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Author Topic: More Bad News for Russia  (Read 1075509 times)

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Offline Doll

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More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #900 on: December 14, 2014, 01:23:30 PM »
Two questions.


2. How has Russia's security been compromised otherwise?
I mean facing sanction.

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #901 on: December 14, 2014, 01:28:44 PM »
I'd like to chime in here too....


From my viewpoint, had Russia EVENTUALLY lost access to Crimea it would have been a blow to their security.  In addition, more and more often if a nation conducts internal affairs in a manner that the USA determines is not in keeping with the standards it insists upon, it will impose sanctions...now had the whole of Ukraine turned towards the EU and USA, they  could have just been another country towing the line against Russia...at some point....at least this is how Russia may see it...in addition I, and many others have become convinced that the USA acts in it's own interests often at the expense of other nations and it peoples.     


Fathertime!


Russia had a lease for its Black Sea Fleet to 2042.   Moreover, as I have posted before, the Black Sea is a closed sea, as the Dardanelles are controlled neither by Russia nor Ukraine, but by Turkey so how, exactly, does it provide any form of security?


Any confrontation between the US and Russia (excluding proxies) will not involve sea or even land forces, so I reject this argument completely.


EU and US policy are not always in alignment.   Therefore, Ukraine's economic and, presumably, political movement to the EU is irrelevant vis a vis the U.S.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #902 on: December 14, 2014, 01:29:14 PM »
I mean facing sanction.


I am not following what you are saying.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Doll

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« Reply #903 on: December 14, 2014, 01:36:39 PM »

I am not following what you are saying.
you asked why Russia keeps standing sanctions. I answered

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #904 on: December 14, 2014, 01:39:29 PM »
No, I asked how Russia's security had been compromised, such that it needed to invade its neighbour and endure economic upheaval.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 02:11:53 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Doll

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« Reply #905 on: December 14, 2014, 02:18:27 PM »
No, I asked how Russia's security had been compromised, such that it needed to invade its neighbour and endure economic upheaval.
ok- economic security


Offline Boethius

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« Reply #906 on: December 14, 2014, 02:20:48 PM »
How has Russia's economic security been strengthened by all that has occurred in the past year?
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline sleepycat

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« Reply #907 on: December 14, 2014, 02:58:58 PM »
ok- economic security

Ahhhhh...So the root cause of all this is because Ukraine don't want to join huilo's silly little Euroasian Union?

Offline southernX

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« Reply #908 on: December 14, 2014, 05:16:13 PM »
Quote
JAY H
No SX-- it is not an option for Russians to simply opt out by saying nothing.

JAY ,while i agree with you on many levels ,

it also needs to be recognised the mind set of many russians and the low level of belief that they can /do have any ability to have an impact on the politics of their nation , & their deep understanding of the consequences if they did wish to stand up and be counted


it almost goes against the culture of the people to publicly question the gov, , mistrust /conspiracy is the norm among people who see themselves as expendable for the state in many ways

while we may not agree with them , they know standing up for their rights or values has a huge negative impact on them , their familys etc, & thats if they believe strongly enough to do so anyway ,

its easy for us to make judgements from here , but its a brave person to do it in russia id think

im guessing , most will hunker down and stoikly wait it out whatever comes along , as that is the russian way


SX
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 06:02:29 PM by southernX »
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

Offline southernX

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« Reply #909 on: December 14, 2014, 05:52:02 PM »
It is a cop out to blame the leaders and hold their supporters blameless.

ML im unable to hate or blame the russian people quite so much as maybe others might , see my post above , mr putin on the other hand , is fair game

Quote
The vast majority of Russian people fully support Putin.

if you trust the polling as completly independent ?

Quote
His actions are their actions.


not at all , thats way to simplistic imo

SX
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

Offline fathertime

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« Reply #910 on: December 14, 2014, 07:15:51 PM »

   Moreover, as I have posted before, the Black Sea is a closed sea, as the Dardanelles are controlled neither by Russia nor Ukraine, but by Turkey so how, exactly, does it provide any form of security?
 


This is a separate issue involving Turkey and is not relevant.





Any confrontation between the US and Russia (excluding proxies) will not involve sea or even land forces, so I reject this argument completely.

I have to chuckle if you REALLY believe the sea doesn't matter.  It does matter....if it made no difference why are nations building up their Navy?


 


EU and US policy are not always in alignment.   Therefore, Ukraine's economic and, presumably, political movement to the EU is irrelevant vis a vis the U.S.
The EU and US policy are not ALWAYS in perfect alignment, but they are on basically the same page against Russia regarding the sanctions and are often on the same side during conflicts...or when the chips are down.


Fathertime!

I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Doll

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« Reply #911 on: December 14, 2014, 07:36:23 PM »

Viva Germany!<<Thousands of Germans have staged a protest rally to express their anger at the West’s warmongering policies against Russia over the ongoing crisis in Ukraine.At least 3,500 people took part in the protest, organized by the German Peace Movement, in the capital Berlin on Saturday.The demonstrators marched to the presidential Bellevue palace to condemn the West’s confrontation with Russia over the conflict in Ukraine.They expressed concern that the policies adopted by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) under the influence of the United States will lead to further escalation of tensions in Europe.The protesters also called for the dissolution of the Western military alliance, an immediate withdrawal of US nuclear weapons from Germany’s Büchel Air Base, and the closure of the US-run Ramstein Air Base in the country’s southwestern part.>>http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/12/14 ... -policies/


Offline Boethius

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« Reply #912 on: December 14, 2014, 07:49:34 PM »

This is a separate issue involving Turkey and is not relevant.


It certainly is relevant if, per your assertion, Russia needed the Black Sea for its "protection".  It already has a more suitable location for a better sea port than Sevastopol.  However, a sea where your fleet is trapped by a NATO member is not exactly a big win, is it?

Quote
I have to chuckle if you REALLY believe the sea doesn't matter.  It does matter....if it made no difference why are nations building up their Navy?The EU and US policy are not ALWAYS in perfect alignment, but they are on basically the same page against Russia regarding the sanctions and are often on the same side during conflicts...or when the chips are down.


Had Russia not invaded a sovereign nation on European soil, and its leader not bold facedly  lied, there would be no sanctions.


Please tell me exactly how the Black Sea, which can be closed off, its ships unable to exit it, can matter militarily.


After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #913 on: December 14, 2014, 07:51:11 PM »
Viva Germany!<<Thousands of Germans have staged a protest rally to express their anger at the West’s warmongering policies against Russia over the ongoing crisis in Ukraine.At least 3,500 people took part in the protest, organized by the German Peace Movement, in the capital Berlin on Saturday.The demonstrators marched to the presidential Bellevue palace to condemn the West’s confrontation with Russia over the conflict in Ukraine.They expressed concern that the policies adopted by the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) under the influence of the United States will lead to further escalation of tensions in Europe.The protesters also called for the dissolution of the Western military alliance, an immediate withdrawal of US nuclear weapons from Germany’s Büchel Air Base, and the closure of the US-run Ramstein Air Base in the country’s southwestern part.>>http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/12/14 ... -policies/


The same useful idiots who protested for unilateral disarmament by the West in the 1980's.  They were wrong then, as they are wrong now.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline jone

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« Reply #914 on: December 14, 2014, 07:56:33 PM »
I read, I think yesterday, that Russian fighters had invaded Sweden's airspace (again) and almost collided with a passenger jet.    This provocation is indicative of Russia actions against almost all nations bordering it.

I'm just curious what our Russian apologists think about this.  Do you think its fictitious?  Do you think it is in response to incursions by NATO in Russia?  Why would a nation continue to be belligerent?  What would be the basis for intentionally violating the airspace of another country?  Please, enlighten us. 
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline Doll

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« Reply #915 on: December 14, 2014, 07:58:46 PM »

The same useful idiots who protested for unilateral disarmament by the West in the 1980's.  They were wrong then, as they are wrong now.
Wow! " Idiot"
It is your opinion and nothing else
Europe is getting tired of confrontation

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #916 on: December 14, 2014, 08:00:10 PM »
Hey, I'm quoting Lenin!


Yes, it is my opinion.  But history has proven me right in the first instance.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Doll

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« Reply #917 on: December 14, 2014, 08:00:42 PM »
I read, I think yesterday, that Russian fighters had invaded Sweden's airspace (again) and almost collided with a passenger jet.    This provocation is indicative of Russia actions against almost all nations bordering it.

I'm just curious what our Russian apologists think about this.  Do you think its fictitious?  Do you think it is in response to incursions by NATO in Russia?  Why would a nation continue to be belligerent?  What would be the basis for intentionally violating the airspace of another country?  Please, enlighten us.
Link?

Offline Boethius

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After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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« Reply #919 on: December 14, 2014, 08:04:21 PM »

It certainly is relevant if, per your assertion, Russia needed the Black Sea for its "protection".  It already has a more suitable location for a better sea port than Sevastopol.  However, a sea where your fleet is trapped by a NATO member is not exactly a big win, is it?


Had Russia not invaded a sovereign nation on European soil, and its leader not bold facedly  lied, there would be no sanctions.


Please tell me exactly how the Black Sea, which can be closed off, its ships unable to exit it, can matter militarily.


and when was the black sea last closed off to Russia? would Russia accept that NOW?  Would the USA REALLY permit the Panama Canal to be closed to us?
if the black sea could be closed but never is....then that means it is open....if it is open then it serves a strategic purpose for Russia....


So why again is the navy irrelevant to warfare?


I don't think your argument that Crimea didn't matter to Russia strategically remains flawed.  Other more credible arguments can be made, but that is NOT one of them


Fathertime!
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline sleepycat

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« Reply #920 on: December 14, 2014, 08:10:32 PM »
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russian-jet-civilian-airliner-nearly-collide-sweden-says-1.2872780

Doll probably won't believe the content of this link because it didn't come from the Russian propaganda ministry state media!

Offline Doll

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« Reply #921 on: December 14, 2014, 08:21:44 PM »
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russian-jet-civilian-airliner-nearly-collide-sweden-says-1.2872780
where is it said " invaded"? It is an international space
A Russian military jet nearly collided with a commercial passenger airplane in international airspace near southern Sweden on Friday, the Swedish authorities said, but Russia insisted on Sunday that its jet had kept at a safe distance.


Offline Boethius

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« Reply #922 on: December 14, 2014, 08:23:17 PM »
The Seventh Fleet has been located permanently in the Mediterranean Sea since WWII.  They would de facto control what Turkey does.

The Soviets kept nuclear subs in Gibraltar for the same reason.

I read your post to my better half, who served in the Soviet military.  His response - "Anyone who believes the Black Sea has any strategic value knows nothing about the navy or naval strategy.  The Russians keep the fleet there because it's been there for 200 years.  Even when I was in the navy, everyone knew the Black Sea Fleet meant nothing.  It was, and is known, as "kaluzha" (the "Muddy Puddle" Fleet).  Even at the time I was in the navy, the technology made the Black Sea Fleet useless.  Today, it is less than that.  The Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet, which open to seas, are different."  He also said "Anyone who believes there was any military purpose for retaking Crimea knows nothing about Russia or Russian mentality.  It is about history, nothing more.  The idiot who gave Crimea to Ukraine thought the commies would rule forever." (Note, he is more ethnically Russian than Ukrainian.)


Even if we assumed your preposterous assertion has any merit, Russia already had a fleet in a better port on the Black Sea, at Novorossiysk.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 08:30:59 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #923 on: December 14, 2014, 08:24:37 PM »
where is it said " invaded"? It is an international space
A Russian military jet nearly collided with a commercial passenger airplane in international airspace near southern Sweden on Friday, the Swedish authorities said, but Russia insisted on Sunday that its jet had kept at a safe distance.


Well, you'll have to ask jone for the choice of his words, not me.  However, I believe he was using "invaded" as a synonym for "entering" airspace where a commercial airliner was flying, without adequate warnings.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2014, 08:28:52 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Doll

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« Reply #924 on: December 14, 2014, 08:37:07 PM »
It is international space
( Novorossyisk is much worse as a port than Sevastopol)


 

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