Putin is Ruining Russia

[AkMike]

But, But.... say it ain't so! RT wouldn't say anything that wasn't true..



 Would they?

[Doll]

Doll, are you referring to the shooting down of MH17?  I'm sorry, but if you think that "experts" have proved the nonsensical claim that a Ukrainian fighter shot down the airliner, you need to start using other news media as your main source of information.  Even the Russian air traffic control staff (in Rostov) confirmed within a day or two of the crash that there were NO aircraft (military or civil) anywhere near MH17 when it was brought down.

It is proven that the plane was shot down by air-to-air thing

[Doll]

Who is RT ? I hate abbreviations

[Boethius]

RT = Russia Today.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/german-intelligence-blames-pro-russian-separatists-for-mh17-downing-a-997972.html

[Anotherkiwi]

It is proven that the plane was shot down by air-to-air thing

Doll, that's rubbish, and it's about time you admitted it.  It's pretty difficult for a non-existent plane to fire an "air-to-air thing."  You cannot have it both ways - the Russians who had the best knowledge of the facts have admitted that it cannot have happened because there was no other plane to fire a missile, and yet other (more important) Russians say that is the way it MUST have happened simply because they don't want the general Russian population to realise that there are other possible explanations - explanations which would be highly detrimental to their own careers, and even to Russia itself.

I thought you had enough intelligence to discern what is so obviously an outright lie because you, unlike the general Russian population, have access to far more sources of information.  Just because most of those sources are based in Western countries does not make the majority of them any less reliable, even if some of them are as nonsensical as RT.

Until the past few months I had always respected your beliefs and how you posted, even if I didn't always agree with what you wrote.  That tolerance will end if you continue to affirm that a non-existent Ukrainian plane shot down the airliner.

[Gator]

Until the past few months I had always respected your beliefs and how you posted, even if I didn't always agree with what you wrote.  That tolerance will end if you continue to affirm that a non-existent Ukrainian plane shot down the airliner.

Kiwi,

This is my take.  Do not try to be logical with Doll; she is merely a representative of the general Russian mindset. 

I am fairly certain that the average Russian knows something is fishy about the RT explanations, and many Russians likely suspect that the rebels if not Russian operatives were responsible.   It is very difficult to believe, much less accept, that one's mother country is capable of such wrong doing.   So Russians take the path of denial. 

Denial first requires rationalizing a contrivance to reality.   Once an alternative is contrived, they stick to it as if it were the incontrovertible truth, pravda.    In the case of an addict or someone in grief, denial is a psychological defense.   Yet in the case of Russians,  it is more than that.  It is even more than saving face.  It seems to be automatic, inculcated over perhaps centuries. 

Putin is a master of it, taking advantage of Russians starving for national pride.   He uses the power of denial not just for MH17 but for Russia's involvement in Ukraine.    I do not admire denial, and in fact I consider it juvenile and no way to conduct diplomacy.   That is one reason why Putin garnered so little respect among the G20. 

IMO such is one aspect of the so called Russian mentality.  Fortunately, this does not apply so much in personal dealings,  particularly with Russians from whom you have earned their trust.    Either that, or I have been lucky with my acquaintances. 

I can not believe intelligent Russians are buying the Putin line.  It is fascinating that no Russians at RWD speak against the MH17 denial,  speak against Russia's intervention in Ukraine, or speak against Putin.  Imagine if the US were doing this in Mexico.  A majority of Americans would protest, many vehemently.   

Maybe one day a RWD Russian will protest,  or post a candid explanation  why no one protests.   

[Doll]

RT = Russia Today.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/german-intelligence-blames-pro-russian-separatists-for-mh17-downing-a-997972.html

OMG! Would never think of it. Hahahaa

[AC]

It is proven that the plane was shot down by air-to-air thing

 

[Boethius]

OMG! Would never think of it. Hahahaa

Read the link. 


All the evidence points to the terrorists, including their bragging about bringing down a plane moments after MH17 was downed.


BTW, Germany is the most pro Russian member of the EU, and wanted to avoid sanctions.

[AC]

Read the link. 

She can't read, she can only watch Russian cartoons. 

[Photo Guy]

So how is Putin ruining Russia? He is creating a huge division between Ukrainians and Russians. How is he doing this?

He is defending a minority in Ukraine, who favor a Russian way of life. He is defending a minority in Ukraine who agree with his idea of a New Russia.

The leader of the DPR, has stated that as part of any Minsk agreement, all of the Donetsk Oblast should be under rebel control, a part of the New Russia.

This is a huge problem. My friends in Mariupol do NOT want to be part of this break-away region. It is frightening because Putin and the rebel leaders do NOT care what the people of Mariupol think. That says a lot about the DPR and Putin. They do not care about citizens in eastern Ukraine who want NO part of this new rebel republic(s).

Putin's unwillingness to honor the will of the people in most of Ukraine, combined with his favorable attitude towards leaders like Girkin and other rebels, makes most people view him as unreasonable:
'...The self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic (DPR) will never become part of a united Ukraine, the breakaway region's Vice Prime Minister Andrei Purgin said Saturday...'
   So there you have one of the leaders that Putin wants to support and protect. At the same time, Putin has recently stated that he sees the rebel regions as remaining within the nation of Ukraine.
   How can the world trust a man like Putin? They can't. Putin is ruining Russia, and trying to destroy a Ukraine that has rejected Yanukovych.
I think many Ukrainians view Putin as similar to Yanukovych. An enemy of democracy...

[Doll]

Where did Putin said all this? It is your imagination

[calmissile]

Now we know the secret of the Russian mind.   

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/19/world/europe/putin-cites-claim-about-us-designs-on-siberia-traced-to-russian-mind-readers.html?_r=1

[lordtiberius]

Where did Putin said all this? It is your imagination

You complicit in Putin's crimes.  Your apologies for him, your insensitivity to the suffering of his victims and your denial of the truth merits contempt. 

[Photo Guy]

Putin lied about Russian troops entering Crimea. He later admitted to this fact.
In the same way Russian troops 'on vacation' have reinforced separatists in Donbas.

So what is Putin's thinking? He condones helping separatists as a force that is against the central government in Kiev. I get that. He doesn't want Ukraine or the  majority of Ukrainians to move in a direction away from Moscow and towards the EU. I understand that.

Here is Putin's stupidity:
By killing Ukrainian nationalists who stand for a unified Ukraine, and by supporting the mercenaries from Russia and other places, Russia has pushed most Ukrainians away from Russia, away from Moscow, away from Putin. This kills his own goal of an expanded Russia. By pushing most Ukrainians away from him, Putin has shot himself in the foot. Putin really needs a better public relations campaign. His current strategy of a covert war in Ukraine and the goal of a New Russia look insane to most Ukrainians, who simply want peace, freedom, an end to corruption, prosperity, freedom of speech, and a western way of life. Most Ukrainians and most of the world see Russia's actions as a huge obstacle to achieving these civilized goals.
   Most of the world sees it this way. So, Putin is ruining Russia. Establishing himself as a 'bully', Putin is killing people while telling the world, 'No, you cannot trust me.' ...and the Russian people like that kind of leader???
...very sad.

[Photo Guy]

Doll, most Ukrainians have a very low opinion of Putin and Russia now. Don't you have any friends or relatives in Ukraine? Hello? The former leader of Donestsk rebels, is a Russian citizen. Everyone knows that, do you? Hello?

[Photo Guy]

The year 2014- How Putin Is Ruining Russia:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russia-will-stick-with-putin-till-the-bitter-end/514371.html

excerpt:
'...Russia's actions in 2014 were shocking both for their scale and abruptness. Tossing aside all concern for world rankings, economic considerations and the standards of international cooperation — all of that boring baggage of today's global system — the Kremlin set sail for unchartered waters. According to philosopher Mikhail Yampolsky, "Russia moved from the post-modern world to the modern" — that is, back to the first half of the 20th century...'

[Taz]

Doll, that's rubbish, and it's about time you admitted it.  It's pretty difficult for a non-existent plane to fire an "air-to-air thing."  You cannot have it both ways - the Russians who had the best knowledge of the facts have admitted that it cannot have happened because there was no other plane to fire a missile, and yet other (more important) Russians say that is the way it MUST have happened simply because they don't want the general Russian population to realise that there are other possible explanations - explanations which would be highly detrimental to their own careers, and even to Russia itself.

Until the past few months I had always respected your beliefs and how you posted, even if I didn't always agree with what you wrote.  That tolerance will end if you continue to affirm that a non-existent Ukrainian plane shot down the airliner.

Don't confuse Doll with any facts. I have spent so much time in Ukraine over the last year I feel like I've been living there. I was in Kiev during the protests against Yanukovich and protested against his corruption. Just for the record I was never previously anti-Russian and speak Russian fluently but as a result of the events the past year year I am slowly having my mine changed by Putin's actions. I did live in Moscow shortly after this evil man came to power.


As for the Malaysian flight MH 17 shot down by the Russians here is the best concise info I've found on it.


http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/p/mh17.html


Putin's popularity will fall very quickly if the price of oil stays low. That is what I hope and pray for every day.


Most Russians are so blinded by nationalism that they can't see the forest for the trees. Oil was responsible for Russia's wealth over the last 10 years, not Putin. Now his corruption is coming home to roost.

[AC]

The blog of the link you provided states that the trigger was pulled by Russians, and that they knew it was a civilian aircraft.  Hard to believe they could do such a criminal thing, however with a guy like Putin in charge any criminal act is possible.

excerpt

Summary and conclusion
 The TELAR/BUK that shot down MH17 was deliberately driven into Ukraine to a location within range of a Command and Control Radar unit on Russian territory.
 There was hardly any strategical gain compared to having a BUK on Russian territory.
 The goal to have such a complicated and dangerous operation of bringing the BUK into Ukraine was to OBSCURE the fact that it would be operated by Russians.
 The BUK came WITH a crew.
 The C&C in Russia had been monitoring the skies for weeks already, if not for months. They have seen civilian planes all the time.
 They got an early warning by a spotter.
 They knew MH17 was a civilian plane.
 Still they gave the order to bring it down.

 It does not mean EVERYBODY knew this. In fact NOBODY local knew about it. The locals ALL thought and where told it was a AN-26, until they found out. Only the few people in the C&C and maybe the crew in the TELAR itself knew about it. These people operate in strict discipline and doctrine. They had orders and ask no questions."

[Taz]

I was a military pilot and have a degree in aeronautical engineering. The Russians would have easily known it was a civilian aircraft. All civilian aircraft use a transponder for identification. In addition military aircraft have these as well and use them when not in combat though Russian fighters and bombers have started turning them off while entering European airspace. This could lead to collisions with passenger aircraft. In addition civilian aircraft in that area were flying at much higher altitudes AND much faster than the transport planes the Russian would be targeting.


An AN-26 (propeller based, not jet) has a TOP speed of about 500 km/h while most modern jet aircraft cruise at much higher speeds around 800 km/h or faster. There is NO WAY any reasonable competent weapons office in charge of the launcher wouldn't know that it was a civilian aircraft. So at cruise speed an AN26 would be about half the speed of a passenger jet at cruise. Can you tell the difference between a car going 60 mph and 120 mph? I would think so.


I have listened to the audio (in Russian) and it is very obvious that they (Russians) realized they screwed the pooch shortly after it was brought down even if they were mistaken before (unlikely). They even posted on twitter & facebook bragging how they shot down another aircraft. All these posts were then deleted later but not before they were captured.


You don't need someone of my experience and education to figure out the Russian are lying about this. Almost ANYONE can see by the evidence the Russians are guilty. Search for conversations by "Strelkov" and the downing of this aircraft. Strelkov is his nom de plume so to speak but he was the Russian in charge of this. He has now fled the area back to Russia. Strelkov in Russian means "shooter". I am sure by now they have translated or subtitled versions of his conversations regarding the downing of this. I heard the original ones in Russian. The Ukrainian Army speaks in Ukrainian, not Russian so it is easy to tell.

[BillyB]

I was a military pilot and have a degree in aeronautical engineering. The Russians would have easily known it was a civilian aircraft. All civilian aircraft use a transponder for identification.

The American military has shot down civilian airliners. Mistakes happen. Do I believe Russia had a hand in downing the MH17? Yes. Do I think they did it on purpose? No. Russia doesn't want Ukraine to get support or sympathy from the West. Downing civilian aircraft is counter productive to Putin's goals.

[Photo Guy]

Billy, I agree. I don't think an airliner was intentionally shot down. Most people think a BUK missile launcher from Russia was used by separatists. It's mostly a case of incompetence and the chaos of war. If Russia had not supplied the BUK, lives would have been saved. Russia is supplying weapons. Weapons are killing people. For what? For a New Russia in Ukraine? To fight imaginary fascists? It is not about language or culture- Poroshenko has already offered a lot of autonomy for Donbas. It was refused. The rebels want to have a separate country. They also want money from Kiev. They can take from Kiev but what are they willing to give back? Missiles?

[Taz]

The last time the US shot down a civilian aircraft to my knowledge was in 1988. The fire and control systems are typically improved since then.


Do I 100% believe that the Russians knew it was a civilian aircraft before firing, no. I do think they were very trigger happy and if they weren't in such a hurry less likely to make mistakes. The rules of engagement now for the US are so restrictive it is very hard to even protect yourself. My son is in the Navy and he was shocked at what it will take for his ships to even be able to defend themselves now.


Here is some more info in English and Russian about Strelkov.


http://www.interpretermag.com/was-col-strelkovs-dispatch-about-a-downed-ukrainian-plane-authentic/


Some interesting info here from the Dutch. Look down the page a bit.


http://ukraine-truth.com/category/debunked-soviet-propaganda/

[Photo Guy]

This new headline caught my attention. Just another reason not to trust Russia. Threats and more threats.
Gazprom warns EU to link to Turkey pipeline or lose Russian gas

[lordtiberius]

The American military has shot down civilian airliners. Mistakes happen. Do I believe Russia had a hand in downing the MH17? Yes. Do I think they did it on purpose? No. Russia doesn't want Ukraine to get support or sympathy from the West. Downing civilian aircraft is counter productive to Putin's goals.

We also pay the victims and accept responsibility.