and-events/press-room/2020/20200612-choe-farzan-coronavirus-spike-mutation.html



Here is a brief June 23 summary of what COVID-19 virus mutations could mean. 

http://theconversation.com/mutating-coronavirus-what-it-means-for-all-of-us-140209
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on June 29, 2020, 11:38:00 AM

Few here will admit we screwed it up and continue to do so.


Before crowing,  give us please progress reports on Italy's tourist revenues.   

If Italy's tourist season this summer is equivalent  to 2019 with a continuing low number of new cases, I will admit that America screwed it up. 

   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on June 29, 2020, 11:58:51 AM


Bill too tall gets upset when he doesn't like an opinion, or is unable to counter it effectively,  and will create false quotes as a tantrum(p)

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 29, 2020, 12:36:22 PM
Gator,

As far as tourists go, for June 10 million less in June than last year (-50%) with only EU tourists.  Some cautious optimism though things may improve once folks from outside EU are allowed in from 1 July (with the exception of US and a few others).  US accounts for 2 billion/year.  All in all don't expect too awful much, certainly not a miracle considering many took a financial hit.  But who knows, maybe folks from elsewhere will opt to come on down after considering the low number of infections representing relative safety.

So no, for a variety of factors I doubt we'll come awful close to last year's numbers, but will be interesting to compare notes in the fall, economic and infections.  I'd love to get back to the US and spend a few bucks, but it ain't happening this year it seems.  Personally I'm all for a slow tourist season to test the waters and see how things evolve.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 29, 2020, 05:48:11 PM
The virus is mutating. It's much more infectious than the first that jumped to humans. That means there's reduced chance of this virus dying out on it's own. Let's hope the next mutation doesn't make it more lethal. The more humans(petri dishes) the virus infects,  the greater the chances for mutating again.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/world-s-dominant-strain-of-coronavirus-is-10-times-more-infectious-than-the-one-that-jumped-to-humans-in-china-because-it-mutated-so-its-vital-spike-protein-doesn-t-snap-as-often-in-the-body-scientists-say/ar-BB167e7l?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on June 29, 2020, 09:01:49 PM
The virus is mutating. It's much more infectious than the first that jumped to humans. That means there's reduced chance of this virus dying out on it's own. Let's hope the next mutation doesn't make it more lethal. The more humans(petri dishes) the virus infects,  the greater the chances for mutating again.


http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/world-s-dominant-strain-of-coronavirus-is-10-times-more-infectious-than-the-one-that-jumped-to-humans-in-china-because-it-mutated-so-its-vital-spike-protein-doesn-t-snap-as-often-in-the-body-scientists-say/ar-BB167e7l?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds
I wasn't a big buyer into all the bologna about the virus dying out during the summer.  Some have said the virus has been mutating into something less deadly...one thought is if it can mutate into something less deadly  it can probably mutate into something more deadly as well. 
Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 29, 2020, 10:46:07 PM
IIRC the original was less deadly, maybe even less infective then Europe got the more deadly more infective version which spread to the US east coast whilst the west coast mostly got the eastern variety.

This is why I believe Fauci mentioned that those working on vaccines should address both.

I could be wrong though, this all from memory.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 29, 2020, 10:48:21 PM
Let's hope the next mutation doesn't make it more lethal. The more humans(petri dishes) the virus infects,  the greater the chances for mutating again.

Indeed.  This is why I think stopping the virus spread and not just being content with 'flattening' the curve is important - mutations may be less likely to occur.

With the high number of infections in the US, a new version may well be referred to as the US Coronavirus... - and rightly so as we allowed it to happen willingly.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on June 30, 2020, 06:06:07 AM
With the high number of infections in the US, a new version may well be referred to as the US Coronavirus... - and rightly so as we allowed it to happen willingly.
Now we can stamp it the USA coronavirus! At least we made something, we should put our little Made in the USA sticker on all the dead bodies. 

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on June 30, 2020, 08:09:19 AM
I wasn't a big buyer into all the bologna about the virus dying out during the summer.   
Fathertime!

You've made no predictions, you just say you did
or pontificate as if you did after the fact. There is
a thread for making predictions, you've made none
there as well.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 30, 2020, 06:37:45 PM
Now the explosion of new infections going on is hopefully isolated to those band of idiots that consisted of antifa, blm, looters, rioters, statue toppling snowflakes, and the rest of zombie marching numbnuts.

The media celebrated this period of madness yet today not one of them is crediting that to this current rise.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on June 30, 2020, 09:12:22 PM
You've made no predictions, you just say you did
or pontificate as if you did after the fact. There is
a thread for making predictions, you've made none
there as well.
You are a little angry that I haven't made any ridiculous predictions as you have.   I don't see any point in making predictions about the virus.  I'd rather mock some of your ridiculous predictions because they are so mock worthy.   

I never saw reason to buy into the virus dying out in summer, it was hot in the tropics during our winter/spring and it was still spreading there.   

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 01, 2020, 05:50:04 AM

Before crowing,  give us please progress reports on Italy's tourist revenues.   

If Italy's tourist season this summer is equivalent  to 2019 with a continuing low number of new cases, I will admit that America screwed it up. 

 

In addition to some countries external to the EU, looks like Italy is being very conservative by quarantining anyone from non-EU countries, even own citizens returning to IT.

This measure likely prompted by watching COVID increases in Greece after allowing tourists.

In order to support tourism-related hospitality industry, the government is offering vacation bonuses for lower-income folks (40K per year and under).  500 EUR for a family of 3, 300 EUR for a family of two and 150 for singles.  80% is a direct discount used when booking and the remaining 20% can be deducted from taxes.  We'll see how that helps out.

Obviously Italy is not going to give up the progress that has been made beating down the virus.

Things are almost normal here.  Even masks are not required except in businesses and in some Lombardy areas where the virus is still slightly active.



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 01, 2020, 07:59:03 AM
In order to support tourism-related hospitality industry, the government is offering vacation bonuses for lower-income folks (40K per year and under).  500 EUR for a family of 3, 300 EUR for a family of two and 150 for singles.  80% is a direct discount used when booking and the remaining 20% can be deducted from taxes.  We'll see how that helps out.


That helps certain businesses make money but Italy still has to pay for it. Americans are banned from travelling to Europe so less outside money will be brought into Italy. Even if Italy gets infections to near zero, it only takes a few months before some region will be under lockdown again due to the speed this virus spreads. Certain measures of social distancing will slow it down but if not enough, it will spread as we can see in America as people go back to work or protest.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 01, 2020, 09:53:42 AM
Even if Italy gets infections to near zero, it only takes a few months before some region will be under lockdown again due to the speed this virus spreads. Certain measures of social distancing will slow it down but if not enough, it will spread as we can see in America as people go back to work or protest.

Billy,

It doesn't have to be that way. We just have to be smarter than this very dumb virus, remain vigilant and prudent.

Italy and most other EU countries fought hard for the progress made so far, not to just flatten the curve but to rid ourselves of the virus and deal with the embers.  We've gone through the several phases of reopening and normalizing over the last month without any great resurgence.  Numbers keep falling and falling.  All eyes remain on the ball for any flareups of the embers.  Testing continues along with tracking and tracing the embers, ready to douse wherever needed.  The remaining embers number less than 200 detected infections per day with 50k tests daily over the last month.

There are only 15,000 active cases at this moment, less every day as folks get well and cleared by follow up tests. 1000 are in the hospital, 87 in intensive care and the rest quarantined at home. Sadly 21 died today.

All considered, and in comparison of what's happening back home in the US, I am amazed at what has been accomplished here. Confidence is building that the situation can hold with or without a vaccine.

The formula is simple, 45-day strict national lockdown to starve out the virus, test the crap out of everyone to quarantine those infected, letting numbers fall to a manageable level. Follow this with a 45 day phased reopening and keep testing.

Either you own the virus or it owns you.  Just a matter of will, patience and perseverance.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 01, 2020, 10:21:47 AM
Italy and most other EU countries fought hard for the progress made so far,


At what price to your economy? We may not know the answer for years. The decline in economy will translate to a decline in quality of life.

America is a huge country with 50 States. Trump allowed governors to control the shutdowns in their respective States. Even within States, a one size solution doesn't fit all. Larger cities are more densely populated and are ripe for outbreaks while small towns have less to fear but why should a small town shut down if big cities 50 miles away are having an outbreak?

Sure this virus kills if left out of control. I hear this from the left. From the right I hear depression and people aren't getting their surgeries in time and that is killing people. What is the truth? At first the virus was killing tens of thousands of people per week more than what is predicted in 2020. I was on the bandwagon for quick and total shut downs. Right now in America, less lives are being lost than expected. We aren't as active or driving as much. Social distancing is preventing other diseases transmissible from human to human. Our actions are saving more lives all across the board. Due to many nations lying pertaining to the death toll caused by COVID-19 historians will use another chart to calculate deaths. In the link below, just before the halfway mark is America's chart. One can calculate the amount of deaths in the past few months and see it is much more than America's recorded total. Obviously we have much more COVID-19 deaths than what is reported to WHO not because we're lying but because some deaths were missed or misdiagnosed. But what is amazing is how fast deaths are dropping and the last week recorded in June is thousands of deaths lower than what is predicted for that week in 2020. At this moment in time, America is losing less lives than what was predicted to be lost through all means. We're saving lives right now. Amazing but true.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm#dashboard

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 01, 2020, 11:36:07 AM
ANOTHER VACCINE WITH EXCELLENT RESULTS IN HUMAN TRIALS

Pfizer and the German pharmaceutical company Biotech announced today preliminary results from human testing. 

Their proposed vaccine was previously administered to 45 volunteers.  In the low dose group, all 24  volunteers developed neutralizing antibodies at levels 2x-3x the levels observed in patients who had recovered from COVID-19. 

A Phase 3 trial with 30,000 human volunteers is expected to start within a month.  If that trial goes well, the vaccine could be approved for emergency use in the Fall. 


Phase 3 trials are expected to start as follows for other vaccines in the pipeline:

     Moderna - July
     AstraZeneca - August
     Johnson & Johnson  -  September
     GlaxoSmithKline and Sanofi - December

Still preliminary, yet good news.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 01, 2020, 01:02:00 PM

This article came out an hour ago and it says a study believes America's death count due to COVID-19 is 28% higher than official count based on using historical records of what death count should be.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/covid-19-deaths-in-the-u-s-may-be-28-higher-than-official-count-study-estimates/ar-BB16dD2D?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 01, 2020, 01:36:01 PM
This article came out an hour ago and it says a study believes America's death count due to COVID-19 is 28% higher than official count based on using historical records of what death count should be.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/covid-19-deaths-in-the-u-s-may-be-28-higher-than-official-count-study-estimates/ar-BB16dD2D?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds

Possible.  Lockdown is stressful to many people, and stress can cause death without actually being infected with COVID-19.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 01, 2020, 03:29:01 PM
Possible.  Lockdown is stressful to many people, and stress can cause death without actually being infected with COVID-19.



According to national data from 2007 to 2010, the suicide rate went up by 1.6 percentage points for each percentage unemployment rose.


Certainly the potential for increased suicides have been factored into Trump's and governors decisions to opening the country. Compared to the recession years, our government has increased unemployment benefits and stimulus money. They also made it easier to qualify for unemployment and not get kicked out of the apartment if failing to pay rent. Years from now they will figure out the amount of deaths from COVID-19 and deaths due to depression and the stress of staying home. They will also factor "other" lives saved when staying home. Less auto accidents, injuries and illnesses have saved lives which hasn't been brought into the main debate.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 01, 2020, 09:48:21 PM
This article came out an hour ago and it says a study believes America's death count due to COVID-19 is 28% higher than official count based on using historical records of what death count should be.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/covid-19-deaths-in-the-u-s-may-be-28-higher-than-official-count-study-estimates/ar-BB16dD2D?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds

28% higher due to COVID-19 but not because of death caused by the infection. There was a universal stoppage of elective surgery or scheduled clinical treatment. The effect is pretty widespread. People are delayed getting their normal clinical attention and treatment because of the virus lockdown. Rise in cancer deaths, strikes, heart attacks, etc.

30,000 - 40,000 new daily infection is flashed across the headlines. What it doesn’t tell you is nearly 96% of that are mild cases. Daily deaths are and have been steady or on a slight decline.

Hospitalization increased the past 2-3 weeks but what they’re not saying is, it is because They opened non-COVID infection hospitalizations.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 01, 2020, 11:07:32 PM
Quote
ra·tion·al·i·za·tion
/ˌraSH(ə)n(ə)ləˈzāSH(ə)n,ˌraSH(ə)n(ə)līˈzāSH(ə)n/

1.
the action of attempting to explain or justify behavior or an attitude with logical reasons, even if these are not appropriate.
"most people are prone to self-deceptive rationalization"


There is no reason why suicides have to rise.
There is no reason why folks can't get their medical needs taken care of.
There is no reason why folks can't go back to their old jobs.
There is no reason why folks can't go to the beach.
There is no reason why folks can't go on vacation.

No matter how one wants to twist and turn the argument, we are at fault for our own inaction, unwillingness and inability to get our act together.  It is a problem WE own and the results are now of our own creation. The finger of fault and responsibility can only be pointed at ourselves and our leaders who were not able or willing to take the ball and run with it.

"...but... but... but..." has become totally irrelevant.

(http://i.postimg.cc/mgkfvJZX/Screen-Shot-2020-07-02-at-07-42-13.png)

Our unjustified sense of 'exceptionalism' is killing us.







Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 02, 2020, 04:47:44 AM
BC,

Yes, the chart of new cases is disconcerting.  Keep in mind most of the new cases are in the younger age categories, many of whom are asymptomatic.  That and better therapies has lowered the case fatality rate.

(http://ci6.googleusercontent.com/proxy/uofhdI1fd7ASSB1HlPc3upnSyCtpvu1JaVsXuRApbRHJqMgySH3oI55av4JJdFd82jFSFQndU51BLtF91YjCIYrULHOPuOqWzNt_-D8sRLsbvNmSDg4VdwS5XJqpm-fSdEN4BYZzib9C0Iibv9KWIZtbuxWqWeXmQvDk3gYWvpRIQ6F7MA=s0-d-e1-ft#http://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/07/02/multimedia/02-MORNING-DEATHSHARE/02-MORNING-DEATHSHARE-articleLarge.png)

The surge took off in Florida about two weeks ago.  So far the death rate has not kept pace with new cases.  There is of course a lag period, so the next 10 days will be telling.  Florida's COVID dashboard reports ICU availability by county.  So far, capacity is not a problem (1,033 open ICU beds in Florida with capabilities to expand). 

Quote
  Our unjustified sense of 'exceptionalism' is killing us.

Why the surge?  Feelings of invulnerability certainly played a role with the young.  Maybe some complacency.  Yet, I would say the prevailing feeling was resignation - the acceptance of something undesirable but inevitable. 

This will be over in the first quarter of 2021 as we progress towards herd immunity augmented by administering vaccines. 






Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 02, 2020, 05:18:31 AM
As of June 29, 2020 (http://www.valleypres.org/For-Patients/Covid-19/Facts.aspx)

The total population of the U.S. is 328,200,000 people. The total number of confirmed COVID-19 cases in the U.S. currently is 2,545,250 with 126,369 deaths. That means that less than 1% of the population have or had confirmed COVID-19.The number of new cases nationally have been declining since its peak in March and April but positive tests are increasing for the week ending June 20 in several regions. Deaths have continued to decrease. For those with COVID-19 nationally, the death rate is about 4.9%. The CDC reports that among adults, 8 out of 10 deaths have been 65 years of age and older. People at any age may be at greater risk if they have serious underlying medical conditions.* To date, there have been 32,297,688 COVID-19 tests conducted in the U.S.

Their truths over facts. It’s an election year folks! Russian collusion part deux
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 02, 2020, 07:42:58 AM
Gator,
GQ,

I guess you two did not get the gist of my post.

No worries though.  In a few weeks, my point will be very clear.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 02, 2020, 07:58:22 AM

I guess you two did not get the gist of my post.

No worries though.  In a few weeks, my point will be very clear.

I interpreted your post as we are dying.  I answered with:

So far the death rate has not kept pace with new cases.  There is of course a lag period, so the next 10 days will be telling. 

You could be correct.  I assert we will know in 10 days if deaths increase in younger people. 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 02, 2020, 08:24:54 AM
BC, 

The surge of new infections is significant and please don't think I am belittling it.  Yet, its significance must be examined relative to multiple issues now besieging America.   

                     Pandemic
                     Jobs
                     Debt
                     Racial Inequality
                     Law and Order

And I excluded climate change, #Me Too, China trade, the genesis of the Russian collusion hoax, the next Russian hoax, healthcare-Obamacare, illegal immigration, ...... Whew!!!   And people criticized Eisenhower for doing nothing in his 8 years as President.

I am saying there are worse "things" than the pandemic even though it could take my life. 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 02, 2020, 08:29:52 AM
28% higher due to COVID-19 but not because of death caused by the infection. There was a universal stoppage of elective surgery or scheduled clinical treatment. The effect is pretty widespread. People are delayed getting their normal clinical attention and treatment because of the virus lockdown. Rise in cancer deaths, strikes, heart attacks, etc.


The study was for virus related infections. I'm sure another study will be pertaining to suicides and other non virus related deaths due to the actions we've taken on the virus. But in the CDC website, deaths are drastically falling because we're saving a lot of lives based on our changes in behavior. We are driving less and we aren't catching other infectious diseases as often due to social distancing. There is less physical activity so less chance to get injured, killed or catch HIV. Staying at home too much will hurt the economy so the government must find a balance of going back to work without letting the virus get out of control.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 02, 2020, 10:06:21 AM
The study was for virus related infections. I'm sure another study will be pertaining to suicides and other non virus related deaths due to the actions we've taken on the virus. But in the CDC website, deaths are drastically falling because we're saving a lot of lives based on our changes in behavior. We are driving less and we aren't catching other infectious diseases as often due to social distancing. There is less physical activity so less chance to get injured, killed or catch HIV. Staying at home too much will hurt the economy so the government must find a balance of going back to work without letting the virus get out of control.

We're both in the same industry, BillyB and while I'll be lacking in understanding every development in your area, I can tell you ours is fairly robust, and even the housing (new home) sector is starting to perk up. If they actually do push the infrastructure funding like they repeatedly mumbled about - you can bet a loud screech when the rubber hits the road.

The latest labor report just announced for June was a smash! Just as May was!!! This is definitely a better than a positive trend for the country despite all the craziness that happened the last two months. This is also a trend that is NOT a favorable trend for everyone. Election is but 5 months away, what's the best thing that can happen to Trump - or the worst thing that can happen to Biden?

Stopping the trend is mission #1, baby!  Closely and very objectively read this article (http://www.cnn.com/2020/07/02/health/coronavirus-hospitalizations-rates-rise/index.html). Follow every focal points being stated and note how they support these points. They mostly 'blame' the rise on new infection solely on 'opening to soon - and group gathering', so the course of action is once again 'close' down recently opened businesses. What I can tell you on main street here is: Every establishment we've gone to/got to, including supermarkets, etc...there's a markedly noticeable compliance to the rules. Even restaurants. Tables are, on average, half empty to assure proper distancing, masks, sometimes temp checks. I'm beginning to almost hear unanimous in-ground remarks that the current *panic* is mainly politically driven.

Unless you walk the streets to see and hear real events and development, folks have no way to refute what the media and politicians flood us with. It's an election year! I can only hope there's enough Americans out there that's capable of rationalizing things beyond their noses.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 02, 2020, 10:17:40 AM
We're both in the same industry, BillyB and while I'll be lacking in understanding every development in your area, I can tell you ours is fairly robust, and even the housing (new home) sector is starting to perk up. If they actually do push the infrastructure funding like they repeatedly mumbled about - you can bet a loud screech when the rubber hits the road.


While construction is allowed to happen in my region, I've had a large project put on hold due to the developer wanting to wait the virus out. I talked to the owner of a General Contracting company and he said he's bidding jobs at cost just to keep his guys working. Some jobs been cancelled but there is work but there won't be much profit if companies have to lower their bids to get that work. If this coronavirus thing drags on for years, it will significantly impact the construction industry just like the recession did.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 03, 2020, 01:54:05 PM
INTRIGUE:  DIFFERENT COVID DASHBOARDS FOR FLORIDA


I rebooted my computer and lost the bookmark to the Florida COVID dashboard.  So I googled and found it.  However, the dashboard appearance had changed and the data categories had changed too.  I soon realized the dashboard I googled was not sanctioned by the Florida Dept of Health, but something developed by a new organization, Florida COVID Action.

The action group consists of five primary contributors who track changes in the data, communicate with the press, list key data resources for public use, and report on the inner-workings of the state.   To protect their identities and their jobs, four of the five authors remain anonymous. The founder is a former manager of COVID-19 data and surveillance at the Florida Department of Health.   Others include a statistician, USMC intelligence officer, and state employees inside the State Emergency Operations Center.


Notes on the Dashboard reveal the following two areas of dispute with FL DOH.

1.  Number of Deaths.


Quote
   
Additionally, DOH does not provide the date of death for any case. The chart on the now-disabled DOH dshboard showing resident deaths by date is just that - residents only by date of death for cases where a death certificate has been received and the date of death verified by the state.

The CDC warns "delays in reporting a person's death to the state can range from 1 week to 8 weeks or more, depending on the jurisdiction and cause of death."

According to internal DOH records, deaths reported by DOH were reported an average 7-21 days after the COVID-19 positive person died (date from March through mid-June, with some deaths reported as late as 44 days after death.


2.  Number of ICU Beds


Quote
  On June 22, 2020, Governor DeSantis announced that the Agency for Health Care Administration (AHCA) would no longer report the number of occupied ICU beds as it had previously been done.

AHCA provides the hospital data you see on this page.

Consequently, the number of available beds shown here likely includes beds that are currently occupied, but that the DeSantis administration has determined by an un-disclosed metric could be made available by removing the person occupying it.


One could say this balances those groups claiming hospitals are incentivized to report some deaths as COVID deaths if the cause is mixed.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 04, 2020, 05:13:33 AM
CORONAVIRUS SELF-CHECK

This may have been covered earlier, yet deserves repeating given the current surge of COVID cases.
Hospitalizations are increasing too.  Deaths have not kept pace; however, deaths lag the onset of infection by 10-14 days if not longer. 

Death usually results from progressive pulmonary fibrosis.  This deterioration of the lungs could start before other symptoms (fever and dry coughing) would compel testing.  To catch infection early and receive medical treatment before lungs are severely damaged, Taiwan doctors advise the following  simple self-check: 

Quote
Every morning, take a deep breath and hold your breath for more than 10 seconds. If you complete it successfully without coughing, without discomfort, stiffness or tightness, etc., it proves there is no fibrosis in the lungs, basically indicating no infection.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 04, 2020, 05:26:37 AM
Total nonsense, Phil ..debunked long ago ((
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on July 04, 2020, 11:33:09 AM
WHO Takes U-Turn


China Never Reported Existence of Coronavirus to World Health
 Organization WHO backtracks on original claim that China
self-reported, admits this never happened
http://freebeacon.com/national-security/china-never-reported-existence-of-coronavirus-to-world-health-organization/


WHO admits China never reported the existence of coronavirus outbreak
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/who-admits-china-never-reported-the-existence-of-coronavirus-outbreak


China Did Not Report COVID-19 Outbreak in Initial Stages, WHO Takes U-Turn
http://www.india.com/news/world/who-takes-u-turn-admits-china-did-not-report-covid-19-outbreak-in-initial-stages-4074891/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on July 04, 2020, 01:00:19 PM
There are certainly plenty of crazy ideas going around.

Please don't microwave the library books.
http://www.cnn.com/2020/07/04/us/dont-microwave-your-library-books-trnd/index.html

And this humdinger about airborne aids:
http://docs.google.com/document/d/108ckCoxJVUdbRMr9w0cyd41Tnb5cr_LAbHp4ezm9Dxw/edit 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 05, 2020, 06:14:50 AM
Total nonsense, Phil ..debunked long ago ((

What a relief!   It is good to know that COVID will not affect my lungs prior to manifesting other symptoms. 

The "10 seconds" is not universally applicable, yet any inexplicable reduction in lung capacity should raise concern given we are still learning about the many ways COVID irreparably affects our health.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 05, 2020, 09:59:09 AM

WHO halts trails on a few treatment drugs. What's the next drug they going to announce to give people hope?


http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/who-halts-hydroxychloroquine-trials-after-failure-to-reduce-death/ar-BB16l2Ba?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds


Iran experiences their deadliest day. Could it be they are into a second wave so soon? Temperature in Tehran is 90-100 for the highs. The coronavirus isn't bothered much by hot weather

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/florida-cases-rise-53percent-iran-has-deadliest-day-virus-update/ar-BB16kvcJ?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds


Man who survived 9/11 in NY dies by COVID-19 in Florida

http://www.yahoo.com/news/man-famous-9-11-photo-183101421.html (http://www.yahoo.com/news/man-famous-9-11-photo-183101421.html)[/size]
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 05, 2020, 11:13:01 AM

OMG. The coronavirus was laying dormant around the world for years in sewage until humans created the environment that allowed it to thrive. Put on your best tin foil hat before reading the article below.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/covid-19-may-not-originated-143843488.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on July 05, 2020, 05:39:10 PM
Put on your best tin foil hat before reading the article below.

Damn, Billy!

All I have is Aluminum foil!! Do you think I can double it up??!!?! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 06, 2020, 08:00:17 AM
I heard a fascinating report this morning. Probably one of the very few 'earlier' report that remained 'constant' in the sea of all the 'expert' speculations they constantly fed all of us from the very beginning - the likelihood of the total infection rate is in the range of 10x the known cases.

New infection cases report says about 90% increase the past 2-3 weeks. Death rate however declined to 19%. 'Lag' these numbers as much as anyone can, but methinks let's get our lives back to normal because I think there's enough empirical evidence this virus may be highly infectious, it is hardly virulent. Mostly no different than the flu. The virus is deadly for the most vulnerable amongst us - the very old and the very 'sick'.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 06, 2020, 09:02:27 AM
I heard a fascinating report this morning. Probably one of the very few 'earlier' report that remained 'constant' in the sea of all the 'expert' speculations they constantly fed all of us from the very beginning - he likelihood of the total infection rate is in the range of 10x the known cases.

New infection cases report says about 90% increase the past 2-3 weeks. Death rate however declined to 19%. 'Lag' these numbers as much as anyone can, but I methinks let's get our lives back to normal because I think there's enough empirical evidence this virus may be highly infectious, it is hardly virulent. Mostly no different than the flu. The virus is deadly for the most vulnerable amongst us - the very old and the very 'sick'.

There's going to be a constant battle between media and scientists to put out studies that fit their narrative. NY State lost 1 out of every 600 citizens in a matter of months. The ratio is much worse in NYC. It would have been much worse if NY didn't take action. While NY State loses 4500 people per year to influenza, they've lost 32,000 people to the coronavirus in a matter of months. For some survivors of the coronavirus, they will have temporary or permanent organ damage.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/newyork/newyork.htm
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 06, 2020, 01:51:11 PM
There's going to be a constant battle between media and scientists to put out studies that fit their narrative. NY State lost 1 out of every 600 citizens in a matter of months. The ratio is much worse in NYC. It would have been much worse if NY didn't take action. While NY State loses 4500 people per year to influenza, they've lost 32,000 people to the coronavirus in a matter of months. For some survivors of the coronavirus, they will have temporary or permanent organ damage.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/states/newyork/newyork.htm

Sure, simply because the seasonal 'flu' is pretty much with us every year whereas COVID-19 was (is) fairly new and so many things affected the 'death count'. There are also mixed reports of death with COVID, death due to COVID and death because of the infection, These were all counted under the impact of the virus.

We don't get these type of accounting with the flu for the simple reason it is no longer a novel (unknown) virus.

Two very important caveats are, with the flu, we pretty much have a vaccine, while not 100% it is still a good preventative treatment. Moreover, COVID-19 is MOSTLY lethal to the very old and the very sick. The flu is not very selective. Everyone/anyone is fair game.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on July 06, 2020, 02:36:30 PM
Sure, simply because the seasonal 'flu' is pretty much with us every year whereas COVID-19 was (is) fairly new and so many things affected the 'death count'. There are also mixed reports of death with COVID, death due to COVID and death because of the infection, These were all counted under the impact of the virus.

We don't get these type of accounting with the flu for the simple reason it is no longer a novel (unknown) virus.

Two very important caveats are, with the flu, we pretty much have a vaccine, while not 100% it is still a good preventative treatment. Moreover, COVID-19 is MOSTLY lethal to the very old and the very sick. The flu is not very selective. Everyone/anyone is fair game.

We've been fed a big ole steamy pile of bulls*it on covid from the start and it continues to this day. Who knows if or when it will ever end. The numbers were grossly exaggerated by other deaths. The infection rate skyrockets with the increased testing during the lock downs, yet testing multiplies, so does the infections and then comes more lock downs. Rinse, repeat and go all over again. This is happening everywhere in the world. This for a virus that so far kills .06% of the infected. Mostly the elderly, some others with underlying conditions, here and there some seemingly younger and completely healthy. Well over 95% of the infected get over covid without any intervention. How do we know what killed those with the way the stats have been manipulated? Again, this is happening all over the world and that is what you should be paying attention to. The truth of this virus is out there but we're not getting it.

But look at the world over, we're staying away from each other, isolated, wearing masks and awaiting with baited breath like kids for candy for a vaccine for something less lethal than the flu. The covid likely isn't going to kill you. Influenza has a better chance of that. What likely will kill you is the other infections, bugs and vaccines coming your way and they are coming your way. It's now mind control and soon it'll be population control
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 06, 2020, 03:28:22 PM
do you think they'll go as far as putting fluorine in the water?
gosh, I hope not!!!

look what Corona has done to us nationally in just 6 months starting from ZERO cases
now imagine the next 6 months starting from 3,000,000+ cases

in Texas and Florida one out of five being tested is NOW coming back positive
a 500% increase from 2 weeks ago!!


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on July 06, 2020, 03:38:38 PM
do you think they'll go as far as putting fluorine in the water?
gosh, I hope not!!!

look what Corona has done to us nationally in just 6 months starting from ZERO cases
now imagine the next 6 months starting from 3,000,000+ cases

in Texas and Florida one out of five being tested is NOW coming back positive
a 500% increase from 2 weeks ago!!

Are you sick or dead?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 06, 2020, 05:06:05 PM
Moreover, COVID-19 is MOSTLY lethal to the very old and the very sick. The flu is not very selective. Everyone/anyone is fair game.


Over 90% of flu deaths belong to people 50 years and older. Old people tend to die more easily than younger people from cancer, heart disease, flu, gunshot wounds, falls, and just about any other kind of disease or physical trauma. Our hospitals can handle ALL the community's illnesses and injuries combined but in a COVID-19 outbreak, they are overwhelmed. Over 15,000 Italian doctors got COVID-19 and hundreds died. This count does not include other medical professionals and when they get ill, it takes tens of thousands out of action and when they die, they aren't quickly replaced since it takes years to get a medical worker educated.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html


Immunity after beating the virus is still unknown. One expert thinks a small percentage of people will get immunity and even then, it will be short lived.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/immunity-to-the-coronavirus-is-fragile-and-short-lived-immunologist-warns/ar-BB16oSue?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds


Dr. Fauci said a vaccine may not provide lifelong immunity based on what we know about existing coronaviruses. I'd hate to be wearing masks forever. As years go by and nations go into recessions and quality of life is reduced, we'll begin to realize how much China fukced over humanity.

http://www.cnbc.com/2020/06/02/dr-anthony-fauci-says-theres-a-chance-coronavirus-vaccine-may-not-provide-immunity-for-very-long.html?&doc=106604273

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 06, 2020, 06:39:23 PM
"Are you sick or dead?"

mentally, yes...
metaphorically, yes...

but I have been on snapchat with 3 sick people...
who all tell the SAME story
that it is like getting a bad flu
none of the three have had to go to the hospital YET...

I'm thinking that when I get this, I'm probably gonna survive it
but for two weeks, it's really gonna suck being sick with this




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on July 06, 2020, 08:14:54 PM
"Are you sick or dead?"

mentally, yes...
metaphorically, yes...

but I have been on snapchat with 3 sick people...
who all tell the SAME story
that it is like getting a bad flu
none of the three have had to go to the hospital YET...

I'm thinking that when I get this, I'm probably gonna survive it
but for two weeks, it's really gonna suck being sick with this

You have a 99% chance of surviving it, a bad flu yet you and 90% of the world's population will be lining up to let them shoot you up with a vaccine that's likely already been long developed and much worse. There's a rat in the wood pile. This isn't political, this is a good vs evil and covid is only the beginning
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 07, 2020, 03:36:04 AM
Which 'bad flu' leaves many of those who survived with life changing issues ( respiratory and more)?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on July 07, 2020, 04:20:48 AM
Which 'bad flu' leaves many of those who survived with life changing issues ( respiratory and more)?

What exactly is your question Moobs? MERS, swine, bird and influenza. They are all corona viruses btw but you being an expert in all things would know that, wouldn't you?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 07, 2020, 05:47:58 AM
Mr Mistake..

Nice try at obfuscation re yet another one if your inept 'contributions' to this discussion..

You have suggested efficacy of a useless drug to combat COVID-19 and want to suggest those surviving it have no issues..

This is no 'flu'..

Only ill informed people and 'Trampu' are suggesting otherwise.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on July 07, 2020, 06:55:39 AM
Mr Mistake..

Nice try at obfuscation re yet another one if your inept 'contributions' to this discussion..

You have suggested efficacy of a useless drug to combat COVID-19 and want to suggest those surviving it have no issues..

This is no 'flu'..

Only I'll informed people and 'Trampu' are suggesting otherwise.

Mr Moron..
As per usual your head is planted squarely up your ass. Please point out where I have obfuscated. Take your time Either answer the question in my riposte or kindly stfu and quit with your expected usual dodge. Covid is a "flu" whether your limited intellect can acknowledge it or not.

Again as expected your obfuscation of "You have suggested efficacy of a useless drug to combat COVID-19 and want to suggest those surviving it have no issues." is noted. You are a hack unable to think for yourself and take with ease the bullet points given you. HQC has helped many according to the experts. Argue with them or a wall, makes no difference to me

"Our analysis shows that using hydroxychloroquine helped save lives," said neurosurgeon Dr. Steven Kalkanis, CEO, Henry Ford Medical Group and Senior Vice President and Chief Academic Officer of Henry Ford Health System. "As doctors and scientists, we look to the data for insight. And the data here is clear that there was benefit to using the drug as a treatment for sick, hospitalized patients."

http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2020/july/new-hydroxychloroquine-study-proves-trump-right-says-it-significantly-cuts-death-rate?fbclid=IwAR0GbCotpjw6tMP8FURRmWfWALszM9eqj-Eu8KPhqxNhNZg57W82EmC0Cl8 (http://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2020/july/new-hydroxychloroquine-study-proves-trump-right-says-it-significantly-cuts-death-rate?fbclid=IwAR0GbCotpjw6tMP8FURRmWfWALszM9eqj-Eu8KPhqxNhNZg57W82EmC0Cl8)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 07, 2020, 08:54:37 AM

Florida doctor says most of the patients coming in are younger now. She says 67% of her asymptomatic patients are showing lung damage. Start at the 45 second mark in the video

http://www.msnbc.com/11th-hour/watch/doc-covid-19-damages-lungs-of-patients-showing-no-symptoms-87129669600
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 07, 2020, 07:39:38 PM
  Israel invents one-minute coronavirus breath test

A person blows into a  small tube containing a chip with sensors to trap nano particles in the breath.  The chip is read through spectroscopy.  The presence of SARS-CoV-2 can be detected because it has a specific electromagnetic wave frequency.  90% success rate in trials. 

A quick test could be administered by TSA to screen air travelers. 


http://ajn.timesofisrael.com/israel-invents-one-minute-coronavirus-breath-test/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 07, 2020, 09:03:13 PM

China is working hard in trying to find a vaccine or treatment. Just doing their part to save the world. Trump is going to drop the hammer on them soon.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/fbi-director-unleashes-on-china-in-speech/ar-BB16rXE7?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on July 07, 2020, 09:29:19 PM
Bolsonaro catches the virus.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-brazil/brazils-bolsonaro-catches-coronavirus-shrugs-off-health-risks-idUSKBN2481EK
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 09, 2020, 01:31:15 AM
Meanwhile, infections are definitely on the speedy rise and deaths starting to go up as well.

I don't see a coherent national plan to address the situation, nor how schools will handle students, nor what plans are is for handling the upcoming flu season on top of the growing COVID hospital load.

Does not bode well for our citizens and residents, nor our teetering economy. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 09, 2020, 05:01:40 AM
Meanwhile, infections are definitely on the speedy rise

My home of Florida is considered one of America's  "hot spots."  Our surge of new infections  started one month ago and kept rising.  It hit its peak about two weeks ago, and while it has not declined, it seems to have flattened. Nevertheless, I hesitate to predict if if the rate of new cases stays flat, rises again, or slackens.   The "percent positive test" variable remains troubling. 

 
Quote
...and deaths starting to go up as well.

Au contraire, the number of deaths/day in Florida continues to decline.  I suggest the following reasons:

      1.  The newly infected are younger than seen in April, many being asymptomatic. 
      2.  Therapies have improved.
      3.  Mutation of the virus to more infectious yet less virulent strain. 

Two weeks ago, I wrote the following when the rate of new cases/day hit 9,000.   

____________________________________
     "Let us hope the fatality rate of today's COVID remains low as experienced so far.  The next two weeks will be telling."
____________________________________


That was two weeks ago,  Yet, I am not ready to cheer as the surge was mostly among the young.  Did they go home and infect the vulnerable?


Quote
I don't see a coherent national plan to address the situation...

A reminder to expats:  unlike the European models, public health is largely a state government function.  For example, opening schools is a state/local decision.  Nevertheless, the Feds are very busy:  pushing a fast track plan developing vaccines, augmenting resources,  analyzing data, etc.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 09, 2020, 05:40:05 AM
Gator,

Not for the first time, I wonder at claims you make when the data shows you are ' au contraire'

Florida's 7 day rolling AVE death rate is up,

New cases hit a record on Monday?

The positive for the virus test is at new highs..

The median age for infection is c.40.

ALL I asked Google was "Florida death rate COVID-19".....


SO....is Google lying to you or  me(((?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 09, 2020, 07:52:31 AM
A reminder to expats:  unlike the European models, public health is largely a state government function.  For example, opening schools is a state/local decision.  Nevertheless, the Feds are very busy:  pushing a fast track plan developing vaccines, augmenting resources,  analyzing data, etc.

Gator,

Here, 'states', whether they be countries within EU or regions within EU countries, have same/similar responsibilities and independence as US states do.  National and local governments do however see this as a national and EU issue thus work closely together, especially since this virus does not respect geographical and political borders.

Since you mention it, our lack of coherence is due to a lack of leadership, sort of like each state running around like a chicken with its head cut off.  Heck even at the very top there seems to more contradiction within than a real plan.  Or plans are ignored, criticized by our leader and watered down.

Obviously, the sign that says 'The buck stops here' is no longer present in the Oval Office, replaced with one that states "Not My Problem".
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 09, 2020, 08:00:34 AM
And BTW, expats do care, expats have a voice and expats do vote.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 09, 2020, 08:10:24 AM
Meanwhile, infections are definitely on the speedy rise and deaths starting to go up as well.

I don't see a coherent national plan to address the situation, nor how schools will handle students, nor what plans are is for handling the upcoming flu season on top of the growing COVID hospital load.


The overall weekly deaths continue to drop due to our changing behavior. Less deaths from all illnesses and injuries. While COVID-19 is taking lots of lives, we're saving lives elsewhere. Chart in near the middle of the page is the most important chart that needs to be looked at when making decisions for the nation.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm#dashboard

As far as school issues, you're in the dark because your media wants to keep their readers and viewers ignorant so when schools open up, there is confusion and they can blame it on Trump. Team Trump spent an enormous amount of time thinking how to safely reopen schools. Three recent videos below 1:12 hrs to 5 hrs long containing briefings and round table discussions between White House leadership, disease experts, schools officials, parents and students. There are more school related White House plan videos but these are the three most recent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vWZTPdHtkhI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWl0E4Kkbk0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5b6z5CXCmc
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 09, 2020, 08:24:37 AM
Gator,

Here, 'states', whether they be countries within EU or regions within EU countries, have same/similar responsibilities and independence as US states do.  National and local governments do however see this as a national and EU issue thus work closely together, especially since this virus does not respect geographical and political borders.

Since you mention it, our lack of coherence is due to a lack of leadership, sort of like each state running around like a chicken with its head cut off.  Heck even at the very top there seems to more contradiction within than a real plan.  Or plans are ignored, criticized by our leader and watered down.

Obviously, the sign that says 'The buck stops here' is no longer present in the Oval Office, replaced with one that states "Not My Problem".


So is that the reason why the EU completely and blatantly ignored Italy's plea for help during its dire COVID crisis where they actually played god on who dies and lives? *Lack of cohesion and strong leadership* Yup, I suppose you would know about 'the buck stops here, yadayada' as you lived it... Wonderful system indeed.

:devil:

Quote from: BC
And BTW, expats do care, expats have a voice and expats do vote.

Translation: I'm the kind of guy who only takes the 'good' and never the 'bad'. Nothing like constantly bashing a country I reap rewards from, thus hold on to that 'citizenship' at my leisure, and bail on them when its down.

We get it, BC. Good for you. Good to see you're proud of that. Shame....

Make life easier on yourself dude. Bail on the US citizenship and rid yourself of the 'burden' and live out the rest of your life in Utopia. You can still come back for visits any time you wish...

You reminded me of that fella I met on the flight back to LA from the UK. He's a Persian descent holding a British passport. He had so much vile things to say about the US that you can see veins on his face when he tries to spell out things he thinks make the US the worst country in the world.

Pretty amusing when I asked him why he's flying to LA...his answer was he works there and the money is too darn good to pass up.

:ROFL:

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 09, 2020, 09:06:44 AM
So is that the reason why the EU completely and blatantly ignored Italy's plea for help during its dire COVID crisis where they actually played god on who dies and lives? *Lack of cohesion and strong leadership* Yup, I suppose you would know about 'the buck stops here, yadayada' as you lived it... Wonderful system indeed.

Despite your critique, some even warranted, leaders did manage to get their act together, beating the virus down to manageable levels and keeping them there, while back home the cat was let out of the bag and is wreaking havoc again.  We let it slip away.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 09, 2020, 09:23:59 AM
Re-reading your post GQ, I also see you only shoot the messenger and do not counter with any facts to defend the actions of our leaders as being prudent, effective or worthwhile.

Does that mean all is hunky-dory with our domestic approach to resolving this virus crisis?  If so, please do illuminate with a few facts as I am not seeing it at all.

Where is the proof in the pudding?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 09, 2020, 09:30:21 AM
Despite your critique, some even warranted, leaders did manage to get their act together, beating the virus down to manageable levels and keeping them there, while back home the cat was let out of the bag and is wreaking havoc again.  We let it slip away.

*WE*?

Simply because the liberal media completely omitted laying the cause of the rise on infection being largely due to their politically-driven, strongly encouraged, liberal-fueled make-believe social unrest - doesn't mean 'we' let anything slip away. Your obvious show of disdain to the current administration and 'pseudo-concern' is pretty darn dramatic, yet hardly compelling. It's just that, some of us aren't as gullible. Many who lives here can easily see the 'forest' through the trees, BC. You can easily see this had you wake up your mornings in the US instead of consuming *facts* from the internet.

There's that stubbornly silly correlative dynamic between enhanced and heightened number of testing, to infection rate to case fatality rate. To many of us, that 'reality' is painting a far more telling picture than any the MSM primetime 'boogeyman' campfire stories can ever inspire.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 09, 2020, 09:33:05 AM
Re-reading your post GQ, I also see you only shoot the messenger and do not counter with any facts to defend the actions of our leaders as being prudent, effective or worthwhile.

Does that mean all is hunky-dory with our domestic approach to resolving this virus crisis?  If so, please do illuminate with a few facts as I am not seeing it at all.

Where is the proof in the pudding?

What messenger are you referring to, BC? You? What's the message do you *think* is valid enough to be shot at? At your current location, do you honestly believe any of your 'message' have an ounce of validity?

Seriously.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on July 09, 2020, 09:46:24 AM
 
Au contraire, the number of deaths/day in Florida continues to decline.  I suggest the following reasons:

      1.  The newly infected are younger than seen in April, many being asymptomatic. 
      2.  Therapies have improved.
      3.  Mutation of the virus to more infectious yet less virulent strain. 

Some additional tidbits that bolster your case

10% of Florida's Population has been tested

Graph presentation by Gov. Ron DeSantis
(http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/APP-070820-FL-Chart-3.jpg)


(http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/APP-070820-FL-Chart-2.jpg)


(http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/APP-070820-FL-Chart-1.jpg)


(http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/APP-070720-Covid-Deaths.jpg)


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 09, 2020, 11:44:14 AM
http://covidusa.net/?state=Florida (http://covidusa.net/?state=Florida)

Yesterday there were 9,989 new confirmed* cases, 0 recoveries, 48 deaths. The current 7-day rolling average of 9,256 new cases/day grew 130.6% from 14 days ago, at that rate in Florida...


(http://i.imgur.com/eXXwxpT.png)


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 09, 2020, 01:18:10 PM
Gator,

Not for the first time, I wonder at claims you make when the data shows you are ' au contraire'

SO....is Google lying to you or  me(((?

I don't know your sources, yet I rely on Florida Dept of Health dashboard.  Tests from labs (mostly private) are reported through the counties and tabulated by the state.   Hospital statistics are also tabulated. 

http://experience.arcgis.com/experience/96dd742462124fa0b38ddedb9b25e429

The first screen "Florida Cases" shows bar chart of deaths in lower right.  Notice the use of the term "resident."  Perhaps this explains the difference.  Perhaps there are other explanations.  For example, a citizen action organization compiles and reports COVID statistics, which differ from FL DOH's stats.  This rival dashboard adds antibody tests to the FL DOH"s totals for positive tests.   

http://experience.arcgis.com/experience/7572b118dc3c48d885d1c643c195314e/

This rival dashboard  reports interesting data on ICU bed availability (over 1,200 ICU beds are open in the state today).   The issue with ICU is not the number of beds, but the capacity of the ICU staff over time to care for a large and long stream of patients.   
 

If you read my posts carefully, something you rarely do, I implied the jury is still out regarding the trajectory of the infection.  And sure enough, deaths ticked up today and yesterday.




   

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 09, 2020, 01:32:24 PM
I don't know your sources

Yes, you do.. unless YOU posted without reading my putting Beel right , too, data above ..

If you read my posts carefully, something you rarely do, I implied the jury is still out regarding the trajectory of the infection.  And sure enough, deaths ticked up today and yesterday.

'Sure'..is someone else posting as you?

 
Au contraire, the number of deaths/day in Florida continues to decline.

As you can now see, I read your post, (and 'claim' re declining numbers)  just fine ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 09, 2020, 02:03:25 PM

The first screen "Florida Cases" shows bar chart of deaths in lower right.  Notice the use of the term "resident."  Perhaps this explains the difference.  Perhaps there are other explanations. 
   

Fine print:

The Deaths by Day chart shows the total number of Florida residents with confirmed COVID-19 that died on each calendar day (12:00 AM - 11:59 PM). Death data often has significant delays in reporting, so data within the past two weeks will be updated frequently.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on July 09, 2020, 02:38:39 PM
To many of us, that 'reality' is painting a far more telling picture than any the MSM primetime 'boogeyman' campfire stories can ever inspire.
Although the virus is probably pretty severe and deadly for many, I take very few precautions. Now if some idiot is coughing around me I am getting the hell away from him, and I like a little social distance anyway so that isn't much of change.   

My old friends from when I was little all want to get together via ZOOM. Normally we go out to eat.   Several are completely bought into the virus to the point where they are isolating, masking and gloving up.  My own thought remains we pretty much all are going to wind up getting it at some point unless live a lifestyle in isolation.  Whatever happens happens, that isn't how I'd like it, but it is how it is, from my viewpoint.

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 09, 2020, 02:52:14 PM
Yes, you do.. unless YOU posted without reading my putting Beel right , too, data above ..


I used official Florida DOH stats.  You don't know the sources from which your source derived its data. 

So we have "official"  (me) and "unknown" (you).

The bar chart in my official FL DOH source shows declining deaths.  I am not sure of the meaning of your WTF term "Average Deaths per Day Over Time." 

Try using epidemiology terms such as CFR.  The Florida CFR is dropping. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 09, 2020, 03:12:53 PM
Fine print:

The Deaths by Day chart shows the total number of Florida residents with confirmed COVID-19 that died on each calendar day (12:00 AM - 11:59 PM). Death data often has significant delays in reporting, so data within the past two weeks will be updated frequently.

Eagle eyes!

Yes, the deaths are based on death certificates.  Think about the implications that method of data compilation has for timeliness and accuracy.   That's one of the reasons why I say the jury is still out. 

Some deaths reported today were data dumps from deaths that happened maybe a week or two earlier, maybe even longer ago.  And some of today's deaths may not be reported for a couple of weeks if not longer.   

The citizen action organization's dashboard elaborates about data shortcomings, including data on deaths: 

Quote
Additionally, DOH does not provide the date of death for any case. The chart on the now-disabled DOH dshboard showing resident deaths by date is just that - residents only by date of death for cases where a death certificate has been received and the date of death verified by the state.

The CDC warns "delays in reporting a person's death to the state can range from 1 week to 8 weeks or more, depending on the jurisdiction and cause of death."


According to internal DOH records, deaths reported by DOH were reported an average 7-21 days after the COVID-19 positive person died (date from March through mid-June, with some deaths reported as late as 44 days after death. 

http://experience.arcgis.com/experience/7572b118dc3c48d885d1c643c195314e/     (click on bottom barrier:  "Notes and Warnings")


Let's discuss comparability of data.    Are death statistics from other states derived differently such as to make them more accurate and current, or do they have the same limitations?   I assume the same, so we are comparing apples with apples.   

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 09, 2020, 03:32:07 PM

Here, 'states', whether they be countries within EU or regions within EU countries, have same/similar responsibilities and independence as US states do.  National and local governments do however see this as a national and EU issue thus work closely together, especially since this virus does not respect geographical and political borders.

Being a pandemic it is more than the EU, more than the US, and the worse is still to come for many countries.  Maybe we should work with the WHO, an apolitical, functional WHO!!!!


Quote
...sort of like each state running around like a chicken with its head cut off. 


Most governors should take exception to your simile.  However, even after 3-4 months of managing this pandemic, we still have critical problems at the state and local levels. 

For example, a huge limitation in Florida is contact tracing.  News reports suggest a significant number of positive test cases have never been called by an agency to determine with whom the infected individuals have encountered in travel, work, family, etc.    The Miami-Dade County region is the most infected area in Florida, and has a team of 200 contact tracers.  The Mayor wants an "Army" and the Governor disputes the need for an "Army."

http://www.local10.com/news/local/2020/07/07/desantis-belittles-experts-warning-of-need-for-army-of-contact-tracers-in-miami-dade/




Quote
Obviously, the sign that says 'The buck stops here' is no longer present in the Oval Office, replaced with one that states "Not My Problem".

Trump does not say such nor act that way.  If you have evidence he did, please.....

The pandemic is everyone's problem, individuals more than government, whether federal, state, or local.   

If Trump has all the authority and power you keep ascribing to him, we would never have a sanctuary city, or a CHAZ, or a debate about how to open schools. or..... The battles are fought locally.  The Feds are needed for augmenting resources, speeding the R&D of vaccines and therapies, monitoring and consultation.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 09, 2020, 10:23:02 PM
I used official Florida DOH stats.  You don't know the sources from which your source derived its data. 

It is listed - if you followed my link,,

So we have "official"  (me) and "unknown" (you).

Then when your 'official' info catches up with mine, as it assuredly will .. I wonder what your 'excuse' will be ?

In the meantime, new cases went up and the deaths will surely follow ((


I note you are still trying to 'defend' 'Trampu's' stance on this pandemic ..from quitting WHO, and his misguided predictions as to the virus' effects on US citizens to suggestions ( that US intelligence don't support ) of this being a Chinese plan, it's been fail  after fail..

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 09, 2020, 11:13:31 PM
Being a pandemic it is more than the EU, more than the US, and the worse is still to come for many countries.  Maybe we should work with the WHO, an apolitical, functional WHO!!!!

Sure, lets learn from our mistakes and move forward instead of backwards.  Was there CYA involved? It does seem that way and I'm glad we're finding out, but what we do thereafter is what counts.  We can't cry over spilt milk, we have to clean the mess and concentrate all resources on combatting this virus. When spilt, usually some milk remains in the bottle. Lets use it instead of throwing a half-full bottle away.

One incident that sticks in my mind is the first lockdown here in Italy.  Localized, folks still working with some precautions.  The folks that came over from China told officials it won't work that way.  Sure, it seems the virus originated in China, their officials may well have done all kind of things to save face or whatever.. but they did bring their experience with them and a real lockdown was implemented which looking back today was very effective.  Had we thrown out the bottle after the spill we would be as bad off here as in the US nowadays.


Quote
Most governors should take exception to your simile.  However, even after 3-4 months of managing this pandemic, we still have critical problems at the state and local levels.
 

Notably, again, filled ER's, hospitals and ICU's.  We missed some very good lessons learned overseas and the US northeast that did provide dramatic results in not only flattening the curve but starve the virus as well.

Quote
For example, a huge limitation in Florida is contact tracing.  News reports suggest a significant number of positive test cases have never been called by an agency to determine with whom the infected individuals have encountered in travel, work, family, etc.    The Miami-Dade County region is the most infected area in Florida, and has a team of 200 contact tracers.  The Mayor wants an "Army" and the Governor disputes the need for an "Army."

At the current rate an impossible task.  Time, resources and training is needed to build an army.  That bus has passed, but let us do it anyway in preparation for the day that numbers decline enough and become manageable.  "Oh by then we won't need it " they say! - Just as summer was supposed to kill the virus for us...  An army was and is still needed, even if it is plan B.  We missed the bus the first time around.  Will we miss it again, even during the many months it will take to go through the logistics of vaccinating the nation whenever a good vaccine is available? 


Quote
Trump does not say such nor act that way.  If you have evidence he did, please.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8g8ZzhRiag

Quote
The pandemic is everyone's problem, individuals more than government, whether federal, state, or local.   

Which is exactly why a leader and not blamer is needed.

Quote
If Trump has all the authority and power you keep ascribing to him, we would never have a sanctuary city, or a CHAZ, or a debate about how to open schools. or..... The battles are fought locally.  The Feds are needed for augmenting resources, speeding the R&D of vaccines and therapies, monitoring and consultation.     

In a situation where actions in one state affect others, there is no room for disparity.  But alas, even the reopening plan proposed by CDC and the administration was bashed by no other than our president insisting states should 'liberate' themselves.  Liberate from what I ask... to flaunt reopening guidelines?  Ditto recently for school reopening guidelines with the CDC finally taking a firm stand despite criticism by our president.  'Do as I say and not as I do' comes to mind.  I'm quite sure all this is helping our nation work in a cohesive fashion to battle the virus :/  The role of a federal government is to lead the charge when a crisis goes beyond state borders.  If it were otherwise, each state would have its own state CDC instead of one delegated to serve the nation.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 10, 2020, 05:56:33 AM
Then when your 'official' info catches up with mine, as it assuredly will .. I wonder what your 'excuse' will be ?

If your data are so much better, explain the title of your source's chart "Average Deaths per Day Over Time"  and how it is calculated.   


Quote
In the meantime, new cases went up and the deaths will surely follow ((

Agreed!   Yet as seen in FL DOH's bar chart, it has not happened yet.   The bar chart is through July, and the daily reported additional deaths since then are as follows:   46,63, 48, and 18 ( vs. 6,000 to 12,000 new positive tests in the surge). 

We agree more deaths are coming.  The concern from my perspective, as a senior residing in Florida, is the rate of increase.  Will the death rate increase the same as rate of new cases?   I infer you will say "yes."  If so,  deaths would increase by 900%.   OMG, I am going to die!   

If you were honorable, I would offer a wager, yet you have proven in spades your dishonor.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on July 10, 2020, 06:01:28 AM
Worth the 17 minutes it takes to watch. Of course those devoid of common sense just won't "get it". Obviously, common sense isn't so common these days but for those that can't grasp it, carry on and blame Trump

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QxlvqiaYCM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QxlvqiaYCM)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 10, 2020, 06:49:25 AM

Notably, again, filled ER's, hospitals and ICU's.

Hospitals in Florida have been near capacity not because of COVID but because of performing the backlog of many elective procedures delayed during the lockdown.  Reports suggest 10-40% of the current patients are COVID.   

Quote
Will we miss it again, even during the many months it will take to go through the logistics of vaccinating the nation whenever a good vaccine is available? 

The issue is cost.  Miami-Dade Mayor says 200 is not enough; he wants an "army."  Extrapolate that to the nation, and when the pandemic ends, what

I suggested earlier that as one part of the NEXT national preparation plan, each state should train a cadre of current state employees in contact tracing, to be deployed temporarily during the next lockdown.   


Quote

Which is exactly why a leader and not blamer is needed.

1.  Trump spoke the truth, and Trump provided Cuomo ventilators, new hospitals, etc.   
2.  There is more to blame than in this clip; in fact, everyone is at blame. 
3.  Obama never blamed others?

Quote
In a situation where actions in one state affect others, there is no room for disparity.  But alas, even the reopening plan proposed by CDC and the administration was bashed by no other than our president insisting states should 'liberate' themselves.  Liberate from what I ask... to flaunt reopening guidelines?  Ditto recently for school reopening guidelines with the CDC finally taking a firm stand despite criticism by our president.  'Do as I say and not as I do' comes to mind.  I'm quite sure all this is helping our nation work in a cohesive fashion to battle the virus :/ 



Rather than belaboring facts and perceptions, let's summarize by saying I disagree with your partisan view.  The pandemic is not over.  The 2021 President will surely order a bipartisan commission to investigate the COVID pandemic. 

Quote
  The role of a federal government is to lead the charge when a crisis goes beyond state borders.  If it were otherwise, each state would have its own state CDC instead of one delegated to serve the nation.

Sounds like BIG NATIONAL GOVERNMENT  with complete sovereignty over all aspects of governing life.   Founding fathers are rolling over in their graves and their statues are teetering. 

Given CDC has only 10,000 employees, it can not take on the role of BIG GOVERNMENT.  In comparison, FL DOH has 17,000 employees, with units doing what CDC would be doing.  Also, as expected in a federal republic, CDC and the states have been working together.  Consider examples of such:

      -  The CDC has an office in each of the 50 states.
      -  One of CDC's primary missions is monitoring spread of infectious disease, and they accomplish this largely by compiling data and statistics reported by county health departments. 
      -  Another CDC mission is to provide scientific assistance to states when needed such as in epidemics. 
   

The frontline soldiers in the war against COVID are the  doctors, nurses and scientists treating patients.  Their activities are monitored by the county health departments, extending up to the states and then to the CDC.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 10, 2020, 08:00:05 AM
Worth the 17 minutes it takes to watch. Of course those devoid of common sense just won't "get it". Obviously, common sense isn't so common these days but for those that can't grasp it, carry on and blame Trump


WOW FP...too much logic and sense in that video. I can' stand it. Besides, in a leaderless country such as ours, facts can only be found in our primetime mainstream media. These types of information just cannot aired in the truth teller like CNN. Can you imagine any story that does not imply that all the devastation were witnessing is NOT because of Trump?!? That's blasphemy!

Everything IS indubitably his FAULT!!!! Not Anthony Faulty!

I mean just this morning, I found out CNN already have a team of panicking reporters running around all over Florida reporting live how that state is desperately clinging on for any vestige of hope - my GAWD! Florida is DOOMED!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on July 10, 2020, 08:10:12 AM
WOW FP...too much logic and sense in that video. I can' stand it. Besides, in a leaderless country such as ours, facts can only be found in our primetime mainstream media. These types of information just cannot aired in the truth teller like CNN. Can you imagine any story that does not imply that all the devastation were witnessing is NOT because of Trump?!? That's blasphemy!

Everything IS indubitably his FAULT!!!! Not Anthony Faulty!

I mean just this morning, I found out CNN already have a team of panicking reporters running around all over Florida reporting live how that state is desperately clinging on for any vestige of hope - my GAWD! Florida is DOOMED!

Yeah, no shat. We're all doomed is the narrative and that's the MSM continual 24 hour news cycle. It reminds me of the old saying that if you "tell a lie often enough it becomes the truth".
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 10, 2020, 08:15:04 AM
 
If you were honorable, I would offer a wager, yet you have proven in spades your dishonor.

Here we go,

1/ You posted data ( again ) that isn't supporting what's happening, now, in YOUR state.

2/ You bring up a wager you LOST and suggest *I'm* 'untrustworthy ..  FACT ..  'Trampu' inherited a recovering economy and I PROVED to you that other nation's economies reflected the US recovery ...

Fact is 'Trampu' was calling on governors to get people back to work and as many warned .. too early ..


http://www.cityam.com/us-coronavirus-cases-rise-by-record-60565-in-single-day/ (http://www.cityam.com/us-coronavirus-cases-rise-by-record-60565-in-single-day/)

Stay safe.






Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 10, 2020, 10:08:42 AM
Here we go,

1/ You posted data ( again ) that isn't supporting what's happening, now, in YOUR state.

And you can not explain the chart you used.   Your evidence is dismissed as both unsubstantiated and indecipherable. 

Instead, let's go  to the official FL DOH data, the same data compiled by CDC (maybe your source, but you don't know).   Today's report (July 9) shows an uptick:

Additional Tests Performed:         64,000  (cumulative total of 2.4 million tests)
New Positive Cases:                    12,000 (close to record)
Reported Hospitalizations:               435
Additional Deaths Reported:              93

The positivity of testing is nearly 20%.  So "community spreading" is still very active.  This is the situation  consistent with so many asymptomatic cases, who are infectious and don't know it.       



Quote
2/ You bring up a wager you LOST and suggest *I'm* 'untrustworthy ..  FACT ..  'Trampu' inherited a recovering economy and I PROVED to you that other nation's economies reflected the US recovery ...

I would say "figures don't lie, but liars can figure."  Except you do not crunch numbers.  Instead, you select irrelevant charts and say "See, I am right!"

This demands a response.  Later.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 10, 2020, 10:51:10 AM
so Florida, which in some areas have one out of five corona tests coming back positive, up 500% from just a few weeks ago...
now wants to completely reopen all schools at the end of next month...
with NO PRECAUTIONS, not even masks!
nothing! like there is NO VIRUS! so why worry...

the great prophet Krimster predicts (waves hands...)

as soon as the air conditioners are turned on kids will start to spread Corona to each other and to teachers
and then start to bring it home to their families...

and guess what dear readers?
it’ll be the start of flu season then....
hmmmm hmmmmmmmmm.....

now do ya see why the Germans called Americans Dummkopfs!!!
cuz that’s what they are!!
buncha freakin idiots!!!

I mean WTF, how dedicated to wall streets financial interests do you have to be
to keep the schools open
so all the millions of women making 12$ per hour as essential workers have free child care
because this population is the backbone of the American labor force
one out of four of this group will lose their job and health insurance by the end of the year
and a disproportionate number of them contract Corona
but like soldiers in a war, we will make the sacrifice in lives
to defend above all the interests of the one tenth of one percent
at the direct expense in lives of everyone else....

so tell me why people in this country haven't revolted in prioritizing hedge fund money over their lives
do lives matter or does the DJI matter more
do any of you know how much the Federal Reserve has spent just on purchasing the 6 largest DJI Tech Stocks?
compared to how much has been spent on retrofitting schools to make them safer this fall?

see what I mean about priorities

this is a huge mistake

so what we are seeing now is a second peak that has been caused by reopening too soon
as I earlier predicted...
in terms of the total number of Corona cases
the total that took 4 months to happen with the first peak
will happen in just two months in this peak
and when the third peak starts at the end of September
then this amount will happen in just a month!!!

AND...
this means "The End of the World As We Know It!"

dear reader, as an aid to your understanding
please consider the chart below that illustrates my plight

I am probably about a year away from living in a post-apocalypse society
where a third of the people have to line up each week for food
hmmm hmmmm....
but you can already feel what's gonna happen here...
guns are now openly seen everywhere here
and everyone is tense and angry
the brief calm before the approaching storm
animals are taking shelter
 






Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on July 10, 2020, 10:56:48 AM
This is something that needs developing.

http://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-07-10/injection-prevent-coronavirus-feds-manufacturers-fail-to-act

Hopefully it could prevent doctors and nurses treating covid patients from becoming infected.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 10, 2020, 11:47:00 AM
This is something that needs developing.

http://www.latimes.com/science/story/2020-07-10/injection-prevent-coronavirus-feds-manufacturers-fail-to-act

Hopefully it could prevent doctors and nurses treating covid patients from becoming infected.

If those scientists can't get the American government to buy into their proposal, they can go propose it to other nations. How many other nations are adopting it?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 11, 2020, 12:07:03 AM
Billy,

Many nations don't need to take this step as they have been able to bring infection rates down to very low, manageable and almost 'green zone' levels, buying time until a good vaccine comes along.  As soon as trials are completed they'll be able to better evaluate the need vs risks for such therapies.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 11, 2020, 01:27:40 AM
Hospitals in Florida have been near capacity not because of COVID but because of performing the backlog of many elective procedures delayed during the lockdown.  Reports suggest 10-40% of the current patients are COVID.

You mean Florida does not know how many Covid patients are in hospitals and ICU's?  Italy has 844 in hospital and 65 in ICU.  Nothing better than 'Reports suggest' and a 30 point spread?  Of course, hospitals fill with other cases, they weren't built for Covid.

 

Quote
The issue is cost.  Miami-Dade Mayor says 200 is not enough; he wants an "army."  Extrapolate that to the nation, and when the pandemic ends, what

With millions receiving unemployment benefits, many of whom would be very qualified to take on track and trace jobs what would be the additional cost?  - Almost negligible.

Quote
I suggested earlier that as one part of the NEXT national preparation plan, each state should train a cadre of current state employees in contact tracing, to be deployed temporarily during the next lockdown.   


Wow.. that's pretty asstute [sic].  Does this mean Florida has thrown in the towel and is not going to try and bring infections down 'THIS time'? How do you think 'manageable levels' are maintained?


Quote
1.  Trump spoke the truth, and Trump provided Cuomo ventilators, new hospitals, etc.   
2.  There is more to blame than in this clip; in fact, everyone is at blame
3.  Obama never blamed others?

Indeed.  The result of everyone thinking only about themselves and not being able to face this challenge as the United States.  This points directly at a failure in leadership from the top and all the way down to individual citizens and residents.


Quote
Rather than belaboring facts and perceptions, let's summarize by saying I disagree with your partisan view.  The pandemic is not over.  The 2021 President will surely order a bipartisan commission to investigate the COVID pandemic.


Yes, lets quit beating about the bush and face the facts at the end of this post.

Sounds like BIG NATIONAL GOVERNMENT  with complete sovereignty over all aspects of governing life.   Founding fathers are rolling over in their graves and their statues are teetering. 

OMG! Big government!!!!  A federal government is there to address national needs.  Is the Federal reserve system that manages the almighty buck big government?  Should each state start printing money?  How about the IRS, SSA, FEMA and all the other national BIG GOVERNMENT organizations that support states and citizens and other national policies?  Getting a grip on national issues and disasters is exactly what our government is about.  Heck we even have a National Weather Service.  NHC does a better job tracking hurricanes than we are doing tracking this virus.  But yeah, disband 'em all, that will kill the virus for sure!!

Quote
Given CDC has only 10,000 employees, it can not take on the role of BIG GOVERNMENT.  In comparison, FL DOH has 17,000 employees, with units doing what CDC would be doing.  Also, as expected in a federal republic, CDC and the states have been working together.  Consider examples of such:

      -  The CDC has an office in each of the 50 states.
      -  One of CDC's primary missions is monitoring spread of infectious disease, and they accomplish this largely by compiling data and statistics reported by county health departments. 
      -  Another CDC mission is to provide scientific assistance to states when needed such as in epidemics. 

Their biggliest job is to develop national strategies and guidelines to address health crises.  Why have they not been successful at that task?
   
Quote
The frontline soldiers in the war against COVID are the  doctors, nurses and scientists treating patients.  Their activities are monitored by the county health departments, extending up to the states and then to the CDC.   

Absolutely wrong.  They are the cleanup crew for the mess we are making as much as a MASH hospital is in a war zone.  True Heroes nonetheless.   Where is the offensive force against this virus?  That is where soldiers should be and not on stretchers and coffins.

Gator,

We can beat about the bush all day and all night.  Nothing, absolutely nothing changes the fact that many tens of thousands of our elderly, middle age, young, teen and even infants have and will continue to die needlessly because of our inability to face this challenge as a nation.  Death is not the only consequence as many will suffer with future disabilities.  Nothing, absolutely nothing changes the fact that our president has not been able to lead the charge against this virus effectively and achieve a level of success that is comparable with our peers.  As others live, work and play in relative safety we squander our time, wasting our resources on going nowhere but backwards, prolonging the pain and riding on a prayer that the magic bullet will arrive before we get sick ourselves.  This is a pitiful state for what is touted to be the best, most powerful, richest country on earth.  Any thought to the contrary is denial, pure and simple.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 11, 2020, 05:34:29 AM
Gator,

We can beat about the bush all day and all night. 

Let's not.  Responding to a "wall of words" would necessitate a new wall.  And would deteriorate to politics, thereby missing the scientific points.  Worse, it could unleash more false accusations such as:

Quote
But yeah, disband 'em all, that will kill the virus for sure!!

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 11, 2020, 05:52:31 AM
The COVID situation in Florida certainly worsened, and is now being reflected in hospitals.   

I have two golfing friends who are ER physicians.  The burden of new COVID critical cases has required one hospital to convert some ordinary beds into ICU beds. 

The general opinion is those thousands of new asymptomatic cases each day are unknowingly infecting the fragile members of their families.  Some are intubated with low prospects for survival, grappling with end-of-life options.

My son and I thought it best not to meet, even with masks.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 11, 2020, 07:57:53 AM

My son and I thought it best not to meet, even with masks.

Gator,

During the lockdown, my son and I had to make the very same decision.  In addition, we were also not able to fly over to be with my father during his last days and now we are having to wait until it is safe enough us to properly lay him to rest and spend time with Mom.  Maybe sometime next year if we're lucky and a good vaccine comes about... Fortunately, my son and I will be able to spend time with each other in a couple of weeks as travel in both our countries has normalized with very low infection rates.

Even though we all keep in touch over the 'net, it's tough.  Nothing can replace a real hug.  I hope you and your son can get together soon for one, or better three.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 11, 2020, 08:01:57 AM
Let's not.  Responding to a "wall of words" would necessitate a new wall.  And would deteriorate to politics, thereby missing the scientific points.  Worse, it could unleash more false accusations such as:

Well, if we'd quit the damned testing we wouldn't have a problem ;)

Not politics, but our leadership, that is totally missing skipping the 'scientific points'.

'totally' is the result of frustration, but you get the point.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 11, 2020, 08:40:48 AM
Billy,

Many nations don't need to take this step as they have been able to bring infection rates down to very low, manageable and almost 'green zone' levels, buying time until a good vaccine comes along.  As soon as trials are completed they'll be able to better evaluate the need vs risks for such therapies.


90% of the States have kept the infection rates low too. It's not worth shutting down all schools and most businesses in the country over a few States experiencing outbreaks. What is Europe doing? Will they be having schools open this Fall? Beaches,. parks and bars closed? Are they shutting down a higher percentage of businesses compared to America? Only the UK is testing more people per capita than America so most of Europe doesn't have a testing advantage. What do you think Europe is doing that America isn't doing to keep infections and deaths lower?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 11, 2020, 08:54:24 AM
The COVID situation in Florida certainly worsened, and is now being reflected in hospitals.   

I have two golfing friends who are ER physicians.  The burden of new COVID critical cases has required one hospital to convert some ordinary beds into ICU beds. 


Areas in Texas have ordered refrigerated trucks since morgues are filling up. Also learned from the article Texas does not publicly report probable coronavirus deaths, which means patients who have died without testing positive for COVID-19 could go uncounted. More Houston residents are also dying at home before they can make it to a hospital. That means the death toll is likely higher than the state’s official count.

http://www.texastribune.org/2020/07/10/texas-coronavirus-deaths-morgues-capacity/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 11, 2020, 09:09:58 AM
90% of the States have kept the infection rates low too.

http://rt.live   Sure?

Quote
It's not worth shutting down all schools and most businesses in the country over a few States experiencing outbreaks. What is Europe doing? Will they be having schools open this Fall? Beaches,. parks and bars closed? Are they shutting down a higher percentage of businesses compared to America? Only the UK is testing more people per capita than America so most of Europe doesn't have a testing advantage. What do you think Europe is doing that America isn't doing to keep infections and deaths lower?

It's not what most of Europe is doing, it is what they did, which was a much stricter form of lockdown and planned re-opening to not only level the curve but beat it down to low levels of infection that can be effectively tested, traced and isolated.  Schools will be opening her with halved class sizes and 80 thousand more teachers being hired along with other physical measures.  We're off to the beach tomorrow for a change, bars and restaurants are open for business with only a few prudent measures in place. Businesses are normalizing, folks are back working. Travelling between most countries is allowed and quite safe.  Folks from other countries are being tested and if necessary turned away or travel from that country blocked. Been this way for a month now.

What you don't seem or want to realize is that the US, today could enjoy the same freedom and safety as is present in many other countries.  The push to open early, before numbers dropped was a YUGE mistake.

Sometimes I get the feeling you have absorbed very little of the discussions here.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 11, 2020, 09:27:08 AM

It's not what most of Europe is doing, it is what they did, which was a much stricter form of lockdown and planned re-opening to not only level the curve but beat it down to low levels of infection that can be effectively tested, traced and isolated.  Schools will be opening her with halved class sizes and 80 thousand more teachers being hired along with other physical measures.  We're off to the beach tomorrow for a change, bars and restaurants are open for business with only a few prudent measures in place. Businesses are normalizing, folks are back working. Travelling between most countries is allowed and quite safe.  Folks from other countries are being tested and if necessary turned away or travel from that country blocked. Been this way for a month now.

What you don't seem or want to realize is that the US, today could enjoy the same freedom and safety as is present in many other countries.  The push to open early, before numbers dropped was a YUGE mistake.

Sometimes I get the feeling you have absorbed very little of the discussions here.

You guys are pretty much doing what we are doing. Don't get too comfortable with your low numbers. We all started with low numbers before they exploded. You guys slowed down in testing while America increased testing so that will affect the perception of infections rates/R factor. It will take years before the results are in to see who damaged their economies the most. Saving a few lives is important but not at the expense of ruining all the lives of the living. There has to be a balance and as long as I seen that America isn't above the threshold for what we expect in weekly deaths from all causes, I'm fine with the direction we are going. Based off America's actions, we have lessened other illnesses and injuries that lead to death while combating the spread of COVID-19.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm#dashboard
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 11, 2020, 10:02:46 AM
You guys are pretty much doing what we are doing. Don't get too comfortable with your low numbers. We all started with low numbers before they exploded.

No, absolutely not.

(http://i.postimg.cc/MKcsWs17/Screen-Shot-2020-07-11-at-19-02-00.png)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 11, 2020, 10:40:33 AM
You guys slowed down in testing while America increased testing so that will affect the perception of infections rates/R factor.

Testing hasn't slowed, 45,000 in the last 24 hours with 276 positives, well under 1% which includes those that entered Italy from other countries accounting for a notable portion.  You can bet each and every one of those 276 cases are resulting in track and trace efforts to find any contacts, and their contacts, and their contacts etc..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 11, 2020, 10:51:46 AM
I'm fine with the direction we are going. Based off America's actions, we have lessened other illnesses and injuries that lead to death while combating the spread of COVID-19.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm#dashboard


Really?  Read the fine print from your source.  You are seeing far less than half of what is really happening.

(http://i.postimg.cc/pX3bJ52H/Screen-Shot-2020-07-11-at-19-44-54.png)

Quote
This delay can range from 1 week to 8 weeks or more, depending on the jurisdiction and cause of death.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 11, 2020, 01:33:17 PM

Really?  Read the fine print from your source.  You are seeing far less than half of what is really happening.




You are new to the chart. I've been watching chart movement for the past month. I read the fine print but there will be very few deaths added to the count after 10 days so it's only going to be a very small increase later on. America's total deaths from all causes, including old age, has decreased sharply and we are below the threshold of what it's predicted to be for this time of year based on historical averages. COVID-19 is killing many Americans but we are saving lives elsewhere so no reason to panic and stay hiding. By maintaining certain changes to our behavior and with periodic lock downs to certain parts of the country, we can manage so there's no reason to keep the whole country closed.


I just came back from a construction meeting in the next door county. Less populated cities and lots of Conservatives live there. Big difference from the county I live in which includes Seattle. City inspectors and men represented other contractors didn't wear masks and shook my hand. In my county everybody is wearing masks and nobody shakes hands. Of course my county is more densely populated so people will alter their behavior as necessary. On the drive back to home, I passed a motel used to house infected people who doesn't need a hospital. It's closed but will probably be reopened if there's another outbreak. There's no reason for Trump to announce a complete shut down of the nation and affect my life because of what is going on in Texas and Florida.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 11, 2020, 01:48:55 PM
It is no longer about Texas and Florida.  Both are foregone conclusions.  It is about where we invite the virus next to feast and wreak its havoc.

Sounds like you extended an invite to our invisible guest that thrives on attitudes such as yours.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 11, 2020, 04:38:21 PM
Sounds like you extended an invite to our invisible guest that thrives on attitudes such as yours.


Maybe the virus prefers your attitude and it wants people to stop work, stop education, hide forever which would ruin economies, diminish quality of life and increase chances of war. Are you sure you're about saving American lives and not promoting America to shut down which would ruin the quality of life for the majority? I showed you the chart of what America expects to lose each week. As long as we don't go beyond the threshold, we'll be okay. For the areas experiencing outbreaks, only those areas need to shut down. When it comes to deaths per capita, there are 42 States that did better than the European nations of Belgium, Italy, UK, Spain, Andorra, San Marino and Sweden. The 8 States that didn't do a good job were run by Democrats.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 12, 2020, 12:04:51 AM
Billy,

I see you have determined that the virus has a brain, and beyond that can read the mind of its host, determine political leanings.

The virus thrives better in places with high population density and folks come into contact with each other more often.

With the exception of Phoenix, Dallas/Ft Worth and the Twin Cities area the majority of folks that reside in their respective metro areas lean democrat.  Count independents and one can say with authority that republicans are a minority in metro areas and cities.

Are these few metro areas that lean republican, or even close really doing better than others today?  How about the other way around... are most metro areas that have more democrats doing worse or better than republican?  Considering the new epicentres hosting the virus, how are they doing in comparison today? How do they lean politically?

Your hypotheses don't work out well in the reality of the today and now do they?  Well, I got news for you, the virus is here to stay, not because who or where we are, but because of our misguided actions and inaction.

Keep your eye on the charts as this, unfortunately, is only the beginning.  We as a nation were effective at slowing down the virus for the same amount of time most countries in Europe were 90 days.  What we did not do as a nation is beat the virus while we had the advantage of momentum.  It's back running wild now not because it is stronger or smarter than us, but because of our own complacency and irresponsibility.  We did not help our neighbour and instead said 'screw them'... It's not me so all is ok.

You and others that think like you are a large part of the problem BillyB.  In fact, the whole problem.  We have the capacity to stop the virus in its tracks right now, this very moment if we had the will to do so.  If others can do it we can too.

Instead of taking it on the chin, to get up in 45 days and learn to go about our business with prudence for another 45, we somehow insist on a slow and very prolonged death by a thousand cuts.  The only factor we cannot change is time, and we've squandered it, farting around dreaming of some easier, softer way that will somehow save the day whilst defending an infallible image that only appears in the mirror.

We had the time and resources to handle the virus much better than ANY other country on the planet but did not.  The crooked finger of blame can only be pointed at our own faults.  We continue to let an invisible, brainless glob of molecules bleed us to death.

(http://i.postimg.cc/sxts74d8/Screen-Shot-2020-07-12-at-08-01-01.png)

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 12, 2020, 12:33:53 AM


We had the time and resources to handle the virus much better than ANY other country on the planet but did not.  The crooked finger of blame can only be pointed at our own faults.  We continue to let an invisible, brainless glob of molecules bleed us to death.


Whilst I believe the Canadians, Aussies and folk from NZ might be sl.upset at your 'any', you make a really good point.

The UK had sl. less time, but we are an island and boast amongst the "world's best testing"  provisioning on Jan 23rd.....
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 12, 2020, 02:00:07 AM
Yes moby, we could be better off today than even those countries.  But we lacked the wherewithal, drive, unity and leadership needed to do so.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 12, 2020, 06:40:40 AM
Yes moby, we could be better off today than even those countries.  But we lacked the wherewithal, drive, unity and leadership needed to do so.

Spoken like those who 1) opted to hide in their basements and  2) politically weaponized the pandemic to impose radical socialist government. 

[Note:  I struck "radical" assuming you have not been toppling statutes of Columbus.]

If I hid in my basement, maybe I too would be vitriolic, blaming everyone in government instead of a new, highly infectious and deadly virus.   

Instead, my opinion is that the US made the decision to not destroy the economy while keeping the pandemic at levels not exceeding the capacity of the healthcare system.  You believe it was the wrong decision.  We shall see. 

You do realize that if an effective vaccine is not developed, the US is closer to obtaining herd immunity.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 12, 2020, 07:38:39 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQPsKvG6WMI

this explains it!!!
a former KGB agent explains how Trump/Russia is destroying America and the methods used....
YOU REALLY SHOULD SEE IT!!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 12, 2020, 08:10:02 AM
"You do realize that if an effective vaccine is not developed, the US is closer to obtaining herd immunity.   

and you do realize that for a Corona virus there is no such thing as herd immunity?
when you last got a cold, did it make you immune to cold viruses?
same ting with Corona
ok...

still in denial aincha?

yeah, you are...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 12, 2020, 08:19:49 AM
you extended an invite to our invisible guest that thrives on attitudes such as yours.


Billy,

I see you have determined that the virus has a brain, and beyond that can read the mind of its host, determine political leanings.


You have determined the virus has a brain and has prefers my attitude so I debated you based on your beliefs.


if an effective vaccine is not developed, the US is closer to obtaining herd immunity. 
 

A few Moderna executives sold all their stock and made millions so apparently they aren't confident they are going to be successful in creating a vaccine. Immunity is not guaranteed. Some monkeys got immediately reinfected after recovering from the virus. From what we know about coronaviruses, there is no lifetime immunity and the immunity we get may last less than a year. Here are a couple of studies.

http://www.news-medical.net/news/20200504/Human-endemic-coronavirus-reinfection-possible-after-recovery.aspx

http://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.11.20086439v2


Dr. Fauci said even if we end up creating a safe and effective vaccine, we may need another shot 6 months later and even more shots later on. This tells me Fauci isn't confident a single vaccine shot will provide us lifetime immunity. The sad fact is no vaccine in history is effective on 100% of the people. Flu shots many times work on only 60% or less of the people who take it. The shot for measles is the best we got and it works on 98% of the people who get it.

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article244038852.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 12, 2020, 09:08:06 AM

and you do realize that for a Corona virus there is no such thing as herd immunity?

Wrong, simply because surviving an infection involved some form of immunity response and development of antibodies.   

I concede duration is an issue, and it has yet to be  determined.


Quote
when you last got a cold, did it make you immune to cold viruses?
same ting with Corona
ok...

Two reasons why one can become ill with the "flu," a year after having a "flu"  infection:
          -  Viruses continue to adapt and evolve
          -  Antibody levels from prior infections (and vaccinations) may decline 

So wash your hands, avoid sick people, and be vaccinated.   

And your point is.....anything can happen?   Yes, anything can happen, good or bad.  In one year,  the world may face a horrific, new virus as seen in many Hollywood films.  How about ebola that spreads via air pathways?   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 12, 2020, 09:30:48 AM
"I concede duration is an issue"

probably what your wife sez about you as well
and that "size isn't everything"

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 12, 2020, 09:44:32 AM
"I concede duration is an issue"


As with any natural event, must consider intensity and frequency as well as duration.  The former two may make duration unimportant. 


Quote
  and that "size isn't everything"

I am not Irish.

My 3 1/2" seems adequate (being from Appalachia, our women measured us across, not lengthwise).   

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 12, 2020, 09:48:49 AM
We discussed earlier the statistic "deaths" and the issue of delays in reporting some deaths. 

The CDC dashboard posts data on deaths for the date the information is reported by states, not on the actual date of death.   This delay could be week, and in some cases as much as months (e. g., some April deaths were reported as July deaths).

The effect is to skew CDC's reported rate of deaths, making recent deaths appear greater than what actually happened.   OTOH, the same delays still hamper the reporting so the number of current deaths will increase, yet the discrepancy is not as much as in prior months because the CFR is declining. 

Quote
....given what we now see in the CDC's Deaths by Date of Death data, which is broken out only by week, you can make the case that the date of peak deaths (assuming a smoothed curve) falls somewhere around the end of the WE Apr 11 or beginning of WE Apr 18.   

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/EcqbPTLUcAE-55D?format=png&name=large)

http://www.blabber.buzz/conservative-news/947157-huge-the-cdcs-reporting-of-coronavirus-deaths-is-suspect-after-they-are-caught-tacking-on-previous-deaths-to-current-totals-special?utm_source=c-alrt&utm_medium=c-alrt-email&utm_term=c-alrt-AOL&utm_content=4-Y17L3E59vH9h8JWpVHtBg..A
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 12, 2020, 10:41:04 PM


Instead, my opinion is that the US made the decision to not destroy the economy while keeping the pandemic at levels not exceeding the capacity of the healthcare system.  You believe it was the wrong decision.  We shall see. 

You do realize that if an effective vaccine is not developed, the US is closer to obtaining herd immunity.

OMG, Gator ...


1/ 'Herd immunity?'  Please tell us what YOU 'know' about 'herd immunity' ?...

2/ As for capacity not being exceeded: "As of Tuesday, more than 5,000 Florida patients were using roughly 83% of the state’s more than 6,000 ICU beds.
ICU beds are running out at several hospitals in some of the state’s most-populated counties, including Miami-Dade County, Orange County, Hillsborough County and Broward County. "

The denial is strong in you ..and I can see the same thing happening in other nations while meanwhile in your part of the world, DisneyWorld reopened ...  :wallbash:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 13, 2020, 12:58:43 AM
Spoken like those who 1) opted to hide in their basements and  2) politically weaponized the pandemic to impose radical socialist government. 

[Note:  I struck "radical" assuming you have not been toppling statutes of Columbus.]

If I hid in my basement, maybe I too would be vitriolic, blaming everyone in government instead of a new, highly infectious and deadly virus.

No, we did not hide in our basement.  We observed the stay at home order in effect for all non-essential workers and travels.  We went grocery shopping once or twice a week instead of daily, masks were worn when shopping.  We did nothing but ride out a long storm that lasted 45 days, and slowly, over the next 45 days expanded our movements taking prudent precautions.  All much as possible, work as possible was done from home.  We did a lot of little home improvements during that time, stuck together as a family including stuff we had not done in a while such as board games.  I have no idea how you can bring 'socialist' into the mix.  It was a science-driven plan all the way.  There was no bitterness involved, yes some frustration with limited movement but it was fully understood we were doing our part to weather the storm. 

Quote
Instead, my opinion is that the US made the decision to not destroy the economy while keeping the pandemic at levels not exceeding the capacity of the healthcare system.  You believe it was the wrong decision.  We shall see.
 

When I go out today, I do not see 'destroyed'.  I see recovery, folks safely getting back to normal including vacationing and selected international travels for business and pleasure.  Many companies have embraced home working and are still doing it, keeping their physical offices half-staffed on a rotating basis to reduce transmission possibilities.  Many still wear masks and don them when approaching more populated places where social distances are difficult to hold.  I don't see much cheek kissing and hugging going on nowadays.  All this is a result of re-opening when numbers were down and not up.

Quote
You do realize that if an effective vaccine is not developed, the US is closer to obtaining herd immunity.

Closer, but not there by a long shot. Even if we consider total cases are now 10 times what was detected, we're still talking 30 million with 300 more to go (remember not all infected are gaining adequate, even medium-term immunity and much is uncertain).   Still, far too much fuel to burn and many, many more deaths - too many.  Despite docs and nurses having learned a lot more about treating the toll, this virus takes on our bodies, despite better chances of staying alive, the sheer numbers we are talking about to reach any decent level of 'herd immunity' and resulting death toll is very very high and the rate of infection that would be necessary to do so would be very likely much more than our health system can handle, presenting the case for higher rates of mortality.

There is no easy solution Gator.  Many countries took a more organized, prudent route and are enjoying the fruits of their sacrifices nowadays, being able to live, work and play in a much safer environment.  We in the US decided we could end our stay at home orders early, before numbers dropped.  The proof is in the pudding this has not worked well at all in many states, including where you live.  Not only are levels of infections detected higher than before, but more concerning positivity rates.  Healthcare assets are already reporting being stretched and it will only get worse.

(http://i.postimg.cc/q7tNhHbM/Screen-Shot-2020-07-13-at-09-31-20.png)

(http://i.postimg.cc/bvk04nxh/Screen-Shot-2020-07-13-at-09-41-30.png)

http://covidactnow.org/us/fl/?s=665110

Quote
Florida has about 6,244 ICU beds. Based on best available data, we estimate that 64% (4,005) are currently occupied by non-COVID patients. Of the 2,239 ICU beds remaining, we estimate 2,558 are needed by COVID cases, or >100% of available beds. This suggests hospitals cannot absorb a wave of new COVID infections without substantial surge capacity. Aggressive action urgently needed.

Quote
Per best available data, Florida has 1,600 contact tracers. With an average of 9,208 new daily cases, we estimate Florida needs 46,040 contact tracing staff to trace all new cases in 48 hours, before too many other people are infected. This means that Florida is likely able to trace only 3% of new COVID infections in 48 hours. These low levels of tracing suggest there may be an active outbreak underway in Florida, or almost no tracing capacity exists. Aggressive action urgently needed.

Quote
On average, each person in Florida with COVID is infecting 1.22 other people. As such, the total number of active cases in Florida is growing at an unsustainable rate. If this trend continues, the hospital system may become overloaded. Caution is warranted.

How is this helping the economy when folks now having to face reverting to a higher level of restrictions and even lockdowns Gator?  A 'stop 'n go' economy is likely worse as folks had to reinvest to reopen this time around.  Food that was ordered to stock restaurants may well go bad. Folks re-hired back on unemployment, landlords that still won't get paid.  It's a circle of crisis that is much worse than a one time deal.

It's bad Gator, very bad and not getting any better soon.  Our denial and selfishness has made the situation much worse than it should or could be.


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 13, 2020, 01:09:14 AM
You have determined the virus has a brain and has prefers my attitude so I debated you based on your beliefs.

Total nonsense.... literally.  You are grasping at straws that are not even there.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: calmissile on July 13, 2020, 02:53:47 AM
I have to admit I am getting very tired and bored by all the arguing about this virus.  Looking at the big picture there seems to be only a few truths that are relevant and all the bullshit about charts and graphs is just finding something to knit pick about.
1.  Very little was known about the virus in the beginning and while all the scientists were arguing, governments had to make decisions that were their best guesses.   Some worked better than others.
2.  The idea of isolating the infected from the rest of the population was ineffective.  This was primarily to do with the long incubation period between infection and symptoms (they say up to 14 days).  This means a significant part of the population is spreading the virus without knowing it or having symptoms.  In the initial phase, there was no instant test of the population at large to determine if they were carrying the virus.  That being the case, it is impossible to try to isolate the infected from the not infected.  A total waste of time and money.  Furthermore, the idea of contact tracing is ridiculous.  Once the cows are out of the barn, it is too late!
3.  There was no proven treatment for those that became symptomatic other than hospitalization, oxygen and ventilators for the worse cases.
4.  The great geniuses in the established medical organizations rejected the use of treatments that independent doctors had used successfully but only had anecdotal evidence (no blind studies, etc.).  These same geniuses preferred to use nothing if it did not have blind studies to back it up.  In the mean time people were dying.  Instead of attacking the anecdotal evidence of the reported successes, they instead claimed their own studies showed the treatments were not effective.  I searched for a month looking for medical investigations that proved the reported success stories were not true and could not find any.  If it were me in the hospital and the geniuses  had no solution and there was anecdotal evidence of a treatment that worked on a large percentage of other patients, I think I would vote to take the risk and at least give it a try rather than die while waiting for a miracle drug of the future!  Also, remember the side effects of the drugs suggested were manageable.
5.  It was learned early that the highest casualties were in an older age group, particularly those with specific preexisting conditions.  Since the virus was (is) spreading like wildfire, it would seem to me the best solution would be to isolate those that are most vulnerable and not shut down the whole country for an extended period of time.  Isn't this common sense?  What is a solution that would allow the country to continue to function and most workers being able to continue to support their families? 
6.  It is reported that something like 98% of those infected shake it off like a case of the flu.  The remaining 2% is what needs to be focused on.  If you believe the medical reports, eventually everyone is going to eventually be infected by the virus.  The cows are out of the barn and it is too late to try and stop it.  There is no vaccine at the present time and the number of people that are going to still get infected is huge.  That being said,  what is the best way to protect the 2% that are at the highest risk?
7.  We do know that social isolation, washing your hands, etc are all logical and proven steps that minimize the risk of contracting the virus.  We also know from media reports that the public sees themselves in the 98% majority and are not going to comply with social distancing and lockdowns in order to protect the 2%.  It's just a fact of life whether we like it or not.
8.  Being in the 2% risk category, I have to decide what is best for me and my family in spite of anything our government is doing with policies.  Until there is a vaccine that works for my risk group and/or a treatment that has shown to be effective, I am going to self isolate and pray for the best.  It's a matter of time.  Can I stay virus free in my little world until a medical solution is found and available.  It is a challenge but going to give it my best try.  Limit my number of trips to the office, have groceries continue to be delivered to the house.  Minimize the trips to stores, continue social distancing, etc.

THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE......  While we can live with the social isolation we have been practicing over the past few months, there is a huge issue I have no answer to.  If Lisa goes back to school, what are the chances she could bring the virus home in spite of washing hands, etc.?  This is where the 2% high risk category are screwed.  We can continue to self isolate, but what about our children that go to school?  Common sense tells me that people in the 2% group should not cohabitate with those that might bring the virus to them.  The obvious solution would be to home school.  Being an only child, it is not an easy choice.  Social isolation of an only child can be damaging to their social development.  What to do, what to do?  I have not been able to find any definitive agreed upon medical studies that indicate the risks of a child bringing home the virus. In fact it is becoming a political football.   In some reports it indicates that infected young people do not 'shed' the virus.  Other reports do not agree.  My inclination is to limit Lisa to home schooling or online learning if it is available from her school.   If it's only another 6 months before a vaccine or treatment is available, then maybe that is the best solution.  I just don't know.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 13, 2020, 04:46:20 AM
Calmissile

the idea of lockdown worked ... I have NO idea why you might conclude otherwise ..the issue is it reduced infection rates to manageable levels .( from a 'ICU' and contact tracing perspective)

If you STILL believe otherwise I offer you Sweden ... it has managed to kill off 10 times more of it's neighbours Finland and Norway and 6 times more than Denmark ... by ( nearly) allowing life to continue as normal.

SOME govts have subsequently decided that it was time to go back to work and return to 'normal' ..

As we see in America, Australia, Britain ( for instance )  spikes occur and the virus hasn't gone.

The charts and graphs are only BS if the data is BS.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 13, 2020, 05:41:41 AM
OMG, Gator ...

1/ 'Herd immunity?'  Please tell us what YOU 'know' about 'herd immunity' ?...


More than you know about America.



Quote
ICU beds are running out at several hospitals in some of the state’s most-populated counties, including Miami-Dade County, Orange County, Hillsborough County and Broward County. "

Not news.  I mentioned this a few days ago.  As of yesterday, over 1000 ICU beds were available throughout Florida.  My ER friend's hospital converted a few unused ordinary beds into ICU beds.  Number of beds are an indicator, not the critical issue.    Other things such as staff capacity will be more concerning. 


Quote
The denial is strong in you ..and I can see the same thing happening in other nations...

Denial?  I am concerned about how much the predominance of asymptomatic and mild cases concentrated among the younger folks will  infect the  seniors.    There is an uptick, yet it is not keeping pace with the surge of new cases.  In fact the "percent positive" of tests dropped Sunday (FL reported 15,000 new COVID cases in its 100,000 tests).   This demands careful monitoring and even more careful individual behavior.   

Quote
  DisneyWorld reopened ...  :wallbash:

For sure the brain trust at Disney spent more time in making this decision than you did in your spontaneous, emotional reaction.  If you read about their mitigation methods, your wall-bashed head would not hurt. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 13, 2020, 06:09:05 AM
I have no idea how you can bring 'socialist' into the mix.

The left is exclaiming racism, blaming Trump for everything especially COVID.   The left uses these crises to push their demands  for socialist-style initiatives.   If you wonder what I am talking about, ponder about "ending shareholder capitalism."  Ponder about BLM goals.    As the election draws nearer, political division widens.  What will it be in October? 
 


Quote
Closer, but not there by a long shot. Even if we consider total cases are now 10 times what was detected, we're still talking 30 million with 300 more to go


200 million is all that is needed dependent upon R0.  That means 20 million tested cases.  Yes, a way to go.  In March-April, I "guesstimated" something like 18 months.   

The world needs a vaccine and the incredibly accelerated development approach fostered by the Trump administration goes mostly unnoticed.  The results will likely not be clear until after the election. 


Quote
A 'stop 'n go' economy is likely worse....

Agree.  Hopefully, that will not be necessary as we learn how to "live" with it.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 13, 2020, 06:16:10 AM

More than you know about America. 

FAILed deflection #1 .. Do try and tell us aout what you 'now' about 'herd immunity'..  From your 'stance' you need educating ... there's NO such thing ... ask the Swedes


Not news.  I mentioned this a few days ago.  As of yesterday, over 1000 ICU beds were available throughout Florida.  My ER friend's hospital converted a few unused ordinary beds into ICU beds.  Number of beds are an indicator, not the critical issue.    Other things such as staff capacity will be more concerning. 

Whether it's bed or the staff to manage them, your DENIAL cannot accept the virus never went away,
 as prophesied

I am concerned about how much the predominance of asymptomatic and mild cases concentrated among the younger folks will  infect the  seniors.    There is an uptick, yet it is not keeping pace with the surge of new cases.  In fact the "percent positive" of tests dropped Sunday (FL reported 15,000 new COVID cases in its 100,000 tests).   This demands careful monitoring and even more careful individual behavior.   

For sure the brain trust at Disney spent more time in making this decision than you did in your spontaneous, emotional reaction.  If you read about their mitigation methods, your wall-bashed head would not hurt.

Gator, I balance my not being with my wife and not mixing with fellow human beings v my Mum's health ..  economic / monetary considerations are not part of the equation..

Common sense tells me that opening ( esp. when there's a spike ...)  ...well it isn't common sense ...

I know lots more about your nation that you can imagine .. being a very frequent visitor in the 80's 90' noughties...Esp. your part of the world  ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 13, 2020, 07:01:03 AM
Gator,
As you are running away from proving 'herd immunity' is a wet dream...

http://metro.co.uk/2020/07/13/coronavirus-immunity-may-last-months-caught-12981027/ (http://metro.co.uk/2020/07/13/coronavirus-immunity-may-last-months-caught-12981027/)

Even if you have antibodies, they will not help if you become infected again....

Even in Stockholm, last month on 7.7% of people had antibodies present.

That's a lot of elderly and vulnerable people who will need to be protected from infection....


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 13, 2020, 07:19:08 AM
The left is exclaiming racism, blaming Trump for everything especially COVID.   The left uses these crises to push their demands  for socialist-style initiatives.   If you wonder what I am talking about, ponder about "ending shareholder capitalism."  Ponder about BLM goals.    As the election draws nearer, political division widens.  What will it be in October? 

I just fail to see the correlation between COVID and socialism.
 
Quote
200 million is all that is needed dependent upon R0.  That means 20 million tested cases.  Yes, a way to go.  In March-April, I "guesstimated" something like 18 months.   

Which would totally overload the healthcare system, driving up the mortality rate.  The advantage of some like Germany was being able to get folks into the hospital for supportive care before the virus caused too much damage to recover from.  Such was not possible in Italy, Spain and New York where ICU beds and staff were quickly filled, leaving others at home to worsen.

Quote
The world needs a vaccine and the incredibly accelerated development approach fostered by the Trump administration goes mostly unnoticed.  The results will likely not be clear until after the election. 

You can't accelerate the scientific method.  This warp speed thing is more about approval which lies with the USG and production.  Essentially it is a hedge bet to try and guarantee production for US needs and a place at the front of the line.

Quote
Agree.  Hopefully, that will not be necessary as we learn how to "live" with it.   

You forgot the last part : .. and 'die' with it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on July 13, 2020, 07:31:41 AM
I have to admit I am getting very tired and bored by all the arguing about this virus.  Looking at the big picture there seems to be only a few truths that are relevant and all the bullshit about charts and graphs is just finding something to knit pick about.
1.  Very little was known about the virus in the beginning and while all the scientists were arguing, governments had to make decisions that were their best guesses.   Some worked better than others.


Cal unfortunately nobody knows with any certainly even the experts. While covid is different in a few respects to the other 26 corona viruses it is also very similar as well.. It is looking as if everyone may at some point contract the virus. Regardless of the forum's expert proclamation, lock downs did not work anywhere btw. Social distancing (a high school science fair project theory hasn't worked either). Masks do not protect us from the virus. Chances are now or in the future we will all be exposed to, carry it, live or die with it, in pretty much less numbers than influenza.

Being in a high risk group you may wish to alter your personal habits but, age alone doesn't put you in that group. This virus like others require precaution. Not a total and complete lifestyle change. I would suggest you be very careful expecting a vaccine anytime soon or that there is a miracle cure. Your body is the best defense against this and all other viruses as well. Don't buy into the hyperbole from these board experts or the MSM. They are only parroting what they are told. IMHO, your wife and daughter should continue to resume their natural lifestyle also with some precautions in your house. If they haven't caught it or given it to you by now, likely it won't happen anyway. If it does, then it does. Don't quit living your life

My two kopeks
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 13, 2020, 08:15:35 AM
I have to admit I am getting very tired and bored by all the arguing about this virus.  Looking at the big picture there seems to be only a few truths that are relevant and all the bullshit about charts and graphs is just finding something to knit pick about....

Absurd, isn't it? I'm sure you notice it's instigated by people thousand of miles away from the place they claim to be experts on everyday life here. It's always the clueless that think they know better. Hell, look at their death per capita where they are and there you can easily see the absurdity of their 'expert assessments'. Google have that affect on so many people these days.

Age and comorbidity are the two causes of mortality of this virus. Screw what you see or hear from the media. Exercise the same caution/prevention as you would in preventing to catch the flu. Beyond that, there's not much else you can do. Stress from having to freak out about this can be as devastating to people's health as any other.

Played a couple rounds of golf over the weekend wearing me "Make American Great Again' cap. LMAO. I can't count the number of thumbs-up and fist pumps I got.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 13, 2020, 08:33:31 AM
Hell, look at their death per capita where they are and there you can easily see the absurdity of their 'expert assessments'. Google have that affect on so many people these days.

Remember your words (especially 'absurd') in 90 days or so, maybe far less, when deaths per capita reach the same as Italy, maybe even Spain or UK.

I haven't seen anyone here claim to be an expert.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 13, 2020, 08:39:38 AM
When it comes to death per capita, America is doing better than many European nations. If Democratic led States NJ, NY and a few of their neighbors didn't screw up killing 1 out of every 600 residents in a few months because they acted too late, America's death per capita would look much better. Some American States are doing better than every European nation.

The virus is worse than thought to be because some people won't take it serious and some are too serious about it. There will be nations not doing enough to stop the spread. There will be nations killing their economy doing too much to stop the spread. It would've been better if this virus was only as dangerous as the flu and everybody can accept living with the virus forever just like we live with the flu virus or better if the virus killed 100% of the people it infected forcing everybody in every nation to hide for a short time at the same time to prevent any spread and eventually the virus would cease to exist. If the virus killed 100% of those it infected, the spread may have stopped in China since China would've taken it more seriously.

It's going to take years before we learn which nations did too much, too little, or applied the right amount of action against the virus. All we can do now is argue about it.


wearing me "Make American Great Again' cap. LMAO. I can't count the number of thumbs-up and fist pumps I got.


A popular YouTuber said he got a lot of compliments while wearing his MAGA mask. Does anybody get any compliments wearing Biden related merchandise? Does Biden merchandise even sell? I still see more Bernie stuff out there than Biden's.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 13, 2020, 08:39:48 AM
Remember your words (especially 'absurd') in 90 days or so, maybe far less, when deaths per capita reach the same as Italy, maybe even Spain or UK.

I haven't seen anyone here claim to be an expert.

90 days?!? Didn't you already made that statement 90 days ago, BC? Why wait 90? I can state matter of factl today YOU don't have an ounce of an idea what every day life is like INSIDE the US other than what you read on the internet. It's bullshit and you know. The US will never suffer the situation where our healthcare facilities will ever choose on who gets to die or live because of lack of equipment like you guys over there did with your sick. Considering the northern region was regarded as the crčme de la crčme of your healthcare system, LMAO!

Almost 4 years later and you still haven't gotten closure from the 2016 election, dude. It's pitiful.

If life is so much better there, why not forego your citizenship and leave the miseries you believe we live in to ourselves. Walk you silly talk, BC. Maybe even I will believe what you talk about if you do.

Get a grip, man! You ain't *us*...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 13, 2020, 09:12:43 AM
You are a riot GQ.

My last prediction was 50k infections per day in the coming weeks.  Unfortunately, that happened. 

A while back I did say that the US will meet or exceed Italy's death per million but can't recall the exact timeline for that. Maybe was something like election day or end of the year.  If you find it let me know.

Why 90 days?  Data and mathematics, nothing more.  No politics, no bias, no elections, no citizenship, - just plain maths.

What is pitiful is your head in the sand.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 13, 2020, 09:24:08 AM
50K infection means exactly what BC?

Listen, there's not even a 3rd world country that had so far resorted to picking between the sick on who gets to live or die because of lack of equipment, man. Don't ignore this VERY significant reality where you are dude.

The fact is, *our* (not including you), leader made sure this doesn't happen here. One you cannot claim to have where you are.

Like I said upthread....walk the talk! Shed the citizenship of a country you possess disdain for. Live the rest of your happy life in Utopia. You ain't *us*, *we* and all this silliness you think you're in. Until then anything that comes out of you is pure BS.

Whatcha waitin' for?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 13, 2020, 09:58:38 AM
50k means we are letting the virus win, and even flourish.  That more folks will end up in the hospital and more will die that should not have to.  Let's hope that doctors anywhere will not have to make some of the same decisions that were made here in the weeks and months to come.  Yet is a big word.

The rest of your commentary deserves no response other than 'if it pisses you off, your problem and not mine'.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 13, 2020, 10:31:12 AM
50k means we are letting the virus win, and even flourish.  That more folks will end up in the hospital and more will die that should not have to.  Let's hope that doctors anywhere will not have to make some of the same decisions that were made here in the weeks and months to come.  Yet is a big word.

The rest of your commentary deserves no response other than 'if it pisses you off, your problem and not mine'.

Get a grip BC. It's true we haven't implemented a social program to provide amnesty to migrant workers to get out there and expose themselves to the virus so the natives can stay home for shelter. I'm glad Italy instigated that program. Hell, I'm glad Italy is where it's at in all facets of its existence. Bravo!!!!

This is NOT a competition. You have this sinister intent to make everything about politics, notably your hard-on about/against Trump. Get over it. Good, bad or indifferent, the US will do what it feels it needs to do...As of today, our government haven't yet unleashed the military on the streets for lockdown enforcement unlike many places in the world today.

Show us your conviction. Shed the citizenship if you really feel you are much better off where you are than where we are. Don't make excuses. You're like an insolent teenager who thinks he's got the world figured out but haven't the bawls to go and prove his conviction. Instead he sticks around and bitch like a banshee.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 13, 2020, 10:57:52 AM

Listen, there's not even a 3rd world country that had so far resorted to picking between the sick on who gets to live or die because of lack of equipment, man.

For a guy that tells a US citizen he knows nothing about his own country, when he has family there you are on a roll of DUMB ASSertions

Italy may or may not be 'third world' to you, but it you seem to have 'missed' when the very decisions you said 'didn't happen' .. :wallbash:

From Italy March 13th 2020

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-italy-hospitals-doctor-lockdown-quarantine-intensive-care-a9401186.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-italy-hospitals-doctor-lockdown-quarantine-intensive-care-a9401186.html)

‘We are making difficult choices’: Italian doctor tells of struggle against coronavirus"


WHY does GQB make stuff up when busted ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 13, 2020, 11:08:18 AM
For a guy that tells a US citizen he knows nothing about his own country, when he has family there you are on a roll of DUMB ASSertions

Italy may or may not be 'third world' to you, but it you seem to have 'missed' when the very decisions you said 'didn't happen' .. :wallbash:

From Italy March 13th 2020

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-italy-hospitals-doctor-lockdown-quarantine-intensive-care-a9401186.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-italy-hospitals-doctor-lockdown-quarantine-intensive-care-a9401186.html)

‘We are making difficult choices’: Italian doctor tells of struggle against coronavirus"


WHY does GQB make stuff up when busted ?

Here's another *expert* of everything under the sun by virtue of Google.

Get a friend, worm. Even one. It'll definitely make the world a much better place for you.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 13, 2020, 11:10:42 AM
GQB, now thoroughly busted now tries to suggest the info is 'false' :popcorn:

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 13, 2020, 11:14:08 AM
GQB, now thoroughly busted now tries to suggest the info is 'false' :popcorn:

:ROFL:

You don't even know what you're talking about now, worm. I'll let you suffer with that on your own. :devil:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on July 13, 2020, 11:52:56 AM
Panicdemic! Record Number of Coronavirus Cases Hyped —
But Deaths, Recoveries Downplayed

From Alex Berenson
And after a week of nightmare headlines about Florida, and about 70,000 new cases (aka positive tests), hospitals have a grand total of 130 more patients (~2.5%) in ICU beds statewide than last Sunday. Can’t make it up. 45 deaths today, in a state with 20 million people.
http://twitter.com/AlexBerenson


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 13, 2020, 12:36:40 PM
Well done, Angela!

http://www.businessinsider.com/angela-merkel-coronavirus-exposes-leaders-fact-denying-populism-trump-2020-7 (http://www.businessinsider.com/angela-merkel-coronavirus-exposes-leaders-fact-denying-populism-trump-2020-7)


Merkel says the coronavirus pandemic has exposed leaders who rely on 'fact-denying populism'


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 13, 2020, 01:37:27 PM
Panicdemic! Record Number of Coronavirus Cases Hyped —
But Deaths, Recoveries Downplayed

From Alex Berenson
And after a week of nightmare headlines about Florida, and about 70,000 new cases (aka positive tests), hospitals have a grand total of 130 more patients (~2.5%) in ICU beds statewide than last Sunday. Can’t make it up. 45 deaths today, in a state with 20 million people.
http://twitter.com/AlexBerenson

That was yesterday.  Today, FL DOH reported 12,500 positive tests statewide.  Deaths increased by 35.

I pay more attention to hospitalizations rather than new cases because a large percentage  of the new cases are asymptomatic, younger people socializing in closed air conditioned spaces.

People are being admitted everyday to hospitals.  Yet, it is difficult to see a trend.   Starting July 1, the number of  daily reported hospital admissions:

246
339
341
940
160
510
328
  43
409
435
421
248
227

Clearly there are some daily inconsistencies, yet the 13-day average is 357 per day, vs. 10,000+ new positive cases/day.  Around a 3.5% hospitalization rate.  Not that I want to be hospitalized, given the "Bald and Bankrupt" FSU traveler reported his "knob" doesn't work, not even a twitch. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 13, 2020, 02:04:28 PM
I just fail to see the correlation between COVID and socialism.
 

Nor do I.  This is the reasoning: minorities are experiencing a greater percentage of new cases than their population numbers would suggest.  The left blames social and economic inequality. 

Any correlation about BLM rallies with no  black people attending?  It happens. 
 
 
Quote
Which would totally overload the healthcare system, driving up the mortality rate.


Hasn't happened yet.  Nevertheless, I think it better not to push it.


Quote
You can't accelerate the scientific method.  This warp speed thing is more about approval which lies with the USG and production. 

You can not give Trump a compliment even when he does something clearly beneficial to mankind.   

Yes, review and approval are accelerated, yet the real speed comes from Uncle Sam paying  the drug companies billions to accelerate development, to include starting production before Phase 3 trials are started.    We have several promising vaccines in such a pipeline.  There are issues and concerns that would compel private investments to slow, yet the US government pushes forward.   

Quote
  Essentially it is a hedge bet to try and guarantee production for US needs and a place at the front of the line.


So wait for China?  You think China is benevolent? 


Quote
You forgot the last part : .. and 'die' with it.

There are rewards.  On my recent birthday I did not stay homebound, but played golf, accomplishing the feat of shooting my age, actually 2 under my new age.  If I had stayed home I would have missed this little joyful event. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 13, 2020, 08:21:02 PM
First dedicated Covid-19 antibody study concludes immunity may last a few months. Not good news. This has similar results to immunity studies done for other coronaviruses I posted upthread.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/virus-immunity-in-recovered-patients-may-be-gone-in-months-researchers-say/ar-BB16GohP?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds


CDC continues to learn more about the behavior of the coronavirus and now say 40% of the people infected are asymptomatic. 80% of teens and preteens are asymptomatic

http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/the-number-of-covid-patients-without-symptoms-is-growing-cdc-says/ar-BB16GlqB?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds

http://bestlifeonline.com/age-group-asymptomatic/?utm_source=msn&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=msn-feed


The city of Seattle figures the best way to fund the battle against the virus is to raise taxes.

http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/seattle-city-council-passes-new-jumpstart-tax-on-high-salaries-paid-by-big-businesses/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on July 13, 2020, 09:32:34 PM
.  My inclination is to limit Lisa to home schooling or online learning if it is available from her school.   If it's only another 6 months before a vaccine or treatment is available, then maybe that is the best solution.  I just don't know.
You state you are in the vulnerable category, probably due to advanced age and one or more the other risk factors.    Since you are still contemplating a decision, I'll chime in.  I'd consider letting your wife/daughter live their life normally, even if it means without you temporary.  They are young and presumably healthy, and IF the state starts school up in the fall, then the child should be permitted to go.  People have undergone greater hardships than a temporary separation.  An apartment close by could be an option for you. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on July 13, 2020, 09:52:25 PM
Looks like the virus is going to claim a very heavy toll in the USA.  Those that thought it was a bunch of bull are being proved incorrect.   I expect to do battle with it at some point, if I haven't already.   Mother in law has it, but is still alive and kicking and it has been a few weeks.  Just stayed at home and is toughing it out.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 13, 2020, 11:12:46 PM

Nor do I.  This is the reasoning: minorities are experiencing a greater percentage of new cases than their population numbers would suggest.  The left blames social and economic inequality. 

Any correlation about BLM rallies with no  black people attending?  It happens.


As far as catching it, anyone can.  My guess urban living has a major role with less social distancing.

Quote
Hasn't happened yet.  Nevertheless, I think it better not to push it.

Italy, Spain, NY to name a few where healthcare resources were extremely stressed. 

Quote
You can not give Trump a compliment even when he does something clearly beneficial to mankind. 
 

Was there anything derogatory in my post? 

Quote
Yes, review and approval are accelerated, yet the real speed comes from Uncle Sam paying  the drug companies billions to accelerate development, to include starting production before Phase 3 trials are started.    We have several promising vaccines in such a pipeline.  There are issues and concerns that would compel private investments to slow, yet the US government pushes forward.
   

Sure, additional funding for pre-production and additional manufacturing capacity of vaccines that may or may not work in an attempt to speed up distribution possibilities is good and might save lives. Thus my 'hedging' comment.  I have not found much information on is how development can be sped up other than regulatory actions regarding ongoing trial processes.
 
Quote
So wait for China?  You think China is benevolent?

Who mentioned China?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 13, 2020, 11:53:05 PM


CDC continues to learn more about the behavior of the coronavirus and now say 40% of the people infected are asymptomatic. 80% of teens and preteens are asymptomatic



That's a little 'rigid', BillyB .. it depends on the region, the strain, etc.

Do we know how infectious asymptomatic kids are ?  Is sending the to school risking spreading the virus when they come home and visit their Grand parents ?

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 14, 2020, 04:36:51 AM
This gathering of FSU W in SoCal at the weekend will be wondering why they can't go to the 'krasotka' ( beauty) salon ,the 'fitness center' and mall is closed .. for three days ( 'lockdown II')

(http://i.imgur.com/9wup4TX.jpg)





http://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-07-13/no-god-no-tattoos-no-pilates-its-lockdown-2-0-california-sty (http://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2020-07-13/no-god-no-tattoos-no-pilates-its-lockdown-2-0-california-sty)

"California is back on coronavirus lockdown. And we have no one to blame but ourselves"
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 14, 2020, 06:31:58 AM
As far as catching it, anyone can.  My guess urban living has a major role with less social distancing.

High population density and multi-generational habitation. 



Quote
Italy, Spain, NY to name a few where healthcare resources were extremely stressed.
   

Most of my comments are based on the situation in Florida, my home state, which recently set the US record for the highest number of daily cases.   I see news reports that krimster's Houston is perilously close to being overwhelmed.  US military medical staff have been deployed to Texas to help.   
 

Quote
Was there anything derogatory in my post? 


It was not your usual offendinista speak; however, the initiative is deserving of praise.  The fast track streamlining/funding is not limited to American pharmaceutical companies, but given to joint ventures with European entities.  Are EU countries also funding to the same level? 
   

Quote
I have not found much information on is how development can be sped up other than regulatory actions regarding ongoing trial processes.

Pharma companies funding their own research  tend to be deliberate, proceeding at a cautious pace to avoid wasting money.   Pharma companies can now use Uncle Sam dollars to test larger trial populations and employ more staff to monitoring and analysis.     

 
Quote
Who mentioned China?

I thought it well known that China is developing vaccine(s).  And the rumor says they are ahead of us.  There are vaccine development programs other than China and the American-Euro pharma companies, yet I don't believe these are progressing as well.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 14, 2020, 08:14:17 AM
I thought it well known that China is developing vaccine(s).  And the rumor says they are ahead of us.  There are vaccine development programs other than China and the American-Euro pharma companies, yet I don't believe these are progressing as well.



 My guess is China put out the rumor China is having great success in developing a vaccine for COVID-19. Have they ever discovered a vaccine for anything? China is great at stealing ideas and copying them and making cheap junk. They are not known to lead in any technology. China may very well create the first vaccine but it won't meet ours or Europe's standards.


Here is China's Ministry of Health long list of approved treatments and cures for the Coronavirus. It's all BS. Google translate it.


http://www.xinhuanet.com/health/2020-03/04/c_1125661175.htm
http://ww (http://www.xinhuanet.com/health/2020-03/04/c_1125661175.htm)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 14, 2020, 08:25:43 AM
High population density and multi-generational habitation. 

Indeed.

Quote
Most of my comments are based on the situation in Florida, my home state, which recently set the US record for the highest number of daily cases.   I see news reports that krimster's Houston is perilously close to being overwhelmed.  US military medical staff have been deployed to Texas to help. 


Yes is trending and broadening.  Hopefully can be turned around, but will be difficult at such levels of infection.  Take a ton of infections and even a small percentile of hospitalizations and deaths result in very large numbers.
 

Quote
It was not your usual offendinista speak; however, the initiative is deserving of praise.  The fast track streamlining/funding is not limited to American pharmaceutical companies, but given to joint ventures with European entities.  Are EU countries also funding to the same level?

'Offendinista'? Learned long ago that if someone says something that bothers you, best to look within for the cause.  But unlike others, at least you often reply with questions seeking clarification instead of demanding someone burn their passport LOLO

Yes, billions have been contributed not only for production but early on for research as well.  Believe even some of those funds supported research for some of the candidates the US has invested in.

Quote
Pharma companies funding their own research  tend to be deliberate, proceeding at a cautious pace to avoid wasting money.   Pharma companies can now use Uncle Sam dollars to test larger trial populations and employ more staff to monitoring and analysis.
 

Larger trials across a broad spectrum of Earth's population is always good. 

Quote

I thought it well known that China is developing vaccine(s).  And the rumor says they are ahead of us.  There are vaccine development programs other than China and the American-Euro pharma companies, yet I don't believe these are progressing as well.

I wish them much success as well as others.  Hell, I hope they all work perfectly as we'll need every drop, maybe multiple times per year.  Maybe even combo injections will eventually come about as is the case with influenza vaccines.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 14, 2020, 11:25:43 AM
dear folks “on the outside”

well, as you can see by the handy pie chart...
pie? did someone mention pie?
huh? where was I?

oh yeah, now I remember...
you can quite easily discern the start of Peak II here in Houston
that coincided with “the reopening” and its influence on social distancing...

ICUs are about at 99% capacity right now...
when we hit 100% we will have no choice but to triage ventilators
and give preference to those who are more likely to survive
and have young children, etc...

more and more military is coming in here all the time
some to manage food distribution and hand out
and some to help setup a field hospital outside the main hospital
to handle expansion

have not had any further confrontations with anti-maskers
did get up to 4, but the last one was a month ago....

I am now a deadly MFer with knives!
I NEVER leave home and go out in public without strapping on "my iron"
about 10% of the people I saw in the hardware store today were armed
including myself, of course...

I can draw 2 blades simultaneously and cut you twice in roughly one second
and do it in one single smooth movement you would barely even see
oh...
and I have a Colt Detective 2" barrel 38 special in a concealed ankle holster
loaded with 158 grain +p lead hollow points I cast and loaded myself
which has lead me to contemplate starting my own ammunition company

and this is why I am the Sultan who has a harem of Russian women
and you incels are just a bunch of girly-boys the women don't respect and look to for protection...
so you're all sitting at home watching porn and playing video games


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 15, 2020, 08:31:26 AM
krimster, I like your steak knives.  Where can I buy them?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 15, 2020, 08:32:14 AM
VACCINE NEWS

Moderna, one of the pharma companies in Trump's fast track vaccine program has released promising news about its Phase 2 trials.  It had earlier released results for 8 of the 45 participants.  Now all 45 have been reported, and all participants produced neutralizing antibodies.  The level of antibodies  is 2-4x greater than seen in patients who had recovered from COVID.    The antibodies are responsible for blocking the virus from entering target cells.

The testing required two doses.   The first dose produced antibodies at small levels.  A second dose increased levels tenfold.    Side affects were considered tolerable, similar to early stage of flu, e. g. fever, fatigue. 

NIH's renown Dr. Fauci had this to say:

Quote
The hallmark of a vaccine is one that can actually mimic natural infection and induce the kind of response that you would get with natural infection. And it looks like, at least in this limited, small number of individuals, that is exactly what’s happening.  The data really look quite good. There were no serious adverse events.

Moderna says it will start a Phase 3 trial with 30,000 patients on July 27.  The participants will include more vulnerable populations (age 55-70+ and preexisting morbidity).   Phase 3 will examine participants for side effects, development of antibodies, and the reactions of any who happen to become infected with COVID (none are purposefully exposed to the virus).  I would assume many participants will be selected from areas with recent surges to increase the opportunity for exposure.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 15, 2020, 09:02:53 AM
Antibodies and 'immunity'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52446965

A new study of people who have caught and recovered from coronavirus raises the prospect that immunity to the virus may be short-lived.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 15, 2020, 09:12:13 AM


A new study of people who have caught and recovered from coronavirus raises the prospect that immunity to the virus may be short-lived.

So!?  If true, need booster shots. 

Next question. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 15, 2020, 09:20:43 AM
Many question whether a vaccine can be developed for COVID-19, comparing it to the failed billions of dollars of research to find a vaccine for HIV.

A key difference is the high number of COVID-19 infections that manifested only mild or no symptoms, unlike HIV which infects the body's t-cells important to immunity.    And most of the infected patients  recovered.    This says the immune system can defeat the virus. 

Internationally there are 160 different vaccines under development for COVID-19.   The NIH recently opened its COVID PREVENTION NETWORK site with info about vaccines.  Some of the info is incomplete, yet it has a very informative and simplified section on the  "The Science of COVID-19 Vaccines and Antibodies."

http://www.coronaviruspreventionnetwork.org/coronavirus-vaccine-and-antibody-science/

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 15, 2020, 09:27:06 AM
By the way, at the NIH site I referenced above, one can complete a form to volunteer to participate in clinical studies. 

I did.  It is likely oversubscribed and I am too old. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 15, 2020, 09:32:09 AM
VACCINE NEWS

Moderna, one of the pharma companies in Trump's fast track vaccine program has released promising news about its Phase 2 trials.  It had earlier released results for 8 of the 45 participants.  Now all 45 have been reported, and all participants produced neutralizing antibodies.  The level of antibodies  is 2-4x greater than seen in patients who had recovered from COVID.    The antibodies are responsible for blocking the virus from entering target cells.



I read an article Moderna's stock jumped 15% based on this latest news. In the past scientists and doctors have criticized Moderna for using the media to promote a product of theirs that is under development when reality is there is a very low chance of it being accepted. Other labs in America and around the world are ahead or neck in neck with Moderna in developing their vaccines but they've been going about their business quietly. Also, governments may encourage them to talk periodically about good news to give people hope.




The testing required two doses.   The first dose produced antibodies at small levels.  A second dose increased levels tenfold.    Side affects were considered tolerable, similar to early stage of flu, e. g. fever, fatigue. 


The amount of vaccine to give in one dose is also under review. Small, medium, or large amounts were considered. The large amount is now out of consideration. This tells me this vaccine can be dangerous in large amounts. Smaller doses may be acceptable but more testing needed. It's easy to accomplish safe. It's easy to accomplish
effective. It's rare a vaccine in development will be approved safe AND effective but they will probably relax the rules this time. Who's going to be first in line for the vaccine when it comes out?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 15, 2020, 09:47:51 AM

This tells me this vaccine can be dangerous in large amounts.

Not so much "dangerous" as increased side effects with little added benefit.


Quote
Smaller doses may be acceptable but more testing needed.

Phase 3 study of 30,000 participants commences in less than two weeks.  In comparison to 45, I say 30,000 is considerably  "more testing." 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 15, 2020, 11:37:09 AM
So!?  If true, need booster shots. 

Next question.

??  Best read up before proving you've not got a clue, there, Phil  (

You need vaccine to be working, first ..  :popcorn:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 15, 2020, 12:52:21 PM
Moby,

Depending on how the next trial phase goes, an infection may be a 'booster'.  We'll just have to wait and see though as much is still not known.

It would, of course, be bad if booster shots are needed as such would indicate that the initial shot was not that effective.  Complicating/doubling logistics and longer waits until the body builds up the required immunity could add months to the timeline.  Get shot today, wait a few weeks, get another shot, wait a few weeks.

But at least a milestone was met and seems all did produce antibodies so progress was made.

My greatest concern is all that will happen in the next 6-9 months which is the earliest a decent number of folks, but far from all, could be vaccinated.

The infection and death rates are going to be appalling if states don't start locking down completely.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 15, 2020, 01:41:52 PM
??  Best read up before proving you've not got a clue, there, Phil  (


Take a deep breath and re-read your little BBC article which talks about six other other human coronaviruses.    It says for two dangerous coronaviruses, antibodies have been detected years after the infection and recovery.  For the four milder coronaviruses (common cold symptoms), "some patients could be re-infected within a year."

Quote
  You need vaccine to be working, first ..  :popcorn:

Tests starting soon  on 30,000 participants will show if the vaccine is "working."  To understand "working,"  try to understand "neutralizing antibodies," how they are produced as the human body recovers from actual infections, and how the vaccine Phase 2 trials showed the inoculated participants produced antibodies at levels 2-4x  greater than measured in patients who recovered from actual infections. 

Also, re-read my quote from Dr. Fauci for a simple explanation.

If you structure you  questions precisely, maybe I can help.  BC's comment about infection being a "booster" suggests he understands.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 15, 2020, 01:49:30 PM
Take a deep breath and re-read your little BBC article which talks about six other other human coronaviruses.    It says for two dangerous coronaviruses, antibodies have been detected years after the infection and recovery.  For the four milder coronaviruses (common cold symptoms), "some patients could be re-infected within a year."

Phil, once again, you cannot quit when behind

1/ There has been NO vaccine for a Coronavirus, as they are ever mutating

2/ Deal with your ignorance re 'herd immunity', please .. There's no such thing..

3/ I admire your  Dr Fauci.. Shame your President and some other 'patriots' can't
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 15, 2020, 02:04:00 PM
Phil, once again, you cannot quit when behind

1/ There has been NO vaccine for a Coronavirus, as they are ever mutating


I don't think there has ever been so much invested in developing a new vaccine.  By investment I'm not talking money but instead so many working at a feverish pace to find a solution.  I hope it works but time was not used wisely in other ways that are just as effective as a vaccine.

At the moment, for those in places on this planet that have not been able to bring and keep their infections down there seems to be no plan B in an environment that only gets riskier, and deadlier as time passes. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 15, 2020, 02:31:11 PM
There has been NO vaccine for a Coronavirus, as they are ever mutating





There are numerous strains of SARS-COV2 out there but the mutations aren't big enough to worry yet. The experts believe the vaccines that are being developed will be able to take on all current strains. If we can eliminate this virus off the planet earth, we won't need to worry about a big enough mutation that current vaccines won't work against.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 15, 2020, 02:40:07 PM
Phil, once again, you cannot quit when behind

1/ There has been NO vaccine for a Coronavirus, as they are ever mutating   

If impossible why would many of the world's pharmaceutical companies spend billions endeavoring to develop a vaccine.  Could it be they understand medical science better than you?  Is it possible that these hundreds of PhDs and MDs have more of a clue than a weakly educated drifter from Ireland. 

2/ Deal with your ignorance re 'herd immunity', please .. There's no such thing..

I stand with the medical science community, such as the Mayo Clinic:
   
http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/herd-immunity-and-coronavirus/art-20486808

Does one scientific organization support your lame thought?  

3/ I admire your  Dr Fauci.. Shame your President and some other 'patriots' can't

Trump and Fauci are fine.   Sometimes Fauci conflicts with a member of Trump's staff.  That happens when people with different backgrounds and goals deliberate an issue. 


Let's talk about your posting style, using this as an example:     

Your responses were:  immediate, no thought, unconnected, false, and seemingly emotional.....you suffer from anxiety, don't you.  It must become excruciatingly at times, especially to others.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 15, 2020, 03:49:08 PM
Let's talk about your posting style,....

Why bother? These guys have nothing to do all day but Google. They Google so much they actually believe they've become omniscient. They even start telling you what's happening in your own backyard from half a world away. In every subject too, every thread, with literally against every poster and in multiple forums...

It's really funny to see after a while...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 15, 2020, 06:39:48 PM
BACK TO DISCUSSION OF VACCINES

BillyB mentioned how Moderna has readily released its clinical test results to promote the progress in the development of their vaccine, including partial results for its Phase 2 trial.   Concurrently Moderna raised investment money, and some insiders sold stock. 

Other phrama companies have released less information.  One, the venture between Oxford University and the British-Swedish drug company AstraZeneca, has yet to release its Phase 1 Trial results.  Nevertheless,  WHO stated that of all the 100+ vaccine ventures being undertaken worldwide,  Oxford-AstraZeneca's vaccine  is the "most advanced in terms of development."   In fact, its Phase 3 trial is already underway in many countries around the globe.

Its Phase 1 results will be published Monday in Lancet.   And expectations are high.   AZ claims to have the capacity to produce two billion doses for the world.  The venture is participating in the US's Operation Warp Speed program.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 15, 2020, 07:38:45 PM
Let's talk about your posting style, using this as an example:     

Your responses were:  immediate, no thought, unconnected, false, and seemingly emotional.....you suffer from anxiety, don't you.  It must become excruciatingly at times, especially to others.   

Let's talk about my 'posting style'..because . ?  Because you are 'upset' at my pointing out you're ( once again ) posting uninformed tosh ? .. :popcorn:

Why bother? These guys have nothing to do all day but Google. They Google so much they actually believe they've become omniscient. They even start telling you what's happening in your own backyard from half a world away. In every subject too, every thread, with literally against every poster and in multiple forums...

It's really funny to see after a while...



Said the chap who keeps pushing HCQ's 'efficacy' re treating COVID-19 ...


There are numerous strains of SARS-COV2 out there but the mutations aren't big enough to worry yet.

And you base this 'bizarre factoid' on who's findings ? 

The experts believe the vaccines that are being developed will be able to take on all current strains. If we can eliminate this virus off the planet earth, we won't need to worry about a big enough mutation that current vaccines won't work against.

Could you please show us where you Googled THAT ? ..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 15, 2020, 08:19:42 PM
.
And you base this 'bizarre factoid' on who's findings ? 

Could you please show us where you Googled THAT ? ..



It's easy to Google this info but apparently you failed. You must think the best and brightest minds in the development of vaccines failed to account for ALL the current strains of the Coronavirus out there. Who's the knucklehead?


http://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85604 (http://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19/85604)


http://www.healthline.com/health-news/what-to-know-about-mutation-and-covid-19 (http://www.healthline.com/health-news/what-to-know-about-mutation-and-covid-19)


US Army Scientists working with AstraZenca doens't think it's a problem and AstraZenca thinks they may have a vaccine as early as October.


http://www.defenseone.com/technology/2020/06/army-scientist-all-strains-covid-19-can-be-covered-one-vaccine/165851/ (http://www.defenseone.com/technology/2020/06/army-scientist-all-strains-covid-19-can-be-covered-one-vaccine/165851/)


http://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/05/21/trump-administration-accelerates-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-to-be-available-beginning-in-october.html (http://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/05/21/trump-administration-accelerates-astrazeneca-covid-19-vaccine-to-be-available-beginning-in-october.html)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 15, 2020, 08:41:45 PM

It's easy to Google this info but apparently you failed.

I asked YOU to 'backup your source' and knew you'd prove who's the 'knucklehead'... you didn't disappoint.

It is now mid July and I'll remind you in October ( when your experts are making excuses as to the weaknesses of their product ) who knew better..

Here's an article that should explain why you're being ignorant and overly optimistic

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/22/why-we-might-not-get-a-coronavirus-vaccine
 (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/22/why-we-might-not-get-a-coronavirus-vaccine)

You have informed fellow posters of the myth re 'herd immunity' but proceed to prove you failed to understand why ..

Here's the truth:

More likely is we will end up with a vaccine, or a number of vaccines, that are only partially effective.



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 15, 2020, 08:54:39 PM

Here's an article that should explain why you're being ignorant and overly optimistic

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/22/why-we-might-not-get-a-coronavirus-vaccine
 (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/22/why-we-might-not-get-a-coronavirus-vaccine)



There's nothing in that article that disagrees with anything I've ever said. I've always said there had never been a safe and effective vaccine created for any coronavirus in history but I also understand the rules will be relaxed to find a vaccine this time and they will put something out even if it doesn't meet normal standards for effectiveness. I've always stated any vaccine will not work on 100% of the people. It may not even work for half the people who take a vaccine. After the first wave of vaccines come out, there will be continued work to create improved vaccines. The pursuit of better vaccines will last for years.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 15, 2020, 10:09:28 PM
They even start telling you what's happening in your own backyard from half a world away.

Is interesting that much the dire situation we face today as a nation is brought about by ignoring and not learning from what happened half a world away, what worked and what did not.

Some call it 'denial', I call it 'terminal uniqueness'.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 15, 2020, 10:49:10 PM
Is interesting that much the dire situation we face today as a nation is brought about by ignoring and not learning from what happened half a world away, what worked and what did not.

Some call it 'denial', I call it 'terminal uniqueness'.

we as a nation?’
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 15, 2020, 10:56:47 PM
Indeed.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 16, 2020, 01:09:54 AM

There's nothing in that article that disagrees with anything I've ever said.

Come October, BillyB ..

'My' article ( clearly) and in layman's terms, showed what difficulties finding a safe and reliable vaccine will have..given you also remind us of 'herd immunity' being a fallacy..

Now you know why...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 16, 2020, 01:29:04 AM
Moby,

You know the old saying 'You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.'

There is no way to make folks drink around here so why do you insist they do so all the time, very often in an insulting manner?

This is what I interpreted from Gator's remark earlier in this thread.

Post your ideas and thoughts in a constructive manner and leave it at that is my suggestion.

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 16, 2020, 03:10:33 AM
BACK TO DISCUSSION OF VACCINES

The most important discussion regarding vaccines is :  "What do we do until a vaccine is declared effective, safe and has been distributed?"

Obviously the current situation can't continue as is or?   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 16, 2020, 04:09:54 AM


Post your ideas and thoughts in a constructive manner and leave it at that is my suggestion.

 

You mean like your exchange with GQB ? ;)

Look, Phil gives as good as he gets and whether he shares the same opinion, I think we'd get on in reality ..and he shouldn't get so butt-hurt about being corrected.


All the same , I will try to be kinder
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 16, 2020, 04:54:06 AM
You mean like your exchange with GQB ? ;)

I have no issues with that exchange.  Of course I'm nowhere near perfect but have my responses been insulting or otherwise uncouth or vindictive?  I do consciously try to keep my replies somwhat within 'normal' bounds.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 16, 2020, 05:48:31 AM
Of course I'm nowhere near perfect but have my responses been insulting or otherwise uncouth or vindictive?  I do consciously try to keep my replies somwhat within 'normal' bounds.

*I* thought the exchange with GQB was out of order, but not on your side.

I think when someone calls you a worm ( or similar) when you point out they've got it WRONG re a drug ( HCQ) others needed for a purpose that actually worked and was involved in suggesting I 'hacked the forum' can expect short shrift ;)

Gator was a gentleman and apologised
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 16, 2020, 05:57:31 AM
*I* thought the exchange with GQB was out of order, but not on your side.

That's quite ok.  I try to not inherit a bad hair day from others.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 16, 2020, 06:01:49 AM
..and he shouldn't get so butt-hurt about being corrected.

I admit when I am wrong, something impossible for you to do.1

Yesterday's three examples: 

1.  You claimed "herd immunity" is a myth.   I gave you a renown medical science source confirming  the concept (Mayo Clinic); you gave me none to support your lame thinking.  Herd immunity is real; the problem with herd immunity is getting there (60-70% infection levels).  Where is your scientific source?  You don't have one, do you.

2.  Regarding your comment about Trump and Fauci - wrong.   You should not depend on a biased news media constantly criticizing Trump.  Fauci remains a key part of the White House team.    Trump chastised the offender on his staff, even though that staff person alerted Trump to the pandemic before Fauci, prompting Trump's China traveler restrictions.  And Fauci misled the nation about masks.  And the issue regarding Fauci and HCQ is now in appellate court.   

3.  Regarding your comment stating a COVID-19 vaccine will not be developed.  As of today you are correct, yet you ignore the absolutely huge, warp speed  development program now underway.   I believe more than one effective vaccination protocol are coming.  Yes, my philosophy is "the sun will come out tomorrow."   Yes, I have problems with those who spout "life is a shit sandwich, and then you die."   

______________________________________________________________________
1  Exhibited in our attested, precise wager about economic growth in Trump's first two years vs. Obama's final year, where you refused to admit  Trump's 2.5% and 3.1%  are better than Obama's 1.5%.  Numbers don't lie, do they 'little man.'

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24423.msg538159#msg538159
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 16, 2020, 06:18:34 AM
The most important discussion regarding vaccines is :  "What do we do until a vaccine is declared effective, safe and has been distributed?"

Obviously the current situation can't continue as is or?

That's the critical issue.   

I feel we have no choice but to keep the economy partially open and take measures to keep infections at an endemic level, albeit high, yet short of exponential growth.   Our people will not accept total lockdown. And our nation's capabilities in tracing and isolating of the vulnerable/infected are not effective in eliminating the spread.   

Even testing is problematic.  Info now comes out that shows the test statistics compiled by Florida are  over-reporting "positives" and under-reporting "negatives."  An investigation is underway.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 16, 2020, 07:36:15 AM
I admit when I am wrong, something impossible for you to do.1

Yesterday's three examples: 

1.  You claimed "herd immunity" is a myth.   I gave you a renown medical science source confirming  the concept (Mayo Clinic); you gave me none to support your lame thinking.  Herd immunity is real; the problem with herd immunity is getting there (60-70% infection levels).  Where is your scientific source?  You don't have one, do you.

Sighs, I have offered lay man's explanations - several times to explain the notion of 'herd immunity'

AGAIN.. let's take Stockholm in Sweden.. 

1/ What is the percentage of population there showing antibodies present ? Under eight percent - a clear FAIL on the numbers front, Phil...

2/ How long does the presence of anti-bodies give one immunity from the Common Cold .. a Corona Virus ? ... 


So much for 'example 1' ... But can you acknowledge your mistake there ?

 
2.  Regarding your comment about Trump and Fauci - wrong.   You should not depend on a biased news media constantly criticizing Trump.  Fauci remains a key part of the White House team.    Trump chastised the offender on his staff, even though that staff person alerted Trump to the pandemic before Fauci, prompting Trump's China traveler restrictions.  And Fauci misled the nation about masks.  And the issue regarding Fauci and HCQ is now in appellate court.   

Again, I like your Dr Fauci - as he learns stuff he acknowledges same and isn't afraid to suggest otherwise.  Masks ? Unless they are respirators and / or one wears a face visor .. pretty much a gesture .. given the virus molecules are far smaller that the coverings.  But I'd wear one in an enclosed space or if decreed mandatory in the jurisdiction I'm in..

Watching the 'brown-nosing' of Trampu's' aides re attempting to diss Dr Fauci is stomach churning

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/15/dr-fauci-donald-trump-attacks-covid-19 (http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/15/dr-fauci-donald-trump-attacks-covid-19)

'Trampu' keeps down-playing COVID-10 despite the numbers of new cases and the 'We told you so' message that those with any common sense must be realising ( hint: opening up too early )

   
3.  Regarding your comment stating a COVID-19 vaccine will not be developed.  As of today you are correct, yet you ignore the absolutely huge, warp speed  development program now underway.   I believe more than one effective vaccination protocol are coming.  Yes, my philosophy is "the sun will come out tomorrow."   Yes, I have problems with those who spout "life is a shit sandwich, and then you die."   

I'm not 'glass half full', Phil .. just working with smarter people in the medical field on a daily basis ...  No harm in believing, but base it on science.


To cap it all .. you post a message you told us was 'gone' ( I had hacked it and apologised for same  ) where YOU suggest I accepted your 'criteria' for a bet...  *I* accepted on the basis of proving the UK and US economies were in total parallel recoveries - irrespective of leader / political party ..  My point being macro economics was at play ..irrespective of policy.

Your 'proof' is simply demonstrating you're STILL not accepting you lost and I never agreed to your parameters.

 :deadhorse:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 16, 2020, 08:47:20 AM
Masks ? Unless they are respirators and / or one wears a face visor .. pretty much a gesture .. given the virus molecules are far smaller that the coverings. 





You've been told people don't cough, sneeze or breathe out viruses but it still hasn't registered with you. They cough, sneeze, and breathe out water droplets which viruses ride on. Masks can stop most of those water droplets.


It's common sense from an infected person's mouth to yours, two filters are better than one or none yet a few months ago you were telling people masks are useless. If anybody still has doubts about masks, imagine this virus kills 100% of the people it infects. You'll change your mind about masks when going out in public because deep down you know the truth is it will help to some degree. But continue on telling people the wearing of masks is simply a gesture.




The most important discussion regarding vaccines is :  "What do we do until a vaccine is declared effective, safe and has been distributed?"

Obviously the current situation can't continue as is or?   


America is expected to have 52,000 deaths per week from all causes this time of year. As long as we aren't exceeding that, we will be fine. Getting back to living life and being productive, we are bound to have outbreaks in cities. We do not need to shut down the whole country anymore and need to take action where there are outbreaks.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 16, 2020, 09:06:00 AM
….But continue on telling people the wearing of masks is simply a gesture.

:ROFL:

That's actually a leap from the resident Googler who declared wearing N95 mask will choke a person after 30-minutes of use 'based' on information he gathered from the 'professional medical group' he supposedly hangs around with EVERYDAY.

LMAO!

msmob is the perfect of example of what happens to people who rely on surface information from Googled sources. There's a very obvious shallow level of comprehension they cannot go beyond. More times than not, they advance an 'opinion article' from a politically-driven media rag like the Guardian as the depth of their 'expertise' on any given subject.

His real life insecurities is always clearly displayed in his each and every post.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 16, 2020, 09:16:57 AM
BACK TO DISCUSSION OF VACCINES

Whether or not any of these recently touted vaccine/s proved to be effective to any degree will undoubtedly have a very positive broad effect nationally at this time.

One thing is certain, if the vaccine proved 75% effective, the media will definitely sensationalize the 25% - at least until after the election. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 16, 2020, 10:43:32 AM
Sighs, I have offered lay man's explanations - several times to explain the notion of 'herd immunity'

You are not a scientist, and you have trouble explaining your position.  Rather than hurting my eyes, just name a scientific source equivalent to the Mayo Clinic proclaiming your viewpoint.

To make it clear, I am not suggesting the pursuit of herd immunity - so please don't label me that way.  Vaccines are the answer.



Quote
Watching the 'brown-nosing' of Trampu's' aides re attempting to diss Dr Fauci is stomach churning



The left-leaning Guardian!!!!  Why stop there. - CNN should have some juicier accusations.     

To make it clear, the White House has been and will continue to be an energetic place.  Through it all,, Fauci has remained, and he continues to participate as a valuable member of the COVID team.  .   
 

   
Quote
I'm not 'glass half full', Phil .. just working with smarter people in the medical field on a daily basis ...

It doesn't show. 

To make it clear, I believe neither. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 16, 2020, 10:58:54 AM
I’ve actually paid money to get “The Vektor Vaccine” in Russia in September...
and have had extensive medical consultation about it...

I expect to have some mild symptoms, like a mild cold, after vaccination
I expect to quarantine for 30 days in a luxury suite with medical staff, and have my anti-bodies tested daily
after 30 days, I get a medical certificate that states my anti-body levels
and I am allowed to have free travel within Russia and get a special stamp on my visa...
also, I have been encouraged to give plasma on Russian TV for PR
along with donations of PPE in Putin’s name and patriotism

even after the vaccine, and even with a high anti-body count I will not have full immunity to Corona!

if there is a new mutation, my anti-bodies may not work against it....
also, the effectiveness of the anti-bodies begins to decrease almost immediately
and after 3 years will be almost non existent

I am hoping that the vaccine will allow me to attend my oldest daughter’s wedding in Moscow in October without getting infected and that’s about it.....

if I don’t get infected in Russia this fall/winter
even with the vaccine from there
I can easily get infected when I return to the USA
due to a combination of reduced anti-bodies and new strains

vaccines and herd immunity should help reduce the spread of the virus, but will not eliminate it completely
it's here to stay!

from now on, we are going to have a yearly Corona rate just like we have a yearly flu rate...
this number will start to stabilize in maybe 3 years or so....
but still probably number in the millions per year in the USA
a number we will have to learn to live with forever...

opening schools, is an attempt to reach herd immunity
especially, doing this right before flu season
I guarantee that opening schools will cause a new much higher peak at the end of September
which PURELY BY COINCIDENCE
also happens to be THE START OF FLU SEASON!!
which is the OPTIMUM environment for this virus!!


so I predict that in November and December
more Americans will get Corona
than in the period of February to October!!!!
we will probably have herd immunity levels of infection by then of  more than 70% or so testing positive vrs 23% today in Houston

but...
because 6 months from now, literally almost EVERYONE has already been exposed to Corona virus in the USA
there will be NO POINT to shutting down businesses any more!!!
so everything can stay open forever!!

yeah! Wall Street!
Thank you America for your sacrifices
the million dead



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 16, 2020, 12:00:36 PM

To cap it all .. you post a message you told us was 'gone' ( I had hacked it and apologised for same  ) where YOU suggest I accepted your 'criteria' for a bet...  *I* accepted on the basis of proving the UK and US economies were in total parallel recoveries - irrespective of leader / political party ..   


Yes you accepted, and a few days later you reminded me of the wager.  Each time, agreeing to specific terms about comparing Trump's economy with Obama's economy, not UK vs. US.

What were those SPECIFIC TERMS?


Returning to my position about how the economy has improved under Trump. Let's compare the following economic measures for two periods:  the four quarters  before Trump (4Q2015-3Q2016) vs. the post-Trump period (1Q2017-2Q2019).


In the same post, I next threw down the glove as follows.

Quote
This will take some work.  Are you game?  I agree to eat crow if these three all-important  haven't improved since the Obama period.  If wrong, will you return to the board with black feathers dangling from your lips?   

And you soon accepted, even quoting the same specific terms.




Returning to my position about how the economy has improved under Trump. Let's compare the following economic measures for two periods:  the four quarters  before Trump (4Q2015-3Q2016) vs. the post-Trump period (1Q2017-2Q2019).

GDP expansion rate
Job creation rate (or unemployment rate)
Inflation rate

This will take some work.  Are you game?  I agree to eat crow if these three all-important  haven't improved since the Obama period.  If wrong, will you return to the board with black feathers dangling from your lips?   

I am game.. please post the graphs :)


Where do you say you accept on the basis of comparing the UK and US economies.   It doesn't, does it.  The bet was comparing Trump vs. Obama, the same Obama whose recovery was slowing.


And a few days later, you reminded me of our wager, again quoting the same specific terms


Dear Gator,

Just to remind you ..I accepted the challenge.. and await graphs to 'support' your stance..


Again, at no point did we conflate the terms of the wager with a comparison of US vs. UK. 

YOU LOST.  IT IS TIME TO EAT CROW, OR WILL YOU STAY IN D-E-N-I-A-L.  You spend so much time on the River De Nile, it seems you would want to join the honorable.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 16, 2020, 12:07:14 PM

The left-leaning Guardian!!!!  Why stop there. - CNN should have some juicier accusations.     

To make it clear, the White House has been and will continue to be an energetic place.  Through it all,, Fauci has remained, and he continues to participate as a valuable member of the COVID team. 
 



Fake News continues to try to make it look like there's a fight between Fauci and Trump. They are hurting the country in their attempt to bring Trump down. Fauci said Trump always listened to his advice. He said he's not meeting Trump as often because Trump is focused on economy. Fauci also gave a recent interview saying "It's pretty tough walking a tightrope while trying to get your message out and people are trying to pit you against the president. It's very stressful."



I’ve actually paid money to get “The Vektor Vaccine” in Russia in September...
and have had extensive medical consultation about it...



Russia is working hard to get you a high quality vaccine

http://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/16/us-uk-and-canada-say-russia-trying-to-steal-coronavirus-vaccine-data.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/16/us-uk-and-canada-say-russia-trying-to-steal-coronavirus-vaccine-data.html)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 16, 2020, 08:44:14 PM
That's the critical issue. 

Are we adequately addressing it? You do realize that as it stands today, a doubling of our deaths to a quarter million is almost certain, maybe even low? 

Quote
I feel we have no choice but to keep the economy partially open and take measures to keep infections at an endemic level, albeit high, yet short of exponential growth.
   

We can't 'keep infections at an endemic level' if they are on the rise as we may already be in rapid exponential growth and not know about it until down the road.  Considering this isn't it prudent to react while we can?

Quote
Our people will not accept total lockdown. And our nation's capabilities in tracing and isolating of the vulnerable/infected are not effective in eliminating the spread.
   

And locking down is our only true defense at this point.  Unfortunately we don't want to realize it.  The house is burning and we're still trying to figure out whether to call the fire dept?

Quote
Even testing is problematic.  Info now comes out that shows the test statistics compiled by Florida are  over-reporting "positives" and under-reporting "negatives."  An investigation is underway.

Testing has always been problematic it seems. Why after so many months are we not able to get a grip on this vitally important aspect of managing the crisis while touting 'The most, the best, the most accurate in the world!'?  Ditto with reporting of deaths.  Why all the confusion?

Gotta admit Gator, we're rapidly spiralling out of control, if not 'there' already.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 16, 2020, 08:56:42 PM
:ROFL:

That's actually a leap from the resident Googler who declared wearing N95 mask will choke a person after 30-minutes of use 'based' on information he gathered from the 'professional medical group' he supposedly hangs around with EVERYDAY.

LMAO!

msmob is the perfect of example of what happens to people who rely on surface information from Googled sources. There's a very obvious shallow level of comprehension they cannot go beyond. More times than not, they advance an 'opinion article' from a politically-driven media rag like the Guardian as the depth of their 'expertise' on any given subject.

His real life insecurities is always clearly displayed in his each and every post.

GQB,

Why do you repeat fibs you've already been busted for ?

I NEVER said "you'd 'choke'" .. I DID say you might suffer breathing difficulties with prolonged use and published an article by a US doctor that demonstrated that I was wrong ..She wore hers all day ...not comfortable, but oxygen levels remained fine.

This is now the THIRD time I've corrected your lying...   I suspect this may be because you're butt-hurt re the efficacy of HCQ re treating COVID-19 patients... FAIL

Your constant need to make stuff up to 'support' your 'contentions' is telling

The Guardian is not a 'rag'..  It has a left of centre editorial, but carries stories that embarrass the left, too. 



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on July 17, 2020, 05:40:14 AM


America is expected to have 52,000 deaths per week from all causes this time of year. As long as we aren't exceeding that, we will be fine. 
Have we been exceeding the 52,000 deaths a week?   I read 940 died yesterday in the USA. 
In the scheme of things some might say 52,000 deaths or 59,000 deaths, a week, what is the difference?  Of course the numbers could wind up being much greater still. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 17, 2020, 06:36:24 AM
Are we adequately addressing it? You do realize that as it stands today, a doubling of our deaths to a quarter million is almost certain, maybe even low? 

Doubling is still well under a million.  Yes it sounds crass, given we are talking about the tragedy of real lives lost.
However, it is an acceptable loss in my book given the options.
   

Quote
We can't 'keep infections at an endemic level' if they are on the rise as we may already be in rapid exponential growth and not know about it until down the road.  Considering this isn't it prudent to react while we can?

I leave it to CDC, et al to decide if the hospitals can manage the wave.  Houston is now a critical case.  Remember NYC in March-April?  The Feds delivered a hospital ship and converted a convention center into a mammoth hospital for overflow.   The two went unused.
   

Quote
And locking down is our only true defense at this point.  Unfortunately we don't want to realize it.  The house is burning and we're still trying to figure out whether to call the fire dept?

The house has pockets of smoke, and yes there is damage.  Fire fighters have been deployed.  Federal oversight is engaged.  Inhabitants need not vacate the house, yet need to avoid the burning areas and take precautions if they must venture there. 

Quote
Testing has always been problematic it seems. Why after so many months are we not able to get a grip on this vitally important aspect of managing the crisis while touting 'The most, the best, the most accurate in the world!'?  Ditto with reporting of deaths.  Why all the confusion?

An investigation is underway in Florida.  The reasons likely are many.  I believe none smack of incompetence, and all are problems with the rapid ramping up.  How well did the Obamacare website work when it opened, and that was just a website?

Reporting:  Getting results is still taking three days in FL.  Too long IMO. 

Compiling:   Tests are complied from hundreds of labs who presumably are working seven days per week.   However, FL's daily reports vary from 50,000 to 100,000 tests when I would assume the actual daily number is fairly constant with a trend upward.  Something is amiss.

Double counting:  Some patients are being tested 5-6 times, and each is reported as a "positive case."

Under reporting:  Some labs did not report negative tests. 

Everything else:  Use your imagination.  That's just testing, and you mentioned how classification and reporting of deaths  is also suspect.  I hope politics is not a factor. 


Quote
  Gotta admit Gator, we're rapidly spiralling out of control, if not 'there' already.

The number of reported positive cases is an overstatement of the situation, yet it is becoming worse. Hospitalizations and deaths are showing an upward trend in my home Florida.  IMO "out of control" is an overstatement, yet  I venture out less.  My son more in his work (real estate appraiser in high demand market given refi's at 3% for 30-yr fixed).  It requires him to enter existing homes for inspection, so he and I don't meet.  If I see a younger person without a mask, I run away.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 17, 2020, 08:18:58 AM
Doubling is still well under a million.  Yes it sounds crass, given we are talking about the tragedy of real lives lost.
However, it is an acceptable loss in my book given the options.

You do realize this would put the US far ahead of Italy and most other countries with deaths per million population?
   
Quote
I leave it to CDC, et al to decide if the hospitals can manage the wave.  Houston is now a critical case.  Remember NYC in March-April?  The Feds delivered a hospital ship and converted a convention center into a mammoth hospital for overflow.   The two went unused.

I thought CDC was no longer receiving hospital data... or?  Also remember that NY locked down and stayed home for the prolonged period necessary for infections to drop.  Their infections graphic looks much the same as ours indicating the effectiveness of the measurs they implemented.  I doubt any of the most affected states nowadays expects to follow suit to such an extent.
   
Quote
The house has pockets of smoke, and yes there is damage.  Fire fighters have been deployed.  Federal oversight is engaged.  Inhabitants need not vacate the house, yet need to avoid the burning areas and take precautions if they must venture there. 

With an invisible wind we cannot even feel blowing the flames and embers across the nation..   Federal oversight?  I thought that was back to the states now to determine their own actions, like IIRC Georgia who is suing Atlanta for mandating the use of masks.

There seems to be much reticence to take the threat seriously.  This is very disturbing and only amplifies the inability of our leaders to manage such crises and motivate our population to take prudent efforts to mitigate, not only for themselves but others as well.


Quote
An investigation is underway in Florida.  The reasons likely are many.  I believe none smack of incompetence, and all are problems with the rapid ramping up.  How well did the Obamacare website work when it opened, and that was just a website?


Was Obamacare a crisis of this magnitude?  Did hundreds of thousands die because a website was temporarily out of order?  I sense you are grasping at straws my friend.

Quote
Reporting:  Getting results is still taking three days in FL.  Too long IMO. 

Compiling:   Tests are complied from hundreds of labs who presumably are working seven days per week.   However, FL's daily reports vary from 50,000 to 100,000 tests when I would assume the actual daily number is fairly constant with a trend upward.  Something is amiss.

Double counting:  Some patients are being tested 5-6 times, and each is reported as a "positive case."

Under reporting:  Some labs did not report negative tests. 

Everything else:  Use your imagination.  That's just testing, and you mentioned how classification and reporting of deaths  is also suspect.  I hope politics is not a factor. 

We have some of the greatest data acquisition, storage and distribution structures along with plenty of qualified folks available to us.  It is absolutely preposterous we can get out sh~t together on this.

Quote
The number of reported positive cases is an overstatement of the situation, yet it is becoming worse. Hospitalizations and deaths are showing an upward trend in my home Florida.  IMO "out of control" is an overstatement, yet  I venture out less.  My son more in his work (real estate appraiser in high demand market given refi's at 3% for 30-yr fixed).  It requires him to enter existing homes for inspection, so he and I don't meet.  If I see a younger person without a mask, I run away.

Fear is a terrible thing Gator, and we have no one other than ourselves to blame for the state we are in.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 17, 2020, 07:56:14 PM
Have we been exceeding the 52,000 deaths a week?   I read 940 died yesterday in the USA. 
In the scheme of things some might say 52,000 deaths or 59,000 deaths, a week, what is the difference?  Of course the numbers could wind up being much greater still. 

Fathertime!

America should be averaging 52,000 deaths from all causes at this time of year. We are averaging less than that even with COVID-19 raging. Why? Because we changed our behavior by being less active, engaging in social distancing and taking extra steps protecting the elderly, we have less deaths from injuries and other illnesses. Save this chart below.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm#dashboard


   
I thought CDC was no longer receiving hospital data... or? 



A few days ago Fake News NY Times broke the story to give people the impression the White House wants total control and will manipulate the numbers to make Trump look good. The White House does want COVID-19 data faster so they can make decisions on ventilators and where to take action instead of having the data pass through numerous hands. CDC won't control the data but they will still post it.

http://www.livescience.com/hhs-will-bypass-cdc-covid19-data-collection.html

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 17, 2020, 08:39:55 PM
CDC won't control the data but they will still post it.

http://www.livescience.com/hhs-will-bypass-cdc-covid19-data-collection.html

Indeed.  After CDC stopped posting data and folks raised objections, they started posting again.  We'll see.

I'm all for faster and better data and don't really like the way CDC does it, but at least it was a stable and consistent baseline source.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 17, 2020, 08:49:23 PM

CDC never stopped getting data even for the short time they stopped posting. They can't do their job without data. If an Obama White House wanted the data faster, there wouldn't be objections. There would be praise for the good decision.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 17, 2020, 09:18:40 PM
Best to finish building a bridge before blocking the old one.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 17, 2020, 11:44:41 PM
I didn't check if this is viewable outside the UK, but it seems to make it very clear why that the USA took it's foot off the gas, too soon..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-53423637/coronavirus-us-v-other-countries-did-it-mess-up-its-reopening (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-53423637/coronavirus-us-v-other-countries-did-it-mess-up-its-reopening)

"Coronavirus: US v other countries... did it mess up its reopening?
While European countries have managed to keep new infections at bay, by the time most Americans had emerged from lockdown restrictions, a second surge in cases was already under way.

Were the requirements met to safely reopen and how much testing was actually being done?"
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 18, 2020, 12:45:23 AM
Moby,

Other than NY and a couple of other places maybe, there was no intent to beat the virus.  Efforts were only to keep the hospitals from getting overloaded.  By reopening from limited measures we see the effects, the virus turned loose, hospitals filling and more deaths.

It is still the first wave, unleashed... that few places have under any semblance of control.  By the time a city, county or state experiences growth in infections it is far too late to 'control' without drastic containment measures.

Misplaced priorities IMHO that only extend troubles and impede recovery.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on July 18, 2020, 06:05:05 AM
America should be averaging 52,000 deaths from all causes at this time of year. We are averaging less than that even with COVID-19 raging. Why? Because we changed our behavior by being less active, engaging in social distancing and taking extra steps protecting the elderly, we have less deaths from injuries and other illnesses. Save this chart below.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm#dashboard


 
Hola!   I viewed the chart, and unless I'm mistaken the US is averaging much more than the baseline death rate for the past couple months.  In the last week it seemed to settle down but then I read that it takes a couple weeks to update so that number will also do nothing but rise.    Based on this particular chart, it seems the overall death rate has increased in recent months. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 18, 2020, 08:03:47 AM
Hola!   I viewed the chart, and unless I'm mistaken the US is averaging much more than the baseline death rate for the past couple months.  In the last week it seemed to settle down but then I read that it takes a couple weeks to update so that number will also do nothing but rise.    Based on this particular chart, it seems the overall death rate has increased in recent months. 

Fathertime!

Last few months is when NY and surrounding States were on fire. But the current trend is going downward and we are now below the threshold for what should be a normal amount of deaths.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 18, 2020, 09:25:25 AM
Is Billy is trying  to say.. that in the USA,  it's 'OK' to have a rolling 7 day death rate:

nearly double that of Sweden and the UK ..

7 times that of Canada

10 times that of Italy

50 times that of Germany

100 times that of S.Korea...

'OK'..


http://ourworldindata.org/grapher/daily-covid-deaths-per-million-7-day-average?country=ITA~USA~GBR~KOR~CAN~DEU~SWE ( as of 18th July,2020)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 18, 2020, 09:45:25 AM
What Billy wants to believe is another model that can, and will change in the future until actual figures are in sometime down the road.  As such, the farther back one looks on the chart the more accurate it should be.

IOW chasing a mirage of 'all's well'.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 18, 2020, 10:29:37 AM

Some of you guys want to focus on COVID-19 without factoring anything else important in life. Trump does factor other important things to run this country. If you don't think less deaths across the board are happening because doing less activity, stopping visits to old folks home, and practicing social distancing which translates to less injury, illness and death, please explain why. It's common sense.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 18, 2020, 10:45:11 AM
BillyB,

As much as you want to try, you can't rationalize Covid away.

Next time you get in your car, don't belt up.  After all, for this week the chart did not show any excess deaths.  In fact it shows no deaths at all.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 18, 2020, 10:52:26 AM
As much as you want to try, you can't rationalize Covid away.


You are rationalizing every other important thing in life away by wanting to run the country based only by what COVID-19 does.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 18, 2020, 12:24:07 PM
No Billy,

In Italy, 14 people died today from Covid 50 are in ICU and hospitals are quiet. Life is pretty much normal and businesses are recovering there are no lockdowns, no beaches closed, restaraunts and bars are open and the risk of getting infected very low..

How many will die in the US today, how many are in ICU and why are hospitals very busy? Is life normal and are businesses recovering when many are having to shut down a second time because the risk of infection is so high?

For the average resident in Italy, chances of getting infected today are 1 in a quarter million.  The US 1 in 5000.

Now tell me which country is having to rationalize as justification for the way they are handling Covid. 

It's really that simple Billy.  Face reality for a change.




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 18, 2020, 05:11:52 PM
GQB,
Why do you repeat fibs you've already been busted for ? I NEVER said "you'd 'choke'" .. I DID say you might suffer breathing difficulties with prolonged use and published an article by a US doctor that demonstrated that I was wrong ..She wore hers all day ...not comfortable, but oxygen levels remained fine. ..

Lie No. 1
 
Unless you're senile, after BillyB stated his wife was going shopping and took N95 mask with her, you posted a caution to stop her because she’d choke after 30 minutes of use. The US doctor article you posted was more recent. These two postings are almost 2 months apart. Ask BillyB if you are senile, you slime.
 
Quote
This is now the THIRD time I've corrected your lying...   I suspect this may be because you're butt-hurt re the efficacy of HCQ re treating COVID-19 patients... FAIL

Lie No. 2
 
Just because you ignore what’s being given to you doesn’t mean it didn’t exist. Here it is again.
 
Treatment with Hydroxychloroquine Cut Death Rate Significantly in COVID-19 Patients, Henry Ford Health System Study Shows (http://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study)
 
Like I said: Contact page baby! http://www.henryford.com/about/contact (http://www.henryford.com/about/contact) 
 
Challenge them worm! Tell them you hang out with the greatest medical minds and Google. Tell them their report is bogus...you're not impressing anyone here.
 
Quote
Your constant need to make stuff up to 'support' your 'contentions' is telling
The Guardian is not a 'rag'..  It has a left of centre editorial, but carries stories that embarrass the left, too.

 :ROFL:
 
Yeah, did you also know CNN's slogan is *The Most Trusted Name in News*? Like CNN, the Guardian is a rag...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 18, 2020, 05:56:34 PM
For the average resident in Italy, chances of getting infected today are 1 in a quarter million.  The US 1 in 5000.

HOLY SMOKES! You've found the chalice where mankind had failed before. Must be so cool to be so absolute in your statement!


Extracting almost a quarter of a million confirmed cases, this leaves Italy's population at roughly 59 million, 750 thousands who apparently is not 'yet' infected. So one every 249,999 can and/or will be infected. WOW! You said that with a straight facial post, too. Absolutely amazing. (:::::We'll ignore that just today Italy actually got 249 new cases, ok? I won't tell anyone if you don't::::)

According to you then, Italy will, or may, suffer another 239 infections, or less, from today forward. From a novel virus with no known cure at this time, I just want to say, WOW! How'd you know for certain? Let me guess, CNN?

Man...if BS was a rock, this one is so huge it'll cast shadow before impact. You gotta love the internet, man. Absolutely amazing things you see.

Quote
Now tell me which country is having to rationalize as justification for the way they are handling Covid. 
LMAO. Since it's YOU who is asking, I'll guess...I think you'll say, USA. Why? Let me guess again, because it's Trump's fault and we're leaderless. Am I at least warm?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 18, 2020, 10:16:09 PM

 
Unless you're senile, after BillyB stated his wife was going shopping and took N95 mask with her, you posted a caution to stop her because she’d choke after 30 minutes of use. The US doctor article you posted was more recent. These two postings are almost 2 months apart. Ask BillyB if you are senile, you slime.

Busted for repeatedly being a FIBBER... #1

You and Billy, don't know how to use the search facility ?

Evidence of putting words in other's mouth ..exhibit A:  You use BillyB's quote .. not my words

I suppose, you'll believe I 'hacked' the forum rather than admit your FAIL



http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24406.msg537658#msg537658 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24406.msg537658#msg537658)

Searching under choking or choke and mask will find only BillyB and your posts .....  :cluebat:


 
Lie No. 2
 
Just because you ignore what’s being given to you doesn’t mean it didn’t exist. Here it is again.
 
Treatment with Hydroxychloroquine Cut Death Rate Significantly in COVID-19 Patients, Henry Ford Health System Study Shows (http://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study)
 
Like I said: Contact page baby! http://www.henryford.com/about/contact (http://www.henryford.com/about/contact) 
 
Challenge them worm! Tell them you hang out with the greatest medical minds and Google. Tell them their report is bogus...you're not impressing anyone here.
 
 :ROFL:

You have already had several posters point out that the OVERWHELMING feeling in the clinical trial community is that HCQ DOES NOT offer any benefit in fighting COVID-19...  At least those really needing it can find it easier now and the price fell back :popcorn:


 
Yeah, did you also know CNN's slogan is *The Most Trusted Name in News*? Like CNN, the Guardian is a rag...

I see further education is necessary..

'Rag' derives from 'Scandal Rag' .. A Tabloid newspaper that sensationalises news.  More interested in People gossip that actual News..

'Thanks'  but as you've just proved ..with your 'evidence' ... you're not the most discerning reader ..






Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 19, 2020, 12:49:09 AM

According to you then, Italy will, or may, suffer another 239 infections, or less, from today forward. From a novel virus with no known cure at this time, I just want to say, WOW! How'd you know for certain? Let me guess, CNN?

Man...if BS was a rock, this one is so huge it'll cast shadow before impact. You gotta love the internet, man. Absolutely amazing things you see.
LMAO. Since it's YOU who is asking, I'll guess...I think you'll say, USA. Why? Let me guess again, because it's Trump's fault and we're leaderless. Am I at least warm?

GQ, Again, your thought processes get blinded by CNN and whatever else bothers you.  If you would have considered my post as one of those word problems in elementary school, you would have noted the frequent use of the word 'today'.  Nothing in my post is based on what was seen/read on CNN aside from the daily number of infections and deaths which are reported on just about every TV news channel including FOX.  Maybe even your blinding fav ONN.  Use your noggin dude.


to·day
/təˈdā/

adverb
on or in the course of this present day.

There... that should help you figure it out.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 19, 2020, 06:06:20 AM
Busted for repeatedly being a FIBBER... #1

You and Billy, don't know how to use the search facility ?

Evidence of putting words in other's mouth ..exhibit A:  You use BillyB's quote .. not my words

I suppose, you'll believe I 'hacked' the forum rather than admit your FAIL


http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24406.msg537658#msg537658 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24406.msg537658#msg537658)

Searching under choking or choke and mask will find only BillyB and your posts .....



I'm not senile, worm. I neither need or rely on the search function on this site as there's been way too much deletion of posts that had gone on here. That fact has undeniably been established. Matter of fact, I have a few screen shots available of posts being deleted.
 
As for the subject at hand, the fact you actually married two different postings that are two months apart have now validated your current senility. I wasn't fully convinced you hacked the site although did state I wouldn't put it past you for the simple reason you possess the type of character to do so. But as one poster clearly spelled out, you don't have the cerebral capacity to execute anything remotely close to doing such.
Quote
You have already had several posters point out that the OVERWHELMING feeling in the clinical trial community is that HCQ DOES NOT offer any benefit in fighting COVID-19...  At least those really needing it can find it easier now and the price fell back :popcorn:



Predictable. *several posters pointing out Overwhelming feelings*? What and who the heck are these posters besides you again? LMAO.
 
Ignore and deflect what's given you just for the benefit of continuing your silly mindless tirade. I provided the contact page, man. File a complaint that the Henry Ford health institution had filed an erroneous study to mislead the public at large. It's their study not mine. Impress their epidemiologists how schooled you are about HCQ and tell them they're full of sh!t.  I, for one, will be anxiously waiting for the result on that. In the midst of it, tell them too that N95 mask will choke people after 30 minutes of use. They'll love that...

Quote

I see further education is necessary..

'Rag' derives from 'Scandal Rag' .. A Tabloid newspaper that sensationalises news.  More interested in People gossip that actual News..

'Thanks'  but as you've just proved ..with your 'evidence' ... you're not the most discerning reader ..


'Rag' is a purveyor of fake, heavily slanted, partizan medium. Guardian, like CNN, is exactly that. I'm glad for the opportunity of edookating you once more. It's not surprising you heavily rely on their opinion articles.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on July 19, 2020, 06:07:37 AM
Last few months is when NY and surrounding States were on fire. But the current trend is going downward and we are now below the threshold for what should be a normal amount of deaths.
The Chart is showing more deaths than normal, except for the past 2 weeks, but it is stated the chart takes between 1-8 weeks to update all deaths.   

It also seems that prior to the epidemic the death rate was below the 52,000 for a long time. 

All in all, at least in the recent months it does appear that there are more deaths overall than the historical average, which shouldn't be surprising. 

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 19, 2020, 06:07:51 AM
GQ, Again, your thought processes get blinded by CNN and whatever else bothers you.  If you would have considered my post as one of those word problems in elementary school, you would have noted the frequent use of the word 'today'.  Nothing in my post is based on what was seen/read on CNN aside from the daily number of infections and deaths which are reported on just about every TV news channel including FOX.  Maybe even your blinding fav ONN.  Use your noggin dude.


to·day
/təˈdā/

adverb
on or in the course of this present day.

There... that should help you figure it out.


*TODAY* BC, Italy had barely tested 10% of their population. I am most certain Italy doesn't know how many cases, (asymptomatic/symptomatic) there are, with equal absolution as you, beyond known cases for the very simple reason they haven't yet been tested.
 
Have you told them you're all knowing and that you've already determined this number with total absolution? I am certain they'll be very happy to know this as this will be an immensely critical information they can certainly use. Tell them too that this is just one aspect of your power. Tell them you also know, with same total absolution, exactly what's going on in any country you haven't been to, or live in, more so than the people actually living there at any given time. Hell, maybe you already have the cure and/or vaccine on hand? You don't say....

Just don't forget to credit CNN for that power of yours...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 19, 2020, 06:09:33 AM
Busted for repeatedly being a FIBBER... #1

Fib - definition:  an unimportant lie

I don't know about GQ's "fibbing."   It seems more like a scientific dispute based on evolving data, yet heightened because it became political in this intensely political era.   

Lie - definition:  a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive

We do know you are a  LIAR, a BIG LIAR.    Its hilarious watching you try to finagle out of your lie.   Each time, digging deeper hole.  Each time, it gives less credence about anything you have posted, making your version of past conflicts, such as Maxx, unbelievable.   

You are in no position to call someone a fibber.  I suggest you cease.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 19, 2020, 06:34:11 AM
Proof is in the pudding GQ.

Positivity rate Italy yesterday .5%  what's ours?  Italy plugs along at steady 50k tests per day which is a quite reasonable 'maintenance' rate to detect and put out any little flareups. Testing can always be increased if the positivity rate justifies doing so.

(http://i.postimg.cc/4Nd3r40Q/Screen-Shot-2020-07-19-at-15-20-40.png)

You can pick any measure you want GQ, we're getting out butt kicked in the US.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 19, 2020, 07:24:01 AM
Proof is in the pudding GQ.

Positivity rate Italy yesterday .5%  what's ours?  Italy plugs along at steady 50k tests per day which is a quite reasonable 'maintenance' rate to detect and put out any little flareups. Testing can always be increased if the positivity rate justifies doing so.

You can pick any measure you want GQ, we're getting out butt kicked in the US.


Is this silly graph a deliberate attempt to compare apples to oranges in your pursuit to obfuscate, BC? Do you really 'see' the comparative rationale in the US v Italy? Or have you intentionally dispensed with the 'relativity' principle just to advance your politically-driven drivel?
 
Once again, how have you equated and arrived with absolution, that it'll take a quarter of a million people for one person to be infected without remotely having an idea exactly how many actually have, or do not have, the virus? By the daily tests results conducted at less than 1% of Italy's population? Is it within the realm of possibility right now that Italy actually have 40% of its population asymptomatically infected already? US, too?

You cannot be this intentionally silly, or patently obtuse, to wholly base your *absolution* of an ongoing and daily process riveted by so many uncertainties.


Take a breather, BC. The election is forthcoming in roughly 150 more days. You've unraveled enough these past 3.5 years.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 19, 2020, 08:11:15 AM
Oh no worries GQ, the exact same argument you pose in defense applies to the US as well, and is simply another discourse fallacy argumentum ad ignorantiam
).


Fortunately, science dictates otherwise as well as low numbers in hospital ICU's and mortuaries in Italy.  Or does your hypothesis include Italians having acquired immunity to the effects of the virus or that the number of tests performed is not statistically relevant?

Defending the indefensible is a slippery slope. Better just to accept we're either not up to the task or simply don't care.  Which will it be?





 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 19, 2020, 09:43:32 AM
Defending the indefensible is a slippery slope. Better just to accept we're either not up to the task or simply don't care.  Which will it be?


Italy had to borrow money to get through this crisis. America loaned money to other countries to get through their crisis. America will be fine. So...to get off this slippery slope you think we're on, what do you think Biden will do differently than Trump? Will he surround Democratically led cities with the military if they let infections get out of control? Will he take control over governors instead of letting them make their own decisions? Will he create and enforce a national mask mandate? What are Biden's positions?


Searching under choking or choke and mask will find only BillyB and your posts .....  :cluebat:


You actually said something worse. How many you know died from wearing a mask? From the coronavirus how it's affecting you thread post #1795 on: April 03, 2020


"I also suggested wearing a mask is pretty pointless - if you're a member of the public, shopping ...

Surgical masks ..within 6 mins are useless ..if your authorities tell you that you've got to wear one, you've not got much choice .. but it's DUMB

OK, got a filter mask .. 'Great' ..you can succumb to asphyxiation".. :wallbash:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 19, 2020, 09:54:24 AM
Oh no worries GQ, the exact same argument you pose in defense applies to the US as well, and is simply another discourse fallacy argumentum ad ignorantiam
).


Fortunately, science dictates otherwise as well as low numbers in hospital ICU's and mortuaries in Italy.  Or does your hypothesis include Italians having acquired immunity to the effects of the virus or that the number of tests performed is not statistically relevant?

Defending the indefensible is a slippery slope. Better just to accept we're either not up to the task or simply don't care.  Which will it be?
 


In your blind obsession, you actually failed to note, which is not surprising, that I haven't taken a stance to 'defend' anything US, nor have i taken a shot at anything 'Italy'. All I asked of you is a semblance of sense in your wayward quantitative assertion. Science, at this time, is inconclusive by virtue of absence of any definitive, static findings. For you to rely on such an unproven, yet ongoing, science as a source of your silly absolution is comical to say the least.

You are drunk with anxiety and despair regarding anything to do under this current administration, I get that. Best plan how life will be like for you if come November things go wayward to that which you aspire it to be these last 4 years. Seeing you behave the way you do, may you find sanity and the least resistant way forward if things don't go your way again.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 19, 2020, 09:56:30 AM
The Chart is showing more deaths than normal, except for the past 2 weeks, but it is stated the chart takes between 1-8 weeks to update all deaths.   

It also seems that prior to the epidemic the death rate was below the 52,000 for a long time. 

All in all, at least in the recent months it does appear that there are more deaths overall than the historical average, which shouldn't be surprising. 

Fathertime!

I've watched that CDC chart for a month. There won't be much added deaths to what you're seeing now. Even with increased deaths from suicides and COVID-19, we are saving lives elsewhere and the last couple of weeks are showing there are less lives lost that what is normally expected for this time of year. Save the page and look at it every week.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 19, 2020, 10:51:33 AM
You are drunk with anxiety and despair regarding anything to do under this current administration, I get that. Best plan how life will be like for you if come November things go wayward to that which you aspire it to be these last 4 years. Seeing you behave the way you do, may you find sanity and the least resistant way forward if things don't go your way again.

Did I mention elections or you in these last exchanges?  No matter.  Anxiety and despair? That's a riot. If we don't agree that's fine and we can leave it at that.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 19, 2020, 11:32:08 AM
REPORT FROM MY STATE - THE "EPICENTER"

Florida DOH just reported its daily updated statistics. 

                                 Total Tests Since Start:   3,006,000
                                 Total Positive Cases:         346,602   (daily increase of 12,401, 2nd highest ever)
                                 Total Hospitalizations:         20,971   (daily increase of 339)
                                 Total Deaths:                       4,982   (daily increase of 77)


Case Fatality Rate (Accumulative Confirmed Deaths as Percentage of Accumulative Confirmed Cases)

                                1 May      3.8%
                                1 June     4.3%
                                1 July      2.3%
                                Today      1.4%


BC, Italy's CFR of 14% is more than twice Florida's hospitalization rate.   My point is that comparing Italy with the US is apples and oranges. 

Regardless, I am envious of "your" low number of daily new cases.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 19, 2020, 12:54:15 PM

BC, Italy's CFR of 14% is more than twice Florida's hospitalization rate.   My point is that comparing Italy with the US is apples and oranges. 

Regardless, I am envious of "your" low number of daily new cases.

Gator,

CFR is one of those 'fuzzy' numbers.  We don't know the number of infections in the US or Italy or any other country for that matter, and even deaths are not absolute, but surely more 'firm' than cases.  Many other variables need to be addressed before it is of true comparative value.

A more 'absolute' 'apples and apples' measure is deaths per million as the population is generally known as well as the number of deaths.  With large numbers of each, the margin for error is less and thus comparitave value is increased.  It also takes into account different mitigation methods healthcare aspects etc.  The only major variable that I can think of that needs to be 'guessed in' are demographic differences, but even that would be small with the large numbers we have at hand today for analysis.

Italy currenly has 580 deaths per million and the US 432.  Now that might seem to be favorable for the US, but we have to remember this number grows.

Over the last couple weeks, daily deaths are around 15 per day, so if it continues at this rate, it takes 4 days to raise the death per million by one.  Daily deaths are getting lower though, today only 3

The US OTOH is experiencing around 700 deaths per day which equates to roughly two per million added each day, but unfortunately rising.  In 4 days that equals 10 per million, so deaths per million 10 times faster than Italy, and rising.  You can do the math. barring an explosion of infections and deaths here, it won't be long before the US overtakes Italy in this measure as well, even if deaths do not rise further which seems unlikely at this point.  If factors such an older population, overwhelmed healthcare system for a couple months and treatment that has improved over time is taken into account, the situation looks even worse on that side of the Atlantic as far as how effective overall management of the virus crisis goes.  This I believe is the bottom line number to watch.  Sometime in the future we may also be looking at longer term health impact of those that survived.  Although that is another topic in itself, I doubt the US will be better off 'flattening the curve' vs others that cut down the curve quickly.

Do let me know if you find any faults in logic.  I'm capable of learning from my mistakes.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 19, 2020, 01:47:08 PM

Florida has 2.5x more cases than New Jersey but 3x less deaths. NY has 40% more cases than Florida but 600% more deaths than Florida. NY, NJ, and Italy was caught off-guard. Florida and everybody else learned from their mistakes. The most vulnerable are better protected now. Case fatality rate will go way down as long as we protect the most vulnerable.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 19, 2020, 02:31:58 PM
"The most painful state of being is remembering the future, particularly the one you'll never have."

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 19, 2020, 05:17:36 PM

Do let me know if you find any faults in logic.  I'm capable of learning from my mistakes.

I agree deaths is a better measure than positive cases.  IMO an even better measure is "hospitalizations" as I would think the data have been verified by a doctor, there is nil double counting, and delay in reporting is minimal.   

This still has not solved the comparability issue.  BillyB gives a good, terse explanation of why Florida today is an orange, and Italy, NY and NJ were apples.   Italians are more compliant than Americans.

Regardless, I believe we both agree it is paramount to follow closely the surge of new positive cases with concern about hospitalization rates and deaths. 

Even more paramount is to wear masks, maintain distance from others, wash hands, avoid crowds.....all of which are decisions made by individuals.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 20, 2020, 01:15:42 AM
Gator,

compliance of populations is, of course, a factor, but also included in deaths per million assessment.

Plenty of Americans comply with what is requested.  NY is a good example and with positive results.  Obviously the majority of the population in NY complied, along with the state complying with re-opening criteria.  If other states would have followed suit, we wouldn't be faced with near the problem we have today.  I don't agree to 'apples and oranges' arguments.  It is a matter of will and leadership and not something inherently different that cannot be influenced.

I agree hospitalizations are important, but then again there are no comparable standards as to when a patient is admitted or not.  In cases like Italy and NY, I believe a large portion of deaths were due to patients waiting too long to be admitted due to stresses on healthcare assets.  Both have very similar results.  Germany seemed to find that 'sweet spot' AND had the critical care capacity along with preventing infections by having folks not line up and fill ER's, instead being visited first at home by full fledged doctors who determined when and where patients should be admitted.

As for comparative analysis, deaths are about the best we have.  IIRC you were the first to bring up deaths first as the number to be watched along with hospitalization.  I admit being a bit sceptic that deaths were a good measure back then, trying to rationalize the high death rate in Italy with other factors such as age demographics, but I do see today that I was wrong and you were quite correct.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 20, 2020, 04:48:22 AM
I agree hospitalizations are important, but then again there are no comparable standards as to when a patient is admitted or not. 

It is worse than that.  The reason HHS recently took over hospital data reporting is because CDC had limited capacity for timely, accurate reporting (e. g., some hospitals were literally faxing reports to CDC; the Administration wanted data on hospitalizations sorted by age and region, and CDC said it would take a month or more).   

To CDC's credit, for many years they have asked for funding of a new system, but went ignored.  Likewise, our intelligence community has for years warned that pandemics should be treated as a national risk on par with terrorism.  Our Federal agencies in many ways were not prepared for a pandemic.     Oddly, before COVID the US was ranked as best prepared, followed by UK. 


Quote
In cases like Italy and NY, I believe a large portion of deaths were due to patients waiting too long to be admitted due to stresses on healthcare assets.  Both have very similar results.


In March-April we thought NYC would be the next Italy.  The Feds quickly expanded hospital capacity, only to go unused, partly because Cuomo ordered nursing home cases of COVID to be returned to their nursing homes. And....     


Quote
Germany seemed to find that 'sweet spot' AND had the critical care capacity along with preventing infections by having folks not line up and fill ER's, instead being visited first at home by full fledged doctors who determined when and where patients should be admitted.

House calls!  I remember in my early youth a doctor coming to our home to diagnose my mother and give her medicine.   That was a long time ago.  The Germany approach seems a less efficient use of limited numbers of doctors, yet the results were superior. 


Quote
As for comparative analysis, deaths are about the best we have.  IIRC you were the first to bring up deaths first as the number to be watched along with hospitalization.  I admit being a bit sceptic that deaths were a good measure back then, trying to rationalize the high death rate in Italy with other factors such as age demographics, but I do see today that I was wrong and you were quite correct surprised.

As were us all on most aspects of this pandemic, including  the renown Dr. Fauci.  It caught the world flat-footed.     We still have much to learn. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 20, 2020, 05:15:14 AM
Interview with Dr. Scott Gottlieb

Quote
Six months into the pandemic, we still don’t have enough supplies, equipment or lab services.

Almost half of our testing is done at hospitals and point-of-care facilities, with quick turnaround of results.  Major commercial labs account for 50%, and reporting of results is taking as much as seven days, if not longer.  This raises questions about whether tested patients in the interim are heeding isolation recommendations. 

The major commercial labs need to scale up, yet are unwilling to make the huge investment because COVID testing will become unnecessary within a year if not sooner.    Another limitation is a shortage of lab technicians. 

Quote
Schools can open safely this fall. Staggered schedules and other precautions would help reduce children's low but real risk from Covid.

A study from South Korea cautions that children older than 10 yo are just as infectious as young adults.  The study was limited, yet suggests we could at least open elementary schools, something vitally needed to free the parents to work.

Quote
Tomorrow. Vaccines. Just saying.

Tweet yesterday by editor of Lancet about reporting the Phase 1 &2 trials for AstraZeneca-Oxford vaccine.   

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 20, 2020, 05:28:39 AM
Another tidbit - many are questioning whether the US has the manufacturing capacity to provide quickly the hundreds of millions of doses of vaccines passing their Phase 3 trials.   The US pharma companies have moved their manufacturing mostly off-shore.  Because of this limitation,  Trump's warp speed program is funding manufacturing of promising vaccines while undergoing Phase 3 trials.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 20, 2020, 05:33:53 AM
It is worse than that.  The reason HHS recently took over hospital data reporting is because CDC had limited capacity for timely, accurate reporting (e. g., some hospitals were literally faxing reports to CDC; the Administration wanted data on hospitalizations sorted by age and region, and CDC said it would take a month or more).

Indeed, quick and accurate reporting is one of those very basic necessities.  If that is the result of sending data to HHS then fine. 

Quote
To CDC's credit, for many years they have asked for funding of a new system, but went ignored.  Likewise, our intelligence community has for years warned that pandemics should be treated as a national risk on par with terrorism.  Our Federal agencies in many ways were not prepared for a pandemic.     Oddly, before COVID the US was ranked as best prepared, followed by UK. 

The world wasn't ready for this very few countries are prepared for such, i.e. Germany who plans and has regular exercises for all types of major events.

Quote
In March-April we thought NYC would be the next Italy.  The Feds quickly expanded hospital capacity, only to go unused, partly because Cuomo ordered nursing home cases of COVID to be returned to their nursing homes. And.... 
   

In many ways, NY was our Italy.. very similar on many levels.  Field hospitals were opened here also and went unused or were dropped when they started to get a grasp on the situation and stabilize.  I was very surprised at the number of ventilators Cuomo ordered based on experience here where the numbers kept growing steadily but IIRC maxed out at around 2500 or so before starting to drop.  Had the number of infections not have dropped, I expect double would have been needed.

Quote
House calls!  I remember in my early youth a doctor coming to our home to diagnose my mother and give her medicine.   That was a long time ago.  The Germany approach seems a less efficient use of limited numbers of doctors, yet the results were superior.

Housecalls are very common here in Europe.  Our town of around 15000 inhabitants has 10 or 12 GP's that will make housecalls if necessary such as folks vomiting, high fevers and other stuff one doesn't want to have others in waiting rooms infected. The health system pays the GP's their salary and folks can pick the one they like to go to. They rotate with on-call night/holiday coverage.  IOW we can go or call in a doc 24/7/365.  If necessary even IV's are done at home, there are a couple of trained folks that do this if the doc orders.  If a shot or something is needed, pick it up at the pharmacy and give wifey target practice if she's comfortable. Everyone has syringes in their med cabinet at home and most grocery stores carry them. 

Quote
As were us all on most aspects of this pandemic, including the renown Dr Fauci.  It caught the world flat-footed.     We still have much to learn.

Fauci is a scientist that understands when new information is available a hypothesis will be revised.  Science is not static.  I heard him get beaten up about masks, but also remember much of the intent early on was to conserve masks for those on the front lines.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 20, 2020, 06:13:04 AM
Because of this limitation,  Trump's warp speed program is funding manufacturing of promising vaccines while undergoing Phase 3 trials.

As is being done here and in Germany, other places as well.  Interesting that production and packaging of the AZ/ Oxford vaccine is underway 300 miles from here so look for a 'Made in Italy' stamp on your vial :)  EU spent a billion bucks as well on the Oxford vaccine production alone.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on July 20, 2020, 06:22:27 AM
Florida has 2.5x more cases than New Jersey but 3x less deaths. NY has 40% more cases than Florida but 600% more deaths than Florida. NY, NJ, and Italy was caught off-guard. Florida and everybody else learned from their mistakes. The most vulnerable are better protected now. Case fatality rate will go way down as long as we protect the most vulnerable.
Currently, I'm not seeing enough death to warrant full shut downs.  Perhaps the shutdowns have kept the death rate low.   Had the situation been the same as it was in NY or Italy then I could see good reason to shut down.  At least for the moment the states are suffering hundreds of deaths per day which isn't good but not enough to close down. 

My own thought is we lost the ability to control the spread of the virus long ago, and I don't see the US populace ever showing the discipline to take the measures that would be necessary to contain it like other countries appear to have.  So if that is the case, lets just get back to living.  Unfortunately the most vulnerable will have to really change their lives to avoid this illness. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 20, 2020, 06:33:29 AM
Currently, I'm not seeing enough death to warrant full shut downs.  Perhaps the shutdowns have kept the death rate low.   Had the situation been the same as it was in NY or Italy then I could see good reason to shut down.  At least for the moment the states are suffering hundreds of deaths per day which isn't good but not enough to close down. 


Problem is FT, you only know it is 'happening' when it hits you in the face. 'Currently' is pretty much a useless term in this context, already a month or more behind the curve.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 20, 2020, 07:16:44 AM
As is being done here and in Germany, other places as well.  Interesting that production and packaging of the AZ/ Oxford vaccine is underway 300 miles from here so look for a 'Made in Italy' stamp on your vial :)  EU spent a billion bucks as well on the Oxford vaccine production alone.

And the Phase 1-2 trial, released in the past hour shows much promise in producing antibodies. 

In simple terms from BBC:

Quote
  Scientists did this by transferring the genetic instructions for the coronavirus's "spike protein" - the crucial tool it uses to invade our cells - to the vaccine they were developing.

This means the vaccine resembles the coronavirus and the immune system can learn how to attack it.

Oxford developed the vaccine from a "genetically engineered virus that causes the common cold in chimpanzees."  China is developing a vaccine very similar to the Oxford vaccine with one huge difference - instead of using a virus that attacks chimps, Chinese selected a virus that attacks humans.  It is felt that the China approach of starting with human viruses approach increases the probability of success. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 20, 2020, 07:44:42 AM
Fauci is a scientist that understands when new information is available a hypothesis will be revised.  Science is not static.  I heard him get beaten up about masks, but also remember much of the intent early on was to conserve masks for those on the front lines.


Fauci, other medical experts, and governments around the world had to lie to save the masks for medical personnel otherwise we'd have what we had with toilet paper. It's amazing how many will believe a lie by educated people and governments when common sense should tell them masks are worn by healthy medical workers for protection so masks will work for everybody. There are still some people today believing masks are useless based on the education they got a few months ago. They believe the current about face on masks is the lie.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 20, 2020, 07:59:33 AM
Gator,

yes, promising.  Now we only need to know if it works.

I can imagine some places like China might put aside some of the ethical aspects and do a 'trial by fire' intentionally infecting folks to test their vaccine ISO vaccinating many thousands and waiting to see if any get infected over time in areas where the virus is abundant.  Much of Europe wouldn't work well because too few are infected nowadays, but the US would make for good proving grounds.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 20, 2020, 08:12:28 AM
There are still some people today believing masks are useless based on the education they got a few months ago. They believe the current about face on masks is the lie.

(http://inteng-storage.s3.amazonaws.com/img/iea/QjOdA53QGd/sizes/mask-no-masked_resize_md.jpeg)

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ebd83QwX0AI1mi_?format=jpg&name=small)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 20, 2020, 12:32:36 PM
Sorry,

Surely no-one is using bacterial transmission in comparison with viral ones  ?


"Bacteria are giants when compared to viruses. The smallest bacteria are about 0.4 micron (one millionth of a meter) in diameter while viruses range in size from 0.02 to 0.25 micron. This makes most viruses submicroscopic, unable to be seen in an ordinary light microscope."

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 20, 2020, 12:47:17 PM
How many viruses are piggybacking on the surface of bacteria and in droplets carrying them Moby?  A gazillion, maybe two?

Yepper, I'm a believer in using masks.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 20, 2020, 02:55:08 PM
more on the Russian vaccine
http://www.foxnews.com/world/russias-elite-experimental-vaccine-months-report

oh yeah, they do bio war research there using cancer causing viruses as agents!
you don't believe me?

read for yourself

http://www.istc.int/en/project/EF4231F327C2E0CBC32570CF003340E3

half the stuff going on in this lab is biowar, and this is all public
imagine the part that isn't!

biopreparat

are the same people who:

In 1947 the Soviet Union established a smallpox weapons factory in the city of Zagorsk, 75 km to the northeast of Moscow. An outbreak of weaponized smallpox occurred during testing at a facility on an island in the Aral Sea in 1971. General Burgasov, former Chief Sanitary Physician of the Soviet Army and a senior researcher within the Soviet program of biological weapons, described the incident:

    On Vozrozhdeniya Island in the Aral Sea, the strongest recipes of smallpox were tested. Suddenly I was informed that there were mysterious cases of mortalities in Aralsk. A research ship of the Aral fleet came to within 15 km of the island (it was forbidden to come any closer than 40 km). The lab technician of this ship took samples of plankton twice a day from the top deck. The smallpox formulation – 400 gr. of which was exploded on the island – "got her" and she became infected. After returning home to Aralsk, she infected several people including children. All of them died. I suspected the reason for this and called the Chief of General Staff of Ministry of Defense and requested to forbid the stop of the Alma-Ata–Moscow train in Aralsk. As a result, the epidemic around the country was prevented. I called Andropov, who at that time was Chief of KGB, and informed him of the exclusive recipe of smallpox obtained on Vozrazhdenie Island

so what happened?
they were testing a 1 pound powdered smallpox bomb with an explosive burst charge and sampling how the virus spread
there weren't supposed to be any human beings within 50 miles of the test site, virus needs a host to spread...
but some of the virus reached a boat that suddenly appeared over the horizon and infected a crew member standing on the deck
from a single 1 pound virus bomb created with 50 year old technology
the cloud spread 7.5 miles....

THESE PEOPLE!!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 20, 2020, 05:41:42 PM
Surely no-one is using bacterial transmission in comparison with viral ones  ?



Acknowledged in the text for all but you to see.  The mucous-saliva respiratory droplet transporting bacteria can just as easily transport viruses.    If you don't believe me, google multiphase fluid dynamics. 


The text also mentions aerosols (smaller than droplets) produced when coughing, etc.  Most are sufficiently large to carry viruses and they can travel farther than droplets.         
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: calmissile on July 20, 2020, 11:00:56 PM


Acknowledged in the text for all but you to see.  The mucous-saliva respiratory droplet transporting bacteria can just as easily transport viruses.    If you don't believe me, google multiphase fluid dynamics. 


The text also mentions aerosols (smaller than droplets) produced when coughing, etc.  Most are sufficiently large to carry viruses and they can travel farther than droplets.       

Please don't use any common sense here.  I don't think it is allowed.  :)
Before accepting your comments we should demand an independent controlled study and make sure all the scientific geniuses agree.

What is the big deal about requiring people to wear a face covering (in public) until the epidemic is under control?  I just don't get it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on July 20, 2020, 11:08:50 PM
Fauci, other medical experts, and governments around the world had to lie to save the masks for medical personnel otherwise we'd have what we had with toilet paper. It's amazing how many will believe a lie by educated people and governments when common sense should tell them masks are worn by healthy medical workers for protection so masks will work for everybody. There are still some people today believing masks are useless based on the education they got a few months ago. They believe the current about face on masks is the lie.

BC said “Fauci is a scientist”.

 :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

He’s a big Pharma con-Artist pushing death cult propaganda and the sheep love it.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 21, 2020, 02:55:23 AM
What is the big deal about requiring people to wear a face covering (in public) until the epidemic is under control?  I just don't get it.

Masking has sadly been turned into a political statement instead of a way to show others you care about them.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 21, 2020, 03:13:01 AM
BC said “Fauci is a scientist”.

 :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:

He’s a big Pharma con-Artist pushing death cult propaganda and the sheep love it.

Have anything constructive to add?  And tell me, what do sheep have to do with it?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on July 21, 2020, 06:20:48 AM
Problem is FT, you only know it is 'happening' when it hits you in the face. 'Currently' is pretty much a useless term in this context, already a month or more behind the curve.
I don't suspect we will see much over 1000 deaths a day or less.  While a shame, I don't see that as enough to close everything down.  My guess is that it won't get that much worse than it already is.  I think that Americans are going to accept this as a new normal and are going to want to live normally with this new added risk.  If the numbers start increasing, then I could once again change my stance, but as you stated, by then it would be too late.    I just don't see a workable alternative with the attitudes of the US population.  There are 4 old guys I work with or around closely age range is 70-84 years old and only one of the four wears a mask sometimes, all the rest NEVER wear a mask unless forced to in a supermarket or something like that. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 21, 2020, 08:06:44 AM
confederate,

there are only 3 reasons why you don’t have at least one female quarantine partner right now...

1. you’re POOR! - to women, poor is the same as lazy, and women hate lazy men
2. you’re UGLY! - nobody likes ugly people, not even YOU!
3. you’re DUMB! - cuz even poor, ugly guys can figure out how to get laid if they’re smart

being poor, ugly and dumb has not ONLY made you involuntarily celibate
it has also turned you into a bitter man who developed paranoid delusional thinking to compensate for your LOW position and lack of succeess in life ....

so on top of being poor, ugly, and dumb, you’re also a “wack job”
so forget about the girl friend, ok?
nature just plain did NOT intend for you to reproduce
that should be obvious to you by now, OK?

meanwhile, save your delusions or mix them up with UFOs to make them sound more interesting to the rest of us who DO NOT share your affliction and corresponding delusional outlook!
for example, "did you hear what Dr Fauci said about "alien abductions"?
YOU DIDN'T?
that's because THEY didn't want you to hear!
see...

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 21, 2020, 08:15:45 AM
I don't suspect we will see much over 1000 deaths a day or less.  While a shame, I don't see that as enough to close everything down.  My guess is that it won't get that much worse than it already is.  I think that Americans are going to accept this as a new normal and are going to want to live normally with this new added risk.  If the numbers start increasing, then I could once again change my stance, but as you stated, by then it would be too late.    I just don't see a workable alternative with the attitudes of the US population.  There are 4 old guys I work with or around closely age range is 70-84 years old and only one of the four wears a mask sometimes, all the rest NEVER wear a mask unless forced to in a supermarket or something like that. 

Fathertime!

A bit of perspective (http://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/death-rate), prior to this current pandemic, the US death rate was hovering at a clip of 2.8 million +/- per year...that's more or less mid-7000/day. So far halfway through 2020, because of COVID-19, we've surpassed last year's total.

For the past 20-30 years, we fluctuated anywhere from 8.5 to 8.9/1000 deaths yearly. Prior decades to this, especially in the '70s, we nearly averaged in high 9s/1000. It'll be interesting to see why that is, but that's for another time, I suppose.

So the added deaths due to, or of COVID-19 - if it remained on a steady level to the end of the year, will our country see the same rate as it did in the '60s and all of the '70s.

What I'm saying is - we've been here before.

btw, if you peeked at the left column, there are 26 nations above us who have a higher death rate so far this year. This year we are at 8.9- per 1,000.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on July 21, 2020, 08:28:27 AM
Have anything constructive to add?  And tell me, what do sheep have to do with it?

You’re not capable of deciphering propaganda however other more astute readers of this site are, therefore for their benefit.

 “He had dismissed the President’s efforts to promote a known malaria medication as treatment for severe corona patients as “anecdotal,” even though seven years before he backed the same drug. He has publicly taken projections from an institute created in Washington State by the Gates Foundation, the same foundation that virtually owns the WHO and owns major stakes in the leading vaccine makers, to claim that up to 200,000 Americans could die from COVID19. Fauci stated that COVID19 is “probably about 10 times more lethal than the seasonal flu,” which would mean 300-600,000 coronavirus deaths this year, at the same time in a respected medical journal he compared Covid-19 as similar to seasonal flu in morbidity


http://fort-russ.com/amp/2020/04/shedding-light-on-the-dishonorable-record-of-dr-fauci-a-real-mengele/

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 21, 2020, 08:50:09 AM
it's the economy, stupid
or
the stupid economy for the stupid

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 21, 2020, 09:11:44 AM
It is telling to be told, " you are not capable of discerning propaganda", by a poster who believes the word of David Icke, who claims many leading politicians and business movers and shakers are reptiles.....

The same chap was busy paying members that another member had hacked forums))))..

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 21, 2020, 12:15:48 PM
seriously....

it's hard for you guys to meet women?

all I gotta do is place an ad on Houston's Craig's List

"Free Room and Board on Small Farm in the Country in Exchange for Light House Cleaning"

First, ONLY women will respond...
second, it only takes a minute to weed out the middle aged, old, ugly
until you're left with a short list of under 30 yr olds...

so with your short list, which actually might consist of dozens of names
how do you shrink it down to a list of "keepers" for house keeper?

you contact them and invite them over to your pool
tell them they MUST bring a bathing suit

then while the two of you are talking
your wife comes out to the pool topless and goes into the pool
inviting the interviewee...

if she at least takes her own top off, then she's a candidate, otherwise not...

that simple...

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 21, 2020, 01:00:12 PM
therefore for their benefit.

indeed.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 21, 2020, 05:40:25 PM
Trump gave a very interesting COVID press briefing today.  It was his first since April.  And he did it without anyone from his staff present.  He was brief (maybe 20 minutes) and factual. 

He is owning the pandemic, and says the pandemic will get worse before getting better. 

Today he summarized all the progress being made in treatment protocols such that hospitalizations  are shorter with fewer deaths.  He claimed the States have everything the Federal government can provide.  Trump proudly talked about the remarkably fast progress in developing multiple vaccines. 

Trump answered some questions, most of which were about the election. 

If you were watching CNN, you would have missed it because CNN elected not to cover Trump's briefing.  Supposedly CNN did cut in for Q & A (of course).

Does anyone find it odd that the one network that covers the pandemic day and night, quite possibly more intensely than any other network, decided not to cover what the President had to say? 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on July 21, 2020, 05:48:49 PM
Trump gave a very interesting COVID press briefing today.  It was his first since April.  And he did it without anyone from his staff present.  He was brief (maybe 20 minutes) and factual. 

He is owning the pandemic, and says the pandemic will get worse before getting better. 

Today he summarized all the progress being made in treatment protocols such that hospitalizations  are shorter with fewer deaths.  He claimed the States have everything the Federal government can provide.  Trump proudly talked about the remarkably fast progress in developing multiple vaccines. 

Trump answered some questions, most of which were about the election. 

If you were watching CNN, you would have missed it because CNN elected not to cover Trump's briefing.  Supposedly CNN did cut in for Q & A (of course).

Does anyone find it odd that the one network that covers the pandemic day and night, quite possibly more intensely than any other network, decided not to cover what the President had to say?

It's becoming increasingly rare that much of the MSM will cover President Trump live. The reason for this is so their talking heads have time to parse his words and set up for their daily pounding of his every syllable. Forget the message, attack the man. The MSM coverage of Trump is so blatantly biased it is almost comical. It's no wonder he tweets constantly
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 21, 2020, 06:04:21 PM
If you were watching CNN, you would have missed it because CNN elected not to cover Trump's briefing.  Supposedly CNN did cut in for Q & A (of course).



It's becoming increasingly rare that much of the MSM will cover President Trump live.


Certain media outlets prefer to translate English to English for their viewers. Trump will say something and they will tell their viewers what Trump actually said as they interpret it.


Trump should be getting a lot of credit for action taken when he funded billions to labs around the world and secured vaccines for Americans. He secured 300 million doses alone from AstraZeneca. Of course anti Trump media wants everyone to believe he's not taking this crisis seriously.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 21, 2020, 06:23:59 PM
Does anyone find it odd that the one network that covers the pandemic day and night, quite possibly more intensely than any other network, decided not to cover what the President had to say?

Was that really a serious question or are you just kidding Gator?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 21, 2020, 06:41:02 PM
"Rump gave a very interesting COVID press briefing today.  It was his first since April.  And he did it without anyone from his staff present.  He was brief (maybe 20 minutes) and factual."

 

During his speech 20 Americans died from COVID-19, 99% would still be alive if they lived in any other country on the planet other than the one ruled over by President Rump!





"He is owning the pandemic, and says the pandemic will get worse before getting better. "


ACTUALLY...
the pandemic is now CLEARLY owning him, cuz it was all a hoax a couple of months ago, remember?
but the virus is WAY, WAY smarter than him, despite Rump being able to tell the difference between an elephant and a giraffe on the cognitive test, the virus will beat him like a drum!

but Rump voters, all they gotta do is hear a few words mumbled about disinfectant from Dear Leader and they gotta go and jerk off over it
a bunch of disgusting closeted Republicans who troll the men's rooms asking other stalls for toilette paper while calling openly gay men "faggots"
that's who Rump voters REALLY are....


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 21, 2020, 07:28:51 PM

the pandemic is now CLEARLY owning him, cuz it was all a hoax a couple of months ago, remember?

You claim Trump called the pandemic a hoax a couple of months ago?  So you are saying the President who declared a China traveler ban in late January and not much later a European traveler ban,  and then an economic shutdown, would declare in May it was all a hoax? 

Grow up!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 21, 2020, 07:41:37 PM
"So you are saying the President who declared a China traveler ban in late January"

Rump only declared a travel ban AFTER the major American airlines did so on their own FIRST...
then Trump did what they already did
OK?
he did NOTHING!
look at the numbers dead, infected, compare to ANY other country on Earth
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 21, 2020, 08:31:54 PM

I got at least two vaccines brewing in my back yard. University of Washington, which has one of the best medical programs in the country, has positive results with vaccine that created strong immune response in mice and monkeys. Also, the experimental vaccine induced a strong immune response after a single dose and immunity increased over time. The Kaiser Permanente Washington Research Institute in Seattle last week announced a two-dose experimental coronavirus vaccine it’s studying provided an immune boost in humans. A 30,000-person study is expected to start by the end of July.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/uw-medicines-experimental-coronavirus-vaccine-shows-promising-results/ar-BB170DYU


We need to give it up for our man, Kim Jong Un. He may end up being the guy that saves the World. North Korea is creating a vaccine and is close to entering phase 3 trials. No international body observed phase 1 and 2 and nobody will observe phase 3 but if they say they got a safe and effective vaccine, trust North Korea for once and take the shot, okay?

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/why-north-korea-says-its-joining-the-coronavirus-vaccine-race-even-though-it-has-no-cases/ar-BB16XfMW?ocid=U218DHP


This party isn't complete without Iran. Iran has homegrown COVID-19 happening at ballistic missile speed. Ready to test on humans.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-06-30/iran-says-to-start-human-trials-of-covid-19-vaccine-soon


Ethiopia wants in on the action. They've announce great success with their vaccine. The question I have is "Who isn't developing a vaccine?" I have a feeling next year billions of people will be injected with crap that doesn't work.

http://www.theeastafrican.co.ke/tea/science-health/covid-19-ethiopian-drug-ready-for-clinical-trials-1439584


This webpage has a world map of where vaccines are being developed. They have discriminated against North Korea, Iran and Ethiopia

http://www.gavi.org/vaccineswork/covid-19-vaccine-race
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 21, 2020, 08:37:33 PM

Rump only declared a travel ban AFTER the major American airlines did so on their own FIRST...
then Trump did what they already did
OK?
he did NOTHING!


In January Biden criticized the China traveler travel ban, calling Trump a xenophobe.   At the time Fauci thought it unnecessary. 

But in your earlier post you claimed Trump called the pandemic a hoax.  He did say it would go away; he never said it was a hoax.  Some right wing extremists called it a hoax.   Trump called the Russian collusion accusation a hoax. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 21, 2020, 08:57:12 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5TZ6fTYrsE

"...Their New Hoax?..."
I guess it’s why he did nothing and the USA is on its way to 200,000 DEAD!
so tell me again who's winning?
the orange clown in the video, or the little virus
who is kicking whose ASS?

BTW, did you know that per capita, the USA's Corona infection rate is 100 times S Korea's
not 10 times
100 times!!!
because they did things a lot more right compared to what the orange clown in the video did
that's why over 140,000 of your countrymen are dead and growing at over 1,000 a day...
because of how freakin great HE IS NOT!
DO YOU REALLY THINK PEOPLE OWE YOU A DEBT OF GRATITUDE FOR VOTING FOR HIM AND DESTROYING THIS COUNTRY?
YOU DO??
Horrorsho!
SPOSSIBA BOLSHOI Americaski pridorki, durrichki!!!  Spossiba Bolshoi!
you just played yourselves and destroyed your own country!!!
you have about a year left before it all collapses.....
all of it
EVERYTHING!
Thank you each and every Trump Voter for your role in making this happen!!

HA, HA
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 22, 2020, 12:54:10 AM

If you were watching CNN, you would have missed it because CNN elected not to cover Trump's briefing.  Supposedly CNN did cut in for Q & A (of course).

Does anyone find it odd that the one network that covers the pandemic day and night, quite possibly more intensely than any other network, decided not to cover what the President had to say?

I was watching, heard the announcement that he would soon be speaking and think caught most of it, but honestly, can't recall if every word was broadcast as I was a bit distracted and it was very early morning here.  Of course, there was a full analysis afterwards with additional clips. I watched the full briefing this morning.  Yes, was his summation of 'facts', a few charts and positive remarks about the economy, we've done much better than other countries, vaccine and therapeutics on the way, docs are doing great, we have all the equipment and PPE we need,our testing is the greatest, it will go away but get worse before it gets better, states are doing well except a few, governors are happy with him, it's all China's fault and a bit of 'it is what it is'.  The notable items I caught was his new position on masks it which is surely a step forward if his base follows this lead, and what I thought was the acceptance of responsibility for His great actions that saved millions of lives, hey it's something! :)

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 22, 2020, 06:17:41 AM

I guess it’s why he did nothing...

Nothing?  Why bother listing what Trump has done.  You would ignore it.  BTW, at what point in the video does Trump call the virus a hoax. 

Unlike you in my deliberations I endeavor to consider different perspectives.  Thus, I admit Trump could have done more, yet most of the infections still would have resulted from individuals deciding not to follow obviously beneficial guidelines.  I voted for Trump and I followed the guidelines. 

I still agree with the overall strategy of keeping the economy open and learning to live with the virus.  Unlike you, most of us can not accept living on freeze dried food.  The jury is still out about final results. 

The pandemic deserved our full attention, yet I don't believe it helpful that the Democrats and the media have politicalized the pandemic as part of the petulant obstruction of Trump.  That has not helped the nation.  And that was Trump's point in the video. 
 

Quote
you just played yourselves and destroyed your own country!!!
you have about a year left before it all collapses.....
all of it
EVERYTHING!

By deciding to divest yourself of everything America, I will give you credit for putting your money where your mouth is   You are not like the celebrities who said in November 2016 they would move to Canada.   

Question:  when selling your Houston home, do the real estate agents advise you to remove your tree fort and punji pit? 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 22, 2020, 07:51:33 AM
"when selling your Houston home, do the real estate agents advise you to remove your tree fort and punji pit?  "

no, they tell me to raise the price by 20K for the extra features, these are very much in demand here now
everyone will have to have these
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on July 24, 2020, 05:55:47 AM
Last few months is when NY and surrounding States were on fire. But the current trend is going downward and we are now below the threshold for what should be a normal amount of deaths.
I decided to save your chart.   It has been updating as it states it would.  Your statement above is no longer correct.  The number reported deaths is above the baseline.     It is trending below the all time peak when the pandemic was killing 2000 a day though as it ripped through NY.  Nevertheless, the death rate in the US is above it's average.   Not by all that much though, and if were to stay at this rate, I wouldn't consider it urgent, or panic time. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on July 24, 2020, 05:56:59 AM
A bit of perspective (http://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/death-rate), prior to this current pandemic, the US death rate was hovering at a clip of 2.8 million +/- per year...that's more or less mid-7000/day. So far halfway through 2020, because of COVID-19, we've surpassed last year's total.

For the past 20-30 years, we fluctuated anywhere from 8.5 to 8.9/1000 deaths yearly. Prior decades to this, especially in the '70s, we nearly averaged in high 9s/1000. It'll be interesting to see why that is, but that's for another time, I suppose.

So the added deaths due to, or of COVID-19 - if it remained on a steady level to the end of the year, will our country see the same rate as it did in the '60s and all of the '70s.

What I'm saying is - we've been here before.

btw, if you peeked at the left column, there are 26 nations above us who have a higher death rate so far this year. This year we are at 8.9- per 1,000.
Interesting numbers thanks for providing them.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 24, 2020, 10:49:27 AM
I decided to save your chart.   It has been updating as it states it would.  Your statement above is no longer correct.  The number reported deaths is above the baseline.     It is trending below the all time peak when the pandemic was killing 2000 a day though as it ripped through NY.  Nevertheless, the death rate in the US is above it's average.   Not by all that much though, and if were to stay at this rate, I wouldn't consider it urgent, or panic time. 

Fathertime!

Yes, it's going back up. Covid-19 deaths are up and deaths from other activities will go back up since the stay at home order has been lifted. I agree with you it's still no reason to panic like months ago when the North Eastern States were on fire with COVID-19
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 24, 2020, 11:20:59 AM
Dr. Fauci's ceremonial first pitch at the Nationals' game last night is as accurate as his COVID-19 predictions in January..


http://youtu.be/EYVB9IbSmxY
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 24, 2020, 11:50:16 AM
Dr. Fauci's ceremonial first pitch at the Nationals' game last night is as accurate as his COVID-19 predictions in January..


Clearly he did not want anyone to catch anything.   ;D

I notice he was well left of center.    ;D

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 24, 2020, 01:08:07 PM
:devil:

He really flattened that curve, didn't he?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 24, 2020, 02:59:25 PM
http://www.fool.com/investing/2020/07/24/tiny-arbutus-biopharma-wins-patent-litigation-figh.aspx

Interesting twists and turns.. as if it wasn't already complicated.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on July 24, 2020, 08:04:47 PM
Article on some of the vaccines being tested.

http://arstechnica.com/science/2020/07/meet-the-4-frontrunners-in-the-covid-19-vaccine-race/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 25, 2020, 05:09:27 PM
A few good websites that track and talk about vaccines and therapies. Chinese labs seem to take the easy route in making vaccines by killing the live/active virus and injecting the dead/inactive virus into people. It's easy to make a safe vaccine with this technique but this technique isn't always successful.

http://www.bio.org/policy/human-health/vaccines-biodefense/coronavirus/pipeline-tracker

http://covid-19tracker.milkeninstitute.org/#vaccines_intro

One link said 199 vaccines are in development. Here are a few types and you can find which lab is developing which type in the second link.

DNA-Based Asian and European labs doing this

DNA-based vaccines work by inserting a genetically engineered blueprint of viral gene(s) into small DNA molecules (called plasmids) for injection into vaccinated people.Cells take in the DNA plasmids and follow their instructions to build viral proteins, which the immune system recognizes as foreign, triggering the immune response that protects against the disease.

Inactivated Virus Chinese labs doing this

This type of vaccine consists of the disease-causing virus that has been killed (with heat or chemicals), so it won’t make you sick, and can be used in people that may not be able to use a live attenuated virus vaccine (e.g., those who are immunocompromised). In general, inactivated virus vaccines do not provide as strong of an immune response as live attenuated virus vaccines, so additional doses of the vaccine may be needed to get a strong enough immune response. Still, they may be safer for some people.

Live Attenuated Virus
Popular with labs in India

In contrast to inactivated virus vaccines, these vaccines, also whole viruses, are live to elicit a stronger immune response but weakened to reduce virulence. Examples include those for measles, mumps, and tuberculosis.

Non-Replicating Viral Vector  Oxford University doing this.

This approach is similar to replicating viral vector vaccines in that a viral gene is added to a different, non-replicating, virus and delivered to the vaccine recipient. No approved product of this kind has resulted to date.

Protein Subunit  various labs around the world taking this route

Rather than introducing whole viruses to an immune system, a fragment of the virus is used to trigger an immune response and stimulate immunity. Examples include the subunit vaccines against hepatitis B and shingles. Examples include the subunit vaccines against Hepatitis B and shingles.

Replicating Viral Vector various labs around the world taking this route

This involves putting a gene for a viral protein into a different virus (one that will not cause illness but can replicate). Replication of the viral vector also produces copies of the viral protein, which triggers an immune response to that protein. Examples include ebola and dengue vaccines.

RNA-Based Vaccine Pfizer and Moderna doing this. Not only has there never been a safe and effective vaccine created for any coronavirus, there has never been an RNA-Based vaccine approved for use against any virus.

Similar to DNA vaccines, these experimental vaccines provide immunity through introduction of genetic material (RNA). RNA vaccines can also be potentially developed more quickly and easily than other vaccines. No RNA vaccines have been approved for human use.

Virus-Like Particle various labs around the world taking this route

Virus-like particle (VLP) vaccines closely resemble viruses but are non-infectious because they contain no viral genetic material. Since VLPs cannot replicate, they provide a safer alternative to attenuated viruses. Examples include the HPV vaccine.

Other various labs around the world taking this route

From a gene-encoded antibody vaccine to a self-assembling vaccine and more, these are the vaccines being developed that do not fall easily into one of the other product categories or details about its category are not publicly available.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 25, 2020, 10:56:42 PM
It is interesting to note the clear policy to make the advisor culpable, when the chap he was advising wouldn't listen..

Reading on here, it seems plenty of sheeple are falling for it..

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jul/25/sinclair-tv-stations-fauci-plandemic-conspiracy-theory
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 27, 2020, 02:32:41 AM
http://metro.co.uk/2020/07/27/vietnam-evacuates-80000-people-three-test-positive-coronavirus-13042258/

Tourism is a double edged sword
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 27, 2020, 02:55:25 AM
Although more confidence is building that an effective vaccine is being produced, the timelines of trials, production and distribution simply cannot be compressed despite throwing a ton of money at them.  We're talking well into next year before the common folk will be able to be vaccinated.  Certainly, first responders, hospital staff and the most vulnerable will be first in line along with maybe some politicians and the very wealthy.

In the meantime, the virus will not relent and continue to maim and kill us (yes it seems many may be left with some forms of medium to long term disability).

Considering the costs that keep rising, now with another trillion-dollar-plus stimulus, many more jobs that are simply disappearing after a faltering restart of the economy, do folks that were against a full lockdown of the nation for 45 days really still believe that 'saving the economy that is not getting saved' was the best path?

Remember that much economic damage is still to come.. rent moratoriums will end with folks either paying or risk eviction, mortgage moratoriums will also end for those who could get them will run out, many won't be repaid.  Some folks are lining up for the second and maybe third time in unemployment lines.  The fed even tempted to buy stocks now to keep money flowing and markets above water to try and prevent a crash?

With politics also heating up daily on top of Fed policies and buying, money is already shifting to safe havens, not necessarily USD.  EUR is quickly rising against the dollar, already reaching 2018 levels.  Will it go to the 1.40ish levels again?  Sure, one might think this is good for the US and that exports will rise, but who is exporting to capacity nowadays with virus tampering production, and who is really buying nowadays overseas?  Folks do see Europe headed towards recovery while the US falters with many places having to put recovery into in reverse gear.

It really doesn't look good folks with several economic tipping points getting nearer every day.  Who here still sees an upside to letting this virus run riot?  I highly doubt masks alone will do the trick.  Some acclaim 'but... we are free!' I say we're already a slave to this virus.  Some say 'But we're not socialist!'.. think about how much of the business sector the USG finances and 'holds' along with dictating financial policies that affect businesses both ways. 

Oh well, rant for the day over :)

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 27, 2020, 05:01:55 AM
Oh well, rant for the day over :)

Good rant, and informed.  I agree with much of it with some exceptions as follows.


Quote
...do folks that were against a full lockdown of the nation for 45 days really still believe that 'saving the economy that is not getting saved' was the best path?

Yes, because Americans are unruly and would not have adhered to the strict policies. 

Us seniors are reminded of the Federal (Nixon) mandated 55-mph speed limit during the 1970s oil embargo - largely ignored even with the highway patrol enforcing it, and deemed unsafe.     
 

Quote
  Considering the costs that keep rising, now with another trillion-dollar-plus stimulus...

I wish it were only a trillion, the number proposed by the Repubs.   The Dems are proposing three TRILLION - got to piggyback some progressive initiatives.   

BTW, the spending is more relief than stimulus.

   
Quote
Remember that much economic damage is still to come.....EUR is quickly rising against the dollar, already reaching 2018 levels.  Will it go to the 1.40ish levels again?

There is not a large difference in inflation and interest rates between EU and US, so the primary driver of changing currency valuations is debt.  Today's valuations reflect Biden's lead in the polls and the Democrats' obvious intentions to spend. spend, spend.       

 
BC, this is not over.   A year from now we will know the answer.  Of course, no country goes unscathed, yet Europe is less hurt in the third inning.   

____________________________
P. S.  New cases in Florida are plateauing.  Hospitalizations and deaths have increased, but not to the rates experienced by New York and Italy in Spring.      Obese and elderly account for much of the severe cases.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on July 27, 2020, 06:05:43 AM

    I highly doubt masks alone will do the trick.  Some acclaim 'but... we are free!' I say we're already a slave to this virus.  Some say 'But we're not socialist!'..
 
went to huntington beach yesterday, I'd say less than 1/25 people were wearing masks.  little to no social distancing was taking place.  in the USA the virus is going to run it's course because that is what the people are deciding...for better or worse.

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 27, 2020, 09:28:34 AM
went to huntington beach yesterday, I'd say less than 1/25 people were wearing masks.  little to no social distancing was taking place.  in the USA the virus is going to run it's course because that is what the people are deciding...for better or worse.

Fathertime!

Lot's of panicking in SurfCity.USA - Huntington Beach (http://www.surfcityusa.com/coronavirus-updates-in-huntington-beach/).
Population 204,000 (99.5% surfs :P ).
COVID-19 cases 792 ( 0.08%).
Deaths 1 ( 0.00049%)

Note: No silly protesting in HB. The last time they tried to hold a blm march here, they were confronted by a counter march, had a short melee, and all the liberal/snowflake acts of stupidity stopped immediately and never came back.

Orange County Population 3,198,000
COVID-19 Cases 34,343 ( 1.07%)
Death 564 ( 0.0176%)

Republicans hold a 0.7% advantage over Democrats of all registered voters in the entire county. This is largely influenced by the high density lower income population in the city of Santa Ana, which is predominantly Hispanics.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 27, 2020, 03:59:27 PM
BASEBALL AND COVID

Major League baseball opened play this past weekend without fans in the stadiums.  I am a moderate baseball fan,  preferring football, yet it felt good to watch some live professional sports albeit without fans.   

The season this year was shortened from 162 games to 60; however,  the playoffs were expanded.  It should have prompted some interest.  I say "should have" because the season is in jeopardy of being cancelled here at Day 4.

Why cancel?  14 of Miami's 30 players tested positive for COVID.  Miami cancelled tonight's home game, and the Philadelphia team where Miami played over the weekend has cancelled its game to decontaminate the clubhouse.
   
The positive cases will need to quarantine, and Miami must replace them with minor league players lacking the full set of competitive skills.  If other teams suffer similar outbreaks, I don't see how the season can continue. 

This sucks, especially for Dodger and Yankee fans (Boo!  Hiss!) whose teams look impressive and are loaded with talent.  Maybe some Yankees go play for Miami!!!! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 27, 2020, 04:19:00 PM
base-a-ball has been very, very good to me
but nCov, has been very, very bad to many
I have a nCov joke for you!!!
I THINK YOU'LL GET IT!

ahahaha, Trump voters
all gonna drink the JonesTown kool-Aid
We will ALL Die For Trump!!!!

yes...
yes you will....


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 27, 2020, 09:01:47 PM

Yes, because Americans are unruly and would not have adhered to the strict policies. 

'Unruly'.. hmm... makes us sound like kids in a kindergarten classroom.  How about 'I don't give a crap if my neighbour catches it or not, as long as I don't get it all is fine'.  Or 'This virus crap is all a lefty hoax anyway so why bother..' or 'I'm young, it only kills (add something different than what I think I am) old folks, or city folks, or minorities' or any number of other selfish ego-driven excuses that clearly shows our inability to confront a totally apolitical threat as a united nation.  I call it 'Our terminal uniqueness'.  SAD.

Quote
Us seniors are reminded of the Federal (Nixon) mandated 55-mph speed limit during the 1970s oil embargo - largely ignored even with the highway patrol enforcing it, and deemed unsafe.

And I am old enough to remember the seat belt debate.  I can't move, much too restrictive, cuts into my belly, I am a good driver etc.  Same crap as with masks today.

Quote
I wish it were only a trillion, the number proposed by the Repubs.   The Dems are proposing three TRILLION - got to piggyback some progressive initiatives.   

BTW, the spending is more relief than stimulus.

It's is not a two-round fight Gator. What we spent so far will double, triple, maybe even quadruple down the road.  Is our 'terminal uniqueness' really that valuable?  We could be back in business today with few restrictions.  Maybe 1500 infections per day and deaths far less than a hundred per day.  Have to admit Gator, we screwed this up royally and continue to do so.
   
Quote
There is not a large difference in inflation and interest rates between EU and US, so the primary driver of changing currency valuations is debt.  Today's valuations reflect Biden's lead in the polls and the Democrats' obvious intentions to spend. spend, spend.       

Sure, blame Biden, which will cure everything.  You're much smarter than that Gator. 
 
Quote
BC, this is not over.   A year from now we will know the answer. Of course, no country goes unscathed, yet Europe is less hurt in the third inning.
 

We already know the answer and where we are heading. It is in our face right now and long from over.  Think about the July 4th 'hump', school opening, Labor day, election day, Thanksgiving, flu season and Christmas and New Year,  all still ahead of us with no vaccine in sight yet.  It piles up quickly..   Instead of denial, we should be asking ourselves 'Did we do our best?'.  The answer to that question is quite obvious as well as the totally unnecessary damage suffered and that yet to come. 

Quote
____________________________
P. S.  New cases in Florida are plateauing.  Hospitalizations and deaths have increased, but not to the rates experienced by New York and Italy in Spring.      Obese and elderly account for much of the severe cases.

In sum, it will be much worse than in NY and Italy.  Will there be fewer deaths? No.  Will there be less economic damage? No.  Did we learn anything from their mistakes? No.  Yeah, those old fat people, who give a shit about 'em.

Not trying to beat you up Gator, but it is high time we face the reality of this monster we created.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on July 27, 2020, 10:40:16 PM
All of those deceased consumers are contributing little to the economy unless you are a grave digger or have similar employment. Several persons I know said persons in nursing homes don't spend much......I replied that they never priced nursing home care.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 27, 2020, 11:34:47 PM
I would reckon 50 million retirees represent a notable portion of the economy.

They need cars, housing, clothing, food, utilities, vacations, entertainment, healthcare etc just like the rest of us.

Oh yes.. and without them, many golf courses would go out of business.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 28, 2020, 06:10:52 AM
'Unruly'....selfish ego-driven excuses that clearly shows our inability to confront a totally apolitical threat as a united nation.

You give a couple of lefty perspectives of unruliness such as conservatives considering this a hoax.  I know of no conservatives who consider this a hoax.  We wear masks, etc. 

For an example of unruliness, look at Seattle, Portland,... In Florida, the mix of alcohol, young hormones and partying seems to be a key source of spreading. 

King George thought we were unruly.


Quote
And I am old enough to remember the seat belt debate.  I can't move, much too restrictive, cuts into my belly, I am a good driver etc.  Same crap as with masks today.

I thought seat belts were cool.  Wore mine.   Worse today as my trips are short and slow.  Nevertheless, I wear my mask in any closed space  and follow the 2-m rule.    Less keen about gloves, but the germ gestapo (my wife) compels me. 

 
Quote
Sure, blame Biden, which will cure everything.  You're much smarter than that Gator.

Biden will cave to the left.  If I am stupid, I assert I am less stupid than you if you believe a left leaning Democrat administration will not accelerate debt.
   

Quote
We already know the answer ....

If you know the answer, please enlighten me on how to invest for the next five years.  Is the answer sell everything US and buy Chinese stocks?  I don't think so. 


Quote
Yeah, those old fat people, who give a shit about 'em.

Did not say that, and certainly don't harbor such feelings.  I feel for my peers.  :)


Quote
Not trying to beat you up Gator, but it is high time we face the reality of this monster we created.

I thought the "monster" (i. e., the virus) originated in China, who did not do their best.    In hindsight, the world in early January should have closed all of China (borders, travelers, goods, etc.).   I imagine this will happen the next time provided the world enhances its surveillance, to include the WHO. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 28, 2020, 09:19:18 AM
You give a couple of lefty perspectives of unruliness such as conservatives considering this a hoax.  I know of no conservatives who consider this a hoax.  We wear masks, etc.

The virus doesn't care. Hey! I got a great idea! Lets play 'spot the mask' !!  I found one.  How many can you find?  OMG!! Is that you?

(http://i.postimg.cc/C5fvd99J/Screen-Shot-2020-07-28-at-17-07-26.png)

Quote
For an example of unruliness, look at Seattle, Portland,... In Florida, the mix of alcohol, young hormones and partying seems to be a key source of spreading. 

Maybe an enforcement issue, or lack thereof?  I heard some place was issuing hundred buck fines.  Here it is $1,117 at today's exchange rate.  3,500 for violating quarantine and up to 5 years jail time.

Quote
King George thought we were unruly.

I'm sure he did use the polite term :)


Quote
I thought seat belts were cool.  Wore mine.   Worse today as my trips are short and slow.  Nevertheless, I wear my mask in any closed space  and follow the 2-m rule.    Less keen about gloves, but the germ gestapo (my wife) compels me. 

Gloves are out here and likely ends up causing more problems with people reusing them.  Good hand sanitizer (I do a home mix aloe and alcohol) is best.  The commercial stuff is a bit too sticky for me.  Also don't like reusable masks now that surgical masks are generally available in quantity.  If I go out I take one and dump it before driving home.

 
Quote
Biden will cave to the left.  If I am stupid, I assert I am less stupid than you if you believe a left leaning Democrat administration will not accelerate debt.
   
Nothing stupid about it.  Cleaning up disasters after GOP presidencies is becoming expensive.  Bush wars, financial crash and now unnecessary aftermath and recovery from the virus.  Believe Trump will set a new record though as the most expensive one-term president  8)

Quote
If you know the answer, please enlighten me on how to invest for the next five years.  Is the answer sell everything US and buy Chinese stocks?  I don't think so.
 

Cash out, diversify into a couple other currencies for balance and look for future buying opportunities that arise.  Depending on your age, maybe time to cross off a few items on your bucket list.  Send your kids overseas for their language skills and learn how others live, work and play.


Quote
Did not say that, and certainly don't harbor such feelings.  I feel for my peers.  :)

I know... I got 15 lbs to knock off.

Quote
I thought the "monster" (i. e., the virus) originated in China, who did not do their best.    In hindsight, the world in early January should have closed all of China (borders, travelers, goods, etc.).   I imagine this will happen the next time provided the world enhances its surveillance, to include the WHO.

The virus is not the monster.  We are, - morphed into one by our own selfishness.  The reason I'm not traveling to the US this year is not because of the virus, it is because of inconsiderate fellow citizens and residents that don't have my back.  If everyone were as conscientious as you and your family about taking simple precautions we would not be in the dire situation we are today.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 28, 2020, 09:34:27 AM
(http://i.postimg.cc/Y0gd63Ft/Screen-Shot-2020-07-28-at-17-07-26.png)

wow... 2!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 28, 2020, 01:55:14 PM

BC, it's not a conservative thing. Look at the photos in the links below. No social distancing and few masks among liberal protestors in Oklahoma. If you don't point out the major violations on both sides, you'll become a hypocrite. The violations are an American thing, not conservative or liberal. Personally, I wouldn't be around those crowds but Americans gonna do what Americans wanna do.

http://www.cnn.com/2020/06/20/us/nationwide-protests-saturday/index.html

http://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/oklahoma/articles/2020-06-03/nearly-50-arrested-after-protests-in-oklahoma-city-tulsa
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 28, 2020, 02:30:30 PM
Billy,

there are more masks in the 50 or so folks in your pictures than I could find at the Trump rally photo.

But sure many folks all over are not wearing masks or distancing in places they should be doing so.  Do you?

BTW my poke at Gator was in reply to his 'We wear masks' remark, but yeah fair game is ok and no, I don't justify protestors for not taking proper precautions.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on July 28, 2020, 02:39:24 PM
  I know of no conservatives who consider this a hoax.  We wear masks, etc. 

 
Then you know VERY few people that are conservatives.   I know numerous people that are conservatives and many consider the virus a bunch of trumped up BS, designed to trip up trump. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 28, 2020, 02:56:51 PM
BC, it's not a conservative thing. Look at the photos in the links below. No social distancing and few masks among liberal protestors in Oklahoma. If you don't point out the major violations on both sides, you'll become a hypocrite. The violations are an American thing, not conservative or liberal. Personally, I wouldn't be around those crowds but Americans gonna do what Americans wanna do.

I don't think BC is being a hypocrite. He doesn't live here. How would he know? Besides, unlike Italians, many Americans refuse to wear mask until they start getting fined 1,000 Euros like the Italians. LMAO!

 http://www.thelocal.it/20200726/italian-region-imposes-1000-euro-fines-for-not-wearing-masks

Well, OK..Maybe he is a little bit.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 28, 2020, 03:23:16 PM
Billy,

there are more masks in the 50 or so folks in your pictures than I could find at the Trump rally photo.

But sure many folks all over are not wearing masks or distancing in places they should be doing so.  Do you?

BTW my poke at Gator was in reply to his 'We wear masks' remark, but yeah fair game is ok and no, I don't justify protestors for not taking proper precautions.

People got their temperature checked before entering the building for the Trump rally. Hand sanitizer also given to all. While taking temperature is not the best test for COVID-19, something is better than nothing. The protestors don't have anybody checking on them. Bottom line is we all have an idea of the risks and some people feel the risk is acceptable when attending a rally or protest. Politicians certainly aren't trying to change their behavior.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 28, 2020, 03:55:07 PM
Billy,

just google 'portland protests'  It is full of protesters wearing masks.  In fact, just guessing at the very least half of protestors wear them.

Protests are mainly in open venues.  Not an excuse for sure, but at least distancing is possible.

Do you deny that masking, until late has been very much a political statement from the right end of the political spectrum?  Do you deny that our president chided Biden for wearing a mask in the middle of a pandemic that has killed 150,000 or more citizens and now suddenly says it's 'cool'?

Do you think what our leaders do, or don't does not influence how their followers act and react?  Of course it does and we can clearly see the results today at worldometer.com

(http://i.postimg.cc/B618MQVH/Screen-Shot-2020-07-29-at-00-42-22.png)

http://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2020/06/25/republicans-democrats-move-even-further-apart-in-coronavirus-concerns/

FUBAR is where we are at, and yes the finger can be pointed at straight Trump for our piss poor performance.





Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 28, 2020, 04:12:02 PM
MAGA!!! 4 More Years! 4 More Years!!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 28, 2020, 04:16:32 PM
Billy,

just google 'portland protests'  It is full of protesters wearing masks.  In fact, just guessing at the very least half of protestors wear them.


They are also wearing hard hats, bicycle helmets and goggles. Why are they different from the Oklahoma protestors? Because Portland protestors are violent and they need protection, not from COVID-19 but from the tear gas canisters thrown at them, protection from breathing the pepper spray, and to cushion the blow of the rubber bullets. You also notice the authorities in Portland wear masks, goggles and helmets compared to the authorities in Oklahoma.

Your Pew Research chart doesn't tell the whole story. Most conservatives live in small town USA where there is not problem with COVID-19 while most of the liberals live in high density cities where they get it worse and the fear the virus more. If COVID-19 hit small towns hard like it did NYC and left big cities alone, your chart would be flip flopped.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 29, 2020, 07:00:28 AM
The virus is not the monster.  We are, - morphed into one by our own selfishness. 


Bull crap!  Election rhetoric - all part of a widespread political and media campaign to frighten voters.   

Individual choices largely determine whether one becomes infected.

The number of new positive cases is increasing, yet hospitalizations and deaths are not keeping pace.  The lower death rates do not fit the Democrats' scare tactics.

Don't take me wrong - thousand of people people are still dying, and its sad. 

Sometimes death comes quickly in otherwise normal people.  My ER doctor friend yesterday told me of such a case.

              -  Last week, he diagnosed a 45-yo male visit to the ER.  Minor symptoms, clear lung X-ray, sent home, awaiting results of the COVID test. 

             -  Three days later, my friend was working when the same 45-yo returned with major symptoms.  Positive test, X-ray showing infection., admitted to the COVID ward. 

             -  Three days after admission, the patient died.

Six days from minor symptoms to death. The mystery is why this person and not another.   Yes, this virus is a monster and taking the lives of fathers and mothers.  Be safe!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 29, 2020, 08:23:29 AM

Bull crap!  Election rhetoric - all part of a widespread political and media campaign to frighten voters.

These are my own thoughts and words Gator.

 

Quote
Individual choices largely determine whether one becomes infected.

Indeed, if there are folks around me not wearing masks, MY risk of infection is higher.

Quote
The number of new positive cases is increasing, yet hospitalizations and deaths are not keeping pace.  The lower death rates do not fit the Democrats' scare tactics.


Has Florida not experienced weeks of record infections and deaths?  Is the 7 day moving average for deaths average not going up and up still?

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 29, 2020, 08:49:58 AM

 Election rhetoric - all part of a widespread political and media campaign to frighten voters.   


Do you mean like Trump's defund police campaign add where the old woman dials 911?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 29, 2020, 09:19:06 AM
Like I said...internet losers.

http://www.henryford.com/news/2020/07/hydro-treatment-study

Contact page, baby. Anytime.


Someone (who should know better than to post stuff without checking )  is still 'at it' and suggesting outlier snake-oil doctors/ 'research'  / 'clinical trials' ( not )- have 'validity' ...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 29, 2020, 09:27:23 AM
Contact page baby..or STFU. Your choice.

Here it is again: http://www.henryford.com/about/contact
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 29, 2020, 09:33:04 AM
'Outliers' v FDA..

http://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safety-and-availability/fda-cautions-against-use-hydroxychloroquine-or-chloroquine-covid-19-outside-hospital-setting-or (http://www.fda.gov/drugs/drug-safety-and-availability/fda-cautions-against-use-hydroxychloroquine-or-chloroquine-covid-19-outside-hospital-setting-or)

"June 15, 2020 Update: Based on ongoing analysis and emerging scientific data, FDA has revoked the emergency use authorization (EUA) to use hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine to treat COVID-19 in certain hospitalized patients when a clinical trial is unavailable or participation is not feasible. We made this determination based on recent results from a large, randomized clinical trial in hospitalized patients that found these medicines showed no benefit for decreasing the likelihood of death or speeding recovery. This outcome was consistent with other new data, including those showing the suggested dosing for these medicines are unlikely to kill or inhibit the virus that causes COVID-19. As a result, we determined that the legal criteria for the EUA are no longer met. Please refer to the Revocation of the EUA Letter and FAQs on the Revocation of the EUA for Hydroxychloroquine Sulfate and Chloroquine Phosphate for more information."

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 29, 2020, 09:34:30 AM
Deflection. Try again.

Contact Page:  http://www.henryford.com/about/contact

Come back and tell us what the result is. Otherwise, STFU.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 29, 2020, 09:38:42 AM
Deflection. Try again.

Contact Page:  http://www.henryford.com/about/contact

Come back and tell us what the result is. Otherwise, STFU.

GQB is busted and claims I'm 'deflecting' ..It would be hilarious, if this wasn't so serious. 

Why don't you write to the FDA, GQB ? :popcorn:

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 29, 2020, 09:39:48 AM
GQB is busted and claims I'm 'deflecting' ..It would be hilarious, if this wasn't so serious. 

Why don't you write to the FDA, GQB ? :popcorn:

Fail. Try again or STFU.

Contact page:  http://www.henryford.com/about/contact

Study officially filed at : http://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30534-8/fulltext

Knock yourself out, baby! Contact Page!!!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 29, 2020, 09:59:45 AM
GQ,

I don't want the bone you are fighting with moby over, but the most important statement on the Ford page is the following:

Quote
Conclusions and relevance
In this multi-hospital assessment, when controlling for COVID-19 risk factors, treatment with hydroxychloroquine alone and in combination with azithromycin was associated with reduction in COVID-19 associated mortality. Prospective trials are needed to examine this impact.

In other words a randomized trial would be necessary to confirm their results.  IIRC there was a trial under similar admittance conditions but it was halted?  Do you know of other trials that support the Ford results showing efficacy?

http://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-halts-clinical-trial-hydroxychloroquine.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 29, 2020, 10:09:46 AM
I addressed that already on another thread, BC. It doesn't diminished the resulting conclusive study in Henry Ford's multiple hospitals. They published and filed the report in the IJID this month. To this date, the study stands.

This means all data are available for inspection, scrutiny and open for prospective study to either support and/or refute the results of their study.

I'm not sure if moby's Googling habit is enough to challenged Henry Ford's epidemiologists for the time being. Dunno, maybe he's also looking for Guardian's opinion article on this one.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 29, 2020, 10:13:47 AM
I addressed that already on another thread, BC. It doesn't diminished the resulting conclusive study in Henry Ford's multiple hospitals. They published and filed the report in the IJID this month. To this date, the study stands.

This means all data are available for inspection, scrutiny and open for prospective study to either support and/or refute the results of their study.

I'm not sure if moby's Googling habit is enough to challenged Henry Ford's epidemiologists for the time being. Dunno, maybe he's also looking for Guardian's opinion article on this one.

In other words, no.. GQB is 'desperate' to not simply state.. "I, like the President, was simply WRONG .."

 .. it's another outlier .. not a proper clinical trial ... the FDA holds sway.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 29, 2020, 10:15:01 AM
In other words, no.. GQB is 'desperate' to not simply state.. "I, like the President, was simply WRONG .."

 .. it's another outlier .. not a proper clinical trial ... the FDA holds sway.

Fail. STFU.

Contact page, baby...what's the matter? No Guardian opinion article to refute?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 29, 2020, 10:21:42 AM
Fail. STFU.

Contact page, baby...what's the matter? No Guardian opinion article to refute?

For the reader not yet comatose..Unlike GQB, who had not HEARD of HCQ .. I have a family member that does use it and strangely enough, Googled, sought the 'advice' of folks who are practicing ( sen. physicians)  re this drug, LONG before GQB thought it might 'help' re the virus..



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 29, 2020, 10:23:13 AM
For the reader not yet comatose..Unlike GQB, who had not HEARD of HCQ .. I have a family member that does use it and strangely enough, Googled, sought the 'advice' of folks who are practicing ( sen. physicians)  re this drug, LONG before GQB thought it might 'help' re the virus..

Fail. STFU. :devil:

Contact page:  http://www.henryford.com/about/contact

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 29, 2020, 10:25:54 AM
These are my own thoughts and words Gator.

And every anti-Trump media platform and every Democrat politician.   
 

Quote
Indeed, if there are folks around me not wearing masks, MY risk of infection is higher.

I gave them a wide berth.    Today they are rare inside shops, and I still give everyone a wide berth.  My largest risk is playing golf because some dudes are too excitable.   


Quote
Has Florida not experienced weeks of record infections and deaths?  Is the 7 day moving average for deaths average not going up and up still?

About 800 deaths this past seven days vs. 300 the first week in July. 

6,333 total deaths in Florida = accumulative CFR of 1.4%  (vs. 14.2% for Italy)   Florida population is 22 million population vs. Italy's 60 million.  You have explained Italy's high CFR is due in part to age, yet Florida has many seniors (13% 60-69, 9% 70-79, 5% 80+).

Accumulative CFR:    1.4%  July 29
                               2.2%  July 1
                               4.3%  June 1
                               3.8%  May 1

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 29, 2020, 10:56:54 AM
And every anti-Trump media platform and every Democrat politician. 

Wouldn't it be the same for you as it applies to the Trump media platform and conservative politicians?
 

Quote
I gave them a wide berth.    Today they are rare inside shops, and I still give everyone a wide berth.  My largest risk is playing golf because some dudes are too excitable. 
 

That's great for you.  Masks are more about not infecting others than protecting oneself.


Quote
About 800 deaths this past seven days vs. 300 the first week in July. 

6,333 total deaths in Florida = accumulative CFR of 1.4%  (vs. 14.2% for Italy)   Florida population is 22 million population vs. Italy's 60 million.  You have explained Italy's high CFR is due in part to age, yet Florida has many seniors (13% 60-69, 9% 70-79, 5% 80+).

Accumulative CFR:    1.4%  July 29
                               2.2%  July 1
                               4.3%  June 1
                               3.8%  May 1

What does that equal, 294 deaths per million and counting fast.?  I'll let you do the math as to what you expect deaths per million in Florida will be by election day and end of the year.  Do you expect it to be lower or higher than Italy's deaths per million?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on July 29, 2020, 11:18:12 AM
You just couldn't make this up...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53575964 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53575964)

US President Donald Trump has again defended the use of hydroxychloroquine to ward off coronavirus, contradicting his own public health officials.

He said the malaria medication was only rejected as a Covid-19 treatment because he had recommended its use.

His remarks come after Twitter banned his eldest son for posting a clip promoting hydroxychloroquine.

There is no evidence the drug can fight the virus, and regulators warn it may cause heart problems.

On Wednesday Dr Anthony Fauci, a leading member of the White House coronavirus task force, told the BBC that hydroxychloroquine was not effective against the virus.

"We know that every single good study - and by good study I mean randomised control study in which the data are firm and believable - has shown that hydroxychloroquine is not effective in the treatment of Covid-19," he said.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on July 29, 2020, 12:48:17 PM
MAGA!!! 4 More Years! 4 More Years!!
I really believe many leaders of other nations would like to see trump prevail.  My belief is 4 more years of trump would be destructive to the US as a whole in terms of how we make deals with and expect/demand cooperation from other nations.  I think more nations will continue to break from us, and we will find ourselves alone more and more often.   The good news about that is as our soft power continues to erode, we won't be able to start or foment as many conflicts as we did under past presidents.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 29, 2020, 02:38:29 PM
Wouldn't it be the same for you as it applies to the Trump media platform and conservative politicians?

1.  Trump -  I think Trump is an asshole, yet I support the policies, especially in contrast with the Democrat alternatives and the direction the Democrats are heading.

2.  Conservative Politicians - Many of the Republican senators have noble goals.    The House Republicans are mixed, probably because they share the chambers with the many Democrat radicals.       

3.  Media - I am watching less and less news.   CNN has declined to such advocacy to be unwatchable.   Excepting Sunday's GPS, I see CNN only when Fox mocks their coverage.   When the Times and Post return their Pulitzers because they helped fabricate the Russian collusion hoax, I may start reading them.  Until then I would prefer being dipped in shit.   My limited time is confined mostly to Fox and BBC except when the latter is covering the UK (not interested).  Fox is too repetitive yet the afternoon show 'The Five' will at least make  fun of journalistic absurdity, Mike Wallace's son strives for balance, and  Laura Ingraham relaxes me before bedtime (Raymond is a delight).   
 

Quote
That's great for you.  Masks are more about not infecting others than protecting oneself.

A mask works both ways, but better at limiting output.


Quote
What does that equal, 294 deaths per million and counting fast.?  I'll let you do the math as to what you expect deaths per million in Florida will be by election day and end of the year.  Do you expect it to be lower or higher than Italy's deaths per million?

By election day - lower.     If no vaccine is developed the 2021 deaths per million will be more than Italy's 2020 rate.  However, without a vaccine Italy and Europe will start ticking up again in 2021. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on July 29, 2020, 03:11:23 PM
Young people returning home from work, friends, bars, etc.  are infecting their more vulnerable family members.   We talked about this, and now the reports from contact tracing and other patterns in Houston, South Florida and elsewhere have confirmed it.  Factors frequently cited are:

                   -  multigenerational housing,
                   -  low-income
                   -  minority 

Here is one such story from South Florida

   http://www.wfla.com/community/health/coronavirus/florida-dad-in-icu-with-coronavirus-after-son-21-apparently-infected-entire-family-mom-says/ 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 29, 2020, 03:23:52 PM
1.  Trump -  I think Trump is an asshole, yet I support the policies, especially in contrast with the Democrat alternatives and the direction the Democrats are heading.

Even policies, when put before United is wrong, something like trying to force-feed a horse - doesn't work out well.  This is the downside of overwhelming policy by executive pen.

Quote
2.  Conservative Politicians - Many of the Republican senators have noble goals.    The House Republicans are mixed, probably because they share the chambers with the many Democrat radicals.
 

Many, I feel, are too dependent on Trump fearing loss of his 'base' support needed to keep their jobs.   

Quote
3.  Media - I am watching less and less news.   CNN has declined to such advocacy to be unwatchable.   Excepting Sunday's GPS, I see CNN only when Fox mocks their coverage.   When the Times and Post return their Pulitzers because they helped fabricate the Russian collusion hoax, I may start reading them.  Until then I would prefer being dipped in shit.   My limited time is confined mostly to Fox and BBC except when the latter is covering the UK (not interested).  Fox is too repetitive yet the afternoon show 'The Five' will at least make  fun of journalistic absurdity, Mike Wallace's son strives for balance, and  Laura Ingraham relaxes me before bedtime (Raymond is a delight).

For the most part it's a show Gator and not news.  The repetitiveness is often boring.  I wish more would dig into the material instead of allowing their brains to get pounded with one viewpoint.

Quote
A mask works both ways, but better at limiting output.
Indeed.

Quote
By election day - lower.     If no vaccine is developed the 2021 deaths per million will be more than Italy's 2020 rate.  However, without a vaccine Italy and Europe will start ticking up again in 2021.

I'd love to see your math. Impress me. Give me confidence.  By golly I do want it your way.  Without a vaccine Europe will fair much better than back home.  They're honing test, track and trace skills to a very sharp edge. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 29, 2020, 08:48:01 PM
GQ,

I don't want the bone you are fighting with moby over, but the most important statement on the Ford page is the following:

In other words a randomized trial would be necessary to confirm their results.  IIRC there was a trial under similar admittance conditions but it was halted?  Do you know of other trials that support the Ford results showing efficacy?

http://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/nih-halts-clinical-trial-hydroxychloroquine.

BC-

Just got this info. Apparently another study was also peer reviewed and published 3 weeks ago in Journal Of General Internal Medicine by NY’s Mt Sinai Hospital. This one actually involved a bigger pool.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11606-020-05983-z

http://thinkpol.ca/2020/07/03/ny-study-finds-hydroxychloroquine-may-have-saved-covid-19-patients-lives/amp/

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1477893920302817#!

http://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 30, 2020, 03:25:42 AM
Hi GQ,

Thanks for the links.

All seem to be retrospective assessments based on past patient histories.  That's not to say it's not a good starting point, just that they are not double-blind randomized trials like I guess the NIH trial was that was stopped.

Let's keep looking though, I believe there were some trials for prophylactic use before folks get infected.

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 30, 2020, 09:15:07 AM
Hi GQ,

Thanks for the links.

All seem to be retrospective assessments based on past patient histories.  That's not to say it's not a good starting point, just that they are not double-blind randomized trials like I guess the NIH trial was that was stopped.

Let's keep looking though, I believe there were some trials for prophylactic use before folks get infected.

This is just from a novice perception, BC. Lancet had also coined this before. It appears if HCQ is administered at a very early onset of the virus, paired with the cited agents, it proves much more effective. This would actually makes sense since it'll suppress activation of our body's auto-immune system which had been credited to be what causes intubation and ultimately fatalities.

Anyway, my point is: if one in a 100, 10 in a 1000, or 90 out of a hundred (or anything in between, short of an effective vaccine at this time) survives due to its administration; cannot be a bad thing. Not to me anyway.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on July 30, 2020, 02:46:21 PM
It's super, super important that nothing works on Covid until
after the election. Anything that works or has been shown to
work MUST be destroyed. After the election everything from
Palm readers to PEZ will be a cure for Covid.

If the economy started recovering now then what would Biden
do? (Lose in a landslide).

The Dem's have already began defunding the police. What will
happen to people in the suburbs? They will vote for Trump in
droves. What will Biden do? (Lose in a landslide).
http://www.10tv.com/article/news/local/ohio/dewine-asks-ohio-pharmacy-board-to-reverse-decision-prohibiting-hydroxychloroquine-for-treating-covid-19/530-48a1b374-97a0-47a4-a737-a2d83bddec0e


Oh no! Moby is going to hyper ventilate
Yale epidemiologist: Dr. Fauci running 'misinformation campaign'
against hydroxychloroquine

http://justthenews.com/politics-policy/coronavirus/yale-epidemiologist-accuses-fauci-running-disinformation-campaign

Ohio pharmacy board withdraws rule prohibiting use of
hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19

http://www.10tv.com/article/news/local/ohio/dewine-asks-ohio-pharmacy-board-to-reverse-decision-prohibiting-hydroxychloroquine-for-treating-covid-19/530-48a1b374-97a0-47a4-a737-a2d83bddec0e


The Key to Defeating COVID-19 Already Exists. We Need to Start Using It
http://www.10tv.com/article/news/local/ohio/dewine-asks-ohio-pharmacy-board-to-reverse-decision-prohibiting-hydroxychloroquine-for-treating-covid-19/530-48a1b374-97a0-47a4-a737-a2d83bddec0e



Harvey A. Risch, MD, PhD , Professor of Epidemiology, Yale School of Public Health[Moby knows somebody who took stuff
and that far exceeds any medical degree.]
http://www.newsweek.com/key-defeating-covid-19-already-exists-we-need-start-using-it-opinion-1519535

If Social Media Wants to Play Doctor, They Should Prepare To Be Sued for Malpractice
Twitter and Facebook should not be restricting legitimate medical policy debate on their platforms
http://amgreatness.com/2020/07/28/if-social-media-wants-to-play-doctor-they-should-prepare-to-be-sued-for-malpractice/

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 30, 2020, 03:23:29 PM
This is just from a novice perception, BC. Lancet had also coined this before. It appears if HCQ is administered at a very early onset of the virus, paired with the cited agents, it proves much more effective. This would actually makes sense since it'll suppress activation of our body's auto-immune system which had been credited to be what causes intubation and ultimately fatalities.


Another thing killing people is their immune system isn't strong enough or reacts fast enough to stop COVID-19. Taking a medication that suppresses the immune system can increase their chances of death. Doctors can't look at someone and guess how their immune system will react with COVID-19 at any point of the battle they have with it. One minute a person is battling the disease just fine and weeks later their immune system gives up or goes into overdrive.


Former Presidential candidate Herman Cain died of COVID-19 after a month long battle. Last week he thanked supporters and said he was on the mend and hoped to go home soon.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/music/celebrity/herman-cain-mourned-by-trump-onetime-rival-mitt-romney-sean-hannity-and-more/ar-BB17nA1L?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds


Chinese scientist in the video below escaped the country. She said the SARS-COV-2 is lab created and she will prepare a report to show how easy it can be created in the lab. She speaks English very fast with a bad accent. Had to read the subtitles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqQuRSQPNg4
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 30, 2020, 03:38:37 PM
Another thing killing people is their immune system isn't strong enough or reacts fast enough to stop COVID-19. Taking a medication that suppresses the immune system can increase their chances of death. Doctors can't look at someone and guess how their immune system will react with COVID-19 at any point of the battle they have with it. One minute a person is battling the disease just fine and weeks later their immune system gives up or goes into overdrive.

Yes. There was also a man in India who was given HCQ and next thing you know he was faster than a speeding bullet and able to jump tall buildings in one bounce, and can actually stop a speeding freight train with one hand.

Then there's those hundreds of thousands, maybe millions, out there who got COVID and they didn't even know they actually had it, yet they are out there wearing masks making sure they don't get infected.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 30, 2020, 04:17:58 PM

GQ, it's over for HCQ. Any authority that allow the use of drugs and reviewed all the trials have given HCQ thumbs down. I have a friend who's worked in drug development and it takes years for drugs to get approval and most drugs never make it to the market. It's a long and controlled process and he's amused by the stories out there that a miracle drug can be found in a short time. Even with relaxing the rules, HCQ didn't make the cut. What are the chances of any medicine we got designed for something else being able to work with the virus of the century? Try finding a needle in a haystack. It took a very long time before they could decent treatments for HIV. Vaccines for this new coronavirus may prove to be not effective. We could be living with this virus a long time.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 30, 2020, 06:20:53 PM
GQ, it's over for HCQ. Any authority that allow the use of drugs and reviewed all the trials have given HCQ thumbs down. I have a friend who's worked in drug development and it takes years for drugs to get approval and most drugs never make it to the market. It's a long and controlled process and he's amused by the stories out there that a miracle drug can be found in a short time. Even with relaxing the rules, HCQ didn't make the cut. What are the chances of any medicine we got designed for something else being able to work with the virus of the century? Try finding a needle in a haystack. It took a very long time before they could decent treatments for HIV. Vaccines for this new coronavirus may prove to be not effective. We could be living with this virus a long time.

Not to be repetitive, don’t tell me. Tell Henry Ford and Mt Sinai hospitals they’re full of sh!t because you have a friend working in drug development, man. You know how to contact them by now. There’s also that senior epedimiologist at Yale. I don’t have a friend that works for a drug development department so I won’t be able to give you any tip what to tell these guys, no?

Good luck!

Btw- if you succeed against those above and prove them wrong, you’d more than definitely get invited as a guest speaker at CNN. If you do,make it with Erin Burnett. She’s cute and get me a 8x10 autograph picture.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 30, 2020, 08:31:59 PM
Conclusions and relevance
In this multi-hospital assessment, when controlling for COVID-19 risk factors, treatment with hydroxychloroquine alone and in combination with azithromycin was associated with reduction in COVID-19 associated mortality. Prospective trials are needed to examine this impact.


The above is from the Henry Ford link. They concluded more trials are needed. If they don't feel a need to complete all the trials necessary to get a drug approved, then they've given up. And there's no reason for anybody to call them to tell them they're wrong when their conclusion is they need more trials.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 30, 2020, 09:59:42 PM
I don’t really what that means so I’ll just make something up

They concluded from their study that the administration of the subject combination was associated with the reduction of COVID mortality in the over 2,000 patient cases in 6 of their hospitals. That part concluded, meaning the cases showed fewer patients died when given the combination compared to the patients who did not receive administration - a follow-up study deemed required to further examine this impact.

Best you ask your friend for clarity as you didn’t seem to understand. Good thing this came up now before you contacted them. ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on July 31, 2020, 05:24:55 AM
The above is from the Henry Ford link. They concluded more trials are needed. If they don't feel a need to complete all the trials necessary to get a drug approved, then they've given up. And there's no reason for anybody to call them to tell them they're wrong when their conclusion is they need more trials.

Billy there are literally 100's of doctors speaking out about the effectiveness of HCQ and getting silenced. They have done trials in the heat of battle both as a prophylactic and a treatment. Still they have had to battle the medical establishment and the media over a treatment of already previously approved drugs. This treatment is about $10 bucks a pop yet for some strange reason the world is spending billions and billions of dollars rushing for a vaccine that may (or may not) prevent you from getting covid in the first place. When they feel they have a vaccine rest assured it won't be given the trials they're calling for HCQ. Big Pharma and Fauci have blown smoke up your and the worlds collective ass and you're saluting it
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on July 31, 2020, 06:50:42 AM
Billy there are literally 100's of doctors speaking out about the effectiveness of HCQ and getting silenced.  When they feel they have a vaccine rest assured it won't be given the trials they're calling for HCQ. Big Pharma and Fauci have blown smoke up your and the worlds collective ass and you're saluting it
Doesn't seem plausible that practically all the world's nations would be in on keeping HCQ a secret.  It seems most doctors don't hold out hope for HCQ as a panacea. 
That said, If people want to use it, then they should.

Fathertime!     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 31, 2020, 08:12:11 AM
Billy there are literally 100's of doctors speaking out about the effectiveness of HCQ and getting silenced. They have done trials in the heat of battle both as a prophylactic and a treatment.


Soldiers in the heat of battle don't get to see the overall picture that generals do. None of those 100s of doctors are qualified to do real trials. Not only do they need to figure out if a drug works, they need to find out how it affects people with a wide variety of diseases or on other medications. It's easy to find hundreds of people who disagree on anything. I'm not surprised hundreds of doctors spoke out but they are still outnumbered by the silent majority. Also, no authority that allows doctors to use drugs approve HCQ for emergency use anymore. After the trials, they concluded it wasn't the drug some doctors claimed it to be. I believe those authorities do care about the American people and want to get it right. They don't want a drug floating around doing little to help and a lot to hurt. Drugs that are prescribed are controlled for a reason. If you don't believe the authorities on drugs, you'd have to believe there is a conspiracy.


That said, If people want to use it, then they should.


HCQ is not approved for emergency use anymore. They've allowed doctors to use other replacements for emergency use. Like treatments for HIV, it may take years to create a working drug to treat COVID-19.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on July 31, 2020, 08:28:17 AM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/lb200729cd20200729033652.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on July 31, 2020, 08:36:37 AM
Soldiers in the heat of battle don't get to see the overall picture that generals do. None of those 100s of doctors are qualified to do real trials. Not only do they need to figure out if a drug works, they need to find out how it affects people with a wide variety of diseases or on other medications. It's easy to find hundreds of people who disagree on anything. I'm not surprised hundreds of doctors spoke out but they are still outnumbered by the silent majority. Also, no authority that allows doctors to use drugs approve HCQ for emergency use anymore. After the trials, they concluded it wasn't the drug some doctors claimed it to be. I believe those authorities do care about the American people and want to get it right. They don't want a drug floating around doing little to help and a lot to hurt. Drugs that are prescribed are controlled for a reason. If you don't believe the authorities on drugs, you'd have to believe there is a conspiracy.


Silent majority? You mean the silent majority that is silencing doctors on the front line actually treating covid patients with much success rather than following the protocols of the WHO and CDC? These doctors are using those previously approved drugs to treat their patients rather than taking orders from the medical cabal that apparently has other interest than actually treating the infected. You're drinking the kool-aid Billy
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 31, 2020, 08:49:14 AM
Doesn't seem plausible that practically all the world's nations would be in on keeping HCQ a secret.  It seems most doctors don't hold out hope for HCQ as a panacea.

Don't be surprised what our societies, domestic or international can actually do these days. Especially when it involves global pharmas. I mean look at what the likes of George Soros can do these days? Look at what Google, Facebook, the media are actively doing today? Look what our own government had done with the whole Russian collusion BS?

The irony in this entire period is Anthony Fauci is shooting 50% during this entire virus saga. He is just as wrong as he is right. Even the 'right' is questionable considering they came after. Yet, people hang their every belief in everything he said.

Quote
That said, If people want to use it, then they should.

This, I agree...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on July 31, 2020, 08:50:11 AM
Doesn't seem plausible that practically all the world's nations would be in on keeping HCQ a secret.  It seems most doctors don't hold out hope for HCQ as a panacea. 
That said, If people want to use it, then they should.

Fathertime!   

Why wouldn't it be plausible? HCQ is more every day being revealed as a treatment that is working if applied in time.

The world's nations we also shunned and pointed fingers at Sweden's approach which, btw was the same approach every nation used for prior viruses to covid, herd immunity. Sweden never shut down nor had a mask mandate. They'll end up having less deaths than most comparable countries as a result.

Bottom line is The entire situation was misdirected worldwide  as a result of China, the WHO and the CDC. Now we should still adhere to the advice that is wrong and continually rubber stamped as accurate with little to no science to support it? Remember most that are infected and still less than 1% of those actually die.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 31, 2020, 10:04:23 AM
Silent majority? You mean the silent majority that is silencing doctors on the front line actually treating covid patients with much success rather than following the protocols of the WHO and CDC?


A lot of doctors aren't having success with HCQ and are promoting something else to WHO, FDA and the CDC. Those organizations have given emergency approval for doctors to use those something else drugs. Sure a few hundred doctors are sticking to the story HCQ works. The left wing media doesn't promote them but the right wing media does so they aren't completely silent. WHO, FDA and CDC wants something to work on humanity. They gave HCQ a shot and it wasn't what was claimed to be by some doctors. How much more money and time you want to spend on HCQ sending it through trials? The money and time is better spent on other existing drugs that show promise or to develop an all new treatment made exclusively for COVID. The Mueller investigation was long, expensive and thorough. Some people don't want to let it go. It's time to let HCQ go.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on July 31, 2020, 10:12:57 AM
Trump supporters don’t wear no stinkin masks!
Yee-haw, macho up and the virus can't see you!
this is why Trump doesn’t want ya’ll to wear masks!!
he’s tryin to SAVE you!!!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on July 31, 2020, 11:37:43 AM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/gv073120dAPR20200731064508.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 02, 2020, 08:43:24 AM
Can the president come across any more of an idiot?

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/01/trump-covid-19-fauci-cases-testing

Donald Trump claims Anthony Fauci ‘wrong’ about cause of Covid-19 surge

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 02, 2020, 09:16:36 AM
BBC News - Coronavirus: The bogus meme targeting Dr Fauci, and other fake claims
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/53601027

Some reality for HCQ 'experts'...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on August 02, 2020, 09:32:26 AM
Can the president come across any more of an idiot?

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/01/trump-covid-19-fauci-cases-testing

Donald Trump claims Anthony Fauci ‘wrong’ about cause of Covid-19 surge

BBC News - Coronavirus: The bogus meme targeting Dr Fauci, and other fake claims
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/53601027

Some reality for HCQ 'experts'...

Fake News
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on August 02, 2020, 05:50:35 PM
Why wouldn't it be plausible? HCQ is more every day being revealed as a treatment that is working if applied in time.

The world's nations we also shunned and pointed fingers at Sweden's approach which, btw was the same approach every nation used for prior viruses to covid, herd immunity. Sweden never shut down nor had a mask mandate. They'll end up having less deaths than most comparable countries as a result.

Bottom line is The entire situation was misdirected worldwide  as a result of China, the WHO and the CDC. Now we should still adhere to the advice that is wrong and continually rubber stamped as accurate with little to no science to support it? Remember most that are infected and still less than 1% of those actually die.

HCQ has been used successfully by Brazil and Switzerland.

As 2TallBill has mentioned above or elsewhere Fauci is running a deliberate smear campaign against it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 02, 2020, 10:20:35 PM
HCQ has been used successfully by Brazil and Switzerland.

As 2TallBill has mentioned above or elsewhere Fauci is running a deliberate smear campaign against it.

Con,

http://www.bag.admin.ch/bag/de/home/medizin-und-forschung/heilmittel/covid19_vo_2.html

According to the official Swiss healthcare website:

Quote
The Swiss Society for Infectious Diseases has withdrawn this treatment from its recommendations and only recommends it in the context of clinical studies.

(translated)

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 02, 2020, 10:40:38 PM
Article below says HCQ been in over 350 studies which is near double of any other drug. They point out flaws in even the most promising study saying "In the Henry Ford trial, patients that got hydroxychloroquine were about five years younger, on average, than those who didn’t, Schluger says. “We know that age is the single strongest predictor of mortality from this illness.”

http://www.sciencenews.org/article/covid-19-coronavirus-hydroxychloroquine-no-evidence-treatment

How much more time and money some of you guys want to dump into studies about a medicine that was designed for another illness thinking it be the miracle treatment against the virus of the century?

My local newspaper put out interesting stats. People 80 years and older in my state have a 51% chance in dying from COVID-19. Ages 60-79 have a 38% chance in dying. Ages 40-59 have a 9% chance in dying. Ages 20-39 have a 2% chance in dying. Some of you guys may want to alter your behavior and I don't mean by partying more.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 02, 2020, 10:50:24 PM
HCQ has been used successfully by Brazil and Switzerland.

'Sure' it has ...

Switzerland

Study finds hydroxychloroquine linked to higher death rate in Covid-19 patients


http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/zurich-university-hospital_study-finds-hydroxychloroquine-linked-to-higher-death-rate-in-covid-19-patients/45779864 (http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/zurich-university-hospital_study-finds-hydroxychloroquine-linked-to-higher-death-rate-in-covid-19-patients/45779864)

Brazil:

"a 7-day course of hydroxychloroquine either with azithromycin or alone did not result in better clinical outcomes as measured by a seven-level ordinal scale at 15 days. There was also no effect on any of the secondary outcomes. Occurrence of any adverse event, elevation of liver-enzyme levels, and prolongation of the QTc interval was more frequent in patients receiving hydroxychloroquine with azithromycin or hydroxychloroquine alone than in those receiving neither agent."

Professor Flavia Machado, from the research group Coalizao Covid-19 Brasil and an ICU director of Hospital Sao Paulo, conducted the largest study of the drug across 55 hospitals in Brazil. She said that while they continue to assess its use in the early stages of the disease, it should for now only be used in clinical trials.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2019014 (http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2019014)

You know sod all about HCQ - you'd probably never heard of it before the virus outbreak..  But then you're as 'smart' as 'Trampu' and  Bolsonaro..





Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 02, 2020, 11:10:45 PM
My local newspaper put out interesting stats. People 80 years and older in my state have a 51% chance in dying from COVID-19. Ages 60-79 have a 38% chance in dying. Ages 40-59 have a 9% chance in dying. Ages 20-39 have a 2% chance in dying. Some of you guys may want to alter your behavior and I don't mean by partying more.

Billy,

agree with your post, but just curious as to the percentages you mentioned.  Are these percentages of folks that are admitted to the hospital, or were put on respirators or other?  They seem to be quite high for folks that were just infected.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 03, 2020, 12:55:42 AM
Billy,

agree with your post, but just curious as to the percentages you mentioned.  Are these percentages of folks that are admitted to the hospital, or were put on respirators or other?  They seem to be quite high for folks that were just infected.

I need to correct what I wrote. It's not chance in dying after infected as I mentioned. I looked at the chart in the newspaper again and it's titled "Death by Age" so basically 51% of the people in my state who died from COVID-19 were over 80 years old. 60-79yo people accounted for 38% of the deaths, 40-59yo accounted for 9% of the deaths and 20-39 accounted for 2% of the deaths
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 03, 2020, 08:10:50 AM
Article below says HCQ been in over 350 studies which is near double of any other drug. They point out flaws in even the most promising study saying "In the Henry Ford trial, patients that got hydroxychloroquine were about five years younger, on average, than those who didn’t, Schluger says. “We know that age is the single strongest predictor of mortality from this illness.”

http://www.sciencenews.org/article/covid-19-coronavirus-hydroxychloroquine-no-evidence-treatment

How much more time and money some of you guys want to dump into studies about a medicine that was designed for another illness thinking it be the miracle treatment against the virus of the century?

My local newspaper put out interesting stats. People 80 years and older in my state have a 51% chance in dying from COVID-19. Ages 60-79 have a 38% chance in dying. Ages 40-59 have a 9% chance in dying. Ages 20-39 have a 2% chance in dying. Some of you guys may want to alter your behavior and I don't mean by partying more.

:ROFL:

To your credit, you only crack me up some of the times, BillyB. Let's see....Just in this thread alone, you've shown us...

1. Your deficiency with basic math (1x1x1 = 1 SF)
2. Now, you just displayed your deficiency in reading and comprehending an article intentionally written for public consumption. Not medical journal or case studies riveted with numeric, clinical data...

Lastly, and just for sh!ts and giggles..

3. Weren't you the same guy who hoarded Vitamin C saying it'll render you immune to COVID-19, provided a link to support your 'belief', only to see it actually contradicted your claim. Matter of fact the only thing vit. c is sure to give you when you get too much of it is 'diarrhea'.

Again, you need to prove your expertise, BillyB. Both Henry Ford and Mt Sinai health institutions will gladly address any question/s, or challenges, you may like to present. I'm sure with or without your drug development buddy.

You know the drill. Contact page.

:devil:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 03, 2020, 08:36:06 AM

GQ, you remind me of the people who fail to accept the Mueller report since you ignore Henry Ford's study concluding more trials are needed. They not only refuse to accept the report, but continue to try to beat the dead horse back to life refusing to let it go.  No drug in existence has been approved to treat any coronavirus related disease ever. But you think something in our medicine cabinet that's never worked before is NOW going to work on the virus of the century. Let it go man. I've said it before, it's Trump's job to give people hope but don't be so naďve to think hope is truth.

Here are some reasons the Henry Ford study was incomplete, flawed, not controlled, and had the introduction of bias.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/michigan/2020/07/31/anthony-fauci-henry-ford-health-hydroxychloroquine-study-flawed/5559367002/

http://www.cnn.com/2020/07/31/health/hydroxychloroquine-study-henry-ford-letters/index.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 03, 2020, 08:41:37 AM
:ROFL:

CNN?!? You must really be desperate.

Contact page, baby!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 03, 2020, 10:04:17 AM
GQB

YOU need to contact the FDA...

They are also not 'receiving'..


You might as well ask the Flat Earthers to contact NASA


That is how obtuse you come over..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on August 03, 2020, 10:25:47 AM
based on the mortality demographics...
Covid-19 is literally killing Trump's base...
it's just coincidence that a Virus from CHI-NA is killing Trump voters right before an election!
right....

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on August 05, 2020, 01:22:09 PM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/sbr080520dAPR20200805034508.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on August 11, 2020, 09:40:39 AM
Scientists uneasy as Russia approves 1st coronavirus vaccine
http://apnews.com/fcda62ad992db414d65f23b2adb78e44


Russia Claims 1st Covid Vaccine "Sputnik V";
Putin's Daughter Inoculated

Russia claims to have developed vaccine offering "sustainable immunity"
http://www.ndtv.com/world-news/russia-has-developed-first-coronavirus-vaccine-says-vladimir-putin-news-agency-afp-2277700
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on August 11, 2020, 11:28:27 AM
my daughters and I are scheduled to receive this vaccine in October...
me being a geezer, I'm supposed to feel sick from this virus for 48 hours...
my daughters being teens should recover in half the time with half the symptoms
so, I will go first, and they will care for me, then when I recover, they will take it, and I will care for them

we will have to quarantine TWICE, and I need to document my quarantine
the second one I will have an anti-body count test by the government
and I will get a "к" stamp on my passport

at that point, my daughters and I should be VERY covid-19 resistant
enough I hope, that we can go ahead with this crazy idea of my oldest daughter getting married in Moscva at the end of October
in the middle of a freaking global pandemic

after that, if I have faith in the effectiveness of the vaccine...
i.e. I'm still alive
I MAY decide to take a trip to the Russian far eastern city of Mirny, a gritty siberan mining town
I pay someone there to "keep me informed" about the black market in illicit diamonds there
the market has collapsed, due to a lack of buyers
and prices falling and inventory are building

I can swap laundered dollars for diamonds
and make money on both sides of the transaction
I freakin love Russia

if the vaccine does give me immunity
I will have a huge hidden advantage over ALL the other dealers!



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 11, 2020, 11:53:48 AM
my daughters and I are scheduled to receive this vaccine in October...


Thanks for volunteering to be a guinea pig. 

Have you examined the data?  You should now ask, "What data?"   The scientific community has seen only sketchy data. 

Supposedly, Russia's approval of the vaccine is based on a test of 38 humans.  That is equivalent to a Phase 1 trial.  So Russia skips the Phase 2 trial and is now starting what we would consider the Phase 3 trial, except it is more - it will expand quickly into a massive vaccination program. 

I hope all works out for you and your family.  If I were you, I would follow the study closely, and try to establish  contact with some scientist on the "inside."
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on August 11, 2020, 01:11:21 PM
volunteer moy jhoppa
that line has a fee 'bro
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 11, 2020, 01:19:28 PM

Krim, when you're writing your will, remember the name BillyB!!!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on August 11, 2020, 03:33:13 PM
Krim, when you're writing your will, remember the name BillyB!!!
Like going to find it... before it finds you huh?  (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/undecided.gif)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on August 11, 2020, 05:19:55 PM
Russians don't NEED no testing, we're freakin Russians
the first people taking it IS the trial...
by the time we take it, we'll be at 3rd stage trial level
you guys in the USA will be lucky to get a Hydroxy tablet with a gold "T" on it by then
or a little bottle of liquid Trump Tower Covid Killin bleach
good luck to you all

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on August 11, 2020, 10:45:37 PM
my daughters and I are scheduled to receive this vaccine in October...
me being a geezer, I'm supposed to feel sick from this virus for 48 hours...
my daughters being teens should recover in half the time with half the symptoms
so, I will go first, and they will care for me, then when I recover, they will take it, and I will care for them

we will have to quarantine TWICE, and I need to document my quarantine
the second one I will have an anti-body count test by the government
and I will get a "к" stamp on my passport

at that point, my daughters and I should be VERY covid-19 resistant
enough I hope, that we can go ahead with this crazy idea of my oldest daughter getting married in Moscva at the end of October
in the middle of a freaking global pandemic

after that, if I have faith in the effectiveness of the vaccine...
i.e. I'm still alive
I MAY decide to take a trip to the Russian far eastern city of Mirny, a gritty siberan mining town
I pay someone there to "keep me informed" about the black market in illicit diamonds there
the market has collapsed, due to a lack of buyers
and prices falling and inventory are building

I can swap laundered dollars for diamonds
and make money on both sides of the transaction
I freakin love Russia

if the vaccine does give me immunity
I will have a huge hidden advantage over ALL the other dealers!

For a guy claiming to be wealthy and having criminal connections you still don't know how to bribe someone for whatever paperwork you need without being a human Guinea pig? Fascinating.RIP geezer.
                            :ROFL: :ROFL:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 12, 2020, 04:54:28 AM
Russians don't NEED no testing, we're freakin Russians
the first people taking it IS the trial...
by the time we take it, we'll be at 3rd stage trial level

Yes, you will be part of a Phase 3 trial of a new drug under development that did not go through a Phase 2 trial.     

October is  a mere two months away, and too early (by US FDA standards) to determine safety and efficacy.

BIG QUESTIONS: 
 
    1.  Are the vaccinations now being administered by Russia done on a clinically randomized basis?  If given just to the elite and healthcare  workers, it is not randomized.

    2.  Will preliminary scientific data and analysis be available by October as the Phase 3 progresses?



SCIENTIFIC QUESTIONS:


The Russian vaccine is  supposedly derived from a common human virus (or 2-3), using such components  as a "viral vector" to deliver a gene sequence that prompts the development of the antibodies attacking the COVID "spikes."   This raises scientific questions:

     1.  Because the vector is a common virus it must be attenuated sufficiently, otherwise the human body recognizes it from prior infections and combats it, likely rendering it useless.  Does this vaccine produce the spike antibodies that attack the COVID spikes or just produces the same antibodies from past infections?

     2.  Does the vaccine require a booster injection?  Not having a Phase 2 trial, October is too soon to know the answer, and more important, the body's response to the booster.

     3.  Is the viral vector non-replicating?   If not, be prepared for a lengthy adverse reaction.   

         
Krimster, you are a smart fellow who likes to dig and probe through data.  I suggest you try to piece together the sketchy information Russia is collecting. 

If I were you, I would take the vaccine, yet I would not subject my daughters.   Your daughters are young, and young people when infected by COVID are more likely to develop mild symptoms,  if any symptoms.  Why risk making them a test subject for a new vaccine under development.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 12, 2020, 07:11:44 AM
Gator,

I doubt we'll ever really know much other than it either works or not.  I assume their vaccine has advanced to the point it won't normally kill anyone or cause great harm.  Would Putin proudly announce a vaccine that had a high risk of not working or causing harm?  Kinda doubt it.

I remember an interesting documentary on their space program.  Build it, if it blows up, fix it and try again.  IOW less high-level engineering and a more practical, hands-on KISS trial-by-fire development approach.  It worked out very well.

Also, imagine they can sidestep some of the lengthy ethical hurdles we face.







Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 12, 2020, 07:34:34 AM
I doubt we'll ever really know much other than it either works or not. 


State controlled media will keep us informed if it works and will tell us it's not causing long term health effects. Putin's going to be president till 2036. He has an image to protect. Hopefully hundreds of millions of Russians don't get hurt over this stunt. Since Russia won't release any data on this vaccine, it could be an existing vaccine in their medicine cabinet that already been through trials and they're simply relabeling the bottles for COVID. The other Russian vaccines in development are going through phase 2 and 3 trials before being released.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 12, 2020, 08:37:41 AM

I assume their vaccine has advanced to the point it won't normally kill anyone or cause great harm.

Yes, if it uses the platform of an existing platform, dependent upon what new wrinkles have been bioengineered into it.

Quote
Would Putin proudly announce a vaccine that had a high risk of not working or causing harm?  Kinda doubt it.

He is extrapolating from a Phase 1 trial,  100 people at most, as few as 38 based on the rumor mill.     The vaccine is more likely ineffective rather than harmful, provided the viral vectors are non-replicating.   


Quote
....trial-by-fire development approach.  It worked out very well.

Would you want to be one of the first subjects in a trial-by-fire development?


Quote
Also, imagine they can sidestep some of the lengthy ethical hurdles we face.

Hypocritical comment from someone advocating total lockdown.  What you call "ethical" is actually "health and safety."  In America,  given the exigency, we have already fast tracked our normal standards.   Russia has hyper tracked.    Would you want your wife to use her contacts to be vaccinated today? 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 12, 2020, 09:12:55 AM

He is extrapolating from a Phase 1 trial,  100 people at most, as few as 38 based on the rumor mill.     The vaccine is more likely ineffective rather than harmful, provided the viral vectors are non-replicating.   

Rumor = we don't really know.


Quote
Would you want to be one of the first subjects in a trial-by-fire development?

At the moment, I am comfortable with the low-risk infection risk situation here.  I will likely wait a bit regardless of where available vaccines comes from.
We have the luxury of choice, one not readily available in the US.

Quote
Hypocritical comment from someone advocating total lockdown.  What you call "ethical" is actually "health and safety."  In America,  given the exigency, we have already fast tracked our normal standards.   Russia has hyper tracked.    Would you want your wife to use her contacts to be vaccinated today?

Why hypocritical?  I simply stated that RU and maybe some other countries may be able to bypass some ethical considerations such as intentionally infecting 'volunteers' that have been vaccinated.  Others following standard protocols would have to let this occur naturally, without intent.  This can take some time for an adequate number of vaccinated folks to get infected as they shouldn't be trying to get themselves infected.  Not knowing whether they received the vaccine or water will be a deterrent for intentional infections.

My wife is also in a very low infection risk area, but MIL in RU who is at higher risk with pre-existing conditions might want to get vaccinated quickly.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on August 12, 2020, 09:35:52 AM
“For a guy claiming to be wealthy and having criminal connections you still don't know how to bribe someone for whatever paperwork you need without being a human Guinea pig? Fascinating.RIP geezer.”



the commutative property of money
if time is money
money is also time

I’m buying time, so my daughter can go through with her wedding in a few months in Moscow and I can attend and we can do so with the lowest covid-19 risk by getting a vaccine
looking at probabilities, I picked the optimal path
that doesn’t use $$$ as a critical resource

if you guys are nice to me and say flattering things about me...
well it MIGHT prompt me to show you some REALLY interesting pictures from Russia....
I value originality and sincerity...

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 12, 2020, 09:42:04 AM

Philippine President Rodrigo Duterte has volunteered the Filipino people to test out the new Russian vaccine with himself to be the first taking the vaccine. Philippines will enter an agreement with Moscow to test, produce and supply the vaccine.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/philippines-duterte-says-russia-vaccine-093309483.html

The Philippines in 2016 was the first nation to use dengue vaccine Dengvaxia in a mass programme, but a botched rollout led to claims several dozen children had died after being vaccinated.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 12, 2020, 11:49:20 AM
Rumor = we don't really know.


If we don't know, why trust it?   

This vaccine info is from the same news agency who gave us reasons other than a Buk for the downing of MH17. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on August 12, 2020, 12:02:21 PM
"Buk for the downing of MH17"

how can Russia be considered the culpable party, when the event happened in Ukraine and NOT Russia?
if a plane was shot down in Canada, would you blame the USA?
this is fake news spread by liberal news media
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 12, 2020, 01:12:49 PM

this is fake news spread by liberal news media

No.  This is the findings of a 6-year scientific investigation conducted by the joint team of Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and Ukraine.   Three suspects from Russia and one from Ukraine have been identified as responsible for downing the plane.  Their absentia trial is underway. 

Here is an interesting video with your hero Putin saying what you just wrote. 

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/60-minutes-producer-henry-schuster-explains-the-evolution-of-the-story-on-mh17/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on August 12, 2020, 01:39:09 PM
"Here is an interesting video with your hero Putin saying what you just wrote."

he's more than MY HERO, he's my "bolshoi poppa"
my big daddy
you live with your heroes and I will live with mine...
mine will be remembered as the greatest Russian in the last 100 years..
how will yours be remembered?


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 12, 2020, 03:47:09 PM

how will yours be remembered?

Being a Tennessee lad,  my hero was Davy Crockett.  And I guess  if I were the same age today living in Russia, I would consider Putin my hero.    ;D 

Suffice it to say at an early age I grew out of devoted admiration of people I didn't know.   

True confession, there were more than Davy Crockett.   I progressed to Tennesseans Nathan Bedford Forrest and Cordell Hull.  Moved to North Carolina, changed to Billy Graham, then spent the rest of my life enchanted more by women.   Whom did you expect me to name, Anwar Sadat? 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on August 12, 2020, 04:08:57 PM
Davy Crocket is LONG GONE my friend
take a look at the 18 yr olds today...
what kinda future do you think THIS generation is going to create
what kind?
one with a MUCH LOWER standard of living than today’s...

the living standard in the USA is LOWER today than it was a generation ago
and it will be MUCH, MUCH lower a generation from now, based on the expected rate of productivity of today’s 18 yr olds, most of em are gonna be lucky just to be able to feed themselves a few years from now, let alone make ANY kind of social contribution...

there will be little manufacturing left
no restaurants, salons,
no travel, hotels
commercial aircraft orders
1/3 of all retail stores will be bankrupt in a couple of months

american business has been crippled by paying hundreds of billions in tariffs and is losing the trade war with China
businesses pay for the  tariffs out of their profits as well as raising prices

now businesses have to pay various penalties for Corona
depending on the nature of their business
for some businesses the Corona penalty is 100%

every week, over a million new people apply for unemployment

prices on bonds have collapsed, while the prices on gold, silver, bitcoin have SKYROCKETED!

meanwhile Rednecks, do not loose heart, no...
for I bear GOOD NEWS!!!

for only $30 you can apply for a class 6 FFL License
and it is $30 to renew

and you can make and SELL ammunition...
my Dillon press is good for 800 rounds per hour
but if I can build sales, I can get a commercial reloading 5500 rounds per hour machine...

then I will get a high end bullet swager to get that kinda volume
and swage my own high performance bullets

I can easily make  50 cents per round profit, probably much more...
think about that with a 5500 round per hour machine means!!

I will specialize in very light weight hollow point +P rounds in more common calibers
for example a 70 grain 38 special hollow point, that has a velocity of 1,800 fps out of a 2 inch barrel
the challenge for this bullet was to get a bullet with such light weight to NOT disintegrate on impact, but to expand and STILL exit exit either a head or straight on torso shot
out of a 2" 38 a bullet like this can have OVER 400 ft lbs which is pretty impressive for such a small sized pistol!






Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on August 12, 2020, 04:30:59 PM


the living standard in the USA is LOWER today than it was a generation ago
and it will be MUCH, MUCH lower a generation from now, based on the expected rate of productivity of today’s 18 yr olds, most of em are gonna be lucky just to be able to feed themselves a few years from now, let alone make ANY kind of social contribution...

there will be little manufacturing left
no restaurants, salons,
no travel, hotels
commercial aircraft orders
1/3 of all retail stores will be bankrupt in a couple of months

american business has been crippled by paying hundreds of billions in tariffs and is losing the trade war with China
businesses pay for the  tariffs out of their profits as well as raising prices
 
The American standard of living has taken a large hi during the trump era, from underwear to my favorite cookies, I don't have the same choices I did 2 years ago.  Some of it is trump's fault, other parts are not.  Our national debt is getting so unbelievably bad that I question how much longer the music can play. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 12, 2020, 11:09:21 PM

My wife's uncle in Ukraine has COVID. He's from a smaller town and he's the worst condition of all the patients in the hospital. They don't have ventilators. Lungs full of liquid so they put him on his stomach and give him oxygen. Socialized health care means he doesn't get medicine but what they recommend costs $140 a day. My Mother in Law buys what she can for him. MIL wants to transfer him to a better hospital but the hospital in Ivano Frankivsk is full too. Only way to get him a bed in a better hospital is to bribe doctors when one is available. I bet she's not the only one trying to bribe doctors.

If you look at Ukraine's COVID numbers, it doesn't look so bad but hospitals are full. A lot of countries are deceptive about their numbers.

http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/ukraine/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 12, 2020, 11:12:26 PM
If we don't know, why trust it?   

Considering His disastrous record handling the coronavirus should we trust Trump?  Really?

Do you really believe a vaccine will be available on election day?  Maybe set up immunization stands at polling places with little round 'Saved by Trump' stickers?

If Trump were given the choice of releasing a vaccine today, without phase 3 trials he would do so in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 13, 2020, 06:11:45 AM

Davy Crocket is LONG GONE my friend.


When Davy was my hero, we did not own a TV in our small town.    My girlfriend's family down the street had a TV and a 20-ft antennae for fuzzy reception, and the  kids in the neighborhood piled in every afternoon to watch Howdy Doody.    Disney's Davy Crockett series came later. 

Little did anyone realize that the world created by Brenton Woods and American business had opened up a run of prosperity and unimaginable innovation.  The good life did not unroll in a straight line , e. g.,  that girl friend with the TV became infected with polio. 

That was two generations ago, as my granddaughter is now about my age ...somewhat longer than two generations considering both my son and I were were older than the average age for new fathers. 

A generation after Davy Crockett and Howdy Doody, most of the world was speaking English, not because of some British legacy, not because of the US government, but because of the international success of American business. 

Change is constant.   Americans started buying Japanese cars, and with that Detroit started to decline.   The tech boom came along and created new opportunities for prosperity.  I succeeded in business beyond my wildest dreams. Government grew too.   

Quote
take a look at the 18 yr olds today...
what kinda future do you think THIS generation is going to create

Its up to them.   What is different today than when I was 18, and my son was 18?   

    -  Today's 18-yo  have the same idealism I had, except their idealism is more in the form of idealistic contempt. 
    -  I contend they have been coddled more than other generations.   
    -  The world does not belong to American business.
    -  America is shifting to the left, which is to say it is focusing inwardly.

That latter point needs to be changed.  The critical battle is not within America, but our position in the world.  America first.  To the contrary, I assert a  Democrat sweep in November will be debilitating.     

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 13, 2020, 06:14:31 AM
Considering His disastrous record handling the coronavirus should we trust Trump?  Really?

Political rhetoric intended to deflect.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on August 13, 2020, 06:29:22 AM

   
    -  The world does not belong to American business.
    -  America is shifting to the left, which is to say it is focusing inwardly.

That latter point needs to be changed.  The critical battle is not within America, but our position in the world.  America first.  To the contrary, I assert a  Democrat sweep in November will be debilitating.     
The US is moving to the left for the most part.   

If we are forced to compete on a more level playing field in business we are going to be in trouble.  Our foreign policy often is designed to give us a huge and often unfair advantage over other nations.  Despite this, we are losing ground.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on August 13, 2020, 07:41:41 AM
America's rise to be a super power was a by-product of WWII...
the world has changed since then

we don't NEED to be the world's super power
we can easily be THE regional power in the Western Hemisphere
let China have the rest, no need to fight them for it, let em have it

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on August 13, 2020, 07:54:40 AM
The US is moving to the left for the most part.   

If we are forced to compete on a more level playing field in business we are going to be in trouble.  Our foreign policy often is designed to give us a huge and often unfair advantage over other nations.  Despite this, we are losing ground.

Fathertime!

Moving left is towards totalitarian government, moving right is throwing off tyranny.

2tallbill can correct you on terminology.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on August 13, 2020, 07:56:50 AM
Considering His disastrous record handling the coronavirus should we trust Trump?  Really?

Do you really believe a vaccine will be available on election day?  Maybe set up immunization stands at polling places with little round 'Saved by Trump' stickers?

If Trump were given the choice of releasing a vaccine today, without phase 3 trials he would do so in a heartbeat.

Fake news, false narrative.

Trump was called a "ray cist" because he wisely stopped flights from China.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on August 13, 2020, 09:41:56 AM
Moving left is towards totalitarian government, moving right is throwing off tyranny.

The people's attitudes are more left than they used to be.  the government doesn't seem much different. 

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 13, 2020, 12:13:32 PM

Change in plans folks. After the Filipino Food and Drug Administration reviewed the newly released Russian vaccine, The president decided he won't take it first but take in next year in May after they do a phase 3 trail on it among the Filipino people. Phase 3 should  should be completed in April.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/duterte-skip-philippine-trial-russia-092348187.html


41% of Americans have depression due to pandemic. For those who want to tell everybody to sit home and hide, you're going to mess up the lives of the living just to prevent a few deaths.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-is-devastating-americans-mental-health-cdc-says-170026332.html

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 13, 2020, 03:03:52 PM
Change in plans folks. After the Filipino Food and Drug Administration reviewed the newly released Russian vaccine, The president decided he won't take it first but take in next year in May after they do a phase 3 trail on it among the Filipino people. Phase 3 should  should be completed in April.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/duterte-skip-philippine-trial-russia-092348187.html


41% of Americans have depression due to pandemic. For those who want to tell everybody to sit home and hide, you're going to mess up the lives of the living just to prevent a few deaths.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-is-devastating-americans-mental-health-cdc-says-170026332.html

Any idea how things are going in Ukraine Billy?

The official stats reckon virus numbers have increased to around 1500 cases per day now.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 14, 2020, 10:08:03 AM
Any idea how things are going in Ukraine Billy?

The official stats reckon virus numbers have increased to around 1500 cases per day now.

America has 7.5 times the population of Ukraine yet we have 125 times the amount of people in serious or critical condition due to COVID based on the data for nations below. America's hospitals aren't overloaded but Ukraine's hospitals don't have any room to take COVID patients, at least from my MIL's observation of Western Ukraine's hospitals.

http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

A lot of governments are massively lying about the conditions within their nation. Even America under reports but not intentionally. Historians will estimate the death toll of COVID-19 not based on data supplied by governments but based on expected death toll and how much the world has gone over that expected amount.

http://finance.yahoo.com/m/170d7b1c-806c-3001-a8c2-34620a02803d/the-‘excess-deaths’-tally-in.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on August 14, 2020, 10:39:25 AM
Thoughts?

http://thenationalpulse.com/news/un-expert-says-covid-19-bioweapon/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 14, 2020, 11:33:35 AM
Thoughts?

http://thenationalpulse.com/news/un-expert-says-covid-19-bioweapon/

Why not? Many nations do have biological weapons programs. Some pathogens have escaped in the past so why not again? Chinese labs allowed SARS to escape at least 6 times since it showed up on earth in 2002.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 14, 2020, 12:01:16 PM
America has 7.5 times the population of Ukraine yet we have 125 times the amount of people in serious or critical condition due to COVID based on the data for nations below. America's hospitals aren't overloaded but Ukraine's hospitals don't have any room to take COVID patients, at least from my MIL's observation of Western Ukraine's hospitals.

http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

A lot of governments are massively lying about the conditions within their nation. Even America under reports but not intentionally. Historians will estimate the death toll of COVID-19 not based on data supplied by governments but based on expected death toll and how much the world has gone over that expected amount.

http://finance.yahoo.com/m/170d7b1c-806c-3001-a8c2-34620a02803d/the-‘excess-deaths’-tally-in.html

How come this info isn't getting out into the online news sites. Surely if hospitals are packed out with Covid cases in Ukraine some news of it would get through?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 14, 2020, 09:07:47 PM
How come this info isn't getting out into the online news sites. Surely if hospitals are packed out with Covid cases in Ukraine some news of it would get through?

I believe the media is more free in Ukraine than Russia but I do know there's questionable reporting by the doctors.  Although my wife's uncle has COVID, the cheap notoriously inaccurate made in China test kit they gave him said he was negative so he is not counted in nationwide count for cases.

Worldwide, I suspect there's a lot of national pride among medical workers and pressure for politicians to manipulate the numbers to protect their image and keep their jobs. Other times medical workers keep quiet otherwise they may fall out of windows like what happened in Russia. Nobody ever seems lucky enough to fall out of the 1st story window of a building.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on August 15, 2020, 04:47:18 PM
I believe the media is more free in Ukraine than Russia but I do know there's questionable reporting by the doctors.  Although my wife's uncle has COVID, the cheap notoriously inaccurate made in China test kit they gave him said he was negative so he is not counted in nationwide count for cases.

Worldwide, I suspect there's a lot of national pride among medical workers and pressure for politicians to manipulate the numbers to protect their image and keep their jobs. Other times medical workers keep quiet otherwise they may fall out of windows like what happened in Russia. Nobody ever seems lucky enough to fall out of the 1st story window of a building.

Lol, that's funny Billy. I saw that an Olympic ice skater girl recently fell out of a window, I think she may have opened her mouth and criticised the regime. Anyway it was the end of her, seems that they have no scruples over how far they will go.

Well the 'official' Covid figures are up to around 1500 today so the official trend is upward. If the situation is even worse on the ground like you say Billy then they must be getting into a bit of a state out there. Surely it will all break out into the open soon as usually a real bad state is difficult to hush up for long. I'm guessing their mortality rate for Covid is also a lot higher than they state. Would be handy to see some more on the ground info. Think myself I will have to steer clear for the time being the prospect of ending up in some Ukrainian hospital with it is not an enticing one.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on August 16, 2020, 06:08:25 PM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/mrz081620dAPR20200815034509.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 17, 2020, 07:48:13 PM
HERD IMMUNITY IS REAL

We all expect by the beginning of 2021 a safe vaccine or two or more will become available.  Effectiveness will be an issue.  As an alternative to a vaccine, albeit an undesirable alternative,  the COVID pandemic can be reduced to an endemic level if enough people become infected, i. e. herd immunity. 

It was originally thought that herd immunity would require infection of 70 percent of the population.  NY Times is reporting that scientists now believe "herd immunity probably lies from 45 percent to 50 percent" because people are not uniformly susceptible to the virus. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/17/health/coronavirus-herd-immunity.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20200817&instance_id=21332&nl=the-morning&regi_id=99411211&section_index=1&section_name=big_story&segment_id=36280&te=1&user_id=aac555ac0b5bc3dd685117e9d67533db

Considering the July and August high rates of new infections in the US and also the fact  that asymptomatic cases represent a high percentage of COVID infections, we may be closer to herd immunity than imaginable a short time ago.    It is believed such is already the case for some "pockets" of the world.  "In some clinics in hard-hit Brooklyn neighborhoods, up to 80 percent of people who were tested at the beginning of the summer had antibodies for the virus. Over the past eight weeks, fewer than 1 percent of people tested at those same neighborhood clinics have had the virus."  Something similar has been reported for Mumbai. 

If such is the case, the virus will be spreading more slowly in 2021 than what happened in early 2020.  Needless to say, we all prefer a safe, effective vaccine.  And who wants to live in Brooklyn?!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 17, 2020, 09:28:46 PM



Herd immunity will significantly decrease the chances of a major outbreak and allow us to live a more normal life temporarily. What we need is lifetime immunity. After the first round of vaccines are distributed, they will continue to work to find better vaccines.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on August 17, 2020, 10:20:05 PM

MN Governor Quietly Reverses Course on Hydroxychloroquine
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/08/17/mn_governor_quietly_reverses_course_on_hydroxychloroquine__143978.html


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 17, 2020, 11:19:59 PM
Scientists and others are still just guessing Gator.  We still have a lot to learn, much of which will be revealed by the trials going on.  The BIG question that remains:  How long does immunity last and can one become infected again?

We can't relax based on hopes and speculation.  The NYT article is very clear:

Quote
His model puts the threshold for herd immunity at 43 percent — that is, the virus cannot hang on in a community after that percentage of residents has been infected and recovered.

Still, that means many residents of the community will have been sickened or have died, a high price to pay for herd immunity. And experts like Dr. Hanage cautioned that even a community that may have reached herd immunity cannot afford to be complacent.



The virus may still flare up here and there, even if its overall spread is stymied. It’s also unclear how long someone who has recovered may be immune, and for how long.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 18, 2020, 12:18:51 AM


Herd immunity will significantly decrease the chances of a major outbreak and allow us to live a more normal life temporarily. What we need is lifetime immunity. After the first round of vaccines are distributed, they will continue to work to find better vaccines.

BillyB

Tell us us more about 'herd immunity'

Tell us how many folk in Sweden have antibodies present and how many had to die ?


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/17/swedens-covid-19-strategist-under-fire-over-herd-immunity-emails
 (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/17/swedens-covid-19-strategist-under-fire-over-herd-immunity-emails)
Sweden's Covid-19 strategist under fire over herd immunity emails

email exchanges obtained by Swedish journalists under freedom of information laws show Tegnell discussing herd immunity as an objective in mid-March, days after the World Health Organization declared Covid-19 a pandemic.

In one exchange, Tegnell forwarded to his Finnish counterpart, Mika Salminen, and the head of the Swedish national health agency, FHM, an email from a retired doctor suggesting one way of tackling the epidemic would be to allow healthy people to become infected voluntarily in controlled settings.


Authorities estimated that 40% of Stockholm’s population would have contracted Covid-19 by May, but national studies have found immunity to the virus remains relatively low and a study published last week in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine concluded herd immunity was “nowhere in sight”.


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 18, 2020, 12:24:16 AM
MN Governor Quietly Reverses Course on Hydroxychloroquine
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/08/17/mn_governor_quietly_reverses_course_on_hydroxychloroquine__143978.html

That you picked this up from a POLITICS website rather than a medical one speaks volumes ...

What is YOUR expertise on HCQ, Beel ...?


http://ard.bmj.com/content/early/2020/08/05/annrheumdis-2020-218500.abstract (http://ard.bmj.com/content/early/2020/08/05/annrheumdis-2020-218500.abstract)

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 18, 2020, 03:32:51 AM
http://www.newsmax.com/us/deborahbirx-italy-lockdown-covid-19/2020/08/17/id/982575/

Quote
Dr. Birx: I Wish US Had Locked Down 'Like Italy'

"But when Italy locked down, I mean, people were not allowed out of their houses. And they couldn't come out but once every two weeks to buy groceries for one hour. And they had to have a certificate that said they were allowed."

NB:  Certificates were required, they were self-certified certificates filled out by yourself (no official authorization needed) that simply stated that the trip into town was for 'necessary purposes' such as a critical job, shopping, pharmacy and doctor etc.  There were no 'once every two weeks' limits.  You could go shopping daily if needed.  We usually went one or two days per week to avoid contact.

I agree that the lockdown was quite restrictive, but looking back totally necessary to get to where we are today with low Rt, low positivity and saving many thousands of lives in the process.

Many I have spoken to here consider the sacrifices they made quite justified, especially when observing results and deaths in the US.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on August 18, 2020, 06:20:45 AM
What is YOUR expertise on HCQ, Beel ...?

I posted an article that I didn't write, without comment. You are not a
medical doctor and have no special qualifications. Go ahead and tell
everyone that you were the head of the CDC, nobody will listen.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 18, 2020, 07:48:56 AM
I posted an article that I didn't write, without comment. You are not a
medical doctor and have no special qualifications. Go ahead and tell
everyone that you were the head of the CDC, nobody will listen.

1/ I have a qualie that means I'm just as smart as any Doc on microbiology

2/ I have a daughter who has been taking HCQ for a use it actually has efficacy

3/ I have a micro-biologist as a biz partner and a medical professional ( retired surgeon) with experience in working in Congo, Ethiopia in epidemiology  and the Russian is a brilliant Mathematician who studied medicine , concurrently


Now that has dealt with MY CV, lets deal with your politically motivated ignorance ..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on August 18, 2020, 08:09:51 AM
1/ I have a qualie that means I'm just as smart as any Doc on microbiology


                 :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :rolleyes2:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on August 18, 2020, 08:11:21 AM
1/ I have a qualie that means I'm just as smart as any Doc on microbiology

2/ I have a daughter who has been taking HCQ for a use it actually has efficacy

3/ I have a micro-biologist as a biz partner and a medical professional ( retired surgeon) with experience in working in Congo, Ethiopia in epidemiology  and the Russian is a brilliant Mathematician who studied medicine , concurrently


Nobody cares, argumentum ad verecundiam

 

Ohio pharmacy board reverses hydroxychloroquine ban
The Ohio Board of Pharmacy on Thursday reversed its decision to ban sales
of the drug hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19 after feedback from the
medical community.
read the entire story here
http://www.pharmacist.com/article/ohio-pharmacy-board-reverses-hydroxychloroquine-ban
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 18, 2020, 08:39:32 AM
WOW! In the article:

~Prescribing hydroxychloroquine in the early stages of the virus is key, Risch said, and others agree. Steven Hatfill, a veteran virologist and adjunct assistant professor at the George Washington University Medical Center, says the literature supporting hydroxychloroquine is overwhelming. ~

Overwhelming!!!

Another eye-opener on the article:

~Hydroxychloroquine might be politically controversial, but that hasn’t stopped some of its critics from taking advantage of the drug. In a May interview, former presidential hopeful Sen. Amy Klobuchar admitted her husband was successfully treated with hydroxychloroquine, a medication she had mocked on Twitter. ~

Ironic, but good and funny nonetheless!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 18, 2020, 08:57:22 AM
Dr. Birx: I Wish US Had Locked Down 'Like Italy'

I saw that clip. BC, you failed her subsequent and equally important statement.

Quote
   “Americans don’t react well to that kind of prohibition.”


Therein lies the rub.  State governments closed non-essential activities, yet  did not do an "Italy."  Nor did the Federal government pass legislation mandating an "Italy." 

The American approach depended much on voluntary compliance.   I assert most Americans voluntarily followed the health guidelines. 

My Household. In my household, I continued to shop for essentials and to play golf adhering to safe protocols.  My wife stayed home, and my stepson continued to work at a deli counter.  His university classes were conducted online, and he had nil social contacts outside the family.   Contractors coming to our house followed guidelines.  We went to two restaurants (outdoors) after they reopened and a short string of other services such as auto repair and medical facilities.         

Working Americans. Most Americans needed to work, and worked they did to support their families.  My son with four mouths to feed is a real estate appraiser, and everyday he inspected 2-3 occupied homes as part of helping them refinance at attractive low interest rates.  He refused to enter two suspicious houses.   My other son who makes films shut down, and went on the parental and governmental dole.  My stepdaughter and her husband continued to work a hectic schedule to keep their booming private company afloat, interacting carefully with customers, employees,  and others everyday.   

Careless Americans.  Many Americans were less careful, especially the young who wanted social experiences.  Cinemas and bars were closed, yet they created other venues for socializing.  Some of it was illegal such as looting and violent protests, yet the law was not enforced. Do you adhere to the Democrat line that this was Trump's fault? 

Government Mistakes. Some state governments  made mistakes.  Several red states reopened too soon.  Yet more grievous were decisions such as New York's to return COVID patients to their nursing homes rather than use hospitals provided by Trump. Do you adhere to the Democrat line that this was Trump's fault?

Quote
Many I have spoken to here consider the sacrifices they made quite justified, especially when observing results and deaths in the US.

It is still too early to calculate a final tally.  The tally is not just a sum of deaths per million citizens.  It must include economic losses and indirect losses.   

Would I personally have done anything different knowing then what I know today?  Nothing significant.  Only 2.3% of my county have been infected, and of those less than 1.4% died.  That's less than 3,000::1 odds of death.   At my age, death by heart disease or cancer is much more likely.   

Meanwhile we are getting closer to a vaccine.  Failing that, herd immunity is closer too. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 18, 2020, 09:02:00 AM
~Prescribing hydroxychloroquine in the early stages of the virus is key, Risch said, and others agree.


HCQ doesn't work instantaneously. It takes time before it actually works. It's why Trump was taking it even when he wasn't infected. It's a gamble. If someone took HCQ early and got infected and their immune system wants to go into overdrive killing organs, then HCQ is great stuff and could save their life. But if a person was on HCQ and their immune system proved not strong enough to fight COVID, HCQ could increase their chances of dying. Nobody, including doctors knows how someone's immune system will react to COVID. It's a gamble when taking HCQ early.

It's okay if 2 States our of 50 want to reverse course due to political pressure. The link below has the current best candidates to use for treatments. Doctors in those two states need to consider them although they now have the option to give HCQ to a screaming patient and their family who demands it. Most likely an all new drug for treatment needs to be created for COVID like what was done for HIV. It may take decades to develop a successful drug.

http://www.bio.org/policy/human-health/vaccines-biodefense/coronavirus/pipeline-tracker
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 18, 2020, 09:15:10 AM
HCQ doesn't work instantaneously. It takes time before it actually works. It's why Trump was taking it even when he wasn't infected. It's a gamble. If someone took HCQ early and got infected and their immune system wants to go into overdrive killing organs, then HCQ is great stuff and could save their life. But if a person was on HCQ and their immune system proved not strong enough to fight COVID, HCQ could increase their chances of dying. Nobody, including doctors knows how someone's immune system will react to COVID. It's a gamble when taking HCQ early.

It's okay if 2 States our of 50 want to reverse course due to political medical pressure. The link below has the current best candidates to use for treatments. Doctors in those two states need to consider them although they now have the option to give HCQ to a screaming patient and their family who demands it. Most likely an all new drug for treatment needs to be created for COVID like what was done for HIV. It may take decades to develop a successful drug.

http://www.bio.org/policy/human-health/vaccines-biodefense/coronavirus/pipeline-tracker

I suspect Henry Ford Clinic haven't received anything from you, yes?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 18, 2020, 09:20:25 AM
I suspect Henry Ford Clinic haven't received anything from you, yes?

I'm still waiting for them to do the recommended trials they said were needed in their conclusion. I suspect they gave up on the project and are now testing other drugs that show more promise.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 18, 2020, 09:22:32 AM
I'm still waiting for them to do the recommended trials they said were needed in their conclusion. I suspect they gave up on the project and are now testing other drugs that show more promise.

Ahh! I knew it. There's a Filipino dessert called 'hollow-hollow', too.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 18, 2020, 09:25:49 AM
I saw that clip. BC, you failed her subsequent and equally important statement.

Quote
“Americans don’t react well to that kind of prohibition.”

Therein lies the rub.  State governments closed non-essential activities, yet  did not do an "Italy."  Nor did the Federal government pass legislation mandating an "Italy." 

The American approach depended much on voluntary compliance.   I assert most Americans voluntarily followed the health guidelines. 


Yes, I saw that part of her interview, your comment 'unruly' came to mind.  Had most Americans and states followed the published reopening guidelines a lot of grief may have been avoided.

I still assert that a relatively short 45-day lockdown followed by a mandated pre-planned reopening phase would have allowed for a faster and more robust recovery without costly interruptions and rollbacks.  It is obvious that the patchwork approach (first attempted here in Italy) did not work.  Whereas Europe is in recovery mode with folks pretty much back to work as usual, the US has still a long way to go to stabilize and possibly additional crisis as well with rents and mortgages and health bills, and etc etc.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-nyt-europe-unemployment-rate-covid-19-20200704-ihuzdo2kbngdxjnoxqxymejhj4-story.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on August 18, 2020, 09:39:04 AM
I still assert that a relatively short 45-day lockdown followed by a mandated
pre-planned reopening phase would have allowed for a faster and more robust
recovery without costly interruptions and rollbacks. 

It is obvious that the patchwork approach (first attempted here in Italy) did not work.

I really think that's the best that we can do with 50 different States with 50 different
governors and state legislatures involved. The USA is 32 and a half times the size of
Italy.

It would be impossible to mandate a one size fits all reopening with that many politicians
and egos involved. The governors know their local situation better than any federal
agency or official and some of them wouldn't do anything that a Trump administration
had a hand in.

Lastly, our constitution doesn't allow the government to force people to do all the
same things that Italy can do to their citizens.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 18, 2020, 10:13:28 AM

Had most Americans and states followed the published reopening guidelines a lot of grief may have been avoided.


I was out and about.  In my neighborhood, "most Americans" were following the guidelines in stores, doctor offices, etc. 

My family other than my wife worked and saw more than me, and they say most everyone followed guidelines   such as wearing masks inside stores.     There were exceptions, and the exceptions standout, and are concerning.   

What do they show on your internet news or Italy TV?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 18, 2020, 11:32:41 AM
What do they show on your internet news or Italy TV?

Same thing every day.  The numbers of new infections and deaths, progress reports by region, new clusters located, imported cases.  Today about why testing at one airport in Milan is behind testing being done at Rome arrivals and that all school teachers will get serological tests before school starts. 470 tourists quarantined in Sardinia at a tourist residence after one of the staff tested positive, some tried to run to the airport and were stopped.  12 in the Rome area tested positive after a party in Sardinia. Other smaller groups quarantined other places after folks tested positive.  Testing, tracking and tracing are working.  That's about it for today.

My son and GF flew down for a couple of weeks.  On arrival back in Germany got free tests at the airport and negative results in 24 hours. 

Is free testing being offered/performed at US airports?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 18, 2020, 11:47:44 AM
I really think that's the best that we can do with 50 different States with 50 different
governors and state legislatures involved. The USA is 32 and a half times the size of
Italy.

Italy has 20 regions, a quarter of which are autonomous.  Still, they worked together in concert.

Quote
It would be impossible to mandate a one size fits all reopening with that many politicians
and egos involved. The governors know their local situation better than any federal
agency or official and some of them wouldn't do anything that a Trump administration
had a hand in.

Yeah, that would require true leadership.

Quote
Lastly, our constitution doesn't allow the government to force people to do all the
same things that Italy can do to their citizens.

Sure about that?

Quote
Under section 361 of the Public Health Service Act (42 U.S. Code § 264), the U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services is authorized to take measures to prevent the entry and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States and between states.

Not much different than was done here.  One could not leave their region of residence without good cause.  Regions (our states) further limited movement for a time to your home city.  Governors would likely have similar powers.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 18, 2020, 12:10:08 PM
12 in the Rome area tested positive after a party in Sardinia.

12! Wow!

One week into the semester, and 139 UNC-Chapel Hill (yes the Tar Heels) students tested positive. The outbreak essentially occurred in four clusters (5 or more):  two residence halls, one a private apartment that houses students, and a fraternity house.   UNC announced it is transitioning all undergraduate classes to fully online instruction.

Kids!

Quote
Is free testing being offered/performed at US airports?

I haven't seen an airport in 6+ months.  Are they open?   ;D

We drive to our holidays these days, 8 1/2  hours to NC mountains to escape the Florida summer.  In recent years we went farther north to better NC mountains,  or to the Rocky Mountains, or to Maine, or Santa Fe... all involved getting on a plane.  Life has changed.  We did not go to friend's wedding.  Family and friends from Russia are absent. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 18, 2020, 12:29:57 PM
Italy has 20 regions, a quarter of which are autonomous.  Still, they worked together in concert. 

But you are not in a civil war between "conservative volunteer government and a leftist professional government."

Yes, we have a civil war because the losing party refused to accept the 2016 election results.  That losing party believes the only legitimate exercise of power in this country is its own.  That party has continued to obstruct legitimate executive power through actions of partisan Federal judges, or agents deeply embedded as bureaucrats, or states exercising powers they never were allowed to use in the past, or a chamber of legislature stonewalling.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 18, 2020, 01:28:30 PM
That losing party believes the only legitimate exercise of power in this country is its own.  That party has continued to obstruct legitimate executive power through actions of partisan Federal judges, or agents deeply embedded as bureaucrats, or states exercising powers they never were allowed to use in the past, or a chamber of legislature stonewalling.

Funny.. I've heard pretty much the same story from both sides.  Guess it depends on who has the winning hand at the moment. It is pretty amazing our form of democracy has held up until now.  We'll all eventually get tired of the political gaming, finish ripping up the Constitution and start a civil war.  We're well along the path now.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 18, 2020, 01:36:30 PM
I really think that's the best that we can do with 50 different States with 50 different
governors and state legislatures involved. The USA is 32 and a half times the size of
Italy.

It would be impossible to mandate a one size fits all reopening with that many politicians
and egos involved. The governors know their local situation better than any federal
agency or official and some of them wouldn't do anything that a Trump administration
had a hand in.


Lastly, our constitution doesn't allow the government to force people to do all the
same things that Italy can do to their citizens.

Agree completely. A good example is Gov. Cuomo. Touted as being a governor that exercised great leadership but look at what the actual toll under his watch? Not to mention having over 6,000 deaths attributed to his mandate alone. He's suppose to write a book about leadership and the fight against COVID-19! LMAO! NY has 33,000 dead! It's gotta one of those W-T-F moment, man.

California is on the 'rise', and boast as the top state with the greatest # of infection. This, despite Gov. Newsom being able to govern his State 'free' from any demands or intervention from the WH or any federal agency.

To keep politicizing a novel virus is just plain silly.

One thing I can say however with California, we have 3 times the infection Italy has, yet with 3 times less fatality. Does this mean anything to anyone? Maybe like Italians are a bunch weaklings/sissies? Or, maybe this clearly means their Socialize health system is in reality shoddy? Or, maybe their government is the world's worst form of governing? Disorganize society? Maybe all of the above?

So far, despite the much higher rate of infection, No Californians have to fear our medical systems will play god and choose on who gets to live or die like they did in Italy.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 18, 2020, 02:25:17 PM
Funny.. I've heard pretty much the same story from both sides. 

Not funny. 

The idiot Ted Cruz shut down the government.   Other than that, nothing matches: an "insurance policy," Mueller Investigation,  Impeachment, investigation after investigation,....  What if Trump weaponized the IRS, unmasked his opposition, prompted FBI investigations, decreed by executive order actions against the law, ....

Why bother.  In my opinion the Democrat leadership is so corrupt to match a dictatorship.  I guess you believe they are saints.  Or,  worse, entitled to any dirty trick to unseat someone who dared to speak for people thought by you to be in the basket of deplorables. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 18, 2020, 02:29:27 PM

I haven't seen an airport in 6+ months.  Are they open?   ;D


Here it's getting close to midnight...

(http://i.postimg.cc/zvsRxG7Y/Screen-Shot-2020-08-18-at-22-33-14.png)

If there was a good motive I wouldn't be too worried about catching a flight to Germany or a couple other countries.  Quite safe nowadays.  Sadly, still not safe enough to catch a flight to the US, not even to be with mom and bury dad.  Yeah, pisses me off a bit when I watch videos of folks back home fighting and arguing over masks in stores. Trump and far too many of my fellow citizens do not have my back, nor the backs of more than a thousand that will die just today, along with tens of thousands more that will test positive today, and tomorrow and the next...

Didn't have to be this way.  Our 'exceptionalism' keeps killing us and we're too stupid to do anything about it.  But yeah.. keep the economy going with coffin sales and funeral services.  Huge bizness nowadays with bodies falling out of the sky...  Squeeze every drop of sweat out of our healthcare workers and for heavens sake make sure we'll pay 10 times more for a vaccine when it's available.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 18, 2020, 03:22:53 PM

One thing I can say however with California, we have 3 times the infection Italy has, yet with 3 times less fatality. Does this mean anything to anyone? Maybe like Italians are a bunch weaklings/sissies? Or, maybe this clearly means their Socialize health system is in reality shoddy? Or, maybe their government is the world's worst form of governing? Disorganize society? Maybe all of the above?

So far, despite the much higher rate of infection, No Californians have to fear our medical systems will play god and choose on who gets to live or die like they did in Italy.

And despite how terrible it was in Italy, 13 US states so far have higher deaths per million than Italy and total US deaths per million will exceed that of Italy very likely within the next month or so.  Shame on us Americans.

To put things further into perspective for you, the last time Italy had 100 deaths per day is back in May.  California has been averaging 100 deaths per day for over a month now and still going strong.  Splendid, doing great, much better, fantastic.... whatever...  Really something to be proud of.  Congrats!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 18, 2020, 03:36:29 PM
Ironic.

You actually missed the gist of what you quoted from my post. California will never, can never, allow a situation - no matter how dire - to wheel one ill patient in a separate room and ignore him/her to die so one can live. How comforting to know that's your system, no? Can you just imagine the how the families behind the unlucky one must've felt? Or did they even know, OMG?! One can only hope they at least euthanized those folks. But it's Italy, so one never knows in Utopia...

Smugness is as smugness does, eh?

So no matter what you say or do from here on in...that silly and sad reality prevails over any. How's that for 'perspective'?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 19, 2020, 12:29:11 AM
GQ,

No, I did not miss your 'response of last resort' which you seem to keep bringing up again and again when left without a reasonable response.  I also see you now qualify your statement for California which may well be true and valid.  Ok, doctors in California reportedly did not have to make difficult choices.  Ask yourself why.  The answer is that California was one of the first states able to implement mitigation and stay at home based on what was happening elsewhere.  Orders you complained about and IIRC ridiculed.  Places like Italy and NY did not have such luxury and were overloaded with very sick folks lining up at hospitals.

Physicians have to make difficult choices even without crisis situations. It is a sad part of their job, like deciding which patient needing a transplant gets an available organ while others die. Even whether or not a candidate is expected to benefit from advanced treatments. If a piece of equipment like a ventilator is not available these same tough choices have to be made and the 30 some year old will receive treatment instead of the 94-year-old.  Some patients were put on ECMO when they did not respond well with ventilators.  The same type of choices had to be made as to who would best benefit from these rare devices.  Everyone that was not helped by ventilators was not put on ECMO as a last resort. There simply were not enough of them and folks to perform and monitor all patients.

But lets take something even more simple... How many doctors, nurses, first responders and other healthcare professionals died due to lack of masks and other PPE and how many non covid patients died because they got infected in the hospital?  I guess California did not have such cases either.

One thing I am very confident of is that doctors and nurses in every corner of the planet are doing their very best for their patients with the resources they have available, even risking their own lives doing so.  They are certainly not deserving of your boasting critique.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 19, 2020, 06:38:31 AM
Places like Italy and NY did not have such luxury and were overloaded with very sick folks lining up at hospitals.

IIRC, COVID cases never exceeded New York's hospital capacity.   In March as COVID cases surged, New York determined hospital capacity and respirators would have a critical shortfall.   Trump administration augmented both hospital and respirators.    The US Navy provided a hospital ship.   And the US Corps of Engineers erected four new hospitals such as the two week conversion of the Javits center to 2500 beds,  manned by the NY National Guard.  Originally intended to treat non-Covid cases, these new hospitals went unused because non-COVID cases (gunshot wounds, heart attacks, ...) had declined.

The Javits Center was quickly dedicated to COVID cases, yet still went mostly unused.  One reason, many convalescing COVID patients were sent home from hospitals, which for many was a nursing home.  The nursing homes became "Petri dishes" for infection, and it is reported 6000 seniors soon died.   

The situation for respirators was similar.   Sometimes in our zeal to condemn Trump, we forget what his team accomplished. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 19, 2020, 08:12:15 AM
GQ,

No, I did not miss your 'response of last resort' which you seem to keep bringing up again and again when left without a reasonable response.  I also see you now qualify your statement for California which may well be true and valid.  Ok, doctors in California reportedly did not have to make difficult choices.  Ask yourself why.  The answer is that California was one of the first states able to implement mitigation and stay at home based on what was happening elsewhere.  Orders you complained about and IIRC ridiculed.  Places like Italy and NY did not have such luxury and were overloaded with very sick folks lining up at hospitals.

Physicians have to make difficult choices even without crisis situations. It is a sad part of their job, like deciding which patient needing a transplant gets an available organ while others die. Even whether or not a candidate is expected to benefit from advanced treatments. If a piece of equipment like a ventilator is not available these same tough choices have to be made and the 30 some year old will receive treatment instead of the 94-year-old.  Some patients were put on ECMO when they did not respond well with ventilators.  The same type of choices had to be made as to who would best benefit from these rare devices.  Everyone that was not helped by ventilators was not put on ECMO as a last resort. There simply were not enough of them and folks to perform and monitor all patients.

But lets take something even more simple... How many doctors, nurses, first responders and other healthcare professionals died due to lack of masks and other PPE and how many non covid patients died because they got infected in the hospital?  I guess California did not have such cases either.

One thing I am very confident of is that doctors and nurses in every corner of the planet are doing their very best for their patients with the resources they have available, even risking their own lives doing so.  They are certainly not deserving of your boasting critique.

Reasonable?!? Hmmm. Ironic.

You are so lost and blinded by the result of 2016 election you've lost the capability to put things in *proper perspective*. I previously warned you to prepare yourself in the event Trump wins this election, too.

This virus struck every corner of our globe. No one country was spared of its attack. Each country however was not dealt in the same way. Despite that, you get this jingle in your bawls everyday trying to politicize this pandemic for some really weird, oddball reasons sitting your booty in Italy.

No country, no state was struck by the virus in the exact same fashion. It isn't because of any other reason than the fact each country bear a society differently from others. Just as they are in the contiguous 48 + 2 plus 5 territories. To state this fact, no other country resorted to dispose of the victims of this virus the same way Italy did with theirs. Not one. Get it?

I often wondered how can someone *allegedly* happy where he is, with all the alleged advantages he's surrounded himself with - be so consumed how bad somewhere is because of blah, blah, blah.

Dude, only UNHAPPY people carry the same disposition as you. Wanna share something with us and 'fess up?

Cases in Italy will differ with cases in California, in Burma, in Rio, in Manila, in Stockholm, and most especially in the United States of Trump's America.

DEAL WITH IT.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: krimster2 on August 19, 2020, 08:48:16 AM
people...
people who are unhappy
are the UNHAPPIEST PEOPLE
to me...

they can only reach out
by first letting go

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 19, 2020, 10:11:46 AM
  Sometimes in our zeal to condemn Trump, we forget what his team accomplished.

Reasonable?!? Hmmm. Ironic.

You are so lost and blinded by the result of 2016 election you've lost the capability to put things in *proper perspective*. I previously warned you to prepare yourself in the event Trump wins this election, too.


Isn't it interesting that none of my posts the last two pages criticized Trump.

Guess it's a sensitive matter for some LOL

GQ

Coronavirus is coronavirus, humans are human, and cases are cases... the virus does not care.  I am addressing how different countries addressed the virus crisis and their respective results.  If you can't take critique or respond in kind that's fine. No skin off my back.  All's well and safe here, thanks for asking.



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 19, 2020, 10:23:20 AM
Isn't it interesting that none of my posts the last two pages criticized Trump.

Guess it's a sensitive matter for some LOL

GQ

Coronavirus is coronavirus, humans are human, and cases are cases... the virus does not care.  I am addressing how different countries addressed the virus crisis and their respective results.  If you can't take critique or respond in kind that's fine. No skin off my back.  All's well and safe here, thanks for asking.

Critique? Tell that to the family of those 'unlucky Italians' that submitted themselves to your golden healthcare system. LMAO!

You're stuck on 1st gear, BC and gotten well beyond tedious.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 19, 2020, 12:20:33 PM
Isn't it interesting that none of my posts the last two pages criticized Trump.

Guess it's a sensitive matter for some LOL

Unlike you ignoring the history of NY COVID, we can not ignore your history.   

You realize you have four years of posts criticizing Trump.  At maybe 5 such posts per week, that's 1000 posts.  And the basis of your criticism typically boils down not to hard facts but your perceptions, tainted by the fact you despise Trump's persona.   Try finding a post where you said something good about Trump and COVID.  Let's open that to anything about Trump, not just NY. 

That's okay BC,  Cuomo forgot all about how he praised Trump for the immense help in NY's time of need.   If interested,  I can find you some clips of Cuomo revising history.   
 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on August 19, 2020, 01:12:27 PM
GQ,

I also see you now qualify your statement for California which may well be true and valid.  Ok, doctors in California reportedly did not have to make difficult choices.  Ask yourself why.  The answer is that California was one of the first states able to implement mitigation and stay at home based on what was happening elsewhere. 

California had corona before the rest of the USA and it floating around, people
were getting sick from it as early as January, but they thought they just had
the flu. California has double the Chinese population of New York.

So when it got big in New York and they started calling it the Chinese Wuhan
Covid19 a lot of people already caught it and recovered from it.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on August 19, 2020, 01:16:38 PM
HERD IMMUNITY IS REAL

We all expect by the beginning of 2021 a safe vaccine or two or more will become available.  Effectiveness will be an issue.  As an alternative to a vaccine, albeit an undesirable alternative,  the COVID pandemic can be reduced to an endemic level if enough people become infected, i. e. herd immunity. 

It was originally thought that herd immunity would require infection of 70 percent of the population.  NY Times is reporting that scientists now believe "herd immunity probably lies from 45 percent to 50 percent" because people are not uniformly susceptible to the virus. 

http://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/17/health/coronavirus-herd-immunity.html?campaign_id=9&emc=edit_nn_20200817&instance_id=21332&nl=the-morning&regi_id=99411211&section_index=1&section_name=big_story&segment_id=36280&te=1&user_id=aac555ac0b5bc3dd685117e9d67533db

Considering the July and August high rates of new infections in the US and also the fact  that asymptomatic cases represent a high percentage of COVID infections, we may be closer to herd immunity than imaginable a short time ago.    It is believed such is already the case for some "pockets" of the world.  "In some clinics in hard-hit Brooklyn neighborhoods, up to 80 percent of people who were tested at the beginning of the summer had antibodies for the virus. Over the past eight weeks, fewer than 1 percent of people tested at those same neighborhood clinics have had the virus."  Something similar has been reported for Mumbai. 

If such is the case, the virus will be spreading more slowly in 2021 than what happened in early 2020.  Needless to say, we all prefer a safe, effective vaccine.  And who wants to live in Brooklyn?!

That was an excellent post Gator. But let's break it all down a bit further. It's how I've been looking at it from it's inception anyway. The way we have handled all virus outbreaks and specifically corona virus outbreaks in the past was in fact herd immunity. No government mandated lock downs, no social distancing (which btw is unproven or even tested to actually stop or wean the spread of a virus. The idea was stolen from a kid at a science fair. look it up) no masks and no rushing to develop a vaccine. If you got it, you got it and most people did. With most viruses there was always at least some death associated with it. Some viruses had many deaths some had less. Herd immunity eventually caught up with the virus. Usually in a few months the death count declined. In the course of 12 months it was near dissipated altogether. Why the special attention for covid19?

It is a known fact that many of the corona viruses that have plagued the populations in the last 100 years and covid19 included is a man made virus. Covid 19 did not come from the Wuhan wet market. We know this now, why didn't someone tell us this from the beginning? The virus didn't morph from a bat in a cave to human. Nope, this virus was developed in a lab in Wuhan China.

Notwithstanding is the fact that our very own Dr. Fauci has been involved with this same specific lab for a number of years. Dr Fauci insured that the lab was the recipient of grants of 1.5 million dollars over what appears to be a 6 year period that was actually signed off by Obama himself. Why would Fauci and Obama have such an interest in this lab in Wuhan China?

One would think this particular virus has been politicized. But why this one? One could also easily come to the conclusion that the virus was developed for this purpose. Perhaps developed as a weapon or at least a tool. The globalists at Devos 2020 warned us this would be happening this year. How did they know? Well they probably heard it from Bill Gates and our own Dr. Fauci who, has been telling it to the world for the last several years. Those two happen to also be business partners.

The bottom line is this, the world wide death rate for covid19 is still .04%. Much less than previous viruses and influenza but, we have done so much more to combat it except what we used to combat all the others, herd immunity. The question all us layman need to be asking is why?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 19, 2020, 01:37:02 PM
Covid 19 did not come from the Wuhan wet market. We know this now, why didn't someone tell us this from the beginning? The virus didn't morph from a bat in a cave to human. Nope, this virus was developed in a lab in Wuhan China.


I've said from the beginning it was man was involved in making it. It wasn't found in a bat cave, pen of snakes or herd of camels because no animal on earth had it. China would've liquidated them. They were busy spreading propaganda and moving documents out of the Wuhan lab.

The bottom line is this, the world wide death rate for covid19 is still .04%. Much less than previous viruses and influenza but, we have done so much more to combat it except what we used to combat all the others, herd immunity. The question all us layman need to be asking is why?


SARS COV2 is the virus of the century. If we let it run loose without taking action against it, we'll have another NY or Italy. Other places had it worse but had less media attention. Although deaths have slowed down considerably, NY and NJ will easily have 1 out of every 500 of their citizens dead by the end of the year. The flu or swine flu can't come close to doing that.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 19, 2020, 01:44:41 PM
Unlike you ignoring the history of NY COVID, we can not ignore your history.   

The history of NY COVID is being ignored by some who wish to somehow exclude it as an aberration in US statistics, thus to be discounted.  I don't.  It would make no sense to exclude the COVID history of Lombardia either. 'If it weren't for NY and NJ, those rotten dem states we'd be smelling like roses!' or ' In my state bla bla bla'

No matter what I say or you say, the numbers can't be disputed.  Deaths per million will be the tale-teller of whether or not the US does better or worse fighting the virus than Italy, Chile, Sweden, UK or Spain.

No if and or buts.. instead pure indisputable fact using a common measuring stick.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 19, 2020, 02:15:44 PM
That was an excellent post Gator. But let's break it all down a bit further. It's how I've been looking at it from it's inception anyway. The way we have handled all virus outbreaks and specifically corona virus outbreaks in the past was in fact herd immunity. No government mandated lock downs, no social distancing (which btw is unproven or even tested to actually stop or wean the spread of a virus. The idea was stolen from a kid at a science fair. look it up) no masks and no rushing to develop a vaccine. If you got it, you got it and most people did. With most viruses there was always at least some death associated with it. Some viruses had many deaths some had less. Herd immunity eventually caught up with the virus. Usually in a few months the death count declined. In the course of 12 months it was near dissipated altogether. Why the special attention for covid19?

It is a known fact that many of the corona viruses that have plagued the populations in the last 100 years and covid19 included is a man made virus. Covid 19 did not come from the Wuhan wet market. We know this now, why didn't someone tell us this from the beginning? The virus didn't morph from a bat in a cave to human. Nope, this virus was developed in a lab in Wuhan China.

Notwithstanding is the fact that our very own Dr. Fauci has been involved with this same specific lab for a number of years. Dr Fauci insured that the lab was the recipient of grants of 1.5 million dollars over what appears to be a 6 year period that was actually signed off by Obama himself. Why would Fauci and Obama have such an interest in this lab in Wuhan China?

One would think this particular virus has been politicized. But why this one? One could also easily come to the conclusion that the virus was developed for this purpose. Perhaps developed as a weapon or at least a tool. The globalists at Devos 2020 warned us this would be happening this year. How did they know? Well they probably heard it from Bill Gates and our own Dr. Fauci who, has been telling it to the world for the last several years. Those two happen to also be business partners.

The bottom line is this, the world wide death rate for covid19 is still .04%. Much less than previous viruses and influenza but, we have done so much more to combat it except what we used to combat all the others, herd immunity. The question all us layman need to be asking is why?

Pretty interesting, FP. Would be even better if there's 2, or even 3, citations clipped along with this post.

I was always curious as to why Bill Gates seemed so engaged in various facets of this particular virus events.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 19, 2020, 02:56:15 PM
I was always curious as to why Bill Gates seemed so engaged in various facets of this particular virus events.


Bill has taken a beating for being engaged during this pandemic but if we look at his history, he has spent a lot of time and money on every epidemic and pandemic the last couple of decades. I don't like his politics but I do think he cares about humanity.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on August 19, 2020, 03:14:01 PM
Pretty interesting, FP. Would be even better if there's 2, or even 3, citations clipped along with this post.

I was always curious as to why Bill Gates seemed so engaged in various facets of this particular virus events.

That's a good question but unlike Billyb I don't think he's in it as a humanitarian. He's too connected with the elite globalists, George Soros and company. He's not in it for the money, maybe the power? The longer this virus goes on IMHO the more the elitists see that they can indeed control the population with just the fear of a virus. A virus with a mere .04% death rate.

As a side I was in Wally world today and there must have been 90% of the many folks there wearing a mask. I still do not own one
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 19, 2020, 05:08:08 PM
That's a good question but unlike Billyb I don't think he's in it as a humanitarian. He's too connected with the elite globalists, George Soros and company. He's not in it for the money, maybe the power? The longer this virus goes on IMHO the more the elitists see that they can indeed control the population with just the fear of a virus. A virus with a mere .04% death rate.

I'm almost in full agreement with you. Bill Gates had done a lot of philanthropy work, but this is the first one I can remember he's been active and very vocal on. I wasn't aware he and Fauci are business partners.

You know, if you for a minute think about this, individuals are now behind key and major components of our daily life. Communication, information systems, social network, commerce, energy, agricultural, distribution, transportation, finance, etc...it's unnerving to think what 'a' person can do to disrupt huge segments of our lives is he/she got out of bed the wrong way one morning...

Quote
As a side I was in Wally world today and there must have been 90% of the many folks there wearing a mask. I still do not own one

You know what I don't get? Every establishment where I am require a person to wear mask upon entry to any building, public gathering places, etc...restaurants for example. They won't let you in unless you are wearing one - but you watch the news every night and all you see for over 2 months right now is, hundreds if not thousands of people protesting on streets with our politicians egging them on as though its a revolution. They restrict you on one hand, then promote the opposite on the other.

They close schools and universities to protect students. But now those students have too much time on their hands and they go out and 'gather' in public instead. Go figure...Silly Billies...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 19, 2020, 05:34:21 PM
I wasn't aware he and Fauci are business partners.


When it comes to infectious diseases, I'm not surprised the big guys work together on a project or two. I'm not surprised some people have connections to the Wuhan lab. Labs around the world like that get level 4 certification not because China says so but experts in the international community say so. WHO is supposed to be the glue for all those labs to share info and prevent outbreaks. China doesn't do a good job following the rules to keep pathogens from escaping. The first SARS escaped 6 times since it was locked in Chinese labs. Many other pathogens escaped and China prevented major spread. They got confident they could do it again without warning the world but the virus of the century wasn't going to be stopped.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on August 19, 2020, 11:31:59 PM
That was an excellent post Gator. But let's break it all down a bit further. It's how I've been looking at it from it's inception anyway. The way we have handled all virus outbreaks and specifically corona virus outbreaks in the past was in fact herd immunity. No government mandated lock downs, no social distancing (which btw is unproven or even tested to actually stop or wean the spread of a virus. The idea was stolen from a kid at a science fair. look it up) no masks and no rushing to develop a vaccine. If you got it, you got it and most people did. With most viruses there was always at least some death associated with it. Some viruses had many deaths some had less. Herd immunity eventually caught up with the virus. Usually in a few months the death count declined. In the course of 12 months it was near dissipated altogether. Why the special attention for covid19?

It is a known fact that many of the corona viruses that have plagued the populations in the last 100 years and covid19 included is a man made virus. Covid 19 did not come from the Wuhan wet market. We know this now, why didn't someone tell us this from the beginning? The virus didn't morph from a bat in a cave to human. Nope, this virus was developed in a lab in Wuhan China.

Notwithstanding is the fact that our very own Dr. Fauci has been involved with this same specific lab for a number of years. Dr Fauci insured that the lab was the recipient of grants of 1.5 million dollars over what appears to be a 6 year period that was actually signed off by Obama himself. Why would Fauci and Obama have such an interest in this lab in Wuhan China?

One would think this particular virus has been politicized. But why this one? One could also easily come to the conclusion that the virus was developed for this purpose. Perhaps developed as a weapon or at least a tool. The globalists at Devos 2020 warned us this would be happening this year. How did they know? Well they probably heard it from Bill Gates and our own Dr. Fauci who, has been telling it to the world for the last several years. Those two happen to also be business partners.

The bottom line is this, the world wide death rate for covid19 is still .04%. Much less than previous viruses and influenza but, we have done so much more to combat it except what we used to combat all the others, herd immunity. The question all us layman need to be asking is why?

Well said. I read somewhere that H1N1 was much worse than CV but nothing was shut down back then. My Doctor refused to wear a mask during a recent visit and told me how overblown he believed it was with his scientific assessment of how rare it actually was for a healthy person to die of it. It still scares me some days and other days I just grin and bare it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 20, 2020, 12:31:49 AM
OMG

The 'conspiracy theorists' are back..

I hope someone can explain 'herd immunity' and its 'success' in Sweden...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/17/swedens-covid-19-strategist-under-fire-over-herd-immunity-emails

Gates getting Married seemed to have influenced him, positively and I think ANYONE believing some of the utter twaddle  re their inoculation campaigns needs to pause and think.... "am I having trust issues?"


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 20, 2020, 01:25:14 AM
OMG

Full circle.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 20, 2020, 05:51:20 AM
I hope someone can explain 'herd immunity' and its 'success' in Sweden...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/17/swedens-covid-19-strategist-under-fire-over-herd-immunity-emails


I read your article.  It acknowledges that an open economy would create more cases of infection, and hence more deaths, confined mostly to the frail.  Many scientists have advocated rigid quarantining of the frail (what Joe Biden is doing for himself) rather than quarantining the whole population (i. e., economic lockdown).   Makes sense to me. 

We discussed NY yesterday.  There the Democrat leadership policies directly caused the quarantine of the frail to be broken, killing thousands of elderly.  The frail need to be protected such as what you are doing for your mother.

The chart in your article shows infection cases are rising for several countries in Europe.  I hope the rise is abated.  The world does not need another wave.  Why no data for Italy, UK and Germany.  BC has shown how Italy cases have decline to very low levels. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 20, 2020, 05:56:04 AM
Full circle.

I do not believe China purposefully released the virus, yet motive, weapon and capability are obvious. 

Missing is the fact that China is not a monster to do such.  China is winning without being a monster. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 20, 2020, 06:29:59 AM

We discussed NY yesterday.  There the Democrat leadership policies directly caused the quarantine of the frail to be broken, killing thousands of elderly.  The frail need to be protected such as what you are doing for your mother.

The chart in your article shows infection cases are rising for several countries in Europe.  I hope the rise is abated.  The world does not need another wave.  Why no data for Italy, UK and Germany.  BC has shown how Italy cases have decline to very low levels.

Gator,

In Germany and Italy, more daily infections are occurring, but still low in terms of Rt and very low positivity.  A good portion is imported from tourists, immigrants etc and additional measures are being mandated i.e. in Italy, masking in public areas, at work, testing at airport arrivals and closure of discotheques/organized commercial parties. Levels are still well within T&T - testing and tracing capabilities. Of late, daily testing has also increased 20-30%  I also hope rates do not go up further and am still confident we can say 'it's under control'.

(http://i.postimg.cc/cJ3nSjs0/Screen-Shot-2020-08-20-at-15-07-59.png)

'Frail' folks can comprise a large portion of the population.  Elderly, pre-existing conditions, etc.  Have to remember that approx 60% of Americans have at least one pre-existing chronic condition and 40% more than one.  I guess this comprises elderly.  Many of these like yourself, I assume, are already being careful/minimizing contact as the risk factors are now well known.  Age, obesity, diabetes, chronic lung, heart and other organ conditions, transplant patients, sickle cell - the number adds up quickly.  Is interesting that half the population of Sweden are considered overweight or obese.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 20, 2020, 08:24:51 AM
I read your article.  It acknowledges that an open economy would create more cases of infection, and hence more deaths, confined mostly to the frail.  Many scientists have advocated rigid quarantining of the frail (what Joe Biden is doing for himself) rather than quarantining the whole population (i. e., economic lockdown).   Makes sense to me. 

We discussed NY yesterday.  There the Democrat leadership policies directly caused the quarantine of the frail to be broken, killing thousands of elderly.  The frail need to be protected such as what you are doing for your mother.

The chart in your article shows infection cases are rising for several countries in Europe.  I hope the rise is abated.  The world does not need another wave.  Why no data for Italy, UK and Germany.  BC has shown how Italy cases have decline to very low levels.

Hi Phil,

Sweden's economy bombed by over eight percent in the last qtr .. Finland's - 'locked down' just over 5%

"The economy of Finland also outperformed its larger neighbour in the second quarter, despite a tougher lockdown. Finland’s gross domestic product shrank by 5% against an 8.6% contraction in Sweden from the previous three-month period."

Sweden, which has stood out among European countries for its low-key approach to fighting the coronavirus pandemic, has recorded its highest tally of deaths in the first half of 2020 for 150 years, the Statistics Office said.

Those with antibodies present is less than 1 in 10 in Stockholm ...

'Herd immunity' is a very danger wet dream

LOTs of people died needlessly due to a failed experiment and Freedom of Info requests now appear to be showing those 'advocating herd immunity's' emails are 'missing' .... 

Thing is ..they sent them to fellow epidemiologists in Finland ..

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/19/sweden-records-highest-death-tally-in-150-years-in-first-half-of-2020


UK info :

http://tinyurl.com/yxtmuv9n

In 'my' region the figure re new cases is only 3 per 100k

In places like Manchester it is 10 to 15 times that

The UK is busy making those from nations with over 20 per 100k quarantine, but the Rep of IRL - which has been quarantining mainland UK citizens, is over the UK threshold ....





Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 20, 2020, 09:27:03 AM
...We discussed NY yesterday.  There the Democrat leadership policies directly caused the quarantine of the frail to be broken, killing thousands of elderly.  The frail need to be protected such as what you are doing for your mother...

Numbers can be mystifying sometimes. Numbers never lie. Macabre as it may be, statistics in this current global pandemic is all over the spectrum. I checked the US last night and it was interesting to me the correlation of # of tests conducted to date (+73 million), % of positive cases (5.7 M; 7.8%), and the CFR (176K; 3.9%). Using 325 million as our population, the mortality rate of this virus currently sits @ 0.054%.

Look at these same numeric correlations against other countries, which respective cases really differs from each other, is at the least very compelling.

Here's a another perspective that I was looking for last night but can't seem to find the current tally. If we start January 2020 and use August as an end date, you have about 240 days (30/mo avg). Pre-COVID, the US was averaging between 2.5- 2.8 million deaths/yr; that's +/- 6,800-7,600 deaths everyday.

Covid, or COVID-causal deaths per day is about 736/day since January 1st. Approximately 10% of our *normal* per day death rate. Heart disease kills 650K of us every year; 1,700+ everyday. More than twice COVID's rate.

But Americans still consume HUGE amount of Big Macs everyday :devil: No lockdown on that puppy. No distancing from burger joints, and certainly it doesn't require blowing up our economy to smithereens to curb the disease, much less our way of life.

Faux Pas's post above concerning our reaction to this virus' virulence seem to support these numbers to me. That is, if you agree *numbers don't lie* and want to look at this *scientifically*, statistically speaking.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 20, 2020, 09:27:57 AM
double. #!#% What's blowing up these pages?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 20, 2020, 10:21:58 AM
Gator

The latest UK numbers .. NOT good..

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-england-infections-nhs-test-and-trace-cases-a9679966.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-england-infections-nhs-test-and-trace-cases-a9679966.html)

Coronavirus: Infection rate in England up by almost a third in one week
The numbers of positive tests has been rising since July


A plan to take Ma 'up north' to visit family is defo off ... (
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 20, 2020, 06:11:05 PM

There was a time NYC lost 600 people per day out of a population of 8.4 million. That would mean one out of every 14,000 people would die each day, one out of every 467 people would die each month or 1 out of every 39 people living in NYC would die each year and that's a rate with action taken to slow it down. Things would increase exponentially if left unchecked. COVID-19 would easy be any nation's number one killer if no action was taken against it.

http://www1.nyc.gov/site/doh/covid/covid-19-data.page
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: rwd123 on August 20, 2020, 08:48:46 PM
I am seeing a number of charts indicating that while cases are increasing illnesses are not (to the same degree).

Rate of mortality has been largely linked to demographics (e.g. NYC is demographically the oldest city in the USA).

This "second wave" cheerleading is mostly driven by fearmongering for political purposes/power.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 20, 2020, 11:18:19 PM

Protecting the most vulnerable and not overloading hospitals which means everybody in serious or critical condition get the best care helps lower case fatality rate. Regardless of the fear mongering of the left, Trump is still taking action against the virus while trying to prevent the economy from crashing.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 21, 2020, 12:03:44 AM
This "second wave" cheerleading is mostly driven by fearmongering for political purposes/power.

RWD123

Let's test your hypothesis on the graph below.  How do you interpret the results shown for country X and what is your conclusion?  You can then guess which country the graphs represent.

(http://i.postimg.cc/9F3Kt2HP/Screen-Shot-2020-08-21-at-08-59-09.png)

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 21, 2020, 08:55:42 AM
I am seeing a number of charts indicating that while cases are increasing illnesses are not (to the same degree).

Rate of mortality has been largely linked to demographics (e.g. NYC is demographically the oldest city in the USA).

This "second wave" cheerleading is mostly driven by fearmongering for political purposes/power.

That almost defined what I did yesterday. Apparently John Hopkins is conducting the same daily reporting of the statistical correlation surrounding the virulence/fatality/care efficiency relationship of this pandemic.

The eye-opener is, there's so much bluster about which country is doing 'better' to prevent/contain the infection and which country is laxed and doomed. Which country is [blah, blah, blah as though this is a silly competition.

For nations that adopted strict lockdowns, in reality, at least so far, actually have a higher mortality rate AND alarmingly ( one critical aspect I believe is the most important to pay attention to) is which country displays the worst rate of recovery. Is a person's chances of survival depends upon the care it receives in its healthcare facilities? Belgium literally tops all categories. I don't know why that is...

http://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

Side Note: How does mortality differ across countries?

One of the most important ways to measure the burden of COVID-19 is mortality. Countries throughout the world have reported very different case fatality ratios – the number of deaths divided by the number of confirmed cases.

Differences in mortality numbers can be caused by:

-Differences in the number of people tested: With more testing, more people with milder cases are identified. This lowers the case-fatality ratio.

-Demographics: For example, mortality tends to be higher in older populations.

-Characteristics of the healthcare system: For example, mortality may rise as hospitals become overwhelmed and have fewer resources.

-Other factors, many of which remain unknown.
~

A lot data is also now available for what is termed 'Excess Mortality Rate', while not quite perfect science due to variance on incoming information, is still interesting to see, too.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 21, 2020, 08:58:06 AM
GQB

why do you constantly post tosh ?

Sweden had TEN times the mortality rate of Finland and it's economy contracted by over 8% as opposed to 5% ...

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 21, 2020, 09:01:45 AM
GQB

why do you constantly post tosh ?

Sweden had TEN times the mortality rate of Finland and it's economy contracted by over 8% as opposed to 5% ...

Well, gee...I'm sure Guam is faring so much better than Sweden, too...Not sure why you didn't make that point.

The data is there, dude. Read it and weep. If you can't stand to face reality, it's of no concern to anyone.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 21, 2020, 09:05:24 AM
Well, gee...I'm sure Guam is faring so much better than Sweden, too...Not sure why you didn't make that point.

The data is there, dude. Read it and weep. If you can't stand to face reality, it's of no concern to anyone.

Ah your 'data'.. like the efficacy of HCQ ...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 21, 2020, 09:09:09 AM
RWD123

Let's test your hypothesis on the graph below.  How do you interpret the results shown for country X and what is your conclusion?  You can then guess which country the graphs represent.



What do I see?

A plot of the CFR would show a significant decline. 

Yes, daily new cases in July and August have increased at rates higher than seen in the Spring.    More cases means more deaths and indeed they have increased too, albeit at much lower rates than seen in the Spring (i. e., infected people are dying at a much lower rate).

And your chart now shows the start of a downtick in both new cases and deaths.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 21, 2020, 09:09:45 AM
Ah your 'data'.. like the efficacy of HCQ ...

Reality can be a b!tch to some, Not least of which, apparently, to you. :devil:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 21, 2020, 09:11:06 AM
Reality can be a b!tch to some, Not least of which, apparently, to you. :devil:

The reality is your very own FDA ..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 21, 2020, 09:17:23 AM
The reality is your very own FDA ..

Contact page (http://www.henryford.com/about/contact), baby.

Here's another 'reality': Confirmed Positive; Deaths, CFR, Mortality

UK: 324,203; 41,489; 12.8%; 62.40
Sweden: 85,810; 5,805; 6.8%; 57.01

:devil:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 21, 2020, 11:47:57 AM

[Compares UK with Sweden ....?]

Only one of those nations has two major hub airports, cruise liner departure points ..  The UK govt. was daft enough to try the 'Swedish way' ..but 'wised up'..too late for many

You made a daft point - I simply busted you with one example..

I could have mentioned Norway or Denmark...all neighbouring Nordic nations to Sweden ..

So...

FAIL on the death front

FAIL on the 'herd immunity' front


FAIL on the economic front

Now, ( once more ) FDA v GCB's HenryFord outlier ... 







Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 21, 2020, 02:32:54 PM
:devil: Que, sera, sera... Reality bites again!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 21, 2020, 04:49:37 PM
Quote
What do I see?

A plot of the CFR would show a significant decline. 

Yes, daily new cases in July and August have increased at rates higher than seen in the Spring.    More cases means more deaths and indeed they have increased too, albeit at much lower rates than seen in the Spring (i. e., infected people are dying at a much lower rate).

And your chart now shows the start of a downtick in both new cases and deaths.

Remember that in the Spring, such levels of testing as we have today were not possible by a long shot.  I suggest levels of infection may have been much higher back then, we just could not see it.

In any case, the hypothesis presented by RWD123 does not fit, which was the point of my reply. 

Yes, levels of deaths and death are heading lower, but I highly doubt they will do much more than plateau at a lower level before the next 'events' that again cause an uptick.

20,000 more deaths are expected the next three weeks, which will also push the deaths per million rate higher than Italy.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on August 21, 2020, 09:13:39 PM
That was an excellent post Gator. But let's break it all down a bit further. It's how I've been looking at it from it's inception anyway. The way we have handled all virus outbreaks and specifically corona virus outbreaks in the past was in fact herd immunity. No government mandated lock downs, no social distancing (which btw is unproven or even tested to actually stop or wean the spread of a virus. The idea was stolen from a kid at a science fair. look it up) no masks and no rushing to develop a vaccine. If you got it, you got it and most people did. With most viruses there was always at least some death associated with it. Some viruses had many deaths some had less. Herd immunity eventually caught up with the virus. Usually in a few months the death count declined. In the course of 12 months it was near dissipated altogether. Why the special attention for covid19?

It is a known fact that many of the corona viruses that have plagued the populations in the last 100 years and covid19 included is a man made virus. Covid 19 did not come from the Wuhan wet market. We know this now, why didn't someone tell us this from the beginning? The virus didn't morph from a bat in a cave to human. Nope, this virus was developed in a lab in Wuhan China.

Notwithstanding is the fact that our very own Dr. Fauci has been involved with this same specific lab for a number of years. Dr Fauci insured that the lab was the recipient of grants of 1.5 million dollars over what appears to be a 6 year period that was actually signed off by Obama himself. Why would Fauci and Obama have such an interest in this lab in Wuhan China?

One would think this particular virus has been politicized. But why this one? One could also easily come to the conclusion that the virus was developed for this purpose. Perhaps developed as a weapon or at least a tool. The globalists at Devos 2020 warned us this would be happening this year. How did they know? Well they probably heard it from Bill Gates and our own Dr. Fauci who, has been telling it to the world for the last several years. Those two happen to also be business partners.

The bottom line is this, the world wide death rate for covid19 is still .04%. Much less than previous viruses and influenza but, we have done so much more to combat it except what we used to combat all the others, herd immunity. The question all us layman need to be asking is why?
Jeepers!   So China, Fauci, and Gates are all in on this...sorry that isn't believable.  These grand conspiracies' that all the nations of the world would have to be in on just don't pass the mustard. 

All that said, i'm starting to also question the necessity of all the nations have been doing, although generally I'm not following protocols myself. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 23, 2020, 08:24:41 AM

 Yulia Tymoshenko's got it.

http://www.dailysabah.com/world/europe/former-ukrainian-pm-yulia-tymoshenko-tests-positive-for-covid-19
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on August 23, 2020, 08:54:19 AM
Jeepers!   So China, Fauci, and Gates are all in on this...sorry that isn't believable.  These grand conspiracies' that all the nations of the world would have to be in on just don't pass the mustard. 

All that said, i'm starting to also question the necessity of all the nations have been doing, although generally I'm not following protocols myself. 

Fathertime!

Surprising as you impress me as a rabid follower for just about anything. A few salient facts the entire world has seemingly totally ignored:

The virus is real the panic is not

Positive cases of infections in 99.6 of the infected is only an illness. Not a death sentence

We likely will all experience it before it is no longer a threat.

Protecting the vulnerable does not require shutting down the 99.6%

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on August 23, 2020, 06:47:31 PM
Surprising as you impress me as a rabid follower for just about anything.
Interesting, because that is how you come across to me.   

A few salient facts the entire world has seemingly totally ignored:

The virus is real the panic is not

Positive cases of infections in 99.6 of the infected is only an illness. Not a death sentence

We likely will all experience it before it is no longer a threat.

Protecting the vulnerable does not require shutting down the 99.6%


this does appear to be the case...
I'd be curious to see how many more deaths and illnesses we would have had by now had we (The US) conducted business as usual. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 23, 2020, 07:09:12 PM
Interesting, because that is how you come across to me.   
this does appear to be the case...
I'd be curious to see how many more deaths and illnesses we would have had by now had we (The US) conducted business as usual. 

Fathertime!

For those STILL thinking the old weren't worth saving ..

1/ Sweden killed 10 times more than her immediate neighbours, Norway and Finland and six times more than Denmark

2/ Sweden's economy contacted by over eight percent in QTR 2 ... Finland just over 5

3/ Who thinks removing 5-8 eight years off a life is 'worth it' ?

4/ We see in nations like Belarus what happens to a 'leader' who tried to ignore the virus ..

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 23, 2020, 07:18:29 PM


1/ Sweden killed 10 times more than her immediate neighbours, Norway and Finland and six times more than Denmark

2/ Sweden's economy contacted by over eight percent in QTR 2 ... Finland just over 5

3/ Who thinks removing 5-8 eight years off a life is 'worth it' ?

4/ We see in nations like Belarus what happens to a 'leader' who tried to ignore the virus ..


Repeat, repeat, repeat.....rest....repeat, repeat again and again.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 23, 2020, 09:44:00 PM

Philippines will join 14 human trials of vaccines to get priority access.

The article also said our own Department of Health is considering waiving phase 4 trials to get a vaccine out sooner. I suspect every vaccine in the world that passes phase 3 will get approval and phase 4 will be conducted after distribution to the general population.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/philippines-in-talks-with-16-vaccine-makers-to-secure-supplies/ar-BB18ikfr?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 23, 2020, 10:57:05 PM
For those STILL thinking the old weren't worth saving ..

1/ Sweden killed 10 times more than her immediate neighbours, Norway and Finland and six times more than Denmark

2/ Sweden's economy contacted by over eight percent in QTR 2 ... Finland just over 5

3/ Who thinks removing 5-8 eight years off a life is 'worth it' ?

4/ We see in nations like Belarus what happens to a 'leader' who tried to ignore the virus ..

w/ strict lockdown:
UK: 324,203; 41,489; 12.8%; 62.40 - UK's economy contracted by 20.4% on Q2 (http://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/12/uk-gdp-plunged-by-a-record-20point4percent-in-the-second-quarter.html). (LMAO)

w/ relaxed lockdown:
Sweden: 85,810; 5,805; 6.8%; 57.01

:devil:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 24, 2020, 01:42:44 AM


You realize you have four years of posts criticizing Trump.  At maybe 5 such posts per week, that's 1000 posts.  And the basis of your criticism typically boils down not to hard facts but your perceptions, tainted by the fact you despise Trump's persona.  Try finding a post where you said something good about Trump and COVID.  Let's open that to anything about Trump, not just NY.


http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24465.msg539350#msg539350

JFTR
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 24, 2020, 02:36:53 AM

Repeat, repeat, repeat.....rest....repeat, repeat again and again.

Good morning, Phil,

It is indeed a shame that I had to repost given you don;t seem to be reminding those who post nonsense misinfo, but 'moan' about FACTS ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 24, 2020, 05:19:54 AM
Wear, wash, rinse, repeat is the motto around here.

A 100-page forum thread, when condensed to its essence, is about 3 pages of position statements.

Normalna
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 24, 2020, 08:10:17 AM
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24465.msg539350#msg539350

JFTR

I was wrong.  I correct the score: 

1,897 to 0 1   ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 24, 2020, 08:43:58 AM
Good morning, Phil,

Top of the day, McMoby.


Quote
It is indeed a shame that I had to repost given you don;t seem to be reminding those who post nonsense misinfo, but 'moan' about FACTS ;)

You seem to want an explanation.  Here goes.   

My openness to consider this post took a hit when immediately before I read your post asserting (for the 1,000th time) the Electoral College is wrong.

The EC is not wrong.   Because you 1) do not reside here, 2) have not educated yourself about the intent of the founding fathers, 3) have not observed closely the workings of the three branches of US government, 4) etc.  I declare your opinions about the EC are based are based in large part on lack of both knowledge and experience, aka ignorance  (I did not use any insulting term such as stupidity).
 

In addition to ignorance, now throw in another part, stubbornness, and still another for a gadfly posting history.  And maybe you will understand  why I did not  take your next post seriously, especially  when I see in the first words you are repeating stuff. 

Admittedly, I was in a bad mood from something else. You assert you posted facts.  Maybe.   I will never know.  Just another day at RWD. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 24, 2020, 11:02:02 AM
Hi Phil!
That was a lovely explanation.

However,

1/ It is a little tiresome when you or Beel suggest I do not know history and the intent of your founding fathers..

One of my own nations has a totally fair electoral system, where people has been disenfranchised  for two and a half centuries, but didn't implement the new, fair system on the mainland of GB.

I moan about ANY democracy  with a first past the post system..do not take it personally)

2/ I have posted indisputable figures from the Nordic nations that prove the UTTER folly ( murder?) of citizens than would likely still be here in Sweden and the denied policy of 'herd immunity'..

The press are on to that  in Sweden and suddenly lots of emails cannot be found...



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 24, 2020, 12:19:55 PM
BBC News - Hong Kong reports 'first case' of virus reinfection
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53889823 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53889823)

Hong Kong scientists are reporting the case of a healthy man in his 30s who became reinfected with coronavirus four and a half months after his first bout.

The World Health Organization warns it is important not to jump to conclusions based on the case of one patient.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on August 24, 2020, 01:12:50 PM

Only one of those nations has two major hub airports, cruise liner departure points ..  The UK govt. was daft enough to try the 'Swedish way' ..but 'wised up'..too late for many

You made a daft point - I simply busted you with one example..

I could have mentioned Norway or Denmark...all neighbouring Nordic nations to Sweden ..

So...

FAIL on the death front

FAIL on the 'herd immunity' front


FAIL on the economic front

Now, ( once more ) FDA v GCB's HenryFord outlier ...

Yet Moby has the cheek to compare Finland & Sweden. Finland has less than half the population, half the population density & a totally different culture & rural/urban mix. They also have a completely different economy and tackled covid with a hybrid strategy.

Moby & his kind need to see countries like Sweden fail and the usual links to back up his nonsense is the Guardian. A left wing, conservative hating excuse for a news outlet, feeding petty people who hate Trump, Brexit, conservatives, capitalism & common sense.

No country has come out of this well and the virus did what a virus does. It kills the old, the weak and the vulnerable.

Sweden has many things to be proud of, in its handling of covid but those politicising a pandemic will move mountains before accepting some inconvenient facts. Start with total deaths (5k+ deaths to 10M+population) and then look at how many came from care homes. From the 5,800 dead, more than 5,200 were 70+. Only 60 odd deaths were people under the age of 50. Then remove those who had serious illness and it’s penny numbers.

We’re literally talking about a handful of deaths in a country of 10.23 million people. Was it ideal no but it wasn’t the disaster Moby tries to sell. All the talk of ten times the rate of this and that is just a distraction. If only Sweden like the rest of the world had managed their care homes better. Moby will argue but he’s still wrong. He even blames Lukashenko ignoring covid for what’s happening in Belarus now. Nothing to do with a rigged election or anything :wallbash:

Sweden didn’t do it better than everyone else but they have lots of positives because of how they choose to handle it. The left just can’t stomach the thought.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 24, 2020, 01:25:31 PM
Yet Moby has the cheek to compare Finland & Sweden. Finland has less than half the population, half the population density & a totally different culture & rural/urban mix. They also have a completely different economy and tackled covid with a hybrid strategy.

That is why the only real measure we have is deaths per million as it encompasses most of the underlying factors.  As far as countries go, we're not really that different or unique in composition.  Propagation of the virus and its aftereffects are mostly driven by our behaviours.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on August 24, 2020, 01:49:45 PM
That is why the only real measure we have is deaths per million as it encompasses most of the underlying factors.  As far as countries go, we're not really that different or unique in composition.  Propagation of the virus and its aftereffects are mostly driven by our behaviours.

It's still a very simple yard stick because the initial death rate comparison doesn’t take into account things like additional non covid deaths attributed to people not going for treatment, suicide attributed to lockdown or murder & domestic abuse. On a wider scale we’ve got social issues, government debt & job losses. It’ll all play out over years rather than months.

Like I said, nobody came out of this with a gold medal and country comparison is apples and pears. Look at Belgium & Holland, two similar countries in many ways with two very different outcomes. Both locked down.

Belgium locked down but fared way worse than Sweden. Some people even try to compare New Zealand and the UK because they can’t help but politicise it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 24, 2020, 02:02:30 PM
It's still a very simple yard stick because the initial death rate comparison doesn’t take into account things like additional non covid deaths attributed to people not going for treatment, suicide attributed to lockdown or murder & domestic abuse. On a wider scale we’ve got social issues, government debt & job losses. It’ll all play out over years rather than months.

Like I said, nobody came out of this with a gold medal and country comparison is apples and pears. Look at Belgium & Holland, two similar countries in many ways with two very different outcomes. Both locked down.


Belgium locked down but fared way worse than Sweden. Some people even try to compare New Zealand and the UK because they can’t help but politicise it.

Well, looky what we got here?!? A reasoned, sensible post!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 24, 2020, 02:59:33 PM


1/ It is a little tiresome when you or Beel suggest I do not know history and the intent of your founding fathers..


So prove it by not sounding ignorant. 


Quote
One of my own nations has a totally fair electoral system, where people has been disenfranchised  for two and a half centuries, but didn't implement the new, fair system on the mainland of GB.

That's as clear as mud.  Whatever in hell your nation(s) implemented, I don't care.  You should stop caring about something my nation's founding fathers did purposefully and with much deliberation.  Plus it has functioned well for 230 years. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 24, 2020, 03:39:05 PM

In the past we talked about organ damage survivors can get. A couple of links pertaining to the heart below. Some survivors showed little symptoms and weren't even hospitalized yet MRIs did show that 78% had some type of abnormality in their hearts. We don't need to shut the nation down but we still need to be cautious. There's a reason all nations are taking some degree of action to prevent spread. COVID is bad stuff which can create long term medical costs for a nation.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2020/07/29/study-how-covid-19-coronavirus-may-affect-your-heart/#3c2a6eb61b89

http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768915
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on August 24, 2020, 06:34:19 PM
Well, looky what we got here?!? A reasoned, sensible post!

Word! Well said Roscoe.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 24, 2020, 10:38:09 PM
It's still a very simple yard stick because the initial death rate comparison doesn’t take into account things like additional non covid deaths attributed to people not going for treatment, suicide attributed to lockdown or murder & domestic abuse. On a wider scale we’ve got social issues, government debt & job losses. It’ll all play out over years rather than months.

Like I said, nobody came out of this with a gold medal and country comparison is apples and pears. Look at Belgium & Holland, two similar countries in many ways with two very different outcomes. Both locked down.

Belgium locked down but fared way worse than Sweden. Some people even try to compare New Zealand and the UK because they can’t help but politicise it.

Welcome back, Rosco!

'Some people' compare the Nordic nations as they are NOT...like you comparing apples and oranges.

'Some people' seek to deflect from the horrendous decisions of some govts. to go for 'herd immunity', then reverse course when too late.

'Some people' seek to deflect from Sweden suffering worse economically than neighbours who locked down.

'Some people' suggest this pandemkc is not nearly as serious as portrayed.

On this forum, you can expect your posts to be examined for accuracy.....

The Begium govt did not lock down as quickly as they should have...Perhaps you missed the staff at hospitals turning their backs on the PM when visiting hospitals...?

NZ is not a hub, island for transiting like the UK. It was much easier to lock down.

You have constantly downplayed the seriousness potential of the virus and believe that the effect on the economy should be a higher priority.

For sure, we don't know the damage done to folks couped up.. What what you have done in Scotland, if you were running the country?







Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 24, 2020, 10:54:58 PM
So prove it by not sounding ignorant. 

It was YOU that was and being ignorant...

Your EC system is broken. It keeps allowing a loser to 'win'..

I can only surmise that if it was the 'blue team being the beneficiaries  your attitude would be somewhat different?!....

quote author=Gator link=topic=24136.msg541042#msg541042 date=1598306373]
That's as clear as mud.  Whatever in hell your nation(s) implemented, I don't care.  You should stop caring about something my nation's founding fathers did purposefully and with much deliberation.  Plus it has functioned well for 230 years.
[/quote]

1/ It IS clear that is NOT functioning...given results

2/ I am sorry if I used expressions or acronyms you did not understand.

PR means proportional representation.

First past the post, means the party with the highest vote wins that seat and takes no account of the overall voting percentage that might allow a party to win whilst not being the favoured party.

Your 'patriotism' is no excuse for turning a blind eye.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 25, 2020, 12:50:51 AM
It was YOU that was and being ignorant...

Your EC system is broken. It keeps allowing a loser to 'win'..


Moby,

That was how the EC was designed and nothing soon will change that.  Consider it the same as a handicap when playing golf. 

This is one instance where the Trumpisim "It is what it is" rings true.

That is not to say the system is perfect, mainly in the way electoral districts are drawn.  Also, the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact plugs along, and IIRC states themselves are 'winner take all' within the state with a couple of exceptions.

There will always be something to complain about regardless of the system used.

The most important factor in any election is voter apathy.  I imagine compulsory voting could result in vastly different outcomes and its effect would be far greater than any faults one might think exists within the current EC system.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on August 25, 2020, 03:05:40 AM
'Some people' compare the Nordic nations as they are NOT...like you comparing apples and oranges.

Each of them have different land mass, population, demographics, social structure, economy and politics. Comparing them simply using Covid deaths per million is way too simplistic if we want to have a real discussion. It can be used by lazy people to criticise Sweden though.


'Some people' seek to deflect from the horrendous decisions of some govts. to go for 'herd immunity', then reverse course when too late.

And some people seek to vilify any country who didn't adopt a strategy similar to most liberal governments. A pissing contest if you like where in reality, Sweden has performed better than some of those you wish to praise. For the avoidance of doubt, I never said Sweden got it exactly right.

'Some people' seek to deflect from Sweden suffering worse economically than neighbours who locked down.

Some people seek to deflect that Swedens economy shrank less than the Eurozone and was one of the best performing. Yes Q2 figures suggest its slightly behind Norway and Finland by a couple % but their growth forecast for the rest of the year and 2021 is better. It's also worth noting that Finland's economy isn't as reliant on export as Sweden and Norway has a completely different economy altogether (apples and pears old chap).

'Some people' suggest this pandemkc is not nearly as serious as portrayed.

Some people do. I think its serious and real but hiding in our houses and destroying our economy with no immediate promise of a successful vaccine or heard immunity makes no sense. Particularly when its the old, weak and ill who are dying. This is serious but shutting the world down and watching Netflix isn't the correct strategy.

On this forum, you can expect your posts to be examined for accuracy.....

On this forum, you behave exactly as you do elsewhere. You can expect to get called out.

The Begium govt did not lock down as quickly as they should have...Perhaps you missed the staff at hospitals turning their backs on the PM when visiting hospitals...?

Belgium locked down on 18th March.The Netherlands locked down on March 15th. Sweden didn't lock down at all. Sweden performed much better than Belgium and only slightly worse than Holland. Whats your point because this makes you look silly?

With regard to your comments on the hospital staff, see below.

"It comes in response to the signing into law of a royal decree that allows for unqualified staff to undertake nursing duties amid the COVID-19 pandemic, according to local media."

http://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-belgian-medics-turn-their-backs-on-pm-over-covid-19-decree-11990101

So nothing to do with a late lock down then Moby.  :rolleyes:

NZ is not a hub, island for transiting like the UK. It was much easier to lock down.

Agreed but it didn't stop the liberal press and the left from falling over themselves to praise Jacinda Arden and her left wing party. Many used her to criticise male led conservative governments around the world.

You have constantly downplayed the seriousness potential of the virus and believe that the effect on the economy should be a higher priority.

Wrong again Moby. I have constantly said that the virus is real but locking everyone in their homes and hiding from a virus with no vaccine and potentially no heard immunity, would only wreck our economies and cause numerous secondary deaths and destruction, post lock down. We'll then be allowed back out and nothing will have changed.

For sure, we don't know the damage done to folks couped up.. What what you have done in Scotland, if you were running the country?

A tricky question because as we've already discussed, there is no one way to get through this. Whatever happens there will be deaths and politically motivated criticism.

Right now I think a hybrid strategy would work best. Think Sweden but with the care homes, the old, the weak and the ill shielded. Introduce social distancing, hand washing, mask wearing and limit numbers indoors. That would of course mean big changes and a new norm but we would have saved more of the vulnerable whilst avoiding the destruction of our economy.

Hind sight is a wonderful thing.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 25, 2020, 04:31:50 AM
Each of them have different land mass, population, demographics, social structure, economy and politics. Comparing them simply using Covid deaths per million is way too simplistic if we want to have a real discussion. It can be used by lazy people to criticise Sweden though.

Rosco,

Sometime in the future, statisticians, mathematicians and scientists will sit down and figure it all out, but we are talking years, when COVID is pretty much over.

The number of deaths per million is, until then, the best measuring stick we have.

Factors that would help clarify why are simply too many, and ongoing.

But we can draw some empirical conclusions or valid questions to ask ourselves, such as:

Italy, pretty much caught with pants down and elderly population, started national testing with infection focus Lombardia (Milan area) was able to drop the number of infections by a full national lockdown policy implemented on 10 March for 45 days (3 consecutive 14 day infection periods) and slowly open back up in a pre-programmed fashion based on collected data, resulting very low numbers of infections onward and in 586 deaths per million, still counting but very slowly, about 1 per million added per week.

The US with slightly younger population, for which one can assume infections were taking place at around the same time, NY and some places on the west coast were identified with a growing number of cases.  Testing was delayed sparse and in small numbers but increased as time went on.  NY became the focus for infections before it spread further.  NY locked down on 22 March in a localized fashion that was not implemented nationwide.  Mitigation efforts reduced infections to around 20k per day until mid June when many states started reducing hopskotch restrictions on schedules that did not follow national guidelines. Infection rates more than doubled.  NY kept on with restrictive measures and since has experienced low levels of infection.  Other states like California experienced higher infections along with states that lifted restrictions early.  This resulted in 547 deaths per million but still rapidly advancing at a rate between 2-4 per million per day, which will shortly surpass deaths per million in Italy.

Looking at these two countries, more is simlar than differs as far as populations, urban/rural spread etc goes.  The main difference and IMO objective factor that most determines deaths per million experienced is  the different containment and mitigation methods being used.

In the end, due to these differing methods, the US will fare much worse in terms of deaths and length of time the population and economy is affected.  Current projections are 300,000 deaths by 1 December in the US (900 per million) vs 44,000 (733 per million), representing approximately 20% difference.

Based on projections, I estimate approximately a bare minimum of 60,000 lives in the US could have been saved had the same mitigation methods used in Italy been used in the US, along with more quickly bringing infections down to a level where tracking and tracing are much more effective less negative effects on the population and economy.  Considering the timing of the spread in the US it could be far more than 60 thousand lives saved, even half the running total.

But Gator and others are likely correct in stating such would not work in the US because we are too 'rowdy', 'unruly' or whatever and not because the US is somehow inherently 'different' than Italy which you seem to point at.

p.s.
math has not been double checked so feel free to point out any errors.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 25, 2020, 09:10:38 AM
Each of them have different land mass, population, demographics, social structure, economy and politics. Comparing them simply using Covid deaths per million is way too simplistic if we want to have a real discussion. It can be used by lazy people to criticise Sweden though.

I don't know if you've been to all four Nordic nations, but you try to deflect from unpleasant truths .. 

And some people seek to vilify any country who didn't adopt a strategy similar to most liberal governments. A pissing contest if you like where in reality, Sweden has performed better than some of those you wish to praise. For the avoidance of doubt, I never said Sweden got it exactly right.

I vilify ANY nation's leaders / 'advisors'  who experimented with lives and they already had a heads up as to the consequences ..  You HAVE suggested Sweden and offered it as an example elsewhere .....


Some people seek to deflect that Swedens economy shrank less than the Eurozone and was one of the best performing. Yes Q2 figures suggest its slightly behind Norway and Finland by a couple % but their growth forecast for the rest of the year and 2021 is better. It's also worth noting that Finland's economy isn't as reliant on export as Sweden and Norway has a completely different economy altogether (apples and pears old chap).

Firstly, Sweden's economy shrank by more than 8 percent ( Finland was 5) - that's THREE percent or nearly 40 percent more .... that's a FACT ... We can discuss actual growth when the figures are released

Finland's economy relies on exports, too ..  What you overlook is non lockdown Sweden's should be performing 'better', as we have folks on here telling us lockdown effect the economy MORE ..



I think its serious and real but hiding in our houses and destroying our economy with no immediate promise of a successful vaccine or heard immunity makes no sense. Particularly when its the old, weak and ill who are dying. This is serious but shutting the world down and watching Netflix isn't the correct strategy.

The MAJORITY are older and have underlying health issues ..  I have a mate aged 61 who had to have a kidney removed late last year and needs to shelter .. I'll mention to him  he is old ..   He was fit as a fiddle until they issue with his kidney was found ,..

MANY, many people have had mild forms of COVID-19 and NOW have underlying, long-term health issues ...


On this forum, you behave exactly as you do elsewhere. You can expect your BS to get called out.

As long as I back my viewpoint up, and don't suggest mental health issues ... you'll be the one accountable and you'll SEE my response ... :ROFL: 

Belgium locked down on 18th March.The Netherlands locked down on March 15th. Sweden didn't lock down at all. Sweden performed much better than Belgium and only slightly worse than Holland. Whats your point because this makes you look silly?

There is no nation called 'Holland' .. and Sweden's record is abysmal for a non densely populated nation ...

With regard to your comments on the hospital staff, see below. This is why you're kept on a tight leash because you use unrelated events to feed your own agenda, hoping it wont be checked.

"It comes in response to the signing into law of a royal decree that allows for unqualified staff to undertake nursing duties amid the COVID-19 pandemic, according to local media."

http://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-belgian-medics-turn-their-backs-on-pm-over-covid-19-decree-11990101

So nothing to do with a late lock down then Moby.  :rolleyes:

It had EVERYTHING to do with Belgium's policy to COVID-19 and that was the straw that broke the camel's back for health professionals

Belgium's reporting methodology is FAR more accurate - than say - the UK's .. you might like to try to compare the excess death rates for BE with UK ones provided by the ONS ... the UK's figures are WORSE

http://www.info-coronavirus.be/en/news/graph-excess-mortality/

Now ROSCO is the one politicising COVID-19

Agreed but it didn't stop the liberal press and the left from falling over themselves to praise Jacinda Arden and her left wing party. Many used her to criticise male led conservative governments around the world.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/beauty/people/new-zealands-prime-minister-surprising-beauty-hero-lockdown/

Ooops, Rosco .. . even the UK 'Torygraph' sees what you won't ..  I had no idea of her political stance BTW.

your reading skills have failed you again. I have constantly said that the virus is real but locking everyone in their homes and hiding from a virus with no vaccine and potentially no heard immunity, would only wreck our economies and cause numerous secondary deaths and destruction, post lock down. We'll then be allowed back out and nothing will have changed.

My  'reading skills' note that you're back pushing the anti-lock-down tosh and you have zip data to suggest nations who tried such an approach 'succeeded' in anything, other than murdering more citizens, unnecessarily.

A tricky question because as we've already discussed, there is no one way to get through this. Whatever happens there will be deaths and politically motivated criticism.

Some leaders have been particularly stupid / cavalier

Right now I think a hybrid strategy would work best. Think Sweden but with the care homes, the old, the weak and the ill shielded. Introduce social distancing, hand washing, mask wearing and limit numbers indoors. That would of course mean big changes and a new norm but we would have saved more of the vulnerable whilst avoiding the destruction of our economy.

Sweden hasn't got high levels of folks with antibodies present and it APPEARS that there is a sliding scale of 'benefit' or none at all (?) re ever evolving strains

Hind sight is a wonderful thing.

It's hindsight - not bad for my reading skills ( ! )  and when it comes to pandemics isn't it best to know your virus, before experimentation, a la Sweden and ( so nearly ) the UK, Belgium, US ... ?



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on August 25, 2020, 11:45:26 AM
Moby, your post above countered nothing.

Experience tells me I’ll just waste more time proving you wrong. I’m not claiming to be 100% correct but everything you’ve got is simply bigoted views.

Try to just accept things are different to how you imagine.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: AnonMod on August 25, 2020, 12:38:39 PM
To all posters, please adhere to Admin's admonition that "insulting other posters and personal sniping detract from RWD's Vision and Mission, and is not tolerated. Zero tolerance."

Thank you.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 25, 2020, 01:37:23 PM
It was YOU that was and being ignorant...

Defintion of ignorant - lacking knowledge, information or awareness about a particular thing.


So you accuse me of knowing nothing about the electoral college, its historical roots, its legal authority, and its application.  Yet, you consider yourself all knowing even though you are not a citizen and never lived and worked in the US.   

EDIT:  My final sentence in this post was deleted for using the word "silly," a term considered insulting.  The mods are doing a difficult and thankless  their job of keeping this place orderly, or otherwise our decorum could decline to something akin to those TV shows where each side attempts to silence the other by screaming.   Hopefully none of us want that. 

Suffice it to say that Moby deserves placement on on my persona non grata list....that will preempt many insults. 

   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 25, 2020, 02:28:06 PM
Consider it the same as a handicap when playing golf. 

No!  Another non-resident speaks. 

A handicap system allows golfers of varying skill levels to compete on a fair and level playing field.  A handicap system is more akin to affirmative action initiatives. 

In contrast,  the Electoral College is a key part of our brilliant Constitution to assure an elected President has wide support from across the nation, not just the high population areas. It is consistent with other parts of our Constitution to limit executive power, a  paramount concern considering our founding fathers gained our independence fighting the king of the world's most powerful nation. 
 

Quote
This is one instance where the Trumpisim "It is what it is" rings true.

What!!!!

It is pragmatic above all else.  It necessitates that Presidents campaign to everyone.  Otherwise a Presidential  nominee would not even campaign in low population states. 

Quote
That is not to say the system is perfect, mainly in the way electoral districts are drawn. 

There is no drawing of districts to select electors.  The number of electors awarded to each state is equal to one for each senator and one for each member in the US House of Rep.  The drawing of Congressional Districts certainly influences the election of members of the House House representative, yet has nothing to do with the selection of electors with the exception of Maine.   


Quote
The most important factor in any election is voter apathy.  I imagine compulsory voting could result in vastly different outcomes and its effect would be far greater than any faults one might think exists within the current EC system.

Not everyone is fully aware of  how their choices will affect their lives, so why force them to vote  for something they don't understand.  I rarely vote for school board members, water district commissioners, etc. 

Your push for mandatory voting needs to be expanded to include an independent computer analysis of the life situation, goals and values of  each person.  The computer could match each voter to the candidate deemed best for them.  Just think of all the money spent on campaign ads that could be put to worthy programs such as education and healthcare. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 25, 2020, 02:53:46 PM

Right now I think a hybrid strategy would work best. Think Sweden but with the care homes, the old, the weak and the ill shielded. Introduce social distancing, hand washing, mask wearing and limit numbers indoors. That would of course mean big changes and a new norm but we would have saved more of the vulnerable whilst avoiding the destruction of our economy.

Hind sight is a wonderful thing.

Rosco, you and I are thinking alike. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 25, 2020, 03:50:35 PM

The number of deaths per million is, until then, the best measuring stick we have.


BC, you are not a simpleton, so why make it so simplistic when society is complex.  If only about deaths, all nations failed.  In a weight management program should participants with a BMI of 25 feel smug because one person has a BMI of 35?     

A more scholarly approach will consider impacts on the economy, social well being, education, etc. 

Quote
Looking at these two countries, more is simlar than differs as far as populations, urban/rural spread etc goes.   
   

You like to compare US with Italy, saying the US is slightly younger., as if it is apples and apples.  Lifetstyle and diet certainly differ. Obesity has been identified as a prime preexisting condition resulting in more grave outcomes for those infected with COVID.   The US rate of obesity is  36.2%, Italy's 19.9%.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_obesity_rate

Not apples and apples. 


Quote
In the end, due to these differing methods, the US will fare much worse in terms of deaths and length of time the population and economy is affected. 

Did the producers die, or were the deaths confined mostly in the elderly or sickly?  I don't know. 



Quote
Based on projections, I estimate approximately a bare minimum of 60,000 lives in the US could have been saved had the same mitigation methods used in Italy been used in the US, along with more quickly bringing infections down to a level where tracking and tracing are much more effective less negative effects on the population and economy.  Considering the timing of the spread in the US it could be far more than 60 thousand lives saved, even half the running total.

Let's see the math.  No, just your basic assumptions. 

Quote
But Gator and others are likely correct in stating such would not work in the US because we are too 'rowdy', 'unruly' or whatever and not because the US is somehow inherently 'different' than Italy which you seem to point at.

Indeed, individualism is important to many Americans. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 25, 2020, 10:53:01 PM
No!  Another non-resident speaks. 

A handicap system allows golfers of varying skill levels to compete on a fair and level playing field.  A handicap system is more akin to affirmative action initiatives. 

In contrast,  the Electoral College is a key part of our brilliant Constitution to assure an elected President has wide support from across the nation, not just the high population areas.

IOW a system that scores or weighs votes from some states differently than others.  A handicap, advantage, weight, whatever.

Quote
What!!!!

Nothing wrong with 'It is what it is' or?

Quote
There is no drawing of districts to select electors.  The number of electors awarded to each state is equal to one for each senator and one for each member in the US House of Rep.  The drawing of Congressional Districts certainly influences the election of members of the House House representative, yet has nothing to do with the selection of electors with the exception of Maine.   

Sure.  It's one of the quirks of our election system, but indeed not pertinent to the EC.

Quote
Your push for mandatory voting needs to be expanded to include an independent computer analysis of the life situation, goals and values of  each person. 

I wasn't pushing for mandatory voting, just using it as an example how voter apathy (or whatever one wants to call it) makes more of a difference than any perceived failures of our election system.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 25, 2020, 11:21:56 PM

BC, you are not a simpleton, so why make it so simplistic when society is complex. 

Because it's the only objective measuring stick we have at this time.

Quote
A more scholarly approach will consider impacts on the economy, social well being, education, etc. 

Sure, when folks get their heads around all the variables to figure it all out.  Maybe replace 'more scholarly' with 'very complex'.
   
Quote
You like to compare US with Italy, saying the US is slightly younger., as if it is apples and apples.  Lifetstyle and diet certainly differ. Obesity has been identified as a prime preexisting condition resulting in more grave outcomes for those infected with COVID.   The US rate of obesity is  36.2%, Italy's 19.9%.

Bottom line, a person that does not get infected cannot die from the virus despite having conditions that raise risks of doing so.  That is why mitigation of transmission is so important in reducing the number of deaths no matter what underlying differences may exist.


Quote
Not apples and apples.


Dead is dead or?


Quote
Did the producers die, or were the deaths confined mostly in the elderly or sickly?  I don't know. 

Are they not both consumers?  Do they not keep the buck moving along?  Do people who are elderly or sickly or have high-risk conditions stop paying their rent, mortgages, stop working?  Do the services and products they generate not contribute approximately 20% of our GDP or create 14% of jobs in the US?

Quote
Let's see the math.  No, just your basic assumptions.


When you show yours, I'll show mine ;)

Quote
Indeed, individualism is important to many Americans.

Which is quite ok if it does not affect the individualism of others, such as infecting others with the virus by your actions or inaction.  Double edged sword.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 26, 2020, 01:01:45 AM
Rosco, you and I are thinking alike.

Gator,

Thank you..

This made my day))
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on August 26, 2020, 02:29:32 AM
So Moby if I'm wrong, the UK is wrong, Sweden is wrong.....how would you handle the pandemic so that nobody would die and the economy and jobs were safe?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on August 26, 2020, 02:55:56 AM
Rosco,

Sometime in the future, statisticians, mathematicians and scientists will sit down and figure it all out, but we are talking years, when COVID is pretty much over.

I agree which is why I choose to debate people who insist that Sweden got it wrong. Moby uses words like "abysmal" and "horrendous" but when you break it all down, thats just a headline. For example 8% of nothing is still nothing. He also claims stuff like Brexit is a disaster and a failure yet the answer will only be available years down the road.

We'll know more in time and I agree its far too early to make bold statements but not everyone is capable of being rational. All we can do is look at things in a balanced way and be objective rather than emotional.

The number of deaths per million is, until then, the best measuring stick we have.

But its a measuring stick for deaths alone without providing any context. If someone wanted to live somewhere warm and used a chart showing the hottest day, it wouldn't guarantee them the warmest average climate year round.

I think that this is a misleading measuring stick, open to abuse by those who chose to use it for their own agenda.

My points regarding locked down Belgium performing worse than open Sweden for example, makes it impossible to argue that Sweden got it wrong. They might have but there's so many factors suggesting they didn't.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 26, 2020, 03:21:27 AM
Rosco,

Whether it's the virus or your toilet, best results so far were achieved by to flushing it out.

Quick implementation of a 45-day strict national lockdown, 45 days reopening gradually, by the numbers followed by prudent measures such as masks and distancing with consumers and workers being able to 'do their thing' with lower risk.  Quickest, and safest way that helps prevent relapses and allows for good tracking and tracing of any new infections.

As far as the economy goes, don't put the cart in front of the horse.  Look for steady, uninterrupted recovery instead of faltering with mitigation rollbacks and high infection levels that only makes businesses and customers wary and lose confidence.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on August 26, 2020, 03:50:40 AM
Rosco,

Whether it's the virus or your toilet, best results so far were achieved by to flushing it out.

Quick implementation of a 45-day strict national lockdown, 45 days reopening gradually, by the numbers followed by prudent measures such as masks and distancing with consumers and workers being able to 'do their thing' with lower risk.  Quickest, and safest way that helps prevent relapses and allows for good tracking and tracing of any new infections.

As far as the economy goes, don't put the cart in front of the horse.  Look for steady, uninterrupted recovery instead of faltering with mitigation rollbacks and high infection levels that only makes businesses and customers wary and lose confidence.

I agree that an initial strict lockdown for say 21 days would be prudent, given we're told to isolate for 14 if we've been exposed. And I mean a proper lockdown. That would bleed out the virus almost everywhere. Followed by opening up cautiously and shielding the vulnerable. In the UK we locked down from March to June with the initial idea that we were protecting the NHS. In the end, none of the wards got anywhere near maximum occupancy and all the extra billions we spent on the emergency hospitals, didn't even get used.

I'm not saying it was the wrong thing to do but it didn't hit us as hard as we feared. If we hadn't locked down maybe we would but thats why a hybrid system would work better than sitting at home for 5 months doing nothing.

Some folks think the economy comes last but never ever take it for granted. A broken economy will kill more people than a virus.

Also we called it a lockdown in the UK but in reality people were taking money off the government and spending time in the sunshine with their friends and family. Not everyone of course but when I was out walking the dog, I noticed it was often busier than when people were at work. We were never locked down.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 26, 2020, 04:16:08 AM
So Moby if I'm wrong, the UK is wrong, Sweden is wrong.....how would you handle the pandemic so that nobody would die and the economy and jobs were safe?

Simples:

I'm correcting your Q to," how WOULD I have handled.. "

1/ Have a track  'n'  trace program in place that works ( esp. at international hubs )

HOW many times has 'our' govt told us they have a plan for same ....then NOTHING?

2/ I'd have locked down earlier and made the fines higher.. Cyprus fines started from 300 Euros and one hads 2 hours to leave home and get back when shopping




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 26, 2020, 04:30:57 AM
All we can do is look at things in a balanced way and be objective rather than emotional.

Add apolitical as well.

Quote
But its a measuring stick for deaths alone without providing any context.

It includes all contexts.

Quote
I think that this is a misleading measuring stick, open to abuse by those who chose to use it for their own agenda.

That will happen using any yardstick.

Quote
My points regarding locked down Belgium performing worse than open Sweden for example, makes it impossible to argue that Sweden got it wrong. They might have but there's so many factors suggesting they didn't.

One clue is population density and country size (distance between cities)  Belgium is a very densely and urban-centric with only very short distances between cities, much like northern Italy and NY.  Higher population density, logically thinking, would allow the virus to transmit more quickly and distances between cities would affect how fast it spreads onward.  This is just one of many many factors, but an important one I think.

The image below shows two of the hardest hit areas in western Europe.  Belgium and parts of Germany that had high infection rates in the north and Milan/Venice/Bologna areas in the south.  Both are sprawling, industrialized, very densely populated areas.

(http://i.postimg.cc/2ycRFgqb/Screen-Shot-2020-08-26-at-13-20-45.png)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 26, 2020, 04:40:07 AM
In the UK we locked down from March to June with the initial idea that we were protecting the NHS. In the end, none of the wards got anywhere near maximum occupancy

We have had this discussion elsewhere - you were wrong and are still wrong
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on August 26, 2020, 06:06:09 AM
   
Bottom line, a person that does not get infected cannot die from the virus despite having conditions that raise risks of doing so.  That is why mitigation of transmission is so important in reducing the number of deaths no matter what underlying differences may exist.



BC, no government, government instituted lock down, no mask or social distance can protect anyone from a virus. Plainly the virus doesn't recognize the governments. Mandated rules to follow isn't going to save anyone's life. They do however rob us of our liberties and basic freedoms. In time most everyone will have contracted this virus and lived through it or died.

If you recall as I, the initial lock down was only to flatten the curve and slow the spread (not stop it) allow hospitals and medical systems to not be overwhelmed and to treat the infected. Just look at the conversations now. Reducing deaths is a noble goal but, stopping life to do so have never proven to work. Covid in these last 6 months has turned into a political tool. It's not about life and death anymore. It's about control
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 26, 2020, 06:46:08 AM
BC, no government, government instituted lock down, no mask or social distance can protect anyone from a virus. Plainly the virus doesn't recognize the governments. Mandated rules to follow isn't going to save anyone's life. They do however rob us of our liberties and basic freedoms. In time most everyone will have contracted this virus and lived through it or died.
FP,

Then what do you attribute the obvious difference in the following graphs to?

Does the virus simply no longer like Italy?  Did it just 'magically' go away? Of course not. So what went on here that even today causes Italy to have 1/30th of deaths (population adjusted) than the USA?

(http://i.postimg.cc/85JKkwgg/Screen-Shot-2020-08-26-at-15-31-06.png)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 26, 2020, 06:57:17 AM
...Does the virus simply no longer like Italy?  Did it just 'magically' go away? Of course not. So what's went on here that even today causes Italy to have 1/30th of deaths (population adjusted) than the USA?

LMAO! Cut through the chase, BC. Make living your life a little easier. Just say it straight out. It’s because the US have Trump as president whereas Italy do not. Maybe something more relevant like, the US having ‘payday loans’ or the US runs midnight infomercial, etc whereas Italy do not.

There, now we can resume actual conversation about the virus. Like for example comparing the virus virulence in Montana vs the European Union. You can even be the designated ‘graph’ overlord.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on August 26, 2020, 07:33:55 AM
Simples:

I'm correcting your Q to," how WOULD I have handled.. "

1/ Have a track  'n'  trace program in place that works ( esp. at international hubs )

HOW many times has 'our' govt told us they have a plan for same ....then NOTHING?

2/ I'd have locked down earlier and made the fines higher.. Cyprus fines started from 300 Euros and one hads 2 hours to leave home and get back when shopping

If I'd written "How would I have handled...." it would have been a question to myself. What I wrote didn't need correction. Please refrain from changing stuff that doesn't need changed. Every single thing involving you is laborious.

Back to the chat.

1) OK so you'd magically invent, manufacture and implement a track & trace system that hadn't been developed and wasn't readily available. We're off on the wrong foot again Moby and you're starting to imagine stuff to suit. I blame our government now for being 6 months down the road and not exactly setting the heather alight.

2) You'd have locked down earlier when nobody was locking down and all the experts hadn't found sufficient evidence to do so. European countries locked down within days of each other and the turning point in each country was the date of the 3rd confirmed covid death. It's easy to replay history and look like the smart guy but sadly you're not even the smartest guy in this conversation.

I agree we should have locked down properly because we didn't have a lock down, we had a please stay indoors and behave but your answer doesn't answer my question. It's like asking someone what they would have done to win the battle of Culloden in 1745 and saying - I'd have used apache gunships.

 :wallbash:
 



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on August 26, 2020, 07:41:19 AM
Add apolitical as well.

It includes all contexts.

That will happen using any yardstick.

One clue is population density and country size (distance between cities)  Belgium is a very densely and urban-centric with only very short distances between cities, much like northern Italy and NY.  Higher population density, logically thinking, would allow the virus to transmit more quickly and distances between cities would affect how fast it spreads onward.  This is just one of many many factors, but an important one I think.

The image below shows two of the hardest hit areas in western Europe.  Belgium and parts of Germany that had high infection rates in the north and Milan/Venice/Bologna areas in the south.  Both are sprawling, industrialized, very densely populated areas.

(http://i.postimg.cc/2ycRFgqb/Screen-Shot-2020-08-26-at-13-20-45.png)

Respectfully we'll have to agree to disagree in some areas.

What I will add is that population density is only one parameter from many. Culture, age and obesity are key deciding factors too. On this point alone, skinny young clean folks who respect personal boundaries and crammed into a densely populated environment will fair better than older unwell fat folks with more space. That's why I'm insisting that deaths per million is only a vague stat to highlight.

Anyway, opinions are like arseholes as they say.....
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on August 26, 2020, 07:45:05 AM
BC, no government, government instituted lock down, no mask or social distance can protect anyone from a virus. Plainly the virus doesn't recognize the governments. Mandated rules to follow isn't going to save anyone's life. They do however rob us of our liberties and basic freedoms. In time most everyone will have contracted this virus and lived through it or died.

If you recall as I, the initial lock down was only to flatten the curve and slow the spread (not stop it) allow hospitals and medical systems to not be overwhelmed and to treat the infected. Just look at the conversations now. Reducing deaths is a noble goal but, stopping life to do so have never proven to work. Covid in these last 6 months has turned into a political tool. It's not about life and death anymore. It's about control


I pretty much agree with all of this.  :clapping:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 26, 2020, 07:45:22 AM
GQ,

Ridicule and denigrate as much as floats your boat.  Will not change the facts.

Yesterday, EU 183 vs US 1290 deaths.

[edit] Don't forget that's with 116 million more people in EU.  You can do the math.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 26, 2020, 07:50:51 AM
Respectfully we'll have to agree to disagree in some areas.

Indeed, and that is quite ok.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on August 26, 2020, 08:01:39 AM
Indeed, and that is quite ok.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on August 26, 2020, 08:05:15 AM
FP,

Then what do you attribute the obvious difference in the following graphs to?

Does the virus simply no longer like Italy?  Did it just 'magically' go away? Of course not. So what went on here that even today causes Italy to have 1/30th of deaths (population adjusted) than the USA?


I get it, you like graphs. Graphs are but a snapshot in time and do not tell the story. Comparing Italy to the USA is like apple to pears. I've no idea what or how Italy counts deaths. I do know that in the US the covid death numbers are highly skewed. Dying with covid is counted the same as dying by covid. Most of the US deaths are the elderly and that was multiplied by numerous governors pushing infections into nursing homes. Was that the case in Italy or anywhere else you wish to do a graph comparison? If you like graph comparisons have you graphed covid to other viruses? There are simply too many variables to consider when comparing Italy to the US.

Back to the covid virus. No, it doesn't like or dislike one country or government from another. In fact viruses do not like or dislike anything. They merely spread and infect until the host immunity has adjusted for it. Slowing that infection does not change where or when that will be. I suspect before it is over we'll all have had it and lived or died. Just like every other that mankind has dealt with through the ages. Eventually it comes down to herd immunity one way or the other. Slow or fast, lock downs and masks may or may not actually slowdown the spread. We really do not know. What we do know is the world is approaching this virus different than any previous viruses. Rather than studying graphs perhaps you should ask why to that very basic question?

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 26, 2020, 08:05:41 AM
GQ,

Ridicule and denigrate as much as floats your boat.  Will not change the facts.

Yesterday, EU 183 vs US 1290 deaths.

[edit] Don't forget that's with 116 million more people in EU.  You can do the math.

Which just proved even further making this pandemic as some sort of ‘competition’ is about as pointless and redundant as a door knob. Like I have already said before, there’s one significant legacy in this pandemic that unfortunately Italy will have to live with in infamy.

But that’s really your problem, so knock yourself out.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 26, 2020, 08:42:37 AM
Like I have already said before, there’s one significant legacy in this pandemic that unfortunately Italy will have to live with in infamy.

But that’s really your problem, so knock yourself out.

And are we in the US not making our own very SAD and infamous legacy to the tune of many tens of thousands that could still be alive today had we not ignored the obvious, with our leaders gambling it will just go away and that in the end, our economy was worth more than the lives of so many fathers, mothers, brothers, sisters and children?  Furthermore that we were not willing to even help out our first responders, doctors, nurses other healthcare folks by taking simple measures that would reduce their workload, grief and suffering?  You may not have shed a tear this whole time but many of them do so day in and day out, even today a thousand or more times.  Instead we fight about wearing masks in public places, stores and airplanes.  Is that the kind of 'freedom' we really strive for.  Yea right.

We allowed an economic value to be assessed for each and every life lost due to the virus, and not willing to pay the price to save them.  It's one thing to do the best with what you have, quite another to not do your best with so much.  Shame is on us GQ.

God bless the economy eh?

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 26, 2020, 11:47:53 AM
And are we in the US not making our own very SAD and infamous legacy...

No. Not really. Just Italy. No other country I know of resorted to such...

Anyway, I thought you'd have the graphs for Montana vs EU. Disappointed. Are we seeing this anytime soon?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 26, 2020, 03:26:13 PM
IOW a system that scores or weighs votes from some states differently than others.  A handicap, advantage, weight, whatever.

I am a golfer and know all about the purpose of handicaps.  It is used for wagering.  BTW club championships are won based on actual scores, not handicap adjusted score. 

To label the EC as a handicap system downplays the system brilliantly interwoven in our Constitution to limit Executive Power.  The EC is just one part but necessary.  The founding fathers waged war against their own blood largely because of unfair treatment by the ultimate executive power - a king.  Their new nation would not have anything close to a king.  The President would indeed serve the people.   

Quote
Nothing wrong with 'It is what it is' or?

Its an acknowledgment.  Trump has expressed his regrets about deaths, his sympathy for the the families, saying one death is too much.   How many deaths resulted from people not complying with guidelines, or from decisions made by Democrat Governors, etc.?  There is plenty of blame to go around.  What is your interpretation?



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 26, 2020, 03:36:24 PM
Are they not both consumers?  Do they not keep the buck moving along?  Do people who are elderly or sickly or have high-risk conditions stop paying their rent, mortgages, stop working?  Do the services and products they generate not contribute approximately 20% of our GDP or create 14% of jobs in the US?

Good point.  The elderly may not be making money yet are spending money, adding something to the economy.   However providers (producers) add more.   


Quote
When you show yours, I'll show mine ;)
 

That weak, huh?  I did not make the predictions. 


Quote
Which is quite ok if it does not affect the individualism of others, such as infecting others with the virus by your actions or inaction.  Double edged sword.

A better term is "responsible individualism."

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on August 26, 2020, 07:19:26 PM

World's first documented reinfection of SARS-COV2 just happened. Man got reinfected by same virus but different strain 4 1/2 months after being infected the first time. Dr. Fauci said immunity from coronaviruses that cause the common cold usually last 3-6 months so it's not surprising what we're seeing here.

http://www.statnews.com/2020/08/24/first-covid-19-reinfection-documented-in-hong-kong-researchers-say/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 26, 2020, 11:47:09 PM
Reinfection also noted in Belgium and Netherlands along with more reports about aftereffects on the heart and brain, even in 'light' cases.

As far as reinfection goes, different strain detected as the first infection but likely few cases detected since few samples are tested to detect which strain is involved.

Just goes to show how little we know about the virus and its aftereffects.  Only time will tell how effective even a vaccine will be over time.

This underlines that not getting infected in the first place is still the most prudent path forward.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on August 27, 2020, 06:09:44 AM
Here's some interesting data for July.

In July covid was only the 8th most frequent underlying cause of death in the UK, accounting for 2.6% of all deaths and 976 people. There were almost 39,000 deaths with dementia, Alzheimers and heart disease taking the most.

More interestingly there were fewer deaths in July 2020 than in July 2019.

http://tinyurl.com/yxzbldkt

Interestingly in Sweden where we're told all hell has broken loose, the average number of daily deaths a week in 2020 is less than the average from 2015-2019.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/1115707/sweden-number-of-deaths-per-week/

Interesting reading for many, inconvenient figures for some.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 27, 2020, 07:07:15 AM
Ok folks...

If it reads like a snipe, feels like a snipe, smells like a snipe, tastes like a snipe, refers to a snipe, quotes a snipe or is even somewhere in the remote vicinity of a snipe it gets deleted.  Persist and this otherwise useful thread will be closed permanently.

I just took a look 'elsewhere' and that kinda crap simply won't be allowed to bleed over to RWD either.

You were warned prior and blatantly disregarded that warning.  It's getting to be too much work weeding out all the crap so don't be surprised if you find you can't log back in to RWD for a while, or forever.

Don't bother complaining as that will get trashed as well.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 27, 2020, 08:43:11 AM

Interestingly in Sweden where we're told all hell has broken loose, the average number of daily deaths a week in 2020 is less than the average from 2015-2019.



Sweden's excess deaths. Decide for yourself
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 27, 2020, 09:01:30 AM
...

In July covid was only the 8th most frequent underlying cause of death in the UK, accounting for 2.6% of all deaths and 976 people. There were almost 39,000 deaths with dementia, Alzheimers and heart disease taking the most.

More interestingly there were fewer deaths in July 2020 than in July 2019.

Interestingly in Sweden where we're told all hell has broken loose, the average number of daily deaths a week in 2020 is less than the average from 2015-2019.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/1115707/sweden-number-of-deaths-per-week/

Interesting reading for many, inconvenient figures for some.

Interesting! I love Sweden. Such an awesome country. Pretty gals, too.

As for relative mortality, yes, I posted the same in the US, too not too long ago. Heart disease alone kills about 650,000 Americans every year - 1,730/day. That's actually a decreased number from 2015-2016 where 845,000+ Americans died of heart disease.

Yet, the US have no such programs like social-distancing from burger joints, Popeye Chicken masking, bacon lockdowns, etc.. We do with COVID despite the mortality rate is more than half/day that of heart disease.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on August 27, 2020, 09:05:02 AM
Yet, the US have no such programs like social-distancing from burger joints, Popeye Chicken masking, bacon lockdowns, etc.. We do with COVID despite the mortality rate is more than half/day that of heart disease.

Is it because heart disease is not a transmittal type of disease?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 27, 2020, 09:10:40 AM
Is it because heart disease is not a transmittal type of disease?

You mean like COVID with a mortality rate of 0.054%? Not 5%, but 0.054%? Which btw, largely include those who already have heart disease.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 27, 2020, 09:37:54 AM
Stats :

World wide cases:  24 million

deaths: 822k .. isn't that 4% ?


US cases : 5.9 million

deaths : 182k

 .. isn't that 3.2%

(Figs. as of 27th Aug, 2020)

Not forgetting those who survived as have long-term issues



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 27, 2020, 09:50:36 AM
Stats :

World wide cases:  24 million

deaths: 822k .. isn't that 4% ?


US cases : 5.9 million

deaths : 182k

 .. isn't that 3.2%

(Figs. as of 27th Aug, 2020)

Not forgetting those who survived as have long-term issues

I'd explain this but I'd rather someone else do it...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on August 27, 2020, 10:26:46 AM
Stats :

World wide cases:  24 million

deaths: 822k .. isn't that 4% ?


US cases : 5.9 million

deaths : 182k

 .. isn't that 3.2%

(Figs. as of 27th Aug, 2020)

Not forgetting those who survived as have long-term issues


We know how many covid deaths there have been.

We know how many people have tested positive from a covid test.

We don’t know exactly how many people have come into contact and been infected, with and without symptoms but we do know that there are many, many, many more globally.

Therefore if one divides the deaths by a number substantially larger than the tested positive rate, the mortality rate is very different to the one you think it is.

Think of it another way Moby, if 600 people are caught speeding in the U.K. on Thursday, that doesn’t mean only 600 people broke the speed limit. We only know how many got caught but we can guess the amount of people speeding was significantly greater.

It’s actually quite simple stuff when one thinks about it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 27, 2020, 10:42:34 AM
Rosco


This is simple ..


In the USA the near 200k who died ... Do you doubt the numbers ?

I expect those that may have had it ( perhaps not even knowing it ) are far greater, but it is still VERY scary who many member seek to lessen the dangers and long-term effects, even if surviving.

In the meantime Sweden is on the UK's list of quarantine nations. 


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 27, 2020, 10:53:41 AM
I find it helpful to think and breathe before thumping away at a keyboard.

We know how many covid deaths there have been.

We know how many people have tested positive from a covid test.

We don’t know exactly how many people have come into contact and been infected, with and without symptoms but we do know that there are many, many, many more globally.

Therefore if one divides the deaths by a number substantially larger than the tested positive rate, the mortality rate is very different to the one you think it is.

Think of it another way Moby, if 600 people are caught speeding in the U.K. on Thursday, that doesn’t mean only 600 people broke the speed limit. We only know how many got caught but we can guess the amount of people speeding was significantly greater.

It’s actually quite simple stuff when one thinks about it.

Rosco-

Just to chime in: I do not doubt, in addition to your wonderful post, that you know the difference between *mortality rate v case fatality rate*.

Obvious this isn't the case with all the members here. The US's CFR (Case Fatality Rate) is even GREATER (less virulent) than the current reported percentages by virtue of what you explained and exemplified above.

So, as a public service: The US's mortality rate is at roughly 0.05% and the CFR is at 3% +.

Great work mate!! I'm glad I didn't need to edooket you.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 27, 2020, 11:10:22 AM
Unfortunately, even a calculated CFR of .000000000000001 will not help reduce the quarter-million dead or more we'll have by the end of the year.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 27, 2020, 11:26:04 AM
Unfortunately, even a calculated CFR of .000000000000001 will not help reduce the quarter-million dead or more we'll have by the end of the year.

It is what it is! The US sustain approximately 2.8 million deaths every year. There are at least 10-12 nations that amass greater morality rate than the US every year. Even Italy suffers more.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 27, 2020, 11:57:31 AM
Don't quite understand "amass greater morality rate than the US every year"..

Would be interesting to take a look at whatever source you're using.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 27, 2020, 12:40:15 PM
Don't quite understand "amass greater morality rate than the US every year"..

Would be interesting to take a look at whatever source you're using.

Hahah! 'morality'. You Italian folks are so 'immoral'. :devil: Yes, *mortality*.

Italy have a larger mortality rate than the US in the years the report was reported. Damned those killer-pasta!!!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on August 27, 2020, 01:57:53 PM
Rosco


This is simple ..


In the USA the near 200k who died ... Do you doubt the numbers ?

I expect those that may have had it ( perhaps not even knowing it ) are far greater, but it is still VERY scary who many member seek to lessen the dangers and long-term effects, even if surviving.

In the meantime Sweden is on the UK's list of quarantine nations.

Progress Moby, you’re seeing my POV.

To be clear, i’m not lessening the dangers of coved-19 or the potential long term effects that are yet to show their hand. I’m merely looking at the situation for what it is and avoiding the hysteria surrounding the pandemic.

Covid 19 is worrying enough without having fake news and exaggerated results amplified for the wrong reasons. Think Chinese whispers. Lol
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on August 27, 2020, 01:59:05 PM
Rosco-

Just to chime in: I do not doubt, in addition to your wonderful post, that you know the difference between *mortality rate v case fatality rate*.

Obvious this isn't the case with all the members here. The US's CFR (Case Fatality Rate) is even GREATER (less virulent) than the current reported percentages by virtue of what you explained and exemplified above.

So, as a public service: The US's mortality rate is at roughly 0.05% and the CFR is at 3% +.

Great work mate!! I'm glad I didn't need to edooket you.

Not yet anyway lol
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 27, 2020, 03:25:51 PM
Italy have a larger mortality rate than the US in the years the report was reported. Damned those killer-pasta!!!

Interesting... Maybe because Italians live longer and are having fewer kids?  Elderly 'top heavy' demographics would logically lend to higher overall mortality. 

Certainly not the food.

Dunno... maybe a link to the reported report or something so I can understand more?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 27, 2020, 03:49:45 PM
Interesting... Maybe because Italians live longer and are having fewer kids?  Elderly 'top heavy' demographics would logically lend to higher overall mortality. 

Certainly not the food.

Dunno... maybe a link to the reported report or something so I can understand more?

Holy Kayleigh McEnnany BC! Is life so good in Italy you guys feel sleeping is unnecessary these days! I mean, thoughts of cute lil ol' me isn't keeping you up, no? :)

OK..but since you asked, I can provide the link (http://www.macrotrends.net/countries/ITA/italy/death-rate). But mind you, I'm not forgetting the fact I've asked for the Montana v EU graphs which you haven't yet indulge me with.

Pretty cool site. It has all the other pertinent subjects for all nations. But don't stay up late, young man. Get some sleep! :devil:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 28, 2020, 03:52:38 AM
Then indeed a demographic age difference involved.

Some more info here that explains quite a bit about mortality vs other countries, unfortunately, Italy not listed but one can get a good gist of what's behind 'crude mortality' rates your link shows.

http://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/mortality-rates-u-s-compare-countries/#item-overall-age-adjusted-mortality-rate-per-100000-population-1980-2015-3

Oh, wasn't late here at all.  Around here we get up fairly early 7.30ish, lunch around 2 pm followed by a nice relax/nap, up at 4 pm dinner starts around 9.30 pm or so, bedtime around 1-2am.  I guess you are pretty familiar with the routine.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 28, 2020, 04:29:03 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/wp9OTFB.jpg)

Trump:  "I tried the Russian vaccine and confirm no side effects"
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on August 28, 2020, 08:07:12 AM
Then indeed a demographic age difference involved.

Some more info here that explains quite a bit about mortality vs other countries, unfortunately, Italy not listed but one can get a good gist of what's behind 'crude mortality' rates your link shows.

http://www.healthsystemtracker.org/chart-collection/mortality-rates-u-s-compare-countries/#item-overall-age-adjusted-mortality-rate-per-100000-population-1980-2015-3

Oh, wasn't late here at all.  Around here we get up fairly early 7.30ish, lunch around 2 pm followed by a nice relax/nap, up at 4 pm dinner starts around 9.30 pm or so, bedtime around 1-2am.  I guess you are pretty familiar with the routine.

US maintains a higher rate of circulatory diseases - diabetes, heart diseases, etc...high cholesterol/sugar consumption I suppose is expected considering a lot of comfort food is readily available for the masses. Then there's also the growing population of Hispanics, whose diet consist of high amounts of lectin-rich foods, grain and lard.

The flip-side though is we had reduced smoking which in turn decreased lung, throat cancer.

Although quite interesting to me that the very vast majority of western European nations have a much higher rate of mortality than the US considering,eherm, all the yadayada our *healthcare is better than yours, etc...*
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 31, 2020, 07:53:31 AM
FLORIDA SITUATION IMPROVED

New cases in Florida were about 10,000 per day in the beginning of August.  Florida was considered one of the nation's epicenters for COVID.  The question was whether this was the beginning of a large second wave or merely re-cresting of the first wave.  Today, cases are less than 3,000 per day. 

140,000 new cases and 4,100 additional deaths  for the month of August in a state population of 22 million.    My county of 1.5 million is faring better (7,400 cases and 200 deaths) as the Miami area continues to be the most impacted. 

Hospitalization rates have improved as well, never approaching the capacity of the health care system.    11,400 of the new Florida cases for August required hospitalization (about 8 percent of cases).

Still too many deaths, yet life is improving: 

     -  My germaphobic wife even allows herself to enjoy indoor restaurants (too hot for outdoor dining). 

     -  My granddaughter is in remote schooling.  The teacher monitors whether she stays in front of the screen.   Because she is in kindergarten, my son must work at home to assist.  Plans are to open classrooms in 2 weeks.   Top of her class in math.  Needs work on pronouns.

     -  My golfing survived, yet one foursome of 50-somethings at our club became infected.  All have returned to golf. 

Is this the great tragedy claimed by the Democrats?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 31, 2020, 08:46:33 AM
Although quite interesting to me that the very vast majority of western European nations have a much higher rate of mortality than the US considering,eherm, all the yadayada our *healthcare is better than yours, etc...*

The demographic reasons for the higher mortality in some other countries is clear.  Regarding healthcare, look a the section in the link I sent entitled 'The U.S. has the highest rate of deaths amenable to health care among comparable countries'

A country can have a great healthcare system, but its value is degraded in terms of mortality if for whatever reason is not available to many.  Lack of insurance and high deductibles may well be a reason for folks not being able to benefit.  I do agree that if everyone could get the high level of healthcare available in the US, we might improve other areas that need improvement like maternal and infant mortality and make up for some other factors like overdose deaths that drive up our mortality figures.

Consider life expectancy as a measure of overall health and healthcare performance as well.

http://www.infoplease.com/world/health-and-social-statistics/life-expectancy-countries


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 31, 2020, 08:50:02 AM
FLORIDA SITUATION IMPROVED

New cases in Florida were about 10,000 per day in the beginning of August.  Florida was considered one of the nation's epicenters for COVID.  The question was whether this was the beginning of a large second wave or merely re-cresting of the first wave.  Today, cases are less than 3,000 per day. 

140,000 new cases and 4,100 additional deaths  for the month of August in a state population of 22 million.    My county of 1.5 million is faring better (7,400 cases and 200 deaths) as the Miami area continues to be the most impacted. 

Hospitalization rates have improved as well, never approaching the capacity of the health care system.    11,400 of the new Florida cases for August required hospitalization (about 8 percent of cases).

Still too many deaths, yet life is improving: 

     -  My germaphobic wife even allows herself to enjoy indoor restaurants (too hot for outdoor dining). 

     -  My granddaughter is in remote schooling.  The teacher monitors whether she stays in front of the screen.   Because she is in kindergarten, my son must work at home to assist.  Plans are to open classrooms in 2 weeks.   Top of her class in math.  Needs work on pronouns.

     -  My golfing survived, yet one foursome of 50-somethings at our club became infected.  All have returned to golf. 

Is this the great tragedy claimed by the Democrats?

Is IS a great tragedy - given Florida is 3.5 times worse re new cases ( at a level you seem to regard as 'good' ) than France, which is seriously considering drastic measures .
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on August 31, 2020, 08:53:08 AM
A theory re new cases

The UK: only a third of workers have gone back to work

In France 2 out of three have ..

Where are the biggest dangers of infection ?    Close quarters and air-conditioning ( Public transport and wok environments )


Could this be why the UK is ( currently ) much lower ( through increasing) than France

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 31, 2020, 11:11:07 AM
Is IS a great tragedy - given Florida is 3.5 times worse re new cases ( at a level you seem to regard as 'good' ) than France, which is seriously considering drastic measures .

Certainly impactful, yet Not a Great Tragedy for two reasons:

     1.  The number of cases is small as a percentage of the population, and majority of infections are inconsequential if not asymptomatic. 
 
     2.   Outcomes are dependent upon one's personal decisions: 

               a.  If elderly or having underlying conditions, definitely stay home.  Depend on friends and family to provide for you.   

               b.  If average health, captain of your soul and master of your fate, practice the guidelines and get on with living life, particularly knowing that if one became infected,  the risk of hospitalization is small.

               c.  If frightened by the news, stay sheltered yet study science, risk and risk mitigation, and perhaps you too will decide to live life.   

I am not making light of Biden for sheltering in his basement.  That is his personal decision, and probably prudent considering he seems frail, has others who will provide for him, and has access to technology for communication.  The fact that someone with Joe's views is planning to emerge from his home says this is not a continuing tragedy.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on August 31, 2020, 01:50:08 PM

1.  The number of cases is small as a percentage of the population, and majority of infections are inconsequential if not asymptomatic.

We can't really say that with any authority.  Long term consequences are not well known.

   
Quote
            a.  If elderly or having underlying conditions, definitely stay home.  Depend on friends and family to provide for you.

This comprises the majority of Americans. 

Quote
The fact that someone with Joe's views is planning to emerge from his home says this is not a continuing tragedy.   

Meanwhile, in other countries where very low levels of infections were achieved and are being maintained along with infected folks quickly found and isolated, everyone, even those with underlying conditions can circulate quite normally and in relative safety by taking simple, prudent measures.  Such is too risky where very high levels of uncontrolled infections exist.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on August 31, 2020, 02:25:01 PM
We can't really say that with any authority.  Long term consequences are not well known.

Just because something is in the "not well known" category, doesn't mean it is very harmful.  Assuming everything could be bad will paralyze society. 

   
Quote
This comprises the majority of Americans. 
 

Sounds like one of my jokes.  Now I understand something may be funny to me but others not think it humorous. 

Quote
Meanwhile, in other countries where very low levels of infections were achieved and are being maintained along with infected folks quickly found and isolated, everyone, even those with underlying conditions can circulate quite normally and in relative safety by taking simple, prudent measures.  Such is too risky where very high levels of uncontrolled infections exist.

Quick.  Tell Joe Biden is not safe to come out of his basement.  Joe's "coming out" means he will now do what the rest of us have been doing for the past 6 months. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 01, 2020, 02:15:04 AM
Just because something is in the "not well known" category, doesn't mean it is very harmful.  Assuming everything could be bad will paralyze society. 

Neither does it make them 'inconsequential'.  Heart, lung, brain issues have been reported and are being studied.  Possibly other organs as well
     

Quote
Sounds like one of my jokes.  Now I understand something may be funny to me but others not think it humorous. 

http://www.rand.org/blog/rand-review/2017/07/chronic-conditions-in-america-price-and-prevalence.html

Again, we don't really know all the chronic conditions that make covid worse.  Some studies mention 45% have at least one condition but this is based on surveys and folks reporting that their doctor mentioned they had one.

Quote
Quick.  Tell Joe Biden is not safe to come out of his basement.  Joe's "coming out" means he will now do what the rest of us have been doing for the past 6 months.

He is likely being as prudent as you and I are.  I don't have a basement and doubt you are hiding in one if you do have one.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on September 01, 2020, 05:07:15 AM
The demographic reasons for the higher mortality in some other countries is clear.  Regarding healthcare, look a the section in the link I sent entitled 'The U.S. has the highest rate of deaths amenable to health care among comparable countries'

A country can have a great healthcare system, but its value is degraded in terms of mortality if for whatever reason is not available to many.  Lack of insurance and high deductibles may well be a reason for folks not being able to benefit.  I do agree that if everyone could get the high level of healthcare available in the US, we might improve other areas that need improvement like maternal and infant mortality and make up for some other factors like overdose deaths that drive up our mortality figures.

Consider life expectancy as a measure of overall health and healthcare performance as well.

http://www.infoplease.com/world/health-and-social-statistics/life-expectancy-countries

Interesting take despite the fact most Western European nation have a much higher rate of mortality.

As for healthcare and general health, a great illustration of this is what’s going on with the current pandemic, more notably CFR. Take California v Italy for example. Our positive case is much more prevalent than that of Italy but WOW look at how many more Italians didn’t fare so well under Italy’s healthcare system.

One can make a case higher population of older folks, BUT, as CDC now reports, the very vast majority of people succumbing to COVID are those with at least one underlying condition vs those who died of the virus alone.

Numbers don’t lie.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 01, 2020, 05:41:44 AM
He is likely being as prudent as you and I are. 

For sure, but he could have done the same earlier. 


Quote
I don't have a basement and doubt you are hiding in one if you do have one.

Joe has a basement and there is where he sheltered day after day.   Why?  Was he delivering the message that it is too dangerous to venture outside because of Trump's COVID policies?   Or was it a rope-a-dope strategy and Joe will be surprisingly adroit in debating Trump? 

Thank Gawd most of America continued to venture outside and work. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 01, 2020, 06:22:05 AM

Again, we don't really know all the chronic conditions that make covid worse. 

With hundreds of thousands of deaths in Western societies known for reliable data, surely the government scientists-statisticians  have  a reasonable idea.  Why don't they report such information?

In the US I have seen many estimates suggesting somewhere between 40-60% of the COVID deaths were from infections originating in long term care and nursing facilities.  This clearly states that advanced age is the number one risk factor.   

Is it advanced age alone, or some mix of underlying conditions widely prevalent in the aged?  Because the elderly have multiple conditions (folks, it's called "getting old"), maybe there is no clear pattern as to immune response: susceptibility, response to different treatments, rate of advancement of symptoms, mortality, etc. 

I assert the nursing home population needs the best protection.  Are they  receiving the best protection?  For example, are they tested with the same frequency accorded our athletes playing team sports?  And virtually all those athletes who test "positive" show few symptoms and return to active competition in two weeks or so.   

PROTECT THE ELDERLY - DO NOT SHUT DOWN THE WORKING AGE

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 01, 2020, 06:31:31 AM
Some interesting developments about a different category of therapeutic medicines -  administer interferons to infected patients. 

WASHINGTON POST:

Quote
The coronavirus disarms the foot soldiers of the immune system. Scientists theorize that boosting them could fight covid-19.

Several trials are underway to see whether giving patients interferons early might prevent severe disease — or hasten recovery.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 01, 2020, 06:58:40 AM
Interesting take despite the fact most Western European nation have a much higher rate of mortality.

Of which much, maybe all the difference can be accounted for by age demographics.  More older people, more deaths.

Quote
As for healthcare and general health, a great illustration of this is what’s going on with the current pandemic, more notably CFR. Take California v Italy for example. Our positive case is much more prevalent than that of Italy but WOW look at how many more Italians didn’t fare so well under Italy’s healthcare system.

CFR is a 'fuzzy' number as we do not know how many have been infected in the US nor Italy, nor any other country.  We know only those that have tested positive.  What might be worthwhile following up on is the CFR of a particular comparable age group but haven't seen such.  Have you?   Also CFR changes over time.  We may know more about CFR when the virus threat is pretty much over.

Quote
One can make a case higher population of older folks, BUT, as CDC now reports, the very vast majority of people succumbing to COVID are those with at least one underlying condition vs those who died of the virus alone.

Old age is an 'underlying condition' as the immune system wanes with age.

Quote
Numbers don’t lie.

Indeed they don't.  Within the next week or so, deaths per million in the US will overtake deaths per million in Italy.  Currently 567 dpm (US) and 587 dpm (Italy).  This is much earlier than even I expected.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 01, 2020, 07:11:03 AM
Or was it a rope-a-dope strategy and Joe will be surprisingly adroit in debating Trump? 

Thank Gawd most of America continued to venture outside and work.

Well Trump does have a way of digging his own hole, so why try to stop him.

2.5 million active cases in the US should certainly not be working.  We'll see again on Thursday how many are currently unemployed.  Several financial support measures and obligations of companies that took loans to keep folks on the payroll are expiring IIRC, so we might be in for a sad surprise these coming weeks.  Ditto for additional financial assistance for unemployed.  Many rents and mortgages are overdue and lenders will want their money as well.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 01, 2020, 07:27:39 AM
With hundreds of thousands of deaths in Western societies known for reliable data, surely the government scientists-statisticians  have  a reasonable idea.  Why don't they report such information?

It is tough enough to gather information regarding deaths, much less detailed patient history for those who thus far have suffered health consequences.

Quote
In the US I have seen many estimates suggesting somewhere between 40-60% of the COVID deaths were from infections originating in long term care and nursing facilities.  This clearly states that advanced age is the number one risk factor.   

Yes, our immune system is inherently weaker the older we are.

Quote
Is it advanced age alone, or some mix of underlying conditions widely prevalent in the aged?  Because the elderly have multiple conditions (folks, it's called "getting old"), maybe there is no clear pattern as to immune response: susceptibility, response to different treatments, rate of advancement of symptoms, mortality, etc.


Again, something we may find out more of in the future.

[/quote]I assert the nursing home population needs the best protection.  Are they  receiving the best protection?  For example, are they tested with the same frequency accorded our athletes playing team sports?  And virtually all those athletes who test "positive" show few symptoms and return to active competition in two weeks or so.   

PROTECT THE ELDERLY - DO NOT SHUT DOWN THE WORKING AGE
[/quote]

Surely those in nursing homes need the best protection.  We have learned that.  We also know that even those at much younger ages, even children can die without apparent health conditions.  Even a very small percentage can represent a large number of deaths which is why it is imperative, and the highest priority to keep folks from getting infected in the first place.  It is the only factor we have the ability to control successfully (if the will exists).
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 01, 2020, 09:15:06 AM
BC, we agree.  That is why I am bewildered by your strategy of prolonged closing the economy.   The problem is with those individuals who  choose not to practice safe measures when working and socializing,  and then returning home to infect older members of the family. 

The story continues to unfold.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: jone on September 01, 2020, 09:52:22 AM
Weekly totals in California substantially below normal flu deaths.   For the entire state, yesterday, COVID deaths were 28.   Moreover, most of those deaths were from lingering symptoms and the disease was contracted months ago. 

It seems that the infection rate is greatly reduced.   But, even more so, it appears that the COVID infections on the West Coast are less virulent than those on the East Coast and not deadly.   This was a predicted outcome of the ongoing mutation of the disease.

Maintain social distancing.   Require masks.   Maintain the restriction on large gatherings.

 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on September 01, 2020, 10:13:31 AM
Of which much, maybe all the difference can be accounted for by age demographics.  More older people, more deaths.

Not true. If certain population is *living longer* then it's easy to ascertain death comes earlier to those who do not.

Quote
CFR is a 'fuzzy' number as we do not know how many have been infected in the US nor Italy, nor any other country.  We know only those that have tested positive.  What might be worthwhile following up on is the CFR of a particular comparable age group but haven't seen such.  Have you?   Also CFR changes over time.  We may know more about CFR when the virus threat is pretty much over.

Funny that. It used to be your gold standard. Body counts tell a different story unfortunately.

The hypothesis the number of testing increase the number of positive cases, thereby decreasing the CFR, then it still goes back to healthcare system. An efficient one will immediately mobilize all facilities to accommodate wider testing, just like our great POTUS have done. Wonderful job, Trump!

Quote
Old age is an 'underlying condition' as the immune system wanes with age.

Old age is a state, not a condition. CDC reports fatality is much, much higher on those with at least one underlying condition. After all, not all the elderly stricken with the virus died.

Quote
Indeed they don't.  Within the next week or so, deaths per million in the US will overtake deaths per million in Italy.  Currently 567 dpm (US) and 587 dpm (Italy).  This is much earlier than even I expected.

It still doesn't change reality that Italy amass a greater mortality rate than the US. Healthcare system and all...as for Italy vs US, have you prepared those graphs of Montana vs EU yet?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 01, 2020, 10:26:01 AM
BC, we agree.  That is why I am bewildered by your strategy of prolonged closing the economy.   


Actually it is not prolonged. 45 days lockdown and 45 days planned back to 'new normal' which is where we are at.  Infections low enough to test, track and isolate, economy recovering without having to revert to more drastic measures.

Currently here 26,000 infected in isolation or hospital and 107 in intensive care.  Adjusted for US (multiplied by 5.5) population that would represent 143,000 infected and 588 in serious/critical care.  Current figures for the US, however, are 2.5 million active cases that should be in isolation and close to 16,000 in serious/critical care.

Consider the additional burden on the health system and economy for 15 thousand critical care and 2.35 million in isolation, many out of work for a few weeks (or at least should be).  Add to that folks that are more confident going shopping and to work over here due to lower risk.

As for deaths, addressed that a few posts back.

IOW, yes pain of a full lockdown is higher, but the whole recovery timeline is reduced and progress thereafter speedier and less costly.  Really, except for the masks life seems to be quite normal.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 01, 2020, 10:39:36 AM
Not true. If certain population is *living longer* then it's easy to ascertain death comes earlier to those who do not.

You're gonna have to help me with this statement.  Doesn't seem to make much sense logically.  Maybe rephrase?

Quote
Funny that. It used to be your gold standard. Body counts tell a different story unfortunately.

I can't recall having dwelled on CFR.  I do recall leaning on infection data, but that was when testing criteria was pretty much same, only folks with serious symptoms going into a hospital environment.  I now consider positivity rates and deaths per capita as the best indicators.

Quote
The hypothesis the number of testing increase the number of positive cases, thereby decreasing the CFR, then it still goes back to healthcare system. An efficient one will immediately mobilize all facilities to accommodate wider testing, just like our great POTUS have done. Wonderful job, Trump!

Testing is most effective in the initial stages, to isolate as many as possible before they infect others.  Lockdown serves the same purpose.  Long waits for test results makes testing much less effective.

Quote
Old age is a state, not a condition. CDC reports fatality is much, much higher on those with at least one underlying condition. After all, not all the elderly stricken with the virus died.

Old age and underlying conditions go hand in hand.

Quote
It still doesn't change reality that Italy amass a greater mortality rate than the US. Healthcare system and all...as for Italy vs US, have you prepared those graphs of Montana vs EU yet?

Feel free to counter the data and analysis I presented with your own data and analysis.  If you feel comparing Montana and EU is relevant, state your hypothesis and present your data.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on September 01, 2020, 11:06:25 AM
You're gonna have to help me with this statement.  Doesn't seem to make much sense logically.  Maybe rephrase?

No need. It's a very simple fact.

Quote
I can't recall having dwelled on CFR.  I do recall leaning on infection data, but that was when testing criteria was pretty much same, only folks with serious symptoms going into a hospital environment.  I now consider positivity rates and deaths per capita as the best indicators

Oh I do...you even expressed trying to find the proper definition for it until the term became trendy..but I know conveniently moving the goal post when convenient is an exercise people resort to now and then.

Quote
Testing is most effective in the initial stages, to isolate as many as possible before they infect others.

Oh I agree. We thank Trump for such an amazing leader for this development.

Quote
Lockdown serves the same purpose.  Long waits for test results makes testing much less effective.

I don't quite agree. Sheltering the vulnerable to me is so much more efficient overall - all things considered.

Quote
Old age and underlying conditions go hand in hand.

Again, not true.

Quote
Feel free to counter the data and analysis I presented with your own data and analysis.  If you feel comparing Montana and EU is relevant, state your hypothesis and present your data.

Not for me really, I think comparing states and countries is a very futile exercise, especially when accompanied with graphs.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 01, 2020, 11:22:17 AM
No need. It's a very simple fact.

Maybe someone else can read your statement and help me understand?  Boethius? Gator? anyone?

Quote
Oh I do...you even expressed trying to find the proper definition for it until the term became trendy..but I know conveniently moving the goal post when convenient is an exercise people resort to now and then.

No goalposts at all, just getting definitions straight at the time.

Quote
Oh I agree. We thank Trump for such an amazing leader for this development.

Plenty of testing, unfortunately late in the game.  We are not in 'initial stages'.  Does serve well to monitor positivity though.

Quote
I don't quite agree. Sheltering the vulnerable to me is so much more efficient overall - all things considered.

That is quite ok, we can agree to disagree.

Quote
Again, not true.

Ditto last quote.

Quote
Not for me really, I think comparing states and countries is a very futile exercise, especially when accompanied with graphs.

Some comparisons may be more helpful than others, depends on the context of the discussion at hand.

BTW, since you seem interested in health and mortality data, here is another source with a lot of variables listed.  Be sure to click on the show 'ALL' at the bottom of the page.
 http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Italy/United-States/Health

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on September 01, 2020, 11:47:20 AM
Maybe someone else can read your statement and help me understand?  Boethius? Gator? anyone?

I'll even repost yours and mine to make it easier for anyone.

You said:
Of which much, maybe all the difference can be accounted for by age demographics.  More older people, more deaths.

I responded with:
>> Not true. If certain population is *living longer* then it's easy to ascertain death comes earlier to those who do not.<<

Quote
No goalposts at all, just getting definitions straight at the time.

Ahh the moveable goal post is not even necessary anymore. I see...

Quote
Plenty of testing, unfortunately late in the game.  We are not in 'initial stages'.  Does serve well to monitor positivity though.

It's never too late AFAIK. Although from where you are that may seem to be the case based on the CFR. Novel virus such as COVID demand a very complex testing development protocol, and considering the challenges CDC created on the onset of the pandemic here in the US - made it even more remarkable how Trump and the team was able to face that challenges and be the world leader in the amount of testing we can do these days. I know those testing kits Italy got from China didn't fare so well. It's all about healthcare system's efficiency really.

Quote
That is quite ok, we can agree to disagree.

Japan fared well in this pandemic considering they're likely have an 'older' population than most. Japan does have a great healthcare system though. So methinks your theory is out the window...

Quote
Ditto last quote.

Hear, hear!

Quote
Some comparisons may be more helpful than others, depends on the context of the discussion at hand.

Again, same response here. A very dire exercise in futility.

Quote
BTW, since you seem interested in health and mortality data, here is another source with a lot of variables listed.  Be sure to click on the show 'ALL' at the bottom of the page.
 http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Italy/United-States/Health

No need. I previously provided the link you asked for originally and it more than served the purpose. Most Western European nations have a far higher rate of mortality when all is said and done.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 02, 2020, 05:52:54 PM

Birx and Fauci say herd mentality is not a strategy of our government.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/white-house-s-birx-denies-herd-immunity-policy-under-consideration/ar-BB18DRsF?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds

http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/coronavirus/that-s-certainly-not-my-approach-fauci-rejects-pursuing-herd-immunity/ar-BB18DYIr?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds


My wife has a Ukrainian friend working in the medical field. They called her friend up and said her Black Lives Matter tee shirt was ready to be picked up. She replied "When you have an "All Lives Matter" tee shirt, I'll come pick it up." They hung up on her.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 02, 2020, 07:35:21 PM


A little info about the Russian and Chinese vaccines that came out. It's basically injecting live harmless cold viruses that carry the target virus's gene to help our immune system recognize the target virus a little better should we later get it. This type of vaccine has been around for decades but not widely used. The downside is that the vaccine won't be very effective since many people already have immunity to the harmless cold virus which would get immediately attacked when injected into bodies.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/scientists-see-downsides-top-covid-101052832.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 03, 2020, 06:03:56 AM

The downside is that the vaccine won't be very effective since many people already have immunity to the harmless cold virus which would get immediately attacked when injected into bodies.


Yes and no. 

Yes, the body's immune system will recognize the viral vector (cold virus) as a  threat and attack it. 

No, Russia claims the immunization resulted in the production of the intended antibodies (those that defuse the coronoa spikes).

We must await the results of the massive testing program now underway in Russia, especially how long the intended antibodies remain active.  Durability is almost as important as safety and efficacy. 

The US-EU companies developing vaccines having a similar viral vector platform are purposefully using viruses from chimps, etc. because of these questions about using human viruses.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on September 05, 2020, 06:06:32 PM

The US-EU companies developing vaccines having a similar viral vector platform are purposefully using viruses from chimps, etc. because of these questions about using human viruses.

Just what we need.

A vaccine that may turn us back into monkeys.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 06, 2020, 07:11:29 AM
Just what we need.

A vaccine that may turn us back into monkeys.

Reports from the phased clinical trials have not reported any instances of knuckle dragging.   ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 06, 2020, 10:03:32 PM

India averages around 90,000 new cases every day. China with a similar sized population and where the virus originated has 85,100 cases total in 9 months! Great job China and thanks for the accurate reporting!  Anybody else notice Communist nations know how to handle the virus better than other nations?

http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on September 06, 2020, 10:40:27 PM
BillyB,

I also notice 'lands of the free' had 43k+  new cases.. 

India has 4 times more people.. 'only' 1.5 times more new cases....

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 06, 2020, 11:10:24 PM
BillyB,

I also notice 'lands of the free' had 43k+  new cases.. 

India has 4 times more people.. 'only' 1.5 times more new cases....

By being more honest than other nations, the truth is uglier here. It's about to get more ugly. NY is going to start testing the dead for COVID since some people who died by COVID don't get counted.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/new-york-will-test-the-dead-more-often-for-coronavirus-and-flu/ar-BB18LFCe?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 07, 2020, 09:25:34 AM

France is setting records for new daily cases. French lawmakers rule out a blanket lockdown like the one that crushed France's economy in the Spring. UK is also experiencing another outbreak. Spain's second outbreak looks as bad as the first when it comes to cases. Italy is losing control too. Since the middle of July, America's daily case count has been decreasing. Maybe Europe should call Trump and ask for advice.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/we-are-in-the-second-wave-europe-on-edge-as-cases-spike/ar-BB18N2cz?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on September 07, 2020, 09:54:00 AM
France is setting records for new daily cases. French lawmakers rule out a blanket lockdown like the one that crushed France's economy in the Spring. UK is also experiencing another outbreak. Spain's second outbreak looks as bad as the first when it comes to cases. Italy is losing control too. Since the middle of July, America's daily case count has been decreasing. Maybe Europe should call Trump and ask for advice.

Oh BillyB

On August 31st   31,658  Sept 4th 50,183  You may call that 'decreasing' ...

The French and Spanish, NL and B also have many times the new case rate of the UK, but as I have posted, ours is going up, again, too

The French kids went back to school and  more people went back to work ..

This isn't over until there's a cure/vaccine or social distancing / isolation..

'Trampu' isn't the only leader covering their ears and hoping it'll go away
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 07, 2020, 10:05:14 AM
France the UK and Spain are a bit worrisome but don't know what their positivity rate is or if their tracing can keep up.  Italy numbers are up but positivity still averaging under 2% with number of daily infections that is still traceable. Testing has doubled to around 100k/day.  Overall reasonable considering August is the big vacation season, huge numbers at beaches and otherwise on vacation.  Lots of EU tourists as well.  Can't say there are as many overseas tourists as before the crisis, but enough so that I skip the beach on weekends and lounge around the pool instead.

Sadly the US will surpass Italy in the number of deaths per million early this week leaving Spain and Belgium as the only EU outliers including UK for a short time.  We'll certainly end up nr 3 in the world for deaths per million and keep the nr 1 spot in total deaths along with hitting the 200k+ death mark this month.  Bottom line we're ending up not doing better than anyone else, and with doing a lot worse than most in sight..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 07, 2020, 10:10:10 AM
On August 31st   31,658  Sept 4th 50,183  You may call that 'decreasing' ...


Although you use facts, you still deceive. No wonder you like anti Trump news. We've gone over this before. There are days in a week where medical professionals are slow to report so cases and deaths reported will be low but there are days when reports catch up so the count will be much higher. So you chose a day in a week where the count is lowest to compare to a day later in the week where the count is it's highest to give the impression cases in America are on the rise. I told you months ago how to draw a straight line through a chart to get a better idea of what is happening. Draw a straight line through America's chart below starting in the middle of July and let me know if it's going up or down.


Bottom line we're ending up not doing better than anyone else, and with doing a lot worse than most in sight.


You're looking at short term damages. Long term damages to economies and the living will be determined years from now. I wasn't serious when I said Europe should call Trump for advice. It's silly to claim bragging rights so early in this Pandemic.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on September 07, 2020, 10:14:54 AM
Although you use facts, you still deceive.

No, I chose two days that show YOU were hoping I'd not check ..

Your nations new case rate is STILL WAY above the UK's in proportion

I'm looking at saving folks lives
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 07, 2020, 10:29:12 AM
I'm looking at saving folks lives


There's a way to save everybody's life but at the same time it will ruin life for ALL the living. Complete shutdown of the economy and everybody stay home with the government paying you to stay there. In the pursuit of trying to save every single life, it'll exponentially increase the amount of ruined lives due to shutting down the economy. Some businesses will never open back up once they close. America is protecting the elderly by keeping them from the general population, allow students to do classes online and put healthy adults to work. America put more of our people back to work before Europe so we may end up coming out of this economically better.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 07, 2020, 10:32:00 AM
You're looking at short term damages. Long term damages to economies and the living will be determined years from now. I wasn't serious when I said Europe should call Trump for advice. It's silly to claim bragging rights so early in this Pandemic.

I am thinking long term.

In another thread I posted:

It is going to take at least another year even with vaccines to fight this bug down at the rate we are going.  Other nations are in much less dire circumstances and can even live without a vaccine if necessary.

If a country can keep infections low they keep deaths low and also reduce risk of longer term health problems and economic damage.  It is much easier to mitigate rising numbers of infections than to beat them down.  We haven't learned, nor achieved that yet Billy and I doubt we will unless something dramatic happens.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on September 07, 2020, 10:39:49 AM

America put more of our people back to work before Europe

Indeed, we see the effect ..

so we may end up coming out of this economically better.

You mean like Sweden has? ..  Talk to Finland
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on September 07, 2020, 10:41:05 AM
No, I chose two days that show YOU were hoping I'd not check ..

Your nations new case rate is STILL WAY above the UK's in proportion

I'm looking at saving folks lives

Saving lives?

So you now support immediate implementation of hydroxychloroquin with Z pak?

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on September 07, 2020, 10:44:21 AM
Indeed, we see the effect ..

You mean like Sweden has? ..  Talk to Finland

Sweden is doing great.

No doubt you will argue otherwise.

Who knows how much your Globalist paymasters pay you however it's enough for you to constantly do their bidding with your false propaganda.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on September 07, 2020, 10:51:02 AM
Saving lives?

So you now support immediate implementation of hydroxychloroquin with Z pak?

Given the use of HCQ offers no efficacy to serious COVID-19 complications... hardly

You may be confusing a very cost effective steroid that actually HAS helped ..dexamethasone ..

Always glad to help

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on September 07, 2020, 10:55:09 AM
Sweden is doing great.

'Sure' it is .. That would be why it is a constant member of the quarantine list nations for the UK - with the US

That would be why it's QTR 2 economy fared worse by two percentage points  than Finland, whilst proportionately killing 10 times more citizens

That would be why the 'anti-bodies present' level in Stockholm is less than 10 percent - assuming you believed in 'herd immunity'


Who knows how much your Globalist paymasters pay you however it's enough for you to constantly do their bidding with your false propaganda.

Please could you fact-check and point out any 'false' fact...above ?

In the meantime, could you please get your 'contacts' to inform my pay-masters that their 'payments' don't seem  to be arriving .. :popcorn:

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 07, 2020, 11:00:02 AM
Sweden is doing great.

No doubt you will argue otherwise.


Sweden is indeed doing better than the US in deaths per million now.  We whizzed right past them a couple days ago.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 07, 2020, 12:09:40 PM
Sweden is indeed doing better than the US in deaths per million now.  We whizzed right past them a couple days ago.

What is the death count for Red State America?  Even in red states most deaths occurred in Democrat areas, e. g., in my state of Florida the strong Democrat areas of SE Florida experienced the most deaths. 

Democrats claim again and again that Trump mismanaged the pandemic.  I recall vividly in the critical days last spring Cuomo holding widely televised press conferences daily  about what NYS is doing.  Cuomo got more air time than Trump.
 
And which state leads the US in deaths?   NY 2::1 vs. second place NJ, also a blue state.  Sounds like to me given our Federalism, the Democrats are hypocritical to say this is Trump's fault. 

But integrity has no currency when trying to regain power so they can give away those tax dollars.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 07, 2020, 12:30:13 PM
LIFE IS RETURNING TO NORMAL

Not there yet, but we have progress.

Florida, an epicenter a month ago with 10,000 new cases per day reported  1,812 new cases yesterday, only 59 hospitalizations, and 22 deaths.

Daily data can vary, yet the death totals this week are very promising: for my county of 1.5 million. 

  Day         My County Deaths 

Sep 7                       0                                           
Sep 6                       3
Sep 5                       1
Sep 4                       2
Sep 3                       2
Sep 2                       3
Sep 1                       0
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 07, 2020, 12:54:49 PM
ANOTHER SIGN OF RETURNING TO NORMAL

PROFESSIONAL SPORTS


No fans in the stadiums, yet.   Instead of fretting about the pandemic,  unemployment,  debt, and virtual-schooling, Americans can be entertained by the return of sports competition. 


In Tampa we have much to celebrate. 

     -  Our hockey team, the Lightning,  is playing New York in the semi-finals for the Stanley Cup (that's the NHL championship).

     -  Our baseball team, the Rays, has the second best record in the Major Leagues and a 6 1/2 game lead over the Yankees, with only 19 games to go.    The Yankees team payroll is $155 million vs.  the Rays payroll of $52 million (power to the little guy).   

    -  And most anticipated, our football team the Bucs, led by the newly required Tom Brady, is anticipating a playoff run for the first time in a long, long time.  One caveat -  Tom is 43. 

For sports enthusiasts such as me, this is fun but taking a lot of my time.  There is also NCAA football returning for about half of our universities. 

There is much over/under betting about whether the season schedules will be completed, yet so far, so good.  Baseball had a rocky start with teams having as as many as 20 players/coaches become infected.   Everyone has returned after a full recovery. 

Another day closer to the end of this, with fans in the stands.
     

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on September 07, 2020, 03:43:47 PM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/gv090720dAPR20200906094511.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on September 07, 2020, 10:57:56 PM
LIFE IS RETURNING TO NORMAL

Not there yet, but we have progress.

Florida, an epicenter a month ago with 10,000 new cases per day reported  1,812 new cases yesterday, only 59 hospitalizations, and 22 deaths.

Daily data can vary, yet the death totals this week are very promising: for my county of 1.5 million. 

  Day         My County Deaths 

Sep 7                       0                                           
Sep 6                       3
Sep 5                       1
Sep 4                       2
Sep 3                       2
Sep 2                       3
Sep 1                       0

I hope you are right, Gator

The UK ( nearly 70 million)  or approx 5 times less people has been having FAR less cases ..

Last week the kids went back to school in N.Ireland,England and Wales and suddenly cases are spiking, drastically ..Scotland has had spikes since they sent back, too.

The Rep. of Ireland - which even quarantined folk coming from GB - was worse, before the UK spike ?!

The problem?  People started behaving, normally  >:(

MY county  has been seeing falls for three months and the last two weeks saw less than fifty new cases ( population 634k )

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/EhUuwcJXcAAoFyB?format=jpg)

and no deaths ..  That  would be c.140 cases if your county


Your 'normal' is scary to me .. and if other parts of the UK and Ireland are climbing...  I expect we'll be back to 'locking up' our Ma, again (




 






Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 08, 2020, 01:18:45 AM
What is the death count for Red State America?

Gator,

When the virus was hitting NY hard, folks said 'but.. the US has a lot fewer deaths than other countries.  When we had more deaths than other countries we said: "per capita, we're doing fine man, really great, we got this".  Then the virus spread and we went to 'red better than blue' states, then 'my state' now we're down to 'my county', and always, it was 'democrat led city' problem.  The slice of the American pie is getting razor-thin, very quick.

It just goes back to the old' 'If I am ok, all is ok'; 'if something's wrong, it's their fault' stinking thinking that is the very root of our American problem.  If we want to tout being the Great United States of America, we also need to take responsibility for it and all of it. 

Pick any red state, and I'll show you a region in Italy that is lower.  Pick any county, and I'll find a province in Italy that is lower, pick a town, and I can do the same.  Along those same lines, folks here could have blamed 'those damned northerners' (and yes there is a political division in Italy also) in Lombardy and Milan all day long and it doesn't change a thing.

But such is meaningless rationalisation, a manner of thinking that somehow gives us false comfort from the truth we do not want to see. Neither does it change any facts. First, Florida was somehow immune and then got hit, off to the top 3 of the charts.  It is really great things are improving there, but the virus doesn't care and ain't leaving anytime soon.  It still owns you to the tune of 553 deaths per million to Italy's 588, but growing much faster at an average rate of 100 per day vs 10 per day for a country with 3 times the population.  Add to that a positivity rate in Italy that hovers around 2% vs over 13% in Florida. These are facts that even startled me.

Yeah, it got really bad here in Italy, really bad... but by working together the Italians and other countries turned it around and owned this virus. For sure a hard winter season is ahead, and it's far from over, but I'm confident they'll suck it up and work together as a country again to stay on top of things and do much better than the first time.  Unfortunately, I don't have the same confidence in the US or even Florida.

For all the finger-pointing, criticism and even ridicule of how others were doing so badly for many months, despite the most expensive health system in the world and the 'greatest' of leaders, we now know as a fact that we were not able to do better than 'them' and are now headed towards being a lot worse off than almost every other country on the planet because of only one reason: We haven't learned to work together as a nation.  Maybe we should start calling ourselves the "United only in Geography States of America" instead?

Our last gasp excuse in these discussions seems to be: '...but we are free!!' but think about that a bit. If we no longer have the capacity to recognise and fight a common enemy, how can we call ourselves free?  To do so is either ignorant or arrogant.

Again, the virus is not killing us; we are, with no one to blame but ourselves.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 08, 2020, 05:37:36 AM

The problem?  People started behaving, normally  >:(



Correct!   That was and still is the problem, compounded by the large number of asymptomatic yet infectious cases. 

SARS had a higher CFR, yet was transmissible only with symptomatic cases. 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 08, 2020, 06:13:07 AM

When the virus was hitting NY hard, folks said 'but.. the US has a lot fewer deaths than other countries.  When we had more deaths than other countries we said: "per capita, we're doing fine man, really great, we got this".  Then the virus spread and we went to 'red better than blue' states, then 'my state' now we're down to 'my county', and always, it was 'democrat led city' problem.  The slice of the American pie is getting razor-thin, very quick.

It just goes back to the old' 'If I am ok, all is ok'; 'if something's wrong, it's their fault' stinking thinking that is the very root of our American problem.  If we want to tout being the Great United States of America, we also need to take responsibility for it and all of it. 

Pick any red state, and I'll show you a region in Italy that is lower.  Pick any county, and I'll find a province in Italy that is lower, pick a town, and I can do the same.  Along those same lines, folks here could have blamed 'those damned northerners' (and yes there is a political division in Italy also) in Lombardy and Milan all day long and it doesn't change a thing.

A view from 30,000 feet.  Come down to the ground where critical decisions were made.  And rethink this attitude that it is Trump's fault.     

Go to the epicenter in the Spring.....New York.   In the first surge of the infection, Trump quickly expanded hospital capacity.  The governor decided not to use these additional beds and instead returned recovering cases to their nursing homes.  BOOM!   And Biden says this is Trump's fault. 

And you echo the same in your own way as if Trump had control over young people finding ways to socialize and then returning home to infect their family.   And Biden says this is Trump's fault as if Trump should have known COVID-19's asymptomatic pathways for transmission were significant.   And Biden says it is Trump's fault as if the issue was only about public health, with economic health not even a consideration.


Quote
....now headed towards being a lot worse off than almost every other country on the planet because of only one reason: We haven't learned to work together as a nation. 

And what party has obstructed Trump at every turn, even starting before he was elected?   I assert much of what ails the nation would be better if the Democrats worked together with their Republican counterpart as done in the long history of our nation.      No need if the press will cover for you and it is deemed the only way to regain power. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on September 08, 2020, 06:18:18 AM

For all the finger-pointing, criticism and even ridicule of how others were doing so badly for many months, despite the most expensive health system in the world and the 'greatest' of leaders, we now know as a fact that we were not able to do better than 'them' and are now headed towards being a lot worse off than almost every other country on the planet because of only one reason: We haven't learned to work together as a nation.  Maybe we should start calling ourselves the "United only in Geography States of America" instead?
 
We here in the states will still find a way to deflect and criticize other nations response while pounding our collective chest insisting we are better. 


Our last gasp excuse in these discussions seems to be: '...but we are free!!' but think about that a bit. If we no longer have the capacity to recognise and fight a common enemy, how can we call ourselves free?  To do so is either ignorant or arrogant.

Again, the virus is not killing us; we are, with no one to blame but ourselves.


We are less free than other nations nowadays.  We (US citizens) are not welcome in travel destination nations because the virus is deemed out of control here.   Europeans are welcome in those same places.   So looking at things that way we are less free than 'they' are.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on September 08, 2020, 06:20:45 AM

And what party has obstructed Trump at every turn, even starting before he was elected?   I assert much of what ails the nation would be better if the Democrats worked together with their Republican counterpart as done in the long history of our nation.      No need if the press will cover for you and it is deemed the only way to regain power.
...all that we would do is need to change Trump to obama, and democrat to republican and it would represent what obama dealt with for 8 years.   The bias you carry is noted and a part of the problem.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on September 08, 2020, 08:30:52 AM
Sheesh...so much silly drama in this *competition*. Cases in Europe had been on the rise for the month of August. Just like any other places or country.

Get a grip. No one is going to be in a situation where the healthcare facilities will be playing god soon to choose who dies or live. At least not in the US anyway...

Everything is politicized. One thing I know for sure, as a Republican and those like me, our farts smell like roses.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 08, 2020, 08:55:00 AM
A view from 30,000 feet.  Come down to the ground where critical decisions were made.  And rethink this attitude that it is Trump's fault.     

Go to the epicenter in the Spring.....New York.   In the first surge of the infection, Trump quickly expanded hospital capacity.  The governor decided not to use these additional beds and instead returned recovering cases to their nursing homes.  BOOM!   And Biden says this is Trump's fault.

Gator,

Your reply seems to show denial and deflection. I didn't mention Trump but instead 'we' as a people failing.  But ok, what Trump did for NY is great, but it was damage control but did not address the problem of the virus spreading.  The virus problem could have been restricted to the NE coast as it was already well contained on the west coast at the time. Had the virus been contained as elsewhere we wouldn't have even half the deaths we do today nor the financial consequences. Trump was not a proactive leader getting ahead of the virus and never had a plan to do so, his whole intent was to try and save the economy for his own benefit, all the while believing something would save the day for him, some medicine or that the virus would magically go away with summer.  He made bad bets for the nation and lost, even against the advice of some of the best advisors.



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 08, 2020, 09:45:56 AM
'we' as a people failing. 


Maybe people are just being people and that is not a fail. Thousands of liberals attending Burning man festival in multiple locations. Since the event was cancelled, they made their own events. After their done, they'll go back to criticizing Trump for his failure to enact policies to stop the spread.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/thousands-of-burning-man-fans-violated-social-distancing-laws-to-hold-their-own-festivals-in-the-nevada-desert-and-on-california-beaches/ar-BB18NvDz?li=BBnb7Kz


Trump was not a proactive leader getting ahead of the virus and never had a plan to do so, his whole intent was to try and save the economy for his own benefit, all the while believing something would save the day for him, some medicine or that the virus would magically go away with summer.


That's your opinion, not fact. When Trump shut down flights from China, he did it to stop the virus from entering the USA for our benefit. How could he think it was to save his economy at that time? If you looked what happened in China and the data they released, the virus didn't look that bad. While the Democrats were busy impeaching Trump, they didn't care about working with Trump to stop the growing pandemic. They even criticized Trump for taking harsh action against China calling it a racist move. Then Pelosi recommended people to come to China Town in San Fran and NYC mayor telling his citizens to go out and eat. They were thinking about saving their local economies ignoring the growing danger of the virus spreading in our nation.

You can twist things anyway you want but the facts are Red States and cities are doing better than Blue States and cities when handling the virus and their local economies aren't suffering as much.


He made bad bets for the nation and lost, even against the advice of some of the best advisors.


Fauci said Trump always listened to his advice. Luckily Fauci was not advising Trump in January when he shut down people coming in from China because Fauci was against travel bans. Even the infectious disease experts from WHO advised against travel bans because it would unnecessarily hurt nations economies.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 08, 2020, 10:12:17 AM
Maybe people are just being people and that is not a fail.

It is when we don't learn from the mistakes of others.

Quote
That's your opinion, not fact. When Trump shut down flights from China, he did it to stop the virus from entering the USA for our benefit. How could he think it was to save his economy at that time? If you looked what happened in China and the data they released, the virus didn't look that bad.

We all could watch how fast it was spreading in real-time, country by country.  We had plenty of lead time to plan ahead instead of thinking it would not hit us.  Trump did stop some folks, but quickly went into denial mode thinking it was already over.

Quote
You can twist things anyway you want but the facts are Red States and cities are doing better than Blue States and cities when handling the virus and their local economies aren't suffering as much.

Are both colors not part of the US?  Add up the population of all red states, then blue states. add the number of dead as well and calculate deaths per million.  I'd be interested to see if there is really that much difference.  Use the 2016 election map.  Also consider we have a national economy that is interconnected and rely on both colours..


Quote
Fauci said Trump always listened to his advice. Luckily Fauci was not advising Trump in January when he shut down people coming in from China because Fauci was against travel bans. Even the infectious disease experts from WHO advised against travel bans because it would unnecessarily hurt nations economies.

All countries had politicians and scientists working together.  Those that did better were those where politicians also were able to change their views and decisions together as new data and developments emerged.  Trump was not able to adapt.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 08, 2020, 10:59:39 AM
Trump did stop some folks, but quickly went into denial mode thinking it was already over.


After Trump enacted a travel ban, you can't think of anything else he did to follow up because you believe he thought it was over or even a hoax? If you worked for the NY Times, would you write an article saying Trump went into denial mode after enacting a travel ban?

Europe was accusing Trump of hogging up all the PPE in the world because he cared about the safety of our medical professionals above theirs. They criticized his travel ban on Europe. Trump asked and forced American companies to make PPE and medical equipment such as ventilators. He investing billions of dollars into finding treatments and vaccines. A lot of that money went to foreign labs to secure first rights for Americans. Trump delegated responsibility to State and local leaders. He appointed Pence in charge of a task force to give everybody what they need. He and his team of doctors and experts had daily coronavirus briefings to educate Americans how to stop the spread and what the government is doing.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 08, 2020, 11:30:07 AM
Billy,

first and foremost, the best cure for the virus remains to prevent folks from getting it in the first place.  Anything else is just a bandaid on an existing wound until that magic bullet is found.  That's not to say we don't need bandaids, but it's not the whole deal.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 08, 2020, 11:47:18 AM
Billy,

first and foremost, the best cure for the virus remains to prevent folks from getting it in the first place. 


We did that by stopping work and hiding at home. We are past that phase now. We can't continue to harm everybody who's living. We know more about the behavior of this virus now so we protect the elderly and have kids learn online. State and local leaders, Republican and Democrat, have eased restrictions so we can get back to living and work. Doing what's best for the nation is what should be considered and factoring in a healthy economy is part of that decision. You and I need to accept the easing of restrictions as the right thing to do. Even restrictions in San Francisco eased up. Pelosi can now get her hair done in a salon without getting into trouble.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on September 08, 2020, 11:52:29 AM
Billy,

first and foremost, the best cure for the virus remains to prevent folks from getting it in the first place.  Anything else is just a bandaid on an existing wound until that magic bullet is found.  That's not to say we don't need bandaids, but it's not the whole deal.

Therein lies the rub. Nobody know how to prevent folks from catching the virus in the first place. Masks, gloves, social distancing is not scientifically proven one single iota to prevent folks from getting it. It's merely suggested and in some places mandated. You're armchair quarterbacking concerning Trumps response as if it was subpar. I contend it was not. There were some serious mistakes made IE sending infected folks into nursing homes rather than treating them in the hospitals. Trump didn't make those mistakes. You seem to cling to the total lock down as the only valid response. Perhaps in your borderline socialist Italy it was. It was not a valid response in the US. There's really no proof even that was effective in Italy. How long were you on lock down 60 days?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 08, 2020, 12:45:05 PM
How long were you on lock down 60 days?

45 days strict, only necessary travels to grocer, pharmacy, essential jobs and 45 days planned and monitored back to new normal.

45 days allows for 3 infection cycles of 15 days.  Enough so that most all infections died out on the spot, away from others.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 08, 2020, 01:36:15 PM

I didn't mention Trump but instead 'we' as a people failing.

 

Next time you write something critical and it is not about Trump, please alert us because it will go under my radar.

It sure did sound like the usual anti-Trump rhetoric coming from Democrats.   


Quote
But ok, what Trump did for NY is great, but it was damage control but did not address the problem of the virus spreading. 

Repeating what I have said frequently and seems to go over the heads of Europeans -  state governors have primary responsibility for public health.  The high number of American deaths that you harp about occurred mostly in blue states, where governors and mayors made bad public health decisions.   Later, some red state governors made bad decisions in reopening too soon and added to the growing death toll. 

Quote
Trump was not a proactive leader getting ahead of the virus and never had a plan to do so, his whole intent was to try and save the economy for his own benefit, all the while believing something would save the day for him, some medicine or that the virus would magically go away with summer.  He made bad bets for the nation and lost, even against the advice of some of the best advisors.

Nonsense.  Please summarize your evidence for each  sweeping claim.           

BTW, don't forget scientists too were changing their advice (e. g., no masks, then masks). 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 08, 2020, 01:41:45 PM
All countries had politicians and scientists working together.  Those that did better were those where politicians also were able to change their views and decisions together as new data and developments emerged.  Trump was not able to adapt.

Name instances where Trump went against a consensus of scientists.   

Name instances where the Democrats wanted to work with Republicans and were denied.   

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on September 08, 2020, 02:08:14 PM
45 days strict, only necessary travels to grocer, pharmacy, essential jobs and 45 days planned and monitored back to new normal.

45 days allows for 3 infection cycles of 15 days.  Enough so that most all infections died out on the spot, away from others.

But Italy still has new infections. It had 1150 yesterday. In fact it is currently trending up. Perhaps lock down slowed the infections or perhaps it didn't
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 08, 2020, 02:17:20 PM
But Italy still has new infections. It had 1150 yesterday. In fact it is currently trending up. Perhaps lock down slowed the infections or perhaps it didn't


I wonder if this takes Italy off of BC's list of nations that don't need a vaccine. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on September 08, 2020, 02:40:59 PM

I wonder if this takes Italy off of BC's list of nations that don't need a vaccine.

 :D Unlikely. The vaccine seems to be the double shot kool-aid narrative of the left. I'm not anti-science. Quite the opposite but what has passed for science in the pandemic is nothing short of shocking. What's been deemed and touted as science seems to be nothing more than a pacifier

http://www.rt.com/op-ed/500000-covid19-math-mistake-panic/?fbclid=IwAR1ZNOyH5RthKsB1JKLwD3qVc3bz4E9Hur45awbK5vH0ZZwjgO_Wtqrz9nQ (http://www.rt.com/op-ed/500000-covid19-math-mistake-panic/?fbclid=IwAR1ZNOyH5RthKsB1JKLwD3qVc3bz4E9Hur45awbK5vH0ZZwjgO_Wtqrz9nQ)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 08, 2020, 06:33:34 PM

One leading vaccine has been put on hold for a safety issue. They are investigating an unexplained illness. Over 100 vaccines that are currently in development worldwide, I predict only a handful will be accepted.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/oxford-vaccine-trial-on-hold-because-of-safety-issue/ar-BB18PRzl?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 08, 2020, 06:59:06 PM
I wrote this 10 days ago about the significance of OBESITY

   
You like to compare US with Italy, saying the US is slightly younger....... Lifestyle and diet certainly differ. Obesity has been identified as a prime preexisting condition resulting in more grave outcomes for those infected with COVID.   The US rate of obesity is  36.2%, Italy's 19.9%.


Today, Washington Post ran an article saying  "Obesity is turning out to be one of the key indicators that a person will have a particularly bad run-in with covid-19.... With one of the highest obesity rates in the world, some experts think it has contributed to the stunning coronavirus death rate in the United States."



http://www.washingtonpost.com/health/coronavirus-obesity-risks/2020/09/04/0f370980-e22f-11ea-b69b-64f7b0477ed4_story.html?u

Other findings:

"Early analyses point to obesity itself — rather than the comorbidities it creates — as a separate precursor to poor outcomes.....people under age 60 who generally fare better than the elderly are two to three times more likely to be admitted to the hospital for covid-19 if they are obese."

Among the many interesting reasons given are:

1.  "Fat is not inert; it secretes chemicals that can influence bodily systems. It may affect the angiotensin system that helps regulate blood pressure and blood flow, leading to more severe symptoms."

2.  "....people with obesity seem to have more ACE2 receptors, the gateway the virus uses to invade cells."

3.  Obese people have more androgens and male hormones, and a "....a mechanism of the disease is hormonally regulated. That could explain why men are doing worse, and why prepubescent children are faring well in the pandemic."   

4.   "...the hormone leptin, which regulates metabolism and appetite, is found in greater amounts in obese people ....High levels of leptin have been associated with a type of systemic inflammatory state.  ....leptin may be the link between obesity and its high prevalence as a comorbidity."

Trump is obese so the US deaths must be Trump's fault. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 08, 2020, 07:03:15 PM
One leading vaccine has been put on hold for a safety issue. They are investigating an unexplained illness. Over 100 vaccines that are currently in development worldwide, I predict only a handful will be accepted.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/oxford-vaccine-trial-on-hold-because-of-safety-issue/ar-BB18PRzl?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds

 Bad news!  That is the vaccine being developed by Oxford-AstraZeneca, and it was one of the more promising vaccines in Phase 3 trials. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 08, 2020, 08:01:54 PM
Next time you write something critical and it is not about Trump, please alert us because it will go under my radar.

It sure did sound like the usual anti-Trump rhetoric coming from Democrats.

Contempt prior to investigation? ... or reading? :)   


Quote
Repeating what I have said frequently and seems to go over the heads of Europeans -  state governors have primary responsibility for public health.  The high number of American deaths that you harp about occurred mostly in blue states, where governors and mayors made bad public health decisions.   Later, some red state governors made bad decisions in reopening too soon and added to the growing death toll. 

Out of curiosity I crunched the numbers.  Blue 731 vs Red 463 deaths per million based the 2016 state results.  Now before the Red team starts cheering that still represents 86,588 deaths.  Blue states 103,088.  Still I'll stick to deaths per million since I harp on it so much.  Please do consider the major NE outbreak has been tamed for quite a while and red states are catching up rather quickly despite CA and IL.  Consider mitigating factors such as population density in the various states, current restrictions and decide if the numbers really represent such a great difference.  As we well know, the crisis is ongoing and changes rather rapidly.  Unfortunately deaths seem to linger on forever and drop very slowly.  A difference it is but certainly not a world of difference, much less universe.


Quote from: BC on Yesterday at 16:55:00 (added for context)
Quote
Trump was not a proactive leader getting ahead of the virus and never had a plan to do so, his whole intent was to try and save the economy for his own benefit, all the while believing something would save the day for him, some medicine or that the virus would magically go away with summer.  He made bad bets for the nation and lost, even against the advice of some of the best advisors.

Gator:
Quote
Nonsense.  Please summarize your evidence for each  sweeping claim.         
 

Name instances where Trump went against a consensus of scientists.
   

Lets make it simple and divide up the homework.  The WH came out with reopening guidelines, once revised.  http://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/07/white-house-cdc-reopening-guidelines-243778

Here are the 'official' WH guidelines http://www.whitehouse.gov/openingamerica/

Can you help out and show me that states followed these guidelines and are doing so today?  ohh.. wait.. seems someone has already done it..  http://www.covidexitstrategy.org/

If you believe Trump has urged states to follow the guidelines do a google search for terms like Trump urges states reopen etc and you'll get many news reports like this one from 26 May

President Donald Trump on Tuesday urged states to open up from coronavirus lockdowns “ASAP,” as he celebrated strong gains for U.S. stocks.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-urges-states-to-open-asap-as-dow-surges-2020-05-26

and continues until today:

Trump accuses North Carolina of using coronavirus restrictions to hurt his re-election chances
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/09/08/trump-north-carolina-using-coronavirus-hurt-re-election-chances/5721169002/

Why in the world would Trump push states to open in total disregard of his own life saving guidelines?  Wouldn't even you consider such as 'throwing a wrench in the works'?  Doesn't total disregard of the only national reopening guideline published end up pitting one state against another?  I really believe CA was pushed into reopening earlier than it should have both externally and internally watching other states disregard the guidelines.

Quote
BTW, don't forget scientists too were changing their advice (e. g., no masks, then masks).

Indeed.  During lockdown, or stay at home etc masks are not needed.  Also remember (again) that there was a dire need to conserve PPE for front line healthcare workers that were experiencing shortages and causing disproportionate deaths and infections among these workers.

For months, China that has managed their infections, is today producing massive amounts of PPE.  A booming business.  Scalpers on ebay are out of business as prices dropped as well to near pre crisis pricing.

Scientists often revise their hypotheses based on information available. As I stated before, in countries that were most successful,  politics followed science.  They did not put the cart before the horse.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 08, 2020, 08:30:53 PM
But Italy still has new infections. It had 1150 yesterday. In fact it is currently trending up. Perhaps lock down slowed the infections or perhaps it didn't


I wonder if this takes Italy off of BC's list of nations that don't need a vaccine. 

Indeed numbers of infections are up for reasons mentioned prior, but positivity remains low.  Again, the main difference is that Italy and other countries are working with low infection numbers after successful effective mitigation and not high numbers with less effective mitigation.  If Italy has 1500 infections daily multiply by 5.5  = 8250 as comparable number adjusted for US population.  Pre-weekend 7 day average for the US was 40,000 approximately 5 times higher and also a higher positivity rate.  Since beginning of July, average daily deaths for the US has hovered around 1000.  For the same time period Italy 10 deaths per day.  This represents a world of difference.

Yes, I am still confident that Italy, if necessary, could maintain very low deaths for the longer term even without a vaccine.  I can't say the same for the US with confidence.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 08, 2020, 08:58:40 PM
Out of curiosity I crunched the numbers.  Blue 731 vs Red 463 deaths per million based the 2016 state results.


There's a couple of flaws in there. Red vs Blue needs to be based on who's governor, not based off the 2016 Presidential map. Some states that did bad with COVID are ran by Democratic governors although they voted for Trump. The cities within those states did much worse than the suburbs. Also you need to base it on who's running those states in 2020, not 2016.

http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

In an unrelated story I know a Chinese guy who has family living in smaller towns in China. He talks to them occasionally. They told him that the government dug huge holes in the ground to mass bury people. Cameras and media weren't allowed to record what was happening. Although China has the biggest population, they are now 39th in the world for total infections.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 08, 2020, 09:04:37 PM
There's a couple of flaws in there. Red vs Blue needs to be based on who's governor, not based off the 2016 Presidential map.

Waat? you don't like the EC system anymore? :)

There is no flaw. Red and Blue states were mentioned and that's what I did.

If you want to do it by governor, go right ahead.  Hey, maybe mayor of the biggest city in each state?  Dead is dead, we don't need to haggle over 'em.

Have fun.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 09, 2020, 05:15:08 AM

Out of curiosity I crunched the numbers.  Blue 731 vs Red 463 deaths per million based the 2016 state results. 


Admirable effort, compiling deaths by state and factoring populations.  :clapping: :clapping:   Thanks. 

My eyeball guess was about 60-40, and yes the red percentage seems to be increasing.  BillyB made some valid comments about mayors, governors, etc.  My state of Florida is red (barely) and majority of deaths occur in blue cities. 


Quote
 
Lets make it simple and divide up the homework.  The WH came out with reopening guidelines, once revised.

Can you help out and show me that states followed these guidelines and are doing so today?  ohh.. wait.. seems someone has already done it. [ ;)]

If you believe Trump has urged states to follow the guidelines do a google search for terms like Trump urges states reopen etc and you'll get many news reports like this one from 26 May

President Donald Trump on Tuesday urged states to open up from coronavirus lockdowns “ASAP,” as he celebrated strong gains for U.S. stocks.

Keyword:  Federalism.

If State Governors and mayors were subordinate to the President, Trump would order them to curb the violent protests that have waged for over 100 days.  Being the President, is Trump responsible for the creation of sanctuary cities and states? 


Quote
Why in the world would Trump push states to open in total disregard of his own life saving guidelines? 

Trump listened to scientists, all scientists, not just epidemiologists,  but economists, psychologists, education....He synthesized a decision balancing all considerations.  And that is his job, to make tradeoffs.

BC,  US citizens certainly had ample information to make mitigation decisions, which I contend was the greatest determinant  of outcomes.   


Quote
As I stated before, in countries that were most successful,  politics followed science.   

 
Again, you focus on numbers of deaths and current levels of infections.  Are the death numbers properly weighted in the tradeoffs involving the economy and mental health?  Also, do those countries have federal governments similar to the US, compounded by severe political division?

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 09, 2020, 06:04:35 AM
Admirable effort, compiling deaths by state and factoring populations.  :clapping: :clapping:   Thanks.

Copying and pasting worldometer.com tables into excel is not that awfully difficult. From there it's simple worksheet stuff to crunch the numbers.

Quote
My eyeball guess was about 60-40, and yes the red percentage seems to be increasing.  BillyB made some valid comments about mayors, governors, etc.  My state of Florida is red (barely) and the majority of deaths occur in blue cities. 

I was surprised the difference was not more.  Yes, one can divvy up down to the county and city if that is somehow momentarily comforting but I don't find it very useful.  Each 'cut' of the pie is less relevant to the whole.  The virus crisis is a national problem and we should start viewing it that way.  Maybe try looking at a current 'snapshot' of recent data to get a better picture of what is going on now.  NY and other NE states seem to be handling it very well nowadays and the virus is 'moving on' as you noted.  No city, county or state is immune and I believe in the end any differences will be very minimal.


Quote
Keyword:  Federalism.

If State Governors and mayors were subordinate to the President, Trump would order them to curb the violent protests that have waged for over 100 days.  Being the President, is Trump responsible for the creation of sanctuary cities and states? 

Yes, I do understand the concept.  That is why leadership is so important in 'setting the tone' and getting states on-board with the program.

Quote
Trump listened to scientists, all scientists, not just epidemiologists,  but economists, psychologists, education....He synthesized a decision balancing all considerations.  And that is his job, to make tradeoffs.

As long as tradeoffs are genuinely in the interest of the nation I have no objection.  His many statements and actions that conflict even with WH guidelines does not lead me to believe it is so.

Quote
BC,  US citizens certainly had ample information to make mitigation decisions, which I contend was the greatest determinant  of outcomes.   

As long as my mitigation or lack thereof does not endanger others, that's fine.  It is obviously not the case with this crisis.  I wear a mask to help keep you from getting sick. Only works if we all are willing to participate.

Quote
Again, you focus on numbers of deaths and current levels of infections.  Are the death numbers properly weighted in the tradeoffs involving the economy and mental health?  Also, do those countries have federal governments similar to the US, compounded by severe political division?

Many countries have stark divisions, Italy, Belgium, Spain even Germany still to some waning extent, just to name a few. As for the side effects of mitigation, it's probably too early to assess that with any authority, but I do believe EU will do better than other places due to the higher social net and resources that minimize mental and physical stressors along with a higher level of access to mental health resources.  Many like those here in the south of Italy also benefit from family structures that are more geared towards supporting one another, where 'chipping in' to fill a pot for all is more usual than unusual.  Affordable broadband Internet has helped a lot as well with fixed and mobile access a fraction of the cost in the US.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 09, 2020, 07:36:50 AM

Yes, I do understand the concept.  That is why leadership is so important in 'setting the tone' and getting states on-board with the program.

How can one be a leader when half the nation has mutinied?  Its worse than herding cats.  The cats are doing sneak attacks rather than joining the family, purposefully not using the litter box,  making a mess and saying the dog did it, killing wild birds, etc.  All the while the media says they are not only justified, they are adorable. 

Quote
As long as tradeoffs are genuinely in the interest of the nation I have no objection.  His many statements and actions that conflict even with WH guidelines does not lead me to believe it is so.

I admit Trump focuses on the economy and security, yet IMO does not ignore the rest. Yesterday, for example, he granted millions to ehance Florida's environmental protection programs.
 

Quote
As long as my mitigation or lack thereof does not endanger others, that's fine.  It is obviously not the case with this crisis.  I wear a mask to help keep you from getting sick. Only works if we all are willing to participate.

As we should.  The President does not have the authority to order and enforce individual mitigation measures.  How many municipalities do that? 

Some of the lack of compliance is subscribing to different opinions.  Some of it is being a social animal.  Some of it is residing in low infection areas.  Some of it is the "home of the brave and the land of the free."  Some of it is pure mix of stupidity and egotism.   

Sadly, people have died, and the numbers are indeed more than a bad flu season, yet IMO not a significant uptick in mortality (even less when factoring comorbidity). 



Quote
Many countries have stark divisions, Italy, Belgium, Spain even Germany still to some waning extent, just to name a few.
 

Is the degree of division in these nations the worst in 150 years?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 09, 2020, 08:10:22 AM
PAUSING OF OXFORD-ASTRAZENECA VACCINE TRIAL

The Phase 3 clinical trial was paused to do a more comprehensive analysis of data before injecting more volunteers with the trail vaccine. 

From what I can decipher, of the 10,000 volunteers injected one patient developed a case of transverse myelitis.  This is a rare form of spinal cord inflammation caused by  infections, immune system disorders, and other factors.  The condition has been reported in some of the millions and millions of COVID infections. 

The critical question is whether it was caused by the volunteer patient's immune response to the trial vaccine or by something else.  The question must be answered before proceeding and will involve a lengthy process, such as examining whether it was overlooked in other trail inoculations.   

Oxford vaccine uses an  adenovirus vector platform to deliver the gene material prompting a spike protein expression.  Some of the other vaccines underdevelopment use a similar program, and this could cause some of them to also pause their trails.  There are other vaccines using alternative platforms, such as the "down and dirty" one associated with the Russian and Chinese vaccines. 

What this shows is the value of clinical trails before mass usage on the general population.  Are you listening Russia? 

It also shows the safety precautions taken by he FDA and other organizations to protect the public, and explains why the development of a viral vaccine normally takes years. 

Overall this is a lengthy setback for one and maybe more of the vaccines now under development. 

__________________________________________________________________________ ______

BOTTOMLINE:  Would you take a vaccine that is maybe only 60% effective and has a 1-in-10,000 chance of causing a spinal cord inflammation condition requiring 1-2 years of recovery?

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 09, 2020, 08:19:34 AM
How can one be a leader when half the nation has mutinied?  Its worse than herding cats.

You follow your own playbook. Consistent messaging is key.  From His playbook:

(http://i.postimg.cc/D0HHKyZx/Screen-Shot-2020-09-09-at-16-49-17.png)

How many 'deviations' to these guidelines have you observed by our self-appointed spokesperson?

http://www.cdc.gov/eis/field-epi-manual/chapters/Communicating-Investigation.html

Quote
The President does not have the authority to order and enforce individual mitigation measures.

Lead by example. Build trust.  Has Trump been a good example for mitigation measures?  Has Trump been a good trust builder or breaker?

Quote
Some of the lack of compliance is subscribing to different opinions.  Some of it is being a social animal.  Some of it is residing in low infection areas.  Some of it is the "home of the brave and the land of the free."  Some of it is pure mix of stupidity and egotism.
 

It's the job of a leader to set simple but effective goals that make sense to all citizens and residents.  He rallied many states to be inconsistent with his own published plan.  Is that effective leadership?  The same effort would have been much more effective promoting his plan and rallying folks to observe and comply.

Quote
Sadly, people have died, and the numbers are indeed more than a bad flu season, yet IMO not a significant uptick in mortality (even less when factoring comorbidity).
 

Flu season hasn't even hit yet.  Fortunately, the same mitigation measures should work well against both viruses.  Now ask yourself what you expect results will look like based on past performance.
 
Quote
Is the degree of division in these nations the worst in 150 years?

Divisions are always present and I'd say they are the worst in 150 years, still very 'tame' compared to Trump's USA.  In the face of a common enemy, many of these divisions were set aside with only a few outliers.  Building trust, setting goals, following a plan and adjusting when needed, along with good, clear messaging.  All are key to the continuing effort.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 09, 2020, 08:48:27 AM
BOTTOMLINE:  Would you take a vaccine that is maybe only 60% effective and has a 1-in-10,000 chance of causing a spinal cord inflammation condition requiring 1-2 years of recovery?

Having the luxury of doing so, I would patiently wait until other trials have been completed, presenting a wider range of choice.

I do hope it is proven unrelated, but since such reactions can be caused by viral infection, pausing to investigate and exclude is prudent.

I suspect somewhere down the road scientists may find that combining multiple vaccines may prove to be the best way to improve efficacy.  60% would be a bummer having to continue mitigation and containment measures.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 09, 2020, 10:38:56 AM

Do we know what the illness is? It is said to be transverse myelitis, although AstraZeneca has not confirmed that. That is inflammation of the sheath containing the nerves of the spinal cord. It can be treated by steroids to reduce the inflammation but the condition can be permanent.


The above is from the article below. If the illness is determined to create permanent harm to people, the vaccine may be scrapped. The good news is they are taking safety seriously.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/oxford-covid-vaccine-trial-suspension-what-happens-next/ar-BB18RiUU?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 09, 2020, 10:53:32 AM

How many 'deviations' to these guidelines have you observed by our self-appointed spokesperson?


Woiuld require a detailed qualitative analysis that boils down to touchy-feely considerations, something you probably relish.    I prefer a Gestalt analysis. 


Quote
Lead by example. Build trust.  Has Trump been a good example for mitigation measures?  Has Trump been a good trust builder or breaker?

He approached the pandemic as a leader focused on getting us through the pandemic without causing panic.  Panic would have been worse than the added deaths.  Trump is not as a medical doctor; doctors dwell on worse cases including death as a way to prepare the family.  Besides, even you must acknowledge how our scientific understanding has changed, so who knew with certainty what the eventual outcomes would be. We still don't know.   Yes, in so doing he admitted to "playing it down."
 

Quote
It's the job of a leader to set simple but effective goals that make sense to all citizens and residents. 


Did Trump's style influence me into not exercising care?  Not the least bit.  Did it influence you?  Individual choices trumped everything. 
 
Quote
Flu season hasn't even hit yet.  Fortunately, the same mitigation measures should work well against both viruses.  Now ask yourself what you expect results will look like based on past performance.

This fall will see an increase in COVID infections. 
 
Quote
In the face of a common enemy, many of these divisions were set aside with only a few outliers.


Maybe in Europe, but not the case here.  After the failed Russian collusion investigation, and the failed impeachment, the Democrats soon stopped working across the aisle have to turn the pandemic into another opportunity to slam Trump.  Never waste a crisis to spin it to tear apart the country. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 09, 2020, 11:12:59 AM
I prefer a Gestalt analysis.

Not sure it would add up :)


Quote
He approached the pandemic as a leader focused on getting us through the pandemic without causing panic.  Panic would have been worse than the added deaths.  Trump is not as a medical doctor; doctors dwell on worse cases including death as a way to prepare the family.  Besides, even you must acknowledge how our scientific understanding has changed, so who knew with certainty what the eventual outcomes would be. We still don't know.   Yes, in so doing he admitted to "playing it down."

I see you saw the 'preview' of "Rage" as well :)
 
Quote
  Individual choices trumped everything.


Maybe something like 'little head' and 'big head' thinking we talk about here.
 
Quote
This fall will see an increase in COVID infections. 

I reckon so as well, along with many, many deaths.
   
Quote
Maybe in Europe, but not the case here.  After the failed Russian collusion investigation, and the failed impeachment, the Democrats soon stopped working across the aisle have to turn the pandemic into another opportunity to slam Trump.  Never waste a crisis to spin it to tear apart the country.

Yep, those damned dems caused Trump to ignore the danger he was informed of, play it down, not follow the game plan and encourage others to do so as well.  We should tar and feather them all!

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 09, 2020, 07:36:08 PM

Back in March, the White House said we will have just over 200,000 deaths by the 1st of October. It was a prediction that will come true.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-white-house-model-prediction-200000-deaths-october/

Dr.Birx said if we do things almost perfectly, we'd have anywhere between 100k-200k deaths. We will be just over the 200k mark come October so we will have done a great job just missing the almost perfect mark. They also predicted up to 2.2 million deaths if we did nothing.

http://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/30/white-house-coronavirus-expert-predicts-up-to-200000-us-coronavirus-deaths.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 09, 2020, 09:07:09 PM
We will be just over the 200k mark come October so we will have done a great job just missing the almost perfect mark. They also predicted up to 2.2 million deaths if we did nothing.

Birx's 'Perfectly' means absolutely nothing in today's context.  Something akin to saying everyone in the class will get an A+ on the first day of school.

It is actually quite shoddy performance when comparing ourselves to other countries.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 09, 2020, 10:17:14 PM

BC, there's a lot of factors involved in evaluating the health of the nation. You've always debated as if Coronavirus is the only thing we need to worry about. A good economy will translate to better lives for all living citizens. America remains healthy enough to take care of its citizens and still loan other nations to take care of their problems.

After the first wave of the Coronavirus, Italy is already borrowing billions. After the pandemic ends, you will be paying back with interest. America will collect interest from the nations we loaned money to. After WWII, those paying back their debt helped us rise to Superpower status and made the dollar the world currency. Life improved here for all. I suspect we'll get another boost after the pandemic because we are not sacrificing our economy as much as you think we should. Italy has their way of doing things, America has it's way of doing things. It'll take few years before we see who handled the pandemic better.

http://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_20_1478
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 10, 2020, 02:03:08 AM
It'll take few years before we see who handled the pandemic better.

Be sure to tell that to McEnemy will ya?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 10, 2020, 02:08:30 AM
After the first wave of the Coronavirus, Italy is already borrowing billions. After the pandemic ends, you will be paying back with interest. America will collect interest from the nations we loaned money to.

And who did we borrow trillions from and will that not be paid back with interest?

 :popcorn:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 10, 2020, 03:17:08 AM
I watched the White House press conference today and the WH press secretary said UK, Belgium, and France has around a 10% death rate while America has 3%. If she did case fatality rate, those numbers would be higher but the fact is America's medical system and response has kept our numbers down and it would be lower if certain boneheaded Democratic governors acted faster instead of laughing at Trump's China and Europe travel bans.

What McEnemy does not tell you:

Countries have varying approaches to COVID-19 case definitions. CFR will vary according to how they are defined.

WHO: During the COVID-19 pandemic, broad variations in CFR estimates have been published, which may be misleading. This scientific brief concludes by providing some explanations for these variations, and why making comparisons between countries can be problematic.

IOW she is simply dividing the number of deaths by the number of confirmed cases (positive tests).  This was fine in the beginning as testing was restricted to patients presenting with significant symptoms. Nowadays just about anyone can get a test.  I could throw any CFR number out there and no one could prove me wrong.  The number she is throwing at you is not CFR, it is IFR since the number of infections she uses include also asymptomatic cases that were tested.

Quote
Like the case fatality rate, the term infection fatality rate (IFR) also applies to infectious disease outbreaks, but represents the proportion of
Quote
deaths among all infected individuals, including all asymptomatic and undiagnosed subjects
. It is closely related to the CFR, but attempts to additionally account for inapparent infections among healthy people

Further, she does a walk around the bush with the next question that was asked:

McEnemy: "The case fatality rate notes that, and that’s a testament to our therapeutics that the President has navigated —"

Question: "But if you look at the per capita rate, the U.S. is still — towards the very top of that."

McEnemy: "The case fatality is the metric that shows how well our response has done with therapeutics, and we are leading the world in having the lowest case fatality rate."

IFR does nothing of this sort. Deaths per capita is the only remaining, comparable value we have left nowadays.

So you see, the WH is still duping folks right and left to follow that mirage...

NB: this post copied from the Trump thread as it is relevant here also.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 10, 2020, 05:21:31 AM
Back in March, the White House said we will have just over 200,000 deaths by the 1st of October. It was a prediction that will come true.

That briefing was at on 30 March.  Trump 'knew' at least at the beginning of February.

In terms of virus spread and effectiveness of mitigation efforts an eternity.  A couple of weeks can halve deaths.

http://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200521/lockdown-1-week-earlier-would-have-saved-36k-lives#1

During the same time-frame, it was actually a team from China that scolded Italy about lax lockdown measures. They saved many, many lives by insisting that localized lockdowns, lax enforcement would not suffice and only more restrictive measures would work.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/chinese-red-cross-official-tells-italians-they-are-too-lax-on-covid-19-lockdown

As a result, national lockdown measures already in place since the beginning of March were strengthened considerably.

From Wikipedia:

On 20 March, the Ministry of Health ordered tighter regulations on free movement. The new measures banned open-air sports and running, except individually and in close proximity of one's residence. Parks, playgrounds, and public green were closed down. Furthermore, movement across the country was further restricted, by banning "any movement towards a residence different from the main one", including holiday homes, during weekends and holidays.

On 21 March, Conte announced further restrictions within the nationwide lockdown, by halting all non-essential production, industries and businesses in Italy, following the rise in the number of new cases and deaths in the previous days.[251] This measure had also been strongly asked for by multiple institutions, including trade unions, mayors, and regional presidents, as well as medical professionals, but was initially opposed by the industrialists.[252][253][254][255][256][257][excessive citations]

On 24 March, in a live-streamed press conference, Conte announced a new decree approved by the Council of Ministers. The decree imposed higher fines for the violation of the restrictive measures, and regulation of the relationship between government and Parliament during the emergency. It included also the possibility of reducing or suspending public and private transport, and gave the regional governments power to impose additional restrictive regulations in their Regions for a maximum of seven days before being confirmed by national decree.[258][259]

On 1 April, the government extended the period of lockdown until 13 April, with health minister Speranza saying that the restrictive measures had begun to yield the first positive results.[260]

On 8 April, a government's decree closed all Italian ports until 31 July, stating that they do not ensure the necessary requirements for the classification and definition of "safe place", established by the Hamburg Rules on maritime search and rescue."[263]

On 10 April, Conte announced the prolongation of the lockdown until 3 May, as well as the reopening of some businesses like bookshops and forestry

4 May to 15 June phased reopening to include cinemas, bars barber shops etc.

Since June only discotheques were closed again and masks required in all populated public places and crowds.

The majority of US 'stay at home' orders, a more lax form of lockdown were done much later with the exception of NY and some neighbouring states.  All these states are doing quite well today still.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COVID-19_pandemic_lockdowns#United_States

Now, reviewing all this, did Italy panic?  Did any other countries really panic faced with the truth?  How can one justify that the US would panic if given truthful and accurate information?

Are we really so weak that our citizens cannot handle the truth?

Something is very, very wrong with those defending Trump's efforts to keep us from knowing what's really happening, facts that would enable folks to make informed choices accordingly and save lives.  His decision is totally indefensible.







Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 10, 2020, 05:23:41 AM

Yep, those damned dems caused Trump to ignore the danger he was informed of, play it down, not follow the game plan and encourage others to do so as well. 

Sarcasm noted. 

You would benefit from a chart of time vs the following three:

     1.  Consensus opinions and guidance from health scientists about COVID.
     2.  Remarks/actions made by Trump about COVID
     3.  Remarks/actions  made by Dem leaders such as Cuomo, Biden, Pelosi, et al.

It would show Dem leaders in the early months were playing it down more than Trump.   That later changed when the pandemic became politicized. 

Obama even spoke about staying calm. 



Quote
  We should tar and feather them all!
 

I would prefer each side crossing the aisle. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 10, 2020, 05:44:01 AM

Are we really so weak that our citizens cannot handle the truth?

What was the truth?  The daily press conferences were showing varying estimates of deaths.  The COVID team was saying tens of thousands, maybe more than a 100,000 would die.

The average person was informed well enough to take mitigation precautions.  My family did.   Why the national run on clorox wipes, isopropyl alcohol, masks, etc.?  Some panicked  and hoarded toilet paper as if everyone would get diarrhea. 
 

Quote
Something is very, very wrong with those defending Trump's efforts to keep us from knowing what's really happening, facts that would enable folks to make informed choices accordingly and save lives.  His decision is totally indefensible.

What were the alternatives?  An Italy shutdown would have saved lives and today our economy would be in a deeper hole.   Could an Italy shutdown  be enforced (NYC and NYS  knew the facts and delayed their shutdown)?  Was a shutdown advisable for the entire nation?   

   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on September 10, 2020, 05:45:36 AM
Gator,

Please demonstrate your assertion that the Dems 'politicised' the virus and made less of its risks in the earlier days.

Sorry, I think you will have a hard time.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 10, 2020, 06:07:14 AM
And who did we borrow trillions from and will that not be paid back with interest?

 :popcorn:

We been through this before. America is owed more than we owe. Don't want to address Italy's borrowing problem?

Precisely how much Italy will get is unclear. Giuseppe Conte, the prime minister, claims it will be €209bn: €81bn in grants and €127bn in loans. But though Italy’s loan entitlement can be calculated, what it actually borrows will depend on factors including the commission’s assessment of Italy’s spending proposals and its government’s willingness to take on yet more debt: extra borrowing to cope with covid-19 has nudged the total to at least 155% of GDP.

http://www.newsday24.com/world/europe/italy-has-to-work-out-what-to-do-with-all-its-new-eu-money/


That briefing was at on 30 March.  Trump 'knew' at least at the beginning of February.


And Trump took action as early as January. If you wanted the honest bad news early, the Democrats could've told you that to help more panic beyond toilet paper shopping.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 10, 2020, 06:19:33 AM
What was the truth?  The daily press conferences were showing varying estimates of deaths.  The COVID team was saying tens of thousands, maybe more than a 100,000 would die.
   

Yes, two months after Trump knew the bug was dangerous.  I'm quite sure you have seen this video, but keep 7 February in mind while watching the dates flash by to absorb the impact of his words in this new context. Think of his 'base' followers that believe every word that comes out of his mouth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8yOv4PwttM

What were citizens and residents to think all the while?  Heck, even other nations listening to the words of the most powerful leader on earth with the best and most vast resources of knowledge and experts at his beck and call.

Inconsistent messaging is deadly.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 10, 2020, 06:23:53 AM
extra borrowing to cope with covid-19 has nudged the total to at least 155% of GDP. [/b]

and what is US debt to GDP ratio? 140% and growing?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on September 10, 2020, 08:30:23 AM
It's election period in the US, folks. In case anyone outside is wondering why the discussion is focused on Trump & admin. LMAO!

People are really trying VERY hard to create their personal versions of urban legendry aka fake news.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 10, 2020, 02:36:17 PM

What were citizens and residents to think all the while?  Heck, even other nations listening to the words of the most powerful leader on earth with the best and most vast resources of knowledge and experts at his beck and call.

Inconsistent messaging is deadly.

BC, in the past you have acknowledged Dr. Fauci as a reliable source.  What did Dr, Fauci say yesterday about the accusations that Trump distorted the truth?

Quote
  Speaking with Fox News’ John Roberts, Fauci denied that he ever heard the president “distort” the threat of the coronavirus and maintained that Trump’s presentations to the public were largely in line with discussions he’d had with medical experts. When asked whether he ever felt Trump was downplaying the severity of the coronavirus, Fauci said no.


http://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/09/anthony-fauci-trump-woodward-coronavirus-410895

Yes, the pandemic was hugely disruptive, approaching 200,000 deaths, and swelling the ranks of unemployed workers to 20 million.  The bottom line, America is now getting back to normal.  People are returning to their jobs.  We are adapting to the virus.  The world may end some day, but not from this virus. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on September 10, 2020, 07:29:02 PM
Are we really so weak that our citizens cannot handle the truth?

Something is very, very wrong with those defending Trump's efforts to keep us from knowing what's really happening, facts that would enable folks to make informed choices accordingly and save lives.  His decision is totally indefensible.

LMAO. I wish I had popcorn just about now.

Anyway please let me introduce Mr Ron Klain. Mr Klain was in VP Biden’s 2009-2010 H1N1 ViRUS Response Team. If that wasn’t enough, Obama appointed him member of his 2014-2015 Ebola Response Team.

Here’s Mr Klain speaking on C-SPAN last May 14, 2019 recalling how deadly efficient Obama’s administration was in handling that virus epidemic.

Turn up the Volume

http://youtu.be/mT9SdZ66xdE



Quote
We did every possible thing wrong....it is a fortuity that this isn’t one of the great mass casualty events in American history!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 10, 2020, 10:18:15 PM
and what is US debt to GDP ratio? 140% and growing?

If Italy owed 500 billion, is it better than America if America owed 6 trillion but is owed 9 trillion? No. America is in better financial shape than every nation on earth. We talked about this before but you still only want to talk America's debt and not what we are owed. Kinda like liberals talking about Trump's few business failures and ignoring his successful businesses which greatly outnumber the failed ones. America has controlling shares in the World Bank and IMF because we have the most money to loan. Click the photo attached to enlarge it to learn America is owed 50% more than we owe.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 11, 2020, 07:58:49 AM

Last month, former Florida State basketball center Michael Ojo died from a heart attack in Serbia; Ojo had recovered from the coronavirus before he collapsed on the basketball court. An Ohio State University cardiologist found that between 10 and 13 percent of university athletes who had recovered from COVID-19 had myocarditis. When the Big Ten athletic conference announced the cancellation of its season last month, Commissioner Kevin Warren cited the risk of heart failure in athletes. Researchers have estimated that up to 20 percent of people who get the coronavirus sustain heart damage.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/post-covid-heart-damage-alarms-researchers-there-was-a-black-hole-in-infected-cells-172015067.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 11, 2020, 09:01:41 AM
If Italy owed 500 billion, is it better than America if America owed 6 trillion but is owed 9 trillion? No. America is in better financial shape than every nation on earth. We talked about this before but you still only want to talk America's debt and not what we are owed. Kinda like liberals talking about Trump's few business failures and ignoring his successful businesses which greatly outnumber the failed ones. America has controlling shares in the World Bank and IMF because we have the most money to loan. Click the photo attached to enlarge it to learn America is owed 50% more than we owe.

Billy,

I asked a very simple question you did not answer.  You pointed out debt to gdp ratio of Italy and I asked for the same for the US. Did you find it?

Since you went off on a tangent, I'll ask a question about that as well.  Does your chart show what the US Government directly owes to other nations governments and Governments of other nations owe the US, or also the value of financial instruments like stocks and bonds and other treasuries that citizens of different countries hold?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 11, 2020, 09:37:52 AM
You pointed out debt to gdp ratio of Italy and I asked for the same for the US. Did you find it?



I'm not discussing Italy's debt to gdp ratio although it was part of the article I submitted. I'm discussing a nation's financial health during the pandemic and I wanted to show Italy has to borrow money from outside sources to get through the pandemic. America is loaning money to help other nations get though the pandemic. Italy borrows a lot but doesn't loan a lot so they are in true debt. America is a very healthy nation and we are owed trillions more than we owe. Any nation would love to be in our shoes yet people insinuate we are very poor since we have the biggest debt always leaving out the fact we are owed much more than we owe.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 11, 2020, 09:57:21 AM
Billy,

you don't seem to understand the chart you are using.  Do the research and get back with me.  If you need help, just ask and I'll send you the links that substantiate the chart.

Hint: Why is Cayman Islands such a big buyer of US securities?

I hope you enjoy learning from this little homework assignment.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 11, 2020, 10:27:20 AM


I already did my homework. I'm happy with the financial shape America is in. You seem unhappy about it thinking we are only in debt and are worried about the Cayman Islands buying US securities. The Cayman Islands should worry more about a single American billionaire owning them.


http://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/18/business/kenneth-dart-cayman-islands.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 11, 2020, 11:04:14 AM
Let me help you Billy.

Pippo in Europe buys a US treasury note.  One day they cash in and the US Treasury pays them.

BillyB in the US buys an Italian Government Bond.  One day they cash in and the Italian Treasury pays them.

Did the Italian Treasury owe or pay the US Treasury anything? Obviously not.

So debts of the US Treasury is not 'offset' or otherwise 'balanced' by Foreign government securities they sold to citizens, or banks, or whomever, wherever.

Sure, governments all over the world buy each other's debt, mainly to have instruments to use to minimize currency fluctuations if necessary, but that is not what your chart shows.

It seems you were not successful or not interested in completing this simple homework assignment.

Here is the source document to back up my assertions.  It is referenced at the bottom right corner of your chart (the fine print).  You have to search around a bit for the .pdf link.

http://ticdata.treasury.gov/Publish/shca2015_report.pdf

Quote
For the purposes of this report, U.S. portfolio investment in foreign securities includes all foreign securities owned by U.S. residents except those that are part of a direct investment relationship between the U.S. resident ownerof the foreign securities and the foreign issuer of the securities. Direct investment means ownership or control, directly or indirectly, by one person or by a group of affiliated persons, of an interest of 10 percent or more of the voting stock of an incorporated business enterprise, or the equivalent in an unincorporated enterprise.

I hope this information helps you better understand the true meaning and context of the chart you have used a couple of times here at RWD to somehow show that the US Treasury is owed more than debt it has sold, thus we're in great shape.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 11, 2020, 11:11:03 AM

BC, it's not complicated. America is owed more than it owes. Can you show me where Italy is owed more than they owe?

Pertaining to the Coronavirus pandemic, America can take care of its people and still loan money to other nations for their problems. Italy had to borrow enormous amounts of money to take care of its coronavirus problems. Why are we discussing this? Because it needs to be factored into which nation is doing best in handling the pandemic since you're claiming America's response under Trump was a disaster.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on September 11, 2020, 11:18:11 AM
By the good graces of the lordee-lou, let's pray this is a momentary blip (http://covid19-surveillance-report.ecdc.europa.eu/), if not an aberration altogether.

Quote
As of 11 September 2020, 183,697 deaths have been reported in the EU/EEA and the UK

http://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 11, 2020, 11:18:27 AM
BC, it's not complicated.

Indeed, it is not.  Your interpretation however is.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 11, 2020, 11:27:28 AM
By the good graces of the lordee-lou, let's pray this is a momentary blip (http://covid19-surveillance-report.ecdc.europa.eu/), if not an aberration altogether.

GQ,

The figure for deaths EU+UK is correct.

The population EU+UK is 512 million or so.  US 331 million.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 11, 2020, 11:34:56 AM
By the good graces of the lordee-lou, let's pray this is a momentary blip (http://covid19-surveillance-report.ecdc.europa.eu/), if not an aberration altogether.

http://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/cases-2019-ncov-eueea

Europe's death rate and case fatality rate are much worse than America's. Do we blame their woes on bad handling of the pandemic, worse health care system or both?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on September 11, 2020, 11:46:23 AM
Europe's death rate and case fatality rate are much worse than America's. Do we blame their woes on bad handling of the pandemic, worse health care system or both?

No. That would be incredibly pointless, if not downright insanely irresponsible. You must remember nearly all of the EU nation/region exercised STRICT lockdown/shutdown as to minimize total fatality number to the virus remember? More importantly neither of us are anywhere there, so how can we have any knowledge to any reason why, much less lay the blame on anything or anyone....

Very strictly, yes indeedy.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 11, 2020, 11:49:18 AM
Europe's death rate and case fatality rate are much worse than America's. Do we blame their woes on bad handling of the pandemic, worse health care system or both?

US 594 deaths per million
EU+UK 358 deaths per million
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 11, 2020, 12:53:58 PM

Here’s Mr Klain speaking on C-SPAN last May 14, 2019 recalling how deadly efficient Obama’s administration was in handling that virus epidemic.

Quote
We did every possible thing wrong....it is a fortuity that this isn’t one of the great mass casualty events in American history!


Is he saying outbreaks of virulent  diseases are problematic challenges, and the health science field doesn't have perfect information about what to do?  What a shock!

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on September 11, 2020, 01:24:36 PM
Is he saying outbreaks of virulent  diseases are problematic challenges, and the health science field doesn't have perfect information about what to do?  What a shock!

Shocking?!? Don't be silly Phil...it's been more than obvious of late that it depends on your political affiliation.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 11, 2020, 01:56:47 PM
Vaccine news. 

The developers of COVID vaccines are analyzing the question of what caused the one case of transverse myelitis, necessitating the Oxford-AstraZeneca trials be paused.   

If caused by the viral vector and not the epitope, there are some vaccines being developed that do not use a viral vector platform.  Two are those being developed by Moderna and Pfizer, both of which are a couple of months into Phase 3 trails. 

Keep our fingers crossed.  While Kamala said she will not choose to be vaccinated (how's that for leadership?), the world needs an effective and safe vaccine.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 11, 2020, 02:08:05 PM
US 594 deaths per million
EU+UK 358 deaths per million

The link GQ provided is out of Europe. They provide a lot of data and they clearly show total deaths and cases and after doing the math, Europe has a much higher rate of death per case than America.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 11, 2020, 02:29:34 PM
BillyB,

variance and differences between IFR and CFR have been discussed.  Not valuable nor accurate for comparative use unless the same counting standards and methods are applied, usually not the case in different countries.  Refer to previous posts and see website disclaimers.

In any case, won't save any of the dead or change the number of 'em.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 11, 2020, 10:02:24 PM

Although China claims to have only 157 active COVID cases, they've injected hundreds of thousands of people with two experimental vaccines.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/china-injects-hundreds-of-thousands-with-experimental-covid-19-vaccines/ar-BB18W5Ta?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Maxx2 on September 12, 2020, 07:15:09 AM
Vaccine news. 

Kamala said she will not choose to be vaccinated (how's that for leadership?), the world needs an effective and safe vaccine.


What if there isn't one or ever will be? Like the mask mandate of needing one to enter a store. Maybe we cannot travel unless we show proof of taking the vaccine?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 12, 2020, 12:49:44 PM

Maybe we cannot travel unless we show proof of taking the vaccine?

Or attend a sport event?  Can employers require their employees be vaccinated?

Mandating any vaccination is a legal issue.

But first we must develop a safe and effective vaccine, and then manufacture and distribute doses.   

   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on September 12, 2020, 12:52:47 PM

What if there isn't one or ever will be? Like the mask mandate of needing one to enter a store. Maybe we cannot travel unless we show proof of taking the vaccine?

Which 'vaccine'.. ?

There's probably several thousand folks who think / hope they're inoculated..  may be they've had a placebo.. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on September 12, 2020, 01:25:25 PM
Speaking of politicising COVID-19 ..

http://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/11/exclusive-trump-officials-interfered-with-cdc-reports-on-covid-19-412809 (http://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/11/exclusive-trump-officials-interfered-with-cdc-reports-on-covid-19-412809)



Trump officials interfered with CDC reports on Covid-19

The politically appointed HHS spokesperson and his team demanded and received the right to review CDC’s scientific reports to health professionals.

But since Michael Caputo, a former Trump campaign official with no medical or scientific background, was installed in April as the Health and Human Services department's new spokesperson, there have been substantial efforts to align the reports with Trump's statements, including the president's claims that fears about the outbreak are overstated, or stop the reports altogether.

Surely not ?

We've had the same interference this side of the pond 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 13, 2020, 08:33:44 AM
NEWS FROM VACCINE DEVELOPERS

After pausing its Phase 3 trials early this week, AstraZeneca has resumed the trails for its vaccine candidate.  The trials are resumed only in the UK.  This suggests that the pharma company has determined the health risks are not significant, yet added caution is necessary.

Some observers feel this has placed Pfizer's vaccine as the front runner.  Their vaccine, BNT162b2,  is being developed with the German biotech company, BioNTech.  BNT162b2 uses a different  platform than the AstraZeneca vaccine (AZD1222) and it was the first of two companies to start Phase 3 trials along with Moderna.    Moderna uses  the same mRNA vaccine platform as does Pfizer's; however, Moderna too has temporarily slowed  Phase 3 trial volunteer enrollment to increase minority participation. 

Besides issues in gaining regulatory approval, manufacturing and distribution of doses is also an issue.  There are concerns about the distribution of Pfizer doses because it "...must be kept frozen at negative 94 degrees Fahrenheit during shipment and storage. And once it's thawed, it reportedly has to be used within 24 hours."
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 14, 2020, 01:10:50 PM
MORE VACCINE NEWS

I mentioned yesterday that Pfizer seems to be the front runner in the race to develop a vaccine. 

Yesterday, Pfizer's CEO was interviewed by the news show "Face the Nation."  He said, "we have a good chance that we will know if the product works by the end of October."
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on September 14, 2020, 08:34:12 PM
Man, I hope this isn’t true (http://www.newscientist.com/article/2237475-covid-19-news-who-says-europe-can-expect-to-see-a-rise-in-deaths/). Those guys lockdown so hard they’re singing canaries. This cannot be! Are they becoming selfish, too?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on September 15, 2020, 12:20:09 PM


Just simply not true BC. You've either had the virus or eventually you'll get it. No mask, gloves or government lock down is going to prevent that. Your government no matter where it is at can protect you from contracting the virus. The virus doesn't follow government protocols, distancing or anything else. There has pretty much been mandated lock downs world wide it has essentially achieved exactly dick
That's untrue.  Look at Canada's rate of infection vs that of the US, despite the fact Canada has a slightly higher median age.  Canada also has a slightly higher level of urbanization, but likely, less population density than large American cities.  The difference in infection rates (20,423/1 million vs 3,664/1 million) is probably down to social distancing protocols and shutting down offices and schools in cities from mid March to June.  The reason this was done was to not overwhelm our healthcare system.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: jone on September 15, 2020, 12:39:12 PM
As soon as it is proved out, it will be patented in China - by the Chinese Govmt, who sill demonstrate that it is really their vaccine.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 15, 2020, 01:06:56 PM
As soon as it is proved out, it will be patented in China - by the Chinese Govmt, who sill demonstrate that it is really their vaccine.

Keep going..... China offers 300 million doses  to us for half the price if we had to produce it....and we buy them. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on September 15, 2020, 01:07:23 PM
That's untrue.  Look at Canada's rate of infection vs that of the US, despite the fact Canada has a slightly higher median age.  Canada also has a slightly higher level of urbanization, but likely, less population density than large American cities.  The difference in infection rates (20,423/1 million vs 3,664/1 million) is probably down to social distancing protocols and shutting down offices and schools in cities from mid March to June.  The reason this was done was to not overwhelm our healthcare system.

This post was composed without the aid of google.

Pure conjecture.

The lock downs were supposedly to slow the spread and not overwhelm the healthcare systems here, too. Well the healthcare system was not overwhelmed and the virus still spreads today pretty much unabated. Again, masks are no protection, the government can not protect you and it's mandates will not protect you. The world has gone ape shit crazy on numerous levels one of the most serious levels is projecting and selling voodoo as science.

Canada isn't the USA. The spread of the virus and the differences of the two countries pertaining to the virus is like apple to oranges.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on September 15, 2020, 01:24:36 PM
Pure conjecture.

The lock downs were supposedly to slow the spread and not overwhelm the healthcare systems here, too. Well the healthcare system was not overwhelmed and the virus still spreads today pretty much unabated. Again, masks are no protection, the government can not protect you and it's mandates will not protect you. The world has gone ape shit crazy on numerous levels one of the most serious levels is projecting and selling voodoo as science.

Canada isn't the USA. The spread of the virus and the differences of the two countries pertaining to the virus is like apple to oranges.

'Pure conjecture' but based on sound reasoning ..

New York was overwhelmed for a time.

The world hasn't gone 'shit crazy' ..just the folks who demand their personal freedom over common sense

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on September 15, 2020, 02:03:41 PM
'Pure conjecture' but based on sound reasoning ..

New York was overwhelmed for a time.

The world hasn't gone 'shit crazy' ..just the folks who demand their personal freedom over common sense

1 - No it isn't. That reasoning is as sound as voodoo

2 - Wrong again.

3 - I can see where a man of your "stature" would believe this world is as normal as ever. Those who would give up freedom for security deserve neither
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on September 15, 2020, 02:06:57 PM
Pure conjecture.

The lock downs were supposedly to slow the spread and not overwhelm the healthcare systems here, too. Well the healthcare system was not overwhelmed and the virus still spreads today pretty much unabated. Again, masks are no protection, the government can not protect you and it's mandates will not protect you. The world has gone ape shit crazy on numerous levels one of the most serious levels is projecting and selling voodoo as science.

Canada isn't the USA. The spread of the virus and the differences of the two countries pertaining to the virus is like apple to oranges.

The spread isn't pretty much unabated.  In countries where there were lockdowns or measures to slow down the spread, that is exactly what happened. 

No, it isn't apples and oranges, unless you look at one country taking early measures to contain transmission, and another that didn't.  Or, unless people catch the virus differently, depending on the country in which they live.

How, exactly, are you giving up freedom by wearing a mask in pubic? Or working from home for a period, when the virus was at its peak?

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 15, 2020, 09:49:43 PM


Russia's excess deaths outstrip the Covid toll by 3 to 1.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/russian-excess-deaths-over-summer-142518552.html

Here's a chart for America's death per week for the last three years. If it's over the yellow line, it's excess deaths.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm#dashboard

Years from now when historians calculate the World's death toll from COVID, they will not trust the numbers nations report. They will use the amount of excess deaths over expected deaths if Covid never existed.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 16, 2020, 06:00:44 AM
ANTIBODY THERAPEUTIC MEDICINE NEWS

The University of Pittsburgh has "...isolated the smallest biological molecule to date that completely and specifically neutralizes the SARS-CoV-2 virus."   It is 1/10th the size of antibodies found in convalescent plasma from recovering infections. 

It is not a vaccine because it is not an antigen that stimulates the human body to produce antibodies.   Instead it is a therapeutic that attacks the virus directly in infected patients. 

The tests were performed on mice and hamsters, and have not yet been tried in humans.  However, in vitro tests show it does not bind to human cells, suggesting it will be safe for use. 

It can be manufactured commercially, and then administered by various methods including inhalation.  It will also function as a prophylactic

Another reason why COVID is "toast."

http://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)31148-X

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 17, 2020, 09:07:23 AM

Democratic led States California and Oregon have lifted virus related restrictions that will allow Pac-12 conference to play college football. Please don't blame Trump for not taking the virus seriously.

http://www.si.com/college/usc/football/california-oregon-lift-restrictions-to-pave-way-for-pac-12-season
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on September 17, 2020, 12:32:19 PM
A peer reviewed study from Cambridge University concludes COVID is not man made, and that it has not been mutating.


http://royalsociety.org/-/media/policy/projects/set-c/set-c-genome-analysis.pdf?la=en-GB&hash=CF1883F618E851FF269487B02AB19CF8 (http://royalsociety.org/-/media/policy/projects/set-c/set-c-genome-analysis.pdf?la=en-GB&hash=CF1883F618E851FF269487B02AB19CF8)

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on September 17, 2020, 12:47:16 PM
Hi Boethius!

Your summary shocked me...

I firmly believed there have been mutations...


So I read your link...

"Genome change in SARS-CoV-2 is slow compared to most
RNA viruses but, nonetheless, mutations arise that can be
used to trace virus spread and evolution."

Did I miss something? )


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on September 17, 2020, 12:55:11 PM
The mutations are normal, not rapid (as claimed previously), and therefore, from what I've read, a vaccine would be effective and would work even on the mutations.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on September 17, 2020, 01:25:48 PM
Patriots For Truth

CV19 was a pre-planned bioweapon.

(Warning, this article is the opposite of "conventional wisdom")

http://patriots4truth.org/2020/01/28/corona-virus-is-a-globalist-bioweapon/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 17, 2020, 01:59:23 PM
A peer reviewed study from Cambridge University concludes COVID is not man made, and that it has not been mutating.


http://royalsociety.org/-/media/policy/projects/set-c/set-c-genome-analysis.pdf?la=en-GB&hash=CF1883F618E851FF269487B02AB19CF8 (http://royalsociety.org/-/media/policy/projects/set-c/set-c-genome-analysis.pdf?la=en-GB&hash=CF1883F618E851FF269487B02AB19CF8)

This post was composed without the aid of google.



A lot of their references to studies come from China. If any animal on earth carried the virus in our bodies, we would've searched and destroyed them so we don't have a repeat in the future. It's too expensive to allow this to happen again. Responsible governments would hunt for those animals down but they don't because those animals don't exist.

The virus is not artificially man made as the report states but evolution of the virus has been sped up. For example, it would be extremely rare for an infected bat to bite a deer and that deer gets successfully infected and then a human undercooks the meat and gets infected by a coronavirus that mutated in the deer enough to be able to attached itself to human cells. Why wait for extremely rare events? We can speed up evolution by putting that bat coronavirus in 1000 petri dishes with deer cells everyday increasing the chance of mutation within one of those petri dishes and when we have a successful mutation, we can put that mutated coronavirus in 1000 petri dishes with human cells everyday until we find a coronavirus that has learned to attach itself to human cells. Then we can take that coronavirus and grow even more. We can study it to see if it can be used as a biological weapon. Every major nation is doing or done these things in their quest for biological weapons.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on September 17, 2020, 02:50:17 PM
Democratic led States California and Oregon have lifted virus related restrictions that will allow Pac-12 conference to play college football. Please don't blame Trump for not taking the virus seriously.

http://www.si.com/college/usc/football/california-oregon-lift-restrictions-to-pave-way-for-pac-12-season (http://www.si.com/college/usc/football/california-oregon-lift-restrictions-to-pave-way-for-pac-12-season)


Biliions in revenue will be lost to the NCAA if they continue this silliness. They know by now that come day after the election, all these silly mind games will immediately fade to black.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on September 17, 2020, 03:10:14 PM
A lot of their references to studies come from China.


Wrong.  Many of the authors referenced have Chinese surnames, but the studies are multi jurisdictional.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on September 17, 2020, 04:33:48 PM
A peer reviewed study from Cambridge University concludes COVID is not man made, and that it has not been mutating.


http://royalsociety.org/-/media/policy/projects/set-c/set-c-genome-analysis.pdf?la=en-GB&hash=CF1883F618E851FF269487B02AB19CF8 (http://royalsociety.org/-/media/policy/projects/set-c/set-c-genome-analysis.pdf?la=en-GB&hash=CF1883F618E851FF269487B02AB19CF8)

This post was composed without the aid of google.


Some have other ideas. Some of them closer to the situation

http://today.rtl.lu/news/science-and-environment/a/1579612.html (http://today.rtl.lu/news/science-and-environment/a/1579612.html)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 17, 2020, 05:25:13 PM

Wrong.  Many of the authors referenced have Chinese surnames, but the studies are multi jurisdictional.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

Google is the modern day encyclopedia. You should use it more often. In your link, I picked a Chinese name in Reference #51 which leads me to the website below. Multinational people worked on the project but it wasn't peer reviewed but the people in your link decided to use their study anyway as if it is valid.

http://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.12.148726v1.full.pdf+html

In the above link I clicked on PDF to get more detail info and picked a Chinese name at Reference #3 and it led me to the site below.

http://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2179-y

Check out all the References there that lead to 100% Chinese studies. The Chinese government controls which data gets released. Nature magazine was the first to release Chinese propaganda that says the virus wasn't made in a lab. We've discussed this in detail on the forum months ago. I suspect more of the references in your link talking about the origin of the virus will lead to Nature magazine and their references to Chinese studies which are basically propaganda, propaganda apparently still used today.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on September 17, 2020, 05:55:09 PM
Some have other ideas. Some of them closer to the situation

http://today.rtl.lu/news/science-and-environment/a/1579612.html (http://today.rtl.lu/news/science-and-environment/a/1579612.html)

Many scientists disagree.

http://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-does-new-study-give-evidence-that-coronavirus-was-made-lab-1532068 (http://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-does-new-study-give-evidence-that-coronavirus-was-made-lab-1532068)


Google is the modern day encyclopedia. You should use it more often. In your link, I picked a Chinese name in Reference #51 which leads me to the website below. Multinational people worked on the project but it wasn't peer reviewed but the people in your link decided to use their study anyway as if it is valid.

http://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.12.148726v1.full.pdf+html (http://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.06.12.148726v1.full.pdf+html)


Every author in the first link works out of the Scripps institute in Florida.  Every author in the second link works at the University of Minnesota.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 17, 2020, 06:12:12 PM
Many scientists disagree.

http://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-does-new-study-give-evidence-that-coronavirus-was-made-lab-1532068 (http://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-does-new-study-give-evidence-that-coronavirus-was-made-lab-1532068)



Another fact check. Fact checkers always tell the truth!





Every author in the first link works out of the Scripps institute in Florida.  Every author in the second link works at the University of Minnesota.



Those authors used other people's work that wasn't peer reviewed to help form their analysis. Don't blame me for not trusting their work.


The Chinese scientist in Faux Pas's link escaped from China and she has given numerous speeches. In one speech she said she will show us how China created the virus by replicating the procedure in a lab.


The Wuhan lab does work with the closest known relative of SARS-CoV-2, which is a bat coronavirus called RaTG13, [color=rgb(255, 114, 0) !important]evolutionary[/color][/font] virologist Edward Holmes, of the Charles Perkins Center and the Marie Bashir Institute for Infectious Diseases and Biosecurity at the University of Sydney, said in a statement from the Australian Media Center. But, he added, "the level of genome sequence divergence between SARS-CoV-2 and RaTG13 is equivalent to an average of 50 years (and at least 20 years) of [color=rgb(255, 114, 0) !important]evolutionary[/color] change." (That means that in the wild, it would take about 50 years for these viruses to evolve to be as different as they are.)

Though no scientists have come forth with even a speck of evidence that humans knowingly manipulated a virus using some sort of genetic engineering, a researcher at Flinders University in South Australia lays out another scenario that involves human intervention. Bat coronaviruses can be cultured in lab dishes with cells that have the human ACE2 receptor; over time, the virus will gain adaptations that let it efficiently bind to those receptors. Along the way, that virus would pick up random genetic mutations that pop up but don't do anything noticeable, said Nikolai Petrovsky, in the College of Medicine and Public Health at Flinders.

"The result of these experiments is a virus that is highly virulent in humans but is sufficiently different that it no longer resembles the original bat virus," Petrovsky said in a statement from the Australian Media Center. "Because the mutations are acquired randomly by selection, there is no signature of a human gene jockey, but this is clearly a virus still created by human intervention."[/b]
http://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-wuhan-lab-complicated-origins.html (http://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-wuhan-lab-complicated-origins.html)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on September 17, 2020, 06:14:40 PM
Many scientists disagree.

http://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-does-new-study-give-evidence-that-coronavirus-was-made-lab-1532068 (http://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-does-new-study-give-evidence-that-coronavirus-was-made-lab-1532068)


Many scientists agree so where does that leave us? IIRC I pointed out early on it had all the ear markings of a bioweapon to which you vehemently disagreed. I suspect the truth is yet to be discovered here
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on September 17, 2020, 06:18:04 PM

Another fact check. Fact checkers always tell the truth!





Those authors used other people's work that wasn't peer reviewed to help form their analysis. Don't blame me for not trusting their work.


The Chinese scientist in Faux Pas's link escaped from China and she has given numerous speeches. In one speech she said she will show us how China created the virus by replicating the procedure in a lab.



Unfortunately she has been banned on social media platforms. Almost a sure sign she speaks some truth. She's not silenced, yet
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 17, 2020, 06:30:46 PM



Part of the problem is TDS(Trump Derangement Syndrome) which a lot of scientists are diagnosed with. Trump claimed he seen evidence that the virus was made in a lab. Scientists go out of their way to prove him wrong and then claim he doesn't believe in science. Of course science can happen in a lab. Nations developing bioweapons take viruses and bacteria and hope to change them into a superweapon. Speeding up evolution in a lab is one method to achieving results. Even a person who's not a scientist can see that is a possibility but there's too much anti Trump, pro China propaganda out there that claims there's no way the virus in our body could've been created in a lab. What are the chances the virus of the century showed up near the only facility in China that is qualified to house it? SARS from 2002 is still studied in Chinese labs and it has escaped 6 times. China has a poor record of keeping bacteria and viruses from escaping their labs. I'm not surprise their new Frankenstein escaped.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: mhr7 on September 17, 2020, 08:09:11 PM
Part of the problem is TDS(Trump Derangement Syndrome) which a lot of scientists are diagnosed with. Trump claimed he seen evidence that the virus was made in a lab. Scientists go out of their way to prove him wrong and then claim he doesn't believe in science.

Yeah, that's the problem. Scientists going out of their way to prove Trump wrong, because they don't have anything better to do. I think you nailed it Billy.  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: mhr7 on September 17, 2020, 08:33:21 PM
Unfortunately she has been banned on social media platforms. Almost a sure sign she speaks some truth. She's not silenced, yet

Are you becoming confederate?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on September 17, 2020, 08:37:24 PM


Part of the problem is TDS(Trump Derangement Syndrome) which a lot of scientists are diagnosed with. Trump claimed he seen evidence that the virus was made in a lab. Scientists go out of their way to prove him wrong and then claim he doesn't believe in science. Of course science can happen in a lab. Nations developing bioweapons take viruses and bacteria and hope to change them into a superweapon. Speeding up evolution in a lab is one method to achieving results. Even a person who's not a scientist can see that is a possibility but there's too much anti Trump, pro China propaganda out there that claims there's no way the virus in our body could've been created in a lab. What are the chances the virus of the century showed up near the only facility in China that is qualified to house it? SARS from 2002 is still studied in Chinese labs and it has escaped 6 times. China has a poor record of keeping bacteria and viruses from escaping their labs. I'm not surprise their new Frankenstein escaped.

Those same scientists were the first to declare this virus developed in the wet market 500 yards from the Wuhan lab denying that it could have escaped from the lab. In 2018 the Wuhan lab it was found was quite lax in security for a supposedly highly secure lab. There is grants paid to the lab from the Obama administration (why does the Barry admin give grants to a lab in Wuhan China, supported by our own Dr. Fauci btw anyway?) The old adage "if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, it's probably a fuggin duck"
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on September 17, 2020, 08:40:56 PM
Yeah, that's the problem. Scientists going out of their way to prove Trump wrong, because they don't have anything better to do. I think you nailed it Billy.  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Are you becoming confederate?

You're a bit of an enigma to me. Much of the time you appear to be an intelligent sort but then other times you seem to be sucking the koolaid down about as fast as they hand it to you. I know you are voting Biden but, can you tell me 3 reasons why without mentioning Trump?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 17, 2020, 10:36:15 PM


Politifact fact checking is calling the Chinese scientist a liar. As proof, they put a link to the Nature website which used Chinese studies to come to their conclusion the virus wasn't made in a lab. Lol. Politifact is run by the Polynter Institute which is owned by the Tampa Bay Times, the most liberal newspaper in America based on the fact they never endorse Republicans. Politifact is staffed by liberal journalists. I can fact check better than journalists who have reputations for lying on political issues.

http://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/sep/16/li-meng-yan/tucker-carlson-guest-airs-debunked-conspiracy-theo/

Speaking of the now famous Nature website that broke the story the virus in our body didn't come from a lab, here is a 2017 Nature article saying China's New and only level 4 lab in Wuhan has plans to house the world's most dangerous pathogens including zoonotic viruses — those that jump to humans from animals, such as SARS or Ebola. The article also states SARS escaped from Chinese labs multiple times. Who here thinks China's intention is to just study viruses and doesn't have a biological weapons program?

http://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on September 17, 2020, 11:35:10 PM

Politifact fact checking is calling the Chinese scientist a liar. As proof, they put a link to the Nature website which used Chinese studies to come to their conclusion the virus wasn't made in a lab. Lol. Politifact is run by the Polynter Institute which is owned by the Tampa Bay Times, the most liberal newspaper in America based on the fact they never endorse Republicans. Politifact is staffed by liberal journalists. I can fact check better than journalists who have reputations for lying on political issues.

http://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/sep/16/li-meng-yan/tucker-carlson-guest-airs-debunked-conspiracy-theo/

Speaking of the now famous Nature website that broke the story the virus in our body didn't come from a lab, here is a 2017 Nature article saying China's New and only level 4 lab in Wuhan has plans to house the world's most dangerous pathogens including zoonotic viruses — those that jump to humans from animals, such as SARS or Ebola. The article also states SARS escaped from Chinese labs multiple times. Who here thinks China's intention is to just study viruses and doesn't have a biological weapons program?

http://www.nature.com/news/inside-the-chinese-lab-poised-to-study-world-s-most-dangerous-pathogens-1.21487

IIRC Forbes or possibly Fortune magazine broke the story that it was definitely a bio engineered weapon about 6 weeks ago or so. Then within a few hours the internet was scrubbed and the story disappeared.

It's sort of like the University of Fairbanks study which proves unequivocally that NIST lied about WTC7 and also the New York Fire Commissioners who say that with 100% certainty all three buildings were brought down by controlled demolitions.

Both Conservatives and Liberals don't believe a story unless:

A) big corporate media covers it
and
B) the government says it's true.

If big corporate media doesn't cover the story, in their mind it isn't real and it didn't happen.

The FBI could be getting sued for covering up evidence and lying to Congress about 9/11, which they are right now in Federal court in NY City.

But if the major media outlets (Pravda, LOL!) are not covering it, they will remain blissfully unaware that the crime of the Century was an inside job.

They simply cannot comprehend nor accept that US media is just as corrupt, or more so, then (insert evil empire name here).

And due to cognitive dissonance and an inability to comprehend that big governments throughout history have done evil incomprehensible things, it just doesn't compute.

Much too easy to label stuff "conspiracy blah blah".
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on September 17, 2020, 11:45:42 PM
Yeah, that's the problem. Scientists going out of their way to prove Trump wrong, because they don't have anything better to do. I think you nailed it Billy.  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

He probably did nail it. Does that bother you?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on September 17, 2020, 11:50:31 PM
Are you becoming confederate?

Thx for the compliment!

However Faux Pas would need to be more pro-Iranian and be able to see through the propaganda of zionist warmongers.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: mhr7 on September 18, 2020, 10:07:40 AM
He probably did nail it. Does that bother you?

If both you and Billy agree on something then I'm very sure it has ZERO credibility.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: mhr7 on September 18, 2020, 10:12:52 AM
Much too easy to label stuff "conspiracy blah blah".

Because that is, in fact, what it is.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on September 18, 2020, 10:21:57 AM
Many scientists agree so where does that leave us? IIRC I pointed out early on it had all the ear markings of a bioweapon to which you vehemently disagreed. I suspect the truth is yet to be discovered here


No, many scientists don't agree.  The "source" you cited used such laudable secondary sources as a Linkedin article by a scientist who is not an expert in the field, a blog article, and an article by an anti GM foods website for her paper.  Her paper is not peer reviewed, and none of her co authors have any published works.


Please point me to peer reviewed studies.  The Royal Society synopsis I linked (paper also is online) is peer reviewed.


This post was composed without the aid of google.



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: mhr7 on September 18, 2020, 10:26:30 AM
You're a bit of an enigma to me. Much of the time you appear to be an intelligent sort but then other times you seem to be sucking the koolaid down about as fast as they hand it to you. I know you are voting Biden but, can you tell me 3 reasons why without mentioning Trump?

1. Expanded health care coverage
2. Better job handling Covid-19
3. Re-establishing relationships with our allies.

He doesn't want to be a god but is actually a little boy, unlike his opponent.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on September 18, 2020, 10:27:50 AM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/lb200917cd20200917115654.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 18, 2020, 10:41:49 AM

Yeah, that's the problem. Scientists going out of their way to prove Trump wrong, because they don't have anything better to do. I think you nailed it Billy.  :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


it would be extremely rare for an infected bat to bite a deer and that deer gets successfully infected and then a human undercooks the deer meat and gets infected by a coronavirus that mutated within the deer enough to be able to attached itself to human cells. Why wait for extremely rare events? We can speed up evolution by putting that bat coronavirus in 1000 petri dishes with deer cells everyday increasing the chance of mutation within one of those petri dishes and when we have a successful mutation, we can put that mutated coronavirus in 1000 petri dishes with human cells everyday until we find a coronavirus that has learned to attach itself to human cells. Then we can take that coronavirus and grow even more. We can study it to see if it can be used as a biological weapon. Every major nation is doing or done these things in their quest for biological weapons.


If scientists are claiming there is zero chance the virus in our body was created in a lab and claim the speeding up of evolution can't happen in a lab, then they are stupid or suffering from TDS. You don't have to believe me. I put out an article with an evolutionary virologist from Australia saying man can speed up of evolution of viruses in a lab. Even a child can understand the process of speeding up evolution is possible and the process is simple. It's not as complicated as trying to manipulate DNA or RNA.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on September 18, 2020, 10:49:19 AM

No, many scientists don't agree.  The "source" you cited used such laudable secondary sources as a Linkedin article by a scientist who is not an expert in the field, a blog article, and an article by an anti GM foods website for her paper.  Her paper is not peer reviewed, and none of her co authors have any published works.


Please point me to peer reviewed studies.  The Royal Society synopsis I linked (paper also is online) is peer reviewed.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

Yes many do agree. Your contention that a few academics in Cambridge who never actually investigated the virus know more that Dr Li-Meng, a top Virologist in her field, who did indeed investigate the covid-19 in and at the lab in Wuhan China. Yeah let's just discount her as a quack because she doesn't follow the same narrative as your beloved scientist.

Nah, I won't be pointing you anywhere. You stick with your version and I'll stick with mine
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on September 18, 2020, 10:49:48 AM
Unfortunately she has been banned on social media platforms. Almost a sure sign she speaks some truth. She's not silenced, yet
Quote
Twitter has suspended the account of a Chinese virologist who has claimed that COVID-19 was manufactured in a laboratory.
Dr. Li-Meng Yan, a former researcher at the Hong Kong School of Public Health, went dark on the platform after she accused China of covering up evidence (http://nypost.com/2020/09/11/chinese-virologist-says-she-has-proof-covid-19-was-made-in-wuhan-lab/) that the deadly virus came from a lab in Wuhan.
“They don’t want the people to know this truth. Also, that’s why I got suspended, I got suppression [and] I am the target that China Communist Part wants to [sic] disappear,” she told Fox News host Tucker Carlson (http://www.foxnews.com/media/chinese-virologist-government-intentionally-coronavirus) on Tuesday.
Carlson responded, “I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt so I’m going to assume you’re not an anti-Chinese racist so it’s not clear why Twitter would shut you down or why you’re being ignored by the rest of the US media.”
Twitter declined to comment to The Post on Wednesday.
http://nypost.com/2020/09/16/twitter-suspends-virologist-who-claims-covid-19-was-made-in-lab/


 (http://nypost.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2020/09/200916-li-meng-yan.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&w=662)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on September 18, 2020, 10:54:13 AM
1. Expanded health care coverage
2. Better job handling Covid-19
3. Re-establishing relationships with our allies.

He doesn't want to be a god but is actually a little boy, unlike his opponent.

You're being intellectually lazy. Sounds like the earlier talking points on MSNBC. Trump did an excellent job on the handling of covid.What exactly do you compare his handling to? Re-establishing relationships with our allies? Please expand on that. You mean the ones Obama mishandled? Like the Paris agreement, Iran treaty or the TPP?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on September 18, 2020, 11:03:17 AM
Yes many do agree. Your contention that a few academics in Cambridge who never actually investigated the virus know more that Dr Li-Meng, a top Virologist in her field, who did indeed investigate the covid-19 in and at the lab in Wuhan China. Yeah let's just discount her as a quack because she doesn't follow the same narrative as your beloved scientist.

Nah, I won't be pointing you anywhere. You stick with your version and I'll stick with mine


You won't point me anywhere because you can't.  The Royal Society has cited numerous other sources in their paper, and this is not the first Western expert who has stated the genome is natural, not lab produced.  I cited another one at the start of the epidemic.


How do you now Dr. Li is a top virologist?  Do you have any credentials, beyond what Dr. Li tells us, to substantiate that?  No, I didn't think so. 


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 18, 2020, 11:34:14 AM
How do you now Dr. Li is a top virologist?  Do you have any credentials, beyond what Dr. Li tells us, to substantiate that?  No, I didn't think so. 


To filter out the massive articles about her in 2020, do a Google search of her name from 2019 and earlier and you'll see her credentials. She has a PhD, is recognized by WHO, and has been involved in 14 publications.

http://hk.linkedin.com/in/scarlett-li-meng-yan-92b851171

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Limeng_Yan

http://virtual.keystonesymposia.org/ks/speakers/view/1097
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on September 18, 2020, 11:35:08 AM
How do you now Dr. Li is a top virologist?  Do you have any credentials, beyond what Dr. Li tells us, to substantiate that?  No, I didn't think so.
Quote
At the time of the COVID-19 pandemic she was employed at the Hong Kong School of Public Health, University of Hong Kong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Hong_Kong) (HKU), conducting research specialised in virology and immunology.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Meng_Yan#cite_note-8)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Meng_Yan
 She must be onto something...the Chinese honchos want to kill her and she is in the USA hiding somewhere undisclosed. One of her colleagues [I understand] is reported "missing". 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on September 18, 2020, 11:37:28 AM
To filter out the massive articles about her in 2020, do a Google search of her name ...
Boe consistently reports that she does not [seemingly] utilize google.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on September 18, 2020, 11:41:45 AM
Boe consistently reports that she does not [seemingly] utilize google.

If I use google, I will post that google was used.

I read broadly.  I don't use google to access articles.  Most google searches are inaccurate, or are skewed based on either popularity, or a company paying to be a top google search.  So, google is biased.

Dr. Li may have a PhD, and done research, but that doesn't mean she is a top recognized expert in her field.  I certainly wouldn't take the word of a construction worker on who is, or is not, a recognized expert in the fields of virology or epidemiology, just as I wouldn't take the word of a virologist or epidemiologist on who is an expert in construction.

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on September 18, 2020, 12:59:57 PM
Because that is, in fact, what it is.

Please express your opinion to the Fire Commissioners who made history in their declaration.

They are the true professionals who were actually there and lost loved ones.

There are also thousands of Architects & Engineers who have spent nearly two decades studying this event and who disagree with the white-washed official narrative.

It's rather easy to be dismissive when you haven't studied the event nor read the objective findings of professionals in the industry who have.

Quote

"They started off by saying the Pledge of Allegiance. Ten minutes later, they were reading the text of a resolution claiming the existence of “overwhelming evidence” that “pre-planted explosives . . . caused the destruction of the three World Trade Center buildings.”

And so it was, on July 24, 2019 — nearly 18 years after the horrific attacks that traumatized a nation and changed the world forever — the Franklin Square and Munson Fire District, which oversees a volunteer fire department serving a hamlet of 30,000 residents just outside of Queens, New York, became the first legislative body in the country to officially support a new investigation into the events of 9/11."

http://action.ae911truth.org/o/50694/t/0/blastContent.jsp?email_blast_KEY=1402314
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on September 18, 2020, 04:10:47 PM
...“overwhelming evidence” that “pre-planted explosives . . . caused the destruction of the three World Trade Center buildings.”


Maybe on another thread...but quickly, assuming they know how long it'll take, and what needs to be done, to plant explosives for a controlled demolition of a building, much less buildings like the Twin Towers (110 stories high - employs about 50,000+ employees PER building - and additional foot traffic of about a quarter of a million visitors) every single day and no one noticed!!!

That's a lot of explosives, wires, etc all through 110 stories high of corners, struts, columns, etc...

Confederate, let me know how they managed this as it would be a revelation how they got that accomplished (not focusing on you, just the idea you threw out there with this).


add: To make this even more impressive - have a couple of 737s hit the two buildings precisely the exact floors where explosives weren't drilled into or otherwise the fires would've prematurely detonated the plugs and that would've been a dead giveaway. Even if everyone simply ignored the explosion..


Here's a nice example of this...


http://youtu.be/SaBQ3AkRetI
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 18, 2020, 05:44:13 PM

Maybe on another thread...but quickly, assuming they know how long it'll take, and what needs to be done, to plant explosives for a controlled demolition of a building, much less buildings like the Twin Towers (110 stories high - employs about 50,000+ employees PER building - and additional foot traffic of about a quarter of a million visitors) every single day and no one noticed!!!

That's a lot of explosives, wires, etc all through 110 stories high of corners, struts, columns, etc...

Confederate, let me know how they managed this as it would be a revelation how they got that accomplished (not focusing on you, just the idea you threw out there with this).

add: To make this even more impressive - have a couple of 737s hit the two buildings precisely the exact floors where explosives weren't drilled into or otherwise the fires would've prematurely detonated the plugs and that would've been a dead giveaway. Even if everyone simply ignored the explosion..


I've been through this with Confederate elsewhere. It would take multiple teams of demolition experts many days of noisy drilling into columns to insert explosives and there would be massive amounts of noise and concrete dust everywhere. Those buildings are occupied 24/7 so it would be hard to conduct that kind of activity without anybody knowing. Also every member of the demo team would need to take this evil act to the grave. I'm sure somebody would be taking by now but it hasn't happened. What we do know for a fact is there are Muslim terrorists that want to kill Americans and bring the World Trade Center down. Their first bombing of the WTC was in 1993. Clinton should've done his job and kill the guys responsible because they learned they needed something bigger than trucks.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BdHvA on September 18, 2020, 07:14:37 PM
Likewise I have also attempted to explain simple realities but some will stick to there alternative conspiracies, and promote them. Such is the times we live in.

If one understands the construction and design engineering of the World Trade Center you will understand that in fact the buildings were not built with concrete. Stating that I am not sure how building #3 was built, but in fact it is does NOT change the reason it also collapsed.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: mhr7 on September 18, 2020, 08:19:04 PM
You're being intellectually lazy. Sounds like the earlier talking points on MSNBC. Trump did an excellent job on the handling of covid.What exactly do you compare his handling to? Re-establishing relationships with our allies? Please expand on that. You mean the ones Obama mishandled? Like the Paris agreement, Iran treaty or the TPP?

Trump lied to the public on several occasions, he wanted to re-open the country way too early and he still has his rallies where few of his adorers wear masks because he's politicized mask wearing. He constantly contradicts the experts. His new expert is an expert on MRIs and has no experience with pandemics but he agrees with the president and that's all that matters, another 'yes man' for Trump's administration. He has done and is still doing a shit job with Covid.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 18, 2020, 08:39:29 PM
Elevator shafts and stair case walls of all high rise buildings are engineered to be the strongest part of a building and are made of concrete. If there is an earthquake, the elevator and stair cases is the place to hide and best place to survive should the building come down. The WTC is a rare design since most of it's support columns are on the outside of the building and are steel. Another reason it would be hard for a demo team to work since they'd have to work by a window or outside to drill into those columns. Whether the column is steel or concrete they must be drilled into to install explosives. When in a building with interior steel columns, you won't be able to see the steel. Most likely it will be covered in fireproof material and surrounded by drywall, stucco(cement product) or another product. There will be dust when drilling unless demo of the material covering the columns happen first so instead of dust, there will be a big mess.

A couple of links talking about the WTC inner core columns consist of steel and concrete.

http://web.mit.edu/civenv/wtc/PDFfiles/Chapter%20VI%20Materials%20&%20Structures.pdf

http://216.92.228.100/conc/core.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on September 18, 2020, 08:57:15 PM
Trump lied to the public on several occasions

What lies?

Quote
he wanted to re-open the country way too early and he still has his rallies where few of his adorers wear masks because he's politicized mask wearing.

No he did not. He wanted the country open as soon as possible. It is only too soon to your liberal MSM

Quote
He constantly contradicts the experts.

That is just a lie and you have nothing to substantiate that. He is listening to experts 24/7. While you might think the experts are president, they are not. Trump is and whatever decisions are to be made are his

Quote
His new expert is an expert on MRIs and has no experience with pandemics but he agrees with the president and that's all that matters, another 'yes man' for Trump's administration.

Who exactly is an expert on pandemics and what qualifies them as an expert?

Quote
He has done and is still doing a shit job with Covid.

Compared to what or whom? You're drinking the Kool aid brah #walkaway
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on September 18, 2020, 11:34:26 PM
The sense of denial in some re the handing of COVID-19 is strong this morning
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 18, 2020, 11:49:00 PM

I found this televangelist  preacher on youtube and he used his own unique methods to abolish COVID in March and April. Based on what we see today, he failed. I watch his other videos and this guy speaks in tongues and some of his congregation dances and does other weird things as if they are possessed. If you never seen this type of American preacher in action, watch the two short videos to be amused. Don't laugh, I checked Wiki and he's worth 300 million.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2s0nB2VPvs


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSIrQBGfUtw




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 19, 2020, 08:01:14 AM
Today, the US will surpass the UK in the number of deaths per million.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 19, 2020, 09:30:19 AM

Tomorrow, there will be NFL football on tv. BC, I think most people have accepted this as the new norm until a vaccine comes out. All of us will have to alter our lives to some degree but we're not going to alter our lives so much to where we'll hide in our homes 24/7 and wreck the nation's economy. We all know there's a risk dying in a car wreck yet we continue to drive anyway. The desire to move forward in life is too great.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 19, 2020, 10:17:56 AM
Folks are not hiding here either BillyB.  Our 'new normal' started a couple of months ago and life continues pretty much as before.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on September 19, 2020, 10:19:25 AM
Today, the US will surpass the UK in the number of deaths per million.

Probably not, in reality

The UK govt massaged the figures downwards ..

Going by the Office of National Statistics figures .. that dubious honour is still safe
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on September 19, 2020, 10:24:05 AM
We all know there's a risk dying in a car wreck yet we continue to drive anyway.

There is a big difference between virtually necessary risks and discretionary risks.

For instance:  I fly to various cities and countries.  However, in those places (or actually any location) I will not ride on Ferris Wheels, take a cable car up a mountain side and other such.

My hosts often point out how I am inconsistent by flying, yet refusing to ride on Ferris Wheel.

But they do not understand the difference between virtually required risk taking and optional risk taking.

Similarly, I will put my money at risk in a well diversified Mutual Fund, but I will not (I did so earlier in life) put my money in a 'hot tip' heard at the barber shop.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: jone on September 19, 2020, 10:58:22 AM
There is a big difference between virtually necessary risks and discretionary risks.

For instance:  I fly to various cities and countries.  However, in those places (or actually any location) I will not ride on Ferris Wheels, take a cable car up a mountain side and other such.

My hosts often point out how I am inconsistent by flying, yet refusing to ride on Ferris Wheel.

But they do not understand the difference between virtually required risk taking and optional risk taking.

Similarly, I will put my money at risk in a well diversified Mutual Fund, but I will not (I did so earlier in life) put my money in a 'hot tip' heard at the barber shop.

How do you do on the Merry-Go-Round?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on September 19, 2020, 02:55:49 PM
How do you do on the Merry-Go-Round?

Depends on how fast Mary is.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: mhr7 on September 19, 2020, 09:53:29 PM
What lies?

No he did not. He wanted the country open as soon as possible. It is only too soon to your liberal MSM
 
That is just a lie and you have nothing to substantiate that. He is listening to experts 24/7. While you might think the experts are president, they are not. Trump is and whatever decisions are to be made are his

Who exactly is an expert on pandemics and what qualifies them as an expert?

Compared to what or whom? You're drinking the Kool aid brah #walkaway

I'm sure you can easily answer your own questions, I'm not wasting my time.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on September 20, 2020, 06:55:09 AM
I'm sure you can easily answer your own questions, I'm not wasting my time.

I already know the answers. I also know you do to but are afraid to answer them. Doing so would force you to question what you so blindly follow
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: mhr7 on September 20, 2020, 02:30:20 PM
I already know the answers. I also know you do to but are afraid to answer them. Doing so would force you to question what you so blindly follow

I'm not the blind follower here.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on September 20, 2020, 03:50:37 PM
I'm not the blind follower here.

Then answer the follow up questions to your post
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on September 21, 2020, 08:39:03 AM
These guys are (numb)nuts! They're so full of it, they are arguing amongst themselves what to demonize our great POTUS on...

So now the travel Ban (http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/517106-gates-says-travel-ban-made-covid-19-worse-in-us) was the wrong thing to do...LMAO!

Quote from: Fauci
One of the things we did right was very early cut off travel from China to the United States. Because outside of China, where it originated, the countries in the world that have it are through travel, either directly through China or indirectly from someone who went someplace and then came to that particular country. Our shutting off travel from China, and more recently travel from Europe, has gone a long way to not seeding, very, very intensively, the virus in our country!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 21, 2020, 09:14:50 AM
These guys are (numb)nuts! They're so full of it, they are arguing amongst themselves what to demonize our great POTUS on...

So now the travel Ban (http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/517106-gates-says-travel-ban-made-covid-19-worse-in-us) was the wrong thing to do...LMAO!

China had a travel ban too.  Although China allowed international flights to cities around the world, China in late January 2020 banned domestic flights from Wuhan to other Chinese cities.   Why?

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on September 21, 2020, 09:26:34 AM
Because the Chinese knew that Wuhan had a problem....'Some' persist in believing a 'man made' one... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 21, 2020, 12:38:09 PM
Because the Chinese knew that What had a problem....

Yes, that is why the Chinese restricted domestic travel. 

Knowing it was a huge problem, why allow international travel from Wuhan. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on September 21, 2020, 12:57:06 PM
Yes, that is why the Chinese restricted domestic travel. 

Knowing it was a huge problem, why allow international travel from Wuhan.

It only allowed repatriation flights from 23rd January

From the time the virus was know to be a BIG problem, to lockdown, China reacted faster than the US, who had lots of warnings ..and people were flying all over the US from hubs


By then, the horse had bolted, anyway



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on September 21, 2020, 06:42:04 PM
The gift that keeps on giving.  LMAO!

http://youtu.be/8XwgixmCU34

Good ol’ Sleepy Joe.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on September 21, 2020, 06:46:21 PM
The gift that keeps on giving.  LMAO!

http://youtu.be/8XwgixmCU34

Good ol’ Sleepy Joe.

Funny as heck. But Paris Hilton looks better!!

(There was an advert for a Paris documentary right after that played. Paris reminds me of how AW were in the 80's)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on September 21, 2020, 08:52:01 PM
Implantable nano tech to be used in vaccines?

http://thefreedomarticles.com/hydrogel-biosensor-darpa-gates-implantable-nanotech-covid-vaccine/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 21, 2020, 10:42:00 PM

Chinese billionaire who criticized the Chinese President for his handling of the coronavirus disappeared in March. He is found guilty and will be sentenced to 18 years in prison. The Chinese court is one of the best in the world with a 99% conviction success rate.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ren-zhiqiang-chinese-tycoon-who-criticized-xi-jinpings-handling-of-coronavirus-jailed-for-18-years/ar-BB19hzdK?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 22, 2020, 05:19:40 AM
Evidently, it ain't over until the fat lady sings (or we have a vaccine)

(http://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/NcjycNd_VdBxTepPGHAamg4XRzv91W3F7DCCFRbsh30Tdym9nweDB4oF6r7gsqvcCoQWnbZOsf55xFFzEhMNLFN3Dm-_KX_m2dzS0qlrzzlf9NLc5I5Rt4wkVbHg4SSA1MaAxuc0aCDBV5eWtCpb4NhtH1aAtoqOTiiUeM0VQfF2a2s=s0-d-e1-ft#http://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/09/22/multimedia/22-MORNING-FALLSURGE/22-MORNING-FALLSURGE-articleLarge.png) 

Source:  NY Times


My state of Florida has seen a steady decline of weekly cases from 3,000 per million in July (almost twice the national average)  to  800 per million this past week (about equal to the national average).   This decline over the summer resulted from individual behavior because government mitigation measures were not tightened. 

Of particular note is the weekly death rate has remained low, dropping from 40 per million in July to 29 this past week.     

Although Florida has not experienced a noticeable uptick in weekly new cases in Florida, the Europe trend is alarming, particularly considering we never crushed the spread of the virus.   It may be the start of Fall, yet Florida weather is still humid and warm. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on September 22, 2020, 05:48:05 AM
Spain has had an uptick during late summer and pleasant weather..

As have many Greek islands
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 23, 2020, 11:24:42 AM
MORE VACCINE NEWS

Emergency Use Authorization (EUA)

There has been talk of the FDA approving one or more vaccines for emergency use, such as administering to frontline healthcare workers  first responders.  This may eventually happen; however, The FDA rules do not allow this to happen before the election.


Johnson & Johnson  Vaccine

This renown pharmaceutical company is starting Phase III trails on 60,000 volunteers.  The vaccine is using a viral vector platform that has been researched by J&J for years.  Two factors differentiate it from the other Operation Warp Speed vaccines now in Phase 3 trials (Moderna, Pfizer, AZ-Oxford):

           1.  Most of the 60,000 tests are using a single dose.

           2.  If the vaccine proves safe and effective, its broader use is facilitated by not requiring sub-zero temperature storage.
 

Pfizer Vaccine

The Pfizer vaccine has the furthermost progress of the Operation Warp Speed development candidates. It is reporting some early results from its Phase 3 trial involving 44,000 volunteers.  The goal of the trail is to make efficacy determinations upon reaching a total of 164 virus infections among the 44,000 subjects.   To date, only 32 infections have occurred, and an undisclosed number of those are mildly symptomatic.  Also  not disclosed is how many of the infections were in the placebo group vs. the dosed group. 

Making any efficacy determinations before reaching the goal of 164 infections is debatable.   Also, the small number of infections  indicates how rare it is to become infected.   



 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 23, 2020, 11:34:34 AM
   Also, the small number of infections  indicates how rare it is to become infected.

That's difficult to say with any accuracy.  Have to calculate how long since injection (the time they were considered not to have been infected prior) which is variable as all were not given shots at the same time, probably many just getting their second shot along with increased number of subjects from 30k to 44k that is probably ongoing.

Not enough data to support 'rare'. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 23, 2020, 12:28:16 PM
Well, at least Fauci is standing up well to GOP pressure, while Birx reportedly is having some difficulty to toe Trump's line since Trump found someone else that better fits his agenda.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 23, 2020, 12:54:03 PM
Well, at least Fauci is standing up well to GOP pressure, while Birx reportedly is having some difficulty to toe Trump's line since Trump found someone else that better fits his agenda.


What do you mean? Did fake news put out an article that says scientists are fighting with politicians again? Scientists and medical experts are supposed to put out advice and politicians are supposed to run the country based off expert advice coming in from all directions which include from experts in economics.


The Pfizer vaccine has the furthermost progress of the Operation Warp Speed development candidates. It is reporting some early results from its Phase 3 trial involving 44,000 volunteers.  The goal of the trail is to make efficacy determinations upon reaching a total of 164 virus infections among the 44,000 subjects.   To date, only 32 infections have occurred, and an undisclosed number of those are mildly symptomatic.  Also  not disclosed is how many of the infections were in the placebo group vs. the dosed group. 

Making any efficacy determinations before reaching the goal of 164 infections is debatable.   Also, the small number of infections  indicates how rare it is to become infected.   


I wonder how many volunteers come from the age group that are most likely to die from? I don't expect a lot of older people volunteering knowing the vaccines may not work or may not protect a high percentage of people.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on September 23, 2020, 01:06:52 PM
Holy Infection Insertion, Batman! From curfew to calling in the army?!?!?


 :ROFL:


But I thought they were so *unselfish* and disciplined with their lockdown programs over there!!!

http://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/22/what-europe-is-doing-to-tackle-its-coronavirus-surge-.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/22/what-europe-is-doing-to-tackle-its-coronavirus-surge-.html)

http://apnews.com/0e5766bdb37e735169281fa5a4ff1b3f (http://apnews.com/0e5766bdb37e735169281fa5a4ff1b3f)
[/size]
LMAO! This virus is certainly humbling, isn't it? It's like golf in the way that it gives folks pause and refrain from chest beating too much!!!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 23, 2020, 02:07:42 PM
What do you mean?

Have you been watching the hearings? What news do you watch or read?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 23, 2020, 02:14:31 PM
Holy Infection Insertion, Batman! From curfew to calling in the army?!?!?

 :ROFL:

But I thought they were so *unselfish* and disciplined with their lockdown programs over there!!!

LMAO! This virus is certainly humbling, isn't it? It's like golf in the way that it gives folks pause and refrain from chest beating too much!!![/size][/font]

Certainly, nothing to belittle or laugh at.  Yes, some countries are having to move to more strict, prudent measures after the holidays and schools back in session, along with getting things back on track before autumn/winter flu season.  IOW they are taking the alarming rise in cases and deaths very seriously now so that full lockdowns are not necessary.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 23, 2020, 02:34:16 PM
Have you been watching the hearings? What news do you watch or read?

You're the one claiming Fauci is standing up to GOP pressure. What are they pressuring him about?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on September 23, 2020, 05:06:54 PM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/MC-Covid_Vaccine_Politics_web20200922113029.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 23, 2020, 05:48:36 PM

Not enough data to support 'rare'.

Simple math will suffice.  In my state of Florida (not long ago an epicenter of the pandemic) the daily odds today of an individual testing positive are  about 1-in-9,000.   I call that "rare." 

Over two months, the odds of testing positive would thus be 1-in-150. With 44,000 trail subjects, that suggests 300 total infections.  If the vaccine is 75% effective, that reduces the expected result to 75 infections, less than half of the trial's goal. 

Pfizer likely conducted the trails in areas with higher infection rates than Florida.  Also, some of the 44,000 subjects were placebos.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 23, 2020, 05:54:37 PM
I wonder how many volunteers come from the age group that are most likely to die from? I don't expect a lot of older people volunteering knowing the vaccines may not work or may not protect a high percentage of people.

I did not read the details, yet recall one speaker saying the test focused on those from 18 to 55 yo. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 23, 2020, 05:58:26 PM
You're the one claiming Fauci is standing up to GOP pressure. What are they pressuring him about?

Not much news.  Some entertainment however, such as Sen. Rand Paul saying Sweden's herd immunity strategy is working and Fauci replying, "If you believe that Senator, you are alone." 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 23, 2020, 06:23:26 PM

Rand Paul doesn't represent the GOP. He's really an independent that ran as a Republican to get the job. If there's one guy in the Senate that would believe the coronavirus was overblown for conspiracy theory reasons, it's Rand. I'm not surprised he was hard on Fauci.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on September 23, 2020, 09:57:05 PM
Not much news.  Some entertainment however, such as Sen. Rand Paul saying Sweden's herd immunity strategy is working and Fauci replying, "If you believe that Senator, you are alone."

Fauci has a point

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/stockholm-coronavirus-restrictions-sweden-cases-rising-b551674.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on September 24, 2020, 12:16:08 PM
Well the Coronavirus numbers here in the UK are now up around the numbers in the first wave. We're now running into winter and the gov's 'eat out to help out' scheme and letting Brits go abroad on holiday is looking a big mistake in terms of raising virus figures once more. In Scotland, Glasgow uni has had to go into quarantine measures after 126 students tested positive after fresher week activities. They go back a week sooner than English uni students so we are likely to see outbreaks at English Universities in the week to come.

This winter is already looking like it could be a bad one and all we have to show for it is having to see the horror of fat girls in g-strings on beaches at home and abroad >:(
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on September 24, 2020, 12:31:30 PM
Well the Coronavirus numbers here in the UK are now up around the numbers in the first wave. We're now running into winter and the gov's 'eat out to help out' scheme and letting Brits go abroad on holiday is looking a big mistake in terms of raising virus figures once more. In Scotland, Glasgow uni has had to go into quarantine measures after 126 students tested positive after fresher week activities. They go back a week sooner than English uni students so we are likely to see outbreaks at English Universities in the week to come.

This winter is already looking like it could be a bad one and all we have to show for it is having to see the horror of fat girls in g-strings on beaches at home and abroad >:(

"The horror of fat girls in g-strings..."
 :ROFL:

Or maybe the worldwide media is still manipulating this story for nefarious purpose, because they can.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 25, 2020, 04:59:07 PM
Florida may see the number of daily positive cases start to uptick.   I say this based on my son having to attend three "gatherings," e. g.,  a mandatory continuing education seminar .  He says the percentage of people  wearing masks has dropped considerably from just a few weeks ago.   Most stores still require masks to enter.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on September 25, 2020, 07:03:19 PM
Florida may see the number of daily positive cases start to uptick.   I say this based on my son having to attend three "gatherings," e. g.,  a mandatory continuing education seminar .  He says the percentage of people  wearing masks has dropped considerably from just a few weeks ago.   Most stores still require masks to enter.

The increase and now massive testing it would seem is going to drive up the numbers. However, in consideration of all of the preventative measures taken, do you get the feeling someone is pulling the strings on the numbers as far as "upticks" go? They said there would be one in July, there was then they said there would be one when schools opened in the fall, there is. Now they're saying there will be another massive one with the winter flu season. They have a firm grip on the fearmongering and refuse to let it go
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on September 25, 2020, 07:55:08 PM
The increase and now massive testing it would seem is going to drive up the numbers. However, in consideration of all of the preventative measures taken, do you get the feeling someone is pulling the strings on the numbers as far as "upticks" go? They said there would be one in July, there was then they said there would be one when schools opened in the fall, there is. Now they're saying there will be another massive one with the winter flu season. They have a firm grip on the fearmongering and refuse to let it go.

Fear porn is what it is.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on September 27, 2020, 07:08:09 AM
Florida citizens are in mitigation fatigue.   

That's why I favor a shorter strict lockdown that's effective to get numbers down to good test n trace levels rather than dragging things on month after month..

Here the after summer wave has hit, but still manageable with low positivity rates, much like the US NE states.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on September 27, 2020, 08:03:39 AM
That's why I favor a shorter strict lockdown that's effective to get numbers down to good test n trace levels rather than dragging things on month after month..

Here the after summer wave has hit, but still manageable with low positivity rates, much like the US NE states.

The lock downs, masks, gloves, sanitizing measures and social distancing has proved ineffective. The spikes continue. Why does this factoid go unmentioned?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on September 27, 2020, 08:12:11 AM
FP,

I wouldn't say ineffective at all, just imperfect as there are still those that do not abide by the rules.

Here it has been quite effective, but still not perfect.  At least it's not much of a political deal but instead simple complacency.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on September 27, 2020, 08:29:51 AM
FP,

I wouldn't say ineffective at all, just imperfect as there are still those that do not abide by the rules.

Here it has been quite effective, but still not perfect.  At least it's not much of a political deal but instead simple complacency.

BC,

Where the US splashes, the ripples are felt around the world.  I believe it's not a political deal in Italy, I really do. It's a pacifier and submission to something they don't understand. Following orders if you will.

They certainly have you believing it is effective. I'll give you that. You might ask what would happen if we didn't take these measures? We'll never know, will we? They tell us covid is in the finest of mist and can remain airborne for hours. This tosses out the distancing, doesn't it? n-95 and surgical masks are at best 12% effective. That means it's 88% ineffective. Most cloth facial coverings are 100% ineffective. Never has the CDC called for gas mask and hazmat suits which then would only be about 80% effective. We're being sold a bill of goods BC. As bright as you are, I don't know how you can miss that.

Spikes and increasing infections would have happened without the submission to the junk science side of it, dont'cha think?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 27, 2020, 09:25:21 AM
The lock downs, masks, gloves, sanitizing measures and social distancing has proved ineffective. The spikes continue. Why does this factoid go unmentioned?


They are each effective to some degree. The vaccines that will come out won't be 100% effective either but add all layers of protection and the spread rate significantly decreases. The spikes we are seeing is only after governors ease restrictions and we try to go back to living life normally. By the end of the year, states like NY and NJ will have 1 out of every 500 citizens dead from COVID. There are far few deaths per day today than there was deaths per day months ago because they took action to prevent the spread and continue to take action although they ease up on some restrictions.

Here's the Rt link BC provided. In March when we didn't take measures to limit the spread, the Rt rate skyrocketed. Only after we used masks, cleaned hands more often, limited our activities, and social distanced did we bring the Rt to manageable levels.

http://rt.live/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on September 27, 2020, 02:16:11 PM


They certainly have you believing it is effective. I'll give you that. You might ask what would happen if we didn't take these measures? We'll never know, will we? They tell us covid is in the finest of mist and can remain airborne for hours. This tosses out the distancing, doesn't it? n-95 and surgical masks are at best 12% effective. That means it's 88% ineffective. Most cloth facial coverings are 100% ineffective. Never has the CDC called for gas mask and hazmat suits which then would only be about 80% effective. We're being sold a bill of goods BC. As bright as you are, I don't know how you can miss that.

Spikes and increasing infections would have happened without the submission to the junk science side of it, dont'cha think?
Well old mobers strikes again, you are in agreement with him over masks. 

My own view remains that the virus will continue to wreck havoc and there isn't much that can be done.  I don't think trump can do much to stop it and don't necessarily fault his version of a response.  Other countries have clearly done better but they may have a different situation and populace to deal with.  Here in the states we have a lot of older and obese people that can't live through the virus...in africa they don't have that problem.  My wife/son are getting tested tomorrow for covid since they are travelling to colombia later in the week.  Colombia has been hit hard, this despite a strict lockdown.   

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on September 28, 2020, 10:02:00 AM
Quote
Perhaps the worst side effect of COVID-19 is the total abandonment of logic and reason by many, many people in our nation. And simultaneously, those same people behave with an insane level of condescension while doling out their lessons.
http://townhall.com/columnists/adamguillette/2020/09/28/i-received-the-vaccineand-a-lecture-n2577058
The same kind of people [including Joe Biden] that blame Donald Trump for the 200K who have succumbed to the virus. 
 Remember that millions of Americans were to die when the pandemic report surfaced?
 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on September 28, 2020, 04:17:14 PM
http://townhall.com/columnists/adamguillette/2020/09/28/i-received-the-vaccineand-a-lecture-n2577058 (http://townhall.com/columnists/adamguillette/2020/09/28/i-received-the-vaccineand-a-lecture-n2577058)
The same kind of people [including Joe Biden] that blame Donald Trump for the 200K who have succumbed to the virus. 
 Remember that millions of Americans were to die when the pandemic report surfaced?
 


Correction. Biden declared 2 million US dead due to COVID-19.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 28, 2020, 04:53:40 PM

Correction. Biden declared 2 million US dead due to COVID-19.


I didn't watch that video. I did watch a video recently where he said 200 Americans died of COVID and another video where he said 200 million Americans died of COVID. He got the number 2 right.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on September 28, 2020, 09:45:15 PM
What's up with you guys in California voting in Democratic politicians that refuse to wear masks in public places? Somebody needs to tell them there's a pandemic going on. I wonder if Senator Feinstein will pull a Pelosi and say she was set up by the airport.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8783661/PICTURED-Democratic-Sen-Dianne-Feinstein-seen-walking-Washing-DC-airport-without-mask.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 03, 2020, 03:23:50 AM
Ok guys, had a major brainwave last night and think I've got this pandemic think all worked out. My thought is and remember you've heard it here first ;) is that eventually nearly all of us will build up immunity to this virus, in fact I think it is probably already happening. Now we know that a person needs to breath in a fair amount of particles off it to catch it. My thought is that odds are people in general are breathing in small doses of the virus, enough for the body to create an response but not enough to catch it fully. Over time that response builds up and we become immune to it, so almost vaccine like in its own way. We already know the virus can attach to pollution particles and so can disperse widely. We also know that bats have natural immunity to the virus. What are the odds that similar occured there.

So far in the UK there has been a lot less deaths during this second wave. Now I know it takes time for cases to follow through and there are drugs around now but I'm reckoning in general this could likely be down to the population already building up natural immunity to the virus. I reckon that repeated exposure to small particles will end up building up a natural long term immunity to the virus no vaccine needed.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 07, 2020, 02:29:16 PM
Well the virus contracting figures seem to be massively on the up worldwide with many countries on their second wave. Here in the UK the virus figures have gone way up and we're going into a big second wave. Death figures have so far risen slowly but are on the up so we're have to see if they really jump in a couple of weeks like before. Then we'll know whether it's a case of hold on tight and hope for the best.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 09, 2020, 07:21:43 AM
The Trump Treatment for Covid Is Coming Soon - WSJ

                                         Op-ed by Scott Gottlieb - former FDA Commissioner

http://www.wsj.com/articles/the-trump-treatment-for-covid-is-coming-soon-11602181229


We now know that a week ago, Trump was developing a severe response to his COVID infection and had to be hospitalized.  His medical team ordered a cocktail of various drugs, one drug still in experimental trials and not yet granted Emergency Use Authorization (EUA) by the FDA for the treatment of COVID.   Another was administered under a recent EUA. 

The results are indeed remarkable:  Trump's doctors expect him to be able to participate in events tomorrow, a mere eight days days after hospitalization.

These two new drugs were advanced as part of Trump's Warp Speed program, the program that could have one hundred million doses of vaccine ready to go in a couple of months.   The two new drugs used to treat Trump were not vaccines, but therapeutics:

            Gilead's Remdesivir - An inhibitor recently granted an EUA.   .  Trials show in comparison to placebos that Remdesivir reduced the death rate in 70% of infected patients so ill as to need supplemental oxygen.  And it reduced hospital stays by five days.

            Regeneron's REGN-COV2 -  an antibody cocktail administered IV providing the same antibodies expected to be produced in response to a vaccine, except the Regeneron antibodies are produced in vitro.

The Democrats' political campaign of fear mongering has already cast doubt on the vaccines to be available soon.   Pence told Kamala during the debate that her campaign of fear mongering discourages use of vaccines and is "unconscionable."   And I agree, given so many ill-informed Americans already are averse to any vaccination. 

Will the Democrat's same politics of fear  be applied to the two therapeutics that prompted a remarkable recovery by Trump?    Is this not indeed "unconscionable?"
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 09, 2020, 07:31:01 AM
I don't perceive realistic expectations of a properly tested vaccine NOT being available soon in any numbers as 'fear mongering' .

It is being honest.


I cannot comment on 'Trampu's' health / 'recovery', as we don't know all the circumstances,other than a lot of ignorant politicians and mover /shakers getting too close and not respecting good practice.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 09, 2020, 08:41:21 AM
I don't perceive realistic expectations of a properly tested vaccine NOT being available soon in any numbers as 'fear mongering' .

It is being honest.


"NOT being available soon in any numbers" is unspecific, typical of your posts.  Barring some highly unlikely event, it will happen 1Q2021.  That's specific, and take it to the bank. 

As your basis for deriving your "honest" fear:   Are you one of the corporate leaders of the pharmaceutical industry?  Do you sit on regulatory bodies?   Have you any experience in investing in new drugs?  Do you understand the mission and backing of Operation Warp Speed?  Do you understand the theory of vaccines?  Do you have a shred of optimism? 

The answers, No, No, No, No, No, and No. 

You are allowing your brain to be victimized by the politics of fear and are merely repeating it.  Liberal sheeple.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 09, 2020, 08:51:22 AM
Gator,

Warp speed is about supporting pre-production and taking on part of the risk before trials are over.  Most nations are doing it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 09, 2020, 09:17:20 AM
Gator,

Warp speed is about supporting pre-production and taking on part of the risk before trials are over.

Yes as reflected in my posts months ago. 

The key part is the phramaceutical companies are doing the work under the auspices of the FDA.  Because of govt funding, the companies are investing more money when normally they would proceed over years to reduce investment risks.   

Please tell Kamala that Trump and his West Wing are not doing the R&D, nor approving it.   


 
Quote
Most nations are doing it.

Who does more of it?  Who does it better? 

I will not ask who does it faster because we know the answer is Russia. 

When consulting for a client in a jam, I would say to  them:  "Fast, low cost,  high quality.   Pick any two."


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on October 09, 2020, 09:28:36 AM
Florida teen reportedly arrested after not wearing mask while having panic attack
http://nypost.com/2020/10/07/teen-arrested-after-not-wearing-mask-while-having-panic-attack-report/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 09, 2020, 10:28:49 AM
Yes as reflected in my posts months ago. 

The key part is the phramaceutical companies are doing the work under the auspices of the FDA.  Because of govt funding, the companies are investing more money when normally they would proceed over years to reduce investment risks.

IIRC the same companies in 'warp' are also being supported by others. 

Quote
Please tell Kamala that Trump and his West Wing are not doing the R&D, nor approving it.   

Approving and lowering the bar for approvals are two different things.


Quote
Who does more of it?  Who does it better?


You are probably faster with a calculator than I.  As for more, I would say 'substantial', as for better, pharma company A, supported by multiple countries won't sell different qualities.

Quote
I will not ask who does it faster because we know the answer is Russia.
 

Indeed, phase III cut out completely, whereas Trump wants to shorten it.

Quote
When consulting for a client in a jam, I would say to  them:  "Fast, low cost,  high quality.   Pick any two."

Looks like for some, it will be lower price for same quality.  On a per dose basis, Europeans will be paying less at least last time I looked.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 09, 2020, 02:49:38 PM
IIRC the same companies in 'warp' are also being supported by others. 

Yes, in exchange for advanced purchases to be delivered when regulatory approvals for use are granted.   

Quote
Approving and lowering the bar for approvals are two different things.

As part of Warp Speed, the Phase 3 trials are shortened, but in no instance less than two months.   The pharma companies are still concerned with liability and nothing will compel them to deliver if their records and data show it is not safe.   

Quote
You are probably faster with a calculator than I.  As for more, I would say 'substantial', as for better, pharma company A, supported by multiple countries won't sell different qualities.

Of course not.  The relative contributions by different nations can be estimated by quantity of their preordered doses.  And not all nations are participating in all vaccines.  I believe the US is participating in seven, and many more vaccines than that are being researched around the globe. 
 

Quote
Indeed, phase III cut out completely, whereas Trump wants to shorten it.

Not the full truth.  I understand a minimum of two months has been established, and it will be longer because
not all available doses will be administered immediately.  The roll out of all doses could take months, but loess than a year for the entire nation.   The roll-out varies by vaccine.  A couple require -40C storage.   

Quote
Looks like for some, it will be lower price for same quality.  On a per dose basis, Europeans will be paying less at least last time I looked.

You always have for essentially all pharmaceuticals, something that Presidents and Congress have complained about for a long time, yet never  changed the policy.  Some reduced pricing is needed for less wealthy nations. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 09, 2020, 05:33:27 PM
Yes, in exchange for advanced purchases to be delivered when regulatory approvals for use are granted.

A lot more than that.  See below.   

Quote
As part of Warp Speed, the Phase 3 trials are shortened, but in no instance less than two months.   The pharma companies are still concerned with liability and nothing will compel them to deliver if their records and data show it is not safe.
   

Indeed. As far as Europe goes they have an advantage with liability aspects.  It's called universal healthcare. Yep again a win as far as liability is concerned lower costs AND lower prices.  Do you now see a relationship, buying power, and advantages that universal healthcare brings to the bargaining table and how lower pharma costs also support it?

Quote
Of course not.  The relative contributions by different nations can be estimated by quantity of their preordered doses.  And not all nations are participating in all vaccines.  I believe the US is participating in seven, and many more vaccines than that are being researched around the globe. 

Although this topic is worth its own thread, here's a partial picture:

http://www.euractiv.com/section/coronavirus/news/eu-pays-e336-mln-to-secure-astrazenecas-potential-covid-19-vaccine/

Quote
The overall price they will pay to acquire the doses has not been revealed, but under an earlier deal struck in June with AstraZeneca by Germany, France, Italy and the Netherlands, all members of the EU, AstraZeneca agreed to sell 300 million doses for €750 million.

Quote
AstraZeneca has already agreed the supply of 300 million shots of the same vaccine to the United States for $1.2 billion

Sharpen your pencil...

But wait! There's more!... How about:

http://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/22/us/politics/pfizer-coronavirus-vaccine.html

Quote
A European-led fund-raising effort in May brought $8 billion in pledges from the world’s governments, philanthropists and leaders for coronavirus vaccine research, even with the United States sitting out the conference.

Quote
Germany recently took a 23 percent stake in a German firm, CureVac, that President Trump once tried to lure to American shores in hopes that its vaccine, if successful, would be distributed in the United States first.
And there is much much more.

Some interesting figures to fiddle with. Some quick head math seems to show the EU, Germany, and others are getting a pretty good deal or?

Quote
Not the full truth.  I understand a minimum of two months has been established, and it will be longer because
not all available doses will be administered immediately.  The roll out of all doses could take months, but loess than a year for the entire nation.   The roll-out varies by vaccine.  A couple require -40C storage. 


I'm not too worried as many of the manufacturers have agreed with each other in a manner to keep political push out of the game.  The concern with Trump is his undue influence efforts over CDC in the issuance process and approval of EUA's

Quote
You always have for essentially all pharmaceuticals, something that Presidents and Congress have complained about for a long time, yet never  changed the policy.  Some reduced pricing is needed for less wealthy nations.

Yes, the EU has addressed these aspects via COVAX.  Read the following article closely, keep in mind the US is (again) not participating in a global effort, and consider the purchasing power and leverage vs Trump's 'wheeling and dealing'.  Which do you think will be more effective down the road?  Consider also that most likely that the vaccine is not a one or two-shot deal.  We're talking yearly purchases.  Maybe Biden will join up as well, IMO a much better deal than Trump and the US 'going it alone'.

http://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_20_1540

Quote
The European Commission is committed to ensuring that everyone who needs a vaccine gets it, anywhere in the world and not only at home. No one will be safe until everyone is safe. This is why it immediately responded to the WHO's call for action and has raised almost €16 billion since 4 May 2020 under the Coronavirus Global Response, the global action for universal access to tests, treatments and vaccines against coronavirus and for the global recovery.

Although you and others seem convinced that due to Trump's magic the US is contributing and doing more than anyone else, that is very likely not the case.  But lets put politics aside for a moment and look closely at the best and most effective overall approach to vaccine development, distribution whilst maintaining low prices and maximizing availability.  This is a huge missed opportunity for the US to lead the charge against this virus, and benefit.  Instead, we have relegated ourselves to the bleachers on the world stage, viewed upon in dismay by the rest of the world for our self-serving posture.  O'Brien was right. "This will be the biggest national security threat you face in your presidency,".  I would delete 'you face in your presidency' and insert 'we as a Nation face'.

It is truly, and very SAD.

Politics somewhat aside, would you agree or disagree with my assessment?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 12, 2020, 07:56:15 AM

Some interesting figures to fiddle with. Some quick head math seems to show the EU, Germany, and others are getting a pretty good deal or?


Three explanations: 

1.  Lower prices has always been the case for EU for medicines.  Canada also has lower prices. That's what happens in a  laissez-faire vs. big government, socialistic societies.  In one way it is good because the high US pricing has indirectly been subsidizing lower prices to less wealthy countries for a long, long time. It is surprising that EU chose not to contribute but to suck on the same teat of subsidies. 

2.  AstraZeneca is actually a consortium of Europe pharmaceutical companies and Europe university, so Europe needs to get an edge.   The other leading vaccines are being developed mostly by US companies.  I do know that the US has already paid for much of the supply.

3. AZ vaccine is inferior to  developing US vaccines according to Nancy Pelosi (ha ha) - read more about that and you will begin to understand how wacky our Speaker can be.
 

Quote
The concern with Trump is his undue influence efforts over CDC in the issuance process and approval of EUA's

CDC has nothing to do with EUA's.  Regarding Trump, as is his nature he did not hide in the basement but pushed for action.   Regardless, the FDA will make the safety decisions as the process was designed decades ago. 


Quote
...the EU has addressed these aspects via COVAX..... keep in mind the US is (again) not participating in a global effort, and consider the purchasing power and leverage vs Trump's 'wheeling and dealing'.  Which do you think will be more effective down the road? 

Isn't the COVAX initiative more about "equitable access to affordable vaccines" than getting a better price for Europe.  EU has been buying subsidized medicine for decades, and they should use those savings to step up and help Africa, et al.  The US will be helping too. 


Quote
But lets put politics aside for a moment and look closely at the best and most effective overall approach to vaccine development....

Splendid, lets do that.  However, after saying you are putting politics aside, in your next breath you criticized Trump's policies.  You are hopeless.

Quote
This is a huge missed opportunity for the US to lead the charge against this virus, and benefit.  Instead, we have relegated ourselves to the bleachers on the world stage, viewed upon in dismay by the rest of the world for our self-serving posture.

It is good that Europe is working together.  I say that because you need to just to keep up.   



Quote
It is truly, and very SAD.

Yes it is to be mired in fearmongering, spying on the President, lying to the public,  obstructing the President, fomenting hatred....all because of the left's great compulsion to gain power, regardless of the costs. 
 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 12, 2020, 08:03:01 AM

Politics somewhat aside, would you agree or disagree with my assessment?

So you want to try again.  OK, let's try. 

COVAX seems like it could evolve into government control of the pharmaceutical companies.  Making them regulated utilities with control over not only prices but production, distribution, investments, maintenance, etc.     The government should regulate safety and safety only.  If the companies gouge the public regarding prices   

This is based on a one-minute read of COVAX.  Devil could be in the details.

___________________________


Regarding the US approach, Trump very early recognized vaccines are the only answer to the pandemic.  He promptly started a private-public collaboration to develop the vaccines at "warp speed".  And many months later, you find fault with his initiative?!

Biden and your party found fault with Trump's travel restrictions in January.  Who was correct?

You found fault with Trump not disclosing to the public in the early months haw dangerous the virus could be.   If Trump had been completely candid, he would created a panic.  I question how many essential workers would have reported to work.  Imagine life in NYC or anywhere with limited availability of  food stores, pharmacies, etc. 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 12, 2020, 08:16:06 AM
The Scientists and Doctors Change their Minds....Again

The World Health Organization has warned leaders against relying on COVID-19 lockdowns to tackle outbreaks.

“We in the World Health Organization do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus,” Nabarro said.

“The only time we believe a lockdown is justified is to buy you time to reorganize, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted, but by and large, we’d rather not do it.”

Nabarro said tight restrictions cause significant harm, particularly on the global economy.

“Lockdowns just have one consequence that you must never, ever belittle, and that is making poor people an awful lot poorer,” he said.

http://nypost.com/2020/10/11/who-warns-against-covid-19-lockdowns-due-to-economic-damage/



Before reading too much in this, I am sure if you listened to the one hour video, the WHO would be stressing the need for testing, contact tracing and quarantine.    The US is well behind Asia in such vcapabilities.  For example, an outbreak occurred just recently in a Chinese city of several million citizens.   China intends to test 90% of the city's population within one week!!!!! 

The US does not have the capacity for such testing.  Even if we did, compliance  of the population with testing would be impossible.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 12, 2020, 08:31:38 AM
(http://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/TChF-XbSlcKyjP-rYCTEiNc49Em2uSZ1fTKaBecPKDu2pFXQsRC10fev9rlSU8BhLICbeHk9KxIv8EG5XwNeJstFXSvu-eiPQ09d87OsbaJMbQvttwuQK3pEIOuSwPdXMDBA33cyMMEBPVIIyabvaYcdSQEYyINXMh7eF5flzQ7Datuh8aB1=s0-d-e1-ft#http://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/10/12/multimedia/12-MORNING-SWEDENCASES/12-MORNING-SWEDENCASES-articleLarge.png)

NY Times


This says to me we ill not shake the disease until we have a vaccine. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: mhr7 on October 12, 2020, 11:35:58 AM
The Democrats' political campaign of fear mongering has already cast doubt on the vaccines to be available soon.   Pence told Kamala during the debate that her campaign of fear mongering discourages use of vaccines and is "unconscionable."   And I agree, given so many ill-informed Americans already are averse to any vaccination. 

Will the Democrat's same politics of fear  be applied to the two therapeutics that prompted a remarkable recovery by Trump?    Is this not indeed "unconscionable?"

Kamala Harris said she would trust a vaccine if it was back by the scientific community, no fear mongering going on there. The Democrats want scientific fact, not Trump's opinion.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: mhr7 on October 12, 2020, 12:09:37 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy7pbJ2jvMo
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 12, 2020, 03:13:43 PM
Kamala Harris said she would trust a vaccine if it was back by the scientific community, no fear mongering going on there. The Democrats want scientific fact, not Trump's opinion.

Trump opined about the benefits of Regeneron's antibody cocktail, a drug not yet granted EUA by the FDA. 

If infected Democrats will not take it, that means more infected Republicans will survive because the number of doses is very limited, certainly not enough for every patient requiring supplemental oxygen. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 12, 2020, 04:03:56 PM
COVAX

BC,

I have had the time to read more about COVAX.  I feel more confident that this is not now a big government program to regulate the production and distribution of COVID vaccines being developed by the pharmaceutical industry.

The COVAX charter seems noble, endeavoring to deliver vaccines to those in greatest need.  A number of underdeveloped nations are afflicted by COVID and will need help if we are to stop the pandemic.  . 

Normally I would think this effort would be the function of the WHO.  However, WHO's performance in early 2020 casts doubt on their ability.  Trump took the reins very early for vaccine development.  The US has made remarkable progress in coordination with pharmaceutical companies, an effort resembling the objectives of COVAX. 

I agree the US should be participating in the COVAX coordination effort, yet not at the expense of  delaying the already existing US Warp Speed program.   COVAX is targeting the end of 2021 for delivery of 2 billion doses.  In contrast Warp Speed is targeting mass delivery starting the end of 2020, one year sooner.  I am certain there will be ample capacity from US pharmaceutical companies to help meet the COVAX goal.  Also, Trump has pledged intentions to help other nations with vaccines, as he did earlier in 2020 with providing respirators. 

As you say, the US may be sitting in the bleachers for the COVAX effort, yet we are winning on the field in an immense effort well underway and nearing its goals.   China and Russia along with the US are not listed as having expressed interest in COVAX.  Yet, two of the vaccines in the COVAX's portfolio of nine vaccines are from state-controlled China.    Also odd,  one of the leading US vaccine developers (J&J who is in Phase 3 trials) is not involved with COVAX.   I expect pharmaceutical  companies are attending COVAX meetings and sharing information about US developments.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 12, 2020, 09:57:14 PM
Hi Gator,

China joined a few days ago.

China joins COVAX coronavirus vaccine alliance
http://apnews.com/article/virus-outbreak-xi-jinping-taiwan-china-archive-aae1708207d3510a434d35aec994d4d1

As for timelines, it is going to take one hell of an effort to get enough vaccines approved, produced and distributed.

We can't fool ourselves that it is going to be easy, quick or fast.  We'll have our own 'experience' with this.  It will be interesting to see when I can mark 'get vaccinated' on my calendar and compare with yours to see if there is any great difference and judge the true effect of 'warp speed'.

I expect general availability in most of the wealthy nations to be mid to end 2021, and that includes the US.

Regarding WHO, they were just as dependent on China to provide information as everyone else.  Ok, I get the gist of your argument, even agree that China was trying to contain and cover very early on and doubt we'll see a repeat from them in the future as hard lessons have been learned.  Then again, our own response has been miserable.  Do you believe knowing more earlier on would have changed what Trump & Co knew on 28 January?  Would our response have been any different had WHO known more?  WHO did indicate human to human transmission on 22 January.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/04/world-health-organization-blame-pandemic-coronavirus/609820/

Quote
Human-to-human transmission is occurring and a preliminary R0 estimate of 1.4-2.5 was presented. Amplification has occurred in one health care facility. Of confirmed cases, 25% are reported to be severe. The source is still unknown (most likely an animal reservoir) and the extent of human-to-human transmission is still not clear.
http://www.who.int/news-room/detail/23-01-2020-statement-on-the-meeting-of-the-international-health-regulations-(2005)-emergency-committee-regarding-the-outbreak-of-novel-coronavirus-(2019-ncov)

I'll get back to your prior posts shortly, but 'till then just think 28 January until today, almost 9 months later, what is the message Trump is sending about the virus?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWnhQR_dRxY

Who cares about Amazon Prime Day,  it should be 'Go get COVID day and it won't cost a dime!!!  It'll make you younger, stronger and immune!

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 12, 2020, 10:51:15 PM
Trump opined about the benefits of Regeneron's antibody cocktail, a drug not yet granted EUA by the FDA. 

If infected Democrats will not take it, that means more infected Republicans will survive because the number of doses is very limited, certainly not enough for every patient requiring supplemental oxygen.

A trial of 1 does not a cure make.  Fact, we don't know if it helped.

Trump touting it is totally irresponsible.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 12, 2020, 11:08:10 PM
(http://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/TChF-XbSlcKyjP-rYCTEiNc49Em2uSZ1fTKaBecPKDu2pFXQsRC10fev9rlSU8BhLICbeHk9KxIv8EG5XwNeJstFXSvu-eiPQ09d87OsbaJMbQvttwuQK3pEIOuSwPdXMDBA33cyMMEBPVIIyabvaYcdSQEYyINXMh7eF5flzQ7Datuh8aB1=s0-d-e1-ft#http://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/10/12/multimedia/12-MORNING-SWEDENCASES/12-MORNING-SWEDENCASES-articleLarge.png)

NY Times


This says to me we ill not shake the disease until we have a vaccine.

Gator,

The grey area is what we (in the US) should really be worrying about.  Yes, a vaccine is needed, however, we're looking at least another 6 months for general distribution to even begin.

(http://i.postimg.cc/9QRpNvz5/Screen-Shot-2020-10-13-at-08-00-13.png)

J&J IIRC the largest trial to date was paused to investigate an 'event'.  Hopefully, again, an unrelated anomaly, but it is good these companies are not skipping steps and their own guidelines.

http://www.statnews.com/2020/10/12/johnson-johnson-covid-19-vaccine-study-paused-due-to-unexplained-illness-in-participant/

It should be a reminder though that 'it ain't over till it's over'.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 12, 2020, 11:23:02 PM

“We in the World Health Organization do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus,” Nabarro said.

“The only time we believe a lockdown is justified is to buy you time to reorganize, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted, but by and large, we’d rather not do it.”


Lockdowns in the EU were necessary and very helpful for the reasons stated.  With a bit of luck newly implemented measures will bring the EU back on track.  I am confident in the measures being taken here in Italy that does not include a nationwide lockdown.  We'll see.  the experience does show though that a second wave can be worse than a first (albeit many more tests are being taken today than during the first wave), but all indications are it is upon us and we again need to be very careful.  I have seen much greater use of masks etc but still, the younger crowd (school kids etc) is a compliance problem.  Fines between EUR 400 and 1000 are being handed out to those that are not complying, but this is not the primary motive folks are wearing masks.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 12, 2020, 11:53:26 PM

Regarding the US approach, Trump very early recognized vaccines are the only answer to the pandemic.  He promptly started a private-public collaboration to develop the vaccines at "warp speed".  And many months later, you find fault with his initiative?!

Trump's approach was seeking a one-stop solution, underestimating the complexity of what needed to happen between 'now' and 'then' to save lives.  It continues today.

Quote
Biden and your party found fault with Trump's travel restrictions in January.  Who was correct?
. Halting travel was prudent, however, the damage had already been done.  A de-facto stop was already occurring with airlines no longer flying.

Quote
You found fault with Trump not disclosing to the public in the early months haw dangerous the virus could be.   If Trump had been completely candid, he would created a panic.  I question how many essential workers would have reported to work.  Imagine life in NYC or anywhere with limited availability of  food stores, pharmacies, etc.

Did Europe not face the same challenge?  I remember here there was a short run on stores for essentials.  Governments simply announced that deliveries would be guaranteed and things quickly normalized.  Panic is the result of distrust.  Simple as that.  There is no evidence that I have seen supporting Trump's position, and that we could not have handled the truth like EVERYONE else in the world did.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 13, 2020, 12:21:50 AM
Three explanations: 

1.  Lower prices has always been the case for EU for medicines.  Canada also has lower prices. That's what happens in a  laissez-faire vs. big government, socialistic societies.  In one way it is good because the high US pricing has indirectly been subsidizing lower prices to less wealthy countries for a long, long time. It is surprising that EU chose not to contribute but to suck on the same teat of subsidies. 

Essentially, all universal healthcare countries did is cut kneecap or cut out the (very expensive) middleman, leveraging their own buying power instead of making others very rich to the tune of tens of billions.  Surely you recognize that the US experienced a wave of overprescribing opioids, much to the benefit of doctors, middlemen, and manufacturers.  The US was the only country that experienced such a large wave of legal drugs prescribed and distributed illegally. What was the cost to taxpayers and society in general?

Quote
“The middlemen became very, very rich. Whoever those middlemen were – and a lot of people never even figured it out – they’re rich. They won’t be so rich anymore,”.

DJT

Has anything changed since this statement?

Quote
2.  AstraZeneca is actually a consortium of Europe pharmaceutical companies and Europe university, so Europe needs to get an edge.   The other leading vaccines are being developed mostly by US companies.  I do know that the US has already paid for much of the supply.

3. AZ vaccine is inferior to  developing US vaccines according to Nancy Pelosi (ha ha) - read more about that and you will begin to understand how wacky our Speaker can be.

EU is not limited to AZ.  A number of efforts are being supported and the list keeps increasing.  I agree Pelosi and many Americans have a unique POV.
 

Quote
CDC has nothing to do with EUA's.  Regarding Trump, as is his nature he did not hide in the basement but pushed for action.   Regardless, the FDA will make the safety decisions as the process was designed decades ago. 

You are correct.  Replace CDC with FDA which may make the situation worse.


Quote
Splendid, lets do that.  However, after saying you are putting politics aside, in your next breath you criticized Trump's policies.  You are hopeless.

Whaddayaexpectfromadamnsocialistcommie? :)

Quote
It is good that Europe is working together.  I say that because you need to just to keep up. 


We'll just have to see who is 'keeping up'.

Quote
Yes it is to be mired in fearmongering, spying on the President, lying to the public,  obstructing the President, fomenting hatred....all because of the left's great compulsion to gain power, regardless of the costs.

How would that be related to COVID vaccines and world health efforts?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 13, 2020, 01:52:39 AM
US man gets COVID twice and it was worse second time....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54512034
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on October 13, 2020, 03:34:01 AM
Average life expectancy in the UK is 81 years.

Average age of those in the UK who died with covid is 82 years old.

Those who read and believe sensationalist headlines might claim that covid prolongs your life......
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on October 13, 2020, 03:36:59 AM
US man gets COVID twice and it was worse second time....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54512034

That doesn't necessarily mean anything other than a freak anomaly. I reckon hundreds of millions of people will have come into contact with covid with only a small proportion of them have any symptoms at all. From those who caught covid, almost none of them have caught it again.

It's all about relativity.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 13, 2020, 03:56:54 AM
Rosco,



I have THREE biz partners that most certainly are better qualified that you or I and some folks STILL believe in 'herd immunity'

We have NO idea how long having antibodies lasts and how different people can be more open to  second dose ..

It isn't that uncommon and more and more documented cases are occuring.


The chap was at least 10 years younger than you, but we don't know his medical background.

In Volgograd, I know of three generations who have tested positive and are asymptomatic - aged 57 down to 7 ...  Would you 'argue' this means COVID is 'nothing to worry about' ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 13, 2020, 04:36:38 AM
Average life expectancy in the UK is 81 years.


To be exact, median age, meaning half who died were 82 and over, the other half younger than 82.

worldometers.info lists 42,875 deaths in the UK.  Half, 21,437, were younger.

In addition, many were 'excess deaths' exceeding expected deaths during non-COVID times.

(http://i.postimg.cc/9QRpNvz5/Screen-Shot-2020-10-13-at-08-00-13.png)

So it's a far cry from saying these folks would have died in short order anyway.

Including a number of doctors and other very valuable healthcare workers.

http://www.bmj.com/covid-memorial


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 13, 2020, 05:18:53 AM

As for timelines, it is going to take one hell of an effort to get enough vaccines approved, produced and distributed.


For the world, yes.   For the US, sooner.

Quote
It will be interesting to see when I can mark 'get vaccinated' on my calendar and compare with yours to see if there is any great difference and judge the true effect of 'warp speed'.

Excellent comparison.  Even a few months is important.  However, that still leaves open the question of percentage immunized when many stateside citizens will decline receiving it.   


Quote
Would our response have been any different had WHO known more?  WHO did indicate human to human transmission on 22 January.

Earlier, China knew so much more.  WHO should have been stronger on quarantining China itself.  It was a novel respiratory disease, so transmission via air pathways are the first assumptions. 


Quote
Who cares about Amazon Prime Day,  it should be 'Go get COVID day and it won't cost a dime!!!  It'll make you younger, stronger and immune!

.....still interjecting your fearmongering political spin.  I thought we were trying to set politics aside. 

Why not contrast the mindset of Trump vs. Democrat leaders in those early weeks before COVID ravaged our country?!?! You know why.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 13, 2020, 05:29:31 AM

Trump touting it is totally irresponsible.


He entered the disease with two strikes against him  (age, obesity).   He spit in the face of the disease and recovered quickly, back on the campaign trail in less than two weeks.  Remarkable!!!!

My heart goes out to those Democrats who were disappointed, wanting Trump to suffer if not die. 

God forbid you becoming infected, but if you do, would you deny the Regeneron cocktail because Trump called attention to the progress our pharmaceutical industry is making?   

It is not Trump touting it, it is the Democrat   tactic of criticizing everything he does, mongering fear at every opportunity.  Who suffers - the patient now frightened of drugs that likely could help them.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 13, 2020, 05:34:23 AM

The grey area is what we (in the US) should really be worrying about.  Yes, a vaccine is needed, however, we're looking at least another 6 months for general distribution to even begin.


99% of those people have recovered, many without symptoms. 



Quote
J&J IIRC the largest trial to date was paused to investigate an 'event'.  Hopefully, again, an unrelated anomaly, but it is good these companies are not skipping steps and their own guidelines.

Same as what happened with AstraZeneca trial.  Liability compel pharma companies to proceed with caution. 



Quote
It should be a reminder though that 'it ain't over till it's over'.

My point, too.  Makes me even more upset with China. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on October 13, 2020, 05:40:39 AM
My point, too.  Makes me even more upset with China.
Looking for excuses to be angry with china, because they are beating us in business.  Our response hasn't worked so well, our populace is older and vulnerable. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 13, 2020, 05:43:50 AM
Trump's approach was seeking a one-stop solution, underestimating the complexity of what needed to happen between 'now' and 'then' to save lives.  It continues today.

Blind partisan opinion. 


Quote
Governments simply announced that deliveries would be guaranteed and things quickly normalized.

Were EU governments telling essential workers it was highly transmissible and very deadly, and any type of contact outside the home could kill them?

More politics. 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 13, 2020, 05:47:52 AM
How would that be related to COVID vaccines and world health efforts?


Did you not hear what Kamala said about trusting medicine Trump touted? 

How does the not-so-informed, average American react to such?

Pandemic era golf beckons.  Enjoy your day. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 13, 2020, 06:05:05 AM

Did you not hear what Kamala said about trusting medicine Trump touted? 

How does the not-so-informed, average American react to such?

Pandemic era golf beckons.  Enjoy your day.

Quote
PAGE

No, no, you’re Senator Harris to me. For life to get back to normal Dr. Anthony Fauci and other experts say that most of the people who can be vaccinated need to be vaccinated, but half of Americans now say they wouldn't take a vaccine if it was released now. If the Trump administration approves a vaccine, before after the election, should Americans take it and would you take it?

14:10 HARRIS

If the public health professionals, if Dr. Fauci, if the doctors tell us that we should take it, I'll be the first in line to take it. Absolutely. But if Donald Trump tells us that we should take it, I'm not taking it.

Obviously many Americans are hesitant already due to the confusion they are hearing.  Let the drug companies and FDA do their job unhindered.  That is what the public should be hearing from our president. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 13, 2020, 06:28:55 AM
For the world, yes.   For the US, sooner.

We'll compare.

Quote
Excellent comparison.  Even a few months is important.  However, that still leaves open the question of percentage immunized when many stateside citizens will decline receiving it. 


Although there are naysayers here as well, the percentage of those that will get vaccinated will likely be higher than in the US.


Quote
Earlier, China knew so much more.  WHO should have been stronger on quarantining China itself.  It was a novel respiratory disease, so transmission via air pathways are the first assumptions. 

WHO could and cannot 'quarantine' China any more than they can quarantine the US.  They can only provide nations information they compile based on what they see/hear in other nations.  Yes, China was remiss or negligent by not passing on more information of what was really happening. 

Quote
.....still interjecting your fearmongering political spin.  I thought we were trying to set politics aside. 

Why not contrast the mindset of Trump vs. Democrat leaders in those early weeks before COVID ravaged our country?!?! You know why.

They knew only what we all knew at the time.  Trump likely knew more.  Had he done so, informing Dems and the public better, who knows what might have happened?  We can only guess.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 13, 2020, 06:35:19 AM
Blind partisan opinion. 

Possibly, but based on actions it is very difficult to accept otherwise.

Quote
Were EU governments telling essential workers it was highly transmissible and very deadly, and any type of contact outside the home could kill them?

Yes, they and the public were well informed of what the risks were and it was VERY visible at the time.  This is why the population hunkered down with purpose, and without much dispute.

Quote
More politics.

I'll try to keep it in check and reply with politics only when you do. :)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 13, 2020, 06:43:52 AM
99% of those people have recovered, many without symptoms. 

I don't think the 200 to 400 thousand families of covid death families will agree with you.



Quote
Same as what happened with AstraZeneca trial.  Liability compel pharma companies to proceed with caution. 

Not only liability, but it is also prudent.


Quote
My point, too.  Makes me even more upset with China.

Who knows where the pandemic will come from.  I don't think China has a monopoly on pandemics.

Remember Typhoid Mary?  With people traveling as fast as they do today, crowded airports and planes, hopping continents in a few hours who knows how far that would have spread.

Have fun swingin' Gator!  Maybe win a few bucks while you're at it :)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on October 13, 2020, 06:54:13 AM


WHO could and cannot 'quarantine' China any more than they can quarantine the US.  They can only provide nations information they compile based on what they see/hear in other nations.  Yes, China was remiss or negligent by not passing on more information of what was really happening. 

They knew only what we all knew at the time.  Trump likely knew more.  Had he done so, informing Dems and the public better, who knows what might have happened?  We can only guess.

BC,

You continually ignore the pink elephant in the room in giving the WHO a pass seemingly for a chance to blame Trump. Most all evidence points to China knowing there was a problem as early as December perhaps earlier. The WHO was on the scene. What they chose to believe from the Chinese commies or what they knew to be true then we'll likely never know. What we do know is China was suppressing information on a virus before it became a pandemic. It appears they were to some degree aided by the WHO. If anyone should have instituted lock down and stopped travel it would have been China. If that had happened in December the entire world response could have been different, the spread slower and infections in a much smaller number.

Trump had no oversight of Wuhan province, the Wuhan lab or the CCP. Why you blame Trumps response as "the" problem is a mystery. When one adds the timing of the virus, the originating country along with who may have benefited the most from such a pandemic all signs point to China.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on October 13, 2020, 07:05:33 AM
If Biden is elected you will read different responses from some of the patriot trumpeteers here.  Under trump the US can do no wrong, 'we are leading the way' on a vaccine and solving the problem singlehandly.....if biden is elected those same hypocritical individuals will state how biden is blowing it and how the US response is a disaster!  Meanwhile we lead the world in deaths under trump.   We in the US have a vulnerable frail population, not quite the 'exceptional' group we pretend to be! 

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on October 13, 2020, 07:09:15 AM

We've heard a lot of criticism from the media about Trump's handling of the Coronavirus. Can anybody tell me what Biden will do differently? What is his plan? What is the estimated lives that he will save with his plan? What is the estimate on how much better the economy will be with his coronavirus plan? The only thing I've heard him say is he'll listen to science so he will let scientists run the country until the pandemic is over? Will he let Kamala run the country after the scientists are done?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 13, 2020, 07:20:00 AM
BC,

You continually ignore the pink elephant in the room in giving the WHO a pass seemingly for a chance to blame Trump. Most all evidence points to China knowing there was a problem as early as December perhaps earlier. The WHO was on the scene. What they chose to believe from the Chinese commies or what they knew to be true then we'll likely never know. What we do know is China was suppressing information on a virus before it became a pandemic. It appears they were to some degree aided by the WHO. If anyone should have instituted lock down and stopped travel it would have been China. If that had happened in December the entire world response could have been different, the spread slower and infections in a much smaller number.

Trump had no oversight of Wuhan province, the Wuhan lab or the CCP. Why you blame Trumps response as "the" problem is a mystery. When one adds the timing of the virus, the originating country along with who may have benefited the most from such a pandemic all signs point to China.

FP,

I don't dispute China not FUBAR'ing it. Have stated this several times.

It ain't like a neighbors dog that poops in your driveway where you ask the neighbor to come to clean it up.  Once a virus hits our shores, it's our problem and the buck stops on the president's desk.

As to WHO there is quite a bit of details at the link below.

http://apnews.com/article/3c061794970661042b18d5aeaaed9fae
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 13, 2020, 07:32:43 AM
We've heard a lot of criticism from the media about Trump's handling of the Coronavirus. Can anybody tell me what Biden will do differently? What is his plan? What is the estimated lives that he will save with his plan? What is the estimate on how much better the economy will be with his coronavirus plan? The only thing I've heard him say is he'll listen to science so he will let scientists run the country until the pandemic is over? Will he let Kamala run the country after the scientists are done?

The first thing he'll do is help convince folks to put on a fucking mask in public and that by doing so tens of thousands of lives could be spared.  Trump could step up to the plate and do so today and a vast majority of his followers would put them on.  But he won't. He'll act like a kid throwing a tantrum.  If he can't have the country he'll make damn sure it ain't gonna be pretty for the next guy. Maybe when he's gone some of 'em will think a bit more serious about it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on October 13, 2020, 08:18:08 AM
The first thing he'll do is help convince folks to put on a fucking mask in public and that by doing so tens of thousands of lives could be spared.


Will Biden create a national mask mandate or will he do what Trump is doing and let the governors and local leaders decided what is best for their people? What exactly is Biden's pandemic plan? How does it differ from Trump's? He says he'll do a better job. What will he do?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on October 13, 2020, 08:45:07 AM
FP,

I don't dispute China not FUBAR'ing it. Have stated this several times.

It ain't like a neighbors dog that poops in your driveway where you ask the neighbor to come to clean it up.  Once a virus hits our shores, it's our problem and the buck stops on the president's desk.

As to WHO there is quite a bit of details at the link below.

http://apnews.com/article/3c061794970661042b18d5aeaaed9fae

BC, It hardly equates to expecting the neighbor cleaning shit up in your driveway. At this point, there is still a very real possibility that the CCP purposely unleashed covid. Do you recall the WHO's first proclamation was that it likely originated in the Wuhan wet market, it couldn't have originated in the lab? This was information from the CCP and the WHO was the mouthpiece.

You and the left repeatedly blame Trumps response. What in your mind should Trump have done? Maybe that's a better place to get to the root of your rationale rather than equate it to the popular narrative


edit to add; I could not get your link to load but I believe that I have read it before. The AP by the way has done an excellent job of carry water for the WHO and the Chinese commies, too
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 13, 2020, 09:42:16 AM
FP,

Sorry for your problems with the link, it's the same link that comes up when shared via email or link. Maybe someone else can open it?  In any case, don't shoot the messenger.

As for a purposeful 'unleashing' of the virus, you seem convinced, I'm not and that's fine.  We're not right nor are we wrong with our thoughts posted here.  Best leave it at that.

As for Trump, citizens, residents, mayors, governors should have known sooner what the impact of the virus could be.  It was up to Trump to tell Americans what we might be facing and how serious he thought it would be, which we now have on tape.  Instead, he decided to do otherwise, to puh puh the virus down the road.  Unfortunately, the virus does not speak English and did not heed his command.  We deserved to hear the truth.  I don't buy the panic excuse. 

The remaining 'beef' and what Trump should have done instead have been stated before in the previous 70 some pages in this thread.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/10/13/trump-rally-supporters-covid-19-sots-tuchman-ac360-vpx.cnn

Watch when the lady is asked what she would do if Trump asked the audience to wear a mask.  His supporters, mayors, governors etc would listen and do it as well.  He could have suggested mask mandates all over the place and we'd have 'em without a fuss. Many thousands would still be alive today, and many thousands would not die in the future.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on October 13, 2020, 11:48:18 AM
As for Trump, citizens, residents, mayors, governors should have known sooner what the impact of the virus could be.



Trump banned travel from China in January. People think his actions was so strict, it had to have been racist. Democrats didn't sound the alarm because they were too busy impeaching.




It was up to Trump to tell Americans what we might be facing and how serious he thought it would be, which we now have on tape.  Instead, he decided to do otherwise, to puh puh the virus down the road.  Unfortunately, the virus does not speak English and did not heed his command.  We deserved to hear the truth.  I don't buy the panic excuse. 



People were fighting over toilet paper and you want Trump to get people more worried. The truth wouldn't help anybody because there was not enough masks to go around. You had the truth in January. A city in Italy decided to have a hug a Chinese day to counter Trump's racist travel ban. Did you choose to believe those politicians or Trump. We had truth revealed in early February on this forum page 1 of this thread. I was warning people this is bad. The news said China was quarantining tens of millions of people and Trump did a travel ban. Hello!!!! This wasn't the flu we're dealing with. Democratic leaders have access to the same intelligence Trump did and what did they do to sound off warnings? I was telling people the importance of masks and got ridiculed by people on your side of the political fence. There was enough info for people to be warned. Some people panicked, others ignored it. Did you ignore it? That is on you, not Trump.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on October 13, 2020, 12:04:25 PM

I have THREE biz partners that most certainly are better qualified that you or I....

We have NO idea how long having antibodies lasts and how different people can be more open to  second dose ..

In Volgograd, I know of three generations who have tested positive and are asymptomatic - aged 57 down to 7 ...  Would you 'argue' this means COVID is 'nothing to worry about' ?

Indeed you don't.

Again stop claiming I've said stuff that I have never said. Perhaps you just misunderstand what I write?

I've never ever suggested covid is nothing to worry about but I have questioned the proportionality of our strategies to tackle it. And yes I'd favour an approach to that of Sweden but it is my opinion and there are plenty facts to back it up. I wont however get bogged down in a mud wrestle with you over this, so just park the predicable replies that are easily debunked.

My point still holds more water than yours though because you can only sight a handful of global cases of re-infection, which leads you to making bold claims of herd immunity being a complete hoax and a waste of time.

I can sight facts where literally hundreds of millions of people have come into contact with covid, a small proportion have been infected, a tiny proportion have died and we know their state and from those 100's of millions only a few who have made the front pages have officially been re-infected.

Read into that what you want but forget about making assumptions or false claims about what I've said.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 13, 2020, 12:28:27 PM

Trump banned travel from China in January. People think his actions was so strict, it had to have been racist. Democrats didn't sound the alarm because they were too busy impeaching.

You keep bringing this up pretty much as the sole argument for what Trump did.  The 'one-shot' cure if you will for all that ails his further response.  What else did he do to protect us?  Not talking about what he did for folks that were ill and dying, but the massive effort he made to protect folks from getting infected and dying.


Quote
People were fighting over toilet paper and you want Trump to get people more worried. The truth wouldn't help anybody because there was not enough masks to go around. You had the truth in January. A city in Italy decided to have a hug a Chinese day to counter Trump's racist travel ban. Did you choose to believe those politicians or Trump. We had truth revealed in early February on this forum page 1 of this thread. I was warning people this is bad. The news said China was quarantining tens of millions of people and Trump did a travel ban. Hello!!!! This wasn't the flu we're dealing with. Democratic leaders have access to the same intelligence Trump did and what did they do to sound off warnings? I was telling people the importance of masks and got ridiculed by people on your side of the political fence. There was enough info for people to be warned. Some people panicked, others ignored it. Did you ignore it? That is on you, not Trump.

Billy,

I recognize you were sounding the alarm all along.  Many of the things you said might happen with the virus rang true with time, even when I had doubts very early on.  IIRC you got a lot of naysayers and even still do from time to time.  What a president says or not has the power to shifts economic markets and quite a few members here hung on every word.  Nahh... won't happen, even as it was very 'happening' here in Italy, won't happen here until it hit NYC.  Thumbs up for trying though.

We used to see scuffles in supermarkets all the time when a big sale was on, folks beating down doors, and IIRC even injuries and a few deaths, one I'm sure of trampled by the mob.  Surely we can handle TP fights.  There were little scuffles here as well up to the day that the government guaranteed that merchandise would flow freely, that there would be no shortages of TP or anything else for that matter.  Within a few days, buying calmed down and only a few items scarce here and there.  Certainly, nothing to fight over.  The government gave assurances, TP stocked up again and that was that.  It does not justify holding back information.  It does not justify the leader of our nation to decide what we should hear and what we should not, nor to minimize the very high potential of a hazard ahead.  Sorta like someone hearing the train honk, but telling the blind man to walk across the tracks.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on October 13, 2020, 01:56:56 PM
Billy,

I recognize you were sounding the alarm all along.  Many of the things you said might happen with the virus rang true with time, even when I had doubts very early on.  IIRC you got a lot of naysayers and even still do from time to time.  What a president says or not has the power to shifts economic markets and quite a few members here hung on every word.  Nahh... won't happen, even as it was very 'happening' here in Italy, won't happen here until it hit NYC.  Thumbs up for trying though.



There was enough evidence out there to see this was going to be big, even with China deceiving us. I've never said anything bad about Obama's handling of the swine flu. I never worried about the swine flu, various bird flus, SARS and MERS. You can search my posts. This virus was different. The behavior of the virus was different and the fact China quickly locked down more people than the entire population of Italy and other clues should be enough to figure out this was going to be a bad one that would change the way we live.


You keep bringing this up pretty much as the sole argument for what Trump did.  The 'one-shot' cure if you will for all that ails his further response.  What else did he do to protect us?  Not talking about what he did for folks that were ill and dying, but the massive effort he made to protect folks from getting infected and dying.



Your hate for Trump is strong enough to blind you to see all what he has done. He didn't one shot the virus with a China travel ban. After that he alarmed the world again by banning travel from Europe. He went around the world trying to buy up everything for America's benefit. Remember you were mad at Trump for buying up all the PPE and trying to buy up a German vaccine company? He enacted war powers to force companies to make masks and ventilators for America first. He gave daily briefings to educate Americans about the virus and what government was doing. Some liberal networks stopped showing the daily briefings because they didn't want to give the impression Trump was doing the right thing. Do they really care about saving lives or making Trump look bad. Trump let Dr Fauci, Brix, the Surgeon General and many other experts speak at the daily briefings. He gave trillions to American and foreign companies to find treatments and vaccines. He appointed a task force led by VP Pence to give governors anything they need. All that and America's economy is turning out to be less damaged than our allies.


Biden, from his basement, talked to his science and medical experts about the coronavirus. Not once did Biden speak up to educate Americans more than Trump already has. He complained about lack of masks but Trump allowed governors to make decisions on masks. If Biden doesn't create a national mask mandate, he'll be no different than Trump on the issue.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on October 13, 2020, 02:12:04 PM

There was enough evidence out there to see this was going to be big, even with China deceiving us. I've never said anything bad about Obama's handling of the swine flu. I never worried about the swine flu, various bird flus, SARS and MERS. You can search my posts. This virus was different. The behavior of the virus was different and the fact China quickly locked down more people than the entire population of Italy and other clues should be enough to figure out this was going to be a bad one that would change the way we live.



Your hate for Trump is strong enough to blind you to see all what he has done. He didn't one shot the virus with a China travel ban. After that he alarmed the world again by banning travel from Europe. He went around the world trying to buy up everything for America's benefit. Remember you were mad at Trump for buying up all the PPE and trying to buy up a German vaccine company? He enacted war powers to force companies to make masks and ventilators for America first. He gave daily briefings to educate Americans about the virus and what government was doing. Some liberal networks stopped showing the daily briefings because they didn't want to give the impression Trump was doing the right thing. Do they really care about saving lives or making Trump look bad. Trump let Dr Fauci, Brix, the Surgeon General and many other experts speak at the daily briefings. He gave trillions to American and foreign companies to find treatments and vaccines. He appointed a task force led by VP Pence to give governors anything they need. All that and America's economy is turning out to be less damaged than our allies.


Biden, from his basement, talked to his science and medical experts about the coronavirus. Not once did Biden speak up to educate Americans more than Trump already has. He complained about lack of masks but Trump allowed governors to make decisions on masks. If Biden doesn't create a national mask mandate, he'll be no different than Trump on the issue.

Well said Billy.

Eff Mr Basement Biden
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 13, 2020, 02:18:43 PM
Once again, can I point out that many more Chinese went to Thailand in Jan / Feb 2020, while SC was there and their rates were not high in Thailand


They made folks sanitise their hands before entering shops and took temps ... masks were not compulsory until VERY late March..



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 13, 2020, 02:51:12 PM
What else did he do to protect us?  Not talking about what he did for folks that were ill and dying, but the massive effort he made to protect folks from getting infected and dying.


The travel ban helped immensely.  The US quickly got in a hole in the critical first few weeks because of inadequate testing capability (perhaps the weakest of all Western nations).  And  some of this inadequate testing is carried forward from Obama's tenure.  Trump's team turned that around quickly, but the genie was out of the bottle.   Trump's team also did much to correct our PPE shortages. 

You keep harping the political tactic that Trump is to blame for the deaths.  People died everywhere around the globe.  Given America's individualism and cultural diversity, maybe Trump did as well as possible vs. a more monocultural population. 

The decision of how best to address a pandemic is more than preventing deaths.  It involves tradeoffs.  Maybe you should give Trump credit for saving as much of the economy (smaller decline than any other Western nation) while saving over 99.9% of us from death.  And today the economy is re-growing at fast rate, and soon we will have vaccines.  The sun is rising. 

Quote
Not talking about what he did for folks that were ill and dying 

I single this out because Trump did bring the Federal government resources  to help the epicenter of the pandemic - the NYC area.  The Feds quickly provided additional hospitals and respirators when the NY Governor projected a critical shortage. 

A great number of New Yorkers died.  Many as a result of government decisions made at the State level. 

Sidebar - Can you believe Cuomo is doing a tour to sell his new book "Leadership Lessons from the COVID-19 Pandemic?"   An NBC reporter asked Cuomo what lessons did he learn from returning COVID patients to nursing homes rather than keeping them isolated in underutilized hospitals.  Cuomo dodged the question. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 13, 2020, 03:10:05 PM

If Biden doesn't create a national mask mandate, he'll be no different than Trump on the issue.

In the VP debate, the first question asked to Kamala is what she and Biden will do differently than Trump about the pandemic.  Kamala dodged the question. 

Biden will not do anything differently, and I assert if he were President for 2020, the situation would be worse.  For example, Biden criticized the Trump ban.  For months in his basement, Biden never gave specific information about what he would do differently than Trump.  Finally, in late August, Biden spoke and said:

'I would shut it down': Biden says if scientists recommended, he would lock down country to curb COVID-19.

Which scientists Joe?  There is no consensus among health scientists about many COVID issues.   And now the WHO says a lock down is a measure of last resort.   BC, your Biden is weak, an empty vessel, and would not do as well as Trump in leading us out of this pandemic.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on October 13, 2020, 04:01:40 PM
Hhhmm, the WHO's Dr. David Nabbaro said:


~ “We in the World Health Organization do not advocate lockdowns as the primary means of control of this virus,” Nabarro said. He added that lockdowns can only be justified “to buy you time to reorganize, regroup, rebalance your resources, protect your health workers who are exhausted. But by and large, we’d rather not do it.” ~
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on October 13, 2020, 04:54:38 PM
FP,

Sorry for your problems with the link, it's the same link that comes up when shared via email or link. Maybe someone else can open it?  In any case, don't shoot the messenger.

As for a purposeful 'unleashing' of the virus, you seem convinced, I'm not and that's fine.  We're not right nor are we wrong with our thoughts posted here.  Best leave it at that.

BC, as I said I couldn't read it. It started to load then went blank each of the 3 times I tried. I likely have read it but couldn't be sure so I can't use it as any fact to back your position. But I can tell you that I have worked with the AP for many years and witnessed a once proud and stellar institution for factual news has sunken to levels I never dreamed possible. Even before Trump ran for president the AP had been slipping away from control of it's membership and to the whims of the leftist narrative. It has truly fallen and can be held to the low esteem of the NYT.

I am not convinced that the virus was purposefully unleashed nor am I convinced that it wasn't. China's action along with the WHO's lack of action in the time frame discussed certainly is suspect. Was it attack on the world economy as well as the world health, who knows? We know it came from a lab in China. How, why when and where is not yet determined


Quote
As for Trump, citizens, residents, mayors, governors should have known sooner what the impact of the virus could be.  It was up to Trump to tell Americans what we might be facing and how serious he thought it would be, which we now have on tape.  Instead, he decided to do otherwise, to puh puh the virus down the road.  Unfortunately, the virus does not speak English and did not heed his command.  We deserved to hear the truth.  I don't buy the panic excuse. 

The remaining 'beef' and what Trump should have done instead have been stated before in the previous 70 some pages in this thread.

Perhaps we should all have known sooner IF China and the WHO had acted responsibly. Trump actually took the first action of most nations when he banned first China then all international travel. At the time the world only knew of the virus but not about the virus. China likely knew then. The WHO should have known and likely did but stood steadfast protecting China rather than the world. We heard the truth from Trump as he knew it. You seem to be at issue with the manner in which he framed and told it to the public. You can disagree with that if you wish but in hindsight it doesn't make you right, either. The truth at that time wasn't known by anyone other than CCP and the WHO

Quote
http://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2020/10/13/trump-rally-supporters-covid-19-sots-tuchman-ac360-vpx.cnn

Watch when the lady is asked what she would do if Trump asked the audience to wear a mask.  His supporters, mayors, governors etc would listen and do it as well.  He could have suggested mask mandates all over the place and we'd have 'em without a fuss. Many thousands would still be alive today, and many thousands would not die in the future.

That has nothing to do with nothing brother. If Trump had suggest everyone wear a mask there is zero evidence even one life would be saved. If he had done what Biden is saying he will do, mask mandates and lock downs deaths will likely go up. Let's explore the masks for a second. The CDC and the WHO both issued statements in March that the masks will not protect us from the virus. Why? Because the virus is microscopic aerosol meaning it will move with airflow. It is not splatter which is what the masks are designed to hinder. That being surgical masks, the trendy cloth masks won't even stop that. Unless you're donned in a gas mask and a hazmat suit, you have no protection. It's a false sense of security. The choice to wear a mask is and should remain a personal one

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on October 13, 2020, 08:11:20 PM
...Biden, from his basement, talked to his science and medical experts about the coronavirus. Not once did Biden speak up to educate Americans more than Trump already has. He complained about lack of masks but Trump allowed governors to make decisions on masks. If Biden doesn't create a national mask mandate, he'll be no different than Trump on the issue.


Dementia Joe and his 'science'? Science is so heavily used these days by our politicians as though science is static. I can't blame Dementia Joe, especially not in his current state - LMAO! Even an ex-white house physician is now saying he should be given a cognitive test to make sure he's 'all there'...so damned funny.


Anyway, it wasn't long ago (March 2020) 'science', uttered from the very mouth of Mr. Science himself, Anthony Fauci that *masks* can make you feel a little better but unnecessary. Warns us of *unintended consequences*.


Please note how interesting it is that CBS blocked the video of the interview.


http://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-fauci-in-march-masks-make-you-feel-a-little-bit-better-but-unnecessary-for-general-population-warns-of-unintended-consequences (http://www.dailywire.com/news/watch-fauci-in-march-masks-make-you-feel-a-little-bit-better-but-unnecessary-for-general-population-warns-of-unintended-consequences)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on October 13, 2020, 09:34:11 PM
BC, as I said I couldn't read it. It started to load then went blank each of the 3 times I tried. I likely have read it but couldn't be sure so I can't use it as any fact to back your position. But I can tell you that I have worked with the AP for many years and witnessed a once proud and stellar institution for factual news has sunken to levels I never dreamed possible. Even before Trump ran for president the AP had been slipping away from control of it's membership and to the whims of the leftist narrative. It has truly fallen and can be held to the low esteem of the NYT.

I am not convinced that the virus was purposefully unleashed nor am I convinced that it wasn't. China's action along with the WHO's lack of action in the time frame discussed certainly is suspect. Was it attack on the world economy as well as the world health, who knows? We know it came from a lab in China. How, why when and where is not yet determined


Perhaps we should all have known sooner IF China and the WHO had acted responsibly. Trump actually took the first action of most nations when he banned first China then all international travel. At the time the world only knew of the virus but not about the virus. China likely knew then. The WHO should have known and likely did but stood steadfast protecting China rather than the world. We heard the truth from Trump as he knew it. You seem to be at issue with the manner in which he framed and told it to the public. You can disagree with that if you wish but in hindsight it doesn't make you right, either. The truth at that time wasn't known by anyone other than CCP and the WHO

That has nothing to do with nothing brother. If Trump had suggest everyone wear a mask there is zero evidence even one life would be saved. If he had done what Biden is saying he will do, mask mandates and lock downs deaths will likely go up. Let's explore the masks for a second. The CDC and the WHO both issued statements in March that the masks will not protect us from the virus. Why? Because the virus is microscopic aerosol meaning it will move with airflow. It is not splatter which is what the masks are designed to hinder. That being surgical masks, the trendy cloth masks won't even stop that. Unless you're donned in a gas mask and a hazmat suit, you have no protection. It's a false sense of security. The choice to wear a mask is and should remain a personal one

You say you worked with the AP for many years.

May I ask how so? In what capacity?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 14, 2020, 03:51:23 AM
Speaking of Scientist v Political 'popularity' ..

http://www.newscientist.com/article/2237475-covid-19-news-uk-government-ignored-scientists-advice-on-lockdown/ (http://www.newscientist.com/article/2237475-covid-19-news-uk-government-ignored-scientists-advice-on-lockdown/)

UK government ignored scientists’ advice on  ( another ) lockdown
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 14, 2020, 08:02:33 AM
Speaking of Scientist v Political 'popularity' ..

http://www.newscientist.com/article/2237475-covid-19-news-uk-government-ignored-scientists-advice-on-lockdown/ (http://www.newscientist.com/article/2237475-covid-19-news-uk-government-ignored-scientists-advice-on-lockdown/)

UK government ignored scientists’ advice on  ( another ) lockdown


This says UK scientists disagree with WHO's advice that a lockdown should be used only as a last resort. 

In your opinion are WHO scientists untrustworthy? 

Or maybe we still have much to learn and resolve about this pandemic?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 14, 2020, 09:20:30 AM
I have mentioned the tradeoff between lockdown and the economy. 

IMF yesterday released its latest information about growth projections.

The projected decline in economic growth for the year 2020 among the advanced economies is  as follows: 

United States         -4.3%
Japan                    -5.3%
Germany               -6.0%
Canada                 -7.1%
United Kingdom     -9.8%
France                  - 9.8%
Italy                    -10.6%
Spain                   -12.8%
       
Economists frequently do cost-benefit analysis about the ratio of cost to lives saved.  It seems insensitive, yet it is a frequently cited measurement.  One can see the tradeoff. 

BTW, the one economy that did not decline is China, growing at 1.9% in 2020.   



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on October 14, 2020, 09:30:02 AM
I have mentioned the tradeoff between lockdown and the economy. 

IMF yesterday released its latest information about growth projections.

The projected decline in economic growth for the year 2020 among the advanced economies is  as follows: 

United States         -4.3%
Japan                    -5.3%
Germany               -6.0%
Canada                 -7.1%
United Kingdom     -9.8%
France                  - 9.8%
Italy                    -10.6%
Spain                   -12.8%
       
Economists frequently do cost-benefit analysis about the ratio of cost to lives saved.  It seems insensitive, yet it is a frequently cited measurement.  One can see the tradeoff. 

BTW, the one economy that did not decline is China, growing at 1.9% in 2020.

That one stat alone speaks volumes as to why 1) we have a virus and 2) why both CCP and the WHO stayed so tight lipped
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on October 14, 2020, 10:43:56 AM
I have mentioned the tradeoff between lockdown and the economy. 

IMF yesterday released its latest information about growth projections.

The projected decline in economic growth for the year 2020 among the advanced economies is  as follows: 

United States         -4.3%
Japan                    -5.3%
Germany               -6.0%
Canada                 -7.1%
United Kingdom     -9.8%
France                  - 9.8%
Italy                    -10.6%
Spain                   -12.8%
       
Economists frequently do cost-benefit analysis about the ratio of cost to lives saved.  It seems insensitive, yet it is a frequently cited measurement.  One can see the tradeoff. 

BTW, the one economy that did not decline is China, growing at 1.9% in 2020.

Japan also did not do lockdowns.

Where are the stats for Sweden?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 14, 2020, 11:30:29 AM

Where are the stats for Sweden?

Small economy, not listed with the major economies.    Probably in the IMF report.  I read only the news release. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on October 14, 2020, 11:41:14 AM
Where are the stats for Sweden?



Here are all the nations. The only major economies among 1st world nations that are predicted to have less economic damage than America are Taiwan, South Korea, and Australia.


http://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDP_RPCH@WEO/OEMDC/ADVEC/WEOWORLD (http://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDP_RPCH@WEO/OEMDC/ADVEC/WEOWORLD)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 14, 2020, 01:18:12 PM
Japan also did not do lockdowns.

YES, they did ...

Where are the stats for Sweden?

Rising fast .. their rates the same as the UK's in the last two days ( proportionally)

Finland locked down and saw it's QTR2 output fall more than 2 percent less than Sweden ..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 14, 2020, 01:30:47 PM
Rising fast .. their rates the same as the UK's in the last two days ( proportionally)

Confederate asked about IMF's projection of  economic decline (the subject of what he quoted), specifically  for Sweden.  "Rates?"   Rate of COVID infections was not mentioned by IMF.

Quote
Finland locked down and saw it's QTR2 output fall more than 2 percent less than Sweden ..

I believe something like this is what Confederate asked about. 

BTW, Finland vs. Sweden is like South Carolina vs. Michigan. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 14, 2020, 02:08:47 PM
Confederate asked about IMF's projection of  economic decline (the subject of what he quoted), specifically  for Sweden.  "Rates?"   Rate of COVID infections was not mentioned by IMF.

My 'bad' .. I simply read the title of the thread and assumed we'd be talking COVID not economies

BTW, Finland vs. Sweden is like South Carolina vs. Michigan.

Hardly,

FI / S are neighbouring nations sharing many similar facets - S.Carolina and Michigan are indeed diverse ;)

Fact is Sweden did not lockdown, killed more citizens AND suffered a worse economic downturn that FI ... S relies on other nations for trade as does FI





Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 14, 2020, 02:24:54 PM
My 'bad' .. I simply read the title of the thread and assumed we'd be talking COVID not economies

We were talking about the relationship among COVID, its mitigation and the economy.  The three are not independent variables.   



Quote
FI / S are neighbouring nations sharing many similar facets - S.Carolina and Michigan are indeed diverse ;)

I was talking about the comparable size of the economies of these two nations and two states, i. e. none is very large.  FYI, SC and MI both speak the same language.  Seriously, their economies are similar.  The politics and mitigation efforts of both differ. 

Quote
Fact is Sweden did not lockdown, killed more citizens AND suffered a worse economic downturn that FI ... S relies on other nations for trade as does FI

Swedes make fun of the Finns as not being smart.  How about other Nordic countries?   How does Sweden compare with UK, etc. based on population?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 14, 2020, 02:35:54 PM
We were talking about the relationship among COVID, its mitigation and the economy.  The three are not independent variables.   

Indeed, but it was my 'bad' not checking the actual context ..
 You corrected me ;)

I was talking about the comparable size of the economies of these two nations and two states, i. e. none is very large.  FYI, SC and MI both speak the same language.  Seriously, their economies are similar.  The mitigation efforts of both differ. 

Swedes make fun of the Finns as not being smart.  How about other Nordic countries?   How does Sweden compare with UK, etc. based on population?

Sweden has previously 'controlled' the Finns ...not sure if that makes 'em smarter, having 'let them' leave..!

FI has nearly half the population, but they are both net exporters, had similar GDP per capita and low inflation rates in 2019.

Sweden had TEN times the death rate of Finland ( and Norway) to COVID as of August '20 ...and SIX times that of her neighbour to the south..Denmark

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on October 14, 2020, 04:02:37 PM
Confederate asked about IMF's projection of  economic decline (the subject of what he quoted), specifically  for Sweden.  "Rates?"   Rate of COVID infections was not mentioned by IMF.

I believe something like this is what Confederate asked about. 

BTW, Finland vs. Sweden is like South Carolina vs. Michigan.

Notice how he jumps into a thread without reading what's above, doesn't bother to get the context correct, posts a bunch of nonsense and then continues to argue nonsense?

The guy is a complete waste of time.

Discussing stuff with a brick would be more productive.

[Note from AnonMod - This post remains visible in order to maintain existing thread context and as an example of how NOT to reply to posts]
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on October 14, 2020, 04:06:50 PM
Sweden now a Coronavirus success story.

Editorial

http://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-sweden-now-a-coronavirus-success-story-2141207/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 14, 2020, 05:07:29 PM
Notice how he jumps into a thread without reading what's above, doesn't bother to get the context correct, posts a bunch of nonsense and then continues to argue nonsense?

The guy is a complete waste of time.


I consider it an honest mistake, albeit born from his style to post quickly.  And I admire the fact that he has committed himself to protecting his mother, forcing a long and continuing separation from his new FSU bride.

I must also recognize Moby is not not as ridiculous as those days when I found him ... disingenuous, the kindest term I can think of.  And he does introduce some information that we would otherwise miss.  I prefer to be fully informed before declaring some liberal concept is wrong.   ;D

None of us are perfect.   After the RWD moderation campaign that enforced you and me plus Moby and others to follow RWD ToS, hopefully Confederate  you find RWD a better place for exchanging news, analysis and opinions.  I do. 

It took a lot of work and time by the moderators to improve the place.  So lets keep trying for civility. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on October 14, 2020, 05:23:24 PM
Sweden now a Coronavirus success story.

Editorial

http://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-sweden-now-a-coronavirus-success-story-2141207/ (http://www.reviewjournal.com/opinion/editorials/editorial-sweden-now-a-coronavirus-success-story-2141207/)


Sweden did take steps to slow the spread of the virus but not as much as other nations. They are not too far behind dead per million as the USA but they are taking a bigger hit on the economy than America. Keep in mind, Sweden has less people than New York city and 11% more land than California. If they had to endure some of the conditions we face and had a much higher percentage of Blacks and Hispanics in their population, they may have been much worse off.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on October 14, 2020, 06:30:47 PM
Gator,
I admire your optimism.  ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 15, 2020, 12:15:08 AM

It took a lot of work and time by the moderators to improve the place.  So lets keep trying for civility.

A reminder (even to myself)

Borrowed from MSN, these guidelines should be helpful as a reference source:

  • Recognize a person’s right to advocate ideas that are different from your own
  • Discuss policies, issues and ideas, not people - and especially not individual RWD members
  • Disagree without being disagreeable
  • Use civil and helpful, not hurtful language (such as name-calling)
  • Respectfully respond to differing points of view
  • When unsure of what another poster means by what they have written, ask for clarification
  • Realize that what you write and what people understand you have written may be different. Be patient and explain yourself again if other posters misinterpret your meaning - particularly here at RWD where members have a variety of native languages, yet are doing their best to communicate in the common language of American English
  • Recognize that sometimes people can and must agree to disagree
  • If you are not sure what you are about to say is civil, find another way to say it or let it go
  • Reliance on labels for groups of people is often the first step toward the negative. Whenever possible, avoid them. They rarely add to the quality of any discussion
  • Put yourself in the other person's shoes as best as possible, to see things from a different perspective - theirs
  • Give an additional benefit of doubt to a person whose first language is not English

Any others you would like to see added to the list?

- Dan
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 15, 2020, 02:55:26 AM
quoting Dan:

"Give an additional benefit of doubt to a person whose first language is not English"

I try and bear this in mind when dealing with my cousins across the pond.;)

Thanks for your kind words, Gator. I DID jump in too, soon.

As for Sweden, it DID go for heard immunity and this HAS come out via the Finnish end, as the Swedish end 'lost' emails. The officials and scientist responsible should be booted out.

It was a disaster and numbers over the last few days are proportionally the same as the UK.. Nothing to be 'proud' of.

'Herd immunity'? Why are only 13% of Swedes in Stockholm showing  'antibodies' present?





Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on October 15, 2020, 07:41:38 AM
Sweden is a success. Here's some key facts about the country that didn't lock down.

Population - 10.23 million
Covid deaths - 5,910
Deaths 70+ - 5247
Deaths under 50 - 76

0.05% of Swedes have died with covid according to the statistics. Take out the care homes (which should have been better protected) and remove those who had multiple health problems, were critical from other illness or died with covid as opposed from covid and we're literally talking penny numbers. Claims of Sweden being a failure and a catastrophe is a great headline but look at the numbers and its relativity.

This is no reason to shut down a country and wreck the economy. Silly stuff like comparing Sweden to Finland Q2 is desperate and their economic growth for Q4/2021 is better than almost every other country. Using data from a selected short period to back up an argument is disingenuous. Swedens economy will naturally suffer more because its a larger exporter and its customers were shut....pretty simple stuff.

As of today there are less excess deaths in Sweden than there was last year and less people are dying daily compared to last year. Sweden is also on track to having fewer die this year than almost any other over the last 10 years.

People need to look at the facts before making ridiculous statements based on political ideology and emotion. Compare Sweden with Sweden, not some other country that's totally different to it. Google is your friend and I wish we'd done the same in the UK.

Social distance, wash hands, wear masks and take precautions. Protect the vulnerable, shield the weak and support national health care but FFS the rest of us can just get on with it.

http://emanuelkarlsten.se/number-of-deaths-in-sweden-during-the-pandemic-compared-to-previous-years-mortality/
http://www.statista.com/statistics/525353/sweden-number-of-deaths/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 15, 2020, 09:59:42 AM
Sweden is a success. Here's some key facts about the country that didn't lock down.

Population - 10.23 million
Covid deaths - 5,910
Deaths 70+ - 5247
Deaths under 50 - 76

Rosco,  Finland and Norway had TEN times less deaths and Denmark 6 times less  .. THEY locked down

THAT is less unsuccessful than Sweden



Silly stuff like comparing Sweden to Finland Q2 is desperate and their economic growth for Q4/2021 is better than almost every other country.

We all await Q3 results for 2020


Using data from a selected short period to back up an argument is disingenuous.

I highlighted the current facts - do you disagree with the numbers  ?

Swedens economy will naturally suffer more because its a larger exporter and its customers were shut....pretty simple stuff.

They are BOTH net exporters ...Finland's clients also mostly locked down.

As of today there are less excess deaths in Sweden than there was last year and less people are dying daily compared to last year. Sweden is also on track to having fewer die this year than almost any other over the last 10 years.

That is the case with many nations, currently and some folks are asking " why the need to have special measures" as deaths are less.

I watched Macron on France24 and he articulated a perfect riposte to such a question... "the numbers being hospitalised are up and 'we' know better how to treat folk, but these cases take up resources for people with other ailments. It is our duty as citizens to behave responsibly"

People need to look at the facts before making ridiculous statements based on political ideology and emotion.

Quite


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on October 15, 2020, 11:05:34 AM
Finland and Norway had TEN times less deaths and Denmark 6 times less  .. THEY locked down


Those three nations also had less economic damage than Sweden

http://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDP_RPCH@WEO/OEMDC/ADVEC/WEOWORLD

In the battle for which nation got it right, we should have learned by now one nation's solution won't work for all.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 15, 2020, 11:47:49 AM
Those three nations also had less economic damage than Sweden

http://www.imf.org/external/datamapper/NGDP_RPCH@WEO/OEMDC/ADVEC/WEOWORLD

Thank you Billy!  Did you mean to reinforce my point ? )

In the battle for which nation got it right, we should have learned by now one nation's solution won't work for all.

Some of us learnt that 'heard immunity' is a myth, surely ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on October 15, 2020, 01:30:20 PM
Rosco,  Finland and Norway had TEN times less deaths and Denmark 6 times less  .. THEY locked down

THAT is less unsuccessful than Sweden



We all await Q3 results for 2020


I highlighted the current facts - do you disagree with the numbers  ?

They are BOTH net exporters ...Finland's clients also mostly locked down.

That is the case with many nations, currently and some folks are asking " why the need to have special measures" as deaths are less.

I watched Macron on France24 and he articulated a perfect riposte to such a question... "the numbers being hospitalised are up and 'we' know better how to treat folk, but these cases take up resources for people with other ailments. It is our duty as citizens to behave responsibly"

Quite

Moby, you're again trying to shift the discussion.

I said - "Using data from a selected short period to back up an argument is disingenuous."

You answered me with - "I highlighted the current facts - do you disagree with the numbers  ?"

I mean what am I supposed to do with that? Clearly I'm not disagreeing with the numbers. I disagree with using data over a extremely short period of time, to justify an argument on a macroscopic scale. It's disingenuous.

I've not once said that Sweden beat covid. In fact I'm not saying that everyone should do as they have. I'm saying that if you dig into the numbers, I believe the Swedish situation is better than some are trying to sell and one I'd rather have given the social unrest and excess death migration, the rest of us are fighting today.

And Billy is right in terms of the battle of who got it right. Using Finland or Norway but not Belgium as a barometer only serves to disingenuously add weight to ones argument. That's why I said look at the data and compare Sweden with Sweden. Did you look at the links I posted where fewer people in Sweden have died in 2020 compared with each of the last 10 years? If you did then the it makes it pretty difficult to suggest Sweden got hit wrong and their advisors need sacked.....

Let's just leave it there whilst its civil.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 16, 2020, 12:09:29 AM
Moby, you're again trying to shift the discussion.

I said - "Using data from a selected short period to back up an argument is disingenuous."

You answered me with - "I highlighted the current facts - do you disagree with the numbers  ?"

The time period is getting longer to see the pattern, but you join with some Swedish officials in continued denial


http://uk.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-sweden/swedens-coronavirus-cases-keep-rising-but-official-says-it-is-not-a-second-wave-idUSL8N2H65C8 (http://uk.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-sweden/swedens-coronavirus-cases-keep-rising-but-official-says-it-is-not-a-second-wave-idUSL8N2H65C8)

"State Epidemiologist Anders Tegnell said countries like the Netherlands, France and Spain were experiencing a second wave but this was not the case in Sweden."

Sweden reported 3 new deaths on Thursday, taking the total number of COVID-19 deaths to 5,910. In terms of the overall population, that rate is several times higher than Nordic neighbours, but lower than countries like Spain, Italy and Britain that opted for lockdowns






I've not once said that Sweden beat covid. In fact I'm not saying that everyone should do as they have. I'm saying that if you dig into the numbers, I believe the Swedish situation is better than some are trying to sell and one I'd rather have given the social unrest and excess death migration, the rest of us are fighting today. {/quote]

You are suggesting 'we' should consider the Swedes are doing it 'better' .. the numbers - in direct comparison with all their neighbours, who locked down..suggest otherwise ... the death rate ratio is undeniable

I see no reason to lose civility
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 16, 2020, 05:43:17 AM
Don't worry.  Vaccines are coming. 

For the first time one of the Warp Speed six vaccine developers has announced a specific timeline. 

Quote
Pfizer Inc. said it could be ready to apply for emergency-use authorization of its Covid-19 vaccine by late November, assuming it receives positive efficacy and safety data from late-stage human trials.
      -  Wall St. Journal

Pharma  companies historically are very cautious about releasing information for drugs under development.  This can only be interpreted as the current Phase 3 trials are yielding good results. 


How does the NY Times report such promising news?

Quote
Pfizer Says It Won’t Seek Vaccine Authorization Before Mid-November 

Definition of a "glass half empty."


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on October 16, 2020, 06:33:08 AM
Don't worry.  Vaccines are coming. 
 
 
More 'happy talk' to try to pretend trump and the US are singlehandedly  slaying the virus.   Face facts, no real vaccine is coming anytime soon.  The virus will run wild until it runs it's course.  Some old people may decide staying in their basement is the best option. 

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on October 16, 2020, 07:31:17 PM
WOW! Forget excess deaths, I can see how effective such disciplined lockdowns really worked in Europe!

Amazing.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 16, 2020, 07:42:03 PM
WHAT DOES THE RECENT SURGE OF COVID-19 PORTEND FOR THE US?

Most governments in Europe relaxed their strict lockdowns in midsummer as a step towards returning to normal.   With the cooler weather of Fall, people are moving indoors, and Europe is now experiencing a spike in infections.  The rate of new infections in Europe is as bad as now being experienced in the US, long blamed by Democrats on Trump's mismanagement. 

So what does this mean?  Some possible answers.

1.  This is a preview of what will happen in the US.   The wave of US infections have trailed the timing of Europe's only to exceed Europe's peak magnitude on a population basis.   

2.  Europe and its high population densities will experience even more resurgence.  European national governments seem more reluctant to reimpose tight restrictions, and lockdown fatigue could prompt spotty compliance (as was the case in the US). 

3.  The US and the Europe will reach an endemic level of  infection somewhat higher than the current rate.   This disease continues to be highly transmissible with asymptomatic spreading.  In other words,  we are a long way from natural herd immunity.

4.  New approaches will be attempted such as quarantining the sick and protecting the vulnerable instead of not locking down the economy.    Or will Europe repeat the lockdowns of the Spring, lockdowns that had social and economic costs yet failed to protect.   

5.  Regardless of leadership and mitigation methods this epidemic is not dissipating in the West in 2021 without immunization of the population with an effective, safe vaccine.   



BTW, will Democrats now stop blaming Trump?   Of course not!






Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on October 16, 2020, 08:12:51 PM
In case you missed all the recent ads on the TV, as soon as Joe Biden gets elected, this epidemic will disappear. Biden’s leadership will defeat this virus ASAP, and with as little to no social services deployment.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on October 16, 2020, 09:00:16 PM



The only current drug the FDA approves for emergency treatment right now is Remdesivir which was administered to Trump. A 30 country study involving 11,000 people has concluded and Remdesivir has shown no benefit to saving lives. There has never been a treatment created for any coronavirus in history and there still isn't. I doubt the vaccines will be successful but due to public pressure, they will be released and work will continue to find something better.


http://www.foxnews.com/health/four-coronavirus-treatments-remdesivir-hydroxychloroquine-flop-who-study (http://www.foxnews.com/health/four-coronavirus-treatments-remdesivir-hydroxychloroquine-flop-who-study)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 16, 2020, 11:53:54 PM
WOW! Forget excess deaths, I can see how effective such disciplined lockdowns really worked in Europe!

Amazing.

I wonder if you could explain the above, please ? Who is 'forgetting' excess deaths ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 17, 2020, 04:50:23 AM
I wonder if you could explain the above, please ? Who is 'forgetting' excess deaths ?

Excess deaths?  Please focus on direct data.  I say that because some "excess deaths" could have resulted from the effects of lockdown  (e. g., stress, doctor visits curtailed resulting in adverse effects such as cancers not being detected, etc.). 

Please examine more directly connected data.   I don't follow Euro data, so I depend upon Europeans and news media.   The news media tells me that concurrent with the virus resurgence in Europe, the CFR has not declined. 
That contrasts with the US where the case fatality rate is declining.  True?

Such is what I hope a RWD member from EU would explain rather than focus on the US problem simply for fodder to criticize Trump.  It seems to me Europeans have more to be concerned about than Trump.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 17, 2020, 05:39:16 AM
Gator,

In Italy, cases are way up, around 10k per day, which is 40% above back in March.  Deaths have risen as well from a low of 10 or less per day to '50s.  Positivity is around 7% with 150 thousand tests per day, three times the amount of daily tests than in March when the positivity rate was over 20%. Currently, 6000 in hospitals and 600 in intensive care.

As discussed before, CFR is still quite a 'fuzzy' figure that declines with more tests taken.  I haven't seen anyone able to use it outside monitoring very local performance, i.e., hospital or city, maybe province/state.

In any case, our 'second wave' is definitely 'here' with masks mandated, gatherings restricted, and closure of restaurants and bars between 10 and 11 pm.  Schools and businesses remain open.  Unless deaths really go up, I expect no country-wide lockdowns as in March.  Extra hospital and intensive care capacity left unused after the first wave is being reactivated.

The big difference will be that this time 'round is that a second wave was expected, testing is way up, helping to isolate folks quickly, PPE is available in quantity, systems are in place to help prevent infections among the most vulnerable, doctors and nurses have more experience dealing with an influx of patients and managing their care along with a long break to recover emotionally and physically from the first wave.

Overall, cautiously optimistic.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on October 17, 2020, 05:50:58 AM
I can only wonder if this European surge is because of irresponsible, lack of their respective leadership. Maybe even its citizens are simply selfish bastards?!? I don’t know because their lockdown programs was apparently so successful , although I wouldn’t really know because I don’t live there to coherently discuss the matter with anyone who does.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 17, 2020, 10:28:54 AM
GQ,

Hard to pinpoint, but coincides exactly with vacation (August) and the beginning of school (15 September).  More use of mass transit and plenty of young folks partying etc. along with complacency. 

Hopefully, the new measures will start having effects in the coming weeks.  Folks do seem to be getting with the program, masks in all open places, and even in cars if anyone other than immediate family is inside.

We'll see..


(http://i.postimg.cc/5NjssSY6/Screen-Shot-2020-10-17-at-20-14-31.png)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 20, 2020, 06:35:22 AM
Daily COVID infections are increasing in Europe and the same is expected for the US in the near future.  This sounds bad, yet two charts prepared by the NYTimes show becoming infected the is not as harmful based on hospitalizations and deaths. 

First, number of patients currently hospitalized. 


(http://ci5.googleusercontent.com/proxy/6wcDfM_ALmM3l7eoPkoJJKsXTj32dBCFt425s1eQOtBJyeaeAE0FuPjUOPY2I4zqZPKF_C9Mn2bCARb7Y2coe3PXwa9KvtFzCCwgamdO9Zt48rP_nxpg1RVjN0NsV67E4AIqE3jM9Yz1DVg6XUZ6Ds3rpK4-m5FZ9aM4waIjun25IczOajbrPVYg9-ItO6L52F4_0pMbf8GLqg=s0-d-e1-ft#http://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/10/20/multimedia/20-MORNING-sub2HOSPITALIZATIONS/20-MORNING-sub2HOSPITALIZATIONS-articleLarge.png)


Second, deaths.


(http://ci4.googleusercontent.com/proxy/aKHhF1ldOf8LFLDL4Wh3Obgw0dkbwR5z7hOaAKjstKoDW7evHfEWHQm8gzWJIdV7EQ5nRQ7GDLYhN3ZI_PAecBzUR6-vi6XDs0kdFdNcqWQpYhXOugXWhH_cWBTNvXTAA8B3LQwYM6peLiSEBQOz1rNa-nhvWi-Uvp4D_J7qPBvdBMEURQ=s0-d-e1-ft#http://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/10/20/multimedia/20-MORNING-sub2DEATHS/20-MORNING-sub2DEATHS-articleLarge.png)

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 20, 2020, 06:37:30 AM
NYTimes presented a third chart  showing part of the uptick in number of cases is due to the nation doing more tests and is smarter about where to find infections.


(http://ci3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/meQ1iHGl_IvM5ZPCq2ry1UOrd3TTvSebE4QHondUazgg8ckeWG5tqB4bJXPuBk0NxOplgt8w_5WbqEnryO69V2LLEUgq3csMISM0ZMYZZoaehlXM3sHUMioQp65HeHGHM5Lc0hJc7cZoJomGriNJ-QDQtNdVofs4IGS_4dATw-tToI4=s0-d-e1-ft#http://static01.nyt.com/images/2020/10/20/multimedia/20-MORNING-sub2TESTS/20-MORNING-sub2TESTS-articleLarge.png)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on October 21, 2020, 12:42:35 PM
The liberal press continue to accuse Sweden of atrocities and consider it a disaster zone, yet its one of the few European countries currently on the UK Government approved travel corridor. i.e. its safe to visit and return without quarantining. Facts are funny things.

http://www.gov.uk/guidance/coronavirus-covid-19-travel-corridors
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on October 21, 2020, 07:24:50 PM


A 28 yo volunteer involved in AstraZeneca and Oxford University’s coronavirus vaccine trial has died. It's possible it may not be a vaccine related death.

http://www.foxnews.com/health/volunteer-astrazeneca-coronavirus-clinical-trial-dies
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 22, 2020, 05:53:55 AM
Here's a clue BillyB.. Was the taking the placebo?... VERY possibly ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on October 22, 2020, 01:44:09 PM
 (http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/gv102120dAPR20201021064514.jpg)
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/afb102220dAPR20201022054515.jpg)

(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/gv102220dAPR20201021104504.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on October 25, 2020, 07:20:52 AM
(http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/15909642/2020/10/GettyImages-1214309319-1.jpg?resize=620,349)
Quote
Mouthwashes may help lower the transmission and spread of the coronavirus (http://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/tagged/coronavirus), according to a new study (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jmv.26514).
In the study, published in the Journal of Medical Virology, researchers investigated over-the-counter mouthwashes and nasal rinses commonly found in drug stores and supermarkets, since both types of products “directly impact the major sites of reception and transmission of human coronaviruses (HCoV)” — namely, the mouth and nose — and “may provide an additional level of protection against the virus.”
To find out whether mouthwashes and nasal rinses would be effective against the coronavirus, the researchers tested a common human coronavirus (http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/types.html) known as 229e — one of several strains that typically only cause mild infections like the common cold, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/general-information.html) — not SARS‐CoV‐2, which is the virus associated with COVID‐19.
http://www.aol.com/article/lifestyle/2020/10/21/mouthwash-could-inactivate-human-coronaviruses-that-cause-infections/24658123/
OTOH----
http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2020/10/23/mouthwash-and-baby-shampoo-impact-coronavirus-studies/


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 25, 2020, 05:15:27 PM
Something interesting is happening, virus cases are sharing up in many countries but death rate is only going up a little. I know it takes a few weeks to follow through but its really looking like a different situation to the first wave. Looks like in general either the virus has changed to transmitting more easily but less deadly or people are building up resistance to it, or both. In many countries the infection rate has rocketed these past few days.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 26, 2020, 01:10:53 AM
Sighs...

Trench,
'We' know how to treat the respiratory issues, now..

Also, THIS time, many mores cases in western nations with Students..often asymptomatic..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on October 26, 2020, 04:11:03 AM
And still.......less people in Sweden are dying daily/weekly/annually than the yearly average over the last 5. Covid is still doing the rounds but the one country who has taken a significantly different route in terms of strategy, is showing remarkable data. It's a multi varied analytic approach and debunks plenty debates sparked by opposition.

*For those who want to argue against the Swedish strategy, please read the link below and absorb the facts, before waffling on about Finland.

http://emanuelkarlsten.se/number-of-deaths-in-sweden-during-the-pandemic-compared-to-previous-years-mortality/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on October 26, 2020, 04:15:02 AM
Swedish economy dodges Covid bullet - says Danske Bank.

Sweden will outperform its Nordic neighbours as well as escaping the depths of recession expected to befall the eurozone and US, according to forecasters at Danske Bank....


We all knew it, yet some like to use a 3 month period during a global lockdown and a comparison to Finland as a reason for the Swedes economic argument to be destroyed. I've always preferred facts to emotion when it comes to forming an opinion.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2020/10/06/swedish-economy-dodges-covid-bullet-says-danske-bank/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on October 26, 2020, 05:08:15 AM
That’s awesome. I’m incredibly happy for Sweden!!!

 :clapping:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 26, 2020, 05:09:22 AM
Rosco

We have a Swedish member with whom I do not seem to agree politically, who lurks and occasionally posts.

I await him telling you that Stockholm hasn't got a BIG issue with new cases.

Let's deal in known FACTS

1/ Sweden has had 10 times more deaths than it's two physically connected neighbours and 5 times more than Denmark to the south.

2/ Sweden's economy performed proportionally worse than Finland's in QTR2

3/ Antibodies present numbers in Stockholm suggest 'herd mentality' is a myth - low double figures

So, try to tell us 'Sweden's leadership handled it better' and I will simply show you those facts.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 26, 2020, 05:16:10 AM
New cases Sweden, Norway and Finland compared

http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/norway/


http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/finland/

The later nations have populations half that of Sweden and nowhere near their new cases



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on October 26, 2020, 05:20:36 AM
Rosco

We have a Swedish member with whom I do not seem to agree politically, who lurks and occasionally posts.

I await him telling you that Stockholm hasn't got a BIG issue with new cases.

Let's deal in known FACTS

1/ Sweden has had 10 times more deaths than it's two physically connected neighbours and 5 times more than Denmark to the south.

2/ Sweden's economy performed proportionally worse than Finland's in QTR2

3/ Antibodies present numbers in Stockholm suggest 'herd mentality' is a myth - low double figures

So, try to tell us 'Sweden's leadership handled it better' and I will simply show you those facts.

Are you trolling Moby?

I clearly asked anyone who was about to fumble into this post and rattle on a load of rubbish about Finland, to actually read the links. The data regarding mortality is phenomenal in Sweden and I wont be wasting time playing silly games with you.

In terms of the economy, again read what I linked. Comparing the much smaller economy of a country close to Sweden, which shrank slightly less under a global pandemic for 120 days only, isn't a strong place to hang your coat. Experts better qualified than both you and I are telling us that Sweden will perform better than almost everyone, including its Nordic neighbours.

Come back to me with sensible debate or I'll report your post for trolling. You're like a broken record, churning out old news.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 26, 2020, 05:26:12 AM
Rosco, my pointing out facts you try to ignore is 'trolling', now ... ?

Anybody would think you were desperately 'auto suggesting' ;)

I used the term proportionally in comparing Finland and Sweden ..the comparison is as 'fair' as the figures that do not lie as to the abject failure of Sweden's policy and their need to cover up the correspondence re 'herd immunity' that went missing ... but the Finnish govt specialists didn't 'lose' their end of the correspondence ....
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on October 26, 2020, 05:30:32 AM
Rosco, my pointing out facts you try to ignore is 'trolling', now ... ?

Anybody would think you were desperately 'auto suggesting' ;)

I used the term proportionally in comparing Finland and Sweden ..the comparison is as 'fair' as the figures that do not lie as to the abject failure of Sweden's policy and their need to cover up the correspondence re 'herd immunity' that went missing ... but the Finnish govt specialists didn't 'lose' their end of the correspondence ....

Oh look, the old apples and pears argument!!  :wallbash: Where's your Belgium comparison where they locked everyone down but have terrible death rates compared to Sweden? Ahhh.....those facts don't fit your narrative.

5,800 deaths from 11 million people in Sweden. Nearly all of them from care homes, terminally ill and people with multiple health issues whose days were numbered. If you were under 70, you had almost 100% chance of surviving covid yet you want to lock everyone down and destroy the economy. And after that first spike, they now have less deaths on a daily/monthly/annual basis than at any time over the last 5 years. Tell me how that's a terrible thing again?

People dying of cancer because they don't get the diagnosis or treatment. Children not being educated. Domestic abuse soaring. Mental health issues through the roof. Suicide is now one of the biggest killers whilst covid struggles to make the top 20.

Just admit that you're wrong about Sweden Moby. It's like being offended.....nothing actually happens.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 26, 2020, 07:25:51 AM
This recent articles has some interesting information.

http://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-10-sweden-guns-covid-cases.html

Quote
And while images in the media occasionally show crowded city buses and restaurants, surveys by the Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency found that 80 percent of Swedes have changed their behaviour as a result of recommendations.

They are working from home or limiting social contacts—even though there are no fines or sanctions for disregarding them.

In the Sodermalm neighbourhood of Stockholm, where mostly unmasked cyclists and pedestrians hurried to work during the morning rush hour, Roger Palmqvist told AFP he trusted the Swedish approach.

But he acknowledged the lighter Swedish touch would probably not work everywhere.

"There's nothing that forces you, but Swedes are like that you know, they follow (rules)," said the 60-year-old sea captain, noting that cultures were different in other parts of Europe.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 26, 2020, 08:07:27 AM
Oh look, the old apples and pears argument!!  :wallbash: Where's your Belgium comparison where they locked everyone down but have terrible death rates compared to Sweden? Ahhh.....those facts don't fit your narrative.

IF ONLY you paused to think before posting you'd realise who is actually guilty of THAT when facts do not suit ...

Comparing neighbouring nations is a great way of comparing what they are doing wrong or right

It was noted, once again, how you ducked the 'herd immunity' scandal and 'missing emails' at Sweden's end re 'herd immunity'   

5,800 deaths from 11 million people in Sweden. Nearly all of them from care homes, terminally ill and people with multiple health issues whose days were numbered. If you were under 70, you had almost 100% chance of surviving covid yet you want to lock everyone down and destroy the economy. And after that first spike, they now have less deaths on a daily/monthly/annual basis than at any time over the last 5 years. Tell me how that's a terrible thing again?

1/ Sweden' govt even admit 'mistakes' ... re protecting their old

2/ Most developed nations know how to treat serious cases

People dying of cancer because they don't get the diagnosis or treatment. Children not being educated. Domestic abuse soaring. Mental health issues through the roof. Suicide is now one of the biggest killers whilst covid struggles to make the top 20.

You DO realise you are proving you simply cannot be thinking, logically. Healthcare is affected by staff who cannot work due to being in contact with infected people ..

I have a good mate who has been bricking it re Prostate cancer - it took FAR longer than normal to get " it's a growth, but not deadly"  result.

We await visa applications being processed in longer times .. This is because folk are working from home

My Mum is stir crazy when my sis' cannot visit

You 'preach' as if others do not  see the downside of precautions and ignore the reasoning WHY

Just admit that you're wrong about Sweden Moby. It's like being offended.....nothing actually happens.

I'm afraid you're being in denial re the  factual numbers presented suggests you will 'wait' a LONG time ..  I can only surmise you deliberately didn't check the new case numbers
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on October 26, 2020, 08:11:37 AM
I’m not sure the hundreds of thousands of Muslim immigrants, who live in high density urban enclaves, can have their living, working or social arrangements described as in the article above.

In short though I agree that Swedes behave different to Finns, Danes & Belgians and we can only compare Sweden with Sweden. Right now less Swedes are dying on a rolling basis than any other year in recent history, it’s remarkable.

I fully support changing our lives and learning to live with the virus. Cancelling our lives only means we sacrifice others in different ways.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on October 26, 2020, 08:17:13 AM
IF ONLY you paused to think before posting you'd realise who is actually guilty of THAT when facts do not suit ...

Comparing neighbouring nations is a great way of comparing what they are doing wrong or right

It was noted, once again, how you ducked the 'herd immunity' scandal and 'missing emails' at Sweden's end re 'herd immunity'   

1/ Sweden' govt even admit 'mistakes' ... re protecting their old

2/ Most developed nations know how to treat serious cases

You DO realise you are proving you simply cannot be thinking, logically. Healthcare is affected by staff who cannot work due to being in contact with infected people ..

I have a good mate who has been bricking it re Prostate cancer - it took FAR longer than normal to get " it's a growth, but not deadly"  result.

We await visa applications being processed in longer times .. This is because folk are working from home

My Mum is stir crazy when my sis' cannot visit

You 'preach' as if others do not  see the downside of precautions and ignore the reasoning WHY

I'm afraid you're being in denial re the  factual numbers presented suggests you will 'wait' a LONG time ..  I can only surmise you deliberately didn't check the new case numbers

Moby I won’t be repeating anything for your benefit because you’re too lazy to read or think about what you think you’ve read. Sweden isn’t perfect by any standards but you simply can’t accept that Sweden is anything other than a catastrophic failure because you’ve picked your team and you need to stick with it.

The numbers and data says it all. You’ve only got a 12 week financial window from Finland and an attempted comparison to neighbouring countries to form an argument.

Anything suggesting some sort of success in Sweden triggers your hate. You need to get over it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on October 26, 2020, 08:22:16 AM
Moby I won’t be repeating anything

The numbers and data says it all. [/quote]

Agree

Anything suggesting some sort of success in Sweden triggers your hate. You need to get over it.

Incorrect,

Your posting 'data' that misrepresents Sweden's 'success' is what I responded to


Once again, you ducked the 'herd immunity' and missing emails scandal, so I KNOW you aren't in communication with anyone from Sweden on a near daily basis .

I like Sweden, as you know .. it is you who has been 'vocal' re their immigration policy
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on October 26, 2020, 09:35:58 AM
I work with 2 large international Scandinavian businesses, have around 100 Swedish colleagues and have 2 of my close friends who live in Sweden, married to Swedes. My best friends mother is Swedish who lives in Sweden again.

I’ve got a pretty good idea how things work Moby or are you going to try and tell me I’m wrong about this too? According to your beliefs, I have more Swedish contacts ergo my opinion trumps yours....

I’m telling you this now because as ever, you seem to think you’re the best connected & most clever man in the room, whilst we mere mortals know nothing. Your posts are making you look like a really silly boy.

Herd immunity may or may not work for this particular virus and we’ll know more as times goes by. What we do know is that proportionally, a handful of elderly & gravely ill Swedes died in a country that wasn’t locked down and we were told that up to 200,000 would die. The reality is very different and bizarrely they have fewer deaths this year than any other in recent time.

Other countries who did lock down have ruined economies and excess mortality by other causes. This is worthy of consideration and people like you calling Sweden out as catastrophic, need their heads looked at.

I’d suggest you run along and take your free 50/1 Trump bet too!!

 ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on October 26, 2020, 12:18:45 PM
Sighs...

Trench,
'We' know how to treat the respiratory issues, now..

Also, THIS time, many mores cases in western nations with Students..often asymptomatic..

We know of some ways to treat it that may or may not work. Even a if treated there may be a possibility of long term health problems. Some people are of course still dying. While younger people may be spreading the virus and caring less as the outlook is likely not so bad for them I think the whole picture is still somewhat different than before. No doubt still potentially unpleasant to get even if mildly.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 26, 2020, 02:32:48 PM
The resurgence of the virus in Europe has even made American news, which normally gives little attention to Europe.  This article headline is typical.   

Italy imposes harshest coronavirus restrictions since spring lockdown as second wave sweeps Europe

There are other articles such as one claiming the actual deaths in France could be twice the number reported.

I recall how smug some of our Euro members spoke in early summer, claiming their strict and extended economic shutdown had corralled the virus.  Some with a political biases used preliminary data to blame Trump for mismanaging America's response.  We now see such claims of mismanagement  were unwarranted.   We are in the same boat. 

In America we understand that the virus can not be controlled unless drastic measures are undertaken OR effective and safe vaccines are developed and administered en masse.   Until then we must continue to mitigate and to not be surprised by outbreaks.  The resurgence in Europe apparently is a preview of our future as new cases already exceed a peak record set in the Spring.         
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 26, 2020, 02:49:18 PM
Drastic measures can still work.  Consider a recent episode in China, where this horrible pandemic originated.   

"Xinjiang health authorities said that the first asymptomatic case in the Kashgar area was detected Saturday and that 2.8 million residents had been tested by Sunday afternoon." By Monday evening, a total of 4.5 million had been tested, which is nearly the entire population.   That evening authorities reported finding 164 asymptomatic cases.

Mobilizing, testing and analyzing on such a grand scale seems impossible for America, or at least prohibitively expensive.  In my home county of 1.5 million, public health officials report finding 1,120 cases of new infections after performing a mere 11,200 tests.  And our reported cases are slowly ticking upwards. 



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on October 26, 2020, 03:11:16 PM
There's a good documentary on Amazon right now, Totally Under Control, that discusses some of the differences between the US response and that of (mostly) South Korea.  I recommend it.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 26, 2020, 03:29:46 PM
There's a good documentary on Amazon right now, Totally Under Control, that discusses some of the differences between the US response and that of (mostly) South Korea.  I recommend it.


This post was composed without the aid of google.

South Korea's program is a model to follow.  Voluntary compliance seems easier in monoculture nations. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on October 26, 2020, 04:08:38 PM
One of the points the documentary made was that in South Korea, politicians did not drive the response.  It was directed solely by scientists and medical professionals.  They decided the lockdowns, how people would be tested, etc.  Some of this came after their experience with SARS.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on October 26, 2020, 04:45:06 PM
The USA is the only country [I know of] where blame is practically placed on it's leader for the pandemic....Try doing that in China (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/undecided.gif)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 27, 2020, 02:42:13 AM

I recall how smug some of our Euro members spoke in early summer, claiming their strict and extended economic shutdown had corralled the virus.  Some with a political biases used preliminary data to blame Trump for mismanaging America's response.  We now see such claims of mismanagement  were unwarranted.   We are in the same boat. 

In America we understand that the virus can not be controlled unless drastic measures are undertaken OR effective and safe vaccines are developed and administered en masse.   Until then we must continue to mitigate and to not be surprised by outbreaks.  The resurgence in Europe apparently is a preview of our future as new cases already exceed a peak record set in the Spring.         

Gator,

Indeed numbers are up here, testing has tripled, positivity is up to around 10%.  Unfortunately, deaths have crept up from single and low double digits (20's) throughout the summer to around 150 per day now.

The big difference is that a second wave was expected, just a matter of time.  The Italians have a plan and are following it.  Should the situation get critical, more measures will be taken.  I don't expect full lockdowns that were needed as with the surprise first wave.  Looking around town and elsewhere 90% of folks are wearing masks and taking precautions.  Yes, cinemas have been closed, restaurants and bars close at 6 pm now, schools are adjusting schedules.  The most drastic measure is curfews to try and keep the young crowd from gathering in piazzas and parks in the evenings which is part of the social culture.  Some small protests about that in the larger cities.

I wouldn't consider this a failure by any measure.  Three months of very low deaths after lockdowns were lifted is a great achievement.  952 deaths in three months.  To put it into perspective, how many deaths in the US from the beginning of July through the end of September?  80,000 sound about right?  That is a huge difference.  I still chalk that up to mismanagement and lack of leadership.  Europe pretty much started the second wave at zero whereas the US is starting from already very high numbers of infections and deaths.

This is the beginning of the second wave with 6-9 months to go before mass vaccinations are underway and begin having an effect. The flu season is beginning, a lot of folks are standing in line to vote,  Trump will hold a few more superspreader events, Thanksgiving and Christmas are rapidly approaching.

Let's see how things are looking towards the end of the year Gator before drawing broad conclusions about the efficacy of mitigation measures.  It is going to be a tough time on both sides of the Atlantic.  There will be no winner, only those that have lost less.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 27, 2020, 05:41:28 AM

Let's see how things are looking towards the end of the year Gator before drawing broad conclusions about the efficacy of mitigation measures. 


Again, BC you are focusing on too short of a time frame for a pandemic.  12-18 months from now the whole story may be told, provided we have administered effective vaccines en masse.  Probably even longer in the less developed nations.     


Do not forget a key second part of the whole story will be how the economy recovers, which strongly affects the quality of life of the 99.9% who did not die.  


Quote
It is going to be a tough time on both sides of the Atlantic.  There will be no winner, only those that have lost less.

Measured in terms of deaths, lost jobs and other suffering. 

When all suffering and damages have been counted, we will understand this viral agent from China exacted a shockingly huge toll around the globe.  That's the important story, not just the story of fighting outbreaks along the way. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on October 27, 2020, 05:50:41 AM
I fully support changing our lives and learning to live with the virus. Cancelling our lives only means we sacrifice others in different ways.

Likely the sanest statement in this thread.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 27, 2020, 06:35:58 AM
Again, BC you are focusing on too short of a time frame for a pandemic.  12-18 months from now the whole story may be told, provided we have administered effective vaccines en masse.  Probably even longer in the less developed nations. 

My reply was in response to your statement "We now see such claims of mismanagement were unwarranted."   Of course, we'll know more a few months down the road, and as you stated, certainly much more during and after the 12-18 month timeframe you mentioned.


Quote
Do not forget a key second part of the whole story will be how the economy recovers, which strongly affects the quality of life of the 99.9% who did not die.  

Quote
Measured in terms of deaths, lost jobs and other suffering. 

Economies will recover, some faster, some slower when this calamity is over.  I am more worried about how the common men and women fare.  My major concern is with fellow citizens and residents back home that do not have access to the wider social safety net and healthcare benefits of most folks overseas.  At least the vast majority over here won't fear medical bills, lack of food, or a roof over their head.

It will be a huge challenge for all of us no matter where we live.

Quote
When all suffering and damages have been counted, we will understand this viral agent from China exacted a shockingly huge toll around the globe.  That's the important story, not just the story of fighting outbreaks along the way.

Keep in mind the next pandemic can come from anywhere on the planet. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on October 27, 2020, 11:39:05 AM
The USA is the only country [I know of] where blame is practically placed on it's leader for the pandemic....Try doing that in China (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/undecided.gif)


Your federal government, unlike other governments worldwide, downplayed the seriousness of COVID-19, and your Secretary of Health refused to listen to experts, or give them the funding they requested, at the very beginning of the pandemic.  That is what is criticized.


Our government was criticized as well, for not closing the borders quickly enough and not taking more proactive action immediately.  That is being investigated currently.  However, most of our response is controlled at the provincial, rather than the federal level.


China was, in fact, criticized.  Of course, internal criticism was punished, but it certainly was criticized outside the country.  However, the first cluster of COVID cases were examined in Wuhan on December 12.  On January 5, China reported a new virus to the World Health Organization, on January 3, Chinese epidemiologists ruled out the possibility of the virus being something already known.  On January 22, WHO officials discovered there was human to human transmission of the virus, and on January 23, Wuhan was put into quarantine by the Chinese government.


I think China reacted very quickly to the virus.  Wuhan officials can be criticized, though, for charging physicians who reported on a new illness on social media, with distributing rumours.


This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on October 27, 2020, 01:40:49 PM
Your federal government, unlike other governments worldwide, downplayed the seriousness of COVID-19, and your Secretary of Health refused to listen to experts, or give them the funding they requested, at the very beginning of the pandemic.  That is what is criticized.





People were almost killing each other over toilet paper. I think Trump said enough about the virus, maybe too much. We spent so much money mobilizing against the virus that China and WHO downplayed it's not funny. We also increased the contributions to the IMF to help other nations with their virus problems.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 27, 2020, 03:20:29 PM
I would think the president of the United States, CIC of the most powerful military in the world, with powers of the Defense Production Act of 1950 could easily guarantee the supply of toilet paper.

The guarantee of supplies and grocery goods was one of the first official acts of the government here when the crisis began.

It's that simple.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on October 27, 2020, 03:43:02 PM



Our government made sure food, PPE, ventilators and other things that involve life and death increased in production. Toilet paper, vitamin shortages, hand sanitizer and a few other little things ran out because people panicked from the little info they got about the virus. Now they criticize Trump for not saying enough about it. Lol.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 27, 2020, 04:49:42 PM
My major concern is with fellow citizens and residents back home that do not have access to the wider social safety net and healthcare benefits of most folks overseas.  At least the vast majority over here won't fear medical bills, lack of food, or a roof over their head.

I have seen few news stories about food and healthcare, e. g., one showing a long line for a food bank.  Considering the liberal tone of the news media, if there were a story of people suffering, it would be broadcast again and again. 

Some people who became unemployed because of the lockdown are behind in rent or mortgage payments.  Part of the early Congressional relief legislation halted evictions, however.  That will not continue forever. 

In summary, your concern has not materialized, yet. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on October 27, 2020, 06:26:10 PM



Mother of virologist whistleblower who fled China arrested. She's guilty by relation!


http://www.newsbreak.com/news/2077100087844/mother-of-virologist-dr-li-meng-yan-who-alleged-covid-19-was-made-in-chinese-lab-arrested-by-beijing-authorities
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 28, 2020, 06:47:55 AM

Your federal government, unlike other governments worldwide, downplayed the seriousness of COVID-19, and your Secretary of Health refused to listen to experts, or give them the funding they requested, at the very beginning of the pandemic.  That is what is criticized.

America's  largest problem in the beginning of the pandemic was inadequate testing by CDC.   What are other specific criticisms of Secretary Azar's Department? 


Quote
Our government was criticized as well, for not closing the borders quickly enough and not taking more proactive action immediately.  That is being investigated currently.  However, most of our response is controlled at the provincial, rather than the federal level.

The same in the US.  Public health is primarily a responsibility of state and local governments,  hence showing Secretary Azar had small influence.   While Trump was restricting travel from China, some states such as New York were defying his actions at their end.    How effective was the local government primacy in New York?


Quote
I think China reacted very quickly to the virus. 

Yes, and harshly.  The quarantine was total, much stricter than anything the West would undertake.  Would it have been acceptable to quarantine and lockdown Seattle?  New York City?   

Evidently, China knew something it was not sharing with the world, e. g., China  prohibited domestic  travel from Wuhan, but not international travel.     

What did China know and not share promptly with the world, other than sharing the virus?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on October 28, 2020, 07:04:21 AM

Yes, and harshly.  The quarantine was total, much stricter than anything the West would undertake.  Would it have been acceptable to quarantine and lockdown Seattle?  New York City?   

Evidently, China knew something it was not sharing with the world, e. g., China  prohibited domestic  travel from Wuhan, but not international travel.     

What did China know and not share promptly with the world, other than sharing the virus?
wah wah wah, it is china's fault!    More blame shifting.  The fact is, China has handled the virus better than Trump/US.   Very hard for you and others to admit obviously.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 28, 2020, 07:56:22 AM
WAVE OF BAD NEWS

The pandemic surge in Europe is compelling speculation that  nations such as France will be enacting very stringent restrictions such as closing borders for 2, 3 weeks, maybe longer.  The US is about three weeks behind Europe.   It appears we are entering  the most challenging period of this pandemic. 

Meanwhile, the US Fed has stated it is running out of ammo to combat a slowdown.  The Fed stressed Congress needs to give some fiscal relief to prompt consumer spending.  Ignoring the Fed,  Congress left DC without passing a stimulus/relief bill because the Democrats insist (over objections of Republicans) non-COVID funding be included. 

Resurgence of the pandemic....possibility of economic lockdowns....Fed concern.......no relief bill....market selloff.  How long will it continue?  How deep will it go? 

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on October 28, 2020, 08:09:02 AM



I'm glad Trump cut funding to WHO. They were just a sounding board for China's lies. In January China was telling everyone the virus isn't human to human transferable when they were quarantining tens of millions of people and building hospitals in record time. Go figure. Trump took early action and people were dumbfounded why he banned travel when they were trusting China and WHO.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 28, 2020, 09:44:50 AM
Our government made sure food, PPE, ventilators and other things that involve life and death increased in production. Toilet paper, vitamin shortages, hand sanitizer and a few other little things ran out because people panicked from the little info they got about the virus. Now they criticize Trump for not saying enough about it. Lol.

Many were trying to profit, buying TP and other items in bulk to turn a buck or three hundred...  That's what scared the public.  Crowd dynamics and loss of confidence.  It is up to our leaders to maintain confidence that a crisis can be overcome.  Part of that is guaranteeing the supply and availability of necessary goods and services.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on October 28, 2020, 11:09:00 AM
The Italians have a plan and are following it.

But their plan hasn't worked and isn't working. Italians are still getting sick at
record numbers and they've had some of the most restrictive measures. There
would be a world wide economic depression if the USA did what Italy did and it
wouldn't even be constitutionally possible.

Italy
Coronavirus Cases: 589,766
Deaths: 37,905 x 5.52 = 209,236
Recovered: 275,404
Population 60 million


USA
Coronavirus Cases: 9,070,847
Deaths: 232,541
Recovered: 5,893,662<<<<<<<<<< WTF?!?!
The USA should have had ONLY 1.5 million people recover!
How did this happen with Trump trying to kill everybody???
How did this happen? With Trump's gross mismanagement
compared with Italy's totalitarian government management?

Population 331 million (5.52 times more than 60 million)

Protesters clash with police in northern Italy as anger mounts over Covid-19 restrictions
http://www.cnn.com/2020/10/27/europe/italy-coronavirus-protests-intl/index.html

Photo of clash with police link (too big for page)
http://tinyurl.com/yxk5ffqn

another photo
http://idsb.tmgrup.com.tr/ly/uploads/images/2020/10/25/67407.jpg
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 28, 2020, 12:12:56 PM
Many were trying to profit, buying TP and other items in bulk to turn a buck or three hundred...  That's what scared the public.  Crowd dynamics and loss of confidence.  It is up to our leaders to maintain confidence that a crisis can be overcome. Part of that is guaranteeing the supply and availability of necessary goods and services.

BC,

A month ago you criticized Trump for playing the virus down so as not to create a panic.  Now you criticize Trump for not making the public feel more optimistic. 

This reeks of hypocrisy. 

Do you recall the gasoline shortages during the 1979 oil crises?  It was caused less by curtailment of Iranian supplies, but more  by panicking Americans who normally drive with less than half a tank deciding to fill their tanks at every opportunity.   Our declining gasoline supply lines  suddenly had to produce an additional 1.5 billion gallons to store an additional 10 gallons in 150 million cars.  The continuing ripple effect was crazy. 

In the case of toilet paper, unlike fuel tanks, people's closets could store not just twice their normal number of rolls but 10x if not more.  Remember the TP shortage started in Democrat California. 

BTW, everyone had TP; no asses went unwiped. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 28, 2020, 12:47:05 PM
Gator,

Telling the truth about the severity of the crisis, and reassuring folks that supplies will continue to be delivered to stores unhindered along with guaranteeing prices at current levels is not hypocrisy.  It is exactly what was done here when the first store shelves were reported empty.  Except for hand sanitizer (a worldwide issue at the time) and masks (only needed when out shopping and bare necessities during the lockdown), other supplies and grocery items were always available.

Undue optimism and assurances that build confidence are two distinctly different beasts.

Now more is being reported about Trump's actions back then, about the time Fauci and Birx took the back seat, letting Trump run the nightly TV 'show'.

Quote
The last thing was kind of doing the guidelines, which was interesting. And that in my mind was almost like – you know, it was almost like Trump getting the country back from the doctors. Right? In the sense that what he now did was, you know, he’s going to own the open-up.

There were three phases. There’s the panic phase, the pain phase and then the comeback phase. I do believe that last night symbolized kind of the beginning of the comeback phase. That doesn’t mean there’s not still a lot of pain and there won’t be pain for a while, but that basically was, we’ve now put out rules to get back to work. Trump’s now back in charge. It’s not the doctors. They’ve kind of – we have, like, a negotiated settlement.
Kushner

According to Fauci, Trump hasn't even attended their meetings on the virus for a couple of months.


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 28, 2020, 01:04:39 PM
But their plan hasn't worked and isn't working. Italians are still getting sick at
record numbers and they've had some of the most restrictive measures. There
would be a world wide economic depression if the USA did what Italy did and it
wouldn't even be constitutionally possible.


Suggest you read my prior posts 2Tall.  During the period 1 July through end of September Italy had around a thousand deaths.  The US had 80,000.  The expected second wave is upon us here.  The US lags a couple of weeks or so. 

As Gator stated, more conclusions about mitigation efficacy and economic impact can be drawn down the road.  IMO much of the economic impact is yet to come.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on October 28, 2020, 01:14:03 PM
Many were trying to profit, buying TP and other items in bulk to turn a buck or three hundred...  That's what scared the public.  Crowd dynamics and loss of confidence.  It is up to our leaders to maintain confidence that a crisis can be overcome.  Part of that is guaranteeing the supply and availability of necessary goods and services.


Again, you don't like Trump so much, you forget anything he does good. The feds were banning exports of PPE. They were going after people who were hoarding and price gouging. As far as toilet paper shortages go, it wasn't as bad as people think since napkins and paper towels replaced toilet paper. If people truly didn't have anything to wipe their butt, you would see a spike in ass rashes.


http://www.mysuncoast.com/2020/03/27/feds-states-crack-down-price-gouging-hoarding-coronavirus-supplies/ (http://www.mysuncoast.com/2020/03/27/feds-states-crack-down-price-gouging-hoarding-coronavirus-supplies/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 28, 2020, 01:16:20 PM

According to Fauci, Trump hasn't even attended their meetings on the virus for a couple of months.

Evidently Macron, Merkel, and other Euro leaders stopped meeting too.   Or otherwise they would have heeded the advice of their health scientists, thus preventing the resurgence.   

Or maybe the world has been beset by a pandemic that will exact a toll from every nation and will not attenuate in the near future without a vaccine or a Chinese lockdown. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on October 28, 2020, 01:23:58 PM



The Democrats claim Trump didn't warn people enough. Here's some stuff I posted back in April to show Democrats and liberal media not taking it serioiusly. Biden has his experts telling him about the virus and no once did Biden notify the American people it's worse than what Trump has been saying.

Trump's State Department put out a warning to Americans visiting China January 15 and later enacted travel restrictions.

http://www.physiciansweekly.com/u-s-warns-citizens-in (http://www.physiciansweekly.com/u-s-warns-citizens-in/)





January 14 - the WHO (World Health Organization) sent out a tweet declaring that there is no evidence of human-to-human transmission of the COVID-19 virus.

January 23 - Vox - "The evidence on travel bans for diseases like Coronavirus is clear: They don't work"

January 24 - Dr. Anthony Fauci National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) Director reported:
• Covid 19 It isn't something the American public needs to worry about or be frightened about, because we have ways of preparing and screening of.
• It's a very, very low risk to the United States, but it's something that we as public health officials need to take very seriously.
• However, Joe Scarborough and wife Minka had a segment where they said "no Americans need to be concerned about COVID-19 and should be more concerned about the common flu.

January 26: Fauci says Coronavirus is a very low risk to our country

January 27: Pelosi proposes legislation to bar the President from closing border

January 28: Business Insider - "flu is a far bigger threat to most people in the US than the Wuhan coronavirus"

January 29: LA Times - "The new coronavirus isn't a threat to people in the United States - but the flu is"

January 29: Joe Biden in a speech in Iowa said that Trump's idea of restricting travel from China was "Xenophobic".

January 30: WHO calls corona virus a healthcare emergency.

January 31: TRUMP CLOSES OUR BORDER to foreign nationals who had recently visited China.

• WHO recommends against closing the border.
• Democrats attack Trump as racist and xenophobic
• NYT quotes an epidemiologist as saying that Trump's decision to restrict travel from China was "more of an emotional or political reaction."
• WaPo quotes a Chinese official asking for "empathy" and slamming the White House for acting "in disregard of WHO recommendation against travel restrictions."
• Vox tweets: "Is this going to be a deadly pandemic? No." (Tweet deleted weeks later).

February 1: Washington Post - "Get a grip, America. The flu is a much bigger threat than coronavirus, for now." New York Times - "Beware the Pandemic Panic - (used to justify unnecessarily severe limits on movement and civil liberties)"

February 2: TRUMP IMPOSES QUARANTINE on American travelers who recently visited China

• WHO says virus can be easily controlled
• CNN tweets a joke to downplay threat posed by Coronavirus: "There's a virus that has infected 15 millionAmericans across the country and killed more than 8,200 people this season alone. It's not a new pandemic — it's influenza."
• NYC Health Commissioner Barbot tweets: “As we gear up to celebrate the #LunarNewYear in NYC, I want to assure New Yorkers that there is no reason for anyone to change their holiday plans, avoid the subway, or certain parts of the city because of #coronavirus."
• New York City Health Commissioner Dr. Oxiris Barbot, “The risk to New Yorkers for Coronavirus is low and our preparedness as a city is very high. There is no reason not to take the subway, not to take the bus, not to go out to your favorite restaurant, and certainly not to miss the parade next Sunday. I’m going to be there.”

February 4: Politico - "Coronavirus quarantine, travel ban could backfire, experts fear"

February 7: Health Commissioner Barbot says "We’re telling New Yorkers, go about your lives, take the subway, go out, enjoy life."

February 9: The chair of NYC Health Committee tweets: "In powerful show of defiance of #coronavirus scare, huge crowds gathering in NYC's Chinatown for ceremony ahead of annual #LunarNewYear parade. Chants of 'be strong Wuhan!' If you are staying away, you are missing out!"

February 11: Biden, through his adviser, says the evidence "suggests" the coronavirus won't be a "serious pandemic."

February 13: DeBlasio's office tweets "There are ZERO confirmed cases of coronavirus in New York City, and hundreds of Chinese restaurants that need your business! There is nothing to fear. Stop by any Chinatown for lunch or dinner!"

• De Blasio tweets "It was my honor to spend time with our Asian-American owned small businesses in Flushing today. This vibrant community is standing strong but they need YOUR support. Our Chinatowns are open for business — make some dinner plans, do some shopping and stand with our neighbors!"
• Biden, through his advisor, praises de Blasio: "We don’t have a #COVIDー19 epidemic in the US but we are starting to see a fear epidemic. Kudos to @NYCMayor (and others) for standing against that."

February 17: Fauci says risk of coronavirus infection in U.S. is "miniscule” and people shouldn't wear masks unless they are contagious.

February 24: Nancy Pelosi says from San Francisco's China Town to come visit, it is safe and "there are no Coronavirus concerns". Then SF became one of the epicenters of the disease.

February 28: CDC RECOMMENDS SOCIAL DISTANCING

February 29: Fauci says risk is low and people can continue day-to-day routines re malls, movies

[size=0.85em][/r]
[/size][/b]
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 28, 2020, 02:37:59 PM


The Democrats claim Trump didn't warn people enough. Here's some stuff I posted back in April to show Democrats and liberal media not taking it serioiusly. Biden has his experts telling him about the virus and no once did Biden notify the American people it's worse than what Trump has been saying.


BillyB,  I recall your post.  Still valuable months later.  Don't upset the anti-Trumpers with such a factual timeline.  They despise facts; facts get in the way of their anti-Trump narrative.

Makes one wonder what Biden would have done differently other than just what Trump did except later.   One key difference - Biden would have done his best to have longer and stricter lockdowns, maybe doing permanent damage to the economy.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on October 28, 2020, 02:58:31 PM



Here's one more. On January 24 Trump administration called on the full Senate to brief them about this new virus. He thought it was that important. Only 14 Senators showed up. The others busy with more important things like impeachment. Senators, Democrat and Republican who attended the briefing thanked the administration with this statement.


“We are monitoring the outbreak of a novel coronavirus closely and are in close communication with United States government agencies on actions and precautions needed to prevent further spread of this virus,” said the senators. “The safety of U.S. citizens here domestically, as well as in China and other affected countries, is our first priority. The Chinese government has taken steps to share information with international health experts, and we encourage their cooperation and transparency as this situation unfolds. We thank administration officials for providing us with an update on this important issue, and for detailing their efforts to protect the American public. We will continue to work closely with administration officials to ensure the United States is prepared to respond.”

http://www.help.senate.gov/ranking/newsroom/press/help-and-sfrc-leadership-statement-on-novel-coronavirus-outbreak-briefing (http://www.help.senate.gov/ranking/newsroom/press/help-and-sfrc-leadership-statement-on-novel-coronavirus-outbreak-briefing)

Trump wasn't hiding anything from politicians and the politicians promised to work closely with Trump on this for our benefit. They all were educated about the virus's behavior unless they didn't want to be educated about it. NOBODY said "Hit the brakes! We're about to rear end the car in front of us!" which tells me they were satisfied with the amount of information Trump gave to the public and his handling of it. My old posts were telling people not to be upset we're being lied to, it's only done to prevent panic and keep people from hoarding the PPE so medical personnel will have what they need. Case fatality rate in America is currently 4%. If Trump told Americans one out of every 25 people who get the virus will die, it will create mass panic, violence and death and the Democrats would blame Trump for mishandling the pandemic when causing additional deaths.


http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ (http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on October 28, 2020, 05:46:57 PM
Do you recall the gasoline shortages during the 1979 oil crises?  It was caused less by
curtailment of Iranian supplies, but more  by panicking Americans who normally drive
with less than half a tank deciding to fill their tanks at every opportunity.   

Our declining gasoline supply lines  suddenly had to produce an additional 1.5 billion
gallons to store an additional 10 gallons in 150 million cars.  The continuing ripple effect
was crazy. 

The gasoline shortages of the 1970's was caused by Nixon and Carters price
controls on gas and nearly unrelated to the Iranian situation.

Read about it here
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2007-06-07-0706061080-story.html

And here
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/remembering-nixons-wage-price-controls

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on October 28, 2020, 05:59:02 PM
Suggest you read my prior posts 2Tall.

You've been pretty consistent.

"Orange man is bad, he made people sick and die."

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 28, 2020, 06:39:16 PM
The gasoline shortages of the 1970's was caused by Nixon and Carters price
controls on gas and nearly unrelated to the Iranian situation.

Read about it here
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2007-06-07-0706061080-story.html

And here
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/remembering-nixons-wage-price-controls

Unlike you I was not in elementary school in the 1970s.  The US experienced a series of gas shortages in the 1970s.  Let me digress to discuss the earlier shortages (or price shocks),  particularly those stemming from the Arab oil embargo of 1973-74.  And yes, US government instituted price controls and mandated other ridiculous remedies such as a Federal mandated speed limit of 55MPH. 

The Arabs later looked back and realized how the 1973 embargo was a huge failure - it violated Rule 101 of Resource Management - keep prices lower than alternative supplies. One benefit to the US of the embargo  was compelling the US to reexamine its dependence on Middle East oil.  Oil production and energy conservation increased in the US, eventually reaching energy independence under Trump. 
     
Now to my post.  Please note I wrote the year 1979 in my post.  I remember it well as I had just left from a UN consulting job in Iran and returned to the US only to soon queue for gas.  Why don't you look 1979 up and get back to me.   

BTW, my post was about panic buying by the public. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 29, 2020, 01:50:26 AM
BillyB,  I recall your post.  Still valuable months later.  Don't upset the anti-Trumpers with such a factual timeline.  They despise facts; facts get in the way of their anti-Trump narrative.

Makes one wonder what Biden would have done differently other than just what Trump did except later.   One key difference - Biden would have done his best to have longer and stricter lockdowns, maybe doing permanent damage to the economy.

Gator,

You speak as if our president has nothing to say, cannot corral congressional and state leaders to take unified action, is powerless to appeal to the population to take prudent measures.  What was Trump saying during the exact same period reflected in BillyB's post?  Should we not take what a president says seriously?

The ONLY consistent message from Trump since January until today has been 'it's going to go away', and is an established 'Factual Timeline'.  Well, it hasn't gone away and will be around for some time to come.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 29, 2020, 02:20:51 AM
Evidently Macron, Merkel, and other Euro leaders stopped meeting too.   Or otherwise they would have heeded the advice of their health scientists, thus preventing the resurgence.   

Or maybe the world has been beset by a pandemic that will exact a toll from every nation and will not attenuate in the near future without a vaccine or a Chinese lockdown.

I highly doubt they stopped meeting or listening to 'the doctors' and scientists.  At least no reports thereof.

Sure it will exact a toll, but one that can be attenuated.  A second wave was expected and is being dealt with accordingly.  We'll just have to see what works and what does not work this time 'round, hoping it works as well as or better than last time without requiring more stringent national lockdowns and overburdening the healthcare system.  But heck, even if we do need to have national lockdowns to keep things in check, we at least know how to do it, know it works and that the economy will recover over time.  Dead fathers, mothers, and children can't. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on October 29, 2020, 05:14:20 AM
Listen to science....

:ROFL:

Louder with Crowder

http://youtu.be/HF850LL08QU

Some likely even believe the toll the UK suffered from COVID can be blamed to the fact Trump was in the UK at one point. Yes, that must be it. Breathe some fresh air folks.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on October 29, 2020, 05:16:15 AM
LMAO! Bill and his long-winded links are at it again...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 29, 2020, 05:45:49 AM

You speak as if our president has nothing to say, cannot corral congressional and state leaders to take unified action....

You have lost your mind if you think Democrat leaders anywhere will listen to Trump.  If you did not notice, on Day One (Day minus 365), Democrats started a broad based movement to resist anything and  everything Trump attempts to do.   One exception, New York did accept Federal help (hospitals, respirators, etc.) only to not use it, resulting in more deaths. 



Quote
...is powerless to appeal to the population to take prudent measures.  What was Trump saying during the exact same period reflected in BillyB's post?
 

Who says it was not a ploy to save Democrats, knowing they would do the opposite.    ;)



Quote
Should we not take what a president says seriously?


Personally BC, I don't believe you would ever listen to Trump other than to find something to criticize.  And there are closed-mind millions just like you



Quote
The ONLY consistent message from Trump since January until today has been 'it's going to go away', and is an established 'Factual Timeline'.  Well, it hasn't gone away and will be around for some time to come.

We are approaching the peak of the pandemic, and afterwards it will go away with the forthcoming vaccines. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 29, 2020, 05:49:57 AM
But heck, even if we do need to have national lockdowns to keep things in check, we at least know how to do it, know it works and that the economy will recover over time.

Economic recovery will take longer in Europe because you will start from a deeper hole. 


I predict we will be able to make a final accounting of all issues not until the end of 2021, start of 2022. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 29, 2020, 05:56:55 AM
What did I say about economic recovery?


BREAKING NEWS:  US THIRD QUARTER GDP HAD A THITD QUARTER BLOWOUT NUMBER OF 33.1%.
 
 :applause: :applause:     (directed at ourselves, Democrats and Republicans)


33.1% 

Now let's see if the news media reports this!!!!!

Let's hope that Pelosi agrees to a stimulus/relief bill to continue this trend. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on October 29, 2020, 06:40:41 AM
What did I say about economic recovery?


BREAKING NEWS:  US THIRD QUARTER GDP HAD A THITD QUARTER BLOWOUT NUMBER OF 33.1%.
 
 :applause: :applause:     (directed at ourselves, Democrats and Republicans)


33.1% 

Now let's see if the news media reports this!!!!!

Let's hope that Pelosi agrees to a stimulus/relief bill to continue this trend.
This was  expected and the market has opened down today.   The economy shrunk by the same number the quarter before.  Overall the economy has obviously shrunk in comparison to the year before.  Our deficit with China has hit a record high, so all the talk about tariffs and making china pay has completely failed.      Overall we don't need to pretend things are rosy.   
Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on October 29, 2020, 06:51:07 AM



Democrats were unified and spoke out against Trump loud and clear from day 1. They own the media and had them push made stories on him. If they thought Trump wasn't warning the American people properly when downplaying it on purpose, they could run their mouths to say so and take responsibility for the panic they will cause. They don't have to wait for Trump to unify them. They never did. If one blames Trump for not saying enough, they need to blame the Democratic leadership for not saying enough. They have access to all the infectious disease experts Trump has access to.




Our deficit with China has hit a record high, so all the talk about tariffs and making china pay has completely failed.



That may be what fake news wants to convey now but Trump's trade war without a pandemic involved shrunk our trade deficit with China last year forcing China to sign a phase 1 trade deal this year.


http://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/05/us-trade-deficit-december-2019.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2020/02/05/us-trade-deficit-december-2019.html)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 29, 2020, 03:19:10 PM
I feel I may not be long for this place, so I will start getting things off my chest.

So I read a FT post. 

This was  expected and the market has opened down today.


For your family's sake, I hope you are not making your own decisions about investments.   The market opened down because of COVID, Euro lockdowns, and no stimulus bill.   Then what happened?


Quote
The economy shrunk by the same number the quarter before. 

Yes, April, May and June suffered from the lockdowns.  Today's economic news show this economy wants to grow, but we need a stimulus bill.
 

Quote
Overall the economy has obviously shrunk in comparison to the year before. 

Such happens when beset by a pandemic and economic lockdown, and your point is what?



Quote
Our deficit with China has hit a record high, so all the talk about tariffs and making china pay has completely failed.


For decades China's unfair trade practices have been unchecked by the likes of Obama-Biden, Bush, Clinton and Wall Street and Corporate America.  You expected China to roll over?  China trade has huge momentum, and we will continue to buy Chinese products because they sell cheaper mousetraps.  There is much more to this threat than trade.  We must chip away and for sure not become beholden to them. 

So what do you believe we should do?   


Lots on negative thoughts , FT.  Let's see how do you end your post.


Quote
Overall we don't need to pretend things are rosy.   
 

Sad! 

Yes, the world got hit, and hit hard.   We are still vulnerable.    However, life is getting better, and will get better and better starting after this upcoming acute and final wave of the pandemic.   We need vaccines, and they are coming.   

This talk of "Life is a shit sandwich, and then you die"  is not me.  Never has been, even in downtimes.  Put a smile on your face and confront the challenges.....with a good plan. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on October 29, 2020, 07:19:41 PM
BC-

Is this true? What happened to the disciplined, unselfish talk, unlike Americans yabadabadoo jab?

http://youtu.be/s6X8tTERGWM

We have riots and looting here too but those are by silly snowflakes and idiots trying to help Biden’s election out.

Economically, WSJ reported today we sustained 3.6% contraction where Italy is over 10%!!!! The rest of Europe are not as bad, but not that much better either.

Anyway, I hope things change for you guys over there.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on October 29, 2020, 07:49:28 PM
I feel I may not be long for this place, so I will start getting things off my chest.

So I read a FT post. 
 

For your family's sake, I hope you are not making your own decisions about investments.   The market opened down because of COVID, Euro lockdowns, and no stimulus bill.   Then what happened?
fully invested in the US...aside from property abroad. 


Yes, April, May and June suffered from the lockdowns.  Today's economic news show this economy wants to grow, but we need a stimulus bill.
 
Yes stimulus may be needed but at what cost?  How does that substitute for actually working harder?  We are supposed to be an 'exceptional' people. 


For decades China's unfair trade practices have been unchecked by the likes of Obama-Biden, Bush, Clinton and Wall Street and Corporate America.  You expected China to roll over?  China trade has huge momentum, and we will continue to buy Chinese products because they sell cheaper mousetraps.  There is much more to this threat than trade.  We must chip away and for sure not become beholden to them. 

So what do you believe we should do?   
Outwork them if we expect to be the 'exceptional' Problem is we can't outwork them, because many of the people here are too entitled, old, drugged up, or unwilling to work.    What we need is a younger and opportunity hungry population, but our people don't create children any longer so we need more immigration....but many in the GOP don't want more immigration because the people that immigrate are browner than in the past. 

This talk of "Life is a shit sandwich, and then you die"  is not me.  Never has been, even in downtimes.  Put a smile on your face and confront the challenges.....with a good plan. 
I'd say you are misjudging yourself, you are not putting a smile on any faces including your own,  and your version of confronting problems is by trying to force change on others rather than looking at the internal changes that could be made here in the US.  A good plan of trying to make everyone conform to what you think is 'fair' isn't going to fly nowadays, unless it actually is fair.  We in the US are no longer in position to dictate policy to the world. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on October 29, 2020, 09:02:58 PM
I feel I may not be long for this place, so I will start getting things off my chest.

So I read a FT post. 
 

For your family's sake, I hope you are not making your own decisions about investments.   The market opened down because of COVID, Euro lockdowns, and no stimulus bill.   Then what happened?


Yes, April, May and June suffered from the lockdowns.  Today's economic news show this economy wants to grow, but we need a stimulus bill.
 

Such happens when beset by a pandemic and economic lockdown, and your point is what?




For decades China's unfair trade practices have been unchecked by the likes of Obama-Biden, Bush, Clinton and Wall Street and Corporate America.  You expected China to roll over?  China trade has huge momentum, and we will continue to buy Chinese products because they sell cheaper mousetraps.  There is much more to this threat than trade.  We must chip away and for sure not become beholden to them. 

So what do you believe we should do?   


Lots on negative thoughts , FT.  Let's see how do you end your post.

 

Sad! 

Yes, the world got hit, and hit hard.   We are still vulnerable.    However, life is getting better, and will get better and better starting after this upcoming acute and final wave of the pandemic.   We need vaccines, and they are coming.   

This talk of "Life is a shit sandwich, and then you die"  is not me.  Never has been, even in downtimes.  Put a smile on your face and confront the challenges.....with a good plan.

Well said Gator!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 29, 2020, 09:20:00 PM
BC-

Is this true? What happened to the disciplined, unselfish talk, unlike Americans yabadabadoo jab?

We have riots and looting here too but those are by silly snowflakes and idiots trying to help Biden’s election out.

Economically, WSJ reported today we sustained 3.6% contraction where Italy is over 10%!!!! The rest of Europe are not as bad, but not that much better either.

Anyway, I hope things change for you guys over there.

Thanks, GQ.

Tourism represents 13% of GDP here, and of course, that sector has taken the worst hit during the crisis.  Yes, as mentioned before, kids are not happy with lockdowns and curfews. Fortunately, the damage is limited to dumpster fires, a few smashed store windows, and a maybe few bruises here and there if even that.  Small scale hooliganism.  Looting is quite rare even when things get bad.  When it comes to rioting, 'Bad' over here is when folks start burning and turning over cars and such.  Someone getting killed is very rare, although a dozen or so were killed in prison riots early this year when visitors were banned.

Unfortunately, it seems we're headed towards a more full, national lockdown until things get under control again.  May sound dramatic but 'better earlier than later', is one of the lessons learned earlier this year. Testing is being increased to 300,000 per day which will result in more infections reported, but that's good since the isolation of positive cases is enforced with rather severe fines for violations.  Compliance is good.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 30, 2020, 09:13:28 AM
Quick email conversation with a business acquaintance in KC.  Wished him a great, covid free weekend.

His response:  "Lol – I live in Missouri, we don’t really believe in Covid :)"
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 30, 2020, 09:28:59 AM
"Lol – I live in Missouri, we don’t really believe in Covid :)"

COVID-19 is not as frightening as BIDEN-20.   ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on October 30, 2020, 09:33:41 AM

Yes stimulus may be needed but at what cost?   

Careful, this mentality will have you voting Republican. 

Quote
....but many in the GOP don't want more immigration because the people that immigrate are browner than in the past.

Not many, but a few supremacists.    And they don't participate in GOP strategic planning.   Not knowing any supremacists, I don't even know if they vote.  They seem to  prefer to spend their time on ideas such as "Let's kidnap the Governor." 

BTW, I see brown and black immigrants every day.  Hard working, serious people. 


Quote
I'd say you are misjudging yourself, you are not putting a smile on any faces including your own,



Typical FT as I recall from years ago.  This suggests you know me.  You don't. 

Quote
and your version of confronting problems is by trying to force change on others rather than looking at the internal changes that could be made here in the US.  A good plan of trying to make everyone conform to what you think is 'fair' isn't going to fly nowadays, unless it actually is fair.  We in the US are no longer in position to dictate policy to the world. 

Typical FT as I recall -  gibberish (incoherent, meandering).  Where was "angry?"
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on October 30, 2020, 09:44:28 AM
COVID-19 is not as frightening as BIDEN-20.   ;)

:)

maybe it'll pleasantly surprise you, given a chance.

I'm yearning for a few days of 'normal' and hope next week passes quickly, decisively, and without incident.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on October 30, 2020, 10:04:34 AM
COVID-19 is not as frightening as BIDEN-20.   ;)

              :shock: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on October 30, 2020, 08:06:23 PM
Careful, this mentality will have you voting Republican. 
I don't think so, I already went though my 'republican phase' and the party no longer represents what I want to see representing the country.


Not many, but a few supremacists.    And they don't participate in GOP strategic planning.   Not knowing any supremacists, I don't even know if they vote.  They seem to  prefer to spend their time on ideas such as "Let's kidnap the Governor." 

BTW, I see brown and black immigrants every day.  Hard working, serious people. 
A lot more than a few supremacists would like to see less immigration from foreign lands where people are browner.  I hear it all the time, but then again I'm in the midst of work life and interacting with dozens of people daily.  Many make the mistake of thinking I'm one of the 'good old boys' because I look like I'm one.    You are really detached from reality, you just don't realize it. 


Typical FT as I recall from years ago.  This suggests you know me.  You don't. 

Typical FT as I recall -  gibberish (incoherent, meandering).  Where was "angry?"
This is where you 'give up' because you can no longer counter the argument with anything sensible.  Reality is you would like to force change onto countries like China without trying to encourage change here first.   It is becoming more difficult for the US to force other countries to do much since we don't have as much dominance in the world as we used to.  Trump is helping our influence decline further, which is one good reason to support him, since our dominance has been abused in recent decades. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on October 31, 2020, 01:32:07 PM



England goes into a second lockdown. PM Boris Johnson worried about the health system collapsing.


The only way to bring down case fatality rates is to make sure our health care systems don't collapse and to do so we need to slow the spread. If we let this virus run its natural course without slowing it down, case fatality rate will go up.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 02, 2020, 06:40:57 AM

ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS NOT COVID HOT SPOTS


The scientific journal Nature reported data from across the globe show  elementary schools are not hot spots for coronavirus infections, as previously feared by many governments.   This is based on  COVID-19 infections not surging when schools and day-care centres reopened after pandemic lockdowns eased. Some outbreaks do occur, yet resulted in only a small number of infections.   

Quote
But even in places where community infections were on the rise, outbreaks in schools were uncommon, particularly when precautions were taken to reduce transmission. More than 65,000 schools in Italy reopened in September, as case numbers were climbing in the community. But only 1,212 campuses had experienced outbreaks four weeks later. In 93% of cases, only one infection was reported, and only one high school had a cluster of more than 10 infected people.

http://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02973-3

It is generally accepted now that the lockdown of schools resulted in more adverse health responses than if they had remained open.  The children also suffered education and social losses.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on November 02, 2020, 09:03:08 AM
It is generally accepted now that the lockdown of schools resulted in more adverse health responses than if they had remained open.

Perhaps true with respect to students.
But what about with respect to teachers ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 02, 2020, 10:03:54 AM
Perhaps true with respect to students.
But what about with respect to teachers ?

Should be okay for those teaching elementary school. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on November 02, 2020, 10:07:45 AM
Should be okay for those teaching elementary school.

As I understand it, those students do catch Covid but have high survival rate.
But they do pass it on to others, such as teachers, who do not have such a survival rate.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on November 02, 2020, 10:09:11 AM
Just heard that one of my male nephews aged around 60 has died of Covid.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 03, 2020, 07:13:52 AM
Just heard that one of my male nephews aged around 60 has died of Covid.

A leaked memo from White House scientist Dr. Brix says "We are entering the most concerning and most deadly phase of this pandemic ... leading to increasing mortality."   Indeed, hospitalizations are increasing, exceeding in 14 states 200 hospitalizations per day per million population (a guideline used in Europe as a threshold for increased mitigation measures). 

Vaccines are coming soon, yet in the interim this last wave is predicted to take a toll before mass immunization.  Individuals surely know what they need to do to protect themselves. 

Smokers know not to smoke tobacco, yet they do.   The difference is cancer and other diseases from smoking typically occur with decades of exposure.  In contrast,  infection with COVID can occur from one exposure in one brief unprotected moment.       
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on November 03, 2020, 08:50:07 AM
Smokers know not to smoke tobacco, yet they do.   The difference is cancer and other diseases from smoking typically occur with decades of exposure.  In contrast,  infection with COVID can occur from one exposure in one brief unprotected moment.     

Yes, wife and I are increasingly worried about how we can avoid Covid.
Must make some shopping trips, even as much can be ordered for delivery.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 09, 2020, 07:24:03 AM
GREAT DAY FOR SCIENCE/HUMANITY

Phase III FDA trials by Pfizer/BioNTech reported its vaccine is more than 90% effective in preventing Covid-19 among those without evidence of prior infection.  90% is much higher than the 60% threshold targeted by policy making scientists such as Dr. Fauci.  In fact, "more than 90%" is in the category of  smallpox and chickenpox vaccines.  Truly great news. 

This vaccine uses the RNA-based platform unlike some other vaccines such as the AstraZeneca candidate now in Phase III trials.  This RNA platform deals not only with COVID-19 and its mutated strains, the results demonstrate the likely ability to be modified to immunize against new viruses.   If true as it seems, this moves the world 100 years ahead in addressing public health threats from viruses. 

Rollout is not simple.  The vaccine requires two doses.  Distribution requires much care because the vaccine must be stored at -80oF.   Production requires highly sophisticated facilities and takes time.  While only 50 million doses are available in 2020, over a billion doses will be ready produced in 2021.   

Just as Trump promised, COVID-19 is going away.   However, we have a difficult six months in front of us. 

There is some bad news today.  Although Pfizer vaccine is 90+% effective for COVID-19, it does not afford immunity to BIDEN-20.   ;)

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Confederate on November 09, 2020, 07:28:28 AM
GREAT DAY FOR SCIENCE/HUMANITY

Phase III FDA trials by Pfizer/BioNTech reported its vaccine is more than 90% effective in preventing Covid-19 among those without evidence of prior infection.  90% is much higher than the 60% threshold targeted by policy making scientists such as Dr. Fauci.  In fact, "more than 90%" is in the category of  smallpox and chickenpox vaccines.  Truly great news. 

This vaccine uses the RNA-based platform unlike some other vaccines such as the AstraZeneca candidate now in Phase III trials.  This RNA platform deals not only with COVID-19 and its mutated strains, the results demonstrate the likely ability to be modified to immunize against new viruses.   If true as it seems, this moves the world 100 years ahead in addressing public health threats from viruses. 

Rollout is not simple.  The vaccine requires two doses.  Distribution requires much care because the vaccine must be stored at -80oF.   Production requires highly sophisticated facilities and takes time.  While only 50 million doses are available in 2020, over a billion doses will be ready produced in 2021.   

Just as Trump promised, COVID-19 is going away.   However, we have a difficult six months in front of us. 

There is some bad news today.  Although Pfizer vaccine is 90+% effective for COVID-19, it does not afford immunity to BIDEN-20.   ;)

 :clapping: :clapping:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 09, 2020, 07:48:30 AM
Can some celebrating tell us if the vaccine can cope with the new strain found in Denmark?

*I* think not and COVID-19 will not be eradicated with this vaccine (

It might mean a new normal. Less deaths, but 'Trampu's' promise is as accurate as mass fraud being perpetrated.

Read the numbers..

Only 1/7th of the population could receive the vaccination and its efficacy will wear off.

It is great news..but let's not get carried away
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 09, 2020, 12:42:33 PM
Can some celebrating tell us if the vaccine can cope with the new strain found in Denmark?

*I* think not.....


You would be thinking correctly if talking about vaccines using platforms such as AstraZeneca's and Russia's.   

Regarding the Pfizer platform, you are WRONG.  Educate yourself by reading about the RNA platform and how it can add slivers to cellular DNA enabling desirable responses from B cells and maybe T cells too.   


Quote
....and COVID-19 will not be eradicated with this vaccine (

Not if people such as you refuse to take it, thus continuing as weak links in the chain of public health.   



Quote
It might mean a new normal. Less deaths, but 'Trampu's' promise is as accurate as mass fraud being perpetrated.

The monster rally seen in the market proves you are WRONG!   It sounds as if you were underweighted in the market, fearing COVID is never going away. 


Quote
Read the numbers..

Totally dishonest.   What numbers? 

BTW, I saw some numbers saying Protestant Irish are dishonest.  If I am mistaken, you are welcome to correct me.  So far all you do is reinforce what I read.     


Quote
Only 1/7th of the population could receive the vaccination and its efficacy will wear off.

It is great news..but let's not get carried away


For those who can not be vaccinated soon, Pfizer will continue to produce doses.  Also, there are other vaccines in the pipeline.  Pfizer just happens to be the first (ignoring those such as Russia who skipped the Phase 3 trials). 


Putting such a bad spin on this news is in the category of Cuomo's intellectual dishonesty.  If you did not know, Cuomo today said the vaccine news is good, but there is  bad news - "it's about two months before Joe Biden takes over and that means this administration will be implementing a vaccine plan."   How's that from the man whose decisions collectively accounted for more COVID deaths than any other executive. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 09, 2020, 01:00:43 PM
These early results are really great and when the vaccine is distributed will greatly reduce transmission.  The open questions at this point are how long the vaccine works and if those that do get infected despite being vaccinated have better survival rates.

Only time will tell.

Regarding new strains, we just don't know yet, but pharma can run computer model simulations to theoretically assess the impact of this newly reported strain in Norway.  In any case, I am confident they can 'tweak' the vaccine as well along the way if necessary. 

I do believe this newly reported strain has to be taken very seriously at this point.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 09, 2020, 01:53:49 PM
The open questions at this point are how long the vaccine works and if those that do get infected despite being vaccinated have better survival rates.

Only time will tell.

There are already some indicative data.   Pfizer's Phase 3 trials dosed 43,538 volunteers including placebos.  So far, a total of 94 of the volunteers subsequently had confirmed Covid-19 infections.   The goal for completing efficacy analysis is to attain 164 infections.  BTW, the volunteers were not informed whether they had received the vaccine or a placebo.   

Safety and additional data continue to be collected, and will be compiled and analyzed for Pfizer's meeting with the FDA's vaccine advisory committee in December.   


Quote
Regarding new strains, we just don't know yet, but pharma can run computer model simulations to theoretically assess the impact of this newly reported strain in Norway.  In any case, I am confident they can 'tweak' the vaccine as well along the way if necessary. 
   

That is the objective of using the messenger RNA platform.    If the vaccine is ineffective against the new strain,  a  different  genetic material may be necessary, yet such is theoretically expected. 


I am surprised the cautious RWD members have not mentioned this fact:  "No mRNA product has ever been approved by regulators."  Source: http://www.statnews.com/2020/11/09/covid-19-vaccine-from-pfizer-and-biontech-is-strongly-effective-early-data-from-large-trial-indicate/

Yes, we are talking about previously unexplored worlds.  Let us see  what evidence Columbus brings from his voyage.

Just think, if this vaccine is an answer, the need for a stimulus bill will wane.   For example, it may preempt the need to rollout a greatly expanded testing program.  And as we return to something approaching normal, relief will not be as necessary. 

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on November 09, 2020, 03:14:44 PM
Phase III FDA trials by Pfizer/BioNTech reported its vaccine is more than 90% effective in preventing Covid-19 among those without evidence of prior infection. 


BioNTech is a German company that was founded by a couple of Turkish Muslims who grew up in Germany. 


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8930359/The-husband-wife-covid-vaccine-change-worl.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8930359/The-husband-wife-covid-vaccine-change-worl.html)

This post was composed without the aid of google.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 09, 2020, 03:33:41 PM
Keep in mind Gator that we're only approaching theoretical halftime.  Many months still to go before a vaccine can begin to have some effect on transmission.

94 candidates got infected, and of those 90% were candidates that received the placebo.  This means 9 receiving the vaccine got infected if my math is correct?

Of course, such efficacy would definitely help to create 'herd' conditions that would pretty much halt transmission, *if* all are vaccinated, but much remains to be known about those 9, most importantly their age, what pre-existing conditions they may have, and of course if all survived or had only minor symptoms.  9 is a very small sample though.  Still much more to learn with time.

I guess it could be comparable to, or hopefully better than everyone wearing a mask while amongst others and washing hands regularly.





Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 09, 2020, 06:13:42 PM
Keep in mind Gator that we're only approaching theoretical halftime.  Many months still to go before a vaccine can begin to have some effect on transmission.

From Pfizer, "The case split between vaccinated individuals and those who received the placebo indicates a vaccine efficacy rate above 90%, at 7 days after the second dose."   Thus some effect will occur 28 days after initiation of immunization programs.  I say "28 days" because the second dose is administered 21 days after the initial dose. 

If you are talking about when the nation will achieve herd immunity, we need to know the total monthly rate of  administered doses, the total number of doses to be delivered to the US, and what percentage of the national population must be immunized to achieve herd immunity (maybe 60+%).     Nevertheless, some positive effects will start accruing 28 days after a mass rollout. 


Quote
94 candidates got infected, and of those 90% were candidates that received the placebo.  This means 9 receiving the vaccine got infected if my math is correct?

Pfizer did not disclose data to distinguish between placebo and vaccine results.    And I do not understand your math equations.  I use the following hypothetical data  to exemplify my understanding of the calculations: 

            Over the three months after the trial commenced. 0.4% of participants receiving a placebo became
            infected.   Of the treated participants,  0.04% or less became infected. 



An analysis of efficacy can not be conducted unless some participants become infected during the course of the trials.  Phase 3 trials normally take 3 to 5 years to complete, seeking a high number of incidences of disease to allow a thorough statistical analysis.  The COVID vaccine developers  are working with a greatly accelerated timetable.  Nevertheless, some infections are still necessary to analyze the efficacy.   It was decided that a minimum of 62 cases of COVID were necessary to perform an interim analysis and 164 cases for the final analysis.  As of today, a total of 94 cases have accrued in the Pfizer trial.

Quote
Of course, such efficacy would definitely help to create 'herd' conditions that would pretty much halt transmission, *if* all are vaccinated, but much remains to be known about those 9, most importantly their age, what pre-existing conditions they may have, and of course if all survived or had only minor symptoms.  9 is a very small sample though.  Still much more to learn with time.

Yes. if we conducted trials for 3 to 5 years as normally done, we would know more.   Given the endemic persistence of COVID, and its CFR, it is not prudent to wait.   Russia skipped its Phase 3 trial.   

Quote
I guess it could be comparable to, or hopefully better than everyone wearing a mask while amongst others and washing hands regularly.

I would say lowering the odds of infection by 90% is much better.  840,000 Floridians (22 million total population) have become infected since the start.  With a vaccine, not more than 84,000 would have become infected, maybe only 10,000 or less.   Our 17,000 deaths would have been 1,700, likely less than vehicle accident fatalities.  Yes, that is much better.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on November 09, 2020, 06:28:53 PM
What Dr. Fauci thinks about Joe Biden's mask plan----

 http://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2020/10/23/anthony-fauci-biden-mask-mandate-ebof-vpx.cnn?hpt=ob_blogfooterold

Gee.... it was so simple :cluebat:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on November 09, 2020, 06:48:02 PM



I'm still skeptical but if Pfizer did create a quality vaccine, it's good news for Americans because Trump invested in them to secure rights to hundreds of millions of doses.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 09, 2020, 08:43:29 PM
What Dr. Fauci thinks about Joe Biden's mask plan----

 http://www.cnn.com/videos/health/2020/10/23/anthony-fauci-biden-mask-mandate-ebof-vpx.cnn?hpt=ob_blogfooterold

Gee.... it was so simple :cluebat:

He expressed some caveats, then added a "maybe."

Fauci was more definitive when talking with the Wash Post about the Pfizer vaccine: 

Quote
The results are really quite good, I mean extraordinary,
   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 09, 2020, 11:58:04 PM
I'm still skeptical but if Pfizer did create a quality vaccine, it's good news for Americans because Trump invested in them to secure rights to hundreds of millions of doses.

Correct. BioNTech/Pfizer COVID vaccine development was supported by the German government and not by Trump's WarpSpeed program.  The US made a purchase commitment for 100 million doses for 2 Billion along with options for more. Part of the agreement is that the US Government would make the vaccine available to the US public for free.  EU made commitments for 200 million doses and other countries in lower quantities, i.e. UK 30 million, Japan, etc. 

Since they expect to produce enough this year for 25 million people this year (50 million doses), I doubt it will be instantly available and divided up between several countries.  Again, we're looking at the 2nd and 3rd quarter next year for availability in quantity.

Don't plan on standing in line any time soon.

Hopefully, other vaccine producers will have similar or better results with their trials.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on November 10, 2020, 01:10:14 AM

BioNTech/Pfizer COVID vaccine development was supported by the German government and not by Trump's WarpSpeed program.




I know that is what fake news is claiming because they don't want to give Trump credit but they aren't telling the full truth. The German government supported German based BioNTech, not American based Pfizer. Pfizer funded their own research, probably because they want control over their vaccine but the 2 billion dollars Trump gave Pfizer out of the WarpSpeed program for doses helped provide the funds for Pfizer's research and trials. I assume most companies preferred taking money for doses than research so they can sell their product without government control. It's also low risk because if they fail(most will) and provide no doses to the American government, they don't have to give the money back to the government.


http://medcitynews.com/2020/09/biontech-gets-more-than-444m-in-funding-from-german-federal-government-for-covid-19-vaccine/ (http://medcitynews.com/2020/09/biontech-gets-more-than-444m-in-funding-from-german-federal-government-for-covid-19-vaccine/)

http://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/07/22/us-government-engages-pfizer-produce-millions-doses-covid-19-vaccine.html (http://www.hhs.gov/about/news/2020/07/22/us-government-engages-pfizer-produce-millions-doses-covid-19-vaccine.html)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 10, 2020, 06:48:35 AM
BioNTech/Pfizer COVID vaccine development was supported by the German government and not by Trump's WarpSpeed program. 

Are you certain about this?  My information suggest otherwise. 

First, you listed BioNTech first in naming the joint collaboration with Pfizer.  Is this typical in the European media coverage of this most welcome news?

in the collaboration, BioNTech is a small company yet had the proprietary mRNA vaccine platform coveted by Pfizer.   Pfizer brought its mammoth global expertise in all phases of vaccine development, approval, production, and delivery.   

Did BioNTech receive German government funds for development of the vaccine?   I had the impression that Pfizer paid BioNTech a large upfront amount for 1) costs of development and 2) equity.  More Pfizer payments are due with BioNTech repaying Pfizer upon commercialization of the vaccine.

Pfizer elected to fund the development itself. including the BioNTech development costs as I noted above.  However,     Pfizer certainly has received a $billion+ of Warp Speed funding in the form of advance payments for doses  (contingent upon the vaccine receiving FDA approval).   Maybe the German support you speak of is similar to this U.S.  Warp Speed support?

Operation Warp Speed covers much more than the development and testing of a vaccine. It covers production, distribution, and administration.  The Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine is certainly part of the Warp Speed pipeline for the US. 


Quote
Again, we're looking at the 2nd and 3rd quarter next year for availability in quantity.

Positive effects will start accruing sooner. 


Quote
Hopefully, other vaccine producers will have similar or better results with their trials.

Several in the pipeline including Europe's AstraZeneca.   Perhaps the next one up will be Moderna's vaccine, which  is also using a mRNA platform. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 10, 2020, 07:05:13 AM
The expected timeline according to DHS Secretary Azar interview:

December - rollout for 1) nursing home residents and other vulnerable populations and 2) healthcare workers and first responders.   

January-February - complete above plus all senior citizens

March-April - every American who wants to be vaccinated

Key  assumption:  FDA approves the Pfizer vaccine plus others such as Moderna's. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 10, 2020, 09:23:01 AM
Are you certain about this?  My information suggest otherwise. 

Quite sure.

Quote
First, you listed BioNTech first in naming the joint collaboration with Pfizer.  Is this typical in the European media coverage of this most welcome news?

Some examples:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-eu-vaccine-idUSKBN2601S0

http://news.google.com/search?q=biontech&hl=de&gl=DE&ceid=DE%3Ade

Others as well http://www.marketwatch.com/story/biontech-and-pfizer-say-their-covid-19-vaccine-candidate-is-90-effective-2020-11-09

Quote
BioNTech and Pfizer raise hopes with breakthrough Covid-19 vaccine
http://www.ft.com/content/497594f4-7771-4af5-98dc-8c98487ea212

Doesn't really matter which name is first, they have worked in the past together so I assume they cooperate quite a bit, but very likely BioNTech maintains rights to the vaccine itself.

Maybe just a POV thing.

Quote
in the collaboration, BioNTech is a small company yet had the proprietary mRNA vaccine platform coveted by Pfizer.   Pfizer brought its mammoth global expertise in all phases of vaccine development, approval, production, and delivery.
 

I'm not privy to their contractual agreements but doubt BioNTech is simply letting Pfizer use their technology to develop the vaccine alone.  I suspect they play the main role with developing the vaccine.  Could well be that Pfizer is one of their production/testing program partners for some parts of the world.  Appears they have agreements with others as well.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-biontech-fosunpharma-vaccine-collabor/biontech-in-china-alliance-with-fosun-over-potential-coronavirus-vaccine-idUSKBN2130O5

I would imagine if Pfizer held rights to the vaccine itself, they would be listed instead ;)

Quote
Did BioNTech receive German government funds for development of the vaccine?   I had the impression that Pfizer paid BioNTech a large upfront amount for 1) costs of development and 2) equity.  More Pfizer payments are due with BioNTech repaying Pfizer upon commercialization of the vaccine.

http://biontechse.gcs-web.com/news-releases/news-release-details/biontech-receive-eu375m-funding-german-federal-ministry
http://www.globenewswire.com/news-release/2020/06/11/2046651/0/en/Investment-Plan-for-Europe-European-Investment-Bank-to-provide-BioNTech-with-up-to-100-million-in-debt-financing-for-COVID-19-vaccine-development-and-manufacturing.html
http://www.biospace.com/article/biontech-receives-375-million-grant-from-german-federal-ministry-of-education-and-research/

BioNTech received financing even before the virus hit, from EU and other grants from Germany that are typical for research-oriented businesses.

http://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_19_6796

As for what BioNTech developed and their dependencies with Pfizer, more info here:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/09/biontechs-covid-vaccine-a-shot-in-the-arm-for-germanys-turkish-community

Like others, I would think Pfizer owns some shares of BioNTech as well.  Good investment it seems ;)

Quote
Pfizer elected to fund the development itself. including the BioNTech development costs as I noted above.  However,     Pfizer certainly has received a $billion+ of Warp Speed funding in the form of advance payments for doses  (contingent upon the vaccine receiving FDA approval).   Maybe the German support you speak of is similar to this U.S.  Warp Speed support?

Some grants, some other purchase agreements that are similar.  EU and single EU countries supported many of the other vaccine research and production firms as well.

Quote
Operation Warp Speed covers much more than the development and testing of a vaccine. It covers production, distribution, and administration.  The Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine is certainly part of the Warp Speed pipeline for the US.
 

Quite possible Pfizer is a more westward-facing partner, with BioNTech facing EU and east, or some variation thereof.  Some may believe Warp Speed somehow assured the US would be first in line to receive the vaccine.  They may be disappointed.  According to info, I have read, EU agreements include equal distribution between countries based on population.  Rumors that production facilities in Germany were reserved for producing the COVID vaccine exclusively for the US and Japan have been debunked.

http://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/politik-ausland/bild-exklusiv-eu-vertrag-fuer-neuen-corona-impfstoff-in-trockenen-tuechern-73864752.bild.html

More at the following link as to the history of development and major role of Pfizer with the testing and production programs.

http://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/09/health/covid-vaccine-pfizer.html

Quote
Work on the vaccine began in Mainz, Germany, in late January, when Ugur Sahin, the chief executive and co-founder of BioNTech, read about the virus in the Lancet that filled him with dread. “I almost instantly knew that this would affect us,” Mr. Sahin said. That same day, the first European cases were detected, in France.

Mr. Sahin assembled a 40-person team to work on the vaccine. Many employees canceled vacations and Mr. Sahin authorized overtime pay. They called it Project Lightspeed.

Interesting that BioNTech called their development program 'Lightspeed'.  Guess which was first, Lightspeed or Warpspeed? Quite a coincidence eh? ;)

Quote
Positive effects will start accruing sooner.
 

I do hope so, but don't drop your mask quite yet. Many hurdles lie ahead.

Quote
Several in the pipeline including Europe's AstraZeneca.   Perhaps the next one up will be Moderna's vaccine, which  is also using a mRNA platform.

I hear Moderna's initial testing results should be coming out towards the end of the month.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 10, 2020, 10:30:26 AM
The expected timeline according to DHS Secretary Azar interview:

December - rollout for 1) nursing home residents and other vulnerable populations and 2) healthcare workers and first responders.   

January-February - complete above plus all senior citizens

March-April - every American who wants to be vaccinated

Key  assumption:  FDA approves the Pfizer vaccine plus others such as Moderna's.

All this with the presumption that enough vaccine will be available by those times.  How many states have already selected their immunization priority order?  I assume each will be in control of their own distribution.  Sounds messy already.

Considering we're now mid-November, with initial results from only one vaccine, none approved, and limited worldwide stock ready for distribution in 2020, Azar's expectations are very optimistic.



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on November 10, 2020, 10:49:47 AM
All this with the presumption that enough vaccine will be available by those times.  How many states have already selected their immunization priority order?  I assume each will be in control of their own distribution.  Sounds messy already.

Considering we're now mid-November, with initial results from only one vaccine, none approved, and limited worldwide stock ready for distribution in 2020, Azar's expectations are very optimistic.

Considering numerous states were given the leeway to screw up their covid response with federal dollars I'd be surprised if they or specifically those will be allowed to screw up the federally funded vaccine distribution IMO but you never know.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on November 10, 2020, 11:47:43 AM
Are you certain about this?  My information suggest otherwise. 

Pfizer is on record as stating it received no funding from the US government. 

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/pfizers-head-vaccine-development-notes-145930453.html (http://ca.news.yahoo.com/pfizers-head-vaccine-development-notes-145930453.html)


Pfizer certainly has received a $billion+ of Warp Speed funding in the form of advance payments for doses  (contingent upon the vaccine receiving FDA approval). 

Pfizer doesn't get paid until the vaccine is delivered.
Quote
Under the arrangement (http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20200722005438/en/Pfizer-BioNTech-Announce-Agreement-U.S.-Government-600), the federal government would obtain that first batch for $1.95 billion, or about $20 a dose, with the rights to acquire up to 500 million more, or 600 million total. Americans would receive the vaccine for free. Before it could be distributed, it would need emergency approval by the Food and Drug Administration. But the U.S. government does not pay the nearly $2 billion until the drug is approved and the first 100 million doses are delivered.

http://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/22/us/politics/pfizer-coronavirus-vaccine.html


Google was used to retrieve the NYT article quoted above.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 10, 2020, 03:05:25 PM

Pfizer is on record as stating it received no funding from the US government. 
 

Later corrected.  From CNN, yes CNN:

Quote
Pfizer spokesperson Sharon Castillo provided a statement that said the company is indeed part of Operation Warp Speed.

"Pfizer is one of various vaccine manufacturers participating in Operation Warp Speed as a supplier of a potential COVID-19 vaccine," Castillo said in an email. "While Pfizer did reach an advanced purchase agreement with the U.S. government, the company did not accept (Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority) funding for the research and development process. All the investment for R&D was made by Pfizer at risk. Dr. Jansen was emphasizing that last point."   


http://www.cnn.com/2020/11/10/politics/fact-check-pfizer-warp-speed-pence/index.html

I easily understand the emphasis on  Pfizer funding its own R&D at risk.   

Let's celebrate  that the two companies collaborated their vast resources to develop a vaccine that could defeat COVID. 

It remains to be seen how the production will be divvied up among its purchasers.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 10, 2020, 03:17:19 PM
BioNTech/Pfizer COVID vaccine development was supported by the German government and not by Trump's WarpSpeed program.

Are you certain about this?  My information suggest otherwise. 

Quite sure.

Wow!  You dumped sourced a lot of material. 

I say we are both right.  Pfizer is part of Operation Warp Speed, yet funded its own R&D.  Germany funded some of BioNTech's research, and Pfizer contributed as well.   

The collaborative effort is loosely defined, yet who cares.  We can celebrate its success in developing what appears is not only the first vaccine,  but one with remarkably high efficacy. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 10, 2020, 03:25:27 PM
All this with the presumption that enough vaccine will be available by those times.  How many states have already selected their immunization priority order?  I assume each will be in control of their own distribution.  Sounds messy already.

My understanding is the Feds will play a leadership role in the distribution and immunization.   

A 60 Minutes interview from Sunday answered your very question:

Quote
David Martin:  So if this distribution of vaccine is-- doesn't go according to plan, where does the buck stop?

General Gus Perna:  Me. Conversation's over. It's pretty easy, me. I hold myself 100% personally accountable to that end.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-vaccine-distribution-60-minutes-2020-11-08/


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Maxx2 on November 10, 2020, 08:51:47 PM
Those of you feel despair go to Infowars.com or banned.video.com
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 10, 2020, 10:56:09 PM
Alex Jones  and you may not have seen this, yet...)

Posted weeks before the election..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SoJI_KNV0Q
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 11, 2020, 03:47:09 AM
Wow!  You dumped sourced a lot of material. 

Sorry about that, each link had interesting little bits and pieces, some slightly different than others.

Quote
I say we are both right.  Pfizer is part of Operation Warp Speed, yet funded its own R&D.  Germany funded some of BioNTech's research, and Pfizer contributed as well.   

Indeed.

Quote
The collaborative effort is loosely defined, yet who cares.  We can celebrate its success in developing what appears is not only the first vaccine,  but one with remarkably high efficacy.

Yes, it is a brighter light at the end of the tunnel.  Hopefully, others will have success as well.

I was particularly interested in the background story behind this collaborative effort.  I found the following interesting article that explains more about this collaborative effort between these two BioNTech and Pfizer CEOs.  Basically, a loose agreement between close friends, a handshake, and a 'let's do it' attitude.

http://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/10/business/biontech-covid-vaccine.html

If you can't open the link or don't have a subscription I'd be happy to send it to you, just PM me.  It's quite an amazing, very human story that indirectly touches other aspects often discussed here at RWD such as immigration, affordable higher education, along with a good bit of humility. A far cry from the boardroom lawyerdom one would expect.  Also makes some sense as to why sales agreements with countries insist that the vaccine be given to the population without charge.  I hope other companies do the same.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 11, 2020, 06:46:14 AM
Also makes some sense as to why sales agreements with countries insist that the vaccine be given to the population without charge.  I hope other companies do the same.

The majority of the world's population probably can not afford to pay commercial prices for vaccines.  Some subsidy is needed, but not to the point of making shareholders of pharma companies pay it. 

Pfizer invested its research funds at risk.  A modest return is warranted, other than humanitarian satisfaction.   

One could argue this vaccine is a "loss leader" taking advantage of the accelerated regulatory process.  If approved, it will be the first mRNA drug approved by the FDA, opening the door for many others in the future, not just vaccines but drugs to prevent SCD, maybe specific cancers.  That is why it could be advancing medical science by a 100 years.   

Quote
  If you can't open the link or don't have a subscription I'd be happy to send it to you, just PM me. 

Please do.  As you likely guess, I do not subscribe to NYTimes considering their policy to focus their newsroom to bring down Trump as if he were Hitler, only to publish many stories later proven wrong.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 11, 2020, 07:03:56 AM
MEANWHILE....


1.  Russia claims it vaccine is 92% effective based on its clinical double blind study of 40,000 participants.  Unlike the PfizerBioNTech vaccine, Russia's vaccine uses the viral vector platform, as does China's.

The world will have the opportunity in 2021 to be immunized against COVID.  Unlike the Taliban, COVID-19 will go away. 

2. FDA gave emergency approval to Eli Lily for a therapeutic antibody drug.    It is very effective if administered early, shortening the length of  COVID hospitalizations.  It is similar to the treatment received by Trump.   Availability is limited now, yet will be expanded as the expected third US wave surges.

3.  In a stock sale plan approved by the Board in August,  Pfizer CEO sold this week over half of his stock, yielding $6 million in proceeds.    The plan was triggered by the price rise. 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 11, 2020, 07:15:35 AM
Those of you feel despair go to Infowars.com or banned.video.com

Alex Jones  and you may not have seen this, yet...)


Moby, you are sleeping at the switch.  Maxx made a post, and over two hours elapsed before you countered.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 11, 2020, 09:13:18 AM

I was particularly interested in the background story behind this collaborative effort.  I found the following interesting article that explains more about this collaborative effort between these two BioNTech and Pfizer CEOs.  Basically, a loose agreement between close friends, a handshake, and a 'let's do it' attitude.


Thanks for sending the article. 

It is a "feel good" story.   Still riding bicycles to work.  :)  Good to read that they did not stop at say $100 million when selling their prior company and instead focused on making BioNTech a success.


While the couple profess medical science, one of them is very good at business.  Otherwise, they never would have taken their startup to a $20 billion company.   Likely a close friend-associate or some venture capitalist  played a leading role.    For comparison, the company started a few years ago by my step-daughter and her husband could be capitalized today at as much as $20 million.  They want to grow more and more, yet IMO they are about to hit a wall without such help.  And their company is 1/1000th of BioNTech today!   Like BioNTech, they need a proprietary process the world needs and wants. 

And today BioNTech's mRNA platform is breaking out with an unlimited future.  Who knows, maybe they surpass the $200 billion Pfizer.   Bill Gates passed IBM. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Maxx2 on November 11, 2020, 09:23:55 AM

Moby, you are sleeping at the switch.  Maxx made a post, and over two hours elapsed before you countered.   


Thanks Gator
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 11, 2020, 12:03:14 PM

Moby, you are sleeping at the switch.  Maxx made a post, and over two hours elapsed before you countered.   

Maxx is 4 hours ahead!

Was that it, re any valid counter? )
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 11, 2020, 12:25:43 PM
Thanks for sending the article. 

It is a "feel good" story.   Still riding bicycles to work.  :)  Good to read that they did not stop at say $100 million when selling their prior company and instead focused on making BioNTech a success.

While the couple profess medical science, one of them is very good at business.  Otherwise, they never would have taken their startup to a $20 billion company.   Likely a close friend-associate or some venture capitalist  played a leading role.

Yes, they have had quite a few that invested before COVID.  I think it's safe to assume they have their backs covered as far as assistance on the business side.

http://familyofficehub.io/blog/strungmann-single-family-office-invests-in-german-company-biontech/

Quote
For comparison, the company started a few years ago by my step-daughter and her husband could be capitalized today at as much as $20 million.  They want to grow more and more, yet IMO they are about to hit a wall without such help. And their company is 1/1000th of BioNTech today!   Like BioNTech, they need a proprietary process the world needs and wants.

Yeah, it's tough without the assistance of folks that want to invest and manage financial aspects, allowing the 'brains' to fully concentrat on developing the product or service.  Wishing the best for your daughter and husband!

Quote
And today BioNTech's mRNA platform is breaking out with an unlimited future.  Who knows, maybe they surpass the $200 billion Pfizer.   Bill Gates passed IBM.

The Gates Foundation invested as well in for HIV and TB vaccines ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 11, 2020, 04:11:59 PM
Maxx is 4 hours ahead!

Read the time of his post and your knee-jerk response.

Quote
Was that it, re any valid counter? )

I did not examine the substance of what either of you had to say.   Ask me, "Why not?" 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 11, 2020, 11:50:49 PM
Read the time of his post and your knee-jerk response.

..done...it sems it may be you that has committed the sin..

Then you compound the error..



I did not examine the substance of what either of you had to say.   Ask me, "Why not?"

Yup, you truly miss ANY irony in your contribution..

In the meantime, poor Maxx has to be indoors by 10pm for the foreseeable future, due to the spike in GE cases.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 12, 2020, 09:01:07 AM
..done...it sems it may be you that has committed the sin..

I jokingly made fun of a two-hour  gap for your knee-jerk reaction.   You overlooked the "knee-jerk" aspect and dwelled on four hours. 

Two hours, four hours, eight hours...it makes no difference to my accusation that you seem to stalk Maxx. 

Nevertheless, it was two hours as shown below:   


Quote from: Maxx2 on November 10, 2020, 10:51:47 PM


Quote from: msmob on Yesterday at 12:56:09 AM

Reported times are for my time zone. Your reported times should differ, but not the two-hour gap.


Quote
Then you compound the error..

Yup, you truly miss ANY irony in your contribution..

I miss a lot with you, but not with others.  Why?

Moby, why do exchanges with you deteriorate?

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 13, 2020, 09:25:22 AM
Gator

It is sad to have to explain this, again.

1/ Maxx starts his day 4 hours ahead of me...so I tend to be the responder

2/ You seem to have decided to ignore commenting on what I posted in response to his suggestion of content... the point being Alex Jones got well and truly busted.



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on November 13, 2020, 06:08:31 PM



Pfizer and BioNTech vaccine may help our immune system beat COVID for a year. Hopefully they'll eventually find something that will work for us forever.
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[/size]http://nypost.com/2020/11/13/man-behind-covid-19-vaccine-says-it-will-bash-the-virus-over-head/[/color]
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on November 14, 2020, 05:49:11 PM


Another California politician with a do as I say, not as I do policy. While he governor is telling people to avoid get togethers and suggest people cancelling Thanksgiving and Christmas get togethers, he goes to birthday parties. Blame it on Trump?

http://lasvegassun.com/news/2020/nov/13/california-governor-went-to-party-violated-own-vir/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on November 14, 2020, 05:59:32 PM

Another California politician with a do as I say, not as I do policy. While he governor is telling people to avoid get togethers and suggest people cancelling Thanksgiving and Christmas get togethers, he goes to birthday parties. Blame it on Trump?

http://lasvegassun.com/news/2020/nov/13/california-governor-went-to-party-violated-own-vir/
Major foul up by newsome on this one.  He no longer has very much credibility to demand others follow the rules he is advocating.  I'm pretty surprised he had the audacity to violate his own rules, especially since he knows the rules aren't being well received by many.  Trump can't be blamed for this one. 

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on November 15, 2020, 05:50:44 PM


This morning my governor shut down indoor dining, the gym, and bars. A few hours later I went to the store to get some milk. Long lines and they were sold out of toilet paper, tissues, napkins and paper towels. I've been buying tp by the case. Got 40 rolls in the house. Should last me two weeks.  :D
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 16, 2020, 04:26:46 AM
British PM self isolating after being in contact with colleague who has tested positive..


But it is 'OK'...he is 'bursting with antibodies'...

BBC News - Covid 19: Boris Johnson feeling 'great' as self-isolation begins
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54956076



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 16, 2020, 06:53:32 AM
SECOND VACCINE WITH EXCELLENT PHASE 3 RESULTS

Today Moderna released interim results for Phase 3 trials of its vaccine.
 
                         94.5%  Effective

The Phase 3 trials experienced 95 cases of COVID, 90 in the placebo group, 5 in the dosed group.  11 cases were severe. 

The Moderna vaccine uses the mRNA platform, same as Pfizer/BioNTech.  As with Pfizer, trials were based on two doses, 4 weeks apart.  Unlike Pfizer, the Moderna has two advantages in its distribution and use: 

     1.  It can be stored at normal household freezer temps for 6 months, 30 days at refrigerator temp. 

     2.  When administered it does not need to be diluted (saving time at the doctor's office).


When approved by the FDA, Moderna will deliver 20 million doses immediately, and 80 million more in 1Q2021.  Moderna said it could manufacture 500M-1B doses for the world in 2021.  Moderna is a smaller company such as BioNTech, and has been researching various new drugs for 10 years.   The US company has no commercial products (no income).  Thus, it decided to be is a full participant in the US Warp Speed program, who funded the order for the first 100 million doses mentioned above. 

More good news, the initial results also suggest that those who had been immunized and became infected do not shed viruses   (i. e., they do not transmit the disease to non-immunized persons). 

Truly great news.  COVID-19 will soon be in the rear-view mirror. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 16, 2020, 07:01:16 AM
The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines both use the messenger RNA platform.   The to have independently demonstrated proof of concept.  The two interim success stories are widely received by the investment community for many applications other than COVID. 

There are other COVID vaccines in the pipeline.  However, they use different platforms (viral vectors  or protein-based). 

Will they be as effective?   Will they be easier to produce and distribute on a mass basis?  Are their any differences in the  safety of the  different platforms?   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 16, 2020, 09:13:48 AM
  Will they be easier to produce and distribute on a mass basis? 


Us commoners need to wait  a few days, each time, as a LOT of BS seems to accompany a success story ..like " Needs to be stored at minus 70C  (minus 94F)

The UK govt hasn't even had the Moderna variant on it's pre-order radar ! ( now in 'advanced talks'...)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 16, 2020, 01:31:47 PM

Us commoners need to wait  a few days, each time, as a LOT of BS seems to accompany a success story ..like " Needs to be stored at minus 70C  (minus 94F)

You are describing the extreme cold storage required for the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine.  Moderna's vaccine can be stored for 6 months at -20oC (household freezer), or 30 days at +2oC (normal fridge), or 8 hours at room temperature.  These ranges much easier to implement in mass immunization. 

The developers of vaccines focused on efficacy and safety, nor production, distribution and administration.  The latter three aspects will be optimized over the next year or two.  To have focused on those aspects would have slowed the approval of a vaccine.   We could have oral doses eventually.   


Quote
The UK govt hasn't even had the Moderna variant on it's pre-order radar ! ( now in 'advanced talks'...)

I imagine UK focused more on its homegrown Oxford/AstraZeneca candidate.  There are many candidates, albeit using platforms different form Moderna and Pfizer.   News will be forthcoming over the next couple of months, with availability not later than the 2Q2021 if efficacy is proven.         

UK can always purchase vaccine from Russia.  Krimster said he was on the list to receive it. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 16, 2020, 05:19:39 PM
SECOND VACCINE WITH EXCELLENT PHASE 3 RESULTS

Truly great news.  COVID-19 will soon be in the rear-view mirror.

All these vaccines may subdue the virus spread worldwide but I doubt if it will sort it out quickly. The UK government is looking at a piecemeal approach of immunising the elderly first but unless pretty much all are immunised within a weeks to months then it probably won't solve the problem. Then on top of that it's how governments around the world also respond in immunising their citizens. If the vaccines only last a few months and not everyone is vaccinated at a similar time then we could be back to square one within a short space of time.

Moving to an almost totally non contact economy and much reduced contact society might be the only way if they can't sort it 100 percent with a vaccine.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 16, 2020, 05:56:54 PM
All these vaccines may subdue the virus spread worldwide but I doubt if it will sort it out quickly. The UK government is looking at a piecemeal approach of immunising the elderly first but unless pretty much all are immunised within a weeks to months then it probably won't solve the problem. Then on top of that it's how governments around the world also respond in immunising their citizens. If the vaccines only last a few months and not everyone is vaccinated at a similar time then we could be back to square one within a short space of time.

Moving to an almost totally non contact economy and much reduced contact society might be the only way if they can't sort it 100 percent with a vaccine.

Have some faith in medical science.  Vaccines work, especially those with over 90% efficacy. 

An annual booster may be needed.  So?!  Do you not take an annual  flu vaccine that is only 40-60% effective? 

Besides a pipeline of vaccines,  medical science is developing a fleet of therapeutics to treat those who become infected.  If you are unlucky and become infected, your prospects are much better than just a few months ago. 


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on November 16, 2020, 07:25:45 PM

Have some faith in medical science.  Vaccines work, especially those with over 90% efficacy. 




This article says the efficacy claims by Pfizer and Moderna was done by press release, not a scientific article. Great news for stockholders though. Article also says efficacy with vaccines are usually lower in the real world compared to what we see in trials.


http://www.statnews.com/2020/11/16/modernas-covid-19-vaccine-is-strongly-effective-early-look-at-data-show/ (http://www.statnews.com/2020/11/16/modernas-covid-19-vaccine-is-strongly-effective-early-look-at-data-show/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 16, 2020, 08:05:36 PM



This article says the efficacy claims by Pfizer and Moderna was done by press release, not a scientific article. Great news for stockholders though.



Yes, interim results from Phase 3  trials.  Final results forthcoming when the companies apply to FDA for Emergency Use Authorization. 

No guarantee yet of approval, yet it would take a surprise development. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 16, 2020, 08:46:36 PM
You are describing the extreme cold storage required for the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine.  Moderna's vaccine can be stored for 6 months at -20oC (household freezer), or 30 days at +2oC (normal fridge), or 8 hours at room temperature.  These ranges much easier to implement in mass immunization. 

You just proved my point about the BS re storage temps.. ((

http://www.newscientist.com/article/2259821-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-may-not-need-to-be-kept-at-70c-after-all/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on November 17, 2020, 03:05:49 AM
Have some faith in medical science.  Vaccines work, especially those with over 90% efficacy. 

An annual booster may be needed.  So?!  Do you not take an annual  flu vaccine that is only 40-60% effective? 

Besides a pipeline of vaccines,  medical science is developing a fleet of therapeutics to treat those who become infected.  If you are unlucky and become infected, your prospects are much better than just a few months ago.

I agree with this.

If the weakest and most vulnerable get the vaccine first, it might not prevent all infection but it should prevent our hospitals from becoming overrun. This has been the whole point of locking ourselves at home and cancelling our lives.

Those who do get infected will receive better treatment as we learn more and have a better chance of survival than ever. The overall picture would be much more positive and life could get back to some kind of normal.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 17, 2020, 03:29:45 AM
The problem is..

Even if all vaccines offer protection..

At what point can infection spread prevention measures cease?

Cannot see that for a year or more in richer nations who will get the vaccines, first.

Which std re 'I have been vaccinated' will be internationally recognised?

Sadly, normal is a way off, yet (

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 17, 2020, 03:39:12 AM
You just proved my point about the BS re storage temps.. ((


That's a rather limited article Moby.  I don't think Pfizer/BioNTech would have specified those storage temperatures without reason.  I am sure they are well aware that it makes distribution more difficult.  I did see that it could be kept in normal freezers for 10 days or so and a few hours at ambient temperatures.  When you consider the massive amounts needed worldwide, you're talking longer storage periods than even Moderna states down the road so maybe they will also go for lower temperatures for the initial distribution chain. Better safe than sorry I reckon.

8 billion people on the planet, two doses each that is probably best distributed and injected at the beginning of the flu season based on our experience so far.. That's a lot of storage for long periods.  It could well be a factor Pfizer considered in their planning.



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 17, 2020, 03:45:20 AM
The problem is..


I would guess one should maintain protective measures like masks etc until the world gets vaccinated.  Maybe quicker if vaccination is required before booking a flight/traveling.  I'm tipping towards the end of next year if all goes well, at least two years before not having to worry about covid at all.

Quite a few privacy concerns involved as well since your vaccination number would be another bit of personal identification.  Likely will have to be encrypted in some manner and you can bet some governments will want a backdoor 'key'.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 17, 2020, 03:46:15 AM
BC,

Which one of us chats twice daily to someone organising logistics for vaccine distribution?

BS was their words..

I was shown a professional report re mRNA vaccine storage.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 17, 2020, 05:09:52 AM
Moby,

hearsay remains hearsay.  I don't profess to be an expert in this stuff, but I usually can draw some logical conclusions.

So what would be the reason for the Pfizer storage requirement from your POV?  To sell ultra low temp freezers as well? Or did I misunderstand something?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on November 17, 2020, 05:19:13 AM



This article says the efficacy claims by Pfizer and Moderna was done by press release, not a scientific article. Great news for stockholders though. Article also says efficacy with vaccines are usually lower in the real world compared to what we see in trials.


http://www.statnews.com/2020/11/16/modernas-covid-19-vaccine-is-strongly-effective-early-look-at-data-show/ (http://www.statnews.com/2020/11/16/modernas-covid-19-vaccine-is-strongly-effective-early-look-at-data-show/)


I'm a little dubious on that front too. I've not read a lot on the trials as I don't have time but from what I hear they give a load of people the vaccine and see how many might later catch the virus. However, many of those might have not caught the virus anyway. I just can't help but think it might not be quite the good news day we are all led to believe it is, one way or another.

Thinking that at the end of the day the drug companies will know that anything sounding like a vaccine with a seemingly high level of protection that many governments will pay a lot of money for. How it turns out may be another matter.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 17, 2020, 05:52:13 AM
Trench,

The vaccine, at least at this time is much more about stopping transmission than anything else.  Hopefully, it will be effective as well in reducing the effects of those vulnerable to more serious complications.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 17, 2020, 06:45:48 AM
I'm a little dubious on that front too. I've not read a lot on the trials as I don't have time but from what I hear they give a load of people the vaccine and see how many might later catch the virus. However, many of those might have not caught the virus anyway. I just can't help but think it might not be quite the good news day we are all led to believe it is, one way or another.

That is why a Phase 3 Trial  has tens of thousand of participants in regions of active community spreading, and doses and placebos are evenly divided in a "blind" study.  It would be more statistically reliable if there were more infections, yet 95 is not a small number.  Lost in the news release is the fact that 11 of the infections had severe symptoms, and all 11 occurred in the placebo group. 

More data will be forthcoming in the months ahead as the vaccination program is rolled out. 

Also, it is your prerogative to not be vaccinated.  If so, what are the risk implications for your health? 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 17, 2020, 06:59:20 AM
Trench,

The vaccine, at least at this time is much more about stopping transmission than anything else. 


 
Of course, reducing transmission is a national public health goal.   Keep going because there is more, far more. 

Quote
  Hopefully, it will be effective as well in reducing the effects of those vulnerable to more serious complications.

Interim results say this is happening. 

Once vaccinated for my personal health,  my risk of becoming infected will be reduced by by 95% (vs. 40-60% for flu vaccines).  And if infected, my symptoms will not be severe.  That is the interim conclusion of the Moderna trials. 

What else would someone want. 

Who in the hell would not want to be vaccinated?  And by the time your turn comes (say 4-6 months from now, we will have much more information. 

This is medical science, not political science. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 17, 2020, 07:12:35 AM
You just proved my point about the BS re storage temps.. ((


Storage temps are not important other than affecting how quickly the general population will be vaccinated. 

This is like worrying about storage of fuel in planning wave after wave of bombing Nazi Germany.           
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 17, 2020, 07:16:23 AM

Once vaccinated for my personal health,  my risk of becoming infected will be reduced by by 95% (vs. 40-60% for flu vaccines).  And if infected, my symptoms will not be severe.  That is the interim conclusion of the Moderna trials. 

Really, it's still 50/50 for the individual. Either one will still be susceptible to getting COVID or not.

Quote
What else would someone want.
 

Everyone around me to be vaccinated as well, reducing my chances of getting a bad case to 95%+

Quote
Who in the hell would not want to be vaccinated?  And by the time your turn comes (say 4-6 months from now, we will have much more information. 

This is medical science, not political science.

I can't imagine reasonable grounds for not getting vaccinated, but yes, some, in fact many will likely object.

Indeed, should not be a political 'thing' like masks are.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 17, 2020, 02:40:12 PM
Really, it's still 50/50 for the individual.

Either one will still be susceptible to getting COVID or not.

 

Everyone whether immunized or not will still be susceptible to COVID.   However,  the probability of vaccinated persons becoming infected is 95% lower than the probability of those who have not been vaccinated.

Let me explain with probability calculations using actual data from the trials.   The Moderna trials selected 30,000 participants in areas with active community spreading.     15,000 participants were not vaccinated and then monitored for three months.  90 of these 15,000 became infected (thus, a 0.67% probability of infection).   5 of the 15,000 vaccinated participants became infected (0.033% probability of infection).  Keep in mind, this was for an exposure period of about three months.   A longer exposure period would generate more infections.     


 

Quote
Everyone around me to be vaccinated as well, reducing my chances of getting a bad case to 95%+

The 95% reduction is for all cases, mild or severe.  The actual probability for "a bad case" could be calculated as zero percent because not one of the 5 vaccinated participants who became infected had severe symptoms.

Quote
I can't imagine reasonable grounds for not getting vaccinated, but yes, some, in fact many will likely object.

We agree on this one. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 17, 2020, 04:09:37 PM
Gator,

Percentage never applies to a single person, only to the group as a whole.

After receiving the shots, my body may or may not build up immunity.  Thus 50/50.

If not, I would be part of that unfortunate 5%


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 17, 2020, 06:13:10 PM
Gator,

Percentage never applies to a single person, only to the group as a whole.   

A single person playing Russian roulette has a 16.7% probability of shooting himself upon pulling the trigger.   


After completing three required semesters of Calculus in my engineering curriculum. I completed  advanced math courses in Probability and Statistics, Matrix Algebra, Linear Programming and Operations Research.  Probability Theory can be very complicated, yet the probability calculations we are doing here are very simple.   I thought we had boiled it down to basic  outcomes and events. 

I am not understanding your point.  Please try to explain it without numbers.  You tried in the next sentence, and sorry , I don't get it.



Quote
After receiving the shots, my body may or may not build up immunity.  Thus 50/50.

Isn't that like saying, tomorrow you will be dead or alive, thus 50-50?   Either-or combinations are not necessarily 50-50 probability events   
 

Quote
If not, I would be part of that unfortunate 5%

What unfortunate 5%?    In the Moderna trials, only 5 of the 15,000 immunized participants became infected in the three-month trial period.    That is 5/15,000 or 0.033%, far less than the 5% number you just mentioned.   

Maybe we should drop the math.  I am glad that you intend to  be immunized.   It will reduce your risk of becoming infected.    Your risk of having a severe case may be approximately zero, yet the trials need to produce more data to confirm such.  The risk of you transmitting the disease to someone else is unknown because such an outcome was not measured, but it is reasonable to assume transmissibility is  much lower.   

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 17, 2020, 06:35:56 PM
I failed at my attempt to upload a graph of the COVID surge in the US.  Very troubling. 

Its worse than April, worse than July.  Not seeing this trend yet in Florida as we move outdoors to enjoy cool weather.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on November 17, 2020, 07:07:54 PM



Graph of infections is below the data for the States in the link below. Infections are skyrocketing and we aren't even in the coldest months yet. Traditionally, January is the deadliest month for Americans due to the flu.


http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ (http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/)


American deaths per week since 2017 according to the CDC. Graph in the link below. Notice Jan 2019 and Jan 2020 deaths are much lower than Jan 2018 deaths. This is because the flu vaccine in 2019 and 2020 were more successful than the flu vaccine in 2018. Vaccines may not be perfect but they can make a difference. Take a look at COVID deaths since March 2020. At one time COVID was accounting for up to 25% of all the deaths in America and that was in April at a time when most of the States weren't heavily infected like the East Coast. As long as the infection count is spread across America evenly and doesn't get hospitals overloaded, the death count won't skyrocket.

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm#dashboard (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm#dashboard)


Graph for infections for the world in this link. Infections are rising equally as fast for European nations. But they outpace us in deaths. Italy and Belgium aren't doing so well right now. So far in Belgium in less than year, 1 out of every 805 citizens have died due to COVID.

http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ (http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 18, 2020, 12:29:36 AM
Indeed.  Hopefully, this week we'll be able to have further confirmation that the infection peak has been reached with hopes it is starting to drop quicker (first indications seems to show that is the case)

Deaths are following in high numbers though.  This time around, most areas of Italy are affected and not only at a few focal points.  Much of the country is in some form of lockdown state and masks outside the home are universal. Even in cars if someone outside the immediate family is inside.  Compliance is very high.

(http://i.postimg.cc/PJgRdKc1/Screen-Shot-2020-11-18-at-08-22-10.png)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 18, 2020, 04:17:59 AM

I am not understanding your point.  Please try to explain it without numbers.  You tried in the next sentence, and sorry , I don't get it.


Sorry if I was unclear.

I'm just saying that after getting immunized, I don't know if I am in the successful 95+% group or in the remaining few percent that are susceptible to getting infected.

From my (singular) POV I can still either get it or not.  Thus, maybe/maybe not. Statistics alone would not reassure me and I'd keep on masking up until a good majority of the population group around me are also vaccinated.

(http://i.postimg.cc/C5Sc1Cf9/Screen-Shot-2020-11-18-at-11-56-13.png)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 18, 2020, 04:32:32 AM
I failed at my attempt to upload a graph of the COVID surge in the US.  Very troubling. 


The way I do such is to take a partial screenshot Press “Windows + Shift + S” or on mac Command+ 4 and select the area you want to 'shoot'.

Then upload the image to postimages.org using the 640 x 480 option.  This will resize so it's not too big or small.

Copy the resulting 'direct link' and paste it into your post.

Highlight the link you posted and click on the image button that adds the img and /img tags in brackets [   ]. You can add the tags manually as well.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 18, 2020, 05:07:29 AM
A moment of praise for the Good 'ol NHS in the UK

My Mum decided to get up to 'spend a penny' ( hope that makes sense ) at 05:40 yesterday and fell. Now time to fit aids to warn us if she leaves her bed (

She was drowsy and I was worried about her having concussion, so our local Doctor's surgery told me to call 999 ( 112, 911 depending where you live )

An Ambulance turned up and Clive and Annabelle were utterly brilliant ..  To my surprise, I was allowed to go with her in the Ambulance and then asked to leave as she'd be getting lots of tests ( head scan, hip x-ray) 

2.5 hours later, and a bus ride to ex-wifey who was working in a nearby town and she returned me to my car and we collected Ma.

The A&E room was really busy and the staff were clearly rushed off their feet .

When we got Ma home, the Cannula was still in place !

Not surprisingly, she was none too keen to be returned to hospital and I removed it with the help of my biz partner ( who is back on the Special Register  - retired Surgeon returned to practice during the pandemic )

It wasn't the best time to be admitted to hospital and I think we can forgive the oversight ..

THANKS Nat Health Service

(http://i.imgur.com/khl7gW6.jpg)







Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 18, 2020, 06:19:06 AM
Moby,

Glad to know Mum is okay after her fall.  Of all the health challenges the elderly face, falls are the most dangerous (for the general population).  Not just bumps and bruises but the like of a broken hip and onset of infection. 

My great uncle, a former horse trader, without assistance mounted a horse on his 90th birthday,  yet a couple of years later fell while walking, broke his hip and died within a couple of weeks.  He was a lovable rascal with a remarkable history (e. g.  acquitted for stabbing a neighbor).   

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 18, 2020, 06:21:51 AM

From my (singular) POV I can still either get it or not.  Thus, maybe/maybe not. Statistics alone would not reassure me and I'd keep on masking up until a good majority of the population group around me are also vaccinated.


I now understand.  You can either win the lottery or not.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 18, 2020, 06:33:32 AM
MORE NEWS ABOUT PFIZER/BIONTECH VACCINE

Recently Pfizer reported interim news about its Phase 3 trials, saying the vaccine efficacy is greater than 90%.  Today Pfizer reported that it has completed the Phase 3 Trial, and presented updated results:

             vaccine efficacy of 95% (94% in participants older than 65 yo) 

170 participants became infected (162 in placebo group, 8 in vaccinated group.  Pfizer reported that 10 of the 170 infections had severe symptoms (9 placebo, 1 vaccinated).

Pfizer stated it would apply within days to the FDA for approval. 

Pfizer reported some side effects, most notable were headache and fatigue with the second dose. 

Truly great news, especially the favorable response of participants older than 65 yo, whose immune response typically is not as strong as with younger people.   




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 18, 2020, 06:55:27 AM
We have two mRNA vaccines leading the pipeline of multiple vaccine candidates.  With an efficacy of 95%, the epidemic should end in the US in 2021, dependent upon production, distribution and immunization rollout.  Globally will be a different story. 

The two mRNA vaccines and the new therapeutic drugs  are attacking the spike protein of the coronavirus, showing it is the weak link in the onset of COVID-19.   The mRNA vaccines seem to be doing more than producing antibodies, but are prompting a full complement of immune cells, to include memory B cells and T cells.   This suggests the immunity obtained from the mRNA vaccines could be durable for a long time, two years if not more.  

Related to this, NYTimes today reported  "Immunity to the Coronavirus May Last Years, New Data Hint."  The future looks bright.  However, we have 2-3 months of hell to go through.  This is COVID's final assault, akin to the Battle of the Bulge before Nazi Germany's collapse.   

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on November 18, 2020, 08:46:11 PM
 
For months anti Trump media got their faithful to believe that Trump didn't do anything or enough. Now that the believe Trump lost the election, listen how CNN praises Trump and Pence for the great work they did.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKHTWsrMcbk&ab_channel=GOPWarRoom
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 20, 2020, 07:59:56 AM
MORE MEDICINE NEWS

Eli Lilly received emergency use authorization for a second therapeutic drug,  The arthritis drug baricitinib is beneficial for treating hospitalized patients, reducing severity of the infection and reducing length of hospital stays.  It is intended to be used with remdesivir.

I spoke afterwards with a golfing friend who heads an ER department and thus is on the frontlines of fighting COVID.   He said of all the treatments available, convalescent plasma is producing the best results.   At one time the supply of convalescent plasma was limited.  That is no longer the case given 12 million Americans have been infected.   I assume such is the case in Europe as well. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on November 21, 2020, 09:51:54 PM
Of course the US is faring very badly with the pandemic losing thousands of lives every couple days...but I'm curious to know why is Italy doing so badly still.  I see the death count is very high considering their population base.  What is it about Italy specifically that has made it so bad.  I'm curious if it is genetic, aging populace, culture, living conditions, or what.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on November 21, 2020, 09:57:00 PM
Of course the US is faring very badly with the pandemic losing thousands of lives every couple days...but I'm curious to know why is Italy doing so badly still.  I see the death count is very high considering their population base.  What is it about Italy specifically that has made it so bad.  I'm curious if it is genetic, aging populace, culture, living conditions, or what.

Fathertime!

Comparably with the world the US is doing much better than them. Imagine that that. Europe and the rest of the world seemed to have it all together back in say July. Should we continue to follow that lead or no?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on November 22, 2020, 02:24:20 AM
The US has more reported cases per 1 million population than most EU countries (Czechia, Montenegro, and Luxembourg are exceptions, France is in the same range), and deaths per 1 million are comparable (slightly higher in the UK, Italy, and Spain, and significantly higher in Belgium, much lower in Germany, Sweden, Poland, Bulgaria, Serbia, Moldova, Slovakia, Greece, Ireland, Slovenia, Denmark, Lithuania, Norway, Montenegro, Finland, Estonia, Malta, Cyprus).  So, I would dispute your assertion.


This post was composed without the aid of google.  However, a site recording daily COVID cases and deaths was reviewed.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 22, 2020, 03:44:07 AM
FP,

It is too early to tell who is doing better or not.

Still early, but seems Italy is starting a downward trend whereas the US may not have reached the peak yet.  Obviously, mitigation efforts are again working.

The question is how high will it go.  Consider also the positivity rate which in many US states is very high, in fact, high enough to show that not enough testing is being done.  16 states have a higher positivity rate than any region in Italy, and even higher than those reached in our first wave.  On top of that consider the possible, even probable effect of the Thanksgiving holiday resulting in an even higher level of infections.

http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/states-ranked-by-covid-19-test-positivity-rates-july-14.html

(http://i.postimg.cc/CLRKn3b4/Screen-Shot-2020-11-22-at-11-26-59.png)

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 22, 2020, 04:21:50 AM
Comparably with the world the US is doing much better than them. Imagine that that. Europe and the rest of the world seemed to have it all together back in say July. Should we continue to follow that lead or no?

I would appreciate seeing ANY data to support that contention.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 22, 2020, 08:09:19 AM
What a bunch of numpties..

Ironic that this would be found on RT..

‘GET OUT!’: New York gym owner fights back against Сovid restrictions, boots sheriff off property (VIDEO) http://www.rt.com/usa/507488-buffalo-gym-protest-coronavirus/

Russia seems to have it BAD...People I know from Sochi, Volgograd, to Krasnoyarsk, Siberia have it.. Whole families..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 22, 2020, 09:48:47 AM

It is too early to tell who is doing better or not.

It will take more than a couple of months to know. 

BC, in July you were praising Italy while criticizing Trump.   Now we know you were premature, if not misguided.   

A year from now we can debate who had a better approach, considering not only the protection of public health, but the economy and general welfare (such as schooling of children).  Results will vary within individual states in the US.



Quote
(http://i.postimg.cc/CLRKn3b4/Screen-Shot-2020-11-22-at-11-26-59.png)

For political purposes, Biden criticized Federal policies during the first and second waves, claiming the limited shutdowns were not enough.    We see the third wave in the US has a steeper slope and higher numbers than in the first two waves.   Is Biden now calling for shutdowns?  The answer is "No."  He realizes they are not the answer in the US.  He talks about only two actions:  1) national mask mandate and 2) making changes to the vaccine rollout.   Phony man. 

Frankly, the steep slope of the recent surge in US raises concern about exceeding the hospital capacity in some locales.  The only reason for a shutdown is to prevent overwhelming our healthcare system.  If Biden talked about that, I would support him.     

As we learn more about the pandemic, we will realize people who voted for Biden primarily because of the pandemic were misguided by biased media reports or more than likely simply stupid.       
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 22, 2020, 12:43:54 PM
It will take more than a couple of months to know. 

BC, in July you were praising Italy while criticizing Trump.   Now we know you were premature, if not misguided.     

I don't view my thoughts as misguided at all.  You do see the differences in the graphs, especially over the summer and the initial levels when the second wave started?

A second wave was expected, however, I do agree it is worse than expected. Let's compare again the first and second weeks of December to see where we are.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 22, 2020, 02:26:31 PM
Let's compare again the first and second weeks of December to see where we are.

When?  i imagine you will have a narrow focus on counting deaths in mid-December, and not considering the general well being of society.  As I wrote above, the evaluation "must consider not only the protection of public health, but the economy and general welfare (such as schooling of children)."  The evaluation can not be made until well into global recovery from the pandemic. 

Results will vary among individual states in the US., and among different nations.  And we can not measure outcomes until well into recovery. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 23, 2020, 06:35:25 AM
A THIRD VACCINE

The US Operation Warp Speed has six vaccines in its pipeline.  The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines will start rolling out next month dependent upon FDA approval.  About three months behind is  the Oxford/AstraZeneca candidate, which today released some preliminary findings of  62%  efficacy in a "full dose - full dose" regimen  and 90% in a "half dose - full dose"  regimen.  That is correct - in these preliminary tests,. the smaller initial dose regimen was more efficacious.   

More volunteers and locales will be included in the The AstraZeneca Phase 3 trials as they continue to advance.

The AZ vaccine is more conventional in that it does not use the messenger-RNA platform.  Consequently,  it costs less to manufacture.  Also, it requires only normal refrigeration temps.  Because AZ committed to producing the vaccine on a nonprofit basis, the AZ vaccine could be more important for applications globally. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 23, 2020, 06:48:00 AM
RETURN TO NORMAL IN MAY

Moncef Slaoui is the chief scientific adviser of the US Government’s Operation Warp Speed vaccine development and distribution program.    On Sunday stated  to achieve "herd immunity" about "70% of Americans need to be vaccinated."  He added that if the vaccination distribution and immunization plan goes well, that could occur by “May or something like that” of 2021.   


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/22/us-vaccine-expert-life-could-be-back-to-normal-may
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on November 23, 2020, 06:50:11 AM
When?  i imagine you will have a narrow focus on counting deaths in mid-December, and not considering the general well being of society.  As I wrote above, the evaluation "must consider not only the protection of public health, but the economy and general welfare (such as schooling of children)."  The evaluation can not be made until well into global recovery from the pandemic. 

Results will vary among individual states in the US., and among different nations.  And we can not measure outcomes until well into recovery.

Good post.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 23, 2020, 06:52:33 AM
Gator,

Do you ( seriously) envisage 200 million people in the US will have have both shots by May 2021 ?

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 23, 2020, 08:09:06 AM
Gator,

Do you ( seriously) envisage 200 million people in the US will have have both shots by May 2021 ?

I believe Moncef knows more than you and me. 


Moncef had one caveat, "if the vaccination distribution and immunization plan goes well."   What could go wrong?

     -  Many Americans have a natural reluctance to receiving immunizations (only 50% of us receive an annual flu shot). 

     - The Democrats continue to voice a "Trump stigma" about the vaccine, making the public even more reluctant.

      -  The Biden administration starts making changes to Operation Warp Speed's distribution and immunization plans, e. g. reducing Warp Speed's reliance on the private sector, reallocating the distribution, etc.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 23, 2020, 08:28:45 AM
Moby, to illustrate how well prepared the healthcare system is to immunize America, listen to interview of the CEO of CVS, one of America largest healthcare providers. 

Quote
We have built the logistics directly for the COVID vaccine. And we just received information within the last few days that more than 25,000 long-term care facilities have selected CVS to be their COVID vaccine provider. So, we're in the final step of matching our staffing plan to our logistics plan and, to your point, Operation Warp Speed has said 24 hours after approval, those vaccines will be on the road and 48 hours after we receive that vaccine, we'll be in those facilities providing that vaccine into the arms of our elderly, our most vulnerable population.


Here is the full interview at the 1:05 mark.  It sounds well organized to me, even addressing the concerns expressed by Biden.

http://www.cbsnews.com/live/video/20201122183727-cvs-health-ceo-larry-merlo-on-face-the-nation-as-cvs-pharmacies-are-expected-to-be-one-of-the-locations-where-americans-will-be-able-to/#x

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 23, 2020, 08:32:22 AM
I believe Moncef knows more than you and me.


Moncef had one caveat, "if the vaccination distribution and immunization plan goes well."   What could go wrong?

     Thanks, Gator.. You anticipated my concern...the lack of uptake (

Too many folk will suggest it is a grand plan to sterilise us...or some other tosh

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 23, 2020, 09:34:53 AM
Moby, it will happen one way or the other. 

Sine the start of this pandemic in China, I have followed it closely for two reasons:

1.  Financial health, because the outcomes affect my investments (being retired without a pension, my only source of income). 

2.  Personal health, because my education included some public health science, I knew the threat and how to measure risks scientifically. 

You may notice I started this thread on February 2, less than two weeks after the first case was reported in the US, just after Trump's travel ban.       

I followed the development of vaccines closely.  Originally I predicted it would take 2 - 2 1/2 years.  I am so elated that it required the pharmaceutical industry just a year, albeit the development period was accelerated at a pace faster than ever achieved in the past.

I also made different predictions when we could return to normal.  I did some basic calculations and originally reported in this thread that "herd immunity" would take 3 years.  Upon further research, in April 2020 I optimistically reduced that to  1-1.5 years  (which would be 2Q2021-4Q2021).  See post below from this thread:

This new anecdotal info suggests the US can achieve herd immunity in 1 - 1.5 years using back of the envelope math.  This should be calculated using differential equations because some of the variables change over time at a nonlinear rate.     


The advent of vaccines has thus accelerated my wildest dream.  It is a time to celebrate, not spew pessimism.  The world's medical science nerds are progressing ahead towards victory. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 23, 2020, 11:55:10 AM
Price of Vaccines

Negotiated (US supply costs per dose)

AstraZeneca    $4
Pfizer               20
Novavox           16
Sonofi              10.50
J & J                10
Moderna          15.25

Now add the cost of distribution and actual immunization (two doses per person), and we can see this  will cost maybe $100 billion.  Well worth it considering the US has already spent trillions on protection and relief, ignoring deaths and healthcare costs.         
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 23, 2020, 11:58:11 AM
Now extrapolate to immunizing the world.

:usd:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on November 23, 2020, 01:12:16 PM



NY Gov. Cuomo gets international award for his excellent handling of the COVID-19 pandemic. 1 out of every 568 New Yorkers are dead from COVID-19 so far this year. NY State has a worse death per million ratio than any nation on earth.

http://therightscoop.com/sickening-cuomo-accepts-international-emmy-award-for-handling-of-covid-19-pandemic/ (http://therightscoop.com/sickening-cuomo-accepts-international-emmy-award-for-handling-of-covid-19-pandemic/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on November 23, 2020, 05:13:49 PM


NY Gov. Cuomo gets international award for his excellent handling of the COVID-19 pandemic. 1 out of every 568 New Yorkers are dead from COVID-19 so far this year. NY State has a worse death per million ratio than any nation on earth.

http://therightscoop.com/sickening-cuomo-accepts-international-emmy-award-for-handling-of-covid-19-pandemic/ (http://therightscoop.com/sickening-cuomo-accepts-international-emmy-award-for-handling-of-covid-19-pandemic/)

That's a Hollywood acting award isn't it? Too bad he didn't act like a good governor
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on November 23, 2020, 07:57:10 PM
Quote
PORTLAND, Ore. — Days before Thanksgiving, Oregon Gov. Kate Brown said she believes residents who know their neighbors are violating the most recent round of COVID-19 protocols (http://www.kgw.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/oregon-governor-kate-brown-new-covid-19-measures-announcement/283-725af457-dfaa-4cfd-875c-4e81f7cf1df5), which includes capping the number of people allowed in your home at six, should call the police. “This is no different than what happens if there's a party down the street and it's keeping everyone awake,” Brown said in an interview Friday. “What do neighbors do [in that case]? They call law enforcement because it's too noisy. This is just like that. It's like a violation of a noise ordinance.”
   The restrictions, known as a freeze, were implemented this week via an executive order by the governor. For the next two weeks in Oregon, and four weeks in Multnomah County, residents are banned from eating out at restaurants and going to the gym, among other restrictions. Social gatherings in our homes are also limited to no more than six people. Violators could face up to 30 days in jail, $1,250 in fines or both.  :crackwhip:
http://www.kgw.com/article/news/politics/oregon-covid-freeze-call-police-neighbors-kate-brown/283-d25ae28a-f177-4b68-a5a6-882004da1862
 This is the same individual that did nothing..said nothing...didn't care that rioters were tearing Portland to pieces for weeks. Hopefully the police will ignore this neurotic person and that this embarrassment gets voted out really soon.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on November 23, 2020, 10:46:52 PM
(http://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/583715845051920384/Vm5IB7Vn_bigger.jpg)Dr. Robert Epstein@DrREpstein·Nov 2#SLOVAKIA (http://twitter.com/hashtag/SLOVAKIA?src=hashtag_click) is becoming the first country in the world to implement a version of the #CarrierSeparationPlan (http://twitter.com/hashtag/CarrierSeparationPlan?src=hashtag_click) I've been proposing since March. THEY WILL ERADICATE #Covid19 (http://twitter.com/hashtag/Covid19?src=hashtag_click) FROM THEIR COUNTRY IN A MATTER OF WEEKS. We can too! See: http://CarrierSeparationPlan.com(http://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1327965570382311424/ZGdFcdQQ?format=jpg&name=small)
Half of Slovakia's population tested for coronavirus in one day
More than 2.5 million Slovaks took swab tests on Saturday, with 25,850 testing positivetheguardian.com
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 23, 2020, 11:00:34 PM
Price of Vaccines

Negotiated (US supply costs per dose)

AstraZeneca    $4
Pfizer               20
Novavox           16
Sonofi              10.50
J & J                10
Moderna          15.25

Now add the cost of distribution and actual immunization (two doses per person), and we can see this  will cost maybe $100 billion.  Well worth it considering the US has already spent trillions on protection and relief, ignoring deaths and healthcare costs.       

Phil,

That is an outstanding post.

Thanks for the breakdown.

This makes it v.clear how many govts. will be thinking..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 24, 2020, 12:26:46 AM
This makes it v.clear how many govts. will be thinking..

Indeed.. if J&J's one dose results are good, they will have a clear advantage over the rest.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 24, 2020, 02:14:41 AM
'Your local epidemiologist' is a site a mate in the biz has highlighted.

http://yourlocalepidemiologist.com/

The site is the product of a Texan and she has posted lots of local data.

Now, she has highlighted a theory re MMR having helped with COVID-19 immunity for kids and compares some vaccines.


It is US centric, but still a good read...

Vaccine news.

Overall, COVID-19 can be beaten quite easily with vaccines. There are three things you should know...

1. The MMR vaccine (and specifically the mumps part of the vaccine) seems to be protective against COVID-19. In a recent study, those with the MMR II vaccine (developed by Merck in 1979) fared much better compared to those without the MMRII vaccine (e.g., naturally acquired antibodies, or the old vaccine). This may explain the mystery behind why kids are doing surprisingly well during the pandemic. This theory was introduced in March 2020 after scientists noticed that recent, large-scale MMR vaccination campaigns were associated with countries with the fewest COVID-19 deaths. Randomized control trials are being conducted now to test this preliminary finding more in depth.

2. AstraZeneca is the third COVID19 vaccine to report promising Phase III results. Among participants that got two full doses (one at baseline and one 30 days later), the vaccine was 62% effective. Interestingly, among a subset of people that got a lower dose (1/2 dose at baseline and full dose 30 days later), the vaccine was 90% effective. When we combine the people who got either dose regimen, we get an overall 70% effective rate (this is what you’re likely seeing in the news).

It’s unclear WHY a smaller dose is more effective. One Oxford researcher hypothesized that the “first half-dose might be priming a person’s immune system just enough, and that the booster would then encourage the body to produce a robust defense against infection.” The US trial is only half way through, so scientists are going to leverage this opportunity to better understand why a smaller dose leads to better outcomes. This is important to dissect.

Unlike the other two vaccines (Moderna and Pfizer), AstraZeneca is part of the virus (like the flu) and does not need to be stored in subzero temperatures (distribution will be much easier) and can be stored for much longer (6 months). It will also most likely be the cheapest option. All three COVID19 vaccine studies have yet to be peer reviewed; scientific scrutiny is an important next step.

3. Mark your calendars for Dec 10. The FDA announced that it will be meeting to discuss Pfizer's request for emergency use authorization. If this is approved, Phase 1 vaccination distribution in each state will be triggered to begin (looking at you healthcare workers).

Love, YLE

MMR study: http://mbio.asm.org/content/11/6/e02628-20?fbclid=IwAR1dl_2_y077b7erStB-R5s1bTHRuf3OIKR4f0H2VYwE2toXc_CiXdcRY-E


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on November 24, 2020, 05:15:29 PM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/alg112320dAPR20201123104504.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 25, 2020, 07:38:50 AM


Vaccine news.

Overall, COVID-19 can be beaten quite easily with vaccines. There are three things you should know...

1. The MMR vaccine (and specifically the mumps part of the vaccine)..........

Moby you threw up a "wall of words," of which all but the possible unintended positive result of MMR is news.  All other points were discussed here earlier. 

You have bragged about how fast you post.  Maybe so, yet it appears you have too little time to read other posts (either that or enjoy being repetitive). 

I appreciate your introducing another source.  I appreciate the brevity of most of your posts.  But when interacting with a bunch of blokes, please make it appear you are listening.   

NOTE TO SELF:  I don't know why I wrote this.  I had more science developments to share.  Bad sign.   

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 25, 2020, 08:21:08 AM
Moby you threw up a "wall of words," of which all but the possible unintended positive result of MMR is news.  All other points were discussed here earlier. 


Gator, the post was to prove her creds ..


You have bragged about how fast you post.

No... YOU suggested same, I merely pointed out why my responses might be 2-4 hours after 

I appreciate your introducing another source.  I appreciate the brevity of most of your posts.  But when interacting with a bunch of blokes, please make it appear you are listening.   

Already explained and your post surely demonstrated who isn't reading ?  ;)

NOTE TO SELF:  I don't know why I wrote this.   

You and me, both ..We all look forward to news you feel appropriate and 'newsworthy' ;)


Take care..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on November 25, 2020, 08:36:27 AM

You and me, both ..We all look forward to news you feel appropriate and 'newsworthy' ;)


Not my point all all. 

To be explicit - I was hoping for intellectually rigorous discussions of science and the implications of a pandemic. 

Again, expecting too much.  My fault. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on November 25, 2020, 09:27:28 AM
Not my point all all. 

To be explicit - I was hoping for intellectually rigorous discussions of science and the implications of a pandemic. 


So, let's discuss the good lady's theory re MMR giving Kids increased immunity ..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on November 25, 2020, 09:38:00 AM
http://www.unicef.org/press-releases/over-20-million-children-worldwide-missed-out-measles-vaccine-annually-past-8-years

I would expect a larger number of young children would be very ill today.

What may be happening is that young children's immune system is more 'tuned in' to new variations of coronavirus in general, whereas we older folks have had maybe a cold or two per year over our lifetime.  Is this 'confusing' our immune systems?  Buh... who knows. 

There is so much we still do not know, such as whether or not vaccine reduces or prevents viral shedding, or if receiving multiple types of vaccines will help or hurt etc.

Simply too soon, but only a matter of time.  Till then we'll have to be patient and a bit wary of unproven conclusions.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on December 03, 2020, 08:28:40 AM
Over 3000 dead just yesterday of the coronavirus in the US according to the dreaded mainstream media.  Largest number ever.  Maybe an anomaly or a sign of the future.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on December 03, 2020, 08:58:01 AM
We also have twats in charge making ridiculous claims

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55175162

We got the virus first because we are great nation

Then we have:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55177948

Dr Fauci: The UK 'was not as careful' as US in vaccine approval







Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on December 03, 2020, 09:48:08 AM
We also have twats in charge making ridiculous claims

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55175162

We got the virus first because we are great nation


I think its absolutely brilliant that some people are literally crying with middle class, left wing outrage and calling politicians twats, because they cant separate a light hearted interview with some tongue in cheek humour on the topic of vaccinations. It's even funnier that some people think Williams is deadly serious. Long may it continue.....LOL

For anyone remotely interested, a short video of the LBC interview has been imbedded in the article from the independent. If you get upset with this then god help you......

 :wallbash:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gavin-williamson-brexit-us-france-belgium-covid-vaccine-b1765562.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on December 03, 2020, 11:20:05 AM
Not really (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/cheesy.gif)

This compulsion for speed [though urgent] on the vaccine bothers me somewhat...Will it affect the effectiveness?

(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/sbr120220dAPR20201201094503.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on December 03, 2020, 12:15:24 PM
“Fauci mistaken on criticism of UK regulator on vaccine approval.”

http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-fauci-mistaken-on-criticism-of-uk-regulator-on-vaccine-approval-12150232

The article then goes on to say that approval was faster in the UK because Brexit gave the regulator a brief moment of spare capacity.

Looks like two wins here. A vaccine to get us moving and brexit showing some promise!!  :)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on December 03, 2020, 12:35:28 PM
As I said, the original comment WAS a dig at the EU.

Plenty of other nations not in the EU have yet to dash headlong to approval status.
The UK vovt told is in Jan than we had world leading scientists and world leading tests....the risk from Covid was negligible..

History has proven that person wrong and he is the UK Health Minister....


SCARY

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on December 03, 2020, 12:44:04 PM
As O said, the original comment WAS a dig at the EU.

Plenty of other nations not in the EU have yet to dash headlong to approval status.
The UK vovt told is in Jan than we had world leading scientists and world leading tests....the risk from Covid was negligible..

History has proven that person wrong and he is the UK Health Minister....


SCARY

My original comment wasn’t anything to do with the EU, I hadn’t even considered it.

You should read the sky news article in full. Like every article it can be a bit misleading but read it in full, consider it and you might just look at the world differently.

Not SCARY at all.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on December 03, 2020, 05:39:52 PM
BBC News - Dr Fauci apologises for saying UK 'rushed' vaccine
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-55177948

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on December 03, 2020, 06:23:53 PM

This compulsion for speed [though urgent] on the vaccine bothers me somewhat...Will it affect the effectiveness?


The 95% efficacy of protecting individuals  is demonstrated by the Phase 3 trials.   It will not change. 

The overall effectiveness of protecting society (not individuals) is dependent on the percentage of of the total population choosing to be vaccinated.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on December 03, 2020, 06:28:32 PM
“Fauci mistaken on criticism of UK regulator on vaccine approval.”

http://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-fauci-mistaken-on-criticism-of-uk-regulator-on-vaccine-approval-12150232

The article then goes on to say that approval was faster in the UK because Brexit gave the regulator a brief moment of spare capacity.


The UK approval occurred ahead of the US approval because Pfizer had shared the trial data with the UK as it was being collected.   In contrast, the US FDA did  not review data until the Phase 3 trial was completed. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on December 04, 2020, 12:32:01 AM
So, nothing to do with Brexit....
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Rosco on December 04, 2020, 02:54:02 AM
So, nothing to do with Brexit....

I assume you failed to read the article yet wish to debate?

From the article;

"because we came out of the EU system around 18 months ago and stopped taking on work for Europe, we have people in the regulatory authority, who until January have some spare capacity," said Prof Evans.

I'll consider the words of a professor of pharmacoepidemiology at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine and an expert on clinical trials before a disgruntled remainer.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on December 05, 2020, 07:48:16 AM
Bay Area orders month-long lockdown for 8.5M people
at 10pm on Sunday ahead of California's stay-at-home order

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9020093/California-orders-8-5-million-people-Bay-Area-stay-home-Monday.html


More Newsom Hypocritical Nincompoopery
“If not for double standards, Democrats would have no standards.”
There are few better examples of hypocrisy than California’s elitist
dictator, Gavin Newsom — though Nancy Pelosi and Kamala Harris
are close on his heels.
http://patriotpost.us/alexander/75236-more-newsom-hypocritical-nincompoopery-2020-11-30


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on December 05, 2020, 07:52:25 AM
FDA Career Staff Are Delaying the Vaccine As Thousands of Americans Die
http://thedispatch.com/p/fda-career-staff-are-delaying-the


Johns Hopkins Researcher Calls out FDA, Says His Team
Could Approve COVID Vaccine in an Hour

http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/johns-hopkins-researcher-calls-out-fda-says-his-team-could-approve-covid-vaccine-in-an-hour/ar-BB1bElWB
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on December 05, 2020, 07:55:58 AM

 
There are few better examples of hypocrisy than California’s elitist
dictator, Gavin Newsom — 
The hypocrisy of Newsom is a problem now.  He should have adhered to the rules he set up, but since he didn't he has undermined himself.   

Insofar as the shutdown here in California, I'm not really for it.  The pandemic is running wild, but I'm not convinced for example dining out is a big transmitter of the illness.   

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on December 05, 2020, 08:57:06 AM
They are lying to us.

"Klaus Schwab and his friends simulated a scripted pandemic event in Event 201 in October of 2019. (see Epilogue at 32:50 minute mark) with a planned second wave, worse than the first, that would affect all transactions, social, medical, political, banking and financial."

http://www.natureofhealing.org/disclosure-covid19-has-no-effect-on-deaths-in-u-s/?fbclid=IwAR3LCIVGzvRH5iqhqB2xpk5yyoV1jPkiG3Nsz_3b-BcTmeut7KybC27qK9Y (http://www.natureofhealing.org/disclosure-covid19-has-no-effect-on-deaths-in-u-s/?fbclid=IwAR3LCIVGzvRH5iqhqB2xpk5yyoV1jPkiG3Nsz_3b-BcTmeut7KybC27qK9Y)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on December 05, 2020, 01:07:23 PM
They are lying to us.

"Klaus Schwab and his friends simulated a scripted pandemic event in Event 201 in October of 2019. (see Epilogue at 32:50 minute mark) with a planned second wave, worse than the first, that would affect all transactions, social, medical, political, banking and financial."

http://www.natureofhealing.org/disclosure-covid19-has-no-effect-on-deaths-in-u-s/?fbclid=IwAR3LCIVGzvRH5iqhqB2xpk5yyoV1jPkiG3Nsz_3b-BcTmeut7KybC27qK9Y (http://www.natureofhealing.org/disclosure-covid19-has-no-effect-on-deaths-in-u-s/?fbclid=IwAR3LCIVGzvRH5iqhqB2xpk5yyoV1jPkiG3Nsz_3b-BcTmeut7KybC27qK9Y)
So now the pandemic is fake too!  It seems you are really losing it again.  How would all the 'inept liberal governments' keep such a big secret?  Thousands of people would be involved, no way that sort of secret wouldn't get out. 

I recall a month or two ago you stating the pandemic was real, it seems you have changed your mind.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on December 05, 2020, 01:47:15 PM
So now the pandemic is fake too!  It seems you are really losing it again.  How would all the 'inept liberal governments' keep such a big secret?  Thousands of people would be involved, no way that sort of secret wouldn't get out. 

I recall a month or two ago you stating the pandemic was real, it seems you have changed your mind.

Fathertime!
I never said the pandemic was real. I said the virus and the fearmongering is real
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on December 05, 2020, 01:51:17 PM
  I never said the pandemic was real. I said the virus and the fearmongering is real
Ah ok so the virus is real but the pandemic isn't.  Makes a lot of sense!   :D

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on December 05, 2020, 02:18:45 PM
Ah ok so the virus is real but the pandemic isn't.  Makes a lot of sense!   :D

Fathertime!

The seasonal flu is real, spreads as quickly and kills more folks than covid. It's not a pandemic. They are lying to you
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on December 05, 2020, 02:29:22 PM
http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/COVID19/index.htm?fbclid=IwAR3hy7dlMLzeHe-gFWS8hzSzbyKJGDU8JYKX5DlStl0qTnnq-a75p1xKE-I
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on December 05, 2020, 02:49:14 PM
The seasonal flu is real, spreads as quickly and kills more folks than covid. It's not a pandemic. They are lying to you
I'm convincible, but not convinced at this time.  Too many deaths around the world....look at poor italy suffering 700 plus deaths a day from it....2-3 thousand a day here...  Seems abnormal to me.   Too many world leaders with competing agendas to agree to keep a secret like this.   I think it is real, just like the one 100 years ago, Pandemics do happen from time to time. 

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: msmob on December 06, 2020, 12:51:20 AM
The truth is some nations are playing DOWN the seriousness of the pandemic ...Russia being and example (

In the UK over 50's are getting free 'flu jabs as the Health Service would collapse with the combination of COVID-19..

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on December 06, 2020, 09:40:29 AM
The only thing serious about it is the fearmongering and it being used as political tool to restrict our rights and movement
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on December 06, 2020, 09:53:51 AM
Remember Criticism of Sweden's Less Restrictive Lockdown Policies?

Bloomberg today:

"Sweden booked a government surplus twice as big as expected in November, due to lower disbursements and higher tax income than expected."

I predict mid-2021 after-action reports of the pandemic will show the merits of keeping schools open and focusing on protection of the elderly and other vulnerable citizens. 
 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on December 06, 2020, 10:41:34 AM
Overall, seems Sweden has had a budget surplus over the last 20 years or so...  quite enviable.

http://tradingeconomics.com/sweden/government-budget

Unemployment went up as well since COVID.  I reckon their unemployment system had surpluses to work with as well with no reliance on further debt.

http://www.statista.com/statistics/527418/sweden-monthly-unemployment-rate/#:~:text=The%20unemployment%20rate%20in%20Sweden,rate%20stood%20at%208.9%20percent.


Overall story as far as measures go:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/03/sweden-anti-lockdown-covid-deaths
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on December 06, 2020, 08:13:07 PM
The only thing serious about it is the fearmongering and it being used as political tool to restrict our rights and movement
Doesn't make sense, why would our politicians worldwide want to restrict rights and movement?

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on December 06, 2020, 09:36:05 PM
Doesn't make sense, why would our politicians worldwide want to restrict rights and movement?

Fathertime!

I'm not saying this to be facetious but, you really need to pay attention to whats going on around you. The s*it is getting real. Granted it will take you to stop getting absorbed in the mainstream fake news. Your being lied to FT and you don't even know it. The leftist narrative isn't real. It's about control and your democrat "progressives" are pushing it hard. Joe Biden didn't win. You waking up going out into public and breathing isn't killing anyone. Look at what's going on around you
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on December 06, 2020, 10:02:24 PM
I'm not saying this to be facetious but, you really need to pay attention to whats going on around you. The s*it is getting real. Granted it will take you to stop getting absorbed in the mainstream fake news. Your being lied to FT and you don't even know it. The leftist narrative isn't real. It's about control and your democrat "progressives" are pushing it hard. Joe Biden didn't win. You waking up going out into public and breathing isn't killing anyone. Look at what's going on around you
None of this answers the question of why would governments from around the world want to restrict rights and movement. 

. You waking up going out into public and breathing isn't killing anyone. Look at what's going on around you
Pandemic or not, I haven't closed my shop for one day this year.  I see the public every single day, and a lot of them too.   Construction is booming, people are concerned about the virus...even a lot of the construction guys are wearing masks now.  Most know the pandemic is real.   Heck, even my wife/son visiting Colombia caught it now, the boy is fine and wife is symptomatic although going to be fine as well.  I'm pretty sure I get what is going on.  I happen to be an idiot (Like Trump) , and only wear a mask when I'm forced to (Supermarket/Bank etc..etc.)   
 I had a near 500 pound man come in today, without his mask, his skinny wife had one on though! Many of us fairies here in California do what we want, even if it kills us.     What are you seeing going on in public that you think I'm not seeing?

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on December 06, 2020, 10:26:35 PM
None of this answers the question of why would governments from around the world want to restrict rights and movement. 

What they want is total control and power over  all of the minions and governments in the world. That includes every aspect of our lives. It is a global movement and it is all about control. I'm completely dumbfounded as to how any educated person can not recognize what is happening not just here but everywhere in the world. The United States and specifically the US Constitution is in their way. The US is the last bastion of freedom and the strength in the world. They have just stolen our election despite what you believe about the election. It has happened. Why all this is occurring is a deeper subject for another day or thread but, it is happening.


Quote
Pandemic or not, I haven't closed my shop for one day this year.  I see the public every single day, and a lot of them too.   Construction is booming, people are concerned about the virus...even a lot of the construction guys are wearing masks now.  Most know the pandemic is real.   Heck, even my wife/son visiting Colombia caught it now, the boy is fine and wife is symptomatic although going to be fine as well.  I'm pretty sure I get what is going on.  I happen to be an idiot (Like Trump) , and only wear a mask when I'm forced to (Supermarket/Bank etc..etc.)   
 I had a near 500 pound man come in today, without his mask, his skinny wife had one on though! Many of us fairies here in California do what we want, even if it kills us.     What are you seeing going on in public that you think I'm not seeing?

Fathertime!

Well you have stayed open so far but, till when? Look at your main street businesses that have been forced to close. How long before you are forced to? What I'm seeing that you don't recognize is exactly this. You haven't closed yet but what will you do when they force you to close? How many more lock downs or spikes in covid cases? The fake news media tells us we must follow instructions and covid guidelines. They tell us the election is over and China Pedo Joe won. Move along, nothing burger. Operation Mockingbird is in full effect. Look it up. The truth is out there if you look for it but you won't hear it in the MSM. The narrative is false. The spikes in covid is false. If the lock downs, distancing, masks actually worked we wouldn't have a problem now would we? Lock downs create bigger problems than a virus that only kills .05% of those that contact it.

My prayers for your wife and child
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on December 07, 2020, 12:04:53 AM



These early vaccines don't seem like a one and done kind of vaccine since the immunity they provide may not last past a year. We may have to rely on them for the rest of our lives. I hope they create something better.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on December 07, 2020, 01:29:45 AM
Still, many variables left to learn.

Like if getting vaccinated keeps people that do get in contact with the virus from spreading it.

How the vaccines work out for children.

What happens if someone gets vaccine A, and the following year gets vaccine B

Along with learning how long the various vaccines will protect someone.

Will take time.  I do hope there are plans to collate mass vaccine information so it can continue to be studied.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on December 07, 2020, 06:43:10 AM

Pandemic or not, I haven't closed my shop for one day this year.  I see the public every single day, and a lot of them too.   Construction is booming, people are concerned about the virus...even a lot of the construction guys are wearing masks now.  Most know the pandemic is real.   Heck, even my wife/son visiting Colombia caught it now, the boy is fine and wife is symptomatic although going to be fine as well.  I'm pretty sure I get what is going on.  I happen to be an idiot (Like Trump) , and only wear a mask when I'm forced to (Supermarket/Bank etc..etc.)   
 I had a near 500 pound man come in today, without his mask, his skinny wife had one on though! Many of us fairies here in California do what we want, even if it kills us.     


You are doing your part to speed us to herd immunity.   :clapping:

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on December 07, 2020, 06:49:34 AM


These early vaccines don't seem like a one and done kind of vaccine since the immunity they provide may not last past a year. We may have to rely on them for the rest of our lives. I hope they create something better.

We do  not know long-term immunity because we do not have long-term data.  Nevertheless, even if it is effective for just a year, immunization will will greatly reduce spread (lowering the risk of you becoming exposed).

As BC says, we have much to learn.  The good news - medical research will continue and we will know more, much more about what best to do.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on December 07, 2020, 07:49:40 AM
What they want is total control and power over  all of the minions and governments in the world. That includes every aspect of our lives.
I don't this happening.  The pandemic will end and life will largely get back to normal at some point.  I don't see the incentive for politicians around the world to coordinate and proceed with what you are describing. 

 

Well you have stayed open so far but, till when? Look at your main street businesses that have been forced to close. How long before you are forced to? What I'm seeing that you don't recognize is exactly this. You haven't closed yet but what will you do when they force you to close? 
I have a lot of 'critical equipment', so I don't expect to be forcefully closed.  I do see a lot of businesses are closed and I'm not entirely for that.  Assuming it is as temporary as stated things will be back up and running in a few weeks...we shall see.   

My prayers for your wife and child
Thanks, they are doing very good based on the pictures they are sending. 

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on December 07, 2020, 07:59:37 AM


 . They tell us the election is over and China Pedo Joe won. Move along, nothing burger. Operation Mockingbird is in full effect. Look it up. T

BTW I used the dreaded google and looked up project mockingbird.   The US has probably doing this crap for decades, which is one reason I've railed against our foreign policy based on bs. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on December 07, 2020, 08:15:22 AM
TRACKING NINE VACCINES THAT WILL END THE PANDEMIC

(5 Western and 4 Sin0-Russian)

A good summary with charts (too large to download here):


http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/covid-vaccine-tracker-global-distribution/?utm_source=join1440&utm_medium=email


Canada leads the world in planning for vaccinations for its population, having reserved a number of inoculations equal to almost 400% of it population (i. e., enough doses to immunize each Canadian four times).   Not far behind are UK (295%) and Australia (269%).   Placing 32nd in the world is the US at 138%.  Most of the world nations are under 100%, many well under. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on December 07, 2020, 08:46:02 AM
I don't this happening.  The pandemic will end and life will largely get back to normal at some point.  I don't see the incentive for politicians around the world to coordinate and proceed with what you are describing.


From their view it's all about power. The world has succumbed to junk science in the name of science.What happens when this pandemic weakens and along comes the next virus or pandemic? It was too easy for them to suspend basic civil rights for a virus with less than a .05% death rate. This isn't the bubonic plague or even the Spanish flu. There is a globalist move on the world looking to control every aspect of our lives. The corrupt election is not even the beginning. It's been happening for years now, they don't care who knows or try to disguise it. Tell the lie often enough and it becomes truth
 
Quote
I have a lot of 'critical equipment', so I don't expect to be forcefully closed.  I do see a lot of businesses are closed and I'm not entirely for that.  Assuming it is as temporary as stated things will be back up and running in a few weeks...we shall see.   
Thanks, they are doing very good based on the pictures they are sending.
 


Don't fool yourself, if it happened to them, it can happen to you. In a few weeks? Californicate is going into the strictest lock down in the country. Where does it end. If pedo Joe takes office he's already declared masks and lock downs for his first 100 days. Where is the science?

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on December 07, 2020, 10:47:20 AM

If pedo Joe takes office he's already declared masks and lock downs for his first 100 days. Where is the science?


Just masks..........so far.  However, he will run into the same obstacle as Trump - the decision is made by state governors. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on December 07, 2020, 06:46:19 PM



Director of National Intelligence wrote an Intelligence piece for the Wall Street Journal and gave an interview on Fox News saying China deliberately and intentionally downplayed the virus and allowed it to spread to the world.


http://welovetrump.com/2020/12/07/director-of-intelligence-ratcliffe-says-china-deliberately-and-intentionally-allowed-the-wuhan-virus-to-spread/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on December 07, 2020, 07:19:02 PM


Director of National Intelligence wrote an Intelligence piece for the Wall Street Journal and gave an interview on Fox News saying China deliberately and intentionally downplayed the virus and allowed it to spread to the world.


http://welovetrump.com/2020/12/07/director-of-intelligence-ratcliffe-says-china-deliberately-and-intentionally-allowed-the-wuhan-virus-to-spread/
I believe very very little from our government people.  FP already showed me project mockingbird. 

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on December 07, 2020, 08:48:40 PM


From their view it's all about power.  ........ It's been happening for years now, they don't care who knows or try to disguise it. Tell the lie often enough and it becomes truth
power for what purpose, and how could the entire world be in on it?  I don't see it. 

Don't fool yourself, if it happened to them, it can happen to you. In a few weeks? Californicate is going into the strictest lock down in the country. Where does it end.
Here in the land of fairies and fruitcakes, the lockdown is being ignored by a lot of people this time.  Still lots of cars all over the roads, nothing like the first lockdown.  People aren't buying into it this time, despite record setting deaths.   

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on December 08, 2020, 12:50:33 PM
What they want is total control and power over  all of the minions and governments in the world. That includes every aspect of our lives. It is a global movement and it is all about control. I'm completely dumbfounded as to how any educated person can not recognize what is happening not just here but everywhere in the world.
Eventually this will all happen. This is not the last pandemic. Food shortage is likely because of climate and various calamities.
Don't let the uneducated confound you...give them an inch and they will lose a mile [no one specific is singled out]
 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on December 08, 2020, 12:52:54 PM
Here in the land of fairies and fruitcakes...
California? 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on December 08, 2020, 01:20:22 PM
Quote
Biden Picks Xavier Becerra to Lead Health and Human Services
The selection of Mr. Becerra, the California attorney general, is a surprise. If confirmed, he will face a daunting challenge in leading the department at a critical moment in the pandemic.
http://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/06/us/politics/xavier-becerra-hhs-health-secretary.html
 Biden vowed to let science direct the pandemic and instead... nominates a lawyer for HHS. Now what is up with that?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on December 09, 2020, 07:00:46 PM
AP-NORC poll: Only half in US want shots as vaccine nears--------
(http://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/4xJP5HL6qI2xF4lGxObHdg--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTcwO2g9ODA-/http://s.yimg.com/os/creatr-uploaded-images/2020-12/9b2f0f90-355f-11eb-bef3-afd1c608253f) (http://www.ap.org/)LAURAN NEERGAARD and HANNAH FINGERHUTDecember 9, 2020, 3:20 PM
Quote
WASHINGTON (AP) — As states frantically prepare to begin months of vaccinations that could end the pandemic, a new poll finds only about half of Americans are ready to roll up their sleeves when their turn comes.
The survey from The Associated Press-NORC Center for Public Affairs Research shows about a quarter of U.S. adults aren’t sure if they want to get vaccinated against the coronavirus. Roughly another quarter say they won’t.
Many on the fence have safety concerns and want to watch how the initial rollout fares — skepticism that could hinder the campaign against the scourge that has killed nearly 290,000 Americans. Experts estimate at least 70% of the U.S. population needs to be vaccinated to achieve herd immunity, or the point at which enough people are protected that the virus can be held in check.
“Trepidation is a good word. I have a little bit of trepidation towards it,” said Kevin Buck, a 53-year-old former Marine from Eureka, California.
Buck said that he and his family probably will get vaccinated eventually, if initial shots go well.
more........
http://www.aol.com/news/ap-norc-poll-only-half-180524854-202053476.html

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on December 10, 2020, 10:13:54 AM
I heard something very interesting (and for first time) on PBS news last night (or maybe night before).
Reporters always ask Biden team members being interviewed about the who gets priority for Covid Vaccines.

The answers are usually the same:  Front line health workers, Those in nursing homes, First line responders, Those over age 65 with existing health issues.

But the newest Biden team being interviewed added next the new category very quickly . . . and then went on to something else.  The reporter did not raise any issue about that latest new priority group.

So what was the new category ?

Black and Hispanic persons.

I said to wife:  What ???

And I was shocked that the reporter asked NOTHING about it.

Note:  I had heard something earlier (I think) about Blacks and Hispanics catching Covid at a higher rate . . . so I am not against them being higher priority.

But still the shock from hearing this as Biden team policy . . . without any questioning at all by news media.  Unless I have missed the boat entirely.

Wife made good observation however (I am frequently amazed at how quickly she is catching on to politics and psychology in USA) by saying:  "I'll bet the Blacks and Hispanics, rather than being pleased . . . will start complaining that they are being used as Guinea pigs to see if they die, before 'white people' get the vaccine.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on December 10, 2020, 10:47:42 AM

Black and Hispanic persons.

The explanation is that they have suffered disproportionately more deaths. 

Typical response of   Democrat obsequious treatment of blacks while keeping them on the Democrat Plantation of substandard education and welfare.   Under Trump they were getting jobs, real jobs. 


Meanwhile relax, go to the back of the bus, and wait. 

One word of caution, when its your turn, we may not have any more of the vaccines from Pfizer and Moderna.  Maybe the AstraZeneca for you or some of the others such as J&J.   


 
Quote
Wife made good observation however (I am frequently amazed at how quickly she is catching on to politics and psychology in USA) by saying:  "I'll bet the Blacks and Hispanics, rather than being pleased . . . will start complaining that they are being used as Guinea pigs to see if they die, before 'white people' get the vaccine.

Sadly, the government  has already conducted this type of experiment.  Google: "Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male."

And yes, blacks are more skeptical about taking COVID vaccine.    If they refuse, who receives their doses? 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on December 10, 2020, 11:45:06 AM

Wife made good observation however (I am frequently amazed at how quickly she is catching on to politics and psychology in USA) by saying:  "I'll bet the Blacks and Hispanics, rather than being pleased . . . will start complaining that they are being used as Guinea pigs to see if they die, before 'white people' get the vaccine.
of course they aren't entirely wrong to be skeptical.  I'll wait and see how the vaccine pains out for others before even considering doing it. 

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on December 10, 2020, 04:20:45 PM
  I'll wait and see how the vaccine pains out for others before even considering doing it. 
So if everybody does this? I have an idea...Have everyone in government [including this president elect office crowd] line up and receive the inoculation out of random batches...and then we can wait and see. If someone backs out..they must resign their office. That would and should include Madam Speaker.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on December 13, 2020, 04:22:03 PM



Hundreds of Chinese Communist party members are working for our vaccine makers and other industries. Probably to steal secrets. They have 400,000 students studying in our universities and the students are required to bring that education back home to benefit China. If they only allowed their people to be free, they wouldn't need America for ideas and education.


http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/first-section-8192-chinese-communist-party-members-names-positions-etc-leaked-public/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on December 13, 2020, 04:35:36 PM


Hundreds of Chinese Communist party members are working for our vaccine makers and other industries. Probably to steal secrets. They have 400,000 students studying in our universities and the students are required to bring that education back home to benefit China. 
If someday those 400,000 students exit our system our economy will lose untold billions.   Not only do they pay for university education, but they also are somewhat free spenders on everything else.  That is one way we (The US) can make up for the fact that the Chinese toil to make so much of our goods.  We would shoot ourselves in the foot by trying to make them go away.

Fathertime! 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on December 14, 2020, 02:55:24 PM
If someday those 400,000 students exit our system our economy will lose untold billions.   Not only do they pay for university education, but they also are somewhat free spenders on everything else.  That is one way we (The US) can make up for the fact that the Chinese toil to make so much of our goods.  We would shoot ourselves in the foot by trying to make them go away.

Seems off-topic.  Is this comment made because China gave the world COVID, the thread title?     

We share the world, and China is a huge and important part of the world.  China is growing at rates impossible for us to match.  We have enabled and cheered China as we educated them and they in turn stole our lunch.   That needs to stop or China will be taking more than our lunch money.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on December 14, 2020, 03:33:33 PM
Seems we have issues naming pandemics anyway.  Thank goodness they didn't call it the Kansas Flu back in 1918 eh?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on December 14, 2020, 03:48:57 PM
We share the world, and China is a huge and important part of the world.  China is growing at rates impossible for us to match.  We have enabled and cheered China as we educated them and they in turn stole our lunch.   That needs to stop or China will be taking more than our lunch money.
China could educate themselves just fine I'm sure.  We best hope they don't decide to get involved in education and start attracting foreign students like we currently do.  For now they are too busy 'doing' to be 'teaching'.  If they are willing to pay billions and billions of dollars yearly directly and indirectly we best take it.   Don't expect them to keep paying us if we are going to stop serving their students.  The fact that they are better students than Americans (Generally) isn't a mark against them, it is a mark against us (The US). 
Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on December 14, 2020, 04:33:21 PM
If they are willing to pay billions and billions of dollars yearly directly and indirectly we best take it.

This is one small tree in a large forest.  Try to see the forest.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on December 14, 2020, 04:34:14 PM
Seems we have issues naming pandemics anyway.  Thank goodness they didn't call it the Kansas Flu back in 1918 eh?

Is COVID no longer called China Virus?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on December 14, 2020, 04:48:05 PM
This is one small tree in a large forest.  Try to see the forest.
.   What are you proposing we (The US) do?  Shoot ourselves in the foot because the evil Chinese are outcompeting us?   We have an education system they like  and we charge them an arm and a leg, and now conservatives are complaining about them getting educated here.   We don't have THAT much to offer the Chinese, so we should just appreciate that they willing to spend so freely in our country.  They could just pack up and do it on their own, and if conservatives continue to make them feel unwelcome they might.  They have some of the most law abiding and brilliant minds of our time, but we (The US) are much more concerned about them being better than us 'exceptional' people! 

Fathertime! 

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on December 14, 2020, 08:28:26 PM



CNN's Jim Acosta's old tweet implying Trump doesn't get it pertaining to vaccines. The experts told Trump it couldn't be done this year. Trump doesn't always trust the experts and science.


http://mobile.twitter.com/Acosta/status/1234967163812925442 (http://mobile.twitter.com/Acosta/status/1234967163812925442)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on December 15, 2020, 01:38:32 PM
They are distributing the vaccine in San Antonio and Austin Texas
right now to first responders, medical staff and the elderly while
The first 220,000 doses are being distributed in Texas this week.

All this is happening while Trump is still president exactly as he said
it would and NOT during second quarter of 2021 like the liberals said.

Will the liberals from this board who were totally wrong going say
whoops, I was wrong? We shall see.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on December 15, 2020, 01:48:31 PM
This is one small tree in a large forest.  Try to see the forest.

You are seriously trying to use logic and facts? Let me respond. I know
every potential answer. 

1. So you are a tree?
2. You are just filled with anger.
3. It's you who are _________ (whatever you just said)
4. I hate the USA 
5. Our government is just as corrupt as Somalia, Sudan or China
6. I hate the USA

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on December 15, 2020, 01:51:59 PM
Bill Gates would like to keep bars and restaurants closed for
the next 4-6 months

“So, trade-offs will have to be made. But this — the next four to six months really call on us to do our best because we can see that this will end, and you don’t want somebody you love to be the last to die of coronavirus.”

http://www.dailywire.com/news/bill-gates-worth-nearly-120-billion-advocates-for-keeping-some-businesses-closed-during-pandemic
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on December 16, 2020, 11:48:19 PM



Boeing shut down an area of a plant for two weeks after an employee tested positive for COVID-19. My uncle who worked in that area of the plant quarantined at home and a week later he tested positive. He's the closest person to me that has got it so far. Previously it was my wife's uncle who battled it for a month and almost died and my step father's sister in law who ended up dying.




Guy who worked in the White House had a toe on one foot and the other foot and lower leg amputated. I knew COVID-19 could cause organ damage but apparently it can lead to amputations.


Head of White House security office has his right foot amputated because of severe COVID-19 and is facing 'staggering medical bills,' new report says (msn.com) (http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/head-of-white-house-security-office-has-his-right-foot-amputated-because-of-severe-covid-19-and-is-facing-staggering-medical-bills-new-report-says/ar-BB1bVoBB?ocid=msedgntp)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on December 20, 2020, 08:54:10 PM
Italy finds new strain of coronavirus in person who arrived from UK

http://www.uniindia.com/italy-detects-new-mutated-coronavirus-strain-in-returnee-from-uk-health-ministry/world/news/2269797.html (http://www.uniindia.com/italy-detects-new-mutated-coronavirus-strain-in-returnee-from-uk-health-ministry/world/news/2269797.html)


Turkey closes borders with UK, Denmark, the Netherlands, and South Africa due to new mutation. Saudi Arabia closes borders with everybody.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/travel/saudi-arabia-turkey-ban-international-travel-over-new-coronavirus-strain-discovery-in-uk/story-PYp3ZL8FB0ouDhk2RKIoXP.html (http://www.hindustantimes.com/travel/saudi-arabia-turkey-ban-international-travel-over-new-coronavirus-strain-discovery-in-uk/story-PYp3ZL8FB0ouDhk2RKIoXP.html)


I guess we'll find out soon if we need to create a whole new vaccine for this mutation. More work for the makers of vaccines. Invest in their stock. More aggressive lock downs coming. Got to pacify the people so they are less likely to resist the Great Reset.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Davo on December 20, 2020, 09:10:12 PM
Italy finds new strain of coronavirus in person who arrived from UK

http://www.uniindia.com/italy-detects-new-mutated-coronavirus-strain-in-returnee-from-uk-health-ministry/world/news/2269797.html (http://www.uniindia.com/italy-detects-new-mutated-coronavirus-strain-in-returnee-from-uk-health-ministry/world/news/2269797.html)


Turkey closes borders with UK, Denmark, the Netherlands, and South Africa due to new mutation. Saudi Arabia closes borders with everybody.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/travel/saudi-arabia-turkey-ban-international-travel-over-new-coronavirus-strain-discovery-in-uk/story-PYp3ZL8FB0ouDhk2RKIoXP.html (http://www.hindustantimes.com/travel/saudi-arabia-turkey-ban-international-travel-over-new-coronavirus-strain-discovery-in-uk/story-PYp3ZL8FB0ouDhk2RKIoXP.html)


I guess we'll find out soon if we need to create a whole new vaccine for this mutation. More work for the makers of vaccines. Invest in their stock. More aggressive lock downs coming. Got to pacify the people so they are less likely to resist the Great Reset.

We had a mutated version a few months ago that was supposedly more infectious and symptoms shows 2-3 days after being infected, but we quickly got on top of it. Back then there were claims that the vaccines will still be effective on the mutated version.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: mhr7 on December 21, 2020, 02:00:52 AM
All this is happening while Trump is still president exactly as he said
it would and NOT during second quarter of 2021 like the liberals said.

Will the liberals from this board who were totally wrong going say
whoops, I was wrong? We shall see.

I don't remember the liberals saying anything. I remember the doctors and scientists talking about it. Are you implying that Trump had some big role in the timing of the vaccine?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on December 21, 2020, 08:49:14 AM


Putin buys up UK vaccine and will mix it with the Russian Sputnik V vaccine. Trials to start soon. Who wants a custom blend?

http://www.yahoo.com/news/putin-lauds-astrazeneca-signs-vaccine-131331825.html (http://www.yahoo.com/news/putin-lauds-astrazeneca-signs-vaccine-131331825.html)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on December 23, 2020, 03:35:47 PM
I don't remember the liberals saying anything. I remember the doctors and scientists talking about it. Are you implying that Trump had some big role in the timing of the vaccine?

I said that before the forum cutoff on political debates and I have been
trying to to set a good example.

Udachi!

Bill

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 03, 2021, 05:22:27 PM
Cases of the virus are still sky high here in the UK, these past few days at an all time high of between 50,000 - 60,000 per day for the whole of the UK.

The second strain is really having an impact and is proving to.ve very virulent. More tougher restrictions are on there way but to be honest even with a full national lockdown it will take many weeks for numbers to drop off, if they do much at all.

I personally think that we didn't have the national lockdown's on long enough. I think by far the biggest mistake was opening back up again too quickly and too much particularly restaurants and general socialising, that last one I think was a result of complacency at government level from most countries worldwide.

So as a result we now have a second virulent strain spreading worldwide fast. Alongside that we have countries now rolling out vaccination programmes. So we're up against a race against the virus. I've no doubt most of the population will get vaccinated it's just a question of when and how many will suffer and die in the meantime. In the UK the elderly and most vulnerable are getting the vaccine first. I don't argue that this shouldn't be the case but I think in focusing so heavily on that demographic that the vaccine is getting out to the population as a whole too slowly. With millions of vaccines now in stock the government in my opinion seem to be restricting the number of people that can be vaccinated by just restricting vaccinations firstly to hospitals then later through local GP practice. I feel with not too much off a supply issue that people as a whole could be vaccinated more quickly by bringing Pharmacies on board to vaccinate people, even the military. The way I see it is that the more people that are vaccinated quicker of any demographic the less the virus can spread from one to another including vulnerable people.

If the same process of just hospitals and local GP practices are used I don't reckon I will get vaccinated before around June time at the earliest. At the current fast spread of the virus that is quite a way to go. It may even be later than that which means I'm not likely to be doing any dating in Ukraine or anywhere else till then unless things turn around quicker which at present rate I don't see happening. Obviously there's more important stuff with regards to the virus than my dating opportunities, people's health in general of course, but so far as this site is concerned I doubt many people will be doing much dating before early summer (except Japs of course).

Till then I'm going to focus on me and getting in the best place possible. If things ease up enough by March/April I may get some local dating in, possibly. Otherwise for me I will be focusing on my websites, trying to get my business off the ground, finishing my house conversion and trying to look better including a bit off gym work. The gym thing I may have to leave as the bottom of the above list as doing what is necessary there to make a difference is likely to hamper those other items on my list too much. Once those other items are nearer complete then I should have more time for the gym.

The gym I will of course have to use my home gym stuff as my local gym is either closed or too risky to visit anyway. That's my plans as far as the virus and dating are concerned, don't know about you others on here?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: japtats on January 03, 2021, 06:20:42 PM
My friend is coming to my city in Ukraine in a week or so. I think the virus depends on the strength of your immune system. Best to avoid dating if you are weak , luckily I don't get fevers . I drink broccoli juice each day and eat bulbs of garlic (boil to garlic to remove the smell) .
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on January 03, 2021, 09:30:48 PM


I debated about posting on this but I think it's time because the issue is real and can have a real impact on humanity. There is a conspiracy theory from those on the right saying that The Great Reset wants to limit the population. They also say people like Bill Gates wants to reduce the population of the world. They cite experts who say the new mRNA vaccines by Moderna and Pfizer are harmful to our reproductive systems. It may limit our ability to have kids and even cause birth defects due to genetic manipulation. Because of COVID, mRNA based vaccines which have never been approved before is now rushed to the market. Do those 'experts' know what they're talking about? I did my own Google research to find this...

According to page 132 of Pfizer's clinical protocals, they require males in the study to refrain from donating sperm and ask them to not have unprotected sex with females who can bear children. Females in the study need to take precautions from getting pregnant

http://pfe-pfizercom-d8-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/2020-11/C4591001_Clinical_Protocol_Nov2020.pdf


A Dec 10th Pfizer document been released and at the bottom of page 12 talks about findings and outcomes of certain studies but when it came to study on Developmental and Reproductive Toxicity, the study is 'ongoing' yet they've approved the vaccine for release. So my recommendation for anybody wanting to have kids in the future is to avoid the Pfizer, Moderna, or any vaccine that is mRNA based. It would be a shame if 5-10 years from now they tell us they made a mistake releasing it too soon.

http://www.fda.gov/media/144246/download


A news anchor asks Bill Gates if vaccines are safe because there's a high rate of side effects among the people who are taking vaccines. Bill Gates's answer doesn't give me confidence.

http://twitter.com/WarTimeGirl/status/1343673202971717644


Good news is because of our social distancing practices and record number of people taking flu vaccines, flus are at an all time low.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/good-news-flu-cases-disappear-us-number-positive-flu-tests-time-low-reason/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=PostBottomSharingButtons&utm_campaign=websitesharingbuttons
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on January 03, 2021, 09:40:06 PM

There is a conspiracy theory from those on the right saying that The Great Reset wants to limit the population. They also say people like Bill Gates wants to reduce the population of the world. They cite experts who say the new mRNA vaccines by Moderna and Pfizer are harmful to our reproductive systems. It may limit our ability to have kids and even cause birth defects due to genetic manipulation. Because of COVID, mRNA based vaccines which have never been approved before is now rushed to the market. Do those 'experts' know what they're talking about? I did my own Google research to find this...
Fascinating conspiracy theory.  They would need the vaccinations to be spread to the nations that are actually producing the children, like in Africa and Asia.  At the moment, that isn't happening to the extent it is elsewhere.  Nations like Italy and Japan aren't making many kids anyway, so no vaccine for them! 

Unfortunately the virus is killing off mostly older folks, so some of the young and fertile are still going to have those dreaded children and are generally not interested in the vaccine! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 04, 2021, 04:17:48 PM
My friend is coming to my city in Ukraine in a week or so. I think the virus depends on the strength of your immune system. Best to avoid dating if you are weak , luckily I don't get fevers . I drink broccoli juice each day and eat bulbs of garlic (boil to garlic to remove the smell) .

I have an elderly mother so I avoid as much social contact as I can for her benefit as I wouldn't like to see her get it through me and know it was because I was being sloppy. In theory she is pretty fit for her years, mud seventies, she's never smoked or done drugs, drunk much, never been fat, always walked a lot and as far as I know has no underlying health conditions. I too am not too bad, not fat, never smoked or done drugs, use to work out in the gym a little, and no underlying health conditions as far as I know. Even still people can be fairly fit and still be susceptible to it genetically without them knowing. I'm taking vitamin tablets to boost my immune system, using hand sanitizer, a professional mask like you see doctors wear in hospitals, gloves, etc. Virus rates are now stubbornly high here so it's looking like it can be caught all too easily. I've had a pneumonia and flu jab last year so that may help avoid them. I don't tend to get the flu much but I tend to get a yearly cold. The previous year of 2019 I didn't really get any significant cold and that was the year I was working out down the gym a little so it shows how even a little working out can help. Even still with the risk of contracting the virus down the gym I prefer not to chance it there. For me I feel it's worth waiting a few months, at least till my mother gets the vaccine in perhaps three months time to avoid her getting the virus, hopefully, as it seems a small price to pay for me. I'm only really concerned with getting the virus and it messing up my health, potentially, of course many people get it and survive. For all I know either myself or both me and my mother might have caught it and gotten over it without either of us realising for all I know. In any case the weather is cold at the moment so better dating in at least the Spring I think.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 04, 2021, 04:24:12 PM

I debated about posting on this but I think it's time because the issue is real and can have a real impact on humanity. There is a conspiracy theory from those on the right saying that The Great Reset wants to limit the population. They also say people like Bill Gates wants to reduce the population of the world. They cite experts who say the new mRNA vaccines by Moderna and Pfizer are harmful to our reproductive systems. It may limit our ability to have kids and even cause birth defects due to genetic manipulation. Because of COVID, mRNA based vaccines which have never been approved before is now rushed to the market. Do those 'experts' know what they're talking about? I did my own Google research to find this...

According to page 132 of Pfizer's clinical protocals, they require males in the study to refrain from donating sperm and ask them to not have unprotected sex with females who can bear children. Females in the study need to take precautions from getting pregnant

http://pfe-pfizercom-d8-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/2020-11/C4591001_Clinical_Protocol_Nov2020.pdf


A Dec 10th Pfizer document been released and at the bottom of page 12 talks about findings and outcomes of certain studies but when it came to study on Developmental and Reproductive Toxicity, the study is 'ongoing' yet they've approved the vaccine for release. So my recommendation for anybody wanting to have kids in the future is to avoid the Pfizer, Moderna, or any vaccine that is mRNA based. It would be a shame if 5-10 years from now they tell us they made a mistake releasing it too soon.

http://www.fda.gov/media/144246/download


A news anchor asks Bill Gates if vaccines are safe because there's a high rate of side effects among the people who are taking vaccines. Bill Gates's answer doesn't give me confidence.

http://twitter.com/WarTimeGirl/status/1343673202971717644


Good news is because of our social distancing practices and record number of people taking flu vaccines, flus are at an all time low.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2020/12/good-news-flu-cases-disappear-us-number-positive-flu-tests-time-low-reason/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=PostBottomSharingButtons&utm_campaign=websitesharingbuttons

That's interesting theory Billy. It could just be standard safe guards during all clinical trials or particular ones. I guess if I wait for most others to get vaccinated then I won't need to lol. No rush for me to then necessarily, on the other hand the way I see it is life is life, if a vaccine f's up then the I just have to accept the worst it can do judged against the worst the virus can do. Even still I may lag behind with getting it and see how the rest of the population as guinea pigs take to it first ;D
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on January 04, 2021, 09:51:33 PM
A big gripe about how slowly the vaccine is administered ....I saw that in France on the first week of vaccinations yielded only 514 or so inoculations. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on January 04, 2021, 09:56:49 PM
That's interesting theory Billy. It could just be standard safe guards during all clinical trials or particular ones.



Actually the standard safe guards are being ignored in some cases. As you can see from the Pfizer document I submitted, they say the study on reproductive toxicity is ongoing which means they haven't concluded if their vaccine will or won't cause reproductive harm. I know you plan to have kids someday. Careful what you put in your body otherwise you may have a genetically defective Trenchcoat Jr to take care of.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 05, 2021, 04:05:43 AM

Actually the standard safe guards are being ignored in some cases. As you can see from the Pfizer document I submitted, they say the study on reproductive toxicity is ongoing which means they haven't concluded if their vaccine will or won't cause reproductive harm. I know you plan to have kids someday. Careful what you put in your body otherwise you may have a genetically defective Trenchcoat Jr to take care of.

A defective Trenchcoat surely not, lol. Thanks Billy I most appreciate the heads up on that one. I reckon by the time they get around to my age group most of the population will have been vaccinated. I will look into the pros and cons then. Certainly it may be worth looking at putting it off and seeing how others fair. By the end of Summer if the government move at a worthwhile enough pace most of the population should have been vaccinated which may eradicate the virus altogether, that if it doesn't mutate into a new variety that the current vaccines can't protect against of course. I think at the moment the government's concern is just getting rid of the virus thereby thinking on at a government level rather than a personal level of how it might possibly negatively adversely affect certain individuals. For the individual though I can see how we need to think of our personal selves as governments can't be trusted to. I don't doubt the seriousness of the virus and how bad it can be for those that catch it but going charging into getting vaccinated might not be as wise as I thought it was, not for the under 60s anyway.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 07, 2021, 08:29:35 AM
It's looking more and more like that they should have stomped on this virus early by keeping the first lockdown full on until cases of virus had gone, rest of the world too. Virus firgures of 62 thousand infected here in the UK in most recent day so it looks like it won't be going down quick any time soon, its actually going up a bt. Added to that there now apparently is a new mutant variant of the virus in South Africa that has emerged, highly infectious and worst part is that it doesn't look that the vaccines will be that effective against it at least as far as they can tell at the moment. Virus infection rate and death rate way, way up there in recent days.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on January 07, 2021, 02:31:15 PM
It's looking more and more like that they should have stomped on this virus early by keeping the first lockdown full on until cases of virus had gone, rest of the world too. Virus firgures of 62 thousand infected here in the UK in most recent day so it looks like it won't be going down quick any time soon, its actually going up a bt. Added to that there now apparently is a new mutant variant of the virus in South Africa that has emerged, highly infectious and worst part is that it doesn't look that the vaccines will be that effective against it at least as far as they can tell at the moment. Virus infection rate and death rate way, way up there in recent days.
4,000 dead from virus yesterday alone here in the states...a new record.

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on January 09, 2021, 01:07:44 PM
Who else here is getting tired of watching the never ending video repetition of hypos being loaded from vials and then getting stuck into arms? Is there some rationale that I don't understand?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on January 09, 2021, 01:27:18 PM
I assume to (a) let people know that the vaccine is being distributed; and (b) encourage people, when their time comes, to take the jab.


Shots of people being jabbed are not appearing in Canada, and least, not where I live.  But news coverage does cover how many doses have been administered province wide.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on January 09, 2021, 02:06:44 PM
Who else here is getting tired of watching the never ending video repetition of hypos being loaded from vials and then getting stuck into arms? Is there some rationale that I don't understand?
Yes and I am alarmed at the length of the needles which are twice normal.
And they are pushed fully in.
A lot of bones being hit, I'll bet.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: I/O on January 09, 2021, 02:55:02 PM
Place your trust in Pfizer. They produce Viagra so if they can raise the dead, surely they can save the living?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on January 10, 2021, 11:52:50 PM
Yes and I am alarmed at the length of the needles which are twice normal.
And they are pushed fully in.
A lot of bones being hit, I'll bet.
+ the medical assistants [after hundreds of exhausting injections a day] might miss the arm and you get it in the ear. So much for encouraging people to take the jab  (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/cheesy.gif)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on January 11, 2021, 09:44:09 AM
In case  anyone misunderstood . . . I am all for the Covid vaccines and will get ASAP . . . extra long needle or not.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 13, 2021, 12:48:07 PM

Actually the standard safe guards are being ignored in some cases. As you can see from the Pfizer document I submitted, they say the study on reproductive toxicity is ongoing which means they haven't concluded if their vaccine will or won't cause reproductive harm. I know you plan to have kids someday. Careful what you put in your body otherwise you may have a genetically defective Trenchcoat Jr to take care of.

Yeah been looking into it, think I'll try and go for the Oxford vaccine, it's not mRNA based so it looks a reasonable enough punt. Here's an article on it:

http://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/23/oxford-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine-everything-we-know-so-far

So it done using previous technics without using altered DNA. As they say no vaccine is currently 100 percent in preventing or protecting against the virus so probably best bet as need something as I reckon to go around totally unprotected could be a bit risky. I'll definitely avoid the mRNA ones though. Here in the UK most will be the Oxford one so I most likely get that one. If the other one turns up I'll turn it down until I can get the Oxford one I think.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on January 15, 2021, 11:51:24 AM
23 die in Norway after receiving Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine
Quote
Twenty-three people died in Norway within days of receiving their first dose of the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine, with 13 of those deaths — all nursing home patients — apparently related to the side effects of the shots, health officials said.
Common reactions to the vaccine, including fever and nausea, “may have contributed to a fatal outcome in some frail patients,” Sigurd Hortemo, chief physician at the Norwegian Medicines Agency, said in a Friday statement (http://legemiddelverket.no/nyheter/covid-19-vaccination-associated-with-deaths-in-elderly-people-who-are-frail).
All 13 were nursing home patients and at least 80 years old. While officials aren’t expressing serious concern, they are adjusting their guidance on who should receive the vaccine.
The news comes just over a week after officials reported (http://nypost.com/2021/01/07/norway-investigating-two-deaths-of-people-who-took-pfizer-vaccine) the deaths of just two nursing home residents after they received the Pfizer jab.
MORE...   
http://nypost.com/2021/01/15/23-die-in-norway-after-receiving-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine/

I think that maybe/perhaps something nefarious happened   :-\
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on January 16, 2021, 11:56:41 AM



America's State Department is blaming the CCP for the virus.


http://www.state.gov/fact-sheet-activity-at-the-wuhan-institute-of-virology/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on January 16, 2021, 07:23:19 PM
As of Jan 8 thereabouts ----------------
Quote
Cases overview  China (Mainland)
Total cases88,227Recovered82,387Deaths4,635
Worldwide
Total cases94.4MRecovered52MDeaths2.02M
http://www.statista.com/statistics/1092918/china-wuhan-coronavirus-2019ncov-confirmed-and-deceased-number/

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on January 17, 2021, 02:28:45 PM
Quote
Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot called Thursday for the city’s restaurants and bars to be reopened as soon as possible, saying that it will prevent COVID-19 from spreading through private parties, because business owners can enforce social distancing protocols.[/q]
“If we have people and give them an outlet for entertainment in the restaurant space, in the bar space, we have much more of an opportunity, in my view, to be able to regulate and control that environment,” Lightfoot said.
“People are engaging in risky behavior that is not only putting themselves at risk, but putting their families, their co-workers, and other ones at risk. Let’s bring it out of the shadows. Let’s allow them to have some recreation in restaurants, in bars, where we can actually work with responsible owners and managers to regulate and protect people from COVID-19,” she said.

Chicago Mayor Calls for Bars, Restaurants to Reopen to Prevent Spread of COVID | CNSNews (http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/melanie-arter/chicago-mayor-calls-bars-restaurants-reopen-prevent-spread-covid)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on January 18, 2021, 08:38:16 AM
Quote
One in eight recovered COVID-19 patients reportedly die within 5 months         
  By Yaron Steinbuch
  January 18, 2021

Quote
Almost a third of recovered COVID-19 patients (http://nypost.com/2021/01/17/los-angeles-becomes-first-county-to-hit-1-million-covid-19-cases/) end up back in the hospital within five months — and up to one in eight die of complications (http://nypost.com/2020/10/20/man-dies-of-covid-19-long-term-effects-after-hospital-release-family/) from the illness, according to a report.
Researchers at the UK’s Leicester University and the Office for National Statistics found that out of 47,780 people discharged from the hospital, 29.4 percent were readmitted within 140 days, the Telegraph reported (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/01/17/almost-third-recovered-covid-patients-return-hospital-five-months/).
Of the total, 12.3 percent succumbed to the illness, it added.
Many people who suffer long-lasting effects of the coronavirus (http://nypost.com/2020/08/20/young-healthy-covid-19-survivors-are-facing-long-term-issues/) develop heart problems, diabetes and chronic liver and kidney conditions, according to the report.
“People seem to be going home, getting long-term effects, coming back in and dying. We see nearly 30 percent have been readmitted, and that’s a lot of people. The numbers are so large,” study author Kamlesh Khunti said.

http://nypost.com/2021/01/18/1-in-8-recovered-covid-19-patients-die-within-5-months-study/


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on January 18, 2021, 08:44:00 AM

 
http://nypost.com/2021/01/1

8/1-in-8-recovered-covid-19-patients-die-within-5-months-study/

Stands to reason because something like 40% of deaths have been nursing home residents.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: kynrazor on January 18, 2021, 09:01:40 AM
It's looking more and more like that they should have stomped on this virus early by keeping the first lockdown full on until cases of virus had gone, rest of the world too. Virus firgures of 62 thousand infected here in the UK in most recent day so it looks like it won't be going down quick any time soon, its actually going up a bt. Added to that there now apparently is a new mutant variant of the virus in South Africa that has emerged, highly infectious and worst part is that it doesn't look that the vaccines will be that effective against it at least as far as they can tell at the moment. Virus infection rate and death rate way, way up there in recent days.

BoJo has made an absolute blunder of it all, aiming for "victory before Christmas". It is now costing us dearly.

The Oxford vaccine does seem the way to go as it's very promising, affordable, effective, having passed the phase 3 trials properly, and easier to ramp up production when the vaccine super-factory is open.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on January 18, 2021, 10:49:01 AM
The PM came down with it...Pres Trump also---Whatever medicine they were given seems to work.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on January 18, 2021, 10:53:39 AM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/bg011821dAPC20210117024504.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on January 18, 2021, 11:21:05 AM
http://news.yahoo.com/every-single-passenger-board-2-173140950.html

(http://s.yimg.com/ny/api/res/1.2/UY2Ehz53EIb4oPaQIuOr2A--/YXBwaWQ9aGlnaGxhbmRlcjt3PTEwMDtoPTQw/http://s.yimg.com/os/creatr-uploaded-images/2020-11/be27c700-2a45-11eb-bbd7-3133ae25e259) (http://www.businessinsider.com/)
Quote
Every single passenger on board 2 international flights to Canada informed that they were potentially exposed to COVID-19
Quote
  • All passengers on board two Air Transat flights from Haiti to Montreal have potentially been exposed to COVID-19, the Toronto Sun (http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/entire-plane-affected-by-covid-days-after-canada-implements-negative-test-requirement) reported.
  • Passengers seated in "all rows" have been notified by the Canadian government's exposure tracking system that they need to monitor their symptoms.
  • The Canadian government announced on January 7 that a negative coronavirus test is required to fly. Haiti, where these passengers were traveling from, is one of the two territories exempt from this rule.
  • More than 70 other international flights to Canada have carried people infected with the coronavirus, according to the Toronto Sun.
  • Visit Business Insider's homepage for more stories (http://www.businessinsider.com/?hprecirc-bullet?utm_source=yahoo.com&utm_medium=referral).
Two Air Transat flights had so many people on board infected with COVID-19 that all the passengers are now deemed to be at risk of catching the virus, the Toronto Sun (http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/entire-plane-affected-by-covid-days-after-canada-implements-negative-test-requirement) reported.
Flights TS663 AND TS665 - both taking passengers from Haiti to Montreal - were identified by Health Canada as flights with several confirmed coronavirus cases, the paper said.
Now, passengers seated in "all rows" have been notified that they have potentially been exposed to the virus.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on January 18, 2021, 02:12:03 PM
The PM came down with it...Pres Trump also---Whatever medicine they were given seems to work.

Most otherwise healthy folks do recover from Covid with no medication.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on January 26, 2021, 05:15:09 AM
BoJo has made an absolute blunder of it all, aiming for "victory before Christmas". It is now costing us dearly.

The Oxford vaccine does seem the way to go as it's very promising, affordable, effective, having passed the phase 3 trials properly, and easier to ramp up production when the vaccine super-factory is open.

Good to see you back Kyn, indeed I agree, guessing like many the vaccine is keeping you from your girl.

Well, the good news is that we are ahead in the vaccine drive so far much to the annoyance if our EU neighbours who appear to be floundering:

http://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-europe-55805903

There now taking it out on the UK by limiting supplies of the Pfizer drug that was already agreed with the UK. In turn we may limit supply of the Oxford Astra zenaca to the EU. Essentially a lot of the EU's lack of supply is down to their later passing of the vaccine for medical use from what I see and hence are struggling to get supplies as now at the back of the queue. Most of the vaccine companies are struggling to produce quick enough and so the EU is feeling the lag due to its late ordering. It's looking like Brexit Britain is trumping the EU here and they are not liking the embarrassment of looking the weaker side. For me this is potentially good news as it could likely mean more supply of the Oxford vaccine here and less of the Pfizer as the UK retaliates to EU action on the supply of Pfizer. That's good for me as I wish to have the Oxford vaccine anyway as I don't trust the Pfizer one judging in part from the evidence BillyB posted up above.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 03, 2021, 05:35:59 PM
UK beating the EU hands down on rollout of the coronavirus vaccine. We're well ahead of them and they've barely started. An early clear win for Brexit there, had we not left the EU we would be stuck in that mess with many in the UK losing their loved ones through a slow EU rollout situation. Von der what not, not leading well on this one, she's upset the NI lot and now has resorted blaming everyone else for mistakes of not being able to secure enough vaccine in a timely manner.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 03, 2021, 08:16:06 PM



I personally know two people who are COVID positive and they say it's the worst experience they ever been in. One is currently in the hospital for the second time. This time he went due to massive blood clotting in his lungs which some people can get with COVID. He can barely breathe and is in massive pain. He will be on medication to thin his blood for a minimum of 3 months.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 10, 2021, 10:14:06 PM



CDC recommends quarantining after exposure to COVID 3 months after taking the Moderna and Pfizer vaccine. It is not know how long the vaccine will last. If it only works for 3 months, a person will need 8 shots a year for adequate protection.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/fully-vaccinated-people-can-skip-covid-quarantines-cdc-says/ar-BB1dA6Ve?ocid=msedgntp (http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/fully-vaccinated-people-can-skip-covid-quarantines-cdc-says/ar-BB1dA6Ve?ocid=msedgntp)



The latest vaccines doesn't seem to work well on the new UK strain. If we are going to need a new vaccine for every new strain and there are 20 strains running loose, it's possible we'll need 160 shots a year for adequate protection. Too bad they can't find a vaccine that works for a lifetime. In 40 years, they couldn't find a vaccine for HIV. I doubt they could find a decent vaccine for the virus of the century. It's going to start sinking in on how much China has screwed up our lives. We'll we ever return to normal?

http://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1358508146101207043 (http://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1358508146101207043)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on February 11, 2021, 12:59:51 PM
It's going to start sinking in on how much China has screwed up our lives.

Yes, wife and I often question why  this is not happening world wide.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on February 11, 2021, 02:39:09 PM
Yes, wife and I often question why  this is not happening world wide.

This is because, as in the past, we have no way of controlling where the next deadly pandemic will originate.

Maybe Kansas again?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 11, 2021, 03:32:03 PM

It's going to start sinking in on how much China has screwed up our lives. We'll we ever return to normal?


China?  I don't understand.  For almost a year we were told this was Trump's fault.  Now its China's fault?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on February 11, 2021, 07:19:20 PM
Youtube link will show related videos....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqYD7taehrU
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on February 11, 2021, 08:00:08 PM
Quote
Cuomo participated in 'coverup' of New York nursing home coronavirus deaths: Rep. Lee Zeldin
Rep. Lee Zeldin, R-N.Y., on Sunday slammed New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo (http://www.foxnews.com/category/person/andrew-cuomo) for "covering up" nursing home deaths in the state during the onset of the coronavirus (http://www.foxnews.com/category/health/infectious-disease/coronavirus) pandemic.
Cuomo, a Democrat, received further criticism over remarks made during a press conference on Friday, his first public statement made since state Attorney General Letitia James, also a Democrat, said that the state Department of Health underreported COVID-19 deaths in nursing homes by as much as 50%.
CUOMO BLAMES NURSING HOME SCANDAL ON 'POLITICAL ATTACK' BY TRUMP ADMINISTRATION (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/cuomo-blames-nursing-home-scandal-on-political-attack-by-trump-admin)
Trying to defend himself with statistics, Cuomo said, "A third of all deaths in this nation are from nursing homes. New York State we’re only about 28% -- only. But we’re below the national average in number of deaths in nursing homes. But who cares? 33, 28 died in hospital, died in the nursing home – they died."
"Whenever you hear him say ‘who cares,’ every time that video is played, I think of the family that lost a loved one – a mom or dad, grandma or grandpa. I don’t look at this story about being about data, statistics, numbers – this is a coverup," Zeldin, a Republican representing New York's 1st congressional district, said in an appearance on Fox News' "Sunday Morning Futures (http://www.foxnews.com/shows/sunday-morning-futures)."
"It’s a coverup of a policy that ended up resulting in that grandmother or grandfather losing their lives," he told host Maria Bartiromo. "Early on, this is the end of March 2020, New York State ordered these nursing homes to take in infected patients and place them with healthy residents and then it spread like wildfire -- which is even a term that Gov. Cuomo has used, and then they covered it up."
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/new-york-cuomo-nursing-home-coronavirus-deaths-coverup
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on February 11, 2021, 08:42:53 PM
China?  I don't understand.  For almost a year we were told this was Trump's fault.  Now its China's fault?
I'm not sure what you don't understand. It isn't trump's fault or not likely china's fault either.  A virus is a natural event in nature.  The fact that it has wrecked so much havoc here is a function of our poor health and laissez  faire attitude.    China is coming out stronger than ever because of their current population being in better health and younger.  In addition they are producing a tremendous volume of goods, and are able to capitalize financially on the rest of the world's want/need for their goods. 

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 15, 2021, 10:04:03 AM
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/new-york-cuomo-nursing-home-coronavirus-deaths-coverup


Important point, and I addressed it in another thread.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24655.msg552236#msg552236

Some are now calling this obstruction of justice.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 15, 2021, 10:22:18 AM
A friend sent me some interesting data reported by the CDC (I did not confirm):   

Year 2017:   2,818,503 Americans died
Year 2018:   2,839,205 deaths (20,702 more than the previous year 2017)
Year 2019:   2,855,000 deaths (16,300 more than the previous year 2018)
Year 2020:   2,913,144 deaths (57,641 more than the previous year 2019)


BUT WAIT: There were zero deaths from Covid-19 during 2019 and the jump to 2020 was only 57,641 ???  We have been told that COVID is responsible now for 400,000 + deaths.  Shouldn't the 2020 number be larger larger???

 
So the question becomes: How many people died OF COVID and how many died of other causes WITH COVID? 

The implications - the severity of the COVID pandemic was overstated for political reasons.  Those political leaders of state/local governments who supported lockdowns, etc. to demonstrate their power and to make political gains, now face high costs of recovery.  Who will pay for the recovery?  Red states whose economy  fared better during the lockdown will pay more than their proportionate share.  AKA, rewarding bad decision making. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on February 15, 2021, 01:12:37 PM
A friend sent me some interesting data reported by the CDC (I did not confirm):   

Year 2017:   2,818,503 Americans died
Year 2018:   2,839,205 deaths (20,702 more than the previous year 2017)
Year 2019:   2,855,000 deaths (16,300 more than the previous year 2018)
Year 2020:   2,913,144 deaths (57,641 more than the previous year 2019)


BUT WAIT: There were zero deaths from Covid-19 during 2019 and the jump to 2020 was only 57,641 ???  We have been told that COVID is responsible now for 400,000 + deaths.  Shouldn't the 2020 number be larger larger???

I'm going to have to agree.  Why are total deaths only 57k more than normal?  I can understand less deaths  due to accidents and things like that if people are staying indoors more, but that doesn't account for how the excess deaths isn't much closer to the number of Covid deaths.   I would like to hear what the reason could be.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on February 15, 2021, 02:09:28 PM
A friend sent me some interesting data reported by the CDC (I did not confirm):   

Year 2017:   2,818,503 Americans died
Year 2018:   2,839,205 deaths (20,702 more than the previous year 2017)
Year 2019:   2,855,000 deaths (16,300 more than the previous year 2018)
Year 2020:   2,913,144 deaths (57,641 more than the previous year 2019)

BUT WAIT: There were zero deaths from Covid-19 during 2019 and the jump to 2020 was only 57,641 ???  We have been told that COVID is responsible now for 400,000 + deaths.  Shouldn't the 2020 number be larger larger???

I checked CDC website
2018 2,839,205
2019 2,854,838
2020  None shown yet . . . strange for one and half months past end of 2020

2020 3,100,000 +   http://usafacts.org/articles
This would give 245,162 more deaths in 2020 over 2019

2020 3,200,000 +  http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/01/08/
This would give 345,162 more deaths in 2020 over 2019
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 15, 2021, 05:11:52 PM
I checked CDC website


2020 3,100,000 +   http://usafacts.org/articles
This would give 245,162 more deaths in 2020 over 2019

2020 3,200,000 +  http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/01/08/
This would give 345,162 more deaths in 2020 over 2019


Good work!  Your wife would award you an "A."  I don't know where my friend obtained his information. However, he was correct about 2017, 2018, and 2019. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 15, 2021, 09:52:26 PM
A friend sent me some interesting data reported by the CDC (I did not confirm):   

Year 2017:   2,818,503 Americans died
Year 2018:   2,839,205 deaths (20,702 more than the previous year 2017)
Year 2019:   2,855,000 deaths (16,300 more than the previous year 2018)
Year 2020:   2,913,144 deaths (57,641 more than the previous year 2019)



I Googled 2,913,144 deaths and it didn't lead me to a CDC website. It did lead me to a few articles and facebook posts so I wouldn't say it's truth.


Here's a website I kept from the beginning. America is currently experiencing 20,000 more deaths per week than what would be considered normal. Keep in mind, there would be more deaths if we didn't protect the elderly and take some action against COVID. Also, the total amount of deaths in 2020 can be calculated in the link below.


http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm#dashboard
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 16, 2021, 06:47:25 AM


Here's a website I kept from the beginning. America is currently experiencing 20,000 more deaths per week than what would be considered normal.

For a year, that amounts to 1,000,000 more deaths than expected.  More than 2x COVID deaths!!!!!!

I guess that would be due to increases in stress in many forms: economy, crime, seclusion, ....
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on February 16, 2021, 07:29:25 AM
 

The implications - the severity of the COVID pandemic was overstated for political reasons.  Those political leaders of state/local governments who supported lockdowns, etc. to demonstrate their power and to make political gains, now face high costs of recovery.  Who will pay for the recovery?  Red states whose economy  fared better during the lockdown will pay more than their proportionate share.  AKA, rewarding bad decision making.
Since the number your quoted is completely wrong, your partisan conjecture was also completely off base. 

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 16, 2021, 09:08:53 AM
For a year, that amounts to 1,000,000 more deaths than expected.  More than 2x COVID deaths!!!!!!

I guess that would be due to increases in stress in many forms: economy, crime, seclusion, ....


There were weeks we had only 5000 more deaths per week than expected. America usually racks up 52,000-60,000 deaths per week when factoring all causes. In any given week, COVID increases that amount by 10%-25%. Would be more if we didn't make some adjustments to our lives. The good news is colds and flus are way down but even with the lives saved there, it doesn't cancel out what COVID is doing.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 16, 2021, 12:16:24 PM


Anybody know about the ROTHSCHILDS PATENTED COVID-19 BIOMETRIC TESTS IN 2015. AND 2017 in the Netherlands?

http://silview.media/2020/10/04/atomic-bombshell-rothschilds-patented-covid-19-biometric-tests-in-2015-and-2017/ (http://silview.media/2020/10/04/atomic-bombshell-rothschilds-patented-covid-19-biometric-tests-in-2015-and-2017/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 16, 2021, 12:35:59 PM
Since the number your quoted is completely wrong,...

I mentioned I had not confirmed the report.  You went along with it too! So when pointing fingers, point at yourself too.

ML and Billy helped clarify with better data.  Good for them!



Quote
your partisan conjecture was also completely off base. 


It still stands as long as states/local governments with school lockdowns are demanding billions and billions of aid.

The pandemic was bad, real bad, yet was packaged as something worse for political gain.  Never waste a crisis. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on February 16, 2021, 06:35:14 PM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/mrz021621dAPR20210216054504.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on February 16, 2021, 08:26:05 PM
I mentioned I had not confirmed the report.  You went along with it too! So when pointing fingers, point at yourself too.

ML and Billy helped clarify with better data.  Good for them!
It was a good example of how bad information can get passed around.  I glanced at your post and made the bad assumption that the info was correct.  During the day I mentioned the bad information to someone else, it was only later that I happened to see the corrected data by the guys here.    I think I would have eventually checked it out myself because it was surprising that only 50k additional deaths occurred. 

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 16, 2021, 08:37:57 PM


Now that elections are over, it's okay to show Democrats manipulated the death numbers of those who died in nursing homes after Cuomo ordered the elderly who are COVID positive to remain there which led to spread and more deaths. Cuomo was once praised for doing an awesome job handling the Pandemic and people wanted him to be President. He doesn't have to worry about losing his job. If his name was Trump, he'd be impeached and charged with murder.

Some of the warning I've wrote about vaccines here would get me banned if I posted my concerns on Facebook. Social media's agenda is to get people to take the vaccines without question after they promote only positive news on vaccines. FaceBook CEO Mark Zuckerberg got caught saying we don't know the long term side affects of modifying people's DNA and RNA.


http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/02/watch-facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerberg-takes-anti-vax-stance-violates-platform-policy/ (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/02/watch-facebook-ceo-mark-zuckerberg-takes-anti-vax-stance-violates-platform-policy/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on February 16, 2021, 09:34:56 PM

Some of the warning I've wrote about vaccines here would get me banned if I posted my concerns on Facebook. Social media's agenda is to get people to take the vaccines without question after they promote only positive news on vaccines. FaceBook CEO Mark Zuckerberg got caught saying we don't know the long term side affects of modifying people's DNA and RNA.[/size]


The vaccines were developed by the same folks that wish to depopulate the world, profiting from it yet, folks are lining up to get their shot. For me, that's actually enough reason to not take it but when you add in all of the other sh*t that the vaccines are already "known" to do, like kill the recipient and many cases make them sterile. Change their DNA to RNA for a platform system receptive to future vaccines, like whenTF does one take stock and say wait a minute here? This sh*t hasn't even been tested on animals which means, YOU are the animal. Wake up people
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on February 17, 2021, 06:04:08 AM
The vaccines were developed by the same folks that wish to depopulate the world, profiting from it yet, folks are lining up to get their shot. For me, that's actually enough reason to not take it but when you add in all of the other sh*t that the vaccines are already "known" to do, like kill the recipient and many cases make them sterile. Change their DNA to RNA for a platform system receptive to future vaccines, like whenTF does one take stock and say wait a minute here? This sh*t hasn't even been tested on animals which means, YOU are the animal. Wake up people
I'm not sure what information is good and bad regarding the vaccine, but at this time I'm going to have to take my chances with the virus.  I'm not interested in the vaccine as of yet. 

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on February 17, 2021, 10:50:24 AM
WaPo, CNN 'fact-checkers' silent as Harris falsely claims Biden
'starting from scratch' on vaccine rollout

http://www.foxnews.com/media/washington-post-cnn-fact-checkers-silent-kamala-harris-starting-from-scratch


CNN's Chris Cuomo continues blackout of brother's nursing home scandal,
MSNBC primetime hosts also avoid

http://www.foxnews.com/media/washington-post-cnn-fact-checkers-silent-kamala-harris-starting-from-scratch


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 17, 2021, 08:05:42 PM


In 2017, Moderna wrote DNA vaccines have a risk of permanently changing a person's DNA

http://newsubnormal.com/do-dna-vaccines-permanently-alter-dna/ (http://newsubnormal.com/do-dna-vaccines-permanently-alter-dna/)



Joe Biden said vaccines didn't exist when he took office. Joe forgot he got vaccinated in December

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/02/joe-biden-lies-anderson-cooper-cnn-town-hall-didnt-covid-vaccine-came-office-video/ (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/02/joe-biden-lies-anderson-cooper-cnn-town-hall-didnt-covid-vaccine-came-office-video/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on February 21, 2021, 05:29:31 PM
Recent news in the UK is that Boris wants to offer all over 18s the vaccine by 31st July this year:

http://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9282255/amp/Coronavirus-vaccine-adult-Britain-July-31st-Boris-accelerate-inoculation-drive.html

The Oxford vaccine is by far the most numerous that most people will have. However it's not proven to be as effective against some other strains such as the South African variant of the virus. It still gives some protection but it could be as little as 10 for mild to moderate cases, odds are it will help to avert more serious situations.

The speed up in the vaccination drive is theoretically good news for me. I wish to be our in the FSU this year, probably Ukraine so that would come in time to enjoy some good weather, theoretically. I'm itching to get back into play as I reckon I can potentially make a go off it :)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 23, 2021, 12:12:06 AM



Biden has something important to say pertaining to America's Coronavirus deaths. Can somebody tell me what he said?


http://twitter.com/FogCityMidge/status/1363990736887160835
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on February 23, 2021, 12:03:03 PM
Biden has something important to say pertaining to America's Coronavirus deaths. Can somebody tell me what he said?
Perhaps this will explain........
 (http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/bg022321dAPR20210223014504.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 24, 2021, 06:42:41 PM
Today I received my first COVID vaccination (Pfizer).   

In January when vaccinations first started becoming available to old coots like me, for two straight days I attempted to make an appointment.  The system failed, and it was frustrating to login again and again only to not connect.  Then a couple other outlets (e.g., limited number of pharmacies at grocery store chains - two in my county) started offering appointments, and I attempted that option only to have the same situation of high demand preventing a connection.   

Rather than continue this frustration,  when the State of Florida started a waiting list, I added my name and..................waited.  A few weeks later, I received a call.  Actually they may have been calling days earlier, but not recognizing the number I did not answer.  They called me on Monday and I made an appointment for two days later at a large state-run, drive-in facility (two in the county).   

The State sited the temporary facility at a former shopping mall, now empty.  It has acres of unused paved parking spaces, and the State used cones and National Guardsmen to organize a tortuous creeping queue akin to the lines at Disney World, ending 90 minutes later in a covered parking garage.  I parked in a designated area, and soon a specialist came to my window.  I gave a form, answered questions,  made an appointment for the second jab, and within 5 minutes drove away with vaccine coursing through my body.    Akin to voting in some states, no ID required.   Parked in another area for 15 minutes of observation, and then given the signal to depart.   
 
Evidently supply of vaccine is increasing.  One day after making the appointment, my hospital contacted me and offered appointments two weeks away.  I question now whether I should have waited and taken the hospital slot, assuming it is operated more efficiently. 

Anyway, I am on my way to near immunity.  I encourage everyone to become vaccinated.  We have a couple months of experience in America, and everything says the vaccine is functioning as expected.   I read the detailed pharmacology report, and feel confident in my decision.   

 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on February 24, 2021, 06:56:25 PM
In my city, they also worked out of a Sears store that had closed.

When they dropped the age limit to below my age, I simply walked in without appointment, showed DL for proof of age and residency in the state, got the shot and was done in 5 minutes.  Supposed to wait around for 15 minutes in case of adverse affects, but I left after 8 minutes or so.

They gave me appointment for 3 weeks hence, which I have now completed. 

Will be 2 weeks since second shot this coming  Friday, which is when full effectiveness achieved . . . Pfizer.

At first wife had said she might not get the vaccine.

But now she wants it.  Put her on State website sign up.  She will have a long way to go before age limit drops down to her; but depends on how much vaccine the state gets.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 24, 2021, 07:49:37 PM
I encourage everyone to become vaccinated.  We have a couple months of experience in America, and everything says the vaccine is functioning as expected.



I'm not going to take an mRNA based vaccine since some studies have not been concluded. To conclude some studies requires time and not enough time has pass to show mRNA vaccines being completely safe. I'd take a vaccine that's used a proven existing method in its creation which history shows to be safe but it seems only mRNA vaccines are available to Americans.


I'm not an Alex Jones fan but here's a 2010 video telling of a plan named 'Lock Step" by the Globalists to create a pandemic killing millions, shutting down everything, quarantining us, forced vaccines and making us wear masks. There will be more government control.


http://banthis.tv/watch?id=6036b7aee6c57d1942d13371 (http://banthis.tv/watch?id=6036b7aee6c57d1942d13371)

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 24, 2021, 10:09:51 PM

I'm not going to take an mRNA based vaccine since...

Genetic microbiology is complex.  My cousin enjoyed a long career doing such research at Los Alamos.  She eagerly went early in line to receive it. 

There could be some questions to ask if planning a baby, but not my concern.   

There are other options for you such as expected approval of J&J's vaccine.   It will not be available, however, in large supply until the summer.   

With all the variants mutating and evolving, I expect booster shots will be recommended  this year or next year regardless of the vaccine.   

Just continue to be careful with social distancing, etc.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on February 25, 2021, 08:10:14 AM
Genetic microbiology is complex.  My cousin enjoyed a long career doing such research at Los Alamos.  She eagerly went early in line to receive it. 

There could be some questions to ask if planning a baby, but not my concern.   

There are other options for you such as expected approval of J&J's vaccine.   It will not be available, however, in large supply until the summer.   

With all the variants mutating and evolving, I expect booster shots will be recommended  this year or next year regardless of the vaccine.   

Just continue to be careful with social distancing, etc.

Perhaps you're a bit quick to embrace an unproven technology? I won't be taking the vaccine anytime in the near future if at all ever. The saying goes if you've taken a pharmaceutical that wasn't even tested on animals then, you are the animal. Even the manufacturers of the vaccines refer to it as an operating system which indicates there is plenty more to come. The players involved and the rush to get an injection into every body on earth doesn't give you caution?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on February 25, 2021, 08:22:38 AM
The virus doesn't change our DNA?  Living changes our DNA.

Choose your poison.

Me?  I'll take the vaccination.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on February 25, 2021, 08:32:27 AM
The virus doesn't change our DNA?  Living changes our DNA.

Choose your poison.

Me?  I'll take the vaccination.

Exactly. The vaxx alters your immune system with the introduction mRNA. Many contend our immune system doesn't need or require an alteration to do what it does naturally. I would be one of those. I can't for the life of me think of one good reason to take Big Pharma's poison and nano particles.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on February 25, 2021, 08:45:22 AM
Of course your choice FP, one I hope you and your loved ones never have to regret.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on February 25, 2021, 08:51:33 AM
It is currently my choice, yes. I certainly hope you and your loved ones do not regret your choice, too.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 25, 2021, 10:35:04 AM
It seems like every week there are commercials on late night TV saying if you took a certain medicine you may be eligible to participate in a class action suit. These medicines have had 5+ years of study done on them and were deemed safe before it is discovered they were not safe at all. Because of how things are rushed and MRNA is a new technology to create vaccines, nobody should be forced to take the vaccine And nobody should be upset at people that don’t want to take the vaccine 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 26, 2021, 11:00:59 PM


I may take the Johnson and Johnson vaccine which uses a harmless cold coronavirus to train the immune system to attack. This technology been used to make vaccines in the past. It's less effective than mRNA vaccines but nobody has died after acquiring COVID. In other words, the Johnson and Johnson vaccine can help with survival if it doesn't stop the Coronavirus in its tracks. Also, other benefits include it's more easier to store and people will need only one shot instead of two.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/johnson-johnson-covid-vaccine-cleared-for-expected-fda-authorization-within-days/ar-BB1e3vdc?ocid=msedgntp (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/johnson-johnson-covid-vaccine-cleared-for-expected-fda-authorization-within-days/ar-BB1e3vdc?ocid=msedgntp)


When this WHO article was written in late Jan, they still have not approved mRNA vaccines for emergency use.

http://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/the-moderna-covid-19-mrna-1273-vaccine-what-you-need-to-know (http://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/the-moderna-covid-19-mrna-1273-vaccine-what-you-need-to-know)


Ivy League school University of Pennsylvania questions the safety of mRNA since not enough studies have been conducted on it. If Gator changes his name to Crocodile, he may be experiencing the harmful effects of the vaccine.

http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/cep/COVID/mRNA%20vaccine%20review%20final.pdf (http://www.uphs.upenn.edu/cep/COVID/mRNA%20vaccine%20review%20final.pdf)


Covid stats on Florida and NY. Who did better?

http://gab.com/F16VIPER01/posts/105796801213912326 (http://gab.com/F16VIPER01/posts/105796801213912326)


Biden said vaccines didn't exist when he came into office but here is evidence of him getting the vaccine shot not once, but twice! How did he forget that experience? Dementia.

http://gab.com/F16VIPER01/posts/105796807390847060 (http://gab.com/F16VIPER01/posts/105796807390847060)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on February 27, 2021, 06:13:45 AM

I may take the Johnson and Johnson vaccine which uses a harmless cold coronavirus to train the immune system to attack. This technology been used to make vaccines in the past. It's less effective than mRNA vaccines but nobody has died after acquiring COVID. In other words, the Johnson and Johnson vaccine can help with survival if it doesn't stop the Coronavirus in its tracks. Also, other benefits include it's more easier to store and people will need only one shot instead of two.



Did you know if you take the vaxx,

You can still catch the virus?
You can pass the virus to others?
You will still need to wear a mask?
You will still need to social distance?
You will need more shots?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 27, 2021, 12:54:34 PM
Did you know if you take the vaxx,

You can still catch the virus?
You can pass the virus to others?
You will still need to wear a mask?
You will still need to social distance?
You will need more shots?


Yes and I also know my step father's sister in law died from COVID, my wife's uncle spent a month in the hospital and almost died, and my friend had to go to the hospital 3 times, got blood clots in his lungs and the doctors now tell him he's got to be on medication 6 months and on next hospital visit, they'll determine if he needs to be on oxygen bottles. He may have permanent lung damage. A couple of people who survived told me COVID has been the worst experience in their life.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 28, 2021, 08:19:44 AM
Did you know if you take the vaxx,

You can still catch the virus?
You can pass the virus to others?
You will still need to wear a mask?
You will still need to social distance?
You will need more shots?

Yes, but meanwhile the risk of death is virtually eliminated.  The same can almost be said about experiencing severe symptoms if infected. 

Hence, I wanted to be jabbed.  Afterwards, I felt some fatigue for three days.  I don't know if this means I would have been one of those who would have experienced severe symptoms if I were infected before the vaccine 

BTW, the social distancing requirements will depend upon whether your government is red or blue.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on February 28, 2021, 08:51:36 AM
Yes, but meanwhile the risk of death is virtually eliminated.  The same can almost be said about experiencing severe symptoms if infected. 

Hence, I wanted to be jabbed.  Afterwards, I felt some fatigue for three days.  I don't know if this means I would have been one of those who would have experienced severe symptoms if I were infected before the vaccine 

BTW, the social distancing requirements will depend upon whether your government is red or blue.   

Well, not so fast.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/at-least-273-deaths-9845-adverse-events-after-covid-vaccination-so-far-cdc-data (http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/at-least-273-deaths-9845-adverse-events-after-covid-vaccination-so-far-cdc-data)

Gator old friend sometimes I question your critical thinking skills after such a post. Fauci and his minions are telling us after the vaxx 1) we can still get the virus 2) Spread the virus to others 3) need more vaxx. With this info alone and knowing what is actually in the vaxx itself including the manipulation to the human immune system do you not question "why" or how the vaxx is an improvement? What is the purpose of the vaxx? Don't try to over think the entire scenario. As an instructor taught me once KISS, "keep it simple stupid".


Yes and I also know my step father's sister in law died from COVID, my wife's uncle spent a month in the hospital and almost died, and my friend had to go to the hospital 3 times, got blood clots in his lungs and the doctors now tell him he's got to be on medication 6 months and on next hospital visit, they'll determine if he needs to be on oxygen bottles. He may have permanent lung damage. A couple of people who survived told me COVID has been the worst experience in their life.

Sorry to hear about your relatives Billy. But, at this point it's very likely we all know someone who has died from the virus. Or rather, perhaps died from the treatment of the virus? We're being lied to, question everything. Those who once supposedly had our best health and interests in mind maybe, are following a different agenda. What happened to the seasonal flu?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on February 28, 2021, 11:37:12 AM
Well, not so fast.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/at-least-273-deaths-9845-adverse-events-after-covid-vaccination-so-far-cdc-data (http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/at-least-273-deaths-9845-adverse-events-after-covid-vaccination-so-far-cdc-data)

Deaths were mostly within 48 hours of vaccination which begs the question about cause of death.   More study is necessary. 


Quote
Gator old friend sometimes I question your critical thinking skills after such a post. Fauci and his minions are telling us after the vaxx 1) we can still get the virus 2) Spread the virus to others 3) need more vaxx.

Fauci's pronouncements for the past year have revealed him to be a) wrong about some scientific conclusions, b) untrustworthy because sometimes when wrong he knew better,  c) protective of his bureaucracy,  and  d) completely partisan.    Those four can not be refuted.  In addition, Fauci may even have some financial stake in the matter.  IMO, Fauci should be prohibited from speaking publicly. 
 

The old coot will not be replaced, so we must be suspicious of what he says.     Nevertheless, much of what he has said is collaborated  by results of scientific research.  One backhanded compliment - Fauci is not nearly as bad as my old employer, WHO.   :D



Quote
What is the purpose of the vaxx? Don't try to over think the entire scenario. As an instructor taught me once KISS, "keep it simple stupid".

KISS I   - It protects me   Such was proven in the efficacy data from the clinical trials. 

KISS II  - It protects people around me from me.   


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on February 28, 2021, 06:10:19 PM
Deaths were mostly within 48 hours of vaccination which begs the question about cause of death.   More study is necessary. 

Actually more study was needed before they ever rolled the vaxx out for mass distribution. It would appear from the surface anyway, the vaxx itself is killing folks and making many more ill. Which pretty much flies in the face of your earlier statement. I mentioned to you once before that when Big Pharma gets something inside you that wasn't even tested on animals means, you are the animal

Quote
Fauci's pronouncements for the past year have revealed him to be a) wrong about some scientific conclusions, b) untrustworthy because sometimes when wrong he knew better,  c) protective of his bureaucracy,  and  d) completely partisan.    Those four can not be refuted.  In addition, Fauci may even have some financial stake in the matter.  IMO, Fauci should be prohibited from speaking publicly.
 

The old coot will not be replaced, so we must be suspicious of what he says.     Nevertheless, much of what he has said is collaborated  by results of scientific research.  One backhanded compliment - Fauci is not nearly as bad as my old employer, WHO.   :D
 

Fauci is a walking contradiction. It'd be hard to find anyone (with the possible exception of Joey Bribes Bidan) that has stuck their foot in their mouth as much as Fauci. Fauci was trusted by the American people initially because of his title. Little does the public know of his association and partnerships with the anti population crew of Gates, Soros and Moderna. Why isn't this even mentioned on the Fake news media? His connection to the Wuhan lab through and even prior to the Obama Admin is documented. The man is the last person our nation should look to for medical advice IMO


Quote
KISS I   - It protects me   Such was proven in the efficacy data from the clinical trials. 

It's unproven and unknown. The folks with the data are lying to us. The question is why?

Quote
KISS II  - It protects people around me from me.

Their admission is that you can still spread the virus and be infected even after the vaxx. You're a grown man if you feel better with the vaxx, take it. Personally, I fail to see any benefit to injecting unknown nano particles developed by some of the most evil people on earth into my body. Call me crazy but I also see no point in changing or redirecting my immune system. There is something inherently wrong with that. I know many people who have taken the vaxx. I can't understand so many lining up to get it based on the false and lying data we have been given
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on February 28, 2021, 06:35:48 PM

It's unproven and unknown. The folks with the data are lying to us. The question is why?

Their admission is that you can still spread the virus and be infected even after the vaxx. You're a grown man if you feel better with the vaxx, take it. Personally, I fail to see any benefit to injecting unknown nano particles developed by some of the most evil people on earth into my body. Call me crazy but I also see no point in changing or redirecting my immune system. There is something inherently wrong with that. I know many people who have taken the vaxx. I can't understand so many lining up to get it based on the false and lying data we have been given
While I'm not taking the vax at this time,  I do think much of your reasoning is crazy.    My belief is the docs aren't evil, and aren't giving false and lying data. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on February 28, 2021, 07:24:31 PM
We're being lied to, question everything. Those who once supposedly had our best health and interests in mind maybe, are following a different agenda. What happened to the seasonal flu?



While big pharma and our government sees opportunity to capitalize on the pandemic and the possible never ending need to create stimulus packages where 75% of the money goes to everything but COVID related issues, the fact is the virus is here to stay. Vaccines won't protect us forever so there's a constant threat. By slowing down the spread of COVID with social distancing and masks, we nearly eliminated flus and colds. Based on a CDC chart I showed Gator earlier, America has 5000 to 20,000 more deaths per week than normal. 20,000 extra deaths per week would amount to 25% of the deaths in America for that week. These extra deaths are not due to increased suicides, guns shots, other illnesses or diseases. It's related to COVID. I don't agree entirely with what the left or right is saying about COVID. Some action needs to be taken but not too much that will severely impact our freedoms and economy. We must find a balance because COVID isn't going away anytime soon. Without any action taken, COVID will significantly impact our life expectancy by about a dozen years they estimate. Although we have a high chance of survival in our younger years, the fact is we can get this disease over and over and it will eventually it will take us out in our advanced years.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on February 28, 2021, 10:20:11 PM

While big pharma and our government sees opportunity to capitalize on the pandemic and the possible never ending need to create stimulus packages where 75% of the money goes to everything but COVID related issues, the fact is the virus is here to stay. Vaccines won't protect us forever so there's a constant threat. By slowing down the spread of COVID with social distancing and masks, we nearly eliminated flus and colds. Based on a CDC chart I showed Gator earlier, America has 5000 to 20,000 more deaths per week than normal. 20,000 extra deaths per week would amount to 25% of the deaths in America for that week. These extra deaths are not due to increased suicides, guns shots, other illnesses or diseases. It's related to COVID. I don't agree entirely with what the left or right is saying about COVID. Some action needs to be taken but not too much that will severely impact our freedoms and economy. We must find a balance because COVID isn't going away anytime soon. Without any action taken, COVID will significantly impact our life expectancy by about a dozen years they estimate. Although we have a high chance of survival in our younger years, the fact is we can get this disease over and over and it will eventually it will take us out in our advanced years.

Wake up Billy, you've been blue pilled. Covid unlike the flu and other viruses we haven't been allowed to develop herd immunity through fear. Covid likely is different in many ways and one way is, it is manipulated in many ways. The fear, the treatment and the accounting. Yes covid is real but, it kills less than 1% of those infected. Look at the bigger picture, it has been the election virus. They are lying to us and they control the narrative
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 01, 2021, 12:08:36 AM
Yes covid is real but, it kills less than 1% of those infected.



1% if people are a certain age. Odds of dying significantly go up as we get older and we all will get older. Based on how many people died per week in America over what is expected, it's more than 1%. When left unchecked, COVID was easily the number #1 killer of Americans last year and only a fraction of Americans were infected. This virus is a biological weapon. It is significantly more dangerous than the flu. Even at 1% it would be 10 times more deadlier than the flu. I understand big pharma, doctors and politicians will exploit this virus for their benefit but it is a virus harmful enough that action is needed to be taken to combat it. Although Trump doesn't want to limit people's freedoms, he still understands some action is needed and he pumped a lot of money into finding vaccines and treatments for COVID.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 01, 2021, 02:57:32 AM
Yes covid is real but, it kills less than 1% of those infected. Look at the bigger picture, it has been the election virus. They are lying to us and they control the narrative
You need to look at the bigger picture. Initially Covid killed 5%,it has been brought down to 1% due to the awareness. But if left unchecked and without cure or vaccine, the virus might mutate and start killing 10%. Impossible? Look at what the Spanish Flu accomplished.This is the danger of COVID, that a dangerous mutation will take place before it can be effectively treated.And that is the reason for the panic and restrictions, not the current killrate.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 01, 2021, 06:31:21 AM
Wake up Billy, you've been blue pilled. Covid unlike the flu and other viruses we haven't been allowed to develop herd immunity through fear. Covid likely is different in many ways and one way is, it is manipulated in many ways. The fear, the treatment and the accounting. Yes covid is real but, it kills less than 1% of those infected. Look at the bigger picture, it has been the election virus. They are lying to us and they control the narrative
An election virus.    The world was been harmed all due to 'an election virus' in the US?  I really don't think so. 

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 01, 2021, 06:33:53 AM
You need to look at the bigger picture. Initially Covid killed 5%,it has been brought down to 1% due to the awareness. But if left unchecked and without cure or vaccine, the virus might mutate and start killing 10%. Impossible? Look at what the Spanish Flu accomplished.This is the danger of COVID, that a dangerous mutation will take place before it can be effectively treated.And that is the reason for the panic and restrictions, not the current killrate.
That is one of the better points I've read.  The virus is currently killing mainly the unhealthy or old, with some exceptions.   There is nothing written in stone that states the virus won't mutate in a way that makes it more deadly for the rest of the populace. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 01, 2021, 07:26:19 AM

1% if people are a certain age. Odds of dying significantly go up as we get older and we all will get older. Based on how many people died per week in America over what is expected, it's more than 1%. When left unchecked, COVID was easily the number #1 killer of Americans last year and only a fraction of Americans were infected. This virus is a biological weapon. It is significantly more dangerous than the flu. Even at 1% it would be 10 times more deadlier than the flu. I understand big pharma, doctors and politicians will exploit this virus for their benefit but it is a virus harmful enough that action is needed to be taken to combat it. Although Trump doesn't want to limit people's freedoms, he still understands some action is needed and he pumped a lot of money into finding vaccines and treatments for COVID.

Not even close Billy. Covid wasn't the leading killer last year anywhere on the globe. You've bought into the fake news media hook, line and sinker. Limiting people's freedom does not in anyway affect the virus. Wake up and come out of that blue pill stuper you're in
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 01, 2021, 07:41:38 AM
You need to look at the bigger picture. Initially Covid killed 5%,it has been brought down to 1% due to the awareness. But if left unchecked and without cure or vaccine, the virus might mutate and start killing 10%. Impossible? Look at what the Spanish Flu accomplished.This is the danger of COVID, that a dangerous mutation will take place before it can be effectively treated.And that is the reason for the panic and restrictions, not the current killrate.

The bigger picture eh? Here's the bigger picture I do see, The same folks looking to inject the world with poison are also the same people who promote and support de-population of the earth. These people are also in leadership positions at the UN, CDC and WHO along with a vaccine that is at least not good for us and at worst will kill us. Yet they are trying to convince the entire world (and doing a pretty good job of it) that taking the vaccine, locking down in your house, losing your jobs, wearing a mask and staying away from others is the only way. Sheep led to slaughter. Do you recall the claim that we must lock down for two weeks to flatten the curve? Take a look at where we are now.

Covid hasn't killed 5% of the infected at anytime, less than 1% and most of those with underlying conditions. Wake up shadow and take a look at the reality. Any mutations from covid will only be weakened from the original as all viruses are but, that isn't in the narrative being delivered to you. But, not to worry. When the world catches on to the fraud they will simply release another more deadly virus designed to kill more than covid-19 did. They want most of the population dead, remember that. The people in control of this virus and the supposed cure/remedy that will never come are lying to you. Yes, on a grand, world scale. It's time to wake up, you've slept long enough
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 01, 2021, 09:38:37 AM

It's unproven and unknown.  The folks with the data are lying to us.


Efficacy and safety have been proven by  large clinical trials for four independently developed vaccines using two entirely different platforms ( mRNA and adeno). 

To believe all four of these studies are fake is ludicrous in my opinion.  The clinical trials involved thousands of scientists and hundreds of thousands of volunteers, and were overseen by independent regulatory agencies in the US and Europe.  To have all conspire together is impossible. 

Now add to these four vaccines the other vaccines developed in Russia and China.   Now add the millions of mass vaccinations after the trials were approved.  All is good - they  support the clinical trial findings. 

Yes, the news media has proven itself to be dishonest if not corrupt regarding political matters.  Yet, there is too much consistency not to believe the integrity of these vaccine developments. 

You are correct that more scientific information will be reported, especially given the necessity to develop the vaccines at warp speed.  Your cited report yesterday mainly about what happened 48 hours after vaccination is one example.  I believe the ongoing research will likely show we need booster shots, or as some contend administer both an mRNA and adeno vaccine (such is now off label).    I believe the odds are the future scientific news will be better than we thought, much better.  For example, I believe what some knowledgeable scientists now theorize - the vaccines are eliciting T-cell response , something incredibly good if true. 

FP, I recall you became ill with some COVID symptoms last year.  I suggest you become tested for antibodies.  Given your reluctance, a test would help you decide whether to wait for more information.  If you don't have antibodies, I believe your life and the lives of your loved ones would be better protected if you were vaccinated.  But some individual freedoms still remain in the US.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 01, 2021, 10:29:12 AM
The bigger picture eh? Here's the bigger picture I do see, The same folks looking to inject the world with poison are also the same people who promote and support de-population of the earth. These people are also in leadership positions at the UN, CDC and WHO along with a vaccine that is at least not good for us and at worst will kill us. Yet they are trying to convince the entire world (and doing a pretty good job of it) that taking the vaccine, locking down in your house, losing your jobs, wearing a mask and staying away from others is the only way. Sheep led to slaughter. Do you recall the claim that we must lock down for two weeks to flatten the curve? Take a look at where we are now.

Covid hasn't killed 5% of the infected at anytime, less than 1% and most of those with underlying conditions. Wake up shadow and take a look at the reality. Any mutations from covid will only be weakened from the original as all viruses are but, that isn't in the narrative being delivered to you. But, not to worry. When the world catches on to the fraud they will simply release another more deadly virus designed to kill more than covid-19 did. They want most of the population dead, remember that. The people in control of this virus and the supposed cure/remedy that will never come are lying to you. Yes, on a grand, world scale. It's time to wake up, you've slept long enough
How about reading back this topic and seeing Americans gloat that Italy has a 10% death rate and they much lower due to the supreme 'murrican health care. Now the US has 25% of the worlds cases it is the NWO that makes the vaccins Is there any conspiracy theory you do NOT believe?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 01, 2021, 10:46:33 AM
Efficacy and safety have been proven by  large clinical trials for four independently developed vaccines using two entirely different platforms ( mRNA and adeno). 

To believe all four of these studies are fake is ludicrous in my opinion.  The clinical trials involved thousands of scientists and hundreds of thousands of volunteers, and were overseen by independent regulatory agencies in the US and Europe.  To have all conspire together is impossible. 

Now add to these four vaccines the other vaccines developed in Russia and China.   Now add the millions of mass vaccinations after the trials were approved.  All is good - they  support the clinical trial findings. 

Yes, the news media has proven itself to be dishonest if not corrupt regarding political matters.  Yet, there is too much consistency not to believe the integrity of these vaccine developments. 

You are correct that more scientific information will be reported, especially given the necessity to develop the vaccines at warp speed.  Your cited report yesterday mainly about what happened 48 hours after vaccination is one example.  I believe the ongoing research will likely show we need booster shots, or as some contend administer both an mRNA and adeno vaccine (such is now off label).    I believe the odds are the future scientific news will be better than we thought, much better.  For example, I believe what some knowledgeable scientists now theorize - the vaccines are eliciting T-cell response , something incredibly good if true. 

FP, I recall you became ill with some COVID symptoms last year.  I suggest you become tested for antibodies.  Given your reluctance, a test would help you decide whether to wait for more information.  If you don't have antibodies, I believe your life and the lives of your loved ones would be better protected if you were vaccinated.  But some individual freedoms still remain in the US.

Gator I am not trying to convince you or anyone about the problems with the vaccines, their dangers, origins or the evil intent behind them. I'm just telling you there is much more to this than you, I or any other John Q Public is aware of. First, I caution you to get out of the gas lighting and allow your thought and reasoning skills to take over and think for yourself. I am steadfast against any vaccine for covid-19. It is not needed and there is a reason they are pushing it on the world post haste. Without going into and rehashing all of the therapeutics, there is also herd immunity that has been stopped at all costs. There is a plethora of information out there that you won't hear or see on MSM. Turn off the news, it's killing us. Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm putting out some very real truth, believe what you will. If you don't question the vaccines, question the folks trying to get it into you.

Yes, I had all the symptoms of covid back in Feb 2020 before it was even supposed to be in this country. It was a horrible 3 weeks. Knowing what I know now, thankfully I didn't go to the hospital or I could have easily been one of the covid statistics and killed from the treatment. I do not and will not take any test or vaccine associated with covid, even the anti bodies test. It is a scam. The tests are highly unreliable (they've recently admitted that) false positives galore for covid.

Those individual freedoms you mention are disappearing quickly. You should pay closer attention. You are a smart man of high intellect. I respect that about you but you do seem to be relying on the big pharms and MSM's info and press releases for your health and education. I would advise you to do that research yourself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKcSNrGf4dE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKcSNrGf4dE)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 01, 2021, 10:52:04 AM
How about reading back this topic and seeing Americans gloat that Italy has a 10% death rate and they much lower due to the supreme 'murrican health care. Now the US has 25% of the worlds cases it is the NWO that makes the vaccins Is there any conspiracy theory you do NOT believe?

Let's just toss out "conspiracy theory" and shut down all conversation eh? Everything about covid-19 has been wrong, the virus, the transmission, the tests, the vaxx, everything. Yet we should still follow blindly the information coming from the same people that wish us dead. You don't see the insanity of that? Go ahead brother, get your vaxx, put on your mask and shut your mouth. That's the best we can do for humanity?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 01, 2021, 11:43:10 AM
Let's just toss out "conspiracy theory" and shut down all conversation eh? Everything about covid-19 has been wrong, the virus, the transmission, the tests, the vaxx, everything. Yet we should still follow blindly the information coming from the same people that wish us dead. You don't see the insanity of that? Go ahead brother, get your vaxx, put on your mask and shut your mouth. That's the best we can do for humanity?
You can just answer the question, no need to get hostile.FYI MrsShadow does not trust the vaxx for COVID, though other vaccines are ok.And we have had symptoms in October 2019, after our trainer returned from the Wushu chamionships in China where hi daughter caught an unknown virus. As usual, far ahead of you....
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 01, 2021, 12:11:51 PM
You can just answer the question, no need to get hostile.FYI MrsShadow does not trust the vaxx for COVID, though other vaccines are ok.And we have had symptoms in October 2019, after our trainer returned from the Wushu chamionships in China where hi daughter caught an unknown virus. As usual, far ahead of you....

Shadow I'm not hostile. We've known each other for a long time, agreed and disagreed on many topics. Like Gator I am not trying to convince you of anything. You'll believe what you believe and I'm okay with that. I do however feel the need to put out some of my opinion on what I perceive as bad information. This is a discussion forum, no? There is so much bad information, glossed over information coming from the MSM and the worse part it is being believed, without question.

My apologies, your post looked like more of a statement to me, than a question. There are millions of conspiracy theories that I don't believe. I don't see what I am stating, here, as a conspiracy theory. I see the entire covid fear, testing and vaxx as a conspiracy. Science being hijacked by those with bad intentions and zero concern for humanity. I'm not looking for anyone to agree with me. I've come to my opinion and conclusions through my research. Frankly I could not care less but I do emphasize, research it for yourself and come to your own conclusions. Not blindly accepting the Davos and UN plans for your lives. Whether you vaxx or not is up to you. All I have left to say to you is "I tried to tell you"
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 01, 2021, 01:47:55 PM
Shadow I'm not hostile. We've known each other for a long time, agreed and disagreed on many topics. Like Gator I am not trying to convince you of anything. You'll believe what you believe and I'm okay with that. I do however feel the need to put out some of my opinion on what I perceive as bad information. This is a discussion forum, no? There is so much bad information, glossed over information coming from the MSM and the worse part it is being believed, without question.

My apologies, your post looked like more of a statement to me, than a question. There are millions of conspiracy theories that I don't believe. I don't see what I am stating, here, as a conspiracy theory. I see the entire covid fear, testing and vaxx as a conspiracy. Science being hijacked by those with bad intentions and zero concern for humanity. I'm not looking for anyone to agree with me. I've come to my opinion and conclusions through my research. Frankly I could not care less but I do emphasize, research it for yourself and come to your own conclusions. Not blindly accepting the Davos and UN plans for your lives. Whether you vaxx or not is up to you. All I have left to say to you is "I tried to tell you"
FP, I understand you and while we may disagree, you always have my respect as a person.Now I understand concerns about the fast development of the vaccines. On the other hand considering the amount of money to be earned from it, it would not be a surprise that companies put all of their best resources to this task.The thing that I find over the top s the 'they want us dead' ideas. Sorry but from people who can not keep a BJ secret I do not expect a hidden world organization, no matter how long the rumours have been flying.If they  truly wanted to kill a lot of the population , all needed was to tell people to ignore COVID-19 and consider it nothing more than a flu variant which kills only a few old people.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 01, 2021, 03:22:59 PM
FP, I understand you and while we may disagree, you always have my respect as a person.Now I understand concerns about the fast development of the vaccines. On the other hand considering the amount of money to be earned from it, it would not be a surprise that companies put all of their best resources to this task.The thing that I find over the top s the 'they want us dead' ideas. Sorry but from people who can not keep a BJ secret I do not expect a hidden world organization, no matter how long the rumours have been flying.If they  truly wanted to kill a lot of the population , all needed was to tell people to ignore COVID-19 and consider it nothing more than a flu variant which kills only a few old people.

We'll disagree on a hidden world organization. There is a cabal, it's hidden in plain sight and they have a plan. It has become painfully obvious to me that covid and/or the vaxx is part of that plan. Rarely does anything happen by chance especially when there are profit motivations. 50 more pharma companies could enter the current covid vaxx market and they all be profitable. If they have their way all 7.8 billion people on earth will take the vaxx. This isn't about a virus. If it were it would have been handled as equal viruses in the past have been. It's about control, politics and profit. More importantly it is about murder. It's very likely a bioweapon

They do want to kill a large portion of the worlds population. We are literally witnessing Nazi Germany all over again. If the population doesn't wake up soon, we'll be living it again. They do have a plan and for now it is about putting poison into every one's body. It can only get worse from there
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 01, 2021, 09:20:22 PM
Not even close Billy. Covid wasn't the leading killer last year anywhere on the globe. You've bought into the fake news media hook, line and sinker. Limiting people's freedom does not in anyway affect the virus. Wake up and come out of that blue pill stuper you're in


Since COVID came on the scene, 5000-20,000 more Americans are dying every week than what is expected. This is happening. People who have survived may also get temporary or lifelong organ damage. I blame the excess deaths on COVID. You can blame the excess deaths on drownings, drug overdoses or whatever you want but the excess deaths are happening.


http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm#dashboard


Efficacy and safety have been proven by  large clinical trials for four independently developed vaccines using two entirely different platforms ( mRNA and adeno). 


Some experts in the field cautioned the numbers put out by the manufacture's of the vaccine was done through a press release and they and the government are motivated to get the public to support the vaccines. The true efficacy numbers will come later after the vaccines are administered outside of a labratory.


We'll disagree on a hidden world organization. There is a cabal, it's hidden in plain sight and they have a plan.



I'm starting to believe there is a cabal that has blackmail material on a lot of our politicians and judges based on their behavior of ignoring election fraud. SCOTUS Chief Justice Roberts used to be a conservative judge and now rules with the liberal judges. He has a history of falling and getting black eyes. Last time it happened, he was unconscious and had to be taken to the hospital. He kept this injury secret for two weeks until journalists probed him for answers to the injuries to his face. Mitt Romney has moved to the left the last few years. I think somebody has blackmail material on him. They must not have liked something he done. Today it was reported Romney fell and got a black eye which left him unconscious.


Romney knocked unconscious, suffers black eye during fall (nypost.com) (http://nypost.com/2021/03/01/romney-knocked-unconscious-suffers-black-eye-during-fall/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 01, 2021, 09:35:32 PM

Since COVID came on the scene, 5000-20,000 more Americans are dying every week than what is expected. This is happening. People who have survived may also get temporary or lifelong organ damage. I blame the excess deaths on COVID. You can blame the excess deaths on drownings, drug overdoses or whatever you want but the excess deaths are happening.


Fake news. I would think that you of all people would have done your research and know better. Never expect the liar to tell you the truth




Quote
I'm starting to believe there is a cabal that has blackmail material on a lot of our politicians and judges based on their behavior of ignoring election fraud. SCOTUS Chief Justice Roberts used to be a conservative judge and now rules with the liberal judges. He has a history of falling and getting black eyes. Last time it happened, he was unconscious and had to be taken to the hospital. He kept this injury secret for two weeks until journalists probed him for answers to the injuries to his face. Mitt Romney has moved to the left the last few years. I think somebody has blackmail material on him. They must not have liked something he done. Today it was reported Romney fell and got a black eye which left him unconscious.


There is definitely a cabal and blackmail is only one of the elements that connect them. Brother there is so much information about it both right in your face and available yet, totally ignored. BTW black eyes have a very different meaning than what you are seeing
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 01, 2021, 09:41:13 PM
Fake news. I would think that you of all people would have done your research and know better. Never expect the liar to tell you the truth



Even Trump took action on COVID. China didn't release a harmless virus. It's a virus that belongs in level 4 labs which house the most deadly pathogens known to man. Let the virus run loose without taking action, you'll have refrigerated trucks sitting outside hospitals to take the dead to the graveyards. If it was a harmless virus or a virus no deadlier than the flu, Trump wouldn't have taken the action he took starting with a travel ban.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 02, 2021, 01:22:57 AM
We'll disagree on a hidden world organization. There is a cabal, it's hidden in plain sight and they have a plan. It has become painfully obvious to me that covid and/or the vaxx is part of that plan. Rarely does anything happen by chance especially when there are profit motivations. 50 more pharma companies could enter the current covid vaxx market and they all be profitable. If they have their way all 7.8 billion people on earth will take the vaxx. This isn't about a virus. If it were it would have been handled as equal viruses in the past have been. It's about control, politics and profit. More importantly it is about murder. It's very likely a bioweapon

They do want to kill a large portion of the worlds population. We are literally witnessing Nazi Germany all over again. If the population doesn't wake up soon, we'll be living it again. They do have a plan and for now it is about putting poison into every one's body. It can only get worse from there
Think about it. If the plan is to kill most of the world population why throw billions at research, support plans an vaccines. All you need to do is convince those people the virus is near harmless and then see them get killed. Job done.These people with their pln must be full idiots to use all that money for something they can get for free.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 02, 2021, 06:40:38 AM
We'll disagree on a hidden world organization. There is a cabal, it's hidden in plain sight and they have a plan.

If true, who could be the cabal?  To answer that, we must ask who would benefit and how?   But before that, we need to know how the vaccination will affect humans negatively.

COVID originated in China, so any analysis of a cabal starts with China.    If you believe the vaxx will eventually result in the early death of the recipient, that rules out China as the cabal because China needs a growing world population to consume its manufacturing goods.  Besides China disclosed the genome sequencing early in the pandemic, knowing it would speed development of vaccinations.  Also, China vaccinates its own people.

Who is the next suspect?   The climate change theorists?   

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 02, 2021, 07:21:14 AM
Think about it. If the plan is to kill most of the world population why throw billions at research, support plans an vaccines. All you need to do is convince those people the virus is near harmless and then see them get killed. Job done.These people with their pln must be full idiots to use all that money for something they can get for free.

It is a rabbit hole Shadow. Suppose that the virus is near harmless. It's not totally harmless but it isn't any different than other viruses mankind has dealt with. What is different is the manufactured, planned response to it. The idea to get a new untested, hurried vaxx into everyone on earth. The after effects, side effects and consequences be dammed. You can't sue them and Big Pharma is protected. The billions are miniscule to the quad trillions they stand to make. But even that isn't their end goal.

 They have been planning it for years and what's worse is they have been telling us all along. Dr Bill Gates the scientist, no wait, he's neither a doctor or a scientist. He's just a man with a computer platform background. Have you noticed his relationship with Tony Fauci and George Soros?

Here is Gates almost 10 years ago telling us the end goal. Included in it is the justification with junk science. Reducing the population by 15% equates 1 billion people. That isn't all their plan calls for but this very likely is the beginning of a controlled genocide. The treatment for covid has been the killer, not covid. Why was effective therapeutics ignored and anyone attempting to tell the world cancelled?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc16H3uHKOA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gc16H3uHKOA)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 02, 2021, 07:31:10 AM

Even Trump took action on COVID. China didn't release a harmless virus. It's a virus that belongs in level 4 labs which house the most deadly pathogens known to man. Let the virus run loose without taking action, you'll have refrigerated trucks sitting outside hospitals to take the dead to the graveyards. If it was a harmless virus or a virus no deadlier than the flu, Trump wouldn't have taken the action he took starting with a travel ban.

More fake news. The virus hit the world scene almost instantly. Trump had no choice but to react to the fear being pumped to the masses 24/7.  Perhaps this was a pre-planned pandemic to be executed when needed? Trump did tell the world to not let the cure to be worse than the disease and that is exactly whats been happening. Turn off your TV news Billy and research. Get out of the media fog.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 02, 2021, 07:53:22 AM
If true, who could be the cabal?  To answer that, we must ask who would benefit and how?   But before that, we need to know how the vaccination will affect humans negatively.


There's that Gator I've come to know and love. Good question. Many of the front line players are fairly easily recognizable. It is their puppet masters that are more difficult. Who controls over 90% of the worlds wealth? The world central bankers? That would be a correct answer but, who controls them and what else connects them? Perhaps it isn't "all" about money and profits?

Quote
COVID originated in China, so any analysis of a cabal starts with China.    If you believe the vaxx will eventually result in the early death of the recipient, that rules out China as the cabal because China needs a growing world population to consume its manufacturing goods.  Besides China disclosed the genome sequencing early in the pandemic, knowing it would speed development of vaccinations.  Also, China vaccinates its own people.

Viruses have supposedly been on earth for 1000's or millions of years, no? Who knows where they originated? We have a pretty good idea where covid-19 originated (corona virus identification #19). Doesn't that tell us and the fact it was patented, that it is a manipulated manufactured virus? Is it really that hard to understand? Is it a bioweapon and could their be a consortium or a cabal behind it? Couldn't they have just unleashed an Ebola-19 virus? Sure they could have but with ebola they couldn't control the spread or the cure. Real science is an amazing thing, hijacked and fake science can look as real as rain, too.

Quote
Who is the next suspect?   The climate change theorists? 


The next suspect for what? You and I will never agree on climate change aka global warming or what ever is the next moniker. The earth has been warming since the ice age at pretty much the same rate. The idea that man can change that short of many multiple nuclear explosions is junk science. Further that taxing earths inhabitants will stop it is nothing more than fantasy. However, Dr Bill Gates the scientist does have a plan for sun blocking ions and supposedly a satelite for changing weather patterns. Do you subscribe to that? I'm not being a smart ass I would like your honest opinion on it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 02, 2021, 08:09:52 AM
COVID originated in China, so any analysis of a cabal starts with China.    If you believe the vaxx will eventually result in the early death of the recipient, that rules out China as the cabal because China needs a growing world population to consume its manufacturing goods.  Besides China disclosed the genome sequencing early in the pandemic, knowing it would speed development of vaccinations.  Also, China vaccinates its own people.   

I want to expand on my previous answer to that just a bit. Is it impossible to believe that there are members of such a cabal controlling China too? I do not know what the vaxx will do Gator. The only folks that know that are the ones that developed it if, they even know? What you do know is they call it, mRNA, an operating platform much like a computer that will alter DNA designed to affect our immune system. This for a virus that our immune system (the most of us anyway) can fight without adding the man made synthetic ion particles into out bodies. That doesn't strike you as extreme? The bigger question is what comes later.

China has no Constitution that protects them from the government. They can easily vaxx them all. The US on the other hand does. Is that why our liberties are quickly eroding? Again, an honest question
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on March 02, 2021, 09:44:13 AM
I got mine the other day, no problems at all.

http://tinyurl.com/paf27jbp
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on March 02, 2021, 10:38:16 AM
I got mine the other day, no problems at all.

http://tinyurl.com/paf27jbp

It's during the 6th day that you dick will start to shrink.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 02, 2021, 10:56:42 AM
It is a rabbit hole Shadow. Suppose that the virus is near harmless. It's not totally harmless but it isn't any different than other viruses mankind has dealt with. What is different is the manufactured, planned response to it. The idea to get a new untested, hurried vaxx into everyone on earth. The after effects, side effects and consequences be dammed. You can't sue them and Big Pharma is protected. The billions are miniscule to the quad trillions they stand to make. But even that isn't their end goal.

 They have been planning it for years and what's worse is they have been telling us all along. Dr Bill Gates the scientist, no wait, he's neither a doctor or a scientist. He's just a man with a computer platform background. Have you noticed his relationship with Tony Fauci and George Soros?

Here is Gates almost 10 years ago telling us the end goal. Included in it is the justification with junk science. Reducing the population by 15% equates 1 billion people. That isn't all their plan calls for but this very likely is the beginning of a controlled genocide. The treatment for covid has been the killer, not covid. Why was effective therapeutics ignored and anyone attempting to tell the world cancelled?



And once again, they are idiots. Design a harmless virus in order to spend billions while an automutating trigger in the virus could have done it for nearly free. Whoever they are, they are certainly not Russian.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on March 02, 2021, 01:05:34 PM
Quote
“I believe that this virus is going to change and that the vaccines we have approved right now are just not going to be as effective as we think they are,” says Danny Altmann (http://www.imperial.ac.uk/people/d.altmann), an immunologist at Imperial College London. SARS-CoV-2 has already evolved several new variants—including the ones first identified in the U.K. and South Africa (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/could-new-covid-variants-undermine-vaccines-labs-scramble-to-find-out/), which are more transmissible (though not—for now, at least—more deadly).
Gregory Poland (http://www.mayo.edu/research/faculty/poland-gregory-a-m-d/bio-00078220), a vaccinologist at the Mayo Clinic, agrees it is far too early to think we have this virus beat. He points out that no vaccine for a coronavirus has ever been deployed in a public vaccination program. And mRNA vaccines such as Pfizer’s and Moderna’s—touted by many as the future of vaccinology—have never previously been brought to market. “We don’t know what we don’t know. We have no idea what surprises we might find in a virus that we’ve only been aware of for a year,” says Poland, who co-authored an extensive review of COVID-19 vaccine candidates (http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)32137-1/fulltext) in the Lancet last October. “And the history of vaccinology—in which I’ve been involved for four decades—is amply littered with things we thought we knew.”
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-second-generation-covid-vaccines-are-coming/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on March 02, 2021, 01:09:11 PM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/stg030221dAPR20210302044503.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on March 02, 2021, 02:18:06 PM
Daily tracker........ Covid rate by state----- 
http://www.statista.com/statistics/1109004/coronavirus-covid19-cases-rate-us-americans-by-state/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 02, 2021, 04:04:29 PM
who could be the cabal? 



Never really paid attention to that until last year with all the weird things happening that include the behavior or our politicians and judges. The Cabal or some call it Deep State are powerful people that some say include the Rothchilds, Saudis, and the Vatican which is now controlled by the Deep Church.




More fake news. The virus hit the world scene almost instantly. Trump had no choice but to react to the fear being pumped to the masses 24/7.



Wrong. There was no fear among the masses when Trump took action. Trump was scolded for taking action with the first being travel bans. I knew China manipulated their infections and deaths so the virus wasn't looking very dangerous. Trump knew that too. Trump also knew they were lying when China told the world the virus is human to human transferable.




M  Perhaps this was a pre-planned pandemic to be executed when needed?


I can agree certain groups capitalized off the pandemic but if the virus was harmless, there would be no action taken by Trump.



Trump did tell the world to not let the cure to be worse than the disease and that is exactly whats been happening.


Trump did not say the virus was harmless and no action was needed. He told people that too much action would mean the cure would be worse than the problem. This virus is dangerous and will hurt the economy. There needs to be action but not too much action. There has to be a balance.


TTurn off your TV news Billy and research. Get out of the media fog.


I don't watch tv but I do research and right wing news can be wrong too. Trump will never say this virus is harmless or no action is needed to be taken against it. If you don't want to believe me, maybe you'll believe Trump?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 02, 2021, 05:01:25 PM
Wrong. There was no fear among the masses when Trump took action. Trump was scolded for taking action with the first being travel bans. I knew China manipulated their infections and deaths so the virus wasn't looking very dangerous. Trump knew that too. Trump also knew they were lying when China told the world the virus is human to human transferable.




I can agree certain groups capitalized off the pandemic but if the virus was harmless, there would be no action taken by Trump.



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Trump did not say the virus was harmless and no action was needed. He told people that too much action would mean the cure would be worse than the problem. This virus is dangerous and will hurt the economy. There needs to be action but not too much action. There has to be a balance.




I don't watch tv but I do research and right wing news can be wrong too. Trump will never say this virus is harmless or no action is needed to be taken against it. If you don't want to believe me, maybe you'll believe Trump?


Who said the virus was harmless Billy? The Chinese were lying when they said it was person to person transferable?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 02, 2021, 05:07:45 PM
Who said the virus was harmless Billy? The Chinese were lying when they said it was person to person transferable?


My bad. I meant to say 'wasn't human to human transferable. A lot of people on the right are saying no action is needed to be taken against the virus that causes COVID. They say the virus is not any more dangerous than the flu. They say we should get on with life business as usual as if COVID is another flu or cold we're dealing with. If this wasn't dangerous, Trump would've called out the BS by now. My stance is I'm for some action but not too much action.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 02, 2021, 05:28:00 PM

My bad. I meant to say 'wasn't human to human transferable. A lot of people on the right are saying no action is needed to be taken against the virus that causes COVID. They say the virus is not any more dangerous than the flu. They say we should get on with life business as usual as if COVID is another flu or cold we're dealing with. If this wasn't dangerous, Trump would've called out the BS by now. My stance is I'm for some action but not too much action.

There's no sense in waiting on Trump to call out the BS. You have more than enough evidence to do that yourself but, you don't believe it is BS, do you? The virus is real Billy. I can't say I know anyone who would state otherwise. Real science also confirms this. It doesn't confirm from whence it came or why. What real science doesn't confirm is the lock downs, the masks, the medical treatments, the vaxx and more specifically the accounting of the deaths. That is the junk science of this Plandemic. None of the reaction or the fear mongering makes sense for this virus and can not be proven to make sense using real science. Is that clear enough for you?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 02, 2021, 05:47:44 PM
None of the reaction or the fear mongering makes sense for this virus and can not be proven to make sense using real science. Is that clear enough for you?



I already said I'm for some action but not too much action.


In other news China apologizes for forcing Biden officials to take COVID anal swab tests.


http://breaking911.com/china-apologizes-for-forcing-members-of-the-biden-administration-to-take-anal-swab-covid-19-test/ (http://breaking911.com/china-apologizes-for-forcing-members-of-the-biden-administration-to-take-anal-swab-covid-19-test/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 03, 2021, 12:54:32 AM
There's no sense in waiting on Trump to call out the BS. You have more than enough evidence to do that yourself but, you don't believe it is BS, do you? The virus is real Billy. I can't say I know anyone who would state otherwise. Real science also confirms this. It doesn't confirm from whence it came or why. What real science doesn't confirm is the lock downs, the masks, the medical treatments, the vaxx and more specifically the accounting of the deaths. That is the junk science of this Plandemic. None of the reaction or the fear mongering makes sense for this virus and can not be proven to make sense using real science. Is that clear enough for you?
Scientists around the world will be thanking you for calling their work junk.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 03, 2021, 06:08:16 AM
Scientists around the world will be thanking you for calling their work junk.

Those aren't scientists, they are controlled bought and paid for propagandists
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 03, 2021, 12:50:59 PM

 
Quote
  Who is the next suspect?   The climate change theorists?
 

The next suspect for what? You and I will never agree on climate change aka global warming or what ever is the next moniker...........

I was not debating global warming, but naming "global warmists" as possibly behind the cabal, knowing that killing a few billion would reduce carbon emissions. 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 03, 2021, 01:09:55 PM
FP,

I am attempting to grasp your opinions about vaccinations. 

COVID is contagious and can be lethal, yet not as severe  as the Democrats portrayed it.  With an accommodating news media, the strategy was to engender maximum fear and blame Trump, thereby influencing the election.   

It is becoming more and more evident that many of the policies to engender fear had little basis in science.  For those who see this,  it makes them suspicious of government initiatives to protect us.  And one would think now  that Biden is President, the ruse would slacken.  Such has not happened yet, as for example many schools remained closed.  And spending bills are proposed that would help states who closed their economies.   And for states that endeavored to minimize lockdowns...........

Just because the Democrats  overplayed the pandemic for political reasons does not mean the vaccinations are a devious ploy with grave consequences.   That mRNA platform you name holds much promise, and it may in the future  save your life from cancer.   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 03, 2021, 01:23:06 PM
FP,

I am attempting to grasp your opinions about vaccinations. 


Gator, as FP has bought in to the Alex Jones version of the world, his opinions are simple.Everything he does not like or is afraid of comes from the hands of the world government that is planning to kill off a large part of the world population.These people are anonymous yet well known, and spend billions USD, EUR and Rubles to pay scientists and media to make it look like they do science, all while attempting to ind a way to kill people.
Unfortunately for FP when you use a more skeptic part of the brain you will understand hat if people would have such amount of money and wanted to kill a large part of the population, they could do so without spending billions.

But it is more easy to monger fear, sell quackery and discredit people who dedicate their life to he advance of science.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 03, 2021, 03:59:59 PM
FP,

I am attempting to grasp your opinions about vaccinations. 

COVID is contagious and can be lethal, yet not as severe  as the Democrats portrayed it.  With an accommodating news media, the strategy was to engender maximum fear and blame Trump, thereby influencing the election.   

It is becoming more and more evident that many of the policies to engender fear had little basis in science.  For those who see this,  it makes them suspicious of government initiatives to protect us.  And one would think now  that Biden is President, the ruse would slacken.  Such has not happened yet, as for example many schools remained closed.  And spending bills are proposed that would help states who closed their economies.   And for states that endeavored to minimize lockdowns...........

Just because the Democrats  overplayed the pandemic for political reasons does not mean the vaccinations are a devious ploy with grave consequences.   That mRNA platform you name holds much promise, and it may in the future  save your life from cancer.

Gator
To be clear I have never been per se' an anti-vaxxer, I am an anti covid vaxxer. The vaxx is untested and not safe, it is being provided by the same people who wish to depopulate the earth. These people have evil intent and not one shred of humanity or care for the safety of you or I. mRNA may have all the promise in the world but, that promise is unproven and it is killing people via covid vaxx. Have you checked Dr Bill Gates track record with vaccines in India, Africa, Peru?

Forgive me but I have zero faith in the government initiatives to protect us from anything. Even less faith in the UN, WHO or CDC. These are the same people that has been lying to us from the beginning and very likely the ones who foisted this virus on us to begin with. They are ALL heavily connected at the hip with China, the CCP and the Wuhan Lab. The virus, the tests and the vaxx have all been patented in 2015

But let's get back to the virus itself firstly, it is not lethal to most of those infected. It's lethal to less than .05% of those infected and most of those have pre-existing conditions. Has it killed completely healthy people? Well they tell us it has but with the accounting of deaths how are we to know? One can have a heart attack and die, get tested with a covid test that at best is only 25% accurate and the cause of death is covid. Does that warrant a vaxx for everyone on the planet?

Quite honestly I can't for the life of me see how any half way intelligent person can see otherwise and actually take the vaxx with a smile and attempt to rationalize it. Look at it this way, if they are lying to you, you're F*cked. Have they lied to you yet? If they're not lying to you I maybe F*cked. I like my odds better than yours.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 03, 2021, 04:08:28 PM
Gator, as FP has bought in to the Alex Jones version of the world, his opinions are simple.Everything he does not like or is afraid of comes from the hands of the world government that is planning to kill off a large part of the world population.These people are anonymous yet well known, and spend billions USD, EUR and Rubles to pay scientists and media to make it look like they do science, all while attempting to ind a way to kill people.
Unfortunately for FP when you use a more skeptic part of the brain you will understand hat if people would have such amount of money and wanted to kill a large part of the population, they could do so without spending billions.

But it is more easy to monger fear, sell quackery and discredit people who dedicate their life to he advance of science.

John I can't stand Alex Jones and my opinions are my own. If you wish to have a discussion and dialogue without the condescension I willing but, anymore of this tripe I won't even respond. But, I would be interested to know how you think someone might kill off a large part of the world population?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 03, 2021, 08:49:29 PM
John I can't stand Alex Jones and my opinions are my own.   
You have opinions that is all they are.  They are based on mistrust in authority and fear.   

I read today that the Brazilian variant of the virus is especially bad and is spreading and the vaccines aren't going to stop people from getting sick again. That is concerning. 

As shadow mentioned earlier, if the virus were to mutate in a particularly bad way, it could become much more deadly.  That is also concerning. 

If you have a lot of confidence in your own ability to fight to virus then good luck when it eventually hits you.   It would seem pretty much everybody's number is going to come up one or another with this virus. 
1. fight it and win
2 fight it and lose
3. vaccinate and win
4 vaccinate and lose.
5 Never catch it....not likely

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on March 04, 2021, 05:35:40 PM
Five states are rolling back mask mandates. More could be on the way. Here's what it could mean for all of us.
Quote
WASHINGTON – Five states have announced rolling back mask mandates in major recalls of COVID-19 safety measures over the past month – leaving many to wonder whether other states will join the tide and alter how the country is dealing with COVID-19 at a crucial moment in the fight against the disease.
BAD IDEA.
Quote
But like so much with the pandemic, the path ahead is unclear. Cities, businesses and families are often making their own choices of whether to wear masks or go to restaurants, despite governors in Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, Montana and Iowa declaring that state mandates would no longer be needed to prevent the spread of COVID-19.
Major American retail chains (http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/shopping/2021/03/03/texas-mask-mandate-target-best-buy-starbucks-kroger-albertsons/6913293002/) across the country such as Kroger, Best Buy Co., Kohl’s and Ulta are sticking to their policies to require masks in stores. Some local mayors are telling residents to ignore the words of their state governors.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/03/03/covid-19-texas-mississippi-join-states-rolling-back-mask-mandates/6905305002/
How much trouble is it really to wear a surgical type mask?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on March 04, 2021, 06:13:13 PM

How much trouble is it really to wear a surgical type mask?


Quite a bit.

I am constantly stopped on the street and asked for medical advice.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 04, 2021, 09:54:43 PM

Unfortunately for FP when you use a more skeptic part of the brain......

But it is more easy to monger fear, sell quackery and discredit people who dedicate their life to he advance of science.

Thanks Shadow for your explanation.  I am not buying your explanation because FP's track record here shows he is smarter than that.  Nor am I buying FP's explanation. 

If times were normal, I would tilt towards you explanation.  Times are not normal.   The tone of the political strife in the US is absurd.  What is worse is the disinformation.  I thpought the Russian hoax bad, especially with  offenders keeping their Pulitzer prizes.   That hoax pales with what I see today. It seems to start with some  Democrat talking points, which go unchallenged and are reported as gospel by the liberal news media.  Biden's failings are stunning, yet not as stunning as the cover provided by the liberal press.   

The disinformation has affected me.to the point  I view everything from the liberal press with suspicion.  And behold, my suspicions are usually confirmed  as the truth unfolds.  If this keeps up, conspiracy theories may seem plausible by comparison.    I spare you the  newer examples of disinformation, and besides this thread is about COVID, not politics.  Nevertheless, the world of COVID has been politicized.   

So in this vast sea of disinformation, I don't fault people for questioning the news, even it makes them reluctant to be vaccinated.    I draw a line, however.   I may question almost everything else, yet as a high risk target for COVID, I welcomed my vaccination, and look forward to the second jab.  Thank GOD for modern science and Trump's Warp Speed program. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 04, 2021, 11:09:44 PM
   The tone of the political strife in the US is absurd.   
..and you do your part to participate and add to it. 

  It seems to start with some  Democrat talking points, which go unchallenged and are reported as gospel by the liberal news media. 
...and the republican talking points which go unchallenged and reported as gospel on conservative outlets. 

.  Biden's failings are stunning
Your efforts to immediately make statements about biden's 'failings' only demonstrate your own tremendous bias.  He has only been there for 40 days, he hasn't had time to be a failure yet.  Actually he is about the same as trump, except quite a bit better so far.   

   

The disinformation has affected me.to the point  I view everything from the liberal press with suspicion.  And behold, my suspicions are usually confirmed  as the truth unfolds.  If this keeps up, conspiracy theories may seem plausible by comparison.    I spare you the  newer examples of disinformation, and besides this thread is about COVID, not politics.  Nevertheless, the world of COVID has been politicized.   
 
yes you are affected and not in a good way either.     Everything coming from the conservative outlets should be viewed with suspicion.  You have made the thread about politics with your post.   You are doing summersaults to try to defend FP.  If it had been a conservative president, and an 'evil liberal' espousing what FP is, you would be attempting to attack that poster.  In this case you are disagreeing amicably which you refuse to do in many other cases.   Humorous to view/read your explanation this time. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 05, 2021, 01:22:42 AM
John I can't stand Alex Jones and my opinions are my own. If you wish to have a discussion and dialogue without the condescension I willing but, anymore of this tripe I won't even respond. But, I would be interested to know how you think someone might kill off a large part of the world population?
Interesting that while you can not stand him you are proclaiming the same type of fear mongering. Good that you can not stand him, now to abolish he similar ideas.
Depending on ow ast you want it to happen, currently there are two options. Nuclear war and an EMP that renders our electronics useless. especially the second one will collapse society and kill off most of us as the amount of people being able to feed themselves without a store is minimal.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 05, 2021, 06:34:33 AM
Interesting that while you can not stand him you are proclaiming the same type of fear mongering. Good that you can not stand him, now to abolish he similar ideas.
Depending on ow ast you want it to happen, currently there are two options. Nuclear war and an EMP that renders our electronics useless. especially the second one will collapse society and kill off most of us as the amount of people being able to feed themselves without a store is minimal.

I follow 'truth' wherever that may take me. I am also a man of faith and I trust God to help guide me. Should my discovered truth intersect, run parallel or dove tail with Alex Jones's opinion then from my POV he could be right. Jones is s shill and a marketing hack. Some stuff from early in his career was impressive. Since then the idea that even a broken clock is right twice a day comes to mind. I don't listen to him, I don't watch him nor follow him.

There is an inherent evil in this world apparently you have no conception of. Make no mistake, what we are all witnessing now, in this world is the centuries old battle of good vs evil. Nuclear or an EMP bomb is too destructive and uncontrolled even for the demonic but, personally I wouldn't say it was off the table.  Likely they do not want to destroy the earth just the people on it and keep the remaining in slavery. You should research and find out who "they" actually are and you'll have a better idea of their plan.

You can begin with the United Nations, the same folks would claim to be concerned for your health. Look past the flowery language and focus on the results. The now modified Agenda 21 and Agenda 30. Look for the Khazarian Mafia. These people have been hiding in plain sight for centuries controlling every aspect of the financial system and the earth's inhabitants. They have started most every war for financial gain and the death and destruction it brings.

Turn off your television and brain washing internet news. You are being programmed and the covid is but one tool at their disposal. They are lying to us Shadow. When you can accept that one irrefutable fact, much of the rest will become more clearer
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 05, 2021, 07:14:53 AM
..and you do your part to participate and add to it. 

I stopped reading here.

Thank you for the compliment that I have influence.  That's B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T.   What we say here temporarily affects a mere handful of people at most.  Actually, we likely affect no one because it seems every RWD participant has an intractable mentality regarding current politics.     

The damage is being done by the Administration, Congress, NGOs, and our news media.   You and I are mere citizens who express our opinions every two years when voting, save some of us who make political contributions. 

The one word to describe our government is repugnant.   Some exceptions exist, e. g.,  I support vaccinations. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 05, 2021, 07:30:39 AM
These people have been hiding in plain sight for centuries controlling every aspect of the financial system and the earth's inhabitants. They have started most every war for financial gain and the death and destruction it brings.

I forgot to add to my list the like of George Soros, et al. 

We elect our government leaders to consider all facts, deliberate the many issues and make tradeoffs for the better good.   If vaccinations are a sinister, mass murder plot, why are most of our government leaders volunteering to be jabbed?   

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 05, 2021, 08:06:17 AM
I forgot to add to my list the like of George Soros, et al. 

Soros is certainly a player but where is he seated actually in the order of the KM I have no idea. I would suspect it's not a high one given his history. As far as Soros goes, is he really a shipping magnate? Could a mere shipping magnate break the BOE and the British pound? London has actually been the financial center of the world for centuries. Still think it possible a former Nazi can bring it to it's knees? Maybe the players behind the scene of the former German Nazi party and the supporters of it should be looked at closer? Those players and the connection to the political elite of the US is quite surprising.
 
Quote
We elect our government leaders to consider all facts, deliberate the many issues and make tradeoffs for the better good.   If vaccinations are a sinister, mass murder plot, why are most of our government leaders volunteering to be jabbed?   

There are many questions to that that bring few answers except to those in the know. It generally brings more questions and yes there are answers but you won't find them from the news sources we've relied on for years. You know my background and I hate to admit it but journalism as we thought we knew it is dead. Our political system has been influenced and infected for many years. Since enacting the FED has run rampant with corruption.  Bribery and blackmail is very effective to even elected politicians of every country. Most folks have a difficult time grasping that this isn't a democrat/republican, black/white, Christian/Muslim,  nation vs nation thing. This is a freedom vs slavery of the world thing. The Great Reset I am convinced is slavery.

I do not know if the vaxx is a murder plot. Too many abnormalities behind the vaxx that I find very disturbing. As I mentioned before, I can't understand why others do not see it as well. Many people close to me have taken the vaxx so I hope that it isn't but, as you can see a manufactured virus is certainly a way to infect an entire world population. A vaxx to a non lethal virus for most of us, to change our natural immune system response I find highly suspect. Especially given the people and organization behind it
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 05, 2021, 08:14:20 AM
I forgot to add to my list the like of George Soros, et al. 

We elect our government leaders to consider all facts, deliberate the many issues and make tradeoffs for the better good.   If vaccinations are a sinister, mass murder plot, why are most of our government leaders volunteering to be jabbed?   

Also, didn't mean to avoid this but, are we sure they are getting jabbed? Pelosi and Biden's videos weren't very convincing. Remember, HCQ and remdesvir (sp) and other therapeutics are as successful as the vaxx. That info is out there but again, it's not on the media
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 06, 2021, 02:26:04 AM
Also, didn't mean to avoid this but, are we sure they are getting jabbed? Pelosi and Biden's videos weren't very convincing. Remember, HCQ and remdesvir (sp) and other therapeutics are as successful as the vaxx. That info is out there but again, it's not on the media
The problem with any cure or vaccine is testing. As patients can recover without medicine, a control group is needed for double blind test to establish significant results.This is one of the reasons why development takes a long time, apart from side effects. To ensure something actually works against a 90% chance of recovering without anything is not simple. You either need a large amount of people trying or a long time.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 06, 2021, 05:29:51 AM


The one word to describe our government is repugnant.   
Well then it looks like I've rubbed off on you.  Just a few years ago, you were fully supportive of US interventions around the globe, and the goodness of the US.  Nowadays you have changed your view of the US, and US foreign policy which is indeed repugnant.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 06, 2021, 06:08:18 AM
The problem with any cure or vaccine is testing. As patients can recover without medicine, a control group is needed for double blind test to establish significant results.This is one of the reasons why development takes a long time, apart from side effects. To ensure something actually works against a 90% chance of recovering without anything is not simple. You either need a large amount of people trying or a long time.

I'm not exactly sure of what you're saying here Shadow. The devil in is the details. Because of the rush to get a vaxx into the entire population it is okay or acceptable to inject a vaxx that in the least changes the immune system (that has a 99% chance to combat the virus) or the worst kill them? Isn't that in essence creating a solution to a problem that doesn't exist? Is there nothing ticked in your brain that says "why?"

Even after vaccination the "science" (junk science) says you can still get the virus, spread the virus so, keep your mask on and keep your distance. The science and you now, are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

I'm going to take a shot that is going to change my immune system and require that I take many more shots or, I'm going to risk not taking a shot and let my untainted immune system do what it has done since the beginning of humanity.

I'm going to take my chances with the latter  :D
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 06, 2021, 07:52:48 AM
I'm going to take a shot that is going to change my immune system and require that I take many more shots or, I'm going to risk not taking a shot and let my untainted immune system do what it has done since the beginning of humanity.

I'm going to take my chances with the latter  :D
One of the first things in months that makes a little sense!  Although I'm not aligned on the grand conspiricy part, I'm on board with holding off on vaccines at this time, (Which may be a signal to you to jump ship).   :D

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 06, 2021, 10:56:59 AM

I'm going to take a shot that is going to change my immune system and require that I take many more shots or, I'm going to risk not taking a shot and let my untainted immune system do what it has done since the beginning of humanity.

I'm going to take my chances with the latter  :D
Considering that I regularly need to reset my immune system to stop looking like Freddy Krueger, I am unsure if that is a good idea in my case. But as our family is a team, vaxxing is postponed until MrsShadow considers it safe enough, or one of our sons graduates in virology, which may take a goo 15 years.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 07, 2021, 12:20:28 PM
vaxxing is postponed until MrsShadow considers it safe enough


If you think COVID is bad, try disagreeing with the boss.


In other news, American media is claiming Russia is putting out disinformation on American vaccines. I read the article and I don't see disinformation. American vaccines were rushed and there are serious side effects. I know one woman who lost a total of two weeks work because she felt very sick after each shot of the Pfizer vaccine.

http://nypost.com/2021/03/07/russian-intelligence-trying-to-undermine-pfizer-covid-vaccine/ (http://nypost.com/2021/03/07/russian-intelligence-trying-to-undermine-pfizer-covid-vaccine/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 07, 2021, 01:35:33 PM
If you think COVID is bad, try disagreeing with the boss.


In other news, American media is claiming Russia is putting out disinformation on American vaccines. I read the article and I don't see disinformation. American vaccines were rushed and there are serious side effects. I know one woman who lost a total of two weeks work because she felt very sick after each shot of the Pfizer vaccine.

http://nypost.com/2021/03/07/russian-intelligence-trying-to-undermine-pfizer-covid-vaccine/ (http://nypost.com/2021/03/07/russian-intelligence-trying-to-undermine-pfizer-covid-vaccine/)

As usual Russia just responds in the same way media called out the Russian vaccines as unreliable.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on March 07, 2021, 01:52:28 PM
American vaccines were rushed and there are serious side effects. I know one woman who lost a total of two weeks work because she felt very sick after each shot of the Pfizer vaccine.


This happens every year with a very few people after flu vaccine.

Probably happens to some people after vaccination for anything, even using same vaccine that has been around for dozens of years; we just don't hear about it.

I felt so bad after each of my Pfizer shots . . . I could hardly finish my second helping of pie and ice cream.  Wife had to kiss me to make me feel better.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 07, 2021, 02:54:07 PM
The vaxx deaths continue to mount. Of course they keep attempting to convince people how important it is and how bad they need it. There is a good comparison of death and adverse reaction of covid vaxx vs flu vaxx in this story

Quote
http://www.theepochtimes.com/adverse-incident-reports-show-966-deaths-following-vaccination-for-covid-19_3723384.html?utm_source=morningbrief&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=mb-2021-03-07
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 08, 2021, 09:27:59 AM
I'm not sure why people are believing the vaccine is the key to 'herd immunity' when every single information you have, including that of the indelible Mr. Anthony Fauci, that it doesn't keep you from getting infected, it doesn't stop you from infecting other and spreading the virus...all it really does is 'lessen' the effects of the symptoms...


Knowing this, why didn't they just produced Regeneron ( The therapy they used on Boris, Trump and Bolsanaro) instead of the billions spent on vaccine and the time and lives wasted waiting for the release of the vaccine/s?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 08, 2021, 09:44:17 AM
I'm not sure why people are believing the vaccine is the key to 'herd immunity' when every single information you have, including that of the indelible Mr. Anthony Fauci, that it doesn't keep you from getting infected, it doesn't stop you from infecting other and spreading the virus...all it really does is 'lessen' the effects of the symptoms...


Knowing this, why didn't they just produced Regeneron ( The therapy they used on Boris, Trump and Bolsanaro) instead of the billions spent on vaccine and the time and lives wasted waiting for the release of the vaccine/s?

Worse....it manipulates the immune system to hinder or stop any natural herd immunity. Remember there is a treatment with HCQ
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 08, 2021, 11:26:11 AM
If you think COVID is bad, try disagreeing with the boss.


In other news, American media is claiming Russia is putting out disinformation on American vaccines. I read the article and I don't see disinformation. American vaccines were rushed and there are serious side effects. I know one woman who lost a total of two weeks work because she felt very sick after each shot of the Pfizer vaccine.

http://nypost.com/2021/03/07/russian-intelligence-trying-to-undermine-pfizer-covid-vaccine/ (http://nypost.com/2021/03/07/russian-intelligence-trying-to-undermine-pfizer-covid-vaccine/)


Are you going to take up any of the vaccines Billy or are you antivac?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 08, 2021, 12:15:44 PM
Worse....it manipulates the immune system to hinder or stop any natural herd immunity. Remember there is a treatment with HCQ


Nah...too cheap bro. Plus it's widely available.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 08, 2021, 12:18:44 PM

Nah...too cheap bro. Plus it's widely available.

And as effective as a vaxx
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 08, 2021, 01:11:22 PM
Worse....it manipulates the immune system to hinder or stop any natural herd immunity. Remember there is a treatment with HCQ
Yup the heart failure and epileptic seizures are just an added bonus.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 08, 2021, 01:50:32 PM
And as effective as a vaxx


Not sure how it is elsewhere, but fascinating is happening here in California/LA. They converted the testing station sites to add and compliment the vaccine sites. Guess what happened? The *infection rate* went down!!!! It's a hotdang MIRACLE, man!!!!


An aside: Has Biden been out of the WH yet? The big house is pretty BIG, but confined inside those walls, it's still gotta get to you...soon as the COVID- relief bill gets passed, California stands to reap over half a trillion big ones! 5% of which is for COVID relief...thanks to all the taxpayers from the other 49er...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 08, 2021, 02:12:12 PM
Yup the heart failure and epileptic seizures are just an added bonus.

Are you referring to the vaxx or the HCQ?


Not sure how it is elsewhere, but fascinating is happening here in California/LA. They converted the testing station sites to add and compliment the vaccine sites. Guess what happened? The *infection rate* went down!!!! It's a hotdang MIRACLE, man!!!!


An aside: Has Biden been out of the WH yet? The big house is pretty BIG, but confined inside those walls, it's still gotta get to you...soon as the COVID- relief bill gets passed, California stands to reap over half a trillion big ones! 5% of which is for COVID relief...thanks to all the taxpayers from the other 49er...

Out? I don't think there's been any evidence he's been in it, yet
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 08, 2021, 04:36:44 PM

California stands to reap over half a trillion big ones! 5% of which is for COVID relief...thanks to all the taxpayers from the other 49er...

Not all the other 49 states.   IL, NY, NJ and others who locked down their economy, kept their schools closed, etc.  have their hands out too.

The economies in states such as FL, TX, and Dakotas  who mostly kept working can handle it (aka "pay their fair share").

The $1.9 Trillion is merely added to our long-term debt.  As long as Biden keeps interest rates the same as seen under Trump, the nation can handle the increased debt.   This recent doubling of the 10-yr interest rate is temporary.....right?   Tell me it is not a trend!  Biden and the Democrat Congress know high interest rates would slow the economy, so surely they have a plan, yes?   
 . 
 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on March 08, 2021, 05:21:38 PM
As long as Biden keeps interest rates the same as seen under Trump, the nation can handle the increased debt.   

Think how disappointed Jerome will be to find out that he doesn't control interest rates .
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 08, 2021, 07:01:43 PM
Think how disappointed Jerome will be to find out that he doesn't control interest rates .

Biden's fiscal policies indirectly affect interest rates.  The Fed's monetary policies directly control the interest rate for overnight borrowing. To pay the nation's debt, don't you think we we need more than overnight borrowing?  The Fed has some affect on long term rates if Jerome keeps buying US treasuries declined by the rest of the world.  Now think what all of this does to the dollar, inflation and the dual mandate. 

I don't worry about the economy because of the stimulus created by  waves and waves of new immigrants filling our vacant jobs at $15/hr 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 08, 2021, 11:34:37 PM

Are you going to take up any of the vaccines Billy or are you antivac?


I'm not antivac. I take a flu vaccine once every 3 or 4 years. I may take the Johnson and Johnson vaccine which uses an old tried and true method of building up immunity by taking pieces of a harmless coronavirus that causes the common cold and injecting it into our bodies so our immune system will likely attack the virus that causes COVID when it shows up.



The vaxx deaths continue to mount. Of course they keep attempting to convince people how important it is and how bad they need it. There is a good comparison of death and adverse reaction of covid vaxx vs flu vaxx in this story


Fake News Fact Checking sites are trying to dismiss the Epoch Times story. People can go to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System at the CDC website themselves and play with the search engine. For the few months COVID vaccines came out 578 deaths happened after people took the Moderna vaccine, 578 deaths happened after people take the Pfizer vaccine. 5 deaths happened after taking a vaccine from an unknown manufacture. 1153 deaths so far from all COVID vaccines. Fake news says many of the deaths is not COVID related(how do they know?) but here's a comparison. I did a search for deaths that happened for all influenza vaccines in the last 40 years and the total deaths are 1184 which is almost the same as the COVID deaths that happened within a few months. I'm sure not all deaths are influenza vaccine related but it's apparent, dying after taking the COVID vaccine is 100 times more likely than dying after taking the flu vaccine. This could be mRNA related. It's such a powerful vaccine that they can't give it in one shot. A vaccine like Johnson and Johnson's may lower the death rate as it gets distributed since it's created like many of the flu vaccines we take.

http://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8;jsessionid=2E35B91B4077E739FA1CA9A38888
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 09, 2021, 03:47:00 AM
I'm not antivac. I take a flu vaccine once every 3 or 4 years. I may take the Johnson and Johnson vaccine which uses an old tried and true method of building up immunity by taking pieces of a harmless coronavirus that causes the common cold and injecting it into our bodies so our immune system will likely attack the virus that causes COVID when it shows up.


Fake News Fact Checking sites are trying to dismiss the Epoch Times story. People can go to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System at the CDC website themselves and play with the search engine. For the few months COVID vaccines came out 578 deaths happened after people took the Moderna vaccine, 578 deaths happened after people take the Pfizer vaccine. 5 deaths happened after taking a vaccine from an unknown manufacture. 1153 deaths so far from all COVID vaccines. Fake news says many of the deaths is not COVID related(how do they know?) but here's a comparison. I did a search for deaths that happened for all influenza vaccines in the last 40 years and the total deaths are 1184 which is almost the same as the COVID deaths that happened within a few months. I'm sure not all deaths are influenza vaccine related but it's apparent, dying after taking the COVID vaccine is 100 times more likely than dying after taking the flu vaccine. This could be mRNA related. It's such a powerful vaccine that they can't give it in one shot. A vaccine like Johnson and Johnson's may lower the death rate as it gets distributed since it's created like many of the flu vaccines we take.

http://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8;jsessionid=2E35B91B4077E739FA1CA9A38888

Yeah similarly I'm looking to take the Oxford Astra Zenaca vaccine which is similar to the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. I was offered a vaccine for this Friday with my GP way earlier than my age group would be, normally mid April. I have no underlying medical reasons for this to be so. I at first made an appointment then cancelled as I looked into it online and it looks like the site it's at is doing the Pfizer vaccine, one woman commented in the Google reviews for the sure that it was and that was just three weeks ago. Thing is they don't tell you until you are there which vaccine it is so it is all very deceptive.

I'm going to wait till mid April as it's only a few weeks away then go for the NHS vaccination centre. I know that has been doing the Oxford Astra Zenaca vaccine so hopefully will still be doing so. Again you don't find out until the day but odds are it will be doing that one as the UK has bought 100 million doses as compared to 20 million doses for Pfizer. For some perculiar reason the UK has bought millions of doses for other makes of vaccine so hopefully they won't have delivered by then anyway. If I don't have the Oxford vaccine come up when I go I'll walk but you know how they may be at these places in trying to put it on you while there. That's why I couldn't be bothered in turning up to the one on Friday as not worth the hassle in finding out for sure what I'm pretty certain off as to my mind it explains how it was so easy for me to get in so early as no one else wants it lol, why else would it be so, silly I didn't fall in sooner really :-\
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 09, 2021, 05:57:18 AM
Fake News Fact Checking sites are trying to dismiss the Epoch Times story. People can go to the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System at the CDC website themselves and play with the search engine. For the few months COVID vaccines came out 578 deaths happened after people took the Moderna vaccine, 578 deaths happened after people take the Pfizer vaccine. 5 deaths happened after taking a vaccine from an unknown manufacture. 1153 deaths so far from all COVID vaccines. Fake news says many of the deaths is not COVID related(how do they know?) but here's a comparison. I did a search for deaths that happened for all influenza vaccines in the last 40 years and the total deaths are 1184 which is almost the same as the COVID deaths that happened within a few months. I'm sure not all deaths are influenza vaccine related but it's apparent, dying after taking the COVID vaccine is 100 times more likely than dying after taking the flu vaccine. This could be mRNA related. It's such a powerful vaccine that they can't give it in one shot. A vaccine like Johnson and Johnson's may lower the death rate as it gets distributed since it's created like many of the flu vaccines we take.



http://wonder.cdc.gov/controller/datarequest/D8;jsessionid=2E35B91B4077E739FA1CA9A38888

If they counted the vaxx deaths the way they counted covid-19 deaths they would already be in the 100's of 1000's. I.E. those that died with the vaxx as opposed to died by the vaxx
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 09, 2021, 06:30:47 AM
If they counted the vaxx deaths the way they counted covid-19 deaths they would already be in the 100's of 1000's. I.E. those that died with the vaxx as opposed to died by the vaxx

One can still become infected after receiving the vaccine.  My friend's wife had COVID five days after her first jab of Moderna.   She was very ill, yet recovered.

The immunity is demonstrated 14 days after the second jab, so that is 5-6 weeks after the first jab.

FP, consider the 100,000 volunteers in the clinical trials.  Those volunteers are still being studied.    For example, the Pfizer vaccine has been shown to be equally effective against the Brazilian variant. 

There is so much information.  Whether its a vaccine or a therapeutic, both still involve administering something foreign into one's body.   

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 09, 2021, 06:45:16 AM
One can still become infected after receiving the vaccine.  My friend's wife had COVID five days after her first jab of Moderna.   She was very ill, yet recovered.

The immunity is demonstrated 14 days after the second jab, so that is 5-6 weeks after the first jab.

FP, consider the 100,000 volunteers in the clinical trials.  Those volunteers are still being studied.    For example, the Pfizer vaccine has been shown to be equally effective against the Brazilian variant. 

There is so much information.  Whether its a vaccine or a therapeutic, both still involve administering something foreign into one's body.
Well that's true but only one is manipulating the immune system for permanent changes as opposed to the other that has been used and studied for almost 70 years. I'm not sure what you're attempting to defend here Gator. Are we needing the Pfizer injection to combat the variants yet, can still become infected, still distance and wear a mask? Forgive me but I've yet to see a benefit of any of the vaxx?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 09, 2021, 07:12:04 PM
Those volunteers are still being studied.



Some studies will take years to complete. I hope for the hundreds of millions of Americans that took an mRNA vaccine, they'll be okay 5, 10, 15+ years from now. If I could give one tip to the people reading, I'd say choose a vaccine that's not mRNA based. Take one that uses an old school tried and true method to create. The Johnson and Johnson vaccine is the only one in America I'd consider taking since it contains harmless pieces of coronaviruses that cause the common cold. Those pieces can't replicate and our immune system will likely recognize and attack the coronavirus that causes COVID if it shows up.




Forgive me but I've yet to see a benefit of any of the vaxx?



I have not read any big announcement that the vaccines are a success. I have no doubt they are preventing people from getting COVID but the preventive measures we've taken earlier have already protected the elderly and most vulnerable from dying. Younger people who go to work and out in public are much less likely to die so vaccines won't save a majority of those people's lives. The best benefit I see from vaccines is that is slows the spread of COVID. I doubt these temporary lasting vaccines will stop and eradicate COVID off the face of the earth. We're going to have to live with this China virus forever.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 09, 2021, 08:31:30 PM

Some studies will take years to complete. I hope for the hundreds of millions of Americans that took an mRNA vaccine, they'll be okay 5, 10, 15+ years from now. If I could give one tip to the people reading, I'd say choose a vaccine that's not mRNA based. Take one that uses an old school tried and true method to create. The Johnson and Johnson vaccine is the only one in America I'd consider taking since it contains harmless pieces of coronaviruses that cause the common cold. Those pieces can't replicate and our immune system will likely recognize and attack the coronavirus that causes COVID if it shows up.





I have not read any big announcement that the vaccines are a success. I have no doubt they are preventing people from getting COVID but the preventive measures we've taken earlier have already protected the elderly and most vulnerable from dying. Younger people who go to work and out in public are much less likely to die so vaccines won't save a majority of those people's lives. The best benefit I see from vaccines is that is slows the spread of COVID. I doubt these temporary lasting vaccines will stop and eradicate COVID off the face of the earth. We're going to have to live with this China virus forever.

Yeah I kind of thought the same Billy that vaccines like the Pfizer there is no way of knowing how they will affect people that had it over the long term. I know stuff has happened in the past when people took stuff or worked with stuff (smoking, asbestos, etc as well as some medical drugs) and then many years later got hit with bad health problems out of the blue. So there's no telling at the moment if Pfizer (mRNA) etc might do something like that, I would rather not risk it.

The thing is if there was any global co-ordination I reckon they could fairly easily see of the virus especially in conjunction with the vaccines. The vaccines reduce the transmission rate and help protect against the virus. If only all governments would keep the lockdowns on a bit longer I reckon it could all be over fast, but they seem obsessed with lifting the lockdown as soon as they can rather than waiting a few weeks which I reckon is all it would take. I think they have convinced themselves that we have to live with this virus when if they had a bit of co-ordination globally it could easily be defeated.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 10, 2021, 07:18:40 AM
Just some common myths debunked:- mRNA can no change the DNA of a person. It does not work like a retrovirus- the vaccine can not turn in to a new virus.
The reason he mRNA is declared safe is that there is no possibility of it becoming anything else. While it is new technology, the COVID-19 research has taken years of the development due to the funding available.Yes money is important to develop, just as the willingness and availability of many volunteers.
While I understand that the speed of development can be suspicious, at the same time this is also an unprecedented case for the developers.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 10, 2021, 08:30:21 AM
Just some common myths debunked:- mRNA can no change the DNA of a person. It does not work like a retrovirus- the vaccine can not turn in to a new virus.
The reason he mRNA is declared safe is that there is no possibility of it becoming anything else. While it is new technology, the COVID-19 research has taken years of the development due to the funding available.Yes money is important to develop, just as the willingness and availability of many volunteers.
While I understand that the speed of development can be suspicious, at the same time this is also an unprecedented case for the developers.

It may not change DNA etc but that's not to say it could not do damage, block body systems & have unforeseen consequences . The there is the unanswered long term affect that we won't know until we get there. I for one have no wish to be a lab rat in the study.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 10, 2021, 08:34:15 AM
It may not change DNA etc but that's not to say it could not do damage, block body systems & have unforeseen consequences . The there is the unanswered long term affect that we won't know until we get there. I for one have no wish to be a lab rat in the study.
And how long will you wait to declare it safe?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 10, 2021, 08:40:31 AM

I have not read any big announcement that the vaccines are a success. I have no doubt they are preventing people from getting COVID but the preventive measures we've taken earlier have already protected the elderly and most vulnerable from dying. Younger people who go to work and out in public are much less likely to die so vaccines won't save a majority of those people's lives. The best benefit I see from vaccines is that is slows the spread of COVID. I doubt these temporary lasting vaccines will stop and eradicate COVID off the face of the earth. We're going to have to live with this China virus forever.

It really doesn't even slow down the virus. Has anything slowed down the Flu or pneumonia? Wait, have we even heard of the flu, pneumonia or the common cold last year? covid-19 is a scam and the sooner folks wake up to that idea the better off we'll all be. The vaxx is untested on humans. That test is going on now as we speak on a global scale. We, they, have no idea what the results will be. As it stands now with those numbers coming in that you quoted, folks have a better chance to die by the vaxx than dying by covid

Just some common myths debunked:- mRNA can no change the DNA of a person. It does not work like a retrovirus- the vaccine can not turn in to a new virus.
The reason he mRNA is declared safe is that there is no possibility of it becoming anything else. While it is new technology, the COVID-19 research has taken years of the development due to the funding available.Yes money is important to develop, just as the willingness and availability of many volunteers.
While I understand that the speed of development can be suspicious, at the same time this is also an unprecedented case for the developers.


Nothing is debunked there Shadow. You're either not paying attention or you've been gaslighted to the degree of submission. mRNA is designed to manipulate one's immune system. It does so by becoming part of your DNA to trick it into reaction to a virus that it already knows what to do with.  Who declared mRNA safe? These volunteers you speak of, do you know them? Do you know there isn't any mid to long term results as yet and the short term isn't looking to good?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 10, 2021, 09:23:47 AM
And how long will you wait to declare it safe?



One doesn't need to wait till an mRNA vaccine is declared safe. If one wants a vaccine, there are options that are proven safer. All one has to do is review the studies conducted by Pfizer and Moderna to see some studies like reproductive toxicity hasn't been concluded. It takes years for certain studies to be concluded. No amount of money to speed up the process will help a study that requires 'time'. Even the FDA says certain studies of those vaccines haven't been concluded. Last I read, WHO has not approved mRNA vaccines. Maybe 5 years from now we'll learn mRNA has harmed a male's ability to produce sperm or harm the sperm enough to cause birth defects. Males with healthy sperm will be in demand. Guys like Trench and I will have multiple women begging us to give them kids! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on March 10, 2021, 09:33:14 AM

 Males with healthy sperm will be in demand. Guys like Trench and I will have multiple women begging us to give them kids!

Yes, but all you will get to do is jerk off into a small plastic container.

Or, perhaps they will insert a square needle into your testicles to withdraw the sperm.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 10, 2021, 09:46:36 AM
Yes, but all you will get to do is jerk off into a small plastic container.

Or, perhaps they will insert a square needle into your testicles to withdraw the sperm.


I will reject due to religious reasons! Breeding is going to have to be done using a traditional method.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 11, 2021, 12:21:08 AM

One doesn't need to wait till an mRNA vaccine is declared safe. If one wants a vaccine, there are options that are proven safer. All one has to do is review the studies conducted by Pfizer and Moderna to see some studies like reproductive toxicity hasn't been concluded. It takes years for certain studies to be concluded. No amount of money to speed up the process will help a study that requires 'time'. Even the FDA says certain studies of those vaccines haven't been concluded. Last I read, WHO has not approved mRNA vaccines. Maybe 5 years from now we'll learn mRNA has harmed a male's ability to produce sperm or harm the sperm enough to cause birth defects. Males with healthy sperm will be in demand. Guys like Trench and I will have multiple women begging us to give them kids!
Perhaps check the scientific papers instead of fearmedia.And I could do with a lower fertility. :D
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Chelseaboy on March 11, 2021, 04:37:51 AM
Denmark and Norway have suspended the use of the Oxford vaccine after reports of severe blood clots affecting a number of patients who've had the vaccine.


Italy,Austria,Estonia,Latvia,Lithuania,Luxembourg saying they've  banned a particular batch.


I had my covid-19 vaccine invite earlier this week..i told them i'll ring them back when i'm ready to have it.


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 11, 2021, 06:34:23 AM
It really doesn't even slow down the virus. Has anything slowed down the Flu or pneumonia? Wait, have we even heard of the flu, pneumonia or the common cold last year? covid-19 is a scam and the sooner folks wake up to that idea the better off we'll all be.

Everyone clearly witnessed how our government, along with the media, behaved this past 12 years. Then witness the majority snowflakes flowed along with it. So nothing surprises me anymore.

We haven’t found immunity for the common flu what makes you believe this vaccine can against COVID? Take the vaccine if you think it helps. If this virus is as deadly as most believe it is, catch up on reality a bit and look up mortality rate, whether domestic or global. Survivability rate, CFR....

If I lived through the sensationalized darkest days of COVID, methinks I like my chances.

Science bombed us with repeated harping of strict practice of washing our hands and general hygiene practices to prevent infection. LMAO. Tell that to LA’s homeless population! Stay indoors, lockdowns, close businesses, work at home, home studies....now science is speculating the reason homeless people fared so much better than the gullible is because they live ‘outdoors’ and not indoors. Everything they told us that pose the highest risks to COVID perfectly describes conditions homeless people are in everyday.

Funny. You just can’t make this stuff up. Fauci is as Fauci does. Now we’re suppose to be in the red tier because less people are infected and folks are getting vaccinated. Yipee! Imagine that. Oh and btw, the COVID Relief bill is about to get signed.


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 11, 2021, 06:43:20 AM
Denmark and Norway have suspended the use of the Oxford vaccine after reports of severe blood clots affecting a number of patients who've had the vaccine.


Italy saying they've  banned a particular batch.


I had my covid-19 vaccine invite earlier this week..i told them i'll ring them back when i'm ready to have it.
ke up

Lol, and the Pfizer one is even worse! Apparently in Ukraine there is currently low take up of the Astra Zenaca vaccine as it's produced in India and Ukrainians fear poor production/version of the drug. Doesn't surprise me as Ukrainians can be very fussy what they put into themselves.

Anyway yeah I saw the report too. I think as BillyB's figures on the flu jab show even those using tried & tested technology may possibly have a few deaths but the number is much lower than Pfizer.

I will still chance it with the Astra Zenaca jab even after such a report. The odds aren't real bad to my mind and can probably do with some protection plus want to get out to Ukraine again this year if possible. Can always take an aspirin or two after if it allows I think you can in the flu jab so that can thin the blood and help prevent blood clots. For me at my age I'm willing to take a small chance and if it all goes south then its just the way it goes, not going to live forever nor I'm sure I would want too.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Chelseaboy on March 11, 2021, 07:01:00 AM
My 53 year-old brother,who has Diabetes type 2, had his first Pfizer jab last week with no ill-effects so far.


His wife ,who's 46 and has Asthma,had her Oxford jab in the same week and was really ill next day with nausea and vomiting but she's fine now.


My brother is nagging me to get mine but i'm inclined to think like GQBlues on this in that i survived the darkest Corona times without any problems..so what's the rush ?


I did have my first Flu jab this year though ; )
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 11, 2021, 07:02:20 AM

Science bombed us with repeated harping of strict practice of washing our hands and general hygiene practices to prevent infection. LMAO. Tell that to LA’s homeless population! Stay indoors, lockdowns, close businesses, work at home, home studies....now science is speculating the reason homeless people fared so much better than the gullible is because they live ‘outdoors’ and not indoors. Everything they told us that pose the highest risks to COVID perfectly describes conditions homeless people are in everyday.

I've done everything wrong, stayed open, never washed my hands, no mask 99% of the time, and I'm not quite dead  yet.   I guess I believe the people running the show are being relatively truthful, but still I chose to continue with my lifestyle and hope for the best.   

. Males with healthy sperm will be in demand. Guys like Trench and I will have multiple women begging us to give them kids! 
Just great a planet full of toilet paper and hot babe hogs like trenchcoat and billyb.   

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Chelseaboy on March 11, 2021, 07:16:28 AM
ke up

  For me at my age I'm willing to take a small chance and if it all goes south then its just the way it goes, not going to live forever nor I'm sure I would want too.





I wouldn't mind living forever if i kept the body and mind of when i was 21..but nah who really wants to live out eternal life dribbling in a care home not knowing who you or anyone else is.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 11, 2021, 08:41:03 AM
My 53 year-old brother,who has Diabetes type 2, had his first Pfizer jab last week with no ill-effects so far.


His wife ,who's 46 and has Asthma,had her Oxford jab in the same week and was really ill next day with nausea and vomiting but she's fine now.


My brother is nagging me to get mine but i'm inclined to think like GQBlues on this in that i survived the darkest Corona times without any problems..so what's the rush ?


I did have my first Flu jab this year though ; )

Yeah theoretically if enough people get the jab then it will stop transmission enough that the remaining who haven't taken the jab will avoid it as the virus won't be able to transmit easily enough. However if it mutates enough then who knows. I think at the moment people are banking on it not mutating enough and it dying off globally before that happens. So just avoiding getting the vaccine may play out ok so long as not too many do so. From what I can see the more sparsely populated places in the world have suffered least from the virus so that suggests such a strategy may bear out. I'll likely just get the Oxford jab as I don't reckon the downsides are that bad for most people so might as well take a punt on that one.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 11, 2021, 09:05:41 AM
Perhaps check the scientific papers instead of fearmedia.And I could do with a lower fertility. :D



I don't pay much attention to the left or right media on this issue. It's common sense that new medicines require time before determining they're safe. When it comes to creating COVID vaccines using new technology, time to conclude certain studies hasn't happened. If a 16 yo child has almost no chance in dying from COVID, IMO it's absolutely irresponsible for a parent to give them an mRNA vaccine knowing certain studies such as reproductive toxicity hasn't concluded. What do you say to your kids or young adults you've pushed the vaccine on when it's discovered there's damage to their ovaries or nuts? Unfortunately people aren't being educated on this because if people were told the truth about studies on safety haven't been concluded, a lot of people would reject mRNA vaccines and they don't want that to happen. Here's what I wrote in a post earlier that they aren't telling you. From the horse's mouth, not media or government BS. Notice the video of Bill Gates's statement has been removed. Truth hurts.


According to page 132 of Pfizer's clinical protocals, they require males in the study to refrain from donating sperm and ask them to not have unprotected sex with females who can bear children. Females in the study need to take precautions from getting pregnant

http://pfe-pfizercom-d8-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/2020-11/C4591001_Clinical_Protocol_Nov2020.pdf (http://pfe-pfizercom-d8-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/2020-11/C4591001_Clinical_Protocol_Nov2020.pdf)

From the FDA, a Dec 10th Pfizer document been released and at the bottom of page 12 talks about findings and outcomes of certain studies but when it came to study on Developmental and Reproductive Toxicity, the study is 'ongoing' yet they've approved the vaccine for release. So my recommendation for anybody wanting to have kids in the future is to avoid the Pfizer, Moderna, or any vaccine that is mRNA based. It would be a shame if 5-10 years from now they tell us they made a mistake releasing it too soon.

http://www.fda.gov/media/144246/download (http://www.fda.gov/media/144246/download)

A news anchor asks Bill Gates if vaccines are safe because there's a high rate of side effects among the people who are taking vaccines. Bill Gates's answer doesn't give me confidence.

http://twitter.com/WarTimeGirl/status/1343673202971717644 (http://twitter.com/WarTimeGirl/status/1343673202971717644)



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 11, 2021, 09:14:31 AM

We haven’t found immunity for the common flu what makes you believe this vaccine can against COVID? Take the vaccine if you think it helps. If this virus is as deadly as most believe it is, catch up on reality a bit and look up mortality rate, whether domestic or global. Survivability rate, CFR....


I believe in the not so distant past real science actually proved that our immune systems actually does develop immunity to both the common cold and flu. For most of us it will do the same to the China virus. The virus weakens in time as it infects and our immune systems starts developing anti-bodies. That makes us get better. It's a self protection mechanism, the mRNA looks to change that.

Now, we have Fauci, Dr. Bill Gates, the WHO, big pharma and the technocrats who promote depopulation saving mankind with "new normal science" with a lust to inject everyone on the planet with their miracle cure. Folks need to be waking up

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 11, 2021, 12:09:14 PM
BillyB, and how did you conclude that his can cause a problem wit fertility?
The issue is that as a zygote and fetus develop, they should do so free from any strange chemical substances. No matter if it is nicotine, alcohol, many prescription drugs and certain chemicals in food.Pregnant women are advised to follow a special diet and refrain from taking any medication.There for it is not strange that a vaccine that creates antibodies for a rather dangerous disease is not something you wish to get in or near a pregnancy.EDIT as for asking Bill Gayrd on medical issues it is like trusting the opinion of your doctor on how to fix your PC.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 11, 2021, 12:43:32 PM

BillyB, and how did you conclude that his can cause a problem wit fertility?


From Pfizer's and the FDA's own websites, the safety trials pertaining to toxic reproductivity has not been concluded. We and they don't know if it's safe or harmful to our reproductive system. With that knowledge, would you inject that vaccine into your body? Would you inject that vaccine into your own child's body? How can anybody promote mRNA vaccines after what I just showed when there are safer vaccines out there to choose from? What is the rush? A child or young adult almost has zero chance of dying. There's no reason to pump an mRNA vaccine into their bodies. The elderly who have a much higher chance of dying and are not likely to have kids can take their chances with the vaccine.

mRNA vaccines have been studied for decades but none has been approved on humans until now. Moderna makes nothing but mRNA medicine. They've been in business for 11 years and have never created a product that was approved to be used on humans. Heck, they've never had a product that made it to stage 3 trials. Ask yourself why. Now they rush the COVID vaccine into our bodies. Here's their history.

http://www.modernatx.com/pipeline


A healthy 39 yo woman dies after taking an mRNA vaccine. Doctors concluded she needed an emergency liver transplant to survive. Maybe the vaccine caused her problems, maybe not. So far based on early reporting and although there remains a miniscule chance to die after taking an mRNA vaccine, people are 100 times more likely to die over those taking a flu shot. Maybe we'll read more stories like this woman dying. Maybe someday we'll watch a commercial saying we're entitled to compensation in a class action suit, which happens a lot in America, if we took an mRNA vaccine. I doubt it since vaccine manufactures were granted immunity from being sued. There are proven safer vaccines out there folks. Choose wisely. Let somebody else be the guinea pig.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/39-year-old-healthy-utah-mother-dies-after-taking-second-dose-of-moderna-vaccine_3729443.html?utm_source=pushengage
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on March 11, 2021, 01:22:02 PM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/alg031121dAPR20210311124518.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 11, 2021, 11:46:30 PM



At least 7 European nations suspend the AstraZeneca vaccine to investigate reports of blood clots resulting in death.

http://www.dw.com/en/covid-several-european-countries-halt-use-of-astrazeneca-vaccine/a-56835406

http://www.france24.com/en/europe/20210311-covid-19-denmark-pauses-use-of-astrazeneca-vaccine-over-blood-clot-fears



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 12, 2021, 08:04:58 AM
From Pfizer's and the FDA's own websites, the safety trials pertaining to toxic reproductivity has not been concluded.
And if you read the rest of my post, you notice this is not about your BillyB count but about messing with a pregnancy. You do not want the immune system of a pregnant woman compromise as it might consider the zygote or fetus as an intruder that needs to be attacked.Zero to do with your possibility to reproduce.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 12, 2021, 08:08:38 AM
And if you read the rest of my post, you notice this is not about your BillyB count but about messing with a pregnancy. You do not want the immune system of a pregnant woman compromise as it might consider the zygote or fetus as an intruder that needs to be attacked.Zero to do with your possibility to reproduce.

A compromised immune system in males also affect sperm count. Just FYI
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 12, 2021, 08:20:07 AM
A compromised immune system in males also affect sperm count. Just FYI
I know what you mean... I was born with one and every time I have unprotected sex it causes a pregnancy... :TMI:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 12, 2021, 08:27:05 AM
I know what you mean... I was born with one and every time I have unprotected sex it causes a pregnancy... :TMI:

 :D While I can appreciate your injection of humor, I was stating fact. Big Pharma stated early on that a side effect of the vaxx could likely be a lower sperm count and an interruption of menstrual cycles and egg production. They admit this.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 12, 2021, 10:00:59 AM
You do not want the immune system of a pregnant woman compromise as it might consider the zygote or fetus as an intruder that needs to be attacked.Zero to do with your possibility to reproduce.



Shadow, I gave an example of what could go wrong. You gave an example of what could go wrong. There are many things that could go wrong. There is an ongoing study of reproductive toxicity that may not conclude for years. They currently don't know everything that could go wrong. They have an idea but they aren't certain. Maybe nothing goes wrong but it would be a shame years from now they told people they made a mistake. Before I came here to educate people about mRNA vaccines, which the media failed to do, some or most of you guys would give that vaccine to your kids. Now after learning more about mRNA vaccines, nobody should be giving those vaccines to their kids or pushing them on adults who still want to have kids.


I hope you read the Pfizer documents I provided telling the volunteers in their study to not have unprotected sex. Did anybody here who also got the mRNA vaccine get that warning too before they injected it into your body?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 12, 2021, 10:41:30 AM

Shadow, I gave an example of what could go wrong. You gave an example of what could go wrong. There are many things that could go wrong. There is an ongoing study of reproductive toxicity that may not conclude for years. They currently don't know everything that could go wrong. They have an idea but they aren't certain. Maybe nothing goes wrong but it would be a shame years from now they told people they made a mistake. Before I came here to educate people about mRNA vaccines, which the media failed to do, some or most of you guys would give that vaccine to your kids. Now after learning more about mRNA vaccines, nobody should be giving those vaccines to their kids or pushing them on adults who still want to have kids.


I hope you read the Pfizer documents I provided telling the volunteers in their study to not have unprotected sex. Did anybody here who also got the mRNA vaccine get that warning too before they injected it into your body?
And once again the fear of your manhood stops you from reading the point of that advice.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 12, 2021, 11:33:21 AM

the fear

There is no fear. It's common sense to not inject something into your body when safety studies have not concluded. If you want to recommend people injecting mRNA vaccines into their and their children's bodies because you'd do so, you're free to make that statement. When it's time to vaccinate yourself and your family, which brand vaccine are you going to take?


Here's a different angle why vaccines may be dangerous. Geert Vanden Bossche, PhD, DVM who is an expert in vaccines and once worked as a senior project manager for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation is asking WHO to halt all vaccinations and re-evaluate the strategy to defeat COVID. He says we could be making a major blunder on humanity. The vaccines aren't good enough to stop the virus from mutating and it is currently mutating in ways that make it immune to vaccines.

Here's a 2 minute video

http://www.reddit.com/r/LockdownSkepticism/comments/m33li0/geert_vanden_bossche_phd_dvm_urgent_call_to_who/

Here's a statement

http://twitter.com/raisoncommune/status/1367027590310068229

His credentials

http://be.linkedin.com/in/geertvandenbossche

http://www.linkedin.com/in/geert-vanden-bossche-77122913


I have a cousin who has a PhD in Biology and she is far left. She always tells me to listen to her in debates and to follow the science. I drive her crazy when I show her scientists that contradict what she believes in. I remind her science isn't perfect and scientists are humans with flaws. Maybe Geert Vanden Bossche is right or maybe he's wrong but so far the COVID mutations have shown to be more resistant to the newly developed vaccines which is making his theory sound legit.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 12, 2021, 12:09:35 PM
:D While I can appreciate your injection of humor, I was stating fact. Big Pharma stated early on that a side effect of the vaxx could likely be a lower sperm count and an interruption of menstrual cycles and egg production. They admit this.


I theorize that maybe the world population haven't had a check balance in its explosive growth lately that we needed a way to curb or regulate our uncontrollable population ascent. We haven't suffered global conflicts that resulted in tens of millions of deaths. Wars, plagues, etc...had been held in check for decades now. They tried AIDS, Ebola, SARS, MERS, and now COVID-19 and FWIW - it's  total flop...2.5 million dead and the majority of which are literally past their reproductive ages.


Hunger actually caused a global death count that's almost 3 times the death COVID extolled upon us, yet our scientists wrestled with a vaccine to 'help us' fight another virus knowing viruses are a pesky bunch - ain't no stopping these brand of molecules. One would think if saving lives really is our priority, we'd all be busy churning food and nutrition to avert death by starvation on a global scale instead.


7 million perished last year because of hunger. COVID-19, less than 2 mil at EOY; and for many of those indifferent to such a defeating state, found themselves instead fighting each other on who gets to load up on toilet paper inventory.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 12, 2021, 09:15:13 PM

I theorize that maybe the world population haven't had a check balance in its explosive growth lately that we needed a way to curb or regulate our uncontrollable population ascent. We haven't suffered global conflicts that resulted in tens of millions of deaths. Wars, plagues, etc...had been held in check for decades now. They tried AIDS, Ebola, SARS, MERS, and now COVID-19 and FWIW - it's  total flop...2.5 million dead and the majority of which are literally past their reproductive ages.
Interesting theory although population is already set to decline in much of the world.   The parts of the world where population is rising don't have very good access to the vaccines and most of the deaths weren't in their regions either. 

If I recall correctly many projections are speeding up the day where the world hits it's peak population, and the number is lower than it was a few years ago.

Fathertime! 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 13, 2021, 09:32:55 AM
Here’s a good information site from the same source we get a lot of the COVID-related data from. It’s a perpetual information source of all things that can be accounted for, deaths, birth, etc...

http://www.worldometers.info/

There’s a 1:1 ratio of obese people in the world compared to those who are starved. While we went bonkers at the tally of COVID related deaths, abortion count this year is already a whopping 8 million. Nearly 11,000 folks already died from hunger so far today. Which is probably attributable to the 1.4 million children deaths under 5 so far this year. Etcetera.

What a difference it makes when something is sensationalize by the media and it becomes political.

8 million abortion in one year! Damn, and no one bats an eye. How many perished in the holocausts again?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on March 13, 2021, 10:31:59 AM
Here’s a good information site from the same source we get a lot of the COVID-related data from. It’s a perpetual information source of all things that can be accounted for, deaths, birth, etc...

http://www.worldometers.info/

There’s a 1:1 ratio of obese people in the world compared to those who are starved. While we went bonkers at the tally of COVID related deaths, abortion count this year is already a whopping 8 million. Nearly 11,000 folks already died from hunger so far today. Which is probably attributable to the 1.4 million children deaths under 5 so far this year. Etcetera.

What a difference it makes when something is sensationalize by the media and it becomes political.

8 million abortion in one year! Damn, and no one bats an eye. How many perished in the holocausts again?

I know nothing about anything.

However, I do know that in any scientific studies . . . the unknown is, what would have happened in the absence of action X.

In the current case . . . what would the death rate and total deaths have been, if we did not undergo a partial or total lockdown and if we did/do not inoculate a large percentage of the population?

Only computer models with various assumptions can give estimated answers.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 13, 2021, 07:18:43 PM

In the current case . . . what would the death rate and total deaths have been, if we did not undergo a partial or total lockdown and if we did/do not inoculate a large percentage of the population?

Only computer models with various assumptions can give estimated answers.
I suspect had people lived the exact way we did before the death count would be 5 times more dead in the states ...maybe more. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Chelseaboy on March 13, 2021, 07:30:19 PM
Nine people in a care-home in Exmouth,Devon have died of Covid-19 in February....after they had their first vaccinations in January.,


There had been no cases of Covid-19 in the care-home in the previous eleven months.


News of these deaths only broke two days ago...so how many others don't we know about yet ?


Are the vaccines not working ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 14, 2021, 01:07:47 AM
Dr. Carrie Madej asks "What happens when your body's own cells are programmed to keep making the protein of an invader, nonstop, forever and ever, with no programmed end date?

She also asks "What happens when your immune system is in perpetual overdrive, tricked into believing there's a pathogen that just never goes away?"

Anybody have a good answer?

Dr Geert Venden Bossche said we could be making a colossal blunder on humanity. He thinks the virus can learn to defeat our natural immunity and vaccines with the vaccination program we're currently implementing. Are we going to continue to write new programs for our immune system for new viruses without the ability to end the old program?

http://gab.com/klrowe29/posts/105877614488097573
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 14, 2021, 03:57:24 AM
On another note the virus is resurgent across the EU on a third wave due to the EU's blunder with their EU Vaccination Scheme causing a slow rollout of the vaccines. Luckily for us Brits we have left the EU and passed over on the offer to join the EU Vaccination Scheme during the transition period. Had we joined we would have been suffering the same as the EU countries with a third wave and many more deaths. Pleased we managed to avoid yet another EU blunder!  :)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 14, 2021, 09:18:00 AM
I know nothing about anything.

However, I do know that in any scientific studies . . . the unknown is, what would have happened in the absence of action X.

In the current case . . . what would the death rate and total deaths have been, if we did not undergo a partial or total lockdown and if we did/do not inoculate a large percentage of the population?

Only computer models with various assumptions can give estimated answers.

Actually there seem to already have enough scientific evidentiary data to suggest we can make that conclusion based on the 3 recent viral pandemic.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7238751/#:~:text=Symptoms%20of%20the%20novel%20coronavirus,)%20%5B5%5D.
Read: Etiologies of each virus.

Quote
The new coronavirus was named SARS-CoV-2, belongs to β-coronaviruses based on the genome sequence and infects the upper and lower respiratory tract. Symptoms of the novel coronavirus strain are milder than SARS and MERS, but it transmits from human-to-human faster than them. Besides, the mortality rate of SARS-CoV-2 is lower (3.4%) than that of SARS-CoV (9.6%) and MERS (35%) [5].

COVID-19 is much more contagious but far less virulent to the average population with comorbidity-free. There were/are more asymptomatic cases with this virus than its first two cousins. We basically locked down all activities generally populated by young relatively healthy folks. Consequently, many who didn’t need to die became collateral casualties as a result of this drastic reaction. Suicides, drug overdose, etc...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 14, 2021, 10:48:37 AM




"the mortality rate of SARS-CoV-2 is lower (3.4%) than that of SARS-CoV (9.6%) and MERS (35%"

Worldwide the mortality rate of SARS-CoV was 9.6%. Remove the Chinese reported numbers and the mortality rate was around 14%. A lot of nations are manipulating the mortality rate of SARS-CoV-2. Their mortality rates are lower than developed nations with the best health care when in fact, their mortality rates should be higher.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 14, 2021, 11:42:39 AM
Interesting theory although population is already set to decline in much of the world. The parts of the world where population is rising don't have very good access to the vaccines and most of the deaths weren't in their regions either. 

If I recall correctly many projections are speeding up the day where the world hits it's peak population, and the number is lower than it was a few years ago.

Fathertime! 

Fathertime!

I've heard that but find it strange. As a whole most but not all people are living longer I would have thought than decades ago. So that would keep the population figures up a bit. Add to that say a couple that knock out kids at 20 in 20 years time they can knock out kids (or sooner) so would think that is a pretty fast multiplying situation. I know they say there are more single people than previous decades but I don't really notice that out and around. Still seems to be couples, families to me really. Makes me wonder where all these single people are and what they do with their time. I've always kind of got the impression that most people fear being alone in life so always seemed to think they find others and are interested in having children as with a lot of relationships they can end at any time.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: John Gaunt on March 14, 2021, 08:59:27 PM
I've heard that but find it strange. As a whole most but not all people are living longer I would have thought than decades ago. So that would keep the population figures up a bit. Add to that say a couple that knock out kids at 20 in 20 years time they can knock out kids (or sooner) so would think that is a pretty fast multiplying situation. I know they say there are more single people than previous decades but I don't really notice that out and around. Still seems to be couples, families to me really. Makes me wonder where all these single people are and what they do with their time. I've always kind of got the impression that most people fear being alone in life so always seemed to think they find others and are interested in having children as with a lot of relationships they can end at any time.
It’s because the birth rate has dropped so low in most western countries that their populations are close to collapse. Why do you think western governments are so pro immigration?

Likewise, as the poorer economies catch up, as women have better access to contraception and education, their birth rates slow down to a point where their populations are not being replaced.
China, for example, where the population is set to decline to about 7 billion by 2100 from its current 1.3 billion or so. ( not exact figures as I’m going from memory)
Similarly, India’s population will stabilise mid century and then start to decline.
It’s very simple. More people dying then being born.
Of course, in countries like Germany, the birth rate amongst immigrant populations is fast increasing so by mid century it’s predicted the indigenous population will be a minority.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 15, 2021, 06:52:45 AM
It’s because the birth rate has dropped so low in most western countries that their populations are close to collapse. Why do you think western governments are so pro immigration?

Likewise, as the poorer economies catch up, as women have better access to contraception and education, their birth rates slow down to a point where their populations are not being replaced.

Correct. 

Most people wrongly think India and China will grow significantly.  Africa is the only continent with significant population growth.  The population of Nigeria is expected to surpass the US by 2050. 

Expected 21st century annual population growth (% annual change)    


                        2020-25  2045-50   2095-00
Africa                      2.4     1.8           0.6
Asia                        0.8       0.1         −0.4
Europe                  0.0        −0.3         −0.1
Latin America         0.8        0.2        −0.5
Northern America     0.6     0.3           0.2
Oceania                  1.2       0.8         0.4
World                     1.0        0.5           0.0



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projections_of_population_growth
 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 15, 2021, 10:49:59 AM
Correct. 

Most people wrongly think India and China will grow significantly.  Africa is the only continent with significant population growth.  The population of Nigeria is expected to surpass the US by 2050. 

Expected 21st century annual population growth (% annual change)    


                        2020-25  2045-50   2095-00
Africa                      2.4     1.8           0.6
Asia                        0.8       0.1         −0.4
Europe                  0.0        −0.3         −0.1
Latin America         0.8        0.2        −0.5
Northern America     0.6     0.3           0.2
Oceania                  1.2       0.8         0.4
World                     1.0        0.5           0.0



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projections_of_population_growth
 

Going by these stats Gator while populations are looking like they are going to decrease in some parts of the world it's not quite the 'collapse' John Gaunt seems to suggest. Looks to me more like they level off then decline a little and that's probably not a bad thing if we consider stuff like robotics, online shopping, computer automation, etc likely to decrease the number of jobs available in the future. It will also mean we'll be able to keep consuming meat without cutting down any more rainforest which is a big bear for environmentalists.

I've heard the UK's population will likely keep up mainly due to immigration while other countries populations may decline. I still think there will only be slight falling off overall. Some couples just have one child so that means when they pass on they aren't both replaced at the same rate. Probably just as well we're not all pushing out loads of kids like they used too as then I think that would be a far greater cause for concern & trouble than a bit off a fall off in numbers.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 15, 2021, 01:59:10 PM
Anyway virus rates going up in Ukraine, have you heard off how things are on the ground there of recent Billy?

Meanwhile France has just suspended the use of the Astra Zenaca vaccine along with some other EU countries already doing the same. That will likely prolong their virus problem as they are already short of vaccine so it will make their vaccine supply issues worse. First they can't get enough of the Oxford vaccine now they don't want to use it lol. In any case I'm still happy to take the Oxford vaccine, even if there is a link with blood clotting the odds are real low, a handful out of 17 million who have already taken the vaccine. For me dying is one thing but living with lifelong bad health is the thing to really avoid I feel.

It must be said I think that countries like France, Italy, Germany etc are likely to lose more people in the virus spreading as it is at present than if they carried on vaccinating people with the Oxford vaccine. Pfizer for certain can't boost off less possibly related deaths that the Oxford vaccine so all seems a bit silly to me then taking it off use. I would say at least let people decide for themselves if they wish to take it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 15, 2021, 09:49:21 PM
It’s because the birth rate has dropped so low in most western countries that their populations are close to collapse. Why do you think western governments are so pro immigration?
Yes, many people in western countries have chosen to not create children, or have tried and been unsuccessful.  Immigration is necessary to keep the countries from becoming too grey.   In the case of the USA the graying and gaying of America would have already caused major problems if not for the last few waves of illegal immigrants.  If indeed america is great, it is their children that are responsible! 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 15, 2021, 09:59:28 PM
Anyway virus rates going up in Ukraine, have you heard off how things are on the ground there of recent Billy?



My MIL who is over there says it's very bad.




Meanwhile France has just suspended the use of the Astra Zenaca vaccine along with some other EU countries already doing the same. That will likely prolong their virus problem as they are already short of vaccine so it will make their vaccine supply issues worse. First they can't get enough of the Oxford vaccine now they don't want to use it lol. In any case I'm still happy to take the Oxford vaccine, even if there is a link with blood clotting the odds are real low, a handful out of 17 million who have already taken the vaccine. For me dying is one thing but living with lifelong bad health is the thing to really avoid I feel.



I don't know about the governments over there but no COVID vaccine that has been approved by the American government. The ones we are using have been given emergency use authorization.


Another issue with AstraZeneca and Johnson and Johnson vaccines is they aren't going to be embraced by religious people since they contain DNA and tissue from monkeys and/or human fetuses.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: John Gaunt on March 16, 2021, 04:14:46 AM
Yes, many people in western countries have chosen to not create children, or have tried and been unsuccessful.  Immigration is necessary to keep the countries from becoming too grey.   In the case of the USA the graying and gaying of America would have already caused major problems if not for the last few waves of illegal immigrants.  If indeed america is great, it is their children that are responsible! 

Fathertime!
I don’t think immigration is the answer because, guess what? Immigrants grow old too.

I think the answer is advocacy for a simpler lifestyle without the rampant consumerism that drives modern economies.
Then there wouldn’t be the need for the huge labour forces to fill jobs to create products or support lifestyles that one can really do without.

PS. I know you’re a Bidener but no need to make this political.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: John Gaunt on March 16, 2021, 04:25:18 AM
Going by these stats Gator while populations are looking like they are going to decrease in some parts of the world it's not quite the 'collapse' John Gaunt seems to suggest. Looks to me more like they level off then decline a little and that's probably not a bad thing if we consider stuff like robotics, online shopping, computer automation, etc likely to decrease the number of jobs available in the future. It will also mean we'll be able to keep consuming meat without cutting down any more rainforest which is a big bear for environmentalists.

I've heard the UK's population will likely keep up mainly due to immigration while other countries populations may decline. I still think there will only be slight falling off overall. Some couples just have one child so that means when they pass on they aren't both replaced at the same rate. Probably just as well we're not all pushing out loads of kids like they used too as then I think that would be a far greater cause for concern & trouble than a bit off a fall off in numbers.
Gators numbers are from Wicki so may not be the most reliable.

You should do a little research to educate yourself.
I’ll give you a little leg up.
 This  (http://emerging-europe.com/news/is-emerging-europes-population-really-set-to-fall-more-than-50-per-cent-by-2100/) is a good article although I don’t agree with some of its conclusions around increasing immigration as that'll just result in more of the same.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 16, 2021, 04:38:53 AM
I don’t think immigration is the answer because, guess what? Immigrants grow old too.

I think the answer is advocacy for a simpler lifestyle without the rampant consumerism that drives modern economies.
Then there wouldn’t be the need for the huge labour forces to fill jobs to create products or support lifestyles that one can really do without.

PS. I know you’re a Bidener but no need to make this political.
You are wrong, where did I mention biden?  What does biden have to do with this?  Why are you making it political now?  BTW, I wasn't a trump supporter, nor am I am 'bidener', although he may be better than trump.

Of course I would agree partially with rampant consumerism comment, although that is the American way nowadays.  Most of our consumer goods are made in China, so it isn't as if our labor force is being used locally.   The immigrants are the plumbers, the roofers, the drywallers....the custodians...they are staff in old age homes.  Despite the grumblings, by and large we are lucky to have them at our beck and call...for now. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: John Gaunt on March 16, 2021, 06:36:05 AM
You are wrong, where did I mention biden?  What does biden have to do with this?  Why are you making it political now?  BTW, I wasn't a trump supporter, nor am I am 'bidener', although he may be better than trump.

Of course I would agree partially with rampant consumerism comment, although that is the American way nowadays.  Most of our consumer goods are made in China, so it isn't as if our labor force is being used locally.   The immigrants are the plumbers, the roofers, the drywallers....the custodians...they are staff in old age homes.  Despite the grumblings, by and large we are lucky to have them at our beck and call...for now. 

Fathertime!
Just going by the tone of your posts on balance you come across as more of a Bidener even if you haven’t explicitly mentioned him.

It’s not just consumerism though. It’s the whole way of life predicated around consumerism, regardless of where products are made. End result, society requires masses of labour.
You support immigration but it really isn’t the solution as that just eventually leads back to the same problem.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 16, 2021, 07:14:10 AM
Just going by the tone of your posts on balance you come across as more of a Bidener even if you haven’t explicitly mentioned him.
 
So why are you making up BS about biden and attributing it to me?  Stick to the point which wasn't biden.  Why don't you take a look at the post you are saying I 'biden'fied' and explain how you came to that I bidenfied the topic?  I've simply stated a view on immigration illegal and legal. 


It’s not just consumerism though. It’s the whole way of life predicated around consumerism, regardless of where products are made. End result, society requires masses of labour.
What are you saying here?  without the immigrants in recent decades the US would already be an old greying nation.  As earlier stated, the immigrants are providing many services that our nation wants.  They often take care of the elderly for example, and also childcare.     Building houses is dominated by immigrants and the sons/daughters of immigrants.   Agriculture too.  I don't see many 75 year olds picking grapes and strawberries.  Of course there are other solutions.   


You support immigration but it really isn’t the solution as that just eventually leads back to the same problem.
What is the 'same problem'?   Is there currently a pressing problem?   In 50 years, technology may well solve a lot of the potential problems, and overall population is on course to slow and perhaps decline.   
I do agree that silly consumerism is unnecessary and wasteful, although I won't attempt to dictate what others do with the money they have earned.  Personally I rarely buy anything outside of direct needs although I have the resources to do so.  So in that respect I'm not a good consumer for the economy. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on March 16, 2021, 07:33:03 AM
We do NOT need immigration to survive as a country.
Nothing wrong with a declining population over time.
Probably would make our country better.
We can find people right here in our country to do the agricultural work, yard work, taking care of nursing home folks, etc.
It's all about wage rates and forcing those on welfare (who are not handicapped) to take jobs if they want a cash flow coming in.
I will do some yard work . . . or force my wife to do so . . . for a 'correct' wage !!!  :-)

Speaking of yard work . . . a solution is to have required wages so high that people cannot afford to have extensive manicured properties.  Then we would go to more use of 'natural' landscaping along with sand, pebbles, river rock, etc., laid over landscape fabric to replace grass.  Would save a lot of water also, which is in short supply in many areas.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: John Gaunt on March 16, 2021, 12:33:37 PM
So why are you making up BS about biden and attributing it to me?  Stick to the point which wasn't biden.  Why don't you take a look at the post you are saying I 'biden'fied' and explain how you came to that I bidenfied the topic?  I've simply stated a view on immigration illegal and legal. 
Why are you getting so raggedy arsed over this? I’ve already explained it to you. Is it that difficult to comprehend?
Quote
What are you saying here?  without the immigrants in recent decades the US would already be an old greying nation.  As earlier stated, the immigrants are providing many services that our nation wants.  They often take care of the elderly for example, and also childcare.     Building houses is dominated by immigrants and the sons/daughters of immigrants.   Agriculture too.  I don't see many 75 year olds picking grapes and strawberries.  Of course there are other solutions.   
What I’m saying is that with immigration the country ends up with more grey.
People have become lazy and want everything done for them around the clock, that’s why there’s 24/7 shopping, dining etc, all on demand. A world of instant gratification and Walmart.
Without this constant stream of cheap labour feeding the demand things might be different.
People would have to graft for themselves.
Quote
What is the 'same problem'?   Is there currently a pressing problem?   In 50 years, technology may well solve a lot of the potential problems, and overall population is on course to slow and perhaps decline.   
The solution being offered is never ending immigration from the south to the north. Those people will grow old too. That’s the ‘same’ I’m talking about. Pretty obvious I’d have thought.
Quote
I do agree that silly consumerism is unnecessary and wasteful,

We can agree on this.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 16, 2021, 12:57:06 PM
Continued mix messages about the vaccine. This from the Mayo Clinic.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-vaccine/art-20484859#safety-precautions (http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-vaccine/art-20484859#safety-precautions)


What are the benefits of getting a COVID-19 vaccine?

A COVID-19 vaccine might:
Prevent you from getting COVID-19 or from becoming seriously ill or dying due to COVID-19
Prevent you from spreading the COVID-19 virus to others
Add to the number of people in the community who are protected from getting COVID-19 — making it harder for the disease to spread and contributing to herd immunity
Prevent the COVID-19 virus from spreading and replicating, which allows it to mutate and possibly become more resistant to vaccines.

Then on the next page, they say:

Can I stop taking safety precautions after getting a COVID-19 vaccine?
After getting a COVID-19 vaccine, the CDC recommends that it’s OK for fully vaccinated people to:
Visit other fully vaccinated people indoors — without wearing masks or avoiding close contact
Visit unvaccinated people from one household who are at low risk for severe illness from COVID-19 — indoors and without wearing masks or avoiding close contact.
You are considered fully vaccinated 2 weeks after you get a second dose of an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine or 2 weeks after you get a single dose of the Johnson & Johnson COVID-19 vaccine.

However, vaccinated people should continue to take safety precautions, such as wearing a mask and avoiding close contact (within about 6 feet, or 2 meters) with others, when they are:
In public
Visiting people who are unvaccinated and at increased risk for severe illness from COVID-19
Visiting people who have an unvaccinated household member at increased risk for severe illness from COVID-19
Visiting unvaccinated people from many households
Keep in mind that if you’re fully vaccinated from COVID-19, your risk of getting COVID-19 might be low. But if you become infected, you might spread the COVID-19 virus to others even if you don’t have any signs or symptoms of COVID-19.
*Might*?!? It would've been far more economical if they just said, take the vaccine at your own peril because as of right now no one still understands, much less know, with great certainty how effective it really is.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 16, 2021, 01:45:26 PM
Why are you getting so raggedy arsed over this? I’ve already explained it to you. Is it that difficult to comprehend?
Because I feel like giving you some crap for making up the biden-ification of the topic which I DID NOT start. 

What I’m saying is that with immigration the country ends up with more grey.
People have become lazy and want everything done for them around the clock, that’s why there’s 24/7 shopping, dining etc, all on demand. A world of instant gratification and Walmart.
Without this constant stream of cheap labour feeding the demand things might be different.
People would have to graft for themselves.The solution being offered is never ending immigration from the south to the north. Those people will grow old too. That’s the ‘same’ I’m talking about. Pretty obvious I’d have thought.
Well obviously everybody gets old although not all at once which is where we would have been on course for.   Immigration is how the country is getting a lot of work done here. 
There are indeed a lot of lazy people here, all you have to do is look at the size of the average american.   If we (US citizens) don't want immigration then we can do our own work, and look after ourselves, our children, our elderly.   Generally speaking, the reality is we don't do these things.      Like in China, we would have the 4-2-1 problem.   Immigration keeps the population young and vibrant. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 16, 2021, 02:19:02 PM
FWIW.

Immigration is not, never has been, the problem in the US. It's the ILLEGAL immigration that is.

It is advocated, allowed and supported by most liberal politicians and a huge number of Republican politicians who receive untold hundreds of millions in the form of paybacks, campaign donations, sidekicks, etc..by the likes of Koch brothers, unions, Waltons, Tyson Foods, Foster Farms, etc...and a slew of agricultural numbskulls.


The US is NOT better of because of ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION. Not for the general citizenry (we pay for their welfare and keep via taxation, the crony elite and politicians reap benefit) and certainly not for the economy. All it does is promote poverty, burden public education, and criminalities...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Chelseaboy on March 17, 2021, 10:17:49 AM
We do NOT need immigration to survive as a country.
Nothing wrong with a declining population over time.
Probably would make our country better.
We can find people right here in our country to do the agricultural work, yard work, taking care of nursing home folks, etc.
It's all about wage rates and forcing those on welfare (who are not handicapped) to take jobs if they want a cash flow coming in.
I will do some yard work . . . or force my wife to do so . . . for a 'correct' wage !!!  :-)

Speaking of yard work . . . a solution is to have required wages so high that people cannot afford to have extensive manicured properties.  Then we would go to more use of 'natural' landscaping along with sand, pebbles, river rock, etc., laid over landscape fabric to replace grass.  Would save a lot of water also, which is in short supply in many areas.


I feel the same way about the UK.


If the wages are decent enough to encourage people to get off benefits and into work,we don't need low-paid immigrants .


The only people who benefit from immigration are companies/bosses who make bigger profits by employing immigrants on low wages,rather than pay a decent wage to British workers.


Less immigration means less crime.less demand on housing,less intensive farming to feed a growing population,a higher standard of living due to higher earnings and a lot less kids living in poverty and less demand for food banks...in other words it would make the UK a more pleasant place to live in...instead of the shoitehole it's rapidly becoming.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 17, 2021, 12:01:20 PM
Well to all who believe we do not need those pesky immigrants. How about putting out an ad for heavy physical work and then ensuring you will only hire your countrymen.
Even if you place this at the unemployment agencies with help from the social workers in sending people I doubt you will get more than 10 people. Meanwhile there will about 100 immigrants begging you to hire them at half the pay.Yes we do need cheap labour, and people willing to do hard workAnd mot who complain about them will not rise their butt for minimal wages, as they are used to getting nearly the same plus benefits for not doing anything (legal)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 17, 2021, 01:04:12 PM
Well to all who believe we do not need those pesky immigrants. How about putting out an ad for heavy physical work and then ensuring you will only hire your countrymen.
Even if you place this at the unemployment agencies with help from the social workers in sending people I doubt you will get more than 10 people.


We look for unskilled labor every single day. Can't find them because thousands are all working. Tens of thousands remain in this line of work all the way to their retirement. The notion no one wants to do hard work in the US is a myth.


Quote
Meanwhile there will about 100 immigrants begging you to hire them at half the pay.


We wouldn't hire them because we are co-signatory to eVerify. It's against the law to hire illegal immigrants.


Quote
Yes we do need cheap labour,
Need? No. Can't say anything about your country though. Maybe that's the way it is in the Netherlands.
Quote
...and people willing to do hard work
Again. Plenty of those here.
Quote
..And mot who complain about them will not rise their butt for minimal wages, as they are used to getting nearly the same plus benefits for not doing anything (legal)


I bet you a good wager I've done more hard work in a month than you ever have in a year. Yes, I complain about illegal immigration. Just slow to realize I'm doing so in futility. Our politicians are too busy lining their pockets, along with their respective overlords who hire these illegals, to make sure there's plenty of them coming in our nation every year and if not everyday.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 17, 2021, 01:16:44 PM

I feel the same way about the UK.


If the wages are decent enough to encourage people to get off benefits and into work,we don't need low-paid immigrants .


The only people who benefit from immigration are companies/bosses who make bigger profits by employing immigrants on low wages,rather than pay a decent wage to British workers.


Less immigration means less crime.less demand on housing,less intensive farming to feed a growing population,a higher standard of living due to higher earnings and a lot less kids living in poverty and less demand for food banks...in other words it would make the UK a more pleasant place to live in...instead of the shoitehole it's rapidly becoming.

I agree too a country can definitely be overpopulated. That can lead to problems with housing, jobs, wages being too low and generally people virtually crawling over each other. I also don't think people get to know one another and treat one another well. It all becomes a rat race that is unpleasant for most people. I think unfortunately that the UK went that way somewhat with EU immigration. I don't really see any of the mass immigration into the country as being good for Britain. I've got no problem with the odd few individuals coming in, through marriage, etc but I think apart from the above reasons mass immigration makes a society less cohesive. Had we not had the immigration from Eastern Europe housing would be far more affordable in this country and that beings a much better lifestyle. New houses being built are just tiny, 2 or 3 bed houses with just enough room for a bed, a bedside table and a cupboard in the room, back to terrace housing some of it even smaller than the old Victorian/Edwardian terrace housing yet they expect a whole family to live in there despite there being not enough room to swim a cat lol.

As you know doubt know CB housing was never as big an issue as it used to be today, just used to be a case of buying any place going to live in. Now it's a Kings ransom to just get a small pokey place to get a chance of eeking out a half decent life if you're lucky.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 17, 2021, 01:24:59 PM
Well to all who believe we do not need those pesky immigrants. How about putting out an ad for heavy physical work and then ensuring you will only hire your countrymen.
Even if you place this at the unemployment agencies with help from the social workers in sending people I doubt you will get more than 10 people. Meanwhile there will about 100 immigrants begging you to hire them at half the pay.Yes we do need cheap labour, and people willing to do hard workAnd mot who complain about them will not rise their butt for minimal wages, as they are used to getting nearly the same plus benefits for not doing anything (legal)

All people tend to be pragmatists & opportunitists to a basic level I believe. Anyone going to another country will take the first thing on hand that can be picked up the easiest. They'll do that work for only so long as it seems practical to do so. However, if they get used to it they may stay in it long term as it becomes all they know as they see it and if it seems reliable work then no need to rock the boat by going to other work that may not end up as reliable. So I don't see it as the hard work notion that is something that is down to a type of people more a type of situation. That's not to say that there couldn't be situations where native population would in certain circumstances go for the work I think.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 17, 2021, 01:29:57 PM
Well anyway back to the topic the EU is now threatening to top exports of the Oxford Vaccine even though many of their member states no longer wish to use the Oxford vaccine lol, could it get more ridiculous!

Boris is going for the Oxford vaccine so I think it shows the Oxford is a good choice to  go for.

Meanwhile stocks of the Oxford vaccine are starting to run low here with a reduced Vaccination program planned for April.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on March 17, 2021, 03:27:45 PM
However, vaccinated people should continue to ...............

Let me translate that for you...................

You should continue to obey us as your masters and continue giving your rights
to us. In addition you can lie, cheat or steal as long as it promotes or doesn't
interfere with lefty liberal ideals.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 17, 2021, 08:46:01 PM
Anyone heard from BC of late? He normally posts here every so often but not of recent, possibly caught covid perhaps? Been a lot of it in Italy of late.

Notice someone pointed out no sign of JayH a few weeks back. I know he doesn't always post all the time but another covid one perhaps?

Anyway good to see the rest of you are all here & accounted for and more or less doing well :)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 18, 2021, 12:43:41 AM
Anyone heard from BC of late? He normally posts here every so often but not of recent, possibly caught covid perhaps? Been a lot of it in Italy of late.

Notice someone pointed out no sign of JayH a few weeks back. I know he doesn't always post all the time but another covid one perhaps?

Anyway good to see the rest of you are all here & accounted for and more or less doing well :)
BC usually posts here when his wife is abroad. And I doubt quarantaine of COVID will keep anyone from posting, only the severe hospitalization cases would get to that.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Chelseaboy on March 18, 2021, 04:24:16 AM
JayH hasn't been online since 21/1/20 so probably not Covid-19 related..especially as Australia hasn't been hit very hard by it.


Hopefully he is well and life is treating him well.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 18, 2021, 07:00:11 PM
Oh good stuff, Krim is still MIA so unsure if that's due to the virus or his dealings with the Russian Mafia. Hopefully he'll surface soon :)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Chelseaboy on March 19, 2021, 02:26:54 AM
Yeah Krim did supposedly like living life on the edge.


Always entertaining : )


He was last online on 24/8/20..so it's been a while.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on March 19, 2021, 02:54:07 PM
Anyone heard from BC of late?

We're all doing great.  Just got a bit bored with the RWD merry-go-round for a while. I see it hasn't slowed a bit.  Plenty of outside work to do getting ready for spring.  Garden, trimming trees, pool prep etc etc along with hobbies and of course a lot of good grilling.  A couple of butcher shops in town really upped their game with a nice variety of dry-aged beef from all over Europe and even Iceland. I used to think the only place to get good grilling beef was in the US, but changed my mind after eating a steak from 10+ year old Spanish cow, dry-aged a couple months...  simply amazing.

Anyhoo, as for the topic my vaccination appointment should be coming up soon, but tempted to wait a bit and try out Sputnik V made in Italy.  So many flavors becoming available nowadays.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 20, 2021, 04:36:51 AM
We're all doing great.  Just got a bit bored with the RWD merry-go-round for a while. I see it hasn't slowed a bit.  Plenty of outside work to do getting ready for spring.  Garden, trimming trees, pool prep etc etc along with hobbies and of course a lot of good grilling.  A couple of butcher shops in town really upped their game with a nice variety of dry-aged beef from all over Europe and even Iceland. I used to think the only place to get good grilling beef was in the US, but changed my mind after eating a steak from 10+ year old Spanish cow, dry-aged a couple months...  simply amazing.

Anyhoo, as for the topic my vaccination appointment should be coming up soon, but tempted to wait a bit and try out Sputnik V made in Italy.  So many flavors becoming available nowadays.

That's good to hear you're still knocking around BC as virus cases up throughout the EU including Italy. Well my big news of the day is that I had my Oxford Astra Zenaca jab yesterday on the same day as Boris :D I got it earlier than my age group  as I managed to wangle it somehow even though I don't have any underlying health problems (well not as far as I know). Anyway I'm pleased I got in now as the recent supply chain issue the gov talked about would have meant it would have been put back from mid April until at least early May then it may start to be a bit of trouble lining myself up for the Oxford one as the Moderna one is now currently expected to start in the UK in April. To my mind Moderna is just the same as Pfizer so not one for me.

Anyway, I'm not feeling too bad so far, slightly raised temperature last night for a bit and felt a little strange almost  queasy like but nothing too bad, so far way better than after I had my flu jab. At the moment feeling good enough with no obvious side effects so hopefully it'll stay that way.

Good you enjoy the garden BC the weather here is starting to come around for it :) I don't have a pool but I've got a pond lol I installed it last year and paved over most of the small back garden as otherwise it gets full of long grass and weeds. This way it will be manageable for me and should look nice when I plant a few small trees and plants this year, in the next few weeks most likely. That should provide a nice outside space which is more sought after these days because of the virus. I kind of need to clear a bit out the back to add a small extension so that's the task for me this weekend anyway.

Anyway remember to keep your head down till the current virus spate out there is over BC and I think you'll be alright ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 20, 2021, 07:22:59 AM
After over a year, wifey and I had our movie date again last night. Amazing how no one realized before that passing a 2 trillion dollars pork bill was the magic bullet against COVID-19 and the infamous lockdowns. No wonder they once called this the great reset. Just as interesting no one is talking about infection cases as it had also magically come down.

AMC theater nearly filed BK last October if not for the infusion of nearly a billion dollars. SMG, our preferred theater, didn’t quite make it unfortunately. Inside dining is open on a limited seating. Soon we’ll likely miss outdoor dining, too as it actually made for some romantic ambiance. If any of you are over in LA, try OSPI in Venice. West side’s current hottest dining ticket.

Huge thanks to Trump and his team for the ‘warp speed’ vaccine management.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on March 20, 2021, 09:53:27 AM
The House Democrats just blocked a proposal last Tuesday that would have required illegal immigrants/aliens too, as Americans and all others who come to our country test negative for Covid-19 before they are released into the country by Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE).


As an American citizen, legal immigrant or if you have a Visa to travel to the United
States for pleasure and you test positive you are barred from entering the United
States until you have self-isolated yourself for 14 days.

The story changes a bit for people who are entering our country illegally through
our southern and I presume northern border.

The House Democrats just blocked a proposal last Tuesday that would have required
illegal immigrants/aliens too, as Americans and all others who come to our country
test negative for Covid-19 before they are released into the country by Immigration
and Customs Enforcement (ICE).


Read More: Dem's Demand Covid Test For You But Not For Their Illegal Friends | http://wbckfm.com/democrats-demand-covid-19-test-for-you-but-not-for-their-illegal-alien-friends/?utm_source=tsmclip&utm_medium=referral

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on March 20, 2021, 06:40:23 PM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/sk031921dAPC20210318114516.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 21, 2021, 04:32:44 PM
Well latest news in the UK is that holidays to the Europe countries may be off this Spring/Summer due to the EU's incompetence in being able to get their citizens vaccinated. The UK can't risk a new wave of virus being brought into the UK. Unfortunately Ukraine too has been slow off the mark with their Vaccination rollout which appears to be down in part to Ukrainians not trusting any Vaccine that much. So cases are rising there and so to the death count until the penny drops I guess.

It's possible that cases across Europe & Ukraine could be down in about a month if they buck their ideas up. In that case travelling abroad could be back on. I'm remaining skeptical on that and it would be a real pain in the arse to miss out on another year. If they can't manage to reopen air travel this year then I'm not sure if they will ever be able to properly again. Just have to wait and see on this one I guess.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 21, 2021, 09:17:42 PM


Vaccines have caused permanent illnesses and death. Billions in compensation has been paid out. Data below. The types of vaccines and amounts administered are in the data. There is an extremely low chance something bad will happen when taking a vaccine. The chance is so low it doesn't scare me and I would take flu vaccines every couple of years.

http://www.hrsa.gov/sites/default/files/hrsa/vaccine-compensation/data/data-statistics-report.pdf


There is no federal approval of any COVID-19 vaccine. A few have been permitted for emergency use because they have not undergone the years of vigorous testing for safety as the ones in the data above. One woman called her life insurance company and they told her if she dies from a COVID vaccine, her family won't see benefits because she would be taking an experimental vaccine that wasn't approved for use on humans.

At the bottom of page 3, the FDA authorized emergency use of the Johnson and Johnson vaccine but also say it's not an FDA approved vaccine. You will see this in documents the FDA writes pertaining to any COVID vaccine.

http://www.fda.gov/media/146304/download
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 22, 2021, 06:34:33 AM
Well latest news in the UK is that holidays to the Europe countries may be off this Spring/Summer due to the EU's incompetence in being able to get their citizens vaccinated.

Bummer.  We were considering a Euro holiday. 

How is Russia doing?  I hear mixed reports. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Chelseaboy on March 22, 2021, 06:52:04 AM
Well latest news in the UK is that holidays to the Europe countries may be off this Spring/Summer due to the EU's incompetence in being able to get their citizens vaccinated. The UK can't risk a new wave of virus being brought into the UK. Unfortunately Ukraine too has been slow off the mark with their Vaccination rollout which appears to be down in part to Ukrainians not trusting any Vaccine that much. So cases are rising there and so to the death count until the penny drops I guess.

It's possible that cases across Europe & Ukraine could be down in about a month if they buck their ideas up. In that case travelling abroad could be back on. I'm remaining skeptical on that and it would be a real pain in the arse to miss out on another year. If they can't manage to reopen air travel this year then I'm not sure if they will ever be able to properly again. Just have to wait and see on this one I guess.


Maybe this time next year or the following year we'll all be lauding the Ukrainians for being so smart..whilst the majority in the UK will have had junk injected into their bodies with the associate after-effects.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 22, 2021, 01:22:29 PM
The demand for vaccinations is declining in Florida while supply of vaccines is increasing.  I receive my second injection over a week ago and waited a mere 5 minutes.   Florida has now lowered the age eligibility to 50-yo (40-yo is some locales such as Orlando). 

My 55-yo Russian wife is now eligible.  I offered to make an appointment for her.  She said, "Not now." 

One of our good friends is a brilliant Armenian with a PhD in biochemistry, working in the medical field.  He advises her to become vaccinated. 

Unless at least two-thirds of the American population is vaccinated, the virus will continue to circulate among us, albeit at a lower endemic level, yet with time raising the  probability of a more lethal, mutated variant. 

I told my wife that if she waits too long, the mRNA vaccines may not be available.  That did not concern her.  In fact, she says maybe the other vaccines (adeno) are less dangerous.    She waits for more information.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 22, 2021, 03:05:24 PM

Maybe this time next year or the following year we'll all be lauding the Ukrainians for being so smart..whilst the majority in the UK will have had junk injected into their bodies with the associate after-effects.

I see your point, one of the ways to not come of too bad with Covid seems to be really fit. I doubt many of those that do regular exercise, eat healthy, don't smoke or do much alcohol come of bad with it probably even less so for the avid gym goers. Talking about those that catch it and not about catching it if course as gyms can be places where it might easily be picked up. Age of course is apparently a big factor so the elderly might be better off taking it anyway. My mother walks to the shops & back most days of the week, guess about half mile round trip in all, has never smoked or drinked alcohol to excess and has had a healthy diet through her life, but being near her mid seventies I'm still don't know if that would be enough, she's had the Oxford vaccine, one dose so far so I think given her age that it was probably best in her case. Me, I get some exercise each week doing DIY stuff of all sorts, my diet is not too bad (not too much junk food) I've never smoked but have binged drank a fair bit of alcohol here & there, every few weeks or months I guess. That is something I am trying to cut down on and have recently decided to just buy & ask for cabs of JD or Bicardi, etc & coke in the future instead of whole bottles. If I buy or get a whole bottle of spirits I kind of get carried away. I always mix with coke which waters down the alcohol content somewhat but it's still too much I feel. If I go overboard the day after doesn't feel as great. So while more economical I think cans will serve my health better in future.

I think if I was young, twenties or so and had a bit of a gym bod I think I would be in a dilemma over weather to take the vaccine. Oxford vaccine is probably best bet but even there although it uses tried & tested technology with this virus there may not be any guarantees. I'm happy enough to have placed my bets there as if I'm susceptible enough to it I don't want it to wreak my health and leave me almost crippled.

Well as you no doubt know CB being a fellow Brit, while hospitalisations & deaths are thankfully going down infection rates have leveled off. My guess is that the new variants are taking over & we need to wait for the booster in the autumn for the Oxford jab to deal with these. I still prefer the Oxford jab even knowing that as once that Pzifer, Moderna (mRNA) etc lot is in you there's no getting it out if if doesn't work out. While only time will tell and any vaccine may be proven in time to have not done well I think the new technology stuff are the risky options until time tells us otherwise.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on March 22, 2021, 06:29:39 PM
Our state now offering Covid vaccine to those age 50 and above.
So I got spouse signed up for Friday morning.
Back in January she wasn't sure if she wanted or not.
But with the wild spread of Covid in Ukraine now, she for sure wanted to get before she tries to go there this summer.

One potential problem is that she is scheduled to take final written exam for PhD the Monday after she gets second Covid vaccine 3 weeks after first, then final oral exam for PhD a week later.
If she has a bad reaction to the second shot (as many do) she will be in deep do-do with respect to  the exams.

And she can't put the exams off any longer.

I hope she gets the Pfizer like I did, as it seems to cause fewer problems than the Moderna.

And I really hope she doesn't get the Johnson, as we would be worried about her going to Ukraine with its lower coverage rate.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 23, 2021, 02:14:17 AM
Our state now offering Covid vaccine to those age 50 and above.
So I got spouse signed up for Friday morning.
Back in January she wasn't sure if she wanted or not.
But with the wild spread of Covid in Ukraine now, she for sure wanted to get before she tries to go there this summer.

One potential problem is that she is scheduled to take final written exam for PhD the Monday after she gets second Covid vaccine 3 weeks after first, then final oral exam for PhD a week later.
If she has a bad reaction to the second shot (as many do) she will be in deep do-do with respect to  the exams.

And she can't put the exams off any longer.

I hope she gets the Pfizer like I did, as it seems to cause fewer problems than the Moderna.

And I really hope she doesn't get the Johnson, as we would be worried about her going to Ukraine with its lower coverage rate.

I've read that the second dose of the Oxford Astra Zenaca vaccine should not likely cause any real reaction, far less than the first since the body has mostly enabled itself to deal with the input. My guess is that Johnson & Johnson would be similar being same/similar type of technology. My reaction to the jab lasted about an evening on the day after the jab where I preferred or needed to rest up in bed with a temperature for up to a couple of hours. I was a bit queasy feeling most of the day but still managed to do some work with some occasional heavy lifting for a fie moments where needed. All in all I would say I had a bit less reaction to the Oxford vaccine than I did the flu vaccine. Wasn't bad really, apparently at most people who suffer bad with it do so for just two - three days, anymore than that and it's see a GP as it's not normal to do so apparently.

Pfizer & Moderna I hear though can be a different story with a lot more downtime for some people. Don't know how that is for a second jab either whether there tends to be less reaction second time or whether there is another reaction period to go through. Might be worth googling around to see what info you can find on it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 23, 2021, 02:36:42 AM
Currently, "Foreign holidays are currently banned in the UK. Under the government's four-stage roadmap for easing pandemic restrictions, they could be allowed to resume from May 17 at the earliest, although it could be later than that."

Well I get my second jab early June so going by this statement from the government/news I would probably be best holding off any trip to Ukraine or anywhere else till after that second jab. That would in theory boost my immunity although with virus strains probably less so. Depending on how the situation all stands then it may or still may not be possible so will just have to wait & see.

Would be a real pain to not finally get out abroad if the situation there is too bad or the variants get too bad as last year being a write off was a real bummer. Possibly if not in the Spring then maybe Summertime or late Summertime.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Chelseaboy on March 23, 2021, 04:11:06 AM
Ł5.000 fine for UK  holidaymakers going abroad from next week.


Boris Johnson set the grounds for yet another lockdown yesterday by saying the rise in Covid-19 cases in Europe could happen here too.


Seems we're heading for an Orwellian society here in the UK.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 23, 2021, 05:11:06 AM

...If she has a bad reaction to the second shot (as many do) she will be in deep do-do with respect to  the exams......I hope she gets the Pfizer like I did, as it seems to cause fewer problems than the Moderna.

I commend your wife for deciding to be vaccinated. 

I received the Pfizer vaccine.  First jab left me fatigued for three days.  Zero side effects from second jab.  Now enjoying more time with my granddaughter. 
 

Quote
And I really hope she doesn't get the Johnson, as we would be worried about her going to Ukraine with its lower coverage rate.

J&J is still very effective.  In fact, when Warp Speed begun a year ago, Fauci and the other government scientists considered 67% efficacy a successful target.   J&J surpassed that target, and more important hospitalizations are virtually 100% eliminated.

The AstraZeneca vaccine is similar to J&J has received some questions in Europe, and today there are new questions under review by the US regulators.   Yet, it too is more effective than nothing, far more. 

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on March 23, 2021, 07:14:05 AM

J&J is still very effective.  In fact, when Warp Speed begun a year ago, Fauci and the other government scientists considered 67% efficacy a successful target.   J&J surpassed that target, and more important hospitalizations are virtually 100% eliminated.

I don't consider going into Ukraine with a 67% effective vaccine to be acceptable at all.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 23, 2021, 09:29:39 AM
I don't consider going into Ukraine with a 67% effective vaccine to be acceptable at all.



Before COVID vaccines came out, Fauci said the most effective vaccine ever created had a 94% efficacy rate. Also, many experts say don't believe the current efficacy rates of COVID vaccines done by press release. We'll know more when the real world trial is over.


The Johnson and Johnson vaccines boosts up our immunity system making it more likely to recognize COVID when it shows up and crush it before it can cause illness. The best news about J & J is that even if it doesn't stop COVID, the immune system is better prepared to defeat it eventually. Nobody who has taken a J & J vaccine and later got COVID, has died. Survival rate is perfect so far although efficacy isn't the best.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 23, 2021, 09:55:24 AM
...The Johnson and Johnson vaccines boosts up our immunity system making it more likely to recognize COVID when it shows up and crush it before it can cause illness. The best news about J & J is that even if it doesn't stop COVID, the immune system is better prepared to defeat it eventually. Nobody who has taken a J & J vaccine and later got COVID, has died. Survival rate is perfect so far although efficacy isn't the best.


Well, not exactly...


How vaccines work, explained:


J&J, AstraZeneca
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B31ro-WQrkU
mRNA Vaccines - Basis of Pfizer/Moderna
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOvvyqJ-vwo


Be careful, regardless of your choices and decisions...while these vaccines have so far proven to be 'effective', it's coming to light that 60 days after getting your (second) injections, your penises shrinks to ridiculous a super, teeny-weeny size.


You've been warned!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 23, 2021, 10:08:07 AM



GQ, I know the J & J vaccine uses a different Coronavirus than the one that cause COVID to get our immunity to recognize the real thing. Because the vaccine doesn't use the real thing, the efficacy rate been reduce.




AstraZeneca been caught lying


Fauci: AstraZeneca needs to 'straighten out' vaccine data (msn.com) (http://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/fauci-astrazeneca-needs-to-straighten-out-vaccine-data/ar-BB1eSnhq?ocid=msedgntp)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 23, 2021, 01:33:31 PM
Meanwhile the EU has now decided it wants the Astra Zenaca vaccine 'again' now that it has relieved itself over fears of blood clots. The EU are now threatening to ban the export of vaccine produced within its bloc to the UK and elsewhere to try and salvage another disasterous cock up due to it failing to approve the vaccine in a timely manner and hashing up the contract side of things. Looking on other forums in the UK I notice that many previous Remoaners are now publicly stating that they now agree and glad the UK left the EU not only because of the antagonism the EU is stirring up over the blockade threat but also because them and their family & friends would have had to wait a lot longer to get the vaccine if we were still part of the EU. I wonder how Moby is feeling about this now ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 23, 2021, 07:11:40 PM



USA gave AstraZeneca billions. Lack of transparency has eroded confidence in their vaccine. America is probably going to give the vaccine we bought from them to poor nations.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-astrazeneca-s-errors-eroded-us-confidence-in-its-covid-shot/ar-BB1eSP9y?ocid=msedgntp (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-astrazeneca-s-errors-eroded-us-confidence-in-its-covid-shot/ar-BB1eSP9y?ocid=msedgntp)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 24, 2021, 12:49:07 AM


USA gave AstraZeneca billions. Lack of transparency has eroded confidence in their vaccine. America is probably going to give the vaccine we bought from them to poor nations.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-astrazeneca-s-errors-eroded-us-confidence-in-its-covid-shot/ar-BB1eSP9y?ocid=msedgntp (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-astrazeneca-s-errors-eroded-us-confidence-in-its-covid-shot/ar-BB1eSP9y?ocid=msedgntp)

What a great idea! If they do not find it safe for their own  people, give it to some poor people who can afford to die.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on March 24, 2021, 07:54:50 AM
From the NY Times no less:

The U.S. media is offering a different picture of Covid-19 from science journals or the international media

Yes, the US national news outlets reported far more negative  than positive news vs. reports by local/regional outlets and international outlets. 


         Share of COVID news coverage that is negative:

                                     March 2020 -  November 2020           January 2021

US National Sources                        90%                                             80%

US Regional/Local                            70%                                             50%

International Sources                       55%                                             40%



The US media campaign made the pandemic appear more threatening than reality. 

Why?  a) Negative news sells to Americans  or b) it was a campaign to villainize Trump before the election. 

The researchers concluded the US national media is responding to consumer demand.  Also, sources such as BBC depend more on government funding and thus report more independently of consumer demand. 

Another example that US primary news sources are unreliable. 

 
http://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/24/briefing/boulder-shooting-george-segal-astrazeneca.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 24, 2021, 08:21:34 AM
..Yes, the US national news outlets reported far more negative  than positive news vs. reports by local/regional outlets and international outlets....
 


Be that as it may, the fact that the humongous pork bill passed and California is about to get a cool > $500 billion for a few long overdue paybacks, LA for example is about to cross the proverbial *orange tier*!!! Meaning were about back to normal folks!!!


The OPA (other people's administration) really know how to stop COVID-19.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on March 24, 2021, 08:29:23 AM


USA gave AstraZeneca billions.

Add that to the billions that have been dispersed to fraudsters from Nigeria to Russia-----
Quote
The Labor Department inspector general has yet to complete a full investigation but, based on previous programs, estimates at least $63 billion of the $630 billion in disbursements has been misspent. The full scope of the loss in taxpayer funds is likely many times higher, experts and officials say, soaring well beyond $100 billion.
A rush to release the funds put enormous strain on state workforce agencies, creating a bonanza for individual scam artists and international cybercrime rings. And the federal government was slow to act despite early red flags, according to interviews with more than two dozen fraud experts, senior law enforcement officials and state and federal officials.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/how-billions-pandemic-aid-was-swindled-con-artists-crime-syndicates-n1257766

Link is a month old but the fraud has only increased in the admin's zeal to distribute finances quickly.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 24, 2021, 08:32:06 AM
What a great idea! If they do not find it safe for their own  people, give it to some poor people who can afford to die.



Actually, the FDA hasn't granted approval for COVID vaccines to be used on humans. FDA and vaccine manufacture's documents says that. The FDA did authorize emergency approval of certain COVID vaccines figuring the benefits outweigh the risks.


AstraZeneca got cocky and supplied the American government with outdated data of their product instead of new data. They assumed the FDA wouldn't make a big stink. It wasn't easy for Fauci to make a public statement pertaining to AstraZeneca's bad behavior knowing it'll erode confidence in vaccines. AstraZeneca's bad behavior may be worse than what Fauci is revealing. I would've considered taking an AstraZeneca vaccine. Due to their deception, they're now on my sh!t list.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on March 24, 2021, 12:12:08 PM

Actually, the FDA hasn't granted approval for COVID vaccines to be used on humans. FDA and vaccine manufacture's documents says that. The FDA did authorize emergency approval of certain COVID vaccines figuring the benefits outweigh the risks.


AstraZeneca got cocky and supplied the American government with outdated data of their product instead of new data. They assumed the FDA wouldn't make a big stink. It wasn't easy for Fauci to make a public statement pertaining to AstraZeneca's bad behavior knowing it'll erode confidence in vaccines. AstraZeneca's bad behavior may be worse than what Fauci is revealing. I would've considered taking an AstraZeneca vaccine. Due to their deception, they're now on my sh!t list.
And again you missed the point.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on March 24, 2021, 12:57:26 PM
There is no real problem with the AstraZeneca vaccine.
As I understand it, they merely fudged the effectiveness rate a couple of percentage points at most.
A typical result of letting marketing people be in charge with no oversight by cautious folks . . . like scientists, engineering, finance or accounting.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 24, 2021, 01:29:33 PM
What a great idea! If they do not find it safe for their own  people, give it to some poor people who can afford to die.

Lol, that's a good one Shadow :D
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 24, 2021, 01:36:29 PM

Actually, the FDA hasn't granted approval for COVID vaccines to be used on humans. FDA and vaccine manufacture's documents says that. The FDA did authorize emergency approval of certain COVID vaccines figuring the benefits outweigh the risks.


AstraZeneca got cocky and supplied the American government with outdated data of their product instead of new data. They assumed the FDA wouldn't make a big stink. It wasn't easy for Fauci to make a public statement pertaining to AstraZeneca's bad behavior knowing it'll erode confidence in vaccines. AstraZeneca's bad behavior may be worse than what Fauci is revealing. I would've considered taking an AstraZeneca vaccine. Due to their deception, they're now on my sh!t list.

Ok, so their up to date data may show there a few percentage points less affective than what was initially thought and as such likely around the same as the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. Problem is they release new data to show it is even a little bit less effective than originally thought a lot will be made of it, a bit like the blood clot polava. So I can see why they didn't want to be too forward with it. I guess we'll see in a day or so how much there is to it all but with many millions already injected and little downside at least in the short term I'm guessing the vaccine is decent enough.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 24, 2021, 04:55:19 PM
Just wait for Pfizer's pill, fellas. If you must....
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 24, 2021, 04:57:20 PM
Apparently they have just found a double mutant variant of the virus in India where there are two mutations from the original virus. There looking into whether it is more infectious or dangerous at the moment. The fact that this has happened shows that unless the world gets a grip on the virus from here on out more of these multi-variant viruses could likely pop up making this pandemic a drawn out affair.

Also apparently India are going to hold back some of the Astra Zenaca vaccine it's has been making for its own people as case numbers & deaths rise out there instead of supplying it to Canada straight away as was the intention. Guess the poor people are quite happy getting their hands on it lol.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on March 24, 2021, 05:34:03 PM
What a great idea! If they do not find it safe for their own  people, give it to some poor people who can afford to die.
Doesn't really matter. As far as we know all the vaccines will kill us. Dead is dead :D
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 24, 2021, 08:36:25 PM
And again you missed the point.


I got your point. I'm just making another.


There is no real problem with the AstraZeneca vaccine.
As I understand it, they merely fudged the effectiveness rate a couple of percentage points at most.
A typical result of letting marketing people be in charge with no oversight by cautious folks . . . like scientists, engineering, finance or accounting.


Ok, so their up to date data may show there a few percentage points less affective than what was initially thought and as such likely around the same as the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. Problem is they release new data to show it is even a little bit less effective than originally thought a lot will be made of it, a bit like the blood clot polava. So I can see why they didn't want to be too forward with it. I guess we'll see in a day or so how much there is to it all but with many millions already injected and little downside at least in the short term I'm guessing the vaccine is decent enough.


In their attempt to get emergency use approval in the States, AstraZeneca deceived. What else have they deceived on? If they were only a 'few' percentage points off effectiveness which is no big deal, Fauci should've kept his mouth shut and had a private conversation with AstraZeneca to revise their numbers. Making a public statement like he did, he had to know it'll erode confidence in vaccines but he felt he had to do it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 25, 2021, 03:39:00 AM

In their attempt to get emergency use approval in the States, AstraZeneca deceived. What else have they deceived on? If they were only a 'few' percentage points off effectiveness which is no big deal, Fauci should've kept his mouth shut and had a private conversation with AstraZeneca to revise their numbers. Making a public statement like he did, he had to know it'll erode confidence in vaccines but he felt he had to do it.

Latest news at the moment is the updated release from Astra Zenaca showing the vaccine's latest results as 76 percent effective down from the previously reported 79 percent:

http://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-56521166

That's not a lot but of course we'll have to see what the FDA and others say about the latest results. Previous results was up to 17 February so that's not that long ago. I think the company are saying the most recent survey hadn't quite been finalized. I think there was quite likely to be a downward figure as the AZ vaccine doesn't do as well against the South African variant though does still do well against the UK and other variants.

Some have pointed to vested interests in the US protecting its drugs industry in this latest situation rather than AZ trying to cover up a big issue/issues. The AZ vaccine is I'm guessing the most numerous of the vaccines taken to date, so much so that they can't produce it enough quick enough it seems. So there is something in that in that it is taking a large market share.

Me, having now taken the vaccine I'm just hoping my penis will be ok ;D
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on March 25, 2021, 06:36:00 AM
Me, having now taken the vaccine I'm just hoping my penis will be ok ;D

Wife says mine is now half the size after the Pfizer.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 25, 2021, 07:50:53 AM

Latest news at the moment is the updated release from Astra Zenaca showing the vaccine's latest results as 76 percent effective down from the previously reported 79 percent:

http://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-56521166 (http://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-56521166)


There's damage control going around. In the article below, they mention AstraZeneca once reported 90% efficacy while omitting results of 55 yo and up people. That also means they are leaving out other data on how the vaccine affects 55 yo and up people. A medical expert at Yale says other vaccine makers are doing the same thing with press releases. Bottom line is vaccine makers are leaving out bad news to make their product look more effective. What can anybody do? They are immune from being sued.

Over time we will begin to understand real world results and efficacy will be lower than advertised. Also, this latest news tells me vaccines are less effective on older people, the people who need the vaccine the most.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-astrazeneca-s-errors-eroded-us-confidence-in-its-covid-shot/ar-BB1eSP9y?ocid=msedgntp



Me, having now taken the vaccine I'm just hoping my penis will be ok ;D


They are considering sending sperm to the moon for doomsday storage. Even if your dream of having Trench Jr ends now, you may be able to repopulate the earth with your seeds if you donate your sperm.

http://www.disclose.tv/t/sperm-seeds-proposed-to-be-send-to-noah-s-ark-style-complex-on-the-moon/26107
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 28, 2021, 02:55:48 AM
There's damage control going around. In the article below, they mention AstraZeneca once reported 90% efficacy while omitting results of 55 yo and up people. That also means they are leaving out other data on how the vaccine affects 55 yo and up people. A medical expert at Yale says other vaccine makers are doing the same thing with press releases. Bottom line is vaccine makers are leaving out bad news to make their product look more effective. What can anybody do? They are immune from being sued.

Over time we will begin to understand real world results and efficacy will be lower than advertised. Also, this latest news tells me vaccines are less effective on older people, the people who need the vaccine the most.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/how-astrazeneca-s-errors-eroded-us-confidence-in-its-covid-shot/ar-BB1eSP9y?ocid=msedgntp


They are considering sending sperm to the moon for doomsday storage. Even if your dream of having Trench Jr ends now, you may be able to repopulate the earth with your seeds if you donate your sperm.

http://www.disclose.tv/t/sperm-seeds-proposed-to-be-send-to-noah-s-ark-style-complex-on-the-moon/26107

Lol, that's a funny idea Billy. Not sure I would count myself as a prime specimen though. I wouldn't go with the idea in general I think there is a time to call it a day if things went that way. While there are the fun & nicer parts of life for at least some of us there can be a lot of misery as suffering also, has been though out history so I'm not sure I would be in favour of starting all that up over again.

Meant to respond earlier but have been busy these past few days. I saw GQ's comment and don't mind it (I didn't complain or ask for it to be taken down) just probably Boe being overprotective off me, I know how much she loves and adores me ;D

Well yesterday's virus infection figures now through for the UK down to 4 thousand 8 hundred & something from around the 6 thousand mark for the last week or so. So that marks a improvement of a situation that had seemed to stagnate. Hopefully it will continue like that over the next few days and we won't no longer be trapped in a situation where the virus is still around enough to be of everyday concern but not real high either.

Currently there is concern of the third wave from Europe making its way over and impacting us, but I am hopeful that we will avoid all of that. I've benefit of being an island nation :)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 28, 2021, 05:49:17 PM



Biden is looking into ways of suppressing some people's freedoms. Without proof of being vaccinated, access to certain freedoms will be restricted. Biden wants everybody injected. Those that resist will be punished. Keep in mind folks, our government hasn't approved any COVID vaccine for use on humans. These are experimental vaccines that got authorized for emergency use.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/biden-vaccine-passports-coordination-b1823692.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 28, 2021, 11:38:19 PM
 Even better news today we're down to 3 thousand 8 hundred and something on yesterday's daily infection rate so down another approx 1000 infections from the previous day :D I'm hoping it's not just a weekend thing with figures not fully counted and hence a spike up on Monday as tended to be the case at the start of this virus. Think they can count it more accurately now so it's looking like for some reason that we have finally broken the stagnation in infection rates in a positive way rather than another upswing.

I think this is probably making Britain look great abroad showing us to be stronger and more capable than the EU. Finally some national prestige back which FSW will no doubt find admirable coming from a nation that can do well for itself :) The fact that one of the big major vaccines perhaps the biggest, Astra Zenaca is a British-Swedish company and developed here at Oxford in the UK is another factor that shows our strength and so soon after Brexit also!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on March 29, 2021, 09:45:22 AM
I wish Europe well nonetheless. Actually everyone regardless of where.


People needs to do what they feel they need to do for their welfare and sanity in these times. Many folks gets caught up with the question to vaxx or not to vaxx.

Me? I'm a numbers guy. Sparing the exercise, the mortality rate here and abroad is more or less similar. Mortality rate at less than 1%, survivability at +97%. They report total infection rate, but that's isolated to testing results, and many of which is done on the same person many times over.


The more important thing to remember, while it is a speculation, it likely isn't too far from the truth - that there's so much more people who got the virus and got tested, but never showed the symptoms, much less gets hospitalized. It's also been speculated many more are actually infected that didn't get tested that likely never knew they even had it.

If you're one of those that got it and never got sick, is it really prudent to believe you have the antibodies in you or whatever it was that kept you from getting sick? If so, then why even take the vaccine? Couple this with the 'odds' science had already accounted for above, what is the point of the vaccine? Think about it. They already tells us it doesn't prevent us from carrying it, and the only benefit of the vaxx is to ensure your symptoms doesn't get worse enough to kill you, or leave you medically incapacitated.

Are you in the vulnerable bracket? aged, with comorbidities, or both? Then by all means, do. For the very vast majority - is this really a difficult decision?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 29, 2021, 10:56:59 AM


The media doesn't want to provide the public with ALL the data so we can make an informed decision. Earlier I put out some data in America pertaining to deaths and side effects due to COVID vaccines. Here's Europe's data provided by the European database of adverse drug reactions. It does not include all countries in Europe and it does not include data from most countries in the world. In America, if you have a life insurance policy and die from taking an unapproved experimental drug, your beneficiaries won't see a dime.

The Breakdown:

Total reactions for the experimental vaccine AZD1222(CHADOX1 NCOV-19) from Oxford/AstraZeneca: 451 deaths and 54,571 injuries to 13/03/2021

Total reactions for the experimental mRNA vaccine Tozinameran (code BNT162b2, Comirnaty) from BioNTech
/ Pfizer: 2,540 deaths and 102,100 injuries to 13/03/2021

Total reactions for the experimental mRNA vaccine mRNA-1273 (CX-024414) from Moderna: 973 deaths and 5,939
injuries to 13/03/2021

http://www.globalresearch.ca/3964-dead-162610-injuries-european-database-adverse-drug-reactions-covid-19-vaccines/5740942 (http://www.globalresearch.ca/3964-dead-162610-injuries-european-database-adverse-drug-reactions-covid-19-vaccines/5740942)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 29, 2021, 11:25:02 AM
My main concern other than passing on the virus unbeknown to other family members was that if I caught it, it  could mess up my health for the rest of my life. The thought of being a physical wreak for potentially decades does not thrill me. Knowing my luck that would be what would happen, not being able to do more than a short walk forever more without it ending in me stopping & gasping for air, etc, etc. Both those reasons were enough for me to take up the opportunity of having the Oxford vaccine as soon as I was able. Death I accept is something we all have happen to us in the end. Well to me it would probably do my head in if I was to go on forever more so it's a situation I have come to accept happens. First though I still have stuff I would like to do and having an able body is kind of helpful in that.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 29, 2021, 02:11:21 PM



Canada recommends people under 55 to not take the AstraZeneca vaccine. Who would've thought experimental medicine can be bad for your health? We won't know how truly bad it is until a few more years. Best to tell the group of people who have almost no chance in dying from COVID to avoid the vaccines. My friend who almost died from COVID would still avoid the vaccines. He worked on studies for new medicines and knows the rigorous testing that goes into approving new medicines to be used on humans and he said it scares him on how fast they produced the vaccines.

http://twitter.com/CBCNews/status/1376625341020696581
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 29, 2021, 09:53:51 PM




A few groups are achieving herd immunity. The Amish and Mennonite communities who live and party like it's 1699 shun masks and vaccines yet now it's less likely for a person to catch COVID living among them than living in a society led by experts in medicine, virology and pandemics.


http://nypost.com/2021/03/28/amish-group-could-reach-covid-herd-immunity-health-official/?utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=SocialFlow (http://nypost.com/2021/03/28/amish-group-could-reach-covid-herd-immunity-health-official/?utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=SocialFlow)




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOfZLb33uCg
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 30, 2021, 04:10:10 AM



A few groups are achieving herd immunity. The Amish and Mennonite communities who live and party like it's 1699 shun masks and vaccines yet now it's less likely for a person to catch COVID living among them than living in a society led by experts in medicine, virology and pandemics.


http://nypost.com/2021/03/28/amish-group-could-reach-covid-herd-immunity-health-official/?utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=SocialFlow (http://nypost.com/2021/03/28/amish-group-could-reach-covid-herd-immunity-health-official/?utm_source=NYPTwitter&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_medium=SocialFlow)




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOfZLb33uCg

Article doesn't say how many have died of the virus or become severely affected long term as a result of being the virus. I think herd immunity happens over time but in doing so it can put a lot of loved ones at risk. That's not something I would do if it can be avoided. The other way other than vaccine or herd immunity is to move to a more self isolating society. This virus has brought us some where there with more online buying yet still people cling to the old ways of doing stuff. If all buying moved online with delivery only & click & collect odds are it would make it a lot harder for the virus to spread and virus numbers would drop to zero within a few months. Yet people seem ever keen to exchange germs with their fellow man as if it's a helpful thing lol.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on March 30, 2021, 07:06:39 AM
   For the very vast majority - is this really a difficult decision? [/size][/font]
I don't like that I will almost be forced to take the vaccine.  To travel, there is talk of a stupid vaccine pass, but without one travelers will be subject to being tested and confined.  I think if it can be shown that somewhere along the way, I've had the virus, and have my own antibodies, I should be free to travel without additional testing detours.    Wife and son are definitely in that boat.   

Overall, I don't like the idea that a rushed vaccine is being pushed so hard. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 30, 2021, 11:23:01 PM



First Canada and now Germany. Germany now bars the vaccine to anybody under 60. If you're old and have a high chance of dying from COVID, take a vaccine. If you're younger and have almost no chance of dying from COVID, do not take any of the experimental vaccines that have come out. It would take years to deem a vaccine safe enough for human use and by then the virus would have mutated so much, today's vaccines would be useless.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-30/germany-to-recommend-astra-vaccine-use-only-for-people-over-60 (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-30/germany-to-recommend-astra-vaccine-use-only-for-people-over-60)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 30, 2021, 11:42:04 PM


First Canada and now Germany. Germany now bars the vaccine to anybody under 60. If you're old and have a high chance of dying from COVID, take a vaccine. If you're younger and have almost no chance of dying from COVID, do not take any of the experimental vaccines that have come out. It would take years to deem a vaccine safe enough for human use and by then the virus would have mutated so much, today's vaccines would be useless.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-03-30/germany-to-recommend-astra-vaccine-use-only-for-people-over-60

I agree, but at what age to take the vaccine? I'm early to mid forties and wouldn't like to chance not taking it as I fear it could wreak my internal organs one by one. On the other hand for all I know I might have already had it and not known about it. Possibly I should have gotten tested for that or antibody test before going for the vaccine. Still I'll just have to hope I made the right call and did really need it. Many people in their forties can apparently be quite susceptible to it and be seriously affected by it. Those in their twenties & thirties & younger in good health far less so in most cases apparently.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 31, 2021, 11:37:16 AM
The EU regulator is continuing to look into the cases of blood clotting but so far is adamant there is no link:

http://www.politico.eu/article/eu-regulator-no-evidence-to-support-restriction-of-oxford-astrazeneca-vaccine/amp/

Most of the cases, nearly all from what it seems to be in women. So I could be ok as a guy then ;D Some have suggested that more women than men taking the vaccine may account for this. If women in mainland Europe are anything like the UK it could just be the fatty women, which if so may be more down to their diet than the vaccine. Anyway will have to wait and see. I've already crossed the vaccine bridge with the Oxford vaccine so whatever happens from here on out happens.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 31, 2021, 01:24:23 PM
I agree, but at what age to take the vaccine? I'm early to mid forties and wouldn't like to chance not taking it as I fear it could wreak my internal organs one by one.



People should have all the fact so they can make an informed decision. Just because the vaccine has the okay for emergency use doesn't mean it doesn't cause harm to the organs or death. There's a risk taking the vaccine just like there's a risk getting COVID. My earlier position on COVID has not changed. It's the virus of the century and early studies say it'll decrease our lifespans about an average of 12 years. It's wreaked havoc on economies. Although children and young adults have almost no chance of dying, humans do not have lifetime immunity so if we caught the virus when we're old, we will eventually die from it. The virus will eventually have many strains. Do we start pumping our bodies with various vaccines every year? Humans have lived alongside with harmless cold coronaviruses although they make us 'feel' sick but we haven't taken serious action against them.




Earlier I supplied documents from Gerrt Vanden Bossche, former senior manager for epidemics for the Gates Foundation. He's an expert in vaccines and he believes it's a colossal blunder on humanity with the current vaccine program. He believes the virus will learn to defeat the vaccines and our immunity system and we will be in real trouble.


Now I provide a statement from a former Vice President and Chief Science Officer for Pfizer, Dr. Michael Yeadon, spoke with urgency to America’s Frontline Doctors (AFLDS) late last week warning (http://www.americasfrontlinedoctors.com/exclusive-former-pfizer-vp-to-aflds-entirely-possible-this-will-be-used-for-massive-scale-depopulation/) that the drive to inject the largest possible portion of the population with experimental COVID-19 vaccines is “madness,” involves “evil,” includes “crimes against humanity” and may have the intention of “massive-scale depopulation.”


“I have absolutely no doubt that we are in the presence of evil (not a determination I’ve ever made before in a 40-year research career) and dangerous products."

http://en-volve.com/2021/03/29/former-pfizer-vp-sounds-alarm-covid-19-vaccine-is-madness-that-will-be-used-for-massive-scale-depopulation/ (http://en-volve.com/2021/03/29/former-pfizer-vp-sounds-alarm-covid-19-vaccine-is-madness-that-will-be-used-for-massive-scale-depopulation/)

http://www.americasfrontlinedoctors.com/exclusive-former-pfizer-vp-to-aflds-entirely-possible-this-will-be-used-for-massive-scale-depopulation/ (http://www.americasfrontlinedoctors.com/exclusive-former-pfizer-vp-to-aflds-entirely-possible-this-will-be-used-for-massive-scale-depopulation/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on March 31, 2021, 08:25:07 PM




I've mentioned young people shouldn't be taking the vaccine. I provided experts saying the same thing. Now I provide another. Harvard professor and COVID advisor to the government challenges anyone to provide the name of an 'expert' who says everyone, including children must be vaccinated. Twitter removed his tweet but this site saved it. Even if your local, state, or federal government says it's okay to give everybody at any age a vaccine, don't do it and warn against it. Only the old and people in the high risk category should consider an experimental vaccine.

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2021/03/30/twitter-censors-official-coronavirus-adviser-and-renowned-epidemiologist-martin-kulldorff/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 01, 2021, 12:00:11 AM
Apparently Pfizer are 'testing' their vaccine on children & teens in the US. No testing is being carried out in children & teens in the UK and currently it is only planned that over 18s will be offered the virus. However there is concern that children & teens my pass the virus asymptomatic and that it may mutate during this. In order to get schools back up and running proper it is being seen by some that the vaccine will be needed to do this.

I think there is a lot the government here don't know and all along they have been testing how the virus reacts with various and many changes to lockdown measures to see how viruses behave. This is research for the long term and our lives have been put on the line in order for them to collect this long term research. This I believe is something most governments have done in tandem with seeing how much they can get away with opening up the economy before virus figures rise again.

Current news today is that the affects of the virus long term from recently collected research does not make for pleasant reading:

http://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/apr/01/almost-third-of-uk-covid-hospital-patients-readmitted-within-four-months

So almost a third of covid patients readmitted suffering from problems related to their covid virus infection. One in eight patients who were hospitalised die within four months of leaving hospital. So if you get the virus bad enough to be hospitalised the long term view may not be a pleasant one.

There are also those of course that get the virus but are not hospitalised, whether they suffer organ damage unbeknown to them may be another issue.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 01, 2021, 07:56:06 AM
Current holiday travel abroad ban in UK until the 30th June:

http://www.google.com/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/news/travel-news-lockdown-easing-flights-holidays-summer-break-passports/amp/

So a little while longer for those of us to wait who were hoping to get over there to meet women - surely should have been made a priority ;D
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on April 01, 2021, 09:04:53 AM
Is social distancing hard in Alaska?

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/31/sarah-palin-coronavirus-positive-wear-masks
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 01, 2021, 12:40:17 PM
Is social distancing hard in Alaska?

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/mar/31/sarah-palin-coronavirus-positive-wear-masks

Apparently here in the UK it seems a lot of the spread and hence lack of much further fall off in infection figures is down to essentially what I see as people not bothering with being concerned over the virus. Apparently only just over half of people know the main initial signs of the virus, those that actually get a test or fully isolate for the full period is even lower. After a year of trying to tell people they are either too dim to take it in or I think more likely can't be bothered with it.

I don't think the penny has really dropped with many that it's too late once you've got it and it can cripple you to the point off destroying any quality of life even half decent health tends to give people.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 01, 2021, 10:08:00 PM


The corrupt UN organization called "WHO" says that the coronavirus came from an animal although their investigation revealed no animal or carcass at the meat markets contained the virus that causes COVID. They continue to lie for China's benefit.


http://www.theepochtimes.com/who-report-blames-animals-instead-of-wuhan-lab-leak-for-ccp-virus-outbreak-questions-unanswered_3755465.html

What do governments do when a new virus shows up on earth and infects hundreds of people and kills dozens of people? Except for humans, they liquidate every living thing that may or may not contain the virus. Here's a small sample of what they did the past couple of decades. Google will find you more examples.

3 million birds killed in West and Midwest America

http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/04/21/401319019/5-million-chickens-to-be-killed-as-bird-flu-outbreak-puzzles-industry (http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/04/21/401319019/5-million-chickens-to-be-killed-as-bird-flu-outbreak-puzzles-industry)

Iowa farm kills 5 million chickens.

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/04/21/401225195/iowa-farm-to-kill-five-million-chickens-in-effort-to-contain-avian-flu (http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/04/21/401225195/iowa-farm-to-kill-five-million-chickens-in-effort-to-contain-avian-flu)

Canada kills 19 million poultry

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2004/04/canada-kill-19-million-poultry-stop-avian-flu (http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2004/04/canada-kill-19-million-poultry-stop-avian-flu)

Gas, knives, and hands kill 1.3 million chickens that led to the death of 4 people in Hong Kong.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/a-million-chickens-killed-in-desperate-attempt-to-stop-spread-of-fatal-disease-1.141492 (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/a-million-chickens-killed-in-desperate-attempt-to-stop-spread-of-fatal-disease-1.141492)

27,000 Turkeys in Buena Vista County terminated

http://www.vice.com/en/article/vvx8e4/5-million-chickens-are-about-to-be-killed-to-prevent-the-spread-of-avian-flu (http://www.vice.com/en/article/vvx8e4/5-million-chickens-are-about-to-be-killed-to-prevent-the-spread-of-avian-flu)

Tens of thousands of swans, pigeons, ducks, and chickens killed in two UK locations.

http://plantbasednews.org/opinion/opinion-piece/thousands-chickens-killed-bird-flu-u-k/ (http://plantbasednews.org/opinion/opinion-piece/thousands-chickens-killed-bird-flu-u-k/)

22.5 million poultry liquidated in South Korea

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/12/24/bird-flu-forces-cull-of-22-million-poultry (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/12/24/bird-flu-forces-cull-of-22-million-poultry)

Dutch veterinarian dies so 23 million chickens slaughtered in Netherlands and Belgium

http://www.scielosp.org/pdf/bwho/2003.v81n6/471-471/en (http://www.scielosp.org/pdf/bwho/2003.v81n6/471-471/en)

2 million chickens in Minnesota and 35 million chickens in 15 states met their maker.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bird-flu-outbreak-2-million-more-minnesota-chickens-to-be-killed-due-to-virus/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/bird-flu-outbreak-2-million-more-minnesota-chickens-to-be-killed-due-to-virus/)

There are ZERO animals and ZERO carcasses on earth that was found to be the source carrier for the virus that causes COVID yet they want us to believe it came from an animal, not a lab.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 02, 2021, 09:30:01 AM
So now we're told the county is on what they refer to as 'Orange Tier'. Increased occupancy in movie houses, restaurants and entertainment venues have all held their openings e.g. Universal, Six Flags, Dodger & Angel Stadiums. That 1.9 Trillion party bash really did a number on COVID-19!!


While this is definitely a welcomed moment in our neck of the woods, it is quite sad to see the many familiar places couldn't recover from the shut/lock downs. Some of the restaurants wifey and I frequent to will not be around anymore.


http://www.theinfatuation.com/los-angeles/features/la-restaurant-closings (http://www.theinfatuation.com/los-angeles/features/la-restaurant-closings)


Our clinic invited us to schedule our vaccination. I'll ignore it. For now....maybe forever.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 02, 2021, 08:20:16 PM
Our clinic invited us to schedule our vaccination. I'll ignore it. For now....maybe forever.

What vaccine is your clinic offering GQ? Are you put off over concerns about the vaccine?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 03, 2021, 01:27:35 AM
It’s mainly Pfizer or moderna. Not sure if you have freedom of choice which cocktail you’ll get. Although our clinic had notified us they’re scheduled to receive shipments of the Pfizer vaccine.

I’m actually surprised LA County had been pretty diligent in their handling of this. They’re really mindful executing their population control program.  :P didn’t realize there’s this many Republicans in LA.

http://www.publichealth.lacounty.gov/media/coronavirus/vaccine/vaccine-dashboard.htm
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 03, 2021, 07:31:58 AM
It’s mainly Pfizer or moderna. Not sure if you have freedom of choice which cocktail you’ll get. Although our clinic had notified us they’re scheduled to receive shipments of the Pfizer vaccine.

I’m actually surprised LA County had been pretty diligent in their handling of this. They’re really mindful executing their population control program.  :P didn’t realize there’s this many Republicans in LA.

http://www.publichealth.lacounty.gov/media/coronavirus/vaccine/vaccine-dashboard.htm

Sounds a bit like here, here you don't get to know till you're at the centre, officially. They just say it depends on the shipment on the day which of course is complete bs. Most know what is going where. The public get to know through family & friends, Google reviews & social media.

In the UK you theoretically have a right to walk in a vaccination centre and told it's not the vaccine you hoped for. I wouldn't think twice about doing such as no one can stop you and you're not compelled to have one once there. I can only assume it is the same in the US. If the people in the centre don't like it tough there isn't anything they can do about it. In the centre I went to they all seemed pretty relaxed anyway so I don't think they really would be bothered.

Some reports out today of seven clotting deaths in the UK after taking the Oxford vaccine:

BBC News - Covid-19: Seven UK blood clot deaths after AstraZeneca vaccine
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56620646

No one is really sure if it is linked or put if the usual number of clotting deaths that can occur each year. Apparently a couple possibly after taking the Pfizer one. The EU medicine agency say it, "is not proven but is possible" - in other words they don't know :-\

The odds aren't high, at least at the moment so I guess hope further issues along the way are not encountered and if it is linked it's just the odd few people and a short term thing. I guess at least if it does do you in its cut & dried and so no period of being crippled for a long time to endure.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on April 03, 2021, 08:04:00 AM


Russia has removed almost all coronavirus restrictions as its vaccination drive ramps up. But the jab campaign has been beset by logistical difficulties and a sceptical public, with the latest figures showing around 6% of Russians have been immunized against the coronavirus.

Officials have also begun to talk about the possibility of a third wave hitting Russia soon. A model developed by analysts at state-controlled Sberbank predicts daily case numbers will rise by more than a third over the next two weeks.

Russia recorded almost 30,000 excess deaths during February, the country’s statistics agency announced Friday — a figure which takes Russia’s total excess fatality count since the start of the coronavirus pandemic above 422,000.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/04/03/russias-excess-death-toll-hits-422k-a73462
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 04, 2021, 10:24:12 AM



Seen a few churches in Western society led by Eastern European pastors being harassed by authorities. Here's a sample. They have experienced the gestapo and Communism and they are sick of it.


Jack Posobiec on Twitter: "BREAKING: A Polish pastor just threw out the police who tried to shut down his church in Calgary http://t.co/QjoNx1W47y" / Twitter (http://twitter.com/jackposobiec/status/1378511944408252423?s=28)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on April 04, 2021, 11:57:22 AM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/lb210330c20210330112317.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 06, 2021, 05:09:49 AM
How effective are vaccines?   A picture speaks a thousand words.

UK and US have rolled out vaccinations aggressively, UK moreso as it implements a policy of vaccinating more people with a single dose rather than fewer with a double dose.   France has been less aggressive. 

Of course, there are other factors, yet the differences in vaccination policies are stark.   

                                    New Daily Cases of COVID/1000,000 Population

                          January 2021                                     April 2021


US                               80                                                   20

UK                               90                                                  <10

France                          30                                                    60


Source:  NY Times (graphic will not link)


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 06, 2021, 05:31:55 AM
Gator-

Aren’t those somewhat misleading? The vaccines aren’t supposed to keep you from getting or spreading the virus. Further, at least here in LA, they are no longer aggressively testing as many of the testing sites were replaced with vaccination venues.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 06, 2021, 05:50:21 AM
The vaccines aren’t supposed to keep you from getting or spreading the virus.

I don't understand this statement.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 06, 2021, 06:08:31 AM
I don't understand this statement.

Which part did you not understand, ML?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 06, 2021, 09:58:03 AM
Source:  NY Times



NY Times always seem to have an agenda. We are leaving Winter so it's natural the virus will die easier before entering our bodies and warmer weather makes our immune system stronger. Daily new cases have significantly dropped but it's still higher than what we had a year ago. What is good news is deaths are lower than what we had a year ago according to Worldometers USA data.


Like GQ said, vaccinated people can still get infected. Vaccines help elevate our immune system to beat the virus that enters our body so we are less likely to feel ill or die.


I'm still waiting for more studies and real world data to come out before taking a vaccine. What really worries me is two experts, ex VP of Pfizer and ex project manager of epidemics for the Bill Gates Foundation says the current mass vaccination program can be a colossal blunder and lead to mass depopulation.


Go to the -25:47 in the video to see it explained in simple terms on how the vaccines 'may' block our own immune system from fighting COVID and allowing variants of the original virus to slip by and assault our bodies.


http://de-de.facebook.com/1458505510932135/videos/127840342620981/ (http://de-de.facebook.com/1458505510932135/videos/127840342620981/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 06, 2021, 10:14:03 AM
Which part did you not understand, ML?

You posted: The vaccines aren’t supposed to keep you from getting . . . the virus.

My question:  Then what are the vaccines supposed to do ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 06, 2021, 10:21:39 AM
Wife relayed to me an interesting item she read on Ukrainian discussion board.

An older MD presented her idea which may, of course, not be new.

1) For perhaps forever earlier . . . bacteria that attacked our bodies actually kept viruses away.

2) The development and usage of drugs to kill bacteria allowed viruses to come in and attack our bodies.

3) These early viruses kept out other more dangerous viruses.

4) Development of vaccines to control the early viruses allowed more dangerous viruses to come in and attack our bodies.

What say ye ??
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 06, 2021, 11:08:11 AM
You posted: The vaccines aren’t supposed to keep you from getting . . . the virus.

My question:  Then what are the vaccines supposed to do ?


The vaccines are only supposed to limit the severity of COVID-19's virulence (functional immunity), which led to severe conditions, even fatal. It doesn't prevent you from catching, and/or transmitting, the virus (sterilizing immunity - inconclusive).

Coronavirus infection despite vaccination? Maybe, but jabs still save lives | Science| In-depth reporting on science and technology | DW | 26.03.2021 (http://www.dw.com/en/coronavirus-infection-despite-vaccination-maybe-but-jabs-still-save-lives/a-57014640)


Myths and Facts about COVID-19 Vaccines | CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/facts.html)

These vaccines are supposed to be >90% effective. In my mind then what's the difference in this from the very vast majority of people who are asymptomatic (those who got infected but never even knew they had it because of the absence of symptoms)?

Moreover, science cannot even tell you how long will this *protection* last. In addition, It may or may not, prove effective from ever-mutating strains...

So I am aching to ask - if the very vast majority (>90%) are asymptomatic, which based on infection rate (tested. The number is even higher if you factor the *untested* folks who may have had the virus) to hospitalization to deaths; what was the point of the vaccines other than to give people a hopeful inferences?

There hasn't been any vaccines that was proven to *stop* any virus known to man, including the common cold.

In LA, the daily cases had dwindled down so much we are almost on the yellow tier (literally back to normal). But what isn't openly announced is we had also dramatically decreased testing for the virus.

http://laist.com/2021/03/25/ask_laist_testing_sites_vaccinations_covid.php (http://laist.com/2021/03/25/ask_laist_testing_sites_vaccinations_covid.php)


Take Ontario, Canada for example, from what I understand they haven't slowed down on their testing (don't know about hospitalization rate), they are again on a lockdown mode.

This whole thing has more holes than swiss cheese...I am very apprehensive when science is politically managed/driven.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on April 06, 2021, 03:39:48 PM
Surgeons in New York City have performed the first windpipe transplant in the US, giving a woman who suffered severe asthma a new trachea, the tube that transports air from the mouth to the lungs.

Doctors say such operations could help Covid-19 patients left with serious windpipe damage from breathing machines.

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2021/apr/06/first-us-trachea-transplant-windpipe-damage
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 06, 2021, 04:56:49 PM

The vaccines are only supposed to limit the severity of COVID-19's virulence (functional immunity), which led to severe conditions, even fatal. It doesn't prevent you from catching, and/or transmitting, the virus (sterilizing immunity - inconclusive).

Your Science article concludes it is still possible to become infected with COVID even after immunization.  Correct!  However, what are the odds of infection?     

The 46,307 test subjects in the clinical trials of the Pfizer vaccine are still being monitored and tested, six months after immunization.  The efficacy is 91.3%   (of 927 confirmed symptomatic cases,  850 cases were in the placebo group and 77 cases were in the vaccinated group).  Assuming half the subjects were vaccinated,  the odds of becoming infected are 23,153.5::77 or 300 to 1. 

Most important as you posted, "the vaccine was 100% effective against severe disease as defined by the U.S. CDC. 

http://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-confirm-high-efficacy-and-no-serious

The point of  my morning post was to show that the two nations UK and US with large vaccination programs have seen a drastic decline in infections, which is what we want if we are to return to normal.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 06, 2021, 08:46:55 PM
I think the rough figure is that most vaccines in general reduced the chance of spreading the virus by two thirds. So if most of a country's population had the vaccine just think of what that would do to the R number. It could potentially even without lockdown but just general social distancing & mask measures reduce the transmission rate below 1. It seems that it only takes a few months at that rate for the virus to hit low number of infections maybe even zero infections at which point the virus could be eradicated.

Once the virus has nowhere to go the final virus cells present on stuff will degrade over a few days and go.

The only thing that may upset that are mutant varients and countries slow to vaccinate like the EU.

That said there seems to be a shift in the regulators position in both the EU and the UK now in that after saying that there is no connection between the Oxford Vaccine & blood clots they now seem to be starting to go back on what they say and starting to say there is/could be. Even still it still looks a better bet for most people than the risk of contracting the virus and dying from that or being left in a right state with organ failure or trouble as a result of getting the virus.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 06, 2021, 10:30:04 PM

4) Development of vaccines to control the early viruses allowed more dangerous viruses to come in and attack our bodies.

What say ye ??

#4 would mean mass depopulation could happen, a theory by a couple of experts I mentioned earlier. All this is happening so fast and this could be a colossal blunder.

Here's an article that says the fasted vaccine ever created took 4 years until COVID vaccines came along.

http://www.fool.com/investing/2021/04/06/pfizers-ceo-makes-a-claim-that-might-shock-anyone/?source=eptyholnk0000202&utm_source=yahoo-host&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=article

There's a lot of medicines that went through years of rigorous trials only to be recalled after released to the public for consumption. Zantac used to be advertised all over tv and now there's a class action suit against them.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on April 06, 2021, 11:47:08 PM
Wife relayed to me an interesting item she read on Ukrainian discussion board.

An older MD presented her idea which may, of course, not be new.

1) For perhaps forever earlier . . . bacteria that attacked our bodies actually kept viruses away.

2) The development and usage of drugs to kill bacteria allowed viruses to come in and attack our bodies.

3) These early viruses kept out other more dangerous viruses.

4) Development of vaccines to control the early viruses allowed more dangerous viruses to come in and attack our bodies.

What say ye ??
Reason why I have always had the policy of taking as little medicine as possible. It help the drugs work when needed, as our body gets used to about anything that is brought in to the system regularly.
The increase in  allergies and asthma may be due to the extreme sterile conditions we prefer to keep our babies in, keeping them from developing being used to natural allergents.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 07, 2021, 01:42:47 AM
Moderna vaccine already here now and about to start being used in Wales, Scotland soon after and then rest of England:

BBC News - Covid: Moderna vaccine UK rollout begins in Wales
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56657038

So glad to have avoided that one as another mRNA vaccine. The Oxford vaccine may not be 100 percent safe but even if there is a link to rare blood clots the number is pretty low so will hope for the best, no problems as yet as far as I know, more common in younger women apparently though I guess they might have just been fatties lol.

Cases of infections starting to come down again now to around two thousand and something a day so on that front looking positive so far here.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 07, 2021, 02:01:58 AM
A recent report that apparently some people develop mental illness as a result of having Covid:

"COVID-19 linked to increased risk of psychiatric and neurological conditions

Findings from a new study suggest contracting coronavirus is "robustly associated" with an increased risk of developing mental health and neurological conditions in the six months after a diagnosis.

University of Oxford researchers looked at the TriNetX electronic 2020 health records of more than 230,000 COVID-19 patients who were mostly from the US.
Published in The Lancet Psychiatry journal, the study estimated that one in three COVID-19 survivors (34%) were diagnosed with a neurological or psychiatric condition within six months of being infected.
And 13% were given their first neurological or psychiatric diagnosis, researchers found.
The findings also suggested that the incidence of such conditions rose with the severity of a COVID case.

It found that a neurological or psychiatric diagnosis occurring in 39% of those who were admitted to hospital, 46% of those in intensive care, and 62% in those who had encephalopathy - described as "delirium and other altered mental states" - when they had COVID."

Sky News.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Shadow on April 07, 2021, 05:18:36 AM
A recent report that apparently some people develop mental illness as a result of having Covid:

"COVID-19 linked to increased risk of psychiatric and neurological conditions

Findings from a new study suggest contracting coronavirus is "robustly associated" with an increased risk of developing mental health and neurological conditions in the six months after a diagnosis.

University of Oxford researchers looked at the TriNetX electronic 2020 health records of more than 230,000 COVID-19 patients who were mostly from the US.
Published in The Lancet Psychiatry journal, the study estimated that one in three COVID-19 survivors (34%) were diagnosed with a neurological or psychiatric condition within six months of being infected.
And 13% were given their first neurological or psychiatric diagnosis, researchers found.
The findings also suggested that the incidence of such conditions rose with the severity of a COVID case.

It found that a neurological or psychiatric diagnosis occurring in 39% of those who were admitted to hospital, 46% of those in intensive care, and 62% in those who had encephalopathy - described as "delirium and other altered mental states" - when they had COVID."

Sky News.
Considering the behaviour of those most likely to get the virus currently (anti-mask, protected by God) I think the correlation is not with medical reason.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 07, 2021, 07:48:36 AM

The only thing that may upset that are mutant varients and countries slow to vaccinate like the EU.


We should be concerned about mutant variants.  It's all about numbers. 

A greater number of infections results in a greater number of mutations, one of which could be more virulent than the existing strains.  Thus, the more people who become immunized, the lower the risk of the emergence of a more dangerous mutant. 

BTW, part of the the Pfizer clinical trials were conducted in South Africa, and not one immunized subject became infected with the South African  "B.1.351 lineage" there. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 07, 2021, 08:47:35 AM



European Medicines Agencies find possible connection with blod clots that can lead to death from the AstraZeneca vaccine but benefits outweigh the risks. AstraZeneca takes their name off the vaccine and calls it something else. Bad publicity can make a company do that. Now that we have choices, they won't ask if you prefer AstraZeneca. They will ask if you prefer Vaxzevria.


http://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/astrazenecas-covid-19-vaccine-ema-finds-possible-link-very-rare-cases-unusual-blood-clots-low-blood (http://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/astrazenecas-covid-19-vaccine-ema-finds-possible-link-very-rare-cases-unusual-blood-clots-low-blood)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 07, 2021, 11:01:51 AM


European Medicines Agencies find possible connection with blod clots that can lead to death from the AstraZeneca vaccine but benefits outweigh the risks. AstraZeneca takes their name off the vaccine and calls it something else. Bad publicity can make a company do that. Now that we have choices, they won't ask if you prefer AstraZeneca. They will ask if you prefer Vaxzevria.


http://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/astrazenecas-covid-19-vaccine-ema-finds-possible-link-very-rare-cases-unusual-blood-clots-low-blood (http://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/astrazenecas-covid-19-vaccine-ema-finds-possible-link-very-rare-cases-unusual-blood-clots-low-blood)


Yeah it's not the kind of move to instill confidence and kind of like they want to distance themselves from it in case it goes bad. Main concern is probably if there are any long term issues and we'll only know that in the long term. Currently I think the thinking is if problems don't materialise in around a couple of weeks things will be ok. This Dr tends to suggest that though I guess nothing is assured:

http://www.google.com/amp/s/www.walesonline.co.uk/news/uk-news/astrazeneca-blood-clot-symptoms-warning-20333488.amp
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 07, 2021, 12:42:55 PM


79 cases of blood clotting and 19 deaths after taking the vaccine in the UK. You feeling okay Trench?

http://www.theepochtimes.com/uk-death-toll-from-blood-clots-after-astrazeneca-jab-rises-to-19_3766101.html (http://www.theepochtimes.com/uk-death-toll-from-blood-clots-after-astrazeneca-jab-rises-to-19_3766101.html)


UK government data dated Mar, 31, 2012 pertaining to the new wave. This is big news you won't see in the media. They have excuses for the statements written below, but who knows, these events could be the beginning of the mass depopulation scenario that experts predicted may happen. So far it seems when a vaccine fails to do it's job, a person has a greater chance of severe illness and death compared to people who didn't take a vaccine.

32. The resurgence in both hospitalisations and deaths is dominated by those that have received two doses of the vaccine, comprising around 60% and 70% of the wave respectively. This can be attributed to the high levels of uptake in the most at-risk age groups, such that immunisation failures account for more serious illness than unvaccinated individuals. This is discussed further in paragraphs 55 and 56.

56. This shows that most deaths and admissions in a post-Roadmap resurgence are in people who have received two vaccine doses, even without vaccine protection waning or a variant emerging that escapes vaccines. This is because vaccine uptake has been so high in the oldest age groups (modelled here at 95% in the over 50-year olds). There are therefore 5% of over 50-year olds who have not been vaccinated, and 95% x 10% = 9.5% of over 50-year olds who are vaccinated but, nevertheless, not protected against death. This is not the result of vaccines being ineffective, merely uptake being so high.

http://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/975909/S1182_SPI-M-O_Summary_of_modelling_of_easing_roadmap_step_2_restrictions.pdf (http://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/975909/S1182_SPI-M-O_Summary_of_modelling_of_easing_roadmap_step_2_restrictions.pdf)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 07, 2021, 12:45:17 PM
Now that we have choices, they won't ask if you prefer AstraZeneca. They will ask if you prefer Vaxzevria.

I think I will just stick with females.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 07, 2021, 02:57:36 PM

79 cases of blood clotting and 19 deaths after taking the vaccine in the UK. You feeling okay Trench?

So far, Lol :-\

I guess not being female may help me, apparently.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 07, 2021, 03:20:57 PM
So far, Lol :-\

I guess not being female may help me, apparently.


It's been killing females 2 to 1 over males. It'll be harder to find a wife when this is over.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 07, 2021, 04:25:36 PM


Remember Biden's Secretary of Transportation deceiving us on how he gets to work? Here's another Biden official that mistakenly thought the cameras were on the podium. It's apparent they run around without a mask and only put it on for the cameras.

http://gab.com/PepeLivesMatter17/posts/106019679353509492
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 08, 2021, 10:44:45 AM
Great news everybody! The details are being talked about by Biden and Democratic governors. From the party that brought us the slogan "My Body, My Choice", they want to create papers that will allow us all kinds of benefits. It'll be called Vaccination passport. With these papers we will be able to cross state lines, fly on airplanes, go to concerts and movie theaters and more! All we have to do is show the papers to the authorities and we will be able to enjoy more freedoms over those who do not comply with the steps necessary to obtain those papers.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 08, 2021, 11:23:21 AM

It's been killing females 2 to 1 over males. It'll be harder to find a wife when this is over.

On paper, but if it's doing in fat chicks it will make no difference in reality ;D
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 08, 2021, 12:12:06 PM
Great news everybody! The details are being talked about by Biden and Democratic governors. From the party that brought us the slogan "My Body, My Choice", they want to create papers that will allow us all kinds of benefits. It'll be called Vaccination passport. With these papers we will be able to cross state lines, fly on airplanes, go to concerts and movie theaters and more! All we have to do is show the papers to the authorities and we will be able to enjoy more freedoms over those who do not comply with the steps necessary to obtain those papers.

May be the least of our worries, apparently a new super variant of the virus has reared its head in Brazil comprising of 18 mutations which is huge compared to the double variant found in India recently. Looks like Brazil letting the virus run loose is allowing for a lot of mutations in the virus, some learning to be done here I think.

http://www.aa.com.tr/en/americas/brazil-finds-new-virus-variant-combining-18-mutations/2201998
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on April 08, 2021, 06:42:37 PM
On paper, but if it's doing in fat chicks it will make no difference in reality ;D

Trench, please don't bring the wrath of Femem down on the board. :cluebat:

Femen (Ukrainian: Фемен), stylized as FEMEN, is a radical feminist activist group whose goal is to protect women's rights. The organization became internationally known for organizing controversial topless protests against sex tourism, religious institutions, sexism, homophobia, and other social, national, and international topics.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 08, 2021, 07:30:09 PM
Trench, please don't bring the wrath of Femem down on the board. :cluebat:

Femen (Ukrainian: Фемен), stylized as FEMEN, is a radical feminist activist group whose goal is to protect women's rights. The organization became internationally known for organizing controversial topless protests against sex tourism, religious institutions, sexism, homophobia, and other social, national, and international topics.


They would be a welcomed addition to the board :P
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on April 08, 2021, 08:36:03 PM

They would be a welcomed addition to the board :P


They are also known for being antifa rioters.
http://www.dogpile.com/serp?q=femem&sc=9Jg8ZJHzFi5X20
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 09, 2021, 09:34:10 AM
Trench, please don't bring the wrath of Femem down on the board. :cluebat:


Lol, Putin will soon sort them out if he Invades :D
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 09, 2021, 09:35:34 AM
Billy, are you still sure on going for the Johnson & Johnson jab?

"COVID-19: EU regulator reviewing possible links between Johnson &amp; Johnson jab and blood clots | World News | Sky News" http://news.sky.com/story/amp/eu-regulator-reviewing-possible-links-between-johnson-johnson-jab-and-blood-clots-12270444
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 09, 2021, 03:22:48 PM
Higher ratio of people develop blood clot from flying than the ratio for people taking Astra Zeneca vaccine.

The review pooled results of nine trials comparing people who wore below-knee compression stockings with those who didn’t on flights lasting at least four hours. One in 1,000 healthy people wearing compression stockings developed a symptomless clot compared with 10 per 1,000 who didn’t wear them. In people with additional risk factors, stockings reduced risk from 30 cases per 1,000 down to 3 per 1,000.

http://evidence.nihr.ac.uk/alert/long-haul-flyers-could-reduce-risk-of-leg-blood-clots-with-compression-stockings/#:~:text=In%20the%20nine%20pooled%20trials,who%20didn't%20wear%20stockings.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 10, 2021, 03:06:31 AM
Even still this isn't looking good:

"New blood condition linked to AstraZeneca jab as J&J vaccine is investigated over blood clots | Evening Standard" http://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/capillary-leak-syndrome-astrazeneca-jab-johnson-and-johnson-jab-blood-clots-b928950.html?amp

These case numbers are if course tiny at the moment. The hope is that several weeks after taking the vaccine (if there is any link to these conditions) then the patient will be past the risk stage and will be safe and that the numbers potentially at risk will remain tiny. The fear of course is that of any longer term problems here, odds of that are probably that they are hopefully are none as the antibodies will have been produced and everything will be stable. We will just have to see how things go on this I guess.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 11, 2021, 01:53:47 AM
A recent study has found that the South African varient can get through the Pfizer vaccine:

"Coronavirus latest news: South Africa variant can 'break through' Pfizer's vaccine" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-covid-vaccine-astrazeneca-lockdown-travel-rules/amp/

The South African variant can get through the Astra Zenaca vaccine with it apparently giving as little as 10 percent or so protection though it tends to stop more serious cases of it. Apparently the Astra Zenaca Vaccine is effective against the UK varient of the virus.

Meanwhile case numbers in UK have levelled off again around 3,000 infected a day in the UK. We're soon to come out of lockdown but I'm not so sure that the infection number won't start climbing again. Much of the population now vaccinated mainly down towards the 40s age group but the varients from South Africa and elsewhere could soon pose a problem I think.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 11, 2021, 08:17:42 AM
Gator wrote: BTW, part of the the Pfizer clinical trials were conducted in South Africa, and not one immunized subject became infected with the South African  "B.1.351 lineage" there.

- - - - - - - -

A recent study has found that the South African variant can get through the Pfizer vaccine:

"Coronavirus latest news: South Africa variant can 'break through' Pfizer's vaccine" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/coronavirus-news-covid-vaccine-astrazeneca-lockdown-travel-rules/amp/

= = = = = = = =

So which of the above is the truth ???

Or is one just an update at a later time ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 11, 2021, 10:00:03 AM
Higher ratio of people develop blood clot from flying than the ratio for people taking Astra Zeneca vaccine.

The review pooled results of nine trials comparing people who wore below-knee compression stockings with those who didn’t on flights lasting at least four hours. One in 1,000 healthy people wearing compression stockings developed a symptomless clot compared with 10 per 1,000 who didn’t wear them. In people with additional risk factors, stockings reduced risk from 30 cases per 1,000 down to 3 per 1,000.

http://evidence.nihr.ac.uk/alert/long-haul-flyers-could-reduce-risk-of-leg-blood-clots-with-compression-stockings/#:~:text=In%20the%20nine%20pooled%20trials,who%20didn't%20wear%20stockings (http://evidence.nihr.ac.uk/alert/long-haul-flyers-could-reduce-risk-of-leg-blood-clots-with-compression-stockings/#:~:text=In%20the%20nine%20pooled%20trials,who%20didn't%20wear%20stockings).


Over 220,000 people fly through Heathrow airport everyday which is more people getting vaccinated in the UK everyday yet they haven't reported 19 passengers dying due to blot clots in the last few months. I'm pretty sure the severity of blot clots one gets from the vaccines is worse than the one on airplanes.




Billy, are you still sure on going for the Johnson & Johnson jab?

"COVID-19: EU regulator reviewing possible links between Johnson &amp; Johnson jab and blood clots | World News | Sky News" http://news.sky.com/story/amp/eu-regulator-reviewing-possible-links-between-johnson-johnson-jab-and-blood-clots-12270444 (http://news.sky.com/story/amp/eu-regulator-reviewing-possible-links-between-johnson-johnson-jab-and-blood-clots-12270444)


I'm still waiting and seeing before making a decision. J & J is similar to AstraZeneca. Also is its not looking good for J & J's rollout since some vaccination stations stopped J & J from being administered until further investigation.


http://www.denverpost.com/2021/04/07/vaccine-reaction-dicks-sporting-goods-park/ (http://www.denverpost.com/2021/04/07/vaccine-reaction-dicks-sporting-goods-park/)

http://www.yahoo.com/news/north-carolina-sites-halt-j-000205052.html (http://www.yahoo.com/news/north-carolina-sites-halt-j-000205052.html)


Some experts say we need to vaccinate as quickly as possible so the virus doesn't mutate. Other experts say we are making a big mistake. Mutations tend to be weaker than the original virus and our bodies that encountered the original would more easily handle mutations. They say we've never took actions against pathogens in a pandemic like we've taken now. They fear the rushed vaccines would make our immune systems dysfunctional and later mutations will bypass not on the vaccine, but our dysfunctional immune systems which could lead to mass depopulation. Two of these experts are the ex VP and Chief science officer of Pfizer and ex Senior project manager of epidemics for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 11, 2021, 05:06:06 PM

So which of the above is the truth ???

Both, see below.

Quote
Or is one just an update at a later time ?

Two different studies; news releases are 9 days apart.  . 


My comment came from a 1 April Pfizer press release, updating the continuing study of participants in its clinical trials used by the FDA to grant emergency approval on December 11, 2020. 

Quote
In South Africa, where the B.1.351 lineage [ed. South African variant] is prevalent and 800 participants were enrolled, nine cases of COVID-19 were observed, all in the placebo group, indicating vaccine efficacy of 100% (95% CI, [53.5, 100.0]). In an exploratory analysis, the nine strains were sequenced and six of the nine were confirmed to be of the B.1.351 lineage. These data support previous results from immunogenicity studies demonstrating that BNT162b2 induced a robust neutralizing antibody response to the B1.351 variant, and although lower than to the wild-type strain, it does not appear to affect the high observed efficacy against this variant.

http://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-confirm-high-efficacy-and-no-serious

Trenchcoat's comment came from a study released 10 April.    The Telegraph called it a "real-world data" study in Israel.  I have no idea what "real-world data" means, especially considering it  compared only 400 COVID cases.  About "one percent" of the studied cases were sequenced as the South African variant.  The Telegraph's headline ignores the most important finding: 

Quote
Results from the study showed that there were no reported cases of B.1.351 in fully vaccinated individuals who had received their second dose more then 14-days prior.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 12, 2021, 09:13:46 AM



Slovakia questions the quality of the Russian vaccine sent to them. Instead of proving the vaccine is up to standards, Russia tells them to send the 200,000 doses back.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-demanded-200-000-sputnik-120744748.html


Saturday and today my wife will be giving hundreds of injections of Pfizer vaccine to people at the hospital where she's having her clinicals.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 12, 2021, 10:01:38 AM


Slovakia questions the quality of the Russian vaccine sent to them. Instead of proving the vaccine is up to standards, Russia tells them to send the 200,000 doses back.

http://www.yahoo.com/news/russia-demanded-200-000-sputnik-120744748.html


Saturday and today my wife will be giving hundreds of injections of Pfizer vaccine to people at the hospital where she's having her clinicals.

What's your wife's view on the vaccines Billy?

I guess one method could be to wait for enough of the population to be vaccinated then if that stops the virus from spreading and it dies off then no need to be vaccinated. A bit of a risky strategy until enough get vaccination but I reckon it could work. Best to keep a low profile and wear a mask for as long as needed may well help. If a bad mutant strain takes over then we'll probably need to be vaccinated all over again anyway. I got the AZ Vaccine as wanted to go to the FSU and because my Mother is quite elderly even though fairly fit condition but didn't want to risk passing it on as although she has had one AZ jab she could still face a fair old risk.

Anyway, a recent news story on the J&J vaccine among others:

"Johnson and Johnson vaccine probe deepens Europe’s COVID woes – EURACTIV.com" http://www.euractiv.com/section/health-consumers/news/johnson-and-johnson-vaccine-probe-deepens-europes-covid-woes/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 12, 2021, 10:23:56 AM
What's your wife's view on the vaccines Billy?



Months ago she was like me. Yesterday she said she'd consider taking it. We live in a very liberal area and the medical field she's in promotes vaccines so she doesn't hear all the bad things. Actually, I've told you more about the problems with vaccines in the world than I've told her. I reminded her not all studies have been concluded with these experimental vaccines and it's best to wait till other people test them out, especially since she has a near zero percent chance of dying from COVID.


Third state halts J & J vaccine rollout


http://www.cbsnews.com/news/johnson-johnson-vaccine-georgia-shut-down-side-effects/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/johnson-johnson-vaccine-georgia-shut-down-side-effects/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 12, 2021, 11:24:10 AM

We live in a very liberal area and the medical field she's in promotes vaccines so she doesn't hear all the bad things. Actually, I've told you more about the problems with vaccines in the world than I've told her.



When you compile a list of problems with vaccines, do you compare it with a list of potential problems from COVID and its variants? 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 12, 2021, 01:18:16 PM


When you compile a list of problems with vaccines, do you compare it with a list of potential problems from COVID and its variants?

Yes. In the past I've said this virus is the virus of the century and my opinion has not changed. We've learned it's behavior and who's most vulnerable so I became anti experimental vaccine for younger people who almost have zero chance in dying from COVID. Although the virus of the century, it's not a doomsday virus like MERS is that kills 1 out of every 3 people it infects.

I used to believe a mutation could create a monster that we couldn't control. I've changed my mind after doing research. Any mutations will be slight and if our immune system can beat COVID, it can beat a slight mutation of the original virus. On the other hand vaccines are the ones that won't be able to keep up with mutations. Read the article below. The ex VP and Chief Science officer of Pfizer talks a lot about this and much more. He knows the vaccine business and he says most of the information he's reading from our government and media are lies so he's thinking our government is up to no good. He not only believes the experimental vaccines can cause mass depopulation but the vaccine passports is a way to control people. Without being vaccinated, you won't enjoy freedoms. You may not even be able to do any banking which will make it difficult for anybody to be financially successful. In the future to keep your passport up to date, you must take any new vaccine they require. Sinister people can create an mRNA vaccine that will give you organ failure in less than a year for example. He wouldn't be so suspicious if it weren't coming from lying government officials. In the past, our best and brightest have successfully fought pandemics without the mass vaccination program and calls for vaccine passports we are seeing here. Maybe we should take a slower approach in fighting this like we've taken against the virus that causes AIDS.

http://www.lifesitenews.com/mobile/news/exclusive-former-pfizer-vp-your-government-is-lying-to-you-in-a-way-that-could-lead-to-your-death?__twitter_impression=true (http://www.lifesitenews.com/mobile/news/exclusive-former-pfizer-vp-your-government-is-lying-to-you-in-a-way-that-could-lead-to-your-death?__twitter_impression=true)


Earlier I mention a UK government paper saying people who were vaccinated but it didn't work on them were dying at greater rates than those who are not vaccinated after getting COVID. This is the fear brought up by some experts believing the vaccine can make our immune systems dysfunctional. I believe someone put up an Israeli study but here's an article explaining it again. If this continues and proves to be true, vaccines ARE messing up people's natural immune systems.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/study-covid-variant-pfizer-vaccinated-unvaccinated (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/study-covid-variant-pfizer-vaccinated-unvaccinated)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 13, 2021, 04:58:16 AM
While we are one of the few countries that has driven down covid cases we are apparently far from out of the woods:

"COVID-19: Lockdown is main reason for drop in coronavirus cases and deaths - not vaccinations, says Boris Johnson | Politics News | Sky News" http://news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-lockdown-is-main-reason-for-drop-in-coronavirus-cases-and-deaths-not-vaccinations-says-boris-johnson-12274266

So why they don't carry the lockdown on for a bit longer to better control the spread of the virus I don't know. That or moving to a more isolated economy of click & collect and delivery only, working from home etc, makes sense to me.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 13, 2021, 06:01:51 AM
Latest report on the J&J vaccine. Seems to be running into much the same issues as the AZ vaccine:

"US health agencies call for pause of Johnson & Johnson vaccine rollout" http://amp.ft.com/content/d1070ff2-a473-4f6a-a484-681fb8de4251
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 13, 2021, 08:30:44 AM
"COVID-19: Lockdown is main reason for drop in coronavirus cases and deaths - not vaccinations, says Boris Johnson | Politics News | Sky News" http://news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-lockdown-is-main-reason-for-drop-in-coronavirus-cases-and-deaths-not-vaccinations-says-boris-johnson-12274266 (http://news.sky.com/story/amp/covid-19-lockdown-is-main-reason-for-drop-in-coronavirus-cases-and-deaths-not-vaccinations-says-boris-johnson-12274266)



That's a huge statement coming from a major world leader. UK has vaccinated a higher percentage of their population than any other major nation and for Boris to say the vaccinations have little to do with the drop in cases is a blow for the vaccine companies.




So why they don't carry the lockdown on for a bit longer to better control the spread of the virus I don't know. That or moving to a more isolated economy of click & collect and delivery only, working from home etc, makes sense to me.


There's no way to eradicate this virus from earth so does a nation damage it's economy forever? Maybe we should bite the bullet and let the virus roam free killing a small percentage of the population and for the survivors, hoping their immune system recognizes the virus so it and its variants are more easily beat next time it's encountered. Our bodies may turn this coronavirus into another harmless coronavirus that causes the common cold. It may take generations to do that. Lockdowns just delays the inevitable. Mass vaccinations with experimental vaccines, which has never been tried before, may not work and may even harm our immune systems leading to a mass die off. The record for creating a safe and effective vaccine that's FDA approved was 4 years. Come back and tell us know how you feel in 3 years Trench. We will be monitoring your physical and mental health!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 13, 2021, 10:11:23 AM



Latest report on the J&J vaccine. Seems to be running into much the same issues as the AZ vaccine:

"US health agencies call for pause of Johnson & Johnson vaccine rollout" http://amp.ft.com/content/d1070ff2-a473-4f6a-a484-681fb8de4251 (http://amp.ft.com/content/d1070ff2-a473-4f6a-a484-681fb8de4251)

I'm not able to read your article but found another that says the issue is blood clotting. They'll halt the vaccine and later announce the health problems and deaths are worth it.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/us-calls-pause-johnson-johnson-vaccinations-blood-clot/story?id=77040882

For those who are loving vaccines, they are already developing your next shot. Big Pharma will also receive protection from being sued and be allowed to bypass safety tests so it'll get to the market sooner. This will be like a carrousel with no end in site.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 14, 2021, 05:18:14 PM


Denmark permanently bans Astrazeneca. More nations announcing the vaccine can be given to only people 60 yo and up. Seems like the beginning of the end of that vaccine. J & J will probably follow suit.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1423008/Denmark-AstraZeneca-vaccine-ban-Oxford-jab-latest-Covid-coronavirus-updates (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1423008/Denmark-AstraZeneca-vaccine-ban-Oxford-jab-latest-Covid-coronavirus-updates)



http://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/pharma/australia-philippines-african-union-ban-astrazeneca-covid-19-shot/story/436143.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 14, 2021, 06:59:23 PM
7 million doses of the Johnson and Johnson vaccine have been given in USA.

6 blood clot cases discovered.

This is ridiculous the furor over it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 14, 2021, 07:37:34 PM
7 million doses of the Johnson and Johnson vaccine have been given in USA.

6 blood clot cases discovered.

This is ridiculous the furor over it.


When nations start banning a vaccine like AstraZeneca, they need to provide a reason. They give us the minimum amount of information so they don't ruin public confidence in vaccines. Whatever they are telling us about AstraZeneca, you can count on it being worse. Like AstraZeneca, J & J is a viral vector vaccine. So far it's side effects is following AstraZeneca's footsteps. Precaution needs to be taken. Our most vulnerable, the elderly have already been vaccinated. Why force an experimental vaccine on people who have almost no chance of dying from Covid?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 14, 2021, 10:00:17 PM

When nations start banning a vaccine like AstraZeneca, they need to provide a reason. They give us the minimum amount of information so they don't ruin public confidence in vaccines. Whatever they are telling us about AstraZeneca, you can count on it being worse. Like AstraZeneca, J & J is a viral vector vaccine. So far it's side effects is following AstraZeneca's footsteps. Precaution needs to be taken. Our most vulnerable, the elderly have already been vaccinated. Why force an experimental vaccine on people who have almost no chance of dying from Covid?

I asked the same question. If the very vast majority is either asymptomatic, or considering the survival rate at over 95% of those who were stricken with COVID, especially now that most of the categorized ‘vulnerable s’ are vaccinated; why are they insistent in vaccinating everyone?

Especially since the vaccine doesn’t stop you from getting and spreading the virus.

They’re not only bombarding me with emails to get my vaccination, they’ve now began sending me text messages!
They’re almost as annoying as the census takers.

Quote
UCLA Health: XXXX, to protect your family, friends, and community, make your COVID-19 vaccine appointment here today: uclahealth.org/schedule
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 14, 2021, 10:43:33 PM



One theory for vaccinating everybody is that we will slow the spread and reduce the chances of the virus mutating. A few experts I mentioned previously said this has never been a strategy in previous epidemics and pandemics. Like you said GQ, even those vaccinated can get infected and pass it around. The only benefit of a vaccine is it gives us a better chance in beating COVID. But most young people have strong immune systems that will beat it anyway.


There's a danger of vaccinating everybody. mRNA vaccines are still unproven and all vaccines are classified as experimental. They were designed to beat the original virus. While our immune systems can beat slight mutations as easily as the original virus, the mRNA vaccines, according to some experts, will not see the variants as an invader of our bodies and the vaccines will not only allow the new variants to roam our bodies freely but will block our own antibodies from attacking the variants. I provided a video explaining this earlier. We will be left with dysfunctional immune systems which will lead to mass depopulation. That is worst case scenario.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 15, 2021, 06:24:12 AM
Still no mask, vaccine, not even social distancing much anymore...and not dead yet.   Maybe my number will come up.   Don't want the vaccine at this time, I'll give my stupid strong genes a pep talk about not being crapped on.   

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 15, 2021, 09:08:09 AM
One theory for vaccinating everybody is that we will slow the spread and reduce the chances of the virus mutating. A few experts I mentioned previously said this has never been a strategy in previous epidemics and pandemics. Like you said GQ, even those vaccinated can get infected and pass it around. The only benefit of a vaccine is it gives us a better chance in beating COVID. But most young people have strong immune systems that will beat it anyway.


BillyB according to CDC, that is still *undetermined*.


Quote
...But we’re still learning how vaccines will affect the spread of COVID-19. ...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 15, 2021, 11:04:27 AM
A recent study's findings:

"Blood clots as prevalent with Pfizer and Moderna vaccine as with AstraZeneca's: study - MarketWatch" http://www.marketwatch.com/amp/story/blood-clots-as-prevalent-with-pfizer-and-moderna-vaccine-as-with-astrazenecas-report-2021-04-15

The study also notes that blood clots are highest in those who have/had Covid itself. Possibly a guess might be made that the body emulates this somewhat when the vaccine is taken in some people. That is just a guess though, could be wrong.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 15, 2021, 11:37:26 AM
Still no mask, vaccine, not even social distancing much anymore...and not dead yet.   Maybe my number will come up.   Don't want the vaccine at this time, I'll give my stupid strong genes a pep talk about not being crapped on.   

Fathertime!

Theoretically many people could do the same, then they get unlucky and get the virus and suffer bad or they may stay lucky and not get it. Some may have strong genes/health, some have young age on their side, some live in remote places or live fairly isolated lifestyles. Thing is many won't know if their genes/health etc is really up to it until it's too late and they find that in fact they are susceptible they just had been lucky to date.

I personally believe it's up to everyone to make their own choices and no one should impose anything or themselves on other people if others take a different stance. I do though think some don't realise that they could be taking a big risk and that their organs may be erected from contracting the virus and hence any quality of life. In fairness while we're not certain of the vaccines at the moment the AZ vaccine for better or worse is where I've staked my bets. A lot of people's personal choices apart from philosophical/religious/political or research may be down to their lifestyle. Guys with a happy family or friendship situation or who are enjoying their life and what they are doing are probably likely to care more than guys with an unhappy family situation, alone, unhappy with what their doing or just so so about their lives. On the other hand others may prefer to just ignore a lot of the virus situation and just focus more on what they enjoy in life I'm guessing.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 15, 2021, 11:41:16 AM
Apparently virus cases have really spiked in India to around 100,000 a day which is huge, but with a vast population of 1.366 billion people or more there is a lot of people for the virus to move through no doubt closely packed with that amount of people. India's population vastly exceeds the US so it's going to take them a long while to vaccinate that many people I'm guessing.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 17, 2021, 03:22:05 AM
Recent news in the UK has been on trials of mixing the vaccines. This personally I would be against for myself as much as possible as I see it as increasing the risk of potentially getting possible future downsides from the various vaccines. For me I'm happy for others to be the Guinea Pigs here and myself wouldn't consider it until way, way down the track if at all. I've made my stake on the AZ vaccine and will risk any downsides that vaccine might have that might emerge. For me it was that or risk catching the virus and risk severely debilitating organ damage. That's a decision I made of my own calling though rather than as a result of the Gov promoting vaccines.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 18, 2021, 07:59:28 AM
One in 1,000 taking birth control developed blood clots.
One in 1,000,000 taking Johnson and Johnson vaccine developed blood clots.

So guys . . . stop taking those birth control pills.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 18, 2021, 08:03:32 AM
A month after Covid vaccine, and all seems to be OK for wife and me.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 19, 2021, 12:25:23 PM
A month after Covid vaccine, and all seems to be OK for wife and me.

Lol, that's a good one ML. Been about a months since I had the AZ vaccine and all seems good so far. Theoretically it should be building up a reasonable amount of immunity now. Will go back for the second one in early June as now I've had the jab I might as well go the whole hog.

Other news in the UK today is that they are apparently wanting to inject people who have had Covid & gotten over it without any obvious problems to inject them with the virus and see how their immune response deals with the virus. Let's hope they don't end up like the two of you in the pic ;D
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 19, 2021, 12:37:58 PM
Crazy again at the tip & the DIY stores again this weekend, today even as well. Seems to be non stop buying of all sorts of DIY stuff but particularly building sand and cement. Never used to be like this at all. The tip today ended up with full rubble skips and was told that was it and they didn't know for sure when it would get taken away. I went to another tip just a bit further away an managed to offload my stuff into that one which was also real full but fortunately no one around to warn me off. My guess is that everyone is doing up their back gardens like there is no tomorrow so they have a nice space to go outside without keep bumping into other people etc where they can relax without having to do enforced exercise lol.

Probably people are now coming to see that we could be in for the long haul on this one so might as well get comfortable surroundings. Fortunately I'm a bit ahead of the curve as got going on my garden a couple of years ago and now it is almost complete :D I've gone for a Oriental style of garden with a fish pond. Just a bit of finishing off to do and and a few small plants and trees and it should be a nice relaxing retreat from it all.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 21, 2021, 08:21:47 AM
I had just received notification from Anthem Bluecross that they can now send me an in-home COVID-19 test kit upon request.





Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 22, 2021, 04:19:55 PM
A month after Covid vaccine, and all seems to be OK for wife and me.


I see you lost your mustache and the hair transplanted to your nipples. You okay with that?




Barring any new surprises like viral vector vaccines had, we know what short term side effects are for mRNA vaccines. I've wondered what the long term effects may be. Worst case scenario predicted by experts are dysfunctional immune systems leading to depopulation. mRNA technology has been studied for around 24 years. One human test subject said his cancer has been reversed. mRNA medicine may be able to cure cancer which would be huge. But, why hasn't any mRNA medicine ever been approved for use on humans? Moderna never had an mRNA product get past the stage two trials. I'd like to know what failures they've had during the animal and clinical trials.




I was in Las Vegas last weekend. Tons of people, no social distancing and many people not wearing masks. One must wear a mask in the casinos but as the night wore on, people got drunk, the masks came off and staff got tired of reminding people to put them on.


Almost 40% of the US population has been vaccinated and we are rolling into warmer weather yet infections and hospitalizations are increasing.


The US is vaccinating Americans at a record pace. But here's why Covid-19 cases and hospitalizations are up (msn.com) (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/the-us-is-vaccinating-americans-at-a-record-pace-but-here-s-why-covid-19-cases-and-hospitalizations-are-up/ar-BB1fQh0t?ocid=msedgntp)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 23, 2021, 09:17:41 AM

I see you lost your mustache and the hair transplanted to your nipples. You okay with that?



OMG I hadn't even noticed until you brought it to my attention !!

I think I will sue . . . just have to determine who.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on April 24, 2021, 06:11:23 AM
Surprised myself last night, voting ballot for the Welsh Assembly (Parliament) Elections arrived. I hadn't intended to vote as didn't think there would be any party that would have anything much worth voting for. I never really thought much need anyway for a Welsh government beyond an organisation for a regional administrative function rather than a law making function. Anyway at the same time I notice flyers for Ukip and one for Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party. I read both and both really spoke to me. Up to that point I had assumed that Ukip were a spent force and had their day, Brexit achieved. Anyway both among other things want to abolish the Welsh Assembly and stop them trying to take Wales back into the EU as an independent nation.

During the Pandemic one of the biggest pains in the arse was the Welsh & Scottish Parliament's drawing up their own separate rules on what can and cannot be done, that and bringing in their own local lockdowns and region wide lockdowns - both proved inadequate and allowed the virus numbers to rise, only the national lockdowns have proven effective to date, Vaccination drive aside. The other issue for me was that if Wales was part of the EU as a Wales would have been subject to the same slow vaccination blunder as the rest of the EU and many more Welsh people die as a result. The final straw for me though was the Welsh Assembly decision not to sell alcohol after 10pm, that was inexcusable to my mind ;D seriously though it was an unnecessary pain in the arse.

So I unreservedly voted for both Ukip and Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party. For some reason there is a Welsh regional WMP and a local constitutency WMP, the above two just had one to vote for in one but not the other so they didn't clash and split the vote I guess which makes sense. That is another problem with devolved government that there is too much replication of the same job. When we were part of the EU Wales would have had to vote for European MP's so yet another layer and another round of voting Lol. That not to mention local Council Elections as well of course :-\. Elections here are always done either postal or in person, not online, but because of the virus are only done by postal ballot for this Election. So that is a hell of a lot of form filling and instructions on how to do to read through. That's something Americans may enjoy but for most of us Brits I think way, way too much voting for many Brits to want to bother to participate long term particularly as it can't be done online so a fair but of time and bother really. Anyway will see how the results go around the 6th May I guess.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 24, 2021, 06:16:30 AM
LA County’s No-Schedule Vaccination Program. In some localities, they’ll make it a walk-up program at pharmacies much like they do with the annual fly shot.

http://youtu.be/UsOWCeS-w8E

Thanks for Trump’s ‘Warp Speed’ program!!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 24, 2021, 08:05:17 AM
Pfizer vaccine easy to get here also.

Seems all the 'at risk' adults who want to take the vaccine have already done so.

Thus, the program has opened up to anyone over age 16-17, can't remember which age.

But that leaves some 40% of the older population who have so far refused to get the vaccine.

Probably we will start offering a carton of cigarettes or a 6 pack of beer with a shot; maybe that will bring some of that group in.  Or perhaps 5 or so lottery tickets.

Probably a chance to have dinner with Milania would be a real draw.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 24, 2021, 09:59:16 AM
Exactly right. As a matter of fact to help celebrate turning the countywide yellow level state, and to entice the old farts and adults to finally get their vaccines, they’re planning of conducting many of the vaccination sites at the neighborhood strip joints. For the stubborn ones, in-home topless nurse vaccination program will soon be conducted. Me, I’ll wait for the latter once I convinced wifey it really is for my health care.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 24, 2021, 03:42:04 PM
My 22-yo Russian stepson received his first Moderna jab.  He works part-time, and his employer will pay him over $150 after the second jab.   

Mama still refuses to be vaccinated out of health fears. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on April 24, 2021, 08:41:38 PM
My 22-yo Russian stepson received his first Moderna jab.  He works part-time, and his employer will pay him over $150 after the second jab.   

Mama still refuses to be vaccinated out of health fears.

Mama's right, don't take the vaccine
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 25, 2021, 09:40:12 AM



Earlier I reported infections rising in the nation. In my county infections are rising although 60% of the population has one or more shots of the vaccine. A certain number who had COVID has natural temporary immunity. It's possible 70% of the population in the country supposedly has immunity from the virus and although we are rolling into warmer weather, infections have increased and my governor is talking about going back to more restrictions. Go figure.

http://www.kiro7.com/news/local/coronavirus-vaccine-milestones-reached-king-county-infections-rise/WS4I5UJ2BZHFDD7RHPIZBLJTKQ/ (http://www.kiro7.com/news/local/coronavirus-vaccine-milestones-reached-king-county-infections-rise/WS4I5UJ2BZHFDD7RHPIZBLJTKQ/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on April 25, 2021, 05:52:19 PM
Mama's right, don't take the vaccine

Depends on which one.  The Pfizer vaccine is very safe.  I had the Astrazeneca vaccine, as it is the only one available to me currently, with no ill effects.

There is a CBC program called Quirks and Quarks which examines all sorts of scientific issues.  They interviewed a scientist from the University of Texas whose research was instrumental in cutting down the time for development of the mRNA vaccines.  That scientist, Jason McLellan, told Quirks and Quarks that his own research had been moved ahead significantly when a Chinese team released an academic paper.  This research is why the vaccine developed so quickly. 

The whole interview is worth a listen, but here's a snippet -

http://tinyurl.com/me4tafyh (http://tinyurl.com/me4tafyh)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on April 25, 2021, 06:29:54 PM
Depends on which one.  The Pfizer vaccine is very safe.  I had the Astrazeneca vaccine, as it is the only one available to me currently, with no ill effects.

There is a CBC program called Quirks and Quarks which examines all sorts of scientific issues.  They interviewed a scientist from the University of Texas whose research was instrumental in cutting down the time for development of the mRNA vaccines.  That scientist, Jason McLellan, told Quirks and Quarks that his own research had been moved ahead significantly when a Chinese team released an academic paper.  This research is why the vaccine developed so quickly. 

The whole interview is worth a listen, but here's a snippet -

http://tinyurl.com/me4tafyh (http://tinyurl.com/me4tafyh)

Ah, no. I still ain't buying it. There is no good going to come from injecting a poison like mRNA into your body, for any reason. A body which is quite capable of defending against a virus such as covid anyway. The world is on the verge of believing a lie. mRNA is a solution to a problem that doesn't really exist, it would appear it's main function is to create problems. Covid is real, we know this but it's not the killer it's been promoted as for an entire worlds population to march down and accept the poison. You've been mislead
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 26, 2021, 09:37:54 AM



Although vaccines are rolling out in full speed and the weather is warmer, Current daily infections worldwide has doubled compared to February and daily deaths increased too.


http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ (http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 26, 2021, 10:29:35 AM
Although vaccines are rolling out in full speed and the weather is warmer, Current daily infections worldwide has doubled compared to February and daily deaths increased too.

http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ (http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/)



Man! The US covid-19 mortality rate went up to an unnerving, jaw-dropping, alarming two-tenths of 1 percent today. Gawd almighty help us!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 26, 2021, 12:44:50 PM

Man! The US covid-19 mortality rate went up to an unnerving, jaw-dropping, alarming two-tenths of 1 percent today. Gawd almighty help us!

I think there is a lot more to be concerned about than just death from covid.

I have seen some of the interviews with people who had it and survived. 
They told of almost unbearable pain and discomfort from its affects. 
Like a 300 pound person sitting on your chest for days, weeks and months.
I certainly would not have wanted to go through it, and may decided to end my life just to stop it.

And then there are the long-haulers who never get over it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 26, 2021, 03:38:29 PM
I think there is a lot more to be concerned about than just death from covid.

I have seen some of the interviews with people who had it and survived. 
They told of almost unbearable pain and discomfort from its affects. 
Like a 300 pound person sitting on your chest for days, weeks and months.
I certainly would not have wanted to go through it, and may decided to end my life just to stop it.

And then there are the long-haulers who never get over it.


I don't doubt the point you make, ML.


I had my annual check-up with the good doctor last week. We had time to discuss COVID, vaccination and the darn statistics. He obviously is a strong proponent of the vaccination. I told him at times I rely too heavily on numbers, and casually made the point of the mortality rate, but he immediately countered on this being skewed. He said it is misleading because the fatality within my age bracket represent the majority of the fatality on COVID.


He does have a point I can't, and won't, argue with.
http://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/ (http://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/)

But interestingly however, if you took the subset of this from the whole (50 plus age range - mortality v population), it isn't that much different, rate-wise. It would 'only' be at the 4 tenths of 1% range.


population slice (http://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/distribution-by-age/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 26, 2021, 07:19:44 PM
I think there is a lot more to be concerned about than just death from covid.

I have seen some of the interviews with people who had it and survived. 
They told of almost unbearable pain and discomfort from its affects. 
Like a 300 pound person sitting on your chest for days, weeks and months.
I certainly would not have wanted to go through it, and may decided to end my life just to stop it.

And then there are the long-haulers who never get over it.


My friend got it and almost died. He said it was like a boa constrictor around his chest. He had to go to the hospital emergency room 3 times. Covid gave him blood clots and he was in pain for over a month. He's in his early 50's and has a compromised immune system. I asked if he's going to take a vaccine and his answer was a big "NO". He worked as a nurse in a laboratory that did drug trials and knows the vigorous testing they go through. It scares him on how fast they rushed the vaccines. Certain safety tests take years to complete and that did not happen with the current vaccines. Since they provide temporary immunity, people will need to take more shots of the experimental vaccines. People may need to take more experimental vaccines for COVID variants. Vaccine manufactures will be immune from lawsuits. Who knows how long this will last? The experts in charge aren't revealing their long term game plan.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on April 26, 2021, 08:13:10 PM


But interestingly however, if you took the subset of this from the whole (50 plus age range - mortality v population), it isn't that much different, rate-wise. It would 'only' be at the 4 tenths of 1% range.
My poor old pops (Closing in on 101 years old) chastises me for not getting the shot. "Do you want to be one of the dead".  I continue to have no interest.  I'll fight the fight if I have to, win/lose/draw.  At least 1 daughter, wife, and son have already had it.  I'd be surprised if I didn't pick it up at some point, and not have too bad of symptoms.  Given my relatively low level of risk, I'll take my chances with my own immune system.    There could be a point in the future where the virus mutates in a more deadly way, in which case if a vaccine is shown to help in that case, I may change my mind.



Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 27, 2021, 09:46:36 AM


Long term safety studies on vaccines still need more time to conclude but there will always be a steady stream of reports coming out that will put experimental vaccines in a bad light.


Thousands of women report their menstrual cycle is affected by the vaccines.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/researchers-looking-into-link-between-covid-vaccine-and-menstruation/2495593/


Report says mRNA vaccines can trigger neurological diseases.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/04/report-pfizer-moderna-covid-vaccines-trigger-alzheimers-als-neurological-d

http://www.hennessysview.com/images/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf


After 40 years of research, we don't have a vaccine for the virus that causes HIV/AIDS. We don't have a vaccine for the common cold. No cure for cancer. All of a sudden we have a new virus show up, vaccines are created in a few months, it will be effective for only a few months, and they want everybody in the world to inject something into their bodies that is not approved for humans and get never ending booster shots.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 27, 2021, 10:10:11 AM
While not as deadly as COVID-19, it is nonetheless reportedly an excruciatingly painful experience older folks go through if one is not vaccinated for it. Shingles (http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postherpetic-neuralgia/symptoms-causes/syc-20376588#:~:text=Postherpetic%20neuralgia%20occurs%20if%20your,last%20months%20%E2%80%94%20or%20even%20years) affect 1 in 3 older (50+) folks.


So how many is aware, or even know, what shingles is and what it can actually do to you if you're not vaccinated? Way less than half (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db370.htm#:~:text=Data%20from%20the%20National%20Health,ever%20received%20a%20shingles%20vaccine).
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 27, 2021, 10:41:02 AM
My poor old pops (Closing in on 101 years old) chastises me for not getting the shot. "Do you want to be one of the dead".  I continue to have no interest.  I'll fight the fight if I have to, win/lose/draw.  At least 1 daughter, wife, and son have already had it.  I'd be surprised if I didn't pick it up at some point, and not have too bad of symptoms.  Given my relatively low level of risk, I'll take my chances with my own immune system.    There could be a point in the future where the virus mutates in a more deadly way, in which case if a vaccine is shown to help in that case, I may change my mind.

Fathertime!


Both my in-laws are also urging me to get vaccinated. FIL is more adamant about this than MIL. Then again, fatherly advice also warned me against getting an electric car, too. His biggest reason against that is - 'look what happened in Texas!'

Of course, the chances of that ever happening again is not very good, so therein lies the whole 'numbers' (odds)  application again.

But FWIW, wifey got her vaccination appointment this Friday.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 27, 2021, 12:26:40 PM
While not as deadly as COVID-19, it is nonetheless reportedly an excruciatingly painful experience older folks go through if one is not vaccinated for it. Shingles (http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/postherpetic-neuralgia/symptoms-causes/syc-20376588#:~:text=Postherpetic%20neuralgia%20occurs%20if%20your,last%20months%20%E2%80%94%20or%20even%20years) affect 1 in 3 older (50+) folks.


So how many is aware, or even know, what shingles is and what it can actually do to you if you're not vaccinated? Way less than half (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db370.htm#:~:text=Data%20from%20the%20National%20Health,ever%20received%20a%20shingles%20vaccine).

I got two Shingles vaccines.
There was an older one that was 60-70% (or something like that) effective.
The newer one (Shingrex) is something like 90-95% effective.

I had a strong fear of Shingles because my Mother got it and was one of the 5% or so who have lingering effects the rest of their lives.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on April 27, 2021, 07:58:08 PM

Both my in-laws are also urging me to get vaccinated. FIL is more adamant about this than MIL. Then again, fatherly advice also warned me against getting an electric car, too. His biggest reason against that is - 'look what happened in Texas!'

Of course, the chances of that ever happening again is not very good, so therein lies the whole 'numbers' (odds)  application again.

But FWIW, wifey got her vaccination appointment this Friday.

Try to dissuade her
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 27, 2021, 10:10:27 PM



Earlier I posted the former senior project manager for epidemics at the Gates Foundation and former VP and Chief Science officer at Pfizer saying mass vaccinations can lead to depopulation by compromising our immune systems. This mass vaccination of experimental vaccines has never been a strategy against pandemics and it may be a colossal blunder. The guy in the video explains it in simple terms. He shows how our immune system works and the vaccines work and how it can stop our immune system from working. For a healthy person, it's best to wait for this experiment to end. It may end well. It may not end well.


http://gab.com/QAnon_John/posts/105991648263486665 (http://gab.com/QAnon_John/posts/105991648263486665)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 28, 2021, 09:11:47 AM
Try to dissuade her


Wifey and I sat down and actually discussed this at length. I'm on the fence, and she was too at one time. What I did told my wife was - I've no right to tell her what she needs to do regarding whether or not she should get vaccinated. I am not even sure if I should or not myself. I'm neither a scientist or a doctor, and trust in our government had gone out the window for me. Especially this past 12+ years. Intense distrust the past 4.5!


I wish I had the answer, FP. But I do not.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 28, 2021, 10:02:02 AM

What I did told my wife was - I've no right to tell her what she needs to do regarding whether or not she should get vaccinated.



In the past I've told my wife she is my family and I do have a say about what she does if she gets into something that will destroy herself and the family such as drugs, gambling or other addictions.

Not all safety studies have been completed on vaccines. I admit they will work against the virus but there is a chance as experts have claimed the vaccines can weaken our immune systems and make us more likely to die from pathogens in the future leading to mass depopulation. I certainly wouldn't give experimental vaccines to children in my care which is probably a crime anyway so basically I can't recommend giving the vaccines to anybody except those who have a high risk of dying from COVID.

mRNA vaccines have been studied for decades. Moderna's pipeline of medicine is in the link below. They have never had a mRNA medicine approved for the market. Our government has never allowed any of their medicines to make it to stage 3 trials. What are the issues that are keeping their medicines in stage 2? I'd like to know those things before recommending the vaccine. We may not like the answer so for now, I trust a couple of experts, who are qualified to lead teams of medical scientists, when they say we may be making a colossal blunder with the mass vaccination strategy.

http://www.modernatx.com/pipeline
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on April 28, 2021, 07:31:22 PM

Wifey and I sat down and actually discussed this at length. I'm on the fence, and she was too at one time. What I did told my wife was - I've no right to tell her what she needs to do regarding whether or not she should get vaccinated. I am not even sure if I should or not myself. I'm neither a scientist or a doctor, and trust in our government had gone out the window for me. Especially this past 12+ years. Intense distrust the past 4.5!


I wish I had the answer, FP. But I do not.

Answers a few and far between but I do see and understand your point. My wife and I have had the same discussions and we always come to the same conclusion, there's no logical need to get the poke. It doesn't add up. Of course we could both be wrong but I'd personally rather be wrong without the poison in my body than right with it inside me

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on April 28, 2021, 08:17:41 PM
"Few diseases have inspired more fear than polio. During the first half of the twentieth century, summertime polio epidemics left wakes of paralysis and death behind them, forcing summer camps, movie theatres, and public pools to close. Newspapers regularly featured horrific images of children struggling to walk or breathe. Adults also suffered: after contracting the virus in 1921, when he was thirty-nine, Franklin D. Roosevelt was forced to use a wheelchair or leg braces for the rest of his life."

http://www.newyorker.com/science/annals-of-medicine/the-last-time-a-vaccine-saved-america?itm_content=footer-recirc

People were more enthusiastic about vaccines when I was a kid.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 28, 2021, 08:32:37 PM


If one doesn't want to take the vaccine now, they can take it next year. Moderna CEO said they are making a billion doses this year and 1.4 billion next year.

Or one can allow their own natural immunity to handle the virus. One thing not talked about is we've come a long way in therapeutics. If ones immunity system struggles to beat the virus, there are medicines to help.

Looking at Moderna's pipeline of vaccines again, I see they have a few for cancer stuck in phases 1 and 2 trials. If anything must be rushed, why not rush those vaccines? Much more people dying from cancer than COVID right now. 1 out of every 6 deaths in the world is due to cancer. When a person has cancer, it destroys their organs and their quality of life diminishes even if they survive cancer.

http://ourworldindata.org/cancer#:~:text=Almost%20ten%20million%20people%20die,cause%20of%20every%20sixth%20death (http://ourworldindata.org/cancer#:~:text=Almost%20ten%20million%20people%20die,cause%20of%20every%20sixth%20death).
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 29, 2021, 05:00:10 AM

People were more enthusiastic about vaccines when I was a kid.

I lived those days.  My 7-yo girlfriend (no age gap)  got polio and survived.  I recall it frightened my parents, which thus frightened me.  The world wanted protection.   

In the 50s having just won a world war and facing a rising global wave of communism, the nation was less divided, certainly more patriotic.    News sources were consistent, more supportive of the government.  Most reported fake stories originated from the government.   And now we know it worked with regard to polio and some other diseases

I don't understand the fear of the mRNA vaccines.  The injected material is assimilated (undetectable) after 48 hours,  More important,. it does not attach to DNA. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on April 29, 2021, 07:02:35 AM
Pfizer has new drug for treatment of covid.
The drug is part of a class of medicines called protease inhibitors and works by inhibiting an enzyme that the virus needs to replicate in human cells.

Protease inhibitors are used to treat other viral pathogens such as HIV and hepatitis C.

If clinical trials go well and the Food and Drug Administration approves it, the drug could be distributed across the U.S. by the end of the year, Bourla told CNBC's "Squawk Box."

Health experts say the drug, taken by mouth, could be a game changer because people newly infected with the virus could use it outside of hospitals. Researchers hope the medication will keep the disease from progressing and prevent hospital trips.


http://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/27/pfizer-at-home-covid-pill-could-be-available-by-year-end-ceo-albert-bourla-says.html

In addition to the drug, Pfizer is still testing its vaccine in 6-month to 11-year-old children. Vaccinating children is crucial to ending the coronavirus pandemic, public health officials and infectious disease experts say.

Earlier this month, the company asked the FDA to expand its vaccine authorization to adolescents ages 12 to 15 after the shot was found to be 100% effective in a study.

Bourla told CNBC on Tuesday he is "very optimistic" that the FDA will approve use of the shot in adolescents.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 29, 2021, 09:08:08 AM
I don't understand the fear of the mRNA vaccines.  The injected material is assimilated (undetectable) after 48 hours,  More important,. it does not attach to DNA.
 


Simply put, long term studies on the mRNA vaccines have not been completed and two very accomplished experts on vaccines have come out and said it's possible our current vaccination program could lead to dysfunctional natural immune systems which in turn could lead to mass depopulation. One expert was once the senior project manager for epidemics at the Bill Gates Foundation and the other was an ex senior VP and chief science officer at Pfizer. Both are accomplished and qualified to lead teams of medical scientists. I've read a lot of stuff from independent doctors but won't post it here because it's easy to find doctors on either side of the fence. I do trust those two guys because of their credentials and they've been there, done that.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 29, 2021, 09:11:33 AM
Some medical doctors are rather strange folks, given their training.

Especially those that smoke and refuse vaccination.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 29, 2021, 01:10:16 PM
I don't understand the fear of the mRNA vaccines.



I want to add one more thing. There is a huge distrust of government right now. There are a lot of conspiracy theories floating around because of it. The government's failure to be honest and transparent on a variety of issues has built up a resistance to anything they say. The government can only blame themselves if they fail to get enough people to take a vaccine.


We don't need 100% of the people to take the vaccine anyway. What was last years estimation of the percent of the population needed to achieve immunity so that we get herd immunity? 60-70% I recall.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 29, 2021, 11:15:20 PM



CDC put out a new commercial. A new side effect been discovered that affects only males. For the males here that had the vaccine, has your sex life been affected for better or worse?




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEiWA-VZT_k
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 30, 2021, 02:18:55 PM
So wifey got her Pfizer shot earlier this morning. She said she never even got out of the car as they greeted them at the gate and had them line up in between the cones, then one by one was instructed to advance to the vaccination stations (10 minutes). Once she got the shot, they had her park in a spot, and they had personnel waiting for them to engage them to talk, monitor, and overall get them relax a bit as apparently anxiety strikes everyone after the jab (15 minutes).


In less than 30 minutes, she was off and running. I asked her if they told her when can she expect the tail to start growing? My poor darling...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 30, 2021, 02:36:07 PM
get them relax a bit as apparently anxiety strikes everyone after the jab (15 minutes).



Never heard any talk about the anxiety thing here in my area.

Neither wife nor I had any anxiety before or after.

Wife now past the two week mark after second shot.

We will think about going to restaurant for first time since . . . forever.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on April 30, 2021, 03:04:47 PM

We will think about going to restaurant for first time since . . . forever.

Gawd, your state was indeed shut down.  The restaurants in FL stayed open, yet restricted.  Wife was anxious, yet went along, even in the days when she washed and sprayed the groceries before bringing them into the house
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 30, 2021, 03:51:32 PM
Never heard any talk about the anxiety thing here in my area.

Neither wife nor I had any anxiety before or after.

Wife now past the two week mark after second shot.

We will think about going to restaurant for first time since . . . forever.


Most folks tell me they had a one day fever after the second shot. I think the whole 'anxiety' observation/chat is a safe cap in case there's a reaction to the vaccine.


You said..We will think about.., you mean you're still in the deliberation state even after both of you had your vaccinations?  :P 


We did have a good time being one of the first to reserve our tickets when AMC opened 2-3 weeks ago. I can't believe how something so trivial seemed so significant all of the sudden.
[size=78%] [/size]
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 30, 2021, 07:50:39 PM
Gawd, your state was indeed shut down.  The restaurants in FL stayed open, yet restricted.  Wife was anxious, yet went along, even in the days when she washed and sprayed the groceries before bringing them into the house

Restaurants have been open off and on with restrictions.
We just never went.
Wife is still disinfecting all items than come into the house from stores.
A big job, but she is very energetic . . . probably because she is a 'little bit' younger than me.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on April 30, 2021, 07:54:44 PM

You said..We will think about.., you mean you're still in the deliberation state even after both of you had your vaccinations?  :P 


Wife is super cautious type.
But there are a couple of valid considerations.
1) We know the vaccinations are less than 100% effective.
2) Uncertain whether the Pfizer (and others) are effective at all against the variations.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on April 30, 2021, 08:28:24 PM
http://youtu.be/kZ5DavuOkcM

Unsure why this is a newsflash, if true. Good ol’ Bill is a liberal.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 30, 2021, 08:29:21 PM


Biden placed travel bans on dozens of countries with the latest being India. Biden acts because he cares. When Trump did travel bans last year, he did it because he was racist and never listens to medical experts and WHO who say travel bans don't work.

http://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-biden-set-ban-most-travel-us-india-limit-covid-19-spread-2021-04-30/ (http://www.reuters.com/world/us/exclusive-biden-set-ban-most-travel-us-india-limit-covid-19-spread-2021-04-30/)


Couple of interesting sites. First site shows countries with highest amount of population vaccinated. USA #3. Remember when Trump was criticized for hogging up the vaccine rights and attempting to purchase foreign companies that manufacture vaccines? Second site shows all nations data pertaining to vaccination. FSU nations doing poorly. China doesn't report but then again, looking at worldometers, nations with a few hundred thousand people have more COVID issues than China, a nation of 1.4 billion people.

http://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations (http://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations)

http://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/vaccination-rollout-and-access/ (http://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/vaccination-rollout-and-access/)


Report says Pfizer vaccine may cause neurological problems and diabetes.

http://nationalfile.com/report-pfizer-vaccine-confirmed-to-cause-neurodegenerative-diseases/ (http://nationalfile.com/report-pfizer-vaccine-confirmed-to-cause-neurodegenerative-diseases/)

http://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf (http://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf)


Someone found this 60 Minutes hosted by Mike Wallace oldie. 1976 America had a swine flu problem and the government rushed vaccines. Thousands of people got neurological diseases eroding public confidence in vaccines.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIFnmuiW7I8
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on April 30, 2021, 09:02:25 PM
Unsure why this is a newsflash, if true. Good ol’ Bill is a liberal.



Krystal Ball is a liberal too but I don't think she completely understands Bill Gates. We can't just take high tech vaccines and make them in India in a sweat shop on a whim. It takes high tech facilities to make those vaccines. Even in America, we had to throw out millions of vaccines due to manufacture error. In other countries, no problem. If a mistake happens, don't tell anyone and sell the defective vaccine instead of throwing it away. The cure becomes worse than the problem.


Protecting intellectual property was talked about in the video. One thing not talked about is that mRNA technology can be used as a biological weapon. Just as easily as it can program our bodies to fight and defeat cancer, it can program our bodies to initiate organ failure after a few months. So if we hand off the manufacturing process to India to help get their people vaccinated, I'm sure China, Iran and Russia will offer a few million dollars to an Indian medical scientist to get the blueprints.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 01, 2021, 02:22:58 AM

Even in America, we had to throw out millions of vaccines due to manufacture error.

Hardly 'sweat shop' BillyB.  The EMA and FDA regularly inspect facilities in all countries that export pharmaceuticals to the US and EU.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 01, 2021, 09:40:40 AM
Hardly 'sweat shop' BillyB.  The EMA and FDA regularly inspect facilities in all countries that export pharmaceuticals to the US and EU.


Bill Gates spent billions a year ago working with established vaccine manufactures to build facilities to create vaccines. It takes time to build these facilities and get them inspected. Even if nobody was worried about intellectual property getting stolen, there's simply no facility in India that can do mRNA production at this time. Krystal Ball thinks it can happen instantly to help the people of India. Her heart is in the right place but what she proposes isn't practical. The best thing that we can do is build more facilities in America and ship the vaccines overseas. The cost of shipping will be high due to cold storage requirements but it'll protect intellectual rights. India should shoulder the blame for failing to secure vaccine rights for their people. Last year they had a few vaccines being worked on in their country. I assume none of their vaccines work.


http://www.wsj.com/articles/bill-gates-to-spend-billions-on-coronavirus-vaccine-development-11586124716 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/bill-gates-to-spend-billions-on-coronavirus-vaccine-development-11586124716)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on May 03, 2021, 10:44:58 AM
"Now, more than half of adults in the United States have been inoculated with at least one dose of a vaccine. But daily vaccination rates are slipping, and there is widespread consensus among scientists and public health experts that the herd immunity threshold is not attainable — at least not in the foreseeable future, and perhaps not ever.

Instead, they are coming to the conclusion that rather than making a long-promised exit, the virus will most likely become a manageable threat that will continue to circulate in the United States for years to come, still causing hospitalizations and deaths but in much smaller numbers.

How much smaller is uncertain and depends in part on how much of the nation, and the world, becomes vaccinated and how the coronavirus evolves. It is already clear, however, that the virus is changing too quickly, new variants are spreading too easily and vaccination is proceeding too slowly for herd immunity to be within reach anytime soon.

Continued immunizations, especially for people at highest risk because of age, exposure or health status, will be crucial to limiting the severity of outbreaks, if not their frequency, experts believe."

http://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/03/health/covid-herd-immunity-vaccine.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 03, 2021, 11:11:53 AM
"Now, more than half of adults in the United States have been inoculated with at least one dose of a vaccine. But daily vaccination rates are slipping, and there is widespread consensus among scientists and public health experts that the herd immunity threshold is not attainable — at least not in the foreseeable future, and perhaps not ever.

Instead, they are coming to the conclusion that rather than making a long-promised exit, the virus will most likely become a manageable threat that will continue to circulate in the United States for years to come, still causing hospitalizations and deaths but in much smaller numbers.

How much smaller is uncertain and depends in part on how much of the nation, and the world, becomes vaccinated and how the coronavirus evolves. It is already clear, however, that the virus is changing too quickly, new variants are spreading too easily and vaccination is proceeding too slowly for herd immunity to be within reach anytime soon.

Continued immunizations, especially for people at highest risk because of age, exposure or health status, will be crucial to limiting the severity of outbreaks, if not their frequency, experts believe."

http://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/03/health/covid-herd-immunity-vaccine.html (http://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/03/health/covid-herd-immunity-vaccine.html)


Curiously fascinating, isn't it?


While this article seem to suggest we're basically resigned to be doomed going forward, in Wuhan, ground zero for this doomsday mother-of-all-killer; seem to have kicked the virus as though it never really happened.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIQ2ozMORvo


Things that make you go hhhmmm.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on May 03, 2021, 03:56:24 PM
It appears Darwin may have to sort the mess out. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 03, 2021, 04:26:50 PM



Worldometers experts say 18-24 months till pandemic's end and need 60-70% immunity among population to get to herd immunity. Although less and less people are willing to take a vaccine, vaccinations aren't the only thing that can get a person immune. Your own immune system can do that too.



May 1 (GMT)
News

The Future of the COVID-19 Pandemic: Lessons Learned from Pandemic Influenza, by Moore, Lipsitch, Barry, Osterholm - COVID-19: The CIDRAP Viewpoint, April 30, 2020: [
source pdf (http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/sites/default/files/public/downloads/cidrap-covid19-viewpoint-part1_0.pdf)] [about (http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/covid-19-cidrap-viewpoint)]The length of the pandemic will likely be 18 to 24 months
[/size]
[/font]
3 Scenarios following the first wave of COVID-19 in spring 2020:Scenario 1: a series of repetitive smaller waves that occur through the summer and then consistently over a 1-to 2-year period, gradually diminishing sometime in 2021

Whichever scenario the pandemic follows (assuming at least some level of ongoing mitigation measures), we must be prepared for at least another 18 to 24 months of significant COVID-19 activity
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 03, 2021, 09:59:31 PM



Well, more people are going to distrust everything the government says about the virus. When Biden is on tv with nobody around, he'll wear a mask. When he's walking outside, he'll wear two masks. When he's indoors with 96 yo Jimmy Carter and his 93 yo wife, Biden doesn't practice social distancing or wear a mask. Reminds me of 80+ yo Pelosi and Feinstein walking through airports without a mask and John Kerry sitting in an airplane without a mask. This photo is going viral.

http://twitter.com/CarterCenter/status/1389400596004970501
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 04, 2021, 10:01:22 PM



Denmark bans the Johnson and Johnson vaccine.

http://www.businessinsider.com/johnson-and-johnson-vaccine-side-effects-denmark-bans-blood-clots-2021-5


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 05, 2021, 09:52:21 AM



The country with the most fully vaccinated people at over 62% has seen a surge in cases. A third of the cases are from people who are fully vaccinated. Seems like it's going to be harder to achieve herd immunity.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-56992121

http://www.bloombergquint.com/politics/world-s-most-vaccinated-nation-reintroduces-curbs-as-cases-surge
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on May 06, 2021, 09:57:18 AM


The country with the most fully vaccinated people at over 62% has seen a surge in cases. A third of the cases are from people who are fully vaccinated. Seems like it's going to be harder to achieve herd immunity.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-56992121

http://www.bloombergquint.com/politics/world-s-most-vaccinated-nation-reintroduces-curbs-as-cases-surge

My guess is Billy that being so close to India the variant there has jumped over and is getting past the vaccine somewhat that was designed for the original virus. Apparently it still helps out in reducing the severity of it etc but we'll have to wait and see how it goes there. The booster her is out in the autumn so we'll have to see the effect that has also.

Here in the UK they are about to announce the green light list of countries that can be travelled to & from with reduced checks etc, it's apparently not going to be that long a list. Officially the virus figures for infections are going down quite steeply in Ukraine so will have to wait and see if or when they make the green light list. Travel can begin from the 17th May I assume for holidays etc but will have to wait for the details. I won't be rushing out there as prefer others to test the system first rather than fall victim to the system. There's an off chance it will get easier to travel thereafter depending on how things go here & abroad with the virus.

I've just done a new Fdate profile just to test the water and to chat to a few FSW. Not going into it real full on at the moment as it will like he at least a month till I fly etc just fancied getting back into it again.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: John Gaunt on May 06, 2021, 11:31:55 AM
My guess is Billy that being so close to India the variant there has jumped over and is getting past the vaccine somewhat that was designed for the original virus. Apparently it still helps out in reducing the severity of it etc but we'll have to wait and see how it goes there. The booster her is out in the autumn so we'll have to see the effect that has also.

Here in the UK they are about to announce the green light list of countries that can be travelled to & from with reduced checks etc, it's apparently not going to be that long a list. Officially the virus figures for infections are going down quite steeply in Ukraine so will have to wait and see if or when they make the green light list. Travel can begin from the 17th May I assume for holidays etc but will have to wait for the details. I won't be rushing out there as prefer others to test the system first rather than fall victim to the system. There's an off chance it will get easier to travel thereafter depending on how things go here & abroad with the virus.

I've just done a new Fdate profile just to test the water and to chat to a few FSW. Not going into it real full on at the moment as it will like he at least a month till I fly etc just fancied getting back into it again.
Eh, you must have flunked your Geography GCSE’s.
Seychelles lies about 2500 miles south of India. Not ‘close’ by any means.

The reason the infection rate is going up is because of tourism, same as the Maldives (much closer to India) and they’ve been using the dodgy Chinese vaccine.



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 08, 2021, 07:06:39 AM
Unfortunately things are now out of all the lockdown silliness in LA. Maybe I got used to the lockdown so much I’m not too cool with things being back to what life was like. We now have traffic jams, crowd everywhere. Tough to get good tee times, restaurant reservations, etc...all over again.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on May 10, 2021, 08:52:15 AM
http://youtu.be/XRtRJLRRnpU


Links to sources on YouTube page. 30 minute video
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 10, 2021, 09:13:26 AM
When all is said and done, this is still a 'guess' based on what he said from the beginning - "extrapolated the cases from (what he deemed as) 'accurate reporting' from countries to countries he felt didn't accurately reported their actual 'COVID' mortality.


Bottom line is, this was a novel virus. At the onset no one was aware when it first struck the masses. Then it's taken a while before they even realized what it was, much less how to treat it. To make this even more complicated, many countries simply didn't have the appointment or resources to deal with it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 11, 2021, 01:43:08 PM



Since the Obama administration, Fauci been giving millions to study bat coronaviruses with the Wuhan lab benefitting. We may have funded the creation of the coronavirus that is in our bodies and hurting our economy.

http://twitter.com/seanmdav/status/1392176879826870274
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on May 12, 2021, 10:06:03 PM
Looks like the India variant is is increasing in the UK, apparently trebled in cases in the last week or so, so I'm guy taking over from the original. Virus figures overall hovering around 2000 a day mark, but for how long? Looks likely he possibly the ongoing vaccination program may be keeping it down for the meanwhile.

This recent report shows how the Indian variant may affect an already vaccinated person:

BBC News - India Covid: Do reinfections pose a challenge to vaccines?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-57084572

So fortunately not as bad as having it without any vaccine but potentially still a bad reaction maybe possible in some people.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on May 13, 2021, 06:03:14 AM
I continue to find it astounding as we're approaching 1/2 billion (?) vaccinations world wide that folks continue to soak this covid stuff up. We have people who work to de-populate the world offering vaccines to save the world from a near harmless virus that they created. A virus that our bodies immune system will defend from it anyway that is, until the vaccine that attacks and changes that same immune system. The kool-aid abounds. Think people, THINK
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on May 13, 2021, 06:26:23 AM
I continue to find it astounding as we're approaching 1/2 billion (?) vaccinations world wide that folks continue to soak this covid stuff up. We have people who work to de-populate the world offering vaccines to save the world from a near harmless virus that they created. A virus that our bodies immune system will defend from it anyway that is, until the vaccine that attacks and changes that same immune system. The kool-aid abounds. Think people, THINK
Well, quite a few people have died from it, and from what I've gathered a concern is that the longer the virus is out there in mass, the more likely it is to mutate into some form that is significantly more deadly.  I really don't think there is a grand plan to use the vaccine to depopulate the planet. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on May 13, 2021, 07:01:43 AM
Well, quite a few people have died from it, and from what I've gathered a concern is that the longer the virus is out there in mass, the more likely it is to mutate into some form that is significantly more deadly.  I really don't think there is a grand plan to use the vaccine to depopulate the planet. 

Fathertime!

Enjoy your kool-aid
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on May 13, 2021, 07:44:08 AM
Enjoy your kool-aid

I wouldn't be so dismissive if you look at what is happening in India people are getting in dire straits over there. It's all good not believing until it gets you then it's too late. I understand Billy's concern over mRNA, Pzifer, Moderna, etc so I took the Astra Zenaca vaccine. To date I am pleased I have done as if the India variant grows in the UK and elsewhere it at least helps out a bit. I know there is a risk with all vaccines but I just preferred to take that risk with the AZ vaccine over the Coronavirus risk is the way I saw it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 13, 2021, 02:46:18 PM
The US, as it may soon be revealed, prove complicit in the clinical 'creation' of COVID-19 via financing of research given to scientist and foundation working in Wuhan in their experiment research on lab rats before. More will hopefully surface about this madness.


Sen. Rand Paul's questioning dancing Anthony Fauci yesterday had him talking out his arse yet again.


http://youtu.be/xw0n3HZXLmo
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 13, 2021, 03:37:40 PM



Fauci of course is going to say we didn't fund the development of the virus in our bodies but we did fund China's virology lab. It's kind of like saying we didn't fund the crime but we did fund the criminal(China) who committed the crime. This funding to China started during the Obama administration.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 13, 2021, 04:25:37 PM
Giving credit where credit is due, obama in fact banned virus research that involved gain of function. So Fauci was principal in renaming the foundation to something else, and the funds continued.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 13, 2021, 04:28:09 PM
http://www.nih.gov/about-nih/who-we-are/nih-director/statements/nih-lifts-funding-pause-gain-function-research (http://www.nih.gov/about-nih/who-we-are/nih-director/statements/nih-lifts-funding-pause-gain-function-research)


Quote
"Though for the policy to be successful it needs to, at a minimum, be able to oversee the creation of novel strains that may be highly transmissible and highly virulent and should probably focus on that most intently to start."

A potentially serious weakness of the new framework is that surveillance activities involving potential pandemic pathogens (PPPs), including sampling and sequencing, aren't considered to be enhanced PPPs and would be exempt from reviews, Inglesby said, adding that surveillance as a rationale doesn't change potential risks of novel PPP strains. "There are serious debates about whether specific enhanced PPP projects are materially useful to on-the-ground surveillance programs," he said.

Inglesby's other concerns revolve around the lack of hard details of how the experiment reviews will work, such as the process for weighing the risks and benefits and the criteria for judging if researchers and institutions have the capacity to do the work safely. "I would have liked to see if this framework was working as intended before the moratorium was ended," he said, suggesting that agencies funding the work publish their experiences using the new framework to show how it functions.

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2017/12/feds-lift-gain-function-research-pause-offer-guidance (http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2017/12/feds-lift-gain-function-research-pause-offer-guidance)


 :-X
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on May 13, 2021, 09:03:10 PM
Enjoy your kool-aid
I shall enjoy. 

You seem to believe their is a grand conspiracy to depopulate the earth  with covid and the vaccine being the vehicle.   I'd tell you to enjoy that particular brand of kool aid but it wouldn't be appropriate. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 13, 2021, 09:41:37 PM
Giving credit where credit is due, obama in fact banned virus research that involved gain of function. So Fauci was principal in renaming the foundation to something else, and the funds continued.



Obama can ban gain of function but hands money to China trusting them. Obama can ban nukes but hands money to Iran trusting them.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on May 14, 2021, 12:18:42 AM
Looks likely like India could prove to be a real problem for the global control of the virus. Could keep mutating out there and them not having enough time to vaccinate the population before another mutation occurs. Unless they can sort out a quicker way of Vaccinating the population or get effective ways of isolating each other it doesn't look a very good outlook.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 14, 2021, 10:38:33 AM

Obama can ban gain of function but hands money to China trusting them. Obama can ban nukes but hands money to Iran trusting them.


Many of your posts of late is starting to color you the same shade many of the residing Democrats here.

Again, funding for G-O-F research was banned in 2014 under the Obama Administration. It was lifted December 2017 under the Trump administration. Like Russiagate, and the rest of the anti-Trump basuras politicians, media and its kool-aiders tried to paint Trump with, implying Obama funded the G-O-F research AFTER he banned it, is BS.

http://www.nih.gov/about-nih/who-we-are/nih-director/statements/nih-lifts-funding-pause-gain-function-research (http://www.nih.gov/about-nih/who-we-are/nih-director/statements/nih-lifts-funding-pause-gain-function-research)


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 14, 2021, 07:03:56 PM
We all recall the Democrats often chanting during the pandemic, "Policy Must Follow Science."    And the science compelled masking in sporting events, kissing only with masks, disinfecting groceries and mail, etc. 

The scientists have spoken.  CDC now says masks are unnecessary for vaccinated individuals, indoors or outdoors, socially distanced or not.  Incredible how our science changed overnight.  An Isaac Newton discovery.....Nobel Prize material
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on May 14, 2021, 09:17:40 PM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/MC_BurnBabyBurn_web20210514120000.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 15, 2021, 12:17:23 AM

Again, funding for G-O-F research was banned in 2014 under the Obama Administration. It was lifted December 2017 under the Trump administration. Like Russiagate, and the rest of the anti-Trump basuras politicians, media and its kool-aiders tried to paint Trump with, implying Obama funded the G-O-F research AFTER he banned it, is BS.


When Trump found out what our government organizations and China were doing, he cut the funding and he cut funding to WHO.

http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/04/29/847948272/why-the-u-s-government-stopped-funding-a-research-project-on-bats-and-coronaviru (http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/04/29/847948272/why-the-u-s-government-stopped-funding-a-research-project-on-bats-and-coronaviru)

http://rumble.com/vgq0vt-theres-more-dr.-yan-says-fauci-funded-more-shady-labs-around-the-world-not-.html (http://rumble.com/vgq0vt-theres-more-dr.-yan-says-fauci-funded-more-shady-labs-around-the-world-not-.html)


Between Trump and Obama, who is capable of giving money to our advisaries in ways that people won't get suspicious?

Was Trump running the DOJ and FBI that hindered his administration and put his people in jail or was it somebody else?

Is the person running the DOJ and FBI potentially running other government organizations? Yes. There are conspiracies that say this pandemic was ordered by our people to affect the 2020 election.

Patrick Byrne has a BA from Dartmouth, Masters from Cambridge as a Marshal Scholar and a PhD from Stanford. He was national entrepreneur of the year and ex CEO of Overstock. He help bring down hundreds at Wall Street and slept with spies. As a citizen, he help the FBI thinking he was doing good for our country. At the FBI and Obama's request, he tempted Hillary with a bribe and she took it. He became jaded with our government when he found out they weren't going to arrest her but make her president. Obama dictated who was going to be president and he wanted someone compromised so he could control. Obama's people in the DOJ would make sure Hillary followed orders. Although Hillary didn't become President, do you think Obama gave up control?

There was a coup in our country. They created the greatest fraud organization in history and planned to use it in future elections. These are sinister people. They want to dismantle the Constitution. They are taking away free speech, guns, and even our votes. Give it a couple of months if you need more time to register all what has happened. Obama deserves praise for nothing. He's evil. You've bought into the fake news idea that Obama done some good.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on May 15, 2021, 04:54:57 AM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/MC_BurnBabyBurn_web20210514120000.jpg)
In protest, first you burned your bra in the 60's now you are burning your mask in 2021. 


What I'm seeing that I don't like is if you don't get vaccinated you are forced to wear a mask.  I just read that in Las Vegas that appears to be the policy going forward.  In addition, I was considering a trip to your favorite country (China), but if I'm not vaccinated, I must isolate for 14 days.  If I'm vaccinated I'm free to take care of business immediately and get the hell out of there.     Nobody is forcing me to get vaccinated, but I'm going to suffer consequences if I don't. 
Fathertime!

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on May 15, 2021, 08:01:28 AM
In protest, first you burned your bra in the 60's now you are burning your mask in 2021. 
Fathertime!

I hope the mask burners nose doesn't sag as bad as the bra burner tits. :shock:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on May 15, 2021, 08:14:52 AM
I hope the mask burners nose doesn't sag as bad as the bra burner tits. :shock:

Bra was not invented until 1889.

So what did those who were turned off by sagging breasts do back then ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 15, 2021, 02:48:21 PM

Up to 50% of CDC and FDA's employees are not taking the vaccine.

http://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1393281939508011012


See a few mask bikinis holding up breasts just fine.

http://www.google.com/search?q=mask+bikini&client=opera&hs=NwM&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjdlenSoszwAhVCnp4KHcW4CJQQ_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1880&bih=970#imgrc=seYcIfvRXEELVM
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on May 15, 2021, 03:50:00 PM
What I'm seeing that I don't like is if you don't get vaccinated you are forced to wear a mask.  I just read that in Las Vegas that appears to be the policy going forward.   
So in order to tell...vaccinated people must have stated acknowledgement tattooed on their foreheads?  (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/undecided.gif)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on May 15, 2021, 03:57:14 PM
Bra was not invented until 1889. So what did those who were turned off by sagging breasts do back then?


The old 'foundation' trick.
 
 (http://i.pinimg.com/originals/71/4c/4e/714c4ec3c283cef0c7366a0caca4e17e.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 16, 2021, 07:53:47 PM

Dr. Yeadon, ex VP of Pfizer, felt compelled to make a video about the dangers of the experimental vaccines, the vaccine passports to control us, and the lies told by our governments to get us to comply with their programs.

About 40% into the video, he says antibodies don't play a major role in defeating viruses and the government is lying to us when they say it does. T cells are what is important. 17 years after SARS, they took the blood of those who were infected to see if SARS could infect them again. SARS could not. They recently tried to see if SARS-COV2 which is 80% similar to SARS could infect those people who previously had SARS and those people were immune to SARS-COV2. This is the man that says the vaccination program could lead to depopulation if it makes our immune system dysfunctional. He said for the most part, our bodies will handle the virus and we'll be able to achieve immunity naturally. He also said that there's no reason for a booster shot because variants are only at a max .3% different than the original virus and more unproven vaccines can harm us.

He's against the vaccine passport that can limit where you go. 20 years from now you may not be able to go into a grocery store or allowed to go to your job if you miss your appointment to get a booster shot of whatever they say you need it for. The app on your phone will alert you the appropriate time you need to show up for your shot. Eventually it can be used by sinister people to easily execute the masses.

Are We Being Set Up for Mass Depopulation? (mercola.com) (http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2021/05/15/planet-lockdown.aspx?cid_medium=sms&cid=share)


Back in April 2018, Q warned of election rigging, mass extermination events that will decrease population threat level, and vaccines.

http://qalerts.app/?n=1010
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 17, 2021, 11:20:04 AM
When Trump found out what our government organizations and China were doing, he cut the funding and he cut funding to WHO.

http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/04/29/847948272/why-the-u-s-government-stopped-funding-a-research-project-on-bats-and-coronaviru (http://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2020/04/29/847948272/why-the-u-s-government-stopped-funding-a-research-project-on-bats-and-coronaviru)

http://rumble.com/vgq0vt-theres-more-dr.-yan-says-fauci-funded-more-shady-labs-around-the-world-not-.html (http://rumble.com/vgq0vt-theres-more-dr.-yan-says-fauci-funded-more-shady-labs-around-the-world-not-.html)

OY BillyB-

I'm not sure why you insist in doing these things. If you need to Google things at the least take the time to first understand what the subject or issue is.


Doing Diligence to Assess the Risks and Benefits of Life Sciences Gain-of-Function Research | whitehouse.gov (archives.gov) (http://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/blog/2014/10/17/doing-diligence-assess-risks-and-benefits-life-sciences-gain-function-research)


Rand Paul's exchange with Anthony Fauci is not whether or not the US funds, or give grants to, medical researches the world over on a yearly basis via DHH or NIH, or whatever else governing bodies need the funds for..

The exchange with Fauci is more specifically about, including what was SPECIFICALLY banned during the Obama Administration, was *GAIN OF FUNCTION* experiments. The then administration pause funding for this specific phase while they conducted a deliberative process to better determine of its viability and benefit - risk vs reward.

What is G-O-F?
http://www.news-medical.net/life-sciences/What-is-Gain-of-Function-Research.aspx (http://www.news-medical.net/life-sciences/What-is-Gain-of-Function-Research.aspx)
In short, the experiment is taking an existing virus, and in essence juice it up - make it even more more virulent and easier to transmit to human. The intentional was then to create a defense for such monstrosity ahead of time in the event such virus becomes a pandemic. Whether as a weapon or if it naturally evolved.

http://osp.od.nih.gov/biotechnology/gain-of-function-research/ (http://osp.od.nih.gov/biotechnology/gain-of-function-research/)

Then when the report (study) was completed ad finalized its recommendation mid 2016, additional funding was approved January 2017.


 US officials revisit rules for disclosing risky disease experiments (nature.com) (http://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-00210-5)

It has nothing whatsoever to do with any other ongoing researches which are perpetually getting grants and funds meritoriously. This would include the *collecting of bat sh!ts in bat caves, bat mobile and/or even in Robin's or Batwoman's buttholes* to gather information exactly how many variations of coronaviruses there are. So your article did little to change the subject matter.

But the specific reasoning behind Dr. Paul's verbal joust with Tony Fauci was because funds got through the Wuhan lab, where they conducted G-O-F and where the suspicion of lab leak *may have* happened, despite the funds being banned in 2014 for such a cause. The current investigation involves looking into *how* funds got to the lab anyway and apparently there are information that Fauci played a principal part in diverting the fund to the lab virtue 3rd-party handoff, or renaming G-O-F for the work-around.

Quote
Between Trump and Obama, who is capable of giving money to our advisaries in ways that people won't get suspicious?Was Trump running the DOJ and FBI that hindered his administration and put his people in jail or was it somebody else?Is the person running the DOJ and FBI potentially running other government organizations? Yes. There are conspiracies that say this pandemic was ordered by our people to affect the 2020 election.Patrick Byrne has a BA from Dartmouth, Masters from Cambridge as a Marshal Scholar and a PhD from Stanford. He was national entrepreneur of the year and ex CEO of Overstock. He help bring down hundreds at Wall Street and slept with spies. As a citizen, he help the FBI thinking he was doing good for our country. At the FBI and Obama's request, he tempted Hillary with a bribe and she took it. He became jaded with our government when he found out they weren't going to arrest her but make her president. Obama dictated who was going to be president and he wanted someone compromised so he could control. Obama's people in the DOJ would make sure Hillary followed orders. Although Hillary didn't become President, do you think Obama gave up control?There was a coup in our country. They created the greatest fraud organization in history and planned to use it in future elections. These are sinister people. They want to dismantle the Constitution. They are taking away free speech, guns, and even our votes. Give it a couple of months if you need more time to register all what has happened. Obama deserves praise for nothing. He's evil. You've bought into the fake news idea that Obama done some good.


I don't even know what any of the crap above have anything to do with the subject.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 17, 2021, 11:43:25 AM


Rand Paul's exchange with Anthony Fauci is not whether or not the US funds, or give grants to, medical researches the world over on a yearly basis via DHH or NIH, or whatever else governing bodies need the funds for..


The exchange with Fauci is more specifically about, including what was SPECIFICALLY banned during the Obama Administration, was *GAIN OF FUNCTION* experiments. The then administration pause funding for this specific phase while they conducted a deliberative process to better determine of its viability and benefit - risk vs reward.


GOF was never banned during the Obama administration. In 2014, it was suspended for 3 years and was to automatically resume in 2017. There was no need to get Trump's blessing for these experiments in 2017 because they would automatically get implemented. Although suspended in 2014, a few months later with government approval GOF resumed on 7 of the 18 GOF projects anyway. So much for the suspension/ban. We may have helped China create the virus in our bodies. Rand Paul is trying to figure it out without making direct accusations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gain_of_function_research


Fauci has gone Democrat. He says the Pandemic exposed the undeniable effects of racism in America.

http://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1394239138711449606


Eric Clapton temporarily lost ability to move after taking vaccine.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/05/hands-feet-frozen-numb-burning-eric-clapton-says-bad-reaction-astrazeneca-covid-jab-feared-never-play/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 17, 2021, 11:51:20 AM
GOF was never banned during the Obama administration. In 2014, it was suspended for 3 years and was to automatically resume in 2017. There was no need to get Trump's blessing for these experiments in 2017 because they would automatically get implemented. Although suspended in 2014, a few months later with government approval GOF resumed on 7 of the 18 GOF projects anyway. So much for the suspension/ban. We may have helped China create the virus in our bodies. Rand Paul is trying to figure it out without making direct accusations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gain_of_function_research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gain_of_function_research)



Banned, suspended, paused...potato/potatoe...He gives me wiki.

I'm done.

George Floyd died in the ambulance. 3 dissenting opinions. Whatever, I say.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 17, 2021, 05:24:45 PM



Concerned citizens group approaches Obama administration and says "Our tax dollars are funding the creation of dangerous bioweapons under the disguise of trying to find more powerful medicines. It's call GOF. These dangerous viruses and bacteria can be used against humanity. These programs can be abused."


Obama calls NIH and Fauci and says "I need to suspend the program which is highly controversial. I will order an investigation and a 3 year suspension. After the concerned citizens celebrate a win, go ahead and resume some of those programs before the suspension is lifted. Main thing is I need to show GQ and other concerned citizens I care so they'll spread the word I'm a good guy."

I don't think we know even half the evil Obama is capable of. I hope they keep digging into the origins and funding of the virus so the appropriate people can be held accountable but to get a good investigation we need to get rid of bad government which is going to happen soon.


Cuomo got paid 5.12 million for a book deal pertaining to his handling of the virus. He's one of five Democratic governors that put infected people into old folks homes which in turn greatly inflated COVID deaths early in the pandemic allowing state governments to change laws to increase mail in ballots.

Gov. Cuomo got $5M+ for COVID book despite nursing home deaths (nypost.com) (http://nypost.com/2021/05/17/gov-cuomo-got-5m-for-covid-book-despite-nursing-home-deaths/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on May 17, 2021, 09:44:36 PM
The latest-------
You no longer have to wear a mask unless you are going somewhere.
You still need to wear a mask if you are going to a masquerade ball.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 19, 2021, 11:20:03 AM



Chinese professor says China winning wars, including the biological one. He says Trump, the liberals, America and UK all failed. We know what he's teaching his students.


CCP Professor Claims China Defeated U.S. In ‘Biological War’… – Centipede Nation (http://centipedenation.com/first-column/ccp-professor-claims-china-defeated-u-s-in-biological-war/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 19, 2021, 01:36:24 PM
At the onset of this pandemic last year, and during it's insurgency, I remember doctors were reporting severe cases, and at times fatal, of people stricken with this virus. Most, if not all folks died not because of the virus itself per se, but because of how our immune system reacted in its fight against the infection.


The proverbial knowledge today about the benefit of the vaccines is, while it doesn't prevent you from getting infected by the virus, and even spreading it, but that it keeps you from suffering severely (and definitely no longer fatal) as it did before.


Does this mean then the vaccine suppresses your immune system to react to the virus so there is no danger of it over-reacting and damaging your cells much more than it would've?



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 19, 2021, 03:29:37 PM
At the onset of this pandemic last year, and during it's insurgency, I remember doctors were reporting severe cases, and at times fatal, of people stricken with this virus. Most, if not all folks died not because of the virus itself per se, but because of how our immune system reacted in its fight against the infection.

Infection from exposure to the SARS-CoV-2 virus starts in the nasal passages, and in many people it stays there.  These people may even be asymptomatic.  The severe cases of infection result upon the virus reaching the lungs. and the infected person can die of respiratory failure.  The body's immune system indeed combats COVID in the lungs, and in many people the system becomes hyperactive, creating a "cytokine storm."  The reaction if not reversed if attributed to many COVID deaths. 

Why one person dies and the other survives?  Mechanisms, causative agents, etc.  are under study. The reasons are not a "rub of the green" concept (random luck).  All we seem to know now is that comorbidities and age have much to do with whether an infected person survives. 


Quote
The proverbial knowledge today about the benefit of the vaccines is, while it doesn't prevent you from getting infected by the virus, and even spreading it, but that it keeps you from suffering severely (and definitely no longer fatal) as it did before.

Yes, one can still be infected after being fully vaccinated.  Yet the vaccine has taught our body how better to fight it.   


Quote
Does this mean then the vaccine suppresses your immune system to react to the virus so there is no danger of it over-reacting and damaging your cells much more than it would've?

To the contrary, our immune system is not suppressed.  It has merely been instructed to develop finely-tuned antibodies against the spikes on the COVID virus.    This capacity develops as follows:

1.  The messenger vaccine (mRNA) causes body cells (around the injection site) to produce on their surface just the protein "spikes" found on the COVID virus.

2.  The body's immune system recognizes these fake spikes as foreign and begins attacking them with antibodies.   

3.  The antibodies build up, so if you are exposed to COVID and become infected, the antibodies immediately attack the spikes on the COVID virus, seemingly preventing it from attaching to cells and eventually reaching the lungs. 

4.  I understand the  immune system of a vaccinated perosn is able to produce more antibodies, although I am not sure. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 19, 2021, 04:31:15 PM
Thanks for that fairly comprehensive response, Gator.


This particular messenger vaccine is the very first vaccine administered in this scale. From what I understand the principal reason it was approved for release and administration was, aside from the obvious urgency, for no other reason than it was easy to produce in this massive scale. IMO, that's not very comforting to know.


If it was because it was easy....


The reported effectiveness is impressive to say the least...over 90%. I just don't like it when the qualifier shows up every time the subject comes up - the hang words, 'so far'.


Also, how did they determined this when we don't even know exactly how many were asymptomatic? Did they vaccinated x amount of persons that tested negative of the virus, then after administering the program, exposed them to COVID-19 and waited for the resulting effect? If so, how did they eliminated the possibility that those persons could have been people that would've otherwise been in the potential 'asymptomatic' group anyway since they seem to be the overwhelming majority?


Don't mind me, I'm just projecting my thoughts trying to make logic in my still pending decision to whether or not I march with the increasing herd. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 19, 2021, 05:56:22 PM

Also, how did they determined this when we don't even know exactly how many were asymptomatic? Did they vaccinated x amount of persons that tested negative of the virus, then after administering the program, exposed them to COVID-19 and waited for the resulting effect? If so, how did they eliminated the possibility that those persons could have been people that would've otherwise been in the potential 'asymptomatic' group anyway since they seem to be the overwhelming majority?


Don't mind me, I'm just projecting my thoughts trying to make logic in my still pending decision to whether or not I march with the increasing herd.

Quite valid question GQ.  IIRC applicants for the trial were screened to determine if they had covid prior, using antibody tests that should detect even asymptomatic cases.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/why-i-decided-to-be-a-coronavirus-vaccine-test-subject

I got my first BioNTech/Pfizer shot the other day, bit of a sore arm and a bit of chills were the only aftereffects of note.  Although this technology is new, it has been studied for a fair amount of time and it predates COVID.  All boils down to trust, and yes I believe the risks are far lower than my chances with COVID.  Fortunately, those with a hesitation to this newer RNA based vaccine have the alternative of more traditional vaccines.  My wife and son will be going to RU next month and will likely get the Sputnik V vaccine as their age group has not come up yet here.  It was widely used in San Marino and efficacy is reported to be 100% so far.  I expect EU will authorize it in short order.

http://www.reuters.com/world/europe/san-marino-offer-tourists-russias-sputnik-v-covid-19-vaccine-2021-05-12/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 19, 2021, 06:40:15 PM

Don't mind me, I'm just projecting my thoughts trying to make logic in my still pending decision to whether or not I march with the increasing herd.


And you should scrutinize everything regarding efficacy and safety.   

First, safety.  Rather than focus on side effects as manifested in the clinical trials and 100 million now vaccinated, consider these two scientific facts.

       1,  After a couple of days following vaccination,  none of the vaccine constituents are detectable in the body.  The body has metabolized or otherwise assimilated them. 

       2.  Most important, the mRNA vaccine does not enter the nucleus of your cells.  The nucleus is where almost all of your DNA is located.  In other words, imRNA does not attach to your DNA or otherwise change it.   

The efficacy among the 100 million (=/-) fully vaccinated recipients is mirroring the outstanding results reported in the clinical trials.  Hence, the relaxation of mask rules, etc. 

The sudden change in mask policy gave me cause to question our sciencific policy makers.  The CDC screwed this up over a year ago by not being prepared to make laboratory tests.  Then we had erroneous messages about wearing gloves, sanitizing surfaces, etc.  Many governors implemented stringent lockdown procedures and a couple placed the most vulnerable population (the elderly) in jeopardy. 

In essence we did not know jack shit.   Looking back, the Trump policies of balancing health precautions with saving the economy were the proper course.  And through it all the Democrat leaders and the media blamed Trump for the pandemic and deaths.  The future will show the Democrats overhyped the crisis, and for sure are fiscally irresponsible in the process of dealing with it.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: 2tallbill on May 20, 2021, 05:54:44 AM


Pompeo calls on China to release evidence disproving Wuhan lab leak theory
Pompeo says Wuhan lab leak 'covered up just like Chernobyl'
http://www.foxnews.com/media/pompeo-china-evidence-wuhan-lab-leak-covid


Experts weigh in on the Wuhan lab leak hypothesis
http://www.politico.com/newsletters/politico-nightly/2021/05/19/experts-weigh-in-on-the-wuhan-lab-leak-hypothesis-492915


WHO Director-General's remarks at the Member State Briefing on the report of the
international team studying the origins of SARS-CoV-2

http://www.who.int/director-general/speeches/detail/who-director-general-s-remarks-at-the-member-state-briefing-on-the-report-of-the-international-team-studying-the-origins-of-sars-cov-2


Investigate the origins of COVID-19
http://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6543/694.1
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on May 20, 2021, 06:46:48 AM

Pompeo calls on China to release evidence disproving Wuhan lab leak theory
Pompeo says Wuhan lab leak 'covered up just like Chernobyl'
http://www.foxnews.com/media/pompeo-china-evidence-wuhan-lab-leak-covid

 
Pompeo, a has been, with zero credibility nationally, or internationally.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 20, 2021, 09:08:09 AM
Pompeo calls on China to release evidence disproving Wuhan lab leak theory



Read an article where they destroyed documents including funding and assistance that came from America.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 20, 2021, 09:36:13 AM



Doctors suing government. They want to prevent kids from getting experimental vaccines. Kids have almost zero chance of dying from COVID and the biological agents in vaccines may cause them more harm than the virus.


America's Frontline Doctors files motion for temporary restraining order against use of COVID vaccine in children - Frontline News (americasfrontlinedoctors.org) (http://www.americasfrontlinedoctors.org/frontline-news/americas-frontline-doctors-files-motion-for-temporary-restraining-order-against-use-of-covid-vaccine-in-children)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 20, 2021, 09:59:46 AM



French Virologist and Nobel Peace Prize winner said vaccinating during a pandemic is a mistake and history will show it. Says the we are creating more dangerous variants. Kind of reminds me of the doom and gloom for humanity the ex VP of Pfizer, and ex senior project manager for epidemics at the Gates foundation were saying. I sincerely hope they are wrong this time but what they are claiming can happen.

http://brandnewtube.com/watch/shocking-claims-by-luc-montagnier-nobel-prize-laureate_5eYUr3n662YSx65.html (http://brandnewtube.com/watch/shocking-claims-by-luc-montagnier-nobel-prize-laureate_5eYUr3n662YSx65.html)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 20, 2021, 10:01:41 AM
Pompeo, a has been, with zero credibility nationally, or internationally.


OY!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxr6mLG8uzA
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 20, 2021, 03:12:47 PM

OY!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxr6mLG8uzA

Good piece GQ!

Three stories:

1.  Evidence is mounting that the pandemic resulted from China's negligence in operating its Wuhan Lab.

2.  Dr. Fauci and the scientific community did not disclose conflicts of interest, and worse, may have covered up evidence. 

3.  And the BIG STORY - uncovering another example of mainstream news media failing to do its job because of bias against the right. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Gator on May 20, 2021, 03:17:27 PM
Thanks for that fairly comprehensive response, Gator.


Actually not comprehensive because I did not mention the role of T-cells, etc.   I did not mention these esoteric subjects because if I don't understand something, I try not to pass it on.

All we need to know is the world has vaccines and they work. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on May 20, 2021, 04:53:16 PM
Apparently black fungus is the latest thing to result out of the Coronavirus mutation in India:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-57191507.amp

Sounds and no doubt looks nasty, hope we don't get it over here, apparently use of steroids to treat serious virus cases looks like it may be causing a fair bit of it but still early days I guess to know all the ins & outs.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 20, 2021, 09:10:04 PM
3.  And the BIG STORY - uncovering another example of mainstream news media failing to do its job because of bias against the right.
 


We have not witnessed media bias the last 5 years. They have changed. The media is part of a sinister plot.


I've been saying the virus was made in a lab last year and shown expert testimony. The virus has not been found in an animal or even meat. China, WHO, the left, most scientists reviewing China approved documents pertaining to the origins of the virus and the media all agreed there's no way the virus can be created in a lab. They would not budge from that or even agree the virus may have been created in a lab. What was Fauci's position? He was silent.


 Why so many countries, health organizations, media  and scientists push that lie? It's mind boggling that so many people will lie like that. It's mind boggling how many of them want to cover up election fraud too. They want to use propaganda so we don't know the truth about anything that goes on around us. What's their goal? I don't think they have good intentions.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 21, 2021, 09:26:41 AM



Fact checking site removes their report that said virus leaked from Wuhan lab is a debunked conspiracy. Polls, fact checking sites and mainstream media hasn't had our best interest in years. They promote fake news. The more we learn about the virus and it's origins, the better prepared we could be but they don't care about truth. The people of the world keeps getting lied to.




PolitiFact removes 2020 report stating theory that COVID leaked for Wuhan lab 'debunked conspiracy' | Just The News (http://justthenews.com/accountability/media/politifact-quietly-retracts-fact-check-calling-covid-19-lab-origin-debunked?utm_source=justthenews.com&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=external-news-aggregators)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on May 21, 2021, 06:47:26 PM
There’s people on community boards who are saying, “Oh, it’s no big deal, it’s only 0.4 percent of the population who dies.” But if that’s you, that kind of matters, right? Or if it’s your husband or if it’s your mother. Numbers don’t mean anything when it’s real, and this is real.

http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/05/why-some-vaccinated-people-wont-listen-to-the-cdc-on-masks.html

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 21, 2021, 11:07:36 PM



There are people like myself that factored age and health and figured we have an excellent chance of survival if we got the virus so we wait for more safety testing to be done on the current vaccines. I am not anti vaccine.


There is a movement that is becoming anti vaccine. As more evidence America sent money to the Wuhan lab and China destroyed those documents, people suspect our country funded the creation of COVID and they suspect it was released on purpose to affect an election without care of killing people and damaging our economy. If true our government did that, then they are sinister so why would anybody trust the government that created a virus to hurt us when they tell us to take a vaccine for it?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 21, 2021, 11:37:33 PM

Fact checking site removes their report that said virus leaked from Wuhan lab is a debunked conspiracy. Polls, fact checking sites and mainstream media hasn't had our best interest in years. They promote fake news. The more we learn about the virus and it's origins, the better prepared we could be but they don't care about truth. The people of the world keeps getting lied to.


It is listed in their http://www.politifact.com/corrections-and-updates/ section.  "Currently, we consider the claim to be unsupported by evidence and in dispute."

http://www.politifact.com/li-meng-yan-fact-check/

Scientific consensus regarding this topic has not changed.  Fact checker and news media sites usually have a corrections and retraction sections.  An example of such including apology, not intended to change the topic:

http://www.newsmax.com/newsfront/eric-coomer-dominion-voting-systems/2021/04/30/id/1019671/

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 22, 2021, 12:42:22 AM


100 years from now, the experts may look back to this time and wonder why we were so stupid due to fear and panic to be injecting experimental vaccines into our and our children's bodies. They will be puzzled that the previous strategy against prior pandemics never called for vaccinating everybody in the world and certainly not vaccinating strong people with healthy immune systems. The previous strategies worked! Why a drastic change in game plan against COVID? Future medical scientists may work on a solution to fix their compromised immune systems they inherited from us. We simply won't know the results of injecting experimental vaccines into the masses until years from now.

Here's a doctor that is warning the university that his daughter is going to. It is a religious based university that is mandating all students to get vaccinated.

http://rumble.com/vhe88b-what-is-in-the-covid-19-vaccines-with-doctor-jim-meehan.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 22, 2021, 01:12:47 AM
BillyB,

your ability to predict the future weeks and months in advance has failed you over and over.  Why should anyone give this one, 100 years out any weight at all.  It is much more probable that in 20 years vaccines of similar types will be given to fight and prevent cancer and more.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Maxx2 on May 22, 2021, 04:36:08 AM
Oregon says get vaccinated and have proof or you can't enter workplaces, business and churches without wearing a mask.


The Left is so totalitarian.



http://www.theepochtimes.com/mkt_morningbrief/oregon-first-state-to-require-vaccination-proof-for-maskless-entry-into-businesses-workplaces-and-churches_3825230.html?utm_source=morningbriefnoe&utm_medium=email2&utm_campaign=mb-2021-05-22&mktids=6edf554df7ba65a4613234a901da7ceb&est=zSLDC%2F2nxdl7DaO2FlcW8%2FIb%2F%2FROfr%2Fbqyi15PJnyI%2BpzilrCzNog7atUJQLlKmo (http://www.theepochtimes.com/mkt_morningbrief/oregon-first-state-to-require-vaccination-proof-for-maskless-entry-into-businesses-workplaces-and-churches_3825230.html?utm_source=morningbriefnoe&utm_medium=email2&utm_campaign=mb-2021-05-22&mktids=6edf554df7ba65a4613234a901da7ceb&est=zSLDC%2F2nxdl7DaO2FlcW8%2FIb%2F%2FROfr%2Fbqyi15PJnyI%2BpzilrCzNog7atUJQLlKmo)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 22, 2021, 06:07:16 AM
Many cities in Germany also require rapid tests within the last 24 hours to enter stores, restaurants etc.  Tests are free, available near shopping and other public areas.  For those that don't have the patience to wait in line a bit, appointments can be scheduled online, results emailed to you in 15 mins.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 22, 2021, 06:35:08 AM
In Italy, it'll be masks in public places for another month or so.  Curfews and freedom of movement are being extended and folks preparing for tourist season, with numbers promising for a normal tourist season.  Also those fully vaccinated should be able to get their 'green pass' next month for EU/international travel.  Won't be a requirement though.  Those not vaccinated can use covid tests for crossing borders and such.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 22, 2021, 09:08:33 AM
BillyB,

your ability to predict the future weeks and months in advance has failed you over and over.  Why should anyone give this one, 100 years out any weight at all.  It is much more probable that in 20 years vaccines of similar types will be given to fight and prevent cancer and more.


It's comforting to know that experimental vaccines that do not have government approval to use on humans have your stamp of approval. Your family's next experimental vaccine shot is coming out in a few months. Keep injecting.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 22, 2021, 09:59:57 AM
It is government approved here BillyB, nothing experimental at all. All phases of trials were completed prior to allowing commercial manufacture, distribution and use.  A decade of research and studies of mRNA vaccines is the backbone.  COVID-19 is a mere tweak.

New, for sure but every product is at one time or another new.  Every year new flu shot combinations come out and you didn't raise a fuss.

You have a choice of other proven vaccine alternatives, or to use none at all.  No no need to complain about others getting it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 22, 2021, 10:23:32 AM
All phases of trials were completed prior to allowing commercial manufacture, distribution and use.



Where did you get your information from? I put out vaccine manufacture and FDA documents. There are tests that are ongoing and aren't concluded. There are safety tests that take years to conclude when making new vaccines and medicines. Have years passed by? By the time this vaccine has been fully tested, there won't be a need for it because they will be giving you and your family another newly designed experimental vaccine for the variants. It'll be a cycle without an end.


Also, no government approved the vaccine for use on humans. They gave emergency use authorization. I understand people 80 yo and up have a much higher chance of dying from COVID so they need an emergency vaccine. Kids and young adults are not in danger and there is no emergency for them. Prior to COVID, it would be a crime to give healthy people experimental vaccines. Now it's legalized.


With treatments using existing medicines proven safe available, there isn't a need for vaccines on healthy people who have almost no chance in dying from COVID.


I understand many people feel that if everybody takes the vaccine, we can slow the spread and slow the mutations of the virus. Listen to what the French Nobel Peace Prize virologist said. With everybody taking a vaccine, the current virus will learn to beat it by mutating. Vaccines don't kill viruses instantly. They only elevate our immune system. So the virus can infect a vaccinated person and like the Frenchman said, the virus can learn to beat it by mutating.


Most people has an immune system that can beat the virus and then creating some level of immunity for the future. Our immune systems do what the vaccine does but naturally. In past epidemics and pandemics, the best scientific minds did not conclude everybody in the world needed to be vaccinated. We are trying something new with new experimental vaccines. Alarming because it could be disastrous for humanity if they're wrong. Maybe there is only a 5% chance they are wrong but if they are wrong, it will lead to massive depopulation. It's a gamble and we are gambling with lives.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 22, 2021, 11:23:19 AM

Where did you get your information from? I put out vaccine manufacture and FDA documents. There are tests that are ongoing and aren't concluded. There are safety tests that take years to conclude when making new vaccines and medicines. Have years passed by? By the time this vaccine has been fully tested, there won't be a need for it because they will be giving you and your family another newly designed experimental vaccine for the variants. It'll be a cycle without an end.

Your reading and comprehension skills need some tuning BillyB.  Hint:

Quote
It is government approved here BillyB

Quote
Also, no government approved the vaccine for use on humans. They gave emergency use authorization. I understand people 80 yo and up have a much higher chance of dying from COVID so they need an emergency vaccine. Kids and young adults are not in danger and there is no emergency for them. Prior to COVID, it would be a crime to give healthy people experimental vaccines. Now it's legalized.

Wrong.

http://www.epicentro.iss.it/vaccini/covid-19-sviluppo-valutazione-approvazione

Quote
A conditional authorization is not an emergency use authorization, which some countries use (for example, the United States or the United Kingdom) to allow the temporary use of an unauthorized medicine in emergency situations. An emergency authorization is not in fact an authorization for the marketing of the product.

A conditional authorization, on the other hand, represents in all respects a formal authorization: in the case of vaccines against COVID-19, it concerns the batches produced for the EU and is the most appropriate tool to guarantee access to a vaccine for all European citizens simultaneously and support mass vaccination campaigns.


Quote
With treatments using existing medicines proven safe available, there isn't a need for vaccines on healthy people who have almost no chance in dying from COVID.

You'll change your mind quickly when they tell you goodnight and shove a tube down your throat.


Quote
I understand many people feel that if everybody takes the vaccine, we can slow the spread and slow the mutations of the virus. Listen to what the French Nobel Peace Prize virologist said. With everybody taking a vaccine, the current virus will learn to beat it by mutating. Vaccines don't kill viruses instantly. They only elevate our immune system. So the virus can infect a vaccinated person and like the Frenchman said, the virus can learn to beat it by mutating.

Like everyone, even Nobel Laureates jointly sharing a prize in Physiology or Medicine with others (not Peace Prize BTW), are entitled to their opinions. You seem to enjoy picking out the opinions of the few that believe in the man-made coronavirus laboratory theory rather than overall consensus of scientists that are actively studying and developing mRNA vaccines for this type of virus. Your new pal seems strangely similar to your Pulitzer friend.  Controversial, unproven theories and patent disputes.   

Quote
Most people has an immune system that can beat the virus and then creating some level of immunity for the future. Our immune systems do what the vaccine does but naturally. In past epidemics and pandemics, the best scientific minds did not conclude everybody in the world needed to be vaccinated. We are trying something new with new experimental vaccines. Alarming because it could be disastrous for humanity if they're wrong. Maybe there is only a 5% chance they are wrong but if they are wrong, it will lead to massive depopulation. It's a gamble and we are gambling with lives.

Is that your opinion, or submission of facts?  If the former, I'll ignore, if the latter, I may respond with a rebuttal.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 22, 2021, 11:40:27 AM

http://www.epicentro.iss.it/vaccini/covid-19-sviluppo-valutazione-approvazione (http://www.epicentro.iss.it/vaccini/covid-19-sviluppo-valutazione-approvazione)



Your government gave it 'conditional' marketing authorization. It's not fully approved. Read you link. I translated it. The first sentence in the link said vaccine development takes 7-10 years. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that current COVID vaccines have not been through all the safety tests because 7-10 years have not passed.


Safety of vaccines aren't the main concerns of the 3 experts I talked about upthread. They talk about substituting our healthy immune systems for vaccines will weaken our natural defenses...permanently which can lead to mass deaths. Think using steroids for years instead of allowing your body to produce hormones naturally and later your body fails to produce male hormones so you grow tits. Also vaccinating healthy people will allow the virus to learn how to beat vaccines and become more powerful.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 22, 2021, 11:49:14 AM

Your government gave it 'conditional' marketing authorization. It's not fully approved. Read you link. I translated it. The first sentence in the link said vaccine development takes 7-10 years. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to understand that current COVID vaccines have not been through all the safety tests because 7-10 years have not passed.

8th grade reading comprehension.  Try again:

Quote
A conditional authorization is not an emergency use authorization, which some countries use (for example, the United States or the United Kingdom) to allow the temporary use of an unauthorized medicine in emergency situations. An emergency authorization is not in fact an authorization for the marketing of the product.

A conditional authorization, on the other hand, represents in all respects a formal authorization: in the case of vaccines against COVID-19, it concerns the batches produced for the EU and is the most appropriate tool to guarantee access to a vaccine for all European citizens simultaneously and support mass vaccination campaigns.


Quote
Safety of vaccines aren't the main concerns of the 3 experts I talked about upthread. They talk about substituting our healthy immune systems for vaccines will weaken our natural defenses...permanently which can lead to mass deaths. Think using steroids for years instead of allowing your body to produce hormones naturally and later your body fails to produce male hormones so you grow tits. Also vaccinating healthy people will allow the virus to learn how to beat vaccines and become more powerful.

History does not support your, or their hypothesis.  Are we plagued with smallpox today?  Was after all our first vaccine.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 22, 2021, 11:55:48 AM



Do you know what 'conditional' means? Nowhere in your link does it say your government concluded the vaccine satisfied every safety test on humans. There's an ongoing test on the entire population right now! Who knows what we will discover in 7-10 years?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 22, 2021, 12:10:33 PM
It is defined unequivocally BillyB.  For the third and last time:

A conditional authorization represents in all respects a formal authorization
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 22, 2021, 12:22:13 PM
It is defined unequivocally BillyB.  For the third and last time:

A conditional authorization represents in all respects a formal authorization


You conveniently left out The conditional authorization is in fact based on less complete data than those required for a “normal” approval and marketing procedure.[/size]
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 23, 2021, 12:53:28 AM
Nothing 'convenient' nor omitted.  You were given the link to the full text.

Your assertion:   "no government approved the vaccine for use on humans."

So now you want to try and move imaginary goalposts to cover your fallacious statements?

The definition of 'conditional' means annual reports are required to maintain authorized status for the production, distribution and commercial use.

Again, from the article: 
Quote
A conditional authorization is not an emergency use authorization, which some countries use (for example, the United States or the United Kingdom) to allow the temporary use of an unauthorized medicine in emergency situations.

Once more, you err.  Do the homework so you fully comprehend the context and build a better understanding of what is really going on.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 23, 2021, 10:32:15 AM



BC, are you allowed to sue the government and big pharma if you discover next year your immune system is now weaken which significantly increases your chance of death on the next wave of coronavirus variants? Are your daughters allowed to sue if they learn they can't have children or they can have children but they will have birth defects? Reproductive toxicity studies haven't been concluded. Even those who volunteered to be test subjects in the development of mRNA vaccines were told to not have unprotected sex for at least 30 days after their shot. Read the manual I posted upthread. They just do not know yet exactly what it will do our reproductive systems. It's irresponsible for our government to issue experimental vaccines for fully healthy young adults and kids. SARS which came out in 2003 had vaccines development and still after all this time, no vaccine was approved for use. SARS is more deadly than the current virus yet our best scientific medic minds back then did not have a vaccinate everybody in the world policy. They were able to beat SARS with other methods.

http://www.who.int/health-topics/severe-acute-respiratory-syndrome#tab=tab_3 (http://www.who.int/health-topics/severe-acute-respiratory-syndrome#tab=tab_3)


Senator Rand Paul who is trying to learn if America funded the creation of the virus said he has not been presented evidence yet that vaccines are better than our own natural immune systems.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on May 23, 2021, 01:07:42 PM
BillyB,

Governments have granted immunity to pharma for vaccines in general, not just for COVID 19 vaccines.  In fact, this is in the contracts governments signed off on when purchasing the vaccine.

Here, when getting the vaccine:

1. you make an appointment.  At that time you are given a questionnaire regarding your health conditions and advised of any possible adverse reactions.  Both contain specific questions and information for women, including pregnancy, breast feeding etc.

2. you go to the appointment and wait to be called to speak with a doctor regarding the information you provided and can ask questions and get explanations.  The doctor then selects the vaccine that best fits your conditions and availability.  Women who are pregnant or plan to get pregnant in the near future of course have the decision whether to vaccinate or not.  Neither the doctors nor government recommend these women take the vaccine and leave it as an individual choice.  Vaccine for young kids and infants is not approved at this time. While I was waiting, everyone was given as much time as they needed to discuss their situation with the doctor.  4-5 minutes was typical.  Maybe someone who got vaccinated in the US can give details how it is handled there. 

3. if there are any adverse effects or other health consequences, the healthcare social security and unemployment systems provide needed support for the person vaccinated or survivors at no additional cost.  I don't know how such is handled in the US, but seems there may be some issues. http://fortune.com/2021/05/03/us-covid-vaccine-side-effects-getting-medical-costs-covered/  and more here http://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

As for SARS vaccines, a large number are approved including mRNA types from the same folks that now produce vaccine for COVID19. This is why most were able to quickly tweak for it and provided a basis for quicker emergency authorizations and approvals.

(http://i.postimg.cc/ydBVCy6H/Screen-Shot-2021-05-23-at-22-01-15.png)
http://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2777059

Do read the information at the link above.  You'll find it interesting.

As for Rand Paul, well, he is entitled to his opinion.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 23, 2021, 02:18:51 PM
BillyB,

Governments have granted immunity to pharma for vaccines in general, not just for COVID 19 vaccines.



Let's have government remove the immunity big pharma gets and lets watch if big pharma continues to push their vaccines as safe. Big protest in Italy. No masks and no social distancing. People are tired of this virus being blown out of proportion and government control. Last year I was all for being overcautious about a new virus showing up. We've learned about it enough to understand we don't have to be afraid as much anymore and we don't need the government controls.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YasjXGw857A
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 24, 2021, 10:50:28 AM
Good piece GQ!

Three stories:

1.  Evidence is mounting that the pandemic resulted from China's negligence in operating its Wuhan Lab.

2.  Dr. Fauci and the scientific community did not disclose conflicts of interest, and worse, may have covered up evidence. 

3.  And the BIG STORY - uncovering another example of mainstream news media failing to do its job because of bias against the right.


I remember just prior to the onset of this pandemic and Fauci went in front of Congress to testify the readiness of the US to handle any type of threat brought upon by a viral epidemic; to which he had said the US is not ready for one due to the inadequacies of supplies.


This idiot knew all along what happened in China as it is now coming to fruition he was a major player in the *gain of function* experiments going on in Wuhan. He feverishly denied the existence of the lab work, and allowed the media frenzy to make the assertion that it came from the Wuhan lab as some silly *Trump* derangement fantasy material, and obscure the facts. All the way to this mythical *Asian Hate* crime events in the US, to the ridiculous point the Democrat had to pass a law to allegedly prosecute Asian Hate crime transgressions..

Now Fauci and everyone is starting to walk back their initial denials, as factual information are starting to unravel and come forth.


http://www.wsj.com/articles/wuhan-lab-leak-question-chinese-mine-covid-pandemic-11621871125 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/wuhan-lab-leak-question-chinese-mine-covid-pandemic-11621871125)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanponciano/2021/05/23/report-wuhan-lab-staff-hospitalized-covid-19-symptoms-virus-origins/?sh=6ba1582f4bd9 (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonathanponciano/2021/05/23/report-wuhan-lab-staff-hospitalized-covid-19-symptoms-virus-origins/?sh=6ba1582f4bd9)

http://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/555057-fauci-bombshell-not-convinced-covid-19-developed (http://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/555057-fauci-bombshell-not-convinced-covid-19-developed)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZniDsuCX5g
Trump & Pompeo had been right, it seems, all along...tragic that US partisan politics prevailed over the health and safety of the American people...and even the world.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 24, 2021, 11:40:32 AM
Last Friday, after wifey drove to my office to have lunch, I decided to lock up and go along with her to get her second pfizer shot. I rode along for a couple of reasons. One of course, wanted to make sure everything stays fine with wifey after getting the second dose. Secondly, curiosity always gets the better of me.

I shot a few pictures and video of her actually getting the jab.

a) The entire experience was a drive-through event. Very organized, to the point after getting the vaccine they stick a blue tape on the windshield signifying a time that constitute a 15-minute lag after the injection. She was ushered to move forward and one-by-one each car was waved off when their 15-minute marker expires.

b) The 15-minute apparently is the period when 'rare' side effects happen/s, i.e. anxiety attacks, fainting, or any other serious side effects.

c) All the personnel working on this event are black Americans. The area is predominantly 'white'. They were very courteous, polite, efficient and showed a very calming presence all throughout.

d) Vaccine card was given to the folks, and wifey decided to keep hers as proof / 'souvenir'.

Wifey felt 'tired' for the next 2 days and soreness on the side of injection. Didn't have any fever, headaches, etc...which are supposedly a common  post-vaccine reaction.

So today CDC reports there's an ongoing investigation of younger folks experiencing (suffering) of *mild* heart inflammation after the vaccine.   >:(  Have my fingers crossed!!!


http://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/555031-cdc-is-investigating-reports-of-mild-heart
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 24, 2021, 11:58:05 AM
There's a segment in this video that I will caution taking with a grain of salt. The part about militarization of COVID experiments. Watching the video, I can't help but wonder if any of these guys work as a part-time (800) customer service for one of the US's merchants. They sound like one of the guys I spoke with over the weekend about my magicjack service.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EyxQfcbu3EI


It's really gotten to be a very small world indeedy!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 24, 2021, 12:58:44 PM



The drive thru vaccinations may be the norm like emissions testing. Provides jobs and keeps the air and body clean.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on May 24, 2021, 05:49:37 PM
The Covid test wife just took before her trip to Ukraine was the drive thru type.

It was at Walgreens Pharmacy and no one even came to the car.

Just went to drive thru lane like picking up a prescription.

Talked via mics, the little door slid open with a sealed nose swab in the tray.

Told wife to swab both nostrils, then put swab back into the container, seal it, and we put back in the tray and returned via the little door.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 24, 2021, 08:19:42 PM



Couple of Facebook employees came out and said Facebook has an algorithm that suppresses speech if your posts are against vaccines. Those promoting vaccines get a higher score which distributes their posts more. They say Facebook doesn't want a society of free speech. They want a society that complies with the narrative. They suppressed people posts who talked good about Trump and bad about the election so it doesn't surprise me big tech will suppress other issues if it doesn't fit the narrative. They want us to be stupid sheeple. They're scared we can think freely and educate each other properly.




Facebook Whistleblowers LEAK DOCS Detailing Effort to Secretly Censor Vax Concerns on Global Scale - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Requt9zXN04)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on May 25, 2021, 12:07:53 PM
The media is back peddling on the lab issue. At one time in the past [we may remember] it was considered a conspiracy theory---_______________________________________________________________________(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/mrz052521dAPR20210525054536.jpg)
Quote
When Nicholson Baker wrote a cover story for New York laying out the evidence that COVID-19 may have originated in a lab (http://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/coronavirus-lab-escape-theory.html) in Wuhan, China, the hypothesis was still highly controversial. In the months that have followed, and especially over the last week, it’s gained more and more credibility. A week ago, 18 prominent scientists signed a letter (http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/05/covid-lab-leak-hypothesis-just-got-a-big-credibility-boost.html) published in Science calling for an open investigation into the virus’s origins. This weekend, the Wall Street Journal reported (http://www.wsj.com/articles/intelligence-on-sick-staff-at-wuhan-lab-fuels-debate-on-covid-19-origin-11621796228) that U.S. intelligence believes three researchers at the Wuhan Institute of Virology became sick enough in November 2019 to require hospitalization, lending even more credence to the possibility of a lab leak (http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/05/covid-lab-leak-hypothesis-just-got-a-big-credibility-boost.html).
The hypothesis is far from proven. But this account of the virus’s origins is highly plausible, and at least as well-grounded as the original story of an infection that naturally leapt from a bat to a person.
http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/05/lab-leak-liberal-media-theory-china-wuhan-lab-cotton-trump.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 25, 2021, 01:49:56 PM
The media is back peddling on the lab issue. At one time in the past [we may remember] it was considered a conspiracy theory---_______________________________________________________________________


Somebody posted a recent CNN video showing CNN personnel blaming Trump for not revealing that the virus came from a lab citing he didn't provide evidence. Lol. MSM hammered Trump and Pompeo last year for revealing the virus came from a lab. Pompeo said Fauci had the same info he did and Fauci dismissed the lab theory last year and Fauci said China is being transparent.


http://www.breitbart.com/clips/2021/05/24/pompeo-fauci-had-the-same-information-i-had-when-he-dismissed-lab-leak-theory/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+breitbart+%28Breitbart+News%29 (http://www.breitbart.com/clips/2021/05/24/pompeo-fauci-had-the-same-information-i-had-when-he-dismissed-lab-leak-theory/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+breitbart+%28Breitbart+News%29)



Wuhan lab staff was sick Nov 2019.  My uncle who was touring China on a train said his train was forbidden to go into Wuhan Nov 15th. They had to go around the city.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/intelligence-on-sick-staff-at-wuhan-lab-fuels-debate-on-covid-19-origin-11621796228 (http://www.wsj.com/articles/intelligence-on-sick-staff-at-wuhan-lab-fuels-debate-on-covid-19-origin-11621796228)


Tucker Carson said Thai intelligence warned Fauci of a biological anomaly in Wuhan Nov 2019. I'd post the video but it disappeared. Lots of the Youtube videos I post on the virus and election fraud disappear.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 25, 2021, 02:04:42 PM
The media is back peddling on the lab issue. At one time in the past [we may remember] it was considered a conspiracy theory---


Sheeple numero Uno Jen Psaki was asked if the Biden administration deemed this matter serious enough to dive deeper into the real origin of COVID-19, to which she answered they're taking this VERY seriously and had once again repeatedly their request to WHO to probe deeper into the matter and send another team of delegates into China and into Wuhan...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYwlRSz-Mw0


LMAO!!! If the Biden Admin. is serious about this matter, they'd do it themselves and not rely on WHO, that is already known to be a snuggle bear to China. That's for starters. Secondly, it would be sooo much easier to get the money trail of US funds got Wuhan for g-o-f experiments when it was already banned, halted, suspended, paused, levied moratorium, etc. in 2014; or whatever else BillyB wanna call it.


All they would have to do to begin with is call flaky Lyin' Anthony Fauci.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 25, 2021, 02:47:21 PM
Trump was vilified by the democrat and biased media for this.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZflQZpj3lc

Now everyone is walking back their stupidity including moron Fauci.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P9o7qnawSU
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 25, 2021, 04:59:25 PM

Awesome commentary. 2016-2020 is an illustration US politics (Democrat) cronyism, fully supported by our society's elite-backed media.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeuwqHDIRSQ
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on May 26, 2021, 11:03:45 AM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/afb052621dAPR20210526044510.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on May 26, 2021, 02:19:55 PM
BillyB,...It's not just China blaming 'the west' ..YOU blamed the Chinese ... suggesting it had 'escaped from a biolab'..Seeing any common denominator ? ...
As it stands now...Perhaps they are both right---
It apparently escaped from a Wuhan lab that is funded by the USA and Fauci was lying every step of the way.
What are we [the USA] doing funding a Chinese biology laboratory?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on May 26, 2021, 02:35:16 PM
Then I mentioned and speculated about the Asiatic regions' love for their wet markets aka snake alleys, where there's a section of the markets where caged live animals of all types are offered and prepared as fresh meat, and I wasn't too far off apparently...
Actually it was. We learned that the Wuhan market was closed but then re-opened 3 days later... (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/undecided.gif)...   No such markets were ever closed in other large cities. What does that tell us?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on May 26, 2021, 03:46:43 PM
What does that tell us?

That they ran out of bat meat ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on May 26, 2021, 03:59:06 PM
Actually it was. We learned that the Wuhan market was closed but then re-opened 3 days later... (http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/Smileys/DarkB/undecided.gif)...   No such markets were ever closed in other large cities. What does that tell us?


I do believe the media is the principal culprit into this whole fiasco, just like with everything else that had been happening for the past 6-12+ years. The curtain opened when those Greek columns were brought on to the stage 2008.

This is what Live Science said back in April/May 2020:

 http://www.livescience.com/covid-19-did-not-start-at-wuhan-wet-market.html (http://www.livescience.com/covid-19-did-not-start-at-wuhan-wet-market.html)


Quote
Instead, the live animal market may have been the site of a superspreader event, where one person spread the virus to many other people, one US-based expert told Live Science...

Two things to note:
1. You have two guesses on who this 'US-based expert is. If you guess Fauci or Dr. Baric, you stand a great chance at being right.
2. The quote above is very careful on being definitive. While it didn't debunk or deny the possible lab origin of the virus, it also didn't specify that the genesis was caused by zoonotic process. One of the sick staffer that is now being brought forward may have in fact been in a 'wet market' before he even knew he was already infected.

Bottom line, Dr. Anthony Fauci ought to run for POTUS in 2024. With this entire mess unfolding, he's the prototypical Democrat candidate for the highest office in our land these days.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on May 26, 2021, 04:20:19 PM
Quote from: tfcrew on March 11, 2020, 06:14:45 PM (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=24136.msg528942#msg528942)
Quote
The Communist leadership over there said to knock it off [blaming them for the virus] or we will get no more medicines [97% made in China]
  http://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-what-are-symptoms-fast-facts-china-wuhan-virus-death-toll/ (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-what-are-symptoms-fast-facts-china-wuhan-virus-death-toll/)
Most of these videos have been removed in compliance with Beijing's orders.
Mark my words...Mr Joe Biden will bow to the Chinese ---his butt in the air.
world health organization praised china for it's response to the virus...it seems that those in the know disagree with how you are directing your anger.
Oh! The World Health Organization? Never did anything for me. But the WHO are 'people in the know'? Just ask Anthony Fauci.
What I said about Biden means that I am angry? If I had said it about Donald Trump though ..it would win praise from the global minded.
Meanwhile how about the attention payed to----China’s Influence in Mexico and Central America:
Quote
China’s Investment’s in Mexico and Central America: Panama has received $3.16 billion  (http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=98644350-8be6-4278-a530-071bec7de3b3)in investments from China since 2005, the largest investment in the region, with additional investments following Panama’s establishment of official ties with the PRC in 2017.
 
  • $2.52 billion of this total investment has gone to the country’s transport sector with much of it focused on development related to the Panama Canal (http://foreignpolicy.com/2019/05/07/the-panama-canal-could-become-the-center-of-the-u-s-china-trade-war/).
Since 2005 China has invested $3 billion  (http://www.aei.org/china-global-investment-tracker/)in Mexico
 
  • $2.26 billion of this investment was in Mexico’s energy sector with the rest divided among the logistics, metals and transports sectors.
Other Central American countries have also received investments (http://www.aei.org/china-global-investment-tracker/) from China including $700 million in Guatemala’s technology sector and $810 million in Costa Rica’s transport, entertainment and technology sectors.
http://gop-foreignaffairs.house.gov/mexico-and-central-america/
"Investments"...Then why are all these immigration people coming to the USA ? Why not immigrate to China?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 26, 2021, 05:53:26 PM

As it stands now...Perhaps they are both right---
It apparently escaped from a Wuhan lab that is funded by the USA and Fauci was lying every step of the way.
What are we [the USA] doing funding a Chinese biology laboratory?

Good news, Facebook will now stop banning posts that say the virus was man made. I seen a compilation video of Fauci's words last year and this year and he has lied. I always forgave him for the lies on masks so people don't hog them up but some lies aren't excusable.

China is definitely at fault. It's still to be seen if America is at fault. We fund many international projects. We sent money to the Wuhan lab. Why didn't we have a representative over there to make sure our money is spent properly? The virus accidently escaped or was released on purpose by China? Not only do we need to figure out if we funded the development of this virus but we need to figure out if our government was sinister enough to ask China to release it right before an election year. The only way to get an honest investigation on this is to replace our government. Support the audits everyone!



I do believe the media is the principal culprit into this whole fiasco,


Our media is owned by the Democrats. The media doesn't act unless they are told to.

Last year Biden shut down a Trump investigation into the origins of the virus. Now Biden is asking WHO to investigate and asked our intelligence agencies to redouble their efforts. Lol. Of course the investigation results will be whatever they want to be. Fauci won't get fired.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9619349/Biden-shut-effort-prove-theory-COVID-originated-Wuhan-lab-concerns-evidence.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 27, 2021, 05:13:03 PM



Michigan House refunding all money to businesses who were penalized for not following governor's coronavirus rules after Democratic Michigan governor fails to follow her own rules.


http://www.breitbart.com/politics/2021/05/26/veto-proof-michigan-house-majority-passes-bill-refunding-coronavirus-fines-gretchen-whitmer-hypocrisy/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+breitbart+%28Breitbart+News%29




Fact checking sites have been consistently wrong on the virus and many other issues so Snopes adds a new flexible "False for now" rating which gives them to freedom to flip flop later without looking incompetent.

http://babylonbee.com/news/snopes-introduces-new-rating-false-for-now/


Fauci gets in a debate with past versions of himself and they can't agree on anything.

http://babylonbee.com/news/dr-fauci-gets-in-intense-debate-with-dr-fauci-from-a-few-months-ago
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on May 27, 2021, 10:13:32 PM
Planning to hit Las Vegas next week...the buffets are back I hear. 

California is having a lottery with million dollar prizes for people who get their shot.  Trying to coax those of us who haven't got one.   

Overall the system is going to punish those who don't get their shot.  Airlines, countries, maybe hotels, who knows what next.   

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on May 28, 2021, 02:00:05 AM
UK infection rate edging up a bit now from around 2000's a say to the 3000's as Indian variant makes headway by the sounds of it. I think it's been a bit held in check so far by the ongoing Vaccination campaign down to Vaccinating the early thirties now. So it just remains to be seen whether it will be effective enough once the vaccination program is complete by 31st July or whether we will have a second wave and all need a booster in the Autumn/Winter. Apparently a report out the other day reckoned the vaccine is effective enough against the Indian variant so we'll have to wait and see.

Ukraine's infection rate is down to around the 3000's or so (officially anyway) so will see if it joins the green list in early June, all a bit up in the air that one.

With the virus causing a deadly black fungus out in India I wouldn't be surprised if this was the result of a lab cock up in China probably messing around with the Sars virus to see if they could create a bio-weapon as an military threat to use against its opponents.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on May 29, 2021, 03:06:36 AM
Virus infection rate at around 4000 reported today for yesterday. That's an increase of a thousand over the previous day's reported figure of around 3000 or so infections. That's a big increase over the course of a day, if this keeps up I don't see myself flying anywhere anytime soon. Looks like the Indian variant is likely behind the increase in infection rate.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on May 29, 2021, 01:10:33 PM

Virus infection rate at around 4000 reported today for yesterday. That's an increase of a thousand over the previous day's reported figure of around 3000 or so infections. That's a big increase over the course of a day, if this keeps up I don't see myself flying anywhere anytime soon. Looks like the Indian variant is likely behind the increase in infection rate.

The thing with the vaccines are they lose effectiveness with variants. The experts I posted upthread said if we got the virus, our immune system will work great against the variants. What are they going to do? Make a vaccines for every varient?


COVID-19 has no credible natural ancestor. I've said that early last year and some people told me to listen to the scientists. I knew they were lying to us back then. How many times do these medical scientists have to lie to us before we understand they lie to us?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9629563/Chinese-scientists-created-COVID-19-lab-tried-cover-tracks-new-study-claims.html


Fauci says gain of function research outweighs the risk of a pathogen escaping a lab and causing a pandemic. Somebody should ask him what he thinks about it now.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3484390/

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/fauci-pathogen-experiments-outweigh-risk-pandemic


2012 Fauci went in Congress to get permission and funding for GOF. Said GOF will benefit society.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJIi_DotSB4

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on May 30, 2021, 02:21:12 AM
That makes for grim reading Billy. Well virus infection figures down to 3200 Ish today for the previous day so a bit of an improvement. Kind of feared it would be more like up another thousand so gives some hope yet that we may keep this variant in check. They reckon the current vaccine is effective against the Indian variant other later possible variants who knows. If the figures stay down enough maybe, it takes a few weeks for the vaccines to start getting effective so those most recently jabbed for the first time won't have much protection that and some will get it anyway just not as bad as they would have but still show up in the figures. Today's figures going down and not up more give some hope back to the possibility of getting out to the FSU this year.

Countries like India & Brazil I'm guessing remain the big concern as with the present set up it takes way too long if repeat vaccination of such a large population is needed and hence it allows for possible further variants.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on May 30, 2021, 06:46:09 AM
That makes for grim reading Billy. Well virus infection figures down to 3200 Ish today for the previous day so a bit of an improvement. Kind of feared it would be more like up another thousand so gives some hope yet that we may keep this variant in check. They reckon the current vaccine is effective against the Indian variant other later possible variants who knows. If the figures stay down enough maybe, it takes a few weeks for the vaccines to start getting effective so those most recently jabbed for the first time won't have much protection that and some will get it anyway just not as bad as they would have but still show up in the figures. Today's figures going down and not up more give some hope back to the possibility of getting out to the FSU this year.

Countries like India & Brazil I'm guessing remain the big concern as with the present set up it takes way too long if repeat vaccination of such a large population is needed and hence it allows for possible further variants.

You never actually listen to anything. You're like a dude with 2 mouths and no ears. At some point, I don't know when but at some point you'll realize that they are lying to you. None of the figures of covid from the beginning have been true or accurate, what makes you think they are now? All viruses mutate and have variants and none of them worse to humans than the original. They're lying to you Trench but I do understand why you fall for it much like you do with your own fantasies about women
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on May 30, 2021, 07:01:34 AM
You never actually listen to anything. You're like a dude with 2 mouths and no ears. At some point, I don't know when but at some point you'll realize that they are lying to you. None of the figures of covid from the beginning have been true or accurate, what makes you think they are now? All viruses mutate and have variants and none of them worse to humans than the original. They're lying to you Trench but I do understand why you fall for it much like you do with your own fantasies about women

We are probably idiots for not lining up like good little boys and getting our shot.  It has been a while, but I think I'm on the road to being convinced the shot is the better choice.  That said, I'd like to know before the shot, if I have already had the virus...and if I have, I'd likely refrain from getting the shot. 

Anti-vaxxer sheriff's deputy dies from COVID-19 complications shortly after mocking the vaccine on Facebook
Daniel 'Duke' Trujillo, 33, died on Wednesday from COVID-19 complications.

The Denver Sheriff's deputy had shared a string of anti-vax posts just weeks before his death, MailOnline reported.

"I have an immune system," read one of his Facebook posts.

See more stories on Insider's business page.

A Colorado sheriff's deputy died from COVID-19 complications shortly after sharing a string of anti-vaccination posts on his social media, according to MailOnline.


http://www.yahoo.com/news/anti-vaxxer-sheriffs-deputy-dies-120803899.html     (http://www.yahoo.com/news/anti-vaxxer-sheriffs-deputy-dies-120803899.html)

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on May 30, 2021, 07:20:13 AM
You never actually listen to anything. You're like a dude with 2 mouths and no ears. At some point, I don't know when but at some point you'll realize that they are lying to you. None of the figures of covid from the beginning have been true or accurate, what makes you think they are now? All viruses mutate and have variants and none of them worse to humans than the original. They're lying to you Trench but I do understand why you fall for it much like you do with your own fantasies about women

I don't think it is the government's or whoever's intention to lie, not at this stage on this, early on I think they misled or said statements when they didn't know themselves. There's no absolute accuracy to the figures of course they are just an indication but something to get an idea by is better than nothing. I don't think this virus is going to go away overnight so I was content enough going for the AZ Vaccine, I've got my second jab of it next week. I think Fathertime's post is right that it's too late finding your immune system is not up to it if you get it. He is probably right also in getting tested to see if he has had it first probably something I should have done but odds are I hadn't as I've been pretty careful and taken precautions.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on May 30, 2021, 07:20:22 AM
So after booking my reservation in Vegas I get this little notice:

   
IMPORTANT NOTICES:

Face Mask Policy
​The State of Nevada requires unvaccinated individuals to wear face coverings or masks.
In line with CDC guidance, fully vaccinated guests are not required to wear a mask. By not wearing a mask, you certify that you are fully vaccinated and that other guests in the area can rely on that as a truthful statement.
​Pool seating has been arranged to allow for physical distancing. Space is limited and availability is not guaranteed.


Of course Vegas is 'relying' on the public to wear a mask if they haven't had the shot.  Covering their ass, I suppose.  I'll be curious to see how many of the teetering vegas gasbags are wearing masks while pissing in the pool margarita in hand. 

Fathertime! 
 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on May 30, 2021, 08:55:53 AM
That was another reason I chose to get the vaccine to be able to go abroad, hopefully, and be ok while abroad, hopefully.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on May 30, 2021, 05:48:37 PM
"Russia on Wednesday has started mass vaccination of pets against the coronavirus, the state-run RIA Novosti news agency reported, citing Rosselkhoznadzor representative. Cornivac-Cov vaccine, the world’s first coronavirus vaccine for pets, is available in public and private veterinary clinics across several regions of Russia. "

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/05/30/ussia-on-saturday-confirmed-9289-new-coronavirus-cases-and-401-deaths-a69117

I'm guessing Krimster's goat won't bleat as many protests to the vaccine as some here have.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: John Gaunt on May 30, 2021, 10:02:48 PM
I’ve had both doses.
No signs of me howling at the moon yet.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 02, 2021, 01:05:37 PM
Anthony Fauci, the liberals' iconic idiot (http://thehill.com/changing-america/well-being/prevention-cures/555057-fauci-bombshell-not-convinced-covid-19-developed).
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 02, 2021, 08:45:26 PM


As some of you know by now, all of Fauci emails are out. Here they are

http://embed.documentcloud.org/documents/20793561-leopold-nih-foia-anthony-fauci-emails/ (http://embed.documentcloud.org/documents/20793561-leopold-nih-foia-anthony-fauci-emails/)


He's in deep doo doo. The pre release of his book has been pulled. He's been warned of the virus being engineered in a lab early last year.

http://populist.press/huge-fauci-busted-in-his-own-emails-truth-is-out/ (http://populist.press/huge-fauci-busted-in-his-own-emails-truth-is-out/)


Tucker shows Fauci lied over and over again even on gain of function. http://vimeo (http://vimeo)(dot)com/558339268

http://vimeo.com/558339268
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 04, 2021, 11:30:53 AM
Had my second jab of the Astra Zenaca Vaccine today. They were doing it at the same time as giving those in their thirties their first jab of the Pfizer vaccine. I made sure I was in the right queue ;) which oddly enough had a load of people in their fifties looking even though I am only early to mid forties so probably looked a bit out of place but at least I got the right vaccine, well at least I hope so lol.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 04, 2021, 03:30:18 PM

As some of you know by now, all of Fauci emails are out. Here they are

http://embed.documentcloud.org/documents/20793561-leopold-nih-foia-anthony-fauci-emails/ (http://embed.documentcloud.org/documents/20793561-leopold-nih-foia-anthony-fauci-emails/)


He's in deep doo doo. The pre release of his book has been pulled. He's been warned of the virus being engineered in a lab early last year.

http://populist.press/huge-fauci-busted-in-his-own-emails-truth-is-out/ (http://populist.press/huge-fauci-busted-in-his-own-emails-truth-is-out/)


Tucker shows Fauci lied over and over again even on gain of function. http://vimeo (http://vimeo)(dot)com/558339268




This liberal stooge, Fauci, should be held fully accountable not only being complicit via illegally funding for gain of function experiments with US taxpayers money, even after personally weighing in the risk of an accidental release of the more lethal and highly virulent coronavirus that got out of Wuhan. Covering it up, then completely misleading the world trying to hide behind his mess.

Millions of people died the world over, and this liberal hack spent that whole year intentionally misleading the global public.

http://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/556818-rising-june-4-2021 (http://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/556818-rising-june-4-2021)


But, as a Democrat stooge, he'll definitely be above the law. It is a sad day loonies like this stooge is held in the position he is. Worse for the country, the majority of the US population fully supported and subscribed to this political party despite all the crony revelations that are being exposed lately.


At the very least, perjury during his Congressional testimony (under oath) should not only can his arse, but put him in jail with Bubba & his dawgs. They'll give him a nice 'jab', and it ain't the vaccine.

The Trump administration laid out billions to speed up the creation of the vaccines, when all the while this idiotic stooge always had the sequence information mapped out to enable experts to relatively create the vaccines. Instead, he announces he'll be surprised if the vaccine do come out by year's end (last year) as Trump seems to believe. Little wonder why the fatalities in China, in comparison - and if true; is relatively miniscule considering the potential genesis of this pandemic..
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 05, 2021, 02:46:26 AM
Never mind this Fauci dude you US guys seem to love banging on about most of the rest of the world don't know and have no care for who he is.

I think things have changed of recent with regards to the virus. Western countries like the UK & US lead the world in the vaccination drive and not far off complete. Here in the UK we will theoretically finish our primary Vaccination program on the 31st July. EU countries are lagging behind and their inadequacies shown up but they are now finally moving along in their Vaccination program and will get to a near complete stage in the near future, eventually.

Today then it's the variants that of concern rather than the original virus. We are told the vaccine seems to give good protection against most variants that have cropped up so far as far as can be seen to date with very few hospitalisations needed and deaths very rare particularly among those of us that have had both jabs such as me :) So this then raises the question I think,

 'should I now move to not being too concerned if I catch a virus variant (or the original virus) or should I still do my best to avoid the risk of catching it?'

The advice given at the Vaccination centre I was at yesterday was to keep up the routine of virus prevention measures. I tend to go pretty comprehensive on these measures to date. But my thought is if I get the virus, most likely a variant, I am unlikely to do badly with it due to the vaccine but I will then have greater protection in theory against variants depending on the variant and so perhaps less likely to need further vaccines. So will any others than I might pass it onto that have had one or both jabs, although the viruses are apparently less transmissible with the vaccines.

So what I am saying is where do we go from here? Do we go for the risk avoidance/Vaccination approach or do we go for a carry on as we 'used to' and build up tolerance naturally on top off the vaccine approach?

I will probably stick to a relatively risk avoid strategy at the moment to give my second vaccine a chance to build up further antibodies but at the same time I think there comes a point where you have to live your life and those around you also. Most of the people I mix with have now either had or about to have their second dose or have had one dose and are physically fit/lack underlying health problems as far as aware. So do we all hunker down with reduce activity or all just get back on to doing stuff like we used to?

Myself I will probably get back to doing stuff like I used to as it often didn't involve a lot of close people contact. So I won't purposefully go out to catch the virus but I won't be as avoidant at doing the things I usually used to do like go out for meet ups at the pub, clothes shopping in stores, etc. I'll probably keep using the antibacterial hand lotions but move to a lighter cloth mask than the professional one I use in the near future, I can always have it to hand if it becomes needed again anyway and so I'll probably take it from there. What are other members thoughts on all of this?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 05, 2021, 09:41:40 AM
This liberal stooge, Fauci, should be held fully accountable not only being complicit via illegally funding for gain of function experiments with US taxpayers money, even after personally weighing in the risk of an accidental release of the more lethal and highly virulent coronavirus that got out of Wuhan. Covering it up, then completely misleading the world trying to hide behind his mess.



There's a video of Fauci telling Congress GOF is important to develop new medicines and a virus escaping a lab causing a pandemic is worth the risk compared to the benefits. Fauci got permission and funding from Congress to do GOF. He's protected there. He may be punished for lying about it but I suspect Fauci is the kind of leader Biden wants.




Never mind this Fauci dude you US guys seem to love banging on about most of the rest of the world don't know and have no care for who he is.



It's important we get to the bottom of Fauci's activities. It's possible he helped create this pandemic. We need to make sure it doesn't happen again. It's possible Fauci had sincere intentions of finding more powerful medicines but it's also possible that the escape wasn't an accident and the virus was used as a bioweapon.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 06, 2021, 04:20:00 AM

It's important we get to the bottom of Fauci's activities. It's possible he helped create this pandemic. We need to make sure it doesn't happen again. It's possible Fauci had sincere intentions of finding more powerful medicines but it's also possible that the escape wasn't an accident and the virus was used as a bioweapon.

Ah I see, then I'll let you continue your good work looking into Dr Evil ;D
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 06, 2021, 04:34:22 AM
Anyway, my thoughts to the virus situation to date is that I think for countries like the US & UK that are now becoming well Vaccinated it may now be best to get on with life more like we used to. See if we can move away from further rounds of vaccinations apart from possibly the elderly and vulnerable and see if our bodies can deal with the variants on their own with the help of the vaccine for the original virus. That way this virus may possibly become pretty irrelevant over time and little more need be done. If that strategy doesn't work ultimately then I doubt it ever will and we'll have to use another strategy. It looks promising though as the present vaccine can deal well with the Indian and other varients. So by getting infected perhaps without even knowing about it may help us to keep up with the variant mutations without us having to vaccinate periodically. I think otherwise if we all go to ground we could be avoiding variant changes and have to vaccinate again if the variant changes significantly enough over time.

I'm thinking the best way forward for us now is to just keep fit and a healthy diet to aid our bodies in dealing with any variant infection.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on June 06, 2021, 06:14:09 AM
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/Fauci's_Chariot_Small20210605072845.jpg)(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/cb060521dAPC20210604114509.jpg)
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/afb060421dAPR20210604044541.jpg)
(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/MC_FauciEmails_web20210604120000.jpg)(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/gv060321dAPR20210603084505.jpg)(http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/bg060121dAPR20210529094517.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 06, 2021, 01:25:27 PM



Conservative article says Obama admin lifted GOF ban Jan 9th 2017, eleven days before Trump took office. Sounds suspicious but Obama never banned GOF, he only suspended it with the suspension being lifted automatically in 2017. We still need to figure out if the release of Covid was intentional and if Democrats were involved. Yesterday, Trump called on China to pay trillions for the damages they caused on America.




http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2021/06/05/interesting-timing-obama-administration-lifted-block-on-gain-of-function-research-just-eleven-days-before-president-trump-took-office-january-9-2017/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 09, 2021, 09:07:37 AM


Months ago I seen some videos of people saying the vaccines have magnetic properties. They'd put magnets or metal over their skin where they got the shot and it would hold. Thought it was a prank at first but more and more people have shown this to be true.

http://gab.com/LaurenWitzkeDE/posts/106309658534251225


Your medical records should not be confidential and is everybody's business.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y2VoZkuRv4
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 09, 2021, 01:24:09 PM
It is a prank.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on June 09, 2021, 07:22:34 PM
Regarding the video... I would have told the guy to just get out of my restaurant or I will call the police.
BTW they both need masks and they both need haircuts.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 10, 2021, 08:30:35 AM
It is a prank.


Oh no. The guy is a doctor. Check out what he says about vaccinations.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_kwFKAmd8M
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on June 10, 2021, 07:06:54 PM
 (http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/mrz060821dAPR20210608054507.jpg)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 10, 2021, 11:03:58 PM



A lot of people lost confidence in Fauci. If Fauci really cares about people's health, he would resign and his replacement should be someone that the public has confidence in. If Biden really cares about people's health, he would fire Fauci and replace him with someone the public has confidence in. Fauci made his money and would get a nice pension so he's not hurting. Keeping him on the job isn't more important than people's health.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 11, 2021, 03:41:42 AM
1 min 50 second mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNjFijx9tlE
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 11, 2021, 08:04:54 AM



BC, what those two ladies said is nothing like what is shown on the internet. The comedian is deflecting on what is claimed. What is claimed is after a fresh mRNA vaccine shot, the area of the shot is magnetized, not the whole body and not forever as the comedian is trying to claim is the claim. If he's afraid to address what is claimed, then he's defecting. Ask yourself why.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on June 11, 2021, 08:15:56 AM

Quote
A lot of people lost confidence in Fauci.
Fauci was warned that COVID-19 may have been ‘engineered,’ emails show         
Quote
Dr. Anthony Fauci was warned that the coronavirus had possibly been “engineered” and appeared to be taking reports about it seriously — at the same time he was publicly downplaying the notion of the virus being created in a lab, according to his emails.Meanwhile, Fauci, America’s top expert in infectious diseases, also got a “personal thank you” for backing the “natural origin” theory from the head of a nonprofit that used a $3.4 million government grant to fund research at the Chinese lab suspected of creating the virus, the emails show.On Jan. 31, 2020 — more than two months before the World Health Organization characterized COVID-19 as a pandemic — Fauci sent an email to US virus researcher Kristian Andersen and Sir Jeremy Farrar, who runs a global health charity in Britain.Fauci forwarded them a copy of a Science magazine article titled, “Mining coronavirus genomes for clues to the outbreak’s origins.”“This just came out today. You may have seen it. If not, it is of interest to the current discussion,” wrote Fauci, the longtime head of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases.
http://nypost.com/2021/06/02/fauci-was-warned-that-covid-may-have-been-engineered-emails/  (http://nypost.com/2021/06/02/fauci-was-warned-that-covid-may-have-been-engineered-emails/)
 (http://nypost.com/2021/06/02/fauci-was-warned-that-covid-may-have-been-engineered-emails/)
[/url]
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 11, 2021, 08:33:21 AM
Billy,

I got the shot.  Nothing stuck.  My mother got the shot, nothing stuck. Just about any light object will stick to our sweaty/oily skin if a little pressure is used.

Of course the video was comedy, but those folks really fell for it.

Get vaccinated and try. Or take an old copper penny, a popsicle stick, or a match and stick it to your forehead.  They stuck when we were kids and it'll stick today. Used to be funny back then, today not so much. You'll see soon enough it's all fake news.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkMOSkwEWDQ

Works on other parts of the body as well.  Neck is a good place, tilt head left, put penny on right side of neck and straighten head.

http://www.newsweek.com/man-attempt-vaccine-magnet-theory-fails-admits-wrong-1599322

Do as this 'believer' did and try with without talcum powder.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 11, 2021, 08:50:02 AM
Billy,

I got the shot.  Nothing stuck.  My mother got the shot, nothing stuck. Just about any light object will stick to our sweaty/oily skin if a little pressure is used.



MRNA? dDd you try to put something there right after the shot? From the demonstrations I've seen on the internet, the magnetism works only right after one gets the shot.




Fauci was warned that COVID-19 may have been ‘engineered,’ emails show         http://nypost.com/2021/06/02/fauci-was-warned-that-covid-may-have-been-engineered-emails/  (http://nypost.com/2021/06/02/fauci-was-warned-that-covid-may-have-been-engineered-emails/)




There are plenty of emails on this. Here's an April, 2020 email where Fauci was told American money went to Wuhan for bat sampling work. While the media was ridiculing Trump and Pompeo last year for claiming the virus came from a lab and they don't listen to scientists, Fauci stayed silent. He needs to be fired. Any scientist that said the virus was natural and no way could have been made in a lab is an idiot or purposely engaged in propaganda.

http://gab.com/KanekoaTheGreat/posts/106365983618226640 (http://gab.com/KanekoaTheGreat/posts/106365983618226640)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 11, 2021, 09:14:46 AM

MRNA? dDd you try to put something there right after the shot? From the demonstrations I've seen on the internet, the magnetism works only right after one gets the shot.


Yes, MRNA.  Just for shits and grins, when I get my second dose, I'll try to remember to take a sewing needle with me and video the syringe trying to pick up the needle.  Of course the magnetic properties should be most concentrated in pure form.  But reckon even then you'll come back stating that the second shot has some antimagnetic properties that nullify the first magnetic one or some other condition that can't be proven to keep the fallacy going.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 11, 2021, 10:58:58 AM
There are plenty of emails on this. Here's an April, 2020 email where Fauci was told American money went to Wuhan for bat sampling work. While the media was ridiculing Trump and Pompeo last year for claiming the virus came from a lab and they don't listen to scientists, Fauci stayed silent. He needs to be fired. Any scientist that said the virus was natural and no way could have been made in a lab is an idiot or purposely engaged in propaganda.

http://gab.com/KanekoaTheGreat/posts/106365983618226640 (http://gab.com/KanekoaTheGreat/posts/106365983618226640)


FIRED?!? The idiot should be in jail by now.


What all these really mean is, the 'hate' of anything and everything Trump, far outweighed the welfare and safety of all of us. It is not a coincidence there had been a frontal Democrat/media narrative drive to push this whole mythical 'Asian hate' BS to curb off any likely reaction to this lie.


Science knew what this virus all along. Fauci & co. helped create the shit! They knew the genome sequence all along, so the miraculous release of these vaccine aren't some 'miracle'. Even, as I'm certain, Russia was tipped to have come out with their sputnik vaccine in record time, too.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 11, 2021, 11:43:35 AM
For those that want more detail to the email being discussed, see below, including the link that is referenced.

(http://i.postimg.cc/g2yZgX9b/Screen-Shot-2021-06-11-at-20-33-03.png)

(http://i.postimg.cc/9FgmCcGw/Screen-Shot-2021-06-11-at-20-44-47.png)

http://reporter.nih.gov/project-details/9819304

There is nothing 'nasty' or 'smoking gun' here and the information was and still is public.

Following this type of research seems quite prudent as described in the project.  Although opinions obviously abound, there are no definitive answers.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 11, 2021, 11:59:02 AM
*Nothing nasty*!


Really?!? Millions dead worldwide and you actually believe there's nothing nasty about this?


Funding gain of function experiment was suspended back in the 2015 (Obama administration) for the simple reason it was then deemed the risk outweighed the reward. But Fauci & Co. saw fit to circumvent this suspension and allowed the funds to continue.


Moreover, why when questioned during his congressional testimony, Fauci denied US complicity into the Wuhan Lab? Why didn't Fauci & Co. supported the Trump administration's that this *novel* virus is in fact an engineered virus leaked from the Wuhan lab?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 11, 2021, 12:33:55 PM
Quote
Researchers in China say they have uncovered a new batch of coronaviruses in bats that resembles the COVID-19 virus that has swept the globe.

The researchers said they collected samples from small bats that lived in forests in the Yunnan province between May 2019 and November 2020. The samples consisted of urine, feces and mouth swabs.

"In total, we assembled 24 novel coronavirus genomes from different bat species, including four SARS-CoV-2 like coronaviruses," the researchers wrote in the journal Cell.

The researchers said one strain, garnered from the Rhinolophus pusillus bat species, bears a particularly strong resemblance to SARS-CoV-2, though with differences on the spike protein that the viruses use to attach to cells they infect.

http://thehill.com/policy/international/557998-chinese-researchers-say-new-batch-of-coronaviruses-found-in-bats

GQ,

As I stated opinions abound, including the one you just posted.  We still don't know if GOF was involved or not in this outbreak.

If one puts aside the blame game for the 'source' of this strain for just a moment, and reflects about what would have happened if a research such as this had not been performed prior, along with precursor vaccines developing from this very same research, the death and toll from economic damage could have been far worse. 

Such viruses will inevitably hit us again and again and more often, lab or not, from here or there or anywhere. Hopefully we have learned from this hard lesson and we'll all take it a bit more seriously and be better prepared to take action next time which could be sooner than we think.  The 'once in a century bug' is no more. The rate of global air travel doubles per decade and this poses the greatest risk of spread.  I remember when such was a true luxury and most airport terminals no larger than a hangar today.  We may well have had even more dangerous bugs in the past but didn't notice them as there was little spread which died out without going anywhere.  If it wasn't for WWI with hundreds of thousands of troops and other folks moving around rapidly, the Spanish flu may have died out in Kansas, which even today remains the suspected origin.

Here's how Frankfurt International looked when I first landed there.

(http://www.historycentral.com/aviation/airports/frankfort.jpg)

And today.

(http://cdn.businesstraveller.com/wp-content/uploads/fly-images/772857/Frankfurt-e1478089796911-916x515.gif)

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 11, 2021, 12:42:13 PM
There is nothing 'nasty' or 'smoking gun' here and the information was and still is public.



We just gave money to a lab in China capable of making biological weapons and their was no oversight. China can't be trusted to do things without oversight. Maybe Fauci can explain how he made sure China wasn't abusing our money to develop a military weapon for themselves? He can't explain what happened because there was no oversight. We didn't have our scientists over there watching them create a new Frankenstein virus. China wouldn't even let us over there to evaluate the behavior of the virus spreading among its people. WHO simply repeated the lie the virus wasn't human to human transferable, nothing to fear. Although Democrats are on the intelligence committee and has access to intelligence, they were busy with impeachment while Trump shut down travel. Months after that, Democrats were still telling people to go out and eat at your local Chinatown restaurant. Then they blame Trump for not shutting things down fast enough which would've limited deaths.




We still don't know if GOF was involved or not in this outbreak.



This virus has been on earth for over a year and a half and we still don't know if GOF was involved. Sad the people in charge don't know anything about how this virus came to be. They should be fired. Some say they should be jailed.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 11, 2021, 12:55:18 PM
http://thehill.com/policy/international/557998-chinese-researchers-say-new-batch-of-coronaviruses-found-in-bats (http://thehill.com/policy/international/557998-chinese-researchers-say-new-batch-of-coronaviruses-found-in-bats)

GQ,

As I stated opinions abound, including the one you just posted.  We still don't know if GOF was involved or not in this outbreak.

Put aside the fact one of the emails to Fauci from one of his cohorts that this 'virus' have enough stamp on it that leaves no doubt it's engineered.

Would we ever know if this was in fact a Wuhan lab leaked? I wouldn't bet on it. Not because I don't believe it is but because all the 'investigation', especially with this current administration, as I stated upthread, carries no merit nor carry with it the need or urgency to confirm the genesis of this pandemic. They are leaving it up to WHO to send their delegates there to 'find out'.

Quote
If one puts aside the blame game for the 'source' of this strain for just a moment, and reflects about what would have happened if a research such as this had not been performed prior, along with precursor vaccines developing from this very same research, the death and toll from economic damage could have been far worse.


I can't believe you actually said that.


If no one created Frankenstein, why the need to find a defense against him?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 11, 2021, 02:45:11 PM

Would we ever know if this was in fact a Wuhan lab leaked? I wouldn't bet on it. Not because I don't believe it is but because all the 'investigation', especially with this current administration, as I stated upthread, carries no merit nor carry with it the need or urgency to confirm the genesis of this pandemic. They are leaving it up to WHO to send their delegates there to 'find out'.

It's their country.  Better to try work with them, leaving justified blame when the facts are known than to build a wall with blame.  At least Biden has promised to release all information known with Congress unanimously holding him to it. He took possession of the football and running with it instead of an intentional grounding.

Quote
I can't believe you actually said that.

If no one created Frankenstein, why the need to find a defense against him?

You don't remember SARS-CoV in 2002, and MERS-CoV in 2012 both more deadly than SARS-CoV-2(we call COVID-19)?  Fortunately, they were not as infectious and did not spread so fast or we would have been in really deep shit 20 years ago without any hope for a vaccine around the corner.  They are all from the same growing COVID family.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 11, 2021, 03:12:46 PM

We just gave money to a lab in China capable of making biological weapons and their was no oversight. China can't be trusted to do things without oversight. Maybe Fauci can explain how he made sure China wasn't abusing our money to develop a military weapon for themselves? He can't explain what happened because there was no oversight. We didn't have our scientists over there watching them create a new Frankenstein virus. China wouldn't even let us over there to evaluate the behavior of the virus spreading among its people. WHO simply repeated the lie the virus wasn't human to human transferable, nothing to fear. Although Democrats are on the intelligence committee and has access to intelligence, they were busy with impeachment while Trump shut down travel. Months after that, Democrats were still telling people to go out and eat at your local Chinatown restaurant. Then they blame Trump for not shutting things down fast enough which would've limited deaths.

You forgot to throw in the kitchen sink.  My first thought reading this was of a sniper with a shotgun and birdshot at 500 yards.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 11, 2021, 04:31:45 PM
It's their country.  Better to try work with them, leaving justified blame when the facts are known than to build a wall with blame.  At least Biden has promised to release all information known with Congress unanimously holding him to it. He took possession of the football and running with it instead of an intentional grounding.


Cute. Which actually means pretty much nothing. What information will Biden release exactly after WHO gets back to him? That there's no proof of it came from the lab, and that it was from the wet market from some 40+ miles away? That should be good enough, yes? That's pretty much what I summed up above.

Quote
You don't remember SARS-CoV in 2002, and MERS-CoV in 2012 both more deadly than SARS-CoV-2(we call COVID-19)?  Fortunately, they were not as infectious and did not spread so fast or we would have been in really deep shit 20 years ago without any hope for a vaccine around the corner.  They are all from the same growing COVID family.


False projection, BC. Those two viruses were not as virulent as COVID-19 for the simple reason they were not engineered to be one. That's the main point of gain of function. COVID-19 literally discarded, or skipped, the zoonotic process of transfer.


Hell, if you see any merit to GOF then why not spend the money and get the cure for the viruses the HIV, Herpes instead?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on June 11, 2021, 07:56:11 PM
In a series of definitive pieces that earned him the 2021 Pulitzer Prize for explanatory reporting, The Atlantic’s Ed Yong anticipated the course of the coronavirus pandemic, clarified its dangers, and illuminated the American government’s disastrous failure to curb it. 

http://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2021/06/ed-yongs-pulitzer-prize-winning-pandemic-coverage/619182/

The link includes links to the award winning stories.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 11, 2021, 11:43:23 PM

Cute. Which actually means pretty much nothing. What information will Biden release exactly after WHO gets back to him? That there's no proof of it came from the lab, and that it was from the wet market from some 40+ miles away? That should be good enough, yes? That's pretty much what I summed up above.

Statement by President Joe Biden on the Investigation into the Origins of COVID-19
http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/05/26/statement-by-president-joe-biden-on-the-investigation-into-the-origins-of-covid-19/

S.1867 - COVID–19 Origin Act of 2021
http://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/1867/actions

Quote
False projection, BC. Those two viruses were not as virulent as COVID-19 for the simple reason they were not engineered to be one. That's the main point of gain of function. COVID-19 literally discarded, or skipped, the zoonotic process of transfer.

As your opinion fine. As fact, sources of the first two were tracked down, and COVID 19 we have a couple of possibilities, but simply don't know yet. Maybe in 90 days or so we'll know more and have more complete information to evaluate.  Viruses do evolve naturally, gaining and losing function. Research tries to predict mutations and the possibility of gaining more dangerous qualities, such as ease of transmission.

We'll just have to be patient and see how the facts unfold.

Quote
Hell, if you see any merit to GOF then why not spend the money and get the cure for the viruses the HIV, Herpes instead?

Someone, somewhere may well have.

http://www.jbc.org/article/S0021-9258(19)72741-0/pdf
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on June 12, 2021, 12:20:19 AM
As I stated opinions abound, including the one you just posted.  We still don't know if GOF was involved or not in this outbreak.
 
Quote
Gain of function research (GoF research or GoFR) is medical research (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_research) that alters an organism or disease in a way that increases pathogenesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathogenesis), transmissibility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_(medicine)), or host range (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Host_tropism) (the types of hosts that a microorganism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microorganism) can infect). This research is intended to reveal targets to better predict emerging infectious diseases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emerging_infectious_disease) and to develop vaccines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccines) and therapeutics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therapeutics).
What did cause the outbreak...the boogieman?

How do you now Dr. Li is a top virologist?  Do you have any credentials, beyond what Dr. Li tells us, to substantiate that?  No, I didn't think so.
Was that one ever walked back?

Let's all learn how to be skeptical from now on.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 12, 2021, 12:31:34 AM
  What did cause the outbreak...the boogieman?

Could be a possibility depending on your definition.  Fact is we simply do not know yet.
 
Quote
Let's all learn how to be skeptical from now on.

If science were not skeptical, Earth might still be flat, with the Sun revolving around it.

Quote
The scientific method is an empirical method of acquiring knowledge that has characterized the development of science since at least the 17th century. It involves careful observation, applying rigorous skepticism about what is observed, given that cognitive assumptions can distort how one interprets the observation.

-wikipedia
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 12, 2021, 07:44:47 AM
This is what I mean with you at times. When you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with...

Statement by President Joe Biden on the Investigation into the Origins of COVID-19
http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/05/26/statement-by-president-joe-biden-on-the-investigation-into-the-origins-of-covid-19/ (http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/05/26/statement-by-president-joe-biden-on-the-investigation-into-the-origins-of-covid-19/)

S.1867 - COVID–19 Origin Act of 2021
http://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/1867/actions (http://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/1867/actions)


Did you even read any of these two links? There's absolutely NOTHING in these two that delivered anything we didn't already knew or have since this whole thing began. Trump, as early as January last year, upon banning travel to China was confronted by opposition, notably the WHO, saying China had always been transparent with the current epidemic and they are taking care of it, assuring the world it will be contained. All events in between, what has changed?


Back in April when Trump announced there's enough intelligence gathered that gave him no doubt this was more than a potentiality that it came from a lab, Democrats demonized him - and this came from the DNI shortly after.


http://Intelligence Community Statement on Origins of COVID-19 (dni.gov)

No Sireee Donnie We wouldn't want to blame anyone else on this pandemic other than the target of affection, now do we? Besides, in less than a year there's going to be a campaign about fighting 'Asian hate'. in the land.


What changed since then? Yeah...the *2020 election*.

 (http://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/item/2112-intelligence-community-statement-on-origins-of-covid-19)
Quote
As your opinion fine. As fact, sources of the first two were tracked down, and COVID 19 we have a couple of possibilities, but simply don't know yet. Maybe in 90 days or so we'll know more and have more complete information to evaluate.  Viruses do evolve naturally, gaining and losing function. Research tries to predict mutations and the possibility of gaining more dangerous qualities, such as ease of transmission.


Your attempt to elevate yourself fails miserably. Science, for all its merit, is nothing more than an *opinion* unless proven wrong. Remember the dinosaur tales?

Quote
We'll just have to be patient and see how the facts unfold.


Do we really have a choice? China had already publicly pushed back against Biden, like it did against Trump.

Quote
Someone, somewhere may well have.

http://www.jbc.org/article/S0021-9258(19)72741-0/pdf (http://www.jbc.org/article/S0021-9258(19)72741-0/pdf)


There you go again. Exactly 22 years ago to the month....it's still 'someone, somewhere' to the day. Which as above...means *nothing*.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 12, 2021, 11:22:52 AM



J and J vaccine not doing good. Effectiveness isn't as advertised and manufacturing flaws are making countries give it away. 60 mil doses to be thrown away.


http://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-foregoes-100-million-jj-vaccines-considers-donating-other-doses-sources-2021-06-10/ (http://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-foregoes-100-million-jj-vaccines-considers-donating-other-doses-sources-2021-06-10/)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9677093/FDA-ordered-Johnson-Johnson-throw-60-million-COVID-19-vaccine-doses.html?ITO=applenews (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-9677093/FDA-ordered-Johnson-Johnson-throw-60-million-COVID-19-vaccine-doses.html?ITO=applenews)


Your government think you're stupid. Are you? I've attached a few photos. See if you can figure it out.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 12, 2021, 12:06:04 PM
This is what I mean with you at times. When you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with...

Bullshit.  It's ok, you can say it, but before aiming to throw it at me lets review:

After I briefly mentioned the ongoing  of Biden and Congress, that will hopefully bring more clarity:

Quote
It's their country.  Better to try work with them, leaving justified blame when the facts are known than to build a wall with blame.  At least Biden has promised to release all information known with Congress unanimously holding him to it. He took possession of the football and running with it instead of an intentional grounding.

You replied [emphasis added]

Quote
Cute. Which actually means pretty much nothing. What information will Biden release exactly after WHO gets back to him? That there's no proof of it came from the lab, and that it was from the wet market from some 40+ miles away? That should be good enough, yes? That's pretty much what I summed up above.

And I responded with the links to the WH press release, dated 26 May 2021 and the Senate Bill S.1867 of the same date.

You now reply:

Quote
Did you even read any of these two links? There's absolutely NOTHING in these two that delivered anything we didn't already knew or have since this whole thing began. Trump, as early as January last year, upon banning travel to China was confronted by opposition, notably the WHO, saying China had always been transparent with the current epidemic and they are taking care of it, assuring the world it will be contained. All events in between, what has changed?

Of course I read them, and there is nothing we don't already know.  That wasn't even the point of our little discussion in the first place.  But it seems you missed the point by a mile.  May I kindly ask if you read them in the context of our discussion?

Maybe lets try to get it straight:

1. Biden gave intelligence services 90 days from 26 May 2021 to dig up more information that can help establish the origin of the virus.

Quote
I have now asked the Intelligence Community to redouble their efforts to collect and analyze information that could bring us closer to a definitive conclusion, and to report back to me in 90 days.

2. The Senate in S.1867 in turn voted unanimously to require DNI (Head of the Intelligence Community) to:

Quote
Not later than 90 days after the date of the enactment of this Act, the Director of National Intelligence shall—

(1) declassify any and all information relating to potential links between the Wuhan Institute of Virology and the origin of the Coronavirus Disease 2019 (COVID–19), including— [list of specific items]

So 90 days from 26 May 2021, around 24 August 2021, Biden will get a report from DNI, and that report will be declassified except for sources and methods.  Only at that time will it be possible that we may know more.  Neither you, nor I, or the president will know anything more until then.


Quote
Back in April when Trump announced there's enough intelligence gathered that gave him no doubt this was more than a potentiality that it came from a lab, Democrats demonized him - and this came from the DNI shortly after.

http://Intelligence Community Statement on Origins of COVID-19 (dni.gov)

No Sireee Donnie We wouldn't want to blame anyone else on this pandemic other than the target of affection, now do we? Besides, in less than a year there's going to be a campaign about fighting 'Asian hate'. in the land.


What changed since then? Yeah...the *2020 election*. (http://www.dni.gov/index.php/newsroom/press-releases/item/2112-intelligence-community-statement-on-origins-of-covid-19)

And Biden, not being satisfied with the report he was given in January, he ordered the intelligence services to redouble their effort and Senate ordering that any information be declassified. 


Quote
Your attempt to elevate yourself fails miserably. Science, for all its merit, is nothing more than an *opinion* unless proven wrong. Remember the dinosaur tales?

It seems you do not understand the scientific method.  In the context we are discussing think Opinion = Observation

The video is short and quite good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMGRe824kak


Quote
Do we really have a choice? China had already publicly pushed back against Biden, like it did against Trump.

No, we have to wait and see if something new is revealed towards the end of August.

Quote
There you go again. Exactly 22 years ago to the month....it's still 'someone, somewhere' to the day. Which as above...means *nothing*.

You were the one that asked:

Quote
Hell, if you see any merit to GOF then why not spend the money and get the cure for the viruses the HIV, Herpes instead?

I simply gave you a link to research of HIV where it seems GOF was being used.  Why complain about that? Did you not find it helpful?

GQ,

you're a bright guy.  You enjoy the discourse as much as I do along with being able to take a poke here and there.  You want answers to the same questions I do, including if the bug was related to work at the lab.

I'm not like someone else who used to hang around jumping through every hoop imaginable just to try and be right, even if wrong.  I usually don't argue for the sake of argument.  If I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit such.  But can I make a simple request ?  If you want to shoot a few hoops, let's stick with a basketball instead of making me try dribbling a football.  I'm all for constructive discourse if that is what you really want.  If not, just let me know and I'll keep my replies simple instead of engaging in efforts to learn something and draw lines we both can agree on.

Go ahead and throw the BS if you still want to  :D

[/list]
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 13, 2021, 08:44:20 AM
OY!

Bullshit.  It's ok, you can say it, but before aiming to throw it at me lets review:

After I briefly mentioned the ongoing  of Biden and Congress, that will hopefully bring more clarity:

You replied [emphasis added]

And I responded with the links to the WH press release, dated 26 May 2021 and the Senate Bill S.1867 of the same date.

You now reply:

Of course I read them, and there is nothing we don't already know.  That wasn't even the point of our little discussion in the first place.  But it seems you missed the point by a mile.  May I kindly ask if you read them in the context of our discussion?

Maybe lets try to get it straight:

1. Biden gave intelligence services 90 days from 26 May 2021 to dig up more information that can help establish the origin of the virus.

2. The Senate in S.1867 in turn voted unanimously to require DNI (Head of the Intelligence Community) to:

So 90 days from 26 May 2021, around 24 August 2021, Biden will get a report from DNI, and that report will be declassified except for sources and methods.  Only at that time will it be possible that we may know more.  Neither you, nor I, or the president will know anything more until then.

And Biden, not being satisfied with the report he was given in January, he ordered the intelligence services to redouble their effort and Senate ordering that any information be declassified. 

Not exactly. Biden was pressured to the mounting evidence provided to him by the Trump administration late December 2020. Evidences that were dismissed and scorned by the Democratic congress.

How Biden came round to the Wuhan lab-leak theory | Financial Times (ft.com) (http://www.ft.com/content/923e0256-7f7e-43ef-b4fe-64c066b8b70b)


1. You inferred we somehow appreciate that gain of function allowed us to come up with a vaccine sooner than we normally could have to fight the virus.
2. I replied I couldn’t believe you said that, adding, we don’t create Franky, we don’t need to find the means to defend ourselves from him.
3. Then you reason by projecting MERS/SARS into the discussion that we should be thankful they were not as virulent as COVID-19.
4.  I stated as posted by citing COVID-19 was engineered to be *more* virulent, to which you stated it’s *my* opinion and then throw me YOUR *opinion* as fact saying we don’t yet know that.

Fair enough. For now my *opinion* was based on the email provided to us by FOIA written to Fauci by one of his colleague who investigated and studied COVID-19, and came up to the conclusion – COVID-19 have the markings of an ENGINEERED virus.
Many times on these discussions, facts and opinions are expressed. Some are reality-based, some mythical, while some are conjured up by sheer ignorance. IF the basis of MY opinion (in this specific exchange) that a study was conducted (science) as evidenced by a once-classified exchange between scientists, where it found (scientific method) evidence, conclusive enough to raise concerns and notification, that this virus have the markings of an ENGINEERED virus. Would this still be an *opinion* to you?

So your link/s, added nothing to what we already had in our hands. There already were evidences on hand. Biden's initial investigation order was to hand-off the duty to WHO, whom we already know is irresponsible and easily coerced by China. So, delegating an investigation to the usual suspect is an exercise in futility. That's akin to delegating migrant problems we have to his VP - Kamala Harris, man.

He hands off a new executive command to 'double' the effort for this investigation and report back to him in 90-days. Declassify information and evidence he already have on-hand? Takes 90-days to do that? You know, I know, I'm sure he knows - China isn't going to welcome his investigators with open arms while ushering them into the Wuhan lab and giving them all the necessary documents to insure this investigation is successful.

So, again, what is it we have or know today - that we didn't already have? My guess - ZIP, NADA! Would this investigation prove the lab leak ('theory' at this time) conclusively confirmed simply by the evidence our intelligence have on hand - or does China need to submit their confessions before it becomes 'conclusive'?

So, like the response I gave BillyB above that sprung this exchange with you and me. Fauci not only needs to get fired, he needs to spend a very long time in jail for everything he had done around this pandemic. For helping create, then politicize a deadly virus that plague not only the US, but nations beyond.

Quote
It seems you do not understand the scientific method.

Funny.

Quote
In the context we are discussing think Opinion = Observation

The video is short and quite good.

There you go, exactly what I said on my opening line in my previous post.

Now, let me continue. Your video, while entertaining, has little to NO relevance to anything above. YOU need to understand the difference between *SCIENCE* from ‘scientific method’. This way you don’t do what you just did, again. Science is a systematic study, or an attempt, to explain how things that surround us ‘work’. Scientific method is the sequential process to reach a conclusion. Where science is a study, and absent conclusive substantiation, is merely a hypothesis or OPINION. A theory is developed, then processing is applied. Scientific method is the ‘process’ to reach a ‘conclusion’.
No need to believe, I trust you know how to use Google. It's evident a lot of folks here rely on that way too much anyway.

Quote
No, we have to wait and see if something new is revealed towards the end of August.

Well, yeah no sh!t Captain Obvious! They had the intelligence apparently since April 2020, so I'm certain there's not much we can do at this point but, well, wait, and likely wait some more.

Quote
You were the one that asked:

I simply gave you a link to research of HIV where it seems GOF was being used.  Why complain about that? Did you not find it helpful?

A failed experiment done on something? Not really. Because it proved what I stated in my post that prompted your silly link...if GOF have an ounce of merit, THERE SHOULD've been a cure for HIV / Herpes.

Then you gave me a 22 year old failed experiment.

Quote
GQ,

you're a bright guy.  You enjoy the discourse as much as I do along with being able to take a poke here and there.  You want answers to the same questions I do, including if the bug was related to work at the lab.

I'm not like someone else who used to hang around jumping through every hoop imaginable just to try and be right, even if wrong.  I usually don't argue for the sake of argument.  If I'm wrong I'll be the first to admit such.  But can I make a simple request ?  If you want to shoot a few hoops, let's stick with a basketball instead of making me try dribbling a football.  I'm all for constructive discourse if that is what you really want.  If not, just let me know and I'll keep my replies simple instead of engaging in efforts to learn something and draw lines we both can agree on.

Go ahead and throw the BS if you still want to  :D 

No comment.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 13, 2021, 10:54:42 AM
OY!

Not exactly. Biden was pressured to the mounting evidence provided to him by the Trump administration late December 2020. Evidences that were dismissed and scorned by the Democratic congress.

How Biden came round to the Wuhan lab-leak theory | Financial Times (ft.com) (http://www.ft.com/content/923e0256-7f7e-43ef-b4fe-64c066b8b70b)

Sure, many like you and me would like to know where the virus came from. That there is political pressure to do so is obvious, but at least now there is a president who wants to look at all the possibilities and not just one.

I don't disagree with the conclusions of the article:

   
Quote
One person familiar with the situation said the National Intelligence Council, which collates information from the entire intelligence community, produced two reports last year assessing US intelligence on the origins of Covid-19. The director for national intelligence declined to comment.

Those efforts, coupled with a third “scrub” of the intelligence this year, led to Biden saying last week that two of the 18 branches of the intelligence community leaned towards the natural origin scenario, while a third was more inclined towards the lab-leak theory.

Biden said the three had only “low or moderate confidence” in their conclusions while the other branches did not have enough evidence. That has sparked concern that 90 days is not sufficient for intelligence officials to reach any solid determination.

“The community as a whole is far away from reaching anything that we could call even a halfway firm conclusion,” said Paul Pillar, a former senior CIA official. “The fact that many of the agencies involved have not reached a consensus even for a ‘low confidence’ judgment tells you they’re a long way away from anything conclusive.”


Quote
1. You inferred we somehow appreciate that gain of function allowed us to come up with a vaccine sooner than we normally could have to fight the virus.
2. I replied I couldn’t believe you said that, adding, we don’t create Franky, we don’t need to find the means to defend ourselves from him.
3. Then you reason by projecting MERS/SARS into the discussion that we should be thankful they were not as virulent as COVID-19.
4.  I stated as posted by citing COVID-19 was engineered to be *more* virulent, to which you stated it’s *my* opinion and then throw me YOUR *opinion* as fact saying we don’t yet know that.

Not knowing something is not an opinion.  It's like you asking which is better for staying healthy, apples or oranges. - I just don't know.

Quote
Fair enough. For now my *opinion* was based on the email provided to us by FOIA written to Fauci by one of his colleague who investigated and studied COVID-19, and came up to the conclusion – COVID-19 have the markings of an ENGINEERED virus.

Do show me the email you refer to so we can be on the same page.


Quote
Many times on these discussions, facts and opinions are expressed. Some are reality-based, some mythical, while some are conjured up by sheer ignorance. IF the basis of MY opinion (in this specific exchange) that a study was conducted (science) as evidenced by a once-classified exchange between scientists, where it found (scientific method) evidence, conclusive enough to raise concerns and notification, that this virus have the markings of an ENGINEERED virus. Would this still be an *opinion* to you?

Yes, it would be an opinion. 'Conclusive enough to raise concerns and notification' - sounds like a hypothesis.  Don't hesitate to point me to the page you are looking at though.

Quote
So your link/s, added nothing to what we already had in our hands. There already were evidences on hand. Biden's initial investigation order was to hand-off the duty to WHO, whom we already know is irresponsible and easily coerced by China. So, delegating an investigation to the usual suspect is an exercise in futility. That's akin to delegating migrant problems we have to his VP - Kamala Harris, man.

Of course, Biden's statement and the Senate bill don't provide information, they request it.  You seem to say that we already know it all, when we don't.  He has reports from several agencies that neither agree with each other, nor have the level of confidence needed to take any actions.

Quote
He hands off a new executive command to 'double' the effort for this investigation and report back to him in 90-days. Declassify information and evidence he already have on-hand? Takes 90-days to do that? You know, I know, I'm sure he knows - China isn't going to welcome his investigators with open arms while ushering them into the Wuhan lab and giving them all the necessary documents to insure this investigation is successful.

Again, we don't know what the intelligence services might be able to find, or not.  Is any new information available?  I don't know, nor do you.  The reports were done by separate agencies. Asking them to all get together and come out with one assessment isn't a bad idea.

Quote
So, again, what is it we have or know today - that we didn't already have? My guess - ZIP, NADA! Would this investigation prove the lab leak ('theory' at this time) conclusively confirmed simply by the evidence our intelligence have on hand - or does China need to submit their confessions before it becomes 'conclusive'?

Again, we'll have to wait to see if anything comes about, simple as that.
 
Quote
So, like the response I gave BillyB above that sprung this exchange with you and me. Fauci not only needs to get fired, he needs to spend a very long time in jail for everything he had done around this pandemic. For helping create, then politicize a deadly virus that plague not only the US, but nations beyond.

Based on what?

Quote
Funny.

Ok.

Quote
There you go, exactly what I said on my opening line in my previous post.

Now that's funny.

Quote
Now, let me continue. Your video, while entertaining, has little to NO relevance to anything above. YOU need to understand the difference between *SCIENCE* from ‘scientific method’. This way you don’t do what you just did, again. Science is a systematic study, or an attempt, to explain how things that surround us ‘work’. Scientific method is the sequential process to reach a conclusion. Where science is a study, and absent conclusive substantiation, is merely a hypothesis or OPINION. A theory is developed, then processing is applied. Scientific method is the ‘process’ to reach a ‘conclusion’.
No need to believe, I trust you know how to use Google. It's evident a lot of folks here rely on that way too much anyway.

So you want me to believe that Science does not require the Scientific Method?  Ain't happening.  You even contradict yourself with what you googled.

Quote
Well, yeah no sh!t Captain Obvious! They had the intelligence apparently since April 2020, so I'm certain there's not much we can do at this point but, well, wait, and likely wait some more.

Ok.. so now there is nothing.  So there's something, nothing, something and now nothing in one post.

Quote
A failed experiment done on something? Not really. Because it proved what I stated in my post that prompted your silly link...if GOF have an ounce of merit, THERE SHOULD've been a cure for HIV / Herpes.
Then you gave me a 22 year old failed experiment.

One learns even from a failed experiment. That's also part of the scientific method.  HIV/Herpes, sure, would be nice to kick them in the butt as well as the common cold.  We'll get there one day.  Research continues.

Quote
No comment.

Well thanks for trying to play with the same ball, even if it is a bit lopsided.  Like with others in the past, it's often best to simplify arguments, and discuss one part at a time.  Still a bit jumpy with your last post, but hey any progress is progress.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 13, 2021, 02:24:01 PM
Amazingly...he lost all faculties and knowledge in how to Google despite that's really all he'd been doing...

 :P

Quote
So you want me to believe that Science does not require the Scientific Method?
Read again and cite where I said that.

Quote
Ain't happening.  You even contradict yourself with what you googled.

Yeppers statement still stands. *Scientific Method* was not the subject of conversation nor was a point of contention, science was. Science is NOT an absolution. It stands to scrutiny. LMAO, in certain regions, science is, or can be, politically manipulated i.e causes of global warming. It's prevalence stands on the balance until it is proven wrong. Thus I brought up the matters surrounding the science of the dinosaurs - until it came to light that 'science' was erroneous and debunked.

Not my fault you (still obviously do not) couldn't make the distinction between what science is from what scientific method is. Whether you like it or not, there IS a very clear difference between the two. It'll serve you much better to be careful next time.

Quote
One learns even from a failed experiment. That's also part of the scientific method.  HIV/Herpes, sure, would be nice to kick them in the butt as well as the common cold.  We'll get there one day.  Research continues.

One more time, hopefully last...I remarked not an ounce of merit came out of GOF and cited the example of the fact no progress had been made in curing cases of HIV / Herpes. You came up with a link that (maybe you hoped I wouldn't read, or maybe you never read after Goggling for it) was done back in 1999 which concluded to what I inferred. There's still no cure for HIV or Herpes or any other viral diseases we know today despite the experiment.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 13, 2021, 05:07:41 PM
Sure, many like you and me would like to know where the virus came from. That there is political pressure to do so is obvious, but at least now there is a president who wants to look at all the possibilities and not just one.


Yes, but too bad he was demonized, scorned, collectively dismissed to be able to fully carry out what was already corroborated by enough evidence, while circumstantially or otherwise at the time.


So when I told you when Biden ordered an investigation back in January which resulted in ZIP, NANA, zilch due in large part he dimwittedly delegate the task to WHO, it - predictably - resulted into well, zip, nada, zilch.


No need to Google, let me *bring the US* to you since I understand you can't possibly 'know'.


http://youtu.be/fSaqOHypxTI


Now you say with your links that he'll 'double the effort' to investigate this even *deeper*, deeper exactly as to 'how'? Send the SEAL team to infiltrate the lab in the dark of night unbeknownst to the CCP? Gather all the evidences of *documents* destroyed over a year ago? Maybe Have Dr. Daszyk (sp) testify in Congress what he knows so we can all rest peacefully at nights going forward?


I believe the second deadly sin with this pandemic was it was politicized heavily in this country at the expense of millions of fatalities. Picture the likes of why Pelosi did in Chinatown when Trump spoke of holding China responsible for this pandemic.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on June 13, 2021, 05:48:10 PM
I believe the second deadly sin with this pandemic was it was politicized heavily in this country at the expense of millions of fatalities. Picture the likes of why Pelosi did in Chinatown when Trump spoke of holding China responsible for this pandemic.
In my opinion, trump was trying to demonize china in order to try to force them to give more concessions in other areas of business.    I wouldn't blame China, Trump, or Biden for the pandemic.  Until proven otherwise, I remain of the belief that it occurred naturally.   If somewhere down the line it is proven that the US/China created this virus, then the people of the world can righteously grumble fiercely at the lack of responsibility, and call for some sort of consequence.   Meanwhile, I continue to take my chances without the vaccine or obsessive social distancing, and I'm not dead yet.

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 13, 2021, 08:55:54 PM
Amazingly...he lost all faculties and knowledge in how to Google despite that's really all he'd been doing...

 :P
Read again and cite where I said that.

Yeppers statement still stands. *Scientific Method* was not the subject of conversation nor was a point of contention, science was. Science is NOT an absolution. It stands to scrutiny. LMAO, in certain regions, science is, or can be, politically manipulated i.e causes of global warming. It's prevalence stands on the balance until it is proven wrong. Thus I brought up the matters surrounding the science of the dinosaurs - until it came to light that 'science' was erroneous and debunked.

Not my fault you (still obviously do not) couldn't make the distinction between what science is from what scientific method is. Whether you like it or not, there IS a very clear difference between the two. It'll serve you much better to be careful next time.

One more time, hopefully last...I remarked not an ounce of merit came out of GOF and cited the example of the fact no progress had been made in curing cases of HIV / Herpes. You came up with a link that (maybe you hoped I wouldn't read, or maybe you never read after Goggling for it) was done back in 1999 which concluded to what I inferred. There's still no cure for HIV or Herpes or any other viral diseases we know today despite the experiment.

GQ,

Thanks for breaking this out into two parts.

1. Discussion on Science and the Scientific Method.
2. Discussion on Gain of Function, whether beneficial or not.

Let's look at the first.

Your Statement:

Quote
Now, let me continue. Your video, while entertaining, has little to NO relevance to anything above. YOU need to understand the difference between *SCIENCE* from ‘scientific method’. This way you don’t do what you just did, again. Science is a systematic study, or an attempt, to explain how things that surround us ‘work’. Scientific method is the sequential process to reach a conclusion. Where science is a study, and absent conclusive substantiation, is merely a hypothesis or OPINION. A theory is developed, then processing is applied. Scientific method is the ‘process’ to reach a ‘conclusion’.
No need to believe, I trust you know how to use Google. It's evident a lot of folks here rely on that way too much anyway.

My Reply:

Quote
So you want me to believe that Science does not require the Scientific Method?  Ain't happening.  You even contradict yourself with what you googled.

What was, or was not 'googled' aside, lets simplify your argument that somehow seems intended to separate Science from the Scientific Method.

Quote
Science is asystematic study, or an attempt, to explain how things that surround us ‘work’.

and

Quote
Scientific method is the sequential process to reach a conclusion. Where science is a study, and absent conclusive substantiation, is merely a hypothesis or OPINION.

I assert the Scientific Method is the 'systematic study' part, integral to Science.  'Science' as you seem to define it leaves leaves out the refining loops in the image below I marked red.

(http://i.postimg.cc/GhCmgtKd/Traditional-scientific-method-Hypothesis-based-deduction-The-central-concept-of-the.png)

Even before the Scientific Method was defined and structured as above, it was used, albeit loosely, since the beginning of time.

Let's take the age old quest to turn lead into gold, where many ingredients were mixed with molten lead, with disappointing results.  Folks never gave up and eventually did find a method to turn lead into gold, proving that it is possible using a particle accelerator in a process called transmutation.

We're using it here in our discussion as well, but it seems you desire to come to a conclusion that China somehow fiddled around with the virus and released it either by accident or with intent, based on incomplete information, or that somehow the information is being withheld from us or has already been somehow 'proven' by an email Fauci exchanged. (please do point me to that email as I am curious).  The whole point of science is to find out 'how things work', we don't disagree there.

I don't think we are that awful far apart GQ.  I am simply saying let the process go forward, and with a bit of time and effort, maybe we'll be able to find out where this virus originated. We know it did originate somewhere (except for the few who that say it was just a scam in the first place), so finding the answer is certainly possible, hopefully taking less time than transforming lead to gold.

Can we agree on this now? If not, please do show me where I am wrong. If I am somehow missing the point let me know as well. I am capable of learning.  I do admit not quite understanding what you meant with the dinosaurs, but that's another topic in itself.  Maybe comet vs volcano, vs some virus or such?

As for GOF, we have the following:
IIRC started with your statement:

Quote
False projection, BC. Those two viruses were not as virulent as COVID-19 for the simple reason they were not engineered to be one. That's the main point of gain of function. COVID-19 literally discarded, or skipped, the zoonotic process of transfer.

Hell, if you see any merit to GOF then why not spend the money and get the cure for the viruses the HIV, Herpes instead?

and I answered:

Quote
As I stated opinions abound, including the one you just posted.  We still don't know if GOF was involved or not in this outbreak.

Then:

Quote
1. You inferred we somehow appreciate that gain of function allowed us to come up with a vaccine sooner than we normally could have to fight the virus.
2. I replied I couldn’t believe you said that, adding, we don’t create Franky, we don’t need to find the means to defend ourselves from him.
3. Then you reason by projecting MERS/SARS into the discussion that we should be thankful they were not as virulent as COVID-19.
4.  I stated as posted by citing COVID-19 was engineered to be *more* virulent, to which you stated it’s *my* opinion and then throw me YOUR *opinion* as fact saying we don’t yet know that.

I do recall stating that prior research on SARS and MERS provided the insight with quickly developing vaccines for COVID, but don't believe I addressed GOF or not.  My prior statement below:

Quote
You don't remember SARS-CoV in 2002, and MERS-CoV in 2012 both more deadly than SARS-CoV-2(we call COVID-19)?  Fortunately, they were not as infectious and did not spread so fast or we would have been in really deep shit 20 years ago without any hope for a vaccine around the corner.  They are all from the same growing COVID family.

If I stated otherwise before, and in context with our current discourse please do remind me where.

To wrap things up a bit, I'm neither trying to baffle you with bullshit nor attempting to dazzle you with brilliance. I am truly enjoying discourse with you.  You are outside my 'comfort zone' with opposing views.  Much better than simply 'echoing' and backslapping as some others seem to enjoy.  In the last couple of posts we seem to be getting 'somewhere', maybe not with agreement, but at least beginning to understand better 'where we're coming from'.  That in itself is a lot around here  :D
 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 13, 2021, 09:19:37 PM

Yes, but too bad he was demonized, scorned, collectively dismissed to be able to fully carry out what was already corroborated by enough evidence, while circumstantially or otherwise at the time.

I think his error was to engage in destructive discourse, that goes nowhere.  His 'knee-jerk' reaction to anything he perceives as being negative is to blame someone else for it.  This of course lead to an environment you perceive as being 'demonized'.  As to corroboration and evidence, well that is still obviously ongoing. 


Quote
So when I told you when Biden ordered an investigation back in January which resulted in ZIP, NANA, zilch due in large part he dimwittedly delegate the task to WHO, it - predictably - resulted into well, zip, nada, zilch.

Again, we'll just have to see.


Quote
No need to Google, let me *bring the US* to you since I understand you can't possibly 'know'.

Now you say with your links that he'll 'double the effort' to investigate this even *deeper*, deeper exactly as to 'how'? Send the SEAL team to infiltrate the lab in the dark of night unbeknownst to the CCP? Gather all the evidences of *documents* destroyed over a year ago? Maybe Have Dr. Daszyk (sp) testify in Congress what he knows so we can all rest peacefully at nights going forward?

As I stated before, we don't know what is going on in the background, folks are working every day on this.  I do know that trying to work with someone is much better than working against someone.  Last year we did not really attempt to create an atmosphere of cooperation with the ongoing and incessant (even to this day) blame game.  Right now he has reports from several agencies that disagree, and Biden at least wants them to try to dig together this time around to reach some consensus, and if consensus either way is even possible.  In addition, the world wants to know what the source is, not only the US, so it is a matter of trying to work with China and not against China that has any hope of providing answers.  Would we allow hundreds of Chinese investigators and scientists into the US if some novel outbreak happens in the future?  I dunno....

Quote
I believe the second deadly sin with this pandemic was it was politicized heavily in this country at the expense of millions of fatalities. Picture the likes of why Pelosi did in Chinatown when Trump spoke of holding China responsible for this pandemic.

I fully agree with the bold part.  As for the rest, debatable but really, not worthy of the time as it has no bearing on what we really want to know.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 14, 2021, 09:16:18 AM
GQ,

Thanks for breaking this out into two parts.

1. Discussion on Science and the Scientific Method.
2. Discussion on Gain of Function, whether beneficial or not.


You better be thankful. I took some time off from wifey's riding lesson (believe it or not) so I can finish that post...

Quote
Let's look at the first.

Your Statement:

My Reply:

What was, or was not 'googled' aside, lets simplify your argument that somehow seems intended to separate Science from the Scientific Method.

and

I assert the Scientific Method is the 'systematic study' part, integral to Science.  'Science' as you seem to define it leaves leaves out the refining loops in the image below I marked red.

(http://i.postimg.cc/GhCmgtKd/Traditional-scientific-method-Hypothesis-based-deduction-The-central-concept-of-the.png)

Even before the Scientific Method was defined and structured as above, it was used, albeit loosely, since the beginning of time.

Let's take the age old quest to turn lead into gold, where many ingredients were mixed with molten lead, with disappointing results.  Folks never gave up and eventually did find a method to turn lead into gold, proving that it is possible using a particle accelerator in a process called transmutation.

We're using it here in our discussion as well, but it seems you desire to come to a conclusion that China somehow fiddled around with the virus and released it either by accident or with intent, based on incomplete information, or that somehow the information is being withheld from us or has already been somehow 'proven' by an email Fauci exchanged. (please do point me to that email as I am curious).  The whole point of science is to find out 'how things work', we don't disagree there.


I still see the struggle here. Methinks it's bordering on the point of diminishing return to what was an otherwise very simple distinction. Too many graphs, pics, presentation, etc...you remind me of Lily from AT&T commercials - *It's not Complicated*

Let me bring this back to the very basic distinction. Where science is the pool, the library, the body, of knowledge and discoveries; scientific method(ology) is the pursuit( the process) of knowledge. It is that simple, BC.


Quote
I don't think we are that awful far apart GQ.  I am simply saying let the process go forward, and with a bit of time and effort, maybe we'll be able to find out where this virus originated. We know it did originate somewhere (except for the few who that say it was just a scam in the first place), so finding the answer is certainly possible, hopefully taking less time than transforming lead to gold.


I agree in the mutual interest to learn of the genesis of the infection. But all I have been saying to you is because the Chinese government already destroyed documents, samples, even witnesses and all other evidence that would give life to the *theory* of a lab leak; controlled the investigation itself by prohibiting international scientists to conduct their own investigative work IN China; there isn't anything this latest EO is going to accomplish more than what we already have (intelligence) on hand. We can wait another 90 days, 1 year or a decade, but this isn't progressing short of China admitting total complicity of this pandemic.


We have the intelligence reports last year. What do you think is going to change EVEN IF new revelations came out of this 'investigation'? Can you even imagine *Trump was right all along!* *China admits, after compelling evidences, that they concealed to the world that this was a botched experiments gone bad!* *Trump good, China Bad!*


If China can never allow that to happen, then this administration will make sure that doesn't happen either.


Sure, we'll wait...unlike you however, I have zero faith. Especially not with this administration BC. Heck, he can't even mange to figure what to do with the border and illegal immigration problem.

Quote
Can we agree on this now? If not, please do show me where I am wrong. If I am somehow missing the point let me know as well. I am capable of learning.  I do admit not quite understanding what you meant with the dinosaurs, but that's another topic in itself.  Maybe comet vs volcano, vs some virus or such?


The science behind dinosaurs had always vacillated. That was the point of my using it as a example. Science isn't always 'absolute'. It will always remain under scrutiny. At least IMO. Dinosaurs was once believed to be ecthotherm (cold-blooded) until they discovered fossils of feathered dinosaurs in China (of all places, eh?) mid-1900s. The science behind it depends on how you distinguish it from two distinct *grouping*, Linnaean or phylogenetic.


Science once noted dinosaurs had gone extinct. Not true. Further studies have revealed an 'evolutionary' sequence of species of *modern birds* derived from dinosaurs that survived that flash point.


Which now brings us to GOF:

Quote
As for GOF, we have the following:
IIRC started with your statement:

and I answered:

Then:

I do recall stating that prior research on SARS and MERS provided the insight with quickly developing vaccines for COVID, but don't believe I addressed GOF or not.  My prior statement below:

If I stated otherwise before, and in context with our current discourse please do remind me where.

To wrap things up a bit, I'm neither trying to baffle you with bullshit nor attempting to dazzle you with brilliance. I am truly enjoying discourse with you.  You are outside my 'comfort zone' with opposing views.  Much better than simply 'echoing' and backslapping as some others seem to enjoy.  In the last couple of posts we seem to be getting 'somewhere', maybe not with agreement, but at least beginning to understand better 'where we're coming from'.  That in itself is a lot around here  :D


From what I understand, simplified, the *scientific method* of gain of function is accelerating the evolutionary process of a virus to become deadlier and more transmissible from animals to human to what would otherwise take years, decades, maybe even centuries for a virus to mutate at this level *naturally*. This *fact* alone, while further studies needs to be conducted for confirmation, gives creedence to the theory that COVID-19 is 'man-made.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 14, 2021, 09:47:16 AM
I think his error was to engage in destructive discourse, that goes nowhere.  His 'knee-jerk' reaction to anything he perceives as being negative is to blame someone else for it.  This of course lead to an environment you perceive as being 'demonized'.  As to corroboration and evidence, well that is still obviously ongoing. 


I can agree Trump's biggest fault is Donnie in the flesh. I still remember when the WHO made their first announcement (fed by CCP) that China had contained the virus in Wuhan and that it is NOT transmissible from human-to-human; that Trump bit into that hook, line and sinker. China even went on to celebrate the Lunar NY to show the world they meant what they were saying. That was early January 2020. Weeks later, he was banning travels to-fro China. The rest is history known.

Quote
As I stated before, we don't know what is going on in the background, folks are working every day on this.  I do know that trying to work with someone is much better than working against someone.  Last year we did not really attempt to create an atmosphere of cooperation with the ongoing and incessant (even to this day) blame game.  Right now he has reports from several agencies that disagree, and Biden at least wants them to try to dig together this time around to reach some consensus, and if consensus either way is even possible.  In addition, the world wants to know what the source is, not only the US, so it is a matter of trying to work with China and not against China that has any hope of providing answers.  Would we allow hundreds of Chinese investigators and scientists into the US if some novel outbreak happens in the future?  I dunno....


Already replied to above.

Quote
I fully agree with the bold part.  As for the rest, debatable but really, not worthy of the time as it has no bearing on what we really want to know.


I disagree. I think the *result* of the investigation is as important as the *process*. We are active witness to how China responds to this investigation. The worst that can happen if we maintain to remain blind to the actions China had already shown the world since the beginning of this pandemic, there will be more days of doom coming to us sooner than later.


You asked for info on who/what stated via email to Fauci that COVID-19 is man-made. It was in an email sent by Kristien (sp) Andersen, senior scientist IIRC, that looked at the virus and raised the (potentiality) that it isn't consistent to a naturally progressing virus. That it appeared to be man-made. Predictably, he inexplicably recanted all that weeks later.


It can be found The Buzz Feed FOIA-provided batch of emails made public. Getting too many phone calls right now to dig this out for you.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 15, 2021, 09:44:25 AM
SkyNews, Australia released video they got a hold of showing the experiments happening inside the Wuhan Lab all these years where they housed bats inside the lab, while performing gain of function experiments.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANRs4DojOek


Watch how WHO blatantly lied in its attempt to cover-up of China.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 15, 2021, 11:44:48 AM

I still remember when the WHO made their first announcement (fed by CCP) that China had contained the virus in Wuhan and that it is NOT transmissible from human-to-human; that Trump bit into that hook, line and sinker.



That's what fake news says and it's wrong. As soon as WHO put out a tweet Jan 14th saying the virus is not human to human transferable, Trump put out a State Department warning Jan 15th. They knew China and WHO were lying and Trump immediately went into protecting American citizens. Here's a post I made last year documenting events.





The Democrats claim Trump didn't warn people enough. Here's some stuff I posted back in April to show Democrats and liberal media not taking it serioiusly. Biden has his experts telling him about the virus and no once did Biden notify the American people it's worse than what Trump has been saying.

Trump's State Department put out a warning to Americans visiting China January 15 and later enacted travel restrictions.

http://www.physiciansweekly.com/u-s-warns-citizens-in (http://www.physiciansweekly.com/u-s-warns-citizens-in/)





January 14 - the WHO (World Health Organization) sent out a tweet declaring that there is no evidence of human-to-human transmission of the COVID-19 virus.

January 23 - Vox - "The evidence on travel bans for diseases like Coronavirus is clear: They don't work"

January 24 - Dr. Anthony Fauci National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) Director reported:
• Covid 19 It isn't something the American public needs to worry about or be frightened about, because we have ways of preparing and screening of.
• It's a very, very low risk to the United States, but it's something that we as public health officials need to take very seriously.
• However, Joe Scarborough and wife Minka had a segment where they said "no Americans need to be concerned about COVID-19 and should be more concerned about the common flu.

January 26: Fauci says Coronavirus is a very low risk to our country

January 27: Pelosi proposes legislation to bar the President from closing border

January 28: Business Insider - "flu is a far bigger threat to most people in the US than the Wuhan coronavirus"

January 29: LA Times - "The new coronavirus isn't a threat to people in the United States - but the flu is"

January 29: Joe Biden in a speech in Iowa said that Trump's idea of restricting travel from China was "Xenophobic".

January 30: WHO calls corona virus a healthcare emergency.

January 31: TRUMP CLOSES OUR BORDER to foreign nationals who had recently visited China.

• WHO recommends against closing the border.
• Democrats attack Trump as racist and xenophobic
• NYT quotes an epidemiologist as saying that Trump's decision to restrict travel from China was "more of an emotional or political reaction."
• WaPo quotes a Chinese official asking for "empathy" and slamming the White House for acting "in disregard of WHO recommendation against travel restrictions."
• Vox tweets: "Is this going to be a deadly pandemic? No." (Tweet deleted weeks later).

February 1: Washington Post - "Get a grip, America. The flu is a much bigger threat than coronavirus, for now." New York Times - "Beware the Pandemic Panic - (used to justify unnecessarily severe limits on movement and civil liberties)"

February 2: TRUMP IMPOSES QUARANTINE on American travelers who recently visited China

• WHO says virus can be easily controlled
• CNN tweets a joke to downplay threat posed by Coronavirus: "There's a virus that has infected 15 millionAmericans across the country and killed more than 8,200 people this season alone. It's not a new pandemic — it's influenza."
• NYC Health Commissioner Barbot tweets: “As we gear up to celebrate the #LunarNewYear in NYC, I want to assure New Yorkers that there is no reason for anyone to change their holiday plans, avoid the subway, or certain parts of the city because of #coronavirus."
• New York City Health Commissioner Dr. Oxiris Barbot, “The risk to New Yorkers for Coronavirus is low and our preparedness as a city is very high. There is no reason not to take the subway, not to take the bus, not to go out to your favorite restaurant, and certainly not to miss the parade next Sunday. I’m going to be there.”

February 4: Politico - "Coronavirus quarantine, travel ban could backfire, experts fear"

February 7: Health Commissioner Barbot says "We’re telling New Yorkers, go about your lives, take the subway, go out, enjoy life."

February 9: The chair of NYC Health Committee tweets: "In powerful show of defiance of #coronavirus scare, huge crowds gathering in NYC's Chinatown for ceremony ahead of annual #LunarNewYear parade. Chants of 'be strong Wuhan!' If you are staying away, you are missing out!"

February 11: Biden, through his adviser, says the evidence "suggests" the coronavirus won't be a "serious pandemic."

February 13: DeBlasio's office tweets "There are ZERO confirmed cases of coronavirus in New York City, and hundreds of Chinese restaurants that need your business! There is nothing to fear. Stop by any Chinatown for lunch or dinner!"

• De Blasio tweets "It was my honor to spend time with our Asian-American owned small businesses in Flushing today. This vibrant community is standing strong but they need YOUR support. Our Chinatowns are open for business — make some dinner plans, do some shopping and stand with our neighbors!"
• Biden, through his advisor, praises de Blasio: "We don’t have a #COVIDー19 epidemic in the US but we are starting to see a fear epidemic. Kudos to @NYCMayor (and others) for standing against that."

February 17: Fauci says risk of coronavirus infection in U.S. is "miniscule” and people shouldn't wear masks unless they are contagious.

February 24: Nancy Pelosi says from San Francisco's China Town to come visit, it is safe and "there are no Coronavirus concerns". Then SF became one of the epicenters of the disease.

February 28: CDC RECOMMENDS SOCIAL DISTANCING

February 29: Fauci says risk is low and people can continue day-to-day routines re malls, movies
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Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 15, 2021, 01:12:28 PM

That's what fake news says and it's wrong. As soon as WHO put out a tweet Jan 14th saying the virus is not human to human transferable, Trump put out a State Department warning Jan 15th. They knew China and WHO were lying and Trump immediately went into protecting American citizens. Here's a post I made last year documenting events.


BillyB-


This is a January 22, 2020 interview when Trump was in Davos early last year.

http://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/22/trump-on-coronavirus-from-china-we-have-it-totally-under-control.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/22/trump-on-coronavirus-from-china-we-have-it-totally-under-control.html)

Unless you can tell me this is actually Alec Baldwin, impersonating Donnie, making this in fact fake news (like you said), maybe a bit of caution on your part?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 15, 2021, 03:03:48 PM

BillyB-


This is a January 22, 2020 interview when Trump was in Davos early last year.

http://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/22/trump-on-coronavirus-from-china-we-have-it-totally-under-control.html (http://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/22/trump-on-coronavirus-from-china-we-have-it-totally-under-control.html)

Unless you can tell me this is actually Alec Baldwin, impersonating Donnie, making this in fact fake news (like you said), maybe a bit of caution on your part?


Actions are more important than words. While Trump says China has it totally under control, he knows they are lying and put out state department warnings and added a travel ban. We have spy agencies that monitor Chinese phones. We know what they are saying about the virus don't match up with their public statements. On the other hand, Trump could've said "China doesn't have it under control, they really F'd up and we're all doomed" using the strategy of yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater. Some people think that's irresponsible, possibly criminal.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 15, 2021, 03:14:47 PM

Actions are more important than words. While Trump says China has it totally under control, he knows they are lying and put out state department warnings and added a travel ban. We have spy agencies that monitor Chinese phones. We know what they are saying about the virus match up with their public statements. On the other hand, Trump could've said "China doesn't have it under control, they really F'd up and we're all doomed" using the strategy of yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater. Some people think that's irresponsible, possibly criminal.

My bad then. I wasn't aware you were *channeling* Trump back then.   :P

All things considered, despite some of his policies were designed to favored many folks in his suit, and I'll still call foul when called for and he did fu@ked this up by talking on both sides of his mouth in this issue. Trump was split in his haste to reap what he thought was a breakthrough trade deal with China at the time - when all the while XI threw him a curve ball by brandishing what he knew what was more in Trump's mind, and baited him a lie regarding the coronavirus at the same time. Trump bit and bit hard.

But I'm with you bruddah! Trump's still my man till the end by VIRTUE of what the silly DC numbnuts did his entire presidency.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Maxx2 on June 15, 2021, 10:46:28 PM

Scarcest thing I've read today. This is written by an American woman who has been living in the Republic of Georgia. There is a curfew here. Step outside after 11 PM and face a $600 fine. This woman is in Tbilisi waiting for a flight to go back to her home in America. Her first priority once she gets back to the States is to get the jab. She can't get it here because the vaccines are reserved for Georgian citizens.


Quote
In my humble [and likely extremely unpopular] opinion, there are few things more lovely than a never-ending curfew.
The peace of the nights here over the last year+ has been so incredibly precious. Sublime. Magical.
Humans deserve some silence to quiet their minds and soothe their souls, even if we are city-dwelling humans by choice.
I honestly don’t see it as taking our freedom away; I see it as gracing us with the gift of experiencing a time when everything seems to hold its breath.
If I were President of the World, every corner of the planet would go silent at 11pm.
I need your votes.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Maxx2 on June 15, 2021, 10:49:11 PM



She got 28 likes so far. People are accepting their servitude sad to say.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 16, 2021, 03:20:11 AM
At times, it was quite nice and serene.  Fortunately, my biz and income was not affected much, donated bonuses to others that needed it more than we did, family was together doing things we hadn't in a long time along with hobbies etc.

You could almost hear a pin drop a mile away.

Reminded me a bit of no cars on Sunday in Germany back in the 70's during the oil crisis.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on June 16, 2021, 04:16:25 PM
Scarcest thing I've read today. This is written by an American woman who has been living in the Republic of Georgia. There is a curfew here. Step outside after 11 PM and face a $600 fine.
If they would have that nationally for the USA I would wager that it cuts crime by 50%.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 17, 2021, 10:44:29 PM

Potentially bad news for mRNA vaccines

http://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/world/global-time-bomb-first-case-of-postmortem-study-of-patient-vaccinated-against-sars-cov-2-mrna-found-in-every-organ-of-the-body
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 18, 2021, 03:32:51 AM
Potentially bad news for mRNA vaccines

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971221003647

Also read about what they call 'sterile immunity' so you understand better along with understanding what vaccines do and do not. 

http://theconversation.com/coronavirus-few-vaccines-prevent-infection-heres-why-thats-not-a-problem-152204

All I can glean is that this 86-year-old with a host of health issues got one shot, then got infected, but did not die with any symptoms that could be associated with COVID.  Seems the vaccine worked.

So bottom line, even with the vaccine you can still get COVID so don't drop your guard completely.  We knew that from the outset. 

Hal says:

HAL TURNER COMMENTARY

Quote
I am not a Doctor or a Scientist so I cannot offer a competent medical analysis, but as a layman, from where I sit, this doesn't look so good.

The Postmortem report says clearly “ These results indicate that the patient had already developed relevant immunogenicity through vaccination” yet he got infected by another patient at day 24 (after vax) upon being admitted to the hospital, and died 4 days later.

Anything else new other than unfounded speculations by talk show hosts?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 18, 2021, 01:15:33 PM
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971221003647 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971221003647)




The study in the link is where Hal Turner got his info from. One of the highlights from the study is "By postmortem molecular mapping, we found viral RNA (http://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/virus-rna) in nearly all organs examined."

This is the first postmortem study so lets see if it's a one time event or will happen to everybody.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 18, 2021, 01:29:45 PM
Wouldn’t viral rna be expected when someone is infected?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 18, 2021, 01:34:58 PM
Wouldn’t viral rna be expected when someone is infected?


The deceased man took a vaccine which they confirmed triggered an immune response yet the virus was able to infect every organ of his body. Remember those three vaccine experts I posted about here? They claim that experimental vaccines not thoroughly tested can compromise our immune system making us more vulnerable to pathogens that will be able to get past defenses. Translation: Mass depopulation.


More documents leaked. Looks like Moderna and our government was working on a coronavirus vaccine Dec 2019 before China announced the the virus's existence.


Hal Turner Radio Show - DOCUMENTS: U.S. Gov't Sent "mRNA Coronavirus Vaccine Candidates" to University Researchers WEEKS BEFORE "COVID" Outbreak in China! How did they know . . . Unless they caused it? (http://halturnerradioshow.com/index.php/en/news-page/world/documents-u-s-gov-t-sent-mrna-coronavirus-vaccine-candidates-to-university-researchers-weeks-before-covid-outbreak-in-china-how-did-they-know-unless-they-caused-it)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 18, 2021, 04:21:02 PM


Finnish PM says we are experimenting with humans, telling people vaccines are safe is a fairy tale, and the government may be involved in the crime of genocide.

http://tokentube.net/v/3273793332/COVID-Vaccine-Genocide---ENGLISH-SUBTITLES---Rapsodia-fi


Head of Chinese counter intelligence in America has defected. Don't know if MSM will report this big news. He will be giving up intel on the Wuhan bio weapons program. Maybe Biden will ignore it and trust the WHO investigation. Here are other things he's revealing besides stuff on Hunter's laptop and embarrassing info on our intel community.


Early pathogenic studies of the virus we now know as SARS-CoV-2

Models of predicted COVID-19 spread and damage to the US and the world

Financial records detailing which exact organizations and governments funded the research on SARS-CoV-2 and other biological warfare research

Names of US citizens who provide intel to China

Names of Chinese spies working in the US or attending US universities

Financial records showing US businessmen and public officials who’ve received money from the Chinese government

Details of meetings US government officials had (perhaps unwittingly) with Chinese spies and members of Russia’s SVR

How the Chinese government gained access to a CIA communications system, leading to the death of dozens of Chinese people who were working with the CIA


http://beckernews.com/2-massive-chinese-spy-defects-to-usa-with-dirt-on-hunter-biden-intel-on-wuhan-bioweapons-research-39800/

http://creativedestructionmedia.com/analysis/2021/06/18/chinese-defector-may-finally-bring-down-treasonous-us-deep-state-intelligence-community/

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on June 18, 2021, 07:34:31 PM

Finnish PM says we are experimenting with humans, telling people vaccines are safe is a fairy tale, and the government may be involved in the crime of genocide.
If the vaccines are actually going to be used for genocide why would governments such as the US, Canada, Israel, be encouraging their people to get the shots?  Are nations such as Israel trying to destroy themselves?  If their goal was genocide, they would be giving the shots to the Palestinians first.  The rich nations like the US would be giving the shots to people in Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, so they can be killed off and we can take their resources.  Why would we be killing ourselves off first?  So the 3rd world people can come in and ransack an empty country?

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 19, 2021, 01:53:30 AM

The deceased man took a vaccine which they confirmed triggered an immune response yet the virus was able to infect every organ of his body. Remember those three vaccine experts I posted about here? They claim that experimental vaccines not thoroughly tested can compromise our immune system making us more vulnerable to pathogens that will be able to get past defenses. Translation: Mass depopulation.

There is nothing unexpected there at all, except your mass depopulation remark. Same will happen when you get a cold or flu, the virus goes everywhere.  A vaccine does not mean you are 100% immune.


Quote
More documents leaked. Looks like Moderna and our government was working on a coronavirus vaccine Dec 2019 before China announced the the virus's existence.


And again nothing at all unexpected.  Researchers have been working on vaccines for COVID type virus for over a decade.  How do you think we got vaccines so quick?  Because most of the footwork was done beforehand on similar bugs.  Easy, no conspiracy except in your mind.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 19, 2021, 01:25:53 PM
And again nothing at all unexpected.  Researchers have been working on vaccines for COVID type virus for over a decade.  How do you think we got vaccines so quick? 



We don't have a vaccine that was created so quick. We never had a coronavirus vaccine approved for use on humans and still don't. SARS happened almost 20 years ago and it escaped Chinese labs 6 times and although they worked on vaccines for SARS, they were never approved for use on humans.

[/size]You need a virus in hand to create a vaccine. Vaccine work on SARS may not apply to SARS2. The vaccines for SARS2 advertise 90%+ effectiveness. A slight variant of SARS2 show up, effectiveness may drop to 60%. SARS and SARS2 are very different.[size=78%]


If the vaccines are actually going to be used for genocide why would governments such as the US, Canada, Israel, be encouraging their people to get the shots?  Are nations such as Israel trying to destroy themselves?  If their goal was genocide, they would be giving the shots to the Palestinians first.  The rich nations like the US would be giving the shots to people in Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, so they can be killed off and we can take their resources.  Why would we be killing ourselves off first?  So the 3rd world people can come in and ransack an empty country?

Fathertime! 


Most 'experts' are paid and they have an interest in money and if the government inspectors approve their product, they are fine with that. I work with inspectors in construction and someone may say my work isn't adequate but I can claim it is if an inspector approves my work. Most buildings remains standing but an occasional building collapses due to shotty work. This can happen with vaccine but we are dealing with much more lives if mistakes are made. Politicians are eager to show the public they have a solution so they are more likely to push government agencies quickly approve experimental vaccines.


Earlier I brought up three experts, ex VP and chief science officer at Pfizer, ex senior project manager for epidemics at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and French Nobel Peace Prize winner on vaccines. They all are puzzled with the current strategy of vaccinating every healthy person on earth with experimental vaccines when we were able to beat pandemics and epidemics in the past with other strategies. They say the experimental vaccine may compromise our immune system making us more likely to die when the next pathogen shows up in our bodies. Maybe there's a low 1% of this happening but billions of lives are at stake. They make their claims because they sincerely care about humanity. They aren't making money and the ex Pfizer VP said he lost friends blowing the whistle on these experimental vaccines. Before 2020, if you gave someone in public an experimental vaccine or drug, it would've been a crime. Now it's legalized.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on June 19, 2021, 06:35:20 PM

Most 'experts' are paid and they have an interest in money and if the government inspectors approve their product, they are fine with that. I work with inspectors in construction and someone may say my work isn't adequate but I can claim it is if an inspector approves my work. Most buildings remains standing but an occasional building collapses due to shotty work. This can happen with vaccine but we are dealing with much more lives if mistakes are made. Politicians are eager to show the public they have a solution so they are more likely to push government agencies quickly approve experimental vaccines.


Earlier I brought up three experts, ex VP and chief science officer at Pfizer, ex senior project manager for epidemics at the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and French Nobel Peace Prize winner on vaccines. They all are puzzled with the current strategy of vaccinating every healthy person on earth with experimental vaccines when we were able to beat pandemics and epidemics in the past with other strategies. They say the experimental vaccine may compromise our immune system making us more likely to die when the next pathogen shows up in our bodies. Maybe there's a low 1% of this happening but billions of lives are at stake. They make their claims because they sincerely care about humanity. They aren't making money and the ex Pfizer VP said he lost friends blowing the whistle on these experimental vaccines. Before 2020, if you gave someone in public an experimental vaccine or drug, it would've been a crime. Now it's legalized.

I don't how any of this relates to the question of why would a country such as Israel (Where about everybody is vacinated) want to commit genocide with a poison vaccine.   If the vaccine where a way to get people to die or become sterile,  it would be administered to nations or groups of people like the Palestinians, Iranians, Venezuelans, not to Israelis, Americans, or Germans.    I think the whole notion of the vaccine being a poison to commit genocide isn't at all supported by evidence or reality. 

Fathertime!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 19, 2021, 10:12:20 PM
I don't how any of this relates to the question of why would a country such as Israel (Where about everybody is vacinated) want to commit genocide with a poison vaccine.   If the vaccine where a way to get people to die or become sterile,  it would be administered to nations or groups of people like the Palestinians, Iranians, Venezuelans, not to Israelis, Americans, or Germans.    I think the whole notion of the vaccine being a poison to commit genocide isn't at all supported by evidence or reality. 

Fathertime!


Most politicians and governments do not want to commit genocide. They lack information to make educated decisions. How many people knew what those three vaccine experts said before I posted it here? The media and big tech suppresses info from certain experts. Why? Don't everybody in the world have the right to hear all sides before injecting an experimental vaccine in their bodies?


How about we ask governments to remove protections they gave vaccine manufactures. After people are allowed to sue, lets see if vaccine manufactures continue to push their product or stop selling it. Based on their actions, we'll know if the product is safe or not.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 19, 2021, 11:22:27 PM

We don't have a vaccine that was created so quick. We never had a coronavirus vaccine approved for use on humans and still don't. SARS happened almost 20 years ago and it escaped Chinese labs 6 times and although they worked on vaccines for SARS, they were never approved for use on humans.

[/size]You need a virus in hand to create a vaccine. Vaccine work on SARS may not apply to SARS2. The vaccines for SARS2 advertise 90%+ effectiveness. A slight variant of SARS2 show up, effectiveness may drop to 60%. SARS and SARS2 are very different.[size=78%]

There you go again, spouting regurgitate straight from the swill bucket.  All this has been fully discussed, the approvals as well as a table showing prior research for vaccines developed for SARS/COVID family of virus and technologies used posted long ago.  Quite forgetful fella you are!

Are you stating fact or opinion here?  If opinion, state so.  If fact, at least attribute your source, otherwise your 'facts' are, and remain, mostly BS.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 20, 2021, 12:14:12 AM



BC, you should apply as a salesman for big pharma. I'm not buying though. Since you're big on science, I'm sure you also believed those scientists and WHO who last year said the virus was natural and couldn't have been made in a lab. Keep trusting the science!


Earlier I supplied online documents from moderna, pfizer, and the FDA saying the vaccines have emergency authorization and they aren't approved for use on humans. Usually for vaccines, full approval is granted in 7-10 years. Make no mistake, you're part of a human experiment.


Here's a reminder for everybody. In the dozen years Moderna has been in existence, they have never had a vaccine make it to phase 3 testing. The COVID vaccine was rushed and skipped phase 3 so it could enter the market under emergency authorization. Still to this date, no mRNA vaccine has ever been approved for use on humans or even approved to enter into phase 3 testing. We are still in the experimental phase experimenting on the World's population. I sincerely hope it ends well.

http://www.modernatx.com/pipeline (http://www.modernatx.com/pipeline)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 20, 2021, 02:05:03 AM


BC, you should apply as a salesman for big pharma. I'm not buying though. Since you're big on science, I'm sure you also believed those scientists and WHO who last year said the virus was natural and couldn't have been made in a lab. Keep trusting the science!

Your opinion is no better or worse than mine, and that's ok.


Quote
Earlier I supplied online documents from moderna, pfizer, and the FDA saying the vaccines have emergency authorization and they aren't approved for use on humans. Usually for vaccines, full approval is granted in 7-10 years. Make no mistake, you're part of a human experiment.


In the US, yes emergency authorization, that includes use in humans, indeed  a fact. 

In EU:

Quote
The Commission has so far given 4 conditional marketing authorisations for the vaccines developed by BioNTech and Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca and Janssen Pharmaceutica NV following EMA positive assessment of their safety and efficacy. Several other vaccines are at different stages of assessment by the European Medicines Agency.

Obviously approved for marketing and use in humans, the conditional part requiring yearly renewal and reporting for a limited time.  Fact.  Other countries various approvals.


Quote
Here's a reminder for everybody. In the dozen years Moderna has been in existence, they have never had a vaccine make it to phase 3 testing. The COVID vaccine was rushed and skipped phase 3 so it could enter the market under emergency authorization. Still to this date, no mRNA vaccine has ever been approved for use on humans or even approved to enter into phase 3 testing. We are still in the experimental phase experimenting on the World's population. I sincerely hope it ends well.

Either your opinion errs, or seems your facts are simply wrong.  Which will it be?  Again, if you are stating your opinion, that's fine.  I'm not looking it all up again for you, but do let me know if this Pfizer press release has been somehow falsified or is wrong.

http://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-conclude-phase-3-study-covid-19-vaccine

Although I believe it is ill-advised to not vaccinate, I haven't said much about your decision not to do so thus far.  You should apply the same standard to those that do make their own informed choice to vaccinate, instead of your constant diatribe you partake in that only serves to justify your own inaction.

IMO, the next wave with dominant Covid-19 variants in the fall will be quite revealing, with most victims having chosen not to vaccinate.  The more we let the virus circulate easily, the more mutations we can expect.  We're in a much different situation nowadays, with tools that can control the virus, and adapt to variants.  The only thing that can fail us is our own complacency.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 20, 2021, 03:01:13 AM
Cases are rising again in the UK up to around 10,000 infections for yesterday, mostly the more highly transmissible Indian variant it is thought. Deaths have so far been low though it is not clear whether those deaths are overrun from the last wave and whether they are in the young, elderly or those with underlying health conditions. So far a lot of the infections have been in the young as they have not been vaccinated and the new variant seems to effect the young more than the original virus did but still not likely to be life threatening to many of them.

Virus vaccine has now gotten down to offering the vaccine to the 18 plus age group. A lot of transmission is happening in schools apparently so while the current Vaccination drive for the over 18s was to run to the 31st July here in the UK odds are a program may be offered to vaccinate the under 18s.

It looks like the present thinking is that we will just ride it out this time with most of the population now Vaccinated. They reckon virus infections will peak in about two weeks time then I guess fall away.

The long term view is unclear it seems whether the vaccine will end up defeating the virus or whether we will have to live with different variants keep coming back or who knows a variant that can get around the present vaccine. It looks like the rest of the world will have to get Vaccinated as that's where variants are most likely to come from. Odds are if a variant can find too few people to infect who haven't been vaccinated it will likely due off before it can mutate. Most variants seem to be where virus cases have really risen through many cases.

So hopefully the vaccine will solve the problem, if not odds are foreign travel abroad will be off the menu and it will just be dating at home as bringing in new variants will be too big a risk if they end up defeating the present vaccine. That or we will have to all get a new vaccine update every so often.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on June 20, 2021, 06:05:35 AM
There you go again, spouting regurgitate straight from the swill bucket.  All this has been fully discussed, the approvals as well as a table showing prior research for vaccines developed for SARS/COVID family of virus and technologies used posted long ago.  Quite forgetful fella you are!

Are you stating fact or opinion here?  If opinion, state so.  If fact, at least attribute your source, otherwise your 'facts' are, and remain, mostly BS.

Here is another opinion with a solid basis in facts. If you are following the science as you have so often claimed, give me your opinion on this lady's research. I have never claimed to know 'why' the rush to get such an untested synthetic into everybody on earth (and still don't) this may offer some insight. A question you should ask yourself is why the world stops literally everything to do so for a virus they claim kills .02% of the population. Btw, dying of covid and with covid are two separate things that is conveniently glossed over in your sacred media sources

http://www.bitchute.com/video/GMtUZfHuQNlL/ (http://www.bitchute.com/video/GMtUZfHuQNlL/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: fathertime on June 20, 2021, 07:11:11 AM

Most politicians and governments do not want to commit genocide. They lack information to make educated decisions. 

So you believe you have better information than the Israelis on COVID.  I seriously doubt that.  The Israelis have a  huge desire to self preserve, and if they deemed the vaccinations ok for their people (Almost 100% vaccinated) then I think the vaccine isn't a genocidal timebomb.    Your opinion may be different, but it is rather small in comparison to those from the other viewpoint. 

. How many people knew what those three vaccine experts said before I posted it here? The media and big tech suppresses info from certain experts. Why? Don't everybody in the world have the right to hear all sides before injecting an experimental vaccine in their bodies?
 

There are always going to be some people that don't agree.  There will never be unanimous agreement.  If that were the standard absolutely nothing would get done about anything. 

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 20, 2021, 08:26:45 AM

In EU:


The Commission has so far given 4 conditional marketing authorisations for the vaccines developed by BioNTech and Pfizer, Moderna, AstraZeneca and Janssen Pharmaceutica NV following EMA positive assessment of their safety and efficacy.

Obviously approved for marketing and use in humans, the conditional part requiring yearly renewal and reporting for a limited time.  Fact.  Other countries various approvals.


Conditional marketing authorizations. None of those words sounds like full approval to be used on humans. In the link below you will see FDA make statements like this on every vaccine. Even they don't fully understand the risks AND benefits of the experimental vaccine they have given emergency authorization to.

FDA has authorized the emergency use of the Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine, which is not an FDA approved vaccine.

• The recipient or their caregiver has the option to accept or refuse the Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine.

• The significant known and potential risks and benefits of the Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine, and the extent to which such risks and benefits are unknown.

http://www.fda.gov/media/146304/download



So you believe you have better information than the Israelis on COVID.  I seriously doubt that.


While the virus is dangerous and devastating on economies, in 19 months, less than 4 million people have been lost worldwide. In less than 6 months over 19 million people been aborted and many people aren't concerned about that. We should react to the virus but it seems we are over reacting which is not good. Panicking can lead to toilet paper shortages and happily injecting experimental vaccines into our bodies.



There are always going to be some people that don't agree.  There will never be unanimous agreement.  If that were the standard absolutely nothing would get done about anything. 


If three leading vaccine experts in the industry called for a pause on this worldwide vaccine program so their opinion can be discussed among experts at the UN, what is wrong with that? Billions of people's lives are at stake when asking healthy people to take experimental vaccines. The overwhelming majority of people have immune systems that can handle the virus just fine. It's the old and sick, people with compromised immune systems, that need the attention.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 20, 2021, 09:32:50 AM
Here is another opinion with a solid basis in facts. If you are following the science as you have so often claimed, give me your opinion on this lady's research. I have never claimed to know 'why' the rush to get such an untested synthetic into everybody on earth (and still don't) this may offer some insight. A question you should ask yourself is why the world stops literally everything to do so for a virus they claim kills .02% of the population. Btw, dying of covid and with covid are two separate things that is conveniently glossed over in your sacred media sources

A good question FP, but first would like to point you out to the great powers of persuasion.  It's not new and has been used by many species and humans in both positive and unfortunately very negative ways throughout history. But let's keep it simple.  One of my first jobs was selling a financial instrument.  The basis of selling is pretty much the same for all products, and there are very many verbal techniques that can quickly and efficiently convince folks they are somehow missing out or need this newfangled product that I can give them.  I did not continue long with this line of work, because it was simply wrong.  Any successful sales force will be well-trained in all the little tricks and tips of the trade…

I did watch a decent bit of the video in the link you posted and could fairly easily identify the mix of 'ancient aliens' along with several basic verbal sales techniques. Also, some stuff like being able to answer a question that doesn't have an answer, but still will give the audience an impression the answer was provided.

A lot is presentation as well.  Here is a rather famous one.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ac7G7xOG2Ag

People can and do believe the most outlandish ideas expressed by those they trust, or seem more knowledgeable.  How many million gallons of snake oil were sold?  The power of persuasion has increased manyfold with our new ways of communicating with each other.  Audio, video and text can be put together by normal folks that are as effective as those where whole advertising and production companies were involved.

Regarding your question in bold above, the facts available seem to dispute your hypothesis, mainly the graph below that has been posted several times over the last year.  IIRC BillyB at that time used the same chart as an example that excess deaths were not reflecting what was being reported, and would be comfortable with his rationale excess deaths remained as they were at the time.  They didn't and the data for excess deaths far exceeded anything we thought was possible back then.  Had the data shown that excess deaths did not rise notably, I would be agreeing with you and BillyB today.

(http://i.postimg.cc/7LM9w80Z/Screen-Shot-2021-06-20-at-17-58-40.png)

The facts clearly show that COVID-19 is a serious killer that needs to be reckoned with. There is no question of what folks died of, whether with or of. It could have been far worse, and in some countries is worse.

So the question seems more about whom to trust and which solutions would work.  I ended up trusting Dr. Sahin and Dr. Türeci, the husband and wife team who developed the BioNTech vaccine in Germany.  My wife and daughter just got the Sputnik V vaccine less than an hour ago, which I believe will also work great and is based on more standard technology, with the quirk of using two adenovirus vectors.

(http://i.postimg.cc/0QzLQyfC/Screen-Shot-2021-06-20-at-18-14-13.png)
real photo btw, and nothing metal is sticking.

I have my second shot tomorrow afternoon and nothing will stick to me either except a band-aid.  At the risk of looking and sounding really stupid, I'll try to bring a good magnet with me.  Will you take my word for it that the magnet did not attract the vial or syringe?

Remember FP, I'm not trying to convince you or BillyB or anyone else to get the shot.  I suggest you do, but  I'm not going to twist your arm.  Don't twist mine either.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on June 20, 2021, 09:59:50 AM
I have had the Pfizer vaccine for several months now.

The side effects are that I am better looking and have a higher IQ.
This has been verified by several people and by standard IQ tests.
Some of my toes are starting to curl.  After they all have curled, I will be able to wear a smaller sized shoe.

Also, I have a higher sex drive but my peter has shrank.

But my wife is now home (arrived last evening) and this morning she never complained about peter size.  Maybe she was just so interested in having sex that she never noticed.

To rectify this situation, all I have to do is look on Internet and buy one of the many products available to increase peter size.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: John Gaunt on June 20, 2021, 10:16:10 AM
I have had the Pfizer vaccine for several months now.

The side effects are that I am better looking and have a higher IQ.
This has been verified by several people and by standard IQ tests.
Some of my toes are starting to curl.  After they all have curled, I will be able to wear a smaller sized shoe.

Also, I have a higher sex drive but my peter has shrank.

But my wife is now home (arrived last evening) and this morning she never complained about peter size.  Maybe she was just so interested in having sex that she never noticed.

To rectify this situation, all I have to do is look on Internet and buy one of the many products available to increase peter size.

Beware of fake news.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on June 20, 2021, 10:43:02 AM
A good question FP, but first would like to point you out to the great powers of persuasion.  It's not new and has been used by many species and humans in both positive and unfortunately very negative ways throughout history. But let's keep it simple.  One of my first jobs was selling a financial instrument.  The basis of selling is pretty much the same for all products, and there are very many verbal techniques that can quickly and efficiently convince folks they are somehow missing out or need this newfangled product that I can give them.  I did not continue long with this line of work, because it was simply wrong.  Any successful sales force will be well-trained in all the little tricks and tips of the trade…

As you often do BC, you're missing the bigger point. I will disagree that Polly is selling anything. The lady does research and she's quite good at it. Rather than accepting what she's told by the powers that be, she questions it, researches it and is always quite candid in her results whether they prove her point or not.

Quote
I did watch a decent bit of the video in the link you posted and could fairly easily identify the mix of 'ancient aliens' along with several basic verbal sales techniques. Also, some stuff like being able to answer a question that doesn't have an answer, but still will give the audience an impression the answer was provided.

You should have watched it all, you missed a lot. If there was a sales pitch in that, it would have been from Dr Persinger. The fact remains, there are magnetic properties in the masks, swabs and vaccines. According to Persinger these are essential elements for mind control of an individual or the masses.

Quote
A lot is presentation as well.  Here is a rather famous one.


The ability to spot bulls*it is a talent very few folks have these days otherwise everyone would have spotted the snake oil being peddled by the so called scientists. BTW that thing would never get off the ground without the Flux capacitor

Quote
People can and do believe the most outlandish ideas expressed by those they trust, or seem more knowledgeable.  How many million gallons of snake oil were sold?  The power of persuasion has increased manyfold with our new ways of communicating with each other.  Audio, video and text can be put together by normal folks that are as effective as those where whole advertising and production companies were involved.

Exactly. Brain washing of the masses

Quote
Regarding your question in bold above, the facts available seem to dispute your hypothesis, mainly the graph below that has been posted several times over the last year.  IIRC BillyB at that time used the same chart as an example that excess deaths were not reflecting what was being reported, and would be comfortable with his rationale excess deaths remained as they were at the time.  They didn't and the data for excess deaths far exceeded anything we thought was possible back then.  Had the data shown that excess deaths did not rise notably, I would be agreeing with you and BillyB today.

You're overlooking the fact that the cure for a period of time was much more deadly than the virus. I know you won't believe it but I'm responding to this for the other folks reading. EX: pushing a virus harmful to older folks into nursing homes and treating them with a ventilator is a death sentence. Your highly praised scientists knew this. Yes the same one's responsible for the virus. The death numbers were much the same compared to the prior year until it was pointed out to be the case. Then yes there was a sudden spike. More proof that they were lying to you from the beginning. The numbers are a lie


Quote
I have my second shot tomorrow afternoon and nothing will stick to me either except a band-aid.  At the risk of looking and sounding really stupid, I'll try to bring a good magnet with me.  Will you take my word for it that the magnet did not attract the vial or syringe?

Remember FP, I'm not trying to convince you or BillyB or anyone else to get the shot.  I suggest you do, but  I'm not going to twist your arm.  Don't twist mine either.

I've never tried to convince you of anything BC, just pointing out the fallacies of your statements. You seem to be following the same logic that allowed Hitler to kill 6 million. I'm not even asking that you believe it, just consider it. You very likely are wrong
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 20, 2021, 10:58:55 AM
Regarding your question in bold above, the facts available seem to dispute your hypothesis, mainly the graph below that has been posted several times over the last year.  IIRC BillyB at that time used the same chart as an example that excess deaths were not reflecting what was being reported, and would be comfortable with his rationale excess deaths remained as they were at the time.  They didn't and the data for excess deaths far exceeded anything we thought was possible back then.  Had the data shown that excess deaths did not rise notably, I would be agreeing with you and BillyB today.





While COVID causes deaths and action should be taken, you're failing to included the fact even the FDA doesn't know the risks and benefits of the vaccine. I told you this in the past and supplied links but you're still debating me today. The cure could be worse than the problem. Nobody knows for sure, not even the experts. You are part of an experiment In 5-10 years we may learn you have health problems due to the vaccine and life expectancy decreased 15 years. We may learn females have a harder time to reproduce and more children are born with birth defects.


Why do governments, scientific experts and media fail to give you the info I'm providing before they ask you to inject a product into your body? I understand most people don't read the fine print but they have not even offered people the fine print but they got their butts covered in a court of law saying the fine print could be accessed by anybody who knew how to google for it. Don't you think they have a responsibility to directly tell people they lack confidence in the product they are asking people to put into their bodies? They want at least 70% of the people to take the vaccine and by telling the full truth, they know they won't achieve that so they intentionally keep people ignorant.


These same folks lied to us that the virus couldn't be made in a lab. I knew they were lying from the beginning. What are the chances the virus of the century was found next door to the only lab in China qualified to house it? When a couple of people die from the bird flu, governments kill hundreds of millions of birds. When the virus of the century showed up, government killed no animals. Why? Because this virus never came from an animal.


These same folks will will tell you we had the safest most secure election in history and we have massive global warming problems so we need to raise taxes. When will people learn these people do not tell the truth and do not have our best interest at heart?


BC, you say I've been offering opinions on this vaccine issue and you believe you possess facts because they told you what is fact. They lied to you. Read the fine print.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 20, 2021, 11:01:31 AM
FP,

the fallacies of my statements? Where?  Everything?  Yep, that's an easy way out of discourse.

I think you are having difficulty reconciling yourself with the facts, and not me or anyone else.

I see Godwin's law works like a charm when everything else fails.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 20, 2021, 11:06:27 AM
BC, you say I've been offering opinions on this vaccine issue and you believe you possess facts because they told you what is fact. They lied to you. Read the fine print.

BillyB,

You have always been good at throwing in the proverbial kitchen sink and discourse fallacies.  I've offered before, and the offer still stands.  Pick a single, simple topic and let's go through it piece by piece through to the end.  Seems you have difficulty with that. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 20, 2021, 11:17:30 AM



Here's something simple. The FDA website says the risks and benefits pertaining to vaccines are unknown. Can you agree with that your do you have experts that can vouch the vaccines are safe and effective? Once you get on the same page as me, we won't be disagreeing on the safety and risks of vaccines as often.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 20, 2021, 11:43:05 AM

Here's something simple. The FDA website says the risks and benefits pertaining to vaccines are unknown. Can you agree with that your do you have experts that can vouch the vaccines are safe and effective? Once you get on the same page as me, we won't be disagreeing on the safety and risks of vaccines as often.

Good start BillyB!

In order to maintain correct context, that we're both talking about the same thing, can you provide a link to the page where the text you referenced appears? 

Here is the link to the EMA version:  http://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/ema-recommends-first-covid-19-vaccine-authorisation-eu

Quote
EMA’s human medicines committee (CHMP) has completed its rigorous evaluation of Comirnaty, concluding by consensus that sufficiently robust data on the quality, safety and efficacy of the vaccine are now available to recommend a formal conditional marketing authorisation. This will provide a controlled and robust framework to underpin EU-wide vaccination campaigns and protect EU citizens.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 20, 2021, 12:30:09 PM
Here is the link to the EMA version:  http://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/ema-recommends-first-covid-19-vaccine-authorisation-eu (http://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/ema-recommends-first-covid-19-vaccine-authorisation-eu)



Here we go again talking about the same thing. I feel you're trying too hard to validate the reason you took the vaccine.  "Conditional marketing authorization" is not full approval of a vaccine or medicine. There is a link in your website that says this authorization is granted with less data normally required. In other words, data is missing because not every study has concluded.


Here's the FDA's website. Go to page 4. The FDA has available every study you posted here and more. It's easy for you to say something is safe and effective repeating media garbage citing some study but for those in charge who may face criminal charges for lying, they conclude risks and benefits of vaccines are unknown. Time is needed to conduct studies on vaccines and drugs. No amount of money thrown at a study can replace time.


http://www.fda.gov/media/146304/download (http://www.fda.gov/media/146304/download)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 20, 2021, 12:47:00 PM
BillyB,

I'm just trying to establish a 1:1 context that can be discussed, and you've already grown to putting folks in jail.  Not very constructive or? But hey lets try to stay on track here.

The BioNTech vaccine was the first approved EUA in the US and EMA in EU so presents us with decent comparative material to discuss.

Instead of the 'FACT SHEET FOR HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS ADMINISTERING VACCINE (VACCINATION PROVIDERS)', which contains a lot of the same generic blurb you'll hear in any pharmaceutical advertisement or description, lets look at the current FDA EUA letter itself which is more detailed and informative for the context of this discussion.

(http://i.postimg.cc/SRf4z0Ds/Screen-Shot-2021-06-20-at-20-58-17.png)

http://www.fda.gov/media/144412/download page 2

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 21, 2021, 12:47:31 AM
BillyB,

Considering our short, but productive exchange, do you still stand by your original statement  "The FDA website says the risks and benefits pertaining to vaccines are unknown."

Or, considering the FDA information submitted above, can we agree to the following statement as a baseline-fact for further discourse?

FDA reviewed data from phase 1,2 and 3 data and found that the potential benefits outweigh known and potential risks of the vaccine in humans 12 years and older.

Although the above applies to the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine, the same/similar phrases appear in other FDA Letters of Authorization, even for the J&J vaccine that differs only with the ages approved (18 years instead of 12).

http://www.fda.gov/media/146303/download

Ready for the next one?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 21, 2021, 09:39:49 AM
Oh.. and BTW..


(http://i.postimg.cc/d1qKH0WJ/Screen-Shot-2021-06-21-at-18-37-32.png)


video here:   http://streamable.com/039edy


As expected, no magnetic properties at all in its most potent form.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 21, 2021, 01:18:27 PM


(http://i.postimg.cc/SRf4z0Ds/Screen-Shot-2021-06-20-at-20-58-17.png)

http://www.fda.gov/media/144412/download (http://www.fda.gov/media/144412/download) page 2




Funny video BC. Thanks for making me famous but how do I know that is an mRNA vaccine in there instead of water?  ;)

I can agree that the FDA once said "it is reasonable to believe the benefits outweigh the risks" back on Dec 11, 2020. It's a statement that has a hint of doubt in the product but expresses enough confidence to say it's okay. But after reviewing more data and observing what it's doing on the population, the FDA changed their stance  in April for the J and J vaccine expressing much more doubt and less confidence by saying "Risks and benefits pertaining to vaccines are unknown. That statement is also in the moderna and pfizer notes in link below. Check out the date on that paperwork.

http://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download

http://www.fda.gov/media/144637/download


The FDA is now making a 100% true statement when they say the risks and benefits of COVID vaccines are unknown. Usually when I debate people on the left, they tell me to listen to and trust the science. There should be no more debate since the truth as been revealed if we listen to and trust the inspectors(FDA) of those scientists.


Knowing how long it takes to develop a safe and effective vaccine or drug, it's common sense that the current vaccines being pushed may cause more harm than benefit. It takes 'time' to learn all this. When this experiment on you and others are finished in 7+ years, they can write a more accurate report on if the vaccine was a success or not. In the mean time, they will be asking you to take more experimental vaccine shots.


I'm not anti vaccine. If I was 85 yo and had a 20% chance of dying from COVID, I would take an experimental vaccine. Every few years I take a flu shot. What is irresponsible is our government and scientific community are vaccinating perfectly healthy people with an adequate immune system against COVID with a vaccine that may cause more harm than help. Their experiment affects billions of lives and if they are wrong, billions of people will have health problems and die early.


I asked people I know if they were told that the risks and benefits of vaccines are unknown before given the shot. They said "no". If they were told the truth, they may have changed their minds. My wife has given hundreds of people shots and she didn't tell them about what I showed you guys. Don't you think it's irresponsible to give people an experimental drug or vaccine without telling them that the benefits and risks of the drug or vaccine are unknown? People have the right to know about the product going into their body. They shouldn't need to google for truth like I have. What is going on is not ethical. This, among other things is why many people currently don't have trust in our government, medical and scientific communities.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 21, 2021, 02:31:40 PM

Funny video BC. Thanks for making me famous but how do I know that is an mRNA vaccine in there instead of water?  ;)

Oh, no worries about that.  You just saw a clip and not the video in its entirety, talking to the docs, having to go back for a skipped signature etc.  But you know it's real and that's just fine.

Here's the rest...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRkaWQJFkBQ

Quote
I can agree that the FDA once said "it is reasonable to believe the benefits outweigh the risks" back on Dec 11, 2020. It's a statement that has a hint of doubt in the product but expresses enough confidence to say it's okay. But after reviewing more data and observing what it's doing on the population, the FDA changed their stance  in April for the J and J vaccine expressing much more doubt and less confidence by saying "Risks and benefits pertaining to vaccines are unknown. That statement is also in the moderna and pfizer notes in link below. Check out the date on that paperwork.

http://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download

http://www.fda.gov/media/144637/download

About these links you posted regarding the statements you refer to, do read the title "FACT SHEET FOR HEALTHCARE PROVIDERS ADMINISTERING VACCINE
(VACCINATION PROVIDERS)"
along with the revision date on the bottom of the pages reflecting 19 May 2021, along with the authorization letters between FDA and the companies with later dates.  What your documents are is standard 'blurb', like information provided in the packaging of medical supplies etc., or maybe a better example the statement when you buy a new car stating that your actual MPG may differ from that on the sticker. Yes, it says what you say it says, but the letters are more authoritative and up to date.

I believe if you take this into consideration, and review the document dates, you'll find my stance justified.

Quote
The FDA is now making a 100% true statement when they say the risks and benefits of COVID vaccines are unknown. Usually when I debate people on the left, they tell me to listen to and trust the science. There should be no more debate since the truth as been revealed if we listen to and trust the inspectors(FDA) of those scientists.

Knowing how long it takes to develop a safe and effective vaccine or drug, it's common sense that the current vaccines being pushed may cause more harm than benefit. It takes 'time' to learn all this. When this experiment on you and others are finished in 7+ years, they can write a more accurate report on if the vaccine was a success or not. In the mean time, they will be asking you to take more experimental vaccine shots.


I'm not anti vaccine. If I was 85 yo and had a 20% chance of dying from COVID, I would take an experimental vaccine. Every few years I take a flu shot. What is irresponsible is our government and scientific community are vaccinating perfectly healthy people with an adequate immune system against COVID with a vaccine that may cause more harm than help. Their experiment affects billions of lives and if they are wrong, billions of people will have health problems and die early.


I asked people I know if they were told that the risks and benefits of vaccines are unknown before given the shot. They said "no". If they were told the truth, they may have changed their minds. My wife has given hundreds of people shots and she didn't tell them about what I showed you guys. Don't you think it's irresponsible to give people an experimental drug or vaccine without telling them that the benefits and risks of the drug or vaccine are unknown? People have the right to know about the product going into their body. They shouldn't need to google for truth like I have. What is going on is not ethical. This, among other things is why many people currently don't have trust in our government, medical and scientific communities.

As to this last part of your post, it is a bit too much to chew at one time so won't attempt it now, but have no problem taking it a bite at a time, but that's up to you.  Don't hesitate.

You may well have a point about what folks are told or not told about the vaccine.  The FDA does provide the "FACT SHEET FOR RECIPIENTS AND CAREGIVERS" which is what all those getting vaccines should have in their hand.

http://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download

That states something like this:

Quote
The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine has not undergone the same type of review as
an FDA-approved or cleared product. FDA may issue an EUA when certain criteria are
met, which includes that there are no adequate, approved, available alternatives. In
addition, the FDA decision is based on the totality of scientific evidence available
showing that the product may be effective to prevent COVID-19 during the COVID-19
pandemic and that the known and potential benefits of the product outweigh the known
and potential risks of the product.
All of these criteria must be met to allow for the
product to be used in the treatment of patients during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Revision date 10 May 2021

Folks not being given this information is of course wrong, but again that may be some report you received and obviously not personal experience, so beware.  I was provided the same information when I logged in to retrieve my set appointment date.  In addition, I sat in front of a fully qualified MD before each shot who went over my health questionnaire, asked a few questions about medical history and suggested the vaccine that best fit my needs.  Today I was asked about any reaction to the first shot and made aware that this time the reaction may be increased and not to wait too long before taking a common fever medication if I do get a higher fever. 

To be honest, I was not expecting the level of professionalism that I experienced here.  Very competent and very efficient with no rush at all.  It is likely similar where you live, but ya got to try to find out. :)

In any case, this has been a pleasing interaction, BillyB, with little disagreement.  Looking forward to your next pick.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 22, 2021, 01:47:14 AM
Have you only just had your second jab BC? Where are you having this done? In Italy?

I had my second jab just a little over two weeks ago now and I'm in my early to mid forties, but then I'm in a first rate nation, the UK, not a third world EU country ;D
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 22, 2021, 01:58:56 AM
Yes, second and in Italy.

Received the electronic barcoded EU digital certificate 'green pass' as well for travels events etc.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 22, 2021, 06:02:15 AM
Have you only just had your second jab BC? Where are you having this done? In Italy?

I had my second jab just a little over two weeks ago now and I'm in my early to mid forties, but then I'm in a first rate nation, the UK, not a third world EU country ;D

I often wondered how the prophecy of the zombie apocalypse got started. Now I wonder no more!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 22, 2021, 03:20:11 PM
The UK's Professor Chris Whitty who is leading the UK's response to the virus, some interesting comments here:

"Chris Whitty issues worrying Covid warning for next 'two or three years' | Bournemouth Echo" http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/19382113.amp/

Seems to suggest that further Vaccinations may become needed to deal with the variants in the next two to three years. Also mentions after that development of a polyvalent vaccine whatever that is, my guess a vaccine that can deal with many strains and or updates as it goes, to then deal with the virus.

My guess is that places like India might struggle to ever fully vaccinate their population it is so large as so virus variants will keep developing. Seems uncertain how things will go though but Prof Whitty seems to be taking the line that the likelyhood is that it's likely going to be an ongoing situation for the next few years at least. Guess being in a good western nation at the forefront of responding to the virus is a good place to be in all of this :)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 22, 2021, 06:22:54 PM
You may well have a point about what folks are told or not told about the vaccine.  The FDA does provide the "FACT SHEET FOR RECIPIENTS AND CAREGIVERS" which is what all those getting vaccines should have in their hand.

http://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download (http://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download)

That states something like this:

Revision date 10 May 2021

Folks not being given this information is of course wrong, but again that may be some report you received and obviously not personal experience, so beware.  I was provided the same information when I logged in to retrieve my set appointment date.  In addition, I sat in front of a fully qualified MD before each shot who went over my health questionnaire, asked a few questions about medical history and suggested the vaccine that best fit my needs.  Today I was asked about any reaction to the first shot and made aware that this time the reaction may be increased and not to wait too long before taking a common fever medication if I do get a higher fever. 



How many people here that got the jab got paperwork saying the risks and benefits of the vaccine are unknown? Everybody I talked to including my parents say they signed something but didn't read it and don't think there was many pages to read. There's two dozen pages. I can't image those using drive through vaccination sites reading two dozen pages before getting the jab.


Ads, celebrities, government officials etc... say the vaccine should be taken. There are no ads saying the risks and benefits are unknown. One sided advertising and the creation of quick easy access vaccination sites are done to get at least 70% of the population vaccinated. They do not want to scare people with the truth.




The UK's Professor Chris Whitty who is leading the UK's response to the virus, some interesting comments here:

"Chris Whitty issues worrying Covid warning for next 'two or three years' | Bournemouth Echo" http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/19382113.amp/ (http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/19382113.amp/)

Seems to suggest that further Vaccinations may become needed to deal with the variants in the next two to three years. Also mentions after that development of a polyvalent vaccine whatever that is, my guess a vaccine that can deal with many strains and or updates as it goes, to then deal with the virus.



Another article to scare us. Current vaccines loses efficacy against variants. The three experts I mentioned previously said our immune system can handle the variants as easily as the original virus. I'm sure they'll be asking you to take another experimental vaccine before winter arrives. They aren't announcing it now because they don't want to alarm the public but I know they are currently working on the vaccines.




Two videos in the link below of Dr. Yeadon from England. He graduated top of his class, former VP and Chief Science officer at Pfizer, and started his own biotech company which he later sold for $350 million dollars. He's not some youtube or government hand picked doctor to make statements to fit the narrative. He's well qualified to speak on the matter of vaccines yet mainstream media and government want him silenced. Earlier I posted his remarks that the current vaccines can lead to mass depopulation. He's alarmed at the FDA's approval that children get vaccinated. Currently WHO doesn't recommend children getting vaccinated. Dr. Yeadon says they tested in a strange way and it's not known if the vaccines are truly effective. He feels the vaccines were fraudulently approved for emergency use.

http://citizensoftheamericanrepublic.org/2021/06/09/dr-yeadon-warns-children-50-times-more-likely-to-die-from-covid-vaccine-than-from-virus/ (http://citizensoftheamericanrepublic.org/2021/06/09/dr-yeadon-warns-children-50-times-more-likely-to-die-from-covid-vaccine-than-from-virus/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 23, 2021, 12:07:10 AM

How many people here that got the jab got paperwork saying the risks and benefits of the vaccine are unknown? Everybody I talked to including my parents say they signed something but didn't read it and don't think there was many pages to read. There's two dozen pages. I can't image those using drive through vaccination sites reading two dozen pages before getting the jab.


The 24 pages is not the fact sheet for recipients/caregivers. It is the one for providers.

http://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download

It clearly states:

Quote
The vaccination provider must communicate to the individual receiving the
Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine or their caregiver, information
consistent with the “Fact Sheet for Recipients and Caregivers” prior to the
individual receiving Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine.

So of course those that receive the vaccine should receive the information for whatever vaccine they receive.  The fact sheets are 6 pages.

Moderna http://www.fda.gov/media/144638/download

Quote
The Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine has not undergone the same type of review as an FDAapproved or cleared product. FDA may issue an EUA when certain criteria are met, which
includes that there are no adequate, approved, and available alternatives. In addition, the FDA
decision is based on the totality of the scientific evidence available showing that the product may
be effective to prevent COVID-19 during the COVID-19 pandemic and that the known and
potential benefits of the product outweigh the known and potential risks of the product.

Pfizer http://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download

Quote
based on the totality of scientific evidence available
showing that the product may be effective to prevent COVID-19 during the COVID-19
pandemic and that the known and potential benefits of the product outweigh the known
and potential risks of the product


Janssen http://www.fda.gov/media/146305/download

Quote
the FDA decision is based on
the totality of scientific evidence available showing that the product may be effective to prevent
COVID-19 during the COVID-19 pandemic and that the known and potential benefits of the
product outweigh the known and potential risks of the product
.

Quote
Ads, celebrities, government officials etc... say the vaccine should be taken. There are no ads saying the risks and benefits are unknown. One sided advertising and the creation of quick easy access vaccination sites are done to get at least 70% of the population vaccinated. They do not want to scare people with the truth.


These folks are not profiting from the vaccine, nor do they mention specific products.  Maybe go through the process yourself and see what kind of information is given to you or not instead of dismissing truth outright, based on no knowledge.  After you have received the information from those holding syringes, you can always say you don't want it.  No one will twist your arm.  Give it a try and let us know how it went.  If there were any lapses, or you felt you were not properly informed, you can do your civil duty and take it up with those leading the effort at your chosen location.


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 23, 2021, 06:01:41 AM

Another article to scare us. Current vaccines loses efficacy against variants. The three experts I mentioned previously said our immune system can handle the variants as easily as the original virus. I'm sure they'll be asking you to take another experimental vaccine before winter arrives. They aren't announcing it now because they don't want to alarm the public but I know they are currently working on the vaccines.




Two videos in the link below of Dr. Yeadon from England. He graduated top of his class, former VP and Chief Science officer at Pfizer, and started his own biotech company which he later sold for $350 million dollars. He's not some youtube or government hand picked doctor to make statements to fit the narrative. He's well qualified to speak on the matter of vaccines yet mainstream media and government want him silenced. Earlier I posted his remarks that the current vaccines can lead to mass depopulation. He's alarmed at the FDA's approval that children get vaccinated. Currently WHO doesn't recommend children getting vaccinated. Dr. Yeadon says they tested in a strange way and it's not known if the vaccines are truly effective. He feels the vaccines were fraudulently approved for emergency use.

http://citizensoftheamericanrepublic.org/2021/06/09/dr-yeadon-warns-children-50-times-more-likely-to-die-from-covid-vaccine-than-from-virus/ (http://citizensoftheamericanrepublic.org/2021/06/09/dr-yeadon-warns-children-50-times-more-likely-to-die-from-covid-vaccine-than-from-virus/)

The current vaccine loses some effectiveness with the variants. My thoughts on this a few days/weeks back was that I thought that from here on out we were supposed to let our immune system go the final distance on the variants that the vaccine would just take away the worst of it and nearly all of us would survive in taking such an approach. Prof Whitty though seems to take a different line on a totally vaccine based approach. While I don't wish to put any family members at risk I rather think that we should try and go for the two dose original vaccine then let our immune systems take the final leg of the journey. Relying on vaccines too much I'm not sure is going to be the solution in the long run. At this moment I'm not planning on getting anymore Coronavirus vaccines unless there seems to be a real reason to in my view.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 23, 2021, 08:31:07 AM
The 24 pages is not the fact sheet for recipients/caregivers. It is the one for providers.

http://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download (http://www.fda.gov/media/144413/download)

It clearly states:

So of course those that receive the vaccine should receive the information for whatever vaccine they receive.  The fact sheets are 6 pages.

Moderna http://www.fda.gov/media/144638/download (http://www.fda.gov/media/144638/download)

Pfizer http://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download (http://www.fda.gov/media/144414/download)

Janssen http://www.fda.gov/media/146305/download (http://www.fda.gov/media/146305/download)


These folks are not profiting from the vaccine, nor do they mention specific products.  Maybe go through the process yourself and see what kind of information is given to you or not instead of dismissing truth outright, based on no knowledge.  After you have received the information from those holding syringes, you can always say you don't want it.  No one will twist your arm.  Give it a try and let us know how it went.  If there were any lapses, or you felt you were not properly informed, you can do your civil duty and take it up with those leading the effort at your chosen location.


So the paperwork that people receiving the vaccine doesn't say "Risks and benefits of the vaccine aren't known?" By omitting that statement, people are less educated and are more likely to allow the vaccine to be injected into their body. More unethical behavior from our government and our medical community but you want us to continue to listen to their 'expert' advice.


Did you watch the second video in my previous link where Dr. Yeadon he says scientific peer review journals have been bought by special interest and scientists today are pressured to say certain things otherwise they won't get grants? Whether it's pertaining to vaccines or global warming, I figured that out before the Dr. made the statement.




These folks are not profiting from the vaccine, nor do they mention specific products.  Maybe go through the process yourself and see what kind of information is given to you or not instead of dismissing truth outright, based on no knowledge.  After you have received the information from those holding syringes, you can always say you don't want it.  No one will twist your arm.  Give it a try and let us know how it went.  If there were any lapses, or you felt you were not properly informed, you can do your civil duty and take it up with those leading the effort at your chosen location.



The executives who own stock in companies that manufacture vaccines got filthy rich. Moderna stock multiplied by over 10 in a year. Those companies aren't giving away the vaccines for free and losing money. WE are paying for it. I am doing my civil duty by warning civilians about the dangers and unknowns and debating those like yourself who promote vaccines without having a full grasp of the truth. Talking to a low level medical nurse giving out jabs won't change anything except her mind. Time better spent spreading info on the internet but millions of people on social media are getting suppressed or censored if they have an anti vaccination post. Free speech is only free if you agree with them.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 23, 2021, 08:42:50 AM

So the paperwork that people receiving the vaccine doesn't say "Risks and benefits of the vaccine aren't known?" By omitting that statement, people are less educated and are more likely to allow the vaccine to be injected into their body. More unethical behavior from our government and our medical community but you want us to continue to listen to their 'expert' advice.


No, it does not.

It states:

based on the totality of the scientific evidence available showing that the product may
be effective to prevent COVID-19 during the COVID-19 pandemic and that the known and
potential benefits of the product outweigh the known and potential risks of the product.


And is the official position of the FDA EUA's I provided you up thread.  I guess you missed or skipped that part.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 23, 2021, 08:48:33 AM

Did you watch the second video in my previous link where Dr. Yeadon he says scientific peer review journals have been bought by special interest and scientists today are pressured to say certain things otherwise they won't get grants? Whether it's pertaining to vaccines or global warming, I figured that out before the Dr. made the statement.


There is some corruption in every system, but that doesn't mean every system is corrupt (your current stance).
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 23, 2021, 09:01:47 AM
No, it does not.

It states:

based on the totality of the scientific evidence available showing that the product may
be effective to prevent COVID-19 during the COVID-19 pandemic and that the known and
potential benefits of the product outweigh the known and potential risks of the product.


And is the official position of the FDA EUA's I provided you up thread.  I guess you missed or skipped that part.


That was a statement they made as early as last year in December. After more studies came out, they lost confidence in the vaccines so they revised the documents to say "risks and benefits are unknown." Later they might revise it again to say "We really F'd up. Warning! Don't take experimental vaccines for obvious reasons".
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 23, 2021, 09:25:52 AM
Or they might say the vaccine is far safer and much more effective than expected.

You are drawing conclusions without any substantiation.  Sorta like rear ending another car and looking in the owners manual to try and find the cause.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 23, 2021, 11:25:55 AM
Or they might say the vaccine is far safer and much more effective than expected.
 


You are drawing conclusions without any substantiation. The FDA says the risks and benefits of the vaccine are unknown. Trust the science BC. The real science probably deserves a much harsher statement because they don't want to scare people but I'll settle for "the risks and benefits of the vaccine are unknown".
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 24, 2021, 05:12:34 AM
In the UK today nearly 16,000 infections for yesterday, 19 deaths and about 1,500 people in hospital on ventilators. There's been about twenty something deaths for the past few days and they are apparently recorded as people dying from the virus within 28 days of transmission becoming apparent.

So not really sure who are filling up all the ventilator beds and dying, people who have had the vaccine, one dose or two? Or people that refused to get the vaccine?

Young adults will have only had one vaccine so far so don't know if it's them or younger still or whether it's older people who have had the vaccine with underlying health problems. Little seems to have been reported on who is those people are on ventilators or dying but we don't seem quite clear of it yet.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 24, 2021, 07:03:40 AM

You are drawing conclusions without any substantiation. The FDA says the risks and benefits of the vaccine are unknown. Trust the science BC. The real science probably deserves a much harsher statement because they don't want to scare people but I'll settle for "the risks and benefits of the vaccine are unknown".

Raising a possibility is not drawing a conclusion.

As to what the FDA said on 10 June:

Among the requirements for issuing Emergency Use Authorizations:

Quote
Based on the totality of scientific evidence available, including data from adequate and
well-controlled trials, if available, it is reasonable to believe that the product may be
effective to prevent, diagnose, or treat such serious or life-threatening disease or
condition that can be caused by SARS-CoV-2,
or to mitigate a serious or life-threatening
disease or condition caused by an FDA-regulated product used to diagnose, treat, or
prevent a disease or condition caused by SARS-CoV-2.

The known and potential benefits of the product, when used to diagnose, prevent, or
treat the identified serious or life-threatening disease or condition, outweigh the known
and potential risks of the product.

http://www.fda.gov/media/149935/download

All vaccines must meet these FDA requirements in order to receive an EUA.

End of the line BillyB.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on June 24, 2021, 07:17:10 AM
In the UK today nearly 16,000 infections for yesterday, 19 deaths and about 1,500 people in hospital on ventilators. There's been about twenty something deaths for the past few days and they are apparently recorded as people dying from the virus within 28 days of transmission becoming apparent.

So not really sure who are filling up all the ventilator beds and dying, people who have had the vaccine, one dose or two? Or people that refused to get the vaccine?

Young adults will have only had one vaccine so far so don't know if it's them or younger still or whether it's older people who have had the vaccine with underlying health problems. Little seems to have been reported on who is those people are on ventilators or dying but we don't seem quite clear of it yet.

They're lying to you
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 24, 2021, 07:50:10 AM
They're lying to you

Possibly, will find out soon I guess.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 24, 2021, 03:51:42 PM
Raising a possibility is not drawing a conclusion.

As to what the FDA said on 10 June:

Among the requirements for issuing Emergency Use Authorizations:

http://www.fda.gov/media/149935/download (http://www.fda.gov/media/149935/download)

All vaccines must meet these FDA requirements in order to receive an EUA.

End of the line BillyB.


That is a June 10, 2021 meeting among themselves. That is not a public statement. They talk about the Dec 2020 finding noting benefits outweigh the risks. The revised public statement from the FDA says risks and benefits are unknown.


Why are you hellbent on promoting an experimental product that you know little about and that could cause a mass depopulation event? The experts I posted here seen with their own eyes experimental vaccines compromising immunity systems of lab animals that led to premature death. They know what they are talking about. They won't guarantee it happening but they know it can happen.


We have adequate treatments available that reduces people's chances to die to nearly 0%. There is no risk from those treatments to cause a mass depopulation event like what could happen from an experimental vaccine. The current strategy should be vaccinating elderly and the sick and allowing people's own natural immune system build up an immunity to the virus since they have almost a 0% chance to die from COVID. Medical experts successfully beat ALL pandemics and epidemics in the past without using the strategy of vaccinating healthy people with experimental unproven vaccines.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 25, 2021, 02:22:08 AM
Apparently most new cases happening in children and young people according to this Doctor/report:

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-57599849

The previous original virus didn't effect children and young people much at all for the most part but apparently the variants do. Children and young people not currently Vaccinated of course, even some of those aged over 18 in their twenties won't be. Whether it is children & young people making up those on ventilators in hospital and dying still seems to be information not forthcoming at the moment it seems, at least here in the UK.

Here is an article that goes into the more highly transmissible Delta/Indian variant and it's spread from India to the UK and now to the US:

http://deadline.com/feature/coronavirus-deaths-united-states-1202874446/

It too details how children and young people are now more susceptible and at risk than older people who have been vaccinated.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 25, 2021, 02:59:42 AM
Some issues with the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines reported here:

http://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1635

Apparently a few people getting heart inflammation after taking the vaccine, mainly in young people it seems, but of course not many considering the numbers taking the vaccine.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 26, 2021, 03:07:13 PM


UK government health report. Pay attention to pages 13 and 14. 7200 people with two doses of vaccines got the Delta variant and 50 of those people died. 53,800 unvaccinated people got the Delta variant and 44 people died. 13,700 people with one dose of vaccine got the Delta variant and only 19 people died. Do the math. People with less or no vaccine have a higher chance of surviving the Delta variant. Remember what those three vaccine experts said? The experimental vaccine may compromise a healthy immune system making us more likely to get sick and/or die which can lead to a mass depopulation event.

http://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/996740/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_17.pdf (http://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/996740/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_17.pdf)


Israel has the highest percentage of their population vaccinated yet they are getting ill from another virus as if they were in Winter. Remember what those three vaccine experts said? The experimental vaccine may compromise a healthy immune system making us more likely to get sick and/or die which can lead to a mass depopulation event.

http://www.jpost.com/health-science/covid-19-might-be-over-but-viral-infections-in-israel-are-surging-671354 (http://www.jpost.com/health-science/covid-19-might-be-over-but-viral-infections-in-israel-are-surging-671354)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 26, 2021, 04:33:57 PM

UK government health report. Pay attention to pages 13 and 14. 7200 people with two doses of vaccines got the Delta variant and 50 of those people died. 53,800 unvaccinated people got the Delta variant and 44 people died. 13,700 people with one dose of vaccine got the Delta variant and only 19 people died. Do the math. People with less or no vaccine have a higher chance of surviving the Delta variant. Remember what those three vaccine experts said? The experimental vaccine may compromise a healthy immune system making us more likely to get sick and/or die which can lead to a mass depopulation event.

http://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/996740/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_17.pdf (http://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/996740/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_17.pdf)


Israel has the highest percentage of their population vaccinated yet they are getting ill from another virus as if they were in Winter. Remember what those three vaccine experts said? The experimental vaccine may compromise a healthy immune system making us more likely to get sick and/or die which can lead to a mass depopulation event.

http://www.jpost.com/health-science/covid-19-might-be-over-but-viral-infections-in-israel-are-surging-671354 (http://www.jpost.com/health-science/covid-19-might-be-over-but-viral-infections-in-israel-are-surging-671354)

On the face of it the figures don't look good for those that have been vaccinated I agree, but these figures just show those who have tested positive for the virus. It's likely that many of those vaccinated would have either not caught the virus because the vaccine protected them or had the virus but knew nothing off it, otherwise the numbers in the vaccine columns as testing positive right at the top of the table would have been far more as at that point at least half or more of the population would have been vaccinated.

It might be assumed that those who died or hospitalised possibly on ventilators would have done so anyway vaccine or not. Some people's health is so frail because of underlying health conditions or obesity so they are kind of on the edge anyway.

This report is pretty handy for getting an idea of who is dying from the current Delta/Indian variant and those that might be on ventilators. Looks like all ages can still be at risk though with both jabs mainly the elderly at risk of dying probably due to old age underlying health problems at a guess. My guess is also those in hospital on ventilators both young & old either more susceptible immune system/genes or poor health/underlying health conditions.

A good early insight I think so handy to know probably have to see what the news reporters find out when they get to it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 26, 2021, 04:42:29 PM
Here's some Sky News graphs on it all so far:

http://news-sky-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/uk-reports-18-270-new-covid-cases-the-highest-since-5-february-12342395?usqp=mq331AQIKAGwASCAAgM%3D&amp_js_v=0.1

Doesn't tell us the state of the people dying/hospitalised if underlying symptoms but tends to show the virus isn't effecting us as much overall as it did. Hopefully we'll get some more news soon.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 26, 2021, 10:55:41 PM

UK government health report. Pay attention to pages 13 and 14. 7200 people with two doses of vaccines got the Delta variant and 50 of those people died. 53,800 unvaccinated people got the Delta variant and 44 people died. 13,700 people with one dose of vaccine got the Delta variant and only 19 people died. Do the math. People with less or no vaccine have a higher chance of surviving the Delta variant. Remember what those three vaccine experts said? The experimental vaccine may compromise a healthy immune system making us more likely to get sick and/or die which can lead to a mass depopulation event.

http://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/996740/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_17.pdf (http://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/996740/Variants_of_Concern_VOC_Technical_Briefing_17.pdf)


BillyB,

Your proven ability to mangle words and language is only surpassed by your ability to misinterpret the data presented.

Your ASSessment of the data provided in the report is, to put it bluntly, completely wrong.

Should you have any doubt as to my assertion, please do contact the authors of the report, or a competent statistical analyst.  In consideration of your difficulty comprehending the written word, I'm not even going to try and attempt to guide you through even more complex issues.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 26, 2021, 11:03:21 PM
It's likely that many of those vaccinated would have either not caught the virus because the vaccine protected them or had the virus but knew nothing off it, otherwise the numbers in the vaccine columns as testing positive right at the top of the table would have been far more as at that point at least half or more of the population would have been vaccinated.



Covid vaccines have a high rate of efficacy. They lose some efficacy on variants but efficacy is still high. But so far, according to the data coming out of the UK from over 92,000 people infected by the Delta variant, those that taken two doses have a much higher rate of death compared to those who are not vaccinated. If the vaccine isn't protecting people, it's more likely to allow the virus to pass defenses and kill them.


The three vaccine experts I posted about talks about the very subject of people's immune system getting compromised by an experimental vaccine which in turn causes mass depopulation. They probably seen more than enough dead lab animals to understand this can happen.


So while most vaccinated people are protected against COVID and its variants, the vaccine certainly won't be able to protect them from other unrelated pathogens. Covid vaccinated people may have a much higher rate of dying from influenza or a bacterial infection compared to unvaccinated people. If a person's immune system is compromised by the vaccine, they'll carry the problem for life. Life expectancy will go down. The only benefit is governments won't need to pay out pensions as long. Time will tell if they gave us a vaccine or a poison.




BillyB,

Your proven ability to mangle words and language is only surpassed by your ability to misinterpret the data presented.

Your ASSessment of the data provided in the report is, to put it bluntly, completely wrong.

Should you have any doubt as to my assertion, please do contact the authors of the report, or a competent statistical analyst.  In consideration of your difficulty comprehending the written word, I'm not even going to try and attempt to guide you through even more complex issues.


Don't be shy, enlighten us with your interpretation of the data. Insults aren't going to convince people you're right and I'm wrong.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 26, 2021, 11:09:43 PM

Israel has the highest percentage of their population vaccinated yet they are getting ill from another virus as if they were in Winter. Remember what those three vaccine experts said? The experimental vaccine may compromise a healthy immune system making us more likely to get sick and/or die which can lead to a mass depopulation event.

http://www.jpost.com/health-science/covid-19-might-be-over-but-viral-infections-in-israel-are-surging-671354 (http://www.jpost.com/health-science/covid-19-might-be-over-but-viral-infections-in-israel-are-surging-671354)

Did you even read the full article, BillyB?

Quote
Snir noted that after the year of the pandemic, it is not surprising that these diseases are reappearing.  “We did not see them during the winter because we were wearing masks and because of the lockdowns, but they are normal viruses,” she said.

You are again totally misrepresenting the facts.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 26, 2021, 11:22:07 PM

Don't be shy, enlighten us with your interpretation of the data. Insults aren't going to convince people you're right and I'm wrong.

Nope. You made the assertion of fact. It's your turn to do your homework.

I will give you a tip though, start on page 38 "Monitoring of vaccine effectiveness" and test your extraordinary hypothesis using simple logic.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 26, 2021, 11:42:43 PM
Nope. You made the assertion of fact. It's your turn to do your homework.

I will give you a tip though, start on page 38 "Monitoring of vaccine effectiveness" and test your extraordinary hypothesis using simple logic.


I'm not talking about vaccine effectiveness and I can admit vaccines are effective against COVID. I can admit benefits but it seems you can't admit risks.


2+2=4 right? Go to pages 13 and 14 and use the numbers there to try and convince everybody vaccinated people aren't dying at a higher rate than those vaccinated. It's not happening the way you want so you're visibly upset. You want to believe the stuff you injected into your body is great stuff so you reject anything bad said, even if it came from top experts in the industry.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 27, 2021, 01:20:27 AM
BillyB

Just for entertainment purposes:

Of 8475 over 50 that tested positive for the Delta variant that had contact with the ER:
7499 vaccinated people over 50
976 unvaccinated people over 50

109 over 50 and vaccinated died 1.45%
38 unvaccinated died 3.89%


For 72539 under 50 that tested positive for the Delta variant

19693 vaccinated under 50
52846 unvaccinated under 50

2 vaccinated died .01%
6 unvaccinated died .01%

Now of course you'll certainly find some other excuse, but barring any gross error in my calculations you'll have to contact the authors of the report to validate your hypothesis.  Their full contact information is on the last page of the report.  Since the report was not intended to assess vaccine safety, the manner in which I have assessed the raw data may not be representative, and is only used for the purposes of example which you *might* understand.  My intent is not to misuse data, as you clearly do.











Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 27, 2021, 02:12:12 AM

Covid vaccines have a high rate of efficacy. They lose some efficacy on variants but efficacy is still high. But so far, according to the data coming out of the UK from over 92,000 people infected by the Delta variant, those that taken two doses have a much higher rate of death compared to those who are not vaccinated. If the vaccine isn't protecting people, it's more likely to allow the virus to pass defenses and kill them.


The three vaccine experts I posted about talks about the very subject of people's immune system getting compromised by an experimental vaccine which in turn causes mass depopulation. They probably seen more than enough dead lab animals to understand this can happen.


So while most vaccinated people are protected against COVID and its variants, the vaccine certainly won't be able to protect them from other unrelated pathogens. Covid vaccinated people may have a much higher rate of dying from influenza or a bacterial infection compared to unvaccinated people. If a person's immune system is compromised by the vaccine, they'll carry the problem for life. Life expectancy will go down. The only benefit is governments won't need to pay out pensions as long. Time will tell if they gave us a vaccine or a poison.





Don't be shy, enlighten us with your interpretation of the data. Insults aren't going to convince people you're right and I'm wrong.

Well at this point the figures in the table are just figures they don't really say why those people died whether their health was too weak vaccine it not or whether their immune system had been compromised. We'll have to wait and see for further comment from government, health workers, scientists as to why some people who had taken the vaccine and both doses were still dying.

The fact that all people dying who had taken 2 doses were over 55 is an interesting statistic. My guess was that these were due to poor health in old age although it could of course be due to another reason.

The stats show in general I think we can surmise that far less people who had the vaccine than those unvaccinated had any trouble as the unvaccinated I think we can safely assume appeared in the results in greater number, 53 thousand odd reported cases. So for most people to date it is probably fair to say the vaccine gives greater protection than without but possibly not for all people perhaps.

Today in the UK yesterday there were nearly 18 thousand infections so growing infection rate and 23 deaths. So deaths keep on rolling in and we assumed the vaccine would pretty much stop all deaths after vaccination I think it is fair to say even with the variants since we were told a few weeks/months ago that it would stop serious cases, etc. So it does look as though the vaccines are not quite as effective against the variants as hoped for everybody. The big question remains why?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 27, 2021, 02:27:03 AM
Trench,

the vaccine may not stop all infections, but does prepare the body to fight it off more effectively. For a few percent, the vaccine may not be effective. The data seems to represent that.  As long as deaths stay at a low level, things are going in the right direction. Who knows how many of those that die were vaccinated, but a few, unfortunately, do.

http://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/25/covid-breakthrough-cases-cdc-says-more-than-4100-people-have-been-hospitalized-or-died-after-vaccination.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 27, 2021, 04:24:01 AM
Trench,

the vaccine may not stop all infections, but does prepare the body to fight it off more effectively. For a few percent, the vaccine may not be effective. The data seems to represent that.  As long as deaths stay at a low level, things are going in the right direction. Who knows how many of those that die were vaccinated, but a few, unfortunately, do.

http://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/25/covid-breakthrough-cases-cdc-says-more-than-4100-people-have-been-hospitalized-or-died-after-vaccination.html

Indeed, my guess is that we still have a number of weeks ahead of us while this Delta variant makes its way through the population. Deaths are likely to climb a bit more on the twenty something we presently have maybe towards a hundred a day but probably I'm guessing not more than that for the UK. So really just a case of sit tight and ride this one out then hope that following variants aren't as bad then hopefully the situation improving sometime after that. My guess is that poorer nations and those with large populations like India will keep the problem going on longer through not being able to vaccinate their population sufficiently then potentially allowing mutations and exporting these variants abroad.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 27, 2021, 05:06:14 AM

UK government health report. Pay attention to pages 13 and 14. 7200 people with two doses of vaccines got the Delta variant and 50 of those people died. 53,800 unvaccinated people got the Delta variant and 44 people died. 13,700 people with one dose of vaccine got the Delta variant and only 19 people died. Do the math. People with less or no vaccine have a higher chance of surviving the Delta variant. Remember what those three vaccine experts said? The experimental vaccine may compromise a healthy immune system making us more likely to get sick and/or die which can lead to a mass depopulation event.

BillyB-

Too early to call on the cows to come home. The published efficacy of the vaccine, IIRC, is over 97%. The CFR shown on the article is well within the expected range even with this variant.

You’re doing the exact same that started this mass hysteria. Concentrating on the <1% while losing sight of the +99%er.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 27, 2021, 05:47:40 AM
The 53 thousand unvaccinated are an interesting figure when it comes to deaths, more people died who had the vaccine than without even though that is based on fewer positive cases than without or at least roughly half of the population having some vaccine half without during that period.

The hospitalisations meanwhile show roughly half that figure where hospitalised that were vaccinated than those without. So it looks like in addition to avoiding getting the virus or it no longer showing as a problem that there is less chance of being hospitalised if you have the vaccine, but there is no less risk of dying if you have had the vaccine for certain people, who those people are and why we still need to find out?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 27, 2021, 09:15:27 AM
Trench,

I think we can be confident folks that are crunching statistics, but conclusions such as yours above can't be drawn from the UK Health Technical briefing document we've been discussing.

[edit]

To underline my point:


Quote
Nearly all COVID-19 deaths in the U.S. now are in people who weren’t vaccinated, a staggering demonstration of how effective the shots have been and an indication that deaths per day — now down to under 300 — could be practically zero if everyone eligible got the vaccine.

An Associated Press analysis of available government data from May shows that “breakthrough” infections in fully vaccinated people accounted for fewer than 1,200 of more than 853,000 COVID-19 hospitalizations. That’s about 0.1%.

And only about 150 of the more than 18,000 COVID-19 deaths in May were in fully vaccinated people. That translates to about 0.8%, or five deaths per day on average.

The AP analyzed figures provided by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. The CDC itself has not estimated what percentage of hospitalizations and deaths are in fully vaccinated people, citing limitations in the data.

http://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-941fcf43d9731c76c16e7354f5d5e187
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 27, 2021, 10:09:24 AM
Trench,

I think we can be confident folks that are crunching statistics, but conclusions such as yours above can't be drawn from the UK Health Technical briefing document we've been discussing.

[edit]

To underline my point:


http://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-941fcf43d9731c76c16e7354f5d5e187

I don't see why we can't. At the start of this pandemic most of the deaths were in the elderly with underlying health problems. The statistics show that among those vaccinated with 2 doses all deaths were in those over 55, the elderly if you like. So could it be that it remains the case that most deaths are still in the elderly with underlying health conditions even if vaccinated? It seems plausible as after all the vaccine is there to tackle the virus it doesn't turn someone into a superhero, if their health is poor it won't take much to push them over the edge, with a variant it's not a direct match to the vaccine so it will allow some damage to be done to those with weakened immune systems, i e the elderly with underlying health problems.

End of the day the UK stats Billy quoted are official statistics, they're not made up.

My guess is as more time passes more official statistics both in the US, UK & elsewhere will substantiate this as will reports of who is dying. Remember most of the UK adult population is now vaccinated, IS as well probably, so who are these people that are now dying, the young? doubtful as we would no doubt be hearing a lot about it if it was, my guess is that apart from a few older people that chose not to be vaccinated that it is the elderly with underlying health conditions that have been vaccinated.

Its possible of course that some elderly with underlying health conditions purposely chose not to be vaccinated as suffering in old age with no quality of life and possibly lonely well they might not have minded too much if they got an end to it all.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 27, 2021, 11:42:54 AM
Trench,

The numbers aren't being questioned, only the layman's analysis of the numbers is the issue.  This report specifically represents tested cases of the Delta variant.  We don't know how representative this subset of data is for the general population of infected folks.  Even simple questions like 'Were all positive COVID tests also tested to identify the variant? If not, what was the selection criteria for performing genome tests?' are important.

Statistics is a science.  Neither you, I nor BillyB have the required knowledge and education to draw any authoritative conclusions from complex subsets of data and apply it to the general population.  Let's leave that to the experts. 


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 27, 2021, 11:49:06 AM
BillyB-

Too early to call on the cows to come home. The published efficacy of the vaccine, IIRC, is over 97%. The CFR shown on the article is well within the expected range even with this variant.



Over 92,000 people were observed in that data and those vaccinated with one and two doses are dying more often than those not vaccinated. People should pay attention to the data of that sample size.


How do you know what the efficacy rate of the vaccine is? What they tell you and what the truth is are two different things. The experts I mention upthread said it's too early to tell. Healthy peoples own immune system survival rate is going over 99% now yet we give credit to the vaccine for saving them?




You’re doing the exact same that started this mass hysteria. Concentrating on the <1% while losing sight of the +99%er.


The three experts I mentioned upthread said there could be a mass depopulation event due to the vaccines which could cost billions of lives. Don't blame me for that revelation. They probably own stock and are losing money saying what they're saying but they seem to genuinely care about humanity.


One guy is an ex VP of Pfizer, graduated top of his class, and started a biotech company that he turned around and sold for $350 million. Another guy is an ex senior project manager for epidemics for the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation and the last guy is a French Nobel Peace Prize winner in vaccines.


How many people promoting vaccines and who work at the FDA can hold a candle to those three guys? They are all leaders in their field of work and they are sounding off the alarm vaccinating healthy people with experimental vaccines is stupid, especially when we were able to beat all modern day epidemics and pandemics using other strategies.


Over 92,000 people were included in the Delta variant data. 11,000 were unlinked53,822 were unvaccinated and 44 died. for a ratio of 1 out of 1223 unvaccinated people died from the delta variant.

13,715 people had one dose of the vaccine for more than 21 days and still got infected by the Delta variant and 17 people died. 1 out of 807 people died although got one jab. Notice survival rate in the data significantly goes up if the vaccine was in the body for less than 21 days?
7235 people had two doses of the vaccine and still got infected by the Delta variant and 50 people died. 1 out of 145 people with two jabs are dying.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 27, 2021, 12:09:23 PM

Over 92,000 people were observed in that data and those vaccinated with one and two doses are dying more often than those not vaccinated. People should pay attention to the data of that sample size.


How do you know what the efficacy rate of the vaccine is? What they tell you and what the truth is are two different things. The experts I mention upthread said it's too early to tell. Healthy peoples own immune system survival rate is going over 99% now yet we give credit to the vaccine for saving them?


Too early to tell? LMAO. Yet you jumped all over a pretty darn useless and premature scenario and here you are trumpeting and concluding the end of the world!


Funny that.

Quote
The three experts I mentioned upthread said there could be a mass depopulation event due to the vaccines which could cost billions of lives. Don't blame me for that revelation. They probably own stock and are losing money saying what they're saying but they seem to genuinely care about humanity.

Is this the same 3 that offered the dissenting opinions you clung on so hard that you pretty much discarded the thousands, if not millions, that countered your 'fact'? Why do you get so caught up in this types of silliness, BillyB?

Quote
One guy is an ex VP of Pfizer, graduated top of his class, and started a biotech company that he turned around and sold for $350 million. Another guy is an ex senior project manager for epidemics for the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation and the last guy is a French Nobel Peace Prize winner in vaccines.


How many people promoting vaccines and who work at the FDA can hold a candle to those three guys? They are all leaders in their field of work and they are sounding off the alarm vaccinating healthy people with experimental vaccines is stupid, especially when we were able to beat all modern day epidemics and pandemics using other strategies.


Over 92,000 people were included in the Delta variant data. 11,000 were unlinked53,822 were unvaccinated and 44 died. for a ratio of 1 out of 1223 unvaccinated people died from the delta variant.

13,715 people had one dose of the vaccine for more than 21 days and still got infected by the Delta variant and 17 people died. 1 out of 807 people died although got one jab. Notice survival rate in the data significantly goes up if the vaccine was in the body for less than 21 days?
7235 people had two doses of the vaccine and still got infected by the Delta variant and 50 people died. 1 out of 145 people with two jabs are dying.


Which means - Z-E-R-O, zilch, nada, Goose egg, el blanko!

The numbers in your this particular subset's CFR is well <1%. The published efficacy of the vaccines is at 97%.

Inhale, exhale, lather, rinse...then repeat. Shift the gears once in a while.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 27, 2021, 12:15:57 PM



Have you gotten the jab GQ?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 27, 2021, 12:29:29 PM
Trench,

The numbers aren't being questioned, only the layman's analysis of the numbers is the issue.  This report specifically represents tested cases of the Delta variant.  We don't know how representative this subset of data is for the general population of infected folks.  Even simple questions like 'Were all positive COVID tests also tested to identify the variant? If not, what was the selection criteria for performing genome tests?' are important.

Statistics is a science.  Neither you, I nor BillyB have the required knowledge and education to draw any authoritative conclusions from complex subsets of data and apply it to the general population.  Let's leave that to the experts.

It's recently been reported that scientists in the UK have studied those infected and found that the Delta variant is now the dominant Coronavirus in the UK, the Kent variant they found a few and the odd original virus but nearly all were the Delta variant. You can Google it if you wish.

The main thing from these statistics is that the vaccine seems to only remove some of the suffering of contracting the virus as in less people needing hospital treatment that and the statistics seem to show it is reducing infection susceptibility even with the more  infectious Delta variant that and/or people aren't displaying symptoms/reacting as badly to it. Deaths though seem largely unchanged as as Billy says here doesn't seem to be affecting the outcome over those who had not been vaccinated.

I wouldn't say the vaccine was a waste of time or hasn't worked at all. Long term affects remain to be seen but it does look like we aren't out of the woods on this one yet as some people seem to think. In the UK there are still twenty something people dying daily so the vaccine hasn't solved it yet.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 27, 2021, 12:37:06 PM



Trench, and anybody that's curious. Video below shows your news reporting people who took a vaccine are dying from the Delta variant nearly 2 to 1 over those who are unvaccinated.

http://t.me/TommyRobinsonNews/21036
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 27, 2021, 01:24:18 PM

Have you gotten the jab GQ?


No. And I don't find the need to.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 27, 2021, 01:28:36 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2021/jun/27/why-most-people-who-now-die-with-covid-have-been-vaccinated
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 27, 2021, 01:51:42 PM

No. And I don't find the need to.


Then we think alike. Don't mind me posting what experts on the other side of the fence are saying. I'm just one little guy on the internet. If Trump or Biden said there's a chance we will have a mass depopulation event from experimental vaccines according to leading scientists in the industry, we'd have much more problems than trying to find toilet paper.




http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2021/jun/27/why-most-people-who-now-die-with-covid-have-been-vaccinated (http://www.theguardian.com/theobserver/commentisfree/2021/jun/27/why-most-people-who-now-die-with-covid-have-been-vaccinated)


Nice spin BC. Enjoy your next experimental vaccine coming out before Winter. If unvaccinated people were dying from the Delta variant 2 to 1 over vaccinated people, the media wouldn't need to put a spin on it and you can say "See BillyB! Vaccines are working great!"
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 27, 2021, 08:01:16 PM
Nice spin BC. Enjoy your next experimental vaccine coming out before Winter. If unvaccinated people were dying from the Delta variant 2 to 1 over vaccinated people, the media wouldn't need to put a spin on it and you can say "See BillyB! Vaccines are working great!"

No media spin here.  The authors are not from the media news pool.  Consider the article as authoritative as the report you are relying on.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on June 27, 2021, 09:11:54 PM
No media spin here.  The authors are not from the media news pool.  Consider the article as authoritative as the report you are relying on.


Very intelligent people got you and many other people to believe there is no widespread election fraud. Although they aren't simple journalists, they can still have agendas and use their expertise as leverage to get you to believe what they want you to believe.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 28, 2021, 12:34:24 AM
As your opinion, that's fine, remaining your problem and not mine, BillyB

Hey that rhymes...  I'll have to whip a few chords together and strum a tune out of it!

You might want to reflect on your statement about those that have "agendas and use their expertise as leverage to get you to believe what they want you to believe"
I've been wondering exactly that about you.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 28, 2021, 02:39:10 AM
More problems with the virus this time in unvaccinated children in India:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-57551285

Meanwhile the Delta Plus variant is starting to knock around out there. Virus cases have been falling out in India under strict lockdown but now plans to lift those measures have been put off over fears the Delta Plus variant may be even more infectious and/or virulent. How long India can go on like it has remains to be seen. It's not one of the more wealthier countries around and has a huge population that it will find difficult to vaccinate so it's looking likely that it will increasingly get caught between the virus and economic hardship of lockdown.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on June 29, 2021, 09:00:54 AM
Well, it lasted two weeks. LA is once again back to the silly mask mandate. Those darn vaccinated folks are spreading the virus everywhere!! Methinks they should all be isolated and kept inside their homes for at least 3-6 months. Except wifey, of course.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on June 29, 2021, 09:17:58 AM
 :devil:
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on June 30, 2021, 11:46:17 PM
Looks like the UK are expecting this virus to be a long running thing. Brief summary here tells us that the Gov is very likely to be giving Covid booster jabs to the over 50s along with the flu jab, that might also possibly be under 50s as well:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/half-of-uk-to-get-third-covid-booster-jab-to-avoid-further-lockdowns-trt6mnr8n

The flu jab I will get again this year even if I have to pay for it as think the threat of the flu combined with the Coronavirus is too great. Another Coronavirus jab I am on the fence over, odds are it will just be the elderly they offer it to anyway. Not sure if it will be one that deals with current variants or another based in the original virus. The latter I don't feel I need the former I would be on the fence about having it. General plan was just to rely on my immune system from here on out apart from flu jabs so unless there seemed a real need I would probably stick with that approach I think.


In other news GAP are closing all 81 of their high street stores and moving all their operation online. I don't personally shop there, don't know who does. So could be low revenue as a result of virus or just people wanting to buy. Either way looks like some businesses may have decided that online is the way forward. If the virus is going to be knocking around for some time to come isolated working, shopping, etc may become the new norm.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 04, 2021, 05:25:09 AM
Anyone got any idea on the outlook of this virus for the months/years ahead?

To me it looks like the odds are that the virus will continue to mutate to new variants. Partly due to Vaccinating large populations like India have and partly due to it transmitting in the population of each country, but how far that will go who knows? I'm just wondering if travelling abroad like we used to will be possible going forward, or whether we might all end up mostly isolated in our own country.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 04, 2021, 05:55:23 AM
Anyone got any idea on the outlook of this virus for the months/years ahead?

To me it looks like the odds are that the virus will continue to mutate to new variants. Partly due to Vaccinating large populations like India have and partly due to it transmitting in the population of each country, but how far that will go who knows?

Don't know if I understood your statement, but it's probably more likely the variant started there because of the billion unvaccinated and not the vaccinated. India was late in the vaccination game IIRC.  Once a new variant is discovered, you can be pretty confident it's next door as well.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 04, 2021, 06:24:54 AM
Don't know if I understood your statement, but it's probably more likely the variant started there because of the billion unvaccinated and not the vaccinated. India was late in the vaccination game IIRC.  Once a new variant is discovered, you can be pretty confident it's next door as well.

Sorry that wasn't a very clear statement I made I meant the trouble India have vaccinating such a large population. I think not only were India late in the vaccination game but their huge population gives them trouble Vaccinating such a large number of people that few other nations have, China being the other one but they tend to have more control & organisation due to their authoritarian nature of government I think.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 04, 2021, 07:55:24 PM


LinkedIn, owned by big tech Microsoft, bans account of Dr. Robert Malone who invented mRNA technology after he warns of COVID shot. It's not what the government wants us to hear.

http://www.theepochtimes.com/mkt_morningbrief/linkedin-deletes-account-of-mrna-vaccine-pioneer-who-issued-warning-about-risks_3884669.html


World's smartest man says the vaccines could cause mass depopulation

http://bigleaguepolitics.com/worlds-smartest-man-with-210-iq-urges-resistance-to-covid-vax-depopulation-agenda/


Government official trying to fool us by getting a fake jab.

http://t.me/WeTheMedia/24655


More government officials think we're stupid.

http://t.me/WeTheMedia/24186


I know many of you embrace the current narrative vaccines are safe and don't want to hear what the other side of the fence has to say but you need to realize the people putting out the current narrative are very deceptive. Video below of Representative Jim Jordan going through Fauci's emails. Talk between him and experts at first was the virus came out of a lab. Next discussions emails heavily redacted including entire pages. Then Fauci and friends all say the virus came from an animal. While Trump and Pompeo was telling the truth last year, propaganda media ridiculed them and claimed they don't listen to scientists. Fauci and friends stayed silent. This isn't only an American problem. WHO and the rest of the world's scientists stayed silent when the studies showed the virus came from a lab. Instead they pointed out to Chinese Communist govt. approved studies that were manipulated to get people to believe the virus came from an animal. All these 'experts' deceive us for no good reason. They deceive us on this virus just like they deceive us on global warming. Scientists will say what the politicians want them to say otherwise they don't get funded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3F2ZJGipiE
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: ML on July 04, 2021, 08:19:09 PM
I am not understanding why government officials (in cahoots with scientists) would want to kill off millions or billions of people by requiring them to get vaccinated.

If depopulation of the world is the goal, shouldn't there be some sort of selective requirements as to who will be required to get vaccinated and who will be exempt ?

Surely leaders would want to maintain at least the current level of intelligence and health, and more optimally, increase both.

But maybe that has already been factored in and explains why received ESP (or some such) messages to my brain telling me to get vaccinated.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 04, 2021, 08:59:33 PM
If depopulation of the world is the goal,



Most of the pro vaccine experts I previously mentioned and I are not saying depopulation is a sinister goal although there are people out there who think there are too many humans on the planet and would welcome back gas chambers. The experts I spoken about are saying depopulation can happen by administering an experimental vaccine to healthy humans who don't need help to beat COVID. We have never used this strategy of vaccinating everybody on any epidemic or pandemic that we've successfully beaten in modern times using other methods. The experts I've spoken about have seen many dead laboratory animals die from poisonous vaccines to know what they are talking about.


Trump promotes vaccines but he was surrounded by experts who were not honest and I'm sure they failed to educate Trump that there's a slight chance billions of peoples immunity systems can be compromised by an experimental vaccine that will result in reduced life expectancy.


If people go to the vaccine manufacture's websites, they will read for themselves that certain studies have not concluded. Reproductive toxicity has not concluded yet they are talking about giving the vaccine to kids. Some kids may lose their ability to reproduce or have defective children. We don't know what will happen for certain because studies are ongoing and everybody who's taken a jab is part of the experiment.



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 06, 2021, 02:17:33 AM
Still uncertain territory how things will shape up here with the virus this summer whether we will get another variant that the current vaccine is less effective against or what:

http://news.sky.com/story/covid-news-live-boris-johnson-facemasks-backlash-schools-bubble-isolation-coronavirus-rules-12349015

The original virus has had several variants now so if cases go up like they did last winter then another variant is probably pretty likely and likely the current vaccine will be less effective. So possibly by late summer a new variant may be on the up here will have to see.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 06, 2021, 04:03:42 AM
The original virus has had several variants now so if cases go up like they did last winter then another variant is probably pretty likely and likely the current vaccine will be less effective. So possibly by late summer a new variant may be on the up here will have to see.

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/561585-fauci-more-than-99-of-people-who-died-from-covid-19-in-june-were-not vaccinated

This is of course positive news.  That the vaccines still exhibit high efficacy against current variants is indicative that none of the variants were caused by vaccinated folks, with the real variant factory being folks that are not vaccinated IMO. Let's hope this trend continues, and efforts are made to distribute vaccines to nations that have low vaccine rates, maybe preventing new variants.

My behavior hasn't changed much, except for wearing masks outside.  Despite being fully vaccinated, I still keep a good distance and use a mask in public indoor spaces amongst folks I don't know have been vaccinated.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 06, 2021, 04:16:19 AM
Here's an interesting factoid I stumbled across:

(http://i.postimg.cc/6Q7t7CWV/Screen-Shot-2021-07-06-at-13-13-30.png)

Suggest getting the flu shot and possibly pneumonia vaccine as well in late Autumn.

Source: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/mortality-overview.htm
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 06, 2021, 09:23:26 AM
http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/561585-fauci-more-than-99-of-people-who-died-from-covid-19-in-june-were-not (http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/561585-fauci-more-than-99-of-people-who-died-from-covid-19-in-june-were-not) vaccinated



Fauci, the guy that intentionally lied about origin and other things and may have knowingly or unknowingly funded the virus infecting our bodies want to give us advice on how to beat it. Funny.


"The rules are simple: they lie to us, we know they're lying, they know we know they're lying, but they keep lying to us, and we keep pretending to believe them."


Elena Gorokhova
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 06, 2021, 10:26:48 AM
Thanks for your opinion, BillyB.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 06, 2021, 11:06:42 AM


BC, you think vaccination the world's population is a good thing. Your opinion. We've never used this strategy on past epidemics and pandemics that we've successfully beaten but you want to try something new and claim it's the right thing to do.

Since you believe vaccinating everybody is the right thing to do, you should call for Fauci to be fired. Don't feel sorry for him. He's made his money and at his age, he's set for life and will never be hungry.

The people you want vaccinated has no confidence in Fauci. He may be intelligent but he's lost the ability to lead since he's been caught lying. There are brilliant generals out there that understand warfare but will get soldiers killed because they aren't motivated to follow those generals so those generals will get fired. Ask yourself why is Fauci still on the job? If saving lives is the priority of our government by getting people vaccinated, they would fire Fauci and hire a capable leader that can get people to listen to him or her. Because that has not happened, I doubt saving lives is the main priority of our government. Retaining Fauci is important because he's shown he can engage in lies and propaganda which is an important tool of a corrupt government.


Big drop in efficacy on the Delta variant according to Israel who has a higher percentage of their population vaccinated than other major nations in the world. The experts I posted about previously say if we let our own immune system beat COVID, our immune system will easily handle variants that are only .3% different than the original virus. There won't be a need for creating all new experimental vaccines for variants.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/ministry-data-said-to-show-pfizer-shot-blocks-majority-of-serious-delta-cases/ (http://www.timesofisrael.com/ministry-data-said-to-show-pfizer-shot-blocks-majority-of-serious-delta-cases/)


Dr Yeadon, ex Pfizer VP and chief science officer, goes off on NHS physicians. He says people are being taken advantage of. He's normally calm and mild mannered but he snapped in this interview.

http://t.me/WeTheMedia/24860 (http://t.me/WeTheMedia/24860)

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 06, 2021, 11:32:58 AM
Billy,

I posted a statement from Dr. Fauci and factual information from CDC I believed others might find helpful.  It was neither addressed to you, nor was a response solicited from anyone.

Your opinions are well known. We've discussed most of them multiple times.  I feel no further need to respond, unless, as we previously found useful, you provide a single, factual and new topic to discuss, and we focus our discourse on the proposed topic to the end.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 06, 2021, 12:39:29 PM
Billy,

I posted a statement from Dr. Fauci and factual information from CDC I believed others might find helpful. 



Great! You happily provided factual data given by Fauci last year and Trump Russia collusion to steal an election for years until they were proven not to be factual. I understand for some here, it's now uncomfortable to talk about a truth that goes against their beliefs. Fauci is a proven liar. He's supposed to be working for our benefit but there is a chance he may be partially responsible for the virus in our bodies, deaths and massive harm done to our and the world's economies.


On the coronavirus and vaccines, we are bombarded by the media reporting the government and scientific community's narrative of the day. I simply provide experts from the other side who sincerely care about humanity and aren't making any money from what they are saying. They may even lose money if they onw stock in big pharma. You don't have to take my word on anything. Talk about their message. I'm just a messenger.


I've had 12+ vaccines in my life. I'm not anti vaccine. I'm skeptical of taking an experimental vaccine that the FDA on their own website say it's not approved for use on humans. It's a crime that people taking the vaccine aren't given ALL information to make an informed decision about injecting a product into their bodies that has not passed all safety tests. Without government emergency authorization, it would be a crime to give people an experimental vaccine that is normally injected in animals for observation at this stage.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 06, 2021, 12:50:31 PM
Everything you just wrote is (again) your opinion.  I find nothing worthy of further discourse.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 07, 2021, 01:56:00 AM
Here's an interesting factoid I stumbled across:

(http://i.postimg.cc/6Q7t7CWV/Screen-Shot-2021-07-06-at-13-13-30.png)

Suggest getting the flu shot and possibly pneumonia vaccine as well in late Autumn.

Source: http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/covid19/mortality-overview.htm

Indeed BC I got the pneumonia vaccine about this time last year and the flu jab early in September which was the earliest time I could get it, had to pay for both myself. I got the pneumonia jab as soon as I heard last year that it was a factor in many people dying from it in hospital after catching Covid. This year I again intend to get the flu jab as I think more people might give that a miss as they get lax about it all. There's a second pneumonia jab I can get that protects against more strains of pneumonia again I have to pay as both pneumonia & flu jabs are normally only given free to the elderly over a certain age. Essentially I have to wait a while year from having the first pneumonia jab I think they say so the immune system is not overwhelmed by fighting of the dead virus injected in or something like that.

Not really sure if the pneumonia you can get with Covid is the same as covered by the vaccines but probably best to get the pneumonia vaccine anyway. I had very little reaction to the pneumonia vaccine last year but the flu vaccine reaction was the worst, worse even than the first vivid jab I had (AZ vaccine) the second Covid jab little reaction at all.

Odds are I'll probably have a second pneumonia jab in late July-early August and the flu jab again some time in September, with a bit of luck that will keep the wolves at bay lol.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 07, 2021, 03:29:35 AM
That sounds like a solid plan Trench.  I'll be doing much the same, possibly early next year, adding Sputnik V on top.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 07, 2021, 04:47:39 PM

With governments lifting restrictions, the media is sure talking about variants lately. First the Delta and Lambda variants that are resistant to vaccines, now the Epsilon strain is being revealed to resist vaccines by as much as 70%. It's important the media bombards us with this new info so by being properly educated, we're more likely to comply when the government reapplies restrictions, lockdowns, and administer all new experimental vaccines.

http://nypost.com/2021/07/07/california-epsilon-strain-of-covid-19-could-evade-vaccines-study/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 07, 2021, 10:43:58 PM
With governments lifting restrictions, the media is sure talking about variants lately. First the Delta and Lambda variants that are resistant to vaccines, now the Epsilon strain is being revealed to resist vaccines by as much as 70%. It's important the media bombards us with this new info so by being properly educated, we're more likely to comply when the government reapplies restrictions, lockdowns, and administer all new experimental vaccines.

http://nypost.com/2021/07/07/california-epsilon-strain-of-covid-19-could-evade-vaccines-study/

That's an interesting report Billy, if the Epsilon variant reduces vaccines down to being as little as 30 percent effective in some or many cases then we might have to rethink the way we run society long term. A country can't keep paying for furlough & reduced trade from lockdowns. A move to a more permanent isolated working & trading organisational process may become the new norm. Wearing the more professional masks with dedicated filters may become the norm in indoor public environments also, those few that will still exist of course. A professional mask should reduce transmission far better than those silly loose cloth/paper masks. Softer versions of the professional masks are around and built in layers of fabric to filter out viruses. In Africa most medical staff avoided contracting the Ebola virus by wearing the professional masks with plastic filters on the side and a dedicated respirator, I've got one and it works well. I don't think I want to go through contracting various versions of the virus anymore than having to continually get injections all the time. So think a permanent way in the way society works will likely end up the way we will go, some won't like it but it will be something we'll have to all end up getting familiar with.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 07, 2021, 11:57:47 PM
That's an interesting report Billy, if the Epsilon variant reduces vaccines down to being as little as 30 percent effective in some or many cases then we might have to rethink the way we run society long term.



The experts I posted about earlier said the solution is simple. We need to allow the virus to run its course. People with healthy immune systems have almost no chance in dying from the original virus and its variants. Once we get sick, we begin to acquire natural immunity that will also be effective against variants, unlike vaccines that lose efficacy on the variants. Vaccinating billions of people with an experimental vaccine has risks and worse case scenario is that billions of people immune systems get weakened by vaccines leading to reduced life spans.


It's a shame China allowed a biological weapon to escape a lab, lied about it, and the virus may have been funded by American tax dollars but it is what it is. People died. To save a few lives at the expense of all who are living may not be the best solution. This virus is not a monster killing 10% of the people. We need to shelter the elderly and the vulnerable and the rest of us need to get back to living our lives and allowing our immune systems to beat the virus. Should we get ill, we have treatments that passed all safety tests to reduce chance of death. With safe and effective treatments, there shouldn't be a need for risky experimental vaccines on healthy people but it could still be used on high risk groups who have a 5+% chance to die from COVID.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 08, 2021, 12:16:23 AM
Trench,

My take is that many of these variants are not really new, but have been around for a while.  What did change is that we started finding the variants through more extensive tests now available and more commonly used.

Not only do variants compete with the population, but they compete with each other.  As an example, think of a small, better trained special forces team vs an army.  Despite their better training and armament, they are easily overwhelmed by an army force of large numbers.  In this manner, the variants are suppressed by the larger, predominant variants like Delta.  There are many qualities of variants as well, mainly their transmissivity, virulence and of course opportunity.  A more virulent variant that is less transmissible might not have much success to spread.  A variant that is both transmissible and virulent has to have opportunity to successfully infect folks.

The key is opportunity, mostly among folks that have not been vaccinated and throwing caution to the wind by not taking simple precautions as to distancing and mask wearing.

Delta is reported to be a bit more effective for folks that have been vaccinated, and some other variants even more so, but have difficulty getting a grasp and spreading wildly.

There are variants of interest, like Epsilon and there are variants of concern, like Delta that is causing more harm.  That doesn't mean Epsilon can't become a variant of concern, but as long as folks are being prudent, get vaccinated and maintain precautions, opportunity is reduced.

I am confident current vaccines can be easily tweaked for dangerous variants and boosters approved after less extensive and time-consuming testing than the initial vaccines.

As for masks, I prefer the disposable surgical mask.  I use a fresh one when going out and throw them away before returning home.  I am not convinced the 'better' masks are really better, as they cost much more, leading folks to reuse them often without rotation or other means to disinfect the masks.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 08, 2021, 12:27:35 AM

The experts I posted about earlier said the solution is simple. We need to allow the virus to run its course. People with healthy immune systems have almost no chance in dying from the original virus and its variants.

This is pretty much the case in Peru, with almost 6000 deaths per million vs 2000 and still counting.  Final counts could be higher.  Would this be deemed acceptable?  Also, some part of the population will still take efforts to protect themselves, leaving fertile ground for additional variants.

Quote
It's a shame China allowed a biological weapon to escape a lab, lied about it, and the virus may have been funded by American tax dollars but it is what it is.

Still, speculative and not deemed factual.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 08, 2021, 11:13:04 AM

This is pretty much the case in Peru, with almost 6000 deaths per million vs 2000 and still counting.  Final counts could be higher.  Would this be deemed acceptable?  Also, some part of the population will still take efforts to protect themselves, leaving fertile ground for additional variants.


Relying on vaccines to do the job, yes, we need to worry about variants because vaccines lose efficacy on variants but if we rely on our own immune system, once we get one of the COVID variants or the original, we will have immunity to all. We won't have to worry about new variants showing up again. Variants will be weaker against our new and improved immune system that learned what they're about.

Last year, when someone got COVID, they were told to go home and let their immunity system fight it. The only people that got emergency care were those that were struggling to beat it. We can continue this program today without experimental vaccines. We have therapeutic medicines that passed all safety tests to help those struggling to beat COVID significantly improving their chances of survival. For some, there's too much money invested in vaccines to let it go.

How many lives lost is acceptable? None, but we can't get to none. We have failed to factor in risks. In the attempt to save millions of lives, we are risking the health of billions of people who have taken experimental vaccines and they will have to take more experimental vaccines with no end in sight.



Still, speculative and not deemed factual.


China lied on many accounts. One being the virus is not human to human transferable. This kept the World's guard down. If they told the truth and allowed the World to help, we may have stopped the spread in Wuhan. We pay WHO to protect us but instead of investigating the virus for themselves, they simply repeated China's lies. China continues to lie. There are tiny nations with a few million people that have more infections and death than China, a nation of 1.4 billion.

Early emails revealed the virus came from a lab not an animal. When a pathogen shows up such as one that causes the bird flu and kills a half dozen people, 100 million birds are slaughtered to protect people. That's how it works. When the virus of the century shows up, no animals were harmed because the virus in its current form didn't originate from an animal.

Although you don't think these are facts, shouldn't our government spend some money to investigate so we make sure this doesn't happen again? I don't know if our tax dollars funded the virus but it is a fact our tax dollars went to the Wuhan laboratory to do some work. Why didn't our government health officials make sure China used our money properly? Maybe we wanted them to create a super virus? That's why we need an investigation. People need to be fired for incompetence and negligence if not for intentionally misusing funds that harmed America.


Getting back to our debate about magnetic properties of vaccines, it's true. Link below says Spanish researchers evaluated the properties of the Pfizer vaccine and its mostly made up of Graphene Oxide. The article claims it's poisonous to our bodies but I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with them.

Graphene Oxide: The Actual Contents Inside Pfizer Vials Exposed! - Global ResearchGlobal Research - Centre for Research on Globalization (http://www.globalresearch.ca/actual-contents-inside-pfizer-vials-exposed/5749458)


Two science based sites below say graphene oxide has magnetic properties.

Identifying the magnetic properties of graphene oxide: Applied Physics Letters: Vol 104, No 12 (scitation.org) (http://aip.scitation.org/doi/abs/10.1063/1.4869827?journalCode=apl)

Magnetic properties of graphite oxide and reduced graphene oxide - ScienceDirect (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1386947714002604)


some fact checkers on social media are saying graphene oxide does not exist in vaccines. Why did they come out so fast trying to debunk the Spanish researchers findings? Maybe its true graphene oxide is harmful to our bodies in some degree? Dec 2020 link below says graphene based materials may be effective against COVID-19 so I tend to believe big pharma used graphene oxide over the fact checkers.

Potential of graphene-based materials to combat COVID-19: properties, perspectives, and prospects (nih.gov) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7577689/)









Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 08, 2021, 12:06:36 PM
Relying on vaccines to do the job, yes, we need to worry about variants because vaccines lose efficacy on variants but if we rely on our own immune system, once we get one of the COVID variants or the original, we will have immunity to all. We won't have to worry about new variants showing up again. Variants will be weaker against our new and improved immune system that learned what they're about.

This may be your opinion.  Mine differs.  I tend to believe that variants are caused by millions of different 'laboratories' in each and every human a virus infects.  We see this with influenza as well.  As stated before, these variants are being discussed only now because we have the means to detect them in large sets of samples.  They have been around for a while, some IIRC back to even before the vaccines were being given to large portions of the population.  Your hypothesis doesn't seem to add up logically, but hey, as long as this is your opinion and not a statement of fact, that is ok.

Quote
Last year, when someone got COVID, they were told to go home and let their immunity system fight it. The only people that got emergency care were those that were struggling to beat it. We can continue this program today without experimental vaccines. We have therapeutic medicines that passed all safety tests to help those struggling to beat COVID significantly improving their chances of survival. For some, there's too much money invested in vaccines to let it go.

Again, your opinion.  And that's fine.

Quote
How many lives lost is acceptable? None, but we can't get to none. We have failed to factor in risks. In the attempt to save millions of lives, we are risking the health of billions of people who have taken experimental vaccines and they will have to take more experimental vaccines with no end in sight.

You have stated this opinion many times.  Many do not believe such.  Respect them and their choices.


Quote
China lied on many accounts. One being the virus is not human to human transferable. This kept the World's guard down. If they told the truth and allowed the World to help, we may have stopped the spread in Wuhan. We pay WHO to protect us but instead of investigating the virus for themselves, they simply repeated China's lies. China continues to lie. There are tiny nations with a few million people that have more infections and death than China, a nation of 1.4 billion.

The search for the source of the virus continues, and this is a statement of fact.

Quote
Early emails revealed the virus came from a lab not an animal. When a pathogen shows up such as one that causes the bird flu and kills a half dozen people, 100 million birds are slaughtered to protect people. That's how it works. When the virus of the century shows up, no animals were harmed because the virus in its current form didn't originate from an animal.

Are we going to let 100 million people die, which is within the realm of possibilities of letting the virus run rampant?

Quote
Although you don't think these are facts, shouldn't our government spend some money to investigate so we make sure this doesn't happen again? I don't know if our tax dollars funded the virus but it is a fact our tax dollars went to the Wuhan laboratory to do some work. Why didn't our government health officials make sure China used our money properly? Maybe we wanted them to create a super virus? That's why we need an investigation. People need to be fired for incompetence and negligence if not for intentionally misusing funds that harmed America.

I'm sure considerable funds are being spent to find the source of the virus, but it's not something you can just throw money at and expect a result.  How long did it take to find the source of SARS?  It may take a shorter time, or a longer time to find the source of the original COVID 19 virus.


Quote
Getting back to our debate about magnetic properties of vaccines, it's true. Link below says Spanish researchers evaluated the properties of the Pfizer vaccine and its mostly made up of Graphene Oxide. The article claims it's poisonous to our bodies but I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with them.

My personal experience leads me to believe this is not the case.  The article you refer to clearly states:

This is a controversial report based on the findings of Spanish researchers. It remains to be fully ascertained.

Quote
Two science based sites below say graphene oxide has magnetic properties.

some fact checkers on social media are saying graphene oxide does not exist in vaccines. Why did they come out so fast trying to debunk the Spanish researchers findings? Maybe its true graphene oxide is harmful to our bodies in some degree? Dec 2020 link below says graphene based materials may be effective against COVID-19 so I tend to believe big pharma used graphene oxide over the fact checkers.

See above. The properties of graphene oxide can be better discussed when something definitive is known.  I could state that the vaccine contains turds and until someone disproves it, peddle such as fact.  I won't though.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Daveman on July 08, 2021, 12:17:02 PM
Just as an aside, I do understand why virus genetic research is conducted, including genetic modifications.  Viruses aren't really alive, nor are they dead. They're genetic replicators which happen to kill the cells in which they replicate.  They carry keys of entry for very specific cells... as well as keys of exit.

Imagine creating a bioweapon which enters and explodes out of specific cancer cells (killing them in the process)... I get the 'good'


The problem with that is that the little bastards always mutate (as does everything). 

ETA:
A year ago I would have bet anyone 100k that the virus experiment escaped the Wuhan lab.  Today I'd bet 10m (were I only that rich). 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 08, 2021, 12:22:42 PM



BC, a lot of my 'opinion' is based on the education I received from experts who are against vaccinating every healthy person on earth with experimental vaccines that have not passed all safety tests and are not approved by the FDA to be used on humans. I posted their interviews, articles and videos here. One is the ex VP and chief science officer at Pfizer. Another is a French Nobel Peace Prize winner in vaccines. Another is the ex senior project manager in charge of epidemics for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Nobody here has yet to dispute anything they say but when I repeat what they say, I'm told it's "my opinion".
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 08, 2021, 12:34:42 PM
Daveman,

Until proven otherwise, it is within the realm of possibility that the virus somehow was formed, or brought into, and exited the lab.  Problem is, other possibilities, as well, remain.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Daveman on July 08, 2021, 12:36:51 PM
Daveman,

Until proven otherwise, it is within the realm of possibility that the virus somehow was formed, or brought into, and exited the lab.  Problem is, other possibilities, as well, remain.

No argument here.  I agree.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 08, 2021, 12:39:24 PM


BC, a lot of my 'opinion' is based on the education I received from experts who are against vaccinating every healthy person on earth with experimental vaccines that have not passed all safety tests and are not approved by the FDA to be used on humans. I posted their interviews, articles and videos here. One is the ex VP and chief science officer at Pfizer. Another is a French Nobel Peace Prize winner in vaccines. Another is the ex senior project manager in charge of epidemics for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. Nobody here has yet to dispute anything they say but when I repeat what they say, I'm told it's "my opinion".

That is because their views are opinion as well.  Sorta like a club sandwich of opinions, one I'm not biting into.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 08, 2021, 05:44:20 PM


Good news everyone. You won't have to wait this winter for your booster shot. After the media bombards us with scary variants escaping current vaccine protections, big pharma has a quick solution of dishing out booster shots now and are developing an all new experimental vaccine for the Delta variant to jab you with later. See how this works? Help is on the way.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/pfizer-seek-us-regulators-covid-19-vaccine-dose-78741533

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/pfizer-covid-19-booster-shot-extends-strong-protection-company-says-vaccine-being-updated-to-target-delta-variant/ar-AALVYK3?ocid=msedgntp


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k29PCOFXSKc

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 09, 2021, 09:08:51 AM


BC and anybody that took a vaccine, if the government next week gives the green light for the non FDA approved experimental vaccine to be administered as a booster shot and advertises telling people to protect themselves and others by getting it, will you go get it? If by fall, the all new vaccine for the Delta variant comes out and it a two shot program, will you do it? If all new vaccines are created for the other variants, will you take those shots. It's possible the government may approve 5+ jabs of experimental vaccines in less than a year. Are you willing to take as many jabs as the government recommends?


There's a twitter bot putting out mass identical posts on fake accounts saying the government is stupid for lifting restrictions and we should go back into lockdown. They are trying to get the public to happily agree to go back into lockdowns.

http://trialsitenews.com/university-of-chile-scientists-study-indicates-sinovacs-vaccine-elicits-more-transmissible-potent-variant-called-lambada/


Study in Chile shows signs the vaccine is allowing the virus to become more vaccine resistant after mutation.

http://trialsitenews.com/university-of-chile-scientists-study-indicates-sinovacs-vaccine-elicits-more-transmissible-potent-variant-called-lambada/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 09, 2021, 12:13:32 PM

Study in Chile shows signs the vaccine is allowing the virus to become more vaccine resistant after mutation.

http://trialsitenews.com/university-of-chile-scientists-study-indicates-sinovacs-vaccine-elicits-more-transmissible-potent-variant-called-lambada/

Lambda seems dominant in Peru, who are quite slow with vaccinations.  Do we know if it started in Peru, or its neighbor Chile?

http://www.cbs8.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/lamda-variant-now-a-variant-of-concern-for-who-coronavirus/509-ec7ae541-0eea-406f-a02b-4f48806241ab

We do have a clue.. The variant of concern (VoC) called C.37 or the “Lambda variant,” was probably first identified in Peru about one year ago,  This from the article you linked.

In fact, the article you linked says nothing you infer.   Read it, comprehend what it really says.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 09, 2021, 12:48:56 PM

In fact, the article you linked says nothing you infer.   Read it, comprehend what it really says.



From the article....again. There is a chance the vaccine are responsible for mutations that allow the virus to beat the vaccines. Remember the fine print given to us by the FDA and vaccine manufactures, the significant risks and benefits of the vaccines are unknown. We will know more when the experiment is over.


" The World Health Organization (WHO) reports that this mutant variant could not only boost transmissibility but also strengthen the pathogen’s resistance to vaccine-elicited neutralizing antibodies. It is not known yet what the impact of this variant will be, reports a new study, but the investigators do speculate that there could be a result of this viral adaptation to the CoronaVac vaccine, produced by the Chinese corporation Sinovac. That’s right: if this study is correct, the CoronaVac vaccine could be correlated to a mutation, one that’s led to a more transmissible and potent mutant. The authors suggest mass vaccination programs conducted directly in SARS-CoV-2 hotspots should be coupled with “strict genomic surveillance.”
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 09, 2021, 01:39:31 PM
BillyB,

Did you see the words "but the investigators do speculate"?

Some sources say the Lambda variant was first detected in Peru in August 2020 and some say December.

Use simple logic.  I doubt anyone at that time received the Sinovac vaccine in Chile, but if you're interested, you can search yourself.

Here is a less technical assessment:

Quote
In a nutshell, these results indicate that mutations present in the spike glycoprotein of the Lambda variant of interest give rise to increased infectivity and enable the immune escape of this specific lineage from neutralizing antibodies elicited by CoronaVac.

http://www.news-medical.net/news/20210708/Growing-concern-over-SARS-CoV-2-Lambda-variant.aspx

This does not mean that the Sinovac vaccine was the cause of the Lambda mutation.

The study has not yet been peer reviewed.  Sure, lets keep an eye out on it, but stop crying wolf, blaming vaccines and floating speculations as fact.  Such can be outright dangerous.

Bottom-line FACT: To date, no variant has been identified as having been caused by a vaccine. Of course, this does not exclude future possibility of such happening some time in the future.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 09, 2021, 09:40:23 PM

The study has not yet been peer reviewed.  Sure, lets keep an eye out on it, but stop crying wolf, blaming vaccines and floating speculations as fact.  Such can be outright dangerous.



They are keeping an eye on it. These early studies are important and people who have taken the vaccine are in the experiment. It normally takes 7-10 years to complete safety tests on vaccines. We may find out later billions of people's healthy immune systems have been compromised which is what vaccine experts have warned can happen. It's a gamble and we're gambling with lives. We've successfully beat pandemics in the past using other methods. Trying to vaccinate every healthy living person on earth is something new they're trying.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 10, 2021, 12:18:53 AM

We've successfully beat pandemics in the past using other methods. Trying to vaccinate every healthy living person on earth is something new they're trying.

Depends on how you define 'successful'.  Your Darwinian 'live or die' approach is IMO neither socially acceptable, nor prudent when the benefits, more than likely outweigh the risks.  Our only defense to dangerous viruses are vaccines.  We're not going to let COVID run rampant for a decade.  Not gonna happen, no matter how many times you repeat the same post.  We all know your opinion, so no need to sound like a broken record.  At some point, you'll tire from plowing the air. Pick the topic up again when you have some something solid..

Again, I'll respect your choices. Learn to respect the choices of others.




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 10, 2021, 08:51:40 AM



No matter how many times you repeat the sales slogan the vaccine is safe and effective, it's not going to work on all of us. There is science on the other side of the fence that say humanity could be falling off a cliff and you want me to respect people's uninformed choices. Don't be offended when I try to educate people before they take a step off the cliff. FDA and vaccine manufacture's documents say significant risks and benefits are unknown, the vaccine is not approved and not all safety tests are concluded. If you buy a defective toaster, you can return it. If you buy a lemon of a car, you can sue based on lemon laws. If you inject an experimental vaccine into your body, you can't take it back and you can't sue. If you die from taking a non approved vaccine, your life insurance policy is voided and your beneficiaries won't see a dime. So while we're bombarded with good news about the vaccines, enjoy the occasional the news from the other side of the fence. It's not disinformation or misinformation or an opinion. You can read the fine print at government and vaccine websites for yourself. You can read and watch expert testimony from men who are smart enough to lead teams of scientists in the vaccination field.


If your government says you'll be needing 5+ jabs of experimental vaccines this year for full protection for yourself and others because the science they paid for says so, are you going to believe them?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 10, 2021, 09:11:01 AM
Everything you just stated, BillyB, is repeated, and I've already answered.  Cut n paste all you want, doesn't work.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on July 11, 2021, 05:42:24 AM
Everything you just stated, BillyB, is repeated, and I've already answered.  Cut n paste all you want, doesn't work.

That's a duck and dodge of the question BC, a fair question at that.

I notice you use a lot of "us, we, we're not going to" in your previous post apparently under the guise of the experimental vaccine is effective and safe. It is not proven to be either. This isn't polio or a seasonal flu. Highly tested vaccines btw that are not completely safe either. The covid vaccine isn't proven to be anything, yet. You, I and everybody is a part of the covid experiment whether we chose to be or not. Vaccines are not our only defense against viruses. You have been grossly misled
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 11, 2021, 07:08:31 AM
That's a duck and dodge of the question BC, a fair question at that.

No ducking, no dodging.  You are free to click on past pages in this thread and review the discourse.

Quote
I notice you use a lot of "us, we, we're not going to" in your previous post apparently under the guise of the experimental vaccine is effective and safe. It is not proven to be either. This isn't polio or a seasonal flu. Highly tested vaccines btw that are not completely safe either. The covid vaccine isn't proven to be anything, yet. You, I and everybody is a part of the covid experiment whether we chose to be or not. Vaccines are not our only defense against viruses. You have been grossly misled

If you have questions about my usage of words in a post, quote it, so I can see what you're talking about and the context of the post.

Your opinion is noted, FP.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on July 11, 2021, 09:44:26 AM
Well the post provided by you wasn't exactly the same thing but, okay. I don't completely read the volley's between you two, just somewhat passively. Maybe you answered it elsewhere

However, the question here was a good one given your position on the subject. This science you seem to follow comes straight from the CDC and WHO websites. They are now saying those that have had any of the vaccines may need a booster shot for the variants which to date is (3??). The experimental vaxx is actually ahead of the booster shots they are about to release which is also experimental. Will you take those jabs as well if that science indicates you need it?

Btw BC, in your research before getting the vaxx, did you see the 32 pages of possible side effects?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 11, 2021, 10:56:24 AM
FP,
I don't believe CDC and WHO are recommending boosters yet.  I don't think you'll be able to find news on their websites, but if you do, kindly post it. I have read Pfizer is proposing such based on some additional testing and studies they performed.  Will I get a booster?  Like I stated 'elsewhere' I'll do research and decide from there. If I do decide to get a booster, it will likely be with another vaccine, maybe even Sputnik V.

I do believe that many might spend more time researching what grill or TV to buy than research and make informed choice, either for, or against the vaccine.  But I do believe, even those that don't research, rely on their health providers instead. Some do not have the skills, or even good access to the internet.  There is nothing wrong taking the advice of my doctor, but I research and ask questions as well.  After all, I usually take the advice of my trusted mechanic regarding my car and do the same.  If anything seems odd, I can always seek a second opinion on both counts.  Sure, there are plenty of internet fora for both medical and mechanical information, but like anything else on the internet, I tend to be a bit skeptical.

I have little qualm with those stating their opinions, even you FP.  But I do have issues with whomever makes statements of facts that don't add up, or rely on improbable, and unprovable theories that abound.

In the end, like voting, each of us, independent of whether properly informed or not, can make a choice and are not even forced to do so.  I'll respect whatever choice they make, but if asked I'll share my opinion and supporting facts I have found that helped me make my choice.

I hope this helps you better understand my position on all this.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 11, 2021, 11:05:25 AM
Btw BC, in your research before getting the vaxx, did you see the 32 pages of possible side effects?

As reported up-thread, I was fully informed of the risks for the vaccine I was given, those listed in the recipient/caregiver fact sheet, and from the MD that reviewed my medical history a few minutes prior to receiving my shot.  I believe the 32 you refer to is for all the vaccine types, about 5 or 6 pages of information for each type, mostly repeated.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on July 11, 2021, 12:49:16 PM
FP,

I have little qualm with those stating their opinions, even you FP.  But I do have issues with whomever makes statements of facts that don't add up, or rely on improbable, and unprovable theories that abound.

In the end, like voting, each of us, independent of whether properly informed or not, can make a choice and are not even forced to do so.  I'll respect whatever choice they make, but if asked I'll share my opinion and supporting facts I have found that helped me make my choice.

I hope this helps you better understand my position on all this.

Therein lies the rub BC. The vaccines aren't really even vaccines. They are drugs in an experimental stage and as I mentioned before we are all part of the experiment whether we want to be or not, both the vaccinated and unvaccinated. Don't confuse emergency use with approved vaxx. Thus there are no facts at this point, proven or unproven, supported or unsupported. We're just one year into the trials. The early returns IMO are not looking to good for the vaccinated. I do wish you the best and anyone else who have taken the jab. The only "facts" or fact is We just don't know

I've understood your position all along. Understanding it doesn't mean agreeing with it. They are not mutually exclusive

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 11, 2021, 01:14:03 PM
I can only refer you to the studies, with many tens of thousands of participants that were done prior to approvals and regular reviews since.  Emergency, conditional or whatever approvals by FDA, and over here EMA, provided the factual evidence and support for these agencies to conclude that based on the totality of scientific evidence available, showing that the product may be effective to prevent COVID-19 during the COVID-19 pandemic, and that the known and potential benefits of the product outweigh the known and potential risks of the product.

That you may not trust these entities, or opt to not take one of the vaccines, is your business.  Just don't misrepresent the facts.

As far as how you would like to name these medicines (for lack of a better word, not to be confused with drug), a drug, or vaccine, or moon dust, it matters little.  IIRC, the difference between vaccine and drug is that a vaccine prevents infections and/or lessens the effect of a disease if infected in the future, whereas a drug is used to treat people who already have a disease.

BTW, were you able to find factual support for your claim that 300 children died from the vaccine?  I don't recall seeing a reply on that topic.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 11, 2021, 11:24:19 PM
Just an aside note.

Using worldometers.info 7 day average, The USA is at 200 deaths per day vs 20 for Italy. Considering the US population is around 5.5 times that of Italy, it's not a good sign.  New infections 18,000 vs 1400, also not good.

This seems to reflect the effects of lifting restrictions, with both countries showing an upward trend in infections, likely due to the Delta variant.  Too early to draw conclusions, but keep your eye out on the data.  The problem with data is that it shows what has already happened.  Don't be deceived by low numbers of the past, the virus is gaining momentum.

Suggest you and your loved ones maintain prudent precautions, and of course getting immunized if you haven't already.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 12, 2021, 06:42:26 AM
Just an aside note.

Nothing to worry about BC. Trump’s no longer in the WH. The rate can get 10 even hundred times worst, the media won’t cover it, or at least temper the severity.

The virus that should be a concern in the US is the new plague - Democrativirus-20.

Far more lethal to our liberty.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 12, 2021, 09:18:17 AM



Over 400,000 reports to VAERS of COVID vaccine death, hospitalizations, misarranges, and injuries. Only a fraction of the people actually harmed knows about this site to report anything to it so you can be sure the numbers are much higher. The amount of death caused by the COVID vaccine is higher than all the other vaccines combined for the last 70 years. Of course those vaccines passed all safety tests so it's expected death and injury will be far less than an experimental vaccine.

http://www.openvaers.com/covid-data
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 12, 2021, 10:57:36 AM
Over 400,000 reports to VAERS of COVID vaccine death, hospitalizations, misarranges, and injuries. Only a fraction of the people actually harmed knows about this site to report anything to it so you can be sure the numbers are much higher. The amount of death caused by the COVID vaccine is higher than all the other vaccines combined for the last 70 years. Of course those vaccines passed all safety tests so it's expected death and injury will be far less than an experimental vaccine.

http://www.openvaers.com/covid-data (http://www.openvaers.com/covid-data)


Sad, if true, BillyB.

Sadder still if you consider Trump made sure to take credit for these vaccines, which is supported by yourself, too.

All these circular blame-game we got ourselves mired deeply in is likely the saddest of them all.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 12, 2021, 11:54:36 AM
Sadder still if you consider Trump made sure to take credit for these vaccines, which is supported by yourself, too.



I've never supported experimental vaccines. I doubt Trump ever seen the documents I posted here from vaccine manufactures and the FDA saying the significant risks and benefits of vaccines are unknown and not all safety tests are completed. I didn't see these documents until after the vaccines came out. If they can prove all safety tests have been completed, I'll support the vaccine.


 Trump is occupied with more important things such as saving this country. Experimental vaccines are currently helping and saving more lives than hurting and killing. That is a fact. Trump knows it and I can accept it. But, he probably doesn't know that a depopulation event can happen should these vaccines compromise people's immune systems a few years down the road leading to millions, if not billions of deaths. The vaccine experts I mentioned upthread are probably petitioning Biden to pause the vaccine program, not Trump because he can't stop it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 12, 2021, 12:21:19 PM
It is a good thing that even the most remote possibility that a vaccine may have anything to do with a death, or hospitalization, or sore arm, or auto accident, or suicide etc is reported to VAERS to be weeded out, and analyzed for any correlations.

People get sick, and die all the time for many reasons.  Just because a VAERS report is made, doesn't mean the event is attributable to the vaccine. Some may well be, but many not.  I wrote a thank-you note to the Pfizer/BioNTech folks mentioning I only had a sore arm and an evening of chills after the second shot, and it was promptly recorded in the VAERS database. I received a follow up email within 24 hours and a form for my MD to fill out and return.  To me, that proves they are operating at the level one can consider an abundance of caution.

(http://i.postimg.cc/JzxVG84F/Screen-Shot-2021-07-12-at-21-07-10.png)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 12, 2021, 03:10:17 PM
...People get sick, and die all the time for many reasons.  Just because a VAERS report is made, doesn't mean the event is attributable to the vaccine. Some may well be, but many not.....

 :o

BC-

I've said so many times before, trust the number. It will never lie to you.

You've asked BillyB for facts numerous times before, well here's one for you. According to VAERS (which you're thankful for having around to make the accounting) which you need consider for a minute..

The CFR of fully immunized (both dosages - received care/hospitalized), figuratively, nearly have identical death rate as non-immunized persons, of COVID-19. 2% vs 1.8%.

COVID-19 fatality reporting had a full year and a half to accumulate vs the vaccine administration. So technically, the fatality rate is literally over TWICE as fast for people who got vaccinated. Meaning it's (vaccine) is twice *more* lethal.

Is this factual enough to support BillyB's point?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 12, 2021, 04:35:44 PM
Here in the UK we are supposed to be near fully unlocked on the 19th July. Seems that current concern is over not swamping the NHS with virus cases as they'll probably rise even further after the 19th. Currently there are 30,000 something known viruses infections a day and roughly in average 30 something deaths a day. The government expects hospitalisations needing ventilation assistance hitting around 1000 a day in a few weeks time:

http://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/live/2021/jul/12/uk-covid-news-19-july-england-latest-updates

My Mother is not keen to get the virus, we have both been vaccinated twice. It's probably not a bad position to take as it might be prudent first to see how this all evolves as it's new territory in terms of effects of vaccine, variants, etc. I am moving to a new face mask, another soft one but one that is more air tight, it has two small respirators, and three layers of filter cloth, designed for use when cycling. I tried it out tonight and it works well, easy for others to understand me, pretty airtight seal and easy to breath through the two small respirators. So I'll be taking a step back for the meanwhile and see how things go, back to using more surface sanitisers also. I'll keep this up after the 19th as better to be cautious than risk family members health including my own. Might as well let others be the guinea pigs on this one ;)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 12, 2021, 09:13:44 PM



More documents released showing Fauci gave over $800k to the Wuhan laboratory to fund bat coronaviruses starting in 2014. Of course he tried to sell it to the American public the virus was all natural.

Judicial Watch Obtains Records Showing NIAID under Dr. Fauci Gave Wuhan Lab $826k for Bat Coronavirus Research From 2014 to 2019 | Judicial Watch (http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-releases/fauci-wuhan-826k/)


Early last years emails show White House upset American money went to fund dangerous and cruel animal experiments at the Wuhan labratory with basically no oversight from US authorities.

JW-v-HHS-NIAID-Wuhan-June-2021-00692.pdf (judicialwatch.org) (http://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/JW-v-HHS-NIAID-Wuhan-June-2021-00692.pdf)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 12, 2021, 10:55:45 PM
:o

BC-

I've said so many times before, trust the number. It will never lie to you.

You've asked BillyB for facts numerous times before, well here's one for you. According to VAERS (which you're thankful for having around to make the accounting) which you need consider for a minute..

The CFR of fully immunized (both dosages - received care/hospitalized), figuratively, nearly have identical death rate as non-immunized persons, of COVID-19. 2% vs 1.8%.

COVID-19 fatality reporting had a full year and a half to accumulate vs the vaccine administration. So technically, the fatality rate is literally over TWICE as fast for people who got vaccinated. Meaning it's (vaccine) is twice *more* lethal.

Is this factual enough to support BillyB's point?

GQ,

You propose a good line of discourse, but before doing so, and I'm confident you will agree, it is important to understand the source(s) of data, what it represents, and limitations in this case the VAERS database.

Before we even attempt, could you kindly review information at the following link with an open mind?  http://www.factcheck.org/2021/03/scicheck-viral-posts-misuse-vaers-data-to-make-false-claims-about-covid-19-vaccines/  It explains pretty well what VAERS data is and its limitations.  Also http://vaxopedia.org/2016/09/09/vaers/ and supporting links in the article.

In addition, http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html shows the results of CDC's evaluation of VAERS data.  If you don't read any of the above, at least read this one.

Just to prevent us from going on wild goose chases.  Or were you referring to another data source?

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Grumpy on July 13, 2021, 05:59:37 AM
Russia on Tuesday reported 24,702 new coronavirus cases and 780 deaths — a new single-day mortality record — as the country battles the surging Delta variant.

Russia's Federal Air Transport Agency has ordered that airlines test all pilots and flight attendants for coronavirus once every 72 hours, the RBC news website reported.

Russia’s Black Sea coastal resorts including Sochi will require visiting tourists to vaccinate against the coronavirus within three days of arrival starting Aug. 1, regional authorities announced Friday.

St. Petersburg authorities will ban gatherings of more than 75 people from July 13, city officials announced. Case numbers have spiked in Russia's second-largest city as it has hosted seven matches in the football tournament.

— Supplies of Russia's EpiVacCorona vaccine have run out in Moscow, city authorities said Thursday, leaving Sputnik V and Sputnik Light as the only remaining vaccine options for Muscovites after supplies of the CoviVac ran out on June 22.

— Starting July 1, the Krasnodar region — where Russia's resort city of Sochi is located — will require all hotels and guest houses to obtain a negative PCR test or vaccination certificate from guests. Starting Aug. 1, the region will ban entry to resorts for unvaccinated vacationers.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/07/13/coronavirus-in-russia-the-latest-news-july-13-a69117
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 13, 2021, 08:36:51 AM
GQ,

You propose a good line of discourse, but before doing so, and I'm confident you will agree, it is important to understand the source(s) of data, what it represents, and limitations in this case the VAERS database.

Before we even attempt, could you kindly review information at the following link with an open mind?  http://www.factcheck.org/2021/03/scicheck-viral-posts-misuse-vaers-data-to-make-false-claims-about-covid-19-vaccines/ (http://www.factcheck.org/2021/03/scicheck-viral-posts-misuse-vaers-data-to-make-false-claims-about-covid-19-vaccines/)  It explains pretty well what VAERS data is and its limitations.  Also http://vaxopedia.org/2016/09/09/vaers/ (http://vaxopedia.org/2016/09/09/vaers/) and supporting links in the article.

In addition, http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html (http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/adverse-events.html) shows the results of CDC's evaluation of VAERS data.  If you don't read any of the above, at least read this one.

Just to prevent us from going on wild goose chases.  Or were you referring to another data source?

Note:

1. I read through all the links you provided.
2. FTR, I am neither pro or against the vaccine/s.
3. I used only the available *raw* data we have on hand. World-o-meter / VAERS.
4. The death rates in both pools were extracted only from those who received medical attention. Not total vaccinated, nor total afflicted of COVID. I threw this out of the equation for the simple reason we have no idea how many really are/were asymptomatic.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
BC-
The links you provided basically tries to make us believe that the report (which are ordered by, managed by, provided by the very same governmental health agency/body that provided all the information we mostly adhere/d to in the US) - should not be taken seriously.

We can agree to disagree, but for me I have a hard time making sense out of a report (their own report) telling me not to believe what is being reported because it is not conclusive that the vaccine is the cause of these deaths. Really?!?

a) At the current state, why published a report, then at the same time, discredit it? Especially considering the better half of the population are still unvaccinated. CDC had fumbled so many things, in so many ways, on repeated occasions since this pandemic started, that for them to be doing this at this juncture is just simply *stupid*.

b) Wouldn’t it be prudent to find out the ‘cause’ of deaths considering this is an incredibly important information surrounding the vaccine at this time?

Don’t mind me if I have more than an ounce of distrust about the validity of the *disclaimer*. No need to rehash how many times CDC/Fauci/DHHS, etc...vacillated the past year and a half. So it's difficult to just take whatever comes out of these guys at face value, you know.

c) Lastly, the reported CFR for COVID is also a mixed bag itself to begin with. We know for a fact the total death count consists of those that died *of*, and *with*, COVID-19. There’s been various reports (please don’t ask for link/s, search for yourself. I despise Google because they have been proven to manipulate what people can and cannot ‘see’ in the internet these days) of deaths being lumped as COVID fatality for nefarious reasons.

I can only hope you can take the time to understand my reasons above, the way I took the time to look at your links and tried to make sense of your perspective. Having said this, *strictly* working ONLY with the raw data we have on hand; would BillyB’s argument in this instance proves his point with you?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 13, 2021, 09:35:12 AM

I can only hope you can take the time to understand my reasons above, the way I took the time to look at your links and tried to make sense of your perspective. Having said this, *strictly* working ONLY with the raw data we have on hand; would BillyB’s argument in this instance proves his point with you?

GQ,

That your opinion seems to be that all these agencies are not trustworthy is noted.  I have little qualm with that.

The conclusion, related in the CDC link I provided, pasted below, seems to be quite representative of findings by the EU EMA from what I have read over here.  I have guests coming over for an evening of pool fun and grilling USA style, but will try to remember and dig up what EMA has recorded/found.

Quote
Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 331 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through July 6, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 5,946 reports of death (0.0018%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS, a rare and serious adverse event—blood clots with low platelets—which has caused deaths.

As for experience, I do know several people that have died of COVID, but do not know anyone that has died from the vaccination.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 13, 2021, 10:12:03 AM
Enjoy your evening, BC. Don't sweat the small stuff. Was just curious if there's an inclination on your side to 'see' the opposing perspective. Now we know..

As this will soon arrive to your attention across the Atlantic, there's now an aggressive campaign by the US government (Biden admin.), including the DNC (Democratic National Committee), to combat what they label as fear-mongering against the vaccine by the conservative lot. They are calling text messaging carriers / social media venues to intervene and/or intercept text messages / posts by the public and amongst themselves; to interject their *fact checking* material anytime they deemed necessary to do so.

We have arrived at a point where having an opinion, if counter to that of the mainstream progressive narrative, as a 'conservative fear-mongering' jive, which must be suppressed and/or censored.

Beyond the recently initiated approval to deploy military-style, high resolution, surveillance cameras to most if not all government offices and installation these days; privacy, freedom of expression / choice and civil liberties I've come to love about the US - have now all been just a thing of the past.

Have a good evening, BC.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 13, 2021, 11:10:58 AM
GQ,

Another thought to ponder.

The numbers I've seen thrown around of those estimated to have been infected with COVID ranges somewhere between 30 and 70 million.  More than 600 thousand have died.

Well over 150 million in the US are fully vaccinated. 6000, even 10,000 deaths depending on which sit you peruse, most of which cannot even be directly attributed to the vaccine with certainty, are well within the expected 'normal' death rates for various aliments like heart attacks etc for the appropriate age groups.

The official VERS site http://vaers.hhs.gov/ is very complicated, but has better analytical reporting features than the openvaers.com site you may be referring to that retrieves raw data from the official VAERS.

VAERS is run by HHS, who is 'boss' of both FDA and CDC, all part of the organizations you seem to distrust.  Openvaers.com takes the official VAERS data and shows it from their POV of people, or loved ones, that are perceived to have been affected by the vaccine.  I don't want to discredit Openvaers at all, just so you know where they are coming from and how they present the same data, and limitations.  I wish the official site was as easily navigated, but it is made for other purposes and not really a public facing tool.  It allows a deeper view into the data and capability to pick out events that stick out, i.e. their assessment of risk factors with the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS

I hope you find this post somewhat helpful, or at least thought-provoking.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 13, 2021, 11:39:33 AM

GQ,

Another thought to ponder.

The numbers I've seen thrown around of those estimated to have been infected with COVID ranges somewhere between 30 and 70 million.  More than 600 thousand have died.

Well over 150 million in the US are fully vaccinated. 6000, even 10,000 deaths depending on which sit you peruse, most of which cannot even be directly attributed to the vaccine with certainty, are well within the expected 'normal' death rates for various aliments like heart attacks etc for the appropriate age groups.

I headed that off the pass and actually covered it in my previous post - with an explanation. See notation #4

Quote
The official VERS site http://vaers.hhs.gov/ (http://vaers.hhs.gov/) is very complicated, but has better analytical reporting features than the openvaers.com site you may be referring to that retrieves raw data from the official VAERS.

VAERS is run by HHS, who is 'boss' of both FDA and CDC, all part of the organizations you seem to distrust.

Not without a reason.

Quote
Openvaers.com takes the official VAERS data and shows it from their POV of people, or loved ones, that are perceived to have been affected by the vaccine.  I don't want to discredit Openvaers at all, just so you know where they are coming from and how they present the same data, and limitations.  I wish the official site was as easily navigated, but it is made for other purposes and not really a public facing tool.  It allows a deeper view into the data and capability to pick out events that stick out, i.e. their assessment of risk factors with the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS

I hope you find this post somewhat helpful, or at least thought-provoking.

I appreciate the effort, though my stance hasn't change.

Returning in kind, here's the last bit on my post to make sure you know it wasn't just a jibe.

http://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/12/biden-covid-vaccination-campaign-499278 (http://www.politico.com/news/2021/07/12/biden-covid-vaccination-campaign-499278)

Quote
Biden allied groups, including the Democratic National Committee, are also planning to engage fact-checkers more aggressively and work with SMS carriers to dispel misinformation about vaccines that is sent over social media and text messages. The goal is to ensure that people who may have difficulty getting a vaccination because of issues like transportation see those barriers lessened or removed entirely.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 13, 2021, 12:34:27 PM


Government can't get enough people vaccinated so they send Fauci on tv to send a 'message' to schools and businesses to mandate their students and workers to get vaccinated. People will lose jobs and kids will lose education if they don't adopt the government approved message.

http://t.me/realx22report/2910


Government does not respect your position on vaccines so they are sending people door to door to 'educate' you and record those who do not want the vaccine. Now they are asking SMS carriers to use fact checkers to monitor who is engaging in anti vaccine texts.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/07/biden-regime-monitor-private-communications-calls-sms-carriers-dispel-misinformation-vaccines-sent-social-media-text-messages/


Factcheck.org owns 2 billion dollars worth of vaccine stock.

http://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/status/1414674836530597888?s=20


FDA warns J and J vaccine has a neurological disease risk

http://www.wsj.com/articles/fda-plans-to-warn-j-j-covid-19-vaccine-raises-risk-of-rare-neurological-condition-11626117261


Some of you may have heard a patent for the coronavirus and cure was taken out years ago. Here's a discussion on that recent news based off documents pulled from the patent office. There should be an investigation on all these new revelations and we may need Nuremburg style trials for those involved with the virus released on humanity whether by accident or on purpose.

http://dougbillings.us/video/dougs-commentary-about-the-dr-david-martin-interview/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 14, 2021, 02:35:07 AM

I appreciate the effort, though my stance hasn't change.

Wasn't expecting change, but good to exchange views as gentlemen, fellow citizens, and not as adversaries.

Quote
Returning in kind, here's the last bit on my post to make sure you know it wasn't just a jibe.

Thanks for the link.  I have no issues with health authorities at the state, or federal level doing all they can to provide folks with information to make good choices.

Quote
“We are steadfastly committed to keeping politics out of the effort to get every American vaccinated so that we can save lives and help our economy further recover,” White House spokesperson Kevin Munoz said. “When we see deliberate efforts to spread misinformation, we view that as an impediment to the country's public health and will not shy away from calling that out.”

I think this pretty much sums things up.  Those that are vaccinated will experience fewer issues, whereas the risks for the unvaccinated are rising.  I fear it will be another long, hard curveball in autumn, with some restrictions already hitting.  I was just talking to my dermatologist this morning, getting some small spots checked (all ok), reticence to get the vaccine is also present here, with a lot of the same mis- and disinformation going around from the fringes via the internet, i.e. the post directly above this one. We both agreed we'd be much better off without all the politics involved.  I believe a lot of folks still look to happenings in the US over here, digesting both the good and bad.

Here or there, looks like many will just have to learn the hard way.  It's far from over, sadly.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 14, 2021, 08:19:17 AM
BC-

I Constitutionally and vehemently disagree with you that our government have the right to not only invade a person's privacy, suppress/oppress freedom of speech/choice, and implementing a police state for their own political purposes. You support the government do all these over a vaccine they could not, have not, approve?

If you would like to talk about mis / dis-information, start with that. Then continue with Democrats not only assailing last summer's nationwide riots, looting and protesting were NOT responsible for the heightened spikes of infection in the country. To deny this 'fact', and not even have it open for discussion, is more than unnerving.

I'm good with finding comfort in disagreeing with you over most of the recent political events taking place in our nation lately.

Number cruncher 101: approx. 34,000,000 was infected with COVID-19, 622,000 died. That's a survival rate of 98.17. What is it they claim the vaccine's efficacy is, 97%? Numbers never lie. We haven't even included asymptomatic cases in these numbers since we do not know how many were infected but never seen the doctor or got hospitalized. They want to exercise, and you support, a 3rd world police state based on these numbers?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 14, 2021, 09:13:54 AM
BC-

I Constitutionally and vehemently disagree with you that our government have the right to not only invade a person's privacy, suppress/oppress freedom of speech/choice, and implementing a police state for their own political purposes. You support the government do all these over a vaccine they could not, have not, approve?

Sure, there should be limits, and I'm quite confident these limits will be tested, and any Constitutional issues resolved by the courts.  That's how our system works.  IIRC having seen public service announcements on TV, but can't remember who sponsored them.  We have mandates in schools as well for vaccines.  It seems many of the COVID vaccines might well be changed from EUA to A by the end of the year, maybe sooner.

Quote
If you would like to talk about mis / dis-information, start with that. Then continue with Democrats not only assailing last summer's nationwide riots, looting and protesting were NOT responsible for the heightened spikes of infection in the country. To deny this 'fact', and not even have it open for discussion, is more than unnerving.

Yeah, but that's a whataboutism.  Not very useful for discussing this topic.

Quote
I'm good with finding comfort in disagreeing with you over most of the recent political events taking place in our nation lately.

Ditto :)

Quote
Number cruncher 101: approx. 34,000,000 was infected with COVID-19, 622,000 died. That's a survival rate of 98.17. What is it they claim the vaccine's efficacy is, 97%? Numbers never lie.

I believe the correct way to calculate is take 622,000 that died, and subtract the efficacy % of the vaccine.  Let's take 90% - approximately 559,800 would still be living today had we had the vaccine at the outset and folks were fully vaccinated.  I'd suggest double-checking with your sources.  Maybe post a link here, as I am curious.  Thanks for bringing this up, as it is certainly a factual issue that does have an indisputable answer.

Remember, the vaccines don't necessarily prevent infection, but do reduce hospitalizations, and deaths that result from infections, by preparing our immune system beforehand for this type of virus. The flu shot is much less effective than most COVID vaccines, yet many line up each year to get it because it does save a significant amount of lives by lessening the effects.

http://www.healthline.com/health/flu-vaccine-effectiveness

Same scenarios apply with the COVID vaccines.

Although exact statistics are not yet available as it's still early, it is reported that there are currently many more deaths among the unvaccinated than the vaccinated.

[edit] http://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2021/jul/deaths-and-hospitalizations-averted-rapid-us-vaccination-rollout
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 14, 2021, 11:03:42 AM

Sure, there should be limits, and I'm quite confident these limits will be tested, and any Constitutional issues resolved by the courts.  That's how our system works.
  IIRC having seen public service announcements on TV, but can't remember who sponsored them.  We have mandates in schools as well for vaccines.  It seems many of the COVID vaccines might well be changed from EUA to A by the end of the year, maybe sooner.


IIRC, the FISA protocol was abused for political purpose not too long ago. I'm certain you haven't forgotten that as it hasn't been that long ago. This' limit' you mentioned had been conveniently moved accordingly.

Quote
Yeah, but that's a whataboutism.  Not very useful for discussing this topic.


Exactly the point I made. You close down the country to prevent infection, but Democrats supports millions of folks to spend hours on in, every single day all summer long, shoulder to shoulder for hours on in, to advance their political purpose. BUT, let's not talk about that...right? Funny.

Quote
I believe the correct way to calculate is take 622,000 that died, and subtract the efficacy % of the vaccine.  Let's take 90% - approximately 559,800 would still be living today had we had the vaccine at the outset and folks were fully vaccinated.
 

Wrong. Why? Because now you're reducing this to hypotheticals to serve your intended narrative, which is a false premise. You can't rewrite history because that isn't what happened. We have hard numbers available. This is why I'm 'not projecting' a hypothetical number of asymptomatic cases, which would even bolster my narrative, because we don't know what the total number of asymptomatic cases either. Besides, I don't need to do this, as again, the numbers we know comfortably supports my point.

Quote
I'd suggest double-checking with your sources.  Maybe post a link here, as I am curious.  Thanks for bringing this up, as it is certainly a factual issue that does have an indisputable answer.

For the vaccine efficacy: http://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/real-world-evidence-confirms-high-effectiveness-pfizer (http://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/real-world-evidence-confirms-high-effectiveness-pfizer)

As for the 98.17%er I cited...world-o-meter report for the US. Death vs recovered. You can chronologically slide backwards at any calendar point you like. I chose December 21, 2020 (approx. vaccine administration) to yesterday when I made the estimate. Feel free to use the very latest if it pleases you (today).

Quote
Remember, the vaccines don't necessarily prevent infection, but do reduce hospitalizations, and deaths that result from infections, by preparing our immune system beforehand for this type of virus. The flu shot is much less effective than most COVID vaccines, yet many line up each year to get it because it does save a significant amount of lives by lessening the effects.

Not according to the prevailing health administrators that govern these vaccines. According to them, the *studies* has not yet concluded for them to approve the vaccine/s. So you either agree with their 'report', or you don't, but you can't agree to both at your convenience.

Besides, death rates hasn't really improved either since the administration, based on the reported statement I referred to above.

Quote
Although exact statistics are not yet available as it's still early, it is reported that there are currently many more deaths among the unvaccinated than the vaccinated.

Really,  :P

Numbers don't lie, BC. Politicians do all the time, and we just now found out, even top medical officials e.g. Fauci & co. You even said yourself upthread that VAER's reports shouldn't be taken as gospel because they don't really know if the reported deaths are in fact caused by the vaccines. LMAO. How can they make a definitive assertion one way or the other? Again, convenience?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 14, 2021, 11:25:10 AM
Russia on Tuesday reported 24,702 new coronavirus cases and 780 deaths — a new single-day mortality record — as the country battles the surging Delta variant.

Russia's Federal Air Transport Agency has ordered that airlines test all pilots and flight attendants for coronavirus once every 72 hours, the RBC news website reported.

Russia’s Black Sea coastal resorts including Sochi will require visiting tourists to vaccinate against the coronavirus within three days of arrival starting Aug. 1, regional authorities announced Friday.

St. Petersburg authorities will ban gatherings of more than 75 people from July 13, city officials announced. Case numbers have spiked in Russia's second-largest city as it has hosted seven matches in the football tournament.

— Supplies of Russia's EpiVacCorona vaccine have run out in Moscow, city authorities said Thursday, leaving Sputnik V and Sputnik Light as the only remaining vaccine options for Muscovites after supplies of the CoviVac ran out on June 22.

— Starting July 1, the Krasnodar region — where Russia's resort city of Sochi is located — will require all hotels and guest houses to obtain a negative PCR test or vaccination certificate from guests. Starting Aug. 1, the region will ban entry to resorts for unvaccinated vacationers.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/2021/07/13/coronavirus-in-russia-the-latest-news-july-13-a69117

That's quite shocking Grumpy, looks likely he things are getting pretty bad in Russia then with the virus. Guessing the Delta variant has made its way through being reasonably near India and having such large borders and all. Ukraine's official figures for known infections are quite low, not sure if this is due to a lengthy lockdown or bs. Vaccination wise it's going pretty slowly in Ukraine with just a couple of million or so our of a total population of 40 something million population. Anyway thanks for letting us know how things stand in Russia, handy stuff to know.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 14, 2021, 11:47:22 AM

IIRC, the FISA protocol was abused for political purpose not too long ago. I'm certain you haven't forgotten that as it hasn't been that long ago. This' limit' you mentioned had been conveniently moved accordingly.


Exactly the point I made. You close down the country to prevent infection, but Democrats supports millions of folks to spend hours on in, every single day all summer long, shoulder to shoulder for hours on in, to advance their political purpose. BUT, let's not talk about that...right? Funny.

Correct, it serves no purpose for this discourse, only distracts.
 

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Wrong. Why? Because now you're reducing this to hypotheticals to serve your intended narrative, which is a false premise. You can't rewrite history because that isn't what happened. We have hard numbers available. This is why I'm 'not projecting' a hypothetical number of asymptomatic cases, which would even bolster my narrative, because we don't know what the total number of asymptomatic cases either. Besides, I don't need to do this, as again, the numbers we know comfortably supports my point.

Don't believe I wrote you were wrong.  I shared what I understand at the moment and the way I interpret how the numbers should be calculated.

For the vaccine efficacy: http://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/real-world-evidence-confirms-high-effectiveness-pfizer (http://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/real-world-evidence-confirms-high-effectiveness-pfizer)[/quote]

Your prior post prompted me to take a second look and indeed efficacy is determined by the trials, and efficiency determined by real world experience.

The link I provided in the edit are estimates, and real world efficiency looks good so far, but no definitive numbers I can find.  As mentioned, still early.

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As for the 98.17%er I cited...world-o-meter report for the US. Death vs recovered. You can chronologically slide backwards at any calendar point you like. I chose December 21, 2020 (approx. vaccine administration) to yesterday when I made the estimate. Feel free to use the very latest if it pleases you (today).

See my remark above regarding efficacy vs efficiency.

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Not according to the prevailing health administrators that govern these vaccines. According to them, the *studies* has not yet concluded for them to approve the vaccine/s. So you either agree with their 'report', or you don't, but you can't agree to both at your convenience.

My belief is there is a high level of confidence that the vaccines are working as expected, and are reducing deaths and hospitalizations among the vaccinated.  Of course, I could be wrong, and so can you.  We'll have to see real world results, in numbers.  As for approvals, I expressed my opinion that it is likely this year from tidbits here and there.

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Besides, death rates hasn't really improved either since the administration, based on the reported statement I referred to above.

Hard to prove either way at this point or?  Estimates as per the last link look encouraging.

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Really,  :P

Know anyone at a hospital nearby? ;)

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Numbers don't lie, BC. Politicians do all the time, and we just now found out, even top medical officials e.g. Fauci & co.

Our opinions may differ, but that's quite ok.  Indeed, the numbers don't lie, but interpretation of the numbers can be faulty.  I'll rely on the science, and my confidence level is high as 'on the ground' reports from the US are practically mirrored with those over here.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 14, 2021, 01:24:26 PM
Correct, it serves no purpose for this discourse, only distracts.


Disagree. Certainly not distracting anything since you stated support to implement policing the public and violating our civil rights under the erroneous premise that 'conservatives' are dis/misinforming anything surrounding the vaccine, creating apprehension. The only dis/misinformation, based on my supporting posts I've relayed here, is coming from this current administration and that of its political party.
 
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Don't believe I wrote you were wrong.  I shared what I understand at the moment and the way I interpret how the numbers should be calculated.


Okay, My rebuttal on the subject stands firmly as stated.

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Your prior post prompted me to take a second look and indeed efficacy is determined by the trials, and efficiency determined by real world experience.

The link I provided in the edit are estimates, and real world efficiency looks good so far, but no definitive numbers I can find.  As mentioned, still early.

See my remark above regarding efficacy vs efficiency.

My belief is there is a high level of confidence that the vaccines are working as expected, and are reducing deaths and hospitalizations among the vaccinated.  Of course, I could be wrong, and so can you.  We'll have to see real world results, in numbers.  As for approvals, I expressed my opinion that it is likely this year from tidbits here and there.

Hard to prove either way at this point or?  Estimates as per the last link look encouraging.


Again, disagree. It matters little at this point what or how you classify/differentiate efficacy / efficiency. Feel free to apply logical reasoning or logarithmic math to compare what the world was without the vaccines, to what it had become since patient 1.

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Know anyone at a hospital nearby? ;)


Not sure what this means. Is VAERs's total content report invalid?

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Our opinions may differ, but that's quite ok.  Indeed, the numbers don't lie, but interpretation of the numbers can be faulty.  I'll rely on the science, and my confidence level is high as 'on the ground' reports from the US are practically mirrored with those over here.


I made no *interpretation* of the published numbers beyond its purpose and intent. You may choose to deny what it represent because it may counter your chosen narrative, that's fine. Certainly that's your right. But let's not confuse the facts to anything other than what it intended and represent.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 14, 2021, 02:52:00 PM


Fun Fact: President of Haiti who was assassinated didn't import vaccines for his people. Less than 48 hrs after assassination, White House announces Haiti will be getting vaccines. Did the Biden administration negotiate or forced the government of Haiti to accept vaccine exploiting the death of an anti vax world leader?

Press Briefing by Press Secretary Jen Psaki, July 9, 2021 | The White House (http://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/press-briefings/2021/07/09/press-briefing-by-press-secretary-jen-psaki-july-9-2021/)


Nobel Peace Prize winner and expert in virology says his vaccinated patients are shown to create variants that are vaccine resistant. He said people will die because of this. He also said it's unthinkable why we're vaccinating during a pandemic. This strategy is wrong.

Luc Montagnier: "We must be ready to incinerate the bodies" - Seemorerocks (http://seemorerocks.is/luc-montangier-we-must-be-ready-to-incinerate-the-bodies/)


Two whistleblowers in the CDC say we have 50,000 deaths from vaccines which is much more than online reports.

http://www.algora.com/Algora_blog/2021/06/27/dr-peter-mccullough-whistleblowers-inside-cdc-claim-injections-have-already-killed-50000-americans


French President tells people they'll lose freedoms and rights to worship if they aren't vaccinated. Currently there are mass protests in France.

Pay Attention - French President Emmanuel Macron Announces All Citizens Who Wish to Shop, Drink, Eat At Restaurants, Travel or Worship Must Be Vaccinated - The Last Refuge (theconservativetreehouse.com) (http://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2021/07/13/pay-attention-french-president-emmanuel-macron-announces-all-citizens-who-wish-to-shop-drink-eat-at-restaurants-travel-or-worship-must-be-vaccinated/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Admin on July 14, 2021, 04:41:14 PM

Fun Fact: President of Haiti who was assassinated didn't import vaccines for his people. Less than 48 hrs after assassination, White House announces Haiti will be getting vaccines. Did the Biden administration negotiate or forced the government of Haiti to accept vaccine exploiting the death of an anti vax world leader?


Billy, rhetorical questions pertaining to unfounded conspiracy theories are the very definition of PROVOCATIVE AND MISLEADING posts.

The only FACT is you are ignoring repeated admonitions to return to on-topic posts.

My patience has grown thin. The next one earns you an extended 'time-out.'
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 14, 2021, 06:26:41 PM



Dan, I didn't make a claim about the Biden administration. I asked a question. The most important person in Haiti was just assassinated and we're pushing products on them that were previously outlawed. People on the forum have always questioned government actions being highly suspicious of government. The American government routinely accuses Russia of killing journalists and poisoning people in the UK.


People all over the world protest and riot against bad government accusing them of many bad things. They have a good feeling on why their lives and their country is going downhill. They don't offer evidence but they appeal to other citizens of the world to support their cause and we don't call them conspiracy theorists.


No conspiracy theories. I can link evidence that came from American government sources that shows the crimes our government committed on the American people. These crimes will send people to prison. The people in my signature line are smart folks and understand what is going on. Once you understand what our government is capable of doing to the American people, you won't have faith they care about the Haitian people either. I personally think everybody has the right to see the evidence of the crimes committed against them but it's your forum and I won't post the links if you don't want.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Admin on July 14, 2021, 06:36:20 PM


Dan, I didn't make a claim about the Biden administration. I asked a question. The most important person in Haiti was just assassinated and we're pushing products on them that were previously outlawed. People on the forum have always questioned government actions being highly suspicious of government.The American government routinely accuses Russia of killing journalists and poisoning people in the UK.


People all over the world protest and riot against bad government accusing them of many bad things. They have a good feeling on why their lives and their country is going downhill. They don't offer evidence but they appeal to other citizens of the world to support their cause and we don't call them conspiracy theorists.


No conspiracy theories. I can link evidence that came from American government sources that shows the crimes our government committed on the American people. These crimes will send people to prison. The people in my signature line are smart folks and understand what is going on. Once you understand what our government is capable of doing to the American people, you won't have faith they care about the Haitian people either. I personally think everybody has the right to see the evidence of the crimes committed against them but it's your forum and I won't post the links if you don't want.

It is abundantly clear to the entire membership of RWD that you are able to share a copious number of links. Whether they constitute believable "evidence" or not is a separate topic - AND - it is a topic which strays far afield of RWD's purpose.

You are a smart guy Billy. You know what is being requested (ne demanded) of you. I will no longer leave it to you to exercise good judgment.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 15, 2021, 12:05:55 AM



Out of all the off themed topics the forum had to endure, none is more important than what is going on in our country. I'd trade every off themed topic for this one. If our government has taken away our rights, our children's rights, and future generations rights to choose our leaders and destiny and a small corrupt group of people are in control of who gets to be President and other positions of power, wouldn't you want to know the truth and have the people around you to have this knowledge so we can take corrective actions? If America has taken the same path as Venezuela, wouldn't you want to stop it?

We can't depend on our government to fix themselves or expect the media to educate us since they're covering up crimes. Stuff like this happens all the time to nations around the world and throughout history. Government grows corrupt, propaganda media keeps people ignorant and gets them to think everything is fine, next thing you know, nations are taken over by corrupt people who changes laws to cement their power and the citizens can't recover their losses. I would hope Americans can look at history, learn from it, and not let this happen to us. Most of us didn't expect this to happen in our lifetime but it was bound to happen and it's happening now.

The evidence I can link people to is now public records and can be obtained for $240 but I can post a link from a left leaning newspaper that has given it to people for free. Audits starting around the country are going to eventually obtain this evidence but fortunately for us, this was release early and people can begin to understand what our government has become and what they are doing to us. Knowledge is power.


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 15, 2021, 02:41:01 AM

Disagree. Certainly not distracting anything since you stated support to implement policing the public and violating our civil rights under the erroneous premise that 'conservatives' are dis/misinforming anything surrounding the vaccine, creating apprehension. The only dis/misinformation, based on my supporting posts I've relayed here, is coming from this current administration and that of its political party.

As this is a subjective sub topic, I think we can simply agree to disagree.
 

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Okay, My rebuttal on the subject stands firmly as stated.

Your POV is noted. Of course, real world data and comparisons when available might influence my position.  See more details surrounding my position below.


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Again, disagree. It matters little at this point what or how you classify/differentiate efficacy / efficiency. Feel free to apply logical reasoning or logarithmic math to compare what the world was without the vaccines, to what it had become since patient 1.

My point was not to invent terminology, but insert terms defined and in common use (thanks again to pointing me in this direction.  I learned something and always enjoy that).  See the following article written long before, in 1998, thus without influences of the current crisis.  I think it goes to the heart of our discussion here.  I hope you'll agree with using these terms in further discussions.

http://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9855432/

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In the clinical development of a vaccine, an efficacy study asks the question, "Does the vaccine work?" In contrast, an effectiveness study asks the question "Does vaccination help people?"


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Not sure what this means. Is VAERs's total content report invalid?

Obviously the data is not invalid, for the purposes of what the database was constructed for, namely as an ear for a variety of data, from different sources reporting negative events that may, or may not be associated with the vaccines. 

My remark concerned the possibility of gathering anecdotal information from those near you that are working with hospitalized COVID patients, whether they note a trend of more being severely ill and dying being among the vaccinated or unvaccinated population.

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I made no *interpretation* of the published numbers beyond its purpose and intent. You may choose to deny what it represent because it may counter your chosen narrative, that's fine. Certainly that's your right. But let's not confuse the facts to anything other than what it intended and represent.

Oh, I certainly don't want to confuse facts, in fact, clarification is my only intent - and yes, primarily for myself by comparison with another POV (yours) I have not discounted.  If we stick to the facts, we cannot err much, and maybe learn.

To recapitulate, I believe we are in a discourse regarding efficacy of the vaccine vs effectivity.

As for efficacy, the trials have been performed showing the vaccines do work, preventing symptomatic disease to a high level, generally above 90% with a few exceptions.  As for efficiency, which I believe is your point here (do correct me if I'm wrong), you seem to be using two data sources, an adaptation of the VAERS database (openvaers.com), and worldometers.info

Neither of these databases properly assess effectivity.  VAERS is as described above, used for other purposes and includes only persons that have been vaccinated.  Worldometers.info OTOH, considers a number of facts such as country, number of infections, deaths, hospitalization and testing.  It does not, however, include information regarding vaccination status, i.e. number of deaths, or serious/critical hospitalizations by this status.  As you indicated, it does provide timeline data by date which is great.

As far as efficiency studies is concerned (if we can agree on using this term and definition above), they are being done, but I have not seen any concrete, full scale national data yet other than statistical estimates and one study I mention below.  I'm confident more will be forthcoming, though, hopefully in the short-term. The best I could find is:  http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7018e1.htm published in May 2021 with the following results:

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In a multistate network of U.S. hospitals during January–March 2021, receipt of Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna COVID-19 vaccines was 94% effective against COVID-19 hospitalization among fully vaccinated adults and 64% effective among partially vaccinated adults aged ≥65 years.

Do note that the full article follows usage of efficacy and effectivity as I defined above, so can be considered on-point in contextual terms.

Maybe it would help me better understand if you lead me through your numbers and logic.  I reviewed your posts but, honestly, had difficulty understanding your correlations (maybe age related, although somewhat more forgetful, I don't believe I'm that awful feeble-minded just yet :)

As for estimates of how effective the vaccines are, I can point you to the link I provided previously, but out of curiosity compared charts from both the estimated effectivity and worldometers, somewhat to scale and timeline for your consideration.  Again, this is just a 'guesstimate', but do consider that effectiveness in the small study above replicates efficacy from trials, there may be more truth than untruth with the estimate.  I do find the estimate somewhat optimistic, but am neither a statistician nor fully knowledgeable and qualified to get down to the nitty-gritty with such. It does give me a comfortable level of confidence, that given a bit of time, my supposition, in general, will be supported by the facts.

(http://i.postimg.cc/1RcTkQ8f/Screen-Shot-2021-07-15-at-11-31-01.png)

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 15, 2021, 09:09:26 AM
I think at the moment people looking to date in the FSU or carry on any sort of activity or relationship out there are interested in whether we are going to be now over the worst of this virus or whether it's going to be an ongoing problem that keeps posing an obstacle to getting anything real and meaningful going with a FSW out there.

Ukraine I will soon be able to fly to after the 19th July, soon :D Russia though looks like it will be off limits for some time partly due to the virus and partly due to access to getting visas if I understand this correctly. Last I heard it sounds like they pretty much banned most travel into their country for the time being.

I haven't heard of any new variants of late and I'm guessing the original virus may have pretty much gone with the variants taking over now. What I have read is that these variants can have sub-variants and a few of them are knocking around such as for the lamda variant. Whether this will amount to much is yet unclear and whether the sub-variants will be any more infectious and/or virulent. The hope of course is that they are not and won't amount to anything substantial, if they were to however that to my mind  would be a big problem in terms of being able to carry on dating, relationships & activities in the FSU.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 15, 2021, 11:54:14 AM
Sheesh...you have too much time on your hands -  :P  But, OK...

As this is a subjective sub topic, I think we can simply agree to disagree.
But it wasn’t a ‘sub-topic’. It was a part of the double-pronged subject being discussed. I shall leave no doubt you’d pounce on the subject had the political affiliation is opposite that of yours.

This sheds a sad reminder of the current state of political affairs today, and additional past biased acknowledgment of the following events in time: Iraq / Libya / Vietnam / the Balkans destructions; project MKUltra; the suspension / abolition of the writ of habeas corpus, support and promotion of violent protests, etc.

It’s only criminal if one political party is behind it. Now, you can begin adding more to those.

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Your POV is noted. Of course, real world data and comparisons when available might influence my position.

Real world data? Funny. Real world data had been established since this pandemic went global, in which you yourself had used countless times and had always been reliant of its information - even today counting your latest post. It’s just that the information from this *real world data* apparently is nullifying your narrative.

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See more details surrounding my position below.

My point was not to invent terminology, but insert terms defined and in common use (thanks again to pointing me in this direction.  I learned something and always enjoy that).  See the following article written long before, in 1998, thus without influences of the current crisis.  I think it goes to the heart of our discussion here.  I hope you'll agree with using these terms in further discussions.

http://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9855432/ (http://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9855432/)

Well BC. I’d at least give you a ‘B’* for effort. You really dug deep in Goggle’s algorithm to come up with Fedson’s ‘abstract’. Unfortunately, the very definition of it should’ve alerted you to carefully consider its content beforehand. Obviously, you didn’t. Within its ‘abstract’ own verbiage, it was clearly telling you that your search for a definitive value of a vaccine *efficiency* is akin to chasing a ghost, for lack of a better term.
There are a multitude of reasons why you will just dive deeper in hypothesis trying to chase this when dealing with viruses. For starters, there will always be a perpetual viral mutation creating variants, so any ‘efficiency’ value of a vaccine becomes useless. The annual influenza proves this point well enough. People still die every year.

To further prove this point (yesterday), the UK just released a report that from Feb 1 – June 21st, over 63% of folks who died of the delta variant had received at least one dose. BUT, while it still maintained there’s benefit of getting (fully) vaccinated, it admits that fully vaccinated people are still dying because of the virus. In their study, it’s largely age-related.

http://theconversation.com/most-covid-deaths-in-england-now-are-in-the-vaccinated-heres-why-that-shouldnt-alarm-you-163671 (http://theconversation.com/most-covid-deaths-in-england-now-are-in-the-vaccinated-heres-why-that-shouldnt-alarm-you-163671)

In short order, you can wait till the cows come home waiting for an efficiency value in this current strain. Fine by me. In the end, this again just reinforced my point in both accounts. The mis / disinformation is not coming from ‘conservatives’ but the from these liberals.

1. The current US administration, and the Democratic party, are very clearly violating US citizens’ civil rights. This needs to stop. To this point, you disagree with me as you’d rather see the country turn to a policed state to ensure we do what you’ve decided to do for yourself, right (?).
2. If this vaccine is as effective as they say it is, approve the darn thing. They cannot.
3. The vaccine’s efficacy rate is not any *better* than the survival rate illustrated prior to its administration.

(* As a side note – this happens more times than not when people heavily rely on Google.)

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Obviously the data is not invalid, for the purposes of what the database was constructed for, namely as an ear for a variety of data, from different sources reporting negative events that may, or may not be associated with the vaccines. 

My remark concerned the possibility of gathering anecdotal information from those near you that are working with hospitalized COVID patients, whether they note a trend of more being severely ill and dying being among the vaccinated or unvaccinated population.

Oh, I certainly don't want to confuse facts, in fact, clarification is my only intent - and yes, primarily for myself by comparison with another POV (yours) I have not discounted.  If we stick to the facts, we cannot err much, and maybe learn.


<snip>

As for estimates of how effective the vaccines are, I can point you to the link I provided previously, but out of curiosity compared charts from both the estimated effectivity and worldometers, somewhat to scale and timeline for your consideration.  Again, this is just a 'guesstimate', but do consider that effectiveness in the small study above replicates efficacy from trials, there may be more truth than untruth with the estimate.  I do find the estimate somewhat optimistic, but am neither a statistician nor fully knowledgeable and qualified to get down to the nitty-gritty with such. It does give me a comfortable level of confidence, that given a bit of time, my supposition, in general, will be supported by the facts.

Actually, no. You may think that, doesn't make it so. This, again, proves what I've been saying all these time. People Google things and all cognitive diligence grinds to a halt.

How about I do this, let us extract information from a source we can agree is ‘good enough’ to use for now instead of having you Google all sorts of sites for this exercise?

Let us use world-o-meter’s since that's the one we can agree is good enough for now.

What the death rate in the US before patient ‘1’ (New York’s Sarah Lindsey), logarithmically, and what it became after the 2 -week period after December 14th of (Dec. 28th) its administration. Fair enough?

We can splice these in any chronological measure: daily, weekly, bi-monthly, monthly (I know you’re very fond of using ‘graphs’, maybe because it’s pretty to look at. I’d rather see *numbers* and I'll show you why).

Impact of the Virus in the US:
~ February 29, 2020 (John Doe 1st casualty) to Present time (a/o this post): Total Cases = 34,849,155. Total Death = 623,870; Recovered: 29,324,356; Survival Rate: 98.18%

Period before vaccine:
~ February 29,2020 to December 28, 2020 (10 months without vaccine): Total cases: 19,963,379
Total Death = 353,705; Recovered: 7,310, 591; Survival Rate: 98.23%

Period after Vaccine:
~ December 28, 2020 to Present Time (A-B): Total Cases = 14,225,776; Total Death =  270,165; Survival Rate = 98.1%

Extraction – death rate w/out vaccine: Monthly average = 35,371; Death rate with the vaccine; 38,595 You can extract your bi-monthly, weekly, bi-weekly, daily, per hour/per minute, etc. accordingly. STRICTLY based on these resulting numbers, tell me what/where the *efficiency* value of the vaccine you claim? Clearly, any positive impact, chronologically, should mark an improvement at any degree or level, wouldn't you think?

Digest this a little; and let me know where you believe it’s wrong.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 15, 2021, 12:42:46 PM
Extractiondeath rate w/out vaccine: Monthly average = 35,371; Death rate with the vaccine; 38,595 You can extract your bi-monthly, weekly, bi-weekly, daily, per hour/per minute, etc. accordingly. STRICTLY based on these resulting numbers, tell me what/where the *efficiency* value of the vaccine you claim? Clearly, any positive impact, chronologically, should mark an improvement at any degree or level, wouldn't you think?


Italics above should say:
Average (monthly) death rate prior to administration of the vaccine/s (10 months) = 35,371
Average (monthly) death rate after administration of the vaccine/s, (7 months inc. the 2-week period required) = 38,595.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 15, 2021, 12:53:39 PM
Quote from: BillyB's Signature Line
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials.
BillyB-

I hope you take this as intended.

Do some deeper diligence and find out exactly where these *funds* are really headed to. Just be careful. No need to answer this post. It's a just thought I'm sharing.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 15, 2021, 02:32:03 PM
Sheesh...you have too much time on your hands -  :P  But, OK...But it wasn’t a ‘sub-topic’. It was a part of the double-pronged subject being discussed. I shall leave no doubt you’d pounce on the subject had the political affiliation is opposite that of yours.

What I am sure of GQ, is that any government efforts to encourage folks to get vaccinated will have to be within the bounds of our Constitution.  I stated that clearly in my previous post.  Anything beyond that is purely subjective and speculative.  Easy.

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This sheds a sad reminder of the current state of political affairs today, and additional past biased acknowledgment of the following events in time: Iraq / Libya / Vietnam / the Balkans destructions; project MKUltra; the suspension / abolition of the writ of habeas corpus, support and promotion of violent protests, etc.

It’s only criminal if one political party is behind it. Now, you can begin adding more to those.

I'll share my opinion, and read yours.  As in a previous discourse with BillyB, I'd like to drill down to a layer of substance and not dwell on subjective opinions and distractions, aka Deny, Divert, Discredit - that end up as argument rather than discourse.

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Real world data? Funny. Real world data had been established since this pandemic went global, in which you yourself had used countless times and had always been reliant of its information - even today counting your latest post. It’s just that the information from this *real world data* apparently is nullifying your narrative.

Well BC. I’d at least give you a ‘B’* for effort. You really dug deep in Goggle’s algorithm to come up with Fedson’s ‘abstract’. Unfortunately, the very definition of it should’ve alerted you to carefully consider its content beforehand. Obviously, you didn’t. Within its ‘abstract’ own verbiage, it was clearly telling you that your search for a definitive value of a vaccine *efficiency* is akin to chasing a ghost, for lack of a better term.
There are a multitude of reasons why you will just dive deeper in hypothesis trying to chase this when dealing with viruses. For starters, there will always be a perpetual viral mutation creating variants, so any ‘efficiency’ value of a vaccine becomes useless. The annual influenza proves this point well enough. People still die every year.

An abstract is simply a summary.  This abstract highlighted the difference between efficacy determined in vaccine trials vs how effective a vaccine is in the 'real world'.

Quote
To further prove this point (yesterday), the UK just released a report that from Feb 1 – June 21st, over 63% of folks who died of the delta variant had received at least one dose. BUT, while it still maintained there’s benefit of getting (fully) vaccinated, it admits that fully vaccinated people are still dying because of the virus. In their study, it’s largely age-related.

http://theconversation.com/most-covid-deaths-in-england-now-are-in-the-vaccinated-heres-why-that-shouldnt-alarm-you-163671 (http://theconversation.com/most-covid-deaths-in-england-now-are-in-the-vaccinated-heres-why-that-shouldnt-alarm-you-163671)

Of course, fully vaccinated folks still die, but less than in the unvaccinated population.  If a country reaches 100% vaccination rate, all the people that die will have been vaccinated. I discussed and posted the same article a while back in this thread.  UK shows almost 90% have had at least one dose.  http://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations

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In short order, you can wait till the cows come home waiting for an efficiency value in this current strain. Fine by me. In the end, this again just reinforced my point in both accounts. The mis / disinformation is not coming from ‘conservatives’ but the from these liberals.

1. The current US administration, and the Democratic party, are very clearly violating US citizens’ civil rights. This needs to stop. To this point, you disagree with me as you’d rather see the country turn to a policed state to ensure we do what you’ve decided to do for yourself, right (?).

Thanks for your opinions, GQ.  As stated above, any actions on the part of the government is subject to our Constitution and law.

Quote
2. If this vaccine is as effective as they say it is, approve the darn thing. They cannot.
3. The vaccine’s efficacy rate is not any *better* than the survival rate illustrated prior to its administration.

A bit of patience is needed for the bureaucrats to cross the t's and dot the i's.  Let it play out.  I'm very confident it will be approved fairly soon, but that is my opinion.

Quote
(* As a side note – this happens more times than not when people heavily rely on Google.)

Actually, no. You may think that, doesn't make it so. This, again, proves what I've been saying all these time. People Google things and all cognitive diligence grinds to a halt.

Sure, the internet is a mixed bag, one has to research to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Quote
How about I do this, let us extract information from a source we can agree is ‘good enough’ to use for now instead of having you Google all sorts of sites for this exercise?

Let us use world-o-meter’s since that's the one we can agree is good enough for now.

What the death rate in the US before patient ‘1’ (New York’s Sarah Lindsey), logarithmically, and what it became after the 2 -week period after December 14th of (Dec. 28th) its administration. Fair enough?

We can splice these in any chronological measure: daily, weekly, bi-monthly, monthly (I know you’re very fond of using ‘graphs’, maybe because it’s pretty to look at. I’d rather see *numbers* and I'll show you why).

Impact of the Virus in the US:
~ February 29, 2020 (John Doe 1st casualty) to Present time (a/o this post): Total Cases = 34,849,155. Total Death = 623,870; Recovered: 29,324,356; Survival Rate: 98.18%

Period before vaccine:
~ February 29,2020 to December 28, 2020 (10 months without vaccine): Total cases: 19,963,379
Total Death = 353,705; Recovered: 7,310, 591; Survival Rate: 98.23%

Period after Vaccine:
~ December 28, 2020 to Present Time (A-B): Total Cases = 14,225,776; Total Death =  270,165; Survival Rate = 98.1%

Extraction – death rate w/out vaccine: Monthly average = 35,371; Death rate with the vaccine; 38,595 You can extract your bi-monthly, weekly, bi-weekly, daily, per hour/per minute, etc. accordingly. STRICTLY based on these resulting numbers, tell me what/where the *efficiency* value of the vaccine you claim? Clearly, any positive impact, chronologically, should mark an improvement at any degree or level, wouldn't you think?

Digest this a little; and let me know where you believe it’s wrong.

As stated in my prior post, worldometers would be great if it broke down deaths with vaccinated and unvaccinated.  It doesn't.

What we do have so far in terms of assessments of vaccine effectiveness is summarized well in the article below.  You'll just have to learn to be patient for more.  I understand you have trust issues, but do note that the article covers a number of countries and studies, some peer reviewed.

http://www.mja.com.au/journal/2021/effectiveness-covid-19-vaccines-findings-real-world-studies

Quote
Real world studies

In five countries (Israel, England, Scotland, the United Kingdom, Sweden and the United States of America) researchers have analysed routinely collected data to report the early outcomes of community-wide vaccination programs with three of the first vaccines to reach market – the BNT162b2 mRNA (Pfizer/BioNTech) mRNA-1273 (Moderna) and ChAdOx1 adenoviral vector (Oxford/AstraZeneca) vaccines.5,6,7,8,9

At this time only two of the papers (from Israel and Scotland) have been peer reviewed5,6, so details reported here may change after revisions to the other reports.7,8,9 There is a rapidly growing literature on community impact of COVID-19 vaccines that have provided very consistent evidence of substantial vaccine effectiveness. We think it is unlikely that these findings will be change significantly with future research.

Quote
Conclusions

We can draw important conclusions from these non-randomised studies of vaccine effectiveness. Most importantly the currently available COVID-19 vaccines appear to be effective in preventing severe complications and deaths from COVID-19 in adults of all ages.

To try and determine anything more at this early stage would only be speculative.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 15, 2021, 04:19:11 PM
What I am sure of GQ, is that any government efforts to encourage folks to get vaccinated will have to be within the bounds of our Constitution.  I stated that clearly in my previous post.  Anything beyond that is purely subjective and speculative.  Easy.

I'll share my opinion, and read yours.  As in a previous discourse with BillyB, I'd like to drill down to a layer of substance and not dwell on subjective opinions and distractions, aka Deny, Divert, Discredit - that end up as argument rather than discourse.

An abstract is simply a summary.  This abstract highlighted the difference between efficacy determined in vaccine trials vs how effective a vaccine is in the 'real world'.

Of course, fully vaccinated folks still die, but less than in the unvaccinated population.  If a country reaches 100% vaccination rate, all the people that die will have been vaccinated. I discussed and posted the same article a while back in this thread.  UK shows almost 90% have had at least one dose.  http://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations (http://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations)

Thanks for your opinions, GQ.  As stated above, any actions on the part of the government is subject to our Constitution and law.

A bit of patience is needed for the bureaucrats to cross the t's and dot the i's.  Let it play out.  I'm very confident it will be approved fairly soon, but that is my opinion.

Sure, the internet is a mixed bag, one has to research to separate the wheat from the chaff.

As stated in my prior post, worldometers would be great if it broke down deaths with vaccinated and unvaccinated.  It doesn't.

What we do have so far in terms of assessments of vaccine effectiveness is summarized well in the article below.  You'll just have to learn to be patient for more.  I understand you have trust issues, but do note that the article covers a number of countries and studies, some peer reviewed.

http://www.mja.com.au/journal/2021/effectiveness-covid-19-vaccines-findings-real-world-studies (http://www.mja.com.au/journal/2021/effectiveness-covid-19-vaccines-findings-real-world-studies)

To try and determine anything more at this early stage would only be speculative.


Lordy, okay..

I cited efficacy and you bring up 'efficiency'. I said it's hypothetical, then you tell me be patient and cites websites' abstracts which basically comes with: inconclusive statements.

You just used worldometer in your graphs and riposte. So I used and dug deeper on the very information within, and showed you where you're amiss, now it (worldometer) isn't 'good enough'?!?! 

Bottom line, we've obviously reduced this to the very point I made on the onset. Vaccine at this time, based on the clinical study done, and information they have on hand at present time, is NOT better than the 98+% survival rate in the US's reported COVID-19 cases.

That's about as *factual* as it is ever gonna get. Far more *factual* than any inconclusive 'abstract' statement you can ever Google, now or in the future - whether you like to acknowledge this or not.

There has NOT been a 100% efficiency in curing any known virus. Not yesterday, not today. Fact. The only way this current virus can better the KNOWN survival rate, is for it to become a *100% efficient*, which it will not and can never be. Like the influenza before it, it perpetually mutates. What it treats today, is basically practically useless tomorrow. That's is the current 'fact' we have today.

If you immunized 100 people, and one survived - that's 1% efficient. 100 survived - 100%.  You, along with all the abstracts and site you can ever Google, can never conclude any vaccine can achieve 100% efficiency, at least not as of today - or at any time prior. Feel free waiting...

My statement above, and those before it, are not an opinion.
 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 15, 2021, 04:43:03 PM
Do some deeper diligence and find out....


Already did that. Now for a gag order on you GQ. Everybody in LA county vaccinated or not got to put the mask back on. Think its bad now. Wait till Winter.


http://www.npr.org/2021/07/15/1016621872/la-county-masks-indoors-covid-19-coronavirus

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 15, 2021, 04:49:00 PM

Already did that. Now for a gag order on you GQ. Everybody in LA county vaccinated or not got to put the mask back on. Think its bad now. Wait till Winter.


I know. For indoors. I have citizen app and received notification at 2 this afternoon. Begins this Saturday.


What these mandate is NOT telling you, the spike is mostly centralized in *certain neighborhoods*, which they cannot isolate and mandate solely. As you might know, certain Los Angelenos are more likely to 'die' of the virus than others.


So for the sake of NOT being called a 'racist', I shall not dive deeper into this 'fact.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 16, 2021, 02:05:17 AM

Lordy, okay..

I cited efficacy and you bring up 'efficiency'. I said it's hypothetical, then you tell me be patient and cites websites' abstracts which basically comes with: inconclusive statements.

You just used worldometer in your graphs and riposte. So I used and dug deeper on the very information within, and showed you where you're amiss, now it (worldometer) isn't 'good enough'?!?! 

Bottom line, we've obviously reduced this to the very point I made on the onset. Vaccine at this time, based on the clinical study done, and information they have on hand at present time, is NOT better than the 98+% survival rate in the US's reported COVID-19 cases.

That's about as *factual* as it is ever gonna get. Far more *factual* than any inconclusive 'abstract' statement you can ever Google, now or in the future - whether you like to acknowledge this or not.

There has NOT been a 100% efficiency in curing any known virus. Not yesterday, not today. Fact. The only way this current virus can better the KNOWN survival rate, is for it to become a *100% efficient*, which it will not and can never be. Like the influenza before it, it perpetually mutates. What it treats today, is basically practically useless tomorrow. That's is the current 'fact' we have today.

If you immunized 100 people, and one survived - that's 1% efficient. 100 survived - 100%.  You, along with all the abstracts and site you can ever Google, can never conclude any vaccine can achieve 100% efficiency, at least not as of today - or at any time prior. Feel free waiting...

My statement above, and those before it, are not an opinion.

GQ,

From the 6-month post second dose update of the Pfizer trial (required by FDA) published in April 2021, 927 confirmed symptomatic cases were observed.

From the placebo group, 850 symptomatic infections, 21 of which were severe.
From the vaccinated group, 77 symptomatic infections in the vaccinated group, only 1 of which was severe.

FDA and CDC calculate efficacy with different methods.
FDA at 95.3% vs 100% for CDC

http://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-confirm-high-efficacy-and-no-serious

Quote
Criteria for the third classification, which identifies severe COVID-19 cases in clinical trials, includes a confirmed COVID-19 test (per the above guidelines), as well as one of the following symptoms: clinical signs of severe systemic illness, respiratory failure, evidence of shock, significant acute kidney, liver, or brain dysfunction, admission to an ICU, or death.
http://health-desk.org/articles/how-does-pfizer-identify-cases-of-covid-19-in-its-clinical-trials

20:1 odds of severe COVID without the vaccine.  I'll take the 1.

There.. you got efficacy.

As far as how this has affected the data at worldometers.info, other than the estimates I provided, there is none.  There is not enough data collected vaccinated vs unvaccinated to make any accurate guess.

How that efficacy applies in practice (real world) has only been properly studied in Israel, where vaccinated/unvaccinated is known and deaths are classified as well.

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2101765

3607 symptomatic cases vse 2389 for vaccinated folks
259 hospitalizations vs 110 for vaccinated folks
174 severe covid cases vs 55 for vaccinated folks
32 deaths vs 9 for vaccinated folks

(http://i.postimg.cc/wxVrYJ6Y/Screen-Shot-2021-07-16-at-10-43-05.png)

Again, I'll take the 9.

As far as safety is concerned, we have to fall back to 'all reasons' deaths from the trial.  6 deaths, 4 among the unvaccinated and two among the vaccinated group. 

Quote
A total of six deaths occurred in the reporting period (2 deaths in the vaccine group, 4 in
placebo). In the vaccine group, one participant with baseline obesity and pre-existing
atherosclerosis died 3 days after Dose 1, and the other participant experienced cardiac arrest
60 days after Dose 2 and died 3 days later. Of the four deaths in the placebo arm, the cause
was unknown for two of them, and the other two participants died from hemorrhagic stroke
(n=1) and myocardial infarction (n=1), respectively; three deaths occurred in the older group
(>55 years of age). All deaths represent events that occur in the general population of the age
groups where they occurred, at a similar rate.

http://www.fda.gov/media/144245/download

So other than counting jellybeans, I don't believe there is much to add at this point.  As more peer reviewed studies come out, we can revisit.










Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 16, 2021, 10:07:35 AM
Phew! Too many 'words'! Numbers however do a much better job simplifying our lives. Too bad not more people rely on them for important information. 1s and 0s....


The evil of virtual age, I guess.


So you can hopefully give Google a rest, (you remind me of BillyB, and a couple of other members here, with you guys' total dependency on Google) it appears based on your Googled sites, the controlled and monitored clinical trials actually yielded a much better survival rate for (unvaccinated) folks compared to current *real World data*!! Literally a full percentage point!!


Wow! How awesome is that!? It really makes you wonder what really drives Democrats to want to turn our republic into a policed state based on what appears to be junk science! Talk about mis / disinformation! Can you just imagine the uproar had the 'other guy' been the one to propose having private companies monitor, interject, listen in and invade the public's personal communication?!? Holy Molly! Who voted for these guys?


Anyway, you did a good job proving them wrong, BC, by your use of Google, you showed us controlled, closely monitored clinical studies even yielded a higher rate of survival!!! And those folks didn't even have to inject experimental soup that even our very own government, and medical administrators alike, cannot, will not, not in your dreams- approve!!


I'm happy I was able to help crunch these numbers out with you..


 ;D


Bottom line in all of these, I'm glad you, and others like you - including wifey, found comfort in getting vaccinated! I am still banking my decision in the reported survival rate from this virus. Which, incidentally, FWIW, is likely grossly understated if you add the asymptomatic cases in that mx. That's a fact, right?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 16, 2021, 11:00:47 AM
Phew! Too many 'words'! Numbers however do a much better job simplifying our lives. Too bad not more people rely on them for important information. 1s and 0s....

I did offer to count jellybeans for you. But you're smarter than that.


Quote
The evil of virtual age, I guess.


So you can hopefully give Google a rest, (you remind me of BillyB, and a couple of other members here, with you guys' total dependency on Google) it appears based on your Googled sites, the controlled and monitored clinical trials actually yielded a much better survival rate for (unvaccinated) folks compared to current *real World data*!! Literally a full percentage point!!


There are differences in how folks use the internet.  Some folks don't read further than the headlines, much less understand anything more complicated than 'he/she done it'.

As far as the differences between trials and real world, yes there are differences.  Also since the trials we have the influence of variants that are making a difference as well.


Quote
Wow! How awesome is that!? It really makes you wonder what really drives Democrats to want to turn our republic into a policed state based on what appears to be junk science! Talk about mis / disinformation! Can you just imagine the uproar had the 'other guy' been the one to propose having private companies monitor, interject, listen in and invade the public's personal communication?!? Holy Molly! Who voted for these guys?

Private companies do it all the time.  Do you use email?  This forum? Facebook and other social sites?  How about your credit card companies etc etc.  Yes it is intrusive and something should be done about it.  The government can't, so they simply pay to post ads like any other bizness and don't need to know one thing about who was presented the criteria.  "Show it to virus hesitant people" is enough.   


Quote
Anyway, you did a good job proving them wrong, BC, by your use of Google, you showed us controlled, closely monitored clinical studies even yielded a higher rate of survival!!! And those folks didn't even have to inject experimental soup that even our very own government, and medical administrators alike, cannot, will not, not in your dreams- approve!!

No worries here, I've checked and double-checked all possible.  I'm comfortable.  Your difficulties will remain yours.


Quote
I'm happy I was able to help crunch these numbers out with you..


 ;D

I enjoyed it as well.  Learned a bit too which is always great.

Quote
Bottom line in all of these, I'm glad you, and others like you - including wifey, found comfort in getting vaccinated! I am still banking my decision in the reported survival rate from this virus. Which, incidentally, FWIW, is likely grossly understated if you add the asymptomatic cases in that mx. That's a fact, right?

Statistics are never valid for the individual.  Flip of a coin.  Do stick around though.  Be careful out there.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on July 16, 2021, 05:51:57 PM
I'm glad you, and others like you - including wifey, found comfort in getting vaccinated! I am still banking my decision in the reported survival rate from this virus. Which, incidentally, FWIW, is likely grossly understated if you add the asymptomatic cases in that mx. That's a fact, right?

Don't do it
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 16, 2021, 06:22:24 PM



UK has one of the highest vaccination rates among nations. Their infections are skyrocketing now up to 48,000 per day. Same time last year when vaccines did not exist, daily infections were averaging less than 800 per day.


http://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 16, 2021, 10:23:28 PM
Indeed.  Very interesting.

Last May UK was in full lockdown IIRC.  In addition, testing was still a problem back then.

(http://i.postimg.cc/wx4D3d4F/Screen-Shot-2021-07-17-at-07-15-41.png)

Trying not to project, but something is noticeably different in the charts this time around.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 17, 2021, 09:15:21 AM
Last May UK was in full lockdown IIRC.



Government may just rule lockdowns, not vaccines are the trick to beat the virus.




In addition, testing was still a problem back then.



That may be true but testing last month in June was just as abundant as testing this month. The infections from last month to this month
are skyrocketing.



Trying not to project, but something is noticeably different in the charts this time around.




Deaths remain low although infections are skyrocketing but why is government silent about giving safe and effective treatments credit? All the attention is on the vaccines when we know for a fact treatments have helped people recover and saved their lives. If safe and effective treatments exist, government must revoke emergency use authorization given to experimental vaccines. We're all going to get the Coronavirus sooner or later and if not vaccinated, let our own immune system beat it.


I was in the same room as a friend who got COVID and breathe the same air but never got sick and never got any symptoms. He has natural immunity. Maybe I do too. Lots of people have natural immunity but governments around the world want to take away their freedoms if they don't take an experimental vaccine. Governments aren't even offering an antibody test to see if people acquired natural immunity to give them a waiver from having to take an experimental vaccine. Why?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 17, 2021, 10:08:24 PM

Government may just rule lockdowns, not vaccines are the trick to beat the virus.

Lockdowns are a good way to beat the virus and save lives, but everyone has to participate and have the discipline to do it right, and at the same time, worldwide.  We didn't, and as soon as restrictions were lifted, the virus took hold again.

Quote


That may be true but testing last month in June was just as abundant as testing this month. The infections from last month to this month
are skyrocketing.


With lockdowns and other restrictions lifted many disregarded other precautions.  It seems vaccines are doing the heavy lifting, preventing many hospitalizations and deaths.


Quote
Deaths remain low although infections are skyrocketing but why is government silent about giving safe and effective treatments credit? All the attention is on the vaccines when we know for a fact treatments have helped people recover and saved their lives. If safe and effective treatments exist, government must revoke emergency use authorization given to experimental vaccines. We're all going to get the Coronavirus sooner or later and if not vaccinated, let our own immune system beat it.[/font]

The vaccines will be fully approved soon.  Although treatments have improved, it is many, many times more expensive, and likely not as effective as vaccines for reducing hospitalization and death.

Quote
I was in the same room as a friend who got COVID and breathe the same air but never got sick and never got any symptoms. He has natural immunity. Maybe I do too. Lots of people have natural immunity but governments around the world want to take away their freedoms if they don't take an experimental vaccine. Governments aren't even offering an antibody test to see if people acquired natural immunity to give them a waiver from having to take an experimental vaccine. Why?

Some countries do accept antibody tests, or certification that someone has already had COVID.  Here such was also used to prioritize vaccines, along with other criteria like age and medical conditions to ensure folks who were not infected, and the more vulnerable got their shots first.  Anyone can get an antibody test, they're pretty cheap.  Travel to the US still requires at least a rapid test, even if vaccinated.  Putting 'we' before 'me' takes only a few minutes, which is fine.  I'll do my part, even to help those who refuse to do theirs.  I'll still wear masks in stores and other densely populated areas, I'll still carry a little bottle of disinfectant.  As for freedoms, I feel much more free and at ease nowadays than just a few months ago.  It is kind of odd that it's usually those who don't to do squat for themselves or others are the ones that complain about freedom.



 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Maxx2 on July 18, 2021, 02:55:18 AM



I was in my restaurant with a friend. A Georgian man that knew my friend was passing by. He told us his father-in-law was in the hospital. He had taken the vaccine, a blood clot formed and went to his brain and he is in a coma.


I seen the interview of the former Vice President of Pfizer and vaccine researcher. He said all the animals used in testing of the vaccine died in the equivalent of 1 to 2 years of human life. He said the vaccine changes the immune system and warned strongly against using it. 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 18, 2021, 04:04:51 AM
What animals?

Mice live 12-18 months.  Some animals are put down.  Does he still work at Pfizer, or any other labs now producing vaccines?  What substantiation did he provide?

Quote
Due to the urgent need for a vaccine in a surging pandemic, Pfizer and Moderna were given approval to simultaneously test their vaccines on animals while they were conducting Phase 1 trials on humans. The vaccines were tested on mice and macaques.

http://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9792931264
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 18, 2021, 04:13:52 AM


I was in my restaurant with a friend. A Georgian man that knew my friend was passing by. He told us his father-in-law was in the hospital. He had taken the vaccine, a blood clot formed and went to his brain and he is in a coma.


I seen the interview of the former Vice President of Pfizer and vaccine researcher. He said all the animals used in testing of the vaccine died in the equivalent of 1 to 2 years of human life. He said the vaccine changes the immune system and warned strongly against using it.

That's pretty disturbing Maxx, glad I had the AZ Vaccine and not the Pfizer one, let's hope humans fair better with it. All of my close family had the AZ vaccine that is done with the old tried and tested way. Just need to hope that they did it in a sound enough way using that method. If the animals used in testing died as a result of the Pfizer vaccine and not just destroyed as routine procedure then the fear could be pretty grim for those that took the Pfizer vaccine in a year or so's time. Let's hope it's all going to be ok.

In the UK at present the Norovirus is back on the way up:

"Norovirus outbreaks increasing in England - GOV.UK" http://www.gov.uk/government/news/norovirus-outbreaks-increasing-in-england

It's apparently an unpleasant bug with vomiting, etc. Mostly just very unpleasant but to vulnerable people and those unfortunate potentially deadly. I remember hearing of it a few years ago when there was an outbreak. I fortunately avoided it but a fair few people at work caught it. They apparently cleaned every surface with anti bacterial but still people continued to catch it. Either they didn't do a good job of cleaning, the virus was very infectious or they all used it for an excuse to get some paid time off lol.

Anyway, the fear is that Norovirus, Flu's, etc could be a big threat after a low season last year. I booked in my Flu Jab for this winter yesterday for mid September as I would prefer to be quick of the mark and avoid all of that :)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 18, 2021, 06:09:24 AM
Apparently we might be facing another panic buy period at the supermarkets here in the UK as a result of our pingdemic:

"UK facing food shortages as ‘pingdemic’ forces millions into self-isolation – Metro" http://metro.co.uk/2021/07/17/uk-facing-food-shortages-as-pingdemic-causes-staff-absences-14943703/amp/

Luckily I decided to delete my test & trace app just over a week ago now. I don't go out to social stuff and take decent precautions, anti bacterial, masks, etc so should be fine. No point in second guessing a problem I probably don't have I think.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 18, 2021, 07:03:29 PM
  Does he still work at Pfizer, or any other labs now producing vaccines?  What substantiation did he provide?



I've posted links and videos of the man numerous times here. Did you read and watch? Dr. Yeadon graduated the top of his class. He worked at numerous biotech companies and later became the VP and Chief science officer at Pfizer. He left the company on good terms and started his own biotech company which he later sold to a big pharma company for $350 million. He now is involved in 20 ventures. There's nobody at the FDA approving vaccines that has achieved as much as he has. He's worth listening to.




For the second week in a row, there are more vaccination deaths than COVID deaths in America. Keep in mind, there are much more vaccine deaths than actually reported. This also does not include the short term or permanent damage the vaccines have done to people.


http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/07/second-week-row-covid-19-vaccination-deaths-covid-19-deaths-us-according-cdc-vaers-websites/ (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/07/second-week-row-covid-19-vaccination-deaths-covid-19-deaths-us-according-cdc-vaers-websites/)




Besides 3 other experts in vaccines I've talked about, a fourth, the inventor of mRNA technology is also alarmed about giving the vaccine to healthy people. In this article, he is alarmed so many vaccinated people are still getting infected. This is what those experts warned about. Giving experimental vaccines to healthy people can compromise their immune systems making them more likely to get infected from other pathogens which in turn increased their chances of getting a disease or dying.


http://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/worrying-me-quite-bit-mrna-vaccine-inventor-shares-viral-thread-showing-covid-surge-most (http://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/worrying-me-quite-bit-mrna-vaccine-inventor-shares-viral-thread-showing-covid-surge-most)


47% of the people infected in the UK are vaccinated. Vaccines aren't as as effective as advertised in press releases.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/07/new-uk-study-people-vaccinated-make-47-new-covid-cases/ (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/07/new-uk-study-people-vaccinated-make-47-new-covid-cases/)


60 Politicians got on a plane and none have a mask. I've posted photos of politicians in the past with no masks violating their own rules. Now 5 of them got COVID and all 5 are vaccinated.

http://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/state/2021/07/18/texas-democrats-covid-washington-dc-two-more-test-positive/8008398002/ (http://www.statesman.com/story/news/politics/state/2021/07/18/texas-democrats-covid-washington-dc-two-more-test-positive/8008398002/)


Kamala and Biden say they won't trust the vaccines.

http://t.me/WeTheMedia/26556 (http://t.me/WeTheMedia/26556)


Israel says vaccine is far less effective against variants. Natural immunity is effective against variants according to vaccine experts.

http://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/for-first-time-since-march-855-new-coronavirus-cases-in-israel-674084 (http://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/for-first-time-since-march-855-new-coronavirus-cases-in-israel-674084)



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Maxx2 on July 18, 2021, 11:17:57 PM

I've posted links and videos of the man numerous times here. Did you read and watch?


No, they don't. I searched for a while and then it dawned on me I was wasting my time.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: John Gaunt on July 19, 2021, 08:08:39 AM
Apparently we might be facing another panic buy period at the supermarkets here in the UK as a result of our pingdemic:

"UK facing food shortages as ‘pingdemic’ forces millions into self-isolation – Metro" http://metro.co.uk/2021/07/17/uk-facing-food-shortages-as-pingdemic-causes-staff-absences-14943703/amp/

Luckily I decided to delete my test & trace app just over a week ago now. I don't go out to social stuff and take decent precautions, anti bacterial, masks, etc so should be fine. No point in second guessing a problem I probably don't have I think.

Hope you’re all stocked up with loo roll as that’s often the other casualty of panic buying and you may find yourself reaching for some bog roll and come up empty handed at a most inopportune moment.
If you want to travel I think you’ll have to have that test trace app installed.
Big brothers here to stay methinks.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 19, 2021, 08:30:38 AM
Will the folks who voted for this regime, raise your hands and let it be known.


We had finally arrive to Dystopia, USA; where freedom of speech depends on the approval of the central government and its propaganda media. For those with opposing views to the central government's narrative, you will be universally banned from all social platform today, gulags tomorrow!!! Civil liberty, my arse!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbDySogvKJU

If you think this silliness applies to everyone. Of course not. Don't make the mistake to believe this is NOT a bipartisan move. Who defines dis/misinformation? Of course you know. Otherwise Fauci, CDC, WHO, DNC, etc...would be propped for banning for all the *dis/misinformation* they told all of us from the very beginning of this pandemic!!! Would venues like CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC et al going to be *banned*?


UNBELIEVABLE!!!!


Quote
Just this month, professor Satoshi Omura, who won the Nobel Prize (http://nypost.com/2015/10/05/3-win-nobel-prize-in-medicine-for-beating-parasitic-diseases/) for his work on a drug called ivermectin, was censored on YouTube for discussing how it might help treat COVID-19 patients.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 19, 2021, 09:11:56 AM
http://grftr.news/why-was-a-major-study-on-ivermectin-for-covid-19-just-retracted/

Interesting read for those so inclined.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 19, 2021, 09:20:12 AM
BTW GQ, I think Cyberdemon531 who produced the YouTube video you posted is correct with many of her thoughts.

Did you watch the whole video?  I'm quite surprised you posted it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 19, 2021, 09:26:31 AM

Did you read and watch?

Yes, I generally do watch most of 'em.  He shares his opinion well, but lacks substantive studies to back them up.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 19, 2021, 09:32:29 AM

For the second week in a row, there are more vaccination deaths than COVID deaths in America. Keep in mind, there are much more vaccine deaths than actually reported. This also does not include the short term or permanent damage the vaccines have done to people.


http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/07/second-week-row-covid-19-vaccination-deaths-covid-19-deaths-us-according-cdc-vaers-websites/ (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/07/second-week-row-covid-19-vaccination-deaths-covid-19-deaths-us-according-cdc-vaers-websites/)

From the article:

Quote
The VAERS database contains information on unverified reports of adverse events (illnesses, health problems and/or symptoms) following immunization with US-licensed vaccines.  The CDC government website links to VAERS platform.

We've discussed before what the VAERS database does, and what it does not, it reports adverse effects that possibly may be related to the vaccine.  It is similar to an email inbox that contains large amounts of emails that are not relevant, and you discard.

[/quote]
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 19, 2021, 10:39:41 AM
BTW GQ, I think Cyberdemon531 who produced the YouTube video you posted is correct with many of her thoughts.

Did you watch the whole video?  I'm quite surprised you posted it.


Of course I did. She expressed her opinion, despite some of it being contrary to mine. Why not let it be freely expressed? It would've been easy for me to have chosen another. The underlying message however, which she supported a 1000 fold - is, this regime's suppression of freedom of speech is simply inexcusably un-Constitutional (which you fully support), if not downright criminal.


...I have no issues with health authorities at the state, or federal level doing all they can to provide folks with information to make good choices.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 19, 2021, 11:17:08 AM
Not sure what this (http://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1372) means. It should be suppressed!! Ban all Norwegian news!!! Gulags tomorrow!!!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 19, 2021, 11:51:26 AM
The underlying message however, which she supported a 1000 fold - is, this regime's suppression of freedom of speech is simply inexcusably un-Constitutional (which you fully support), if not downright criminal.

If it's not Constitutional, of course it shouldn't be done.  As mentioned above, there will be those who might test it in court and that's ok.  It's the way our system works.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: mhr7 on July 19, 2021, 12:11:45 PM
Statistics show the stark risks of not getting vaccinated against COVID-19

In Louisiana, 97% of the state's COVID-19 cases and deaths since February have been in unvaccinated people, Gov. John Bel Edwards said Friday. Between February and July, unvaccinated people in Louisiana were 20 times more likely to become infected with COVID-19, according to the state health department.

http://www.yahoo.com/gma/statistics-show-risks-not-getting-100217544.html

Just something for those who think they have all the answers to consider.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 19, 2021, 12:51:19 PM
If it's not Constitutional, of course it shouldn't be done.  As mentioned above, there will be those who might test it in court and that's ok.  It's the way our system works.


The *system* I was always aware of guaranteed freedom of speech w/out government intrusion, and is found on the very first amendment. Dunno, but maybe you have something else in mind.


I'm not aware they deleted or amended this *amendment*. When did that happened?

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 19, 2021, 01:24:16 PM
GQ,

I understand your concern, but remember:

Congress shall make no law....

Also, social media sites are not considered a public forum.

SCOTUS has upheld the rights of private social media to moderate their users and content as they see fit.

I don't see how the Executive Branch, asking social media sites to prevent mis- and disinformation, could be ruled unconstitutional.  Of course, the EB can't order private companies to do anything that has not already been legislated in Congress.

Sorry, I see a lot of hype on this topic, but no foul.  It's not like Biden is signing some Executive Order on this or anything similar any more than his predecessor issuing one forcing social media sites to not ban him or that they must publish his posts. Double-edged sword.

Social media sites can either take EB requests to heart and do something, or they can simply ignore such.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 19, 2021, 02:12:14 PM
It's a given, as I've said before, your stated sentiment is expected by your political leaning. It's predictable.


Social media is a means of communication used by the public at large. You can describe this any way you like, it doesn't change the fact this regime, which is the 3rd branch of our *government*, is CLEARLY abridging the public's freedom of speech.


To instruct cell phone carriers to monitor, intercept and interject communications between persons in text messages, is assigning a private enterprise to *spy* on private communications between individuals.


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 19, 2021, 09:41:57 PM
It's a given, as I've said before, your stated sentiment is expected by your political leaning. It's predictable.

Sure, I support getting the word out about vaccines and dispelling mis and disinformation about the vaccines.


Quote
Social media is a means of communication used by the public at large. You can describe this any way you like, it doesn't change the fact this regime, which is the 3rd branch of our *government*, is CLEARLY abridging the public's freedom of speech.

And exactly how are they abridging speech in a public forum? The EB branch has been asking, even telling private fora what and what not to do for years.

Quote
To instruct cell phone carriers to monitor, intercept and interject communications between persons in text messages, is assigning a private enterprise to *spy* on private communications between individuals.

What facts do you base your statement on?  What's the factual 'ask' you believe the EB is requesting?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 20, 2021, 01:36:20 AM
Sure, I support getting the word out about vaccines and dispelling mis and disinformation about the vaccines.

Deflect 101. Go listen to what Jen Psaki said again. Do keep up.

Quote
And exactly how are they abridging speech in a public forum? The EB branch has been asking, even telling private fora what and what not to do for years.

See above.

Quote
What facts do you base your statement on?  What's the factual 'ask' you believe the EB is requesting?

Isn’t Google your best friend?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 20, 2021, 02:08:59 AM
Isn’t Google your best friend?

Sure, but I'd like to begin where you begin, not with rumors, not with odd interpretations of constitutionality, but with what you believe is the bottom line EB ask of social media companies.

As I understand it:

1. Social media companies (not government) regularly monitors your posts and even correspondence for keywords and phrases to leverage their advertising business, and create algorithms to detect posts and information that does not comply with their terms of service.  All I see being asked is that they do so with more diligence.

2. Mis- and disinformation is indeed dangerous to individuals and society as a whole.  We are not talking about individuals sharing their opinions (although even some of them get caught up in the algorithms) but entire influencing campaigns that are well organized with motives, like generating revenue for a few that can pull it off.  The internet and social websites give those few huge megaphones with a worldwide reach.

3. This is an ask, and not an executive order or such from EB.  I can identify no conflicts with our Constitution, with most objections landing as simply hype.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 20, 2021, 02:29:07 AM
Hope you’re all stocked up with loo roll as that’s often the other casualty of panic buying and you may find yourself reaching for some bog roll and come up empty handed at a most inopportune moment.
If you want to travel I think you’ll have to have that test trace app installed.
Big brothers here to stay methinks.

Thanks JG handy to know about the Test & Trace app could always install it right before flying I guess. Think they withdraw it altogether in mid August if not sooner if they come to their senses. Think they'll come a point where too many get pinged that it won't reflect reality remotely and become useless.

Think the toilet roll panic buying may be getting going again lol.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 20, 2021, 02:46:38 AM
Apparently now that the lockdown has fully lifted in the UK as from yesterday we might see a dramatic rise in all winter viruses:

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/covid-latest-updated-nightclub-passport-nhs-staff-isolation-us-travel-news-b946636.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 20, 2021, 09:27:35 AM
Sure, but I'd like to begin where you begin,

At the point I asked who gets to define dis/mis-information? You? Wouldn't you want the freedom to define things of importance to yourself, and not be force to anything because someone else, even the government, defines it for you?

Quote
not with rumors,

I provided you a clipped video by the White House's own spokesperson's statement. If you call it a rumor, then you know its source.

Quote
not with odd interpretations of constitutionality,


Do tell and point to the alleged 'oddity' in this subject. Attempts to suppress, ban, silence, even the mere 'suggestion' to appoint any non-governmental entity to monitor, interject, silence the public's beliefs, opinion, et al because it counters a narrative, IMO, is at least inflammatory, or worse, a violation of civil rights.

Quote
but with what you believe is the bottom line EB ask of social media companies.

See above.

Bottom line, if there's any dis/mis-information swimming around our society, they are emanating from this regime, its party and it's branches. They're the source of confusion. Even the current mask mandate/recommendation currently in my corner of the world - is directly 'counter' to CDC's statement that all vaccinated folks does not have to wear mask. And why should there by a separation between those that have, from those that haven't - since neither is immune from contracting - and spreading, the virus? Even international travel restrictions have conflicting and varying, even confusing, rules.

Hell, this regime ignored illegal passage through our border of untested/unvaccinated of well over hundreds of thousands illegal aliens in our midst. Should I be silenced if I believe this is the reason why there's a 'rise' in the infection rate all of the sudden? Should I be banned for 'blaming' this regime's slow to non-reaction to this event? (http://freebeacon.com/biden-administration/dem-officials-border-city-say-biden-immigration-policy-poses-covid-threat/)

This regime wants to see a universal submission to an experimental soup? Then approve its administration. Own up to what it is trying to 'force' the public to submit to. Give the public what it wants. If they can't, then what exactly are they forcing upon the public?

 *Absence of evidence* (should) automatically give any/all individual the right to form it's own belief/opinion, and act upon those beliefs/opinion. The public is much too nuanced to try and construct a structured one size fits all mandate, especially when this regime's *own administration/establishment* doesn't really seem to know which end is up themselves. It had shown that it contradicts itself over something they're imposing authority over the masses over and over again.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 20, 2021, 11:58:41 AM
At the point I asked who gets to define dis/mis-information? You? Wouldn't you want the freedom to define things of importance to yourself, and not be force to anything because someone else, even the government, defines it for you?

I provided you a clipped video by the White House's own spokesperson's statement. If you call it a rumor, then you know its source.

Do tell and point to the alleged 'oddity' in this subject. Attempts to suppress, ban, silence, even the mere 'suggestion' to appoint any non-governmental entity to monitor, interject, silence the public's beliefs, opinion, et al because it counters a narrative, IMO, is at least inflammatory, or worse, a violation of civil rights.

See above.

Bottom line, if there's any dis/mis-information swimming around our society, they are emanating from this regime, its party and it's branches. They're the source of confusion. Even the current mask mandate/recommendation currently in my corner of the world - is directly 'counter' to CDC's statement that all vaccinated folks does not have to wear mask. And why should there by a separation between those that have, from those that haven't - since neither is immune from contracting - and spreading, the virus? Even international travel restrictions have conflicting and varying, even confusing, rules.

Regarding masks, there are federal authorities that can only suggest minimum requirements.  What does your state say the minimum requirements are?  http://covid19.ca.gov/masks-and-ppe/  Keep in mind these are minimum.  I always wear a mask indoors in public buildings and commercial buildings i.e. for shopping, and outside areas where safe distancing cannot be practiced.  Why separate for vaccinated / unvaccinated?  Doesn't take a rocket scientist for that.  Indeed, it can get even more complicated traveling internationally. 

What EB is proposing was discussed prior. 

What I don't understand is why balk at all the differences.  Each state wanted to handle their own COVID response and requirements, you supported that didn't you?  And now you want the federal .gov to make the rules that all have to abide by?  Doesn't make logical sense.  You can’t eat your cake and have it, too.

Quote
Hell, this regime ignored illegal passage through our border of untested/unvaccinated of well over hundreds of thousands illegal aliens in our midst. Should I be silenced if I believe this is the reason why there's a 'rise' in the infection rate all of the sudden? Should I be banned for 'blaming' this regime's slow to non-reaction to this event?

Of course, you are entitled to express your opinion in a public forum.

Quote
This regime wants to see a universal submission to an experimental soup? Then approve its administration. Own up to what it is trying to 'force' the public to submit to. Give the public what it wants. If they can't, then what exactly are they forcing upon the public?

Nobody is forcing anyone to get vaccinated.  It's information.  If I ask you how fast I can drive on a particular road, and you tell me 120mph, you gonna take responsibility and pay the ticket?  If you were also ignorant, that's misinformation.  If you wanted ill will, or if it would give you a few bucks more in your pocket, or for some form of influence, it would be disinformation.

Quote
*Absence of evidence* (should) automatically give any/all individual the right to form it's own belief/opinion, and act upon those beliefs/opinion. The public is much too nuanced to try and construct a structured one size fits all mandate, especially when this regime's *own administration/establishment* doesn't really seem to know which end is up themselves. It had shown that it contradicts itself over something they're imposing authority over the masses over and over again.

Again, the federal .gov is trumped by state and local laws and regulations when it comes to imposing health restrictions and requirements.  You seem to be barking up the wrong tree, confused or frustrated.  The latter I can also relate to, but hey these are challenging times at many levels.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 20, 2021, 12:34:55 PM
Well, it looks like France (http://www.reuters.com/world/europe/french-protests-call-freedom-amid-government-vaccine-push-2021-07-17/) will soon be banned in the US for spreading dis-information...


 ::)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 20, 2021, 12:59:22 PM
Double
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 20, 2021, 01:07:29 PM
Regarding masks, there are federal authorities that can only suggest minimum requirements.  What does your state say the minimum requirements are?  http://covid19.ca.gov/masks-and-ppe/ (http://covid19.ca.gov/masks-and-ppe/)  Keep in mind these are minimum.  I always wear a mask indoors in public buildings and commercial buildings i.e. for shopping, and outside areas where safe distancing cannot be practiced.  Why separate for vaccinated / unvaccinated?  Doesn't take a rocket scientist for that.  Indeed, it can get even more complicated traveling internationally.  What EB is proposing was discussed prior.  What I don't understand is why balk at all the differences.  Each state wanted to handle their own COVID response and requirements, you supported that didn't you?  And now you want the federal .gov to make the rules that all have to abide by?  Doesn't make logical sense.  You can’t eat your cake and have it, too.

Too far off the left field. So I've no idea what exactly are you saying I'm balking about. I couldn't care less what Montana is doing in their corner anymore than I'd care what Oregon is doing in theirs. I do care about this regime's attempt to define dis / mis-information on their own and act upon it for those who doesn't agree.
 
That's central governing IMO.
 
Quote
Of course, you are entitled to express your opinion in a public forum.

Thank you. That's what the internet is for FWIW.
 
Quote
Nobody is forcing anyone to get vaccinated.

Or so I thought. Then discriminating certain societal liberties started to rear it's ugly heads.
 
Quote
It's information.  If I ask you how fast I can drive on a particular road, and you tell me 120mph, you gonna take responsibility and pay the ticket?

Hell, NO! You asked for an honest opinion, I gave it to you. So then you acted upon it, better believe YOU ARE responsible for your own action. If I asked you if this vaccine is OKAY, and you gave me your honest opinion, and it ended up killing me, it doesn't make you responsible for my death now, is it? 
 
You understand the nuance and complexity now?
 
Quote
If you were also ignorant, that's misinformation.  If you wanted ill will, or if it would give you a few bucks more in your pocket, or for some form of influence, it would be disinformation.

Wrong. Society at large is composed of individuals that are nuanced and complex. Ask a Muslim who God is and he'll tell you. Doesn't mean he's spreading dis/mis-information simply because you're a jew or christian. Nor did it mean he's ignorant. On the contrary.
 
Quote
Again, the federal .gov is trumped by state and local laws and regulations when it comes to imposing health restrictions and requirements.  You seem to be barking up the wrong tree, confused or frustrated.  The latter I can also relate to, but hey these are challenging times at many levels.

If anyone is doing any tree barking, it's you. The very fact YOU have ZERO idea what is actually going on *here* other than what you can gleam on the internet and Google, makes you hardly an 'authority' over someone who actually is living it 'here'.
 
When it comes to imposing health restrictions, especially where *I am* (where YOU'RE NOT*), I ought to know so much better than you about this subject. CDC proclaimed no mask mandate for the vaccinated, health officials recommends mask mandates indoors for everyone including vaccinated folks. LA County sheriffs office declared they will not enforced such mandate because it is not backed by guidance of the CDC (http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/07/17/los-angeles-county-sheriff-will-not-enforce-mask-mandate-saying-it-is-not-backed-by-science/). So Federal, State and local governments, including its law enforcement agencies are in total disagreement and disarray - which one of these idiots is spreading dis / mis-information and who should we ban and silenced?


Heck, should we now silence and ban you since you didn't know and had a mis-informed opinion about it?
 
Biden declared yesterday Facebook is killing people. Today he said it's not really what he meant. Should he be silenced and banned?
 
The fact you couldn't tell me who is 'in authority' to define dis/mis-information for all, tells me you don't know either. Should you be banned or silenced, maybe monitor your communications, since absence of evidence is apparent with you?
 
Bottom line, your desperate deflection of this silly slippery slope this dimwitted regime got itself into is indicative of your denial this regime has ZERO idea what to do and how to properly handle this current situation. You cannot defend the indefensible.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 20, 2021, 01:37:01 PM
Will the folks who voted for this regime, raise your hands and let it be known.


We had finally arrive to Dystopia, USA; where freedom of speech depends on the approval of the central government and its propaganda media. For those with opposing views to the central government's narrative, you will be universally banned from all social platform today, gulags tomorrow!!! Civil liberty, my arse!




If you think this silliness applies to everyone. Of course not. Don't make the mistake to believe this is NOT a bipartisan move. Who defines dis/misinformation? Of course you know. Otherwise Fauci, CDC, WHO, DNC, etc...would be propped for banning for all the *dis/misinformation* they told all of us from the very beginning of this pandemic!!! Would venues like CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC et al going to be *banned*?


UNBELIEVABLE!!!!


Social media has already been censoring and banning millions of people even before the White House gave their blessing. Disinformation and misinformation aren't the only things targeted. Anything, including truth, causing 'vaccine hesitancy' will be removed. Experts in vaccines can be censored or banned if they aren't saying good things about the vaccines. If COVID vaccines were so great, there shouldn't be such a struggle to promote it.


This morning Senator asks FDA director and commissioner how many children died from COVID and both couldn't answer the question. Think about that considering they want to give kids experimental vaccines. They lack knowledge on the pros and cons of the product they're pushing.

http://t.me/WeTheMedia/26750 (http://t.me/WeTheMedia/26750)


Attorney suing on behalf of America's Frontline Doctors saying 45K died from vaccines and has CDC whistleblower as witness.

http://rumble.com/vk1vsx-45k-dead-from-the-covid-shot-watch-atty-renz-lay-out-his-lawsuit.html (http://rumble.com/vk1vsx-45k-dead-from-the-covid-shot-watch-atty-renz-lay-out-his-lawsuit.html)

http://americasfrontlinedoctors.org/files/alabama-preliminary-injunction/ (http://americasfrontlinedoctors.org/files/alabama-preliminary-injunction/)


1600 sailors on British carrier and 100 vaccinated sailors got COVID. Methinks the efficacy isn't what is advertised in their press release.

http://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/3141136/uk-navys-flagship-hit-covid-19-outbreak-en-route-asia (http://www.scmp.com/news/world/europe/article/3141136/uk-navys-flagship-hit-covid-19-outbreak-en-route-asia)

http://nypost.com/2021/07/14/covid-19-infects-about-100-vaccinated-crewmembers-on-hms-queen-elizabeth-report/ (http://nypost.com/2021/07/14/covid-19-infects-about-100-vaccinated-crewmembers-on-hms-queen-elizabeth-report/)



As this experiment continues, here is an example how news changes over time.

http://gab.com/KanekoaTheGreat/posts/106605640094626578 (http://gab.com/KanekoaTheGreat/posts/106605640094626578)


Pharma executives promoting mixing vaccines. So if you got the J & J shot, they would like you to take an mRNA Moderna or Pfizer shot for a booster. Of course, this is for your protection. Lets not take one type of experimental vaccine but two! All these different type of solutions being offered since nobody seems to have the answer. The answer could be as simple as allowing our own natural immunity handle it.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-11/pharma-executives-seeking-higher-immunity-mix-own-covid-shots?utm_source=url_link (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-06-11/pharma-executives-seeking-higher-immunity-mix-own-covid-shots?utm_source=url_link)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 20, 2021, 02:40:31 PM
It appears that maybe a huge number of Europeans will soon be silenced and banned by our current regime!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mkvFk1tlJc
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 20, 2021, 02:56:24 PM

Too far off the left field. So I've no idea what exactly are you saying I'm balking about. I couldn't care less what Montana is doing in their corner anymore than I'd care what Oregon is doing in theirs. I do care about this regime's attempt to define dis / mis-information on their own and act upon it for those who doesn't agree.
 
That's central governing IMO.

No, right on home plate.
 
Quote
Thank you. That's what the internet is for FWIW.

Yep, you can open gqblues.com and do whatever you want with it with a few obvious limitations.  You could even ban me for example and I couldn't do anything about that.
 
Quote
Or so I thought. Then discriminating certain societal liberties started to rear it's ugly heads.

Anything illegal or unconstitutional?
 
Quote
Hell, NO! You asked for an honest opinion, I gave it to you. So then you acted upon it, better believe YOU ARE responsible for your own action. If I asked you if this vaccine is OKAY, and you gave me your honest opinion, and it ended up killing me, it doesn't make you responsible for my death now, is it? 
 
You understand the nuance and complexity now?

Nothing nuanced or complex about that, is there?  It's crystal clear, which is the point I was making.
 
Quote
Wrong. Society at large is composed of individuals that are nuanced and complex. Ask a Muslim who God is and he'll tell you. Doesn't mean he's spreading dis/mis-information simply because you're a jew or christian. Nor did it mean he's ignorant. On the contrary.

They all worship the same God.  What's so nuanced or complex about that?

 
Quote
If anyone is doing any tree barking, it's you. The very fact YOU have ZERO idea what is actually going on *here* other than what you can gleam on the internet and Google, makes you hardly an 'authority' over someone who actually is living it 'here'.

Again, your opinion is fine, but adds no substance to your line of discourse.
 
Quote
When it comes to imposing health restrictions, especially where *I am* (where YOU'RE NOT*), I ought to know so much better than you about this subject. CDC proclaimed no mask mandate for the vaccinated, health officials recommends mask mandates indoors for everyone including vaccinated folks. LA County sheriffs office declared they will not enforced such mandate because it is not backed by guidance of the CDC (http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/07/17/los-angeles-county-sheriff-will-not-enforce-mask-mandate-saying-it-is-not-backed-by-science/). So Federal, State and local governments, including its law enforcement agencies are in total disagreement and disarray - which one of these idiots is spreading dis / mis-information and who should we ban and silenced?

And?  It has been in disarray since the virus emerged.  Think about it, you again make my point.

Quote
Heck, should we now silence and ban you since you didn't know and had a mis-informed opinion about it?

Probably best to address this with whom you have issues with, leadership in the state you reside in.
 
Quote
Biden declared yesterday Facebook is killing people. Today he said it's not really what he meant. Should he be silenced and banned?

Public forum?
 
Quote
The fact you couldn't tell me who is 'in authority' to define dis/mis-information for all, tells me you don't know either. Should you be banned or silenced, maybe monitor your communications, since absence of evidence is apparent with you?

I already addressed this, that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.  Does take a level head, though.

Quote
Bottom line, your desperate deflection of this silly slippery slope this dimwitted regime got itself into is indicative of your denial this regime has ZERO idea what to do and how to properly handle this current situation. You cannot defend the indefensible.

Interesting, heard the same words about the last regime you fully supported.  Good for the goose.....
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 20, 2021, 03:12:07 PM
No, right on home plate.

Again, your opinion. Free to express it. Wonderful world, isn't it?
 
Quote
Yep, you can open gqblues.com and do whatever you want with it with a few obvious limitations.  You could even ban me for example and I couldn't do anything about that.

Obviously, you either didn't understand, or maybe a bit slow on the uptake. This regime ushering social MEDIA to universally 'ban' people 'it' defines as spreading dis / mis-information.

Get it now?

Quote
Anything illegal or unconstitutional?

Yup. Last I know 'discrimination' is illegal.
 
Quote
Nothing nuanced or complex about that, is there?  It's crystal clear, which is the point I was making.

An expressed honest opinion, even belief should NOT be banned nor silence. I am glad to know you finally understood.
 
Quote
They all worship the same God.  What's so nuanced or complex about that?

Hhhmmm...apparently not. But *ignorance* is bliss.
 
Quote
Again, your opinion is fine, but adds no substance to your line of discourse.

Again, your opinion. Free to express it. Wonderful world, isn't it?

Quote
And?  It has been in disarray since the virus emerged.  Think about it, you again make my point.

Nope. Current regime is but only 7 months in. Previous administration did not usher social media to ban or silence anyone who sought freedom of expression. If anything, folks like you fully subscribed to *fake news*, remember? You didn't get silenced or banned for biting into the Russia Gate hook line and sinker baby. Amongst other things.

Quote
Probably best to address this with whom you have issues with, leadership in the state you reside in.

Then why even have an opinion about it then to begin with? But of course, again, you are free to express it regardless of the obvious ignorance.

Quote
Public forum?

Yup. Wouldn't it be wonderful if he was?

Quote
I already addressed this, that it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.  Does take a level head, though.

No you didn't. You may believe you did, bit I wouldn't hold it against you, nor would I want to see you banned or silenced.


Quote
Interesting, heard the same words about the last regime you fully supported.  Good for the goose.....

Even making things up i.e. dis-information; to prolong your denial should subject you to being banned or silenced. At least according to this regime's definition.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 20, 2021, 04:11:38 PM


It didn't start with gas chambers. It started with one party controlling the media. One party controlling the message. One party deciding what is truth. One party censoring speech and silencing opposition. One party dividing citizens into "US" and "Them" and calling on their supporters to harass "them". It started when good people turned a blind eye and let it happen.

http://t.me/SidneyPowell/1344 (http://t.me/SidneyPowell/1344)

You guys ever wonder how people can support bad government, even one as bad as Hitler's? Open your eyes to see how it is done.



Rand Paul warns Fauci lying to Congress can get him jail time.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uWM25U5ey0
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 20, 2021, 04:19:18 PM
A very objective view about the population's hesitancy about the vaccine. A view this current regime is too dimwitted to understand, much less 'consider'.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHzGrx53dqY


>> To counter perceived misinformation, you don't need censorship. You need patient contextualization. Better education. << pp
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 20, 2021, 05:04:01 PM



If government and health officials truly want to keep people alive and believe the vaccine to be the answer, they would get rid of the health officials that deceived the public starting with Fauci who said the virus was natural last year. People won't listen to people they don't trust. Like GQ's video mentioned, people's concerns aren't being addressed. People's concerns are being censored which raises even more alarms. Government isn't behaving like adults. They are behaving like children. Shut up, trust us and take the vaccine.


This whole thing is political. Remember the video I put up with Kamala and Biden saying they wouldn't trust the vaccine Trump worked on? They said the vaccine was going to hurt people until they took control.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 20, 2021, 11:27:31 PM
Again, your opinion. Free to express it. Wonderful world, isn't it?

Sure, as long as this forum tolerates the discussion.
 
Quote
Obviously, you either didn't understand, or maybe a bit slow on the uptake. This regime ushering social MEDIA to universally 'ban' people 'it' defines as spreading dis / mis-information.

Get it now?

I get your point, but obviously do not agree with it, which is fine. Your word choice is interesting. "Ushering" implies a form of authority, which the administration does not have.  They are suggesting social media companies strengthen their stance on mis- and disinformation.  Many already take steps to reduce propagation of such, i.e. http://www.facebook.com/communitystandards/false_news 

You OTOH imply an exercise of authority that would indeed be contrary to our Constitution.  This is a self-made issue you are creating that simply does not exist.  IOW, much ado about nothing.

Make sense now?

Quote
Yup. Last I know 'discrimination' is illegal.

Discrimination is legal except for:

Race, Color, or National Origin
Gender, Sex, or Sexual Orientation
Religion
Pregnancy or Disability
Age
Genetic Information

The rest is fair game.  You're attempting to make my dislike of broccoli illegal.
 
Quote
An expressed honest opinion, even belief should NOT be banned nor silence. I am glad to know you finally understood.
 
You are correct, in a public forum.

Quote
Hhhmmm...apparently not. But *ignorance* is bliss.

Open for discussion, but such is not tolerated on this private forum per published posting guidelines.
 
Quote
Again, your opinion. Free to express it. Wonderful world, isn't it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ske9LerkhUc

Quote
Nope. Current regime is but only 7 months in. Previous administration did not usher social media to ban or silence anyone who sought freedom of expression. If anything, folks like you fully subscribed to *fake news*, remember? You didn't get silenced or banned for biting into the Russia Gate hook line and sinker baby. Amongst other things.

I could well have been silenced, even here at RWD, as many of those discussions were against forum guidelines.

Quote
Then why even have an opinion about it then to begin with? But of course, again, you are free to express it regardless of the obvious ignorance.

Yup. Wouldn't it be wonderful if he was?

No you didn't. You may believe you did, bit I wouldn't hold it against you, nor would I want to see you banned or silenced.

I have no issue with being silenced or banned from fora that are not public.  You, OTOH, do.

Quote
Even making things up i.e. dis-information; to prolong your denial should subject you to being banned or silenced. At least according to this regime's definition.

I understand the Constitution fairly well, thus have no issues with goings-on that surround your unfounded objections.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 21, 2021, 01:05:07 AM
A very objective view about the population's hesitancy about the vaccine. A view this current regime is too dimwitted to understand, much less 'consider'.

>> To counter perceived misinformation, you don't need censorship. You need patient contextualization. Better education. << pp

Nice video GQ, and a decent overview.

I do agree that inserting politics into the equation is still, today, a huge issue and the evidence is clear.  It also didn't start with the current regime.  We could have been much better off without political headwinds and hot air.  At the moment, seems to be more like fighting fire with fire.

(http://i.postimg.cc/JzDkC8dH/Screen-Shot-2021-07-21-at-10-00-20.png)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 21, 2021, 08:22:45 AM
This 'hot spot' map by NYT seem to work well enough to give one an idea what is going on nationwide, per county, for case accounting. I'm not sure how accurate the tracking is, and how often (if they in fact are updating this on a daily basis, or just utilizing average end method).


http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 21, 2021, 09:10:38 AM
Thanks GQ.

Looking at the map, what immediately came to mind is an email comment from a business friend a while back...

(http://i.postimg.cc/SNvxTWNW/Screen-Shot-2021-07-21-at-18-08-49.png)

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 21, 2021, 09:50:45 AM
Yeah, well, so there you go...there's a myriad of reasons why many aren't vaccinated, or refuse to. This reality isn't just prevailing in the US (apparently).


On the posted video/interview, they noted that a huge number of adult black Americans, and in some respect, Latinos, make up a interesting group of unvaccinated. If true, this dispels any thought that refusal to get vaccinated is mostly by 'white conservative' lot.


If you browse over the 'vaccinated tab' on the NYT map page, it's interesting to see Missouri's overall reluctance towards the vaccine. Almost resembling the attitude or behavior in LA's predominantly black neighborhoods. Arkansas is even worse....
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 21, 2021, 12:19:00 PM
Sure, as long as this forum tolerates the discussion.
 
I get your point, but obviously do not agree with it, which is fine. Your word choice is interesting. "Ushering" implies a form of authority, which the administration does not have.  They are suggesting social media companies strengthen their stance on mis- and disinformation.  Many already take steps to reduce propagation of such, i.e. http://www.facebook.com/communitystandards/false_news (http://www.facebook.com/communitystandards/false_news) 

You OTOH imply an exercise of authority that would indeed be contrary to our Constitution.  This is a self-made issue you are creating that simply does not exist.  IOW, much ado about nothing.

Make sense now?

Discrimination is legal except for:

Race, Color, or National Origin
Gender, Sex, or Sexual Orientation
Religion
Pregnancy or Disability
Age
Genetic Information

The rest is fair game.  You're attempting to make my dislike of broccoli illegal.
   
You are correct, in a public forum.

Open for discussion, but such is not tolerated on this private forum per published posting guidelines.
 
I could well have been silenced, even here at RWD, as many of those discussions were against forum guidelines.

I have no issue with being silenced or banned from fora that are not public.  You, OTOH, do.

Hhhmmm.

1. You seem to keep trying to imply anything within the sphere of the internet, especially those (specifically mentioned) social media i.e instagram, twitter, FB, even RWD as venues outside the purview of public domain.
Quote
The Supreme Court has recognized that the Internet in general, and social media in particular, has become a critical forum for the expression of protected speech. And the federal courts of appeals have held that the government can create public forums on the Internet.


Darn good article regarding this idiocy: http://chicago.suntimes.com/2021/7/21/22587266/president-biden-facebook-vaccine-misinformation-censorship-jacob-sullum

2. Two levels of law against discrimination: Federal and State; California Discrimination Law: Under California law, it is a civil right to have the opportunity to seek and hold employment without discrimination based on a race, religion, sexual orientation, and other forms of unlawful discrimination.

3. God: I didn't realize *Christ*-ian represented the 'father'. When did that happen?

Quote from: BC
I understand the Constitution fairly well, thus have no issues with goings-on that surround your unfounded objections.
Again, you're always entitled to your opinion. Isn't that wonderful knowing you won't be banned or censored upon expressing such; that there're laws that guarantee you the right of free expression? Well, apparently until now...

The US office of the dimwit ushering social media, and SMS carriers alike, to monitor, ban/censor, intercept communications by the public, etc...who have opposing views or opinions of their own is simply appalling.

And that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 21, 2021, 02:48:33 PM
Hhhmmm.

1. You seem to keep trying to imply anything within the sphere of the internet, especially those (specifically mentioned) social media i.e instagram, twitter, FB, even RWD as venues outside the purview of public domain.

Indeed, when someone registers a domain name and opens it for input from the consumer, it is not a public forum, as the domain owner controls it and can apply whatever rules they want, or none, similar to private property.  When the government registers a domain name and opens it for comments from the public, it is a public forum, and anyone and everyone can respond however they wish unless it is contrary to law.  If a government official opens an account on a private platform allowing responses or comments, they must abide by the rules of the domain owner, BUT they cannot restrict who can and cannot reply (as long as it's not illegal or contrary to the domain owner rules).

http://www.npr.org/2019/07/09/739906562/u-s-appeals-court-rules-trump-violated-first-amendment-by-blocking-twitter-follo

Quote
Darn good article regarding this idiocy: http://chicago.suntimes.com/2021/7/21/22587266/president-biden-facebook-vaccine-misinformation-censorship-jacob-sullum

Yes, it is a good article, thanks.  I believe courts, if the matter comes before them, will determine that a suggestion or 'ask' is quite different from a lawful order, or exercise of authority. After all, such carries no weight for a private person or biz to act.

Quote
2. Two levels of law against discrimination: Federal and State; California Discrimination Law: Under California law, it is a civil right to have the opportunity to seek and hold employment without discrimination based on a race, religion, sexual orientation, and other forms of unlawful discrimination.

Sure, 'other' are likely Pregnancy or Disability, Age and Genetic Information.  Know of any others that apply in general, or regard employment only?

Quote
3. God: I didn't realize *Christ*-ian represented the 'father'. When did that happen?
Again, you're always entitled to your opinion. Isn't that wonderful knowing you won't be banned or censored upon expressing such; that there're laws that guarantee you the right of free expression? Well, apparently until now...

As I understand it, expression is simply speech without words. Burning flags and waving Nazi flags comes to mind, either on your own property (which may also be subject to further regulation or codicil), or public space.  Such may not be allowed on someone else's property without permission.  Has always been that way or?  Other limitations exist as well i.e. defamation, true threats or some forms of harmful intimidation.

Quote
The US office of the dimwit ushering social media, and SMS carriers alike, to monitor, ban/censor, intercept communications by the public, etc...who have opposing views or opinions of their own is simply appalling.

And that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

That's fine, but I think you're drawing your pistol from an emotional standpoint, which may differ if one considers factual contexts as discussed above and in prior posts.

The internet is quite free, gqblues.com is available and waiting for ya for only 99 cents! Exercise your rights to free speech and expression as you wish!
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 21, 2021, 03:15:12 PM
Truly heartbreaking.

http://nypost.com/2021/07/21/its-too-late-doctor-forced-to-turn-down-covid-patients-begging-for-vaccine/

(http://i.postimg.cc/43QGnbgc/Screen-Shot-2021-07-22-at-00-12-32.png)

http://www.facebook.com/brytneysnowcobia/posts/10200951240955876
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 21, 2021, 03:39:48 PM
Indeed, when someone registers a domain name and opens it for input from the consumer, it is not a public forum, as the domain owner controls it and can apply whatever rules they want, or none, similar to private property.  When the government registers a domain name and opens it for comments from the public, it is a public forum, and anyone and everyone can respond however they wish unless it is contrary to law.  If a government official opens an account on a private platform allowing responses or comments, they must abide by the rules of the domain owner, BUT they cannot restrict who can and cannot reply (as long as it's not illegal or contrary to the domain owner rules).

http://www.npr.org/2019/07/09/739906562/u-s-appeals-court-rules-trump-violated-first-amendment-by-blocking-twitter-follo (http://www.npr.org/2019/07/09/739906562/u-s-appeals-court-rules-trump-violated-first-amendment-by-blocking-twitter-follo)

Yes, it is a good article, thanks.  I believe courts, if the matter comes before them, will determine that a suggestion or 'ask' is quite different from a lawful order, or exercise of authority. After all, such carries no weight for a private person or biz to act.

Sure, 'other' are likely Pregnancy or Disability, Age and Genetic Information.  Know of any others that apply in general, or regard employment only?

As I understand it, expression is simply speech without words. Burning flags and waving Nazi flags comes to mind, either on your own property (which may also be subject to further regulation or codicil), or public space.  Such may not be allowed on someone else's property without permission.  Has always been that way or?  Other limitations exist as well i.e. defamation, true threats or some forms of harmful intimidation.

That's fine, but I think you're drawing your pistol from an emotional standpoint, which may differ if one considers factual contexts as discussed above and in prior posts.

The internet is quite free, gqblues.com is available and waiting for ya for only 99 cents! Exercise your rights to free speech and expression as you wish!


No need for GQBlues.com these days as I'm happily married. When I was single, yeah, as it would've been the only way I can fit all my females followers in a single domain.


More importantly however, you keep omitting the fact dimwit's intent was to usher, mark or cause private domain/entities/corporations, etc..(because Constitutionally, government cannot) to universally ban anyone who express opinion 'it' defines as mis / dis-information, and to monitor private text messages between folks so any expressed message opposite to his dimwitted message should be intercepted and be subjected to his 'correction'. You can apply semantics for convenience or deflection, but optic remains the same.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 21, 2021, 05:03:21 PM
Truly heartbreaking.

(http://i.postimg.cc/43QGnbgc/Screen-Shot-2021-07-22-at-00-12-32.png)


Actually, at best, I'm indifferent. If the family is in a state of ignorance about any/all matters regarding COVID-19, sorry to say, they have it coming. Either death by the virus, or the vaccine, they should've at least made a conscious decision one way or another and live by it. Or die...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: tfcrew on July 21, 2021, 05:31:44 PM
Why haven’t the vaccines available in the United States been approved yet?
Quote
All three vaccines have been given an emergency use authorization (EUA), which FDA offers during crises as a quick way to give people access to potentially lifesaving medicines. In the past, EUAs have typically been used for drugs during “very catastrophic, immediate circumstances, like an anthrax attack,” says Jesse Goodman, a former chief scientist at FDA who’s now at Georgetown University. The COVID-19 pandemic marks the first time EUAs have been granted for new vaccines.
When will COVID-19 vaccines be fully approved—and does it matter whether they are?
  By Rachel Fritts    (http://www.sciencemag.org/author/rachel-fritts)Jul. 21, 2021 , 11:00 AM
http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/07/when-will-covid-19-vaccines-be-fully-approved-and-does-it-matter-if-they-are



 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 21, 2021, 05:35:16 PM


John Hopkins study show ZERO COVID deaths among healthy children. Our medical 'experts' want to put experimental vaccines in their bodies. Crazy! Ex VP of Pfizer said the vaccine kills kids 50-1 over COVID. It's best to let our healthy kids natural immune system handle the virus and gain natural immunity. I wish our government would give people more info so they can make a more informed decision on whether or not to inject an experimental vaccine into their and their kids bodies.

http://thefederalist.com/2021/07/21/johns-hopkins-study-found-zero-covid-deaths-among-healthy-kids/ (http://thefederalist.com/2021/07/21/johns-hopkins-study-found-zero-covid-deaths-among-healthy-kids/)


Democratic politician tweets today that we need to follow the science and she says everybody needs to put back on the masks. Here's a picture of her unmasked in a plane where 6 fully vaccinated politicians got COVID.

http://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1417883921451151360 (http://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1417883921451151360)


Typically 50 vaccine deaths will get the government to remove it off the market. We're up to 11,000 deaths and today's government continues to promote the product.

http://t.me/SidneyPowell/1349 (http://t.me/SidneyPowell/1349)



Fauci's hand shaking showing he's nervous about yesterday's Senate hearing. Senator Rand Paul sent a criminal referral to FBI today because Fauci lied about gain of function to the Senate. I don't know why our health experts aren't working hard to find the origins of the virus. It's important to know how it came to be so we can prevent it from happening again.

http://t.me/WeTheMedia/26823 (http://t.me/WeTheMedia/26823)


Fox host says media and social media been covering for Fauci and censoring truth.

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/07/culpable-lying-needs-held-accountable-sen-ron-johnson-says-time-go-fauci-funding-gain-function-research-lying-oath-video/ (http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/07/culpable-lying-needs-held-accountable-sen-ron-johnson-says-time-go-fauci-funding-gain-function-research-lying-oath-video/)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 21, 2021, 11:15:30 PM
Why haven’t the vaccines available in the United States been approved yet?  When will COVID-19 vaccines be fully approved—and does it matter whether they are?

In due course.  I would expect full approval sometime around the end of the year.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 22, 2021, 01:22:00 AM
More importantly however, you keep omitting the fact dimwit's intent was to usher, mark or cause private domain/entities/corporations, etc..(because Constitutionally, government cannot) to universally ban anyone who express opinion 'it' defines as mis / dis-information, and to monitor private text messages between folks so any expressed message opposite to his dimwitted message should be intercepted and be subjected to his 'correction'. You can apply semantics for convenience or deflection, but optic remains the same.

I agree the message could have been delivered in a more understandable fashion.  For example, "The administration suggests that social media companies work together and do a better job of leveraging their targeted advertising, and phrase detection systems to reduce the spread of miss/disinformation, especially from offenders that can produce hundreds of posts across many social platforms in very short periods of time.

In essence, this is what they are saying, albeit badly.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 22, 2021, 02:13:13 AM

John Hopkins study show ZERO COVID deaths among healthy children. Our medical 'experts' want to put experimental vaccines in their bodies. Crazy! Ex VP of Pfizer said the vaccine kills kids 50-1 over COVID. It's best to let our healthy kids natural immune system handle the virus and gain natural immunity. I wish our government would give people more info so they can make a more informed decision on whether or not to inject an experimental vaccine into their and their kids bodies.

Was it a study or an analysis of data, that may or may not be representative of the whole?

 
Quote
[If our research] holds, it has significant implications for healthy kids and whether they need two vaccine doses,” Makary says.

Of course, further review, along with identifying what pool of data used (which seems to indicate those covered by *which?* Healthcare plans) would help.


Quote
Democratic politician tweets today that we need to follow the science and she says everybody needs to put back on the masks. Here's a picture of her unmasked in a plane where 6 fully vaccinated politicians got COVID.

Obviously, masks are still a good idea, especially in crowded or enclosed spaces.


Quote
Typically 50 vaccine deaths will get the government to remove it off the market. We're up to 11,000 deaths and today's government continues to promote the product.

Again, you misuse VAERS data.  Learn how to use the official database and compare with other vaccines, even those required to attend school.  It's not that awful hard. Many hundreds, if not thousands of deaths are listed in VAERS for a number of common vaccines.

Quote
While very important in monitoring vaccine safety, VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness.
from VAERS webpage http://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html
Quote
Fauci's hand shaking showing he's nervous about yesterday's Senate hearing. Senator Rand Paul sent a criminal referral to FBI today because Fauci lied about gain of function to the Senate. I don't know why our health experts aren't working hard to find the origins of the virus. It's important to know how it came to be so we can prevent it from happening again.

Cute.  My hands would probably be shaking as well, sitting in that particular chair. 

Quote
Fox host says media and social media been covering for Fauci and censoring truth.

Opinion.

Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Maxx2 on July 22, 2021, 02:45:47 AM



Someone I know that used to live in Georgia.


(http://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51327804253_02219b2b2a_z.jpg)


First thing she did when she got back to the States was to get vaccinated. She was very proud of it. (Expats can'r be vaccinated as that is reserved for Georgian citizens.)


Guess her politics....



Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Maxx2 on July 22, 2021, 02:57:18 AM



My daughter worked in the hospitality sector since high school. I often wonder if her 8 months of forced unemployment led to her death? The Law of Unintended Consequences? 
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 22, 2021, 05:53:35 AM
No Maxx,

her disease did.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Maxx2 on July 22, 2021, 08:06:03 AM
No Maxx,

her disease did.


A "Death from despair" from depression.     
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 22, 2021, 10:07:58 AM
Was it a study or an analysis of data, that may or may not be representative of the whole?

 
Of course, further review, along with identifying what pool of data used (which seems to indicate those covered by *which?* Healthcare plans) would help.


Obviously, masks are still a good idea, especially in crowded or enclosed spaces.


Again, you misuse VAERS data.  Learn how to use the official database and compare with other vaccines, even those required to attend school.  It's not that awful hard. Many hundreds, if not thousands of deaths are listed in VAERS for a number of common vaccines.
 from VAERS webpage http://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html (http://vaers.hhs.gov/data.html)
Cute.  My hands would probably be shaking as well, sitting in that particular chair. 

Opinion.


BC-

I'll submit that sometimes BillyB pushes the envelop much too much on one side. But putting this aside, do you ever wonder too that maybe sometimes, in your perceived notion to represent facts and reality, that maybe are engaging in the same suit you accuse BillyB of sporting?

None of us have the monopoly to fully know what your government is doing/not doing.

The only truth available to all us today is how sad we still put full faith in the establishments despite knowing, especially in this VERY recent years, that our institutions, politicians, along with the mainstream media - have openly, bare-faced and blatantly LIED to all of us these past few years.

Let's engage in critical thinking exchange instead of aggressively and immediate denouncement of other people's belief or perception simply because it *seemingly* runs counter to mainstream's current narrative.

The lab leak theory in itself have proven this point so far even if any of the investigation proved this to be eventually *wrong*. How will we ever really know?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 22, 2021, 12:35:19 PM
Looks like the EU are headed for financial trouble:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1466328/eurozone-news-eu-public-debt-economy-gdp-euro-european-union-ECB

Debt way above 100 GDP in most of the EU countries with the exception of Germany. Here in the UK its just below 100 percent GDP, around 97 percent if I recall correctly.

Italy debt is now around 160 percent of GDP so they could have problems paying it off and could end up defaulting on their debt. Greece's debt is now 209 percent of GDP so a again could risk defaulting on their debt and a second Greek Crises.

The EU as a whole the debt to GDP has reached around 92 percent of GDP so their potential to take on any more debt to sort out the economic problems is likely to be fairly limited now.

So it's looking like the Coronavirus's economic fallout is going to hit some countries hard. Given the EU's previous track record at handling or rather perhaps not handling crises it's probably best the UK is clear of it.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 22, 2021, 01:06:32 PM

BC-

I'll submit that sometimes BillyB pushes the envelop much too much on one side. But putting this aside, do you ever wonder too that maybe sometimes, in your perceived notion to represent facts and reality, that maybe are engaging in the same suit you accuse BillyB of sporting?

Let's engage in critical thinking exchange instead of aggressively and immediate denouncement of other people's belief or perception simply because it *seemingly* runs counter to mainstream's current narrative.


GQ,

Note: I changed the sequence of your statements above.

BillyB does not seem to be interested in an exchange of critical thinking.  Instead, his motivations are to instigate and provoke. He is simply posting any links he can scrape off the bottom of the barrel and posting them here repeatedly.  I only ask questions and post contrasting information.  He already received a rather stern warning about such.

Quote
None of us have the monopoly to fully know what your government is doing/not doing.

You are correct, GQ, but it serves no purpose at all to consistently and insistently post fallacious, one-sided exchanges.  Akin to handing folks brooms and donkeys to fight imaginary windmills.

Quote
The only truth available to all us today is how sad we still put full faith in the establishments despite knowing, especially in this VERY recent years, that our institutions, politicians, along with the mainstream media - have openly, bare-faced and blatantly LIED to all of us these past few years.

That is a very broad statement, with many facets that have been explored and opined upon over the last years.  Sometimes, only history will provide answers we seek, long down the road.  Our adversarial approach to government is obviously counterproductive, and dangerous.  Just as an example, when the Mueller report is brought up, everyone either wants to attack, or defend the Trump Campaign, or .gov  What many do not see is the larger picture clearly showing outside influences that desire exactly this type of divisive force in play that weakens us as a nation.
 
Quote
The lab leak theory in itself have proven this point so far even if any of the investigation proved this to be eventually *wrong*. How will we ever really know?

We may never *know*, but can take it one step at a time.  IIRC we discussed previously the next assessments in mid-August.  None of us here has a chance in hell of *knowing* more till then, and possibly nothing more than is already known.  That is why I believe it is better to express an opinion than to present opinions as fact, as is often done here.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 22, 2021, 02:40:51 PM
Looks like the EU are headed for financial trouble:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1466328/eurozone-news-eu-public-debt-economy-gdp-euro-european-union-ECB (http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1466328/eurozone-news-eu-public-debt-economy-gdp-euro-european-union-ECB)

Debt way above 100 GDP in most of the EU countries with the exception of Germany. Here in the UK its just below 100 percent GDP, around 97 percent if I recall correctly.

Italy debt is now around 160 percent of GDP so they could have problems paying it off and could end up defaulting on their debt. Greece's debt is now 209 percent of GDP so a again could risk defaulting on their debt and a second Greek Crises.

The EU as a whole the debt to GDP has reached around 92 percent of GDP so their potential to take on any more debt to sort out the economic problems is likely to be fairly limited now.

So it's looking like the Coronavirus's economic fallout is going to hit some countries hard. Given the EU's previous track record at handling or rather perhaps not handling crises it's probably best the UK is clear of it.


Every country is in the same boat, Trench.


The US is at over 107% of its GDP, and we're still not only giving money away, we had also allotted $100 billion dollars to update our nuclear arsenal.


It is what it is...
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 22, 2021, 07:15:03 PM

  I would expect full approval sometime around the end of the year.


With no long term studies completed? What will approval do anyway? Make people feel good about getting the shot? It'll still be the most deadliest and harmful vaccine in history the government allowed people to take. Approval isn't going to make it any safer

The virus that's a threat now are the variants. Most people today are infected with the variants so it really doesn't matter if the vaccine for the original virus gets approved. They have to create all new experimental vaccines for the variants. UK has so many people vaccinated, they are near 'herd immunity' yet they are having an outbreak in the middle of summer that rivals last winter's outbreak.




BC-

I'll submit that sometimes BillyB pushes the envelop much too much on one side. But putting this aside, do you ever wonder too that maybe sometimes, in your perceived notion to represent facts and reality, that maybe are engaging in the same suit you accuse BillyB of sporting?




BC pushes what he's been sold. He truly believes vaccines are the answer. Aren't people here tired of hearing one side of the story given by the government and scientific community they bought? BillyB is one little guy in this whole ordeal and without him, who here would've known about 4 leading experts in vaccines that are anti COVID vaccines?

Without what I posted, who here would've known the vaccines could compromise our immune systems leading to early death? No long term studies have been completed. Who would've known about the fine print in FDA and vaccine manufacture documents that significant benefits and risks are unknown? Who here would've known the scientific community and peer review journals pertaining to the virus was influenced by government money and had to support government narrative? Who here would've known that your own immunity system could handle the virus and it's variants easily unlike vaccines that are specialized to handle specific viruses but not its variants which translates to an ongoing need of specialize vaccines? Who here would've known that the vaccines themselves are responsible for creating all these variants which in turn creates a need for more vaccines?

I do research before injecting experimental stuff into my body. The experts I posted about here have been silenced and the alarming fine print in FDA documents aren't promoted so people can make an informed decision. They don't want us to have all the info because they don't want vaccine hesitancy. Those experts are speaking out because they care about humanity. So do I. I'm not trying to sell anything. A simple "thank you" would be nice.


Last night Biden was asked when will children under 12 be able to get vaccinated. Can somebody tell me what he said?

http://t.me/WeTheMedia/26909
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on July 22, 2021, 07:33:11 PM
http://t.me/WeTheMedia/26909

:::::sigh:::::

Have they authorized use of a Coherent Vaccine yet? I’m starting to feel really sorry this guy. You have to wonder what world leaders are saying watching him.

Sad.

Sadder still is, I hope he lives out his term because despite his condition, I prefer him over Harris. That isn’t a joke either. We really are screwed.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 22, 2021, 09:36:49 PM

It'll still be the most deadliest and harmful vaccine in history the government allowed people to take.
Quote
Without what I posted, who here would've known the vaccines could compromise our immune systems leading to early death?
Quote
Who would've known about the fine print in FDA and vaccine manufacture documents that significant benefits and risks are unknown?
Quote
Who here would've known the scientific community and peer review journals pertaining to the virus was influenced by government money and had to support government narrative?
Quote
Who here would've known that your own immunity system could handle the virus and it's variants easily unlike vaccines that are specialized to handle specific viruses but not its variants which translates to an ongoing need of specialize vaccines?
Quote
Who here would've known that the vaccines themselves are responsible for creating all these variants which in turn creates a need for more vaccines? [/size]

BillyB,

You are presenting your opinion as fact, and that is where you err, and basis for my objections. 

Are the quoted statements above your opinion, or are you presenting them as facts?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 22, 2021, 10:23:30 PM
BillyB,

You are presenting your opinion as fact, and that is where you err, and basis for my objections. 

Are the quoted statements above your opinion, or are you presenting them as facts?


Everything we know comes from another man. It's how we put things together that make the men we are. What I've learn are from leaders and pioneers of vaccines. You wonder why I post so many links? I want people to know what I'm saying is not an opinion. Everything I said in my last post I learned from experts in vaccines that have sounded the alarm. They stated facts and because I didn't offer links to the the statements I made in my last post, you call them opinions. I will continue to present links here so people can educate themselves. They don't have to take my word for anything. It only takes me a couple of seconds to cut and paste anyway which saves me time from having to explain their whole interview.


I know some people don't like to hear something they don't agree with but aren't you tired of the continuous everyday commercials of athletes, movie stars, youtube quality doctors and politicians telling you the experimental vaccine is safe and effective and to do your part? Did you notice their commercials don't talk about side effects and risks that are mandatory for all approved medicines and vaccines? We don't want to scare people causing vaccine hesitancy, do we? The COVID vaccines get a pass and you can't sue if it causes harm or death. They lack confidence in the product.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 22, 2021, 11:43:29 PM

Everything we know comes from another man. It's how we put things together that make the men we are. What I've learn are from leaders and pioneers of vaccines. You wonder why I post so many links? I want people to know what I'm saying is not an opinion. Everything I said in my last post I learned from experts in vaccines that have sounded the alarm. They stated facts and because I didn't offer links to the the statements I made in my last post, you call them opinions. I will continue to present links here so people can educate themselves. They don't have to take my word for anything. It only takes me a couple of seconds to cut and paste anyway which saves me time from having to explain their whole interview.

Opinion is opinion, regardless of source.  You cannot take someone else's opinion and reformulate it as fact.


Quote
I know some people don't like to hear something they don't agree with but aren't you tired of the continuous everyday commercials of athletes, movie stars, youtube quality doctors and politicians telling you the experimental vaccine is safe and effective and to do your part? Did you notice their commercials don't talk about side effects and risks that are mandatory for all approved medicines and vaccines? We don't want to scare people causing vaccine hesitancy, do we? The COVID vaccines get a pass and you can't sue if it causes harm or death. They lack confidence in the product.


As opinion, I don't care much. IMO it is exactly those, like yourself, that are harming, more than helping by miraculously turning opinions into facts.

Cases in point:


It'll still be the most deadliest and harmful vaccine in history the government allowed people to take.

There is absolutely no evidence whatsoever this is or might be the truth.  None. You are simply acting as a fortune-teller.  You have proven, though, that you are capable of misusing and misinterpreting VAERS data and this is a fact.  Sure, there is an old adage saying 'Never say never' but even that does not support your statement of fact.

Quote
Without what I posted, who here would've known the vaccines could compromise our immune systems leading to early death?

Fact:  COVID leads to early death, enough so that CDC preliminary data indicates a drop in life expectancy.  There is no evidence whatsoever that vaccines compromise our immune systems. Only your opinion of someone else's opinion is your 'proof'.  Opinions are like multiplication, 1 times 1 is 1 and will remain ever so.

Quote
Who would've known about the fine print in FDA and vaccine manufacture documents that significant benefits and risks are unknown?

What the FDA and manufacturers document say, and don't say, has been fully discussed in previous posts.

Quote
Who here would've known the scientific community and peer review journals pertaining to the virus was influenced by government money and had to support government narrative?

Governments, whether they support studies or not, do not know the results those studies may uncover.  They can have all the opinion they want for free.

Quote
Who here would've known that your own immunity system could handle the virus and it's variants easily unlike vaccines that are specialized to handle specific viruses but not its variants which translates to an ongoing need of specialize vaccines?

Who's immune system?  Those that survive, or the immune system of over a half million Americans that died because of the virus?  Don't you find reports that the majority of current hospitalizations and deaths are among those that have not been vaccinated contrary to your 'statements of fact'

Quote
Who here would've known that the vaccines themselves are responsible for creating all these variants which in turn creates a need for more vaccines?

Name the variants that have been attributed to use of a vaccine.  Thus far, all variants of interest and concern were identified as having predated distribution of vaccines. 
(http://i.postimg.cc/MTXTp7S5/Screen-Shot-2021-07-23-at-08-14-06.png)
http://www.who.int/en/activities/tracking-SARS-CoV-2-variants/

Vaccines continue to be effective against viable variants of interest and concern, some more, some less but still, effective.  Just because something is possible, doesn't make it fact as you wish to portray things.


o·pin·ion
/əˈpinyən/

noun
a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.
"I'm writing to voice my opinion on an issue of great importance"



Your statement in bold above is clearly false.


Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 24, 2021, 09:57:17 PM



159 fully vaccinated people in Illinois dead and 593 hospitalized.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/coronavirus/159-dead-593-hospitalized-in-illinois-breakthrough-covid-cases/2560611/



Fauci surprised at steep decline of efficacy of Pfizer vaccine based on Israeli data

http://t.me/disclosetv/3588


Israel says vaccine now just 39% effective against infection.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-uk-data-offer-mixed-signals-on-vaccines-potency-against-delta-strain/


FDA and NIH employees had first crack at getting vaccinated and only 50-60% chose to do so.

http://t.me/KanekoaTheGreat/1000


CDC says 85% of new cases in America are Delta variant.

http://t.me/realx22report/3072


Vaccinated people in Singapore make up 75% of infections.


http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/vaccinated-people-singapore-three-quarters-071043455.html?guccounter=1


Remember what those experts said, Experimental vaccines can compromise healthy immune systems making people more likely to get infected by any pathogen which in turn can lead to decreased lifespan. Also vaccinated people aren't immune from being infected so the vaccine can learn how to defeat the vaccine by creating more variants. Vaccinated people become breeding grounds to give birth to new variants. It's unthinkable to vaccinate a healthy population during a pandemic. It could be a colossal blunder on humanity leading to depopulation.

Did you guys notice governments and health organizations aren't telling us how many people acquired natural immunity and how successful their immune system is against the variants? They aren't even offering a test to give those people a pass from the vaccine or offering them a vaccine passport although they have natural immunity. They seem to want to force people to take a vaccine even if they've beaten COVID earlier.

175 towns in France and cities around the world had massive protests against vaccine passports. I didn't see anybody wearing a mask or social distancing. People are tired of the government using the pandemic to create bigger government and more control.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 24, 2021, 11:15:52 PM

159 fully vaccinated people in Illinois dead and 593 hospitalized.

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/coronavirus/159-dead-593-hospitalized-in-illinois-breakthrough-covid-cases/2560611/ 

Quote
That figure equates to 2.3% of COVID-19 deaths in the state since Jan. 1, officials said.

Meaning 97.7% of deaths, or 6754 deaths were unvaccinated or partially unvaccinated.

The vaccine is working great in Illinois, doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing.


Quote
Fauci surprised at steep decline of efficacy of Pfizer vaccine based on Israeli data

http://t.me/disclosetv/3588


Israel says vaccine now just 39% effective against infection.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-uk-data-offer-mixed-signals-on-vaccines-potency-against-delta-strain/

Quote
Israel’s research agreed, at least, that the shot was highly effective in avoiding serious illness, at 91.4% effectiveness.


Quote
FDA and NIH employees had first crack at getting vaccinated and only 50-60% chose to do so.

http://t.me/KanekoaTheGreat/1000

Representing 41,000 folks, a good cross section of America.  Par for the course, unfortunately.


Quote
CDC says 85% of new cases in America are Delta variant.

http://t.me/realx22report/3072

Yeah, I believe it!  Similar states in other countries as well.


Quote
Vaccinated people in Singapore make up 75% of infections.

http://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/vaccinated-people-singapore-three-quarters-071043455.html?guccounter=1

Quote
Singapore has already inoculated nearly 75% of its 5.7 million people, the world's second highest after the United Arab Emirates

Quote
There were only seven severe cases requiring oxygen support and six of them were unvaccinated and one was partially vaccinated, the health ministry said.

"There is continuing evidence that vaccination helps to prevent serious disease when one gets infected," the ministry said, adding all of the fully vaccinated and infected people showed no symptoms or mild symptoms.

That is really, really, good news for Singapore!  Shows that getting above 70% vaccinated is an important milestone that saves many lives.

Thanks for the uplifting news BillyB!  All positive reports showing that the vaccine is effective, even for the Delta variant.

Quote
Remember what those experts said, Experimental vaccines can compromise healthy immune systems making people more likely to get infected by any pathogen which in turn can lead to decreased lifespan. Also vaccinated people aren't immune from being infected so the vaccine can learn how to defeat the vaccine by creating more variants. Vaccinated people become breeding grounds to give birth to new variants. It's unthinkable to vaccinate a healthy population during a pandemic. It could be a colossal blunder on humanity leading to depopulation.

Fortunately, there is no factual data that supports your opinion.

Quote
Did you guys notice governments and health organizations aren't telling us how many people acquired natural immunity and how successful their immune system is against the variants? They aren't even offering a test to give those people a pass from the vaccine or offering them a vaccine passport although they have natural immunity. They seem to want to force people to take a vaccine even if they've beaten COVID earlier.

Which information will the Digital Green Certificate include?

Quote
The Digital Green Certificate will contain necessary key information such as name, date of birth, the issuing Member State and a unique identifier of the certificate. In addition:

For a vaccination certificate: vaccine product and manufacturer, number of doses, date of vaccination;
For a test certificate: type of test, date and time of test, test centre and result;
For a recovery certificate: date of positive test result, issuer of certificate, date of issuance, validity date.
http://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/qanda_21_1187

Seems you err, again.

Quote
175 towns in France and cities around the world had massive protests against vaccine passports. I didn't see anybody wearing a mask or social distance. People are tired of the government using the pandemic to create bigger government and more control.

Quote
Some 160,000 people, including far-right activists and members of France's yellow vest movement, protested Saturday across the country against a bill requiring everyone to have a special virus pass to enter restaurants and mandating COVID-19 vaccinations for all health care workers.

Similar protests were held in neighboring Italy.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/france-protest-covid-virus-pass-vaccine/

Massive???  Nah, a mere fraction of the population protested.  Let's go big and say a whopping million protestors.. Not even 1% of the populations of France and Italy protested.

IMO More people in Europe protested for George Floyd than against the vaccine.




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 25, 2021, 12:55:45 AM

"That figure equates to 2.3% of COVID-19 deaths in the state since Jan. 1, officials said."
Meaning 97.7% of deaths, or 6754 deaths were unvaccinated or partially unvaccinated.

The vaccine is working great in Illinois, doing exactly what it is supposed to be doing.


BC's tricky math. Not many people were fully vaccinated Jan 1. Article said 8 fully vaccinated people died last week. Only a handful of people die from COVID everyday in Illinois last week. Some of those people that died with COVID were fully and partially vaccinated. Now do the math. Also, there are 60 times more adverse events than deaths from vaccines. While a vaccinated person may survive COVID, they may get the next variant and die while a person who beat COVID with their own immunity system doesn't have to worry about variants or worry years from now about getting a compromised immune system from an experimental vaccine.



That is really, really, good news for Singapore!  Shows that getting above 70% vaccinated is an important milestone that saves many lives.

Thanks for the uplifting news BillyB!  All positive reports showing that the vaccine is effective, even for the Delta variant.



I'm glad you are thrilled! When people were given the vaccines, they were told they won't get COVID. Maybe 5% of the people will get COVID. 75% of those who are currently infected in Singapore are vaccinated yet you spin it into good news. People were lied to about efficacy rates but hey! Lying helps sell vaccines. The very bad news is the virus is allowed to co-exist with the vaccines in people's bodies eventually creating variants that learn how to defeat vaccines and defeat vaccinated people.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 25, 2021, 01:37:01 AM
BC's tricky math. Not many people were fully vaccinated Jan 1. Article said 8 fully vaccinated people died last week. Only a handful of people die from COVID everyday in Illinois last week. Some of those people that died with COVID were fully and partially vaccinated. Now do the math. Also, there are 60 times more adverse events than deaths from vaccines. While a vaccinated person may survive COVID, they may get the next variant and die while a person who beat COVID with their own immunity system doesn't have to worry about variants or worry years from now about getting a compromised immune system from an experimental vaccine.

Nothing tricky at all about it. If the percentage of fully vaccinated deaths equals 2.3% then the remaining deaths, both partially and unvaccinated equals the rest of deaths.  No secrets here at all.  Your adverse events based on VAERS data has been debunked several times.  You are blatantly misusing that data.


Quote
I'm glad you are thrilled! When people were given the vaccines, they were told they won't get COVID. Maybe 5% of the people will get COVID. 75% of those who are currently infected in Singapore are vaccinated yet you spin it into good news. People were lied to about efficacy rates but hey! Lying helps sell vaccines. The very bad news is the virus is allowed to co-exist with the vaccines in people's bodies eventually creating variants that learn how to defeat vaccines and defeat vaccinated people.

Maybe 5% will get what?  Symptomatic?, more severe cases?, what?  There is absolutely no spin at all if you read the articles you post.  Who told them they won't get COVID? It was known from the outset that vaccines were not 100% and that folks who did get COVID would have much better, but not perfect, chances for fewer hospitalizations and survival.  That is success in any book.  Even condoms used alone are not perfect for preventing STD's or pregnancy.  But guess what... most vaccines are just as or even more effective preventing death than condoms, preventing pregnancy or STD's IMO. 

The only one here twisting and fabricating falsehoods is you.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Trenchcoat on July 25, 2021, 05:24:43 AM
Here in the UK Coronavirus cases have been going down for the last few days. Approximately 31,000 known infections for yesterday figures down from nearly 50,000 odd a few days ago. Whether this will continue who knows, my guess is now that it has it may continue that way although figures for over the weekend are sometimes less in recording so it may take a few more days to be sure. However deaths for the last few days have been up to between 70-90 or so deaths per day so more are dying than in previous weeks. Who these people are we don't really know, the media & government have been pretty quiet on this. My guess is that they have been told to be quiet until they are certain on the data & effectiveness of the vaccine and where we are heading in all of this.

I can see why some people believe this virus was deliberately created and let loose. There are really too many people on this planet mostly in places like India & China. Temperatures have again been hot this Summer and while climates do change there is a possibility that the Environmentalists may be right. I notice in Ukraine the south coast of Ukraine is experiencing temperatures in the 30 degrees for many consecutive days to come. We had a few days of that type of weather but it's largely done with for now. LA of course has been suffering a heat wave in the 40 degrees recently and is still hot in 30 degree temperatures. So on the whole I'm glad I live in the UK and don't have to suffer high heat temperatures for too long. Apparently over the next ten years they reckon the UK may end up experiencing heat up to the 40 degrees. Can't think to imagine how hot it will get elsewhere if that becomes the case. I have a nice stone built house so if temperatures get that high the thick stone walls should help to keep out the worst of it :)
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BillyB on July 25, 2021, 09:50:39 AM

BC, you are thrilled or pretending to be thrilled about the results of COVID vaccines. Even Fauci was alarmed at the amount of infections in Israel considering they have the highest percentage of vaccinated population among major nations.


Let me tell you about a vaccine that gets me thrilled, It was used on another "Virus of the century". The smallpox vaccine has a 95% efficacy rate and it eradicated smallpox in America by 1972. Now if people were told their vaccinated child was still going to get infected by smallpox like COVID vaccines, do you think parents would inject that product into their kids? 75% of the COVID infected people in Singapore are fully vaccinated. That is alarming but you are thrilled with the results.

http://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/vaccine-basics/index.html



I can see why some people believe this virus was deliberately created and let loose.


Here's another conspiracy theory involving China. The Delta variant came out of India and the Lambda variant came out of Chile. Both nations use China's Sinovac vaccine. It's possible that vaccine is most responsible for creating variants that are anti vaccine keeping the world's population sick from COVID. Doctor mentions that in the video. Doctor also says CDC stopped counting COVID infections in May which gives the impression the only infection in America are happening to the unvaccinated. Watch how the mockingbird media plays it. He says half the cases are vaccine failures. Those are sad numbers today and years from now, we may also learn of additional damage the vaccines caused to human bodies.

http://rumble.com/vk8awz-about-half-the-cases-are-vaccine-failures.html



CDC is ending the use of PCR tests because of too many false positives. The test can't tell the difference between SARs-COV-2 and influenza viruses. The creator of PCR tests was banned on Youtube for putting out 'misinformation'. Turns out he knew what he was talking about. Duh. This is the test our medical experts used that helped create initial PANIC last year. Now we are vaccinating healthy people and we got vaccines that are creating more mutant viruses. There will be no end to this. Experts 100 years from now are going to look back at this time and wonder why we got so many idiots in the medical and scientific communities.

http://t.me/WeTheMedia/27332

http://t.me/WeTheMedia/27333
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: BC on July 25, 2021, 11:11:09 AM

BC, you are thrilled or pretending to be thrilled about the results of COVID vaccines. Even Fauci was alarmed at the amount of infections in Israel considering they have the highest percentage of vaccinated population among major nations.


Let me tell you about a vaccine that gets me thrilled, It was used on another "Virus of the century". The smallpox vaccine has a 95% efficacy rate and it eradicated smallpox in America by 1972. Now if people were told their vaccinated child was still going to get infected by smallpox like COVID vaccines, do you think parents would inject that product into their kids? 75% of the COVID infected people in Singapore are fully vaccinated. That is alarming but you are thrilled with the results.

http://www.cdc.gov/smallpox/vaccine-basics/index.html

What's your point?  Another wild goose chase?


Quote
Here's another conspiracy theory involving China. The Delta variant came out of India and the Lambda variant came out of Chile. Both nations use China's Sinovac vaccine. It's possible that vaccine is most responsible for creating variants that are anti vaccine keeping the world's population sick from COVID. Doctor mentions that in the video. Doctor also says CDC stopped counting COVID infections in May which gives the impression the only infection in America are happening to the unvaccinated. Watch how the mockingbird media plays it. He says half the cases are vaccine failures. Those are sad numbers today and years from now, we may also learn of additional damage the vaccines caused to human bodies.

http://rumble.com/vk8awz-about-half-the-cases-are-vaccine-failures.html

Exactly as you state, conspiracy theories that ignore variant timelines previously posted.

Quote
CDC is ending the use of PCR tests because of too many false positives. The test can't tell the difference between SARs-COV-2 and influenza viruses. The creator of PCR tests was banned on Youtube for putting out 'misinformation'. Turns out he knew what he was talking about. Duh. This is the test our medical experts used that helped create initial PANIC last year. Now we are vaccinating healthy people and we got vaccines that are creating more mutant viruses. There will be no end to this. Experts 100 years from now are going to look back at this time and wonder why we got so many idiots in the medical and scientific communities.

http://t.me/WeTheMedia/27332

http://t.me/WeTheMedia/27333

http://healthfeedback.org/claimreview/pcr-tests-on-vaccinated-and-unvaccinated-people-are-evaluated-using-the-same-criteria-the-cdc-didnt-change-criteria-for-detecting-infection-in-vaccinated-people-as-alleged-in-off-guardian-a/

You are again spouting unsubstantiated swill you find by somehow connecting invisible dots.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on December 05, 2021, 10:07:11 PM
I had AstraZeneca (which is all I was entitled to, based on my age).  So, I did get a booster, which was Pfizer.


The new variant apparently is more contagious as it shares aspects with the common cold, but it isn't as severe as previous variants.




Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: John Gaunt on December 06, 2021, 06:27:37 AM
Getting my booster on Thursday, Pfizer.
I do a lot of travelling so whatever makes it easier.
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Faux Pas on December 06, 2021, 07:58:54 AM

First, congratulations on your anniversary!


Second, why do you call the vaccine "poison"?  There is nothing in it that you don't either already have in your body, or consume in foods.

Likely he did because it is poison. Just curious, what foods do you eat that contain Graphene nano particles?
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: GQBlues on December 06, 2021, 08:49:57 AM
If you want to fly--comply. get your vacs at your trusted pharmacy..

So untrue. You don't need to be vaxxed to fly anywhere. As LAMAN said, even if you are vaxxed from the US, you still have to test negative prior to getting on.

Even these rules have holes because a person, vaccinated or not, can in fact be carrying and spreading the virus for up to 2 days BEFORE he/she and everything in between, either tests positive or begin to feel any symptoms.

It's obvious, all the gyrations and misinformation had many folks still ill-informed.

http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/contact-tracing.html#:~:text=An%20infected%20person%20can%20spread,with%20COVID%2D19 (http://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/contact-tracing.html#:~:text=An%20infected%20person%20can%20spread,with%20COVID%2D19).

Quote
An infected person can spread COVID-19 starting 2 days before the person has any symptoms or tests positive. People who have COVID-19 don’t always have obvious symptoms.


http://twitter.com/TheDailyShow/status/1466513437115105281
Title: Re: 2019 - nCoV (novel coronavirus originating in Wuhan, China)
Post by: Boethius on December 06, 2021, 01:02:18 PM
Likely he did because it is poison. Just curious, what foods do you eat that contain Graphene nano particles?


There are no graphene nanoparticles in the vaccine.  There is a lipid nanoparticle, but we have lipids in our body already.