The Russian/Syrian connection thread

[Boethius]

My good friend and old room mate was the valedictorian of Obama's high school class
in Hawaii doesn't think Obama is nearly as bright as you do.

He was smart enough to be editor of the Harvard Law Review.  You have to have top grades to run for editor.  Numerous professors have spoken about how impressed they were by him, even in his first year of law school.  Of course, he was older than the average law student, and had a lot more life experience.


In Dreams From My Father, Obama described himself as an underachieving dopehead when he was in high school.  His mother used to admonish him, as he was so not a serious student, and she worried about his future. As an aside, do you know his mother started micro loans in Indonesia?  Two decades later, a man would win a Nobel prize for stealing her idea.


I suppose being on food stamps while attending an elite private school, and being the only black student there would have been difficult on a teen.  Obama also stated when he started college in LA, he still was not a good student.  It was only when he transferred to Columbia that he became serious about his studies.  He had a Pakistani roommate, which is why he visited Pakistan when he graduated (on the same trip he went to Kenya).  He graduated, got a Wall Street job, and hated it.  Thereafter, he moved to Chicago.


It's a good thing we aren't all hamstrung by who we were in high school.

[Boethius]

I was surprised it took Russia this long to make their move...they could have hopped in a few years ago...and probably should have.  It is hilarious listening to the news on the radio today, and hearing the 'surprised' voices cry out that Russia is bombing the moderate rebels and protecting Assad, of course they are protecting Assad, and why would that be a surprise?

Yes, the Russians don't care that Assad is a ruthless killer who tortures opponents, and, before the civil war began, sent his army into Sunni villages to kill villagers one by one.  They don't care that he drops barrel bombs on civilians, and they will be very indiscriminate in their bombing campaigns.  This, ultimately, will not end well for Russia.


I have a friend from Lebanon, a Christian.  Two years ago, he was back in the summer, and at that time, Lebanon was already overflowing with refugees.  His words to me were "Assad is crazy.  He is a dictator with the blood of tens of thousands on his hands, and this will get much worse."

[fathertime]

Yes, the Russians don't care that Assad is a ruthless killer who tortures opponents, and, before the civil war began, sent his army into Sunni villages to kill villagers one by one.  They don't care that he drops barrel bombs on civilians, and they will be very indiscriminate in their bombing campaigns.  This, ultimately, will not end well for Russia.


I have a friend from Lebanon, a Christian.  Two years ago, he was back in the summer, and at that time, Lebanon was already overflowing with refugees.  His words to me were "Assad is crazy.  He is a dictator with the blood of tens of thousands on his hands, and this will get much worse."

Interesting how different the opinions are....I have a good friend who lives nearby, he is an Armenian Christian from Syria....he was over at our house about 2 weeks ago, and was foaming at the mouth (Almost literally) when he discussed what the USA has been doing in Syria against Assad.   Of course he had my sympathetic ear, but no foaming at the mouth from me. 


Fathertime!   

[Belvis]

Yes, the Russians don't care that Assad is a ruthless killer who tortures opponents, and, before the civil war began, sent his army into Sunni villages to kill villagers one by one.

That's right, Bashar al-Assad is a ruthless killer who tortures opponents. So do any of the arabian and not only arabian rulers in this part of world, though you like to notice only those who is labeled as Anti-American. Main question is what happens when a ruthless ruler will be dethroned. Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan give  illustrative examples of saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

[2tallbill]

He was smart enough to be editor of the Harvard Law Review.  You have to have top grades to run for editor.  Numerous professors have spoken about how impressed they were by him, even in his first year of law school.  Of course, he was older than the average law student, and had a lot more life experience.

He admittedly got the position on the law review because he was black and was a mediocre
writer.

I suppose being on food stamps while attending an elite private school, and being the only black student there would have been difficult on a teen.  Obama also stated when he started college in LA, he still was not a good student.  It was only when he transferred to Columbia that he became serious about his studies.  He had a Pakistani roommate, which is why he visited Pakistan when he graduated (on the same trip he went to Kenya).  He graduated, got a Wall Street job, and hated it.  Thereafter, he moved to Chicago.

It's a good thing we aren't all hamstrung by who we were in high school.

It was an elite school in Hawaii, most of the kids weren't white. Asians dominate the
elite schools in Hawaii. Ronald Loui a computer scientists was called Frederick in Obama's
book and Mark Tuinei was Hawaiian who became an NFL star with the Dallas Cowboys.





His grandparents who he lived with weren't poor. Obama wasn't Cinderfella

[Muzh]

You are missing the point, a very important point.  We did NOT involve ourselves in any significant manner.  That is why Russia moved in.  We were just talk and diplomacy. 

When was the last time Russia had any significant involvement in the Middle East?  1972. 

That has now changed with America's withdrawal.  Thus, after 40 years of having little influence, Obama has allowed Russia and their friend Iran to usurp our leadership role. It will not stop with Syria.  The two will expand their presence beyond Syria.

Now answer this question please.  Will Russia and Iran do a better job of  helping to make life better for countries and peoples of the Middle East?

Do you feel more comfortable with Russia and Iran taking the leadership role in Middle East affairs?

Maybe Friedman can answer that.

Meanwhile, Obama’s Republican critics totally lack the wisdom of our own experience. They blithely advocate “fire, ready, aim” in Syria without any reason to believe their approach will work there any better than it did for us in Iraq or Libya. People who don’t know how to fix inner-city Baltimore think they know how to rescue downtown Aleppo — from the air!

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/30/opinion/thomas-friedman-syria-obama-and-putin.html?_r=0

[Muzh]

That's right, Bashar al-Assad is a ruthless killer who tortures opponents. So do any of the arabian and not only arabian rulers in this part of world, though you like to notice only those who is labeled as Anti-American. Main question is what happens when a ruthless ruler will be dethroned. Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan give  illustrative examples of saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

Hmm, you must be reading some of our editorials.




Does the U.S. really need allies who behead, crucify dissidents?



It was likely embarrassing for the United Nations Human Rights Council when, in a statement released last week and attributed to a group of human-rights experts, it called on Saudi Arabia to immediately halt executions of children. After all, Saudi Arabia is a member of the board.


But as Saudi King Salman considers giving his blessing to the sentence handed Ali Mohammed al-Nimr, the case should also prove an embarrassment to the United States, whose alliances of convenience continue to force American values into compromising positions.


Mr. al-Nimr, arrested in 2012 at age 17, is to be beheaded and his body publicly crucified in a spectacle more commonly found in regions controlled by ISIS than that of a longtime U.S. ally.


Mr. al-Nimr was convicted of terrorism for his participation in the Arab Spring demonstrations, which included such heinous acts as protesting, chanting anti-government slogans and using social media to express views critical of the kingdom’s absolute monarchy.


The government also alleges he sheltered wanted men and participated in anti-government riots, but has provided no evidence of those claims beyond a confession of dubious merit commonly produced at Saudi Arabian show trials, which are largely conducted in secret.


In reality, the death sentence probably has more to do with the fact that Mr. al-Nimr is the nephew of an influential cleric critical of the government, who has also been sentenced to death. It reeks of North Korean-style generational punishment.


Saudi Arabia has executed 134 people this year, most, it is believed, by public beheading, according to the United Nations. Further, according to Amnesty International, Saudi Arabia is one of the top three executioners in the world, behind China and Iran.


The United States likely has no pull with those other two states, but Saudi Arabia’s position as a favored American ally affords the U.S. government the ability to relentlessly pursue the cause of Mr. al-Nimr. It should do so until he, and other prisoners held in contravention of American standards of the rule of law, receive a proper trial or are released.


And then, perhaps, we should reconsider our relationships with tyrannical nations.


http://www.ocregister.com/articles/saudi-685259-arabia-government.html

[Boethius]

That's right, Bashar al-Assad is a ruthless killer who tortures opponents. So do any of the arabian and not only arabian rulers in this part of world, though you like to notice only those who is labeled as Anti-American. Main question is what happens when a ruthless ruler will be dethroned. Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan give  illustrative examples of saying "The road to hell is paved with good intentions".

No, you are absolutely incorrect in assuming I only label those who are anti American as ruthless.  We are not talking about other Arab rulers, are we?


Interference on either side is not a good thing.  The government that replaced Saddam Hussein was not as ruthless as he was.  Not even close.  The issue there was a lack of power sharing.

[Boethius]

He admittedly got the position on the law review because he was black and was a mediocre writer.

Where is that "admittedly" from?  Breitbart?

Several of his law school professors say he stood out academically.  I think I'll go with their view over that of your former roommate.

It was an elite school in Hawaii, most of the kids weren't white. Asians dominate the elite schools in Hawaii. Ronald Loui a computer scientists was called Frederick in Obama's look and Mark Tuinei was Hawaiian who became an NFL star with the Dallas Cowboys.

His grandparents who he lived with weren't poor. Obama wasn't Cinderfella

I didn't say all the other students were white. I said he stood out as the only black student.

Had you read his book, you would understand that his race was a source of most of his school angst. 

His grandparents lived pay cheque to pay cheque, and he has written that his grandmother often went without meals so he could eat.  His grandfather was chronically underemployed, his grandmother used to catch the bus to work at 5:30 a.m.  By high school, his mother had returned to Hawaii, and he was living with her.  They often relied on food stamps.

[Muzh]

Ah! So that's his problem. He didn't come out from the country club elite. 

[Belvis]

The government that replaced Saddam Hussein was not as ruthless as he was.  Not even close.  The issue there was a lack of power sharing.

I don't think Iraqis feel comfortable to die from a lack of power sharing, just because   they have not ruthless government. You raise the issue in manner that moral qualities of a government is higher priority for you than the  human lives. I suppose the starting point must be  well-being of the nation, not  moral character  of the rulers of this nation. In this way tens of thousands Iraqis can not express their satisfication from the not so ruthless government because they are all dead.

[Gator]

We *the US* have supplied weapons, we have bombed. 

Weapons - Yes, but not to a significant degree. 

Bombed - Yes, but ISIS.   What's wrong with that?  No bombing of Asad's military. 

We continued to do our part to keep the civil war going.  We (and other western nations) had no business in Syria to begin with. 

Actually, I agree.  Another Obama Arab Spring.  What we did was enough to encourage a civil war, yet we did not equip the opposition with enough to prevail.  The end result are millions of refugees with designs for moving to Europe.  Another story.  Most of the refugees are young men who chose not to fight in the civil war and are using the war's refugee problem as an opportunity to immigrate to Europe.  Variation of a Trojan Horse?

It is hilarious listening to the news on the radio today, and hearing the 'surprised' voices cry out that Russia is bombing the moderate rebels and protecting Assad, of course they are protecting Assad, and why would that be a surprise?

Not a surprise to me.  I mentioned when this started that Assad was directing 95% of his operations at opposition forces and 5% at ISIS.   His ally Putin showed in  Ukraine his depth of  dark deceit.    The Russian immediate goal is to destroy the opposition forces and then address ISIS. 

  Independent nations can make their own choices, and if they 'want a friend' and choose Iran, Russia, or even the US then that is one thing....but it isn't up to us to force a very bloody regime change to gain advantage, and if we do, then we are not in any position to cry out when another nation does something similar. 

The US has long been the lone superpower in the region.   I contend,  considering the free hand we held. we have held back (other than  the example of Iraq).    We are now being replaced by an 800-LB GORILLA.  Independent people  are not so independent with an 800-lb gorilla in the room.

   ...it is ok with me if they [Russia]  have more influence, but I don't' believe for a moment any of the large Hegemonic nations is taking over the entire middle east anyway. 

I gather you have no problem with Russia being able to DRIVE THE AGENDA?   That is what Russia can do with Obama's slow retreat from the Middle East.  I believe it is time for Europe to take the lead to 1)  counter Russia and 2) balance the forces at play in the Middle East to bring stability.  Europe is importing far more of the Middle Eastern oil than the US, and Europe is receiving the refugees created by conflicts in the Middle East.  So Europe, add the Middle East to Ukraine as a place where you need to step up.   

[Boethius]

I don't think Iraqis feel comfortable to die from a lack of power sharing, just because   they have not ruthless government. You raise the issue in manner that moral qualities of a government is higher priority for you than the  human lives. I suppose the starting point must be  well-being of the nation, not  moral character  of the rulers of this nation. In this way tens of thousands Iraqis can not express their satisfication from the not so ruthless government because they are all dead.

A nation is sick if its government tortures citizens.


Iraq since the removal of Hussein has been unstable, due to continued sectarian violence, but that had subsided.  Most of this is the result of al Maliki.  I think you can compare it, in some ways, to the instability in Russia in the aftermath of the collapse of the USSR.  The difference in Russia is, a form of government had existed, and the population was not armed to the teeth.


Here is one view of al Maliki and the rise of ISIS -


http://www.timesofisrael.com/marginalized-by-maliki-iraqs-sunnis-turned-violent/


Was al Maliki torturing his opponents?  No.  He did have some of them killed in car bombs (sound familiar?), and others, he had arrested (does that also sound familiar?), however, the mass execution chambers of the Hussein era were gone.

[Boethius]

Another Obama Arab Spring.  What we did was enough to encourage a civil war, yet we did not equip the opposition with enough to prevail. 

I disagree with this.  The civil war had begun by the time the U.S. was involved.

[2tallbill]

Ah! So that's his problem. He didn't come out from the country club elite. 

Obama came out of a country club type school. He was no Cinderfella, he wasn't
a poor black kid. The School had maybe 1/3 whites and 2/3 non white, so there
wasn't some type of anti-black racial thing going on, especially not in Hawaii.

He was a mediocre student, but that was because he was a pot head and lazy (back
then) and not because of the color of his skin.

[Gator]

Maybe Friedman can answer that.

Meanwhile, Obama’s Republican critics totally lack the wisdom of our own experience. They blithely advocate “fire, ready, aim” in Syria without any reason to believe their approach will work there any better than it did for us in Iraq or Libya. People who don’t know how to fix inner-city Baltimore think they know how to rescue downtown Aleppo — from the air!

I am not sure of Friedman's  point.  Iraq was  Bush, although Obama's removal of troops made things worse (no one complains about the 38,000 troops in ROK).   Libya was Obama.   Result about the same. 

How many Republican candidates advocate a stronger US military operation in Syria.  News for you - McCain is not a candidate for the 2016 election.  :-)

 I say, "Go Europe!"  Get off your ass and fix the problem in the Middle East. 

[Boethius]

'I had never seen anything like it,' said Caesar, who still fears for his life. 'Before the uprising, the regime tortured prisoners to get information – now they were torturing to kill.'

Caesar's harrowing testament is contained in 'Operation Caesar', a new book by the French author Garance Le Caisne.

Referring to the corpses, Caesar told the author: 'I saw marks left by burning candles, and once the round mark of a stove – the sort you use to heat tea – that had burned someone's face and hair.
'Some people had deep cuts, some had their eyes gouged out, their teeth broken, you could see traces of lashes with those cables you use to start cars.'

Caesar was officially part of a team of forensic photographers working for Assad behind closed doors. But driven to act by the grotesque things he had witnessed, Caesar transferred the pictures of mutilated dead bodies from police computers on to USB sticks between 2011 and 2013.

These were smuggled abroad - often hidden in shoes and belts – through friends, and then posted on the Internet, where they are now available for all to see.

'We wanted to get these photos out so that the dead people's families would know that their loved ones had passed away,' said Caesar. 'People had to know what was going on in the prisons and detention centres. When Bashar al-Assad falls, you can be sure that the regime will want to destroy the evidence.' . . .
The tortured, starved and burned bodies in the photographs are the political opponents of Assad's regime. Many of them, who were among the regime's first victims, are only demonstrators who dared to stand up against the dictator.

They have been put through hell - photographs that can't be published show evidence of lashings, burnings, extreme starvation, scalpings and castration.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3257299/New-book-reveals-grotesque-torture-murder-meted-Syrian-dictator-Assad-man-Russia-s-Putin-helping-power.html#ixzz3nQl4Vsxl

[Boethius]

Obama came out of a country club type school. He was no Cinderfella, he wasn't
a poor black kid. The School had maybe 1/3 whites and 2/3 non white, so there
wasn't some type of anti-black racial thing going on, especially not in Hawaii.

He was a mediocre student, but that was because he was a pot head and lazy (back
then) and not because of the color of his skin.

He was a poor black kid.  He got into that elite school despite the fact his family could not afford the tuition because his Grandfather was a schmoozer, who lobbied for him with an acquaintance who sat on the school's board.  The school accepted X number of students who were economically disadvantaged.  Obama was one of those students.

Obama never stated there was an anti black thing going on in Hawaii, just that he knew he was different, and at the time, it bothered him.  For a kid that age, anything different is usually a negative.

[Gator]

I disagree with this.  The civil war had begun by the time the U.S. was involved.

Whether you recognize it or not, the Arab Spring flames were fanned (not started) by the US  throughout the Middle East.  Ambassador Stevens died in Benghazi while brokering the shipment of captured Libyan arms to Syrian opposition forces.  The seeds for the  Arab Spring rebellions were not  planted by the US but were  a homegrown response a long time ago  to tyrannical dictators.

[Boethius]

I am not sure of Friedman's  point.  Iraq was  Bush, although Obama's removal of troops made things worse (no one complains about the 38,000 troops in ROK).   Libya was Obama.  Result about the same.

Other than the over 6,800 American families who will never see their loved ones, and the hundreds of thousands of wounded now being stiffed by the VA.

[Boethius]

Whether you recognize it or not, the Arab Spring flames were fanned (not started) by the US  throughout the Middle East.  Ambassador Stevens died in Benghazi while brokering the shipment of captured Libyan arms to Syrian opposition forces.  The seeds for the  Arab Spring rebellions were not  planted by the US but were  a homegrown response a long time ago  to tyrannical dictators.

True, but note, by the time the US had decided to arm Syrian rebels, the civil war had already started.  You could lay this at the feet of the neocons as well.  One of the points made in Project for a New American Century was that by removing Saddam Hussein, the seeds of democracy would be sown in the Middle East.

[2tallbill]

Obama never stated there was an anti black thing going on in Hawaii, just that he knew he was different, and at the time, it bothered him.  For a kid that age, anything different is usually a negative.

I was different, I was the tallest kid in our school and a basketball star. It might have
sounded good in his book, but Obama wasn't a poor black kid, he wasn't rich and there
were rich kids. There are plenty of Pacific Islanders who have dark skin. He was writing
a book and exaggerated, it happens.

[Boethius]

I was different, I was the tallest kid in our school and a basketball star. It might have
sounded good in his book, but Obama wasn't a poor black kid, he wasn't rich and there
were rich kids. There are plenty of Pacific Islanders who have dark skin. He was writing
a book and exaggerated, it happens.

Rich kids, and middle class kids, don't use food stamps. 

I have spent a considerable amount of time through my life in Hawaii, last time, in March/April in Honolulu.  My family until fairly recently, owned a condo for over 30 years on the Big Island, which still has a significant native population.  I have never seen a Pacific Islander who looks African American.

[Boethius]

Obama's Grandfather wasn't poor when Obama lived with them.

I'm afraid you are mistaken.  His Grandfather worked in a furniture store, and often was unemployed or underemployed.  Most of the burden of feeding the family fell on his Grandmother.


 

[2tallbill]

Rich kids, and middle class kids, don't use food stamps. 

I have spent a considerable amount of time through my life in Hawaii, last time, in March/April in Honolulu.  My family until fairly recently, owned a condo for over 30 years on the Big Island, which still has a significant native population.  I have never seen a Pacific Islander who looks African American.

Communist welfare mothers can live on food stamps that doesn't make the communist
welfare mothers parents poor does it? Both his grandparents had decent paying jobs
and his grandmother was vice president of a bank.

His grandparents weren't poor or lower middle class

I have never seen a Pacific Islander who looks African American.

In Hawaii they always had a blend of different racial backgrounds and his school was
no different. He was writing his Cinderfella piece for a book and it wasn't true.