The Struggle For Ukraine

[Patagonie]

The only thing that prevents moving RF IMHO is that they still haven't cleaned the whole SAM Ukrainian system.

[Chelseaboy]

My wife was able to talk to her family in Lugansk this morning. Their internet is intermittent and slow, but they are able to message each other. They say the army pushed out from Lugansk heading west. The fighting is happening in Ukrainian territory, so they are safe for the moment. This was the only good news, that family is ok.

I have spent a lot of time in Ukraine and I love that country only second to my own. I can only hope that this invasion ends quickly to limit the amount of bloodshed. It hurts to see places that I have been to multiple times with people being killed and injured. I felt the same when the fighting started in 2014.  Seeing the utter destruction of the Donetsk airport where I met my wife in person for the first time made my heart ache.

It still amazes me the depths of depravity that politicians and dictators will go to get what they want. I guess I should stop being surprised by the brutality of the human animal.

I can only hope that the people of Ukraine can survive and live through what is happening. My prayers go out to the people of Ukraine that are being subjected to the stupidity of tin pot dictators.

This is what happens when you have idiots in charge of countries.

I lost faith in people a long time ago.


NATO in particular and the EU have seriously let down the people of Ukraine.


They held out the hope for full membership for Ukraine for many years without actually letting them join,knowing full well that Mad Vlad was seriously unhappy in the meantime and things could kick-off at anytime.




NATO should hang their heads in shame....all talk no trousers.

[Brillynt]

I lost faith in people a long time ago.


NATO in particular and the EU have seriously let down the people of Ukraine.


They held out the hope for full membership for Ukraine for many years without actually letting them join,knowing full well that Mad Vlad was seriously unhappy in the meantime and things could kick-off at anytime.




NATO should hang their heads in shame....all talk no trousers.

That is not a surprise, NATO is all woke pussies like most of the West. Unless they are beating their own population for being a patriot.

[Chelseaboy]

It seems 'blaming' Blair is rampant in your line of thinking..in the US that's called 'passing the buck'. How did Mr. Blair come into such a powerful position again to cause the UK's bloody hand in Afghanistan again?

Following todays events,remind us how Putin came into power and of even more concern how he's stayed in power to cause Russia's bloody hand in Georgia,Syria and now Ukraine.


Are you holding ALL Russians accountable for what's happening in Ukraine right now ?


Or are you going to "pass the buck " ?

[Chelseaboy]

Protests in Russia now starting.


A large amount of protestors in Yekaterinburg shouting "No to War ".


Russia really needs to get Mad Vlad out of power one way or another..nothing off the table....as us Brits did with our war criminal Blair...or things are not going to end well for the World.


Mad Vlad has totally lost his mind.

[GQBlues]

So the world woke up to the reality Russia had taken a page off the Iraq invasion and launched a massive countrywide invasion of Ukraine. Let me see now..


1. Putin is evil - check.
2. US promised not to advance NATO an inch eastward from Berlin, but reneged on that - check
3. Putin showed his evil ways in Chechnya - check
4. Georgia and Ukraine aspired to become NATO members - evil Putin showed the stupid consequence of that in Georgia - check
5. Ukraine conducted an illegal coup of a internationally recognized and certified presidential (pro-Russian) administration that culminated in a civil war and a territorial military takeover by evil Putin within the Ukrainian sovereignty - check.
6. 8 years later, at the behest of the very same US politicians to again open the potentiality of Ukraine's NATO membership, despite nearly half the European members believing it can't happen, should not happen and a very bad idea. Yet Biden forged ahead and declared Ukraine's NATO membership will not even be included in any negotiation to negate looming military response from Russia as a consequence - check.

7. Now the world witnesses Russia's nationwide demoralizing total invasion of Ukraine - check
8. Full circle. Putin is evil - check

Why would anyone in their right fucking mind, insist on putting its entire population at mortal peril over something that could've been easily avoided, for a membership of a 'club' where half of its members believe/felt they shouldn't be granted such membership - for the simple reason they'd all wake up to what they're waking up on today? and a looming threat of another world war.

Any of you can give me your silly rationale that anyone is entitled to the right to do what it wants, then I grant you to lay witness to what is rationally, predictable reality of that today. The bill always comes due.

The US, and some of its idiotic rabid allies, poked this rabid bear way too much and for way too long. Now it reared its fangs and dare anyone of you to come to his party. 


Next stop: Taiwan/China.

[GQBlues]

The only thing that prevents moving RF IMHO is that they still haven't cleaned the whole SAM Ukrainian system.

First things first.


Sever communication system, demoralize and take over all airports (paratroopers have mostly manned airport/field perimeters), man all land and port borders and isolate the country, while taking over its capital and leaders.
Any outside aid, or crusaders ceases.


Anyone who is non-Ukrainian who rallied for this is responsible for putting every Ukrainian in grave peril.

[Trenchcoat]

Got to say expected Russia to go in harder and faster than this. It looks like their strategy is purely centred on choking the enemy - Ukraine, into surrender. If it can encircle the cities and army cut of its routes of supply, namely the sea ports, which it has done and the border then it's only a matter of time before food starts to run out. A city full of millions of people is going to chomp through food pretty quickly, probably within days. The Ukrainian Army will be much the same. At which point capitulation will begin, Pro-Russian Ukrainians will step forward to negotiate surrender and terms of peace treaty, they'll have no choice but to accept and will get lucrative positions in the new government. The people will accept that is the only way out of their situation of starvation and hey ho it's all sorted.

So at least on the tens of thousands killed I may have been wrong though on that I prefer to be it just sounded too terrible.

[Trenchcoat]

Here seems to be the latest:

http://news.sky.com/story/russia-launches-invasion-of-ukraine-forces-trying-to-seize-site-of-chernobyl-nuclear-disaster-12550026

Apparently amphibious landings in Odessa & Mariupol. Kherson has apparently been subjected to fighting those tanks from Crimea no doubt having arrived now. Bet there's some bad Pro-date/Scammer girls probably now wishing they had been decent with their western guys and gone off abroad with them now

[fathertime]

 
So at least on the tens of thousands killed I may have been wrong though on that I prefer to be it just sounded too terrible.

I don't think Russia would want 1,000's dead  Ukrainian or especially Russian. so it does make sense they would first try lower impact.

Fathetime! 

[Trenchcoat]

I don't think Russia would want 1,000's dead  Ukrainian or especially Russian. so it does make sense they would first try lower impact.

Fathetime!

I agree it's not great for long term stability or in a country's history. Looks to me this is a classic case of regime change just Russia instigating it in Ukraine this time. What are the odds they might place Yanokovich back as President so reversing the situation back in 2014?

Apparently the Russians are trying to get their hands on Chernobyl. I think I vaguely recall it's still functioning as a nuclear power plant despite the accident they had there back in the 80's. No doubt trying to deprive Kyivans of power as well as food, so adding the cold etc to the mix draining their will to go on holding out. Let's hope it doesn't end in another nuclear catastrophe in their attempts to get their hands on it.

[Trenchcoat]

I'm surprised other forum members such as 2tallbill & Boe don't have more to say on this Invasion.

[GQBlues]

For the more matured and studied readers:

An excerpt of a 1998 NYT’s Thomas Friedman’s interview with US Ambassador George Kennan, derived from NYT’s article: “Fumbling on NATO’s Expansion” A cut from the sessions regarding NATO:

War veteran: Secretary Cohen, I thought we fought the cold war to change Russia, not to expand NATO. But now that we've changed Russia and should be consolidating that, you want to expand NATO?''

Secretary Cohen: NATO expansion is not directed against Russia. It's meant to secure the new democracies in East Europe.

Heckler: If it's meant to secure democracy in new democracies, isn't the most important new democracy Russia? And why is your P.R. campaign for NATO expansion being funded by U.S. arms sellers, who see NATO expansion as market expansion for their new weapons?

Student: I just got the spring issue of The National Interest magazine. It contains a letter from George Kennan, the architect of America's cold-war containment of the Soviet Union and one of our nation's greatest statesmen. Kennan says NATO expansion is a historic blunder. What do you all know that he doesn't? This is what he said:

I think it is the beginning of a new cold war, I think the Russians will gradually react quite adversely and it will affect their policies. I think it is a tragic mistake. There was no reason for this whatsoever. No one was threatening anybody else.

This expansion would make the Founding Fathers of this country turn over in their graves. We have signed up to protect a whole series of countries, even though we have neither the resources nor the intention to do so in any serious way. [NATO expansion] was simply a light-hearted action by a Senate that has no real interest in foreign affairs.

What bothers me is how superficial and ill informed the whole Senate debate was (Note: Mr. Kennan was present at the creation of NATO and whose anonymous 1947 article in the journal Foreign Affairs, signed ''X,'' defined America's cold-war containment policy for 40 years).

I was particularly bothered by the references to Russia as a country dying to attack Western Europe. Don't people understand? Our differences in the cold war were with the Soviet Communist regime. And now we are turning our backs on the very people who mounted the greatest bloodless revolution in history to remove that Soviet regime.

And Russia's democracy is as far advanced, if not farther, as any of these countries we've just signed up to defend from Russia. It shows so little understanding of Russian history and Soviet history. Of course there is going to be a bad reaction from Russia, and then [the NATO expanders] will say that we always told you that is how the Russians are -- but this is just wrong.

[/size]Read: Owen Harries’ ‘The Dangers of Expansive Realism’. Today's reality of that is covered here.

[Muzh]

NATO in particular and the EU have seriously let down the people of Ukraine.


They held out the hope for full membership for Ukraine for many years without actually letting them join, knowing full well that Mad Vlad was seriously unhappy in the meantime and things could kick-off at anytime.




NATO should hang their heads in shame....all talk no trousers.

That was a MAJOR blunder. They offered UA hopes of joining but no timetable nor conditions. Very stupid.

[Muzh]

That is not a surprise, NATO is all woke pussies like most of the West. Unless they are beating their own population for being a patriot.

You mean, like patriots wiping their asses with the Constitution? 

[Trenchcoat]

Looks like Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant has now fallen to Russian troops:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10545389/BREAKING-NEWS-Explosions-heard-Ukraine-port-city-Mariupol.html

They're also trying to gain control of power plants on the Dniper River so it's looking like they are trying to switch of Ukraine. Once that is done and they cut of food supply routes it's only a matter of time I guess. Fierce fighting happening elsewhere as well.

[Muzh]

So the world woke up to the reality Russia had taken a page off the Iraq invasion and launched a massive countrywide invasion of Ukraine. Let me see now..


1. Putin is evil - check.
2. US promised not to advance NATO an inch eastward from Berlin, but reneged on that - check
3. Putin showed his evil ways in Chechnya - check
4. Georgia and Ukraine aspired to become NATO members - evil Putin showed the stupid consequence of that in Georgia - check
5. Ukraine conducted an illegal coup of a internationally recognized and certified presidential (pro-Russian) administration that culminated in a civil war and a territorial military takeover by evil Putin within the Ukrainian sovereignty - check.
6. 8 years later, at the behest of the very same US politicians to again open the potentiality of Ukraine's NATO membership, despite nearly half the European members believing it can't happen, should not happen and a very bad idea. Yet Biden forged ahead and declared Ukraine's NATO membership will not even be included in any negotiation to negate looming military response from Russia as a consequence - check.

7. Now the world witnesses Russia's nationwide demoralizing total invasion of Ukraine - check
8. Full circle. Putin is evil - check

Why would anyone in their right fucking mind, insist on putting its entire population at mortal peril over something that could've been easily avoided, for a membership of a 'club' where half of its members believe/felt they shouldn't be granted such membership - for the simple reason they'd all wake up to what they're waking up on today? and a looming threat of another world war.

Any of you can give me your silly rationale that anyone is entitled to the right to do what it wants, then I grant you to lay witness to what is rationally, predictable reality of that today. The bill always comes due.

The US, and some of its idiotic rabid allies, poked this rabid bear way too much and for way too long. Now it reared its fangs and dare anyone of you to come to his party. 


Next stop: Taiwan/China.

GQ, I know you are a young stud. 


Probably, me thinks you missed the middle chapter of the 20th Century history book.


What just happened is more like Czechoslovakia and the Wehrmacht. Please review that chapter. Specifically who was in charge of the armies. Uncanny similarities.

[Muzh]

I don't think Russia would want 1,000's dead  Ukrainian or especially Russian. so it does make sense they would first try lower impact.

Fathetime!

You are absolutely correct.


However, I don't think Putan doesn't give a shit about this.

[Muzh]

Sounds like you're relishing what's happening in Ukraine and cheerleading murderous Putin.


Did you get dumped/rejected by a Ukrainian woman ?


Or maybe you just admire tyrants.

I think he is a Julio living in UA.

[GQBlues]

GQ, I know you are a young stud. 

Probably, me thinks you missed the middle chapter of the 20th Century history book.

What just happened is more like Czechoslovakia and the Wehrmacht. Please review that chapter. Specifically who was in charge of the armies. Uncanny similarities.

Geopolitical history share many similar ambition albeit different players, different times sharing the same result.


But a quick review of the short history of this current tragedy, in the same location, same players and the very same context, should've given everyone a short tutorial of the consequential result what we are waking up to.


Just IMHO. This was overtly warned to all of us a day past reunification of Berlin.

[Boethius]

Looks like VVP lost his patience.

Ukraine is an undeniable failed state, and arguably a failed society. In some respects it is comparable to the Balkans. The difference now it is Russia putting its foot down and not NATO.

Welcome to the real world. The ability to put impart military might is still trumps BS. Crimea has been part of the Russian Federation for eight years and that's not going to change. The policy of 'unrecognized' buffer states (South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transnistria) has been expanded. This is by and large a direct response to NATO advancement toward Russia's borders.

To the winner takes the spoils. Russia comprehensively won the conflict in 2014. The West still haven't accepted the "L". The best NATO can muster is a dirty conflict in Donbas. The best the US/UK can do is announce further sanctions. The EU can do jack shit as it is reliant on Russian (energy) exports.

The USD/RUB is nearing new highs. Will be interesting to see if resistance is broken and the RUB declines significantly. If it does then RF real estate is looking like a speculative play to me.

Lost his patience???  For what?  Ukraine was no threat to Russia, and had he removed troops from Donbas, the countries likely would have resumed completely normal relations.  As was, they had diplomatic relations.


The EU can go to other suppliers - the Middle East, Canada, the US (via LG). 


If you think this is about NATO, you're a fool.  It was never about NATO.  Russian children go to bed hearing fairy tales, most of which take place in Kyiv.  For Putin, it's about empire restoration, proving he is very much living in the past.  Personally, I think he has small man/small d energy, and killing thousands of innocents makes him feel powerful in a sick way.

[Trenchcoat]

A cracking exchange rate can be had on the GBP or USD Vs the Russian Ruble or Ukrainian Ghrivna right now.

[Admin]

People are dying on the ground in Ukraine RIGHT FUCKING *NOW*! It is NOT the time for you to be bickering about nonsensical bullshit. Direct your energies to something/anything which might save lives rather than pissing on each other's boots on an internet forum.

[GQBlues]

I am curious as to what happens with this market if this conflict becomes a prolonged situation. Will the energy industry determine nations' resolve in this conflict, and for how long?


http://www.gazpromexport.ru/en/statistics/

[Bee Farmer]

I think it is prime time to give Putin a taste of his own medicine.

Konigsberg historically was never Russian.  It only came into being after WWII.  The Soviet Union took it as a war prize from Germany.  When the Soviet Union fell apart in 1991, the (now NATO) countries surrounding it didn't want it, so Russia claimed it.  (And why didn't Russia throw a fit when NATO surrounded Konigsberg?)

I think we need to see military action and wipe Kaliningrad from the face of the map.  It should not be under Russian control.  It needs returned to its historical owners.  As for the fact that Kaliningrad is the base for the Russian naval fleet...too bad.  As for the fact that Kaliningrad is the center of much of Russian industry...too bad.  Losing Kaliningrad should be the kind of consequences Russia has to deal with for attacking Ukraine without provocation.