Operation White Panther

[JohnDearGreen]

What do you mean exactly by indispicable John ?

Just joking.

Even if she forgot her charger, she still has many options to send some news. It's just i'm not a priority as AJ said.

Yes, we are a much higher priority when in their country than when out.
I once spent 3 hours trying to get a phone connection to my 1st Kiev GF when she was on vacation at her old apt. in Odessa.  After finally getting a connection, she says "can you call back in an hour?  I'm watching a TV program now.".

[Boethius]

True!
Ukrainian women over 40, usually with 2 kids and chubby, have bleak prospects unless they are very attractive.
That's the reason they look for foreign men.

25-35 year-old ladies, talented and educated, often try to meet Western men because these ladies can achieve more in the West.

You know very little of Ukrainian culture.  Lots of UM over 40, many of whom are from a peasant backgrounds, like chubby women. 

Women over 40 look for foreign men because there are fewer UM in that age group, as alcohol abuse begins to take its toll. 

Most UW looking for foreigners do so to expand their options, not because they wish to leave their families, and everything familiar, to live with a WM.

[Patagonie]

Just joking.Yes, we are a much higher priority when in their country than when out.
I once spent 3 hours trying to get a phone connection to my 1st Kiev GF when she was on vacation at her old apt. in Odessa.  After finally getting a connection, she says "can you call back in an hour?  
 

I would tell you a little story with a lady i met three weeks ago. CaptainOfCustoms spent three hours and half with me and the terp, she was shy but she showed quite a lot of sign of interest. I sent her a SMS to propose her a diner because i like her, less than blue sweeties, because i had'nt met Bluee sweeties yet of course. The meeting with CaptainOfCustoms had been scheduled for 20:00 and finally reported to 21:15. I was leaving my previous meeting (of  20:15 i think) and walking fastly to reach the meeting place when i just received this SMS from CaptainOfCustoms :"I'm cooking, eat and i still not to be free, sorry" Do you believe it ? This is strange. 

But i have better, the day after to see how the land lies i send and other sms  type how are you ? Answer : sms1 : i'm fine sms2: maybe we can echange mail and skype ? When you are going in Kharkov ?

Of course when i'm in her city it's time to chit and chat on Skype and write long letters 

A lot of FSU women don't have a real idea of what is the cost of this sort of travel, financially, in time vacation, emotionally and it's not resting at all. So for some (or many?) your time is free. The time you offerer to her, in particular in a VM, if she don't get it, she excludes herself from the race. GIRLS : when a guy shows, and if he is challenger, you must priorize him high in your time, as possible, even if you have had any contact before, and try to spend with him as MANY time AS POSSIBLE .

[Patagonie]

To not add to the crowded topic "why FSUW are looking abroad". And in particular about this one, of Anotherkiwi .
 
" It's interesting to me that there only appears to be a handful of "still lookings" in those who post (reasonably) regularly - myself, LAMan, ManLooking, The Natural, Vincenzo and Patagonie amongst them - and that the remainder are already married, engaged or otherwise seriously committed.  Although of course there are pearls of wisdom scattered amongst the threads, it still amazes me just how easily threads can get side-tracked as those who've already completed this journey bicker amongst themselves").
 
I would say that to be an always "still looking", for now two years is a litlle worrying, but really just a little. What is giving me a lot of willingness is to see a lot of remainder married, engaged, or otherwise seriously commited (i think to Kievstar for example, Turboguy). And also in EM's old favorites, i'm sometimes browsing old profiles wich are obviously not avalaible (i know half of them are surely blocked for scam reasons, i'm not naïve).
 
What is also giving me a lot of willingness is a guy i met who explained me that his search had needed 6 years, and now he is happily married with his wife for 6 years (so he started 12 years ago). Each year, i'm learning experience and informations, i'm earning more money and can offer more security, i'm maturing, my seduction, much to my surprise is still improving (or in a different way perhaps). The only thing i deplore is i take each year one digit more and i need to shift my court to take in account (and it closes me some opportunities).
 
I really consider myself as doing a good job in 26 months, with a lot of work, a strong commitment (62 days off abroad in 22 months, 8 travels, budget of nearly 25000 bucks already, upgrading my english from school level to a TOEIC between 860 and 900, beginning russian now, and spending between probably 700 and 1000 hours on internet about the issue). I've made some mistakes, met scammers and also a pro prodaters, and deal/argue with them with good success.
 
The more important is to always fancy to go. It's the most difficult thing to manage. I can tell you fellows that i crave to return to Ukraine.  No matter is it to see Blue Sweeties (i would prefer if possible) or to chase at Dnepropetrovsk, but really i already want to return. This guy said to me : if you are serious, if you have the money to go, it's 100% of success. There are enough girls in FSU, it's not a problem of girls.
Since i met him, i can say that it's engravied in my heard, i just need odds, and to take care of my weaknesses (if i cannot improve it, just don't forget where they are).
Pat

[Vincenzo]

I don't understand.

You want to meet several women.
Why don't you grab their emails from the agency and start contacting them?

When you like a lady, it often happens that she doesn't like you. It's life.
It's better to filter her out as early as possible because later she'll make up excuses to get rid of you.

[SFandEE]

This guy said to me : if you are serious, if you have the money to go, it's 100% of success. There are enough girls in FSU, it's not a problem of girls.
Since i met him, i can say that it's engravied in my heard, i just need odds, and to take care of my weaknesses (if i cannot improve it, just don't forget where they are).
Pat

That is very well said.

[Patagonie]

I don't understand.

You want to meet several women.
Why don't you grab their emails from the agency and start contacting them?

When you like a lady, it often happens that she doesn't like you. It's life.
It's better to filter her out as early as possible because later she'll make up excuses to get rid of you.

..

Vincenzo, read with me, carefully : I can tell you fellows that i crave to return to Ukraine.  No matter is it to see Blue Sweeties (i would prefer if possible) or to chase at Dnepropetrovsk.
As i already repeat in accordance to my strategic plan for the next 15 days : i will wait some movement from the girl, if not i will quickly book a travel to the same city.
.

Vincenzo, why haven't i send any letters to the ladies in my first travel ( i help you, the answer is in my trip report ) ? And why i will generally not use this option with almost all agencies (many reasons, Vincenzo), do your work now.

[Anotherkiwi]

...I would say that to be an always "still looking", for now two years is a litlle worrying, but really just a little. What is giving me a lot of willingness is to see a lot of remainder married, engaged, or otherwise seriously commited (i think to Kievstar for example, Turboguy)...

Yes, it gives me heart, too!

...What is also giving me a lot of willingness is a guy i met who explained me that his search had needed 6 years, and now he is happily married with his wife for 6 years (so he started 12 years ago). Each year, i'm learning experience and informations, i'm earning more money and can offer more security, i'm maturing, my seduction, much to my surprise is still improving (or in a different way perhaps). The only thing i deplore is i take each year one digit more and i need to shift my court to take in account (and it closes me some opportunities)...

I also started looking probably six years ago, but have certainly not being doing so continuously.  I've taken a break after each trip to reassess whether or not it's worthwhile to continue looking - the people I've met (not just the women I've dated) have been enough to convince me that yes, there is a fairly good chance that the FSU is where I will find that special someone.  Of course I would have no problem if a local woman stole my heart, but that doesn't seem likely at the moment.

I really consider myself as doing a good job in 26 months, with a lot of work, a strong commitment (62 days off abroad in 22 months, 8 travels, budget of nearly 25000 bucks already, upgrading my english from school level to a TOEIC between 860 and 900, beginning russian now, and spending between probably 700 and 1000 hours on internet about the issue). I've made some mistakes, met scammers and also a pro prodaters, and deal/argue with them with good success.

This is where we differ - unlike French people, I don't get six weeks annual leave, nor am I only three hours away from Moscow or Kyiv!  The one advantage I have over Patagonie is that English is my native language, and that is what most FSUW learn.  However, his English is improving all the time (it's noticeable even in the period he has been posting), and I don't think that women who speak reasonable English will have too many problems with him (well, not in the language department, anyway - not so sure about the "seduction" bit!  ).

[Patagonie]

It's a regular topic here on RWD that i'm going to browse, but beyond this point i want to show my globlal thinking, my global strategy, wich come from  a lot of extensive reading on this forum, a tactictal analysis, what i'm living in my FSU's adventures and also my global experience in life.
 
I'M NOT STARTING A STRUGGLE VOVO vs WMVM.
 
I just want to highlight my personnal sight of the issue wich determines "Patagonie campaign, operation Barbarossa".
 
 Part 1
 
The way i want to use is : how use odds (or avoid) to have the maximal success. The success is to meet a partner with yours requirements (R factor) so long as your lady find the same in you. For my requirements see posts in the beginning of my trip and add this so special feeling i called "flying hand by hand". For the requirements of the lady, ask her 
 
 
1/ More women you meet (Say nW factor), and more selective you can be and more easily you can choice the fitted partner to you, PROVIDED AS they are also interested in you.
 
2/ The way to raised the range of ladies interested by you is know by (the generic word) the game. Say G letter  which lead a nW x G = inW (corrected factor = girls interested by you for a second date).
 .
 Vincenzo, where is Vincenzo ? We have lost Vincenzo. 

3/ So now we have inW corrected by the R factor.
 
/ but many others  parameters are needed. Monthly money needed (M) and time vacation (D).
 
Factor D (expressed in days) and M (expressed in bucks). M = 400 x (D/12).
 
Practice exercise : if you have a 4 weeks annual time of vacation you need to earn enough to expense 930 $ per month for your goal. In my opinion the treshold is 4000 $ per month of earning (without debt except a mortgage) to think to have a good success in this endeavour. And extra budget is needed for the first year when your lady is coming in your homeland. Anyways higher will be your earning and better your chances are.
 
 Vincenzo, seat here and stay by the blackboard. 
  Elseif the teacher -->  <-- Vincenzo
 
 Don't forget that G is balanced by M and M balanced your court too as M is a factor in the self esteem of yourself, in your global life AND when you are dating during yours abroad vacations with the aim of your FSU marriage.
 
 Part 2 ... later.
 
 

[Patagonie]

Summarize of the last post :
nW x G = inW = girls interested by you for a second date (G game, and nW the number of girls interested to meet you for a first meeting)
M = 400 x (D/12) = Monthly money needed (D time vacation)

I would bring a new one here which is the interest that the girl has for you. It can be up, it can be down, if you are hitting a score below a special threshold you are ejected --> you loose the girl. You must keep a girl her interest above this treshold. This thresold varies slightly, depending the woman, but it is a constant. Interest is a sum of what she want to put into the basket. The level of interest she has for you determines your score in the competition amongst all others suitors. Some actions are increasing your score and some are decreasing it. You can fall to the last position and being forgotten (and be dumped when you hit the threshold).

Call I this factor

Now we can say that everybody has a value, factor V.

In a WOVO or a WMVO your are giving her a high value. And so giving her too much value, you are decreasing  your own value. Wich decreases her interest for  you.
The fact is that your soul, your mind, your attitude, yours actions are disturbed as soon as the rapport whith the lady is not in your favor (see the present trip of Neo).  In your favor i mean as soon you are dependant, as soon you have NO CHOICE.
A man who has plenty choice is always more exciting and attracting for a girl, she must chase you to win you. If she has nothing to do to win you so the man has almost no worth (V factor), and neither she has.

In practice, it's very tempting to write or to answer on sites or even on agencies. But sooner or later you will have to make a choice. Yes the girl can be real, yes you are knowing her better but a lot of things are missing  :
Wich are :
Physical attraction
The ability for the man to aim the meeting in the direction of the bed.
If both conditions are met so the VO can be  a winner and it brings a lot of comfort because you know each others (really true or not it's almost the same) and so it enhances the comfort between the two partners so you can go quickly in the F... case.


THE VO /
The odds, saying a good professional who has seen hundreds or thousands meetings are 85 % of failure. If we leave apart the seekers who pack the woman in a dozen of days the success is really lower than 15 %, FOR A SECOND MEETING.
Would you play ?
The fact is that human things are always more complicated than some mathematics formulas. The way used by some is named the comfort. So some prefer to write and for many (personals) reasons prefer to do a VO. I think it's better to be in congruence with who you are rather than to do something for what you are not good and not prepared, this why  i'm not arguing between VO and VM. I'm just looking odds and comfort and results, and try to apply for my OWN personality.
I think however there is an optimum in odds. It's why i'm going to pursue this post.

So we were discussing about the VO. The problem is that your are not choosing the location where you would go later.
Which means that your loosing some value. Why ? It's not easy to recruit a backup and manage her interest (and be interested genuinely by her too). It's why agencies are always a very good backup.
True or false ?
Generally false because there are very few good or very good agencies, so the odds that your girl lives in a city where you have valuables agencies as backup are low or null. And it is the same for sites if the girl you want to visit is far from bigs cities because you will have  very few or null choice too.
In a VO you are loosing control from the beginning, as soon you start your FIRST letter. You are accepting the odds wich are at least in 85% a failure. A lot of, we can say everybody thinks he will be the winner, as everyone who is playing with money in a lottery. With a less than 15% of success' chances i prefer, personnaly, reconsiderer carefully my strategy. I have no fear to throw away 10 bucks in a lottery, but few thousands bucks, one week at least of vacation and all the tiredness and NEGATIVE EMOTIONS --> i would look at it CAREFULLY.

The long road of the international marriage finishes when :
1/ you don't have any money to play
2/ you don't have any time to play
3/ you don't have any energy to play (burn out, too much negatives emotions)
THE last one is the more dangerous. For the first two ones you can find perhaps a solution, for the last one NEVER. And the last one is conditionned by your sense of your own value. It's not only harmful for you to have a low value but girls will have no interest in you too !!!

In a VO you are starting with a lower V mandatory (we don't speak here about a second meeting. Here you haven't yet met the girl) because you are investing too much in relation to the girl is doing for you.

I'm pretty sure that many guys are going in flames because they don't control their time, they don't control their meeting (of course you cannot control everything, i just want to mean you must stick on results and walk away if results are non satisfying after a deadline, YOU MUST PUT A DEADLINE, YOU ARE NOT PLAYING PACKMAN, it's your life, and your life is short)

The only way for a VO man to stay, as possible, in control is to choice big cities and or select the ones where good agencies are located. So anytime it will be possible to get a REAL and OPERATIONAL backup (not the sort of backup you use in IT network, feeling secure because you have one and finally when the system crashes suddenly you realize that your backup is just BS, because it doesn't work). 

I have to say guys that is very tempting to answer or write to many beauties or interesting (seems to be) ladies, but at the end when you see the number of scammer or prodater in the circuit you begin to have no regret to use a strategy style VM, because you don't know who is behind the screen.
I remember in the beginning, i was in correspondance with a scammer, and of course and fortunately i identify him after few correspondances as a not genuine person, but i had made some plans for a very far location in Russia with many hours of plane and many hours of train. Today i try to imagine myself in such travel to meet a fake person, what would have been my value ? Low, guys, really low, not the sort of things you brag about during the coffee with your colleagues. And however, it happens every day and everywhere in FSU.

[LAman]

Patagonie...I don't think any equations or quantum physics or any percentages really matter when dealing with feelings, emotions, love, hopes and dreams. It will never work more than once
like math. It is an ever changing chase, everyday can be a new thought. I try not to keep score, just that I am happy and develop new experiences.
I read with interest about how long this journey can be. It can be as short as a few months and as long as forever and you never have total control. You can go in a certain direction but to me luck is the overriding criteria.....all things must come together at same time. It reminds me of a friend that married a girl from sumy. Had she missed the bus( when ran 10 minutes late), my friend would have never met her and who knows where he would be now. We all make choices that we think are best, sometimes they turn out right sometimes not. I don't know how long I will be on this journey but I have enjoyed the learning experience and have no regrets. Maybe my future is without a partner but with many friends......

[The Natural]

Patagonie, you're a good guy and I like you, but in my opinion you analyze too much. If I were to do that high level analyzing, I would be mentally exhausted by the time I got to the part of meeting the hopefuls. But as you said, we are different and must operate in a way that is comfortable for our particular personality.
 
As you know, I'm going on a VO journey soon. I have no back-up. I choose to have faith in the girl I'm going to meet as well as in myself. But I will have back-up plans when it comes to money. A fistful of Dollars, Euros and Kroner, as well as plastic and perhaps a little gold coin. What I dread the most of such a trip would be to find myself without money for whatever reason.

[Faux Pas]

As you know, I'm going on a VO journey soon. I have no back-up. I choose to have faith in the girl I'm going to meet as well as in myself. But I will have back-up plans when it comes to money. A fistful of Dollars, Euros and Kroner, as well as plastic and perhaps a little gold coin. What I dread the most of such a trip would be to find myself without money for whatever reason.

Roy,


I think there is a lot to be said about your approach. Many will declare to have back up plans no matter what, which, I also think is a good idea. However those plans do not necessarily need to be more women. WOVO is a risky proposition for many and I've never really understood why. Sure sometimes even the best chemistry online/phone/skype can turn instantly flat in person. That can and does happen to many. One can reduce those chances significantly IMO if they simply do their due diligence prior to making arrangements and the trip.


Learn the woman, know the woman having spent many hours involved in conversations about everything under the sun. All of this happening away from an agency in one on one time. If a translator is required, use one independent of the agency. Exit the agency as soon as humanly possible and well before you've gotten on that plane the first time.


My back up plan on my first WOVO was nothing but the phone number and web address of an agency in the same city. I really had no sense that I would need it and I didn't. If my meeting had went South I don't think I would have used it any way. I found the city I was in was easy enough to wing it and just have a good time. Some guys don't take that approach and that's fine. My point here is, learn the lady before you go. If you have any doubts at any time that she won't go for you or you go for her, simply don't go. Wait until you "know" your chances are 75% chance of success. The 3 month rule is a good standard but, that is all it is, a standard rule of thumb.

[Patagonie]

Patagonie...I don't think any equations or quantum physics or any percentages really matter when dealing with feelings, emotions, love, hopes and dreams. It will never work more than once
like math. It is an ever changing chase, everyday can be a new thought. I try not to keep score, just that I am happy and develop new experiences.
I read with interest about how long this journey can be. It can be as short as a few months and as long as forever and you never have total control. You can go in a certain direction but to me luck is the overriding criteria.....all things must come together at same time. It reminds me of a friend that married a girl from sumy. Had she missed the bus( when ran 10 minutes late), my friend would have never met her and who knows where he would be now. We all make choices that we think are best, sometimes they turn out right sometimes not. I don't know how long I will be on this journey but I have enjoyed the learning experience and have no regrets. Maybe my future is without a partner but with many friends......

I like your post
"I don't know how long I will be on this journey but I have enjoyed the learning experience and have no regrets. Maybe my future is without a partner but with many friends......" I'm proud of my adventure, and i'm  having great satisfaction of what is happening.
 
  Sometimes you are living bad experience and sometimes it's very exciting. I can say that i'm enjoying my travels, and it give me a lot of wealth. More important today i hope to success but perhaps not, but the more important is to try it, so i would have no regrets later, with or without having reached my goal.

[The Natural]

Learn the woman, know the woman having spent many hours involved in conversations about everything under the sun. All of this happening away from an agency in one on one time. If a translator is required, use one independent of the agency. Exit the agency as soon as humanly possible and well before you've gotten on that plane the first time.

Yes, I have naturally spent many hours talking with her and making sure she's the real thing, and she is. There's many little things that tell me so. We moved out from the agency which is extremely easy to do from RBrides. We talk on Skype every night for two hours, except when I have work.
 
Your advice here is sound, as always FP.

[Patagonie]

Patagonie, you're a good guy and I like you, but in my opinion you analyze too much. If I were to do that high level analyzing, I would be mentally exhausted by the time I got to the part of meeting the hopefuls. But as you said, we are different and must operate in a way that is comfortable for our particular personality.
 
As you know, I'm going on a VO journey soon. I have no back-up. I choose to have faith in the girl I'm going to meet as well as in myself. But I will have back-up plans when it comes to money. A fistful of Dollars, Euros and Kroner, as well as plastic and perhaps a little gold coin. What I dread the most of such a trip would be to find myself without money for whatever reason.

 I think you are going to make a high score and that you are not so far from the 75% (see FP post). I think now it's just a question for you of time,  checking physical attraction (both), the values, and hoping love wil raise shared by both. I cross my fingers for you buddy.

[The Natural]

 I think you are going to make a high score and that you are not so far from the 75% (see FP post). I think now it's just a question for you of time,  checking physical attraction (both), the values, and hoping love wil raise shared by both. I cross my fingers for you buddy.

Thanks man. I really didn't want to steal your thunder here, so to speak 
 
Hope things work out for you too real soon. I suppose the deadline you set for the girls is approaching? Any news or other plans for you lately Pat?

[Patagonie]

Thanks man. I really didn't want to steal your thunder here, so to speak 
 
Hope things work out for you too real soon. I suppose the deadline you set for the girls is approaching? Any news or other plans for you lately Pat?

Yes i have a deadline.
 I want to finish here at first the analysis i've started. Don't worry for me i don't have any headache about this  as i'm trained for a long time for such things. It's just "my contribution to the forum", try to bring something for guys (or newbies rather). Just like a loan for all i've found here, i want "to give back".
 
Now yes we are near of the deadline and i think i'm going to  open a new topic, second edition of this first one "Operation White Panther, 2nd edition".
 
I have any news from the girl. So it's simple.
No news, new adventure for the first two weeks of july.
 If i've news and if she is available in the first two weeks of july --> try to spend some vacation together
If she gives some news but if she is not available in july i'm going to make a secret travel anyways by my own. She don't deserve the exclusivity for the moment. She needs to earn it, time will show.
 
But really it's a bet and i have no idea of what will happen. I gave her too much interest i'm sure. But a lot of odds are above this problematic. Anyways the best thing i've done had been to stop all sms. I sent 4 i think and try to call one time, it's 2 sms wasted.
 
I've tried  to cross the bridge towards a building relation, using the pattern adult and child as described in transactionnal analysis. I know thAt a lot of FSU girls are capable to do it, and i think it's really worthly for both. She has missed to play her duty for the moment.

[Kuna]

Yes i have a deadline.
 I want to finish here at first the analysis i've started. Don't worry for me i don't have any headache about this  as i'm trained for a long time for such things. It's just "my contribution to the forum", try to bring something for guys (or newbies rather). Just like a loan for all i've found here, i want "to give back".
 
Now yes we are near of the deadline and i think i'm going to  open a new topic, second edition of this first one "Operation White Panther, 2nd edition".
 
I have any news from the girl. So it's simple.
No news, new adventure for the first two weeks of july.
 If i've news and if she is available in the first two weeks of july --> try to spend some vacation together
If she gives some news but if she is not available in july i'm going to make a secret travel anyways by my own. She don't deserve the exclusivity for the moment. She needs to earn it, time will show.
 
But really it's a bet and i have no idea of what will happen. I gave her too much interest i'm sure. But a lot of odds are above this problematic. Anyways the best thing i've done had been to stop all sms. I sent 4 i think and try to call one time, it's 2 sms wasted.
 
I've tried  to cross the bridge towards a building relation, using the pattern adult and child as described in transactionnal analysis. I know thAt a lot of FSU girls are capable to do it, and i think it's really worthly for both. She has missed to play her duty for the moment.

Pat,

I know you probably won't take this advice because most men who "train" in the art of seduction and "claim" to have "game" get so obsessed with the potential that they completely miss the reality....  but, I've got to say:
Dump all of the artificial learnings you've been "trained in" and just be sincere and genuine.

I promise you,  genuine women are just looking for genuine men, and they can smell the tricks a mile off.

It doesn't mean that some men don't naturally act in a way that DOES attract certain types of women...  but I don't believe this is a learned behaviour.

I always wonder what would happen if one of these "trained men" ever did snag the girl of their dreams and then she works out he never did find that second edition of the book which teaches him how to continue being "this man" forever.

Something freaked your runaway bride out.  By all accounts that first meeting went exactly the way you'd been trained for it to go.  Maybe if you'd toned it down she would have stuck around.


Not trying to offend...  but I've seen this a lot with guys I know and I've not yet seen one of them find "true love" yet.

[Patagonie]

Pat,

I know you probably won't take this advice because most men who "train" in the art of seduction and "claim" to have "game" get so obsessed with the potential that they completely miss the reality....  but, I've got to say:
Dump all of the artificial learnings you've been "trained in" and just be sincere and genuine.

I promise you,  genuine women are just looking for genuine men, and they can smell the tricks a mile off.

It doesn't mean that some men don't naturally act in a way that DOES attract certain types of women...  but I don't believe this is a learned behaviour.

I always wonder what would happen if one of these "trained men" ever did snag the girl of their dreams and then she works out he never did find that second edition of the book which teaches him how to continue being "this man" forever.

Something freaked your runaway bride out.  By all accounts that first meeting went exactly the way you'd been trained for it to go.  Maybe if you'd toned it down she would have stuck around.


Not trying to offend...  but I've seen this a lot with guys I know and I've not yet seen one of them find "true love" yet.

dear Kuna you are making interesting posts which let a lot of place for an arguing discussion.
I think you've missed some previous posts i've written about the topic (game, why seduction is not a can of paint to summarize? And if it's true so your  post is relevant, to make short).

So i'm pasting the post which shows, in my opinion, a good picture of what i think about the Game : (i would add others comments on a following post)

Few man get laid often
An a lot a few

These man are natural
Those who are not natural (or not really)  had work a lot
 
There a mistery around this attraction
The master of them are called PUA
Game is the name of this skill
Game is mastered for the very first meeting to few meetings. It doesn't help really in the long term relationship.

Real or false PUA, and all specialized forum deliver learning and informations to a lot of potential interested people (since 14 to ??).
Theory and practice are (for those who are not the natural PUA and for all who want to enhance theirs skill) the two roads to go. But learning without practice is totally ineffective.
Learning and practicing is a hard way. Many years are normally required.

Game add not only worth with woman, but also at work and with all social relationship in general. It's a way to modify, change, and have a better life, as powerful as psychoterapy.

About all who are interested fery vew will become PUA. A lot will improve their life anyways. A few will learn anything and will do counterproductives things.

Is the game raise the attraction ? Does the game allows you to date more women ? Yes. Do you have more pleasure with women (i don't speak about sex !) ? Yes. For all who had work, no doubt about results.

Does a woman detects a "good" player ? No. So believe, girls, that you will recognize him is a lie or a fairy tale to protect your proud.   Why ? Because he is not really playing, HE IS. He is what he had become : a worthly man.

After the player can choice, have a funny quarter of hour with her and dump her.
Share one hour with her and gets her phone number and dump her.
Spend one evening with her and return at home and dump her.
Spend a second evening with her and kiss and hugh her and dump her.
Make an ONS, the third evening (or the first evening) and dump her, OR NOT DUMP HER
And for the proud of all woman here, and because it's absolutely true, at each step of the process the girl CAN also dump the man, probably less than an ordinary guy but it happens : it's better to be HONEST about the reality of the field.
and the guy can begin after few weeks or few months a TRUE and REAL relationship oriented in the long term. Perhaps during this beginning as he is experienced he will do that a lot of AW do : he will keep all the same a lot of contacts like they usually do.

SO remember each big love story begins by one night in a bed (if you prefer in the forest or in a garage it's your problem)

So game is exactly like martial arts : you can fight on the car park of the disco each saturday night (f**ck few times per week --> ONS)
OR
you can lead your life to change your soul, your body, your food habits , have the right thinking, share your knolewdege and advice and help people in the tojo. --> As you take control of yourself and responsability of what you do, and as you meet a lot of girls with success you can choice the GOOD one, and be the GOOD one for her too.
 Exemple rather than say this girl is a bitch (she get laid with you neighbour, the hell's angel with the Harley) it's perhaps better to analyse your behavior, and try to understand what you did stupid. Exemple of stupids things wich decrease interest of any AW girls : calling her all the time in firsts days, doing always what she wants and with no delay, asking her what she want to do all time, asking her if he can leave her trouser before sex. Believe me, i had listening a lot of girls in my life, and they had met at least one time in their life this sort of guy acting in this way.


So it's important to understand game is a tool, who enhance forgotten skills. Your goal is what you aim. TBB aims a marriage relation. Me the same, and many guys here, on RWD, too. As i said game helps to enhance the worthy of the men in the few firsts meetings. In the marriage course, and as there are many cultural differences between AW and RW a lot of things are important too. I agree.

Now i would advice who don't know nothing about game and have only opinions, to search information and spend at least few weeks, and preferentially few months AND after they will express themself. Like searching a eastern/western partner it's a complicated, wiser, atypical and disturbing topic, too complicated to summarize in game = bad, game = ons.

Patagonie

[Patagonie]

Kuna, perhaps i'm wrong but your post lets me think that you are not entered too deeply in the Game, i mean that you have not reached all the facets, all components which enhance really a life, not the spiritual part, the whole bunch of efforts you have made on you, the daily improvement you can quickly see in your life and how many more interesting people you can have a relation with, and why it's a key to understand the huge failure of male/female relations in the west.
About the moral it's not the Game which is immoral, it's what you are doing with it.
What lets me think this (in the west ):
" I promise you,  genuine women are just looking for genuine men, and they can smell the tricks a mile off."
This is the first think who shocks me, it is absolutely false. They absolutely not smell the tricks because Game is absolutely and totally anchored with 2000 years of male/female interaction.

It doesn't mean that some men don't naturally act in a way that DOES attract certain types of women...  but I don't believe this is a learned behaviour.
The best is when there is no learned behaviour, but just a  "new" behavior wich replaces the new one (replaces the typical AFC demeanor). WE ARE TALKING from the pickup to the third or fourth meeting : NO MORE.

I always wonder what would happen if one of these "trained men" ever did snag the girl of their dreams and then she works out he never did find that second edition of the book which teaches him how to continue being "this man" forever.
If a guy is buying his seduction from a can of painting for sure he will not have the balls and the behavior to continue being "this man" forever. I agree.
Something freaked your runaway bride out.  By all accounts that first meeting went exactly the way you'd been trained for it to go.  Maybe if you'd toned it down she would have stuck around.
I think the problem is above the dating or the following communication. And if it has been i think quite the opposite, showing my genuiness by giving her too much interest had been not rewarding. For my genuine demeanor i have not been rewarded, it's the conclusion.
But really i think the key is more about she had had an other appointement in Moscow, with a guy she got acquainted for surely a longer time than me.

With my best friend we have analysed this :
1/ minus : why a 3 weeks scheduled in Moscow ? Too long, and when the sister will see her mother who lives in Dnepropetrovsk, do you imagine a sister, living so far, staying in Moscow, and not seing her mother ? There is something strange
2/ plus : Why a WM would go to Moscow ? He needs visa, Ukraine is more simple, and anyways it's better to go to Crimea in june, in Turkey, in Egypts ..... When you are in relation with a lady, she likes to travel. Or perhaps it's a russian man or a local one.

Without any more information for the moment... Don't  forget my deadline is not over for the moment, she is always in the delay.

[Kuna]

Kuna, perhaps i'm wrong but your post lets me think that you are not entered too deeply in the Game, i mean that you have not reached all the facets, all components which enhance really a life, not the spiritual part, the whole bunch of efforts you have made on you, the daily improvement you can quickly see in your life and how many more interesting people you can have a relation with, and why it's a key to understand the huge failure of male/female relations in the west.

Pat,  I never needed "The Game".  I learned about it in a very strange way from some one who also had this "new behaviour"...  but the only way he found what he was looking for was realising (I had to break it to him) that being himself - natural - comfortable - confident - strong - balanced - and most of all genuine, was the best way to catch a hottie!   

" I promise you,  genuine women are just looking for genuine men, and they can smell the tricks a mile off."
This is the first think who shocks me, it is absolutely false. They absolutely not smell the tricks because Game is absolutely and totally anchored with 2000 years of male/female interaction.

If you practice for the next 2000 years your "game" might he so fluent it almost appears natural...  until then,  smart women will always detect the tricks.  Women aren't stupid, and they are far more intuitive than men give them credit for.

I am sorry - but you are wrong.

It doesn't mean that some men don't naturally act in a way that DOES attract certain types of women...  but I don't believe this is a learned behaviour.
The best is when there is no learned behaviour, but just a  "new" behavior which replaces the new one (replaces the typical AFC demeanor). WE ARE TALKING from the pickup to the third or fourth meeting : NO MORE.
 

If you are learning how to manufacture this "new" behaviour - it's learned behaviour.  Women can smell it - and at times they may not be able to work out why they feel uncomfortable around players who practice what is in the book...  but they are still uncomfortable.

Something freaked your runaway bride out.  By all accounts that first meeting went exactly the way you'd been trained for it to go.  Maybe if you'd toned it down she would have stuck around.
I think the problem is above the dating or the following communication. And if it has been i think quite the opposite, showing my genuiness by giving her too much interest had been not rewarding. For my genuine demeanor i have not been rewarded, it's the conclusion.
 But really i think the key is more about she had had an other appointement in Moscow, with a guy she got acquainted for surely a longer time than me.
 

 Showing too much interest is not about being genuine...  it makes women sense you are desperate - even if you are just being too eager. 

... and come on - you're into "The Game"...  you know all about "negging"...  Where is your game (when it is not a learned behaviour - you claim it's a new behaviour") when you're not negging her....

btw... I don't think negging works as such,  because when most men who learn this and practice it just sound insulting! Women don't like being insulted.

One final thing on this... and PLEASE don't feel like I'm bashing you - I'm just trying to snap you out of it and trying to help...  but... 

You've already come up with an excuse about a new boyfriend being the reason why she didn't respond to your repeated SMS's and phone call(s).  If you really had this "new behaviour" working so naturally, you wouldn't be making excuses for the loss...  and you wouldn't have been chasing her like a schoolboy.

Be calm Pat...  enjoy the experience... just brush off all the silliness and let the real Pat come out.  You will find women who appreciate it and won't need a second SMS before responding to you.

With my best friend we have analysed this :
 1/ minus : why a 3 weeks scheduled in Moscow ? Too long, and when the sister will see her mother who lives in Dnepropetrovsk, do you imagine a sister, living so far, staying in Moscow, and not seing her mother ? There is something strange
 

Yes, I believe this totally.  My wife is from Dnepropetrovsk and her sister lives in Moscow.  Her sister would NEVER go back to Dnepropetrovsk unless absolutely necessary because she thinks like many Muscovites now.

Actually,  my MIL lives in Moscow too...  and even she thinks like a Muscovite - which drives my wife nuts!

In short... let me explain this to you...

My BIL is wealthy,  but above all he is a "True Moscow Man" (he proclaimed this to me with such pride one day).

In his mind there really is a pecking order:

1. Moscow is the greatest city on earth and old Moscow families are the best people on earth. 
2. Next comes St Pete people, and;
3. Then the rest of Russia...
4. But then it gets confusing because "Ukraine is rubbish bin Kuna, rubbish bin - but Ukraine is better than USA. Kuna, strange but true, this is my thinking. Even this rubbish bin is better than USA."

I HAD to ask the question,  "[INSERT HIS NAME HERE], what do you think of Australians,  where do we fit?"

He was puzzled for half a second and then he looked at me very seriously and said, "You married to our family now Kuna,  you are my family,  you are like real Moscow man too now." and then with a big smile on his face,  "Just from this strange place with kangaroo."

So yes,  I do believe that if her sister is in a similar frame of mind as my SIL then she would rarely EVER go back to Ukraine.
 
by the way... you can't be sure she's even in Moscow can you???  She may have used Moscow like neo's date used the three year old child when he met her in Kharkov...

As direct as RW may be some times they won't always tell the truth if they are trying to avoid someone.

2/ plus : Why a WM would go to Moscow ? He needs visa, Ukraine is more simple, and anyways it's better to go to Crimea in june, in Turkey, in Egypts ..... When you are in relation with a lady, she likes to travel. Or perhaps it's a russian man or a local one.
 

You've create this excuse that your runaway bride is meeting a WM in Moscow...  crazy thinking...  but FWIW there are plenty of reasons why a WM would want to go to Moscow.  It is a wonderful city... there's so much to do... so much to see...  and I would go back without reservation at the very next opportunity no matter how much the visa was.

Pat,  she's not in Moscow with another man... she just didn't feel the same for you that you felt for her.  Even if she was with someone else there would be a spare moment to send the briefest sms to keep the fire burning.  I am only telling you the truth,  she's not responding because she's not interested.

btw...  even when you find "the one" do yourself a favour and spend most of your time with her in her city.  There is a lifetime of opportunities to travel to other locations - especially as you are in Europe.  A holiday during courting is OK,  but nothing will equal spending time with her in her city.
 
 

Without any more information for the moment... Don't  forget my deadline is not over for the moment, she is always in the delay.
 

I'm not sure what you mean by this but I've read in another post that you intend doing another trip soon - without her in your plans - but if she does contact you then you can still catch up???

Pat,  your "new behaviour" (the Game) is not as natural as you want to think it is.  Pat,  if you have even had an inkling that she is with another man the last thing you should be thinking of is ever meeting up with her again. Where is your pride?

Men with real power to date the hottest women don't care when one does not "happen"... they know there is a better one just around the corner.

I sincerely wish you all the best.
 
 
 
 

[Patagonie]

Pat,  I never needed "The Game".  I learned about it in a very strange way from some one who also had this "new behaviour"...  but the only way he found what he was looking for was realising (I had to break it to him) that being himself - natural - comfortable - confident - strong - balanced - and most of all genuine, was the best way to catch a hottie!    n.n.

Good you are describing exactly how a player is : being himself - natural - comfortable - confident - strong - balanced - and most of all genuine (This last one is also called congruence)

If you practice for the next 2000 years your "game" might he so fluent it almost appears natural...  until then,  smart women will always detect the tricks.  Women aren't stupid, and they are far more intuitive than men give them credit for.

I am sorry - but you are wrong.

Here i was having a doubt, but now i'm sure that you don't know shit, or almost shit.

I
If you are learning how to manufacture this "new" behaviour - it's learned behaviour.  Women can smell it - and at times they may not be able to work out why they feel uncomfortable around players who practice what is in the book...  but they are still uncomfortable..

See my comment above.

 Showing too much interest is not about being genuine...  it makes women sense you are desperate - even if you are just being too eager.  .

I agree totally, it's a sort of behavior to avoid.

... and come on - you're into "The Game"...  you know all about "negging"...  Where is your game (when it is not a learned behaviour - you claim it's a new behaviour") when you're not negging her.....

I think that you miss something important i don't pratice neg. Here the community disagrees with the american theory and i technicaly don't practice it. And in the trip i don't think you can show a moment when i'm negging a women (provided that you know exactly what a neg is)

btw... I don't think negging works as such,  because when most men who learn this and practice it just sound insulting! Women don't like being insulted..

It seems that it can help for the US hotties, but in my opinion not,  see my comment above

One final thing on this... and PLEASE don't feel like I'm bashing you - I'm just trying to snap you out of it and trying to help...  but...  .

I begin to think for the moment that you have a superficial reading of what i'm saying, but of course my english language is perhaps not the best one and sometimes it can lets some lack of understanding.

You've already come up with an excuse about a new boyfriend being the reason why she didn't respond to your repeated SMS's and phone call(s).  If you really had this "new behaviour" working so naturally, you wouldn't be making excuses for the loss...  and you wouldn't have been chasing her like a schoolboy..

Coming with an excuse ? It's a heavy probability which can explain that she is no longer interested by me.
I will deceive you i'm not a robot, and i had really like my time with the girl i've met in Dnepropetrovsk for my last meeting. I managed more and more with my internal emotionnal state, and also you have to protect you. It's obvious that you are focusing about the game and not having understand the whole figure..
 

Be calm Pat...  enjoy the experience... just brush off all the silliness and let the real Pat come out.  You will find women who appreciate it and won't need a second SMS before responding to you..

Yes you are right, in a "genuine" relation you are waiting an answer, a non balanced relation never works. About the real Pat, he is writing now.

Yes, I believe this totally.  My wife is from Dnepropetrovsk and her sister lives in Moscow.  Her sister would NEVER go back to Dnepropetrovsk unless absolutely necessary because she thinks like many Muscovites now.


Perhaps i was not clear but her sister is not from Moscow, she lives in country very far from Russia. So all you are explaining below, in my opinion, even if it's valuables informations, and i thank you, is irrelevant..


Actually,  my MIL lives in Moscow too...  and even she thinks like a Muscovite - which drives my wife nuts!

In short... let me explain this to you...

My BIL is wealthy,  but above all he is a "True Moscow Man" (he proclaimed this to me with such pride one day).

In his mind there really is a pecking order:

1. Moscow is the greatest city on earth and old Moscow families are the best people on earth. 
2. Next comes St Pete people, and;
3. Then the rest of Russia...
4. But then it gets confusing because "Ukraine is rubbish bin Kuna, rubbish bin - but Ukraine is better than USA. Kuna, strange but true, this is my thinking. Even this rubbish bin is better than USA."

I HAD to ask the question,  "[INSERT HIS NAME HERE], what do you think of Australians,  where do we fit?"

He was puzzled for half a second and then he looked at me very seriously and said, "You married to our family now Kuna,  you are my family,  you are like real Moscow man too now." and then with a big smile on his face,  "Just from this strange place with kangaroo."

So yes,  I do believe that if her sister is in a similar frame of mind as my SIL then she would rarely EVER go back to Ukraine.
 
by the way... you can't be sure she's even in Moscow can you???  She may have used Moscow like neo's date used the three year old child when he met her in Kharkov....

You are right it's just a supposition.

As direct as RW may be some times they won't always tell the truth if they are trying to avoid someone..

I think for the moment i'm in a more confor

You've create this excuse that your runaway bride is meeting a WM in Moscow...  crazy thinking...  but FWIW there are plenty of reasons why a WM would want to go to Moscow.  It is a wonderful city... there's so much to do... so much to see...  and I would go back without reservation at the very next opportunity no matter how much the visa was.

Pat,  she's not in Moscow with another man... she just didn't feel the same for you that you felt for her.  Even if she was with someone else there would be a spare moment to send the briefest sms to keep the fire burning.  I am only telling you the truth,  she's not responding because she's not interested...

You are right, it's obvious, it's the logical conclusion.
And i've begun to open my eyes just few days after her departure of course. A lot of guys here had crossed their fingers for me but everybody knows that after so many days now, and without any news.... 
 

btw...  even when you find "the one" do yourself a favour and spend most of your time with her in her city.  There is a lifetime of opportunities to travel to other locations - especially as you are in Europe.  A holiday during courting is OK,  but nothing will equal spending time with her in her city..

I agree totally, it's better to spend time with her in her city, for many reasons that it is not needed to detail
 
 
I'm not sure what you mean by this but I've read in another post that you intend doing another trip soon - without her in your plans - but if she does contact you then you can still catch up???

Pat,  your "new behaviour" (the Game) is not as natural as you want to think it is.  Pat,  if you have even had an inkling that she is with another man the last thing you should be thinking of is ever meeting up with her again. Where is your pride ?

This not a question of pride, this a question of intelligence. You cannot score against a guy with who for example she had already spent two vacations. Because she has invested a lot of time, so even if she likes you she will continue in the other relation. A girl will not drop a relation for an other without knowing that you are a good suitor. To give you (her and you) some chances you must let her time to know you. And i'm not enough naïve to believe this one is lost alone at home spending her whole time seing th TV

Men with real power to date the hottest women don't care when one does not "happen"... they know there is a better one just around the corner.?

Men with real power are dating  hottest women and shift their attention as soon as something does'nt happen surely. But the human beings has a different meaning of the word soon wich can have in time different length. It seems to be that, as i'm aiming a marriage, a LTR, i'm giving more place to soon when an affair is promising. For what i know about myself, i consider it's important to manage emotionnaly disappointement and let time to vanish, so of course, after you find a better one around the corner, because you are clear
 
 

[GQBlues]

.....So i'm pasting the post which shows, in my opinion, a good picture of what i think about the Game : (i would add others comments on a following post)

Few man get laid often
An a lot a few

These man are natural
Those who are not natural (or not really)  had work a lot
 
There a mistery around this attraction
The master of them are called PUA
Game is the name of this skill
Game is mastered for the very first meeting to few meetings. It doesn't help really in the long term relationship....

Dang! Patagonie! You must've ordered the same material from the same source (or attended the same seminar) as another member here who wrote about this stuff in this very site not too long ago...
 
LOL, if there really is a market for this type of material, I must say hooray for the author! The wealth he'll amassed alone should be enough to gitdemwimmen. That's the Game in itself, I would think..fast don't lie!
 
OTOH, it's a pretty sad state of affairs for the many on the other side of the fence it seems...but at least there's much to look forward to these days I gather...
 
Anyway, I haven't read the entire thread but I do hope things work out great for you!
 
Above all else, have a great time!
 

[Kuna]

I'm sorry Pat... I tried to help, but you don't understand.

I hope you don't have too many more failed trips to FSU before you realise you're on the wrong path.

Good luck.