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Author Topic: The Struggle For Ukraine  (Read 287429 times)

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Offline Grumpy

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The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #450 on: February 19, 2022, 04:03:58 PM »
Photo Essay:  (no big words to gaagle)

http://www.theatlantic.com/photo/2022/02/photos-ukraine-soldiers-and-civilians-prepare-possible-invasion/622841/

Link posted to avoid copyright issues and pictures too large for this websites format.
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Offline Trenchcoat

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The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #451 on: February 19, 2022, 04:26:46 PM »
It seems that Zelensky wants answers.  I would suspect that NATO isn't really interested in having Ukraine as a part of their commitment. 
Zelensky is also demanding that the US say exactly what the sanctions will be for Russia should they invade.   I wonder if Zelensky is speaking from his own mouth, or the US has asked him to make the statements.   


Zelensky: Ukraine wants 'clear' time frame for NATO membership

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on Saturday asked NATO and the European Union (EU) for a firm and "honest" answer on his country's prospects for entry into the alliance at the Munich Security Conference.....
http://news.yahoo.com/zelensky-ukraine-wants-clear-timeframe-162724254.html?fr=sycsrp_catchall 

Fathertime!

We've given them tank busting equipment that looks like it's really just soil pipes with a fancy end on, lets hope for their sake it's not! The Germans have given them Nazi style helmets to re-enact some great WWII battles with, what more could they possibly want???

Well I think the joining the EU prospect has now gone, a definite non-starter. EU Members won't want an entanglement issue quite so close to their doorstep. The EU doesn't have the money to take them onboard with the UK leaving and then the virus. There's no way the EU is going to take on Ukraine with all its issues. Only possible way would be for the EU to totally rethink it's economic model, basically to just have a free trade zone and stop trying to pass money from here to there, to basically stop requiring countries to be and get up to a certain level of economic development. I think the only reason Zelensky is wanting into the EU is first to get some military protection since a war one is deemed a war on all and secondly to help out the sh*t state Ukraine's economy must now be getting into - think cost of conflict, virus impact and now blockaded ports and no flights.

I personally don't think EU member states will want a member that will embroil them all in war. A definite no go on that one.

NATO well that might be an easier one for Zelensky to aim for but I think he is right in NATO members not wanting a a country that will immediately plunge them into a warm Remembering of course some of these members are in Eastern Europe so they'll be on the forefront of it all being hammered hard quite likely. It would of course bring objection from Russia and god knows how they would react, WWIII maybe?

I think Zelensky is basically losing it now, he's freaking out as  war is imminent and he knows it's not looking at all good and is without anyone to really help him out.

It really does look that Russia is starting to manoeuvre in Eastern Ukraine for a reason for war by stating that Ukraine is causing genocide by shelling people's homes so they basically had to step in, of course :-\

It looks like Russia has quickly moved up forces to bring the invasion force to 150,000 to 190,000 or more.

Basically Putin has never acted in a trustworthy way, dissenters being thrown out of windows, poisoned, jailed, executed, Russian athletes doping, intervention in Syria to prop up a vicious tyrant, etc, etc. I don't think Putin's intention fir Ukraine is to walk away, not this time, he's got it in to invade, he doesn't care about the west just what he wants to do so he'll invade for sure and I reckon we are very close to that now. A but more noise about the 'genocide' in the Donbas to sound like there is a significant problem there then he'll go in. Likely within a day or so I reckon, I just get the impression it's really, really close now!
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Offline Trenchcoat

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The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #452 on: February 19, 2022, 04:40:04 PM »
BBC News - Ukraine: Russia plans biggest war in Europe since 1945 - Boris Johnson
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60448162
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Offline ML

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« Reply #453 on: February 19, 2022, 04:47:40 PM »
Ukrainian President Zelensky speaks at Munich Security Conference, February 19, 2022

"Ukraine is longing for peace. Europe is longing for peace. The world is saying it doesn’t want any war, while Russia is claiming she doesn’t want to intervene. Someone here is lying," Zelensky said, before receiving a standing ovation.

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Offline Muzh

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« Reply #454 on: February 19, 2022, 05:25:46 PM »

I personally don't think EU member states will want a member that will embroil them all in war. A definite no go on that one.



Kinda late for the Baltic states and Poland.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline fathertime

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The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #455 on: February 19, 2022, 06:17:40 PM »
   

I think Zelensky is basically losing it now, he's freaking out as  war is imminent and he knows it's not looking at all good and is without anyone to really help him out.

  I don't think Putin's intention fir Ukraine is to walk away, not this time, he's got it in to invade, he doesn't care about the west just what he wants to do so he'll invade for sure and I reckon we are very close to that now. A but more noise about the 'genocide' in the Donbas to sound like there is a significant problem there then he'll go in. Likely within a day or so I reckon, I just get the impression it's really, really close now!

Despite what Biden is saying publicly, I think the US would be good with Russia taking a little bite out of Ukraine....just so long as it leads to sanctions and termination of the Nord stream 2.   With all the 'imminent' rhetoric coming from the US, my belief is we are trying to bait Putin.  When he doesn't invade it will be spun that we stared Russia/Putin down.  That would be our false consolation instead of shutting down the pipeline.
Perhaps seeing the phoniness of the US, nations like Brazil are standing with Russia. 

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Offline GQBlues

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« Reply #456 on: February 19, 2022, 06:20:54 PM »
I feel incredibly bad for these Ukrainians. Joe Biden and his party NEED this war very badly. Both for military industry push and for their dying political state. A proxy war this magnitude, especially against the US's longtime boogeyman - Russia - will undoubtedly swing Americans attitude and sentiment this coming midterm election. Nothing like sacrificing Ukrainian blood, as far as the US is concerned, to boost ratings Biden/Harris desperately needs.

The US had now gone from 'we will not intervene and will direly sanction Russian if they attack - to "we will act swiftly and decisively if Russia attacked!". Now why exactly should 'we' be front and center in the silly conflict, is utterly beyond silly to me.


So next time you see a US serviceman, think twice before you thank them, make no mistake about this, they had become nothing more than just fucking paid mercenaries/murderers. They're not 'serving our nation', or 'protection our homeland'. Not thousands of miles from our border. They're being used as sacrificial pawns once again to advance our mindless political agendas.

Another thing I found mystifying in the Munich conference was, why the heck in the midst of all this, is Zelensky asking for 'significant economic assistance' from the US? WHAT-THE-FUCK-IS-THAT-ABOUT? What made the US a chief source of monies for Ukraine? Why the hell is the US automatically at the end of a carrot stick, and in a volatile time like this to boot?

Someone, maybe more than one, is getting played in a major way in this stupidity.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2022, 06:40:42 PM by GQBlues »
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Offline Jumper1

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The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #457 on: February 19, 2022, 08:06:34 PM »
Thank or dont thank whoever you want.

Not one has asked thanks.

Try to get a grip there, when someone joins any u.s. service, they are signing up to defend our country, or its interests abroad.
They have zero choice once in,so if an administration they joined under changes drastically, it's still their commander and chief .
It doesn't make them simply paid mercenaries just because u. s  foreign policy changes or sucks during their stint.
I think the usa makes horrid foreign policy choices..and should concentrate on issues internally
So i know and understand you'll have 486 justifications for that sentiment , , but
Flock  right off with that bs.


Offline Jumper1

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The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #458 on: February 19, 2022, 08:13:00 PM »
As far as why money is brought up in regards to the* usa in Ukraine*, you really already know.
There is a standing pres (past vp) who had his son in a cushy job there with no skills, you had millions missing in various funds siphoned off and  passed thru one of the countries best at laundering money.
Russian collusion at its finest.
Ukraine is just another suicide,nothing ties up.old loose ends like a war



Offline Trenchcoat

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The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #459 on: February 20, 2022, 03:32:06 AM »

Kinda late for the Baltic states and Poland.

All are NATO countries also and have NATO troops stationed there. Putin won't invade those countries as they have a sitting NATO troop presence already there. The line has been drawn in the sand for those countries at their border. If Putin attacked them it would being in both NATO and the whole if the EU, essentially WWIII. That's a more difficult one for Putin as Britain, France & the US have nuclear weapons and NATO. & the EU much stronger military, so how would that play out for Putin? He doesn't know that even if he wins he wouldn't get nuked and lose, and at which point?

Putin will be familiar with the old Iron Curtain concept so I think he'll see a new Iron Curtain there. I think odds are he'll attack other weak countries like Georgia that are far easier to pick off and retake the Stans one way or another. For him that will be greater Russia back together again. The Eastern Bloc was always kind of an addition and previous to the Soviet Union not a part of Russia so I don't think he'll be too bothered about them.

Think also he'll have his work cut out stationing troops in those newly taken over countries and depending on how he goes about it keeping insurgencies and terrorism down so I don't think he'll have his hands free to worry about the former Eastern Bloc countries by that stage.

Winter Olympics end today so now just the wait and see. The end of the Olympics was thought by one Ukrainian General to be the likely moment, so tonight, tommorow night, who knows. Best scenario for us if they do invade is that any Puppet government that comes forward will have a degree of autonomy and not just be an extension of Russian government/territory. So Ukraine would be a bit like Belarus and with a bit of luck we'll still get the visa free situation.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2022, 03:58:09 AM by Trenchcoat »
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Offline fathertime

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The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #460 on: February 20, 2022, 05:40:52 AM »

Putin will be familiar with the old Iron Curtain concept so I think he'll see a new Iron Curtain there. I think odds are he'll attack other weak countries like Georgia that are far easier to pick off and retake the Stans one way or another. For him that will be greater Russia back together again. The Eastern Bloc was always kind of an addition and previous to the Soviet Union not a part of Russia so I don't think he'll be too bothered about them.
Another morning I wake up to no attack of Ukraine, the Stans, Georgia, etc....despite the US attempted agitation and involvement in a region we don't belong in.   I don't really think Russia needs to do any attacking.  If they stay their course, they are about to do well for themselves with their new pipeline. 

All that said, if they were facing sanctions, loss of pipeline, and financial war...well they may decide their best course is to go big and take all of Ukraine and it's resources.  Accept the consequences, align with their friend partners and write off the west.   As unjust as it is, the vast majority of Americans don't know/care about Ukraine, for most the nation is merely a pawn or a buzzword (If that) and the people in Ukraine would pay dearly for a little advancement on the chessboard.  People here for obvious reasons are far more attached to the situation, and rightfully so. 

When nations such as China/Russia start to make business headway in the world, the US is right there to try to thwart them.  With China we suddenly 'care' a great deal about ethnic minorities in their country.  My belief is this is all coming down the dollars/yuan/rubles.    We in the US haven't developed our own industries adequately and may no longer have the capacity to, so sticking sticks in the tires of other nations is our go to move recently.  Provoking conflict seems to be our preferred method of advancement....just so long as its other nations young people who are on the front line.   Meanwhile our young people are free to 'party', smoke dope, pose on instragram, and be tough guys in the rap culture! 



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Offline Chelseaboy

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The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #461 on: February 20, 2022, 07:19:21 AM »
Whilst i agree with a lot of your post...it's Russia who's doing all the provoking with all their miltary surrounding the Ukraine border.
Just saying it like it is.

Offline Sailor291

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« Reply #462 on: February 20, 2022, 08:21:59 AM »
I feel incredibly bad for these Ukrainians. Joe Biden and his party NEED this war very badly. Both for military industry push and for their dying political state. A proxy war this magnitude, especially against the US's longtime boogeyman - Russia - will undoubtedly swing Americans attitude and sentiment this coming midterm election. Nothing like sacrificing Ukrainian blood, as far as the US is concerned, to boost ratings Biden/Harris desperately needs.

The US had now gone from 'we will not intervene and will direly sanction Russian if they attack - to "we will act swiftly and decisively if Russia attacked!". Now why exactly should 'we' be front and center in the silly conflict, is utterly beyond silly to me.


So next time you see a US serviceman, think twice before you thank them, make no mistake about this, they had become nothing more than just fucking paid mercenaries/murderers. They're not 'serving our nation', or 'protection our homeland'. Not thousands of miles from our border. They're being used as sacrificial pawns once again to advance our mindless political agendas.

Another thing I found mystifying in the Munich conference was, why the heck in the midst of all this, is Zelensky asking for 'significant economic assistance' from the US? WHAT-THE-FUCK-IS-THAT-ABOUT? What made the US a chief source of monies for Ukraine? Why the hell is the US automatically at the end of a carrot stick, and in a volatile time like this to boot?

Someone, maybe more than one, is getting played in a major way in this stupidity.

As someone that spent over 20 years proudly serving the United States Navy, I find your comments particularly ignorant and insulting.  I despise Sleepy Joe, but take great offense at you!!

Offline GQBlues

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The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #463 on: February 20, 2022, 10:16:33 AM »
As someone that spent over 20 years proudly serving the United States Navy, I find your comments particularly ignorant and insulting.  I despise Sleepy Joe, but take great offense at you!!

Ignorant?!? Remember arming the KLA, a group we classified as terrorists, so they could attack the Serbs, and when fighting breaks out, WE bombed Serbia’s civilians. For what? Break out Yugoslavia so NATO can advance. Who the heck do you think is aiding Saudi and Al Qaeda in Yemen? Al Qaeda ferchrissakes! Same phucking group behind 911. You know which group is also the recipients of US/ western arms being imported to Ukraine? The Azov militants.  Freaking neo-nazi group.

Biden is but a small part of the recent US murderous global excursion. You think my statement is offensive, have you ever considered what Libyans, Iraqis, afghans, Serbians et al think? Or such realities doesn’t bother your sensibilities much?


Yet, here we are again, front and center in stoking another unnecessary military engagement in matters that have absolutely no threat to us, yet making it all about us once more. At the expense of whose lives all over again?

You served for 20 years and you actually believe our global military excursions post WWII have all been for merit and honor?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2022, 10:42:27 AM by GQBlues »
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Offline Trenchcoat

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The Struggle For Ukraine
« Reply #464 on: February 20, 2022, 10:48:52 AM »
It's On!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10532793/Secretary-State-Blinken-DoD-Chief-Austin-say-threat-Russian-invasion-deadly-serious.html

Apparently Putin has given the order to Invade now!

Russian troops have now received the order and are apparently finalising their first ground manoeuvres into Ukraine. Sounds like it will be any moment now, a matter of hours perhaps and they will cross they'll attack.

As far as I see it, it will be missile and air attacks first, knock out the small Ukrainian airforce and gain air superiority right away. Also target what they can off Ukrainian troops and installations on the ground including power stations.

The Winter Olympic closing ceremony has taken place now so it's only a matter of time it looks before Russian forces engage. My guess is that the Russian Generals will have a time agreed to begin the attack from all sides at once.
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Offline GQBlues

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« Reply #465 on: February 20, 2022, 11:07:50 AM »
Quote from: joe the idiot
"If Russia decides to invade, that would also have consequences here at home. But the American people understand that defending democracy and liberty is never without cost. "I will not pretend this will be painless."

The consequential reality here at home is, this idiot have no clue how to reverse the effects of nearly 8% inflation, record breaking crime, his dying political platform, numerous lawsuits being filed on student debts, etc.

Ukraine is a sacrificial token to serve his idiotic purposes. Who the fuck voted for this idiot!
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline John Gaunt

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« Reply #466 on: February 20, 2022, 12:37:14 PM »
It's On!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10532793/Secretary-State-Blinken-DoD-Chief-Austin-say-threat-Russian-invasion-deadly-serious.html

Apparently Putin has given the order to Invade now!

Russian troops have now received the order and are apparently finalising their first ground manoeuvres into Ukraine. Sounds like it will be any moment now, a matter of hours perhaps and they will cross they'll attack.

As far as I see it, it will be missile and air attacks first, knock out the small Ukrainian airforce and gain air superiority right away. Also target what they can off Ukrainian troops and installations on the ground including power stations.

The Winter Olympic closing ceremony has taken place now so it's only a matter of time it looks before Russian forces engage. My guess is that the Russian Generals will have a time agreed to begin the attack from all sides at once.
So says General Trench, the basement warrior.
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Offline fathertime

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« Reply #467 on: February 20, 2022, 03:06:29 PM »
Ted Cruz what a political hack, war lover, and idiot.    I don't at all mind him calling out Bisen, but at least make some sense in making the argument.

How does his logic make sense here?   If Putin had taken Ukraine it would also be in possession of the pipelines and would not have needed nordstream 2.  , Russia probably would have made the pipelines a high priority so even if Ukraine destroyed some of it, they could have rebuilt pretty quick if they wanted to.  Numbnut cruz also fails to mention that Russian gas won't be bought in Europe regardless of which pipeline were used if he were to invade Ukraine.    Russia belt Nordsteam 2 to avoid the 2 billion in transit fees paid to Ukraine. They probably also don't want the US/Ukraine to hold their gas hostage during unrelated negotiations.   I can't blame them for wanting to have complete control over their natural resources.   

Cruz: Europe on 'verge of war' due to 'fecklessness of Joe Biden'

"The reason he's building the pipeline is that it skips Ukraine. It goes right around Ukraine. Why? Because the real insurance that Ukraine had against invasion is that Putin has to take his energy as natural gas in pipelines that go through Ukraine. Once he builds Nord Stream 2, he no longer has to worry about those pipelines," Cruz said
http://www.yahoo.com/news/cruz-europe-apos-verge-war-180718873.html 

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Offline Muzh

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« Reply #468 on: February 20, 2022, 03:40:36 PM »
Ted Cruz what a political hack, war lover, and idiot.    I don't at all mind him calling out Bisen, but at least make some sense in making the argument.

How does his logic make sense here?   If Putin had taken Ukraine it would also be in possession of the pipelines and would not have needed nordstream 2.  , Russia probably would have made the pipelines a high priority so even if Ukraine destroyed some of it, they could have rebuilt pretty quick if they wanted to.  Numbnut cruz also fails to mention that Russian gas won't be bought in Europe regardless of which pipeline were used if he were to invade Ukraine.    Russia belt Nordsteam 2 to avoid the 2 billion in transit fees paid to Ukraine. They probably also don't want the US/Ukraine to hold their gas hostage during unrelated negotiations.   I can't blame them for wanting to have complete control over their natural resources.   

Cruz: Europe on 'verge of war' due to 'fecklessness of Joe Biden'

"The reason he's building the pipeline is that it skips Ukraine. It goes right around Ukraine. Why? Because the real insurance that Ukraine had against invasion is that Putin has to take his energy as natural gas in pipelines that go through Ukraine. Once he builds Nord Stream 2, he no longer has to worry about those pipelines," Cruz said
http://www.yahoo.com/news/cruz-europe-apos-verge-war-180718873.html 

Fathertime!


Didn't you know that forcing Russia to ship its gas through Ukraine Hunter will get richer. Not to mention Kamala and Pelosi who have investments in what's-its-name gas company owned by Hunter.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #469 on: February 20, 2022, 04:25:00 PM »
HAHA @Muzh. 


Ukrainians were siphoning a lot of Russian gas from the pipeline.  Kravchuk and Tymoshenko both became billionaires by stealing Russian gas.  That's the reason Russia decided to bypass Ukraine. 
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline ML

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« Reply #470 on: February 20, 2022, 06:23:44 PM »
  Kravchuk and Tymoshenko both became billionaires by stealing Russian gas. 

I thought they only took enough to heat their homes.
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« Reply #471 on: February 20, 2022, 06:53:19 PM »
Interesting thread in the history of the Donbas.

http://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1495200579919958021.html

Offline Chelseaboy

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« Reply #472 on: February 21, 2022, 02:54:22 AM »
It's On!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10532793/Secretary-State-Blinken-DoD-Chief-Austin-say-threat-Russian-invasion-deadly-serious.html

Apparently Putin has given the order to Invade now!

Russian troops have now received the order and are apparently finalising their first ground manoeuvres into Ukraine. Sounds like it will be any moment now, a matter of hours perhaps and they will cross they'll attack.

As far as I see it, it will be missile and air attacks first, knock out the small Ukrainian airforce and gain air superiority right away. Also target what they can off Ukrainian troops and installations on the ground including power stations.

The Winter Olympic closing ceremony has taken place now so it's only a matter of time it looks before Russian forces engage. My guess is that the Russian Generals will have a time agreed to begin the attack from all sides at once.


Well it was with some trepidation i turned on the news this morning,expecting to see Ukraine in flames after General Trench's pronouncement with seeming relish that the invasion is on !!


Nope..no invasion..no Ukraine in flames....just seems Trench's hysteria took over again. :rolleyes:


The reality is that after a two hour phone call between Putin and Macron yesterday,they both agree that more dialogue over Ukraine is needed.



Of course the Russian-backed separatists in Donbas no doubt have other plans ,as it's clear what their agenda is by their recent dubious claims and actions.


Hopefully Putin won't get sucked in by them.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2022, 03:06:57 AM by Chelseaboy »
Just saying it like it is.

Offline BC

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« Reply #473 on: February 21, 2022, 05:52:41 AM »
Saw that some of the folks that are being 'evaucated', aren't pleased by being sent to places far from home.

They are telling folks to stay instead.

Offline Chelseaboy

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« Reply #474 on: February 21, 2022, 06:35:07 AM »
No young men were evacuated anyway..they've been ordered by the Russian-backed separatists to stay and fight the fantasy incoming Ukraine attack in Donbas...while their young women have been sent over a 1000 km away to near Moscow.


A cynical person might say it's a convenient way to inject some more young and fertile women into an ageing Russian population...with their blokes stuck a 1000 km away.


The BBC filmed loads of young women,some with children, being piled into Buses...with some saying that with them being taken so far away it isn't looking short-term.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2022, 06:49:53 AM by Chelseaboy »
Just saying it like it is.

 

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