DOUBLE DEALERS

[jb]

Sandro,

No problem as far as I'm concerned, but I'll serve you fair warning, if you begin to suggest that these older middle-aged men are probably getting dates with hookers when they chase after available young hotties, you will be flamed unmercifully.

I do agree with you that it's a huge problem and any time I read about a 50's year old one week wonder and he gets engaged to a 20's something hottie, in less than a week;  I automatically think "hooker".

Good luck .

[Admin]

No problem as far as I'm concerned, but I'll serve you fair warning, if you begin to suggest that these older middle-aged men are probably getting dates with hookers when they chase after available young hotties, you will be flamed unmercifully.

I hope not. Sandro has done a great job of ferreting out information that is pretty compelling. While it may not be definitive, it certainly sends up some warning flags that guys would be wise to heed.

My $.02.

- Dan

[SANDRO43]

OK then, I think that we are all in agreement that the subject is worth pursuing (Dan, thanks for your accolade).  

JB, I think that possible targets may not be limited to horny 50+ y.o., younger people may be at risk as well.

Therefore, I shall shortly post notice of an update to my "double dealer" page, featuring luscious Elena Mardanova/Angela who recently tried the "airfare scam" on me (granted, JB, I'm 63 and therefore old enough by your standards to be a worthwhile target, but cursed age may also endow a person with a little wisdom and sense of perspective:D. When she asked me for $813 to come visiting, I replied :"Honey, it's just a 4-hours' job for you to come up with that sort of money, I am droolingly expecting you !":P  . No further contacts after that )

[Turboguy]

I do agree with you that it's a huge problem and any time I read about a 50's year old one week wonder and he gets engaged to a 20's something hottie, in less than a week;  I automatically think "hooker".

Why in the world would you think that jb.  Green card girl maybe but why hooker? 

I have heard comments that all women are hookers in one way or another but I don't necessarily subsribe to that theory.

[andrewfi]

Yup, twas I got e a royal reaming for making suggestions about the motivations of young women and older men.

TG~ At your age any woman in her twenties is a trophy bride in your peer group. Making the somewhat dubious cvlaim that looks are not important is specious at best and from your perspective self deluding. When you are next with your real peers look how many have wives thirty years younger than themselves and realsie what you are seeking...

Be real. many women in the FSU have worked, or do work in what the Americans cal the sex industry. It has been estimated that over 50% of ALL ethnic Russians in Estonia, who have kids, have engaged in commercial sex. Marriage to a self delusional middle aged foreigner can be a delightful retirement package.

It has been suggested, and with justification that a woman earning a decent living as a prostitute is not likely to want or need to marry a foreigner to secure her life. What they do not realise is that hooking is hard work. Finding one john and satisying him is much easier than having many. Also, a woman hitting her thirties is ancient in hooking terms, but young to many midleaged and older self deluders.

That pictures of hookers are on major MOB agencies is hardly a surprise. The crossoever in interests and motivations between hokers and women in MOB agencies is huge -set aside the number of MOB agencies that also offer prostitutes on a different URL. Same software, same business model, same raw material. Makes good business sense.

[viking]

When I was in my 30's, living in Manhattan, my apartment neighbor was a drop dead 10+ beautiful girl in her early 20's. She was a 'high priced call girl'. A hooker. We became friends and sometimes I would make her supper and she would hmmm. make me feel good. she was not very good financially And I would help her with her bank accounts. Some $600K. Not bad for a young 20's something.

The point here is that she told me when she hits $1Mil, she is going to quit, move some place different, find a nice guy who doesn't have a clue about her past, settle down and be happy.

So..if you were that guy, what the heck difference would it make? Unless she is ripping you off, what is the big deal?

[andrewfi]

Viking ~ in general terms, I agree with you. In practice though there are problems. If one has spent many years dealing with guys, primarily in terms of their economic value and themselves only in terms of their value as a collection of warm moist orifices then there is usually an imbalance in the personality. (not always, but I would expect to get rich on the outcome of each individual case!)

At best, one might hope to find a woman who devotes her life to her new 'career' and client. Both parties might be satisfied with such an outcome, if the guy was unknowing. But, if he knew, then how will he handle his self esteem? How wil he handle knwoing that he is merely a long term client?

At worst, well, the boards are full of the outcomes of those cases.

[Shadow]

When going over the double-dealers page it was interesting that in many cases the women put up ads on dating sites under different names. This puts a bomb under Andrefi's theory, as a girl wanting to find a ignorant foreigner would not put herself up under three different names.

On the other hand, Fat Yuri needs a regular suppply of sexy pictures to get his bank account filled. Especially nude or half-nude ones. Nothing strange about him lending a couple of pics from professional sites.

The double-dealer site shows probably a combination of both.

[andrewfi]

Why wouldn't she use different names?

It makes much more sense to do so. Of course if a woman is posting herself on a Russian language prostitution site she is not so likley to bother, but if on an English language one, she is much more likely to bother (if she is aware of the power of search engines.) If neive she might not even think about it. Also, if using different names she can readily identify the source of responses and reply accordingly. I do this all the time in my internet work.

Pictures are hard to search on, it takes a good memory, time and diligence. If discovered a woman can simply say she did not want to have her real name publicised and so used pseudonyms.

Most guys do not search by pictures, it takes a particular type to do that.

Shadow ~ the reality is that many women looking for foreign husbands also serve and service both foreign and local guys on a fee paid basis.

 

 

[Shadow]

Why wouldn't she use different names?

It makes much more sense to do so. Of course if a woman is posting herself on a Russian language prostitution site she is not so likley to bother, but if on an English language one, she is much more likely to bother (if she is aware of the power of search engines.) If neive she might not even think about it. Also, if using different names she can readily identify the source of responses and reply accordingly. I do this all the time in my internet work.

Pictures are hard to search on, it takes a good memory, time and diligence. If discovered a woman can simply say she did not want to have her real name publicised and so used pseudonyms.

Most guys do not search by pictures, it takes a particular type to do that.

Shadow ~ the reality is that many women looking for foreign husbands also serve and service both foreign and local guys on a fee paid basis.

 

 

Andrew, my point is that when you post on DATING site under three different names you will have a hell of a job telling your prospective husband why you gave a false name when applying.

[Admin]

Shadow ~ the reality is that many women looking for foreign husbands also serve and service both foreign and local guys on a fee paid basis.

Andrew,

I think your closing comment is both a bit cynical and a bit overblown.

When you use the phrase "the REALITY is MANY women," you imply knowledge of a sufficiently large sampling to be able to offer a sense of quantification. Are you, in fact, claiming that?? If so, define your basis.

I think it is correct to say - as Sandro has pointed us towards - there is a "reality" this sort of behavior exists. To suggest that "many women" are engaged in it is something of a stretch - but admittedly, I am picking on just a few of your words.

Still, I am curious as to exactly why you think there are "many women" hookers among the women seeking foreign husbands. Are you merely surmising - or do you have something more substantial?

- Dan

[andrewfi]

How many is many? It certainly is not necessarily a majority! For some, one would be too many. For some cultures anything more than four is many. In practical terms the absolute number does not matter. It is what we do with the knowledge and insights that the knowledge brings that is important. Given that I have no ethical or moral issues and that I am most unlikely to marry a woman who is offering herself through a marriage agency, 'many' is an almost irrelevant concept. For a man with deep moral or ethical issues, who is seeking a wife through a marriage agency, many could be as few as a single woman and for a man who unwittingly marries a woman with a past that he would have avoided if he had knowledge, his experience is ALL women that he married are ex-prostitutes.

A large proportion of the women I have met who are actively interested in foreign guys have been purveyors of commercial sexual release. A large proportion of women that I have met who have been members of marriage agencies have also been available commercially.

A large proportion of the many women I have met who are NOT interested in marriage to foreign guys are NOT purveyors of commercial sexual release.

The pedigree of any individual's matrimonial chocie is almost irrelevant (even if they were aware of the truth.)

Proving a negative is usually impossible, becasuse the issues of sampling get in the way. That a proportion of women seeking foreign husbands are also purveyors of sexual favours is simply a demonstrable truth. The absolute values and definitions of proportion I have to leave to researchers with greater resources and interest than I.

But, for what it is worth, my personal contact and mingling with a general population over several years probably gives me a perspective lacking from one who married a woman offered to him through a marriage agency, but I can symapthise with those who would choose to ignore or reduce the perspective that exposure provides. Simply put, my sample size is alsmot certainly greater than almost anyone here and I would surmise based upon what I have read, that those with similar or greater personal samples would be unlikely to, honestly, gainsay that which I have written.

 

[SANDRO43]

Shadow,
I shall contribute my 2 Liras' worth (sorry, € 0,0001 now) of experience here.

I think that the basic reason for double names is VERY simple, i.e. concealing one's past/current "pro" activity. Not many men are attracted to a hooker for a possible wife, and this is the new role they are looking for, considering the difficulties of their jobs and the fact that the smartest ones realise that they cannot go on forever in that activity, due to competition from younger entries in the field.

I do not think that Fat Yuri may be much involved in this, it is mostly a "survival" and "planning for the future" issue, in my opinion. Or, since I worked 30 years for IBM, a matter of "job rotation" :cool:

[Shadow]

Once again, note that I am not talking about multiple names on prostitution sites. It is very common for prostitutes not to use their own name for 'work'.

However when a woman is listed under several different names on dating sites with the same pictures questions rise to the truthfulness of it being the woman in question.

[andrewfi]

Shadow, as noted above...

Given the relatively low chances of an individual woman achieving success (estimated by some to be in the order of 1 in 20) it behoves them to that which is necessary to maximise the oportunity for success. Using different names and different agencies serves to maximise the opportunity for success. At the very least, other than the practical issues raised above, if a woman has more than one 'identity' she appears, to all intents and purposes to be more than one woman. If a woman was known only by a single 'handle' then even a casual searcher would fast uncover all instances of her appearance on the net and thus there is no real benefit in using more than a single advertising outlet. If she has several names then the searcher has as many chances of coming across her and finding perhaps different photos, different profiles, different marketing strategies as there are identities.

You as an individual may not like the reality that somebody is motivated, but for a woman seeking a foreign husband, this is serious. Of course if we then factor in the commercial interests of the different agencies, they want unique 'product'. Thus they need to use different names. For the woman, the outcome is more important than the man. There may be many acceptable men, but probably, except for the pareto girls, only one single chance to attain her goal of finding the foreign man.

Don't beleive, too stongly, in the concept of romantic love as it applies to women for whom the man is both more (and less) than just a man.

[Admin]

But, for what it is worth, my personal contact and mingling with a general population over several years probably gives me a perspective lacking from one who married a woman offered to him through a marriage agency, but I can symapthise with those who would choose to ignore or reduce the perspective that exposure provides. Simply put, my sample size is alsmot certainly greater than almost anyone here and I would surmise based upon what I have read, that those with similar or greater personal samples would be unlikely to, honestly,gainsay that which I have written.

I guess we have the experience of substantial time in the FSU in common, although I have not lived there as you do. I did, however, spend a great proportion of my time in Ukraine from 1998 through 2002 where I met numerous women - and none were through an agency, per se - though I later learned some of them were listed with agencies. I've continued to meet women in the FSU on trips since 2002, just from a different perspective now.

Perhaps it is just the company we keep is different Andrew, but I do not recall any larger proportion of the women I met in the FSU being in the sex trade than the women I have met in the US. Indeed, the only country where I found an unusually high proportion of hookers among those I met was in Indonesia - and that seemed to be largely semi-pro's - not full-time sex workers.

My point is, simply, your earlier comment seemed an exaggeration when I place it in the context of my own experience with FSU women. While it could be that my sampling is inaccurate - it could equally be that yours is.

I think it should suffice that guys ought to know of the possibility of this sort of thing - and most thinking guys are going to have considered the possibility anyway - and they should be alert to warning flags. Anything more, IMO, breeds an unnecessary paranoia.

It's all about being informed and vigilant, without losing perspective.

FWIW

- Dan

[SANDRO43]

Once again, note that I am not talking about multiple names on prostitution sites. It is very common for prostitutes not to use their own name for 'work'.

Shadow, sorry, I misread your append. Again in my experience, different names on DATING sites for the same girl are usually due to an ongoing scamming activity (you shall see that forthcoming Elena Mardanova uses 3 different names and ages on her 3 dating sites). So, concealment ("maskirovka"  was a popular concept  in the USSR:cool:) is again the primary motivation.

I think Andrewfin's suggestion of "advanced mail record-keeping" is possible only in a minority of cases, most  of these girls are rather PC-illiterate.

[andrewfi]

Dan, it was not I who came up with the figure for the proportions of Russian women who had indulged in commercial sex. Neither you nor I are likley to have the opportunity to research such things, but if anything close to the truth, and iff applicable to other FSu countries, given their economic and social similarities, it would give the lie to your assertion in respect of your experiences. (not that you are telling anything other than your perception of your experiences - most women do not advertise their 'work' although many in their immediate community tend to know what is happening.)

As I noted, in my experience, I know, there is a greater tendency to be interested in foreign guys for marriage among those I know to be, or have been involved in commercial sex than the contrary.

 As I already noted, trying to the prove the negative as you are doing is almost impossible, the converse is simply demonstrable by reference to the empirical data on this board. The ONLY discussion objectively available is the definition of many and that, absent agreement onterms, is, as I demonstrated, pretty much impossible.

Marriage to a relatively well off foreigner is simply a good exit strategy for a woman in the sex trade; along with real estate investment, beauty salons, or marriage to a guy from a relatively distant community.

[SANDRO43]

Dan, I have never been to a FSU country personally, so my knowledge of the impact of prostitution there is only Internet-derived.

However it  leads me to think that MOSCOW  is really a hot bed for it. The following page on my website :

http://www.floriani.it/sitirussi/sitirussipro-eng.htm

lists some 140+ Russian hooker sites with a total of 20,000+ profiles, and the majority of them are Moscow-based. It seems a rather substantial figure, even for a city with millions of inhabitants. SPB has nothing comparable. Also, many SPB hookers usually specify they are quite willing to commute to Moscow for business

[andrewfi]

Just a thought, for what it is worth.

Becsue the end result of a favourable impression upon a potential client in both MOB and prostitution sites is a personal meeting, one might assume that both ahd an equal dependence upon accurate photos (if not bio data) I think that this is not quite the case. In commercial sex the end point is fast reached and thus real pics are probably more important.

At least one sex site www.dosug.nu has an opportunity for clients both certify the veracity of the photos and to review performance. These are both attributes missing from MOB sites, perhaps for obvious reasons. The following link is not entirely work safe:http://findv.com/x.php?1km and has an additonal surprise...

Inessence, if an MOB site was claiming to be hoodwinked, I would be inclined to believe, on the balance of probablilities that the escort site was the original source of the pics; leaving just the choice as to whether to believe the woman is actually a member of the MOB site or not.

[Admin]

[user=986]SANDRO43[/user] wrote:

Dan, I have never been to a FSU country personally, so my knowledge of the impact of prostitution there is only Internet-derived.

However it  leads me to think that MOSCOW  is really a hot bed for it. The following page on my website :

http://www.floriani.it/sitirussi/sitirussipro-eng.htm

lists some 140+ Russian hooker sites with a total of 20,000+ profiles, and the majority of them are Moscow-based. It seems a rather substantial figure, even for a city with millions of inhabitants. SPB has nothing comparable.

Yeah - my comments were not aimed at the overall state of prostitution in the FSU. My guess is that prostitution is alive and well in most parts of the FSU. I would further guess it is not so widespread in FSU countries as it is in some Asian countries. But who knows?

Elen will probably jump in to tell you that those 20,000 hookers in Moscow are predominantly from Ukraine. But who knows?

And that is my point. We do not know. Not Andrew - not Elen - and not me. All of us are commenting based on a limited set of experiences and with some deductive reasoning.

Does prostitution exist in the FSU? I'd bet a LOT of money the answer is YES.

Do prostitutes join international dating sites? Same answer.

Are there "many" FSU hookers looking to link up with western guys. Same answer. In fact, I suspect that hookers don't care much what passport a guy has - so long as his money is good.

And now the question comes down to - what does a guy do with that information?

My suggestion is to be informed and aware, but do not let it dominate your thoughts or create fear and paranoia. This is just one more bit of data amongst a vast library of data needed to circumnavigate this process successfully. But that is just my suggestion.

- Dan

[SANDRO43]

Dan, I was VERY careful in my statement  : I said "the majority of them are Moscow-based", not "Muscovites" or "Moscow-born".  So you may reassure Elen, no slander intended for true Russians (1/4 of my blood is Russian, anyway, due to a paternal grandmother )

Incidentally, Happy Easter everybody (it's already pastr midnight here)

[jb]

Is there prostitution in Moscow? Yes.
Is there prostitution in all the rest of the FSY? Yes.
Do prostitutes advertise themselves on MOB sites? Obviously yes.

How old are these girls practicing the world's oldest profession?  I did a quick scan of the hooker sites listed here as well as many of the sites linked to the main source, (I can deal with Russian so I might have dug a bit deeper than most), but the average age of the girls listed was between 19 and 24.  Very young and tender morsels indeed.  Many were absolutely stunners.  I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess those aging pros between the age of 25-30 are the gals who would most like to retire to a foreign country where no one knows about their past. 

Perhaps a discussion about what possible red flags to look for would be a constructive direction for this thread to continue.  That they exist within the MOB catalog folds is a given, how to seperate the good from the bad might help the uninitiated searchers.  We do have the good old "Tablets of Stone".  Maybe to rewite or revise a bit?

Just a thought.

[SANDRO43]

How old are these girls practicing the world's oldest profession? I did a quick scan of the hooker sites listed here as well as many of the sites linked to the main source, (I can deal with Russian so I might have dug a bit deeper than most), but the average age of the girls listed was between 19 and 24. Very young and tender morsels indeed.Many were absolutely stunners. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess those aging pros between the age of 25-30 are the gals who would most like to retire to a foreign country where no one knows about their past.

JB, bear in mind that age stated on "pro" sites is very unreliable, for at least two reasons :

1. I don't believe any verification is made by site owners (why should they care ?).
2. Only "age" is shown (and probably requested), never "birth date" as on many dating sites, which use it to recalculate current age when a profile is displayed (on my page I use the two sets of age figures to calculate an approximate "service seniority"). So the age you see is what they gave when they registered at the site, and never updated subsequently.
 
As for specific "red flags", I would venture :

1. Photos : mid to high-level hookers use photos of obvious professional make (poses, lighting, backdrops, studio setting, etc.) which must be costly, so they try to re-use the same photos on dating sites, too. The smartest ones use the less "revealing" shots, nudity-wise, or manage to cut away the more compromising parts. Lower-level hookers usually exhibit cruder, amateur photos taken in their home environment, often posing scantily clad on their beds.  

2. Desired partner age : a young girl looking for a 50+ y.o. hubbie is "mildly" suspect , particularly if she is a stunner. This applies to scammers as well.

[andrewfi]

Many hookers seem to live in 'dog years'. They get old fast. Some carry on for years, but in general I think you can believe the ages on the websites. The older women often service the foreign punters, we have lower standards.

jb's suggestion about the career path is, IME about spot on, although there are quite a few in their 30's and 40's still seeking a guy. For many passport remains an issue. It offers remoteness, perceived economic benefit and as with ALL the women I have met who are actively seeking a foreign husband, bragging rights among their peers.

Things are not the same as in your home country.