B.S. 101

[Gylden]

That is great, however I have read enough to know that Moscow and Saint Petersburg are considered a different country than Russia. These cities are a huge contrast to the rest of the FSU in general.
I think you are right in saying you are living in a bubble.
 

[SANDRO43]

weekly sushi lunches with friends and Volkswagens.

Are German cars regarded as fashionable luncheon partners in SPB ? Wouldn't Toyotas or Hondas be more appropriate for sushi ?

[Belvis]

That is great, however I have read enough to know that Moscow and Saint Petersburg are considered a different country than Russia. These cities are a huge contrast to the rest of the FSU in general.

These cities may be a different country than the rest of Russia, however, no supprise, people is still of the same tribe, with the same ideas, perceptions and life priorities. Likely Eduard has the most broad experience in dealing with RW from all over Russia. As far as I remember his words the wish to emigrate for RW was  the deal breaker in 80% of initial introductions. Of course, we're talking about female population as the whole, RW at MOB sites have different aspirations.

[Misha]

Cultural relativism is the biggest B.S. ever, and it was cooked up by a bunch of intellectually dishonest scholars. By the way, modern anthropologists like Donald Brown have completely gutted this hogwash and collated all the common behaviors human beings share. Turns out we are all human and essentially the same. Linked is the complete list: http://www.robotwisdom.com/ai/universals.html Another book of the same vein is "The Blank Slate" by Steven Pinker, which argues humans are not blank slates upon which the environment is the total deciding factor. (More on which later.)

Cultural relativism is opposed to ethnocentric behaviour whereby individuals judge all cultures based on their own culture. That is to say, an ethnocentric point of view will see others cultures as inferior because they don't do things exactly as they do. As for the the idea that all humans are essentially the same, I have read over the list on the site you provided. Most are quite vague and include things such as "mourning." Yes, I agree that all people across the planet will mourn, but HOW they mourn will vary from one culture to the next and that is the rub as Shakespeare would have said...


I do agree with you that too many men write off bad behaviour as cultural and are too prone to believing that people in the FSU are soooooooo different from those in their country. I also agree that there are differences between individuals. However, I would not fall into the other extreme which would be to say for example that people in Russia are exactly the same as those in Canada, the United States or Great Britain, except that they just speak a different language...

[Misha]

[size=78%]Can we, in reality, expect that a woman will give up everything to live with a man in a foreign country?  If we do expect so, why then should a man not expect to give up his conveniences and his toys for a similar commitment abroad?[/size]

One reason comes to mind: the expectations that many (most, nearly all) women in the FSU and elsewhere will have that their husbands work and hopefully have a career of some sort... Not all men (and I would even say few men) are capable of moving to another country and have a job that is equal to what they have at home or a career that would be equal to what they have at home.

[Gylden]

" For the last 20 years, the number of Russians who want to emigrate has grown from 5 percent to 20 percent, according to a Russian Public Opinion Research Center (VCIOM) pool conducted from June 4-5 in 46 Russian regions. According to the received data, 21 percent of 1,600 interviewed citizens wish to get a constant residence abroad. Groups between 18-24 years old (39 percent) as well as highly educated respondents (29 percent) and active Internet users (33 percent) showed the greatest interest in emigration.
Meanwhile, the main groups of Russians who said they wouldn’t like to settle in another country are the country’s elderly (92 percent) and barely literate citizens (85 percent) as well as those that don’t use the Internet (87 percent).
“About one-third of well-educated and well-to-do residents of big cities interviewed within the year expressed their wish to leave the country,” head of sociological firm Levada-center Alexey Grazhdankin said, referring to results of several polls, conducted by the center. At the same time he warns that it is a relative figure."
 
http://russia-briefing.com/news/study-shows-more-than-20-of-russians-wish-to-emigrate.html/

[jone]

One reason comes to mind: the expectations that many (most, nearly all) women in the FSU and elsewhere will have that their husbands work and hopefully have a career of some sort... Not all men (and I would even say few men) are capable of moving to another country and have a job that is equal to what they have at home or a career that would be equal to what they have at home.

I was hoping someone would swallow the bait.  This should probably be an entirely separate thread as it involves a singular question that men must answer for themselves before they seek an FSU wife. 

Misha, you are, of course, absolutely correct.  How could an attorney or a medical doctor hope to transport himself to an FSU country to have even a prayer at a profession?  Many jobs are only relative to the setting or economy that they are in.  (Could you imagine a Realtor trying to break into an FSU market?)

Yet I have talked, in my discussions, to many professional women that have stated that they would give up their hard earned credentials to move to a Western Country.  To me, this is a monumental sacrifice.    Yet many men think that they are going to trot into an FSU country and in one or two visits uproot their future spouse and bring her back to his country as quick as you can say 'Bob's your Uncle'.

It is improbable that a man could live, immediately, in an FSU country.  It is equally improbable that a woman would immediately be able to make the opposite switch.

So, I ask again, what sacrifices is a man truly willing to make to marry an FSU woman (or for that matter, any woman he loves and wishes to marry)?

[Gylden]

IMO there is no "sacrifice" there is give and take, with a mutually benificial result.

[Ranetka]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4257682/48-of-Brits-want-to-get-out-of-Britain-says-new-Sun-survey.html


ALMOST half of all Britons are “seriously considering” moving overseas, an exclusive survey for The Sun has found.Australia is top of the relocation wish list followed by the US, Canada and New Zealand.
The cost of living, weather, unemployment and crime are the most common reasons for wanting to quit Britain.Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/4257682/48-of-Brits-want-to-get-out-of-Britain-says-new-Sun-survey.html#ixzz2KVVMWaJb



I know it's only a Sun survey but still...Public perception is one thing, reality is different. People might answer the survey "yes I want to emigrate" but will they actually make this move after a bit more in-depth research?


Myself is a very good example. 10 years ago I thought Russia to be a horrible country with no future  for me. Now I know it had never been the case. I moved to the UK thinking that would be good for me, now I am applying for every suitable job in Russia and will definitely move back after I qualified.


As we talked about it in the other thread Americans with their inflated sense of how good their country is will probably never understand that moaning and complaining about one's country all the time does not actually mean someone would want to move even if the opportunity arises.

[Misha]

It is equally improbable that a woman would immediately be able to make the opposite switch.

So, I ask again, what sacrifices is a man truly willing to make to marry an FSU woman (or for that matter, any woman he loves and wishes to marry)?

Yes, but it is also quite acceptable for a woman to put other priorities first, notably family. We met one woman from St. Petersburg yesterday and she has not worked since immigrating to Canada seven years ago. She had two children and stayed at home with them. Now, she is training for a job that is not as prestigious as she had, but that does not seem to be a problem for her. I imagine the reaction here and there if a man decided to stay at home six years looking after the children while his wife worked.... I am sure it must have happened, but it would be quite the rare exception...

[Belvis]

For the last 20 years, the number of Russians who want to emigrate has grown from 5 percent to 20 percent, according to a Russian Public Opinion Research Center (VCIOM) pool conducted from June 4-5 in 46 Russian regions.

Lol, Eduard was accurate. If we believe the pool results the number of russians who want to emigrate is significantly smaller the number of Britons. Denmark seems to be a nice place to settle 
http://www.gallup.com/poll/145208/One-Three-Britons-Leave.aspx

[Ranetka]

Ha ha. Belvis found a proper survey. Yeah Brits is another nation who luuuurve bitching about their country. Will the majority really move out? Nah....Very similar to Russians in that respect.

[Misha]

Lol, Eduard was accurate. If we believe the pool results the number of russians who want to emigrate is significantly smaller the number of Britons. Denmark seems to be a nice place to settle 
http://www.gallup.com/poll/145208/One-Three-Britons-Leave.aspx

Well, the Brits chose countries where the dominant language is English. I wonder what the percentage would have been if they had to move to a country where they would have to live and work in another language  If there were a few countries such as Australia with nice beaches and good economies where the dominant language was Russian, I expect that there would be more Russians interested saying to a random telephone survey that they want to emigrate 

[Daveman]

...

To those of you contemplating an FSUW, consider the level of commitment that you bring to a relationship.  Is it enough to make it work?  Or are you depending on your wife to make those sacrifices?

Though let's not forget - unrequited commitment is a spectrum - on one end lies the doormat and at the other - stalking! 

[Lily]

Well, the Brits chose countries where the dominant language is English. I wonder what the percentage would have been if they had to move to a country where they would have to live and work in another language  If there were a few countries such as Australia with nice beaches and good economies where the dominant language was Russian, I expect that there would be more Russians interested saying to a random telephone survey that they want to emigrate 

Misha, I think that a common language would be a major engine for emigration from Russia. After 1917, how many educated Russians ended up in France? You know why?

   How could an attorney or a medical doctor hope to transport himself to an FSU country to have even a prayer at a profession?  Many jobs are only relative to the setting or economy that they are in.  (Could you imagine a Realtor trying to break into an FSU market?)

Yet I have talked, in my discussions, to many professional women that have stated that they would give up their hard earned credentials to move to a Western Country.  To me, this is a monumental sacrifice.    Yet many men think that they are going to trot into an FSU country and in one or two visits uproot their future spouse and bring her back to his country as quick as you can say 'Bob's your Uncle'.
 

On the point of professional transfers from the West into the FSU, I'd say that the problem would be not quite in necessity to start fron scratch but mostly rather in lack of transparency on how the similar things are done there in the same kind of work. Often, the professional transplants fail only because they cannot capture, or cannot accept the FSU practices. The Russian hurdles are not in the extra studies, exams or licensing which ar eunderstandable. They are mostly in a strange, hidden, weird tracks of doing even the trivial things. The Western life is reasonably orgtanized, while the Russian one is not.

In my experienced view, the hurdles for a RW to establish herself in her profession in the West are a bit exaggerated. For a comparison, to arrange documents for a purchase of vehicle in the FSU could be nearly as complicated as getting some work license for an individual in the U.S. RW are used to put considerable efforts, to overcome many small, invisible or artificial hurdles in order to obtain things that are fairly straightforward in the U.S. To have to study for some extra exams for your license, do you call it sacrifice? LMAO 
 
 

[Kunstkammer]

That is great, however I have read enough to know that Moscow and Saint Petersburg are considered a different country than Russia. These cities are a huge contrast to the rest of the FSU in general.
I think you are right in saying you are living in a bubble.

Which was my point, so thinking using only to people who are actively seeking international marriage is a general representation of a whole country.  And it is also living in a bubble if you think nobody ever returns home on their own accord.


Its like taking a poll at a basketball game "Do you like basketball, yes or no?" and using the data as a sample for the general population.

[Misha]

Misha, I think that a common language would be a major engine for emigration from Russia. After 1917, how many educated Russians ended up in France? You know why?

Let's see, the nobility in Russia generally spent much time in France and other European countries and had governesses or private teachers that taught them French and other languages practically from birth... Pushkin, for example, was nicknamed the Frenchman 

[Shadow]

Well, the Brits chose countries where the dominant language is English. I wonder what the percentage would have been if they had to move to a country where they would have to live and work in another language  If there were a few countries such as Australia with nice beaches and good economies where the dominant language was Russian, I expect that there would be more Russians interested saying to a random telephone survey that they want to emigrate 

Well there is quite a large Russian population in Israel, up to a point where they do not speak the local language....
As for populations of Russian, Germany has about 4 million of them, France also a good deal. And currently they are buying properties all over Greece, Spain and other souterhn countries.
Those who wish to emigrate that I know seem to first choose a location in the EU due to less travel distance and more opportunities for family to visit.
But of course we all have our own bubble.

[Misha]

As for populations of Russian, Germany has about 4 million of them

My wife has extended kin in Germany, and we visit them quite often. Of course, most were ethnic Germans and their families still spoke German in the USSR and Russia or Kazakhstan...

[Lily]

German language is and was not as popular among the educated Russians as the French language was some 100 or 150 years ago. The number of Russian speaing immigrants in Germany would be, IMO, a result of relative openness of the German immigration politics for certain groups of people coupled with the relative geographic proximity of the countries.

[noelscot]

I don't drink nor do I passively walk around with my head down, hell I'm even involved in the ultras subculture far from 'keeping my head down' and Russia is still fine by me.  Again back to your point #2 - everybody is different.  If you need to be drunk and passively avoid contact with everyday people to be in Russia, I can see why you wouldn't want to live here.

I was making a joke. Maybe go have a beer with the ultras and enjoy Moskva.

[jone]

IMO there is no "sacrifice" there is give and take, with a mutually benificial result.

Once in a relationship there is give and take.  But so many men are thinking that they will waltz into an FSU country and make their selection, like choosing an item off a menu, and waltz back to their home country in time for cornflakes. 

Yes, but it is also quite acceptable for a woman to put other priorities first, notably family. We met one woman from St. Petersburg yesterday and she has not worked since immigrating to Canada seven years ago. She had two children and stayed at home with them. Now, she is training for a job that is not as prestigious as she had, but that does not seem to be a problem for her. I imagine the reaction here and there if a man decided to stay at home six years looking after the children while his wife worked.... I am sure it must have happened, but it would be quite the rare exception...

If a woman is of child bearing age and wants to have children, or if she already has them, then it makes sense, if a man can support her without working, for her to move to his country to have or raise children.   It is a natural tendency for her.   But even then, the man is changing, significantly a lifestyle and most have no idea of what they are getting into.  International marriage has wonderful rewards, but many challenges as well.

Though let's not forget - unrequited commitment is a spectrum - on one end lies the doormat and at the other - stalking! 

Hopefully there is some type of commitment there.  My reason for suggesting this deviation from the topic thread was to remind everyone of the huge commitment at hand and that it is a life changing event.  Even if there is no success in finding your mate.

We have all seen that certain contributors to this forum have the propensity to obsess over a desired mate that does not share the same feelings, and the resulting punitive or stalking actions that ensue. 

My ultimate thoughts are that this is a wonderful adventure.  But, like all great adventurers, when you leave your house, you must expect that your adventures will change your life.  It is easier to make those changes if you are willing to give up the things that have held you tethered to one place and one state of mind.

[Kunstkammer]

I was making a joke. Maybe go have a beer with the ultras and enjoy Moskva.

I have no interest in visiting Tajikistan.

[Shadow]

I have no interest in visiting Tajikistan.

Why not ? I heard it has wonderful nature. And... wonderful nature.

[Chicagoguy]

Russia is indeed a different place than when I first visited in 1992. I still saw some Hammer and Sickle flags back then. It was a tough time for everybody  then.
My wife is still a Russian at heart and goes home every year to see everyone and live the live she loved. It was only her distaste of Russian men that brought her here. That and the lack of men. She was 53 when we met and claimed many men were already dead.
So I do not believe this "desperate" stuff. That was then. This is now.