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Author Topic: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?  (Read 94605 times)

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Online 2tallbill

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #225 on: January 21, 2015, 08:24:46 AM »

I think that statement is not an absolute..



Maybe, maybe not.  I think that Russia will always attempt to maintain some influence.  But had we accepted Crimea at first, that may have stopped the sequence.  It appears what we have done has exacerbated the situation. 


Fathertime!

The classical liberal response to a belligerent is to appease, compromise and
offer money, land, virgins, special laws anything the tyrant wants for peace. 

It's never worked and there are countless examples though out history to
prove it.
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FSUW don't do vague
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There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
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Online 2tallbill

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #226 on: January 21, 2015, 08:27:46 AM »
However the move of pressuring the oil price was genius.

Are you suggesting some politician or group of them was responsible for this?
It didn't happen
FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
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Offline Larry1

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #227 on: January 21, 2015, 09:00:30 AM »
The classical liberal response to a belligerent is to appease, compromise and
offer money, land, virgins, special laws anything the tyrant wants for peace. 

It's never worked and there are countless examples though out history to
prove it.

True.  Giving Hitler what he asked for didn't keep him from demanding more. He re-militarized the Rhineland in violation of the Treaty of Versailles.  Britain and France didn't oppose him.  He annexed Austria and Britain and France didn't oppose him. Next he demanded the Sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia. British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain met with him and was assured that if Britain acceded to his annexation of the Sudetenland it would buy peace and be the last territory Hitler would take. But the next year Hitler took the rest of Czechoslovakia. When Britain and France did nothing in response Hitler planned his invasion of Poland.

Offline BillyB

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #228 on: January 21, 2015, 11:34:45 AM »
True.  Giving Hitler what he asked for didn't keep him from demanding more. He re-militarized the Rhineland in violation of the Treaty of Versailles.  Britain and France didn't oppose him.  He annexed Austria and Britain and France didn't oppose him. Next he demanded the Sudetenland region of Czechoslovakia. British Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain met with him and was assured that if Britain acceded to his annexation of the Sudetenland it would buy peace and be the last territory Hitler would take. But the next year Hitler took the rest of Czechoslovakia. When Britain and France did nothing in response Hitler planned his invasion of Poland.


You know the history Larry on how the West reacts to aggression and so does Putin.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline JayH

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #229 on: January 21, 2015, 03:36:56 PM »
The classical liberal response to a belligerent is to appease, compromise and
offer money, land, virgins, special laws anything the tyrant wants for peace. 

It's never worked and there are countless examples though out history to
prove it.
Agreed.

What are your thoughts on how to handle current situation?
I understand how you guys feel about Obama(I dont see him and his admin like a lot of you fwiw)--but--the way I read his current position is to continue a non provocation position on Russia at this time,
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline BillyB

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #230 on: January 21, 2015, 07:27:45 PM »
The classical liberal response to a belligerent is to appease, compromise and
offer money, land, virgins, special laws anything the tyrant wants for peace. 

It's never worked and there are countless examples though out history to
prove it.


Our US envoy to the UN says Putin's peace plan is more like an occupation plan. Putin is hoping the West would agree to it in exchange for him stop his aggression. Putin want to be rewarded for bad behavior.


http://news.yahoo.com/russias-peace-proposal-ukraine-occupation-plan-u-205318652.html
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline AC

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #231 on: January 21, 2015, 07:57:24 PM »

Our US envoy to the UN says Putin's peace plan is more like an occupation plan. Putin is hoping the West would agree to it in exchange for him stop his aggression. Putin want to be rewarded for bad behavior.


http://news.yahoo.com/russias-peace-proposal-ukraine-occupation-plan-u-205318652.html

Hitler promised Chamberlain that the Sudenland was going to be his last land grab, and it wasn't.  Everybody knows that when you reward a greedy person they only get more and more greedy.  Putin is a very greedy man who has enriched himself to the detriment of his own people.  He won't stop thru sanctions or diplomacy.  In fact when I think of Putin I think of a famous movie with Martin Sheen as a deranged President pushing the Nuclear button.  Now just think of Putin pushing that button.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2015, 08:13:50 PM by AC »

Offline fathertime

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #232 on: January 22, 2015, 09:55:54 PM »
Hitler promised Chamberlain that the Sudenland was going to be his last land grab, and it wasn't.  Everybody knows that when you reward a greedy person they only get more and more greedy.  Putin is a very greedy man who has enriched himself to the detriment of his own people.  He won't stop thru sanctions or diplomacy. In fact when I think of Putin I think of a famous movie with Martin Sheen as a deranged President pushing the Nuclear button.  Now just think of Putin pushing that button.



Superb scene in a very good movie...although I think of it more like if LT was president!  ;)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 10:40:12 PM by fathertime »
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline fathertime

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #233 on: January 22, 2015, 09:58:20 PM »
Speaking of which...the Nuclear clock was moved up and currently stands at 11:57.   The closest they have ever been is 11:58.


http://www.csmonitor.com/Science/2015/0122/Doomsday-Clock-now-reads-11-57



Fathertime!
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline AC

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #234 on: January 22, 2015, 10:46:17 PM »

Our US envoy to the UN says Putin's peace plan is more like an occupation plan. Putin is hoping the West would agree to it in exchange for him stop his aggression. Putin want to be rewarded for bad behavior.


http://news.yahoo.com/russias-peace-proposal-ukraine-occupation-plan-u-205318652.html

More double-speak from Putler.  As Mende stated if his troops and weapons are not there, he has no need to concern himself with any peace plan or anything else in Ukraine.

Online 2tallbill

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What is the solution?
« Reply #235 on: January 25, 2015, 11:11:28 PM »
What are your thoughts on how to handle current situation?

It's a terrible mess. Ukraine is in a terrible situation, their economy is in the tank,
they have no money, their credit is nonexistent, their armaments and munitions
are Russian, they have layers and layers of corruption, their infrastructure is out
dated in many ways, I could go on and on. They are in a horrible mess.

If they want to continue governing themselves they need to overhaul everything
and brutally weed out corruption that robs them of productively helping themselves.

They need to look at all their various resources and leverage them to foreign investors
and make themselves attractive to foreign investment. Ukraine has a large and well
educated work force. Any manufacturer would love to build things there. Labor is
cheap, they have decent ports, rivers, rail, many raw materials and excellent farmland.
It's corruption that keeps foreign investment away.

They need help, but they need to show that they are willing to help themselves in order
to get others to spend the money for all the things they vitally need.

Some might say that they have begun addressing some of these things but they need
to get serious because their continued existence as an independent self governing
country will cease to exist if they don't.

FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Just kiss the girl, don't ask her first. Tolerate NO excuses!

Offline AC

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Re: What is the solution?
« Reply #236 on: January 25, 2015, 11:20:03 PM »
It's a terrible mess. Ukraine is in a terrible situation, their economy is in the tank,
they have no money, their credit is nonexistent, their armaments and munitions
are Russian, they have layers and layers of corruption, their infrastructure is out
dated in many ways, I could go on and on. They are in a horrible mess.

If they want to continue governing themselves they need to overhaul everything
and brutally weed out corruption that robs them of productively helping themselves.

They need to look at all their various resources and leverage them to foreign investors
and make themselves attractive to foreign investment. Ukraine has a large and well
educated work force. Any manufacturer would love to build things there. Labor is
cheap, they have decent ports, rivers, rail, many raw materials and excellent farmland.
It's corruption that keeps foreign investment away.

They need help, but they need to show that they are willing to help themselves in order
to get others to spend the money for all the things they vitally need.

Some might say that they have begun addressing some of these things but they need
to get serious because their continued existence as an independent self governing
country will cease to exist if they don't.

Very good post.  Likely the best post of the week.  Ukraine is certainly not only fighting an enemy militarily, they are fighting for their very existence in an economic sense.  It's unknown if they will survive without Russia either taking more portions thru conquest, or by causing them so much financial pain that they say "uncle" and Poroshenko convinces the nation that the only way forward is to accept the trade union with Russia.

If they don't seize this opportunity now to rid themselves of the corruption in order to get the financial aid and foreign investments for the benefit of their economy and future, will they ever?
« Last Edit: January 25, 2015, 11:27:39 PM by AC »

Offline Gator

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Re: What is the solution?
« Reply #237 on: January 26, 2015, 08:48:51 AM »

Some might say that they have begun addressing some of these things but they need
to get serious because their continued existence as an independent self governing
country will cease to exist if they don't.

Some RWD members point to Russia's declining economy and question whether Russia can continue to fund the separatists  in Ukraine without reducing public services in Russia.  The  Ukrainian economy is far, far worse.

In conflicts such as this, history shows that corrupt war lords and their gangs tend to prevail, at great cost to the innocent citizens.  I imagine corruption is rampant on the separatist side, although I have read no evidence other than some anecdotal reports.  I wonder how much of the Ukrainian military is patriotic and how much is corrupt.   Corruption weakens patriotism - I observed such with ARVN in Vietnam. 

Offline JayH

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #238 on: January 26, 2015, 03:16:33 PM »
Gator-  Russia cannot afford this war and the consequences-FULL STOP. However--Putin will stop paying pensions in Russia before he stops any war.

Ukraine's economy--sure it has problems and that is why they were so desperate to rid themselves of the Russians drowning them -- and want to look west to create a future.

Also a fact-- because of Russia attempt to invade and control--Ukraine will get real aid from the west to help rebuild the country-- and that will give Ukraine a  cornerstone to build the country.

Please stop looking backwards about corruption--many steps have been taken and are being taken to address the historic issues.

The military--when Russia invaded Crimea there was a new government a few days old-- and the military( & bureaucracy) were hopelessly compromised with Russian sympathisers-- as those in positions of authority tried to punt on where their personal bread would be best buttered-- it took time to sort out the patriots from the pretenders( in fact it is still going on. In the military it took time but gradually people that wanted a Ukraine-and believed in Ukraine have come in to control of Ukraine's future-these people are true patriots.
Since Maidan( and of course before) many-the polls show huge majority so we can say most-now believe in a free and in dependant Ukraine and they have shown and are showing they are prepared to fight for it.
That is today-- not yesterdays news or attitudes.
The free & democratic world should be helping Ukraine in every way possible to defend themselves.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline Steamer

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #239 on: January 26, 2015, 03:46:51 PM »
Ohferchrissake,
That sounds like one of those commercials with the big eyed puppy dogs while playing sad music and begging for money! You were more true to form when you were salivating over pushing Babushka in front of a bus or pouring acid into Russian eyes. What happened? Did you get religion?
Life ain't nothing but a poker game
And no two hands are quite the same
But I never saw a winner that didn't bet

Offline jone

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #240 on: January 26, 2015, 03:58:45 PM »
Whoa, Steamer ......

Most Russian Babushki that I am familiar with would have no problem standing their ground.  It would be the bus that would be run over if a Babushka would be pushed in front of it.


Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Online Faux Pas

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #241 on: January 26, 2015, 04:12:27 PM »
Gator-  Russia cannot afford this war and the consequences-FULL STOP. However--Putin will stop paying pensions in Russia before he stops any war.

Ukraine's economy--sure it has problems and that is why they were so desperate to rid themselves of the Russians drowning them -- and want to look west to create a future.

Also a fact-- because of Russia attempt to invade and control--Ukraine will get real aid from the west to help rebuild the country-- and that will give Ukraine a  cornerstone to build the country.

Please stop looking backwards about corruption--many steps have been taken and are being taken to address the historic issues.

The military--when Russia invaded Crimea there was a new government a few days old-- and the military( & bureaucracy) were hopelessly compromised with Russian sympathisers-- as those in positions of authority tried to punt on where their personal bread would be best buttered-- it took time to sort out the patriots from the pretenders( in fact it is still going on. In the military it took time but gradually people that wanted a Ukraine-and believed in Ukraine have come in to control of Ukraine's future-these people are true patriots.
Since Maidan( and of course before) many-the polls show huge majority so we can say most-now believe in a free and in dependant Ukraine and they have shown and are showing they are prepared to fight for it.
That is today-- not yesterdays news or attitudes.
The free & democratic world should be helping Ukraine in every way possible to defend themselves.

Wow! So most or all the corruption in Ukraine has been ripped right from the very fabric of the country where it was so prevalent? Outstanding!

Offline calmissile

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #242 on: January 26, 2015, 04:25:51 PM »
Wow! So most or all the corruption in Ukraine has been ripped right from the very fabric of the country where it was so prevalent? Outstanding!

It is improving as fast as they can.  The lustration was a good start.  You expect it all to be done overnight?  Let's give them an opportunity and then evaluate how well they have done.   How well has Russia done lately in eliminating corruption?
Doug (Calmissile)

Offline JayH

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #243 on: January 26, 2015, 04:37:03 PM »
Wow! So most or all the corruption in Ukraine has been ripped right from the very fabric of the country where it was so prevalent? Outstanding!
:deadhorse: :cluebat:

Your constant negative trailing my comments about anything positive in Ukr is a pia.  Like so many of yesterdays people on forums you constantly hark back to how it was--without bothering to either know--or admit that progress is being made .
Fact is--giant steps have been taken--no one said the problem is solved.
Comparisons with Russian kleptocracy is a measure of how far it has come-Russia getting worse--Ukraine making concerted attempt to set new standards.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #244 on: January 26, 2015, 04:38:19 PM »
It is improving as fast as they can.  The lustration was a good start.  You expect it all to be done overnight?  Let's give them an opportunity and then evaluate how well they have done.   How well has Russia done lately in eliminating corruption?

It's systemic and it's to the core. I don't expect it to be done overnight or even in the next 10 years but I'm calling bullshit on Jay's proclamations. Is Russia eliminating corruption? What has Russia's corruption got to do with stopping it in Ukraine?

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #245 on: January 26, 2015, 04:40:44 PM »
:deadhorse: :cluebat:

Your constant negative trailing my comments about anything positive in Ukr is a pia.  Like so many of yesterdays people on forums you constantly hark back to how it was--without bothering to either know--or admit that progress is being made .
Fact is--giant steps have been taken--no one said the problem is solved.
Comparisons with Russian kleptocracy is a measure of how far it has come-Russia getting worse--Ukraine making concerted attempt to set new standards.

Ah well, sit down, have a seat and get over yourself. When you make stupid claims and wild accusations expect to be called out on them. I suppose the day will never come where you see things as they are rather than the way you want them to be.

Also, back to reality for you just a moment. I do not constantly trail your comments with negativity. I don't find you important or interesting enough to do so. I just call them like I see them, when I see them. Deal with it. Try as you may and you can cheer lead Ukraine all you wish. Help you effing self but, you are not now nor have your ever been the shining beacon or voice of Ukraine. Get a grip dude
« Last Edit: January 26, 2015, 04:44:22 PM by Faux Pas »

Offline JayH

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #246 on: January 26, 2015, 04:58:51 PM »
Ah well, sit down, have a seat and get over yourself. When you make stupid claims and wild accusations expect to be called out on them. I suppose the day will never come where you see things as they are rather than the way you want them to be.

Also, back to reality for you just a moment. I do not constantly trail your comments with negativity. I don't find you important or interesting enough to do so. I just call them like I see them, when I see them. Deal with it. Try as you may and you can cheer lead Ukraine all you wish. Help you effing self but, you are not now nor have your ever been the shining beacon or voice of Ukraine. Get a grip dude

You never know when to shut up-- the evidence is above.
It is your stupid out of date comments that I take exception to-- you and the Kremlin have something in common--keep repeating innacuracies & lies and some are silly enough to believe it. :cluebat:
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline onlyFSU4me

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #247 on: January 26, 2015, 05:21:06 PM »
Wow! So most or all the corruption in Ukraine has been ripped right from the very fabric of the country where it was so prevalent? Outstanding!


 They are working on it, and getting help to do it:


http://www.international.gc.ca/international/support-ukraine-soutien.aspx?lang=eng




 
If you read that link you will see that Canada and other countries are not just giving immediate economic help to Ukraine, but they are also helping to clean up the corruption in govt, helping organize social organizations and organizing future developments for Ukraine. Note how they seized assets of Yanukovich and his regime and their families. And that they imposed sanctions against other unnamed Ukrainians as well, not just Russian companies or individuals.


 I agree it would be a stretch to believe that the new govt would be able to eliminate all the corruption in Ukraine by themselves, but there are many countries monitoring the situation with the new govt and helping them to do this. Believe it or not it might actually be happening, Canada and other countries wouldn't just be throwing money blindly at Ukraine without knowing that it wasn't just going to end up in a few govt official's pockets.

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #248 on: January 26, 2015, 05:33:27 PM »
You never know when to shut up-- the evidence is above.
It is your stupid out of date comments that I take exception to-- you and the Kremlin have something in common--keep repeating innacuracies & lies and some are silly enough to believe it. :cluebat:

Yeah I was wondering how long it would take a pea brain to attempt to demonize me for disagreeing with him. Exactly 2 posts. So now I am in cahoots with the Kremlin because I point you out for the idiocy you spew. More evidence that when anyone calls you a moron they underestimated you  ;D

Offline fathertime

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Re: Is it actually Russia that is imposing more and more costs?
« Reply #249 on: January 26, 2015, 05:39:56 PM »
You never know when to shut up-- the evidence is above.
It is your stupid out of date comments that I take exception to-- you and the Kremlin have something in common--keep repeating innacuracies & lies and some are silly enough to believe it. :cluebat:


You have already grumbled last week that ANYTHING said has to be positive as it pertains to Ukraine, or it is an attack on them, or words to that affect...so there goes your dwindling credibility.     People are entitled to give their viewpoints, regardless of your ridiculous attempts to demonize them....when instead you had the opportunity to explain yourself...because very few are going to take your cheerleading at face value.   




He is right, you sure don't speak for anybody but yourself.


Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

 

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Re: American With Russian Fiancé - Scheduled For K1 Interview In Warsaw, BUT.... by krimster2
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Re: American With Russian Fiancé - Scheduled For K1 Interview In Warsaw, BUT.... by Infoman
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Plumber earnings by ML
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Re: American With Russian Fiancé - Scheduled For K1 Interview In Warsaw, BUT.... by krimster2
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American With Russian Fiancé - Scheduled For K1 Interview In Warsaw, BUT.... by 2tallbill
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