The End

[bjorncode12]

So after having a week with Elena in my house, with my sons, things were in a very dismal state.  I wrote her a couple of emails trying to explain my position and she responded with a very  veryt long and extremely emotional e-mail.  Her biggest concern was:


"The attitude of your children towards me and the joint living with them"

I should digress a bit here and state that before she came to visit me I had decided I was going to get on with my own life and I was going to live the way I saw fit.  So I pretty much decided I was not going to live in San Francisco where she wanted to live, and I allowed one of my sons who had just graduated from college to live with me for the year.  He had a decent job but could not afford the rent in the bay area where I live.  I live in a big house.

And she ended with:

"I left California with the feeling that you betrayed me.  Struck out.  Like the last from your priority list...you let me go away...

But I want you to know that I really appreciate everything you have done for me.  Thank you for your help to me and my family!  And was the moments of absolute happiness and love, when were only you and me.  Thank you for that.

I really want you be happy too.  You deserved it.  And only you will decide - to let happiness into your life or put the block...

I'm very tired of stresses.  If you are ready for certain actions from your side - let me know.  The situation that is happening now, can't continue any more.  This pain is destroying me.  I want to close my eyes, fall asleep, and when to wake up, to understand that it was a dream.  Cuddle up to you and feel your warmth....

But if you let me go from your life, please do not worry me - don't write or call me any more.  It's too painful to continue in this way.  I will need to find the strength to build my further life...

I love you, my genius....

Elena"

So after this we did not communicate much, sent a few very heated texts.  i was distraught and thinking about her all the time.

Then, one day she calls me and says,   "come to me now" .   And she meant it. 

The background here is that I had been thinking of her every day, and I knew that I loved her very deeply.
I talked to my mother because she is the only person I can really talk to about things like this.  I have a lot of great friends who are men, but you know how men are, they just do not relate in the same way.  My mother told me I must go.

So this was going through my mind for weeks and so one day I just decided that I was going to see her.  To be honest it was almost like flipping a coin.  I was completely confused.   But I rationalized it by telling myself that it could not end like this.  In my mind, I felt responsible for not communicating my needs and interests clearly and having a grownup conversation with her.  After all, she wanted me to be a man, and there was definitely something to this.

So I flew to Riga and met her.  We spent a very intense weekend together and we both cried a lot and had hot sex and it was not easy but we were together again.

We started talking again daily and then one day she proposed that we go skiing together.  I love to ski, and I wanted to teach her to ski and I signed on for this immediately.  We made a plan for her to come to California and we would go skiing for a week. 

Then she said she wanted to go to Aruba for our anniversary.  I kind of liked that idea, and I said great, let's do it.  So I started to make the reservation and it became clear that she wanted to stay at one of the five star hotels.  I protested a bit but she was determined and she called the hotel and got a better rate.

At this point I was starting to feel like I had been walked over a bit and I checked the bank card I had given to Elena.   She had withdrawn 2X over what I told her I was good for in the last month.  This card was always an issue.  She complained there was never money in the account and she stated that I was always manipulating her by not making a deposit, something that did not seem correct to me, but there may have been something to it.

So I called her on this and she became very defensive and angry and told me that her family needed more than the $400 a month I had been giving her.

The next night I woke up at 200 AM in a sweat unable to sleep.  I realized I could not do this.   So I sent her a text telling her I needed to take a break.

That was on November 1st.  I have never heard from her since.

To be honest, I deeply regret what I did.  I wish I had been man enough to address this with her forthrightly and directly and tell her that she was being greedy but I did not.  So I will live with this, and i will take this lesson and I will try to learn from it.

What I do find fascinating is that I did kind of know this all along and with some women i can do behave this way, but for some reason with her, I could not.  I don't completely understand it.

Now I believe that she now has a new man in her life.   

It is a rebound relationship.  Before me she had ever had a serious relationship since her marriage ended 16 year ago, and she had not dated for 4 years.

It is what it is and in a way I am glad that she was pushed to a rebound relationship.  There was so much more depth to what she and I shared.

In case you are wondering I am moving on with my life.  My current relationship is just as interesting but it is not with a Russian woman so it would have to be another forum.

Thanks for listening.

[ML]

Interesting story.  Thanks for sharing.  I feel some of your pain.  Money issues are a bitch.
Time does heal.

[Trenchcoat]

Bjorn, your lady sounds quite a lot like the last girl I was with, basically manipulative and out for what she can get. However, likewise I think in both are cases the women were not necessarily out to dupe us from the get go nor felt nothing for us. I think that they became ruled by their emotions and bad behaviours that surfaced. Its quite possibly that handled differently by sticking to a more down to earth lifestyle these women might not turn into the relationship issue they become. I think it sounds way to far gone in your instance to recover this relationship, as I think it would entail her accepting giving up five star hotels, money allowance, etc which I think she would now refuse to accept point blank in any offer to restart the relationship. Moving on sounds a good idea.

[BillyB]

At this point I was starting to feel like I had been walked over a bit and I checked the bank card I had given to Elena.   She had withdrawn 2X over what I told her I was good for in the last month.  This card was always an issue.  She complained there was never money in the account and she stated that I was always manipulating her by not making a deposit, something that did not seem correct to me, but there may have been something to it.

So I called her on this and she became very defensive and angry and told me that her family needed more than the $400 a month I had been giving her.

You told her what you can offer her in the relationship. She accepted the relationship, what you offered and took the bank card. She's old enough to understand numbers and without your blessing, withdrew more than you told her you can give. It's best you learn she will deceive you sooner than later.


There have been guys who came to this forum and said they had hot sex with their women all the way up to the honeymoon. It was downhill after that.

[msmob]

Sorry, ( and I have done some DAFTer things re a break up.)..but posting her private letter to you..... TACKY...

Why do you feel the need to post this detail?

You couldn't agree re money ( budgets)...it's common in many marriages...not just one's with FSU women.

Many FSU wives are wise and careful with the family budget.

[Trenchcoat]

Sorry, ( and I have done some DAFTer things re a break up.)..but posting her private letter to you..... TACKY...

Why do you feel the need to post this detail?

You couldn't agree re money ( budgets)...it's common in many marriages...not just one's with FSU women.

Many FSU wives are wise and careful with the family budget.

I disagree Mobers, the letter helps give forum members the best possible picture of the personality OP is dealing with here, without it its is just his description of her and he may see here a different way to the rest of us, blinded by her, etc, or merely not a good description.

To me from the letter it sounds like she is jerking him around and trying to play on his feelings. She accuses him of betraying her, then thanks him for what he has done, then tells him she was happy with him but only just them together, then lays the ultimatum on him on terms for getting back together, then finishes by complimenting him, lol.

To me this letter looks like a letter she put a lot of thought in crafting with the intention of gaining sole dominance over the relationship. She is both saying how wonderful they were together and wanting to get back with him, BUT only under her terms the upshot being with her fully in control. I think she is trying to be very manipulative and out to grasp far more than she should, she wants it all, she wants to be in control so OP is just her pawn to do her bidding. Personally I think OP should run and not touch her again even with a very long barge pole. Her personality such as it is will always be a cause for trouble, pain & upset.

[Sting23]

Sorry, ( and I have done some DAFTer things re a break up.)..but posting her private letter to you..... TACKY...

Why do you feel the need to post this detail?

You ain't the moral police dude. your track record leaves much to be desired.  No one except him knows who his lady is.  Why are you so concerned now.

[jone]

Just out of a curious notion, what leads you to believe she has another man in her life? 

[Boethius]

c поганой овцы хоть шерсти клок

She had already made up her mind by the time of the trip.

She also should have thought about why the son didn't respect her.

[msmob]

You ain't the moral police dude. your track record leaves much to be desired.  No one except him knows who his lady is.  Why are you so concerned now.

My 'track record' ?

Trolling again.?

I was posting from experience and being wiser after stupidity.

There are certain folks who find pleasure in trying to research folks off board lives. Even trying to find the other partner and inviting them to comment. ..

[jone]

After reading the comments in the letter again, I feel compelled to comment on the state of mind of the RW.  In the US, I have witnessed, again and again, women who are easily distracted in dating a man and vice versa.  We are distracted by work, by families, by social influences and by obligations of our own making.   To succeed, especially if a marriage is not your first, it is important to put all of that aside.  All of those things must be secondary to the commitment you make to your spouse. 

An FSU woman, by nature, has to leave everything she has known to come to the US.  Perhaps she is bringing a child with her, perhaps not.  But, nonetheless, she is committed to this new lifestyle and the only thing supporting her is her relationship with 'her man'.   She has no other tether point.

To not honor that commitment, through distraction or inaction, or even a lack of understanding on the part of the man is reason for failure of the relationship.   

I see this letter, from the woman, as a plea to be 'her man'.  And, absent that, she cannot go on.  I have read many perspectives from many men on this forum in my time here.  Very few of them (I can count on one hand) demonstrate this level of commitment demanded by an FSU woman at the time she comes to her new country.   And I feel that this commitment, above all else, is the only true way that a marriage succeeds.

[wallm]

Here is her state of mind..
Man pays to help her family, that too before marriage. Man agrees to let her daughter live in his home but can't let his sons live in his home or even stay when visiting. Man takes her on luxury trips. Man must put her up in 5-star hotel. She must live in a filthy expensive city.

I must be missing all the good points about her character which make her a great catch.

[Hammer2722]

Here is her state of mind..
Man pays to help her family, that too before marriage. Man agrees to let her daughter live in his home but can't let his sons live in his home or even stay when visiting. Man takes her on luxury trips. Man must put her up in 5-star hotel. She must live in a filthy expensive city.

I must be missing all the good points about her character which make her a great catch.

 

[Trenchcoat]

What are the odds that were he to fish again in the FSU for a woman he might find one that is less demanding on the material front and less ridged with how she sees the relationship developing?

[krimster2]

bjorncode12,
please don’t take my comments in a negative way, but you should understand that Russian women are not gentle creatures, they are savage and beautiful ...

if you can handle it...

however, if you have any emotional vulnerability, a Russian woman will spot it immediately and if she needs to will hammer it to pieces until it(you!) breaks...

In Russia, no one relies on the kindness of strangers (ever!)
and there’s a reason for that...

m'man! you need to "wise-up", I infer you were once married for a long time and are new to the dating scene
so I'd take things a little slower, calm down, and START THINKING ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE DOING instead of wallowing in self pity(there, there, you'll be OK!) .....

it's all about balance, make sure what you give matches what you receive, do that, and all will be in harmony

bottom line: driving a relationship is a lot like driving a car, you have to learn how to steer it in the direction you want it to go, and you have to learn how to make it go faster, and make it slow down, and sometimes, you may have to put it in park and turn off the ignition.

but you are the driver, so act like it!!!
 

[ML]

Krimster, what have your comments got to do with helping this man ?

He has told us his story, he knows the mistakes he made, and now he has moved on to a non-Russian woman.

[krimster2]

I'm a "big picture" kinda guy ML, you can choose to focus on the details if that works better for you,
but I think this brother needs WAY more help than just advising him which wine to select for dinner...

[Sting23]

Here is her state of mind..
Man pays to help her family, that too before marriage. Man agrees to let her daughter live in his home but can't let his sons live in his home or even stay when visiting. Man takes her on luxury trips. Man must put her up in 5-star hotel. She must live in a filthy expensive city.

I must be missing all the good points about her character which make her a great catch.

Yeah it seems like she used him more for money, making all these demands.  He probably was smitten a bit too much with her to acquiesce to these things.
She didn't seem very grateful for what he already did for her.

[krimster2]

Sting23,

a russian woman controlling, using and dumping a western man is not new, this has happened to several guys on this board.  but when a gold digger comes HERE to hunt, that’s a new development... 

everyone sees the part of this they want to see, there are certainly aspects of Elena that created this problem, but the OP also I believe, made the problem worse by his classic co-dependent behavior which he has not acknowledged, in actuality, I don’t think he’s “moved on”, but still stuck in his co-dependency


 

[bjorncode12]

A few comments, and then I am through. 

To this question of was Elena in love with me and whether or not people in love see negative personality aspects of their love objects I must state categorically that love is not that simple.  There is no question that love is far more complicated than we imagine.

I think the best way to make this point is that I will never forget the day I went back to the airport after my first weekend with Elena in Riga.  Elena accompanied me in the taxi and she slumped onto my lap, and held my hand and she was exhausted and limp and it was because of her childhood and the trauma she had recently witnessed and the extreme difficulty of her life beginnning at the age of 16 and she loved me in a way that I have never been loved before and never will be loved again and I know this for sure.

[bjorncode12]

So I would like to thank all of you for your comments.  No need to argue about who is right and who is wrong, you were all helpful to me.

I have learned a lot about myself and about Elena and most importantly about Russian women. 

Have more to say about that in a bit. 

[Sting23]

Sting23,

a russian woman controlling, using and dumping a western man is not new, this has happened to several guys on this board.  but when a gold digger comes HERE to hunt, that’s a new development... 

everyone sees the part of this they want to see, there are certainly aspects of Elena that created this problem, but the OP also I believe, made the problem worse by his classic co-dependent behavior which he has not acknowledged, in actuality, I don’t think he’s “moved on”, but still stuck in his co-dependency

krimster, I'm not following you.  What do you mean come HERE to hunt, are you referring to the lady going to America to specifically find a guy?  OP did say her best friend is married to his brother-in law.  Maybe she was just visiting them. 

Well only the OP and his lady knows the dynamics of the relationship.

bjorn if you feel so strongly maybe you need to contact her again.  Just make it clear there will be no financial support, then see how she reacts.

When I was in Moscow most girls I dated weren't about the money.  They had jobs and could support themselves.  If they see you are generous with your money and not cheap with them, they will reciprocate.  Some have even paid for my dinners on dates.  But I'm in a younger age range and the people I meet would be probably different from what the typical guy here encounters.

[Trenchcoat]

bjorn if you feel so strongly maybe you need to contact her again.  Just make it clear there will be no financial support, then see how she reacts.

I very much doubt she will be accepting at all, she will hold onto her beliefs about wanting/needing this or that and won't be argued out of it.

I say this because the last girl I was with was sounds very much the same. I mishandled the situation by paying for stuff when I should have said no or quit the short-lived relationship even sooner. I ask myself the question was my last girl a scammer? the answer I believe is not really but I think she possessed so bad character traits (basically manipulative & materialistic) which to some might have difficulty as seeing her as separate from a scammer. I unwittingly fed those bad character traits and it became a problem in our relationship. I think likewise Bjorn may have a woman who is not necessarily a gold-digger or scammer but exhibits bad ways akin to gold-diggers/scammers without actually necessarily being one. Again he messed up big time by paying for a lot of stuff and I think it has gone far past the point of being able to recover the relationship. Its now ingrained in her that he's good for this or that whatever he says and can be taken for it - is stupid enough to pay for it (no offence intended Bjorn just the way she would view it I think).

I think it is probably true that Bjorn wants back with Elena, if I'm honest there's times I want back with the last girl I was with (even with all the issues, lol). Unlike scammers/gold-diggers there were real feelings of love I believe that were shared. There was also distrust I believe on both sides and that did a lot of damage to those feelings of love, particularly as time went on. I think I know though that if I got back with her the relationship would unlikely improve - she will always see me as stupid enough to pay for all that she desires. Likewise I don't think Bjorn's relationship with Elena would improve at all, she would still carry on in the same way, she had it the way she likes so will carry on like that. Those type of women just don't realise when enough is enough, when they are destroying their relationship with those they probably love/have feelings for and that their actions are causing the guy to question whether she does love him at all - or as 2tallbill says the wheels are turning but the relationship is going nowhere because the relationship will never improve/be a relationship to be able to live with, but time is still passing by.

Basically, these women just become to unwieldy to be in a relationship with so I think Bjorn is really going to have to move on from Elena and never return for his own good.

[bjorncode12]

So why am I even on this website?  Well, it is because Elena affected me more deeply than I have ever been affected in my life by a woman, except, of course, my mother.  I am 59 years old, well in control of all other aspects of my life, financially successful, great kids, on my game in all respects, no problem finding women to date and who desire me.  But I was turned upside down by the 18 months from when we met until we broke up and it continues to turn me upside down 5 months later.  Beware, this can happen to you too.  I never imagined this happening.

I do think it is not completely black and white.   It has to do with who Elena is as an individual but it also has to do with her Russian ness.  The Russian ness part of the story is interesting to you, and so I will continue for a bit.

I have some conclusions about Elena's Russian ness, even though indeed Elena herself told me at the beginning of our relationship that we were just people and we needed to respect that and our culture was secondary.  That was not exactly true.  Like most things in life the truth gets blurry whe you go deep but I will stick with the Russian ness part because that is what you want to hear and it is important to understand it.

The Russian parts of this are that Elena was the most loyal woman I have ever met.  Every night I would call her and she would be waiting for my call.  She cared deeply about my health and well being, she was very concerned, almost paranoid that something untoward would happen to me. 

She believed in a man's role as a man, and the man should take the lead and be assertive and confident.  She wanted to be protected and nurtured and family was extremely important to her.  I liked being a man and this attracted me to her.

She was clearly going to stand by me forever.   She believed deeply in romantic love and honored her feelings and emotions over her rational side.  She wanted to be  loved and be possessed in a sense.  I think that this is more common for women and it is especially true for Russian women.

She was very very beautiful.

The problems came from a different angle.  I think Krimster was right when he observed that a russian woman is highly protective of her family, not such much the family of her new foreign spouse, at least not my sons.  Elena saw my sons as a threat.

Elena grew up under very difficult circumstances, barely surviving perestroika, and like many russian people is scrappy and has had to do what it takes to survive.  This translated into a kind of rigidity and lack of understanding of my background and culture, which is a bit privileged, entrepreneurial and laid back, being from California.  She didn't understand me.

I did have my share of difficulties in life and I had an unhappy childhood in many ways but this mapped onto Elena in the sense that I was deeply attached to her as a rescue fantasy.

Elena was reasonably talented and capable and she had leveraged this into a middle class life through her own efforts.  She was making maybe $2000 a month.  This was close enough to people who made a lot of money that she was aware of affluence and designer clothes and high end resorts.  People tend to be highly aware of those that are close to them in social status and resentful and envious.  Elena was definitely effected by this, she wanted the very best maybe because it was just out of her reach.

Elena was not educated, so she had no idea of the the life of the mind.  She was attracted to my intellectual bent, but in the end she thought I was always thinking to much.  This was not good because it was connected to the last problem and in a way the most serious.

Krimster said something that really resonated with me.  Russians do not show emotion, except for anger.  Elena was an emotional creature and she kept it all in, except when she was unhappy, and then she would get angry and this was not pleasant.  Later on I did realize that this was an expression of how much she cared for me, but I was tired of dealing with anger, I had dealt with too much of that in my first marriage.  I had a dream that we could sit and spill our guts and talk rationally and it would all come together (and I have since discovered that there are women who actually do this).

Someone else pointed out that foreign women are extremely vulnerable when they give up their life to live with a man in a foreign country, and there is no question that this is true.  The consequence of this is that it makes them more emotional and they can be less likely to be understanding and easy going.  Their life is at stake and they react with heightened sensitivity.

I had a suspicion that if I could just man up, be clear and strong with her that I could put her in her place and deal with this, and in fact I am certain this was what she wanted.  But I also realized that I would probably be doing this for this rest of my life, and that just seemed exhausting.

So, in conclusion, those of you that still are interested in a Russian woman I say more power to you.  You will never meet another woman with such intense passion and love.  But you will have to have both feet planted firmly on the ground and you will have to be strong because it will be a rocky ride at times.

Like most things in life, the story is not simple.  Some of you want to paint Elena as greedy and manipulative but I am sure she didn't see herself this way, and I didn't either.  She was simply trying to put together a future with more potential and I understood this. 

We delude ourselves sometimes when we ascribe evil intent to others.  They are merely acting on their instincts and if they are not self aware, they do not fully comprehend their actions, and like all of us, they fancy themselves as having beneficent intent.

As for myself, I am still trying to figure out how this could have happened to me.  I do have an explanation, grounded in psychology, science, and I think it is correct from that perspective, but in some ways I cannot get past the Russian idea of being emotional creatures.  This we all are.

[bjorncode12]

I didnt mean to imply that we always delude ourselves when we ascribe evil intent to others. There is evil in the world.