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Author Topic: Operation White Panther  (Read 364424 times)

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Offline ML

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Re: Operation White Panther
« Reply #325 on: July 14, 2011, 08:39:29 PM »

Why? Generally, a woman who falls for you will do it within the first minute. I can't see why a woman who is smitten would play coy no matter how many foreigners she has met or how often or how long she has lived abroad   . . . .

I have seen this stated often, but I am not so sure about it.

I can remember instances with two women.  One was somewhat 'standoffish' for almost the entire first date (first 4 hours or so of it).  Then, I did something (won't say what) and she melted into me.

The second was fairly 'standoffish' for almost 3 dates.  I only went on the latter 2 with her because I had nothing else to do and didn't want to be by myself.  She also turned into a real romantic and we are still 'together.'  So go figure.
A beautiful woman is pleasant to look at, but it is easier to live with a pleasant acting one.

Offline Patagonie

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Re: Operation White Panther
« Reply #326 on: July 15, 2011, 09:16:27 AM »

Good report so far Patagonie. Keep it coming and if and when you get a chance, some good photos will be stupendous!. Not of inanimate objects or statue of Lenin standing up, Lenin holding a book, Lenin up on a horse...but you know, good 'live' photos to accompany the players in the story.. ;)
:ROFL: :ROFL:
I think i go far in description and what about i think. The problem of privates photos is that they are .....  private. I mean, showing a face is for me something really tricky. Question of respect. I can perhaps show their back  :ROFL:
Tank you for your support.
"Je glissais through the paper wall, an angel in the hand, s taboy. I lay on the floor, surgi des chants de Maldoror, je mix l'intégrale de mes nuits de crystal, i belong to the festival.

Offline Patagonie

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Re: Operation White Panther
« Reply #327 on: July 15, 2011, 09:20:35 AM »
or if she doesn't like him and you should take her first criticism and rebukes seriously as she doesn't play any game at all. Also beware of the folding couches  ;D

http://www.reuters.com/article/2008/07/09/us-couch-idUSL0919437820080709
Yes we can say that they doesn't play any games when it's time to rebuke the man.
OlgaH, i never had a folding couch so i can escape by any direction (except wall side).
 :P 8)
"Je glissais through the paper wall, an angel in the hand, s taboy. I lay on the floor, surgi des chants de Maldoror, je mix l'intégrale de mes nuits de crystal, i belong to the festival.

Offline Patagonie

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Re: Operation White Panther
« Reply #328 on: July 15, 2011, 09:45:42 AM »

Why? Generally, a woman who falls for you will do it within the first minute. I can't see why a woman who is smitten would play coy no matter how many foreigners she has met or how often or how long she has lived abroad  ::)  My wife's father lives in Germany, she visited Germany and Europe many times and of course met many men (and women and children) when in Germany. I still knew the first date even if she had spend close to two years total in Europe and was very beautiful  :-X
We are going in a huge topic, i'm afraid of. You are using a single example whereas i speak in general manner.
To make short, women in the west start slowly in a relationship, quite the opposite of men.

More time she (FSU woman) spends in international dating and more  prone she will to play the hard to get game.
Any time her ego is boosted (local social events, travels outside FSU, tons of meeting with foreigners) and more prone she will be to play hard to get (i don't say prouder she will be, i said ego).
What is the main difference between FSU women and western women ?????
Tell me guys : EGO. Why western  big ass full of fat think they are stars ? EGO. Quite the contrary with FSU women.
Push a FSU go along the western life (many guys chasing few women) and EGO will increase. So it's why western chicks, and in particular the cute women, play hard to get.
INDEPENDANTLY of her personnality and the time needed to win the woman (the theory says in average eights hours in western standards)
Tell me why divorced fsu girls in Europe and USA want an age gap really less important than in FSU ? Tell me fellows, because they understood their new value, their ego have raised.
The problem is that we have chicks here  who think that  they are diamonds whereas they are not even a 7, with nothing special. And they believe they are specials.
It's why masters (pua) have created the neg. The neg is only done to decrease the ego of such gals (9 category in general, but depends also of the EGO of the girl). The game is done to raise your value and decrease her in the first beginning of the pick up.
Pat. I have a lot to say, probably episode 2. Sincerely.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 09:58:13 AM by Patagonie »
"Je glissais through the paper wall, an angel in the hand, s taboy. I lay on the floor, surgi des chants de Maldoror, je mix l'intégrale de mes nuits de crystal, i belong to the festival.

Offline Misha

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Re: Operation White Panther
« Reply #329 on: July 15, 2011, 09:57:04 AM »
I have seen this stated often, but I am not so sure about it.

I can remember instances with two women.  One was somewhat 'standoffish' for almost the entire first date (first 4 hours or so of it).  Then, I did something (won't say what) and she melted into me.

The second was fairly 'standoffish' for almost 3 dates.  I only went on the latter 2 with her because I had nothing else to do and didn't want to be by myself.  She also turned into a real romantic and we are still 'together.'  So go figure.

Sometimes, from what I have observed, the feelings are there, but women do their best to repress them. Other times a woman may decide that a man is right for her without having fallen in love. Occasionally, it may happen a bit later. Personally, in my opinion and based solely on my lived experience that may not apply to everybody as there might be an exception somewhere (sorry, I have to satisfy the pedants), if a woman is not showing strong emotions or interest by the end of the third date, it is best to move on...

Offline Patagonie

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Re: Operation White Panther
« Reply #330 on: July 15, 2011, 10:55:42 AM »
Sometimes, from what I have observed, the feelings are there, but women do their best to repress them. Other times a woman may decide that a man is right for her without having fallen in love. Occasionally, it may happen a bit later. Personally, in my opinion and based solely on my lived experience that may not apply to everybody as there might be an exception somewhere (sorry, I have to satisfy the pedants), if a woman is not showing strong emotions or interest by the end of the third date, it is best to move on...
+1
"Je glissais through the paper wall, an angel in the hand, s taboy. I lay on the floor, surgi des chants de Maldoror, je mix l'intégrale de mes nuits de crystal, i belong to the festival.

Offline ML

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Re: Operation White Panther
« Reply #331 on: July 15, 2011, 03:47:29 PM »
Misha:  "Generally, a woman who falls for you will do it within the first minute."

ML then gives his experience.

New Misha: ". . . if a woman is not showing strong emotions or interest by the end of the third date, it is best to move on..."
A beautiful woman is pleasant to look at, but it is easier to live with a pleasant acting one.

Offline Misha

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Re: Operation White Panther
« Reply #332 on: July 15, 2011, 03:53:44 PM »
Misha:  "Generally, a woman who falls for you will do it within the first minute."

ML then gives his experience.

New Misha: ". . . if a woman is not showing strong emotions or interest by the end of the third date, it is best to move on..."


Yes, and that is why I used the word "Generally" in my post, and yes, I actually read other people's comments, think about them, and sometimes even come to agree with what they said, even changing my opinion from time to time on a given topic....


  :shock:
« Last Edit: July 15, 2011, 04:08:07 PM by Misha »

Offline Lily

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Re: Operation White Panther
« Reply #333 on: July 15, 2011, 04:21:10 PM »

Push a FSU go along the western life (many guys chasing few women) and EGO will increase. So it's why western chicks, and in particular the cute women, play hard to get.
INDEPENDANTLY of her personnality and the time needed to win the woman (the theory says in average eights hours in western standards)
Tell me why divorced fsu girls in Europe and USA want an age gap really less important than in FSU ? Tell me fellows, because they understood their new value, their ego have raised.
The problem is that we have chicks here  who think that  they are diamonds whereas they are not even a 7, with nothing special. And they believe they are specials.
 

Well, I am a single FSU woman in Canada, and not sure that I understand what you mean should happen to my ego. :) I see that I do have choices in men here. But as far as my being 'special' is concerned, I am still the same as I used to be all my life. What has changed in terms of dating, is the number of local men who might be interested in me. No additions to my 'value', in fact.
Da, da, Canada; Nyet, nyet, Soviet!

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Operation White Panther
« Reply #334 on: July 15, 2011, 11:50:32 PM »
Well, I am a single FSU woman in Canada, and not sure that I understand what you mean should happen to my ego. :) I see that I do have choices in men here. But as far as my being 'special' is concerned, I am still the same as I used to be all my life. What has changed in terms of dating, is the number of local men who might be interested in me. No additions to my 'value', in fact.

You are still the same - yes, as far as you are concerned, because obviously you believe that you have changed little over the years.  However, to the locals (whether in Toronto or further afield) you are still an exotic newcomer.  For that reason at least, assuming that you identify yourself as Russian, you will probably generate a little more interest than a Canadian woman of the same age and level of beauty who many men will pass up as "familiar."
 
As for the distances involved, think of those of us who have travelled from Australia or New Zealand to western Russia and Ukraine, or from the USA to central Siberia, to find our "dream woman" (or who have been disappointed when they meet her).  It makes your story of guys reluctant to travel all the way across Toronto (30 km?) seem extremely unlikely candidates for any "How far I went to meet my FSU wife" competition!  :cluebat:
 
As for "special" - you have travelled halfway around the world, leaving what sounds like a very interesting job (to me, anyway), to try to fulfil your own personal quest in a country where you knew nobody and spoke little of the language.  That you have mostly succeeded (your English is now great, and in a couple of years, maybe less, you will be a full member of the Canadian Bar) makes you a VERY special lady in my eyes.  What a shame that the local guys don't recognise such a quality jewel in their midst!  :flowers:
 
It would be nice to think that in a few months your status may change to "committed," all because some nice Canadian man actually followed through on his first impulse when seeing your photo.
 
My apologies Pat - didn't really mean to hijack the thread, but some women just don't recognise a good thing when they look in the mirror!  ;D

Offline Lily

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Re: Operation White Panther
« Reply #335 on: July 16, 2011, 05:47:50 AM »
Thank you so much Anotherkiwi for your kindness! The point of RW being 'exotic' for Americans might be interesting, though. My post was a reaction to the Pat's observation that RW change as soon as they start their lives in the West. Pat believes that this is because the dating dynamics shifts and their desirability change.On my part, I don't understand how multiple signs of attention from men can have any influence on the ego. And I am a RW in the West, I don't quite agree with Pat on this :)  although exceptions may happen.
Da, da, Canada; Nyet, nyet, Soviet!

Offline ML

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Re: Operation White Panther
« Reply #336 on: July 16, 2011, 05:54:57 PM »
On my part, I don't understand how multiple signs of attention from men can have any influence on the ego.

Lily, I can't believe you wrote such words. :o

I think it is quite common (and quite understandable why) that people (both men and women) do start feeling differently (whether we want to refer to ego or something else) when they start getting more attention from opposite gender.

Actually, most of us start thinking differently about ourself when we get attention from even one person.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 05:57:21 PM by ManLooking »
A beautiful woman is pleasant to look at, but it is easier to live with a pleasant acting one.

Offline Kuna

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Re: Operation White Panther
« Reply #337 on: July 16, 2011, 06:43:02 PM »
Lily, I can't believe you wrote such words. :o

I think it is quite common (and quite understandable why) that people (both men and women) do start feeling differently (whether we want to refer to ego or something else) when they start getting more attention from opposite gender.

Actually, most of us start thinking differently about ourself when we get attention from even one person.

You're assuming she is driven by ego in the first place.  I know many people so driven by logic that ego is well contained in their lives.

Different strokes for different folks.

There's no doubt many people (men and women) change when they immigrate but it doesn't mean their ego will grow exponentially just because they have more options.

Offline mies

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Re: Operation White Panther
« Reply #338 on: July 16, 2011, 07:27:10 PM »

Why? Generally, a woman who falls for you will do it within the first minute. I can't see why a woman who is smitten would play coy no matter how many foreigners she has met or how often or how long she has lived abroad  ::)  My wife's father lives in Germany, she visited Germany and Europe many times and of course met many men (and women and children) when in Germany. I still knew the first date even if she had spend close to two years total in Europe and was very beautiful  :-X

Misha, I will have to disagree with you on this one, especially if you are talking about WMVM international dating. Ask your wife the meaning of:
- быстрота нужна при ловле блох
- "Скоро только кошки родятся" (from the "12 chairs" book)

Showing within the first minute that she fell for a guy, while knowing that the guy is probably seeing 3-5 other women today might get a woman to bed with this guy, but not very likely will make her competitive with other 3-5 women and increase her chances for marrying this guy. Plus, keep in mind that not all women want to compete, some want to be "the only ones," want to see how this particular guy is serious about them, and whether they are his #1 on a list, or make sure that he does not have the lengthy list of ranked women, before they show him any sort of affection or strong interest.
What you may take for "woman being into you" can be common among ukrainian and russian women "politeness". It can mean something, or it can mean nothing.     



Offline Lily

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Re: Operation White Panther
« Reply #339 on: July 16, 2011, 07:28:29 PM »
Lily, I can't believe you wrote such words. :o

I think it is quite common (and quite understandable why) that people (both men and women) do start feeling differently (whether we want to refer to ego or something else) when they start getting more attention from opposite gender.

Actually, most of us start thinking differently about ourself when we get attention from even one person.

Feeling differently, yes. But how can we think differently about ourselves when we receive more attention from other people? We are still the same, not better and not worse, only the situation is now in our favor.
Da, da, Canada; Nyet, nyet, Soviet!

Offline mies

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Re: Operation White Panther
« Reply #340 on: July 16, 2011, 07:41:58 PM »
Feeling differently, yes. But how can we think differently about ourselves when we receive more attention from other people? We are still the same, not better and not worse, only the situation is now in our favor.

Watch this movie when you get a chance:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfUt8bN0zc0[/youtube]

 I think this is what ManLooking and Patagonie meant.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 07:45:22 PM by mies »

Offline Boethius

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Re: Operation White Panther
« Reply #341 on: July 16, 2011, 09:17:05 PM »
However, to the locals (whether in Toronto or further afield) you are still an exotic newcomer. 

Half of Toronto's population is foreign born, so foreigners are not particularly exotic there.

Sorry, Patagonie, for hijacking your thread.  I hope your trip is still going well, and I look forward to your posts on your continued success.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 05:55:14 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Misha

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Re: Operation White Panther
« Reply #342 on: July 16, 2011, 10:25:33 PM »
    Misha, I will have to disagree with you on this one, especially if you are talking about WMVM international dating. Ask your wife the meaning of:
    - быстрота нужна при ловле блох
    - "Скоро только кошки родятся" (from the "12 chairs" book)


    Why should I ask my wife, I am perfectly capable of reading Russian. The fact of the matter is that attraction is decided quite quickly and most often it is unconscious and we are processing information that we do not know we are gathering and without even knowing we are doing it. The BBC has a fascinating set of articles on the science of falling in love that I would recommend:


    A quote:
    Quote
    It can take between 90 seconds and 4 minutes to decide if we fancy someone. But this has little to do with your smooth-talking. As far as attraction goes, here's how we get the message:
    • 55% is through body language
    • 38% is the tone and speed of our voice[/size][/font][/color]
    • Only 7% is through what we say

    I have never timed how long it takes for a cat to give birth to kittens, but it would certainly take more than 90 seconds and perhaps even more than 4 minutes ;)


    This as described by the BBC matches my experience. Either attraction is there or it isn't and usually the falling in love stage happens quickly or it doesn't. Of course, it takes time for the falling in love phase to be replaced by a love that is more than hormonal.


    Quote
    Showing within the first minute that she fell for a guy, while knowing that the guy is probably seeing 3-5 other women today might get a woman to bed with this guy, but not very likely will make her competitive with other 3-5 women and increase her chances for marrying this guy.


    Sure, she can fake it, but generally if it is real, the man should hopefully be able to figure it out.


    Quote
    What you may take for "woman being into you" can be common among ukrainian and russian women "politeness". It can mean something, or it can mean nothing.   


    Personally, I spend more than enough time with Russians to know the difference between politeness and a "woman being into me." Of course, this does not apply to all men, but if a man is paying attention, he should learn how to quickly learn to identify important non-verbal cues that will guide him.


    PS - The Science of Love: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/love/index.shtml
    The Science of Flirting: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/love/flirting.shtml[/list]
    « Last Edit: July 16, 2011, 10:30:31 PM by Misha »

    Offline Anotherkiwi

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    Re: Operation White Panther
    « Reply #343 on: July 17, 2011, 03:29:22 AM »
    Half of Toronto's population is foreign born, so foreigners are not particularly exotic there.

    Thanks Boethius - I didn't know that.  However, a beautiful Russian woman should still stand out, shouldn't she?

    Offline Patagonie

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    Re: Operation White Panther
    « Reply #344 on: July 17, 2011, 05:22:27 AM »
    Thank you so much Anotherkiwi for your kindness! The point of RW being 'exotic' for Americans might be interesting, though. My post was a reaction to the Pat's observation that RW change as soon as they start their lives in the West. Pat believes that this is because the dating dynamics shifts and their desirability change.On my part, I don't understand how multiple signs of attention from men can have any influence on the ego. And I am a RW in the West, I don't quite agree with Pat on this :)  although exceptions may happen.

    Lily, when i'm saying that divorced FSU women in western countries have a general increase of ego, it's in general manner. They surely not reach their western counterparts.
    You, you don't have changed in yourself, this is worthly Lily, you are a worthly woman.  :flowers:
    You know some people, if we speak about money and social, who can keep roughly the same EGO, like Warren Buffet or Anthony Robbins.  Some never forgot where do they come from and some quickly forget who they have been.

    But you agree yourselve that you get more attention signs in the west from man. This is the potential and clear reason which explains the general trend ego boost for women living in the west.
    "Je glissais through the paper wall, an angel in the hand, s taboy. I lay on the floor, surgi des chants de Maldoror, je mix l'intégrale de mes nuits de crystal, i belong to the festival.

    Offline Patagonie

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    Re: Operation White Panther
    « Reply #345 on: July 17, 2011, 05:28:33 AM »
    Thank you so much Anotherkiwi for your kindness! The point of RW being 'exotic' for Americans might be interesting, though. My post was a reaction to the Pat's observation that RW change as soon as they start their lives in the West. Pat believes that this is because the dating dynamics shifts and their desirability change.On my part, I don't understand how multiple signs of attention from men can have any influence on the ego. And I am a RW in the West, I don't quite agree with Pat on this :)  although exceptions may happen.
    Lily i spoke about divorced women which means that they have already spent few times in west, so "as they start their lives in the West" is not my post.
    " My post was a reaction to the Pat's observation that RW change as soon as they start their lives in the West. Pat believes that this is because the dating dynamics shifts and their desirability change.On my part, I don't understand how multiple signs of attention from men can have any influence on the ego". I confirm here my opinion that divorced FSU women show that they have shifted by wanting a significant less age gap rather than those who live in FSU. But my concern is more about western women and how high are their ego. 
    "Je glissais through the paper wall, an angel in the hand, s taboy. I lay on the floor, surgi des chants de Maldoror, je mix l'intégrale de mes nuits de crystal, i belong to the festival.

    Offline Patagonie

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    Re: Operation White Panther
    « Reply #346 on: July 17, 2011, 05:31:13 AM »
    Lily, I can't believe you wrote such words. :o

    I think it is quite common (and quite understandable why) that people (both men and women) do start feeling differently (whether we want to refer to ego or something else) when they start getting more attention from opposite gender.

    Actually, most of us start thinking differently about ourself when we get attention from even one person.
    +1
    If a girl is interested in you you will notice her and you will be MORE interested in her than an other one (for the same level of beauty and all parameters being equals)
    "Je glissais through the paper wall, an angel in the hand, s taboy. I lay on the floor, surgi des chants de Maldoror, je mix l'intégrale de mes nuits de crystal, i belong to the festival.

    Offline Patagonie

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    Re: Operation White Panther
    « Reply #347 on: July 17, 2011, 05:39:36 AM »
    Misha, I will have to disagree with you on this one, especially if you are talking about WMVM international dating. Ask your wife the meaning of:
    - быстрота нужна при ловле блох
    - "Скоро только кошки родятся" (from the "12 chairs" book)

    Showing within the first minute that she fell for a guy, while knowing that the guy is probably seeing 3-5 other women today might get a woman to bed with this guy, but not very likely will make her competitive with other 3-5 women and increase her chances for marrying this guy. Plus, keep in mind that not all women want to compete, some want to be "the only ones," want to see how this particular guy is serious about them, and whether they are his #1 on a list, or make sure that he does not have the lengthy list of ranked women, before they show him any sort of affection or strong interest.
    What you may take for "woman being into you" can be common among ukrainian and russian women "politeness". It can mean something, or it can mean nothing.   
    Mies is wise, i add a +1 here. You will see in episode 2 interesting examples around meetings which illustrate such opinions.
    "Je glissais through the paper wall, an angel in the hand, s taboy. I lay on the floor, surgi des chants de Maldoror, je mix l'intégrale de mes nuits de crystal, i belong to the festival.

    Offline Patagonie

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    Re: Operation White Panther
    « Reply #348 on: July 17, 2011, 05:56:33 AM »
    • Why should I ask my wife, I am perfectly capable of reading Russian. The fact of the matter is that attraction is decided quite quickly and most often it is unconscious and we are processing information that we do not know we are gathering and without even knowing we are doing it. The BBC has a fascinating set of articles on the science of falling in love that I would recommend:


      A quote:
      I have never timed how long it takes for a cat to give birth to kittens, but it would certainly take more than 90 seconds and perhaps even more than 4 minutes ;)


      This as described by the BBC matches my experience. Either attraction is there or it isn't and usually the falling in love stage happens quickly or it doesn't. Of course, it takes time for the falling in love phase to be replaced by a love that is more than hormonal.



      Sure, she can fake it, but generally if it is real, the man should hopefully be able to figure it out.



      Personally, I spend more than enough time with Russians to know the difference between politeness and a "woman being into me." Of course, this does not apply to all men, but if a man is paying attention, he should learn how to quickly learn to identify important non-verbal cues that will guide him.


      PS - The Science of Love:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/love/index.shtml
    The Science of Flirting: http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/love/flirting.shtml[/q]

    Misha interesting post.
    The time to fancy someone is more about what you are describing :
    • 55% is through body language
    • 38% is the tone and speed of our voice
    • Only 7% is through what we say
    But Misha i would not use the term of love. You are not enough accurate. Like guy you are passing the attraction test with a woman, and this test during the first minutes is essentialy based on your body language (and body means clothes as i never saw a guy successful naked) and your voice. Please don't speak about love it's too early.

    "Sure, she can fake it, but generally if it is real, the man should hopefully be able to figure it out." Not sure. Women are master in controlling themelves and being manipulatives.
    "Je glissais through the paper wall, an angel in the hand, s taboy. I lay on the floor, surgi des chants de Maldoror, je mix l'intégrale de mes nuits de crystal, i belong to the festival.

    Offline Lily

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    Re: Operation White Panther
    « Reply #349 on: July 17, 2011, 07:19:59 AM »
    Misha, I will have to disagree with you on this one, especially if you are talking about WMVM international dating. Ask your wife the meaning of:
    - быстрота нужна при ловле блох
    - "Скоро только кошки родятся" (from the "12 chairs" book)

    Showing within the first minute that she fell for a guy, while knowing that the guy is probably seeing 3-5 other women today might get a woman to bed with this guy, but not very likely will make her competitive with other 3-5 women and increase her chances for marrying this guy. Plus, keep in mind that not all women want to compete, some want to be "the only ones," want to see how this particular guy is serious about them, and whether they are his #1 on a list, or make sure that he does not have the lengthy list of ranked women, before they show him any sort of affection or strong interest.
    What you may take for "woman being into you" can be common among ukrainian and russian women "politeness". It can mean something, or it can mean nothing.   

    Fully agree with mies here :)

    How many times did I saw that guys just confuse signs of attraction with a woman being just polite. Men may believe, how could she write me a reply if she is not sure about her interest? Well, it is a basic politeness, that's why she bothered to jot you a line. How could she come to see me if she is not into me? Well, she is appreciative of your interest, and is naturally curious, that's why.

    However, to determine whether a physical attraction is here, a few minutes would be by far not enough. An hour, may be. Trying to kiss may eventually be a kind of test. But even here, she may try to suppress her guts that tell her no. I think that the woman will be asking her instincts the same question quite intensively, during all your meeting, and will see what do they tell her! :)
    « Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 07:21:37 AM by Lily »
    Da, da, Canada; Nyet, nyet, Soviet!

     

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