How important is it for her to Speak English

[jb]

but here if you post like a troll and you will be roasted like one….

And you can bet I will be there lighting the marshmellows.  Don't be stupid Peewee, we OMBs can be cruel if we want to be.

[Turboguy]

Oh, a cookout.  Can we have hot dogs too?  Well lets make it a bonfire and I will give you your other log you like to burn on a silver platter.  Perhaps I understand PeeWees point and will try to explain what I think he meant.

I don't think he meant "Arranged Marriage" as we traditionally think of it and as practiced in some of the Hindu marriages.  That term may not have been the best choice of expressions but there is no good expression to cover it. 

I think what PeeWee was trying to say was that in a courtship in America you often date someone for years.  Perhaps every day for years.

With a marriage to an FSU women, depending on your intelligence, the amount of vacation time, the amount of cash you have and if you have been hanging around here long enough to listen to the good advice from jb, leslie, KenC and the others including PeeWee and myself, and watched some of the crash and burn stories like PG, sonar and others, even including myself.  I will also add  if you listen to the Agency hype as well, then you may have a differnet scenario.

Using the typical one week wonder as an example, and we all know that is not a good thing, but we also know it happens.  So you have a guy who really does not know his woman.  Much of what is in his mind about her is fantasy.  He pictures a wonderful life with a beautiful, sexy gal.  He might be in lust with her but he really does not know her well enough to be in love.   With the gal she meets a guy who she thinks may give her a better life, who may be a good man as far as she can tell, who will drink less vodka than the Russian men she knows and who vows to be faithful.  She also is not in love with him but sees him as a man who will be a good husband and may give her a better life.  I think a lot of the FSU women who do a quick K-1 are marrying a man they think they can fall in love with some day.   So after 5 or 6 days together they start the k-1 process and basically arrange a marriage.   

For those people they are having less face to face time,  they are relying on a quick read and they really need a lot of luck. 

When I first read PeeWees post I did not agree with it.  When I thought more about it, I started to agree more.   I am not saying what he is talking about with Arranged Marriages is true in ever case.   I do think it is common though, more so than we might think and I hope RWD may open some eyes to the difficulties they will face.

[PeeWee]

PeeWee,

You just went from mild irritant to troll in a single post.   You are one of the guys on this board who talks a lot (over a 1100 posts) but says very little.

If you post sh@t I will tell you it stinks!

“snip” these foreign marriages, by in large, are by definition "arranged marriages".

Do you know ANYONE who is in an arranged marriage.  I am fewkin certain you do not!  I have personal friends who are Hindu and are in arranged marriages.  These marriages are crafted with so much care.  Divorce is not possible.  The families and their children must live with the consequences of their chouces for the rest of their lives.

Your comparison of this process to people in MOB is complete and utter rubbish.

As such the rules of what we would consider to be a "normal" courtship and eventual marriage are different.

No they are not.  You are twisting reality to justify this bullsh@t argument -

Because it is different then different processes and logic is applied. The "in face time" is shorter hence the "quick read" has to be relied on more. Luck plays into it as well. The odds of success are lower as a result but we guys have to know that going into this. Decisions are more hasty because the distance and because of the time constraints.

This is not just bollocks.  It is evil minded bollocks crafted by you to justify unacceptable, bad behaviour.

There never will be enough time to come to know her in these situations.

How about living together for 5 months in Ukraine and 4 months in UK.  This is what I did.  I certainly knew my wife well enough when I proposed marriage.  So did JB, KenC, BC, Conner, Bruce etc.  The list of married guys is very long.  Two guys in process now (Michelangelo and Groovlstk) are taking their time and putting in the effort to get to know their girlfriends.  Posting advice like this is dangerous and shows just how much of a loser you are!

This is a wing and a prayer process, at best. Those are the rules that apply here. That is why the One Week Wonders are sometimes as successful as the Ten Year Ploders. I see it working successfully for both.

YOU ARE WRONG  The one week wonders and the sex tourists very rarely build successful marriages.  The guys who take this process seriously and carefully are the successful group.   


If you continue to post puerile rubbish like this,  I will open a thread in No Holds Barred.  You might get away with posting like this on another board but here if you post like a troll and you will be roasted like one….

You apparently missed the thead that discussed this. Like I said it was not my observation I was merely repeating it. I think I struck a nerve with you, Leslie. It is said that when one lashes out it fustration he is doing so to cover up his own insecurity. I now see that in you yet I wonder what it is that you are so insecure about? Because your level of frustration seems to be at an all time  high. Chill, Baby!

By the way, here is my reference. I standby my comment. By definition many of these MOB marriages are arranged.

"According to data supplied by the U.S. Census Bureau, there were 2,395,000 marriages in the U.S. in the 12 months ending June, 1997 (and 1,154,000 divorces in the same period). The 4,000 to 6,000 marriages involving international services represent, then, a tiny portion (.021 percent) of the women who marry U.S. men.
It is interesting to note that, based largely on data provided by the agencies themselves (along with the Commission on Filipinos Overseas report cited above), marriages arranged through these services would appear to have a lower divorce rate than the nation as a whole, fully 80 percent of these marriages having lasted over the years for which reports are available." 

What is says to me is that based on data provided my marriage agencies that marriages arranged by these agencies, hence an arranged marriaged, appear to have lower divorce rates..." Seems pretty clear to me.

Peewee

[Admin]

WOW!

I've been busy dealing with a bunch of rabid dogs from a GW wanna-be competitor board, and come back to find:

(a) an excellent topic, with
(b) terrific participation, unfortunately
(c) entering into the personal attack phase of the debate.

Come on guys. I know most of you pretty well now - and I know there are some with thinner and some with thicker skins - but please refrain from from the personal attacks. They detract from your fundamental argument and erode the foundation. So long as you stick to facts and issues, the discourse and value of the thread can be excellent.

And BTW - if you REALLY, REALLY want to get in some internet fist-cuffs, I can most certainly tell you where to find it.

- Dan

[PeeWee]

WOW!

I've been busy dealing with a bunch of rabid dogs from a GW wanna-be competitor board, and come back to find:

(a) an excellent topic, with
(b) terrific participation, unfortunately
(c) entering into the personal attack phase of the debate.

Come on guys. I know most of you pretty well now - and I know there are some with thinner and some with thicker skins - but please refrain from from the personal attacks. They detract from your fundamental argument and erode the foundation. So long as you stick to facts and issues, the discourse and value of the thread can be excellent.

And BTW - if you REALLY, REALLY want to get in some internet fist-cuffs, I can most certainly tell you where to find it.

- Dan

Besides the attack, such as Leslies, shows a definite weakness in character. When you feel threatened you attack.

Peewee

[PeeWee]

And you can bet I will be there lighting the marshmellows.  Don't be stupid Peewee, we OMBs can be cruel if we want to be.

You bet.

Peewee

[PeeWee]

Oh, a cookout.  Can we have hot dogs too?  Well lets make it a bonfire and I will give you your other log you like to burn on a silver platter.  Perhaps I understand PeeWees point and will try to explain what I think he meant.

I don't think he meant "Arranged Marriage" as we traditionally think of it and as practiced in some of the Hindu marriages.  That term may not have been the best choice of expressions but there is no good expression to cover it. 

I think what PeeWee was trying to say was that in a courtship in America you often date someone for years.  Perhaps every day for years.

With a marriage to an FSU women, depending on your intelligence, the amount of vacation time, the amount of cash you have and if you have been hanging around here long enough to listen to the good advice from jb, leslie, KenC and the others including PeeWee and myself, and watched some of the crash and burn stories like PG, sonar and others, even including myself.  I will also add  if you listen to the Agency hype as well, then you may have a differnet scenario.

Using the typical one week wonder as an example, and we all know that is not a good thing, but we also know it happens.  So you have a guy who really does not know his woman.  Much of what is in his mind about her is fantasy.  He pictures a wonderful life with a beautiful, sexy gal.  He might be in lust with her but he really does not know her well enough to be in love.   With the gal she meets a guy who she thinks may give her a better life, who may be a good man as far as she can tell, who will drink less vodka than the Russian men she knows and who vows to be faithful.  She also is not in love with him but sees him as a man who will be a good husband and may give her a better life.  I think a lot of the FSU women who do a quick K-1 are marrying a man they think they can fall in love with some day.   So after 5 or 6 days together they start the k-1 process and basically arrange a marriage.   

For those people they are having less face to face time,  they are relying on a quick read and they really need a lot of luck. 

When I first read PeeWees post I did not agree with it.  When I thought more about it, I started to agree more.   I am not saying what he is talking about with Arranged Marriages is true in ever case.   I do think it is common though, more so than we might think and I hope RWD may open some eyes to the difficulties they will face.

LOL!!! Best not to agree with the reigning member of the unholy trio, Turbo. I think what happened is that Leslie and JB left their intellegent thought somewhere else today. What I said seems pretty basic to me. Either you agree with it or you do not. The weak ones will lash out at it because they do not understand it. I will forgive them for that.

Peewee

[Momus]

By the way, here is my reference. I standby my comment. By definition many of these MOB marriages are arranged.

Every marriage is "arranged" by someone. In the West, it's usually arranged by the bride and groom once they've gotten to know each other.

"It is interesting to note that, based largely on data provided by the agencies themselves (along with the Commission on Filipinos Overseas report cited above), marriages arranged through these services would appear to have a lower divorce rate than the nation as a whole, fully 80 percent of these marriages having lasted over the years for which reports are available." 

What is says to me is that based on data provided my marriage agencies that marriages arranged by these agencies, hence an arranged marriaged, appear to have lower divorce rates..." Seems pretty clear to me.

Peewee, the quoted passage says "arranged through these services" not "arranged by these services." I'm pretty sure a guy still has to arrange his own marriage, even if he meets his girl through a dating agency. So, yeah, if you misread the passage, you might claim that all MOB marriages are "by definition" arranged marriages. Once you've emptied the term of all meaning and context, though, you might as well go ahead and claim that all marriages are arranged marriages. And then...what was your point, exactly?

For what it's worth, I might agree that you have a point if you could actually find a true and legitimate matchmaking service, one that you could actually trust. You let the service find and select your bride, you trust that they've made a good decision for you, and you get married. You wouldn't even have to meet your bride-to-be first. Why waste a week of vacation time and a lot of money? I think we can agree, though, that few one-week-wonders are using this kind of matchmaking service. Yes?

[PeeWee]

Every marriage is "arranged" by someone. In the West, it's usually arranged by the bride and groom once they've gotten to know each other.

Peewee, the quoted passage says "arranged through these services" not "arranged by these services." I'm pretty sure a guy still has to arrange his own marriage, even if he meets his girl through a dating agency. So, yeah, if you misread the passage, you might claim that all MOB marriages are "by definition" arranged marriages. Once you've emptied the term of all meaning and context, though, you might as well go ahead and claim that all marriages are arranged marriages. And then...what was your point, exactly?

For what it's worth, I might agree that you have a point if you could actually find a true and legitimate matchmaking service, one that you could actually trust. You let the service find and select your bride, you trust that they've made a good decision for you, and you get married. You wouldn't even have to meet your bride-to-be first. Why waste a week of vacation time and a lot of money? I think we can agree, though, that few one-week-wonders are using this kind of matchmaking service. Yes?

I don't know, Momus. A matchmaker would qualify as an arranger of marriages. Are there such services? And you did see my point and you took it a step further. "Every marriage is arranged by someone." I did not claim any different, did I?

I said, "...these foreign marriages, by in large, are by definition "arranged marriages..." And I said that this term was used by someone other than me, meaning that I was not the author of it. The point was that if a second party arranged the marriage for the couple then the rules of courtship would be different than the marriage that was not arranged by a second party.

I also said that because, of distance and time, it would be hard for any man to be able to come to know his future bride as well as the man who dated a woman who lived but 5 miles from him. Therefore he would have to relay on his instincts, interpersonal skills, and some luck...the wing and the prayer...in order to make it happen for him. A One Week Wonder could make it work for just those reasons.

I am living proof that it is not necessary to live with a woman in order to know the woman. I have yet to do that and I most likely won't.

Here's the deal, Momus, and you know this to be true, the divorce rate in the US is exceeding 50%. That's the odds. I do not think anyone knows what the WWO's odds are or what the Ten Year Ploders odds are but the combined odds are 50%. 50% of all off us, the gay beards, the pickle packers, the WWO, everyone has no better than a 50% chance of making it or breaking it. The odds are not in our favors. Yet we try because we believe that we will be different than all of those that have gone before us.

By the way, appreciate your thoughts on this.

Peewee

[swindoom]

An arranged marriage is when the bride and groom do not have a choice in who they marry, it has been decided by other family members.

Agencies are not marriage agencies they are introduction/dating agencies, your definition of an arranged marriage would include being introduced/set-up by friends. A better name would be "arranged introduction".

[Jet]

This is way late but I just plodded through the 3 pages posted since yesterday...

Momus,
I think your's is as good an interpretation of the "Be a man" philosophy as I've ever heard. As far as toning down the harshness, maybe eliminate the "Don't be a loser," at the begining and the rest can stand as is. I enjoy reading your take on things as you seem much more articulate and logical than the average noob 

[Bruce]

"I said, "...these foreign marriages, by in large, are by definition "arranged marriages..." And I said that this term was used by someone other than me, meaning that I was not the author of it. The point was that if a second party arranged the marriage for the couple then the rules of courtship would be different than the marriage that was not arranged by a second party."

Pee Wee - just because someone writes something obviously stupid on the internet does not mean it is anything close to the truth.  Come on, you know better than that.  Taking misleading or erroneous quotes and using them in your arguments will only cause people do doubt your credibility and if persisting will only lead to ill will, troll label and the ignore button.  If you look on various feminazi websites you can quote all sorts of rubbish quoted by "someone other than me." 

In this case you are better off saying nothing, though by now it may seem like a game to you, which will only perpetuate the vicious cycle you are creating for yourself.  If you have no intention of ever marrying a FSU women, play on.  However, it is in your interest to apologize if you ever want sound advice on various issues that may one day be important to you, like immigration. 

[jb]

Like Jet's post above, I find myself with a growing admiration for Momus's posted philosophy.  Rarely do we find a noob with his head screwed on so correctly.

If I failed to welcome him to the board before, I'd like to correct that now: Welcome Momus, I have a feeling you will be a great asset to the community.

[Momus]

The OMBs are getting soft in their old age. 

Thanks for the welcome, guys.

[catzenmouse]

Shhhh! Don't tell anyone that. We're actually pretty easy to get along with... sometimes! 

The OMBs are getting soft in their old age. 

Thanks for the welcome, guys.

[WmGO]

To answer the original question, it is VERY important. Relationships are about communication and unless two people speak the same language a real relationship is simply not possible  99.9% of the time. This is so obvious that I consider the original question to be dumb.

[catzenmouse]

They say the only dumb question is the one not asked.

There are as many views on this topic as there are members here (and probably a few more than that) and if the two people decide to get together and make a go of it then one of them (usually the woman as she will be more likely to move to his country) will have to learn the language of that country to be successful in her new life.

 There are quite a few relationships that are going strong that began with her not knowing much (or any) of the language of the man.

 Is this a tougher way to go for a couple? Yes!

 Does it make the getting to know each other harder? Yes!

 Does it mean that it cannot work? No, it does not. It means that they have to be even more committed to this learning curve and to a great deal of hard work on the road ahead.

 Should you marry someone that you cannot communicate with? No!

 Do people do this? Yes!

 Do they "crash and burn"? Most of the time.

Ken

To answer the original question, it is VERY important. Relationships are about communication and unless two people speak the same language a real relationship is simply not possible  99.9% of the time. This is so obvious that I consider the original question to be dumb.

[Turboguy]

Well said Ken

[David1963]

So far it looks like the majority of people have voted the same as me 6-7.  I have no idea what the numbers mean, I am just going by the explainations after the numbers.  It seems that people tended to disagree with the assertion in my thread about speaking GOOD English but here they seem to agree with it.    ???

[Turboguy]

David, I almost think that a lot of us felt the same but because it was a general discussion exactly how each felt was a little more vague.  There are still a substantial number of guy who think it is totally impossible.   My feelings too where that it is about a 7, perhaps an 8 on a difficulty scale.

To me if there are some people who have done it and there are then it is not impossible. 

[BC]

I can only say (for probably the thousand 'th time) that when we met we were able to communicate quite well (her english maybe an 7 on a scale of 10).

Still we experienced communications problems that kept things on a 'knife's edge' for quite a while. 

It's language ability + cultural understanding + mentality + adjustment (for both) and infinite patience that really counts in the end.

[jj]

I have to go with 6 or 7.  I think expressing all these opinions about RW language barrier is very helpful for  the newbies and the "been there-done that"  fellows.  I think Ken's input about working thru the various phases of the difficult part of  the relationship is good advice.  I agree also with those who said responsibility of the guy to follow thru on his commitment to make it  work to the best of his ability  and not play with her heart is good advice.  I think also , as many, that each case is unique and how hard are both parties willing to work in learning each others language to make it work.  I think if she can be educated in advance about the adjustment she will have to make in the  culture change, that she will have less surprises.  If she knows he is committed to helping her with the adjustment,  and she is willing to be patient, then the relationship should blossom.  I think the initial chemistry, realistic expectations, and at least mutual compatibility  should be communicated even if it be thru an a trusted human translator on the visits to see her.   Getting her into english classes asap , and working with her vocabulary should be a priority for any responsible man serious about making the relationship work.   jj

[swindoom]

Since my wife has arrived I have met lots of Russian women in the town I live in who are or have been married to English guys. The vast majority of marriages that have serious problems or have ended in divorce the initial English ability of the Russian lady has not been the cause of the problems. Even for women who have good English skills the main problem in these cases is lack of time together before proposing/marriage, often these women only see the guy one time before they get married and it's too late realise that they do not know each other. They often complain that the guy changed after getting married but in reality they did not really know them before.

Some people attach too much importance to an FSU womans English ability when in reality this is more do to with how much time and effort they are willing to give to the process of getting to know someone.

[andrewfi]

Swindoom, if you are saying that people did not know each other well enough, please tell us just in what way, lwas ack of communication not an issue?

If the people had been better able to communicate it is hard to argue that they would not have made better use of limited time together.

Think on this one:
Apart from the smell of her bum, if you can not communicate, what is the value in paying for English lessons to find out if she is worth getting to know?
On that basis, one might as well simply roll up to an English language school, announce auditions and make a choice - saves the preliminary messing around sniffing bums and guessing who to bet English lesson money on!

[swindoom]

Swindoom, if you are saying that people did not know each other well enough, please tell us just in what way, lwas ack of communication not an issue?

They are people who met once for a week or two then made a huge decision to get married. In some cases the women spoke English well in others they did not. Often the guy has never visited the womans home town, met her parents/friends and knows nothing about her previous existence apart from what he has been told.

If the people had been better able to communicate it is hard to argue that they would not have made better use of limited time together.

In some cases it is not a lack of communication that is the issue, it is not spending enough quality time together and getting carried away with the romance/emotion of an unusual situation. It can take a while to understand a persons character and habits.

Think on this one:
Apart from the smell of her bum, if you can not communicate, what is the value in paying for English lessons to find out if she is worth getting to know?
On that basis, one might as well simply roll up to an English language school, announce auditions and make a choice - saves the preliminary messing around sniffing bums and guessing who to bet English lesson money on!

You can communicate with anyone even if you do not speak the same language, it is just a question of the minimum level of communication you are personally willing to accept at the beginning of a relationship, "beginning" being the important point. At the point when a proposal may occur the level of communication should be sufficient for everyone to understand clearly want is said and the consequences of what is being said. Right from the first time we met, my wife and I have always had lots of converstations. The longer the relationship has gone on the more complex and advanced our conversations have become. Now we quite often look back at our first meeting, jokingly wondering how we managed to talk to each other but we did, without an interpretor.