Operation White Panther

[Misha]

But Misha i would not use the term of love. You are not enough accurate. Like guy you are passing the attraction test with a woman, and this test during the first minutes is essentialy based on your body language (and body means clothes as i never saw a guy successful naked) and your voice. Please don't speak about love it's too early.

"Sure, she can fake it, but generally if it is real, the man should hopefully be able to figure it out." Not sure. Women are master in controlling themelves and being manipulatives.

I made the distinction between falling in love and love. The falling in love, the giddy chemical-driven sensations, generally happens relatively quickly (though I am sure there is somebody out there that will come up with an exception). Usually it will be quite instantaneous (hence the expression love at first sight) or it will develop over a period of hours or days. This is when your brain is making a host of chemicals that leads to the giddiness, euphoric feelings etc... Women experience it as do men. These sensations do fade over time and couples who fell in love hopefully will make the transition to simply loving each other and this takes more time.

Is it possible for couple to love each other over time without having fallen in love? Yes, of course. Many married couples in arranged marriages may never have fallen in love yet at the end will truly love each other.

At the end of the day, we all make our own choices. I, personally, did not want to marry a woman who was getting married in the hopes that love would eventually develop over time. I wanted somebody who did fall in love, I wanted passion and I wanted for the falling in love to be mutual. In my personal opinion and based on my own experience, believe it if you wish or not, but I do believe that it is possible if you pay attention to know if a woman has fallen in love (again not to be confused with love).   

[Misha]

However, to determine whether a physical attraction is here, a few minutes would be by far not enough.

You are right, it takes more than a few minutes to identify. However, the point of the BBC article was that it happens in a few minutes. You are often smitten within minutes.

An hour, may be. Trying to kiss may eventually be a kind of test. But even here, she may try to suppress her guts that tell her no. I think that the woman will be asking her instincts the same question quite intensively, during all your meeting, and will see what do they tell her!

If you go to a restaurant or a café and simply observe a young couple on a romantic date, you can quite easily tell whether they both have romantic feelings for each other even if they do not kiss. Do they lean in to each other? Do they mirror each other? How much eye contact is there? What is their posture? Do they touch each other if only briefly? There is a host of clues being communicated unconsciously through body language, clues that are not necessarily that easy to fake for several hours...

[mies]

• Why should I ask my wife, I am perfectly capable of reading Russian. The fact of the matter is that attraction is decided quite quickly and most often it is unconscious and we are processing information that we do not know we are gathering and without even knowing we are doing it.

So you've read "the 12 chairs" book and know the context I am referring to?

I did not say you should ask your wife to translate for you these phrases, I suggested that she can share with you more details on the meaning of those phrases. But maybe you were born and raised in Russia, or studied Russian culture and literature for many years, so you don't need this. Then disregard..

Of course attraction/need to do something/stimuli to act in a certain way are often felt within first seconds/minutes. Whether to show it is a different matter. Let's say you realize you need to use the restroom, but you aren't going to go and pee in the middle of the street. More likely you will look for the toilet.
Or suppose you meet a married woman while her husband is standing by her side. She is everything you've ever dreamed about in a woman. Are you going to show right away how you feel about her?

[Misha]

Of course attraction/need to do something/stimuli to act in a certain way are often felt within first seconds/minutes. Whether to show it is a different matter. Let's say you realize you need to use the restroom, but you aren't going to go and pee in the middle of the street. More likely you will look for the toilet.
Or suppose you meet a married woman while her husband is standing by her side. She is everything you've ever dreamed about in a woman. Are you going to show right away how you feel about her?

Given two options: dating a woman that I fell in love with and who fell in love with me or dating a woman whereby at least one did not fall in love with the other, I would go for the first option and if I had only option 2 available, it would be best IMHO to keep looking.

I am not sure, though, what is precisely the point you are trying to make. I did my best to avoid dating married women and yes, I prefer bathroom when I have to go and there is one available.

[Patagonie]

So you've read "the 12 chairs" book and know the context I am referring to?

I did not say you should ask your wife to translate for you these phrases, I suggested that she can share with you more details on the meaning of those phrases. But maybe you were born and raised in Russia, or studied Russian culture and literature for many years, so you don't need this. Then disregard..

Of course attraction/need to do something/stimuli to act in a certain way are often felt within first seconds/minutes. Whether to show it is a different matter. Let's say you realize you need to use the restroom, but you aren't going to go and pee in the middle of the street. More likely you will look for the toilet.
Or suppose you meet a married woman while her husband is standing by her side. She is everything you've ever dreamed about in a woman. Are you going to show right away how you feel about her?

1/ If i know the man (husband) i would avoid her wife at anytime and/or will do all my best to not let any ambiguous situation happen.
2/ In almost all the time  i would avoid married women, there are a lot of women who are singles, so really, why search complicated situations ?
3/ if it's just to chase, perhaps, avoiding the fall in love/love situation (Misha parameters  ) as possible. ONS category in my western life in the west.

[mies]

Given two options: dating a woman that I fell in love with and who fell in love with me or dating a woman whereby at least one did not fall in love with the other, I would go for the first option and if I had only option 2 available, it would be best IMHO to keep looking.

I am not sure, though, what is precisely the point you are trying to make. I did my best to avoid dating married women and yes, I prefer bathroom when I have to go and there is one available.

My point is that in many cases when RW meets a foreigner first time (even after some period of online correspondence), the foreigner is a "black box" for her, she does not know if he is a good person or bad, if he came with intent to marry or he is a sex tourist, if he is going to see more women today or she is the only one. Because of this uncertainty, the woman can temporarily suppress the urge to kiss/touch/etc this man, just like you will make sure that your actions are appropriate (use a restroom and date single women vs. peeing on a street or hitting on married woman) and will not cause any negative outcome for her. Showing a man that she is interested in him, and starting romance quickly, only to find out 5 days later that he is a player and a sex-tourist, is definitely a negative outcome for a serious marriage-minded woman. It is not about playing "hard to get", it is about "not wasting pearls on swines" ("не мечите бисер перед свиньями").

[mies]

1/ If i know the man (husband) i would avoid her wife at anytime and/or will do all my best to not let any ambiguous situation happen.
2/ In almost all the time  i would avoid married women, there are a lot of women who are singles, so really, why search complicated situations ?
3/ if it's just to chase, perhaps, avoiding the fall in love/love situation (Misha parameters  ) as possible. ONS category in my western life in the west.

Exactly my point. When you know for sure that woman is unavailable - you will not be looking for complicated situations.
For a woman who sees you first time - she does not know whether you are available for her, for the kind of relationship she is looking for. So she may wait some until before revealing her interest: in order to avoid "complicated situations", she will try to get to know you first.

[Misha]

My point is that in many cases when RW meets a foreigner first time (even after some period of online correspondence), the foreigner is a "black box" for her, she does not know if he is a good person or bad, if he came with intent to marry or he is a sex tourist, if he is going to see more women today or she is the only one.

The same could be said of a Russian woman meeting a Russian man in person for the first time. She has no way or really knowing if he is really interested in a relationship or a one-night stand.

Because of this uncertainty, the woman can temporarily suppress the urge to kiss/touch/etc this man, just like you will make sure that your actions are appropriate (use a restroom and date single women vs. peeing on a street or hitting on married woman) and will not cause any negative outcome for her.

Yes, I did meet such a woman once. Dated her several times and she gave zero sign that she was interested. Decided that life is too short and moved on.


However, I am really happy that I did not have to meet women who were meeting foreigners via agencies.

[mies]

The same could be said of a Russian woman meeting a Russian man in person for the first time. She has no way or really knowing if he is really interested in a relationship or a one-night stand.

No. The same could not be said about Russian men, because Russian men are not commonly known for having a tight schedule of several "dates" in each day of their weekly visit, when they have to run from one date to another, or ask interpreter/friend/acquaintance to entertain the next date while they are finishing the previous one. While foreign men, especially those in international dating, have exactly this reputation among Russian women.

Yes, I did meet such a woman once. Dated her several times and she gave zero sign that she was interested. Decided that life is too short and moved on.

However, I am really happy that I did not have to meet women who were meeting foreigners via agencies.

Since you are married, I assume you made all good choices in the past. But I do not think that you should advise every man on this board to discard reserved women.

[Misha]

No. The same could not be said about Russian men, because Russian men are not commonly known for having a tight schedule of several "dates" in each day of their weekly visit, when they have to run from one date to another, or ask interpreter/friend/acquaintance to entertain the next date while they are finishing the previous one.

Well, the juggling of dates with different women will be there, but in a different form and spread over a bit more time   

Since you are married, I assume you made all good choices in the past. But I do not think that you should advise every man on this board to discard reserved women.

Again, speaking from personal experience, I did not want to be with a woman if I had any doubts and if she was so reserved that she did not allow any feelings or emotions to go through or who was not willing to take some risks for love. I did not want to be with a woman unless I knew that there was passion and that I was the man she truly wanted to be with, a man she had fallen in love with. I did not want to be the consolation prize, I did not want to be with a woman who was with me solely по расчёту. At the end of day, I am very  happy. Five years later, I do not doubt that my wife loves me dearly.

[Patagonie]

No. The same could not be said about Russian men, because Russian men are not commonly known for having a tight schedule of several "dates" in each day of their weekly visit, when they have to run from one date to another, or ask interpreter/friend/acquaintance to entertain the next date while they are finishing the previous one. While foreign men, especially those in international dating, have exactly this reputation among Russian women.
 Since you are married, I assume you made all good choices in the past. But I do not think that you should advise every man on this board to discard reserved women.

This is interesting, in Operation White Panther 2nd edition we will see which type of problem can happen with such behavior "reserved women", when they date a foreigner with a tight schedule.
I would replaced this sentence "But I do not think that you should advise every man on this board to discard reserved women." by "how can i advice reserved women to not be discarded by visiting foreigner with tight schedule". Later in Operation White Panther 2nd edition.

[mies]

Well, the juggling of dates with different women will be there, but in a different form and spread over a bit more time   




Again, speaking from personal experience, I did not want to be with a woman if I had any doubts and if she was so reserved that she did not allow any feelings or emotions to go through or who was not {a woman} willing to take some risks for love. I did not want to be with a woman unless I knew that there was passion and that I was the man she truly wanted to be with, a man she had fallen in love with. I did not want to be the consolation prize, I did not want to be with a woman who was with me solely по расчёту. At the end of day, I am very  happy. Five years later, I do not doubt that my wife loves me dearly.

yeah...in case of RM the juggling of dates with different women will be spread over a month or a year, or maybe 2-3 years period of time. . sure.. EXACTLY the same case as juggling 5+ women in one day by WM   


ok, ok.. i get it! You did not want to take a risk for love, so you were looking for woman who would take a risk thaaat's whyyy you needed an RW - because a russian women "коня на скаку остановит, в горящую избу войдет" 
Dear Diary, Misha is a chicken    a true romantic, who likes risk-loving women 

[Misha]

Let's see, I once traveled two days by train to a city that I did not know in Russia to meet a woman, and I did not take any risks?!? The one thing that I did not clarify is that showing that you are into somebody is not the same thing as sex. I wanted a woman that I fell in love with who had also fallen in live with me. I wanted it to be mutual!

However, I do not know why I have to explain this to you. Have you never fallen in love?!?

As for Western men meeting five women in one day, that was never me. I limited myself to a maximum of one date per day and I only moved on to date a new woman if things had not worked out with the previous woman I was dating. We don't all fit your stereotypes of Western men...

[mies]

Let's see, I once traveled two days by train to a city that I did not know in Russia to meet a woman, and I did not take any risks?!? The one thing that I did not clarify is that showing that you are into somebody is not the same thing as sex. I wanted a woman that I fell in love with who had also fallen in live with me. I wanted it to be mutual!

However, I do not know why I have to explain this to you. Have you never fallen in love?!?

As for Western men meeting five women in one day, that was never me. I limited myself to a maximum of one date per day and I only moved on to date a new woman if things had not worked out with the previous woman I was dating. We don't all fit your stereotypes of Western men...

You are romantic I guessed that one right. 
and yes, i did fall in love, once, about 11 years ago. That's why i am married now

[Misha]

You are romantic I guessed that one right. 
and yes, i did fall in love, once, about 11 years ago. That's why i am married now

Yes, you guessed right, I do have a romantic streak 

[Patagonie]

Mies and Misha,
Oh they are so cute !

[Patagonie]

Today i found this on the social network of my wife, first page :

Милый, любимый, желанный, нежный, ласковый, заботливый, мужественный... Все это один человек... Любимый муж, спасибо за то, что ты у меня есть!

Which Google translates, probably badly :
Darling, darling, welcome, gentle, affectionate, caring, courageous ... All that one person ... Beloved husband, thank you for the fact that I have you!

[ML]

Today i found this on the social network of my wife, first page :

Милый, любимый, желанный, нежный, ласковый, заботливый, мужественный... Все это один человек... Любимый муж, спасибо за то, что ты у меня есть!

Which Google translates, probably badly :
Darling, darling, welcome, gentle, affectionate, caring, courageous ... All that one person ... Beloved husband, thank you for the fact that I have you!

Very nice; but, what did she write about you??   

[Patagonie]

Very nice; but, what did she write about you??   

ML you are a bad boy  .

[mies]

Today i found this on the social network of my wife, first page :

Милый, любимый, желанный, нежный, ласковый, заботливый, мужественный... Все это один человек... Любимый муж, спасибо за то, что ты у меня есть!

Which Google translates, probably badly :
Darling, darling, welcome, gentle, affectionate, caring, courageous ... All that one person ... Beloved husband, thank you for the fact that I have you!

Google did a good translation, my version:
"Darling, beloved, desired, tender/gentle, affectionate/fond, caring, high-spirited/manly... All this is one person. My beloved husband, thank you for that I have you/you are with me."

Congratulations, Patagonie!

[Muzh]

Pat, YOU STUD!!!! 

[Anotherkiwi]

Pat, YOU STUD!!!! 

 
 
He's DA MAN!!!!

[JohnDearGreen]

[size=78%]Милый, любимый, желанный, нежный, ласковый, заботливый, мужественный... Все это один человек... Любимый муж, спасибо за то, что ты у меня есть! [/size]

Very nice thoughts, but not very original:
http://www.inpearls.ru/comments/354038
http://statusoflove.ru/l5/850-milyy-lyubimyy-zhelannyy-nezhnyy-laskovyy-zabotlivyy-muzhestvennyy-edinstvennyy-vse-eto-odin-chel.html

[Patagonie]

Very nice thoughts, but not very original:
http://www.inpearls.ru/comments/354038
http://statusoflove.ru/l5/850-milyy-lyubimyy-zhelannyy-nezhnyy-laskovyy-zabotlivyy-muzhestvennyy-edinstvennyy-vse-eto-odin-chel.html

you are a monument of romantism and tact  .

[JohnDearGreen]

you are a monument of romantism and tact  .

If you weren't married, there would be a dozen scam-happy guys here telling you she is not real, and the note was written by some fat guy named Boris at an agency somewhere.  I never placed much value on that strategy.  A quick google shows that phrase on about 2 dozen FSU ladies home pages.