Russian Women Discussion
RWD News From the Front => Ukrainian Front Discussion => Topic started by: Chelseaboy on September 06, 2014, 07:56:00 PM
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He says NATO will be supplying Ukraine with advanced precision lethal weaponry to fight Russian troops and pro=Russian separatists with.
He states this in an interview recorded on Friday with the BBC,after the NATO summit.
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Do you believe him? Do you believe the West will come through?
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He says NATO ....
Incorrect. Certain individual countries made that decision on their own outside of NATO, although it happened at the NATO meeting.
"Petro Poroshenko emphasised the agreement was reached not with the Alliance as a whole, but with some of its member states."
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So what ?
With so many countries in NATO,obviously not every country in NATO will agree to everything...that's why there's been so much dithering over Ukraine...just like the EU and their economic sanctions against Russia,not all countries are taking part in them either.
Some countries just bury their heads in the sand and hope the problem will go away...Germany being particularly guilty of this despite Angela Merkel's tough public words...too much money involved with Russia for them to want to get seriously involved...and money is more important than Ukrainian lives in their minds.
Point is only the most powerful military forces in NATO have that weaponry anyway,and they'll be the ones supplying it to Ukraine...if Poroshenko is to be believed about lethal weapons being supplied to Ukraine.
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Reuters today :
Aide to Poroshenko says Ukraine will get weapons from five NATO members..including the USA.
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A protracted war in Ukraine will end up being the Putin regime's political death. Vlad is actually showing himself to be a strategic imbecile.
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Vlad anymore doesn't have a way back. Russia's way out is only revolution and civil war, tho russians by themselves don't see that yet, give them couple of years to comprehend what Vlad done to them and their country.
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A protracted war in Ukraine will end up being the Putin regime's political death. Vlad is actually showing himself to be a strategic imbecile.
Anyone else disagree with this? Because I think it is spot on.
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Anyone else disagree with this? Because I think it is spot on.
From what I've seen on the internet, most Russian citizens believe Ukraine is their business. Long war or not, Putin is not going away unless he wants to go away. If he loses popularity someday, he may have to rule the nation with an iron fist to stay in power.
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Do you believe Putin to be a strategic imbecile? Because I do. How about you?
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Talk vs Action (yesterday towards Lugansk)
http://tsn.ua/bin/player/embed.php/384057460 (http://tsn.ua/bin/player/embed.php/384057460)
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Do you believe Putin to be a strategic imbecile? Because I do. How about you?
Putin got Crimea. He's getting his way in Ukraine more than the West is. In other words, he's winning. When he' stops acquiring real estate, he understands in a few years the sanctions will go away and everybody will be back to business as usual. Unless the West is willing to do more than sanctions, Putin is going to win.
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Anyone else disagree with this? Because I think it is spot on.
I do. Putin's position is very strong. He doesn't look (his actions) like imbecile at all.
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Even as I despise Putin and the majority of Russians who support him, it is foolish to think that he is not winning or that his actions mean the downfall of Russia, etc.
The world has too many problems right now in too many places.
The citizens of USA and the government of USA are tired of all these problems and don't want to get further involved. The same goes for the western European countries.
Our current time has given Putin a huge opportunity and he is taking it. Putin and Russia will end up keeping all territory that they want to, and all sanctions against Russia will be lifted. The world will let out a sigh of relief that it is over, except for the citizens of Ukraine and the families who have lost loved ones.
At some point in the future, Russia will move again against other countries.
And at some more distant point, the countries of the world will say; how did we let this happen. We saw what happened with Germany's expansion pre-WWII and vowed it would not happen again. But we did let it happen.
I only hope that the USA will stop issuing visitors visas to all Russians. They are a thoroughly despicable people.
It doesn't matter how many of you say, oh no, my parent's in law are wonderful people, the Russian people are so great and warm once you get into their homes, bla bla bla.
Everyone here knows it down deep just how rotten to the core these people are, but can't for obvious reasons bring yourselves to say it or even think it.
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The citizens of USA and the government of USA are tired of all these problems and don't want to get further involved. The same goes for the western European countries.
Really?
Read this
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/ (http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/)
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I only hope that the USA will stop issuing visitors visas to all Russians
Then no Americans will be admitted in RF.
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Then no Americans will be admitted in RF.
That would be fine. Only idiots would want to go there anyway.
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That would be fine. Only idiots would want to go there anyway.
Haha
Then this forum "for idiots" needs to close.
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Vlad anymore doesn't have a way back. Russia's way out is only revolution and civil war, tho russians by themselves don't see that yet, give them couple of years to comprehend what Vlad done to them and their country.
Precisely, he has painted himself into a corner and there is little room for manoeuvre now. He has had to whip nationalist jingoism at home combined with absurd anti Ukrainian propaganda on one hand and on the other hand, diplomatic and economic isolation will really start to hit the Russian economy soon. Contrary to what some people think, there really is actually little fat in the Russian economy and it will be seriously buffeted by the storm on the horizon.
One other direct long term strategic legacy is that Ukraine will probably become a hostile enemy State to Russia soon as the point of no return is nearing (and may already even be in the rear view mirror). This is a blunder of epic proportions that after this war is over will have Ukraine (whatever its territorial configuration is) either joining NATO or arming themselves with nuclear weapons and the second largest Slavic nation will become an avowed enemy of Russia.
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Really?
Read this
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/ (http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/)
Thanks Doll for providing the link. It is a laugh reading/listening to Harf try to tapdance out of the obvious inconsistencies and hypocrisy of our foreign policies.
Fathertime!
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Thanks Doll for providing the link. It is a laugh reading/listening to Harf try to tapdance out of the obvious inconsistencies and hypocrisy of our foreign policies.
Fathertime!
Read Psaki- she is more amusing.
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One other direct long term strategic legacy is that Ukraine will probably become a hostile enemy State to Russia soon as the point of no return is nearing (and may already even be in the rear view mirror). This is a blunder of epic proportions that after this war is over will have Ukraine (whatever its territorial configuration is) either joining NATO or arming themselves with nuclear weapons and the second largest Slavic nation will become an avowed enemy of Russia.
I think from Russia's pov that was going to happen anyway and they would have been completely shut out I don't see anybody giving Ukraine atomic weapons as that would pretty much assure nuclear war and nobody would escape the effects of even a limited exchange.
Fathertime!
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I do. Putin's position is very strong. He doesn't look (his actions) like imbecile at all.
I think he is doing a great job at entrenching himself in power and sweeping away the remnants of a normal, civil society in Russia. If his aim is to rule a closed, paranoid, isolated Russia until his (natural) death I think he is doing a pretty good job.
If the objective is to enhance Russia's standing in the world and leave it in a strong strategic position for the future I think his rule will be looked back in years to come as disastrous.
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I think from Russia's pov that was going to happen anyway and they would have been completely shut out I don't see anybody giving Ukraine atomic weapons as that would pretty much assure nuclear war and nobody would escape the effects of even a limited exchange.
Fathertime!
Ukraine was no way near joining NATO prior to this conflict. It certainly will after it is over.
Who gave North Korea, Pakistan or arguably Iran nuclear weapons? Unlike North Korea, Ukraine actually already possesses all the ingredients for a nuclear weapons program. Who can say to them that they have no need for it or "don't develop a nuclear weapons capability, we will guarantee your future security".
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I think from Russia's pov that was going to happen anyway and they would have been completely shut out I don't see anybody giving Ukraine atomic weapons as that would pretty much assure nuclear war and nobody would escape the effects of even a limited exchange.
Actually Ukraine is ramping up their nuclear program with the help of the US. People would survive a limited exchange if it occurred. Most people do not realize the Pentagon (through the DTRA) also has about 10 facilities in Ukraine where they produce weaponized biological agents. All facilities are right on the Russian border. There is one in Georgia and Kazakhstan (Central Reference Laboratory) as well.
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Putin's position is very strong. He doesn't look (his actions) like imbecile at all.
Like signing a deal to supply gas to the Chinese at a loss-making price?
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Actually Ukraine is ramping up their nuclear program with the help of the US. People would survive a limited exchange if it occurred. Most people do not realize the Pentagon (through the DTRA) also has about 10 facilities in Ukraine where they produce weaponized biological agents. All facilities are right on the Russian border. There is one in Georgia and Kazakhstan (Central Reference Laboratory) as well.
Hey Alex, I'm clear people would survive although the effects would be felt by all.
If Ukraine begins developing nuclear weapons of their own, then Russia might decide to bomb the facilities just like we are threatening Iran with. Overall I'd like to see the infiltration of nuclear weapons stop BUT with the USA and now Russia using their respective military strengths to influence world events/peoples, the desire/incentive of nations to be nuclear armed is greater than ever.
I am having a hard time believing that we (the USA) would help another nation in Ukraine's position develop these weapons. Helping with nuclear power I can see doing
Fathertime!
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Like signing a deal to supply gas to the Chinese at a loss-making price?
Or with the 'Do as Moskva says or we will attack you and dismember your country' approach, opening the door wide open to China having a real influence and presence in former Soviet Central Asia (where they have a toehold already).
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Everyone here knows it down deep just how rotten to the core these people are, but can't for obvious reasons bring yourselves to say it or even think it.
Do you mean Russian people in general or do you mean the leaders of Russia's government and economy? If the former, I take strong exception. If the latter, I agree.
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Like signing a deal to supply gas to the Chinese at a loss-making price?
Yes, because it is better than giving it to Ukraine for free.
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Hey Alex, I'm clear people would survive although the effects would be felt by all.
If Ukraine begins developing nuclear weapons of their own, then Russia might decide to bomb the facilities just like we are threatening Iran with. Overall I'd like to see the infiltration of nuclear weapons stop BUT with the USA and now Russia using their respective military strengths to influence world events/peoples, the desire/incentive of nations to be nuclear armed is greater than ever.
I am having a hard time believing that we (the USA) would help another nation in Ukraine's position develop these weapons. Helping with nuclear power I can see doing
Fathertime!
FT why is it ok for you to have them to protect your backside but not ukraine ??
the US signed the budapest memorandum , you havent honoured it, so why not expect other countrys to try to use any & all means to protect themselves ??
it is clear they can only rely on themselves, ,
everyone knows putin would not be in ukraine if they still had nuclear weapons ,
SX
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From China's POV, this is all great news as Russia will now be forced to seek an alliance with China, and Russia will have to be the junior partner of that alliance. I wonder how the Kremlin really feels about having to play 'little brother' to an Asian nation.
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Yes, because it is better than giving it to Ukraine for free.
doll , gazprom has been charging extorniate prices for gas to all of the EU & UKRAINE for way too long
they levy a price for their gas depending on the volume and how weak/gas dependant they percieve the buyer country to be , not on fair charges for the product that foster good open business relationships ,
gasprom is corrupt and manipulative , everyone knows this
SX
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FT why is it ok for you to have them to protect your backside but not ukraine ??
the US signed the budapest memorandum , you havent honoured it, so why not expect other countrys to try to use any & all means to protect themselves ??
it is clear they can only rely on themselves, ,
everyone knows putin would not be in ukraine if they still had nuclear weapons ,
SX
I didn't write that Ukraine can't have nukes. I just wouldn't help them develop them. Why can't Syria or Libya have them too? That would cover their ass from the USA intervening on their sovereignty.
Fathertime!
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doll , gazprom has been charging extorniate prices for gas to all of the EU & UKRAINE for way too long
they levy a price for their gas depending on the volume and how weak/gas dependant they percieve the buyer country to be , not on fair charges for the product that foster good open business relationships ,
gasprom is corrupt and manipulative , everyone knows this
SX
Who are you to dictate what a fair price for gas is? Russia is free to charge what the market will bear. The west doesn't sit on the resource yet appartently still thinks they should dictate a 'fair' price.
Fathertime!
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everyone knows putin would not be in ukraine if they still had nuclear weapons ,
Spot on.
I would guess that Nazarbayev in Kazakhstan is also now regretting relinquishing nuclear armaments. They may not have the same technological and scientific depth as UA but KZ does have oil, gas, gold, uranium etc ... and could conceivably fund such a program.
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Do you believe Putin to be a strategic imbecile? Because I do. How about you?
Putin is an INTJ personality. INTJ's are Master Strategists. No other personality type comes close to the strategic abilities of an INTJ. Regardless what you think of Putin, it is extremely foolish and ignorant to think Putin to be a strategic imbecile.
Ukraine actually already possesses all the ingredients for a nuclear weapons program. Who can say to them that they have no need for it or "don't develop a nuclear weapons capability, we will guarantee your future security".
Have you forgotten the Budapest Moratorium? The US and Russian promised to protect Ukraine if Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapon arsenal. Ukraine had the 3rd largest nuclear arsenal in the world at the time.
The US and Russia reneged on their end of the agreement. I believe Ukraine has a legitimate right to get its nukes back.
Personally, I think the easiest way to calm the situation in Ukraine down is for Obama to go public with the secret agreement the US made with Ukraine at the Budapest Moratorium. Obama should say that Ukraine transferred 10 nuclear weapons to US custody, and the US agreed to return those nuclear weapons to Ukraine if Russia reneged on their security promises under the Budapest Moratorium.
If Obama publicly said that the US would return those 10 nuclear weapons to Ukraine if Russia didn't immediately withdraw from Crimea and the Donbass, I think we would instantly see Putin think twice. Because there is no way Putin wants to see those "fascist Nazis in Kiev" get their hands on nukes. Even if he thinks he could take Kiev in 2 weeks, Putin knows Kiev would be able to strike Russia hard with the nukes in that 2 weeks.
It doesn't matter if there was ever a secret agreement or not. Documents could be forged. But it would give a public, legitimate reason for the US to put 10 nukes in Kiev's hands.
Then again, I think it would be a good idea for the US to loan Kiev all or some of our A-10 Warthogs. The Warthog is a beast of a plane that is incredible at destroying tanks and ground armor. It is probably the best plane in the world at providing close ground support. The military is doing away with the Warthogs, because of its cost and because our idiot military leaders don't see the need for tank busting planes in future combats. If we are going to do away with the Warthog program, why don't we loan the planes to Ukraine (who really needs them to counter Russian armor) and if we ever decide we want to bring the Warthog program back, we can easily recall the planes.
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I didn't write that Ukraine can't have nukes. I just wouldn't help them develop them. Why can't Syria or Libya have them too? That would cover their ass from the USA intervening on their sovereignty.
Fathertime!
FT, show me where i said syria or libya should have them please ?but given the weak response from western powers, why would you not expect them to desire to ?
you dont want the US to help ukraine militarily, , you dont want the US to keep its agreements internationly, but you also dont want ukraine to have nuclear, all the while you sit completly protected ,
hypocrisy
help defend them or let them develop weapons that can ,
your attitude is selfish hypocrisy when your own self is protected
given the US /EU NATO , ETC lack of military help , why would you now expect any country from here on in to look to protect themselves as best as they can ?? despite what the us might want ?
the US/EU/NATO cant have it both ways , help defend them as you said you would , or get the fcuk out of their way and let them do it anyway they can
if it was my country at war , being eaten up by putin id be advocating nuclear arms into the future for sure as our best long term deterent
SX
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Personally, I think the easiest way to calm the situation in Ukraine down is for Obama to go public with the secret agreement the US made with Ukraine at the Budapest Moratorium. Obama should say that Ukraine transferred 10 nuclear weapons to US custody, and the US agreed to return those nuclear weapons to Ukraine if Russia reneged on their security promises under the Budapest Moratorium.
If Obama publicly said that the US would return those 10 nuclear weapons to Ukraine if Russia didn't immediately withdraw from Crimea and the Donbass, I think we would instantly see Putin think twice. Because there is no way Putin wants to see those "fascist Nazis in Kiev" get their hands on nukes. Even if he thinks he could take Kiev in 2 weeks, Putin knows Kiev would be able to strike Russia hard with the nukes in that 2 weeks.
It doesn't matter if there was ever a secret agreement or not. Documents could be forged. But it would give a public, legitimate reason for the US to put 10 nukes in Kiev's hands.
That is an interesting suggestion. It won't cime to pass but if it did that would set a new precedent and anytime a country got in trouble with the USA, Russia could also forge a document that would allow for the secret transfer of a few nukes..perhaps starting with Cuba.
Fathertime!
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Who are you to dictate what a fair price for gas is? Russia is free to charge what the market will bear. The west doesn't sit on the resource yet appartently still thinks they should dictate a 'fair' price.
Fathertime!
FT
WHO AM I ?to dictate a fair gas price ??
go do some research mate ,
google the amount of customers/countrys who have taken gazprom to court over their pricing &have won
fair crack of the whip , you need to school up a little mate
SX
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FT, show me where i said syria or libya should have them please ?but given the weak response from western powers, why would you not expect them to desire to ?
you dont want the US to help ukraine militarily, , you dont want the US to keep its agreements internationly, but you also dont want ukraine to have nuclear, all the while you sit completly protected ,
hypocrisy
help defend them or let them develop weapons that can ,
your attitude is selfish hypocrisy when your own self is protected
given the US /EU NATO , ETC lack of military help , why would you now expect any country from here on in to look to protect themselves as best as they can ?? despite what the us might want ?
the US/EU/NATO cant have it both ways , help defend them as you said you would , or get the fcuk out of their way and let them do it anyway they can
if it was my country at war , being eaten up by putin id be advocating nuclear arms into the future for sure as our best long term deterent
SX
I agree. We should stay out of it. No men, no arms to either side. If countries want to build up their own militaries I'm all for it.
Where did I say you said Syria or Libya can't have nukes?
Fathertime!
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FT
WHO AM I ?to dictate a fair gas price ??
go do some research mate ,
google the amount of customers/countrys who have taken gazprom to court over their pricing &have won
fair crack of the whip , you need to school up a little mate
SX
If Russia sits on the resource they can charge whatever the market bears or sell elsewhere. Why would Russia adhere to some western court's decision? Are countries not free to buy their gas from somewhere else? I do not recognize your right to dictate prices for their resources.
Fathertime!
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Who are you to dictate what a fair price for gas is? Russia is free to charge what the market will bear. The west doesn't sit on the resource yet appartently still thinks they should dictate a 'fair' price.
Fathertime!
Thank you, you saved me time to answer))
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doll , gazprom has been charging extorniate prices for gas to all of the EU & UKRAINE for way too long
they levy a price for their gas depending on the volume and how weak/gas dependant they percieve the buyer country to be , not on fair charges for the product that foster good open business relationships ,
gasprom is corrupt and manipulative , everyone knows this
SX
Ukraine got it for free.
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МОСКВА, 8 июля. /ИТАР-ТАСС/. Украина импортировала в июне 1,7 млрд куб. м российского газа на $838 млн. Общий долг Украины за поставленное "Газпромом" сырье достиг $5,296 млрд. Об этом сообщил журналистам глава корпорации Алексей Миллер.
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It won't cime to pass but if it did that would set a new precedent and anytime a country got in trouble with the USA, Russia could also forge a document that would allow for the secret transfer of a few nukes..perhaps starting with Cuba.
Don't forget the nuclear non-proliferation treaty...
Ukraine would be an exception. Ukraine was an established nuclear power, with the world's 3rd largest nuclear arsenal. Giving them nukes would involve giving nukes to a country that was already a nuclear power.
I know of no other country which possessed nuclear weapons, which gave up their nukes. This is what makes Ukraine the exception. Giving Ukraine nukes would be re-arming a nuclear state...and giving nukes to any other nation would be giving nukes to a non-nuclear state.
But then again, any country with uranium fuel nuclear reactors are building nuclear weapons. That is the ONLY reason countries ever have uranium fuel nuclear reactors...to produce material for nuclear weapons. If countries wanted nuclear energy for medical reasons or electricity....they would use a thorium reactor. Safer and cheaper. The only downside to a thorium reactor is that none of the byproducts can be used for nuclear weapons...which explains why no country wants a thorium reactor.
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Thank you, you saved me time to answer))
Clearly if given the chance western powers would turn Russia into a slave state if they could through neocolonialism and multinationals. You got western people trying to dictate the price russia sells their gas at while I paid 100 dollars for small part on my Grohe (German) faucet. Russia can charge what they feel they need to until somebody sells for less and takes their customers away.
Fathertime!
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Don't forget the nuclear non-proliferation treaty...
Ukraine would be an exception.
You might feel they are the exception since it might forward the outcomes you prefer, but I doubt Russia would see it that way. The end result would be nukes in a countrt or two where the US has infringed on sovereignty.
Fathertime!
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Bee Farmer, Kazakhstan also relinquished the nuclear weapons it inherited from the ex CCCP arsenal. Given the rumblings coming from the Kremlin recently if I was in power in Astana I would be looking to re-acquire this capability ASAP.
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Ukraine got it for free.
And Russia got their ex president, Yanukovych. Free gas in exchange for control over a nation. Russia got the better deal.
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And Russia got their ex president, Yanukovych. Free gas in exchange for control over a nation. Russia got the better deal.
I don't think so. Russia wants money for gas.
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I don't think so. Russia wants money for gas.
If they want money for gas so badly, why did they take in and protect Ukraine's ex president after he got ousted, you know, the guy who didn't pay the gas bill? He served Russia well when he was in power.
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I don't think so. Russia wants money for gas.
Billy Bob is correct. If Ukraine kept Yanukovich and joined the CCCP v.2.1 Customs Union the Kremlin was ready to sign up to a long term subsidised gas deal with Kiev IIRC.
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If they want money for gas so badly, why did they take in and protect Ukraine's ex president after he got ousted, you know, the guy who didn't pay the gas bill? He served Russia well when he was in power.
how is it linked?
You sell the product, you want money for it.
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joined the CCCP
Joined what, excuse me?
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Bee Farmer, Kazakhstan also relinquished the nuclear weapons it inherited from the ex CCCP arsenal. Given the rumblings coming from the Kremlin recently if I was in power in Astana I would be looking to re-acquire this capability ASAP.
I stand corrected. I only knew about Ukraine giving up their nukes.
*sigh* It's a shame so many former USSR states had such foolish leaders who would disarm their countries.
As Mao Zedong said, "Political power comes from the barrel of a gun." When you give away your guns, you are at the mercy of those who still have their guns.
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Joined what, excuse me?
The Eurasian Customs Union. Putin's idea as the platform to reinvent the USSR, I call it CCCP MkII ;D This Customs Union will mean nothing if Kazakhstan leaves it before it commences though as it will only be Russia + Belarus.
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The Eurasian Customs Union. Putin's idea as the platform to reinvent the USSR, I call it CCCP MkII ;D This Customs Union will mean nothing if Kazakhstan leaves it before it commences though as it will only be Russia + Belarus.
Ah, you call it!
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Putin got Crimea.
Saying that is like a necrophiliac bragging about his conquest. So what? Crimea is an economic basket case. Even the Putin admirers admit that which is why the land bridge is so necessary.
He's getting his way in Ukraine more than the West is.
(http://america.aljazeera.com/content/ajam/articles/2014/5/30/pro-russian-rebelsinukrainecollecttheirdeadandaskwhereisputin/_jcr_content/mainpar/textimage_0/image.img.png)
At best, that statement is subject and even you concede it can be argued the other way. He picked a fight with a country the size of Texas with double the population of Texas.
In other words, he's winning. When he' stops acquiring real estate, he understands in a few years the sanctions will go away and everybody will be back to business as usual.
Seriously? Business as usual? Would you do business in Russia? Who in their right mind would want to go there? What can be got there that can't be got somewhere else with less headache and cheaper. I don't know what Jackson Pollack you are looking at, but as a businessman and you if you had surplus capital would you really invest it in a place like Russia?
The Europeans have to buy gas from them, but drive the price of gas below $ 90 and they are Zimbabawe with nukes. Mexico and Egypt are less a failed state than the land that Vlad rules.
Unless the West is willing to do more than sanctions, Putin is going to win.
Despite the froth of Putin's admirers here and elsewhere, the West has been a non-actor in this whole affair even before Euromaidan. There is NO WAY Putin is going to win. He is waging a Chechen style war which isn't working in Syria. And its not working Ukraine.
He may take Ukraine. He is modernizing his Army very rapidly. He has failed to take the parts of Ukraine that he wants. But he may take Ukraine. We took Iraq very easily. It was holding Iraq that was hard.
Even if the West armed the Ukrainians with muskets, there is no way in God's green earth Putin will in Ukraine. he doesn't have the Army to or the strategic maneuver to fight and win an insurgency which is what he will have if he tries to hold Ukraine.
Also what is going to happen when Putin takes Ukraine. Poroshenko is gone, in exile or dead. Who takes over the resistance? It will probably be someone more radical. Where will he get his funding? From the CIA? No. From the Qataris, people even more amoral than anyone here. Ukrainians can more easily slide in and out of Russian society than Dagestanis and Chechens. This new Ukrainian resistance will start a terror campaign inside Russia. Ukraine will be a bleeding ground for conscripts sent a kind of European Afghanistan. It is madness, but this is the kind of insanity that happens when you ride the back of the tiger and risk all on the fortunes of war.
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how is it linked?
You sell the product, you want money for it.
Russia bought a president, they want benefits from the nation the president is from. Don't think Russia didn't gain anything.
Crimea is an economic basket case.
Crimea got Putin up to 80% popularity rating at home. Russia also gains access to more of the Black Sea which hold a trillion dollars worth of natural resources. If Crimea is a basket case, give it to me. I'll drain it only for a billion and everybody else can have the leftovers.
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Ah, you call it!
I can't take credit for the terminology, I am fairly sure I have read some journalists refer to it in similar terms :) But I don't think it will come about after Putin's aggression on Ukraine. This will hasten the demise of the 'Russosphere' IMHO. What we have is a cultural/civilisational zone descending into internal war and chaos. This happens when Empires are in serious decline and are starting to decay. The long term beneficiary of Putin's stupidity will be China I predict.
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Crimea got Putin up to 80% popularity rating at home.
And Hitler made no public appearances after Stalingrad . . .
Russia also gains access to more of the Black Sea which hold a trillion dollars worth of natural resources.
Hitler was master of Europe in 1942. He wanted peace with Britain in 1940 after he took over France. You know the rest of the story. You are looking at this all wrong Billy. You can slap and beat a woman into she is on the edge of death. The fact is she is still a woman and if that woman is your wife, you are a monster. There is no disguising who Putin is anymore. That is why Putin's legion of admirers are dwindling and embarrassed by him.
If Crimea is a basket case, give it to me. I'll drain it only for a billion and everybody else can have the leftovers.
You will be known forever as a thief and meet a thief's fate. If you were to trade places with the biggest loser you know and Stalin at the height of his power and you had to face Saint Peter, who would you rather be?
He can't win, Billy. Not in the near term or short term, why you can't see that. I don't know.
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Who are you to dictate what a fair price for gas is? Russia is free to charge what the market will bear. The west doesn't sit on the resource yet appartently still thinks they should dictate a 'fair' price.
Fathertime!
Nobody is "dictating what a fair price of gas" is. What has been arbitrated is terms of contracts. Gazprom has lost most of those arbitrations because it didn't charge in accordance with the contract it signed.
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War is a beast that cannot be tamed easily, once it is off the leash the person who released it cannot necessarily control where it finishes. Proven historical dynamic that has been repeated over and over again.
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Ukraine got it for free.
No, it didn't. The disputes between Gazprom and Ukraine almost always have a background of dispute on the fundamentals of the terms of the contract. In each case, Ukraine has paid its debt. That likely would have been the case with the current dispute, which is heading to arbitration, had Russia not invaded Ukraine (first by proxy, then directly).
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Clearly if given the chance western powers would turn Russia into a slave state if they could through neocolonialism and multinationals. You got western people trying to dictate the price russia sells their gas at while I paid 100 dollars for small part on my Grohe (German) faucet. Russia can charge what they feel they need to until somebody sells for less and takes their customers away.
Fathertime!
Markets dictate the price when the contracts are negotiated. Arbitration courts decide if the price negotiated, which is usually based on several factors, is what was actually charged.
Russia has a habit, through Gazprom, of using gas as political leverage. It has been able to do that with Ukraine, which is a weak state, and to some degree, with the EU, because EU countries had extensive business interests in Russia. But, it appears those days are over. Russia has signed a contract with China that all experts have stated is far, far, less lucrative than its sales to the EU. This crisis has also awoken the EU to the dangers of relying on a thug regime for its gas. It may as well deal with Iran.
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Even as I despise Putin and the majority of Russians who support him, it is foolish to think that he is not winning or that his actions mean the downfall of Russia, etc.
The world has too many problems right now in too many places.
The citizens of USA and the government of USA are tired of all these problems and don't want to get further involved. The same goes for the western European countries.
Our current time has given Putin a huge opportunity and he is taking it. Putin and Russia will end up keeping all territory that they want to, and all sanctions against Russia will be lifted. The world will let out a sigh of relief that it is over, except for the citizens of Ukraine and the families who have lost loved ones.
At some point in the future, Russia will move again against other countries.
And at some more distant point, the countries of the world will say; how did we let this happen. We saw what happened with Germany's expansion pre-WWII and vowed it would not happen again. But we did let it happen.
I only hope that the USA will stop issuing visitors visas to all Russians. They are a thoroughly despicable people.
It doesn't matter how many of you say, oh no, my parent's in law are wonderful people, the Russian people are so great and warm once you get into their homes, bla bla bla.
Everyone here knows it down deep just how rotten to the core these people are, but can't for obvious reasons bring yourselves to say it or even think it.
I don't believe most Russians are rotten to the core, nor despicable.
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Nobody is "dictating what a fair price of gas" is. What has been arbitrated is terms of contracts. Gazprom has lost most of those arbitrations because it didn't charge in accordance with the contract it signed.
bo as per usual FT /DOLL havnt read up on gazprom and how they operate
SX
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The long term beneficiary of Putin's stupidity will be China
The benefits to China should start to flow in the near future. China gets gas at a rock bottom price, and a junior partner in Russia to boss around. Not a bad deal for China at all...
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China would rather be our frenemy than partner with Russia where it is the senoir partner.
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bo as per usual FT /DOLL havnt read up on gazprom and how they operate
SX
I'd say that YOU are the one that needs to catch up on the reading. You made no mention of the things bothius spoke of. You can check for ypurself but your complaint was regarding pricing based on volume and how weak the country was, not specifically the sudden change of pricing on a previously negoiated contract which is not something i was necessarily defending. I think you are now changing your story. Are you going to admit to changing your argument?
Fathertime!
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I don't believe most Russians are rotten to the core, nor despicable.
Boe, listen what our Big Brothers tell you to do (think). :D
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I'd say that YOU are the one that needs to catch up on the reading. You made no mention of the things bothius spoke of. You can check for ypurself but your complaint was regarding pricing based on volume and how weak the country was, not specifically the sudden change of pricing on a previously negoiated contract which is not something i was necessarily defending. I think you are now changing your story. Are you going to admit to changing your argument?
Fathertime!
FT, leave them alone!
It is hard to talk to brainwashed people.
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FT, leave them alone!
It is hard to talk to brainwashed people.
No, no, I find interesting to read this discussion. Incompetence of brainwashed people is amusing, as well as their reaction to crush of Matrix they are living in.
BTW, the price of gas for Chinа (~350$/1000 m) is close to that one for Germany. Production cost (cost of only gas extraction) in 2012 was slightly above 30$/1000 m. Main part of gas price is taxes, so though 350 $/1000 m could be not very good for Gazprom this price is just fine for Russia.
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The $350 per thousand cubic meters you cite, Belvis, is analysts' speculation, as the terms of the contract are not disclosed.
Western Europe paid, on average, $380.50 per thousand cubic meters to Gazprom in 2013. Eastern Europe paid more.
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No, no, I find interesting to read this discussion. Incompetence of brainwashed people is amusing, as well as their reaction to crush of Matrix they are living in.
BTW, the price of gas for Chinа (~350$/1000 m) is close to that one for Germany. Production cost (cost of only gas extraction) in 2012 was slightly above 30$/1000 m. Main part of gas price is taxes, so though 350 $/1000 m could be not very good for Gazprom this price is just fine for Russia.
Brlvis, it is amusing till it stinks))))
Hahaaaaaaaaaaaaaa- all 150 MLN people are rotten.
Like they know more than one or two.
I know it is trolling though.
Crush the matrix- this is what it is. They will never understand Russian mentality.
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The $350 per thousand cubic meters you cite, Belvis, is analysts' speculation, as the terms of the contract are not disclosed.
Western Europe paid, on average, $380.50 per thousand cubic meters to Gazprom in 2013. Eastern Europe paid more.
How do YOU know?
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Because Gazprom and the Chinese have so stated.
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The $350 per thousand cubic meters you cite, Belvis, is analysts' speculation, as the terms of the contract are not disclosed.
You're right, the accurate numbers is commercial classified information. However I cited the lowest price in analysts' speculation which is based on leakage from Gazprom like this one: http://ria.ru/economy/20140523/1008970114.html
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You're right Doll..it is hard to talk with brainwashed people.
One could say Stirlitz was somewhat brainwashed in his understanding about Russian people..but now he's stepped outside of the Matrix and seen the light, and now realizes the truth about Russia and it's people.
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BTW, the price of gas for Chinа (~350$/1000 m) is close to that one for Germany. Production cost (cost of only gas extraction) in 2012 was slightly above 30$/1000 m. Main part of gas price is taxes, so though 350 $/1000 m could be not very good for Gazprom this price is just fine for Russia.
I do not know what extraction tax Russia charges the gas producer, yet in long-distance natural gas deals such as that proposed between China and Russia the largest cost component is typically the amortization of pipeline construction. Pipelines are major investments, necessitating long term contracts among the producer, transmitter and user.
BTW, the quoted price of $350/1000cm is about three times the spot price in the US. Gas prices in the US have declined significantly due to the rapid development of shale gas, which will continue to grow in volume for decades. Paying only 33% of what Asian and European industries pay gives a competitive advantage to American manufacturers in many industries, e. g., chemicals industry. Predictions show that the glut of natural gas will make the US a net exporter of gas (as LNG). Most of this export will be to Asia, yet Russia's political policies may mean more to Europe as well.
Now Fathertime, GQ , et al can claim that the turmoil in Ukraine was initiated and supported by US energy companies just to make more money.
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You're right Doll..it is hard to talk with brainwashed people.
One could say Stirlitz was somewhat brainwashed in his understanding about Russian people..but now he's stepped outside of the Matrix and seen the light, and now realizes the truth about Russia and it's people.
Honestly, I am at a loss...
People who thinks all Russians "rotten" - what are you doing on this forum?
The forum is about Russians - do not you want to avoid it like a plague?
Could you please share your motivation? Thank you in advance.
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The heading may say RUSSIAN women discussion,but it covers all FSU women,including Ukraine..you know the country that Russia has invaded and killed citizens of ?
The fact that Putins popularity has soared in Russia since his invasion and theft of Crimea,and the continuing support of the majority of Russian people for his killing fields in Ukraine against their little brothers and sisters,says all we need to know about Russians.
They shouldn't be cheerleading too much though..magnify the comments of Stirlitz by many millions and that is what Russia has now created on it's border.
People who have lost everything,their families and homes,now have nothing to lose..just imagine the terrorist havoc they can now cause in Russia,let alone the ongoing war of attrition in Ukraine which may well last years..that is the legacy Putin will leave Russia .
Don't believe me ? Well imagine if the roles were reversed how the Russians would react....Ukrainians are not a people to mess with.
Afghanistan will seem like a walk in the park for Russian troops compared to what Ukraine will become..and remind us how that went for you ?
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The same usual suspects engaged all weekend long on the same worn-out issue...LOL. Life is grand indeed!
Kiev is very close in accepting the VERY SAME deal in Eastern Ukraine (self-governance/representation or outright autonomy) which they initially refused. They could've avoided almost 3,000 deaths and billions of dollars in war damages months ago had Poroshenko just ignored the EU/US's bidding and call the Kremlin's bluff and negotiated with the rebels. Now they find themselves in such a dubious position of agreeing to the same exact thing.
I hope Ukraine understands now that the EU's interest in Ukraine is simply economics - NOT to get in any war or die for it. Not especially with a country they get their gas from now that winter is fast approaching. Ukraine is alone in dying for this one which is the sad part. The EU/US dared the kid to jump off the ledge without letting him know no one's below to catch him.
Disclose the MH17 investigation results!!!!
YES for Scotland! Seek your independence and enjoy your own resources and sell some of it back to the Queen for a princely sum...
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The heading may say RUSSIAN women discussion,but it covers all FSU women,including Ukraine..you know the country that Russia has invaded and killed citizens of ?
The fact that Putins popularity has soared in Russia since his invasion and theft of Crimea,and the continuing support of the majority of Russian people for his killing fields in Ukraine against their little brothers and sisters,says all we need to know about Russians.
They shouldn't be cheerleading too much though..magnify the comments of Stirlitz by many millions and that is what Russia has now created on it's border.
People who have lost everything,their families and homes,now have nothing to lose..just imagine the terrorist havoc they can now cause in Russia,let alone the ongoing war of attrition in Ukraine which may well last years..that is the legacy Putin will leave Russia .
Don't believe me ? Well imagine if the roles were reversed how the Russians would react....Ukrainians are not a people to mess with.
Afghanistan will seem like a walk in the park for Russian troops compared to what Ukraine will become..and remind us how that went for you ?
Thank you for your answer, Chealseaboy.
So, your disagreement with Russian Federation politics led you to this conclusion - all Russians are rotten.
Interesting, how people are different... I was totally appalled by England support for the criminal invasion and devastation in Iraq, but somehow it did not diminish my love for England and respect of English people...
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Honestly, I am at a loss...
People who thinks all Russians "rotten" - what are you doing on this forum?
The forum is about Russians - do not you want to avoid it like a plague?
Could you please share your motivation? Thank you in advance.
Chelseaboy never claimed all Russians are rotten.
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And if Scotland votes yes for independence there will be no English troops invading Scotland to wage a war against Scotland,nor any paid mercenaries.
Nor will there have been English troops in Scotland at the polling booths,encouraging people to vote against independence.
How's the house-hunting going in Crimea GQ ?
Nirvana awaits....LOL.
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And if Scotland votes yes for independence there will be no English troops invading Scotland to wage a war against Scotland,nor any paid mercenaries.
Nor will there have been English troops in Scotland at the polling booths,encouraging people to vote against independence....
YES for SCOTLAND!!!! It's close 51/49, but many feel it's about time to make the English bow to the Scots and have them earn THEIR keep. That's a whole lot of energy reserves the Queen won't be having her hands on...
...How's the house-hunting going in Crimea GQ ?
House hunting? I don't 'house-hunt' ChelseaBoy...I buy properties.
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Chelseaboy never claimed all Russians are rotten.
Right you are, Chelseaboy did not repeat verbatum the words of Drew: "Everyone here knows it down deep just how rotten to the core these people are, but can't for obvious reasons bring yourselves to say it or even think it."
However, Chelseaboy quite unequivocally supported Drew's point of view.
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Russian123,
The big difference being that the popularity of our leader didn't soar when we invaded Iraq..the majority of people here were against it and didn't believe the stories about WMD.
There was no cheerleading for our invasion..just everybody questioning where ARE these WMD ?
You know before your country decided to invade Ukraine i'm sure the majority of Ukrainians would have trusted any Russian over a westerner..they won't now that's for sure.
And don't put words in my mouth..read again what i said..i said the MAJORITY of Russians support Putins killing fields in Ukraine..i'm well aware there were decent Russians out in the streets protesting against it..but very much a minority.
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The big difference being that the popularity of our leader didn't soar when we invaded Iraq..the majority of people here were against it and didn't believe the stories about WMD.
There was no cheerleading for our invasion..just everybody questioning where ARE these WMD ?
You know before your country decided to invade Ukraine i'm sure the majority of Ukrainians would have trusted any Russian over a westerner..they won't now that's for sure.
And don't put words in my mouth..read again what i said..i said the MAJORITY of Russians support Putins killing fields in Ukraine..i'm well aware there were decent Russians out in the streets protesting against it..but very much a minority.
This, coming from a country that invaded, colonized, enslaved untold millions in it's history. It is rather absurd for you to be taking such a condemning position C-Boy...LOL!
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Kiev is very close in accepting the VERY SAME deal in Eastern Ukraine (self-governance/representation or outright autonomy) which they initially refused. They could've avoided almost 3,000 deaths and billions of dollars in war damages months ago had Poroshenko just ignored the EU/US's bidding and call the Kremlin's bluff and negotiated with the rebels. Now they find themselves in such a dubious position of agreeing to the same exact thing.
No, it is not what was demanded originally. Originally, the demand was for full independence.
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Russian123,
The big difference being that the popularity of our leader didn't soar when we invaded Iraq..the majority of people here were against it and didn't believe the stories about WMD.
There was no cheerleading for our invasion..just everybody questioning where ARE these WMD ?
You know before your country decided to invade Ukraine i'm sure the majority of Ukrainians would have trusted any Russian over a westerner..they won't now that's for sure.
And don't put words in my mouth..read again what i said..i said the MAJORITY of Russians support Putins killing fields in Ukraine..i'm well aware there were decent Russians out in the streets protesting against it..but very much a minority.
The popularity of Mr Tony Blair did not soar? I was not in England at that time, so I believe you.
I worked in USA from 2000 till April this year, and I saw with my own eyes in 2003, how enthusiastic Americans were about their precious leader, Mr George W. Bush, and how minuscule was the number of dissidents.
So what, I have to despise the majority of Americans? Somehow, it never occurred to me. Again - people are different.
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No, it is not what was demanded originally. Originally, the demand was for full independence.
It didn't demand Kiev for independence. Independence is not something one can 'demand'. Anymore than Kiev can *demand* independence from Moscow.
What it requested in the beginning was for Russian annexation which the Kremlin denied. It instead wanted greater authority for self-governance, in which the Parliament vociferously denied, leading to the the fisticuffs (led by svodoba party) in the parliamentary session (again) and ultimately the repulsion of the communist party.
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What a typically inane comment from you GQ
How many countries has England invaded,colonized and enslaved untold millions from in your lifetime ?
Seems you live in the past,so if you're such a morally strong person why do you choose to live in a country that stole the land from Red Indians ?
Makes you a hypocrite.
Keep trying though ;)
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What a typically inane comment from you GQ
How many countries has England invaded,colonized and enslaved untold millions from in your lifetime ?
Seems you live in the past,so if you're such a morally strong person why do you choose to live in a country that stole the land from Red Indians ?
Makes you a hypocrite.
:ROFL:
Do you realize that factual events are historical in nature, C-Boy? You can't be this dense. If it hasn't happened, regardless of certainty, then it is not *yet* a factual event.
So, to lay out *factual* information, one must present things that had already occurred and are known to be factual.
An ex-convict is simply that, an ex-convict. His behavior in the future doesn't take away from the fact he was previously convicted of a crime.
Think very slowly on this one so it doesn't confuse you any further.
;)
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It didn't demand Kiev for independence. Independence is not something one can 'demand'. Anymore than Kiev can *demand* independence from Moscow.
What it requested in the beginning was for Russian annexation which the Kremlin denied. It instead wanted greater authority for self-governance, in which the Parliament vociferously denied, leading to the the fisticuffs (led by svodoba party) in the parliamentary session (again) and ultimately the repulsion of the communist party.
No, that is inaccurate. What those who stormed buildings in Ukraine demanded was independence. There was no request for annexation by Russia.
The Rada fight occurred after communists accused Svoboda of being the cause of the unrest.
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And just answer my question GQ instead of trying to deflect..that doesn't work with me. :)
Two questions actually ;)
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No, that is inaccurate. What those who stormed buildings in Ukraine demanded was independence. There was no request for annexation by Russia....
Those *who stormed buildings in Ukraine* are not official representative of the bodies at work Boethius. Anymore than you can say those who looted in Ferguson are representative of the neighborhood's cause. You're just trying to be coy here.
....The Rada fight occurred after communists accused Svoboda of being the cause of the unrest.
The Rada fight occurred because the communist party wanted more leverage in their respective regions.
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And just answer my question GQ instead of trying to deflect..that doesn't work with me. :)
Two questions actually ;)
You don't have a question to ask because you're much too dense to even understand what was already elaborately explained to you.
Now if you'd like to discuss American Indians and the marauding/invading European forces that ultimately ousted the indigenous population of the Americas, it doesn't make me hypocrite the likes of you. Why?
Because I don't sit here condemning another country for the ill it causes others the way that you do knowing full well what my country's historical legacy is. I have the guts to admit my country's fault when it's wrong..like I am with this crisis/conflict.
Dude, you seriously need to learn and understand your own country's historical legacy so it doesn't make you look like an imbecile every time issues like this comes up.
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Kiev is very close in accepting the VERY SAME deal in Eastern Ukraine (self-governance/representation or outright autonomy) which they initially refused.
The terms of the ceasefire are not the terms of a settlement. The ceasefire is designed merely to stop hostilities so diplomacy can work and negotiate a peaceful settlement. Will it happen? If I were Kiev, I would not accept anything less than Russia's withdrawal confirmed by independent and unfettered observers. And that will not happen without accepting some level of self-autonomy.
I agree with you that it does not appear NATO will come to the aid of the Ukrainians with anything substantial. I guess NATO is too busy building up in NATO member states bordering Russia, wondering who is next.
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So,you still haven't answered my questions with a straight answer...getting uncomfortable there are we GQ ?..
I see you're having to resort to personal insults,your normal mode of operation on here..so predictable :rolleyes:
As for your previous comment about ex -convicts...once again you're living in the past..since when have a convicts future children been held accountable for his past misdeeds ?..only in your own little world obviously
Now,so this can sink into your little brain..here are some facts.Russia has invaded Ukraine and stolen it's land this year and guess what ? Yessss that's in your lifetime..not in the past..but now,so let's stick to the present shall we ?
If and when England invades another country,killing it's people and steals it's land in your lifetime,then you can come back to me..got it ?
We're all well aware of your distaste for the west ,and your tedious and repetitive conspiracy theories,none of which have been proven..but hey you stay in your own little world.
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So,you still haven't answered my questions with a straight answer...getting uncomfortable there are we GQ ?..
I see you're having to resort to personal insults,your normal mode of operation on here..so predictable :rolleyes:
As for your previous comment about ex -convicts...once again you're living in the past..since when have a convicts future children been held accountable for his past misdeeds ?..only in your own little world obviously
Now,so this can sink into your little brain..here are some facts.Russia has invaded Ukraine and stolen it's land this year and guess what ? Yessss that's in your lifetime..not in the past..but now,so let's stick to the present shall we ?
If and when England invades another country,killing it's people and steals it's land in your lifetime,then you can come back to me..got it ?
We're all well aware of your distaste for the west ,and your tedious and repetitive conspiracy theories,none of which have been proven..but hey you stay in your own little world.
OY!
Dude...study your history. It is fast becoming you're much too ignorant of it to be allowed loose in the internet.
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And you're too ignorant about everything to be let loose on the internet,but unfortunately we have to put up with your inane ramblings.
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If and when England invades another country,killing it's people and steals it's land in your lifetime,then you can come back to me..got it ?
Yeah GQ you leave England out of this! Just because they colonized and enslaved half the world and have been riding that unfair advantage ever since, that doesn't mean there's anything behind the curtain. So be a good little chap and stop pointing out the gross hypocrisy being displayed. After all look at all the Russian speaking colonies flung all around the world. :rolleyes:
Fathertime!
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Russia has a habit, through Gazprom, of using gas as political leverage. It has been able to do that with Ukraine, which is a weak state, and to some degree, with the EU, because EU countries had extensive business interests in Russia. But, it appears those days are over. Russia has signed a contract with China that all experts have stated is far, far, less lucrative than its sales to the EU. This crisis has also awoken the EU to the dangers of relying on a thug regime for its gas. It may as well deal with Iran.
Bo, using things like gas or banking as political leverage seems pretty normal nowadays. Ask the Swiss. haha
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Ahhh here's the other HUGE hypocrite on here..Fathertime,they say birds of a feather stick together LOL.
Fathertime,you're another one who pontificates on here about how evil the west is..yet continue to live there.
Why don't you get off your ass and go and live in Russia,then at least you'll have a crumb of credibility on here.
I'll say something about the Russians,unlike you they're not cowardly and they have national pride in their country..something which is beyond your comprehension.
You have no interest in anybody but yourself..as long as you're ok,you don't care who lives or dies.
All your postings are me me me..please don't send troops anywhere USA,i might get involved in a war ..pleeeease.
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Those *who stormed buildings in Ukraine* are not official representative of the bodies at work Boethius. Anymore than you can say those who looted in Ferguson are representative of the neighborhood's cause. You're just trying to be coy here.
No, those who stormed the buildings are exactly the same ones who declared themselves the leaders of their "republics" and demanded independence.
The Rada fight occurred because the communist party wanted more leverage in their respective regions.
No, in Symonenko's speech, he accused Svoboda of being the cause of the problems in Eastern Ukraine.
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Ahhh here's the other HUGE hypocrite on here..Fathertime,they say birds of a feather stick together LOL.
Fathertime,you're another one who pontificates on here about how evil the west is..yet continue to live there.
Why don't you get off your ass and go and live in Russia,then at least you'll have a crumb of credibility on here.
I'll say something about the Russians,unlike you they're not cowardly and they have national pride in their country..something which is beyond your comprehension.
You have no interest in anybody but yourself..as long as you're ok,you don't care who lives or dies.
All your postings are me me me..please don't send troops anywhere USA,i might get involved in a war ..pleeeease.
Looks like you need a third grade vocabulary review..lets see if I can help you.
1st... defining a hypocrite as a person that doesn't want his country to get involved with another isn't a proper definition. a hypocrite is an english man who cries foul because another country is taking away another potential slave state
2nd...because a person has a love of country doesn't make them 'brave'. you probably delight in your county's conquest, but you don't appear brave. .. Do you understand chap?
Now onto YOU...every whining post is 'putin' this 'putin' that putin putin putin. ...yeah I'd rather focus on myself and my county's actions, rather impotently whine about 'putin'...our country isn't about to break up like yours yet..too bad first you lose all your colonies, and now the little country doesn't even want to stay together...good...
I think I'll stay right where I am and continue speaking out against our ridiculous foreign policy that good old great Britain follows along with like a good puppy dog.
Fathertime!
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They will never understand Russian mentality Great Russian Chauvinism.
Fixed.
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The $350 per thousand cubic meters you cite, Belvis, is analysts' speculation, as the terms of the contract are not disclosed.
Western Europe paid, on average, $380.50 per thousand cubic meters to Gazprom in 2013. Eastern Europe paid more.
It should be obvious why the terms of the contract have not been disclosed. If the analysts estimates are close, then it's obvious that Russia is losing in the long term, and China is winning. China clearly had the better position to bargain from at the start of these negotiations (this time around).
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No, those who stormed the buildings are exactly the same ones who declared themselves the leaders of their "republics" and demanded independence....
No one can *demand* independence, Boe..you can demand, initiate, enact and ultimately vote on a referendum for independence, but not in of itself 'independence'. You'll need a general consensus for a legitimate *demand independence*. IINM, even Putin at the time that such a declaration was silly. He hailed Ukraine's move for an early (May) presidential election to a step in the right direction to help quell the conflict in eastern Ukraine. Even followed that up in a meeting in France the following month.
The bottom line in this is, it would seem at this point, since obviously military actions will prove futile to establish peace in the region, that all the loses were simply idiotic if the east do in fact establishes full autonomy when they could've avoided all of these had they waited for the next presidential election term.
...No, in Symonenko's speech, he accused Svoboda of being the cause of the problems in Eastern Ukraine.
...and henceforth a protracted representation of the region but instead they were ushered out. Boe...how many fights had happened in the Rada since January? 4-5? How many since the illegal coup? 2-3? Who are we kidding here when we say these are all for 'change' in Ukraine?
I do hate to have to daily read Ukrainians dying for all these stupidity by people hungry for power.
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:ROFL:
Do you realize that factual events are historical in nature, C-Boy? You can't be this dense. If it hasn't happened, regardless of certainty, then it is not *yet* a factual event.
So, to lay out *factual* information, one must present things that had already occurred and are known to be factual.
An ex-convict is simply that, an ex-convict. His behavior in the future doesn't take away from the fact he was previously convicted of a crime.
Think very slowly on this one so it doesn't confuse you any further.
;)
I don't know the precise figures but I suspect that Imperial Russia is close to Great Britain for having done the things you mentioned. Chechnya was originally "conquered" in the 19th Century.
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I don't know the precise figures but I suspect that Imperial Russia is close to Great Britain for having done the things you mentioned. Chechnya was originally "conquered" in the 19th Century.
...now go share that with C-Boy.
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Fathertime,
England is my country..since when is it about to break up ? :rolleyes:
A hypocrite is someone who is happy to accept all the benefits of living in a country,but constantly whines about how bad that country is.The hypocrite of course won't actually choose to live in another country that he defends no matter whatever the actions of that country are.
As for Putin,you know the guy you won't have a word said against,ask Ukrainian people how they feel about him..try a few Georgians too.
What's up..did a few Ukrainian girls reject you ? Can't say i'm surprised if they did..they like MEN.
As for bravery,well i've served my time in the Fleet Air Arm..and i've been to war,so once again you show your ignorance.
Keep making yourself look stupid though.
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Fixed.
Interesting article about the rebirth of Russian chauvinism:
"President Vladimir Putin is not as all-powerful as the czars or Joseph Stalin, but he has effectively emasculated domestic opposition to his rule. The institutions of a liberal democracy exist in his Russia – political parties, elections, news media – but they are paper airplanes against his steel.
He will, by such means as he deems appropriate, restore Russia to its past greatness, as he defines it. He will rewrite Russian school texts, give large latitude to the Orthodox Church, execute grand projects (such as the Sochi Olympics), allow oligarchs to enrich themselves provided that they support him (just as oligarchs did in czarist times), deploy the agencies of the state to produce internal revenues and secure domestic order, and extend Russia’s influence, where possible, over contiguous geographic territories – be they in Central Asia, the Caucusus, Belarus and now Ukraine.
Ukraine is where the shoe pinches most, because it is splintered between its western Ukrainian-speaking portion, which looks to Europe, and its Russian-speaking eastern portion, which gazes at Moscow. Ukraine is large in geography but weak in almost everything else: energy dependent, badly governed, much indebted. No amount of nostalgia or Ukrainian diaspora support can mask these weaknesses, the reality of which Mr. Putin completely understands."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-debate/the-return-of-great-russian-chauvinism/article17298477/
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Fathertime,
England is my country..since when is it about to break up ? :rolleyes:
A hypocrite is someone who is happy to accept all the benefits of living in a country,but constantly whines about how bad that country is.The hypocrite of course won't actually choose to live in another country that he defends no matter whatever the actions of that country are.
As for Putin,you know the guy you won't have a word said against,ask Ukrainian people how they feel about him..try a few Georgians too.
What's up..did a few Ukrainian girls reject you ? Can't say i'm surprised if they did..they like MEN.
As for bravery,well i've served my time in the Fleet Air Arm..and i've been to war,so once again you show your ignorance.
Keep making yourself look stupid though.
I'm glad I could help you with definitions of the basic 3rd grade words...I noticed reading isn't a strong point for you either so maybe that will be next.
I enjoyed my brief time in Ukraine....the lady I spent most of my time with was strictly pro-Russian...and anti 'orange revolution' in 2005....
You don't act much like a man, so I am not surprised you are sitting alone....women do like men that take care of THEIR business....not get involved in everyone elses....
lets hear some more 'putin this' 'putin that' since it will take your mind off your own soon to be broken country!
Fathertime!
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...
A hypocrite is someone who is happy to accept all the benefits of living in a country,but constantly whines about how bad that country is.The hypocrite of course won't actually choose to live in another country that he defends no matter whatever the actions of that country are....
No. That's called 'freedom' and 'democracy'. Having the ability not only to choose your leaders through election (eherm...not bloodlines), and the ability to call out and criticize your government whom you feel runs afoul.
A hypocrite is condemning a society of a nation for the action of it's leader/s in doing exactly the same things his own country's leaders have done.
Sort of like a robber calling out thief.
Now which part of YOUR nation's criminal history you want to start with?
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If anyone wants to examine brutal treatment of colonies, you should Google the history of Belgium in the Congo.
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If anyone wants to examine brutal treatment of colonies, you should Google the history of Belgium in the Congo.
Thank you, Gator. You reminded me:
Heart of Darkness by Josef Conrad - classic, highly acclaimed book about Congo and Belgium colonial administrators, written by a 'giant of English literature'.
Josef Conrad original name was Jozef Teodor Konrad Korzeniowski, he was born in 19th century in a city near Kiev, that is in Russia.
Who was Josef Conrad? English or Polish or Russian or Ukranian?
Are we to despise him and find 'rotten to the core', because Russian Empire had been 'pacifying' multiple nations right at that time?
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Conrad always self identified as a Pole, so I suppose we should consider him Polish.
I am not certain a writer who never viewed himself as Russian, and left the Russian Empire to settle in England is really the best example of a Russian.
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Thank you, Gator. You reminded me:
Heart of Darkness by Josef Conrad
Great read, many, many years ago when I had the travel bug. Not that long if I recall correctly. Thanks for refreshing my memory.
Based on what I later read about life in Africa circa 1900, Conrad did not adequately describe the brutal treatment of the Congolese peoples by white rulers and farmers. To quote one source:
Most have never heard of Belgium’s King Leopold II, but he should be regarded as a tyrant up there with Hitler and Stalin. Under his tyrannical rule over the modern-day Democratic Republic of Congo, about 10 million people – or half the population – died horrible deaths. Millions were forced to collect sap from rubber plants; those that missed their quotas had their hands chopped off.
The French and British were more civil, yet don't say that to Kenya, India, Ireland, Vietnam, etc.
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Hey Fathertime,
Have you worked out the difference between a country and a Kingdom yet ? :rolleyes:
Maybe you'd better learn that before you start pontificating about the affairs of other countries.
I see someone else has noticed what a coward you are..it's not difficult though,your posts reek of it.
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Based on what I later read about life in Africa circa 1900, Conrad did not adequately describe the brutal treatment of the Congolese peoples by white rulers and farmers. To quote one source:
Most have never heard of Belgium’s King Leopold II, but he should be regarded as a tyrant up there with Hitler and Stalin. Under his tyrannical rule over the modern-day Democratic Republic of Congo, about 10 million people – or half the population – died horrible deaths. Millions were forced to collect sap from rubber plants; those that missed their quotas had their hands chopped off.
To be fair to King Leopold, I would think it highly unlikely that he personally told the farmers to chop off the hands of the local peasantry if they didn't fill their buckets, or that he expressed any preference as to what sort of torture to inflict. With central Africa being a long way from Belgium, and the lack of communications facilities at the time, it would take months for any edicts or news to travel in either direction. Any telegraph offices that there may have been would surely have existed only in the capital at the time.
Hitler and Stalin, however, knew exactly what was going on throughout their empires, because they themselves were the architects of so much of the genocide which occurred during their reins of terror - and they had good communications systems in place.
The French and British were more civil, yet don't say that to Kenya, India, Ireland, Vietnam, etc.
Second-hand experience of "civility" that happened in Ireland - my paternal grandfather was a 19 year old in the Irish Republican Army during the Easter Rising of 1916, fighting for independence. He was captured by English soldiers, who offered him an ultimatum - join our Army, or we'll shoot you! :o (as they had done to his colleague). Pop, being a pragmatic sort of chap, decided to join the British Army - and saw independence finally come to Ireland a few years later. He stayed in the service for over 30 years (much of that in peacetime India), right through the Second World War and beyond, before bringing his wife and son (my father) to New Zealand in 1951.
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Hey Fathertime,
Have you worked out the difference between a country and a Kingdom yet ? :rolleyes:
Maybe you'd better learn that before you start pontificating about the affairs of other countries.
I see someone else has noticed what a coward you are..it's not difficult though,your posts reek of it.
Go ahead robin hood, go on over there and fight....mr 'brave guy'...show that 'woman cyber friend' what a brave person from your disintegrating kingdom do....instead of trying to use other people's children to bolster yourself......you have no excuse you aren't in a wheelchair...chickenhawk!
If not permitting chickenhawks like yourself from sending our young people into a conflict that isn't ours makes me a coward, then I'm the biggest coward ever! It is very brave of you to try to make others fight a fight that you want so badly. Your words and actions don't match...that is why you are still alone and your colony-less 'kingdom' is close to breaking up...
Fathertime!
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Just stop.
You're making things worse by talking. Your smear the queer name calling and influencing peddling days are over here, Win-Win. You quoted from Real Jew News - like what you posted was supposed to be funny. How other people did not see that content was offensive is a mystery to me.
You're done.
It's about par for the course to come on here dismiss a well constructed argument, go on a drive by name calling streak and accuse others of what you yourself are doing. Teenagers on 4chon do it. Middle aged geezers do it here. But posting anti-semitic smut, yeah. Wow.
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Fathertime,
Seems you're losing it there .
Your ignorance knows no limits..glad to see you've finally learnt the difference between a country and a Kingdom...not too bright are you ?
To further enhance your knowledge and show your foolishness,,i'm actually a reservist,so in the event of war i'd be called up.
Unlike you i don't hide behind children as an excuse for cowardice.
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GQ,
I see you're still droning on about ancient history,as a deflection against the current atrocities being carried out in Ukraine by pro -Russian separatists ..armed by your pals the Russians.
You've been unable to give a straight answer to my two simple questions,so i don't deem you worthy of any reply to any of your bygone ages questions.
Maybe you need to stop living in the past and wake up to present day reality.
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Fathertime,
Seems you're losing it there .
Your ignorance knows no limits..glad to see you've finally learnt the difference between a country and a Kingdom...not too bright are you ?
To further enhance your knowledge and show your foolishness,,i'm actually a reservist,so in the event of war i'd be called up.
Unlike you i don't hide behind children as an excuse for cowardice.
Yeah a nearing 60 year old reservist getting called up for the front lines….I simply don’t believe much of what you have said about yourself….it all sounds very self-serving.
If you are soooo convicted and brave why aren’t you already there? Why are you pretending to be waiting to be ‘called up’? You aren’t going anywhere and you know it….so we are back to you trying to get other people’s children to fight against ‘putin’ You actually don’t care much (if at all) if there is lots of dead Ukrainian bodies, just so long as Russia suffers.
Just stop.
You're making things worse by talking. Your smear the queer name calling and influencing peddling days are over here, Win-Win. You quoted from Real Jew News - like what you posted was supposed to be funny. How other people did not see that content was offensive is a mystery to me.
You're done.
It's about par for the course to come on here dismiss a well constructed argument, go on a drive by name calling streak and accuse others of what you yourself are doing. Teenagers on 4chon do it. Middle aged geezers do it here. But posting anti-semitic smut, yeah. Wow.
Don't forget to have your other persona(s) agree with you! Your anti-Semitic rant is just you pretending to be 'offended'! i have no anti-antisemitism in me, you on the other hand...who knows?
Fathertime!
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GQ,
I see you're still droning on about ancient history,as a deflection against the current atrocities being carried out in Ukraine by pro -Russian separatists ..armed by your pals the Russians.
You've been unable to give a straight answer to my two simple questions,so i don't deem you worthy of any reply to any of your bygone ages questions.
Maybe you need to stop living in the past and wake up to present day reality.
I think it is YOU that is living in the past. Why aren't you in Ukraine yet? Chickenhawk.
Fathertime!
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FT, you are clueless. I saw a lot of soldiers and reservists in Iraq of all ages. So unless you been there and done that, keep your chickenhawk comments to yourself literally and preferably when looking in the mirror and o btw, I challenge the "Real Jew News" reader to quote anything antisemitic I have said here or anywhere on the web.
Show me or be quiet.
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FT, you are clueless. I saw a lot of soldiers and reservists in Iraq of all ages. So unless you been there and done that, keep your chickenhawk comments to yourself literally and preferably when looking in the mirror and o btw, I challenge the "Real Jew News" reader to quote anything antisemitic I have said here or anywhere on the web.
Show me or be quiet.
I believe you are another chickenhawk. With all the whining you have done, you should have already been to Ukraine. You claim to still be young, so what are you waiting for? Seems like all talk from you.
Fathertime!
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Fathertime,
Your comments are once again idiotic in the extreme....are you going to pay my six figure salary ( that's in GBP by the way ) to replace my loss of income if i were to go and fight in Ukraine.?
If that's you in your avatar photo you need to grow up and act your age ...and stop making inane comments.
Interesting looking at our respective post counts..you actually post three times as much as i do..seems you're the one that needs to get a life,and maybe you're just a sad,old fantasist living alone.
I also notice you often post replies to comments directed toward GQ....before he replies....intriguing.
For someone claiming some posters on here have other persona,maybe you need to be looked at ..
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I have served my country in war. How about you? One of the men on this forum served his country by taking ROTC classes, have you even done? If you have done none of these things, why are you accusing others of being a chicken hawk?
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I have served my country in war. How about you? One of the men on this forum served his country by taking ROTC classes, have you even done? If you have done none of these things, why are you accusing others of being a chicken hawk?
I believe you are a chickenhawk as you are sitting on your rear end trying to get other people's children involved in a conflict we have no business in. I firmly hold that this is not our battle to escalate. I further hold, you have zero moral authority over anyone else here, if anything maybe a little less.
Fathertime!
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Move your arguments, which are irrelevant to the topic, to NHB. Any further off topic posts will be deleted.
For the record, posting with multiple identifications is not permitted on the forum. IP addresses are examined. If anyone has evidence that a poster is using multiple identifications, please report the poster, and the multiple handles, to the moderator staff. Proxies can be detected. If you are not willing to report multiple identities to the mod staff, do not make unfounded accusations.
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I have moved the last post in the thread, so you can continue your off topic conversation.
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The world has too many problems right now in too many places.
The citizens of USA and the government of USA are tired of all these problems and don't want to get further involved. The same goes for the western European countries.
Our current time has given Putin a huge opportunity and he is taking it. Putin and Russia will end up keeping all territory that they want to, and all sanctions against Russia will be lifted. The world will let out a sigh of relief that it is over, except for the citizens of Ukraine and the families who have lost loved ones.
What do "the citizens of USA and the government of USA " have to do with the conflict?
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What do "the citizens of USA and the government of USA " have to do with the conflict?
They shouldn't but unfortunately our government likes to meddle into the affairs of other nations while crying injustice when other countries do the same.
I think most citizens are against such actions but our government really isn't "for the people" any longer. Then again I could be wrong, there seems to be plenty of people here who have no problem with meddling as long as they think it is the best for the people. Very arrogant line of thinking if you ask me.
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They shouldn't but unfortunately our government likes to meddle into the affairs of other nations while crying injustice when other countries do the same...
Like Syria, for instance. The US have no problem flying in and out of any country's territory and airspace without any proper approval - and sometimes bombing and killing its citizens (Libya) - but sanctions anyone else who do the same.
DC is about to embark in arming a terrorist group fighting against a democratically elected government of a sovereign nation (Syria), in the guise of aiding a group who are at odds with ISIS without so much as getting any resolution through the UN; but is benevolent in their condemnation of Russia's alleged intervention in Ukraine, or anyone else for that matter.
We were all led to believe these (conflicts) are the reasons why we need the United Nations.
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Like Syria, for instance. The US have no problem flying in and out of any country's territory and airspace without any proper approval - and sometimes bombing and killing its citizens (Libya) - but sanctions anyone else who do the same.
From recollection, the US did the same in Pakistan with drones. I believe they killed an American there without due justice afforded to him as a US citizen.
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Live , it is none of Us business.
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Sure...Somalia and a host of other African nation not favored by Washington. Your liberal talking heads will convince you it is because of our generous attitudes and we just want to spread love and democracy everywhere even if it means it's a direct violation of international law to intervene, unauthorized entry of sovereign airspace, assassinations of heads of state, citizens (yes, even our own)...
but my oh-my, don't let anyone else be caught doing that or we'll sanction and punish your population and close all our McDonald's and KFCs..
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Live , it is none of Us business.
So what? For the US, that doesn't mean anything. We do what we want, whenever and to whomever...
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. Your liberal talking heads will convince you it is because of our generous attitudes and we just want to spread love and democracy everywhere even if it means it's a direct violation of international law to intervene, unauthorized entry of sovereign airspace, assassinations of heads of state, citizens (yes, even our own)...
but my oh-my, don't let anyone else be caught doing that or we'll sanction and punish your population and close all our McDonald's and KFCs..
+500
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but my oh-my, don't let anyone else be caught doing that or we'll sanction and punish your population and close all our McDonald's and KFCs..
Ha-Ha, I don't know how Russia will survive without MD or KFC
:D :D :D
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So what? For the US, that doesn't mean anything. We do what we want, whenever and to whomever...
except for doing it for Russia.
US tells Russia where and when it can move its troops.
It is like Russia will tell Us to not move troops in Texas.
haha
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except for doing it for Russia. US tells Russia where and when it can move its troops.
It is like Russia will tell Us to not move troops in Texas. haha
Well, in defense of my humble Apple Pie, we live in a very fickle world. You have morons screaming "Warmongers'! No Blood for Oil!" silliness when we get involved in conflicts we shouldn't be. But these same morons will be the first to piss in their pants if the US decided NOT to join a conflict and if the conflict happens to be within their sphere of interest or concern.
It's tough to be 'great'. Trust me, I know that personally. :P
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true
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Live , it is none of Us business.
The US has to do these things because of national security and to protect it's citizens. Does any of those excuses sound familiar? ;D
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US tells Russia where and when it can move its troops.
It is like Russia will tell Us to not move troops in Texas. another sovereign state they have invaded.
Fixed.
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So what? For the US, that doesn't mean anything. We do what we want, whenever and to whomever...
We do indeed, don't we? IIRC the USA is in about 170 countries, but there is just one small difference between US and Russia -- they want us there. Ukraine does not want Russia meddling in their country.
Capiche? Of course not. Some people are just stubborn and thick headed.
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Ha-Ha, I don't know how Russia will survive without MD or KFC
:D :D :D
The McDonalds there are owned by Russians and Russian companies. I don't know about the KFC's. Either way, McDonalds in Russia are always packed, when they are open. Apparently Russians like them. Perhaps Putler should shut down all Vodka companies, since they are a greater health risk, no?
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We do indeed, don't we? IIRC the USA is in about 170 countries, but there is just one small difference between US and Russia -- they want us there. Ukraine does not want Russia meddling in their country.
Capiche? Of course not. Some people are just stubborn and thick headed.
Really? Syria and Libya wanted us in their country? Can you please provide links or information supporting this stupidity? Last I know about, the US was fighting a very bloody war in Iraq against it's population for nearly a decade.
Which decaying, smelly snow cave in the Arctic did you crawled out of. Did you already forgot what I told you before about....
...fool..think...silence...speak....leave no doubt?
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(http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=18025.msg376266#msg376266)US tells Russia where and when it can move its troops.
It is like Russia will tell Us to not move troops in Texas another sovereign state they have invaded.
US strongly mind moving troops in Rostov Region in RF territory.</blockquote>
Fixed
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Really? Syria and Libya wanted us in their country? Can you please provide links or information supporting this stupidity? Last I know about, the US was fighting a very bloody war in Iraq against it's population for nearly a decade.
Which decaying, smelly snow cave in the Arctic did you crawled out of. Did you already forgot what I told you before about....
...fool..think...silence...speak....leave no doubt?
There are quite a few hypocrites here that think it is just fine for the USA to interfere with sovereign nations (because WE are the nanny and know best)....but if anybody other nation does something in the same vein, it is reason to start WWIII... Much of the world has come to see though our 'help'...it is best if we take care of our own business and let the rest of the world handle their own.
Fathertime!
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Yeah well, take for instance, military drills and exercises....
The US/NATO condemned Russia for conducting military exercises not too long ago - 1,000 kilometers from the border with Ukraine, citing it's provocative and inciting and escalating further unrest and conflict.
YET - they see no problem planning on conducting military/naval exercises on the Black Sea and includes the Ukrainian navy. LMAO!
It's a damned good thing we are NOT involved and had been fomenting this stupid crisis. :rolleyes:
Oh and the new sanctions went underway today. The EU, along with the US, targeted Russia's financial and energy sectors...the EU meticulously made sure it stayed away from anything that have to do with the delivery of gas, LOL.
If people weren't dying in this freaking conflict, it had the notion to be the most hysterical display of hypocrisy ever seen in a while.
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a very dangerous man
(http://www.kyivpost.com/media/images/2014/02/14/p18go0s1pcuh51ulp1cch1rvl15pf4/big.jpg)
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Yeah well, take for instance, military drills and exercises....
The US/NATO condemned Russia for conducting military exercises not too long ago - 1,000 kilometers from the border with Ukraine, citing it's provocative and inciting and escalating further unrest and conflict.
YET - they see no problem planning on conducting military/naval exercises on the Black Sea and includes the Ukrainian navy. LMAO!
It's a damned good thing we are NOT involved and had been fomenting this stupid crisis. :rolleyes:
Oh and the new sanctions went underway today. The EU, along with the US, targeted Russia's financial and energy sectors...the EU meticulously made sure it stayed away from anything that have to do with the delivery of gas, LOL.
If people weren't dying in this freaking conflict, it had the notion to be the most hysterical display of hypocrisy ever seen in a while.
The hypocrisy displayed by the USA has been off the charts. Many people see it nowadays, but are relatively powerless to do much about it...FOR NOW.
The sanctions are ineffective, and appear to be designed that way.
Fathertime!
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The hypocrisy displayed by the USA has been off the charts. Many people see it nowadays, but are relatively powerless to do much about it...FOR NOW.
The sanctions are ineffective, and appear to be designed that way.
Fathertime!
I completely agree with this
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Really? Syria and Libya wanted us in their country? Can you please provide links or information supporting this stupidity? Last I know about, the US was fighting a very bloody war in Iraq against it's population for nearly a decade.
Which decaying, smelly snow cave in the Arctic did you crawled out of. Did you already forgot what I told you before about....
...fool..think...silence...speak....leave no doubt?
Apparently you are not capable of reading or even watching the news. The Arab League invited the West, led by the USA, to do away with Qadaffi's forces, and then they finished him off. Do you dispute that? Not sure what 3rd World country you come from either, but it's obvious that English is not your first language. Especially when Mr. Stirlitz, who speaks, reads and writes fluent Russian because that's what he was born doing, writes far more precise English than you.
And yes, there are millions of Syrians who also have been begging for assistance from the USA and the EU. Of course you likely deny that they have been murdered with poisonous gas; so what they say doesn't matter to you, correct?
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Apparently you are not capable of reading or even watching the news. The Arab League invited the West, led by the USA, to do away with Qadaffi's forces, and then they finished him off. Do you dispute that?...
Don't be ignorant. No invitation by any nation to invade another country gives anyone the right to invade a sovereign nation. A UN resolution must first be in place giving passage for legal intervention. This is what happened in Libya. This is why nations, including the US, bombed its government officials and forces to oblivion. That should have explained to you WHY the US was there. Not because *they want us there*, LMAO.
Since then, the very same militants - the ones we armed and assisted for the coup - bombed our embassy and killed our ambassador and marines. An event your president lied to you about. Soon after that, they chased us all out of town. So *they wanting us there* is an idiotic statement to make. But considering it came from you, it is par for the course.
Iran took over 52 hostages and held them for 444 straight days when they took over our Embassy. Since then, we've had no delegations in Tehran and certainly it doesn't mean *they want us there*.
Pakistanis are bombed by our drones inside their border without the approval of the Pakistani government, the UN, nor anyone. That doesn't mean *they want us there*.
Ask any Okinawans if *they want us there*.
http://news.yahoo.com/plan-move-highlights-us-problem-okinawa-073216414.html
Ask any indigenous Hawaiians if they want to continue to be 5-0 much less *want us there*. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/20/feds-native-hawaiian-recognition_n_5516823.html
Do you think the majority of Germans/Europe *want us there*?
http://www.the-american-interest.com/blog/2012/05/22/shock-poll-51-of-voters-want-us-troops-out-of-europe/
I could go on to show you how ignorant you really are, but that is a clear exercise in futility.
... Not sure what 3rd World country you come from either, but it's obvious that English is not your first language. Especially when Mr. Stirlitz, who speaks, reads and writes fluent Russian because that's what he was born doing, writes far more precise English than you....
LMAO! Your pathetic attempt to disparage above only displayed your seething insecurity and deeply-seeded inferiority. A single language speaking person trying to insult a 4 language speaking person is downright laughable, if not outright stupid.
....And yes, there are millions of Syrians who also have been begging for assistance from the USA and the EU....
You see what I mean? Bashar Asaad just recently won a landslide presidential election with an 88.7% majority. For you to be shooting from the hip to make a very stupid remark about *millions of Syrians* begging us for assistance is just classically moronic.
Who are these *millions of Syrians*, I dare ask? LOL. Anyone you know? Masood and his goat? Maybe Abdullah and his cousins? What in the world is wrong with you?
Of course you likely deny that they have been murdered with poisonous gas; so what they say doesn't matter to you, correct?..
...and this has got to do with your claim about nations *wanting us to be there* exactly how?
Do you even have an idea how many times the US had gassed not only nations but even its own citizens? I bet you didn't, did you? Did we ever give a fock whatever other countries felt about our arrogance in this regard? Fcok no..
Dude...fool...silent...speak...NO DOUBT.
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US strongly mind moving troops in Rostov Region in RF territory.
You mean those troops that aka stationed in Rostav but dying on Ukrainian soil and buried worse that dogs still on Ukrainian soil? Or you mean troops aka stationed in Rostov that get shipped back to Russia from Ukraine in cargo 200? Oh my mistake I forgot kind Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev supplied in Rostov crematorium trucks, so now I assume you are talking about troops aka stationed in Rostov but returning home in ash urns? My mistake again russian authorities do not respect their service men, so you probably mean troops aka stationed in Rostov, returned from Ukraine in cargo 200, burned in crematorium trucks kindly supplied by caring russian authorities, ashes of who dumped somewhere who knows where and to families and relatives provided fairytale about those service men getting lost on Ukrainian border? Or do you actually mean those lucky ones who are stationed in Rostov few miles from Ukrainian border but at nights launching rockets and missiles over border?
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Apparently you are not capable of reading or even watching the news.
What news? US? :D
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You mean those troops that aka stationed in Rostav but dying on Ukrainian soil and buried worse that dogs still on Ukrainian soil? Or you mean troops aka stationed in Rostov that get shipped back to Russia from Ukraine in cargo 200? Oh my mistake I forgot kind Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev supplied in Rostov crematorium trucks, so now I assume you are talking about troops aka stationed in Rostov but returning home in ash urns? My mistake again russian authorities do not respect their service men, so you probably mean troops aka stationed in Rostov, returned from Ukraine in cargo 200, burned in crematorium trucks kindly supplied by caring russian authorities, ashes of who dumped somewhere who knows where and to families and relatives provided fairytale about those service men getting lost on Ukrainian border? Or do you actually mean those lucky ones who are stationed in Rostov few miles from Ukrainian border but at nights launching rockets and missiles over border?
I mean-it is the territory of RF. What does USA have to do with it?
(Dare to prove what you wrote in your post? Any official infor?)
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I mean-it is the territory of RF. What does USA have to do with it?
Donetsk, Luhansk and Mariupol is not territory of RF. Rostov is territory of RF but neither being territory of RF it is acceptable to use it for shooting missiles on territory of another sovereign state.
(Dare to prove what you wrote in your post? Any official infor?)
What do you consider to be 'official info'? Official info from Ukraine, USA and EU countries you are rejecting, russian authorities outright lying to everyone same way as they have lie previously so you won't get any truthful official info from them.
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Да ну ужОс. Мисс Амено, я по-русски уже: я пишу об "озабоченности" США о 1) учениях в Астрахани 2) передвижении рос войск по территории России (Рост область и иже). Рос-тов-ская область (и Астрахань).
Так понятно?
:cluebat:
Sorry guys for Russian- I couldn't ANY MORE write same things in English.
I am not Stirlitz with his perfect English. ;D
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Dude...fool...silent...speak...NO DOUBT.
RuPaul is right. Blame America for everything!
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-iUOlm_g7W9o/UaJRI4pUNPI/AAAAAAABUY8/BAoYI8fmWjA/s1600/Pavel-Petel-for-H-&-M.jpg)
And Russia is always right!
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You mean those troops that aka stationed in Rostav but dying on Ukrainian soil and buried worse that dogs still on Ukrainian soil? Or you mean troops aka stationed in Rostov that get shipped back to Russia from Ukraine in cargo 200? Oh my mistake I forgot kind Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev supplied in Rostov crematorium trucks, so now I assume you are talking about troops aka stationed in Rostov but returning home in ash urns? My mistake again russian authorities do not respect their service men, so you probably mean troops aka stationed in Rostov, returned from Ukraine in cargo 200, burned in crematorium trucks kindly supplied by caring russian authorities, ashes of who dumped somewhere who knows where and to families and relatives provided fairytale about those service men getting lost on Ukrainian border? Or do you actually mean those lucky ones who are stationed in Rostov few miles from Ukrainian border but at nights launching rockets and missiles over border?
Да, Россия всегда прав. смотрите на эти кадры. Это Ростов, Украина. Посмотрите, как укроп относиться друг к другу?
(http://englishrussia.com/images/newpictures/Flood-in-Rostov-on-Don-2014-Russia/rostov_41.jpg)
(http://media.englishrussia.com/newpictures/Flood-in-Rostov-on-Don-2014-Russia/rostov_03.jpg)
(http://media.englishrussia.com/newpictures/Flood-in-Rostov-on-Don-2014-Russia/rostov_04.jpg)
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You see what I mean? Bashar Asaad just recently won a landslide presidential election with an 88.7% majority. For you to be shooting from the hip to make a very stupid remark about *millions of Syrians* begging us for assistance is just classically moronic.
Who are these *millions of Syrians*, I dare ask? LOL. Anyone you know? Masood and his goat? Maybe Abdullah and his cousins? What in the world is wrong with you?
If we find our way into Syria and wind up somehow weakening Assad to the point where he is killed, then that will leave that option on the table for any other large powerful nation to do the same. If Russia were to concoct a reason to do the same with Porky, the USA would be 'aghast' with horror...although we would have done the same thing...of course we would frame it differently in order to make it 'seem' right.
Fathertime!
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If we find our way into Syria and wind up somehow weakening Assad to the point where he is killed, then that will leave that option on the table for any other large powerful nation to do the same. If Russia were to concoct a reason to do the same with Porky, the USA would be 'aghast' with horror...although we would have done the same thing...of course we would frame it differently in order to make it 'seem' right.
Fathertime!
Ever been to the Middle East? Yes or no
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IIRC the USA is in about 170 countries,
With Russia and China being active, that number went up. Recently, the Baltics, Poland, and Philippines are getting our troops.
Ask any Okinawans if *they want us there*.
http://news.yahoo.com/plan-move-highlights-us-problem-okinawa-073216414.html
Do you think the majority of Germans/Europe *want us there*?
http://www.the-american-interest.com/blog/2012/05/22/shock-poll-51-of-voters-want-us-troops-out-of-europe/
Those people who voted aren't responsible for the existence of the nation they live in. They did vote in the politicians to run their country. Fortunately their politicians are smarter than they.
No matter how you spin the majority of people in this world hate America, America is the first they call when they need help and if people of this world could vote on where they want to live, America is #1. Hate the truth all you want but I seriously doubt you are remotely considering moving back home to the Philippines or moving to your wife's country, Russia.
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Doll, you have also requested MissAmeno to provide any 'official source' to confirm information contained in her post, haven't you? :)
You mean those troops that aka stationed in Rostav but dying on Ukrainian soil and buried worse that dogs still on Ukrainian soil? Or you mean troops aka stationed in Rostov that get shipped back to Russia from Ukraine in cargo 200? Oh my mistake I forgot kind Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev supplied in Rostov crematorium trucks, so now I assume you are talking about troops aka stationed in Rostov but returning home in ash urns? My mistake again russian authorities do not respect their service men, so you probably mean troops aka stationed in Rostov, returned from Ukraine in cargo 200, burned in crematorium trucks kindly supplied by caring russian authorities, ashes of who dumped somewhere who knows where and to families and relatives provided fairytale about those service men getting lost on Ukrainian border? Or do you actually mean those lucky ones who are stationed in Rostov few miles from Ukrainian border but at nights launching rockets and missiles over border?
I mean-it is the territory of RF. What does USA have to do with it?
(Dare to prove what you wrote in your post? Any official infor?)
Quotes from the 'Weekly update from the OSCE Observer Mission at the Russian Checkpoints Gukovo and Donetsk, 28 August until 08:00, 3 September 2014'
''In the past weeks, artillery detonations and shootings had been heard only from western and northern directions; but throughout the week for the first time OTs reported light and heavy calibre shootings from the east and south-east areas which are also bordering Ukraine.
Throughout the week, OTs observed a net increase in activity of young people dressed in military style crossing back and forth at the Border Crossing Point. OTs also observed some of these people visibly wounded crossing back into the Russian Federation with white bandages and/or crutches. OTs also observed transfers of more seriously-wounded persons by ambulances. Some people dressed in military style were accompanying the wounded and were particularly well-equipped including holsters but without weapons.
In one instance, an OT observed eight young men dressed in military style carrying two heavy stretchers loaded with boxes. The stretchers were visibly heavy (more than a hundred kilograms) because the groups were stopping every 30 to 50 metres to recover. The OT observed Border Crossing Point officials checking the boxes with metal detectors. The OT asked Border Crossing Point officials about the content of the boxes and was told that it was food products''
I thought the ''unofficial info'' provided by ordinary Russian citizens who are not indifferent to what's going on in their country and Ukraine might be interesting to read.
The dots Russian authorities (and Belvis :( ) refuse to connect:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Груз-200-из-Украины-в-Россию/763463900366139 (http://www.facebook.com/pages/Груз-200-из-Украины-в-Россию/763463900366139)
http://censor.net.ua/resonance/301506/ih_ne_prosto_obmanuli_ih_unizili_pskovskiyi_aktivist_o_pogibshih_desantnikah (http://censor.net.ua/resonance/301506/ih_ne_prosto_obmanuli_ih_unizili_pskovskiyi_aktivist_o_pogibshih_desantnikah)
http://censor.net.ua/resonance/301105/rossiyiskih_soldat_prosto_brosili_poluchat_dengi_za_schet_jizni_ukraintsev_osnovatel_gruppy_gruz200 (http://censor.net.ua/resonance/301105/rossiyiskih_soldat_prosto_brosili_poluchat_dengi_za_schet_jizni_ukraintsev_osnovatel_gruppy_gruz200)
http://www.novayagazeta.ru/inquests/65127.html (http://www.novayagazeta.ru/inquests/65127.html)
http://issuu.com/novayagazeta/docs/novgaz-pdf__2014-095n/2?e=3174214/9188571 (http://issuu.com/novayagazeta/docs/novgaz-pdf__2014-095n/2?e=3174214/9188571)
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Да ну ужОс. Мисс Амено, я по-русски уже: я пишу об "озабоченности" США о 1) учениях в Астрахани 2) передвижении рос войск по территории России (Рост область и иже). Рос-тов-ская область (и Астрахань).
Так понятно?
:cluebat:
Sorry guys for Russian- I couldn't ANY MORE write same things in English.
I am not Stirlitz with his perfect English. ;D
Doll, you are refusing to understand if Russia would not have invaded Ukraine, USA (and other countries also) would not have been so "озабочены" about Russia pulling more and more troops to the border of Ukraine and testing long-range antiaircraft missiles less than 800km away from Ukrainian border.
Так понятно?
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Doll, you are refusing to understand if Russia would not have invaded Ukraine, USA (and other countries also) would not have been so "озабочены" about Russia pulling more and more troops to the border of Ukraine and testing long-range antiaircraft missiles less than 800km away from Ukrainian border.
Так понятно?
One more time- what does US have to do with it?
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Don't be ignorant. No invitation by any nation to invade another country gives anyone the right to invade a sovereign nation. A UN resolution must first be in place giving passage for legal intervention. This is what happened in Libya. This is why nations, including the US, bombed its government officials and forces to oblivion. That should have explained to you WHY the US was there. Not because *they want us there*, LMAO.
Since then, the very same militants - the ones we armed and assisted for the coup - bombed our embassy and killed our ambassador and marines. An event your president lied to you about. Soon after that, they chased us all out of town. So *they wanting us there* is an idiotic statement to make. But considering it came from you, it is par for the course.
Iran took over 52 hostages and held them for 444 straight days when they took over our Embassy. Since then, we've had no delegations in Tehran and certainly it doesn't mean *they want us there*.
Pakistanis are bombed by our drones inside their border without the approval of the Pakistani government, the UN, nor anyone. That doesn't mean *they want us there*.
Ask any Okinawans if *they want us there*.
http://news.yahoo.com/plan-move-highlights-us-problem-okinawa-073216414.html
Ask any indigenous Hawaiians if they want to continue to be 5-0 much less *want us there*. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/06/20/feds-native-hawaiian-recognition_n_5516823.html
Do you think the majority of Germans/Europe *want us there*?
http://www.the-american-interest.com/blog/2012/05/22/shock-poll-51-of-voters-want-us-troops-out-of-europe/
I could go on to show you how ignorant you really are, but that is a clear exercise in futility.
LMAO! Your pathetic attempt to disparage above only displayed your seething insecurity and deeply-seeded inferiority. A single language speaking person trying to insult a 4 language speaking person is downright laughable, if not outright stupid.
You see what I mean? Bashar Asaad just recently won a landslide presidential election with an 88.7% majority. For you to be shooting from the hip to make a very stupid remark about *millions of Syrians* begging us for assistance is just classically moronic.
Who are these *millions of Syrians*, I dare ask? LOL. Anyone you know? Masood and his goat? Maybe Abdullah and his cousins? What in the world is wrong with you?
...and this has got to do with your claim about nations *wanting us to be there* exactly how?
Do you even have an idea how many times the US had gassed not only nations but even its own citizens? I bet you didn't, did you? Did we ever give a fock whatever other countries felt about our arrogance in this regard? Fcok no..
Dude...fool...silent...speak...NO DOUBT.
Did your ancestors want the USA to liberate the Philippine Islands from Japan, or did they prefer to be "comforters" to Japanese soldiers? Yes or No.
Let me simplify things for you since you leave NO DOUBT as to your ability to comprehend simple things. Apparently most Ukrainians feel about the same about Russians, as the Philippines felt about the Japanese during WWII.
You can discount what I write all you want to; but when you discount and argue with Stirlitz and other Ukrainians who are telling you how wrong you are, then it's you who his proving his own ignorance.
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Did your ancestors want the USA to liberate the Philippine Islands from Japan, or did they prefer to be "comforters" to Japanese soldiers? Yes or No.
Let me simplify things for you since you leave NO DOUBT as to your ability to comprehend simple things. Apparently most Ukrainians feel about the same about Russians, as the Philippines felt about the Japanese during WWII.
You can discount what I write all you want to; but when you discount and argue with Stirlitz and other Ukrainians who are telling you how wrong you are, then it's you who his proving his own ignorance.
LMAO! You really do leave no doubt you're a first rate ignoramus.
"The liberation of the Philippines was costly. In the Philippines alone, the Americans lost 60,628 men and the Japanese an estimated 300,000. Filipino casualties are estimated at over a million and, sadly, these occurred mainly in the last months of the war when the final outcome had long been decided in any event.
The most serious long term consequence of World War II on the Philippines was to aggravate and embitter its internal social divisions. Prior to his departure for exile in the United States, President Quezon had advised Dr. Jose Laurel to stay behind and cooperate in the civil administration of the Japanese occupation. Whether it was good advice or not, President Quezon had hoped that with the cooperation of Filipinos, the occupation might be less severe. Following Laurel's morally ambiguous example, the Philippine elite, with regrettably few exceptions, collaborated extensively with the Japanese in their harsh exploitation of the country. President Laurel and his wartime government was despised.
On the contrary, the great majority of the Philippine people mounted a remarkably effective resistance to the Japanese occupation. Investigations after the war showed that 260,000 Filipinos had been actively engaged in guerrilla organizations and an even larger number operated covertly in the anti-Japanese underground. By the end of the war, the Japanese had effective control in only twelve of the country's forty-eight provinces.
The largest guerrilla organization was the Hukbalahap (People's Anti-Japanese Army) led by Luis Taruc. He had armed some 30,000 guerrillas who controlled most of Luzon.
By war's end, the members of the resistance firmly believed that the widespread collaboration and corruption of the well-to-do had discredited the ruling elite and that they had thereby forfeited any moral authority to govern.
The United States intended to restore the pre-war Commonwealth government. Luis Taruc and the Huks had well known socialist sympathies and communist associations. Despite their political affiliations, the Huks fully expected the American forces to treat them as allies and war heroes in recognition of their resistance and contribution to the war effort. Instead, the U.S. Army military police set out to disarm them as dangerous insurgents. MacArthur had Taruc arrested and jailed...."
The US aspirations and incursion in the island of the Philippines have very little to do in wanting to liberate it. It had largely to do with their military strategic movement to land a supply and transit base close enough to Japan. The US left upwards of 80,000 Filipinos and roughly 20,000 US soldiers as sacrificial pawns to die because of its own wartime strategy and had instead concentrated its military against Germany despite the fact it was the Japanese empire that bombed Pearl Harbor.
Even to the war's bitter end, the US's ambition was completely political & control of the region. The 20th century form of colonialism. What the Filipinos got from the US after the war was Ferdinand Marcos With total disregard to that island's inhabitants.
See what I mean that should've just stayed silent?
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The Philippines would be better off with Russian masters rather than Japanese, Spanish, American or Filipino masters. Don't be such a dummy.
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LMAO! You really do leave no doubt you're a first rate ignoramus.
This, from the guy who claims to know more about the conflict in Ukraine than Ukrainians living there or with family members from there.
:ROFL:
As far as your response to the USA saving your Islands during WWII; I am not at all surprised. People who cannot stand on their own two feet and need a Savior often later bite the hand that fed them, or in this case saved their life. What is really fascinating is that you apparently chose the USA to be your permanent home, rather than the PI. :rolleyes:
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One more time- what does US have to do with it?
That's pretty easy to answer. America has traditionally supported emerging democracies and supported democracies that are threatened by bullies such as Hitler and Putin (dickhead).
It is true that with all the other conflicts America is involved in, the average American knew little about Ukraine and was not interested in becoming involved in another conflict. What you should realize is that over the past few months, the mainstream media has been educating the American public about Ukraine, it's culture, and the threats it faces from Putin. The invasion and annexation of Crimea does not sit well with the American public. Nor does the infiltration of Russian troops and mercenaries to fight Ukrainians on their land.
America joined the allies in WWII to fight Hitler and stop his takeover of other countries. Now today, it seems that the allies need to do the same thing to Putin to stop his insane aggression of his neighbors. One thing became very clear to me recently. The Kremlin propaganda toward the West is only used to keep the Russian public misinformed to a threat that does not exist. Neither the US or Europe has every had a desire to invade Russian and there is no reason to suspect they ever will. The brainwashing of the Russian public is to justify the expenditures for a strong military. No one gives a shit about invading Russia and probably never will. It is a Ruse.
Here is a great example of the kind of propaganda that Russia feeds it's citizens. It was from a pamphlet available at the entrance to the underground submarine base at Balaclava. I read it with my own eyes, actually had it in my hands and not something from a third party. From one of my trip reports...
Ref: Post #88 http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=15123.msg314422#msg314422
I had assumed that the facility was a WWII relic, but it is not. It was built after WWII and is a 'Cold War' relic that has been restored into a museum. There is an English pamphlet available at the cashier window available for 13 grivna.
It is interesting that the pamphlet contains the propaganda from the cold war era that justified the military expenditures based upon the aggressive nature of the U.S. and NATO.
Some of the quotes from the propaganda suggests that the US planned to:
1. drop 300 atomic bombs onto 70 large Soviet cities and 29,000 ordinary bombs onto 100 towns
2. invade the Soviet Union with the help of 250 divisions
3. take over the territory of the USSR and it's allies.
4. to occupy the territory
It escapes me how vulnerable people are to propaganda (from any source). No wonder someone coined the phrase "sheeple" LOL
Doll, since you are so enamoured with Russia I am wondering why you don't leave the land of opportunity in the USA and get your husband to move back to Russia where you will no doubt be happier under Putin?
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One more time- what does US have to do with it?
Ukraine appealed to Western countries including USA for help.
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That's pretty easy to answer. America has traditionally supported emerging democracies and supported democracies that are threatened by bullies such as Hitler and Putin (dickhead).
It is true that with all the other conflicts America is involved in, the average American knew little about Ukraine and was not interested in becoming involved in another conflict. What you should realize is that over the past few months, the mainstream media has been educating the American public about Ukraine, it's culture, and the threats it faces from Putin. The invasion and annexation of Crimea does not sit well with the American public. Nor does the infiltration of Russian troops and mercenaries to fight Ukrainians on their land.
America joined the allies in WWII to fight Hitler and stop his takeover of other countries. Now today, it seems that the allies need to do the same thing to Putin to stop his insane aggression of his neighbors. One thing became very clear to me recently. The Kremlin propaganda toward the West is only used to keep the Russian public misinformed to a threat that does not exist. Neither the US or Europe has every had a desire to invade Russian and there is no reason to suspect they ever will. The brainwashing of the Russian public is to justify the expenditures for a strong military. No one gives a shit about invading Russia and probably never will. It is a Ruse.
Of course I know that mass media is educating Americans :D
Doll, since you are so enamoured with Russia I am wondering why you don't leave the land of opportunity in the USA and get your husband to move back to Russia where you will no doubt be happier under Putin?
Forgot to ask you.
BTW, I am the citizen of "Land of Opportunities". Dare to keep telling me to leave the country?
My husband is born American. Do you want him to go to?
We will- when your name is Obama >:D
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Of course I know that mass media is education Americans :D Forgot to ask you.
BTW, I am the citizen of "Lans of Opportunities". Dare to keep telling me to leave the country?
My husband is born American. Do you want him to go to?
We will- when your name is Obama >:D
I did not tell you to leave the country. I asked why you stay here when you are so unhappy and critical of the USA?
I would expect that you could convice your husband how much better Russia is than the USA. ;D
You got your citizenship to the USA, or still holding a green card?
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BTW, I am the citizen of "Lans of Opportunities". Dare to keep telling me to leave the country?
My husband is born American. Do you want him to go to?
We will- when your name is Obama >:D
Doll, it's just a lame attempt to shut down discussion because some people don't like or can't handle differing opinions.
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I did not tell you to leave the country. I asked why you stay here when you are so unhappy and critical of the USA?
I would expect that you could convice your husband how much better Russia is than the USA. ;D
You got your citizenship to the USA, or still holding a green card?
I can teach reading comprehension.
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Doll, it's just a lame attempt to shut down discussion because some people don't like or can't handle differing opinions.
What attempt? To tell me to pack up and go , to remind Blues that he was not born here?
It is very typical example of American "freedom" and tolerancy.
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What attempt? To tell me to pack up and go , to remind Blues that he was not born here?
It is very typical example of American "freedom" and tolerancy.
And what would be an example of Russian "freedom" and "tolerance" for those in Russia who publicly express views against the official Russian policies?
Care to tell us that? :popcorn:
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And what would be example of Russian "freedom" and "tolerance" for those in Russia who publicly express views against the official Russian policies?
Care to tell us that? :popcorn:
I'm not sure why you are trying to make light of the hypocrisy we see in the states by trying to compare it to Russia. The US is supposedly the "Land of the Free".
Russia has nothing to do with that. Plenty can see through your deflection.
(http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/american-pride-eagle-land-of-the-free.jpg)
We are free to leave the US but now it requires a substantial fee in order to process the paperwork to renounce citizenship (increase of over 400%) plus you need to prove you are up to date on taxes otherwise you stay an American. By the way, that fee continues to get bigger and bigger. How is that for freedom?
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And what would be an example of Russian "freedom" and "tolerance" for those in Russia who publicly express views against the official Russian policies?
Care to tell us that? :popcorn:
You can express your opinion.
If you could read Russian you would find tons of "opinions".
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I'm not sure why you are trying to make light of the hypocrisy we see in the states by trying to compare it to Russia. The US is supposedly the "Land of the Free".
Russia has nothing to do with that.
(http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/american-pride-eagle-land-of-the-free.jpg)
There is no hypocrisy at all, and Americans are just human beings after all; not the perfect people you think we should be. If anything our willingness to accept too many who don't embrace our values, at this point in time, has made us weak. Would any country in the World come to our aid if we were suddenly invaded? Or would the likes of "GQ" and "Doll" and perhaps you as well be clapping and cheering for our demise?
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You can express your opinion.
If you could read Russian you would find tons of "opinions".
You're not very good at telling the whole truth, now are you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia
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No, Doll, the above comment and several previous ones are not about "freedom" or "tolerance",
they are about how simple-minded people imagine practical implementation of the famous First Amendment to American Constitution. [I would like to note here that I deeply respect and admire this Amendment.]
That is, exactly till the expressed views and opinions are one and the same as the simple-minded people own.
But woe to anybody who dares to think and (O horror!) speak up differently. No amount of facts will save this person. On the contrary, the more facts are demonstrated to prove the contrary point of view, the more anger is expressed by the simple-minded people...
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There is no hypocrisy at all, and Americans are just human beings after all; not the perfect people you think we should be. If anything our willingness to accept too many who don't embrace our values, at this point in time, has made us weak.
Correction, I don't believe any people are perfect no matter how much the US tries to portray that perfect image of what a country should be.
That is the problem and why people are calling out the hypocrisy.
It's people like you who try and deflect the issues that makes this country weak. Instead of pointing them out and saying "that isn't right and more people should know about it."
Would any country in the World come to our aid if we were suddenly invaded?
Great question and it says a lot that you even need to ask that question. You mean treating our supposed friends as enemies by spying on them may, in fact, keep them from coming to our aid if needed?
Could you possibly say it's the US fault for damaging relations or are you going to try and deflect by bringing up Russia?
Or would the likes of "GQ" and "Doll" and perhaps you as well be clapping and cheering for our demise?
Weak stretch of the imagination you have there.
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Neither the US or Europe has every had a desire to invade Russian and there is no reason to suspect they ever will. The brainwashing of the Russian public is to justify the expenditures for a strong military.
This is not about an invasion of Russia. They have nukes so nobody is invading them. If the USA had it's way Russia would be greatly weakened, that way we could continue to intervene all around the world relatively unopposed. Trying to foment and turn Ukraine against Russia is just another step in that direction. nobody is invading Russia but they still need a strong military or they risk becoming another slave state in a unipolar world.
Fathertime!
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No, Doll, the above comment and several previous ones are not about "freedom" or "tolerance",
they are about how simple-minded people imagine practical implementation of the famous First Amendment to American Constitution. [I would like to note here that I deeply respect and admire this Amendment.]
That is, exactly till the expressed views and opinions are one and the same as the simple-minded people own.
But woe to anybody who dares to think and (O horror!) speak up differently. No amount of facts will save this person. On the contrary, the more facts are demonstrated to prove the contrary point of view, the more anger is expressed by the simple-minded people...
This is where you are failing to see the point which "Calmissile" was making. If the USA was such a bad place as Doll is suggesting, then why doesn't she want to move back to Russia? People always vote with their feet in the end, and the number of Russians leaving Russia and coming to the West is enormous compared to the number of Americans or other Westerners permanently moving to Russia.
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This is not about an invasion of Russia. They have nukes so nobody is invading them. If the USA had it's way Russia would be greatly weakened, that way we could continue to intervene all around the world relatively unopposed. Trying to foment and turn Ukraine against Russia is just another step in that direction. nobody is invading Russia but they still need a strong military or they risk becoming another slave state in a unipolar world.
Fathertime!
That's an interesting piece of terminology there. Care to share where you picked it up?
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This is where you are failing to see the point which "Calmissile" was making. If the USA was such a bad place as Doll is suggesting, then why doesn't she want to move back to Russia? People always vote with their feet in the end, and the number of Russians leaving Russia and coming to the West is enormous compared to the number of Americans or other Westerners permanently moving to Russia.
Where did Doll say the US was a bad place to live? If you or Cal can't produce a post showing she said that, it's merely a straw man argument trying to shut her up. That would be the point YOU are missing.
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Where did Doll say the US was a bad place to live? If you or Cal can't produce a post showing she said that, it's merely a straw man argument trying to shut her up. That would be the point YOU are missing.
They will not find this link because I"ve never said that.
I will NEVER shut up >:D
Over all these years I have been "sent back to Russia" (by forum members) many times.
Hahaha
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treating our supposed friends as enemies by spying on them may, in fact, keep them from coming to our aid if needed?
Friendly countries spying on each other happens. Smart people know this. Average people go into shock when discovering things and get upset since nobody in their government calls them to let them know what their country is doing. Germany listens in our phone calls and spies on friends too. Not the end of the world.
http://www.newsweek.com/germany-spied-turkey-eavesdropped-top-us-diplomats-media-reports-say-265213
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What is really fascinating is that you apparently chose the USA to be your permanent home, rather than the PI. :rolleyes:
(http://www.lovethispic.com/uploaded_images/33398-The-Truth-Hurts.gif)
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Friendly countries spying on each other happens. Smart people know this. Average people go into shock when discovering things and get upset since nobody in their government calls them to let them know what their country is doing. Germany listens in our phone calls and spies on friends too. Not the end of the world.
http://www.newsweek.com/germany-spied-turkey-eavesdropped-top-us-diplomats-media-reports-say-265213 (http://www.newsweek.com/germany-spied-turkey-eavesdropped-top-us-diplomats-media-reports-say-265213)
Yeah, history tends to show the truth. Smart people know this. Average people tend to turn a blind eye to pass transgressions while eating up the typical media propaganda.
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And what would be an example of Russian "freedom" and "tolerance" for those in Russia who publicly express views against the official Russian policies?
Care to tell us that? :popcorn:
(http://www.culturestarved.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/friday-damn.jpg)
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I'm not sure why you are trying to make light of the hypocrisy we see in the states by trying to compare it to Russia. The US is supposedly the "Land of the Free".
Russia has nothing to do with that. Plenty can see through your deflection.
(http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/american-pride-eagle-land-of-the-free.jpg)
We are free to leave the US but now it requires a substantial fee in order to process the paperwork to renounce citizenship (increase of over 400%) plus you need to prove you are up to date on taxes otherwise you stay an American. By the way, that fee continues to get bigger and bigger. How is that for freedom?
(http://www.cheatcc.com/imagesfeatures/top10excuses.jpg)
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You're not very good at telling the whole truth, now are you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia
This is American lie. No journalist kill in Russia. Putin love everyone.
(http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000UY6UwygHCQQ/s/500/500/Politkovskaya-JIN-01.jpg)
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This, from the guy who claims to know more about the conflict in Ukraine than Ukrainians living there or with family members from there.
:ROFL:
As far as your response to the USA saving your Islands during WWII; I am not at all surprised. People who cannot stand on their own two feet and need a Savior often later bite the hand that fed them, or in this case saved their life. What is really fascinating is that you apparently chose the USA to be your permanent home, rather than the PI. :rolleyes:
That's it?!? I once again easily schooled your limited grasp of what you thought you knew. LOL! What dufus! I knew you were much too limited, I just didn't realize it was this empty.
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I will NEVER shut up
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titushky
tell us how Obama is a monkey
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That's it?!? I once again easily schooled your limited grasp of what you thought you knew. LOL! What dufus! I knew you were much too limited, I just didn't realize it was this empty.
I feel your pain. You're one of those rare individuals who can take simple truths and turn them into complex lies. Occam's Razor must give you a migraine.
Take the downing of MH-17 for example; the Russian terrorists operating in Ukraine took immediate credit for downing this aircraft on social media, and only took down their posts once they realized that it was a civilian aircraft and not a military one.
Then there's the overwhelming evidence, as presented by Stirlitz who lives in Odessa and speaks fluent Russian, that Russian language was never in any real way ever threatened in Ukraine. We could have hundreds of thousands or even millions of Stirlitz's come on this forum, and you would still find a way to deny reality. It's like that for confused zombies like you, isn't it?
And now there's the fact that your hero's, the pro-Russian separatists, have stooped to the level of ISIS and committed the brutality of beheading a Ukrainian prisoner. You should be so proud of the side you are cheering on.
From the article linked above:
The parade
(LB.ua editor’s note: Oleh did not want to talk about the POWs’ parade in Donetsk. This is probably the hardest thing for him to recall. But he agreed to describe the events in brief).
This was terrible. Three of us, including myself, were taken to a parade on [August] 24. We were told: “Isn’t it your holiday? So we’re taking you to a parade.”
They lined us up behind the building, along with other prisoners. They raised their flags, with Cossacks, Vostok, Oplot battalions all present.
The video you saw on the Internet is bullshit. They didn’t show the most important thing there. They didn’t show that a man was beheaded. He was being forced to get down on his knees during the parade preparations. He refused. He was beheaded. Right in front of everyone. I don’t know who he was. And I don’t know who the executioner was, as he was wearing a mask. But after that, we all kneeled.
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I Take the downing of MH-17 for example; the Russian terrorists operating in Ukraine took immediate credit for downing this aircraft on social media, and only took down their posts once they realizes that it was a civilian aircraft and not a military one.
When and how?
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http://web.archive.org/web/20140717152222/http://vk.com/strelkov_info (http://web.archive.org/web/20140717152222/http://vk.com/strelkov_info)
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http://web.archive.org/web/20140717152222/http://vk.com/strelkov_info (http://web.archive.org/web/20140717152222/http://vk.com/strelkov_info)
Listen, since when FB or VK has become the evidence?
Or better- youtube :D
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Listen, since when FB or VK has become the evidence?
Or better- youtube :D
Since DNR and LNR decided to use it as their communication with masses solution.
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missAmeno is correct.
Those are his official pages, and an official youtube account, where his minions posted each "victory" of the terrorists. He claimed the shot down a plane.
The SBU released conversations captured between terrorists when they went to the site of the crash, looking for the pilot. They then discovered bodies of women and children, and started discussing how to disown their action. I haven't linked those because they are from the SBU, so of course you won't believe them.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbyZYgSXdyw&list=UURxyjhmvBewJIRb2yku5EuQ
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Since DNR and LNR decided to use it as their communication with masses solution.
Any social net account can be faked very easily.
Anybody can have any number of accounts there, post ANYTHING and use anybody's pictures.
If VK or any funny place could be "evidence" then why did they send hundrends of experts there?
Who are, by the way, are keeping their mouths shut.
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Except that, it was the same account as had been used by the terrorists in the past. It was verified as authentic by experts, after its genuineness was questioned. And, the posts, but not the account, disappeared once it was realized that a civilian aircraft had been downed.
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Except that, it was the same account as had been used by the terrorists in the past. It was verified as authentic by experts, after its genuineness was questioned. And, the posts, but not the account, disappeared once it was realized that a civilian aircraft had been downed.
Imagine that. The smoke disappears but the gun is still sitting there.
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Pleeeeeeeaseeeeee! Guys, don't be kids!
Youtube fakeds video had been made BEFORE it happened.
Any account can be hacked.
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OMG!
While something that important happening, the experienced officer is posting in VK?
Do you really believe it?
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No, that is incorrect, Doll. The youtube video was posted 6 hours after the crash. youtube timestamps were always a day before they are posted.
http://www.metabunk.org/threads/debunked-mh17-video-timestamped-before-the-crash-and-other-timeline-issues.3988/ (http://www.metabunk.org/threads/debunked-mh17-video-timestamped-before-the-crash-and-other-timeline-issues.3988/)
http://gist.github.com/klaufir/d1e694c064322a7fbc15 (http://gist.github.com/klaufir/d1e694c064322a7fbc15)
Since the conspiracy theories started spouting on this issue, youtube changed its date stamp, and it is now date stamped the same day as posted. However, on the other forum, the poster who explained this tested the date stamp theory. He uploaded a video, and linked it immediately after uploading. His video was also date stamped 24 hours before uploading.
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OMG!
While something that important happening, the experienced officer is posting in VK?
Do you really believe it?
I doubt it was Strelkov personally posting. The accounts are maintained by other terrorists who reported to him.
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Guns are starting to come into Ukraine and I couldn't be more happy with the news.
Just for Doll and her fellow minions
http://rt.com/news/187688-nato-weapons-supply-ukraine/
Russia threatens to nuke Ukraine (again)
http://un.ua/eng/article/532670.html
I will say that President Obama has failed to respond to the challenge or even supply Ukraine (what a surprise.)
http://thehill.com/policy/defense/217613-pressure-grows-for-obama-to-arm-ukraine
From the Top Democrats in Congress
Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin (D-Mich.), who visited Ukraine earlier this month, said Poroshenko’s visit would be a “good opportunity” for Obama to change his long-held position that there is no military solution to the conflict between Kiev and Moscow.
“I hope that our president will make some kind of supportive announcement relative to training and equipping at that time,” said Levin. The senator has been pushing for weeks to arm Ukraine.
“The decision, ultimately, is going to be made the president, in any event,” he told The Hill.
Rep. Adam Smith (Wash.), the top Democrat on the House Armed Services Committee, said the U.S. should offer equipment to help that country’s ground forces, including as Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles.
Sen. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.), who also visited Ukraine during the five-week August recess, said administration officials are “not only rethinking, they have rethought their policy,” and are opening the door to more military help.
And Nelson said that if Obama didn’t act, Congress would have to step up. He suggested lawmakers might offer an “additional appropriation” to aid Ukraine.
“Ukraine still needs to be front and center,” Nelson said.
But it seems the Rand Paul wing of the White House is prevailing on Doll's monkey.
spokeswoman Caitlin Hayden, in a statement to The Hill.
“We are proud to have already committed nearly $70 million [whoppty do], including items like body armor, communications equipment, meals ready-to-eat, and medical supplies,[no medevac helicopters such as the surplus Vietnam era Hueys] ” she added. “This assistance has and will help [maybe] the Ukrainians sustain operations by their security forces and border guards to respond to aggression.”
The US has billions of stockpiled weapons in places like the Sierra Army Depot and Davis Monthan Air Force Base, it can for the cost of freight send over to Ukraine RIGHT NOW.
But critics say economic sanctions against the Kremlin has been largely ineffective and that more must be done to help Ukraine’s military.
And those critics are correct.
And with the Rebels breaking the truce, there is NO REASON to delay the EU association agreement:
http://www.dw.de/ukraine-forces-and-rebels-swap-blame-as-clashes-threaten-ceasefire/a-17921252
Deputy Foreign Minister Danylo Lubkivsky submitted his resignation, saying: "(The delay) sends the wrong signal - to the aggressor, to our allies and, above all, to Ukrainian citizens."
Unless of course the Europeans are cowards
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I doubt it was Strelkov personally posting. The accounts are maintained by other terrorists who reported to him.
Sure, they all have an access to his personal profile (and password).
Ok, guys, you can post your amusing stories here- I am out.
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Doll, read the site. It was established as a "rah rah" and inspiration for the terrorists.
Poroshenko has a webpage on the president of Ukraine's official site. Do you believe he maintains it personally?
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Doll, read the site. It was established as a "rah rah" and inspiration for the terrorists.
Poroshenko has a webpage on the president of Ukraine's official site. Do you believe he maintains it personally?
You would love it Doll.
http://vk.com/strelkov_info
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Pleeeeeeeaseeeeee! Guys, don't be kids!
Youtube fakeds video had been made BEFORE it happened.
Any account can be hacked.
LMAO
Talking about hacking, how's this for hacking?
http://en.censor.net.ua/news/302511/they_cut_mans_head_off_because_he_refused_to_fell_to_his_knees_after_that_we_all_kneeled_prisoners_story
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Guns are starting to come into Ukraine and I couldn't be more happy with the news.
Unless of course the Europeans are cowards
I though you were AGAINST war?
Guess that you will be cheering for every victim that falls in Ukraine, including those among your family.
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Open Letter to President Poroshenko
September 7, 2014
“Dear Petro Oleksiyovych,
Good evening. Pardon me for my approach. It’s not as if I don’t know the rules of Ukrainian grammar on how to address a person, but I simply wish to speak with you informally.
Where I am now, a battle has only recently ceased. The enemy bombarded our position intensively, here in the village of Pisky, near Donetsk. They fired everything imaginable. Our battalion “OUN” has been defending the front lines from this location for the past three weeks.
One day here is the same as the next. The shelling regularly begins at about 17:00 hours and continues until 24:00 hours. The hit us with artillery, mortars, and all manner of small arms fire. At other times of the day we are stalked by snipers and subjected to random volleys of ordnance such as mortars. But let’s think nothing of it, Petro Oleksiyovych. We are holding our own. That’s war. Slowly we are growing accustomed to it. Life goes on. We realize that this war will be a long war.
Now, about the ceasefire, I must say that from what I can tell, the other side knows nothing about it. That’s the way they are. When a bombardment ends the silence is over-whelming. It is a bitter and harsh silence, silence like a scalpel. If you listen closely, it’s as if God himself is tearing the world as we know it in half, separating his children from the children of the devil, after having separated their souls from their bodies. The devil must be with those people; they have no soul.
Our soldiers find rest in trenches. “Dolyna” stores his cigarettes in his gloves; “Yurist” crawls into the fox hole in order to catch a few hours of sleep, cradling his rifle the way he used to embrace his wife. “Skyba” has to change his sweat-soaked shirt after the battle, while “Bilyi” appears to be praying, from what I can tell.
We won’t disturb them. They are listening to the silence, and every one of them, other than the sentinels, are hoping to fall asleep. Petro Oleksiyovych, you’d never believe how good it is to fall asleep in a slit trench after surviving a battle. This earth is our land, reassuring, and warm, and soft, just like one remembers of baba’s comforters back in the village life of our childhood.
This is our homeland. We are one with it. When we are in these trenches we could stay underground forever if events turn out that way. Truth be told, however, each of us would appreciate another chance to emerge from them, if only for one more time. Today our combatants did everything possible within their abilities, and they more than earned this rest under the protection of our native land. They have survived, and have defended the front lines. They are true heroes.
Petro Oleksiyovych, you might wonder why I am writing to you for a second time, neglecting other more important things, but my men are the ones who really do the work. After our video address to you a week ago, when we asked our government to supply us with weapons, my men told me, ‘write to him. Write to him on behalf of all of us. He is our President. He will listen to you and send assistance.’ I asked them, ‘why do you suppose Petro Oleskiyovych will listen to me? He does not know me; we are not acquaintances.’
‘But you know him.’
‘OK. I know him, in the same way we all know the leader of our country. He is our President.’
‘Is it possible that the leader of the country, whether the President or some other government functionary, does not know who the country’s poets are? If a government representative does not know our poets, then we don’t need any foreign Khuilo, we have enough of our own. (This term, Khuilo, is the one they themselves used, so I ask that you forgive them for it; it really is the most appropriate description, given the circumstances.)
‘How many poets does the country have?’
‘Two, maybe three hundred.’
‘There you have it,’ they say, ‘it takes a thousand, or maybe several thousand other activists, political or otherwise, to equal one poet. Those in government simply must know their country’s poets.’
Further, activists come and go, but a poet is remembered in life and in death, always remaining with his nation. In a word, my men were very convincing.
I can honestly say, Petro Oleksiyovych, that if possible, I would be a poet for the rest of my life. Now, however, because of this war, everything is turning out differently.
The options are very clear: one is either born a man, or not born at all. What I mean is that if you are born a real man, then in the event that a war comes to your country, you will be ready and willing to defend her or to die for her, as the case may be. You will not wait for someone to summon you, or demand terms and conditions, a verbal or written contract.
We are the same age, you and I, Petro Oleksiyovych. We are both 49 years old. Now, at our age, who could possibly tell us how we ought to defend our homeland? For your part, you are defending Ukraine as best you can, and we are grateful. As for me, simply put, I approached the active forces, but was turned away. I came to the volunteer battalion, Azov, and they accepted me.
Then the occasion presented itself for the establishment of one more battalion. Imagine that! We were able to send to the battlefield an additional five hundred volunteer combatants. It would have been a shame to let the opportunity pass. A commanding officer was easily found in the person of Mykola Kokhanivskyi, an incredible man.
We approached (Valerii) Heletyi (Minister of Defence) and he said ‘no’; then we went to (Arsen) Avakov (Minister of Internal Affairs), and he likewise said ‘no’. I have personally known some other ministers for quite a long time, including Serhii Kvit and Zhenia, I mean Yevhen Nischuk. Unfortunately, neither the Minister of Culture nor the Minister of Education had the authority to grant official status to our formation as a volunteer battalion, or to put weapons in our hands. And the ministers you have for armed forces are rather strange boys.
But do I, Borys Humeniuk, really need someone’s blessing or permission? So we gathered together ordinary hunting rifles and proceeded east. Very quickly we came to an understanding with the army stationed there, and were given our own section of the front lines. The rest is predictable: one battle nets us enemy weapons we can use; there are more “trophies” from the next battle; our spoils of war increase with the third battle.
When these guys flee the battlefield, they leave all their heavy equipment behind. Not only the machine guns, and the RPGs, and the boxes of ammunition but also their wounded and their dead. We provide medical care to their wounded, and return their dead to the earth, but their machine guns and grenade launchers become our armaments. Our battalion constantly experiences a dearth of rifles, so when we find some, we definitely keep them.
It is precisely the question of small arms, dear Petro Oleksiyovych, that is the reason for writing to you now, and the source of other difficulties. We depend on the Ukrainian nation, volunteers from all over the country, to provide us with food and clothing. In the meantime, it is the separatists, our enemies, who provide us with weapons once they are defeated. It is our hope that the Ukrainian government, the same government we are defending, will consider our needs and provide us with the weapons we so desperately need.
Dear Petro Oleksiyovych! We are not asking for salaries or for official recognition as combatants. Our request is for 300-400 automatic rifles.
I promise that you will be hearing a great deal about the exploits of our battalion, but this will be the last time we will bother you.
(A story is told about an old woman who had come to the Maidan, but was too poor to buy a flag, so she knit one from yellow and blue yarn. This same woman has now made the decision to mortgage her home, one can say her very life savings, in order to obtain a loan with which to make a donation to those at the front. My own efforts pale in comparison to what she has done. See the quality of people, Petro Oleksiyevych, who make up our nation! It is a great joy and honour to risk my life on the battlefield for person like her and a people like this.)
P.S. It has been over 20 years since my last book of poetry, but this war has inspired me to write once more. These are now words steeped in blood. Some friends have published these poems in a new book which will be launched at a book fair in Lviv. My brothers in arms have made it possible for me to travel there. I would like to take this opportunity to invite you to the Lviv Publishers’ Forum. All the best Ukrainian poets will be in one place. You will have lots to speak with them about.
Sincerely,
Borys Humeniuk, author
Deputy Commander, Battalion OUN
Euromadian (http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/09/13/open-letter-to-president-poroshenko-by-borys-humeniuk-author-and-deputy-commander-battalion-oun/)
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I feel your pain. You're one of those rare individuals who can take simple truths and turn them into complex lies. Occam's Razor must give you a migraine.
Take the downing of MH-17 for example; the Russian terrorists operating in Ukraine took immediate credit for downing this aircraft on social media, and only took down their posts once they realized that it was a civilian aircraft and not a military one.
Then there's the overwhelming evidence, as presented by Stirlitz who lives in Odessa and speaks fluent Russian, that Russian language was never in any real way ever threatened in Ukraine. We could have hundreds of thousands or even millions of Stirlitz's come on this forum, and you would still find a way to deny reality. It's like that for confused zombies like you, isn't it?
And now there's the fact that your hero's, the pro-Russian separatists, have stooped to the level of ISIS and committed the brutality of beheading a Ukrainian prisoner. You should be so proud of the side you are cheering on.
You're all over the board and subjects with hardly any significant rebuttal to offer when your every *guess* is challenged and corrected. A definite sign of someone shooting from the hip.
You *leave no doubt*. ;)
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Please send $$$$, we are not getting any of the funds that you received.
Sincerely,
Borys Humeniuk, author
Deputy Commander, Battalion OUN
Euromadian (http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/09/13/open-letter-to-president-poroshenko-by-borys-humeniuk-author-and-deputy-commander-battalion-oun/)
Summary.
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Summary.
Boy Shadow, as a political analyst you would starve to death. :ROFL:
I promise you that the Russian analysts, unofficially of course, will not agree with your statement.
However, this speaks volumes about you.
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Don't be ignorant. No invitation by any nation to invade another country gives anyone the right to invade a sovereign nation. A UN resolution must first be in place giving passage for legal intervention. This is what happened in Libya. This is why nations, including the US, bombed its government officials and forces to oblivion. That should have explained to you WHY the US was there. Not because *they want us there*, LMAO.
Did Putin get said UN resolution prior to invading Crimea? Yes or No.
Did Putin get that UN resolution prior to invading E. Ukraine? Yes or No.
You were saying something about "don't be ignorant"? Don't expect me to give you any lengthy rebuttals at all, when you cannot answer simple questions. It's painfully obvious that no matter how many time the Ukrainian speakers on this forum correct you, you come back with more inane and lengthy posts; which I would say are designed to detract people from simple truths. Either you are a paid blogger for the Kremlin, or you are the village idiot of this forum.
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Did Putin get said UN resolution prior to invading Crimea? Yes or No.
Did Putin get that UN resolution prior to invading E. Ukraine? Yes or No.
You were saying something about "don't be ignorant"? Don't expect me to give you any lengthy rebuttals at all, when you cannot answer simple questions. It's painfully obvious that no matter how many time the Ukrainian speakers on this forum correct you, you come back with more inane and lengthy posts; which I would say are designed to detract people from simple truths. Either you are a paid blogger for the Kremlin, or you are the village idiot of this forum.
Holy Smokes! Mr. No Doubt strikes again, Batman!
I'll tell you what I'm going to do, I would let you mull over what self-determination means and how it applies to ANY autonomous state. Show me exactly how much YOU know.
"..On 26 February 2014, following the 2014 Ukrainian revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution), thousands of pro-Russian and pro-Ukraine protesters clashed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_crisis) in front of the parliament building in Simferopol. The pretext of the clash was the abolition, on 23 February 2014, of the law on languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukraine) of minorities, including Russian.This decision, that would make Ukrainian the sole state language, has not been upheld by interim Ukraine president Turchynov.
The demonstrations followed the ousting of Ukraine President Viktor Yanukovych (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych) on 22 February 2014, and a push by pro-Russian protesters for Crimea to secede from Ukraine and seek assistance from Russia..."
How's that for a lengthy post?
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Holy Smokes! Mr. No Doubt strikes again, Batman!
I'll tell you what I'm going to do, I would let you mull over what self-determination means and how it applies to ANY autonomous state. Show me exactly how much YOU know.
"..On 26 February 2014, following the 2014 Ukrainian revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution), thousands of pro-Russian and pro-Ukraine protesters clashed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_crisis) in front of the parliament building in Simferopol. The pretext of the clash was the abolition, on 23 February 2014, of the law on languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukraine) of minorities, including Russian.This decision, that would make Ukrainian the sole state language, has not been upheld by interim Ukraine president Turchynov.
The demonstrations followed the ousting of Ukraine President Viktor Yanukovych (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych) on 22 February 2014, and a push by pro-Russian protesters for Crimea to secede from Ukraine and seek assistance from Russia..."
How's that for a lengthy post?
That's nice. Now after that scuffle, did Putin go to the United Nations and get that resolution? Yes or No.
Ever hear of the Ukrainian Constitution? I have no doubt you have, and I have no doubt that the Ukrainian speakers on this forum have already previously pointed out to you that any push for a vote to secede from the rest of Ukraine, would require a vote by the entire country of Ukraine to be legitimate, per the Constitution of Ukraine, a sovereign nation, ie, not Russia.
Let that sink in for a little bit Einstein and get back to us. Or should every bully nation in the world be allowed to invade a smaller country, over a little scuffle, which was nothing but a pretext, as we now know Mr. KGB himself planned his little pretext and little invasion years ago.
Take your time villager, and tell us, should every larger country be allowed in the New Putinesque World Order, to invade a smaller nation, over a little scuffle?
:ROFL:
I'm leaning towards village idiot.
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That's nice. Now after that scuffle, did Putin go to the United Nations and get that resolution? Yes or No.
Ever hear of the Ukrainian Constitution? I have no doubt you have, and I have no doubt that the Ukrainian speakers on this forum have already previously pointed out to you that any push for a vote to secede from the rest of Ukraine, would require a vote by the entire country of Ukraine to be legitimate, per the Constitution of Ukraine, a sovereign nation, ie, not Russia.
Let that sink in for a little bit Einstein and get back to us. Or should every bully nation in the world be allowed to invade a smaller country, over a little scuffle, which was nothing but a pretext, as we now know Mr. KGB himself planned his little pretext and little invasion years ago.
Take your time villager, and tell us, should every larger country be allowed in the New Putinesque World Order, to invade a smaller nation, over a little scuffle?
:ROFL:
I'm leaning towards village idiot.
:rolleyes:
You're having a hard time with *self-determination*, I see...
Fool...silent...speak...no doubt.
You're the perfect example of the demise of the US education system. Worst, you're loose in the internet spraying your stupidity and leaving the rest of the world with *no doubt*.
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The poster child for atheism folks
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:rolleyes:
You're having a hard time with *self-determination*, I see...
Fool...silent...speak...no doubt.
You're the perfect example of the demise of the US education system. Worst, you're loose in the internet spraying your stupidity and leaving the rest of the world with *no doubt*.
So apparently your theory is that if only the US education system were better, I would agree that Putler had a right to invade and then annex Crimea on some trumped up allegations as the result of a little scuffle?
So where does that leave those people educated and raised in Ukraine, who clearly know the laws of their land much better than you? Are they also the product of an alleged inferior education, and if only they could read an RT version of events, they would see the light?
Your post reeks of an attitude of wanting to be superior. Hitler and his Nazi bunch thought that they were superior, and although it took a worldwide effort, they went down in flames and rubble after six years from the date they started WWII.
Self-determination? The Ukrainian people would love it if it were only that simple! The Ukrainian people would be going about their normal business, in peace without any conflict or blood-shed, if only the Dictator for life to their East would respect such an ideal!
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LOL. I am elated I was able to edukate you on some issues you thought you knew but were obviously clueless on. So much so you're embracing my Batman tough love and are carrying it as a reminder you are an ignorant duff...but thanks to my uncanny abilities and abundance of skill, I had once again shed a little wisdom on the proverbial MOB scum barrel.
Long live the MOB!!! May you carry the proud banner forever more!
LMAO
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The poster child for atheism folks
What does atheism have to do with anything? He can be atheism, christian, muslim, whatever...Are we supposed to say you are the poster child for Christianity as an attempt at an insult?
Fathertime!
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LOL. I am elated I was able to edukate you on some issues you thought you knew but were obviously clueless on. So much so you're embracing my Batman tough love and are carrying it as a reminder you are an ignorant duff...but thanks to my uncanny abilities and abundance of skill, I had once again shed a little wisdom on the proverbial MOB scum barrel.
Long live the MOB!!! May you carry the proud banner forever more!
LMAO
Keep the insults coming.
Meanwhile,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5pSYCCeuHI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkRtOSk1tps&app=desktop
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The heading may say RUSSIAN women discussion,but it covers all FSU women,including Ukraine..you know the country that Russia has invaded and killed citizens of ?
The fact that Putins popularity has soared in Russia since his invasion and theft of Crimea,and the continuing support of the majority of Russian people for his killing fields in Ukraine against their little brothers and sisters,says all we need to know about Russians.
They shouldn't be cheerleading too much though..magnify the comments of Stirlitz by many millions and that is what Russia has now created on it's border.
People who have lost everything,their families and homes,now have nothing to lose..just imagine the terrorist havoc they can now cause in Russia,let alone the ongoing war of attrition in Ukraine which may well last years..that is the legacy Putin will leave Russia .
Don't believe me ? Well imagine if the roles were reversed how the Russians would react....Ukrainians are not a people to mess with.
Afghanistan will seem like a walk in the park for Russian troops compared to what Ukraine will become..and remind us how that went for you ?
You say all Russians are rotten. Lets say Putin has a 80% popularity, the 20% who
disapprove are rotten as well?
Ukraine is infinitely easier to invade and control than Afghanistan.
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Read what i said...i said the MAJORITY of Russian people support Putin and his killing fields in Ukraine..they'll be the rotten ones....still a high percentage.
80% would be a majority yes ?
Where did i say ALL Russians are rotten ? Don't put words in my mouth.
Remind me how easily potential Ukrainian terrorists will be able to blend into the Russian cities and cause carnage...that will include the many Ukrainians already living in Russia.
Putin thought he could just stroll into eastern Ukraine with very little resistance,and all the residents would flock to join Russia..just like a couple of arrogant Russian posters on here thought,particularly a woman poster who was initially mocking the lack of action from Ukrainian troops but has now gone very quiet.
With many Russian troops now going home in body bags,as i said they would be..hasn't quite worked out like that has it ?
Then tell me how much easier Russia's war against Ukraine will be compared to Afghanistan...and how easy it will be to control Ukrainians.
Don't underestimate Ukrainian people..they're as hard as nails,smart,patriotic and proud.....and Russia has now made millions of enemies it didn't previously have....on it's very border and internally....smart move Putin. :rolleyes:
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The enemies were there, they just did not say it out loud.
Its better to have feelings out in the open as hidden behind a backstabbing smile.
As for atheism, it beats gullability every day.
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As for atheism, it beats gullability every day.
:applaud:
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As for atheism, it beats gullability every day.
Because it helps your ability to reason or your ability to spell?
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Because it helps your ability to reason or your ability to spell?
If one wanted to be picky it would appear your religious affiliation hasn't stopped you from writing sentence fragments.
Fathertime!
Fathertime!
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The enemies were there, they just did not say it out loud.
Its better to have feelings out in the open as hidden behind a backstabbing smile.
No they weren't.
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No they weren't.
Yes they were.
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Yes they were.
You're right FT. Punctuation, too.
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NATO drops the ball on Ukraine:
http://www.imrussia.org/en/russia-and-the-world/806-nato-fumbles-ukraine
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The tin foil hats in the Putin camp will have a hard time explaining this one:
http://online.wsj.com/articles/applause-but-no-arms-for-ukraine-1411081952
Applause, but No Arms, for Ukraine
Poroshenko gets a photo op, but little else, from Obama.
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Yes they were.
Really? So you know better how I felt about Russia and Russians prior invasion and after? You know better how my brothers, parents, grandmother, uncles, aunties, cousins, nieces, etc felt about Russia and Russians prior invasion and after? You know better how most Ukrainians felt about Russia and Russians prior invasion and after?
One more time, specially for you ... Russia has now made millions of enemies it didn't previously have!
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Umldt5rrwKw
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Why don't we give Ukraine US Army War surplus from the Sierra Army Depot to Ukraine? It costs the US $ 0.
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US Tanks have been sent to the Baltic states and Poland:
http://www.reuters.com/video/2014/10/15/us-sends-ironhorse-tanks-to-natos-nervou?videoId=346583242
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So typical of Team Obama doing everything short of what is necessary
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So typical of Team Obama doing everything short of what is necessary
So you would fight a fire with a bucket of kerosene.
Is that smart?
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You are defending Obama? You must really like golf.
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So typical of Team Obama doing everything short of what is necessary
I am not defending Obama's policies as I personally would like to see him do much more to assist Ukraine by giving them some of the weapons which they asked for; however keep in mind that Ukraine is not a member of NATO and so if weapons are being given to Ukraine, more than likely this is happening through back channels and will be denied officially. If the USA were to officially give weapons to Ukraine the logic of the Obama administration is apparently they feel it might start WWIII with Russia.
However sending tanks to the Baltic states and Poland is an incredibly important step to not only reassure our allies there but to also send a clear message to Putin that the USA as a senior member of NATO will defend any NATO member against Russian aggression.
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If the USA were to officially give weapons to Ukraine the logic of the Obama administration is apparently they feel it might start WWIII with Russia.
If indeed this a part of the logic they are basing their decisions on, it seems logical enough to me...from my viewpoint this conflict isn't worth WWIII......It is also possible that they feel sending weapons would only escalate and widen the conflict.
Fathertime!
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If indeed this a part of the logic they are basing their decisions on, it seems logical enough to me...from my viewpoint this conflict isn't worth WWIII......It is also possible that they feel sending weapons would only escalate and widen the conflict.
Fathertime!
I believe that at the very least Ukraine needs and should get defensive weapons including better tanks to make sure that Putler does not get his land bridge to Crimea. Keep the Russian terrorists stopped and the conflict "frozen" where it's at. Russia started this war by first invading and annexing Crimea and then by invading Eastern Ukraine; all orchestrated by their intelligence agency the FSB.
The world has changed since the days of the Soviet Union when guys like Putin could get away with telling whoppers to his population. Now with the advent of the internet some of his worst enemies are the very Russian soldiers who he sent into Ukraine (allegedly they got lost, or they are on some sort of vacation) who use social media to brag about their exploits as he tries to deny their very presence.
So no, it's not going to widen the conflict if Ukraine gets all of the weapons they need to defend their lands, it's going to contain it. Over time the sanctions will bring Russia to the bargaining table. Until then Ukraine should be given any and all weapons they need.
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I agree, but Putin is mad. He is paranoid about NATO and especially the US. He sees Ukraine's turn towards the West as a 'taking' of HIS Soviet Union. Russian media is constantly saying the USA is a major threat. Propaganda- for what insane purpose?
What if Yanukovych told him it is all a US plot? Yes, I can picture him doing that and fueling his paranoia. Putin will not entertain the idea that Kievan Rus is rejecting him, through their own thinking.
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So no, it's not going to widen the conflict if Ukraine gets all of the weapons they need to defend their lands, it's going to contain it. Over time the sanctions will bring Russia to the bargaining table. Until then Ukraine should be given any and all weapons they need.
Lets consider a couple factors here.
1. Quite a few people here and elsewhere have compared Putin to Hitler, meaning that he has a screw or two loose....I don't know for sure if that is just propaganda or if he is crazy. I still lean towards thinking that it is propaganda....but have not ruled out it being true.
2. We (the USA) have placed tightening sanctions on Russia....he also placed onerous sanctions on Japan prior to them reacting....Japan decided to lash out at us when they hit Pearl Harbor...they did not bend to our will or come back to the bargaining table. I would say that trying to back Putin into a corner is not the way to handle this, as it is too risky. He has already openly discussed the Nuclear abilities of his nation several times, which in itself is a ratcheting up of the ante. If any lashing out occurs now, it could be dozens of times worse than Pearl Harbor...at best.
Overall, Ukraine isn't important enough strategically (to us), to risk wider conflict. To Russia this land is very important, and I remain convinced they aren't going to leave until they get a good percentage of what they want. Ukraine is stuck in the middle. In addition to this, If we were to arm the Ukrainians, I believe Russia would ramp up it's participation and the dead would increase significantly. I continue to hold that those two nations have to work this out themselves and we can stay on Ukraine's 'side' as can other nations, but only to a point, and it will only help so much. One thing we (the west) can do, is prevent this from happening again, by helping other border nations to be better prepared....ultimately large predator nations like Russia, China, and the USA, are going to get away with more than others like, but the alternative is even worse.
Fathertime!
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There is no hard evidence that Putin is crazy. On the contrary there is evidence that he is simply the classic bully, who will pick on smaller ones provided that nobody else stops him. Once his own nose is bloodied than like most bullies he suddenly becomes a coward. Ukraine has been bloodying his nose pretty good, what with all the dead Russians going back home, or wherever they're going.
The West cannot stand idly by and do nothing except for sanctions. Whether it's the USA or other NATO members; Ukraine should receive the heavy weapons they need in order to protect their sovereign land.
In a few weeks time there should be a tidal wave of change in the US Congress; hopefully Congress will then be able to bypass the lame duck Obama, or better yet impeach him. Either way change is a coming, and it will likely be a good thing for Ukraine as well.
I noticed that Canada so far seems to be doing the most to arm and otherwise help Ukraine, and I applaud them for that.
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There is no hard evidence that Putin is crazy. On the contrary there is evidence that he is simply the classic bully, who will pick on smaller ones provided that nobody else stops him. Once his own nose is bloodied than like most bullies he suddenly becomes a coward. Ukraine has been bloodying his nose pretty good, what with all the dead Russians going back home, or wherever they're going.
The West cannot stand idly by and do nothing except for sanctions. Whether it's the USA or other NATO members; Ukraine should receive the heavy weapons they need in order to protect their sovereign land.
In a few weeks time there should be a tidal wave of change in the US Congress; hopefully Congress will then be able to bypass the lame duck Obama, or better yet impeach him. Either way change is a coming, and it will likely be a good thing for Ukraine as well.
I noticed that Canada so far seems to be doing the most to arm and otherwise help Ukraine, and I applaud them for that.
Agree 100%. My hats off to the Canadians.
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Lets consider a couple factors here.
1. Quite a few people here and elsewhere have compared Putin to Hitler, meaning that he has a screw or two loose....I don't know for sure if that is just propaganda or if he is crazy. I still lean towards thinking that it is propaganda....but have not ruled out it being true.
2. We (the USA) have placed tightening sanctions on Russia....he also placed onerous sanctions on Japan prior to them reacting....Japan decided to lash out at us when they hit Pearl Harbor...they did not bend to our will or come back to the bargaining table. I would say that trying to back Putin into a corner is not the way to handle this, as it is too risky. He has already openly discussed the Nuclear abilities of his nation several times, which in itself is a ratcheting up of the ante. If any lashing out occurs now, it could be dozens of times worse than Pearl Harbor...at best.
Overall, Ukraine isn't important enough strategically (to us), to risk wider conflict. To Russia this land is very important, and I remain convinced they aren't going to leave until they get a good percentage of what they want. Ukraine is stuck in the middle. In addition to this, If we were to arm the Ukrainians, I believe Russia would ramp up it's participation and the dead would increase significantly. I continue to hold that those two nations have to work this out themselves and we can stay on Ukraine's 'side' as can other nations, but only to a point, and it will only help so much. One thing we (the west) can do, is prevent this from happening again, by helping other border nations to be better prepared....ultimately large predator nations like Russia, China, and the USA, are going to get away with more than others like, but the alternative is even worse.
Fathertime!
Are there a set of circumstances that would justify a Russian nuclear first strike?
Why do voices inside the Kremlin (notably Kiselov) who keep bringing up Nuclear weapons?
Given your interactions with the Russian community, are they comfortable using nuclear weapons on their opponents? Tactical and strategic?
Do you acknowledge the presence of GRU and Russian Army regulars operating in Ukraine?
Are there things worth fighting WWIII over?
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The West cannot stand idly by and do nothing except for sanctions. Whether it's the USA or other NATO members; Ukraine should receive the heavy weapons they need in order to protect their sovereign land.
In a few weeks time there should be a tidal wave of change in the US Congress; hopefully Congress will then be able to bypass the lame duck Obama, or better yet impeach him. Either way change is a coming, and it will likely be a good thing for Ukraine as well.
I noticed that Canada so far seems to be doing the most to arm and otherwise help Ukraine, and I applaud them for that.
But the West is sitting idly by and you cannot blame Obama. The Poles have 4 spies in Belarus that they won't even ask to negotiate a trade. We have a Russian nuclear sub stuck in Swedish waters. Canada is sending aid. Whoopty do.
Weak
And most people can't be bothered with this stuff . . .
We criticize the Russians for being morally aloof at the suffering they inflict on their neighbors but what about us exactly is laudable?
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But the West is sitting idly by and you cannot blame Obama. The Poles have 4 spies in Belarus that they won't even ask to negotiate a trade. We have a Russian nuclear sub stuck in Swedish waters. Canada is sending aid. Whoopty do.
Weak
And most people can't be bothered with this stuff . . .
We criticize the Russians for being morally aloof at the suffering they inflict on their neighbors but what about us exactly is laudable?
I'm not sure I follow you. I do personally blame Obama for not assisting Ukraine. If Romney was President, as his wife recently said; Putin would not have invaded Ukraine, as he would have known that there would have been real repercussions. The sanctions are good, but not good enough.
I also blame those who voted for Obama; perhaps not the first time around, but definitely the second time around.
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Maybe the smart money is with Doll and her Compadres. Their leader is singular in his purpose. We can't even agree on what to do what is most obvious - Regime change.
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Poroshenko and Ukrainian loyalists should re-draw Ukraine's eastern border.
Allow new Russia or new Donetsk or whatever they want to call it to exist as a separate state, separatist's new country, or Russia's new Russia. This new country would not include Mariupol' and would not include a lot of those two oblasts that are under Ukrainian control now. It would not include a land bridge to Crimea.
This would allow Ukraine to strengthen its remaining territory. That's important. The remaining Ukraine would have control of its borders. The remaining Ukraine could have reinforcements from the EU. This would draw a defined line in the sand.
The limb is dead. Amputate it. Russia has killed it. Separatists have killed it. Let the area be independent and it will serve as an extreme example of the difference in Putin/Soviet and EU ideologies. The new Russia region will look like sh#t compared with the new Ukraine that will integrate with the west and prosper like Poland. Follow that course and it will be even more evident to the world (and Russia) that Putin is ruining Russia.
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Then what's to stop him from changing the border again? More amputations and more of Ukraine for the vile Huilonista's?
Where would it stop in this mystical scenario? Kyiv? Krakow? Berlin? Paris?
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Heavy weaponry. Stricter border control- something that hasn't existed on the eastern front. I said a new well-defined border.
Where has there been a well-defined border up to this point? Nowhere. The eastern border can't be defended. The area is in a 'cross fire'.
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Poroshenko and Ukrainian loyalists should re-draw Ukraine's eastern border.
Allow new Russia or new Donetsk or whatever they want to call it to exist as a separate state, separatist's new country, or Russia's new Russia. This new country would not include Mariupol' and would not include a lot of those two oblasts that are under Ukrainian control now. It would not include a land bridge to Crimea.
This would allow Ukraine to strengthen its remaining territory. That's important. The remaining Ukraine would have control of its borders. The remaining Ukraine could have reinforcements from the EU. This would draw a defined line in the sand.
The limb is dead. Amputate it. Russia has killed it. Separatists have killed it. Let the area be independent and it will serve as an extreme example of the difference in Putin/Soviet and EU ideologies. The new Russia region will look like sh#t compared with the new Ukraine that will integrate with the west and prosper like Poland. Follow that course and it will be even more evident to the world (and Russia) that Putin is ruining Russia.
I understand your logic however the new 'Separatist State(s)' would be landlocked inside the greater Ukraine border and it seems to me that it would create a festering cancer that Putin would continue to use to destabilize Ukraine.
Seems to me a better solution would be to gather the necessary resources and wipe out the terrorists. Anyone left that wants to go to the 'motherland' should have transportation provided by Ukraine.
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Then what's to stop him from changing the border again? More amputations and more of Ukraine for the vile Huilonista's?
Where would it stop in this mystical scenario? Kyiv? Krakow? Berlin? Paris?
Exactly. Those are Ukrainian lands. NO CAPITULATION!
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Maybe the smart money is with Doll and her Compadres. Their leader is singular in his purpose. We can't even agree on what to do what is most obvious - Regime change.
Stop your whining, it's embarrassing. Who elected you head white flag waver anyways? Pathetic.
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Poroshenko and Ukrainian loyalists should re-draw Ukraine's eastern border.
Allow new Russia or new Donetsk or whatever they want to call it to exist as a separate state, separatist's new country, or Russia's new Russia. This new country would not include Mariupol' and would not include a lot of those two oblasts that are under Ukrainian control now. It would not include a land bridge to Crimea.
This would allow Ukraine to strengthen its remaining territory. That's important. The remaining Ukraine would have control of its borders. The remaining Ukraine could have reinforcements from the EU. This would draw a defined line in the sand.
The limb is dead. Amputate it. Russia has killed it. Separatists have killed it. Let the area be independent and it will serve as an extreme example of the difference in Putin/Soviet and EU ideologies. The new Russia region will look like sh#t compared with the new Ukraine that will integrate with the west and prosper like Poland. Follow that course and it will be even more evident to the world (and Russia) that Putin is ruining Russia.
There is your white flag AC.
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Stop your whining, it's embarrassing. Who elected you head white flag waver anyways? Pathetic.
The response of the Ukrainian patriots inspires freedom loving people worldwide. Yet the West is not helping Ukraine. Even you admit that or are you defending our response? Our response is pathetic.
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Poroshenko and Ukrainian loyalists should re-draw Ukraine's eastern border.....
This is Fathertime's win-win scenario, except it still is not a "win." What about the citizens in the affected area? A plebiscite is the only answer, yet a plebiscite in a war ravaged area evacuated by many residents would not be valid IMO.
The world essentially is supporting Ukraine. Let the sanctions continue against Russia. Meanwhile, Ukraine needs to work on getting the rest of its house in order.
Ukraine should defend the existing ceasefire lines. If the rebels go on offensive and expand, tighten the sanctions.
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The response of the Ukrainian patriots inspires freedom loving people worldwide. Yet the West is not helping Ukraine. Even you admit that or are you defending our response? Our response is pathetic.
Okay, I see what you were trying to say. Our response with the sanctions is good; but there needs to be more help coming for Ukraine. They also need to get their house in order in regards to alleged official corruption.
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This is Fathertime's win-win scenario, except it still is not a "win." What about the citizens in the affected area? A plebiscite is the only answer, yet a plebiscite in a war ravaged area evacuated by many residents would not be valid IMO.
The world essentially is supporting Ukraine. Let the sanctions continue against Russia. Meanwhile, Ukraine needs to work on getting the rest of its house in order.
Ukraine should defend the existing ceasefire lines. If the rebels go on offensive and expand, tighten the sanctions.
Agreed; but even better or in addition to sanctions is give Ukraine the heavy weapons they need to ensure that Putin never gets his land bridge to Crimea, while simultaneously further isolating the Putin regime.
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Are there things worth fighting WWIII over?
Well try to look at this from Putin's viewpoint, he might decide that being defeated by NATO/US forces (and an uncertain aftermath for him personallY) would be reason enough to escalate into WWIII and quite possibly the use of atomic weaponry .
Fathertime!
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So a Russian first strike is on the table as rational. 1 nuke or all 1500 to 5000? Tactical or Strategic?
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So a Russian first strike is on the table as rational.
I didn't comment about it being rational. What do you think he would do?
Fathertime!
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He likely strike first. Probably at US. That's what I would do. Take out America and send a message. Europe would be mine. If after I nuked America and Europe doesn't bend over, wipe out Warsaw. Then people will trade in Rubles.
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He likely strike first. Probably at US. That's what I would do. Take out America and send a message. Europe would be mine. If after I nuked America and Europe doesn't bend over, wipe out Warsaw. Then people will trade in Rubles.
I think you have lost your mind! Putin knows that the first nuke coming to the USA will result in him becoming radioactive dust. The survive-ability of our our nukes are adaquate to make sure of it. That is why MAD has worked for so many years (on both sides).
Your imagination must be running overtime in preparation for your next comic book.
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One man is only authorized a counter strike, will he give the order?
But hey since you reassuredly me that nukes will not be used by anyone, I guess there is nothing to worry about.
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Betting big money? How much? I'll be delighted to take a little of you public pension, although I don't mind if you think i'm from Cuba.
I'll be curious to see how you deflect and scamper away now that I have called your definite bluff! :D
Fathertime!
Absolutely pathetic.
Let's see your win-win scenario. Give to Russia blanket approval to change territorial integrity in sovereign countries. Then castrate US response to Russia's aggression in the name of saving (American and Russian) lives. On top of that have the US recognize the act of aggression as legitimate with the pretext of being humanitarian.
Quick question for you. Who is benefitting here? Very simple answer to the thinking man and woman.
You can take your time or deflect, tovarish, which is your MO.
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Well try to look at this from Putin's viewpoint, he might decide that being defeated by NATO/US forces (and an uncertain aftermath for him personallY) would be reason enough to escalate into WWIII and quite possibly the use of atomic weaponry .
Fathertime!
From Putler's POV?
I rest my case.
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I didn't comment about it being rational. What do you think he would do?
Fathertime!
This is absolute bullshit.
You know who is another country that bluff their way into concessions by claiming nuclear strikes? North Korea. And you know that when you talk about N. Korea you have to qualify it with lunatic.
There is a reason analysts have already coined the term "the North Korea Syndrome."
However, nice try tovarish.
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This thread has really descended into a farce.
For all of Putin's chest-beating during his obvious mid-life crisis,i cannot imagine he would seriously consider a first nuclear strike against the USA or Europe..i'm sure he's well aware that would very quickly lead to the total obliteration of...Russia,even if some on here don't seem to comprehend that....the USA and Europe have plenty of Nukes too..they'll be flying within seconds of any Russian Nukes launched :rolleyes:
If the people in power in Russia even consider he'd do that it's time to remove him from office..or he'll be the death of all of them..and their families..unless they wish to see out their lives in underground bunkers.
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So we have 3 pro-Ukrainians on record as trusting Putin not to use them. Any more?
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Actually i'm not particularly pro-Ukrainian.
I don't have a Ukrainian wife or girlfriend,so i have no vested interest in what has been happening in Ukraine.
From my PERSONAL experience of dealing with Ukrainians,they can be no more trusted than the Russians..although obviously there are good people in both countries...unfortunately probably not the ones who have any power.
However,as someone who can clearly see who is in the wrong,without being blinkered by prejudices or political views or having to worry about what a Ukrainian/Russian wife/girlfriend thinks,or gloating about now being able to buy cheap property in Crimea( so no vested interest there then :rolleyes: )it's plainly obvious that a country that invades part of it's adjoining country and STEALS that land then supplies men and weapons to cause deaths and conflict in another part of that country is in the wrong...despite all the ramblings from the pro-Russian/anti-west conspiracy theorists on here and elsewhere.
Also,at least some Ukrainians had the courage to overthrow a corrupt President/Putin crony who was bleeding their country dry,and some lost their lives doing so.
Personally,i feel Putin is too greedy to risk losing everything, including all his material possessions, in a nuclear holocaust that he started.
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So we have 3 pro-Ukrainians on record as trusting Putin not to use them. Any more?
Moscow's nuclear stockpile is second largest on the planet if memory serves, of which, somewhere around 80% are pre Soviet era break up. In other words antiquated.
More importantly, Moscow doesn't have modern delivery systems/platforms. Russia does not have first strike capability *period*. However, even if they did launch/deploy first, they have no ballistic missile defense shield to stop what would be a simultaneous/coordinated nuclear response from several countries.
Russia is a formidable regional power or as one poster here put it 'a regional power with nucs' or words to that effect. They are no match for the U.S. or core NATO countries strategic nuclear or conventional forces. Putin knows this.
My opinion is that Putin/Kremlin would not employ nuclear weapons whether tactical or ballistic unless Russian territory itself was invaded/overrun and even then it'd be a desperation move.
The Russian military machine is a house of cards. It's Navy obsolete, it's airforce badly in need of modernizing and it's ground forces for the most part staffed with poorly trained conscripts. They are scrambling to modernize/rebuild but estimates are 2018-2020 before they see any results. That's if they have the funds to go ahead with Putin's grandiose plans in the first place (which I doubt).
Brass
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However,as someone who can clearly see who is in the wrong,without being blinkered by prejudices or political views or having to worry about what a Ukrainian/Russian wife/girlfriend thinks,or gloating about now being able to buy cheap property in Crimea( so no vested interest there then :rolleyes: )it's plainly obvious that a country that invades part of it's adjoining country and STEALS that land then supplies men and weapons to cause deaths and conflict in another part of that country is in the wrong...despite all the ramblings from the pro-Russian/anti-west conspiracy theorists on here and elsewhere.
:clapping:
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He likely strike first. Probably at US. That's what I would do. Take out America and send a message. Europe would be mine. If after I nuked America and Europe doesn't bend over, wipe out Warsaw. Then people will trade in Rubles.
If Putin were permitted by those around him to fire a nuke at the USA, I can't imagine that this wouldn't be met with an enormous and severe response. He would know this, so it would be an act of desperation and I think western leaders know better then to push that hard. I think the leaders of countries will find a way through this particular conflict without it escalating to that point.
Fathertime!
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Brass threw a lot of Cold Water on their 1st Strike capabilities. I have to verify it but I think he is right.
Let's just say he did have the capability, do you think Obama would fire back?
Unlike the CW calculus, post CW nuke war, you would not want to blow your load. Also nonparticipatants would eventually win any limited nuclear war, do they not become combatants at worst or rivals in the post war peace?
Chelseaboy is right. Its all absurd, but given the 62 year old's ability to stun and amaze, you have to consider all options IMHO FWIW
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The Russian military machine is a house of cards. It's Navy obsolete, it's airforce badly in need of modernizing and it's ground forces for the most part staffed with poorly trained conscripts. They are scrambling to modernize/rebuild but estimates are 2018-2020 before they see any results. That's if they have the funds to go ahead with Putin's grandiose plans in the first place (which I doubt).
Brass
Are you sure? These "poorly trained conscripts" won the most decisive battle of the war in Ukraine in, according to one of the captured Ukrainian solders, 20 minutes! After that, Poroshenko was pretty much forced to beg Russia for a ceasefire.
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Are you sure? These "poorly trained conscripts" won the most decisive battle of the war in Ukraine in, according to one of the captured Ukrainian solders, 20 minutes! After that, Poroshenko was pretty much forced to beg Russia for a ceasefire.
Did you loose your mind? Aren't those "poorly trained conscripts" not even in Ukraine?
Putin will go in history as the man who made russia and all russians together with it into nothing more than a disgrace and a repugnance.
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Did you loose your mind? Aren't those "poorly trained conscripts" not even in Ukraine?
:ROFL:
I'm sorry, missAmeno - of course, those were just "ghost" soldiers (not on the official payroll)!
Putin will go in history as the man who made russia and all many russians together with it into nothing more than a disgrace and a repugnance.
If this carries on for much longer, I believe you may be right, although I've edited your quote slightly. You can't generalise to that extent, no matter how it may seem.
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Are you sure? These "poorly trained conscripts" won the most decisive battle of the war in Ukraine in, according to one of the captured Ukrainian solders, 20 minutes! After that, Poroshenko was pretty much forced to beg Russia for a ceasefire.
I'll assume it's Novoazovsk your referring to as the "most decisive battle of the war in Ukraine" as this is the only military operation the Russians were involved in up to that point in the war that could be construed as a success.
I would argue that Russian armored columns with tanks numbering in the hundreds, heavy artillery and combat support battalions launching a surprise attack to open a new front from across the Russian border over a hundred kilometres from the established war zone by (what Moscow still insists is) a non combatant country as more of an ambush than decisive battle.
Even then, the meager units that were available to reinforce the Ukraine army in the immediate area after the initial fire fights did regroup and blunted the incursion.
Your question ties two unrelated subjects together but to answer am I sure of my assessment of the training and over all battle readiness of the Russian conscript soldier? Yeah, I'm sure.
You claim it was Poroshenko who was forced to beg for a cease fire. Again, assuming your talking about the cease fire (such as it is) currently in place. It was Putin who drafted and approached Poroshenko with a proposal not the other way around.
Brass
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BRASS,
i would agree with you ,
ukraines fighting spirit has shown true grit which has surprised some people i think ;)
SX
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It's too bad that Yanku and his henchmen got away with most of the funds so UA can't fund the war as it should be to fight the Russian terrorists.
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I'll assume it's Novoazovsk your referring to as the "most decisive battle of the war in Ukraine" as this is the only military operation the Russians were involved in up to that point in the war that could be construed as a success.
No, I'm not. I'm referring to this:
...
Alexei Koshelenko, who said he was captured on Aug. 24-25 near the town of Ilovaysk, said: "We were hit by (multiple rocket launcher) Grads and after that the troops just swept us away. We were completely defeated within 20 minutes. Many of us were killed, others are missing."
"They were Russians," he said after being released with other prisoners of war. Referring to a city 300 km (200 miles) northeast of Moscow, he said: "They said they were an airborne assault battalion from Kostroma."
You claim it was Poroshenko who was forced to beg for a cease fire. Again, assuming your talking about the cease fire (such as it is) currently in place. It was Putin who drafted and approached Poroshenko with a proposal not the other way around.
Brass
BRASS,
i would agree with you ,
ukraines fighting spirit has shown true grit which has surprised some people i think ;)
SX
I have no doubts about the fighting spirit of the Ukrainian people. The point I was trying to make (obviously badly) was that, without this particular Russian incursion, a call for a ceasefire would not have been needed because, at that stage, the rebels and their "volunteer" supporters were very much on the back foot as the Ukrainian army advanced. Another couple of weeks at that rate of progress, and I think that the two so-called Republics would have become just another footnote in the history of Ukraine.
Putin would not have dared to offer any sort of peace proposal had the latter occurred, let alone be able to offer one with such (well-hidden) glee.
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I might be wrong but I think Poroshenko is doing a good job.
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Gary Kasparov calls Putin the most dangerous man in the World; says that ISIS is a diversion and questions why the West would give arms to Syrian rebels but not Ukrainians:
http://news.yahoo.com/bianna-golodryga-interviews-garry-kasparov-093317385.html?tab=katiec2014
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No, I'm not. I'm referring to this:
...
Alexei Koshelenko, who said he was captured on Aug. 24-25 near the town of Ilovaysk, said: "We were hit by (multiple rocket launcher) Grads and after that the troops just swept us away. We were completely defeated within 20 minutes. Many of us were killed, others are missing."
"They were Russians," he said after being released with other prisoners of war. Referring to a city 300 km (200 miles) northeast of Moscow, he said: "They said they were an airborne assault battalion from Kostroma."
Ok, got you. Thanks for the clarification.
At a glance it appears Ukrainian forces were overwhelmed and broken up by Russian regulars. It looks as though after a running battle for the town with neither side taking the upper hand the Russians shelled the town (mortars, artillery and rockets) then entered the town with the resulting Ukrainian forces killed or captured.
So, is this a military defeat? Yes. It does not change my assessment of the Russian conscript soldier though.
It appears this town (and soldiers) were on the wrong end of a sustained rocket, mortar, arty barrage before the Russians entered the town. I'd suggest that had a lot to do with the ease in which the Russians secured the town (your attached narrative).
Having said that the Russians do have specialist units and if the Ukrainians had the unfortunate luck of running into one of these battalions it might well have been a rout.
I have no doubts about the fighting spirit of the Ukrainian people. The point I was trying to make (obviously badly) was that, without this particular Russian incursion, a call for a ceasefire would not have been needed because, at that stage, the rebels and their "volunteer" supporters were very much on the back foot as the Ukrainian army advanced. Another couple of weeks at that rate of progress, and I think that the two so-called Republics would have become just another footnote in the history of Ukraine.
Putin would not have dared to offer any sort of peace proposal had the latter occurred, let alone be able to offer one with such (well-hidden) glee.
You may be right. I believe the peace proposal was timed to coincide with the NATO conference in an effort to mitigate any resolutions that might be put forward or adopted.
Brass
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I don't know if these troops qualify for your definition of specialist units, however Russian airborne assault soldiers from Ivanovo and Kostroma were in Ukraine. It's not like Putin is going to send untested troops to battle in Ukraine -- pehaps he is sending these type of combat proven troops to see how they do; and perhaps later he will send the even "better" Speznats to do his dirty work. (pardon if somebody already posted information about this):
excerpt
Paratroopers from Kostroma
“They didn’t get lost, they just used 2015 maps,” Lyudmila Khokhlova, chairman of the Kostroma Council of soldier’s mothers, recalls a joke from the web on the paratroopers of the 331 Guards Airborne Regiment based in Kostroma. On August 25 the Security Service of Ukraine [SBU] published videos of interrogations of paratroopers from Kostroma detained the day before near Dzerkalne, Amvrosiyivka district, Donetsk region. This spot is 36 kilometers to the West of the Russian border and 10 kilometers to the south of Mnogopillya where the Ulyanovsk paratroopers were captured.
In the video nine grim men in camo with no insignia take turns to tell how they ended up in the warzone. The video was intended to back Kyiv’s claims of the participation of Russian regulars in the conflict. The soldiers said they’d arrived to Rostov region for battalion tactocan maneuvers, where they’d set up camp near Matveev Kurgan township. Some time later the paratroopers were ordered to accompany a vehicle convoy. They crossed the border on an unmarked stretch and the same day were detained by Ukrainian soldiers.
Russia claims the paratroopers got lost during maneuvers and accidentally entered Ukraine. On August 31 – after talks of the Presidents in Ukraine and Russia in Minsk – the soldiers were transferred to Russia.
The nine detainees, upon spending some time in Rostov and them in the military hospital named after Burdenko in Moscow, have already returned to Kostroma. One, seriously wounded, stays at a burn treatment center in St. Petersburg [The SBU video did not feature the wounded one], relatives of former captives say. Now the released soldiers are on vacation, they may resume their contract service if they want to do so, the 98th Division’s Deputy Commander for Morale & Welfare colonel Alexander Khotulev told RBC. Khotulev refused to comment whether his unit had suffered losses. However, relatives of the paratroopers say it was Khotulev who on August 26 told the families there were two dead and ten wounded in the division.
The 98th Guards Airborne Division is based in Ivanovo and Kostroma regions. The 331 Kostroma regiment, part of the division, took part in settlmenet of ethnic conflicts in Transcaucasia, Transdniestria, Yugoslavia, North Ossetia. In 2008 the Kostroma paratroopers took part in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict.
The first known killed contract soldier from this unit is Sergey Seleznev, buried on September 2 in Vladimir. A representative of the military commissariat told a local paper Pro Gorod that the soldier died during maneuvers in Rostov region. The circumstances of the death of another paratrooper, Andrei Pilipchuk from Kostroma region, remained unknown. Andrei’s friends and relatives told about his death on social neywork pages, but later deleted all the information. Kirill Rubankov, editor of Glavniy Portal Kostromy, claims that Pilipchuk’s relative confirmed the paratrooper’s burial in private. She refused to talk with RBC."
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/03/russian-soldiers-in-ukraine-an-investigation/
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This is a link to the story about the battle on August 24th and 25th which Anotherkiwi was referring to:
"Alexei Koshelenko said he was captured during heavy fighting on Aug. 24-25 near the town of Ilovaysk, east of the separatist stronghold of Donetsk.He said his 93rd mechanised brigade was encircled and quickly overrun in the battle, in which forces loyal to the Kiev ..."
http://www.in.com/news/current-affairs/ukrainians-say-russian-troops-captured-them-in-east-ukraine-52957529-in-1.html
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I don't know if these troops qualify for your definition of specialist units, however Russian airborne assault soldiers from Ivanovo and Kostroma were in Ukraine. It's not like Putin is going to send untested troops to battle in Ukraine -- pehaps he is sending these type of combat proven troops to see how they do; and perhaps later he will send the even "better" Speznats to do his dirty work. (pardon if somebody already posted information about this):
excerpt
Paratroopers from Kostroma
“They didn’t get lost, they just used 2015 maps,” Lyudmila Khokhlova, chairman of the Kostroma Council of soldier’s mothers, recalls a joke from the web on the paratroopers of the 331 Guards Airborne Regiment based in Kostroma. On August 25 the Security Service of Ukraine [SBU] published videos of interrogations of paratroopers from Kostroma detained the day before near Dzerkalne, Amvrosiyivka district, Donetsk region. This spot is 36 kilometers to the West of the Russian border and 10 kilometers to the south of Mnogopillya where the Ulyanovsk paratroopers were captured.
In the video nine grim men in camo with no insignia take turns to tell how they ended up in the warzone. The video was intended to back Kyiv’s claims of the participation of Russian regulars in the conflict. The soldiers said they’d arrived to Rostov region for battalion tactocan maneuvers, where they’d set up camp near Matveev Kurgan township. Some time later the paratroopers were ordered to accompany a vehicle convoy. They crossed the border on an unmarked stretch and the same day were detained by Ukrainian soldiers.
Russia claims the paratroopers got lost during maneuvers and accidentally entered Ukraine. On August 31 – after talks of the Presidents in Ukraine and Russia in Minsk – the soldiers were transferred to Russia.
The nine detainees, upon spending some time in Rostov and them in the military hospital named after Burdenko in Moscow, have already returned to Kostroma. One, seriously wounded, stays at a burn treatment center in St. Petersburg [The SBU video did not feature the wounded one], relatives of former captives say. Now the released soldiers are on vacation, they may resume their contract service if they want to do so, the 98th Division’s Deputy Commander for Morale & Welfare colonel Alexander Khotulev told RBC. Khotulev refused to comment whether his unit had suffered losses. However, relatives of the paratroopers say it was Khotulev who on August 26 told the families there were two dead and ten wounded in the division.
The 98th Guards Airborne Division is based in Ivanovo and Kostroma regions. The 331 Kostroma regiment, part of the division, took part in settlmenet of ethnic conflicts in Transcaucasia, Transdniestria, Yugoslavia, North Ossetia. In 2008 the Kostroma paratroopers took part in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict.
The first known killed contract soldier from this unit is Sergey Seleznev, buried on September 2 in Vladimir. A representative of the military commissariat told a local paper Pro Gorod that the soldier died during maneuvers in Rostov region. The circumstances of the death of another paratrooper, Andrei Pilipchuk from Kostroma region, remained unknown. Andrei’s friends and relatives told about his death on social neywork pages, but later deleted all the information. Kirill Rubankov, editor of Glavniy Portal Kostromy, claims that Pilipchuk’s relative confirmed the paratrooper’s burial in private. She refused to talk with RBC."
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/10/03/russian-soldiers-in-ukraine-an-investigation/
Russian contract soldiers are roughly the equivalent of state hired NCO's. Only one step above conscript in the Russian military hierarchy. If the paratroopers are contract soldiers it's unlikely these guys are specialists.
Didn't we have pics of these guys posted here at one time? They weren't very well disciplined if memory serves, basically yakking up a storm.
Anyways, more on the contract soldiers here (doesn't seem to have been contaminated by the Russian wiki editors)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Ground_Forces#Contract_soldiers
Go to para 3.1.
Brass
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:clapping:
Good comments.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Ground_Forces#Contract_soldiers
Go to para 3.1.
"Two of every seven conscripts will become addicted to drugs and alcohol while serving their terms, and a further one in twenty will suffer homosexual rape, according to 2005 reports."
Isn't the whole gay thing banned in Russia?
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This is an excerpt from the link Brasscasing posted above:
"Crime and corruption in the ground forces
The new Russian Ground Forces inherited an increasing crime problem from their Soviet predecessors. As draft resistance grew in the last years of the Soviet Union, the authorities tried to compensate by enlisting men with criminal records and who spoke little or no Russian. Crime rates soared, with the military procurator in Moscow in September 1990 reporting a 40-percent increase in crime over the previous six months, including a 41-percent rise in serious bodily injuries.[56] Disappearances of weapons rose to rampant levels, especially in Eastern Europe and the Caucasus.[56]
Generals directing the withdrawals from Eastern Europe diverted arms, equipment, and foreign monies intended to build housing in Russia for the withdrawn troops. Several years later, the former commander in Germany, General Matvei Burlakov, and the Defence Minister, Pavel Grachev, had their involvement exposed. They were also accused of ordering the murder of reporter Dmitry Kholodov, who had been investigating the scandals.[56] In December 1996, Defence Minister Igor Rodionov ordered the dismissal of the Commander of the Ground Forces, General Vladimir Semyonov, for activities incompatible with his position — reportedly his wife's business activities.[57]
A 1995 study by the U.S. Foreign Military Studies Office[58] went as far as to say that the Armed Forces were "an institution increasingly defined by the high levels of military criminality and corruption embedded within it at every level." The FMSO noted that crime levels had always grown with social turbulence, such as the trauma Russia was passing through. The author identified four major types among the raft of criminality prevalent within the forces—weapons trafficking and the arms trade; business and commercial ventures; military crime beyond Russia's borders; and contract murder. Weapons disappearances began during the dissolution of the Union and has continued. Within units "rations are sold while soldiers grow hungry ... [while] fuel, spare parts, and equipment can be bought."[55] Meanwhile, voyemkomats take bribes to arrange avoidance of service, or a more comfortable posting.
Beyond the Russian frontier, drugs were smuggled across the Tajik border—supposedly being patrolled by Russian guards—by military aircraft, and a Russian senior officer, General Major Alexander Perelyakin, had been dismissed from his post with the United Nations peacekeeping force in Bosnia-Hercegovina (UNPROFOR), following continued complaints of smuggling, profiteering, and corruption. In terms of contract killings, beyond the Kholodov case, there have been widespread rumours that GRU Spetsnaz personnel have been moonlighting as mafiya hitmen.[59]
end of excerpt
To summarize I don't think that the Russians could fight against a world class experienced Army such as the American Army. I don't think that they could beat the Ukrainian Army either, if the Ukrainian Army had been given the heavy weapons and other equipment they requested.
That said I would not bet against the Russians if they were fighting on their own soil. And part of the problem is that many if not most Russians seem to think that Ukrainian lands are theirs.
The question is, can these type of criminal mercenaries win in the long run against Ukraine?
Clearly the Ukrainians have more spirit to fight for the sovereign territory of their own nation and they could do it if the UK and the USA would honor the moral and material obligations of the Budapest memorandum.
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"Two of every seven conscripts will become addicted to drugs and alcohol while serving their terms, and a further one in twenty will suffer homosexual rape, according to 2005 reports."
Isn't the whole gay thing banned in Russia?
Apparently you're only gay in Russia if you're on the receiving end. :-X
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To summarize I don't think that the Russians could fight against a world class experienced Army such as the American Army. I don't think that they could beat the Ukrainian Army either, if the Ukrainian Army had been given the heavy weapons and other equipment they requested.
That said I would not bet against the Russians if they were fighting on their own soil. And part of the problem is that many if not most Russians seem to think that Ukrainian lands are theirs.
The question is, can these type of criminal mercenaries win in the long run against Ukraine?
Clearly the Ukrainians have more spirit to fight for the sovereign territory of their own nation and they could do it if the UK and the USA would honor the moral and material obligations of the Budapest memorandum.
With all due respect to American ground troops-- without significant air superiority they would do no better than Ukrainians.America has always used a strategy of overwhelming numbers to attain a victory-- and that has not always been successful.Give the Ukrainians the right equipment and logistical support-- and they will do the job on the ground.Both sides now know Ukraine can "win" this battle-- and that is crucial to morale on both sides.
The morale of the Russian troops sent to Ukraine is low.They are being beaten by a less well-armed force-- and they are shocked.Russia is now short rotating troops in the area to try and prevent to high a degree of a loser attitude prevailing amongst their troops.Russian generals have proved quite inadequate in management--and grossly underestimated Ukrainian forces.
On the other hand-Ukrainian troops morale is rising-they have developed tactics and strategies to offset the superior equipment of the Russian forces and have gained a lot of confidence.The troops arriving now are better trained-- and are now getting longer time in training with more experienced guys passing on what they have learnt.
I think now that they can beat the Russians-- especially so if upgraded equipment can keep coming-hopefully at a faster rate.If Ukraine can contain the invasion as it now stands--that Will be the basis for a future to push the Russians right out of Ukraine.Poroshenko for played for time-- and once again it was the best compromise.For those calling on overt US involvement-- right now that would only see an unwanted escalation of potentially unmanageable proportions.The softly softly approach now will see Ukraine better organised for the spring -we shall see.There may be another big push of the Russians any day now-- but I tend to think they have the tail between the legs now.
Putin will be having a lot of pressure applied internally now--by the hawks and the doves.The problem he has is that any attempt to escalate may not help and he could still lose. militarily- and that would be certain to finish him-so he is hesitating now.
One last point--if the Russian forces were not using civilians as a shield-they would have been pushed out long ago. While the Russians happily shell anywhere anytime--the Ukrainian forces are constrained significantly on what and where they can shoot.
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JayH, I agree with your assessment. It's interesting to note that Putin is regularly saying that sanctions are not hurting Russia, yet many of his financial officials are saying quite the opposite. I am beginning to think that Putin is truly not so bright as many give him credit for. His ego is running Russia into the toilet because he is unwilling to admit his mistakes and pull back from his dreams. Time will tell how long the Russian elite and the sheeple will put up with his behavior.
The nationalistic popularity he enjoys at the moment may well quickly evaporate as soon as reality kicks in and affects their lives directly.
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You mean these 'Russian sheeple"??? :deadhorse:
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JayH, I agree with your assessment. It's interesting to note that Putin is regularly saying that sanctions are not hurting Russia, yet many of his financial officials are saying quite the opposite. I am beginning to think that Putin is truly not so bright as many give him credit for. His ego is running Russia into the toilet because he is unwilling to admit his mistakes and pull back from his dreams. Time will tell how long the Russian elite and the sheeple will put up with his behavior.
The nationalistic popularity he enjoys at the moment may well quickly evaporate as soon as reality kicks in and affects their lives directly.
I think many here think Putler is still making the calls. IMNSHO, he's just calling the play coming from the sidelines.
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The Russians could always use tactical nukes to achieve victory.
Poroshenko should supply the volunteer battalions who are doing much of the fighting.
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To claim that Americans only achieve victories because of air superiority is foolish. Without going into all of the details I call rubbish on that assertion.
That said the Ukrainians have performed magnificently, but they still need heavy tanks and other heavy weapons from the West for defensive reasons to prevent Putler from gaining the upper hand and gaining his land bridge to Crimea.
Any belief that they could withstand a total Russian invasion with material assistance is foolish.
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To claim that Americans only achieve victories because of air superiority is foolish. Without going into all of the details I call rubbish on that assertion.
That said the Ukrainians have performed magnificently, but they still need heavy tanks and other heavy weapons from the West for defensive reasons to prevent Putler from gaining the upper hand and gaining his land bridge to Crimea.
Any belief that they could withstand a total Russian invasion with material assistance is foolish.
I think you are wishful-thinking regarding their ground forces ability without air cover. If the Russians decide to use their air superiority, the party is over. Turn out the lights.
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The Russians could always use tactical nukes to achieve victory.
Poroshenko should supply the volunteer battalions who are doing much of the fighting.
Nukes are out of the scenario totally. He needs the land and the people to supply food. Besides this will bring the Budapest Accord into play. Not to mention WWIII.
You don't seem to understand. The volunteers can't be supplied by Poro because the coffers are dry thanks to Yanku and clan. The people of UA are digging into their pockets to do this. You can also donate.
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I can contribute to the absurdity of this discussion.
Putin will never attack the US knowing that that our cosmos weaponry program, developed under Ronald Reagan's SDI research, can on cue unleash thousands of meteorites to destroy Russian cities, oil fields, missile sites, etc.
We have already given Putin a demonstration of this program using a very small meteorite (Chelyabinsk, 15 February 2013).
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I can contribute to the absurdity of this discussion.
Putin will never attack the US knowing that that our cosmos weaponry program, developed under Ronald Reagan's SDI research, can on cue unleash thousands of meteorites to destroy Russian cities, oil fields, missile sites, etc.
We have already given Putin a demonstration of this program using a very small meteorite (Chelyabinsk, 15 February 2013).
I'm going to assume you're joking (adding to the absurdity) but if not please elaborate and provide some links.
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I think you are wishful-thinking regarding their ground forces ability without air cover. If the Russians decide to use their air superiority, the party is over. Turn out the lights.
Up thread a battle on August 24 & 25 was described and the Ukrainian soldier who was captured said that he and his comrades (most of whom are dead) were overwhelmed in 20 minutes and the Russians did not use their air superiority. I believe the Russians could take all the way to Transnistria without it; but certainly quicker with it.
I was referring to Jay's comment that the American Military only wins because of air superiority and I disagree. Certainly helps but if we had a total commitment of tanks, infantry, artillery, as well as special forces even without air coverage our military is better than any other fighting force.
Instead of realizing that time is critical and helping the Ukrainians Obama is golfing and sending our military to Africa for civilian duties having to do with Ebola. It's really a disgrace.
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Nukes are out of the scenario totally. He needs the land and the people to supply food. Besides this will bring the Budapest Accord into play. Not to mention WWIII.
Nuclear weapons are not out of the scenario totally. The fact that they exist and Russia has them has frozen much of the west in place. Use of nuclear weapons is not necessary, just having them, and a credible way to deliver them is enough.
Could these weapons be used? Yes they could, but the west will not push hard enough to put Russia/Putin in a position where their leader starts to really consider it...it appears he is already getting a lot of what he wants anyway. All the important nations seem to know better then to escalate TOO far against Russia...
Fathertime!
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I was referring to Jay's comment that the American Military only wins because of air superiority and I disagree. Certainly helps but if we had a total commitment of tanks, infantry, artillery, as well as special forces even without air coverage our military is better than any other fighting force.
To claim that Americans only achieve victories because of air superiority is foolish. Without going into all of the details I call rubbish on that assertion.
AC--- in the interests of accuracy as to what I actually said-I never like being attributed with something I did not say--- and if you look at your assertion-- and what I actually said--there is 2 comments I made that you have confused.Sure--I am being pedantic to a degree--but as you can see there is a significant difference.
With all due respect to American ground troops-- without significant air superiority they would do no better than Ukrainians.America has always used a strategy of overwhelming numbers to attain a victory-- and that has not always been successful .
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Nukes are out of the scenario totally. He needs the land and the people to supply food. Besides this will bring the Budapest Accord into play. Not to mention WWIII.
You don't seem to understand. The volunteers can't be supplied by Poro because the coffers are dry thanks to Yanku and clan. The people of UA are digging into their pockets to do this. You can also donate.
You buy that from them? Because the guys in the ranks don't.
As to Jay's anti-americanism, as someone who knows a thing or too about our military capabilities, he is right. We would have a tough time conquering and holding Ukraine. The only way to hold it is to destroy it, which is what I believe the President of Russia wants to do to Ukraine.
You don't want to think about nukes. Neither do I. The reason I keep bringing it because Russian government keep bringing it up. And these people sit on the Security Council.
So for the record, we have 4 Euromaidan "supporters" who trust in the beneficence of the Kursk rescuer, the Breslow manager, the Politskaya prosecutor and the aggressor in this current war.
No offense, but this attitude is part of the problem in the West.
We must stop at nothing in stopping Putin.
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AC-- please do not confuse my comments as denigrating the American military in any way. As it is today I would be delighted to see the US full bore confronting the Russians here in Ukraine( and I am sure if that were they would have Australian help-as they have had virtually everywhere in the past).
A little history-- with slight exaggeration-- the British( & Australian) way has been to fight a glorious battle while being outnumbered or undermanned-- and treating the loss or victory with some silly sense of superiority against the odds -- while virtually all of US battle history has been to attempt to use overwhelming numbers to tip the scales in their favour.It makes a lot more sense to me!!
If you think about it--it has been the reluctance of Putin to commit large numbers that has seen them in trouble in the east. It is possible that his window of opportunity to do that has now passed.
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If you don't want us to think you are not denigrating our military, the first thing to do is stop denigrating our military AFTER you apologize for denigrating our military.
Brass, you said you doubted Russian first strike capability yet they have 16 submarines carrying 409 nukes, one or two in the Gulf of Mexico. They have ICBMs too and they don't treaty cheat, so they?
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You buy that from them? Because the guys in the ranks don't.
As to Jay's anti-americanism, as someone who knows a thing or too about our military capabilities, he is right. We would have a tough time conquering and holding Ukraine. The only way to hold it is to destroy it, which is what I believe the President of Russia wants to do to Ukraine.
You don't want to think about nukes. Neither do I. The reason I keep bringing it because Russian government keep bringing it up. And these people sit on the Security Council.
So for the record, we have 4 Euromaidan "supporters" who trust in the beneficence of the Kursk rescuer, the Breslow manager, the Politskaya prosecutor and the aggressor in this current war.
No offense, but this attitude is part of the problem in the West.
We must stop at nothing in stopping Putin.
LT-- being observationally critical is not being anti American. Sure I can be critical -- but I also see the good parts and strengths.It is about not being a blind believer-- after all--it is the benefit of living with the ability to think and talk freely in democracies.
My comments earlier -- the Ukrainian ground forces can do the job required if they get the support.As such--US ground forces would not be required- save for special forces and instructors.That is not such a great political ask internally in the US. Give the Ukrainians air support,intelligence,equipment and logistical support and they would be very capable of pushing the Russian out of Ukraine ( including the Crimea) .
The key part of Ukrainian strategy from the start of the invasion has been to try and minimise the loss-- and not see Ukraine razed. If the build up of support can be achieved not so obviously -by stealth if you wish- it can avoid the Russians using that as a pretext to escalate.
As for Putin--I think the guy is crazy deluded--dangerous.The world will be doing itself a favour confronting him and Russia now--before it gets completely out of hand.
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You buy that from them? Because the guys in the ranks don't.
What guys in what ranks?
Care to back that up?
The friends and family I have in UA don't think that Huilo has 'eggs' big enough even if his ego say they are.
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What guys in what ranks?
Care to back that up?
The friends and family I have in UA don't think that Huilo has 'eggs' big enough even if his ego say they are.
Mike-- I often find myself laughing internally at how dismissive Ukrainians have become of Huilo ( which is how near enough everyone refers to him!!) . Total contempt .
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From my contacts worldwide that seems to be the general consensus. The gnome is a joke in many ways.
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What guys in what ranks?
Care to back that up?
The friends and family I have in UA don't think that Huilo has 'eggs' big enough even if his ego say they are.
Right Sector Battalions are saying but don't take my word for it, Simon Ostrovsky said as much.
http://news.vice.com/video/russian-roulette-dispatch-71
I am for emptying the Sierra Army Depot and giving the weapons to Ukraine but if Ukrainians share JayH's attitude toward my country then maybe Obama's do nothing policies need a rethink from me.
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I'm going to assume you're joking (adding to the absurdity) but if not please elaborate and provide some links.
Not joking. Elaboration is not possible because of the program's Top Secret classification.
I can disclose some self-evident information. For example, the Chelyabinsk demonstration was performed at a shallow atmospheric entry angle to minimize damage. You will recall the meteorite's approach was concealed by aligning its radiant with the morning sun. So if I were Russian I would be concerned during the midday sun.
Here's another clue - metallurgical analysis of fragments from the Chelyabinsk meteor showed some similarities with moon rocks. Obviously the meteorites are harvested from the moon, stored there and launched from the moon. The launch site can not be detected because it is on the dark side of the moon. The launch and flight control techniques are phenomenal and can not be discussed.
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http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=42962&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=381&cHash=2f1456abe3290904e5056a4755cc865c#.VE0NKnMo7qC
Russian thinking
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Brass, you said you doubted Russian first strike capability yet they have 16 submarines carrying 409 nukes, one or two in the Gulf of Mexico. They have ICBMs too and they don't treaty cheat, so they?
Let's take a look and see if these figures match up with yours...
..."Strategic submarines
All currently deployed strategic submarines were developed at the Rubin Central Design Bureau of Naval Equipment (St-Petersburg). All currently deployed strategic submarines were built at the Northern Machine-Building Production Association (Severodvinsk, Archangelsk oblast).
Submarines of the Project 667BDR (Delta III) class entered service in 1976-1982. The total of 14 ships of this class were built. These submarines carry the D-16R missile system with 16 R-29R (SS-N-18) missiles. Submarines of this class are being withdrawn from service.
Submarines of the Project 667BDRM (Delta IV) class entered service in 1985-1991. The total of 7 ships of this class were built, of which one (K-64 Vladimir) has been converted into a special-forces submarine. Submarines of this class carry the D-16RM missile system with 16 R-29RM (SS-N-23) missiles. The current plans call for keeping six 667BDRM submarines in service, so the submarines are undergoing overhaul during which they are equipped with new missiles.
Project 941 (Typhoon) submarines were deployed in 1981-1989. The total of six submarines of this class were built. Submarines of this class carry the D-19 missile system with 20 R-39 (SS-N-20) missiles. Since the missiles have reached end of their service lives, Project 941 submarines have been withdrawn from service. The only exception is the lead ship of the class, TK-208 Dmitry Donskoy, which has been refitted for tests of a new missile system, R-30 Bulava.
In 1996 Russia began construction of a strategic submarine of a new class, Project 955 (also known as Borey or Yuri Dolgorukiy). Construction of a second submarine of this type, Aleksandr Nevskiy, began in March 2004, and the third, Vladimir Monomakh - in March 2006. The new submarines will carry 16 launchers of a new missile, known as Bulava. Subsequent submarines, known as Project 955A, will have 20 Bulava launchers. The first two Project 955 submarines - Yuri Dolgorukiy and Aleksandr Nevskiy - were accepted for service in 2013. However, the submarines do not have missiles on board."...
In my opinion the R-30Bulava is the only strategic missile capable of testing NORAD or European strategic defense capabilities and it's still being tested with mixed results. The rest is basically junk...
Sea-launched ballistic missiles
All currently deployed sea-launched ballistic missiles were developed at the Machine-Building Design Bureau (Miass, Chelyabinsk oblast). The design bureau is currently named the V. P. Makeyev State Missile Center.
R-29R (SS-N-18) missiles are deployed on Project 667BDR submarines. The system was accepted for service in 1979. The missile has two liquid-fuel stages and carries three warheads. The missiles were produced at the Krasnoyarsk Machine-Building Plant.
R-29RM (SS-N-23) missiles are deployed on Project 667BDRM submarines. The system was accepted for service in 1986. The missile has three liquid-fuel stages (the third stage also works as a bus) and carries four warheads. In 1999 Russia resumed production of these missiles, in a modification known as Sineva, to be deployed on Project 667BDRM submarines during overhaul. Launch tests of the Sineva missile were completed in June 2004 and it was accepted for service in July 2007. Another modification of R-29RM, known as Liner, could carry up to 10 warheads.
Russia is currently developing a new sea-launched ballistic missile, known as R-30 Bulava. Development of this missile is done at the Moscow Institute of Thermal Technology. Flight tests of the missile began in September 2005. The new missile system is to be deployed on Project 955 submarines. Bulava was declared as carrying six warheads.
http://russianforces.org/navy/
I think at this point they have two modern submarine platforms (boomers) and no up to date missiles, LT. Tell me if I'm reading this wrong.
Brass
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If someone is waving a nuke at me, even if it doesn't work, I take it seriously.
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AC--- in the interests of accuracy as to what I actually said-I never like being attributed with something I did not say--- and if you look at your assertion-- and what I actually said--there is 2 comments I made that you have confused.Sure--I am being pedantic to a degree--but as you can see there is a significant difference.
Nice try Jay, but the first thing you say is that without air superiority that the Americans would do no better than the Ukrainians. That is false.
Then you go on to say that America has always used a strategy of overwhelming numbers to achieve victory. That is also false.
In regards to overwhelming numbers that is a Russian strategy going back to WWII.
Donald Rumsfeld in particular was heavily criticized by his Generals during the second Iraq war because they felt he did NOT commit enough troops to the battle and especially to the occupation. In fact American troops are trained on average every one troop can take on up to four enemy troops.
You are trying to walk back what you wrote, and it's there clear as a bright sunny day.
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As it is today I would be delighted to see the US full bore confronting the Russians here in Ukraine( and I am sure if that were they would have Australian help-as they have had virtually everywhere in the past).
NO, NO, NO. That would definitely start WWIII. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Ukraine does not need American troops on their soil; they need the heavy weapons and other weapons which they have asked for. On their soil they can do the job; provided they have the weaponry they need.
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You are trying to walk back what you wrote, and it's there clear as a bright sunny day.
In that case it is a pity that you cannot see the intent of what was written. fwiw--a/overwhelming numbers comment does not equal actual men on the ground b/ as a preferred strategy of US it still is .It is using your strengths!!!
The part you and others seem to miss--it is observation and not criticism.
Above all that--my actual point was US ground troops were not what is needed here.
Finally--I have zero interest in debating the relative merit of US capability. I have said many times here on this forum that I am in no doubt that the Russians would be beaten if Ukraine has US( & allies) help.
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NO, NO, NO. That would definitely start WWIII. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Ukraine does not need American troops on their soil; they need the heavy weapons and other weapons which they have asked for. On their soil they can do the job; provided they have the weaponry they need.
FCSake--go and read the totality of what was said.
No interest in being so pedantic as illustrating how you persist in taking words out of context.Grow up.
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If someone is waving a nuke at me, even if it doesn't work, I take it seriously.
Nobody is because you're obviously not a qualified General. It's painfully obvious to most qualified military minds that Putin yammering on about Nukes is nothing but an amateurish bluff.
Give Ukraine the weapons they need and if necessary park an Aircraft carrier or two in the Black Sea with full complement of Destroyers, and watch Putler suddenly back down and pull out of E. Ukraine (but not Crimea they are there like barnacles -- let that one go for another day).
George Bush, Jr. parked an Aircraft carrier off the coast of Georgia as well as sending 100's of cargo planes into Tsibli, Georgia and suddenly the Russians turned around on their advance towards the capital yet nobody here seems to remember those details.
Obama is not much of a President; he cares more about Ebola in Africa than peace in Europe.
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Actually, I think if the US or Ukraine allies provided a few planes or armed drones over East Ukraine the rebels could be pretty much defeated. Just taking out the Russian tanks and heavy artillery (in Ukraine) would be a good start. What's the difference if the US is helping Ukraine? The Russians are helping the terrorists with arms and men. It's not like the US or allies would be invading Russia. In fact the Russians aren't even there (according to Putin). ;D
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With all due respect to American ground troops-- without significant air superiority they would do no better than Ukrainians.America has always used a strategy of overwhelming numbers to attain a victory...
Here 'ya go Jay. I am quickly becoming convinced that you are a lot of hot air. Plain as day.
False and False.
Without using Google Jay, tell us, what were the numbers of the American invasion force at the onset of the second Iraq war?
And how many millions of men were in the Iraqi Army?
Quick, let's see if you can answer the questions.
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Here 'ya go Jay. I am quickly becoming convinced that you are a lot of hot air. Plain as day.
False and False.
Without using Google Jay, tell us, what were the numbers of the American invasion force at the onset of the second Iraq war?
And how many millions of men were in the Iraqi Army?
Quick, let's see if you can answer the questions.
Like I said-
.Grow up.
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Nobody is because you're obviously not a qualified General. It's painfully obvious to most qualified military minds that Putin yammering on about Nukes is nothing but an amateurish bluff.
Give Ukraine the weapons they need and if necessary park an Aircraft carrier or two in the Black Sea with full complement of Destroyers, and watch Putler suddenly back down and pull out of E. Ukraine (but not Crimea they are there like barnacles -- let that one go for another day).
George Bush, Jr. parked an Aircraft carrier off the coast of Georgia as well as sending 100's of cargo planes into Tsibli, Georgia and suddenly the Russians turned around on their advance towards the capital yet nobody here seems to remember those details.
Obama is not much of a President; he cares more about Ebola in Africa than peace in Europe.
:clapping:
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Nobody is because you're obviously not a qualified General. It's painfully obvious to most qualified military minds that Putin yammering on about Nukes is nothing but an amateurish bluff.
Give Ukraine the weapons they need and if necessary park an Aircraft carrier or two in the Black Sea with full complement of Destroyers, and watch Putler suddenly back down and pull out of E. Ukraine (but not Crimea they are there like barnacles -- let that one go for another day).
George Bush, Jr. parked an Aircraft carrier off the coast of Georgia as well as sending 100's of cargo planes into Tsibli, Georgia and suddenly the Russians turned around on their advance towards the capital yet nobody here seems to remember those details.
Obama is not much of a President; he cares more about Ebola in Africa than peace in Europe.
Your post sure shows that you are'nt!!! Not even a competent armchair General.
finis- I will not bother with any debate to amuse you-go play with the ffff
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In that case it is a pity that you cannot see the intent of what was written. fwiw--a/overwhelming numbers comment does not equal actual men on the ground b/ as a preferred strategy
Oh, okay. English is apparently not your first language. FYI when you write "overwhelming numbers" it means exactly that; not some other half-baked theory that only you would know. :rolleyes:
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Your post sure shows that you are'nt!!! Not even a competent armchair General.
finis- I will not bother with any debate to amuse you-go play with the ffff
More hot air; nothing of substance.
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Nobody is because you're obviously not a qualified General. It's painfully obvious to most qualified military minds that Putin yammering on about Nukes is nothing but an amateurish bluff.
I agree with all of your post except this.
I don't care how capable you are, if you threaten me or mine, you die.
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Here 'ya go Jay. I am quickly becoming convinced that you are a lot of hot air. Plain as day.
False and False.
Without using Google Jay, tell us, what were the numbers of the American invasion force at the onset of the second Iraq war?
And how many millions of men were in the Iraqi Army?
Quick, let's see if you can answer the questions.
You are linking out a man who by his own words is advising the Poroshenko government.
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You are linking out a man who by his own words is advising the Poroshenko government.
If he is than the Ukrainians are in a hot mess!
:ROFL:
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LT-- being observationally critical is not being anti American. Sure I can be critical -- but I also see the good parts and strengths.It is about not being a blind believer-- after all--it is the benefit of living with the ability to think and talk freely in democracies.
My comments earlier -- the Ukrainian ground forces can do the job required if they get the support.As such--US ground forces would not be required- save for special forces and instructors.That is not such a great political ask internally in the US. Give the Ukrainians air support,intelligence,equipment and logistical support and they would be very capable of pushing the Russian out of Ukraine ( including the Crimea) .
The key part of Ukrainian strategy from the start of the invasion has been to try and minimise the loss-- and not see Ukraine razed. If the build up of support can be achieved not so obviously -by stealth if you wish- it can avoid the Russians using that as a pretext to escalate.
As for Putin--I think the guy is crazy deluded--dangerous.The world will be doing itself a favour confronting him and Russia now--before it gets completely out of hand.
I find your observational criticism of America at a time when American friendship is desired in poor taste. If you care, apologize. If you don't, by all means keep doing what you are doing.
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If he is than the Ukrainians are in a hot mess!
:ROFL:
I meant to say punking out not linking out. Gotta love auto correct.
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I agree with all of your post except this.
I don't care how capable you are, if you threaten me or mine, you die.
With all due respect Putin is clearly bluffing and he's doing so because he knows that there simply is no real American leadership in the World right now under Obama. As I wrote once before if Romney were President than Putin would be taking an entirely different tack and I doubt if he would have attempted the annexation of Crimea.
For sure he would not be in E. Ukraine right now because there clearly would have been consequences much greater than just sanctions.
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I am not like the 4 other Euromaidan activists who will call his bluff with hot air believing him to sensible, rational or humane. You don't negotiate with these people. You get to a place where you don't have to deal with them. We can't ignore him like Mugabe. We can't leave him to himself he is too powerful. We have to commit to regime change because he has nukes.
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With all due respect Putin is clearly bluffing and he's doing so because he knows that there simply is no real American leadership in the World right now under Obama. As I wrote once before if Romney were President than Putin would be taking an entirely different tack and I doubt if he would have attempted the annexation of Crimea.
For sure he would not be in E. Ukraine right now because there clearly would have been consequences much greater than just sanctions.
Very true!
The question is, how much more damage can Putin do to the world before we can get rid of Obama?
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Not joking. Elaboration is not possible because of the program's Top Secret classification.
I can disclose some self-evident information. For example, the Chelyabinsk demonstration was performed at a shallow atmospheric entry angle to minimize damage. You will recall the meteorite's approach was concealed by aligning its radiant with the morning sun. So if I were Russian I would be concerned during the midday sun.
Here's another clue - metallurgical analysis of fragments from the Chelyabinsk meteor showed some similarities with moon rocks. Obviously the meteorites are harvested from the moon, stored there and launched from the moon. The launch site can not be detected because it is on the dark side of the moon. The launch and flight control techniques are phenomenal and can not be discussed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kom0r3U8V8s
If only this were true: would Obama use such a weapons system? Nope.
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I am not like the 4 other Euromaidan activists who will call his bluff with hot air believing him to sensible, rational or humane. You don't negotiate with these people. You get to a place where you don't have to deal with them. We can't ignore him like Mugabe. We can't leave him to himself he is too powerful. We have to commit to regime change because he has nukes.
Well I like your ideas however simply don't agree with this particular opinion. Regime change of Russia is not an option by action of the USA and our allies nor is it really desired. Believe it or not there are many other Russians far more radical than Putin waiting in the wings.
Just give Ukraine the heavy weaponry they need and perhaps a few other things as well.
Call Putin's bluff and he will leave Ukraine very soon. Don't call his bluff and he may make a move all the way to Transnistra. As Calmissile just wrote: how much damage will be caused by Putin before Obama is gone? The sanctions are very good and working but more should be done.
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You would leave Putin in charge of Russia?
How long will he last if this war continues badly for him?
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You would leave Putin in charge of Russia?
How long will he last if this war continues badly for him?
Don't know don't care. Myself and most others just want him to get out of Ukraine! All the way out (including Crimea) may not happen within our lifetimes.
Try to force some sort of regime change in Russia and now you're no better than Putin and his desire to control Ukraine.
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OK.
I don't share your view or your indifference to Russia which would still threaten World Peace. We must break Russia into smaller republics. We have to separate Moscow from Russia. We have to seize all of its nuclear arsenal. We have to have pro-Western, pro-democracy leaders in each of these new republics or we will never know peace in Europe or Asia.
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OK.
I don't share your view or your indifference to Russia which would still threaten World Peace. We must break Russia into smaller republics. We have to separate Moscow from Russia. We have to seize all of its nuclear arsenal. We have to have pro-Western, pro-democracy leaders in each of these new republics or we will never know peace in Europe or Asia.
We don't need any of that, we just need another Ronald Reagan.
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We must break Russia into smaller republics. We have to separate Moscow from Russia.
Uhh Isn't this exactly what Russia is doing in Ukraine right now? Hasn't that been declared illegal by using all international laws? :rules:
BTW Just who is this "WE" you're tossing around so freely? :rolleyes:
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Uhh Isn't this exactly what Russia is doing in Ukraine right now? Hasn't that been declared illegal by using all international laws? :rules:
BTW Just who is this "WE" you're tossing around so freely? :rolleyes:
:clapping:
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I'm sure as he11 glad that he's not in charge. :rolleyes:
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I'm sure as he11 glad that he's not in charge. :rolleyes:
He's got the right spirit. Too many Americans can't even find Ukraine on a map. Most are too busy watching Kim Kardashian and her gigantic rear-end.
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I find your observational criticism of America at a time when American friendship is desired in poor taste. If you care, apologize. If you don't, by all means keep doing what you are doing.
LT--just as well you about to get your nuts frozen off--it will save me doing the kicking !! :welcome:
For a guy who is so disrespectful of your President and the system that elected him ( and in effect-- disrespecting the USA as a whole) you have more hide than is imaginable.You lecturing anyone on "poor taste" --now that is comic-- and would be laughable if not for your overwhelming poor taste.
Like I said-read the words I actually said.I said read--not quote them back at me.
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Well I hope whatever advise you are giving to Petro is better than they wisdom you are giving us.
You know it takes a big man to admit when he is wrong. The inverse is also true.
Russia is superpower. It will always be such because of its size, natural resources and nuclear weapons.
But if you really what to destroy Russia once and for all make it democratic. Ask Tsar Nicholas' grandfather and the Decembrists
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LT, Just how much time have you actually spent in UA?
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A couple months, why?
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Amazing.. simply amazing..
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I find your observational criticism of America at a time when American friendship is desired in poor taste. If you care, apologize. If you don't, by all means keep doing what you are doing.
I'll have to come to the (GASP, shudder) defense of Jay here.
LT, anyone who would make a criticism of what you say would be an anti-American to you.
Also, I know what Jay is trying to convey you and AC and it is a pity you both are frothing at the mouth.
I know LT is a lost cause, however, AC you should tone it down a bit. After all you both are rooting for the same team.
For heavens sake.
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With all due respect Putin is clearly bluffing and he's doing so because he knows that there simply is no real American leadership in the World right now under Obama. As I wrote once before if Romney were President than Putin would be taking an entirely different tack and I doubt if he would have attempted the annexation of Crimea.
For sure he would not be in E. Ukraine right now because there clearly would have been consequences much greater than just sanctions.
Now you are starting to sound like LT. Thin ice there my friend.
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Very true!
The question is, how much more damage can Putin do to the world before we can get rid of Obama?
Any excuse is good to get rid of the Nigr, right?
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Uhh Isn't this exactly what Russia is doing in Ukraine right now? Hasn't that been declared illegal by using all international laws? :rules:
BTW Just who is this "WE" you're tossing around so freely? :rolleyes:
AK, careful where you walk. Hope you brought a shovel. ;D
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Amazing.. simply amazing..
Your welcome dude.
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I'll have to come to the (GASP, shudder) defense of Jay here.
LT, anyone who would make a criticism of what you say would be an anti-American to you.
Also, I know what Jay is trying to convey you and AC and it is a pity you both are frothing at the mouth.
I know LT is a lost cause, however, AC you should tone it down a bit. After all you both are rooting for the same team.
For heavens sake.
You voted for Obama twice. Shall I go on?
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AK, careful where you walk. Hope you brought a shovel. ;D
So during WWII, we shouldn't have invaded Germany or dropped a hot one on Japan? You two keep comparing Putin to Hitler . . . then treat him like Hitler.
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If someone is waving a nuke at me, even if it doesn't work, I take it seriously.
Ah. Well, on this point we are in complete agreement.
Brass
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You voted for Obama twice. Shall I go on?
And you voted for McCain and Romney. Keep going.
Heh heh heh
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Ah. Well, on this point we are in complete agreement.
Brass
Lead the way Ranger
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And you voted for McCain and Romney. Keep going.
Heh heh heh
Your slavish devotion to our Golfer-in-Chief is duly noted.
Were either McCain or Romney President right now we would not be having this debate about Ukraine needing weapons from NATO.
And this is what George Bush, Jr. would have done to Putin:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/boehner-bush-would-have-punched-putin/vi-BBbBlPd?ocid=mailsignout
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Boom
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Were either McCain or Romney President right now we would not be having this debate about Ukraine needing weapons from NATO.
As dreadful as Obama was in 2008-2012, McCain probably would have been worse.
This country took a major misstep in not electing Romney. The economy, the nation's values, ... in fact everything, would be better today. Just my opinion and worth nothing.
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As dreadful as Obama was in 2008-2012, McCain probably would have been worse.
This country took a major misstep in not electing Romney. The economy, the nation's values, ... in fact everything, would be better today. Just my opinion and worth nothing.
Interesting. How much was the Dow and S&P when the Nigr took over and how much is it now?
The nation's value? Et Tu?
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Obama is unifying America (against him.)
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Obama is unifying (conservative) America (against him.)
There, fixed.
Now, what are you going to do about those pesky independents who abhor the extremists? You know, the ones who actually determine the elections in this country?
Ever thought of that? Of course not. Not enough brain cells.
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Obama is not only unifying the conservatives, but the independents and moderate democrats as well. It's so bad the democrats up for election do not even want Obama campaigning for them. One democrat won't even admit if she voted for Obama. ;D
Hopefully the new Republican Senate and House will send a message that it 's time the pendulum swings back from the welfare state and big government to a more moderate course forward.
As stubborn as Obama is, there is no guarantee that he will compromise on his agenda and actually allow work to get done in his last two years, but the tide is changing and middle America is already fed up with the Democratic Party and what they stand for. This elevates the probability for a Republican president in 2016.
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Obama is not only unifying the conservatives, but the independents and moderate democrats as well. It's so bad the democrats up for election do not even want Obama campaigning for them. One democrat won't even admit if she voted for Obama. ;D
Hopefully the new Republican Senate and House will send a message that it 's time the pendulum swings back from the welfare state and big government to a more moderate course forward.
As stubborn as Obama is, there is no guarantee that he will compromise on his agenda and actually allow work to get done in his last two years, but the tide is changing and middle America is already fed up with the Democratic Party and what they stand for. This elevates the probability for a Republican president in 2016.
You seem pretty sure the senate is going to be majority Republican...We shall see about that.
Overall it appears you are living in an echo chamber...I heard this same stuff in 2012, and Obama is still president.
Fathertime!
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Interesting. How much was the Dow and S&P when the Nigr took over and how much is it now?
The nation's value? Et Tu?
The dow was under 8000 when Obozo took over and hit low water a couple months later at around 6500....it is currently almost tripled and is now just over 17000....
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Thoughts from Brass?
Russia is threatening to turn USA into radioactiv…: http://youtu.be/EkMT_oLempE
I know its dated. But it is still very odd.
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Your probably much too young to remember all the Soviet saber rattling throughout the cold war. The Soviet military was much stronger at the time than they are today. It is the way the Soviets operate. It is their culture. Just like the constant lies, lies, lies that regularly pour out of the Kremlin, their bullying and threatening statements will continue to pour out until he is kicked in the teeth or loses face.
His current success is due to the cowards around the world that would rather capitulate rather than face the bully. It's no different than the schoolyard bully that continues to pick on others until he is confronted.
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Interesting. How much was the Dow and S&P when he took over and how much is it now?
The nation's value? Et Tu?
(I'm not going to repeat your implied racial slur)
How many middle class Americans had jobs when he took over, and how many have them now? Have middle class Americans (what's left of them) seen pay wages, or has their pay been declining?
What was the black unemployment rate when he took over (when George Bush Jr. was President) and what is it now? Let me help you with that one -- far more blacks were employed under Bush Jr. than they are now.
And most importantly, how many Trillions of dollars in debt have been added to the national debt under Obama?
Wall Street crooks making lots of money has little to do with most Americans. Most banks still don't lend to small businesses like they once did. It's all a sham and a house of cards which is likely to come down under the next President.
If he's a Republican you can blame him and he can blame Obama. After all for the first 5 years of the Obama Presidency dictatorship he blamed Bush Jr.
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Your probably much too young to remember all the Soviet saber rattling throughout the cold war. The Soviet military was much stronger at the time than they are today. It is the way the Soviets operate. It is their culture. Just like the constant lies, lies, lies that regularly pour out of the Kremlin, their bullying and threatening statements will continue to pour out until he is kicked in the teeth or loses face.
His current success is due to the cowards around the world that would rather capitulate rather than face the bully. It's no different than the schoolyard bully that continues to pick on others until he is confronted.
:clapping:
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Your probably much too young to remember all the Soviet saber rattling throughout the cold war. The Soviet military was much stronger at the time than they are today. It is the way the Soviets operate. It is their culture. Just like the constant lies, lies, lies that regularly pour out of the Kremlin, their bullying and threatening statements will continue to pour out until he is kicked in the teeth or loses face.
His current success is due to the cowards around the world that would rather capitulate rather than face the bully. It's no different than the schoolyard bully that continues to pick on others until he is confronted.
I've heard this tired old phrase often, and as far as I can see it has absolutely NO application here for a couple reasons.
1. This is not a schoolyard, and Russia doesn't at all appear to be bluffing. If this were across the ocean, they could be confronted and they would probably back down, but that isn't happening right on their doorstep....we are the ones going to be backing away this time...
2. If the silly 'bully' comparison actually meant anything, it still wouldn't be relevant...because often times bullies do kick the living shit out of people that stand up to them. It is an old wives tale to think that it only takes a bloody nose to stop all, or even most bullies when they are fighting over something dear to them.
In my opinion, the totality of circumstances with this situation do not call for a US intervention, therefore the US isn't going to do much more than it already is.
Fathertime!
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I've heard this tired old phrase often, and as far as I can see it has absolutely NO application here for a couple reasons.
1. This is not a schoolyard, and Russia doesn't at all appear to be bluffing. If this were across the ocean, they could be confronted and they would probably back down, but that isn't happening right on their doorstep....we are the ones going to be backing away this time...
2. If the silly 'bully' comparison actually meant anything, it still wouldn't be relevant...because often times bullies do kick the living shit out of people that stand up to them. It is an old wives tale to think that it only takes a bloody nose to stop all, or even most bullies when they are fighting over something dear to them.
In my opinion, the totality of circumstances with this situation do not call for a US intervention, therefore the US isn't going to do much more than it already is.
Fathertime!
1. "We" (the USA) are only backing down because Obama is a weakling. Did you see the video of him "working out" at a gym with weights that would embarrass most girls? :-X
2. Ukraine is more than capable of defending herself, provided that Ukraine gets the heavy weapons they need. Then we will see who is fighting over something dear to themselves.
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Interesting. How much was the Dow and S&P when the Nigr took over and how much is it now?
The real question was about Obama vs. McCain vs. Romney. I merely stated that Obama performed better than McCain would have done, but Romney was the class act of the three. And I doubt Romney would have sent arms to Ukraine.
Now that you mention the economy, please see the big picture. The American economy recovered in spite of Obama and all the government give away programs (pardon me, stimulus).
The American economy is business, and that is why the economy recovered, stimulated not by Obama's stimulus program but by the Fed's QE program. The stimulus programs were wasteful and thus anti-business, e. g., supporting the largesse of broken companies that should have been made leaner. The stimulus programs indirectly delayed the recovery and made the deficit larger. I must admit I do enjoy my improved roads that now get me to Costco much quicker.
I will not mention TARP as the jury is still out IMO.
OTOH we now have governing in Germany the opposite of Obama, the resurrection of Herbert Hoover.
And in spite of this around the world business keeps working.
Back to the Obama administration. How about the flawed energy program? Imagine what could have been done with government leadership. For example, a pipeline was not constructed that would ship oil for $10/bbl instead of the $30/bbl paid to Burlington Northern, owned by whom?
In spite of Obama policies, we are reducing our dependence on foreign oil, and oil prices are falling dramatically. Speaking of stimulus, do you realize what a stimula lower energy prices are to the American economy? H-U-G-E. The average American has more money to spend, our manufacturers have a competitive edge, etc.
I have a thousand economic examples. What annoys me more are the non-economic scandals and cover-ups (IRS, Fast and Furious, Benghazi, etc.). How about the broken campaign promises? How about our foreign policy successes? I know, I know....I must take it easy on Obama because it is his first job, and besides that the problems were created by Bush.
You say nigr not as a slur but to call me and others racist. I criticize without an ounce of racial prejudice. It really galls me that flaming liberals throw out the race card anytime a conservative criticizes Obama. It makes as much sense as saying I am anti- American. And speaking of race, the blacks need a leader. They have not had a leader since MLK, a loss greater than JFK. Obama could have filled the void. Did he? A thousand examples such as the respectable Russell Wilson says no.
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While we are talking politics, I remind my fellow American RWD members to vote in next week's election if you have not already voted early.
For those undecided, I have posted below 10 reasons why you should vote for the Democrats (a couple of which I agree with).
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=4594.msg379940#msg379940
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And just to add to Gators great post..
MLK was a Republican not a bleeding Democratic liberal.
He's rolling over in his grave at the way he's portrayed today.
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In spite of Obama policies, we are reducing our dependence on foreign oil, and oil prices are falling dramatically. Speaking of stimulus, do you realize what a stimula lower energy prices are to the American economy? H-U-G-E. The average American has more money to spend, our manufacturers have a competitive edge, etc.
:clapping:
And in spite of Obama's failed foreign policy, falling oil prices are hurting Russia's ability to wage war on their neighbors badly as well.
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US to Grant Weapons to Ukraine in the Next Two Weeks - US Senator
28.10.2014 21:39
He said during a briefing at the Ukraine Crisis Media Center, Censor.NET reports citing Ukrainska Pravda.
According to him, the Senate session, where the issue will be considered, will begin Nov. 12. Inhofe said that President Barack Obama can grant the permission to provide these weapons by his own. "If the president does not do so until that time, we will do everything to make it happen," he added.
According to him, this process may take from 4-5 days to two and a half weeks. Inhofe also said that he has received the list of weapons, which is expected to be provided to Ukraine, from the Secretary of Defense but refused to disclose its contents to the journalists.
He specified that Ukraine does not need to make any changes to the legislation or pass special procedures for weapons' granting since the defensive ones are meant.
He also noted that the US does not intend to take part in military operations in Ukraine. "I'm not saying that the United States will be involved in military activities. I'm talking about the support of one of our strongest allies - Ukraine," he said. Inhofe also assured that all the political forces and the US authorities are now united around the need to help Ukraine and prevent its return to the Soviet past.
He recalled that the US will soon carry out elections to the Senate. Inhofe expects Republicans to win a majority and the policy of this body on Ukraine, in particular, will change significantly as a result. "You'll see that the Republicans are more focused on National Security and Defense," the senator assured. He also said the United States now consider Ukraine one of its main partners and added that during 20 years of his stay in the Senate he has never seen such a warm welcome as the one President Poroshenko was met with.
The decision on granting Ukraine weapons is known to be made in the US Senate in mid-September.
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Obama may decide to supply arms to Ukraine without senate approval
The United States President Barack Obama can decide to supply arms to Ukraine for self-defense without the approval of the Senate, said Jim Inhofe, a deputy head of the Senate Committee on Armed Forces.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/obama-may-decide-to-supply-arms-to-ukraine-without-senate-approval-369820.html
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(I'm not going to repeat your implied racial slur)
How many middle class Americans had jobs when he took over, and how many have them now? Have middle class Americans (what's left of them) seen pay wages, or has their pay been declining?
(bla bla bla)
Man, you give a new meaning to dittohead!!
It is an obvious waste of time trying to discuss politics and economics with you.
Edit: I dare you look at me straight in the face and tell me you have never uttered the "racial slur"at the POTUS.
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Edit: I dare you look at me straight in the face and tell me you have never uttered the "racial slur"at the POTUS.
Now you're trying to project your own derisive opinion about the man onto me.
I have however referred to him lately as President Obola.
:ROFL:
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US to Grant Weapons to Ukraine in the Next Two Weeks - US Senator
28.10.2014 21:39
He said during a briefing at the Ukraine Crisis Media Center, Censor.NET reports citing Ukrainska Pravda.
According to him, the Senate session, where the issue will be considered, will begin Nov. 12. Inhofe said that President Barack Obama can grant the permission to provide these weapons by his own. "If the president does not do so until that time, we will do everything to make it happen," he added.
According to him, this process may take from 4-5 days to two and a half weeks. Inhofe also said that he has received the list of weapons, which is expected to be provided to Ukraine, from the Secretary of Defense but refused to disclose its contents to the journalists.
He specified that Ukraine does not need to make any changes to the legislation or pass special procedures for weapons' granting since the defensive ones are meant.
He also noted that the US does not intend to take part in military operations in Ukraine. "I'm not saying that the United States will be involved in military activities. I'm talking about the support of one of our strongest allies - Ukraine," he said. Inhofe also assured that all the political forces and the US authorities are now united around the need to help Ukraine and prevent its return to the Soviet past.
He recalled that the US will soon carry out elections to the Senate. Inhofe expects Republicans to win a majority and the policy of this body on Ukraine, in particular, will change significantly as a result. "You'll see that the Republicans are more focused on National Security and Defense," the senator assured. He also said the United States now consider Ukraine one of its main partners and added that during 20 years of his stay in the Senate he has never seen such a warm welcome as the one President Poroshenko was met with.
The decision on granting Ukraine weapons is known to be made in the US Senate in mid-September.
Who is this alleged Senator? Is it Senator Inhoff? Try to take more care in your posts; they're often very hard to decipher.
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Jay, is ingratitude a uniquely Australian quirk or does that come with age?
FWIW, most the Aussies I met were top notch, but then again, I met them in the military.
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Man, you give a new meaning to dittohead!!
It is an obvious waste of time trying to discuss politics and economics with you.
Here's an example of typical Democratic politics and economics wrapped up into one:
http://www.caintv.com/youll-be-shocked-to-learn-that
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Piece by piece we are getting the info that confirms that help has started flowing.It has made a BIG difference to Ukrainian military from only 6 months ago when soldiers were having to buy their own equipment and food.
Britain sent military aid Ukrainian
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/velika-britaniya-nadislala-dopomogu-ukrayinskim-viyskovim-398096.html
Partner countries helping Armed Forces of Ukraine clothing, body armor and dry rations. facebook.com/a.aleksyeyenko Ukrainian military received support from their British counterparts. The Armed Forces of Ukraine received humanitarian aid from the United Kingdom. British colleagues gave Ukrainian servicemen winter form and equipment allowance. The press service of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine. It is reported that during the 2014 Armed Forces of Ukraine assisted not only Britain but also other partner countries. Thus, the United States provided proprietary property and hardware, France - body armor and medical supplies, and Slovakia - generators, lighting kits, plastic utensils, proprietary equipment and medical supplies. In addition, Norway gave Ukrainian military packed lunch, and Denmark - technology. From Canada to Ukraine received personal protective equipment and winter clothing, and Poland - packed lunch and bedding. Lithuania sent dry rations, medical supplies, clothing property, Switzerland - medicines and medical supplies, and the Netherlands - generators and winter boots. Read more: Poland is ready to help Ukraine arms and equipment - Komorowski Spain has helped the defenders of Ukraine body armor and helmets. In turn, Latvia has provided school supplies and other necessary things for children of military personnel who have been displaced from ARC. Recall that in the near future assistance to the Armed Forces Ukraine plans to Australia and Poland.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/velika-britaniya-nadislala-dopomogu-ukrayinskim-viyskovim-398096.html
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Its peanuts.
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Its peanuts.
I agree-- but more important is that it is a least a start. It has also been going on for some time now .Anything that can help the guys in the frontline in any way--I am pleased to see.
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I am pleased.
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Canada has been a very active participant in helping the Ukrainian military for months. Italy began recently.
Meanwhile the French have, at least for now, decided not to deliver the Mistral warships to Russia. In fact, the 400 Russian sailors training on the first Mistral have been recalled to Russia. Just 24 hours ago they departed France on the Russian ship Smolny and are en route back to Russia.
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This is an important development--the thin edge of the wedge I hope. As I said above-- anything is good and at least a start.
Re Mende post above-- other countries that have been trying to help for some time--Hungary.Slovakia,Poland in particular.
Today--the most important development.
Obama announced that signed the "Freedom Support Act in Ukraine"
Детальніше читайте на УНІАН: http://www.unian.ua/politics/1023580-obama-povidomiv-scho-pidpisav-akt-na-pidtrimku-svobodi-v-ukrajini.html
http://www.unian.ua/politics/1023580-obama-povidomiv-scho-pidpisav-akt-na-pidtrimku-svobodi-v-ukrajini.html
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Its $ 350 million. Stripped down Abrams tanks cost $ 8m. Its peanuts. Body armor and helmets save lives. But in terms of what Ukraine has sacrificed and what Russia is giving its troops in Ukraine, it's a joke and a cruel one at that.
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But you know how it goes. As soon as you drive an Abrams off the lot the value goes down 1/3. ;)
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That is the used price.
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It is symbolic, and that is important too. It sends a message to the Kremlin, and Moscow must now wonder if more assistance will be forthcoming?
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The weakness of the West only provokes tyrants to further aggression. This is the lesson of Munich.
Mendy, you are a brave man. But now you must see those in Russia who support Putin or are indifferent to Putin as the same as Hitler's Germans. Certainly they share the same fate.
Only those that resisted Hitler like von Stauffenburg and the Widerstand as the true Germans just as the anti-Putin Opposition is the real Russia. They are Russia's hope.
Don't you agree?
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I've said many times that the West should saturate the media with videos, photos, etc. -evidence of Russian men and equipment in Ukraine. Also, I think it's important to post statements by separatist leaders, who often say they'd like to march all the way to the western borders. It's important that the world see these realities, in the context of aiding Ukraine.
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http://en.informnapalm.org/ has been doing a pretty good job of identifying the Muskovi army units in Ukraine.
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They will never admit it, but I believe that one of the reasons that GOOGLE is pulling units out of Russia stems from the enormous pressure to delete material, including material from YouTube, that runs counter to the Kremlin view on this conflict. There are groups who work for the Kremlin whose sole responsibility is the monitor the WWW and then quickly move to have a variety of responses available, and in many cases such material disappears.
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Muskovi! )))))
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JANUARY 06, 2015
NATO's Priority in 2015: Setting Up Reaction Force in Europe
With NATO officially out of combat operations in Afghanistan as of Jan. 1, the alliance's agenda is expected to be dominated by the new strategic realities in Europe conjured up by Moscow's annexation of Crimea and alleged proxy war in eastern Ukraine, and what the West should do in response. . . .
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/nato-s-priority-in-2015-setting-up-reaction-force-in-europe
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JANUARY 06, 2015
NATO's Priority in 2015: Setting Up Reaction Force in Europe
With NATO officially out of combat operations in Afghanistan as of Jan. 1, the alliance's agenda is expected to be dominated by the new strategic realities in Europe conjured up by Moscow's annexation of Crimea and alleged proxy war in eastern Ukraine, and what the West should do in response. . . .
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/nato-s-priority-in-2015-setting-up-reaction-force-in-europe (http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/nato-s-priority-in-2015-setting-up-reaction-force-in-europe)
the Dutch have already agreed to contributed 200 of their 250 soldiers to this.
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JANUARY 06, 2015
NATO's Priority in 2015: Setting Up Reaction Force in Europe
With NATO officially out of combat operations in Afghanistan as of Jan. 1, the alliance's agenda is expected to be dominated by the new strategic realities in Europe conjured up by Moscow's annexation of Crimea and alleged proxy war in eastern Ukraine, and what the West should do in response. . . .
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/nato-s-priority-in-2015-setting-up-reaction-force-in-europe
This is part of a larger strategy known as "tripwire". It supposes that even a multi nation rapid reaction force of what amounts to only one reinforced brigade will be enough to give Mr. Putin pause as engaging would invoke a full on Article 5 response or at least that's the theory.
What's significant is the wording in the NATO press release...
..."At their Wales Summit in September 2014, Allies agreed to create a spearhead within the NRF – a Very High Readiness Joint Task Force (VJTF), able to deploy at very short notice, particularly at the periphery of NATO’s territory. The VJTF should consist of a land component with appropriate air, maritime and Special Operations Forces available"...
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_49755.htm
"pe·riph·ery noun \pə-ˈri-f(ə-)rē\
: the outside edge of an area : the area that surrounds a place or thing"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/periphery
I've seen this phraseology/wording used in the past. It may become significant in the months ahead.
Brass
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This is part of a larger strategy known as "tripwire". It supposes that even a multi nation rapid reaction force of what amounts to only one reinforced brigade will be enough to give Mr. Putin pause as engaging would invoke a full on Article 5 response or at least that's the theory.
What's significant is the wording in the NATO press release...
..."At their Wales Summit in September 2014, Allies agreed to create a spearhead within the NRF – a Very High Readiness Joint Task Force (VJTF), able to deploy at very short notice, particularly at the periphery of NATO’s territory. The VJTF should consist of a land component with appropriate air, maritime and Special Operations Forces available"...
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_49755.htm
"pe·riph·ery noun \pə-ˈri-f(ə-)rē\
: the outside edge of an area : the area that surrounds a place or thing"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/periphery
I've seen this phraseology/wording used in the past. It may become significant in the months ahead.
Brass
Very interesting observation, thanks for pointing it out. Compare and contrast the language of Putin (I'm a madman with Nukes, don't mess with me! or The bear does what he wants on his tundra, and we consider Ukraine to be our Tundra!) to the measured but clearly escalating words of NATO. The pro-Russian bunch like to claim that the West is weak, and in some ways we have been, but we're getting there.
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This is a good link I found on facebook, the Defense Ministry of Ukraine. Although I can't read it without getting a poor translation from bing or Google, I do enjoy the pictures. :D
http://www.facebook.com/theministryofdefence.ua/photos/pcb.835865656475941/835865453142628/?type=1&theater
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This is part of a larger strategy known as "tripwire". It supposes that even a multi nation rapid reaction force of what amounts to only one reinforced brigade will be enough to give Mr. Putin pause as engaging would invoke a full on Article 5 response or at least that's the theory.
One little brigade will merely be a speed bump for 20 armored Russian divisions. NATO members made pact to come to each others aid in war. Isn't their promise to each other enough? Creating an extra brigade of troops to show Putin they mean business is a little silly. Even JayH's article said they still haven't determined who's going to pay for it. It's always a great idea until it has to be paid for. It's no secret most NATO members in Europe do not spend the required 2% of their GDP on defense spending. They expect America to do the security work. Putin understands most of those nations do not put money where their mouth is.
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One little brigade will merely be a speed bump for 20 armored Russian divisions. NATO members made pact to come to each others aid in war. Isn't their promise to each other enough? Creating an extra brigade of troops to show Putin they mean business is a little silly. Even JayH's article said they still haven't determined who's going to pay for it. It's always a great idea until it has to be paid for. It's no secret most NATO members in Europe do not spend the required 2% of their GDP on defense spending. They expect America to do the security work. Putin understands most of those nations do not put money where their mouth is.
20 armoured divisions? Really? Show me.
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One little brigade will merely be a speed bump for 20 armored Russian divisions. NATO members made pact to come to each others aid in war. Isn't their promise to each other enough? Creating an extra brigade of troops to show Putin they mean business is a little silly. Even JayH's article said they still haven't determined who's going to pay for it. It's always a great idea until it has to be paid for. It's no secret most NATO members in Europe do not spend the required 2% of their GDP on defense spending. They expect America to do the security work. Putin understands most of those nations do not put money where their mouth is.
Paying for it is never an issue Billy. There are always financiers and they always collect. There are people who will finance a war faster than you can get a $300 title loan
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BillyB,
These over-hyped Russian troops haven't done much good in Ukraine have they ?
They can't even take Donetsk airport against the poorly equipped Ukrainian troops..i'd call them useless myself.
They're about as effective as they were in Afghanistan.
If their troops are not getting shelled by their own side because they couldn't read a compass and got lost,their special forces elite are getting sent back to Russia in bodybags from Donetsk airport
One NATO brigade could probably wipe the floor with them .
No wonder Putin is asking for foreign soldiers to join the Russian troops lol.
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The one thing BillyB said that I agree with is that Ukraine needs help !!
Ukraine is currently mobilising another 200.000 into the military-- this is a very serious number of additional troops that will come online this year.
Now that there is a supply chain of basics happening some of the required pieces are on the way .I am not going to keep repeating the improved performance of Ukrainian miiitary over the course of last year-- sure they started from a low base--but as patriots have assumed positions of command they have proved to be an effective fighting force-- as Chelseaboy points out above.
Putin's boasts are/were just that--hollow and lacking substance--possible in theory but lacking the real life capability. It also overlooks the declining morale of the Russian troops-- and the increasing morale and dedication of Ukraine as a whole-- and specifically the improving morale of Ukrainian troops as they gain confidence.
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20 armoured divisions? Really? Show me.
Google is quite easy to use. Russia has over 15,000 tanks. An armored division usually has 300 tanks assigned to it. You may have read somewhere Russia has less than 20 armored divisions and that may be true in peacetime but in wartime nations will activate the inactive units.
http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=russia
These over-hyped Russian troops haven't done much good in Ukraine have they ?
No wonder Putin is asking for foreign soldiers to join the Russian troops lol.
It's easy to ridicule a person or nation you don't like but this is no laughing matter. Russia has the ability to take all of Eastern Europe in a short time if they wanted to and shatter the economies of Western Europe.
America already have brigades that are capable of travelling anywhere in the world within 24 hrs and engage in combat. These high speed rapid forces usually consist of paratroopers and light infantry. It's hard to transport heavy armor so quickly. Light infantry won't do much against heavy armor. If Putin decides to plow through Eastern Europe with dozens of armored divisions, Obama would be stupid to drop a few brigades of lightly equipped troops into a meat grinder. To meet NATO requirements, America will mobilize on Western European soil, get organized and begin attack only when at proper strength to dominate a fight. Poland and the Baltic nations realize this and that is why they are scared to death what Russia could do. They understand their world would be destroyed before fellow NATO members come to their rescue.
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Paying for it is never an issue Billy. There are always financiers and they always collect. There are people who will finance a war faster than you can get a $300 title loan
Who will pay? By far the cheapest way to correct Russia's behaviour is to assist Ukraine--read Soros article that covers a lot of common sense reasons why the EU and the west should be assisting Ukraine in every way.
My view is that Ukraine can resurrect it's economy based on going to war! The inflow of funds into the economy can provide the stimulous in a positive way as employment is created--in the miitary and in the support systems of industry surrounding it. Many defence based industries already are there-- expanding and using available expertise can be a cornerstone to improving the economy.
The flow on effect to the economy can be in substantial multiples of every dollar spent. They would not be the first country to have economic benefit from being at war!!
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17913.msg387585#msg387585
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/feb/05/new-policy-rescue-ukraine/
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It's easy to ridicule a person or nation you don't like but this is no laughing matter. Russia has the ability to take all of Eastern Europe in a short time if they wanted to and shatter the economies of Western Europe.
America already have brigades that are capable of travelling anywhere in the world within 24 hrs and engage in combat. These high speed rapid forces usually consist of paratroopers and light infantry. It's hard to transport heavy armor so quickly. Light infantry won't do much against heavy armor. If Putin decides to plow through Eastern Europe with dozens of armored divisions, Obama would be stupid to drop a few brigades of lightly equipped troops into a meat grinder. To meet NATO requirements, America will mobilize on Western European soil, get organized and begin attack only when at proper strength to dominate a fight. Poland and the Baltic nations realize this and that is why they are scared to death what Russia could do. They understand their world would be destroyed before fellow NATO members come to their rescue.
If Russia rolled in to that extent--the US and Nato would respond--that is my scenario of geographically limited total war( short of global nuclear). If that happened-- the western forces(via US) would not need one piece of ground armour to destroy EVERY Russian piece .
Given western air cover & support,intelligence,logistics,weaponary -Ukrainian forces would wipe the floor with the Russians and humiliate them.
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Google is quite easy to use. Russia has over 15,000 tanks. An armored division usually has 300 tanks assigned to it. You may have read somewhere Russia has less than 20 armored divisions and that may be true in peacetime but in wartime nations will activate the inactive units.
http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=russia
Google it?
ahhh ok.
I don't think we have much to worry about . . . MAYBE I am wrong but no
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Who will pay? By far the cheapest way to correct Russia's behaviour is to assist Ukraine--read Soros article that covers a lot of common sense reasons why the EU and the west should be assisting Ukraine in every way.
My view is that Ukraine can resurrect it's economy based on going to war! The inflow of funds into the economy can provide the stimulous in a positive way as employment is created--in the miitary and in the support systems of industry surrounding it. Many defence based industries already are there-- expanding and using available expertise can be a cornerstone to improving the economy.
The flow on effect to the economy can be in substantial multiples of every dollar spent. They would not be the first country to have economic benefit from being at war!!
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17913.msg387585#msg387585
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/feb/05/new-policy-rescue-ukraine/
Soros is only asking for $ 50 B. It will need A LOT more . . .
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Given western air cover & support,intelligence,logistics,weaponary -Ukrainian forces would wipe the floor with the Russians and humiliate them.
Dreaming again! :ROFL:
Fathertime!
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ahhh OK FT . . .
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Who will pay? By far the cheapest way to correct Russia's behaviour is to assist Ukraine--read Soros article that covers a lot of common sense reasons why the EU and the west should be assisting Ukraine in every way.
My view is that Ukraine can resurrect it's economy based on going to war! The inflow of funds into the economy can provide the stimulous in a positive way as employment is created--in the miitary and in the support systems of industry surrounding it. Many defence based industries already are there-- expanding and using available expertise can be a cornerstone to improving the economy.
The flow on effect to the economy can be in substantial multiples of every dollar spent. They would not be the first country to have economic benefit from being at war!!
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17913.msg387585#msg387585
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2015/feb/05/new-policy-rescue-ukraine/
They don't pay, they finance. Take your pick of any of the international banks. Likely you carry a credit card from one or two, Rockefellers, de Rothschilds, a Russian oligarch, the Chinese has a few anxious to do business.
Where do you think that money would come from for a war reviving an economy, appeared from thin air? I really don't get your eagerness to spill blood to revive an economy though. But I guess it's alright as long as it isn't your blood?
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They don't pay, they finance. Take your pick of any of the international banks. Likely you carry a credit card from one or two, Rockefellers, de Rothschilds, a Russian oligarch, the Chinese has a few anxious to do business.
Where do you think that money would come from for a war reviving an economy, appeared from thin air? I really don't get your eagerness to spill blood to revive an economy though. But I guess it's alright as long as it isn't your blood?
Not eager to see any Ukrainian blood spilt at all-- when you can arrange for removal/withdrawl of Russia from Ukrainian territory without it--let me know!
Where will the money come from-- actually read the link--Soros has a few ideas and suggestions.
Ukraine has multi facetted series of problems to solve-potential solutions need to be inter connected-- as I outlined they can be.
The bottom line-- it would be a lot cheaper for the west generally-- to assist Ukraine in every way-- than having to fight Russia in another sphere.
QUOTING SOROS
"Europe needs to wake up and recognize that it is under attack from Russia. Assisting Ukraine should also be considered as a defense expenditure by the EU countries. Framed this way, the amounts currently contemplated shrink into insignificance. If the international authorities fail to come up with an impressive assistance program in response to an aggressive Ukrainian reform program, the new Ukraine will probably fail, Europe will be left on its own to defend itself against Russian aggression, and Europe will have abandoned the values and principles on which the European Union was founded. That would be an irreparable loss."
End Quote
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Not eager to see any Ukrainian blood spilt at all-- when you can arrange for removal/withdrawl of Russia from Ukrainian territory without it--let me know!
Where will the money come from-- actually read the link--Soros has a few ideas and suggestions.
Ukraine has multi facetted series of problems to solve-potential solutions need to be inter connected-- as I outlined they can be.
The bottom line-- it would be a lot cheaper for the west generally-- to assist Ukraine in every way-- than having to fight Russia in another sphere.
QUOTING SOROS
"Europe needs to wake up and recognize that it is under attack from Russia. Assisting Ukraine should also be considered as a defense expenditure by the EU countries. Framed this way, the amounts currently contemplated shrink into insignificance. If the international authorities fail to come up with an impressive assistance program in response to an aggressive Ukrainian reform program, the new Ukraine will probably fail, Europe will be left on its own to defend itself against Russian aggression, and Europe will have abandoned the values and principles on which the European Union was founded. That would be an irreparable loss."
End Quote
That's all well and good but the only problem that Ukraine has that can solved by war and that's no given is it's Russia problem. War should definitely be the last resort not the first. A war while a shot in the arm to an economy is only artificial. Ukraine has a GDP and national debt problem with a stagnant economy. After the war even if Ukraine won the problems would not only remain but be compounded and many Ukrainians dead. Be careful what you ask for
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He's right. I personally don't even want their bastards dying. Their bastards wouldn't be over there if even bigger bastards didn't put them there. The economic choke hold is working. I will credit the Saudis for it unless someone can prove to me that the Great Pretender is responsible then I will go where Reggie Love and hundreds of gay men have gone and kiss his a$$.
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FP-- one of the future keys to improving Ukrainian economy can be the multiplier effect of incoming funds-that can be in excess of 10 times as the money goes around in the economy. EG-- not much point in handing oligarchs the money where they can pocket 90% and effectively take it out of the economy-- whereas if it is used to create jobs and more jobs as it gets 100% spent repeatedly it is possible to improve the economy.
If a lot of those jobs are initially created in paying military personal, in factories manufacturing and maintaining the war machine etc etc--the flow on to smaller suppliers spreads the money far and wide-- and creates the possibility to finance less war based industries.
Ukraine already has considerable underused capacity to make military hardware-- and aerospace -- a lot was interconnected with Russia previously-- and now that avenue is closed there is the opportunity to fill that void and manufacture in Ukraine. That could be interacted with the EU itself in the new arrangements-- so many possibilities are there.
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FP-- one of the future keys to improving Ukrainian economy can be the multiplier effect of incoming funds-that can be in excess of 10 times as the money goes around in the economy. EG-- not much point in handing oligarchs the money where they can pocket 90% and effectively take it out of the economy-- whereas if it is used to create jobs and more jobs as it gets 100% spent repeatedly it is possible to improve the economy.
If a lot of those jobs are initially created in paying military personal, in factories manufacturing and maintaining the war machine etc etc--the flow on to smaller suppliers spreads the money far and wide-- and creates the possibility to finance less war based industries.
Ukraine already has considerable underused capacity to make military hardware-- and aerospace -- a lot was interconnected with Russia previously-- and now that avenue is closed there is the opportunity to fill that void and manufacture in Ukraine. That could be interacted with the EU itself in the new arrangements-- so many possibilities are there.
please explain
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He's right. I personally don't even want their bastards dying. Their bastards wouldn't be over there if even bigger bastards didn't put them there. The economic choke hold is working. I will credit the Saudis for it unless someone can prove to me that the Great Pretender is responsible then I will go where Reggie Love and hundreds of gay men have gone and kiss his a$$.
History will prove my case on that-I am in no doubt.My view is that he has handled this well--given all the complexities of the situation. I give credit to all of his administration on this. Now they are in moving to a more overt support of Ukraine phase- softly softly!!
Have faith LT-right will overcome-eventually!!
The sanctions are important-very important as has been all the economic attack--BUT-- Putin & Russia are not rational . They are more likely to expand the militarism in the face of defeat rather than concede.Getting rid of Putin could see a bigger madman get control- so being prepared for a worse case scenario is logical.
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I would still like you to explain your previous post if you can.
I agree with you that the Kremlin is nuttier than the vegan stool. But wars are very expensive and I question their capacity to wage war. I don't believe Putin will last very much longer in Russia. His ouster could give us a Strelkov or Rogozin, but then it would be Sidney Reilly's wet dream who would rule Russia after that. I believe Russia must be partitioned and divided and that Moscow and Lenningrad be separated from these new states or protectorates. I do not see American or even Western European powers participating in this at all. But that it must happen. As a precondition of their recognition they must disarm. That is the only way we can assure ourselves that the Soviet Union will never reemerge.
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FP-- one of the future keys to improving Ukrainian economy can be the multiplier effect of incoming funds-that can be in excess of 10 times as the money goes around in the economy. EG-- not much point in handing oligarchs the money where they can pocket 90% and effectively take it out of the economy-- whereas if it is used to create jobs and more jobs as it gets 100% spent repeatedly it is possible to improve the economy.
If a lot of those jobs are initially created in paying military personal, in factories manufacturing and maintaining the war machine etc etc--the flow on to smaller suppliers spreads the money far and wide-- and creates the possibility to finance less war based industries.
Ukraine already has considerable underused capacity to make military hardware-- and aerospace -- a lot was interconnected with Russia previously-- and now that avenue is closed there is the opportunity to fill that void and manufacture in Ukraine. That could be interacted with the EU itself in the new arrangements-- so many possibilities are there.
JayH you're missing the entire point here guy. You say 10 times (I think it's more like 7 but no matter) where do you think each one of those Grivnas are coming from? It is borrowed money and all of it plus goes back to the lender. That money generates war effort, war machine and war profiteers, little else. War isn't the answer, it's a desperate last resort
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JayH you're missing the entire point here guy. You say 10 times (I think it's more like 7 but no matter) where do you think each one of those Grivnas are coming from? It is borrowed money and all of it plus goes back to the lender. That money generates war effort, war machine and war profiteers, little else. War isn't the answer, it's a desperate last resort
I am not being glib here--but they are already confronted with a war not of their own making. The potential for a much bigger war is right now in front of them.
From the EU perspective-Ukraine is in the frontline for what could be a widened assault--either overtly or by stealth-- at the very least it will require increased spending by EU and Nato countries to allow them to feel comfortable.
Confronting Russia now while they are already involved in military action can set a new agenda. A successful Ukraine-- both militarily and economically will be the catalyst for Russian internal reform.Given that--the potential for great instability in the region is real.
With Nato and EU countries faced with a potential out of control Russia-- spending money on assisting Ukraine now is a lot cheaper option than all the Nato countries upgrading to meet the new threat-that's the point-- and that is where the money can come from.
Not all this money would be in repayable loans.
A more stable Ukraine with a more assured future -could start to attract the investment capital to seed the growth. ( see Soros comments)
It is a combination of capital inflow that if considered in an overall situation you can start to see what is possible. I have commented all along that because of Russia-- Ukraine will get far more help to create a new Ukraine than they would have-- and current events are bearing that idea out.
For the record-- with so much unemployment,underemployment,wages below a living wage-- the multiplier of creating employment and paying better would be at conservative estimate of 10-- closer to twice your 7 in a economy and situation Ukraine is in today.
MORE SOROS QUOTE--
"Putin’s ambition to recreate a Russian empire has unintentionally helped bring into being a new Ukraine that is opposed to Russia and seeks to become the opposite of the old Ukraine with its endemic corruption and ineffective government. The new Ukraine is led by the cream of civil society: young people, many of whom studied abroad and refused to join either government or business on their return because they found both of them repugnant. Many of them found their place in academic institutions, think tanks, and nongovernmental organizations. A widespread volunteer movement, of unprecedented scope and power unseen in other countries, has helped Ukraine to stand strong against Russian aggression. Its members were willing to risk their lives on the Maidan for the sake of a better future and they are determined not to repeat the mistakes of the past, including the political infighting that undermined the Orange Revolution. A politically engaged civil society is the best assurance against a return of the old Ukraine: activists would return to the Maidan if the politicians engaged in the kind of petty squabbling and corruption that ruined the old Ukraine.
The reformists in the new Ukrainian government are advocating a radical “big bang” reform program that is intended to have a dramatic impact. This program aims to break the stranglehold of corruption by shrinking the bureaucracy while paying the remaining civil servants better"
END QUOTE
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BillyB--this is for you !! And all the other nay sayers-- read it and get updated-it reflects the reality--it is Russia in trouble now-- and that is on the battlefield-let alone an economy on the brink of collapse !!
QUOTE
"Although the Ukrainian military is now the largest, combat-ready force in Europe and observers marvel at its performance, the battlefield is still terribly uneven. Ukrainians are desperately short of advanced armaments, anti-tank and anti-armor guided missiles, aerial support, and real time intelligence"
END QUOTE
Take Note-- more writers are getting a much better grip on what is really going on--these are CURRENT views and not conceived in previous eras . Events have moved very fast and constantly changed over this last 15 months-- and I can see constant movement in the immediate future.
There are lot's of good quotes in the following story-- I have included a small summary--
How Russia lost the war
What bunglers Russian President Vladimir Putin and his Kremlin cronies must be! Crimea, with its sunny beaches and citrus groves, fell like manna from heaven into their hands…simply because there was no push back. The old, discredited, Ukrainian regime fled after reducing Ukraine’s combat -ready troops to the size of Slovenia’s. The new government was in disarray. Putin’s billion-dollar propaganda machine was primed and loaded with volleys of smears. Ukraine’s budget was tens of billions in the red and the nation’s gas lifeline cut off. Everything was going their way. And then the problems started.
They came up against Ukrainians…not the “faux” type who applaud Russian entertainers bad-mouthing Ukraine; or who wear embroidered shirts but are ashamed to use their native language ….but real Ukrainians. The kind that picked up Soviet-era AK-47s, wrapped some black bread and cured fatback in improvised backpacks, and took off for the front. The kind that knew that the “front” was wherever foreigners and their supporters were desecrating his native land and abusing his compatriots. And these largely untrained and unequipped volunteer citizen - soldiers fought Putin’s forces to a standstill.
http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/george-woloshyn-how-russia-lost-the-war-376920.html
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With NATO officially out of combat operations in Afghanistan as of Jan. 1, the alliance's agenda is expected to be dominated by the new strategic realities in Europe conjured up by Moscow's annexation of Crimea and alleged proxy war in eastern Ukraine, and what the West should do in response. . . .
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/nato-s-priority-in-2015-setting-up-reaction-force-in-europe
Hey Jay, I want to come back to this article. While NATO nations are figuring out if they will create a rapid response brigade and who's going to pay for it, Obama is downsizing our forces in Europe as we speak. These reductions in force in Europe and at home will happen over the next decade. This is not a surprise since most of us knew one of Obama's goals was to reduce our military force during his presidency. The policy may change if America votes in a president that thinks differently but that will be a few more years down the road. I understand you are looking for articles showing the West is making stronger moves to back Ukraine but don't ignore the other truth. Obama is pulling troops out of Europe and that sends the wrong message to Putin who is making his military stronger. Many of the guys at the forum are pulling for Ukraine's freedom. We are in the minority. Most of our fellow citizens don't identify with Ukrainians and aren't as eager to spend money and shed blood to help them. Our politicians realize this and most likely will act accordingly to what the majority wants. While Putin is on Winter break, you can be sure he's trying to figure out what he can and can't get away with before making his next move. The West's message to Putin isn't as strong as you want to believe. I hope Europe invests more into their security while we reduce our role to protect them.
http://news.yahoo.com/facing-shrinking-budgets-pentagon-moves-cut-european-bases-131430270.html
War should definitely be the last resort not the first. A war while a shot in the arm to an economy is only artificial.
WW2 helped propel America and Russia into superpowers. It's amazing how Russia came so close to losing with massive destruction to their infrastructure and exit the war as a superpower. Putin is aware of history showing with the right moves, a nation can emerge stronger after a war. He will factor the odds of that happening into his decisions.
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BB--keep watching the news on what future US moves will be--near enough the opposite of a withdrawal!In effect--it will be more specific in intent but masked as more general !
Try this QUOTE--
"Europe and the U.S., for their part, should not –under any circumstance- allow Putin to come out ahead or even break even. He started a world crisis without right, reason, and remorse, and now Ukraine and the civilized world must end it. Any compromise will be seen by him as a victory, and the world will have to face him again in the future. He must not be allowed to snatch victory out of the jaws of defeat."
END QUOTE
http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/george-woloshyn-how-russia-lost-the-war-376920.html
The guy making these comments-
George Woloshyn worked in the administration of U.S. President Ronald Reagan. He is a former naval intelligence commander and former director of U.S. National Security Preparedness and a former director of the U.S. Office of Personnel Security Investigations.
There is a good understanding in Washington of the issues at stake in Ukraine-- many influential and knowledgeable are on similar themes now . Note-- a lot of these writings are running behind what has happened or is happening now.
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BB--keep watching the news....
Most news sources in America don't put the problems in Ukraine and Putin's antics on the front page anymore. Readers are getting bored and care less about what is happening over there. France's president is publically calling on reversing the sanctions instead of increasing them. A showing of strength through unity among Western nations is falling apart. If by chance Western nations help Ukraine on a large scale, it'll be done for our own interests, not because we care about Ukrainians.
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F-35s to Replace Troops in Europe as Russia Deterrent
The Pentagon announced Thursday, Jan. 8, that as part of its response to Russian aggression, it would dispatch two squadrons of next-generation fighter jets to the United Kingdom to replace military personnel currently being withdrawn.
The shift is part of the $985 million “European Reassurance Initiative,” the Obama administration’s effort to bolster European militaries in the wake of Russia’s annexation of the Crimean peninsula in March.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/01/08/f-35s-to-replace-troops-in-europe-as-russia-deterrent/?wp_login_redirect=0
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History will prove my case on that-I am in no doubt.My view is that he has handled this well--given all the complexities of the situation. I give credit to all of his administration on this. Now they are in moving to a more overt support of Ukraine phase- softly softly!!
Have faith LT-right will overcome-eventually!!
The sanctions are important-very important as has been all the economic attack--BUT-- Putin & Russia are not rational . They are more likely to expand the militarism in the face of defeat rather than concede.Getting rid of Putin could see a bigger madman get control- so being prepared for a worse case scenario is logical.
You go from claiming the Ukrainians can beat Putins military to this? You are all over the map. Billy is correct that if Putin wanted to he could steamroll tanks quickly across E. Europe. Hopefully it will never come to that, as currently the USA and Nato are not prepared. Poland and the Baltics are correct to fear the Bear, they know from the past what kind of atrocities the Russians (ie the Soviets which IMO are one and the same) are capable of.
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Not eager to see any Ukrainian blood spilt at all-- when you can arrange for removal/withdrawl of Russia from Ukrainian territory without it--let me know!
Where will the money come from-- actually read the link--Soros has a few ideas and suggestions.
Ukraine has multi facetted series of problems to solve-potential solutions need to be inter connected-- as I outlined they can be.
The bottom line-- it would be a lot cheaper for the west generally-- to assist Ukraine in every way-- than having to fight Russia in another sphere.
QUOTING SOROS
"Europe needs to wake up and recognize that it is under attack from Russia. Assisting Ukraine should also be considered as a defense expenditure by the EU countries. Framed this way, the amounts currently contemplated shrink into insignificance. If the international authorities fail to come up with an impressive assistance program in response to an aggressive Ukrainian reform program, the new Ukraine will probably fail, Europe will be left on its own to defend itself against Russian aggression, and Europe will have abandoned the values and principles on which the European Union was founded. That would be an irreparable loss."
End Quote
I posted a link to the Soros article you are quoting a month ago. However the more I look into Soros the more uneasy I get. I am beginning to think that Ukraine might be better doing a deal with Putin then borrowing money from Soros or any of his desired bankers. There are strings attached to this guy and he is known as an amoral blood sucking vampire of economies and countries around the World. Much more research needs to be done about what his endgame and true intentions are.
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F-35s to Replace Troops in Europe as Russia Deterrent
The Pentagon announced Thursday, Jan. 8, that as part of its response to Russian aggression, it would dispatch two squadrons of next-generation fighter jets to the United Kingdom to replace military personnel currently being withdrawn.
The shift is part of the $985 million “European Reassurance Initiative,” the Obama administration’s effort to bolster European militaries in the wake of Russia’s annexation of the Crimean peninsula in March.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/01/08/f-35s-to-replace-troops-in-europe-as-russia-deterrent/?wp_login_redirect=0
Aircraft will never replace troops on the ground. Our bombing campaign against ISIS is quickly proving this.
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he is known as an amoral blood sucking vampire of economies and countries around the World.
AND those are his good points!
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AND those are his good points!
Scary stuff. Word is that he is the lunatic who changed the Democratic party from being a decent party that supported blue collar working class people into the crazy nut jobs that they are today. He is allegedly somehow responsible for an unknown community organizer from Chicago without any business or military experience becoming President. He hates America and American values and wants to install a "new world order" with one government for the entire World. What better person to choose than a Muslim Marxist? He supports all sorts of lunatic fringe type of stuff. I really don't know about this guy...what is he up to in Ukraine?
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What ever plans he has will be good for him alone.
Not Ukraine.
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One little brigade will merely be a speed bump for 20 armored Russian divisions. NATO members made pact to come to each others aid in war. Isn't their promise to each other enough? Creating an extra brigade of troops to show Putin they mean business is a little silly. Even JayH's article said they still haven't determined who's going to pay for it. It's always a great idea until it has to be paid for. It's no secret most NATO members in Europe do not spend the required 2% of their GDP on defense spending. They expect America to do the security work. Putin understands most of those nations do not put money where their mouth is.
Russians don't employ 'armored divisions' they employ two types of tank brigades (heavy and medium).
The NATO brigade is touted as a 'tip of the spear' formation. It's not being formed to show Putin NATO mean business as much as to reassure it's less capable members and create a 'tripwire' type response to any potential use by Russia of military force presumably against a NATO country. I'd assume the idea would be deployment before invasion.
I agree with your comments regarding who's paying the bill. Every time there is an increase in military expenditure with NATO or otherwise, the question of who's footing the bill is the first question raised, U.S., Canada, U.K, Germany, doesn't matter, the same questions gets asked in the media and respective governments.
Google is quite easy to use. Russia has over 15,000 tanks. An armored division usually has 300 tanks assigned to it. You may have read somewhere Russia has less than 20 armored divisions and that may be true in peacetime but in wartime nations will activate the inactive units.
http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=russia
I don't know where Global got that figure from but it's outlandishly inflated. The Russians have no more than 2000 T-90 MTBs and maybe twice that in modernized soviet era T-72s, T-80s and some other lesser known models. They have nowhere near 15,000 tanks combat ready or otherwise at there disposal.
Granted this wont make a difference for East European countries with similar equipment but for NATO forces it's the T-90 that's the concern.
If anyone's interested this article gives a pretty good overview of how the Russian land forces are organized...
http://www.rusi.org/publications/newsbrief/ref:A5331667D996C4/#.VK_rwul0zMw
This article gives a critical estimate of Russia's capabilities as opposed to the media hysteria surrounding same...
http://russiamil.wordpress.com/2014/03/31/how-not-to-do-maps-of-military-strength/
This webpage gives a detailed description/history of the T-90 MTB itself...
http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=161
It's easy to ridicule a person or nation you don't like but this is no laughing matter. Russia has the ability to take all of Eastern Europe in a short time if they wanted to and shatter the economies of Western Europe.
America already have brigades that are capable of travelling anywhere in the world within 24 hrs and engage in combat. These high speed rapid forces usually consist of paratroopers and light infantry. It's hard to transport heavy armor so quickly. Light infantry won't do much against heavy armor. If Putin decides to plow through Eastern Europe with dozens of armored divisions, Obama would be stupid to drop a few brigades of lightly equipped troops into a meat grinder. To meet NATO requirements, America will mobilize on Western European soil, get organized and begin attack only when at proper strength to dominate a fight. Poland and the Baltic nations realize this and that is why they are scared to death what Russia could do. They understand their world would be destroyed before fellow NATO members come to their rescue.
Parts of Eastern Europe maybe but not all and I highly doubt Russia could shatter the economies of Western Europe. Germany is the European economic powerhouse not Russia.
Agreed for the most part to your Para 2 regarding mobilizing. What needs to be considered is in this day and age you can't mobilize large combat formations with the associated supply trains and rear echelons without it being known worldwide.
Russia was able to concentrate large formations for the invasions Georgia and Ukraine under the guise of 'large military (district) exercises in the past. That excuse wouldn't fly with NATO now. Any further concentrations would Alert NATO and they'd mobilize accordingly, probably in lock step with the Russian concentration.
In other words it wouldn't be a case of being caught off guard if Russia were to attempt a military incursion of a NATO country. They might get through the front door initially but would be sent packing soon enough.
Poland is not scared to death of Russia. Poland may well be the spark that lights the fire...I personally think they view this latest Russian era of aggression as an opportunity for some payback but that aside here's a critical view of Poland's preparedness...
http://20committee.com/2014/10/30/poland-prepares-for-russian-invasion/
They may not be a superpower but Poland's seen this coming for a long time.
Brass
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Poland is not scared to death of Russia.... here's a critical view of Poland's preparedness...
http://20committee.com/2014/10/30/poland-prepares-for-russian-invasion/
They may not be a superpower but Poland's seen this coming for a long time.
Your link quotes the Polish military who are not too kind about Obama:
“I didn’t need the Beltway media to tell me who the real chickenshit is.” “They really have no idea what they are doing,” he opined about Obama and his national security staff, “and we know it. You have no idea how many promises we’ve been given, even by the President himself, but there’s never any follow-up, it’s all talk. He thinks he’s on Oprah.” When I asked if he thought America would come to Poland’s aid in a crisis, he said laconically, “I’d flip a coin.”
In a similar vein, a senior Polish intelligence official, another veteran of long collaboration with Washington, DC, expressed his skepticism to me. “Is it 1939 again? I don’t know,” he explained, “but I think Obama isn’t even a Chamberlain,”
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Poland is not scared to death of Russia. Poland may well be the spark that lights the fire...I personally think they view this latest Russian era of aggression as an opportunity for some payback but that aside here's a critical view of Poland's preparedness...
http://20committee.com/2014/10/30/poland-prepares-for-russian-invasion/
Poland may not be scared of Russia but they're also not there yet. Most telling about the article is their deep concern about the Obama administrations words without actions, in fact he puts it simply that as an ally they expect the President to keep his promises when in reality the US President behaves like he's on Oprah -- all show and no go. Talk is cheap in this part of the World, actions matter much more.
excerpt
"When it comes to conventional defense, however, the news from Poland appears less rosy. Despite the fact that no one questions the basic competence of the Polish armed forces, nor the impressiveness of their current defense acquisition program, there is a matter of size. The recent MoD announcement that it is moving thousands of troops closer to the country’s borders with Belarus and Ukraine, where any threat would emerge, is encouraging but not sufficient (thanks to the Cold War, when Poland’s Communist military was directed westward, most of its major military bases are closer to Germany than the East). Since the abandonment of conscription five years ago, a cumbersome process that caused readiness problems for some time, Warsaw’s armed forces come to only 120,000 active duty troops, with less than 48,000 in the ground forces (i.e. the army). That number is insufficient to man the army’s structure of three divisions with thirteen maneuver brigades (ten of them armored or mechanized).
A solution to this manpower shortfall was supposed to be found in the establishment of the National Reserve Forces (NSR), with 20,000 fully trained part-time volunteers who would flesh out the order of battle in a crisis. Yet the NSR, which was announced by the MoD five years ago with much fanfare, has had considerable teething problems, with shortages of recruits and inadequate training budgets. Recent reports indicate both morale and readiness are low among NSR soldiers, who feel poorly treated by the regular military, while none dispute that the force has only recruited and trained 10,000 troops, half the target figure."
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Your link quotes the Polish military who are not too kind about Obama:
No, they're not. :P
I tend to think (government diplomacy aside) that most Western (NATO) military people/organizations have a similar views of the President. I belong to two veterans organizations and hear similar assessments (Beer talk) even in Canada.
The pertinent question is do the Russians believe it. :D
Brass
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No, they're not. :P
I tend to think (government diplomacy aside) that most Western (NATO) military people/organizations have a similar views of the President. I belong to two veterans organizations and hear similar assessments (Beer talk) even in Canada.
The pertinent question is do the Russians believe it. :D
Brass
That's a huge part of the problem. The Russians know he's a weak man with no spine. So do the Chinese, the Iranians and all our other enemies. A red line in the sand comes to mind.
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Chinese are enemies to who?
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The concern show what is known of Poland and the Baltics. Theay are ready to build their army and put weapons. Just not on their own money.
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Chinese are enemies to who?
Wu was the leader of China.
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The concern show what is known of Poland and the Baltics. They are ready to build their army and put weapons. Just not on their own money.
Poland spends more than the required 2% for a Nato member, so you are wrong about them.
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That's a huge part of the problem. The Russians know he's a weak man with no spine. So do the Chinese, the Iranians and all our other enemies. A red line in the sand comes to mind.
Just because you wake up every morning and wish it true doesn't make it true. Keep that in mind.
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Wu was the leader of China.
Fun is my Chinese neighbor's middle name!
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Fun is my Chinese neighbor's middle name!
Ah, Wong Hun Lo's cousin.
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Just because you wake up every morning and wish it true doesn't make it true. Keep that in mind.
Stop watching cartoons with your kid and read the article about what a Polish officer, our ally in E. Europe says about Obama. And he is only one guy. Still in denial that Jonathan Gruber was an architect of "Obamacare" as well? Have some sugar with that denial.
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Chinese are enemies to who?
Most directly to the Russian Federation. Too bad you might not be alive in 50 years or so when they reclaim most of the Russian Far East under the assumption that they need to protect "ethnic Chinese speakers".
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Poland spends more than the required 2% for a Nato member, so you are wrong about them.
Then why do they need Obama to give them money for building bases?
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Poland may not be scared of Russia but they're also not there yet. Most telling about the article is their deep concern about the Obama administrations words without actions, in fact he puts it simply that as an ally they expect the President to keep his promises when in reality the US President behaves like he's on Oprah -- all show and no go. Talk is cheap in this part of the World, actions matter much more.
Indeed. Another way to look at it though is, is any country truly ever prepared to 'jump off' on short notice. I take you back to desert shield then storm (9 months prep). I'd envision at least three months prep in Europe to mobilize an effective NATO response as well.
However, I personally don't think Russia's 'there' either despite media hype to the contrary. Not for a full scale invasion of Eastern Europe with any hope of holding their gains, anyway.
We're going to be aware of any Russian troop concentration and will be able to monitor same. Right now (contrary to Putin's bluster, over flights, etc.) this is the West's biggest asset.
Brass
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Stop watching cartoons with your kid and read the article about what a Polish officer, our ally in E. Europe says about Obama. And he is only one guy. Still in denial that Jonathan Gruber was an architect of "Obamacare" as well? Have some sugar with that denial.
You're so sweet.
A Polish officer can say whatever he wants. I'd be more interested in what Ms. Kopacz had to say about the Nigr.
As far as I'm concerned there are many in Europe and on this side of the pond who remember very fondly Poland's adventurism.
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Then why do they need Obama to give them money for building bases?
I did not read that they wanted money, I read that they wanted some American tank brigades to be stationed in Poland. It will happen in 2017 when we have a real President again, instead of an imposter.
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I did not read that they wanted money, I read that they wanted some American tank brigades to be stationed in Poland. It will happen in 2017 when we have a real President again, instead of an imposter.
So are you saying that the Nigr fabricated over 300 electoral votes?
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I guess this is the only country in the world where 49% constitutes a majority.
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Actually, as soon as Russia launched on Ukraine, I would have gone in and put up the missile shield in Poland. Such an emphatic statement would have stopped Putin in his boots.
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I did not read that they wanted money, I read that they wanted some American tank brigades to be stationed in Poland. It will happen in 2017 when we have a real President again, instead of an imposter.
And do you think that Poland will not be paid for that?
A number of years back Poland had interest in MATO bases, until it became clear that NATO would not pay them for holdingthe bases on Polish territory. then the interes dwindled.
One of the few countries that can compete with the Dutch in tradesmanship are the Polish. In the 80's people from Holland were sending clothes and other goods to Poland to help the poor ex-communists. These were gladly received... to be sold on Austrian and German flea markets. Standing in Vienna you could see Polish traders with Dutch goods.
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Actually, as soon as Russia launched on Ukraine, I would have gone in and put up the missile shield in Poland. Such an emphatic statement would have stopped Putin in his boots.
Yep, but I still maintain Putin has been the opportunist and taken advantage of a weak President. Ukraine wouldn't have happened as it did in the first place if a stronger President had been in office.
We witnessed a perfect storm of initial dithering by the EU, NATO and the U.S. (as the de facto world leader).
Brass
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I guess this is the only country in the world where 49% constitutes a majority.
I wonder why you keep trying to direct your weak arguments at me? Try directing them at poster Brass. I'm not interested in your whining. Maybe he will humor you.
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I guess this is the only country in the world where 49% constitutes a majority.
It did in Bush V. Gore.
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And do you think that Poland will not be paid for that?
A number of years back Poland had interest in MATO bases, until it became clear that NATO would not pay them for holdingthe bases on Polish territory. then the interes dwindled.
One of the few countries that can compete with the Dutch in tradesmanship are the Polish. In the 80's people from Holland were sending clothes and other goods to Poland to help the poor ex-communists. These were gladly received... to be sold on Austrian and German flea markets. Standing in Vienna you could see Polish traders with Dutch goods.
I don't have any argument with you about that. I only mentioned that they are spending slightly more than the required 2%. Hopefully they will change their ways in the interest of defense. Either way look for what they want (American tank brigades in Poland) to happen in 2017 when we have a Republican President.
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Yep, but I still maintain Putin has been the opportunist and taken advantage of a weak President. Ukraine wouldn't have happened as it did in the first place if a stronger President had been in office.
We witnessed a perfect storm of initial dithering by the EU, NATO and the U.S. (as the de facto world leader).
Brass
Look Muzh, fresh bait!! (or is it somehow personal with you?)
:popcorn:
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Look Muzh, fresh bait!! (or is it somehow personal with you?)
:popcorn:
Muzh and I are buddies. We don't argue unless it involves potential police raids in his neighborhood. ;D
Brass
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I will let the Poles get the last word on this matter: (previously mentioned by Gator but not bolded)
Quote
“I didn’t need the Beltway media to tell me who the real chickenshit is.” “They really have no idea what they are doing,” he opined about Obama and his national security staff, “and we know it. You have no idea how many promises we’ve been given, even by the President himself, but there’s never any follow-up, it’s all talk. He thinks he’s on Oprah.” When I asked if he thought America would come to Poland’s aid in a crisis, he said laconically, “I’d flip a coin.”
In a similar vein, a senior Polish intelligence official, another veteran of long collaboration with Washington, DC, expressed his skepticism to me. “Is it 1939 again? I don’t know,” he explained, “but I think Obama isn’t even a Chamberlain"
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I don't have any argument with you about that. I only mentioned that they are spending slightly more than the required 2%. Hopefully they will change their ways in the interest of defense. Either way look for what they want (American tank brigades in Poland) to happen in 2017 when we have a Republican President.
Not if russia has joined the EU.
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By 2017?? Fat Chance it'd happen by 3017!
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Not if russia has joined the EU.
With Mr. Putin as President?
:ROFL:
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Hey Jay, I want to come back to this article. . . . Putin who is making his military stronger. . . .
With what money? In Rubles?
In the summer, the Russian President was paying Chechen mercs $ 300 a day. I don't think that is do-able which is prolly why he is begging Central Asian migrant workers to fight the war he started.
You have to pay the joes, Billy B.
Those Joes will turn their guns on their officers if they don't get paid. It will be like 1941 all over again. Except this time it will be Ukrainian military and they will be nicer than the Nazis because they will treat the conquered population like brothers. The invasion of Moscow is happening maybe as early as this summer especially when the Ruskies are trading Rubles for Grivna.
Tell us again about those 20 armored divisions.
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Yep, but I still maintain Putin has been the opportunist and taken advantage of a weak President. Ukraine wouldn't have happened as it did in the first place if a stronger President had been in office.
We witnessed a perfect storm of initial dithering by the EU, NATO and the U.S. (as the de facto world leader).
Brass
Brass Bud, with all due respect, a US show of force would have been exactly what Putler was waiting for and who knows what would have happened. THIS issue is still a European issue. The moment the US would have gotten involved, Putler would have won.
Proof?
Look at the rantings from the European ultra-right claiming this is a US-led takeover of Ukraine. No matter what you say stating the opposite, the US DID this.
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Look Muzh, fresh bait!! (or is it somehow personal with you?)
:popcorn:
Pero que infeliz!!!
Sorry, Brass and I can agree and then agree to disagree as civilized human beings.
He's a bud.
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Brass Bud, with all due respect, a US show of force would have been exactly what Putler was waiting for and who knows what would have happened. THIS issue is still a European issue. The moment the US would have gotten involved, Putler would have won.
Proof?
Look at the rantings from the European ultra-right claiming this is a US-led takeover of Ukraine. No matter what you say stating the opposite, the US DID this.
That's you and the rest of the lefties worrying about what Europe thinks. The rest of us know that Europe manages to get themselves into some sort of war or quagmire every few decades and that without US leadership they would likely be speaking either German or Russian across the entire continent right now.
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Muzh and I are buddies. We don't argue unless it involves potential police raids in his neighborhood. ;D
Brass
LMFAO
You remember. Good one!!
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Standing in Vienna you could see Polish traders with Dutch goods.
After meeting you, I wondered where you bought your clothes.
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lessons learned on the last invasion of Russia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zinPbUZUHDE
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It will happen in 2017 when we have a real President again, instead of an imposter.
In reading some posts at RWD I wonder if the author is a poster or imposter.
If it is not obvious, I have well into my Friday cocktail hour.
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The rest of us know that Europe manages to get themselves into some sort of war or quagmire every few decades ...
Ahem, we haven't had "some sort of war" for almost 70+ years now, but I wouldn't mind our annexing Switzerland - and their banks ;D - they are surrounded ;).
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Ahem, we haven't had "some sort of war" for almost 70+ years now, but I wouldn't mind our annexing Switzerland - and their banks ;D - they are surrounded ;).
Because the USA is over there keeping oil shipping lanes available and other such. Don't underestimate the power of deterrence. If we had not been in W. Germany before the fall of the wall do you really think that the Soviets in E. Germany would not have steamrolled the West?
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:popcorn:
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In reading some posts at RWD I wonder if the author is a poster or imposter.
If it is not obvious, I have well into my Friday cocktail hour.
It's obvious. You're probably having a good nap by now. :D
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Because the USA is over there keeping oil shipping lanes available and other such.
IIRC, the Suez canal was closed by Nasser in 1956-7 and again in 1967-1975, without the USA "keeping oil shipping lanes available" to Europe ;) - during this period, super-tankers were developed for circumnavigating Africa from the Arabian peninsula, and I remember our gas prices skyrocketing at filling stations.
Don't underestimate the power of deterrence. If we had not been in W. Germany before the fall of the wall do you really think that the Soviets in E. Germany would not have steamrolled the West?
Very likely. However, would it have been in the USA's interests to have a Soviet-ruled Europe just across the pond :-\? Interpreting recent history is always a perilous exercise.
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F-35s to Replace Troops in Europe as Russia Deterrent
The Pentagon announced Thursday, Jan. 8, that as part of its response to Russian aggression, it would dispatch two squadrons of next-generation fighter jets to the United Kingdom to replace military personnel currently being withdrawn.
The shift is part of the $985 million “European Reassurance Initiative,” the Obama administration’s effort to bolster European militaries in the wake of Russia’s annexation of the Crimean peninsula in March.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/01/08/f-35s-to-replace-troops-in-europe-as-russia-deterrent/?wp_login_redirect=0
Jay! Don't take only the parts out of the article to support your argument. Obama is not supporting Europe like you want to believe. Let's analyze that article. The $985 million “European Reassurance Initiative,” is the Obama administration’s effort to bolster European militaries in the wake of Russia’s annexation of the Crimean peninsula in March. When this military restructure is done, America will save $500 million. A few high tech fighter planes aren't going to replace $500 million dollars of troops and military hardware Obama is moving out of Europe. Obama is disguising his cutback of troops as a improvement to show Putin he's supporting Europe. Action speaks louder than words. Calling it the "European Reassurance Initiative" isn't fooling me and certainly won't fool Putin. You don't cut $500 million of support to your friends and claim you're doing more for them now than in previous years.
Russians don't employ 'armored divisions' they employ two types of tank brigades (heavy and medium).
Strange. I read your post a few hours ago and now replying to it but something is missing but there is no post editing note. Do you have magical forum powers? Fortunately I've got a good memory and a browser history that works. Here's the missing link you previously posted below. It supports what I've been saying that Russia will send divisions into Europe if Putin decides large scale war. It says Russia structured its army around brigades a few years ago instead of divisions which are better suited for world war style war. America too has broken up divisions into smaller brigades. Now, if Russia decides to go back to world war style war, they will assign the brigades under divisions. It doesn't really matter what you want to call it, whether it be 20 divisions or 100 brigades, 6000 tanks are going to inflict a lot of damage.
http://www.rusi.org/publications/newsbrief/ref:A5331667D996C4/#.VLB9O7k5CUl
The NATO brigade is touted as a 'tip of the spear' formation. It's not being formed to show Putin NATO mean business as much as to reassure it's less capable members and create a 'tripwire' type response to any potential use by Russia of military force presumably against a NATO country. I'd assume the idea would be deployment before invasion.
The NATO brigade is not a "tip of the spear" formation. The brigade is designed as speed bump to slow Russia down and a weak hint to Putin we are unified. Tip of the spear units are units who lead the battle on offense. NATO isn't planning offense or to strike first on Russia. America has around 30,000 troops in South Korea the last time I read about it. That is the equivalent of multiple brigades or a division. That small American force in South Korea isn't there for offense or to dominate a fight with North Korea while defending South Korea. It is a speed bump to slow North Korea down and a show of support for South Korea. Fellow American soldiers who served in South Korea told me they were going to die if North Korea initiated a full invasion. Don't ever believe a brigade sized unit is going to stop an army the size of Russia's.
I don't know where Global got that figure from but it's outlandishly inflated. The Russians have no more than 2000 T-90 MTBs and maybe twice that in modernized soviet era T-72s, T-80s and some other lesser known models. They have nowhere near 15,000 tanks combat ready or otherwise at there disposal.
Granted this wont make a difference for East European countries with similar equipment but for NATO forces it's the T-90 that's the concern.
If anyone's interested this article gives a pretty good overview of how the Russian land forces are organized...
http://www.rusi.org/publications/newsbrief/ref:A5331667D996C4/#.VK_rwul0zMw
This article gives a critical estimate of Russia's capabilities as opposed to the media hysteria surrounding same...
http://russiamil.wordpress.com/2014/03/31/how-not-to-do-maps-of-military-strength/
The information from the links you provided seem to be opinion an not based on facts from reliable studies. Take look at the first two links I provided below. You think 15,000 is inflated? They say Russia currently has over 20,000 tanks. If a single American city can have over a million cars on it's streets, why is it hard to believe an entire nation, Russia could have at least 15,000 tanks especially since they produce their tanks much cheaper than we produce ours?
The third link shows tank force by nation. Italy is Western Europe's #1 reigning tank champion with a total number of 600 tanks. Pitiful numbers compared to Russia's. In the world Italy ranks #28. Russia also has much more aircraft than any European nation which can help Russia dominate the skies and provide safe passage for their tanks. NATO is only powerful to stop Russia if you add American military hardware to the tally. I understand Western European nations military hardware is state of the art but there is simply not enough of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_main_battle_tanks_by_country
http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/the-biggest/the-worlds-10-biggest-battle-tank-forces/?view=all
http://www.globalfirepower.com/armor-tanks-total.asp
Parts of Eastern Europe maybe but not all and I highly doubt Russia could shatter the economies of Western Europe. Germany is the European economic powerhouse not Russia.
When you have more, you have more to lose. If Russia landed on Germany's doorstep with their previous neighbors devastated, Germans will go into panic. The last thing on their mind will be to work and shop which are things essential to an economy. A couple of planes can crash into a building or a stock market can crash can have serious impacts on an economy. The thought that you and the citizens around you may have a few days left to live will have an impact too. But then again in the event of world war, maybe the Germans go out and buy that top of the line Mercedes they've always been wanting and keep their economy rolling?
Agreed for the most part to your Para 2 regarding mobilizing. What needs to be considered is in this day and age you can't mobilize large combat formations with the associated supply trains and rear echelons without it being known worldwide.
Russia was able to concentrate large formations for the invasions Georgia and Ukraine under the guise of 'large military (district) exercises in the past. That excuse wouldn't fly with NATO now. Any further concentrations would Alert NATO and they'd mobilize accordingly, probably in lock step with the Russian concentration.
When Russia mobilized large amounts of troops on Ukraine's border, I thought Putin was going to use those troops to invade. Putin was smart and use another option to accomplish his goals. There are thousands of Ukrainian rebels in Ukraine that are willing to give Ukraine to Putin and die for that cause. Why not use the guinea pigs first before sacrificing Russian soldiers lives. Maybe they will be successful if given some assistance.
The mobilization of large troops posturing for war wasn't for nothing though. Putin learn something. You are correct that we can see Russian movements of large troops but you are incorrect that NATO is going to do something about it by mobilizing correctly. Putin even withdrew his troops occasionally and remobilized numerous times. NATO did nothing to match Russia's troop buildup. NATO nations did impose sanctions. If Putin decides on taking Europe, he will have a head start and there's not much in his way that's ready. Obama did send 600 troops to Poland and Baltics for training exercises. Less than a speed bump.
Poland is not scared to death of Russia.
Poland reacted to Russia's aggressive behavior as if their life and way of life depended on it. If you said France is not scared to death of Russia, I'd agree with you. They are not worried about losing their lives to Russia and actually itching to $ell Russia a couple of warships.
With what money? In Rubles?
In the summer, the Russian President was paying Chechen mercs $ 300 a day. I don't think that is do-able which is prolly why he is begging Central Asian migrant workers to fight the war he started.
You have to pay the joes, Billy B.
How did Stalin do it? Did he offer his people top of the line wages? Did he offer a good pension and health care plan to get people motivated for the fight against Hitler? NO, you don't have to pay people well to create a well oiled war machine. If the Russian people are angry enough, they will mine the resources and manufacture weapons practically free and happily use them to kill the people who are destroying their way of life. Forcing people to work is another option but with the support Putin is getting, Putin may not need to use that option except on those few who don't support him.
Also nukes don't require much money to do their job. Gorbachev feels the anger mounting and bitterness can lead to a nuclear war. I doubt there will be a nuclear war or a world war but if the right turn of events happen, anything can happen.
http://blogs.barrons.com/emergingmarketsdaily/2015/01/09/gorbachev-russia-ukraine-europe-risk-nuclear-war/?mod=yahoobarrons&ru=yahoo
Ahem, we haven't had "some sort of war" for almost 70+ years now,
Europe's 3rd most deadliest war happened in the 90's that even NATO was participating in. That war was just around the corner, not 70+ years. Yugoslavia doesn't exist anymore so I forgive you for forgetting about them. I'm sure Putin has used Yugoslavia's war as an example to educate his people that NATO is capable of going to war on a nation without UN approval or any of it's alliance members being threatened by the nation they initiate war with.
Sandro, on a side note, ISIS has used some of those WMD hiding in Iraq that wasn't supposed to exist. ;)
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Jay! Don't take only the parts out of the article to support your argument. Obama is not supporting Europe like you want to believe. ;)
BB-- that article had simple explanation of policy direction-- a policy made in previous times--not the current situation. :)
I say Russian reserves are now well below that often stated minimum safe level--at a guess-close to to 1/2 :) These are all big picture issues--it still leaves Ukraine desperately in need of military help-- and now-not in a years time.
Following a few links quite a few people here need to read,--some were written well before the current collapse of the oil price was evident.
"The financing gap has reached 3pc of GDP, and they have to repay $150bn in principal to foreign creditors over the next 12 months. It will be very dangerous if reserves fall below $330bn," he said.
"The benign outcome is a return to the stagnation of the Brezhnev era [Застой in Russian] in the early 1980s, without a financial collapse. The bad outcome could be a lot worse," he said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_pritchard/11181297/Oil-slump-leaves-Russia-even-weaker-than-decaying-Soviet-Union.html
CIA role and oil price suicide
First appeared: http://journal-neo.org/2014/12/21/russia-us-sanctions-and-stupid-cia-oil-wars/
Russia US Sanctions and Stupid CIA Oil Wars
They now try a rerun of their 1986 Saudi oil price collapse strategy to topple Putin, Maduro in Venezuela and Iran according to informed reports from reliable Washington researcher Wayne Madsen.
In 1986, Vice President George H.W. Bush, father of George W., together with Secretary of State George Schultz and others convinced Riyadh, as John Kerry did in his September 2014 meeting with Saudi King Abdullah, to run a “reverse oil shock” that had the effect of toppling the over-stretched Soviet Union. It worked in 1986, why not in 2014? Is the thinking of some in Washington.
First appeared: http://journal-neo.org/2014/12/21/russia-us-sanctions-and-stupid-cia-oil-wars/
Ex-CIA Chief : Hobble Russia by Forcing Down Oil Price
If we can find a way — and we can — to get the price of oil down so Russia doesn't have the advantage of being able to run their society on overpriced oil paid for by you and me, then we will be in a very much better situation than we are now," Woolsey, co-founder of the U.S. Energy Security Council, told "America's Forum" hosts J.D. Hayworth and John Bachman.
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsmax-Tv/Oil-china-natural-gas/2014/05/20/id/572463/
The Secret Saudi-US Deal on Syria. Oil Gas Pipeline War
The US-Saudi oil price manipulation is aimed at destabilizing several strong opponents of US globalist policies. Targets include Iran and Syria, both allies of Russia in opposing a US sole Superpower. The principal target, however, is Putin’s Russia, the single greatest threat today to that Superpower hegemony. The strategy is similar to what the US did with Saudi Arabia in 1986 when they flooded the world with Saudi oil, collapsing the price to below $10 a barrel and destroying the economy of then-Soviet ally
The Kerry-Abdullah secret deal
On September 11, US Secretary of State Kerry met Saudi King Abdullah at his palace on the Red Sea. The King invited former head of Saudi intelligence, Prince Bandar to attend. There a deal was hammered out which saw Saudi support for the Syrian airstrikes against ISIS on condition Washington backed the Saudis in toppling Assad, a firm ally of Russia and de facto of Iran and an obstacle to Saudi and UAE plans to control the emerging EU natural gas market and destroy Russia’s lucrative EU trade.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-secret-stupid-saudi-us-deal-on-syria/5410130
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Ex-CIA Chief Woolsey: Hobble Russia by Forcing Down Oil Price
Published on 20 May 2014
Saying Russia "cannot function as a society" if the price of its oil exports plunges, former CIA chief James Woolsey said
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UedP-x5f-XQ
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More !!
Saudi Arabia's SECRET to Cause a MASSIVE Drop in Price of Oil!
Saudi Arabia is pushing down the price of oil in order to put pressure on Russia and Iran. This is yet another deal that the Saudi's and U.S. have come to terms on. As billions of U.S. dollars flow into Saudi, they are willing to take advantage. This is effectively a sanction on Russia and Iran.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USdYw2UVN6M
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You're so sweet.
A Polish officer can say whatever he wants. I'd be more interested in what Ms. Kopacz had to say about the Nigr.
As far as I'm concerned there are many in Europe and on this side of the pond who remember very fondly Poland's adventurism.
Kinda sick of you referring to the President as a Nigger and getting a way with it. It is not funny or clever. Its offensive.
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You go from claiming the Ukrainians can beat Putins military to this? You are all over the map. Billy is correct that if Putin wanted to he could steamroll tanks quickly across E. Europe. Hopefully it will never come to that, as currently the USA and Nato are not prepared. Poland and the Baltics are correct to fear the Bear, they know from the past what kind of atrocities the Russians (ie the Soviets which IMO are one and the same) are capable of.
You and Billy have fallen for Russian maskirovka. There is no way Putin has 20 armored divisions that can execute combined arms warfare. Even if he did, he can't pay them. The Russians have lost another war and a civil war is about to begin.
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So are you saying that the Nigr fabricated over 300 electoral votes?
No one else refers to the President as a Nigger except you. Why?
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when we have a Republican President.
Our version of Obama?
Yay!
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Billy B, Putin is not Stalin. You have to pay the Joes. They have guns.
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Kinda sick of you referring to the President as a Nigger and getting a way with it. It is not funny or clever. Its offensive.
uummm, We just had a massacre over freedom of speech and expression. If you feel offended dont read or look. Dont attack.
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uummm, We just had a massacre over freedom of speech and expression. If you feel offended dont read or look. Dont attack.
They use freedom of speech for Putin only :D
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They use freedom of speech for Putin only :D
umm, Putin is offended by free speech also. Little man syndrome.
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uummm, We just had a massacre over freedom of speech and expression. If you feel offended dont read or look. Dont attack.
Now you are acting like (edit) ME (/edit)
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I say Russian reserves are now well below that often stated minimum safe level--at a guess-close to to 1/2 :) These are all big picture issues--it still leaves Ukraine desperately in need of military help-- and now-not in a years time.
Guessing isn't a good method of judging what an aggressive adversary owns. What is fact is the last few years Obama is reducing our military force and our roles around the world and Putin is growing his. Russia may have more weapons available than what studies have shown. Recently they've been accused of breaking nuke treaties by owning too many nukes.
Article below says tank factories are closing their doors in Europe and Russia is going to produce their latest tank, the T-14, 4 times more than America is producing the M-1. The T-14 is 40% bigger than the T-90 so it'll be in the same weight class as the M-1. Putin understands the West are making military cutbacks. We should understand Putin wants to grow and modernize his military. As we approach equality, Putin's, China's, and other countries odds of achieving their goals grows and the world will become a more dangerous place.
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/01/10/tank-arms-race-introducing-russias-21st-century-ar.aspx
You and Billy have fallen for Russian maskirovka. There is no way Putin has 20 armored divisions that can execute combined arms warfare. Even if he did, he can't pay them. The Russians have lost another war and a civil war is about to begin.
Well, that settles it. There is no reason to worry about Russia. They don't have the weapons, troops or funds to engage in combat. I guess Putin was right he didn't put tens of thousands of troops of Ukraine's border and he's not involved in Ukraine. Russia couldn't punch their way out of a paper bag. LT says so.
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Glad we agree. Thx
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Strange. I read your post a few hours ago and now replying to it but something is missing but there is no post editing note. Do you have magical forum powers? Fortunately I've got a good memory and a browser history that works. Here's the missing link you previously posted below.
To my knowledge the same link has remained visible and active from the time I placed it there. I just went and looked and it's currently working.
It supports what I've been saying that Russia will send divisions into Europe if Putin decides large scale war. It says Russia structured its army around brigades a few years ago instead of divisions which are better suited for world war style war. America too has broken up divisions into smaller brigades. Now, if Russia decides to go back to world war style war, they will assign the brigades under divisions. It doesn't really matter what you want to call it, whether it be 20 divisions or 100 brigades, 6000 tanks are going to inflict a lot of damage.
http://www.rusi.org/publications/newsbrief/ref:A5331667D996C4/#.VLB9O7k5CUl
"It supports what I've been saying that Russia will send divisions into Europe if Putin decides large scale war."
No, it doesn't Billy it says nothing even close to that conclusion.
"It says Russia structured its army around brigades a few years ago instead of divisions which are better suited for world war style war."
..."The present structure of the Russian ground forces was established through the military reforms of 2008–11, which saw the army reorganized from a force designed to wage a large-scale, Second World War-style war into a more flexible force structured around brigades (rather than divisions)"...
That's the exact opposite of how you've interpreted Sutyagin's statement. If you're referring to another statement in the article please paste it because I can't find it.
"Now, if Russia decides to go back to world war style war, they will assign the brigades under divisions. It doesn't really matter what you want to call it, whether it be 20 divisions or 100 brigades, 6000 tanks are going to inflict a lot of damage.""
However, this is not how their ground forces are currently organized which is what my point was...
..."At the same time, the ground forces’ twenty-four combined-arms divisions and twelve combined-arms brigades were reorganised into four tank brigades; forty-one motorised rifle, mountain and reconnaissance brigades; and one tank, one motorised rifle, and one ‘fortifications’ division, as well as numerous specialist brigades and regiments. The overall size of the 395,000-strong force was also reduced to the current 270,000, alongside reserve forces and capabilities designed on a similar basis to the US"...
If at some point in the future if the Russian forces reverted back to divisional command structures after spending years reforming/reorganizing their ground forces to the Brigade format I'd be surprised but anything's possible.
The NATO brigade is not a "tip of the spear" formation. The brigade is designed as speed bump to slow Russia down and a weak hint to Putin we are unified. Tip of the spear units are units who lead the battle on offense. NATO isn't planning offense or to strike first on Russia.
..."At their Wales Summit in September 2014, Allies agreed to create a spearhead within the NRF – a Very High Readiness Joint Task Force (VJTF), able to deploy at very short notice, particularly at the periphery of NATO’s territory. The VJTF should consist of a land component with appropriate air, maritime and Special Operations Forces available."...
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_49755.htm
Right from the horse's mouth. I can't make it any clearer than their own words. As I've already stated this is not a 'speedbump' it's a 'tripwire' strategy.
America has around 30,000 troops in South Korea the last time I read about it. That is the equivalent of multiple brigades or a division. That small American force in South Korea isn't there for offense or to dominate a fight with North Korea while defending South Korea. It is a speed bump to slow North Korea down and a show of support for South Korea. Fellow American soldiers who served in South Korea told me they were going to die if North Korea initiated a full invasion. Don't ever believe a brigade sized unit is going to stop an army the size of Russia's.
Two divisions actually but who's counting. I'm not aware of the state of American service personnel moral in Korea but it would seem placing 30,000 personnel in harm's way as a "speed bump" would be akin to a policy of gross criminal negligence by the U.S. government. Something I doubt would be institutionalized over seven or eight successive administrations. Sorry Billy but I'm not buying your interpretation of this at all.
The information from the links you provided seem to be opinion an not based on facts from reliable studies. Take look at the first two links I provided below. You think 15,000 is inflated? They say Russia currently has over 20,000 tanks. If a single American city can have over a million cars on it's streets, why is it hard to believe an entire nation, Russia could have at least 15,000 tanks especially since they produce their tanks much cheaper than we produce ours?
The third link shows tank force by nation. Italy is Western Europe's #1 reigning tank champion with a total number of 600 tanks. Pitiful numbers compared to Russia's. In the world Italy ranks #28. Russia also has much more aircraft than any European nation which can help Russia dominate the skies and provide safe passage for their tanks. NATO is only powerful to stop Russia if you add American military hardware to the tally. I understand Western European nations military hardware is state of the art but there is simply not enough of it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_main_battle_tanks_by_country
http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/the-biggest/the-worlds-10-biggest-battle-tank-forces/?view=all
http://www.globalfirepower.com/armor-tanks-total.asp
The links (two of them, anyways other two's a press release and tank bio) I've provided are in depth studies from people who've dedicated their professional careers to Russian studies. I'd put that up against an anonymous figure placed on a non governmental website any day.
However, I'm starting to see where confusion may arise regarding the figure you've quoted. From one of your links...
..."Tank value includes Main Battle Tanks, light tanks and tank destroyers, either wheeled or tracked"...
http://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=russia
I refer you to a press release from TASS dated October 1 of last year...
Russia’s Ground Forces to get 5,000 pieces of new armored vehicles by 2020
..."Under the country’s unprecedented army re-equipment program, the share of advanced weaponry in the Russian army is set to reach 70% by 2020
MOSCOW, October 1. /TASS/. Russia’s Ground Forces are due to receive 5,000 pieces of new armored vehicles and 6,000 pieces of modernized weaponry by 2020, Colonel General Oleg Salyukov said on Wednesday.
“In total, up to 2020 it is planned to buy over 5,000 new and around 6,000 modernized samples of armored vehicles and military hardware, and around 14,000 pieces of modern samples of vehicles,” said Salyukov, the commander-in-chief of the Russian Ground Forces."...
..."The government is planning to buy modernized T-72B3 tanks, which were seen at Russia's tank biathlon world championship outside Moscow in early August and during the last month’s Vostok-2014 military drills in Russia's Far East."...
..."Under the country’s unprecedented army re-equipment program, the share of advanced weaponry in the Russian army, currently estimated at 16%, is set to reach 70% by 2020"...
http://itar-tass.com/en/russia/752093
Giving the Russians the best case scenario and we assume those "armored vehicles" are all MBTs. We can project the math
A rearmament/replacement by 2020 of 70% being a total of 5000 units means the current number of units stands at somewhere just under 7200 units or armored vehicles if my interpretation of this article is correct.
When you have more, you have more to lose. If Russia landed on Germany's doorstep with their previous neighbors devastated, Germans will go into panic. The last thing on their mind will be to work and shop which are things essential to an economy. A couple of planes can crash into a building or a stock market can crash can have serious impacts on an economy. The thought that you and the citizens around you may have a few days left to live will have an impact too. But then again in the event of world war, maybe the Germans go out and buy that top of the line Mercedes they've always been wanting and keep their economy rolling?
What if is fun to play but what if Germany and NATO saw the Russian build up prior to your supposed Russian march to Germany's doorstep and the German/Europeans were already on a war time footing?
Read the papers Billy. The Europeans are already on an increased vigilance. The Nordic nations are already dealing with Russian incursions, Poland's for all pratical purposes on a war footing, The Baltic nations are issuing pamphlets on what to do in the event of war and reorganizing their meager militaries.
The German collective national psyche is not intimidated by Russia, that's a given. I'd say the opposite is more a reality if anything.
You base your scenario from a position of fear, Billy. I don't agree with you that the Germans would panic.
When Russia mobilized large amounts of troops on Ukraine's border, I thought Putin was going to use those troops to invade. Putin was smart and use another option to accomplish his goals. There are thousands of Ukrainian rebels in Ukraine that are willing to give Ukraine to Putin and die for that cause. Why not use the guinea pigs first before sacrificing Russian soldiers lives. Maybe they will be successful if given some assistance.
Of course they were going to invade they were following the exact same doctrine as the Georgia invasion. Agitate (locals and little green men) then invade under the pretext of saving the ethnic Russians. What they weren't counting on was Ukraine's military initially kicking the so-called separatists a$$ and MH17. Blew the whole operation out of the water. They managed to secure Crimea out of the boondoggle but we'll see how long that lasts.
The mobilization of large troops posturing for war wasn't for nothing though. Putin learn something. You are correct that we can see Russian movements of large troops but you are incorrect that NATO is going to do something about it by mobilizing correctly. Putin even withdrew his troops occasionally and remobilized numerous times. NATO did nothing to match Russia's troop buildup. NATO nations did impose sanctions. If Putin decides on taking Europe, he will have a head start and there's not much in his way that's ready. Obama did send 600 troops to Poland and Baltics for training exercises. Less than a speed bump.
I'd suggest to you that a similar mobilization near the Baltics or Poland's front door would elicit a stronger response now.
Poland reacted to Russia's aggressive behavior as if their life and way of life depended on it. If you said France is not scared to death of Russia, I'd agree with you. They are not worried about losing their lives to Russia and actually itching to $ell Russia a couple of warships.
Poland is reacting because their life and way of life does depend on it but don't confuse determination with fear.
So far France is doing exactly what they should be doing and more power to'em.
Brass
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It's entertaining and also enlightening to read both Billy B's and Brasscasings posts on this subject. Brass do you really think that NATO could (or would is probably a better question) stop Mr. Putin if he did an all out invasion of Ukraine and headed towards Moldova? Obviously he could (and would) have troops break-out from the Crimea as well. Any Ukrainian troops and armor in between would likely be annihilated. I am not trying to be pessimistic, just facing facts. I believe he could quickly have his corridor from where he is (E. Ukraine) all the way to Transnistra. I believe he has already put Nuclear weapons in Sevastopol and would warn the West to mind their own "sphere of influence". Remember an all out invasion is going to include air superiority and unless the West wants to start WWIII he would quickly have it over Ukraine's air force.
There is nothing in Article 5 which states that NATO countries must come to the aid of Ukraine and Obama certainly does not have the backbone to do it; neither do any European countries I know of want to take the risk in standing up to him within Ukraine.
I think if he is going to do an all out invasion of Ukraine he will do it in the spring once it warms up. Although the sanctions have hurt the Russian economy it's a long way until it shuts it down enough for Russians to rise up against him. Right now with his popularity as high as it is he likely feels he must get his land bridge to Crimea to keep the ultra nationals who are his best supporters happy. To claim he doesn't have the money for this invasion is ludicrous, just look at what the Soviets accomplished in WWII when they were down on their luck.
The question is whether or not he could hold large swaths of Ukrainian territory. He may try to negotiate with the West after he gets his land bridge, but I am afraid it may be too late to stop this. NATO forces over in Poland are too far away and the little help Ukraine has gotten is not sufficient.
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Two divisions actually but who's counting. I'm not aware of the state of American service personnel moral in Korea but it would seem placing 30,000 personnel in harm's way as a "speed bump" would be akin to a policy of gross criminal negligence by the U.S. government. Something I doubt would be institutionalized over seven or eight successive administrations. Sorry Billy but I'm not buying your interpretation of this at all.
You don't have to believe Billy's interpretation but it's the closest thing to reality that there is.
Upon being stationed where I was stationed all of us new guys were told by the CO of the overwhelming forces assembled just over the border and we were told point blank that if the enemy invaded they hoped we might last 72 to 96 hours until reinforcements from elsewhere (Fr. Bragg NC US mainland, etc) could arrive.
Clearly tactical Nukes might have been used to stop an invading enemy as they certainly were available.
Now reverse this scenario and it's Russia who has Nukes in both Sevastopol, Kaliningrad and likely their section of Moldova and they are telling the West to keep out.
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Bravo Brass
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To claim he doesn't have the money for this invasion is ludicrous, just look at what the Soviets accomplished in WWII when they were down on their luck.
All things are possible with American lend lease. Ask Winston.
:offtopic: Stalin sold Pacific lend lease to Japan.
The question is whether or not he could hold large swaths of Ukrainian territory.
You think he can? Why?
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You think he can? Why?
No I don't but I think he could get a corridor at least to Crimea and hold it. Lend lease is a moot point. It's Ukraine's much smaller Army and tiny Air Force against Putin's much larger Army and Air Force.
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I wonder why you keep trying to direct your weak arguments at me? Try directing them at poster Brass. I'm not interested in your whining. Maybe he will humor you.
Why would I do that? Brass is extremely eloquent and well informed. There are issues I agree with him and others I disagree. We discuss them and respect each others opinion, like true gentlemen.
Now, you on the other hand...
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Kinda sick of you referring to the President as a Nigger and getting a way with it. It is not funny or clever. Its offensive.
Oooo, you are calling the Prez using the N-word. I knew it, you racist.
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No one else refers to the President as a Nigger except you. Why?
Another one. One heck of a job there Brownie.
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Oooo, you are calling the Prez using the N-word. I knew it, you racist.
:rolleyes:
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Now you are acting like a Nigger.
LMFAO
It seems I opened the floodgates.
C'mon guys, let it all out. ;)
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Why would I do that? Brass is extremely eloquent and well informed. There are issues I agree with him and others I disagree. We discuss them and respect each others opinion, like true gentlemen.
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=4594.msg388065#msg388065
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http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=4594.msg388065#msg388065 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=4594.msg388065#msg388065)
??
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It's entertaining and also enlightening to read both Billy B's and Brasscasings posts on this subject. Brass do you really think that NATO could (or would is probably a better question) stop Mr. Putin if he did an all out invasion of Ukraine and headed towards Moldova? Obviously he could (and would) have troops break-out from the Crimea as well. Any Ukrainian troops and armor in between would likely be annihilated. I am not trying to be pessimistic, just facing facts. I believe he could quickly have his corridor from where he is (E. Ukraine) all the way to Transnistra. I believe he has already put Nuclear weapons in Sevastopol and would warn the West to mind their own "sphere of influence". Remember an all out invasion is going to include air superiority and unless the West wants to start WWIII he would quickly have it over Ukraine's air force.
There is nothing in Article 5 which states that NATO countries must come to the aid of Ukraine and Obama certainly does not have the backbone to do it; neither do any European countries I know of want to take the risk in standing up to him within Ukraine.
I think if he is going to do an all out invasion of Ukraine he will do it in the spring once it warms up. Although the sanctions have hurt the Russian economy it's a long way until it shuts it down enough for Russians to rise up against him. Right now with his popularity as high as it is he likely feels he must get his land bridge to Crimea to keep the ultra nationals who are his best supporters happy. To claim he doesn't have the money for this invasion is ludicrous, just look at what the Soviets accomplished in WWII when they were down on their luck.
The question is whether or not he could hold large swaths of Ukrainian territory. He may try to negotiate with the West after he gets his land bridge, but I am afraid it may be too late to stop this. NATO forces over in Poland are too far away and the little help Ukraine has gotten is not sufficient.
Wow, there's a lot here, AC. You outline both possible strategic and long term initiatives and short term and tactical advantage and/or response.
Tactically Ukraine is exposed (as are the Baltics). Russia could more than likely take Kiev in an all out push.
Would the Russian population support an invasion if confronted with the reality? I don't know. Putin's dictatorship might not survive such a move. The propaganda would need to be ratcheted up considerably from what it is now and that in itself would be a warning.
The land bridge question; Unknown. Based on my limited experience in planning large scale invasions of neighboring countries (yeah, Idaho panhandle I've got my eye on you :P ) Russia might be able to punch through initially but it's a difficult piece of geography. Once taken the Russians would have to maintain an elongated flank with their backs on the Sea of Azov. So if it were me planning the attempt I'd be more worried about the ability to hold it vice take it.
Russia's not ready for an all out knock down drag out at this point as evidenced by the scramble to reorganize, re equip, re arm to a modern army. Yes, they can do the local regional conquest thing but not take on NATO conventionally or strategically. Russia might make initial gains but would eventually lose them.
I've already made my opinion on the nuc question pretty clear. Nucs are not an option for Putin.
Brass
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The land bridge question; Unknown. Based on my limited experience in planning large scale invasions of neighboring countries (yeah, Idaho panhandle I've got my eye on you :P ) Russia might be able to punch through initially but it's a difficult piece of geography. Once taken the Russians would have to maintain an elongated flank with their backs on the Sea of Azov. So if it were me planning the attempt I'd be more worried about the ability to hold it vice take it.
Russia's not ready for an all out knock down drag out at this point as evidenced by the scramble to reorganize, re equip, re arm to a modern army. Yes, they can do the local regional conquest thing but not take on NATO conventionally or strategically. Russia might make initial gains but would eventually lose them.
I guess we will likely find out this spring as from what I've read that is when he will make his move for his land bridge or not. With his Air Force supporting him from above I really don't see how he could be stopped; provided that he makes such a bold and risky move. 99% chance that NATO will not intervene IMO because it's within Ukraine. Sure a lot of hot air out of the usual suspects but that's all. Why could he not hold a land bridge to Ukraine? He's going to go into overdrive diplomatically claiming he had no choice because Ukrainian fascists were starving the Crimean's.
He won't actually use Nuclear weapons however he will continue to posture or threaten or imply that he would use them if the West at all interferes within his "sphere of influence" which he obviously believes to be Ukraine. Some sort of quid pro quo about the Middle East or something else and with Obama as President he gets what he wants. I really don't think that the West is ready to start WWIII over this guys actions over there.
Sure in time the increased economic sanctions could lead to his downfall and destruction but as we've seen from past dictators like Gaddafi and others they can prolong their ultimate destiny for a good long while.
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You don't have to believe Billy's interpretation but it's the closest thing to reality that there is.
Upon being stationed where I was stationed all of us new guys were told by the CO of the overwhelming forces assembled just over the border and we were told point blank that if the enemy invaded they hoped we might last 72 to 96 hours until reinforcements from elsewhere (Fr. Bragg NC US mainland, etc) could arrive.
Clearly tactical Nukes might have been used to stop an invading enemy as they certainly were available.
Now reverse this scenario and it's Russia who has Nukes in both Sevastopol, Kaliningrad and likely their section of Moldova and they are telling the West to keep out.
I want you to read something. The following isn't fantasy, it's history. If you believe that you're a 'speed bump' then that's more than likely what you'll end up being. In my opinion this reference to being a 'speed bump' is more a state of mind than anything else. It's not a military strategy or government policy and it has no place in a soldiers way of thinking...
THE BATTLE OF KAP'YONG - 50TH ANNIVERSARY
..."Fifty years ago Hill 677 was a defensive position held by Canadian troops. The fighting that took place there was one of a multitude of battles across the Korean Peninsula in an attempt to stop a major offensive by the Chinese Communist Forces. In the years that followed, the hill became a focal point in reference to Canadian military operations during the Korean War. It was known as the Battle of Kap'yong.
On April 22 the CCF commenced their 1951 spring offensive, ramming heavily into United Nations Forces along the front line from the west coast to the Soyang River in the east. One of the main thrusts by the Chinese was toward the Kap'yong Valley, a direct route to Seoul. This sector was held by the U.S. 1 and IX Corps. Under heavy pressure the Americans withdrew, leaving two regiments of the 6th Republic of Korea Division to block the enemy drive. The South Korean troops were hit hard and forced to withdraw. Four days earlier the Calgary- based 2nd Battalion Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (the first Canadian infantry unit to see action in Korea) had moved out of the line to a rest area near Chongchon-ni, 25 km south. On the morning of April 23 the Patricias were shocked to learn the front was collapsing. They were ordered to immediately establish defensive positions on Hill 677, a feature within corps reserve, 20 km behind the lines.
By mid-afternoon Lt.-Col. "Big Jim" Stone, commanding officer, 2nd Battalion PPCLI, had deployed his four rifle companies, battalion tactical headquarters and supporting arms on the hill. Able, Baker and Charlie Companies faced the main east-west curve of the valley. Dog Company occupied the left flank. Because of the terrain, interlocking fire support between companies was limited. The platoons in each company supported each other, with gaps between the companies fire-tasked by battalion machine guns and mortars as well as by a New Zealand artillery regiment. The 3rd Battalion Royal Australian Regiment, supported by a company of the U.S. 72nd Heavy Tank Battalion, held high ground five km across the valley to the east.
The men on 677 dug in. It was a tough task. The soil was rocky and this resulted in many slit trenches being only two to four feet deep. Rock parapets were built for extra protection. Potential enemy assault routes were trip-wired and booby-trapped with grenades and mortar bombs.
Capt. Owen R. Browne, officer commanding Able Company, later wrote in a regimental journal:
"It was then, about mid-afternoon (April 23), that the rumour of the collapsing front acquired a meaning. From my arrival until then both the main Kap'yong Valley and the subsidiary valley cutting across the front had been empty of people. Then, suddenly, down the road through the subsidiary valley came hordes of men, running, walking, interspersed with military vehicles — totally disorganized mobs. They were elements of the 6th ROK Division which were supposed to be ten miles forward engaging the Chinese. But they were not engaging the Chinese. They were fleeing! I was witnessing a rout. The valley was filled with men. Some left the road and fled over the forward edges of "A" Company positions. Some killed themselves on the various booby traps we had laid, and that component of my defensive layout became worthless . . . between 1530 hours and 1800 hours all of A" Coy speeded up its defence preparations and digging as it watched, helpless to intervene, while approximately 4000-5000 troops fled in disorganized panic across and through the forward edges of our positions. But we knew then that we were no longer 10-12 miles behind the line; we were the front line."
The evening was quiet, the sky clear, a moon rising. The Patricias watched and waited. Just after midnight the sky suddenly turned bright with illumination flares drifting over the Australian positions across the valley. Rifles, machine guns, mortars, and artillery simultaneously smashed the silence. The Chinese had struck. The first phase of the Battle of Kap'yong had begun. All during the night the RARs fought the enemy on the hill slopes and in their trenches. They regrouped and tightened their perimeter. At dawn April 24, the Chinese withdrew then attacked again. In the late afternoon, after battling wave after wave of Chinese assault troops for 16 hours, and running low on ammunition, the Australians were ordered to withdraw.
Now the only infantrymen left to stop the Chinese advance through the Kap'yong Valley were the Patricias on Hill 677. They were alone.
With the withdrawal of the RARs, Lt.-Col. Stone moved Baker Company to his right flank overlooking the abandoned, thatch-covered huts of Naech'on village and facing the former Australian positions. It proved to be a tactically-sound decision.
About ten o'clock that night enemy mortar bombs showered Baker Company and machine-gun tracer bullets pierced the darkness with fingers of light, indicating the enemy assault route. Amidst the cacophony of Chinese bugles, whistles and exploding mortar bombs, the enemy stormed Baker Company's forward platoon throwing grenades into the trenches as they advanced. The stutter of Chinese burp guns and the scream of flying shrapnel added to the din. The air hung heavy with the acrid smell of battle. The defenders fought fiercely, but overwhelmed by numbers, the platoon withdrew farther into the company perimeter and prepared for a counterattack which was ultimately and successfully executed.
While Baker Company was under fire a party of 100 Chinese attempted to probe tactical headquarters. The battalion’s 81 mm mortars combined with withering fire from .50 calibre and .30 calibre machine guns drove them off the hill.
Elements of the CCF attempted to ford the river below the Canadian positions. They were easy targets in the moonlight. Over 70 died and bloodied the waters of the Kap'yong.
The men of Baker Company held their positions while the Chinese kept coming, hundreds at a time. With fixed bayonets the Patricias desperately fought on through the night.
About 1 a.m. April 25, a Dog Company platoon was attacked from three sides by large numbers of enemy troops. Two Patricias manning a Vickers machine-gun where killed. Waves of Chinese spilled into the company area. It was hand-to-hand-fight-for-your-life combat. Dog Company was on the verge of being overrun. The company commander, Capt. Wally Mills, requested that artillery be fired on his own positions. The New Zealand gunners obliged. The defenders hugged the bottom of their trenches while artillery shells roared in overhead. The shells scoured everything above ground level, driving off the Chinese. But they returned. More artillery fire followed. 2300 rounds hammered Dog Company positions.
There were many acts of heroism that night. Pte. Ken Barwise single-handedly recaptured the Vickers machine gun lost to the enemy early in the firefight, then took down a number of the enemy advancing towards him. Pte. Wayne Mitchell, a Bren gunner, used the light machine-gun with devastating effect on the enemy. Despite being wounded twice, he fought on even though weak from loss of blood. He was eventually evacuated. L/Cpl. Smiley Douglas, attempted to throw a live grenade out of harm's way to save injury to men in his section. He wasn't quite quick enough. He lost a hand. Ken Campbell, a Dog Company section commander at the time, was severely wounded in a firefight with Chinese swarming his positions. First, three burp gun slugs hit him in the shoulder. He fell, then took two more in the back. One bullet lodged in the lining of his heart; two others collapsed a lung. He eventually recovered.
Before first light April 25, the CCF ceased their assault on Hill 677 and withdrew. The day dawned clear and quiet. The supply route to the rear was held by the enemy. The battalion was cut off from other UN troops and their reserve supply of ammunition and rations were depleted. An airdrop was requested. Six hours later, at 10:30 a.m., four U.S. C-119 "flying boxcars" lumbered over the PPCLI positions at 200 feet and jettisoned parachutes bearing supplies.
With supplies replenished, the battalion prepared for the resumption of fighting. However, the two regiments of the CCF — totalling 6,000 men — that had entered the Kap’yong Valley had been badly mauled by the Australians, Canadians and their supporting arms and they did not return to Hill 677. The Battle of Kap’yong was over. Supply lines were opened and UN Forces subsequently re-established its lines and pushed the CFF farther to the north. Seoul would not be threatened again.
The PPCLI casualties were amazingly light – 10 killed, 23 wounded – considering the viciousness of the fighting and the Chinese troops’ overwhelming numerical advantage. Post-battle military analysis and historian hindsight determined that the PPCLI success at Kap’yong was due to a number of factors. Many of the 2nd Battalion officers and NCOs were battle-experienced Second World War veterans. As a battalion they had trained hard in Canada as well as in Korea and had been blooded in action prior to Kap’yong. The men were in excellent physical condition, well-disciplined with good morale and, determined to maintain the traditions of their regiment that had won battle honours in the First and Second World Wars. The Chinese, although having numerical superiority, entered killing grounds of Hill 677 through valleys, re-entrants and other approaches which were inter-locked by machine gun, mortar and artillery fire tasks. Also, by the time the Chinese entered the Kap’yong Valley in their rush to recapture Seoul, they had outdistanced their supply lines. This, coupled with heavy casualties, no doubt reduced their will to continue fighting at that time.
The actions of 3rd Battalion Royal Australian Regiment, A Company 72nd U.S. Heavy Tank Battalion and, ultimately standing alone, 2nd Battalion Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry, prevented the Chinese Communist Forces from exploiting their breach of United Nations lines. These three units under UN Command were each awarded a United States Presidential Unit Citation.
The award reads in part: ". . . recognition of outstanding heroism and exceptionally meritorious conduct in the performance of outstanding services . . ."
The PPCLI is the only Canadian unit to ever receive this award."...
http://www.kvacanada.com/stories_rskap'yong.htm
The 2nd Bn PPCLI wear the blue bar on their uniforms to this day.
From the WW1 onwards Canadians and Australians go into an operational theatre knowing that we're most likely going to be outmanned, outgunned and probably on the sharp end, happens all the time. At Kapyong the ratio was 15 to 1.
Ukraine's military has now joined that club as well.
Canadians or Australians have never to my knowledge presumed what we were doing was considered to be along the lines of a 'speed bump'. That's a seriously defeatist attitude in my book.
Brass
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No I don't but I think he could get a corridor at least to Crimea and hold it. Lend lease is a moot point. It's Ukraine's much smaller Army and tiny Air Force against Putin's much larger Army and Air Force.
Israel's much smaller Army and tiny Air Force against the Arab's much larger Army and Air Force. . . . history repeating?
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Oooo, you are calling the Prez using the N-word. I knew it, you racist.
I never called the President a Nigger. I explained UT why. You on the other hand . . .
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I want you to read something. The following isn't fantasy, it's history. If you believe that you're a 'speed bump' then that's more than likely what you'll end up being. In my opinion this reference to being a 'speed bump' is more a state of mind than anything else. It's not a military strategy or government policy and it has no place in a soldiers way of thinking...
From the WW1 onwards Canadians and Australians go into an operational theatre knowing that we're most likely going to be outmanned, outgunned and probably on the sharp end, happens all the time. At Kapyong the ratio was 15 to 1.
Ukraine's military has now joined that club as well.
Canadians or Australians have never to my knowledge presumed what we were doing was considered to be along the lines of a 'speed bump'. That's a seriously defeatist attitude in my book.
Brass
Nice post BC-- looking at numbers alone is misleading as BC points out.The Ukrainians have repeatedly shown real guts -- combined with improved technique and good morale ,plus they are highly motivated who knows what is possible.None of that is to say that help in every way is not needed.
Re numbers-- in more recent times Australian forces in Iraq & Afghanistan have been caught outnumbered and have been successfull in various actions-- another theatre at another time where an Australian force was heavily outnumbered--
Quote
Battle of Long Tan
Heavily outnumbered but supported by strong artillery fire, D Company held off a regimental assault before a relief force of cavalry and infantry fought their way through and forced the Viet Cong to withdraw. Eighteen Australians were killed and 24 wounded, while the Viet Cong lost at least 245 dead which were found over the days that followed. A decisive Australian victory, Long Tan proved a major local setback for the Viet Cong, indefinitely forestalling an imminent movement against Nui Dat and challenging their previous domination of Phuoc Tuy Province. Although there were other large-scale encounters in later years, 1 ATF was not fundamentally challenged again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Long_Tan
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If at some point in the future if the Russian forces reverted back to divisional command structures after spending years reforming/reorganizing their ground forces to the Brigade format I'd be surprised but anything's possible.
Brass, I don't know why you're determined to prove Russia has no divisions. They still have units assigned as divisions and the divisions they split up into brigades can easily be reorganized into divisions again in the event of major war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_%28military%29
The overall size of the 395,000-strong force was also reduced to the current 270,000, [/b] alongside reserve forces and capabilities designed on a similar basis to the US"...
The guy you're quoting seems to underestimate not only Russia's tank strength but troop strength too. Russia's active and inactive troop strength in the link below and a recent audit confirming how many troops are on Russia's payroll. It's a lot more than your man is claiming. If Russia can under claim the amount of nukes they own, they can do the same everywhere else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_military_and_paramilitary_personnel
http://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/766055/
Two divisions actually but who's counting.
A division can have 10,000-30,000 troops. One, two, or three divisions could be stationed in Korea depending how the military wants to classify it. When I said it could be one division based on number of troops, I wasn't wrong. Does it really matter what you want to call it? 30,000 troops is 30,000 troops.
I'm not aware of the state of American service personnel moral in Korea but it would seem placing 30,000 personnel in harm's way as a "speed bump" would be akin to a policy of gross criminal negligence by the U.S. government. Something I doubt would be institutionalized over seven or eight successive administrations. Sorry Billy but I'm not buying your interpretation of this at all.
Do you think AC's CO was lying to him? Do you think the troops I've spoke to were lying to me? Brass, have you ever been in the military? Do you understand what the odds are of 30,000 troops beating a force of 1,000,000,000 troops? Government's criminal negligence? Everybody who signs up for the military realizes they could be placed in harms way. If 30,000 American troops could stop a million man army, why does South Korea need one of the largest armies in the world consisting of their own people working for them? A little American force has got them covered. Below is the mission of American soldiers in South Korea. Nowhere does it say it is designed to dominate a fight with North Korea. One of their missions is to assist in evacuating citizens. In other words, assist in a retreat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Forces_Korea
Russia's not ready for an all out knock down drag out at this point as evidenced by the scramble to reorganize, re equip, re arm to a modern army.
Who in Europe is better prepared than America for all out war? The facts are we know Europe has been closing it's weapons factories and America has been downsizing it's military the last few years while Russia's military has been growing and modernizing. Maybe Putin isn't planning on using any of that equipment and increasing the size of his army? Maybe it's all to stroke his ego?
Yes, they can do the local regional conquest thing but not take on NATO conventionally or strategically. Russia might make initial gains but would eventually lose them.
I don't think Russia will win a world war either but until America's mainland army shows up in Europe, Russia can destroy the lives of a lot of people and economies of a lot of nations. There is no one nation in Europe that can take on Russia one on one. NATO is more disorganized and poorly led than you think. They couldn't do a good job against lowly Libya and don't meet commitments in other places of the world. Carefully read the article below. I don't know why you and LT are so intent on proving Russia is weak and they couldn't cause much damage and NATO is strong but I suspect Obama's main military advisor thinks more like you two than me. That is probably why Obama is proceeding with downsizing our military and reducing our role in Europe.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/11/world/europe/11gates.html
Canadians or Australians have never to my knowledge presumed what we were doing was considered to be along the lines of a 'speed bump'. That's a seriously defeatist attitude in my book.
The current American forces in South Korea are there to deter North Korea and assist South Korea in the event of a full invasion. I can assure you the commanders of the American units in South Korea aren't telling their men to be heroes and beat North Korea by themselves in the event of an invasion. Their role isn't to beat North Korea on their own and it has nothing to do about defeatist attitude.
Israel's much smaller Army and tiny Air Force against the Arab's much larger Army and Air Force. . . . history repeating?
Pound for pound, Israel soldiers are some of the best in the world. Arab forces aren't even close to being as good as Russia's. Arab isn't Russia and Ukraine isn't Israel. The David vs Goliath story isn't going to work for Ukraine if Russia sends a full invasion. Ukraine needs help.
Go Seahawks
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Ukraine needs help.
No one is denying that.
What BC is saying--(& others!!! :) ) --- is do not overestimate Russia's capabilities-- and do not underestimate Ukraine's !!
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No one is disputing they don't need help. All of us agree that need war material. I even suggested where they could get it for real cheap - the Sierra Army Depot. :offtopic: The managers there are guilty of stealing war material and selling it privately.
My point is that maskirovka is an important part of Soviet their doctrine. Call their bluff. Unless their proxy states use Nukes, Oil prices are headed sub-40 and they cannot re-supply or pay forces already deployed worldwide.
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Pound for pound, Israel soldiers are some of the best in the world.
Not in 1948
Arab forces aren't even close to being as good as Russia's.
Truck loads of dead Russians and thousands of motherless parents would say otherwise. I don't think Arab losses stand up to Russian loses in this war.
Arab isn't Russia and Ukraine isn't Israel.
You don't understand that Ukraine makes weapons too and can adapt Western technology with Soviet and Post-Soviet war material just as the Jews did.
The David vs Goliath story isn't going to work for Ukraine if Russia sends a full invasion.
Let's say you are right. What happens if they send their 20 divisions and divide Ukraine like a cake? What do you think the appetite for sanctions or even overt or covert action against Russia would be? What happens if they send their 20 divisions and divide the Baltics like a cake?
Go Seahawks
ugh
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My point is that maskirovka is an important part of Soviet their doctrine. Call their bluff. Unless their proxy states use Nukes, Oil prices are headed sub-40 and they cannot re-supply or pay forces already deployed worldwide.
Totally agree with calling the bluff--I have said that is a necessary part of putting Russia in it's place in all this.
Putin will go far past the point of common sense-- so namby pamby approach only encourages him that he can still get what he wants.That is also why the west needs to be very clear--only 105% of what is wanted is acceptable-- have the crisis now--or a much bigger one later.
Internally--Putin is closer everyday to his demise-time is working against him now-- he can only sustain the lies to the Russian people for so long and everyday more information is seeping through-- when enough start asking questions Putins Kremlin cohorts will remove him-one way or another.That will not solve the problem as such-- quite possible to get even crazier leader than Putin-- and that is why the west needs to be really firm in what it will accept.
Meanwhile-- the news Russia does not want just gets worse & worse--
What's behind the oil price rout
"In the meantime, prices will come down further. While there may be some daily ups and downs, a few analysts are tipping prices to fall as low as $US20."
http://www.theage.com.au/business/explainer-whats-behind-the-oil-price-rout-20150108-12jomm.html
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Brasscasing nowhere did I refer to my unit or the various military units in the country I was in as being "speedbumps" and neither did our Commander or any other officer. We were just given a realistic and sobering assessment to keep us on our toes. I'm sure the guys in Korea or wherever know the odds and they might joke about it when out drinking or whatever so no harm in that. That's different then a defeatist attitude however we all have our own perceptions.
I enjoy reading you and BillyB going back and forth hope you continue.
The time for the West to give Ukraine the defensive weapons they need is closing fast.
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:offtopic:
"speedbumps"
We heard the same thing from guys coming back from Korea. The problem with this assumption that the enemy has the capability that he brags about is rather obvious and prevents the consideration of offensive operations in North Korea with the forces available should the opportunity present itself.
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I always thought about us as speed-bumps in Korea. My squadron did temporary times there in the 70s. They told us at the start that if there was a war between the North and South it would all be over in a few minutes with the 1st strike probably the victor. Not a matter of defeatist thought as much as realistically dead.
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That was the 70's with the Soviet Union and China behind them. Certainly times have changed . . .
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I always thought about us as speed-bumps in Korea. My squadron did temporary times there in the 70s. They told us at the start that if there was a war between the North and South it would all be over in a few minutes with the 1st strike probably the victor. Not a matter of defeatist thought as much as realistically dead.
Thanks for your testimony. More veterans should come out and tell it like it is. Some people here have this funny idea that deployed American forces, no matter how small, will stop a full scale invasion.
Politicians can pick whatever names they want for various American military deployments. They can call a $500 million in military savings in Europe the "European reassurance initiative". The only thing Europe can be reassured is that America will be spending less for their security this year than we did last year. They can call the 30,000 troops in South Korea the "Hold the line against North Korea, In Your Face Kim Jong Un, Lightning Fast Spearhead" although American troops are outnumbered 30-1. They can call the 600 troops Obama sent to Poland and the Baltics the "F U Putin Package, NATO is Truly United, Really It Is!" but some of us know small deployments of American troops won't dominate a fight in event of a full invasion until the mainland troops show up.
ugh
You'd enjoy life a lot better if you joined a winning team. Go Seahawks!
What BC is saying--(& others!!! :) ) --- is do not overestimate Russia's capabilities-- and do not underestimate Ukraine's !!
The problem is you guys are underestimating Russia's capabilities and overestimating Ukraine's and NATO's. WE don't have to speculate anymore. WE have facts. Ukraine, with numerical superiority and on home turf, can't secure their nation against a few thousand rebels and Russian troops.
Our Secretary of Defense came out and publically humiliated our NATO allies by saying they aren't pulling their weight. Most NATO members do not and never did meet their obligations of spending 2% of their GDP on security. They figure someone else will come to their rescue in event their nation will be invaded. In Afghanistan and Libya, many NATO members failed to supply the NATO military units with munitions and funding. That's how much the politicians of member nations care about the military that's doing the dangerous work the politicians requested of them. If NATO was dysfunctional in those two campaigns with America doing the bulk of the work, how do you think they'd do under an invasion by Russia? NATO will be calling America's troops to get the job done.
Once you guys accept reality, then you can vote the proper people in and pressure them to spend more on security to preserve our and our friends lives.
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You'd enjoy life a lot better if you joined a winning team. Go Seahawks!
(http://www.hypun.com/lollibs/meme_thumb_l/404753576.jpg)
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The problem is you guys are underestimating Russia's capabilities and overestimating Ukraine's and NATO's. WE don't have to speculate anymore. WE have facts. Ukraine, with numerical superiority and on home turf, can't secure their nation against a few thousand rebels and Russian troops.
No one is doing that-at least not me or BC in this thread(or others)
Your constant denigration of what the Ukrainian military achieved is wrong and misguided.There weapons have been inferior all along-you ignore that.They have been desperately short of even simple things,clothing and feeding troops for example. If vast numbers of overt Russian military had not reinforced the troops and mercenaries already there--they would have been swept out in July.They were on the verge of cutting off the lines to Russia itself back then.
The Russians have used the civilian population to hide behind-leaving Ukraine with a difficult task to remove them-- so it was not a straight forward military operation to clear them.
You also keep failing to recognise that Ukraine has had a huge reorganisation during last year--getting patriots running the show and not traitors. All that took time -- so please-- stop talking about how they were--it is not how they are now.
To repeat something I have said previously-- with the support needed--Ukraine can beat Russia here.For those that persist in misinterpreting my words--read them all!
Further-- what choice do they have but to fight?
A few here seem to think they should drop their trousers and bend over for the Russians -it is not what Ukrainians would do..
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Thanks for your testimony. More veterans should come out and tell it like it is. Some people here have this funny idea that deployed American forces, no matter how small, will stop a full scale invasion.
Holy Strawmans Batman! Billy, did FT steal your password? Show he where anyone on this forum said that if you can . . .
Politicians can pick whatever names they want for various American military deployments. They can call a $500 million in military savings in Europe the "European reassurance initiative". The only thing Europe can be reassured is that America will be spending less for their security this year than we did last year. They can call the 30,000 troops in South Korea the "Hold the line against North Korea, In Your Face Kim Jong Un, Lightning Fast Spearhead" although American troops are outnumbered 30-1. They can call the 600 troops Obama sent to Poland and the Baltics the "F U Putin Package, NATO is Truly United, Really It Is!" but some of us know small deployments of American troops won't dominate a fight in event of a full invasion until the mainland troops show up.
Foot in mouth disease outbreak in Tacoma, Billy B? Jay H is the most optimistic and supportive of NATO's role. But even he would classify NATO's response as tentative and a good first step not a satisfactory response.
The problem is you guys are underestimating Russia's capabilities and overestimating Ukraine's and NATO's.
Your characterization of this as a measure of Russia v. NATO force on force is not supported by any evidence and when I called BS and Brass told you why it was BS, you lashed out rather than support it with facts. Now Russia will escalate this conflict to raise oil prices and save his increasingly sizzling bacon (who you regard as winning this conflict [win win] btw). But Moscow cannot win this and YOU KNOW THIS.
If you are an investment broker in Switzerland, the world is exploding around you. You have a million dollar portfolio (in dollars Billy not rubles) and you have to stick with the West or invest in Russia, where are you going to stick it Billy?
WE don't have to speculate anymore. WE have facts. Ukraine, with numerical superiority and on home turf, can't secure their nation against a few thousand rebels and Russian troops.
Again wrong. We don't know what Russian troop deployments are inside Ukraine. Stop watching RT Billy.
We know the Russians have the latest equipment their military has been providing them and they are fighting a war of attrition - not blitzkrieg.
Our Secretary of Defense came out and publically humiliated our NATO allies by saying they aren't pulling their weight. Most NATO members do not and never did meet their obligations of spending 2% of their GDP on security. They figure someone else will come to their rescue in event their nation will be invaded. In Afghanistan and Libya, many NATO members failed to supply the NATO military units with munitions and funding. That's how much the politicians of member nations care about the military that's doing the dangerous work the politicians requested of them. If NATO was dysfunctional in those two campaigns with America doing the bulk of the work, how do you think they'd do under an invasion by Russia? NATO will be calling America's troops to get the job done.
Again no one disagrees with you here. The fact that you would re-use this argument here is odd. But what do you expect . . . .
Once you guys accept reality, then you can vote the proper people in and pressure them to spend more on security to preserve our and our friends lives.
Again no one is happy with NATO. I credit the success the West's efforts against Russia to two forces - the Ukrainian fighting man and the Saudis. THAT'S IT.
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No one is doing that-at least not me or BC in this thread(or others)
Your constant denigration of what the Ukrainian military achieved is wrong and misguided.There weapons have been inferior all along-you ignore that.They have been desperately short of even simple things,clothing and feeding troops for example. If vast numbers of overt Russian military had not reinforced the troops and mercenaries already there--they would have been swept out in July.They were on the verge of cutting off the lines to Russia itself back then.
The Russians have used the civilian population to hide behind-leaving Ukraine with a difficult task to remove them-- so it was not a straight forward military operation to clear them.
You also keep failing to recognise that Ukraine has had a huge reorganisation during last year--getting patriots running the show and not traitors. All that took time -- so please-- stop talking about how they were--it is not how they are now.
To repeat something I have said previously-- with the support needed--Ukraine can beat Russia here.For those that persist in misinterpreting my words--read them all!
Further-- what choice do they have but to fight?
A few here seem to think they should drop their trousers and bend over for the Russians -it is not what Ukrainians would do..
That is a really brilliant point, Jay.
So Billy, if Russia is winning this war, why is the Donestk airport still in Cyborg hands?
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(http://www.hypun.com/lollibs/meme_thumb_l/404753576.jpg)
Besides being a Cardinal fan, aren't you also a Baltimore Ravens fan? Tough year for you.
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:offtopic:
Besides being a Cardinal fan, aren't you also a Baltimore Ravens fan? Tough year for you.
I am going to Ukraine in a week. How about you?
PS
A real fan hangs with a team in losses not just victories. I know you are vet, but even vets, the really weak ones, loose their man card from time to time
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No one is doing that-at least not me or BC in this thread(or others)
Your constant denigration of what the Ukrainian military achieved is wrong and misguided.There weapons have been inferior all along-you ignore that.They have been desperately short of even simple things,clothing and feeding troops for example. If vast numbers of overt Russian military had not reinforced the troops and mercenaries already there--they would have been swept out in July.They were on the verge of cutting off the lines to Russia itself back then.
You have some serious reading comprehension problems. He has not been denigrating the Ukrainian military. He is just being honest and realistic about the fact that Russia has a larger better equipped and better trained one.
NATO is not going to insert itself so suddenly into Ukraine, that's a pipe dream. So realizing that he's only been giving honest appraisals.
You and lordtiberious can go back to your cheerleading if you want to, but somebody's got to be honest here. This is all speculation anyways. Let's hope for the best.
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You have some serious reading comprehension problems. He has not been denigrating the Ukrainian military. He is just being honest and realistic about the fact that Russia has a larger better equipped and better trained one.
NATO is not going to insert itself so suddenly into Ukraine, that's a pipe dream. So realizing that he's only been giving honest appraisals.
You and lordtiberious can go back to your cheerleading if you want to, but somebody's got to be honest here. This is all speculation anyways. Let's hope for the best.
"Let's hope for the best"
At last--you said something sensible!! :)
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"Let's hope for the best"
At last--you said something sensible!! :)
I see you changed your post. Good thinking. I also hope to meet you face to face someday. We'll see what a hot-air specialist you are then.
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You have some serious reading comprehension problems. He has not been denigrating the Ukrainian military. He is just being honest and realistic about the fact that Russia has a larger better equipped and better trained one.
NATO is not going to insert itself so suddenly into Ukraine, that's a pipe dream. So realizing that he's only been giving honest appraisals.
You and lordtiberious can go back to your cheerleading if you want to, but somebody's got to be honest here. This is all speculation anyways. Let's hope for the best.
I am getting a little bored of your insults.
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Funny how things come up --pure coincidence but spot on comment--from
Peter Shuklinov - - Ukrainian artillery - tough guys .... | Facebook
www.facebook.com
- Ukrainian artillery - tough guys. Constantly in touch with the guys from different sectors. Daily beat the enemy. However, now they work exclusively ...
.facebook.com/Zlobyn/posts/762196367195986
Peter #Shuklinov
- Ukrainian artillery - tough guys. Constantly in touch with the guys from different sectors. Daily beat the enemy. However, now they work exclusively in response to the actions of terrorists and the Russian army. After all, "truce". But if we are attacked - the course is all that is required. Do not hesitate. And do not listen to the whiners and the generals of the couch. We even now win. Although no one talks about it. "Armistice". But I can say something. Who forbid me :) Every day, dozens of militants sent to the light thanks to the actions of the Ukrainian response gunners. Each day, the enemy suffers losses. Gods of war work. And will continue to be fun. Next will be hotter. Who finds itself in Ukraine - get on the head. Do not listen to the whiners. They have never been there. They had never seen that discuss. They're just losers who through life looking for the extreme. Their front nagging will not help. And we need to believe in and support the guys. After all, we still win. PS And even now, while you lie down to rest, artillery works. And tomorrow will be too. And the day after tomorrow will work too. And with these new pieces Western guys work very well. The Russians, however, do not like. But what can you do. Neher roam. Well, the last. Off topic post. A very illustrative example Borys Filatov, who got ... Difficult Kremlin bots. I hope he changes his mind. But I understand it. Only I were younger and nerves until okay because I will simply ban. A few idiots are not adequate thousands of people who really want to know more and are willing to do something. I am writing for those who are concerned Ukraine. Who is in those 10% of the population and a huge great state who truly need this country. I admire people who do not whine and do. Poor? Wrong? Take it and do better. Take it and do, . Everything will be fine.
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best policy
We knew you'd win
Same stuff, be careful out there
oh yeah,
Sincerely :D
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Who is this new Poster, this PBRstreetg? Where is he from? What is he all about?
The world wants to know what's in your refrigerator!
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Jay H is the most optimistic and supportive of NATO's role. But even he would classify NATO's response as tentative and a good first step not a satisfactory response.
Again no one is happy with NATO.
LT, try to get it in your mind that NATO CANNOT get into this scrap! Ukraine isn't a member nor an ally of NATO's. UA cannot join until certain rules are met. While Russia is controlling part of the border and there's a war it cannot join up.
I do wish that would have 20 years ago though.
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NATO can't get involved in European security? Like the Balkans? If NATO doesn't stand for European security, what good is the Alliance? Oh BTW, who penetrated NATO airspace 400 times? Get it through your head, we are already involved. We have to decide to finish it.
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Do you understand that NATO is a 'club'? It'll only help members of that 'club'.
The Balkans are in the 'club'. Most of Europe is in the 'club'.
Ukraine isn't!
IF Russian steps on a members toes then it could have actions in Ukraine that might help in the long run.
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Do you understand that NATO is a 'club'? It'll only help members of that 'club'.
The Balkans are in the 'club'. Most of Europe is in the 'club'.
Ukraine isn't!
IF Russian steps on a members toes then it could have actions in Ukraine that might help in the long run.
The Balkans weren't originally in the club though Mike. NATO intervened and herein may lie the precedent.
Brass
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You're right! That may be the glitch that helps but I'm not holding my breath.
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No, none joined until after the wars in the Balkans.
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I just did a quick check at Wiki and got this right off the bat that explains it.
"NATO's first involvement in both the Bosnian War and the Yugoslav wars in general came in February 1992, . when the alliance issued a statement urging all the belligerents in the conflict to allow the deployment of United Nations peacekeepers. While primarily symbolic, this statement paved the way for later NATO actions."
Russia wouldn't allow this and neither would the terrorists.
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Were I Putin, I'd invite NATO into Ukraine, to Moldova, and into Georgia. Then join myself.
Checkmate.
PS...NATO is one of those "clubs" that if it isn't careful, will grow too large. At some point such a "club" becomes too big and unable to confront even small challenges due to internal bickering, lack of contributions, etc. It may be close to that already.
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PS...NATO is one of those "clubs" that if it isn't careful, will grow too large. At some point such a "club" becomes too big and unable to confront even small challenges due to internal bickering, lack of contributions, etc. It may be close to that already.
Sort of like the UN has become? ;)
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@AkMike agree
also I'm a little bit worried for this country
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Do you understand that NATO is a 'club'? It'll only help members of that 'club'.
The Balkans are in the 'club'. Most of Europe is in the 'club'.
Ukraine isn't!
IF Russian steps on a members toes then it could have actions in Ukraine that might help in the long run.
I am not impressed with you either Mike and if you are not going to respond to my points, insult me and regurgitate your previous irrelevant points, I would just assume field questions to Doll. Say what you want about perceptions, at least she is not an ass hat.
Good luck in your search
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Brass, I don't know why you're determined to prove Russia has no divisions. They still have units assigned as divisions and the divisions they split up into brigades can easily be reorganized into divisions again in the event of major war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_%28military%29
But not 'armored divisions' Billy which was my original comment responding to your 20 armored divisions statement.
They're still in the process of reorganizing/rebuilding as one of the articles indicated and I reiterate it would surprise me if they if they did reverse a process they've been working on for years but anything's possible.
The guy you're quoting seems to underestimate not only Russia's tank strength but troop strength too. Russia's active and inactive troop strength in the link below and a recent audit confirming how many troops are on Russia's payroll. It's a lot more than your man is claiming. If Russia can under claim the amount of nukes they own, they can do the same everywhere else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_military_and_paramilitary_personnel
http://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/2013/10/31/766055/
These links are referring to the entire Russian military establishment including everything from cadets to civilian contractors on the payroll in your one source, Billy.
Ground forces are estimated to be as below which is exactly what my original links quoted...
"Russian Ground Forces
Size
285,000 personnel (2014), incl est 80,000 conscripts"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Ground_Forces
A division can have 10,000-30,000 troops. One, two, or three divisions could be stationed in Korea depending how the military wants to classify it. When I said it could be one division based on number of troops, I wasn't wrong. Does it really matter what you want to call it? 30,000 troops is 30,000 troops.
I suppose. Wasn't meant as a jab.
Do you think AC's CO was lying to him? Do you think the troops I've spoke to were lying to me? Brass, have you ever been in the military? Do you understand what the odds are of 30,000 troops beating a force of 1,000,000,000 troops? Government's criminal negligence? Everybody who signs up for the military realizes they could be placed in harms way. If 30,000 American troops could stop a million man army, why does South Korea need one of the largest armies in the world consisting of their own people working for them? A little American force has got them covered. Below is the mission of American soldiers in South Korea. Nowhere does it say it is designed to dominate a fight with North Korea. One of their missions is to assist in evacuating citizens. In other words, assist in a retreat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Forces_Korea
Based on Bag's, AC's and your comments, no I don't think you're lying. I just think it's a disheartening state of affairs that the general perception by the Americans who've served in Korea that they're considered or consider themselves speed bumps. I'll amend the word to read I maintain it's an 'unsafe' attitude for personnel to have when serving in an operational theatre.
Have I ever been in the military? Served 20 years, retired.
And you?
Who in Europe is better prepared than America for all out war? The facts are we know Europe has been closing it's weapons factories and America has been downsizing it's military the last few years while Russia's military has been growing and modernizing. Maybe Putin isn't planning on using any of that equipment and increasing the size of his army? Maybe it's all to stroke his ego?
I don't equate one to the other, Billy. Yes, there have been cutbacks, closures and downsizing but Russia itself has had a few cutbacks, closures and downsizing over the years (like the collapse of their entire military complex after the cold war) as well.
The media has perpetuated the fear and doom line that just because Russia says they're modernizing *poof*, they're modernized. Not so. Even the Russian estimates are 2020 before they feel capable of being on par with the West. Russia's military is not capable [edit: to include at this time] of taking on NATO in any meaningful way.
I don't think Russia will win a world war either but until America's mainland army shows up in Europe, Russia can destroy the lives of a lot of people and economies of a lot of nations. There is no one nation in Europe that can take on Russia one on one. NATO is more disorganized and poorly led than you think. They couldn't do a good job against lowly Libya and don't meet commitments in other places of the world. Carefully read the article below. I don't know why you and LT are so intent on proving Russia is weak and they couldn't cause much damage and NATO is strong but I suspect Obama's main military advisor thinks more like you two than me. That is probably why Obama is proceeding with downsizing our military and reducing our role in Europe.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/11/world/europe/11gates.html
Again, fear mongering, Billy. No one nation is required to take on Russia one to one (although the UK would be more than capable). Even without NATO western Europe (or our two countries) wouldn't stand by while Russia gobbled up Europe one country at a time.
I see nothing to fundamentally disagree with in your article. However, it's nothing new. We saw this rhetoric with Iraq, Afghanistan and the myriad of smaller conflicts before and since. It still gets done.
The current American forces in South Korea are there to deter North Korea and assist South Korea in the event of a full invasion. I can assure you the commanders of the American units in South Korea aren't telling their men to be heroes and beat North Korea by themselves in the event of an invasion. Their role isn't to beat North Korea on their own and it has nothing to do about defeatist attitude.
In the ten minutes I took to look research Korea (learning curve so bear with me).
I note that the U.S. Commanding General is not only in command of 28,500 U.S. servicemen, he's the de facto operational commander of the ROK forces totaling 620,000 as well. Further, (which was news to me) the UN mandate is still active making him the UN force operational commander, a la Gen. MacArthur, as well with an Australian commander 2i/c ing that show from Japan.
The North Koreans are reported to have 1.2 million on their side of the fence, that's not a huge disparity in numbers for prepared, well fortified defenses.
So, it's not as though they're alone. That aside it has nothing to do with making heroes what it has to do with is moral, combat effectiveness, command and control, the firm conviction that what your doing is important and relevant and arguably most importantly that you're not being placed in a no win situation or thrown away. Even volunteers of a high risk mission understand there is a quantifiable chance of meeting the objective.
Brass
[/quote]
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I just did a quick check at Wiki and got this right off the bat that explains it.
"NATO's first involvement in both the Bosnian War and the Yugoslav wars in general came in February 1992, . when the alliance issued a statement urging all the belligerents in the conflict to allow the deployment of United Nations peacekeepers. While primarily symbolic, this statement paved the way for later NATO actions."
Russia wouldn't allow this and neither would the terrorists.
Agreed. So it once again would become a coalition of the willing (for a Ukraine intervention not an article 5).
Brass
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That aside it has nothing to do with making heroes what it has to do with is moral, combat effectiveness, command and control, the firm conviction that what your doing is important and relevant and arguably most importantly that you're not being placed in a no win situation or thrown away. Even volunteers of a high risk mission understand there is a quantifiable chance of meeting the objective.
Brass
On the morale question--I have commented previously that Ukrainians at large-- and particularly in the military have gathered confidence and improved morale considerably over the course of last year .I wonder where all those posters who tried to tell us that Ukrainians would not fight are now?
From yesterday--
Soldiers Battalion "Donbass" ask to send them to the zone ATO (VIDEO)
Sunday, January 11, 2015
Soldiers Battalion Donbass staged a march in Kiev on demand send them to the counter-terrorist operation zone.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anq-4lDy_yc
http://www.hromadske.tv/society/biitsi-batalionu--donbas--vimagayut-vidpraviti-yik/
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Ukraine doesn't need NATO intervention but they need NATO weaponry - even old Army surplus which I can assure we have acres of this stuff. They have enough intellect and creativity to adapt these weapons for their purposes. If NATO or even the US unilaterally to supply them, the Ukrainian military could push the Rusky out and even invade and hold Moscow. That's not pie in the sky thinking Billy B, that is their combat record since Slaviansk.
NATO is already engaged in a conflict with Russia with all these air to air incursions. One more incursion anywhere and NATO should invoke Article 5.
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More on attitudes and morale of Ukrainians--
Only 10% of respondents believe that the "fight for Donbass does not make sense"
facebook.com/ato.news 62.8% of Ukrainian confident that fight for Donbass makes sense
These are the results of a survey conducted by the Kiev International Institute of Sociology in order ZN.UA. In particular, this view is 57.5% in the East and 36.1% (total) in the Donetsk and Lugansk regions. According to the survey, 47.5% of respondents believe that the fight for Donbass necessary because "it - the territory of Ukraine, where Ukrainian citizens live."
Most popular this view is not in Galicia and in the Dnipropetrovsk region - 67.1%, and least-Donetsk region - 20.7%.
However, according to the survey, only 10% of respondents believe that the "fight for Donbass does not make sense, because most people who live there want to secede from Ukraine, and our soldiers have to die senselessly."
In addition, as the poll, supporters need to fight, first of all, Ukrainian and Ukrainian citizens in more than 4 times more than those who believe that "if we pass the Donbass, Russia it will not stop and will continue "(in this version voted 11.2% of respondents).
However, according to the survey, ready to fight for the Ukrainian Donbass 12 times more than those who justify the need for further wars resource need of the region (4.1%).
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/kozhen-drugiy-ukrayinec-vpevneniy-scho-viyna-za-donbas-neobhidna-socopituvannya-401933.html
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Ground forces are estimated to be as below which is exactly what my original links quoted...
"Russian Ground Forces
Size
285,000 personnel (2014), incl est 80,000 conscripts"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Ground_Forces
I showed you a wiki link showing you Russian active duty personnel of over 750,000 based off the IISS think tank and an audit of paid military personnel. The numbers in your wiki link is claim to be from IISS think tank too. IISS also said Russia has an extra 2 million reserve soldiers and 474,000 paramilitary which adds up to 3.2 million available to fight for Russia. The link you provided states Russia has over 15,000 tanks which is a number you didn't believe earlier. Believe now? 15,000 tanks could easily be assigned to over 20 divisions. The math isn't that hard.
I don't why you are trying to minimize Russia's forces. It's no surprise they are one of the more aggressive nations in the world and it shouldn't be a surprise they possess a large military. So what is some is on reserve. America has equipment and personnel on reserve too but when it's time for a world war style war, Russia and America have plenty of equipment already produced and available and the factories to produce much more. Units you think don't exist do exist and will be reactivated.
And you?
Army
In the ten minutes I took to look research Korea (learning curve so bear with me).
I note that the U.S. Commanding General is not only in command of 28,500 U.S. servicemen, he's the de facto operational commander of the ROK forces totaling 620,000 as well.
Of course South Korea has it's own army but most Americans stationed there are near the demilitarized zone. They are there to help deter North Korea from invading and show support for South Korea. They were not designed to win a fight with North Korea.
No one nation is required to take on Russia one to one (although the UK would be more than capable).
If England can beat Europe's biggest threat, Russia, alone then America is not needed in Europe. England along with it's fellow Western European nations should have it easily taken care of. You might want to research the amount of personnel and equipment England has before letting bias against Russia cloud your judgment and favor our friends.
Even without NATO western Europe (or our two countries) wouldn't stand by while Russia gobbled up Europe one country at a time.
NATO countries will stand idle temporarily while Poland and the Baltics are consumed. Russia already proved when they place massive troop buildups on the border of Ukraine, NATO doesn't match troop buildups on their borders so NATO would be unprepared. If Germany, England and France sends their forces in before America's mainland troops show up, that would be stupid. What would be the rush for them to do that when they know America will eventually show up for the fight? Before entering the fight, NATO will give Russia warnings to leave before entering the battle just as we did a weaker country named Iraq when they occupied Kuwait. NATO's first option will be to avoid a fight before fighting to liberate their member nations. Western European nations aren't prepared for a major fight as much as you want to believe. They have a habit of not taking security seriously by underfunding their militaries and failing to perform their duties in recent missions.
If Putin lets his anger get the better of him and he decides to roll into Poland and the Baltics, he doesn't face much risk in losing Russia. NATO, with America's mainland troops, will eventually win and liberate Poland and the Baltics but we will not go into Russia. They have too many tactical nukes that will do serious damage to our armies and I'm sure Putin will threaten to use them before losing Russia. The West is too kind anyway. If we can give Saddam Insane a second chance, surely we will give a more dangerous Putin a second chance before entering Russia costing massive amounts of lives should Putin cross the line. In the event of war, I don't see Russia losing their country even if America kicks Russia's azz.
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1/NATO countries will stand idle temporarily while Poland and the Baltics are consumed.
2/If Germany, England and France sends their forces in before America's mainland troops show up, that would be stupid. What would be the rush for them to do that when they know America will eventually show up for the fight?
3/Before entering the fight, NATO will give Russia warnings to leave before entering the battle just as we did a weaker country named Iraq when they occupied Kuwait. NATO's first option will be to avoid a fight before fighting to liberate their member nations
.4/ Western European nations aren't prepared for a major fight as much as you want to believe. They have a habit of not taking security seriously by underfunding their militaries and failing to perform their duties in recent missions.
5/If Putin lets his anger get the better of him and he decides to roll into Poland and the Baltics, he doesn't face much risk in losing Russia.
6/NATO, with America's mainland troops, will eventually win and liberate Poland and the Baltics but we will not go into Russia. They have too many tactical nukes that will do serious damage to our armies and I'm sure Putin will threaten to use them before losing Russia.
7/The West is too kind anyway. If we can give Saddam Insane a second chance, surely we will give a more dangerous Putin a second chance before entering Russia costing massive amounts of lives should Putin cross the line.
8/In the event of war, I don't see Russia losing their country even if America kicks Russia's azz.
I broke this up as an easier way to see what you are saying--
Replies!!
1/ Chances are a declaration of war from Nato countries--PLUS allies worldwide would accompany any invasion--it is in fact what the treaty does--not leave any one country alone to defend themselves.
2/ Gearing up would be by all--not one or two
3/ Any warnings would be prior to any Russian invasion--not after
4/ Not sure who is saying they are that prepared-- but-- be assured--they are taking it very seriously right now
5/ Putin is in grave danger of losing Russia-- there is every chance that current events will lead to the break up of Russia itself
6/ Any use of nuclear weapons will guarantee Russia's destruction
7/Lessons do get learnt-that is a learnt lesson.If it is an extreme escalation-- there will be little chance of second opportunity
8/See answer 5/ Putins demise and the fallout could well be the start of the break up.
BB--your crystal ball is cracked in too many places!! :) :rolleyes:
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BB-- you also forgot to factor in this --
In Lviv grandmother took up the machine to protect the country
In the network appeared photos of military training in Zhidachiv. In the photo next to the courageous men and significantly grandmother in scarf, jacket and weapons in the hands
Mrs., that's 68 years working with all other participants in training at the same level, running, crawling, worked in rozviddozori, shot, lying down, standing up from his knees, changing sectors and transitions between racks, moving tactical step, carried out the collection, disassemble AKM, gear shop. On foot training came from a neighboring village, 5 km. Never miss exercise or redo it ... "- wrote on his Facebook page volunteer Natalia Ishchenko.
http://espreso.tv/news/2015/01/12/na_lvivschyni_babusya_vzyalasya_za_avtomat__schob_zakhyschaty_krayinu_foto
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And More BB !!
The battalion Azov reported the destruction of about 170 Russian military
The battalion reported two divisions teams in other parts of the Russian-Ukrainian border
Destroyed about 170 Russian soldiers who were firing in the direction of the Azov-Mariupol.
As reported on page Euromaidan in Facebook , ATO forces attacked positions of Russian troops in Dokuchaevsk Donetsk region.
"Yesterday we covered 439 positions reactive Brigade Dokuchaevsk. According to preliminary data, completely destroyed one division. The loss of up to 170 people," - said in a statement.
The battalion noted that the weapons of the unit represented by 300-mm multiple rocket launchers Smerch, presumably part of Division - 4 rocket systems (consisting of three battalions of the brigade Twister and all - 12 units).
Presumably, the other two division teams are located in other parts of the Russian-Ukrainian border, the report says.
"439 Guards rocket artillery brigade Perekopskaya Order of Kutuzov in / h 69673 Southern Military District, based in the Astrakhan region, in Znamensk near Kapustin Yar missile," - said in a statement.
According Azov, armed brigade consists of 12 units of 300-mm MLRS Smerch (9A52) and 21 units of 220-mm MLRS Hurricane.
http://nvua.net/ukraine/v-batalone-azov-soobshchili-ob-unichtozhenii-poryadka-170-rossiyskih-voennyh--19955.html
MORE__
Granite company destroyed Assault Regiment Armed Forces, 55 killed - source
This information is published in the account "Chechen center" in Twitter.
"In the villages Granite (Donbass) 108th Airborne company of mining and assault regiment of Russian Armed Forces completely destroyed! 55 killed!" - Said in a statement.
Earlier, a group of "IS" reported that in the area of anti-terrorist operations continue to grow the number of attacks by terrorists. Starting from 18 o'clock last night, the illegal armed groups fired 22 times our military positions, including heavy weapons.
In villages Granite (Donbass) 108th Airborne company mining and assault regiment of Russian Armed Forces completely destroyed! 55 killed! pic.twitter.com/J1bOINrZpw
- Chechen Center (ChechenCenter) January 11, 2015
http://24today.net/open/268689
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Ukrainian military will take part in 11 international exercises required for entry into NATO
Upcoming exercises will be the final stage of combat training, which contribute to the active implementation of standards in their activities of member countries of the Alliance
The Defense Ministry said that the armed forces of Ukraine this year will participate in 11 international exercises, seven of which will be abroad, 4 - on the Ukrainian territory.
"In 2015, the Armed Forces of Ukraine will take part in 11 joint land, sea and air international exercises", - said Assistant Secretary of Defense Victoria Kushnir at a briefing in Kyiv on Monday, reports Interfax-Ukraine .
According to her, these exercises will be the final stage of combat training, which contribute to the active implementation of standards in their activities of NATO member countries.
Among these teachings will be the largest Ukrainian-US exercises Sea Breeze Navy and Army troops Rapid Trident, which will be held on the territory of Ukraine. Abroad will doctrine Navy Trident Juncture.
http://nvua.net/ukraine/ukrainskie-voennye-primut-uchastie-v-11-mezhdunarodnyh-ucheniyah-neobhodimyh-dlya-vstupleniya-v-nato-minoborony-29005.html
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Billy, you have consistently overestimated Russian power and have been wrong every time. Defeatism?
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Ukrainian military will take part in 11 international exercises required for entry into NATO
Upcoming exercises will be the final stage of combat training, which contribute to the active implementation of standards in their activities of member countries of the Alliance
The Defense Ministry said that the armed forces of Ukraine this year will participate in 11 international exercises, seven of which will be abroad, 4 - on the Ukrainian territory.
"In 2015, the Armed Forces of Ukraine will take part in 11 joint land, sea and air international exercises", - said Assistant Secretary of Defense Victoria Kushnir at a briefing in Kyiv on Monday, reports Interfax-Ukraine .
According to her, these exercises will be the final stage of combat training, which contribute to the active implementation of standards in their activities of NATO member countries.
Among these teachings will be the largest Ukrainian-US exercises Sea Breeze Navy and Army troops Rapid Trident, which will be held on the territory of Ukraine. Abroad will doctrine Navy Trident Juncture.
http://nvua.net/ukraine/ukrainskie-voennye-primut-uchastie-v-11-mezhdunarodnyh-ucheniyah-neobhodimyh-dlya-vstupleniya-v-nato-minoborony-29005.html
In no way does this mean that Ukraine is to be admitted into NATO. It just means that they are adjusting their armed forces to qualify for NATO participation. There are no inferences that can be drawn from this participation.
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All this talk about the mighty Russian army/tank divisions etc etc rolling through Europe and conquering all before them.
Russian special forces troops,presumably their elite,haven't even been able to take Donetsk airport yet...after months of trying :rolleyes:
I'll take the UK and German forces to hand the Russian forces a heavy beating...if it comes to any Putler invasion of Europe.
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With news like this I almost feel sorry for the little Munchkin! :rolleyes:
:cluebat: NOT! :clapping: :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
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More for you BB--
In the Donbass there are more Russian militants than ATO forces
Reuters In Donbass increased the number of militants today, January 12, the chairman of the Verkhovna Rada Committee on National Security and Defence Sergey Pashinsky said that for the first time in the area ATO number of militants and the Russian military has exceeded the number of Ukrainian units.
According to UNIAN , he said that in the last week dramatically worsened the situation in the zone of ATO. According to him, "first recorded that the group of terrorist combat units and Russia exceeded by the number of our group."
http://24today.net/open/269122
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Destroyed about 170 Russian soldiers
http://nvua.net/ukraine/v-batalone-azov-soobshchili-ob-unichtozhenii-poryadka-170-rossiyskih-voennyh--19955.html
Russian Armed Forces completely destroyed! 55 killed!"
http://24today.net/open/268689
Stop this madness Jay! Propaganda is okay to lift the spirits of Ukrainians and give them energy to fight and win but it's wasting our time at the forum. I rarely read the links you post but I read these two and it's still meaningless. I'm not accusing the authors of lying but the authors are omitting truths. They don't mention how many Ukrainians died during these battles and it gives readers a false sense that Ukraine is dominating every fight. Not true. Also the military soldiers pictured are very clean. After a fire fight and rolling around on the ground dodging bullets, soldiers aren't clean but it makes Ukrainians proud to see soldiers looking fresh after a fight! Jay, if you want people to read what you link, be more responsible on what you link.
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Billy, you can't acknowledge the corn that Ukraine achieved significant military gains against long odds. Why? I do not know.
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Billy, you can't acknowledge the corn that Ukraine achieved significant military gains against long odds. Why? I do not know.
When Russia throws everything they got at Ukraine, only then will Ukraine face long odds. Hasn't happened yet.
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The window for that has closed. Russia can start wars but cannot finish them.
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Stop this madness Jay... Jay, if you want people to read what you link, be more responsible on what you link.
+375
Fathertime!
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Stop this madness Jay! t Jay, if you want people to read what you link, be more responsible on what you link.
BB--really--you need to read links to get updated with current views--not views created in n earlier time.
The recent links in this thread-- are making some specific points--eg-- you say Russia would roll "easily" across Ukraine-- well-- the link to 68 yo grandmother and her local militia training should have given you a clue-- all across Ukraine this type of training has and is going on.Literally millions have taken the opportunity to learn basic weapon training and some more sophisticated training.
While this may not stop Russia in itself--it would mean that the advance would be at huge cost-- and ongoing cost to occupy.
Not long ago--I had to spend forum space arguing that Ukrainians would fight- people kept posting that they would not fight-- how wrong could they have been on that?
Re the links--I post for all to read and see for themselves-- as distinct from plagiarising material -- perhaps if more on the forum did read some of those links they would better informed-- and stop wasting all our time in trying to tell us black is white.
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BB--really--you need to read links to get updated with current views--not views created in n earlier time.
The recent links in this thread-- are making some specific points--eg-- you say Russia would roll "easily" across Ukraine-- well-- the link to 68 yo grandmother and her local militia training should have given you a clue-- all across Ukraine this type of training has and is going on. Literally millions have taken the opportunity to learn basic weapon training and some more sophisticated training.
More hot air Jay. A 68 year old grandmother is not going to stop modern weapons unleashed in a fury of destruction. Hundreds of thousands of young 18 year olds willing to give their lives? If they had the proper weapons, yes. But they don't.
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More hot air Jay. A 68 year old grandmother is not going to stop modern weapons unleashed in a fury of destruction. Hundreds of thousands of young 18 year olds willing to give their lives? If they had the proper weapons, yes. But they don't.
Duh !! :mooning:
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BB--really--you need to read links to get updated with current views--not views created in n earlier time.
The recent links in this thread-- are making some specific points--eg-- you say Russia would roll "easily" across Ukraine-- well-- the link to 68 yo grandmother and her local militia training should have given you a clue-- all across Ukraine this type of training has and is going on.Literally millions have taken the opportunity to learn basic weapon training and some more sophisticated training.
While this may not stop Russia in itself--it would mean that the advance would be at huge cost-- and ongoing cost to occupy.
Not long ago--I had to spend forum space arguing that Ukrainians would fight- people kept posting that they would not fight-- how wrong could they have been on that?
Re the links--I post for all to read and see for themselves-- as distinct from plagiarising material -- perhaps if more on the forum did read some of those links they would better informed-- and stop wasting all our time in trying to tell us black is white.
Back in my day, if you had an accusation, you typically had to back it up. Billy B, you have failed to do that. Your accusation is about as valuable as your overestimates of Russian military prowess.
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If they had the proper weapons, yes. But they don't.
And who's fault is that exactly? Jay H's? Maybe the Ukrainians? Putin's? Give me a break . . .
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This is a short clip that conveys some of the emotions of Ukrainians. For those in or going to Ukraine -try and attend one of these events-or when they are leaving to go to the front-then tell us all of how your emotions are.
Look at the clip and see the strain on the faces waiting-and the relief. This is a relatively small turnout-- but it conveys the feelings clearly enough.
Some on the forum think this is some theoretical war-like a video game-- and show zero empathy or understanding of how others feel.
This Is What Happens When A Volunteer Battalion Returns From Ukraine's Front Line
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq0laZyt7-4
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I showed you a wiki link showing you Russian active duty personnel of over 750,000 based off the IISS think tank and an audit of paid military personnel. The numbers in your wiki link is claim to be from IISS think tank too. IISS also said Russia has an extra 2 million reserve soldiers and 474,000 paramilitary which adds up to 3.2 million available to fight for Russia. The link you provided states Russia has over 15,000 tanks which is a number you didn't believe earlier. Believe now? 15,000 tanks could easily be assigned to over 20 divisions. The math isn't that hard.
Your numbers reflect the entire Russian military establishment. My numbers reflect current ground force strength and that's what's relevant.
As far as your reserve numbers...Not according to the Russians, they're just reestablishing a reserve force...
Russia to introduce Army Reserve force – report
Published time: October 13, 2014 03:49
..."Russia's Ministry of Defense is planning to form Army Reserve units comprised of experienced volunteers, who will regularly undergo military training and at any moment will be ready to take arms to defend their country, Izvestia reports.
“The personnel of these units, while continuing to work at various positions in their own companies, will regularly participate in military training, and receive certain monthly payment for being enlisted in the Army Reserve,” deputy chairman of the State Duma Defense Committee, Franz Klintsevich, told Izvestia newspaper.
The recruits should be ready, Klintsevich says, to be called up to a rallying point “at any moment” to get a weapon and take their specific place in a pre-formed military unit.
The framework allowing such non-regular military units should be reflected in the two upcoming military laws, Izvestia reports.
Analysts, such as retired army colonel Victor Litovkin, believe the creation of an Army Reserve will help the army to “constantly be at the highest level of preparedness.”
“Most importantly, if hostilities begin, reservists will not be cannon meat and will be able to perform combat tasks to which they are assigned,” Litovkin told the publication. The expert added that former regular conscripts will most likely be the ones that sign up for Reservist service.
The Russian military is expected to have around one million active-duty servicemen by 2020, fully combat-ready and formed around easily deployable brigades. Russian president Vladimir Putin has committed $755 billion over the next decade to enable such reorganization, so that at least 70 percent of the Russian army is equipped with latest-generation weaponry and equipment
http://rt.com/news/195376-russian-army-reserve-units/
Now, note the last paragraph (my bolded). Brigades not divisions, the Russian military is expected to have around one million by 2020 not army or ground forces but the Russian military and finally there's that 70 percent again for re modernizing (my tank figures).
Yes my link does state 12,500 in reserve or storage. These figures are all over the internet it doesn't surprise me in the least. At one time they were accurate. It's estimated that the Soviets had 55,000 thousand tanks ranging from t-64s thru t-80s, all museum pieces now (edited to add or scrap).
This article is from 2009 and more along the lines of realistic figures I've been suggesting all along...
It's in Russian so Google translate as always is a little rough. Keeping in mind this piece is from 2009 so close to six years old now....
Tank forces during the reform of the armed forces will be reduced by 10 times
Moscow . July 1st. INTERFAX.RU - In the Armed Forces of Russia, the number of tanks will be reduced to two thousand units , "Interfax -AVN " a source in the Defense Ministry. According to him, under the reform of the Army General Staff approved orgshtatnuyu structure of armored forces in the composition of ground crews and coastal forces of the Navy. Organizational tank units will consist of two separate tank brigades and more than 20 armored battalions in the brigade of constant combat readiness
The total number of different versions of the park tanks ( T-90 , T-80 , T-72 , etc . ) Will be reduced to 2 thousand . Units. Thus, the number of tanks in comparison with 2005 will be reduced by almost 10 times .
http://www.interfax.ru/87986
A more readable opinion piece from the same year discussing the press release in more detail...
Tank force reductions or statistical juggling
"At present the Russian Army has about 22,000 tanks, including more than 15,000 at storehouses. This makes up for just over 6,000 combat-ready tanks. Permanent readiness units have between 1,000 and 1,500 tanks.
In the next ten years, army divisions will be replaced with permanent readiness brigades and battalions operating 2,000 to 2,300 combat-ready main battle tanks whose number will increase somewhat. Training units will have several hundred more tanks. Another 3,000-4,000 tanks will remain at storehouses. Consequently, the Russian Army will have a total of 6,000 to 7,000 tanks."...
http://sputniknews.com/analysis/20090703/155424380.html
So tanks but no tanks I'm sticking with my original projections. :P
I don't why you are trying to minimize Russia's forces. It's no surprise they are one of the more aggressive nations in the world and it shouldn't be a surprise they possess a large military. So what is some is on reserve. America has equipment and personnel on reserve too but when it's time for a world war style war, Russia and America have plenty of equipment already produced and available and the factories to produce much more. Units you think don't exist do exist and will be reactivated.
They do possess a large military. I'm not denying that. What they are not is invincible.
They don't possess these inflated numbers in equipment and manpower and they're mostly comprised of conscripts and contract soldiers. They're strategic forces are outdated and they're in the process of scrambling to reorganize, re equip and modernize.
Don't give them more credit than they're realistically worth, Billy. That's all I'm saying.
Of course South Korea has it's own army but most Americans stationed there are near the demilitarized zone. They are there to help deter North Korea from invading and show support for South Korea. They were not designed to win a fight with North Korea.
Well let's hope the North Koreans don't decide to invade then because I'd hate to think that close to 700,000 service personnel from three separate commands were standing opposite a hostile enemy thinking they weren't there to win the fight.
If England can beat Europe's biggest threat, Russia, alone then America is not needed in Europe. England along with it's fellow Western European nations should have it easily taken care of. You might want to research the amount of personnel and equipment England has before letting bias against Russia cloud your judgment and favor our friends.
Oh, I'm aware of British military capabilities. I've worked for and along side them in several theatres and had Brits working for me on occasion as well. Don't underestimate the UK's military, my friend. They're downright nasty when provoked.
NATO countries will stand idle temporarily while Poland and the Baltics are consumed. Russia already proved when they place massive troop buildups on the border of Ukraine, NATO doesn't match troop buildups on their borders so NATO would be unprepared. If Germany, England and France sends their forces in before America's mainland troops show up, that would be stupid. What would be the rush for them to do that when they know America will eventually show up for the fight? Before entering the fight, NATO will give Russia warnings to leave before entering the battle just as we did a weaker country named Iraq when they occupied Kuwait. NATO's first option will be to avoid a fight before fighting to liberate their member nations. Western European nations aren't prepared for a major fight as much as you want to believe. They have a habit of not taking security seriously by underfunding their militaries and failing to perform their duties in recent missions.
If Putin lets his anger get the better of him and he decides to roll into Poland and the Baltics, he doesn't face much risk in losing Russia. NATO, with America's mainland troops, will eventually win and liberate Poland and the Baltics but we will not go into Russia. They have too many tactical nukes that will do serious damage to our armies and I'm sure Putin will threaten to use them before losing Russia. The West is too kind anyway. If we can give Saddam Insane a second chance, surely we will give a more dangerous Putin a second chance before entering Russia costing massive amounts of lives should Putin cross the line. In the event of war, I don't see Russia losing their country even if America kicks Russia's azz.
I believe for the most part this is a credible synopsis as far as a timeline goes. I might not agree with some of your wording but it's a sound analysis.
I totally agree with you regarding NATO not going over Russia's borders ( not permanently or with the intention of occupying it least wise). That's not going to happen.
Brass
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How many battle ready tank brigades does Ukraine have? How many battle ready tanks would it really take Russia to get their land bridge, especially if they have air support?
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How many battle ready tank brigades does Ukraine have? How many battle ready tanks would it really take Russia to get their land bridge, especially if they have air support?
Armored warfare requires lots of logistical support - something Russia HAS NEVER done well. Ukraine has no navy and its air and land forces do not enjoy numeric parity. The Russians don't exactly have 3 to 1 odds either. It will be a war of attrition. That does not favor the aggressor. You are a military man. You know this.
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Armored warfare requires lots of logistical support - something Russia HAS NEVER done well. Ukraine has no navy and its air and land forces do not enjoy numeric parity. The Russians don't exactly have 3 to 1 odds either. It will be a war of attrition. That does not favor the aggressor. You are a military man. You know this.
My question was directed at poster Brasscasing. I will wait for his response.
Russia has never done logistical support well? That's funny but I recall them taking tanks all the way to Berlin in WWII.
And all the way to Hungary in 1956. Czechoslovakia in 1968.
Who is going to stop them if they decide to go all in? Your dreams of NATO going into Ukraine are just that -- dreams.
For a military guy you really don't display much realistic knowledge. Just a lot of hot air and bravado.
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Russia’s New Direction for Its Armed Forces
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=18729.new#new
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Who is going to stop them if they decide to go all in?
:mooning: :mooning:
AC FT
?? ?? ??
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They do possess a large military. I'm not denying that. What they are not is invincible.
Russia's military isn't totally competent or modern but they have one big advantage over NATO. They have one Chief for a lot of Indians. NATO has a lot of Chiefs and not enough Indians. NATO was incompetent during their missions in Libya and Afghanistan. They've never had a mission against foes that are much more competent and larger than what they faced in Libya and Afghanistan. It's best NATO passes the lead to America's mainland army should Russia try something.
How many battle ready tank brigades does Ukraine have? How many battle ready tanks would it really take Russia to get their land bridge, especially if they have air support?
Ukraine has a lot of tanks but Russia probably isn't selling them the parts to keep them up and running, most are outdated, and I doubt Ukraine had funds anyway for the upkeep.
http://www.globalfirepower.com/armor-tanks-total.asp
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Ukraine has a lot of tanks but Russia probably isn't selling them the parts to keep them up and running, most are outdated, and I doubt Ukraine had funds anyway for the upkeep.
http://www.globalfirepower.com/armor-tanks-total.asp
BB--this is a prime example of why you need to read posts and links provided-- I previously commented on Ukraines efforts to gear up production and repair facilities across Ukraine. Many jobs have been on offer and active recruitment of previous employee's has been going on for some time now !!
Only a day or so ago--I discussed that the money spent in all this would help the economy at large.
Like I say BB-- be careful of what was-it is not necessarily how it is now.
The T-84 is a Ukrainian main battle tank
The T-84 is the latest Ukrainian development of the T-80 series, designed by KMDB in Kharkiv. A main design objective was to make Ukraine's arms industry independent of Russia's, after resulting difficulties in fulfilling a contract to supply T-80UD tanks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-84
Kharkiv Morozov Machine Building Design Bureau
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kharkiv_Morozov_Machine_Building_Design_Bureau
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:mooning: :mooning:
AC FT
?? ?? ??
Why don't you go to Ukraine and volunteer to be in their ATO Jay, since you're so gung-ho for war? Or is it all just a bunch of hot air, from a guy who's never been in the military, doesn't believe that citizens in the USA have a right to own firearms for personal protection, and is likely an overweight bald old guy way past the age that he would be useful in any military or war?
Considering your true nature Jay I don't think it's an understatement about you being somewhat cowardly. It's not even your friends and family who are potentially going to put their lives at risk. I doubt you even speak Russian or Ukrainian anywhere near fluently, so if you go to one of these send-offs, they've got to be thinking, what is this cheerleader doing here?
Not being realistic about what they are up against is far worse then telling the truth about it. Hoping for peace while also hoping that they get some decent defensive weapons -- I call that normal.
I don't think you're normal at all, because you are so gung ho that others go to war and lose their lives. I think you're a very strange guy, and not really helpful like you might think.
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My question was directed at poster Brasscasing. I will wait for his response.
Russia has never done logistical support well? That's funny but I recall them taking tanks all the way to Berlin in WWII.
And all the way to Hungary in 1956. Czechoslovakia in 1968.
Who is going to stop them if they decide to go all in? Your dreams of NATO going into Ukraine are just that -- dreams.
For a military guy you really don't display much realistic knowledge. Just a lot of hot air and bravado.
A state sponsored terrorism against an unarmed population is not a military operation. It is cowardice. And you know they never would have reached Berlin without generous lend lease bribes from you know who.
If you really want to insult me, do it to my face. PM me. This over the internet stuff is for kids.
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Why don't you go to Ukraine and volunteer to be in their ATO Jay, since you're so gung-ho for war? Or is it all just a bunch of hot air, from a guy who's never been in the military, doesn't believe that citizens in the USA have a right to own firearms for personal protection, and is likely an overweight bald old guy way past the age that he would be useful in any military or war?
Considering your true nature Jay I don't think it's an understatement about you being somewhat cowardly. It's not even your friends and family who are potentially going to put their lives at risk. I doubt you even speak Russian or Ukrainian anywhere near fluently, so if you go to one of these send-offs, they've got to be thinking, what is this cheerleader doing here?
Not being realistic about what they are up against is far worse then telling the truth about it. Hoping for peace while also hoping that they get some decent defensive weapons -- I call that normal.
I don't think you're normal at all, because you are so gung ho that others go to war and lose their lives. I think you're a very strange guy, and not really helpful like you might think.
And what about you? Have you ever been to Ukraine? How many languages do you speak?
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Billy, NATO also has spare parts and Warsaw Pact arms it can sell to Ukraine as well as some of its newer members were Warsaw Pact members.
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I previously commented on Ukraines efforts to gear up production and repair facilities across Ukraine. Many jobs have been on offer and active recruitment of previous employee's has been going on for some time now !!
Ukraine isn't the only nation in the world that will increase production and hire in a time of conflict. Within a 5 year period the Soviet Union produced over 100,000 armored vehicles. The numbers of Russia tanks Brass and I were debating that Russia owns could be old news by now.
During WW2 Germany had better weapons, were better led, and had more experienced troops and nearly beat Russia. Stalin killed most of his intelligent officers so the army wasn't well led, yet they ended up beating back Germany on the Eastern front and ended the war as a superpower. Putin is aware Russia can come out of a major conflict stronger when all the additional manufacturing of military weapons is done.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_combat_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II
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There is a lot of talk that Russia has been sending in troops into eastern Ukraine on here and also from Ukraine sources,and yet there doesn't seem to be any calling-up of young men in Ukraine to fight.
This year i've been communicating with a girl from Nikolaev and recently also another from Dnepropetrovsk..and both told me no men from their cities are being or have been called-up to the Ukrainian Army...
Even if we say the current Ukrainian troops are perfectly capable of dealing with the current Russian troops,without having to call-up and train new recruits..i'm surprised that all men under 50 are not being called-up to at least train for the threat of a full-scale invasion from Russia... yet the local nightclubs are still full of the same young men i'm informed.
Strange behaviour for a country at war ?
It does make one wonder if the reports of Russian troops in Ukraine..and the threat of a possible Russian invasion is all a lot of BS/hype...we are talking Ukraine after all.
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There is a lot of talk that Russia has been sending in troops into eastern Ukraine on here and also from Ukraine sources,and yet there doesn't seem to be any calling-up of young men in Ukraine to fight.
This year i've been communicating with a girl from Nikolaev and recently also another from Dnepropetrovsk..and both told me no men from their cities are being or have been called-up to the Ukrainian Army...
Even if we say the current Ukrainian troops are perfectly capable of dealing with the current Russian troops,without having to call-up and train new recruits..i'm surprised that all men under 50 are not being called-up to at least train for the threat of a full-scale invasion from Russia... yet the local nightclubs are still full of the same young men i'm informed.
Strange behaviour for a country at war ?
It does make one wonder if the reports of Russian troops in Ukraine..and the threat of a possible Russian invasion is all a lot of BS/hype...we are talking Ukraine after all.
You are mistaken in the information you received from your friends. We personally have family members of young men that have been called up and deployed. In addition, all their friends in their 20's have been called up. My personal friend, a retired officer in the Ukraine Border Patrol out of Cherkassy was also called up and deployed.
I don't have time to find the links, but I do recall a directive from the government that required all age appropriate men to register and many of them have been conscripted and deployed. This included men that are currently in college and had to take a leave to serve in the military.
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And what about you? Have you ever been to Ukraine? How many languages do you speak?
How many times I've been to Ukraine is none of your concern. How many languages do you think that you speak? I have no doubt that if you do speak a bit of Russian when you are over there, the people you speak it to usually are scratching their heads after you leave and wondering what you just said.
I say that with confidence because many of us are scratching our heads and wondering WTF you were trying to say on this forum in English.
Speaking a few phrases in a foreign language is not that difficult. Speaking a foreign language entirely fluently is another matter altogether.
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Ukraine isn't the only nation in the world that will increase production and hire in a time of conflict. Within a 5 year period the Soviet Union produced over 100,000 armored vehicles. The numbers of Russia tanks Brass and I were debating that Russia owns could be old news by now.
when?
During WW2 Germany had better weapons, were better led, and had more experienced troops and nearly beat Russia. Stalin killed most of his intelligent officers so the army wasn't well led, yet they ended up beating back Germany on the Eastern front and ended the war as a superpower. Putin is aware Russia can come out of a major conflict stronger when all the additional manufacturing of military weapons is done.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_combat_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II
Wehrmacht logisticians opposed the war. The Germans also had no reserves. The Soviets had much more. Also the Soviet Union had 400 million souls under its thumb - Russia less than 140.
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Ukraine isn't the only nation in the world that will increase production and hire in a time of conflict. Within a 5 year period the Soviet Union produced over 100,000 armored vehicles. The numbers of Russia tanks Brass and I were debating that Russia owns could be old news by now.
During WW2 Germany had better weapons, were better led, and had more experienced troops and nearly beat Russia. Stalin killed most of his intelligent officers so the army wasn't well led, yet they ended up beating back Germany on the Eastern front and ended the war as a superpower. Putin is aware Russia can come out of a major conflict stronger when all the additional manufacturing of military weapons is done.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_combat_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II
My suspicion is that Ukraine has just under 1,000 tanks which are fully operational and ready for combat at this point right now as I write this. I think that this is a reasonable guess based on them previously having just over 4,000 tanks and based on the fact that Yanukovych bled the military dry by stealing funds from them or allowing his cronies to do so.
I believe that Russia has in the neighborhood of 6,000 tanks that they could assemble and throw into an invasion of Ukraine. Some are already within Ukraine and others are assembled at the hub I posted about, still others can be brought into the theater of war.
More importantly I believe that the Russians and their mercenaries in Ukraine have tank killer weapons. Whether or not any NATO countries have given Ukraine some javelins is unknown.
Now add to this situation that if Putin does send his forces into Ukraine in an all-out invasion he will also send aircraft and attack helicopters and he will have total air superiority as well as thousands of tanks.
The average Ukrainian soldier should be able to defend against up to 4 Russian soldiers (the ratio favors those who are defending their native homeland by up to 1 to 4) provided that they had equal weapons, but they don't. At least not yet. The clock is ticking and it's unknown if the USA and others will quickly provide what they need.
Hopefully all of this discussion is mere speculation and a moot point. Hopefully the economic sanctions will continue to do so much damage to the Russian economy that Mr. Putin decides not to go ahead with this venture.
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when?
Wehrmacht logisticians opposed the war. The Germans also had no reserves. The Soviets had much more. Also the Soviet Union had 400 million souls under its thumb - Russia less than 140.
Huh? Care to clarify that? You were talking about the Soviets versus the Germans.
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AC,
What he is saying that at the time of WWII, the Soviet States combined were around 400 Million. The current Russian population is around 144 million.
However, in truth, the population in 1937 was very controversial. After the Holdomor in the early 30's the population of the Soviet Union was around 168 Million in 1937. This was not the figure Stalin wanted, after preaching population growth for five years. The producers of the census were sent to gulags because they had not inflated the figures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Census_%281937%29
Where LT pulled his 400 Million from, I guess he'll have to explain.
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AC,
What he is saying that at the time of WWII, the Soviet States combined were around 400 Million. The current Russian population is around 144 million.
However, in truth, the population in 1937 was very controversial. After the Holdomor in the early 30's the population of the Soviet Union was around 168 Million in 1937. This was not the figure Stalin wanted, after preaching population growth for five years. The producers of the census were sent to gulags because they had not inflated the figures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Census_%281937%29
Where LT pulled his 400 Million from, I guess he'll have to explain.
The overall population of the Soviet Union in June 1941 was 196,716,000.00
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Soviet_Union
The overall population of Germany was 70,244,000.00
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Germany
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There is a lot of talk that Russia has been sending in troops into eastern Ukraine on here and also from Ukraine sources,and yet there doesn't seem to be any calling-up of young men in Ukraine to fight.
This year i've been communicating with a girl from Nikolaev and recently also another from Dnepropetrovsk..and both told me no men from their cities are being or have been called-up to the Ukrainian Army...
Even if we say the current Ukrainian troops are perfectly capable of dealing with the current Russian troops,without having to call-up and train new recruits..i'm surprised that all men under 50 are not being called-up to at least train for the threat of a full-scale invasion from Russia... yet the local nightclubs are still full of the same young men i'm informed.
Strange behaviour for a country at war ?
It does make one wonder if the reports of Russian troops in Ukraine..and the threat of a possible Russian invasion is all a lot of BS/hype...we are talking Ukraine after all.
CB --in the last week I posted a link --over 200,000 have been called up and first intake is due now.That is additional numbers for the coming year.
Sometimes those inside Ukraine are not always aware of everything going on-many rumours abound and get spread.
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How many battle ready tank brigades does Ukraine have? How many battle ready tanks would it really take Russia to get their land bridge, especially if they have air support?
I've read estimates as diverse as 600 plus to 1700 plus MBTs so basing those numbers on Russian tank Bn numbers (which I believe Ukraine's ground forces have adopted) anywhere from (edited to read 2 to 3 brigades). I doubt they'd be deploying in those numbers though. Probably in Bn or Regt strength at most. They don't have replacements and as far as I know a primary reserve so they need to be frugal with use.
Based on western doctrine you wouldn't commit more than 1 third available assets into the front line or FEBA (forward edge battle area) knowing that armor and crews need rest and refit, reserve units ready to plug holes breakthroughs, replace losses, etc.
As an aside and as a curiosity, what needs to be remembered is that before and for quite a while after the fall of the USSR Ukraine was the 'arsenal' of the Russian military machine.
It was Ukraine's factories rebuilding the t-72s to t-80, 84 specs and apparently, I say apparently because I can't confirm the following images as the location the photographer purports to have taken them, these factories were simply left to rot after closure.
If these graveyards still exist there is a poop load of raw material here...
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/03/article-2572149-1BFE5A0800000578-207_964x647.jpg)
(http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/03/03/article-0-1BFE823F00000578-913_964x615.jpg)
The article itself...
Perhaps they should have held on to them: Hundreds of rusting tanks abandoned in secret Ukrainian depot unveiled as Russia's armoured vehicles line its streets
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2572149/Stunning-images-huge-abandoned-tank-graveyard-Ukraine-machines-come-retirement-tensions-Russia-continue-escalate.html#ixzz3OjeCMBFM
How many tanks? Tough call. Based on available info maybe two tank Regts and adequate supporting motorized/light infantry as the leading edge.
I can't really comment with accuracy because I don't know the complete (or even accurate) tactical situation on the ground there other than what you or anyone else knows outside the people 'in the know'. Maybe it's been decided tanks aren't the right machine for the job and infantry can get the job done, who knows?
As I mentioned earlier, if it were me, I'd be as concerned with the planning and resources of what it would take to hold the area as much as the planning of the operation to take it.
The advantage for the Russians is, if they break through, they're back on supposedly friendly ground again. It's a matter of holding the flank after that.
LT's right though, the recipe for offensive numerical superiority in men and machines is at least 3 to 1. Technology has changed that ratio somewhat in certain conditions but whatever the Russians do decide you can pretty well count on that ratio.
Brass
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LT's right though, the recipe for offensive numerical superiority in men and machines is at least 3 to 1. Technology has changed that ratio somewhat in certain conditions but whatever the Russians do decide you can pretty well count on that ratio.
Brass
Very interesting article and analysis, thanks. Are you saying that the Russians need to have a numerical superiority of 3 to 1 or more to take territory, or that they already have it?
My guess is that they have numerical superiority in the range of 5 to 1 or better, in regards to fully operational tanks.
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Billy, NATO also has spare parts and Warsaw Pact arms it can sell to Ukraine as well as some of its newer members were Warsaw Pact members.
Wonderful. Some would say Poland is a hero if they supplied Ukraine with those arms and spare parts, others would say they are stupid. It would be those type of actions that may get Poland in trouble with Russia and NATO would have to come to Poland's aid. NATO may not be looking for war(trouble) but war(trouble) may come looking for them.
My guess is that they have numerical superiority in the range of 5 to 1 or better, in regards to fully operational tanks
There are other factors that need to be taken into account. There are times territory can be taken easily without firing a shot. For example, Crimea and East Ukraine would be much easier for Russia to take than West Ukraine.
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By Brasscassing's analysis, Ukraine only needs a cash infusion to pay workers to refit existing stockpiles for war service.
Billy, Poland is a NATO member, if they deploy troops in defense of Ukraine, we have to be there. And if you are going to ruffle your feathers at NATO members, get mad at Canada. They are doing more to assist Ukraine than any of us.
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Wonderful. Some would say Poland is a hero if they supplied Ukraine with those arms and spare parts, others would say they are stupid. It would be those type of actions that may get Poland in trouble with Russia and NATO would have to come to Poland's aid. NATO may not be looking for war(trouble) but war(trouble) may come looking for them.
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BB--you have not relented on your doomsday theme-now you mention Poland.Previously you harped on about Nato members not being willing or capable of responding.Of all the Nato member countries Poland is easily the best prepared-in fact they moved over 20,000 combat ready troops into position last year as the Russian threat in Ukraiine emerged.
Also of note--the Poles think they have a few historic scores to settle-and along with their Ukrainian brothers in arms-would be a highly motivated force as well as well trained.If the crisis widens and if there are to be welcomed foreign troops on Ukrainian soil it is almost certain that they would be Polish.
Another example of why your sweeping generalisations are misguided.
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By Brasscassing's analysis, Ukraine only needs a cash infusion to pay workers to refit existing stockpiles for war service.
Billy, Poland is a NATO member, if they deploy troops in defense of Ukraine, we have to be there. And if you are going to ruffle your feathers at NATO members, get mad at Canada. They are doing more to assist Ukraine than any of us.
Did he say that only a cash infusion was needed to pay workers? I don't recall him saying that although he may have implied it.
Let's look at that particular graveyard of tanks. It's got 400 tanks there. Back when the Soviets were in control the full time mechanics working there were able to work on 50 tanks a month. So if they had the full time mechanics working there (I'm sure they could get them) and if they had all the parts then it would take 8 months to get those 400 working, if everything went perfectly.
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Very interesting article and analysis, thanks. Are you saying that the Russians need to have a numerical superiority of 3 to 1 or more to take territory, or that they already have it?
My guess is that they have numerical superiority in the range of 5 to 1 or better, in regards to fully operational tanks.
In so far as whatever the operation was the advantage of numerical superiority would be a factor in launching an offensive.
It depends on the (Russian) military district's armored units. They might relocate units from other districts but my guess would be whatever that district's available resources are is what would be potentially deployed.
Brass
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BB--you have not relented on your doomsday theme-
Also of note--the Poles think they have a few historic scores to settle-and along with their Ukrainian brothers in arms-would be a highly motivated force as well as well trained.If the crisis widens and if there are to be welcomed foreign troops on Ukrainian soil it is almost certain that they would be Polish.
You don't believe a doomsday scenario is possible but you think Poland, a NATO member, is motivated to jump into the fight for personal reasons? Think about what I been posting lately. World war becomes more likely.
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You don't believe a doomsday scenario is possible but you think Poland, a NATO member, is motivated to jump into the fight for personal reasons? Think about what I been posting lately. World war becomes more likely.
BB--maybe you missed what I have been saying---in the event of a Russian setback--it is more likely than not that Putin will escalate rather than going into his shell.
Depending on the degree of escalation--chances are Ukraine will get help from the "west".
What you are disputing is the capability of the west to handle Russia in a military sense--to which my response is -- that escalation will not only lead to the removal of Russia from the mainland Ukraine-but eventually out of Crimea .
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Thanks for the replies CM and Jay .
Looks like i was being fed duff gen by the girls :)
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BB--maybe you missed what I have been saying---in the event of a Russian setback--it is more likely than not that Putin will escalate rather than going into his shell.
Depending on the degree of escalation--chances are Ukraine will get help from the "west".
What you are disputing is the capability of the west to handle Russia in a military sense--to which my response is -- that escalation will not only lead to the removal of Russia from the mainland Ukraine-but eventually out of Crimea .
I've never heard Billy dispute that the West aka NATO can handle Putin. He is saying that Poland is not going to rush into Ukraine willy nilly. They are prepared but I'm sure that diplomacy is the first choice.
Again nothing in article 5 obligates any NATO member to help Ukraine on Ukrainian soil.
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escalation will not only lead to the removal of Russia from the mainland Ukraine-but eventually out of Crimea .
That's what I've been saying but Russia losing territory won't happen until America's mainland army shows up. NATO with America can handle Russia. I seriously doubt the current punishment the West is administering on Russia is going to make Putin leave Ukraine, apologize and ask Obama to be let back in the circle of friends. Where does that leave us? Guys with big egos aren't going to back down. Escalation may be the only way to go.
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As an aside and as a curiosity, what needs to be remembered is that before and for quite a while after the fall of the USSR Ukraine was the 'arsenal' of the Russian military machine.
It was Ukraine's factories rebuilding the t-72s to t-80, 84 specs and apparently, I say apparently because I can't confirm the following images as the location the photographer purports to have taken them, these factories were simply left to rot after closure.
Brass
The graveyard photos have been confirmed from a few sources. In fact-- there are a number of places all over Ukraine where large numbers have been stored.
The problem was/is that most had not been touched in over 20 years-- and while some did just start up immediately--getting them combat ready is another issue altogether.
When the first attempts were made to use the tanks( and other machines) there were no enough mechanics and tech people to do the work-- so they started recruiting workers and tracking those previously involved in the maintenance and building processes.
It has improved in a time sense--but there are still not enough skilled workers --but my guess is they are getting a lot of exposure and are learning fast!!
They were certainly returning damaged tanks from the east for repair and to salvage parts during last year.
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That's what I've been saying but Russia losing territory won't happen until America's mainland army shows up. NATO with America can handle Russia. I seriously doubt the current punishment the West is administering on Russia is going to make Putin leave Ukraine, apologize and ask Obama to be let back in the circle of friends. Where does that leave us? Guys with big egos aren't going to back down. Escalation may be the only way to go.
If the sanctions and dropping oil price hurt Russia's economy enough hopefully he is going to decide against any further incursions into Ukraine and he might even pull his troops out.
He does have a huge ego though so likely he will continue to look for his opportunity. This may allow Ukraine the time they need to get their military fully prepared. Weapons from the West is still a must in that equation.
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That's what I've been saying but Russia losing territory won't happen until America's mainland army shows up. NATO with America can handle Russia. I seriously doubt the current punishment the West is administering on Russia is going to make Putin leave Ukraine, apologize and ask Obama to be let back in the circle of friends. Where does that leave us? Guys with big egos aren't going to back down. Escalation may be the only way to go.
BB--LT took exception to my comments previously on this--but in essence--I will repeat them.
Give Ukraine the help they need and US ground troops as such would not be needed-- sure-send advisors and training to assist(the exception and addition I would like to see are special forces from US,UK,Canada,Australia etc plus the back up they need).
When I say help Ukraine-- Air Cover,Intelligence,Weapons,Logistics-- then Ukrainian troops can do the job .
Given the generally unacceptable to the US public idea of losing fighting troops lives on foreign soil the chances are that it would be more palatable to the US public if it looked more like the scenario I have painted here.
I also mentioned earlier--Poland has solid numbers of combat troops on standby already-- and only hours from the front.
So once again BB-- I don't agree with you.
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You don't believe a doomsday scenario is possible but you think Poland, a NATO member, is motivated to jump into the fight for personal reasons? Think about what I been posting lately. World war becomes more likely.
Look, logically your argument is sound if the facts you possess are true. They are not. But the one logically fallacy is that on one hand you say NATO is not doing enough and then when NATO members do step up, you say they are provoking World War 3. You can't have it both ways Billy B.
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BB--LT took exception to my comments previously on this--but in essence--I will repeat them.
Give Ukraine the help they need and US ground troops as such would not be needed-- sure-send advisors and training to assist(the exception and addition I would like to see are special forces from US,UK,Canada,Australia etc plus the back up they need).
When I say help Ukraine-- Air Cover,Intelligence,Weapons,Logistics-- then Ukrainian troops can do the job .
Given the generally unacceptable to the US public idea of losing fighting troops lives on foreign soil the chances are that it would be more palatable to the US public if it looked more like the scenario I have painted here.
I also mentioned earlier--Poland has solid numbers of combat troops on standby already-- and only hours from the front.
So once again BB-- I don't agree with you.
Agree with one exception. Use US air power in E. Ukraine. The same strategy we used on Baghdad. With US air power, we would wipe out the radars and BUKS within a day or two, knock off a few tanks just for fun, and then let the Ukrainian ground troops wipe out the infantry and clean up the dead bodies. If Putin wants to send some MIG's over we can use them for target practice.
Putin is not going to escalate this by using even tactical nukes. He has far too much to lose for the gains he thinks E. Ukraine is worth.
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Agree with one exception. Use US air power in E. Ukraine. The same strategy we used on Baghdad. With US air power, we would wipe out the radars and BUKS within a day or two, knock off a few tanks just for fun, and then let the Ukrainian ground troops wipe out the infantry and clean up the dead bodies. If Putin wants to send some MIG's over we can use them for target practice.
Putin is not going to escalate this by using even tactical nukes. He has far too much to lose for the gains he thinks E. Ukraine is worth.
I should have said "air power"-- I was including that in air cover general description.It is essential and crucial part of defeating Russia.
I would go one step further-- I would tell the Russians-- anything emanating/launched from Russia- that source base would be a no holes barred target---ie aircraft taking off and entering UKR airspace,missiles launched-even a rifle shot !
the only language a bully will understand is when it is made clear he is going to be on the losing end--no matter what bluff he attempts. Call it--and raise it.
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BB--maybe you missed what I have been saying---in the event of a Russian setback--it is more likely than not that Putin will escalate rather than going into his shell.
Depending on the degree of escalation--chances are Ukraine will get help from the "west".
What you are disputing is the capability of the west to handle Russia in a military sense--to which my response is -- that escalation will not only lead to the removal of Russia from the mainland Ukraine-but eventually out of Crimea .
I keep bringing up nukes because I think Putin will use them to save his own skin.
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BB--LT took exception to my comments previously on this--but in essence--I will repeat them.
The time for US intervention has long since left the harbor.
The best thing we can do is underwrite Ukraine's war expenses. We can do this by giving them loans so they can use existing technologies in their arsenal and get them to 100% and we could loan them surplus technologies at our depots. We could set up refurbishing facilities in Poland and Slovakia so Ukraine could fight their own war. It will need funding in the billions not millions of dollars. But with this Ukraine can march on Moscow.
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I keep bringing up nukes because I think Putin will use them to save his own skin.
Maybe when the writing is on the wall over Crimea?
Maybe when he has his back to the wall-- and he has convinced the Russian population that those dreaded Ukrainian Nazis are on the march to Moscow!!
Putin and his Kremlin cronies are crazy enough-I hope we never find out how crazy they really are.
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If the sanctions and dropping oil price hurt Russia's economy enough hopefully he is going to decide against any further incursions into Ukraine and he might even pull his troops out.
I doubt Putin is going to give Obama and the West what we're hoping for. Sanctions didn't work against smaller nations. I doubt Putin will allow them to work on him. Some believe money and a good economy is necessary for Russia to build a strong military but there were many decades the West didn't do business with the USSR yet they built a military rivaled only by America's.
Putin has ambitions of conquest. Putin feels NATO is a threat and in his way of his ambitions. Putin would like to dismantle NATO. Before NATO, there was an organization called the League of Nations who had a similar agenda which is to maintain world peace. A world war spelled the end for the League of Nations. Putin may test NATO by walking into one of it's less valuable member's territory to prove they won't back each other up when things get tough. If Putin can crack NATO, he may be able to dismantle it.
America and the UK accused Russia of violating the Budapest memorandum they all signed but America and the UK didn't honor their obligations either after Ukraine was attacked. Putin sees these weaknesses and other weaknesses from dysfunctional NATO missions and these weaknesses can only encourage Putin to go after his goals knowing he'd be met with little resistance.
Give Ukraine the help they need and US ground troops as such would not be needed--
I'm all for helping Ukraine but I don't think Putin will allow America/NATO win a proxy war in his back yard. I don't think Ukraine could do it alone and Putin will be wise to do a quick invasion and get it over with before letting the Ukraine military get geared up with modern weapons.
When I say help Ukraine-- Air Cover,Intelligence,Weapons,Logistics-- then Ukrainian troops can do the job .
Unless we declare war, air cover is out. We can provide all kinds of assistance to Ukraine for a proxy war but once we shoot or bomb Russian soldiers, it changes the ball game.
on one hand you say NATO is not doing enough and then when NATO members do step up, you say they are provoking World War 3. You can't have it both ways Billy B.
Performing an action may be good or bad simply by the timing. The League of Nations/Allies didn't do enough to stop Hitler in the beginning when Hitler annexed two nations and when they did step in, it was too late and next thing you know, world war. Timing is important when making decisions. Stepping up and stopping Hitler early would have been better than stepping up late.
NATO didn't do enough in the beginning to discourage Putin so Putin has gotten himself more involved in this crisis thinking he can get away with it just as Hitler believed he will get away with a lot. Now, because it's late, if one or more NATO members get involved with Russia, it can trigger world war.
If NATO initially showed unity through flexing their military strength, it could discourage Putin from proceeding knowing that we could punish him by military means instead of sanctions but now he's in to deep to back out. Putin is smart. He knows the West doesn't have the stomach to fight and he will use that to his advantage. He has already used that to his advantage.
You may not agree with everything I say but I can assure you Putin and his generals have already played out every scenario in an economic war, proxy war, to a world war, and their odds of Russia winning and losing. They have factored in what they can and can't get away with and what the cost would be of anything they do. If Putin feels the rewards are greater than the risks, he will proceed to go after the rewards. Putin thinks he's got control of the situation. Obama thinks he's got control. I think somebody will lose control.
Putin is not going to escalate this by using even tactical nukes.
Putin will threaten to use them to discourage the West from getting militarily involved with what he's doing in Ukraine. Most likely he will only use them for defensive purposes should the West ever think about entering Russia. He's going to make sure the West understands he will never lose Russia under his watch.
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You may not agree with everything I say but I can assure you Putin and his generals have already played out every scenario in an economic war, proxy war, to a world war, and their odds of Russia winning and losing. They have factored in what they can and can't get away with and what the cost would be of anything they do.
Again, you are overestimating this man.
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I'm all for helping Ukraine but I don't think Putin will allow America/NATO win a proxy war in his back yard.
BINGO!!!!
. Now, because it's late, if one or more NATO members get involved with Russia, it can trigger world war.
YAHTZEE!!!!!
You may not agree with everything I say but I can assure you Putin and his generals have already played out every scenario in an economic war, proxy war, to a world war, and their odds of Russia winning and losing. They have factored in what they can and can't get away with and what the cost would be of anything they do. If Putin feels the rewards are greater than the risks, he will proceed to go after the rewards. Putin thinks he's got control of the situation. Obama thinks he's got control. I think somebody will lose control.
BINGO AND YAHTZEE! Great post overall BillyB, I agree with most every logical point you made.
Fathertime!
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Well, that says something.
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The best thing we can do is underwrite Ukraine's war expenses. We can do this by giving them loans so they can use existing technologies in their arsenal and get them to 100% and we could loan them surplus technologies at our depots. We could set up refurbishing facilities in Poland and Slovakia so Ukraine could fight their own war. It will need funding in the billions not millions of dollars. But with this Ukraine can march on Moscow.
The part I bolded will never happen. Ukraine is not a war monger.
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Talk vs Action (yesterday towards Lugansk)
http://tsn.ua/bin/player/embed.php/384057460 (http://tsn.ua/bin/player/embed.php/384057460)
Just had a funny thought while watching the video....
A Ukrainian peasant attaches a GPS tracking device onto one of the tanks.
Enter GPS coordinates in Fire Control Computer and presto...
Problem solved. :)
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I doubt Putin is going to give Obama and the West what we're hoping for. Sanctions didn't work against smaller nations. I doubt Putin will allow them to work on him. Some believe money and a good economy is necessary for Russia to build a strong military but there were many decades the West didn't do business with the USSR yet they built a military rivaled only by America's.
Putin has ambitions of conquest. Putin feels NATO is a threat and in his way of his ambitions. Putin would like to dismantle NATO. Before NATO, there was an organization called the League of Nations who had a similar agenda which is to maintain world peace. A world war spelled the end for the League of Nations. Putin may test NATO by walking into one of it's less valuable member's territory to prove they won't back each other up when things get tough. If Putin can crack NATO, he may be able to dismantle it.
America and the UK accused Russia of violating the Budapest memorandum they all signed but America and the UK didn't honor their obligations either after Ukraine was attacked. Putin sees these weaknesses and other weaknesses from dysfunctional NATO missions and these weaknesses can only encourage Putin to go after his goals knowing he'd be met with little resistance.
I'm all for helping Ukraine but I don't think Putin will allow America/NATO win a proxy war in his back yard. I don't think Ukraine could do it alone and Putin will be wise to do a quick invasion and get it over with before letting the Ukraine military get geared up with modern weapons.
Unless we declare war, air cover is out. We can provide all kinds of assistance to Ukraine for a proxy war but once we shoot or bomb Russian soldiers, it changes the ball game.
Performing an action may be good or bad simply by the timing. The League of Nations/Allies didn't do enough to stop Hitler in the beginning when Hitler annexed two nations and when they did step in, it was too late and next thing you know, world war. Timing is important when making decisions. Stepping up and stopping Hitler early would have been better than stepping up late.
NATO didn't do enough in the beginning to discourage Putin so Putin has gotten himself more involved in this crisis thinking he can get away with it just as Hitler believed he will get away with a lot. Now, because it's late, if one or more NATO members get involved with Russia, it can trigger world war.
If NATO initially showed unity through flexing their military strength, it could discourage Putin from proceeding knowing that we could punish him by military means instead of sanctions but now he's in to deep to back out. Putin is smart. He knows the West doesn't have the stomach to fight and he will use that to his advantage. He has already used that to his advantage.
You may not agree with everything I say but I can assure you Putin and his generals have already played out every scenario in an economic war, proxy war, to a world war, and their odds of Russia winning and losing. They have factored in what they can and can't get away with and what the cost would be of anything they do. If Putin feels the rewards are greater than the risks, he will proceed to go after the rewards. Putin thinks he's got control of the situation. Obama thinks he's got control. I think somebody will lose control.
Putin will threaten to use them to discourage the West from getting militarily involved with what he's doing in Ukraine. Most likely he will only use them for defensive purposes should the West ever think about entering Russia. He's going to make sure the West understands he will never lose Russia under his watch.
good post billy b
have to agree with you on most of it
unfortunatly i dont see mr putin stepping back either , he will dig in & sacrifice whatever it takes , money , people etc, he is KGB to the bone imo
SX
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Thanks for the replies CM and Jay .
Looks like i was being fed duff gen by the girls :)
Yeah--that happens !!When close it is often hard to know precisely.
From today--
Military records recruits had been launched.
Military records or preparing for the fourth wave of mobilization was started. The formal agenda will come as soon as the Council poholosuye "for" presidential decree on partial mobilization, but now around military commissariat MoD expects various excesses and even arson attacks, referred to in the story TSN.19 30 .
While military offices at no excitement there cause for an interview and physical examination. Defense, primarily looking for healthy men and women, it is preferable to military specialty. Demand tankers, artillery, air defense experts, communications and repairers, deficiency of intelligence. Age from 25 to 60 years - residence does not matter.
The fourth wave has resulted in the Ukrainian army about 50 thousand soldiers. This number of people needed to equip all groups, to rotate and create a reserve. Among the male population and now only talk about mobilization.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/viyskovi-rozpovili-yak-bude-prohoditi-chetverta-hvilya-mobilizaciyi-402612.html
And Previous Story-
Update MAT will reserve for three waves of mobilization.
UNIAN Benches Armed Forces will add 200 thousand Ukrainian During the three waves of mobilization that will take place this year, the ranks of the Armed Forces plans to recruit 200 thousand Ukrainian. As deputy head of the GPU and the Military Prosecutor of Ukraine Anatoliy Matios.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/cogo-roku-do-armiyi-mobilizuyut-200-tisyach-ukrayinciv-401346.html
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In so far as whatever the operation was the advantage of numerical superiority would be a factor in launching an offensive.
It depends on the (Russian) military district's armored units. They might relocate units from other districts but my guess would be whatever that district's available resources are is what would be potentially deployed.
Brass
This video is of a huge train load of Russian Federation tanks which arrived in Crimea back in March, 2014. As we previously discussed if Putin launches an offensive from the east to take Mariupol he will launch a simultaneous attack from Crimea for a classic encirclement attack. Notice that the number of tanks in Crimea now is not disclosed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swyRqWAUi1I
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This video is of a huge train load of Russian Federation tanks which arrived in Crimea back in March, 2014. As we previously discussed if Putin launches an offensive from the east to take Mariupol he will launch a simultaneous attack from Crimea for a classic encirclement attack. Notice that the number of tanks in Crimea now is not disclosed.
Ever heard of the Battle of Thermopylae?
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This video is of a huge train load of Russian Federation tanks which arrived in Crimea back in March, 2014. As we previously discussed if Putin launches an offensive from the east to take Mariupol he will launch a simultaneous attack from Crimea for a classic encirclement attack. Notice that the number of tanks in Crimea now is not disclosed.
From what we can see of the rail cars on the vid it's about 40 tanks or a Bn's worth .
Most are t-64's contrary to the vid headline except for the last two tanks (identifiable) seen at the end of the vid which is a/are t-72(s).
How do we know those are t-64's vice t-72s?
Road wheels...
t-64's have smaller road wheels than t-72's...
(http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot/tanks/russiantanks/t-64.JPG)
t-64 note the gap between the road wheels
Now t-72...
(http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/Sariel/T72M/original1.gif)
t-64...
(http://www.armyrecognition.com/Russe/vehicules_lourds/T_64/T-64_Russe_25.jpg)
t-72...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/T-72_2005_2.jpg)
If you return to the video and view the tanks at the beginning of the video vs. the one tank at the end of the video you'll see the difference in the size of the road wheels.
Either way yes, a two pronged attack or encirclement type action is entirely possible. I'm sure the Ukraine military would have already taken that into account though and have/would prepare(d) accordingly.
Brass
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From what we can see of the rail cars on the vid it's about 40 tanks or a Bn's worth .
Most are t-64's contrary to the vid headline except for the last two tanks (identifiable) seen at the end of the vid which is a/are t-72(s).
How do we know those are t-64's vice t-72s?
Road wheels...
t-64's have smaller road wheels than t-72's...
(http://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot/tanks/russiantanks/t-64.JPG)
t-64 note the gap between the road wheels
Now t-72...
(http://www.brickshelf.com/gallery/Sariel/T72M/original1.gif)
t-64...
(http://www.armyrecognition.com/Russe/vehicules_lourds/T_64/T-64_Russe_25.jpg)
t-72...
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/T-72_2005_2.jpg)
If you return to the video and view the tanks at the beginning of the video vs. the one tank at the end of the video you'll see the difference in the size of the road wheels.
Either way yes, a two pronged attack or encirclement type action is entirely possible. I'm sure the Ukraine military would have already taken that into account though and have/would prepare(d) accordingly.
Brass
Thanks for pointing that out, you've got a better eye than I do. I didn't even think to try to determine whether or not it was truthful about them being T72's. You see, that RT Russian propaganda does work. :o
I think that in order for Ukraine's military to be adequately prepared, they should have been given some javelins and a bunch of other stuff that they asked for. Perhaps some of it has been secretly supplied, although I doubt if they have enough altogether.
If Putin were to see that Ukraine had all the hardware in place, he would be less likely to attempt his land bridge because of the enormous loss of life on both sides, which would finally affect his popularity (I would certainly hope so at that point), as well as the enormous financial cost of trying to displace a properly equipped defending Army.
Putting any foreign boots (other than training specialists far removed from the theater of war) on the ground would be a huge mistake. He would be able to tell his home audience "you see, the Americans (or NATO or whoever) have invaded our sphere of influence" and that would be his impetus to escalate into a full blown war.
Hopefully this is all speculation and Ukraine is able to get where they need to be defensively to force a stalemate. Eventually if the sanctions are kept up perhaps Putin will pull out of E. Ukraine entirely and negotiate, since his economic woes will eventually affect his ability to stay in power.
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Ever heard of the Battle of Thermopylae?
Yes (Hollywood version is "300"). It certainly does show that a small number of highly motivated soldiers on their home turf can inflict enormous damage against a larger more powerful invading Army.
The problem here is that the Russian Federation has so many sympathizers amongst the Eastern and Crimean population who want to be under Russian "protection".
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I didn't even think to try to determine whether or not it was truthful about them being T72's. You see, that RT Russian propaganda does work. :o
RT was being truthful. Just have to watch the whole video to see the truth. At the 37 second mark of the video, a whole train of freshly painted and probably updated T-72's show up and passes a train full of T-64's that look like they came out of reserve.
There's no doubt in my mind there's shipments of many more different types of weaponry that arrived in Crimea. I don't think Putin has plans to back down.
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RT was being truthful. Just have to watch the whole video to see the truth.
RT & truth in the same sentence is oxymoron!
Can anyone be certain that footage was taken in Crimea?
btw--no one has denied the likelihood that Russia was pumping armaments into Crimea-or of the potential for attack from that direction
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If Russia can't supply its citizenry, what are the odds it can launch a combined arms invasion from Crimea?
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RT was being truthful. Just have to watch the whole video to see the truth. At the 37 second mark of the video, a whole train of freshly painted and probably updated T-72's show up and passes a train full of T-64's that look like they came out of reserve.
There's no doubt in my mind there's shipments of many more different types of weaponry that arrived in Crimea. I don't think Putin has plans to back down.
I don't know about that, Billy. That's why I posted the first two tanks are identifiable but from that point on even at 40 seconds right before the cut it gets too hazy to accurately identify the model. The third tank based on it's reactive armor configuration on the turret could also be t-72 but anything after that is unidentifiable.
I noted when I first viewed the vid that H2200 always seemed to be front and centre but didn't think much of it at the time. Looking closer at the vid the tanks in the background while buddy comrade general's talking; the first two possibly the third are t-72s but they keep cutting to t-64s during most of the vid so whether or not it's a whole train load of t-72s is open to debate.
What we do know is, other than the two or three tanks we can identify, the vid is representing t-64s as t-72s and that at least isn't truthful.
Brass
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RT was being truthful.
Why would you say something like that?
I honestly think your pro-Ukraine bona fides need verification.
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Looking closer at the vid the tanks in the background while buddy comrade general's talking; the first two possibly the third are t-72s but they keep cutting to t-64s during most of the vid so whether or not it's a whole train load of t-72s is open to debate.
The machine gun mounts on top of the turrets between both tanks are clearly different but are consistent on both trains. You don't have to identify the whole tank but the mounts are identifiable There are lots of photographers behind comrade general. It would be silly for RT and the Russian military to lie about outdated tanks when it's in public view and on camera. In the whole scheme of things, Putin is putting in a serious home security system in Crimea. He investing Russia deeper into this crisis.
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Maskirovka
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From today's Mendeleyev Journal:
Heroes on the front in Eastern Ukraine:
One cannot think about Ukraine without giving due to her heroes. Some are professional soldiers, but many are volunteers who have hastily trained and then traveled to the Eastern front, even when ill-equipped. They are motivated by a deep desire to serve their country. Thanks to Western nations like Canada, Italy and Poland who have begun to help modernize and equip these heroes.
These are some of the faces of the men and women who have taken up arms in the just cause of defending their Ukrainian homeland, even against a much larger and deadly enemy. Sadly, both Ukraine and Russia were birthed in Ukraine. Close brothers for generations; those brotherly ties are fading fast.
This installment of "heroes" is dedicated to the brave souls who lost their lives in fighting yesterday: Olga Shudikina, Inna Kornilova, Larisa Starchak, Roman Kolomoets, Tetyana Morgasuk, Oleksandr Morgasuk, Vladislav Polyakov, Maria Grinnik, Dmitro Dukov, Anastasia Logutkina, and Anatoly Karpov.
May God forgive their sins from this life, grant each of them eternal rest in His presence, wipe away all tears and sorrow, and comfort their families.
Eternal memory.
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Good post.
Bravery is never wasted.
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Thanks, LT.
The original article at the MJ includes photos of some of the heroes.
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In terms of geopolitics, one would be wise to read every article on the MJ. He posts articles that always prove prescient. Case in point, articles related to Siberia. MJ discussed moving the capital to Novosibirsk and another article of carving Russia into zones occupied by the US and China. Later, the NYT posts a similar article about the Sinofication of Siberia. . . .
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The machine gun mounts on top of the turrets between both tanks are clearly different but are consistent on both trains. You don't have to identify the whole tank but the mounts are identifiable There are lots of photographers behind comrade general. It would be silly for RT and the Russian military to lie about outdated tanks when it's in public view and on camera. In the whole scheme of things, Putin is putting in a serious home security system in Crimea. He investing Russia deeper into this crisis.
Possibly, the uniformity is there. I doubt they'd be trying to pull a fast one with the locals but these Youtube vids (pro or con) are for our benefit or the narrative would be in Cyrillic.
It looks impressive but in the over all scheme of things it's not awe inspiring. You put any large armored numbers on rail cars or see them congregating at a railhead and there's a Wow factor. It doesn't mean the end is nigh. What it does tell us is according to this vid Russia is putting tanks into Crimea. Strength or for what purpose is not clear at this point. For all we know that was the entire compliment.
Brass
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Note the current assessment of capability
JANUARY 16, 2015
Russia Could Soon Run Multiple Ukraine-Sized Operations: US General
Russia is working to develop within a few years the capability to threaten several neighbors at once on the scale of its present operation in Ukraine, a senior American general said.
Lieutenant-General Ben Hodges, commander of U.S. Army forces in Europe, told Reuters an attack on another neighbor does not seem like an immediate threat because Moscow appears to have its hands full in Ukraine for now.
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/russia-could-soon-run-multiple-ukraine-sized-operations-us-general
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Note the current assessment of capability
JANUARY 16, 2015
Russia Could Soon Run Multiple Ukraine-Sized Operations: US General
Russia is working to develop within a few years the capability to threaten several neighbors at once on the scale of its present operation in Ukraine, a senior American general said.
Lieutenant-General Ben Hodges, commander of U.S. Army forces in Europe, told Reuters an attack on another neighbor does not seem like an immediate threat because Moscow appears to have its hands full in Ukraine for now.
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/russia-could-soon-run-multiple-ukraine-sized-operations-us-general
As an observation; It's funny how the same phrases keep popping up in these press and briefing summaries, whether it's the West's assessment or propaganda from Russia - In a few years, are developing, testing new capabilities, will be capable of,working to develop . - Yeah, the Russian's are scrambling to bring their military up to western standards but does it not make more sense to be more concerned (NATO countries, that is) with what they're capable of doing today not by 2020 or beyond?
Brass
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This is an aerial reconnaissance video of the Donetsk airport by what I am assuming was a drone, on January 15. It is obviously produced to stir the heart strings and generate donations, but I would imagine hard to refute by our Russian members.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2dsVMpyL40
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U.S. soldiers have already arrived for combined training in Rukla, their equipment already in Lithuania too
The heavy combat equipment brought by the U.S. allies, i.e. the STRYKER multipurpose armoured wheeled personnel carriers, the HMMWV armoured all-terrain vehicles, military trucks, etc., will also be stationed in Rukla once they reach Lithuania and get transported from Klaipėda to Rukla via railway on January 15-16.
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Note the current assessment of capability
JANUARY 16, 2015
Russia Could Soon Run Multiple Ukraine-Sized Operations: US General
Russia is working to develop within a few years the capability to threaten several neighbors at once on the scale of its present operation in Ukraine, a senior American general said.
Lieutenant-General Ben Hodges, commander of U.S. Army forces in Europe, told Reuters an attack on another neighbor does not seem like an immediate threat because Moscow appears to have its hands full in Ukraine for now.
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/natosource/russia-could-soon-run-multiple-ukraine-sized-operations-us-general
Now you're getting it. Russia's military isn't something to laugh about. I just read the same article today on another news site. Putin is not concerned about fixing the health of his economy as much as he is increasing his military might. He plans on using that military. As Putin gets older, he'll probably get more senile than sane. That would be dangerous. The American general also believes Putin will take over NATO nations using methods he used in Crimea. As long a Putin denies he's involved and gets the world to believe unidentified little green men aren't his and the citizens of those nations are the ones that what to join the dark side, NATO may not get involved.
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Now you're getting it. Russia's military isn't something to laugh about. I just read the same article today on another news site. Putin is not concerned about fixing the health of his economy as much as he is increasing his military might. He plans on using that military. As Putin gets older, he'll probably get more senile than sane. That would be dangerous. The American general also believes Putin will take over NATO nations using methods he used in Crimea. As long a Putin denies he's involved and gets the world to believe unidentified little green men aren't his and the citizens of those nations are the ones that what to join the dark side, NATO may not get involved.
BB-- do you think Putin is going to announce Russia is broke and worse is to come?
Putin will not get old in office-- only a few months--not years-and his brain is already gone. Only rat-cunning now.
btw--I am not "getting" anything new-article confirms that Russia is extended now-- which is contrary to what you have been saying and consistent with what Brass & others are saying!!
I am sure that we will not be suspense long to see who proves to be correct.
ps/1 if you had bothered to read the link-it refers to Russian capabilities in 2020--not today
ps/2 Despite full on assault of Russian Army -Ukrainians still hold airport ~~~~~ :)
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These Russians appear to really love Putin
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BB has tried to tell us about the incompetence of Ukrainian military and the superiority of the Russians as a fighting force-even incorrectly claiming that the Donetsk airport was lost 2 days ago-- fwiw-no one is underestimating how difficult a task Ukraine faces-but it is a mistake to overestimate Russian capabilities.If the Russian forces were not using civilians and civilian areas to shelter- they would have suffered even more significant losses.
Ukraine has done its best to respect civilian areas-- while part of the Russian agenda is to destroy infrastructure and housing.Using a policy of scorched earth if they are forced to retreat--the aim is to leave Ukraine with a huge cost to resurrect industry ,infrastructure,housing etc
Chances are that if Ukraine is ever able to force a withdrawal-that will be Russian reaction--one of Putin's aims is to attempt to break Ukraine economically by costing it huge amounts to defend itself and rebuild.Ironically--the Russian invasions will result in far more help from the west to rebuild Ukraine.
The long term war will be won if Ukraine can succeed in being a democracy with a free market economy-that alone will sink a Russia as it is and has been.
Todays news!!
Ukrainian military managed to push militants from Donetsk airport about a mile in the direction of "Spartacus."
Reported by journalist Andrew Tsaplienko in Facebook , citing company commander assault "PS" with the call sign "Bars".
"Force ATO pushed militants from the airport for about half a mile in the direction of" Spartacus ", the stripping stumbled on fortified area" sepa "in Ukrainian security forces are" three hundred "in particular" Legal Sector "two" - he wrote.
Recall, as previously reported 93 soldiers brigade two kilometers deepened in Donetsk . In Donetsk airport all day fierce fighting continues. Volunteers reported that the airport was taken three dead and 20 wounded soldiers. However, another volunteer physician reported 20 dead and more than fifty wounded . The commander of the 5th Battalion single "Right Sector" with the call sign "Black" denied reports 20 dead . Adviser to the President Yuri Biryukov said that the situation in Donetsk airport as of 20:00 "missed something." Some fighters have deserted , but there is a lot. Defenders Donetsk airport, referring to the Ukrainian, promised not to depart terminals and win Ukrainian land.
http://24tv.ua/news/showNews.do?sili_ato_vidsunuli_boyovikiv_vid_aeroportu_donetska__dzherelo&objectId=532665
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Jay, your post is not really accurate because the fighters in E. Ukraine are a mixture of Ukrainians who are ethnic Russians, mercenaries from Chechnya and Russia, and actual Russian soldiers. Should Putin really invade then unfortunately we are likely to see that a full Army of Russian regulars can and will overwhelm the Ukrainians.
It does not make me happy to write that but it's realistic and not wishful thinking like most of what you write.
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AC-- serious post gets a serious reply--mostly what I post is linked to supporting article--bit it is not always my opinion in every article and often I do not agree 100% -but the general direction has merit.
For example-- todays link is a work in progress. It does go to rebut BB's repeated posts of Ukrainian military being a failure-- and there is so much needed to cover that. You mention Chechyans above as mercenaries-that is not necessarily so--there are regiments of Russian Army in Ukraine from Chechnya-- so dangerous to presume that equals mercenaries.
eg-- a ceasefire has been in place that supposedly locked in frontlines-these have not been respected by the Russian side and many breaches of the protocols have been recorded by the OSCE observers. Until recently-Ukraine respected those theoretical lines on the map-- so making progress by moving forward was not on Ukraines agenda-- but BB's comments ignore those simple enough points.
Today--interesting reports are flowing-time will tell us more soon--
In Donetsk are active street fighting - witnesses
Oleg Mysko January 18, 2015, 00:04
Residents of Donetsk began reporting on social networks about the fact that Ukrainian troops entered Donetsk and street fighting erupted in the city.
Reported journalist Alexander Argatov, news reports "Press Ukraine".
"As a result of the release operation Donetsk airport and Ukrainian military forces aircraft took Duc strategic base. They're coming battles in the city," - said Argatov.
This information confirmed by other users of social networks.
"Sepa Russians and Ukrainian GVA today gave a little tough" - written by journalist Peter Shuklinov.
Recall that the Ukrainian military took corridor Donetsk airport and trying to keep up, and soldiers from 93 Brigade Armed Forces went to 2 km in Donetsk - coming battle. Militants and Russian secret services attempt to fight off the airport and attack with all weapons, including "Hurricane."
http://uapress.info/uk/news/show/57300
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More issues=-- note-these are the writers views--I do not necessarily agree!
'The Russian Army Has Huge Problems'
The following is an interview with Rajan Menon, a professor of political science at the City College of New York and a senior research scholar at the Arnold A. Saltzman Institute of War and Peace Studies at Columbia University.
MOTYL: Every one-two months, Ukraine expects a massive Russian invasion. Is this a valid fear?
MENON: The Russian army has huge problems. People tend to tally Russian divisions, not realizing that a significant number aren’t fully staffed, equipped, or combat-ready. Moreover, the poor quality of recruits mirrors Russia’s health crisis. Russia already has thousands of troops deployed—unsuccessfully—to quell a 20-year insurgency that’s spread across the entire North Caucasus.
Ukraine is large and populous; Russian generals will be hard-pressed to sustain an army in the field, especially once their units enter regions with hefty Ukrainian majorities. Ukrainians have a history of partisan warfare and will resist. Urban warfare is a bloody business, and Russia would pay a heavy price to conquer and hold big Ukrainians cities. Russian airpower and artillery can cause huge damage, but only ground forces can seize and retain territory: that’s where Russia’s military weaknesses will become apparent. In Crimea, Russia had unique advantages (troops and military infrastructure in place plus a welcoming Russian majority) that it won’t have elsewhere in Ukraine. Politically, a full-blown Russian invasion would eviscerate Moscow’s relationship with the West, rendering Russia a raw-material appendage of China.
http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/blog/alexander-j-motyl/russian-army-has-huge-problems
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Interesting isn't it? Made a corridor and pushed back the trash by 2 kilometers. If it is true (probably is) and that won't be a reality for a few more hours. I would like them to keep moving and throw it all in the bucket. Most likely they will not.
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Billy B has attempted to argue the superiority of Russian military strength with dubious result. The Ukrainian high command assessed by John Schindler is not in doubt. They suck. Poroshenko's tolerance and his approach to government is an open question.
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Billy B has attempted to argue the superiority of Russian military strength with dubious result. The Ukrainian high command assessed by John Schindler is not in doubt. They suck. Poroshenko's tolerance and his approach to government is an open question.
:rolleyes:
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Personally, I like Poroshenko. His travels to, and interactions with the troops, are impressive and recognized as such by those he visits.
The question in my mind is whether he can reform a very corrupt system. The Oligarchs who thwart progress really don't care to see an open and transparent society developed. To a degree, they also do not care whether Ukraine is free, or a vassal of Russia. Right now, Poroshenko must convince them that were Ukraine to be conquered by Russia, they could be replaced by a new set of Oligarchs from Moscow.
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Billy B has attempted to argue the superiority of Russian military strength with dubious result. The Ukrainian high command assessed by John Schindler is not in doubt. They suck.
LT, you are so upset with what I write, you're failing to comprehend. I said the Russian military will dominate a fight against the Ukrainian military but they will suck if the American military shows up. For some reason you think Putin has thrown everything he's got in Ukraine and can't make progress.
Poroshenko must convince them that were Ukraine to be conquered by Russia, they could be replaced by a new set of Oligarchs from Moscow.
Putin must prove to the Ukrainian people the new boss is the same as the old boss and won't make any progress to improve their lives. Putin also must prove their military is in sorry shape. He must break Ukrainians will to resist and fight. The Donbas airport is of little strategic value since it's destroyed but it will be great for the propaganda machine for both Ukraine and Russia.
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What is doing NATO in Ukraine, today zero.
I write this message for the second time.
Ukraine and south of Russia were jewish during 2.000 years. Russia win this country, and now Israel want to come back in Ukraine, the country of fathers. In my state, Cherkassy oblast, 45% were jewish before bolcheviks start to kill them.
These people will come back in Ukraine and fight since Maidan against Russia and now in Donbass.
They are masters with drones, 18 19 August russian army had to go to Crimea but was stopped and this was done without died in Ukraine army.
3 days before, russian wanted to take airport in Donetsk. About 200 of the best soldiers commandos russian died, zero from Ukraine.
Only drones can do this.
Yes this week Canada official, but this is USA send 42 monsters bags (I dont know the name in english) arrived in Ukraine.
The real work is made from Honolulu or Birmark or Providence, or Haifa with men with the joistick command for drones.
And I give you last news, Europe and soon all occidental countries block change with rouble, that is, it will be impossible for russian people to go in our countries. This is same as blocus of visas.
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The Battle to control the airport & surrounds is ongoing. Ukrainians managed to clear the area yesterday --but as I write the Russians have mounted a huge attack again.
So far--Ukrainians are holding--but surrounded again.
The airport has assumed huge significance beyond any tactical importance. Russian media have repeatedly claimed it is under Russian control and repeatedly looked foolish when reports proved premature.
The incredible effort to hold off the Russians has become symbolic for Ukrainians where the "Cyborgs" have carved their own legendary status--and shown Ukraine could stand up to the Russians despite all the difficulties they have faced.
Or we create the conditions for the effective protection of the Donetsk airport, or we lose it.
The concept of this - to expand the control zone to the entire Donetsk and Lugansk regions. And Zakharchenko, and Carpenter have previously stated that they need full control over the territory of the region - as "new republics". To achieve this goal has been developed military operation. Of course, not only them, but also by Russian special services. They identified several objects that are signed, including the airport - they believe both strategic object and symbol of the intransigence of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. Therefore, if the militants and the Russian military will be able to seize the airport, it will be for them a great value. Sign, which will give them the feeling that they have the priority that they have a victory - not only moral, but also military.
Больше читайте здесь: http://ru.tsn.ua/analitika/uderzhat-aeroport-405797.html
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What grade would you give the West? I would give Saudi Arabia an A+ and the rest of the West an F.
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AIRPORT UPDATE-- still in Ukr hands
marqs
@MarQs__
Adviser to #Poroshenko: Tonight we evacuated all wounded from the new terminal at #Donetsk airport & did a partial rotation of our forces
http://twitter.com/MarQs__/status/557064606137745409
MOIn Donetsk airport hosted an epic battle with dozens of tanks and artillery duels
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/pid-doneckim-aeroportom-vidbuvsya-epichniy-biy-iz-desyatkami-tankiv-i-artileriyskimi-duelyami-403401.htmlRE DETAILS__ Video
Ukrainian paratroopers stormed the enemy positions.
The intense battle on the outskirts of the airport lasted two hours, commandos ran into a strong fortification by militants. Command sent to the aid of a few tanks and soldiers. Among the many soldiers originating from the Donbas. In their eyes before the fight was not a hint of fear. They were going to fight for her house, protect and return their homeland.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/pid-doneckim-aeroportom-vidbuvsya-epichniy-biy-iz-desyatkami-tankiv-i-artileriyskimi-duelyami-403401.html
More--
War of Ukraine
ANALYSIS OF COMBAT in Donetsk AЄROPORTU 15 January 2015 G. Why is this fight? For the first time in a very long time at the actions of the Russian side appeared tactical approach and the overall planning of combat. Caution will express their own assumption - planned and commanded the battle one person. Most likely - someone from the staff officers of special forces mid-level (battalion, regiment). Callsign "Bumblebee". The main task - to eliminate a group of Ukrainian Armed Forces at the airport.
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NATO Secretary welcomes Ukrainian membership
http://ukraineenglishnewsforum.createaforum.com/general-discussion/nato-ukraine-is-ready-to-consider-an-application-for-membership-stoltenberg/new/#new
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LT stop quoting another forum.. Poor Taste.
Besides that isn't the source.
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LT stop quoting another forum.. Poor Taste.
Besides that isn't the source.
I report. You decide.
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Your other report from that other forum is suspect.. I didn't find the actual article on Gordon.. Nor anywhere else so far about the 230000 hrn bribe that they caught from the Natl. Guard.
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LT stop quoting another forum.. Poor Taste.
Besides that isn't the source.
Is it poor taste to quote another forum? Did you not like the information he quoted? There is no forum war....
Fathertime!
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If I reported something false, please tell me so I can correct it. Thx
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NATO Secretary welcomes Ukrainian membership
That's the same as a bank "welcoming" my request for a $10 million loan.
For Ukraine to be accepted into NATO it would take unanimous approval by all standing members. Knowing that the first thing Ukraine would do upon membership would be to invoke article 5 (an attack against one is an attack against all). The majority of members would not support this. This is why Ukraine will never be in NATO.
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And yet the courtship continues .. .
Finland and NATO
http://geographical.co.uk/geopolitics/geopolitics/item/483-will-finland-say-joo
Sweden and NATO
http://m.thelocal.se/20150109/more-swedes-show-support-for-nato
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And yet the courtship continues .. .
Finland and NATO
http://geographical.co.uk/geopolitics/geopolitics/item/483-will-finland-say-joo (http://geographical.co.uk/geopolitics/geopolitics/item/483-will-finland-say-joo)
Sweden and NATO
http://m.thelocal.se/20150109/more-swedes-show-support-for-nato (http://m.thelocal.se/20150109/more-swedes-show-support-for-nato)
If Sweden and Finland want in to NATO I don't think they would have any problem. Ukraine... huge problem.
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If Sweden and Finland want in to NATO I don't think they would have any problem. Ukraine... huge problem.
As it stands today, you are absolutely correct.
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Why?
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Why?
Think man, think.
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But there are no Russians in Ukraine
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Why?
Another reason is NATO applicants cannot have any ongoing border disputes (Crimea). Also their military must be on a par with other members.
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I'd imagine Ukraine's military is on a par with or stronger than Estonia's and Lithuania's ?
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What is doing NATO in Ukraine, today zero.
I write this message for the second time.
Ukraine and south of Russia were jewish during 2.000 years. Russia win this country, and now Israel want to come back in Ukraine, the country of fathers. In my state, Cherkassy oblast, 45% were jewish before bolcheviks start to kill them.
These people will come back in Ukraine and fight since Maidan against Russia and now in Donbass.
They are masters with drones, 18 19 August russian army had to go to Crimea but was stopped and this was done without died in Ukraine army.
3 days before, russian wanted to take airport in Donetsk. About 200 of the best soldiers commandos russian died, zero from Ukraine.
Only drones can do this.
Yes this week Canada official, but this is USA send 42 monsters bags (I dont know the name in english) arrived in Ukraine.
The real work is made from Honolulu or Birmark or Providence, or Haifa with men with the joistick command for drones.
And I give you last news, Europe and soon all occidental countries block change with rouble, that is, it will be impossible for russian people to go in our countries. This is same as blocus of visas.
Your last comments demonstrate a set of wishful thoughts. It ain't a gonna happen. While the Western Powers may exclude Russia from Swift systems or other financial access, the Ruble must be exchanged. Otherwise all of the other financial systems would collapse as well, in time. Moreover, it would set a precedent that would damage civilization as we know it.
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I'd imagine Ukraine's military is on a par with or stronger than Estonia's and Lithuania's ?
Stronger than both combined.
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I'd imagine Ukraine's military is on a par with or stronger than Estonia's and Lithuania's ?
I would think so. Hopefully strong enough to eventually push the Russians out of their country, or at least keep them stalemated where they are. I suspect that they have been getting some weapons from NATO members, but are keeping it quiet.
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I'd imagine Ukraine's military is on a par with or stronger than Estonia's and Lithuania's ?
First place in the ranking took the US
Lifestyle
In the ranking of the most powerful armies of Ukraine took the weighty position
20/01/2015 16:49
MATERIALS:
Within a month, the Ukrainian army will receive a new armored car "Khazar"
Ukraine has launched the first in this year's "wave of mobilization"
Army of Ukraine will take part in 11 international exercises
Mobilization touches 200 thousand Ukrainians - Matios
Tweet
Ukraine in the world ranking of the most powerful armies located at 21 th place
This is according to rankings Global Firepower, transmits 112.ua .
In total, ranking 106 countries listed.
Notes that the Ukrainian military power still shows some roots of the Soviet era, but in a more modern version.
The first place in this ranking took the United States, the second - Russia.
The third was China, followed by India, the United Kingdom, France, Germany, Turkey and South Korea.
Ukraine in the ranking located between Australia (20 position) and Iran (22 place).
http://comments.ua/life/504479-v-reytinge-samih-moshchnih-armiy-ukraina.html
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Papa cool is right. NATO isn't doing dick and Billy B's criticism of the Qaddafi war stands. NATO was made to take on mad Russian tyrants and here we are dickering over Poroshenko's war record. How can anyone criticize this man given the 'help' we gave them?
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January 21, 2015, 12:31 Kiev
All articles / World
In the US, call types of weapons that Ukraine may receive from Washington
"It is planned to supply fire control radars, combat-protected command and combat network. This is the most important in the fight, "- said a military expert Mackenzie Aglen.
Voice of America
Posted 01/21/2015
H and this week will arrive in Ukraine Command of the Army US Army, said at a briefing the press secretary of the General Staff Vladislav Seleznev. The purpose of the visit will be to assess the situation in eastern Ukraine, and to discuss further assistance to the Ukrainian armed forces. What kind of weapons the United States can provide Ukraine, taking into account the new law to support freedom of Ukraine and the new Pentagon budget, the Voice of America's military expert told the American Enterprise Institute Mackenzie Aglen.
"It is planned to supply fire control radars, combat-protected command and combat network. This is the most important thing in battle. No matter what you have weapons, but if you all are not connected, you will always lose. This, as well as reconnaissance drones and other types of robotic arms provide a significant advantage, which Ukraine has not been until now, "- said the expert.
http://ru.krymr.com/content/article/26805208.html
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Good post Jay. If the USA starts giving Ukraine some weapon systems right away they should be able to hold for awhile.
excerpt
"It is planned to supply fire control radars, combat-protected command and combat network. This is the most important thing in battle. No matter what you have weapons, but if you all are not connected, you will always lose. This, as well as reconnaissance drones and other types of robotic arms provide a significant advantage..."
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Its peanuts.
The CIA has a black budget that is off the books. We could buy up the Warsaw Pact arsenal funnel it through the LESSER members of NATO like Canada and this 1 million man Army John Schindler wants could get armed. But is that happening?
No.
Obama is selling out the Euromaidan revolution just like he sold out the Green Revolution.
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The Death of Ukraine’s Cyborg Army
One of the most tragic developments of what is now, undeniably, a Russian-Ukrainian war has unfolded over the last week when more than 400 Ukrainian soldiers were nearly butchered on live, Russian state-controlled television.
Kiev maintains that it needs precision weapons to effectively — and humanely — defend its territory and repel the separatist onslaught.
Meanwhile, the death toll continues to rise. Last week, rockets fired by Russian-backed fighters hit a bus and killed 13 people in Volnovakha. In October, a funeral procession in Ukrainian-held Sartana, just outside Mariupol, was hit by artillery shells, which left seven civilians dead and another 15 wounded. It is now well established that the Russian-backed fighters often launch these rockets from civilian areas, effectively using the people of eastern Ukraine as human shields.
Kiev maintains that it needs precision weapons to effectively — and humanely — defend its territory and repel the separatist onslaught.Kiev maintains that it needs precision weapons to effectively — and humanely — defend its territory and repel the separatist onslaught. But its requests to the international community, including to the United States, for drones to better target its artillery have fallen on deaf ears. (The United States says it has supplied Ukraine’s border guards with some lightly armored vehicles, but it’s not clear how Washington thinks these vehicles will stack up against T-72 tanks and other heavy Russian military equipment that are actively being deployed in eastern Ukraine.) Kiev has grounded its air force after Russian-backed separatists shot down multiple fighter jets — and, infamously, one civilian airliner — with advanced anti-aircraft systems like the Strela-10 and Buk.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/01/22/the-death-of-ukraines-cyborg-army-ukraine-russia-donetsk-airport-shelling/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Flashpoints&utm_campaign=2014_FlashPoints%20%5BManual%5DRS1%2F22
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Reading many articles from all types of media outlets it is an overwhelming majority that have good understanding of the seriousness of the Russian invasion of Ukraine. I also can see many elected members of US government(from both sides) also have a good understanding as the early days of Russian lies has been overcome with the sheer enormity of factual stories.
None of what has been written will be a surprise to those who manage US government decision making--in this case I refer to the specific agencies that advise the Presidents administration .
I do not buy into the anti-Obama vitriol here from the US guys--he is the President of the United States--in effect the leader of what we know as the free democratic world and it will be the decisions made by his administration that is going to decide Ukraine's fate-as such-- I am totally respectful of the difficulties faced in that process.
My plea today is for all you guys( & girls) to forget your internal political issues and see this for what it is-- a humanitarian crisis that needs the strongest action to save them-- and millions of others.
Instead of writing crap here on the forum-- write/call your local representatives office and tell them why the US help is needed urgently-it cannot hurt!
Follow
John McCainVerified account
@SenJohnMcCain
Again- US failure to help #Ukraine is shameful. "Pro-Russian rebels reject peace deal, launch new offensive"
Pro-Russian rebels reject peace deal, launch new offensive
A top NATO official confirmed that rebels had pushed west and received reinforcements. U.S. Air Force Gen. Philip Breedlove said air-defense and electronic-warfare equipment have been detected in eastern Ukraine - hardware that, in the past, coincided with the incursion of Russian troops into Ukraine.
http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_289563/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=FAgiwm1J
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My plea today is for all you guys( & girls) to forget your internal political issues and see this for what it is-- a humanitarian crisis that needs the strongest action to save them-- and millions of others.
Instead of writing crap here on the forum-- write/call your local representatives office and tell them why the US help is needed urgently-it cannot hurt!
What a bunch of nonsense....sure forget all your internal problems in the states and go focus on a country on a continent across the ocean. :rolleyes: Why don't YOU worry about YOURSELF, your country, and not try to tell everybody else what they need to be concerned about? You have the option to go fight if you feel so strongly about it, as does anybody else....but again from your reclining chair you try to call OTHERS to action.
Fathertime!
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Funds which you control disbursement of (to minimize corruption), and which improves the lives of locals comes back to you in spades. We're not talking a huge sum of money.
I would have no issues with a portion of my tax dollars being used to improve structures in Ukraine.
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Bo -
I would have no problem with part of my tax dollars used to stabilize a country. The people who would object the most are probably the ones who aren't paying in in the first place. They probably sit around all day with big beer bellies complaining that the US isn't doing enough for them.
Then when someone tries to stand up to propose a solution that involves contributing money that is to be used to rebuild an economy and society, they belly ache like its their own personal savings account.
I think that the Marshall Plan, after WWII was the greatest foreign policy coupe that the US ever pulled off. Those countries are still thankful to us when it is 80 years later. Ya never know when we might need their help.
The US has done virtually nothing in this administration in the way of foreign policy. Support for the rebuilding of Ukraine would be a great step in a different and correct direction.
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Bo -
I would have no problem with part of my tax dollars used to stabilize a country. The people who would object the most are probably the ones who aren't paying in in the first place. They probably sit around all day with big beer bellies complaining that the US isn't doing enough for them.
Then when someone tries to stand up to propose a solution that involves contributing money that is to be used to rebuild an economy and society, they belly ache like its their own personal savings account.
I think that the Marshall Plan, after WWII was the greatest foreign policy coupe that the US ever pulled off. Those countries are still thankful to us when it is 80 years later. Ya never know when we might need their help.
The US has done virtually nothing in this administration in the way of foreign policy. Support for the rebuilding of Ukraine would be a great step in a different and correct direction.
Good post, however who is going to evict the Russians and their mercenaries out of E. Ukraine? Nobody can even begin to think of financially helping Ukraine until their country is secure. That time is likely a long way off.
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Obama is selling out the Euromaidan revolution just like he sold out the Green Revolution.
Do you expect anything less from the real Manchurian Candidate? (as stated by Taz and correctly so)
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No point in putting the cart before the horse.
The first decision is that aid to defend themselves is the priority -- anything else is secondary at this time. Give them the weapons to neutralise the Russian invasion-- and then to drive them out.
That will break Russia if time can be created to let sanctions do their job -increase the sanctions to apply maximum pressure on Russians.
For the USA & the free democratic world--facing the problem of dealing with Russia now--while there is a motivated and capable ground force to do the job-- will be a lot easier now than the size of the problems that Russia will create in the future-problems for all the world-- and that includes the US of A.
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What a bunch of nonsense....sure forget all your internal problems in the states and go focus on a country on a continent across the ocean. :rolleyes: Why don't YOU worry about YOURSELF, your country, and not try to tell everybody else what they need to be concerned about? You have the option to go fight if you feel so strongly about it, as does anybody else....but again from your reclining chair you try to call OTHERS to action.
FT, I gotta comment, of all the things to pick on JayH for that para you quoted of his above ain't one of them. Where or how you found offence in those words is beyond me. In the language of a younger generation that was harsh.
Good post, however who is going to evict the Russians and their mercenaries out of E. Ukraine? Nobody can even begin to think of financially helping Ukraine until their country is secure. That time is likely a long way off.
True. There are a number of Canadian charitable organizations doing humanitarian aid services in country though. This being one...
http://secure.redcross.ca/registrant/sessionExpired.aspx?eID=143853&lp=en-CA
...there are others organizations, as well. Whatever organization someone might choose to donate to view them as you would this pursuit and employ due diligence. There are scams in charities as anywhere else.
Mendy,
Several years ago you wrote a piece on an orphanage/hospital. An incredible story but for the life of me I can't remember it's location or for that matter even the country, but I wonder if applicable (country wise) and it still exists, it might not be a good time, if you still have it, to blow the dust off and repost it?
Brass
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Bo -
I would have no problem with part of my tax dollars used to stabilize a country. The people who would object the most are probably the ones who aren't paying in in the first place. They probably sit around all day with big beer bellies complaining that the US isn't doing enough for them.
Then when someone tries to stand up to propose a solution that involves contributing money that is to be used to rebuild an economy and society, they belly ache like its their own personal savings account.
Haha! obviously somebody has been using the block/unblock again! :welcome:
So according to Jone, if somebody rightfully questions tax dollars being spent overseas on a foreign populace, that means they are beer-bellied, sitting around, and not paying taxes! Once again, the tactic is to demonize or demoralize those that disagree with a certain POV. The common tactic (among a certain set of posters) has been identified, is trite, and is not going to work. Since Jone is so anxious to spend 'his' money why isn't he doing so? Why isn't he donating his 'fortune'? Why is it that the rest of the citizenry of the USA are supposed to pay for a modern day Marshall Plan? There are plenty of people that need infrastructure improvements here, but they are probably lazy complaining minorities with beer bellies and unworthy of the assistance. :rolleyes:
Fathertime!
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Funds which you control disbursement of (to minimize corruption), and which improves the lives of locals comes back to you in spades. We're not talking a huge sum of money.
I would have no issues with a portion of my tax dollars being used to improve structures in Ukraine.
That is NOT always the case...has the Iraq/Afghanistan money come back in spades?
Of course you wouldn't have a problem with your tax dollars being spent...you are from Ukraine, very few ordinary citizens of the USA have that same tie that you have and therefore have different priorities.
Fathertime!
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Good post, however who is going to evict the Russians and their mercenaries out of E. Ukraine? Nobody can even begin to think of financially helping Ukraine until their country is secure. That time is likely a long way off.
I should have qualified this by saying "helping Ukraine with a Marshal type of financial plan". Of course those who have friends and family over there should be congratulated for doing their best to help Ukraine financially right now. I know of two posters here who have done that -- Akmike and Taz.
I think that most of us hope that when Ukraine no longer has a constant military threat from Russia, they will be able to receive something like a Marshal Plan. That is contingent though on Ukraine having dealth with it's corruption problem. So in all honesty there is some fear on my part that they have a long way to go. And I understand fathertimes concerns that US money should go for US needs. Most of us who read about the financial waste and cost for infrastructure in Iraq were pretty upset about it, when there were pressing needs right here in the USA.
I'm thinking of a couple of bridges that went out in the last year alone here in the USA, and it's probably the tip of the iceberg due to neglect. So clearly this is a fair concern.
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Of course you wouldn't have a problem with your tax dollars being spent...you are from Ukraine, very few ordinary citizens of the USA have that same tie that you have and therefore have different priorities.
Most Americans do not want to throw their tax dollars into saving and fixing Ukraine. Obama understands this and doing the popular thing is more important to him than doing the right thing. America isn't always going to get a good return from our money but we can be proud Germany and Japan turned out well. Average out the good investments with the bad and overall I think America does right when helping other nations get back on their feet and be a productive member in the world community.
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What a bunch of nonsense....sure forget all your internal problems in the states and go focus on a country on a continent across the ocean. :rolleyes: Why don't YOU worry about YOURSELF, your country, and not try to tell everybody else what they need to be concerned about? You have the option to go fight if you feel so strongly about it, as does anybody else....but again from your reclining chair you try to call OTHERS to action.
Fathertime!
Who are you exactly to tell anyone what to do with their time? He loves Ukraine. You love yourself
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I should have qualified this by saying "helping Ukraine with a Marshal type of financial plan". Of course those who have friends and family over there should be congratulated for doing their best to help Ukraine financially right now. I know of two posters here who have done that -- Akmike and Taz.
I think that most of us hope that when Ukraine no longer has a constant military threat from Russia, they will be able to receive something like a Marshal Plan. That is contingent though on Ukraine having dealth with it's corruption problem. So in all honesty there is some fear on my part that they have a long way to go. And I understand fathertimes concerns that US money should go for US needs. Most of us who read about the financial waste and cost for infrastructure in Iraq were pretty upset about it, when there were pressing needs right here in the USA.
I'm thinking of a couple of bridges that went out in the last year alone here in the USA, and it's probably the tip of the iceberg due to neglect. So clearly this is a fair concern.
US money going to US needs? We are talking about the same FT, right? He hates America.
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US money going to US needs? We are talking about the same FT, right? He hates America.
You must be very angry again....GOOD! Don't blame me, I was for making more real efforts to negotiate peace early on (while you insisted there be bloodshed)...this is playing out badly for Ukraine, just the way some part of you probably wanted it to.
Fathertime!
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Bo -
I would have no problem with part of my tax dollars used to stabilize a country. The people who would object the most are probably the ones who aren't paying in in the first place. They probably sit around all day with big beer bellies complaining that the US isn't doing enough for them.
Then when someone tries to stand up to propose a solution that involves contributing money that is to be used to rebuild an economy and society, they belly ache like its their own personal savings account.
Ah, jone passing out those blanket statements he seems to have a problem with. Jone seems to think charity is best spent overseas while using money to help fellow Americans is considered welfare because they are all beer drinking lazy people.
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Ahh, you have jone all wrong. He doesn't believe this worth going to war over that would include aiding Ukraine. Tell us again about your awesome love life again.
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You must be very angry again....GOOD! Don't blame me, I was for making more real efforts to negotiate peace early on (while you insisted there be bloodshed)...this is playing out badly for Ukraine, just the way some part of you probably wanted it to.
Fathertime!
Really? What does peace look like FT? Are there Russians in Eastern Ukraine? Has Russia invaded? Who shot down MH 17?
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Ah, jone passing out those blanket statements he seems to have a problem with. Jone seems to think charity is best spent overseas while using money to help fellow Americans is considered welfare because they are all beer drinking lazy people.
Nope. Wrong again.
A successfully run business always has a charitable wing to it. We donate to many worthy causes here in the US. We also donate to those who are less fortunate in other countries.
As for laziness, I grew up in the Midwest. We were hardworking and upstanding people. I cannot understand that work ethic that pervades Southern California. But I do say this: I was surprised at the pushback from you, LFU. I would think you would be one of the first on the bandwagon hoping to give the people who welcomed you in their country a hand up in their time of crisis.
Tell me, when is the last time you helped a street person - or volunteered your time for something that was not self serving? I hope it was quite recent because I don't see you as a self serving sociopath. I see you as someone who stands up for what he believes in.
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Nope. Wrong again.
A successfully run business always has a charitable wing to it. We donate to many worthy causes here in the US. We also donate to those who are less fortunate in other countries.
What a self-serving statement.....in other words: "I"m great and successful"....it is just unverifiable complimentary words YOU write about YOURSELF.
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As for laziness, I grew up in the Midwest. We were hardworking and upstanding people. I cannot understand that work ethic that pervades Southern California.
So when are you moving? Obviously you are too good for the people here.... :rolleyes:
: I was surprised at the pushback from you, LFU. I would think you would be one of the first on the bandwagon hoping to give the people who welcomed you in their country a hand up in their time of crisis.
Tell me, when is the last time you helped a street person - or volunteered your time for something that was not self serving? I hope it was quite recent because I don't see you as a self serving sociopath. I see you as someone who stands up for what he believes in.
Platitudes and brow-nosing from the same guy who just called people beer-bellied non tax payers because they may have other priorities (within our borders) and not Ukraine. You better agree with him LFU or you are a 'self serving sociopath' or a 'beer bellied lazy man'!
Fathertime!
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That is NOT always the case...has the Iraq/Afghanistan money come back in spades?
Of course you wouldn't have a problem with your tax dollars being spent...you are from Ukraine, very few ordinary citizens of the USA have that same tie that you have and therefore have different priorities.
Fathertime!
Wrong. I am not from Ukraine. As I have posted previously, I am Canadian born, as are my parents, and 2 of my grandparents. One of my grandfathers was born in Boston, raised in Canada, and considered himself Canadian. Even 6 of my great grandparents were Canadian born.
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What does peace look like FT? Are there Russians in Eastern Ukraine? Has Russia invaded? Who shot down MH 17?
Hey, FT hypothetical, when you see someone getting beaten and raped, do you shrug and say not my fight? Is neutrality worthy of praise? Tell us, FT.
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Wrong. I am not from Ukraine. As I have posted previously, I am Canadian born, as are my parents, and 2 of my grandparents. One of my grandfathers was born in Boston, raised in Canada, and considered himself Canadian. Even 6 of my great grandparents were Canadian born.
I think the point remains that you have a much greater interest in Ukraine then the average citizen therefore you are more willing to use tax dollars to Ukraine.
What does peace look like FT? Are there Russians in Eastern Ukraine? Has Russia invaded? Who shot down MH 17?
Hey, FT hypothetical, when you see someone getting beaten and raped, do you shrug and say not my fight? Is neutrality worthy of praise? Tell us, FT.
You seem to have the same silly questions for practically everybody. If you don't know the answers to your questions, then look them up, this is old ground.
Fathertime!
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I think the point remains that you have a much greater interest in Ukraine then the average citizen therefore you are more willing to use tax dollars to Ukraine.
No, I would have the same response for Rwanda, or Argentina, or Bosnia. It is not the country that is at issue.
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Nope. Wrong again.
A successfully run business always has a charitable wing to it. We donate to many worthy causes here in the US. We also donate to those who are less fortunate in other countries.
As for laziness, I grew up in the Midwest. We were hardworking and upstanding people. I cannot understand that work ethic that pervades Southern California. But I do say this: I was surprised at the pushback from you, LFU. I would think you would be one of the first on the bandwagon hoping to give the people who welcomed you in their country a hand up in their time of crisis.
Tell me, when is the last time you helped a street person - or volunteered your time for something that was not self serving? I hope it was quite recent because I don't see you as a self serving sociopath. I see you as someone who stands up for what he believes in.
Didn't we just talk about pushback when making blanket statements? You just got some pushback on your blanket beer guzzling statement. ;)
I'm from the midwest as well. While there are a lot of beer drinkers there, they are also hard working blue collar people who just want a good life. Some may be riding the system but that isn't he majority. Most just want to work and feel pride for being able to take care of their families.
Unfortunately those types of jobs are dwindling and will continue to do so.
As for tax money, I never said anything about what we should be doing. If asking, I rather see some of tax money go towards helping others unless it means raising them in order to afford so. Meaning if we had a surplus.
The problem we have is spending, spending, spending... and the line must be drawn even if painful. Raising gas taxes to afford road repairs (besides the 18 trillion deficit) tells me we don't have extra money to help. We have a lot of things that can be done domestically before we send money overseas. Take care of local stuff first, then help others further out has always been my opinion.
You need to take care of yourself first and foremost. You won't be able to help anyone if you don't.
Ukraine has a special place in my heart like many here, but there are a lot of places that could use help. We give a lot already.
I won't be rattling off whom and what I do for charitable work. Charitable work is good for the soul and I recommend it to anyone capable of spending extra time or money to do so. No one is stopping you and others here from dedicating their time and money to go to Ukraine and help rebuild. I will be thinking about that myself when peace, in the area, comes.
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US lawmakers urged to provide weapons for Ukraine
US Senate's Armed Services Committee discusses response to Russian invasion of Ukraine
Zbigniew Brzezinski, who served as US National Security Adivsor under Jimmy Carter, has appealed to American lawmakers to provide weapons to Ukraine. He made the plea during a meeting of the Senate Armed Services Committee, which was discussing Russian aggression towrard Ukraine.
Zbigniew Brzezinski, Political scientist: "My hope is that your deliberations will shape a bipartisan national security strategy. Such bipartisanship is badly needed, and I think we all know
http://uatoday.tv/geopolitics/former-us-security-advisor-urges-lawmakers-to-provide-weapons-to-ukraine-404478.html
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US lawmakers urged to provide weapons for Ukraine
US Senate's Armed Services Committee discusses response to Russian invasion of Ukraine
Zbigniew Brzezinski, who served as US National Security Adivsor under Jimmy Carter, has appealed to American lawmakers to provide weapons to Ukraine. He made the plea during a meeting of the Senate Armed Services Committee, which was discussing Russian aggression towrard Ukraine.
Zbigniew Brzezinski, Political scientist: "My hope is that your deliberations will shape a bipartisan national security strategy. Such bipartisanship is badly needed, and I think we all know
http://uatoday.tv/geopolitics/former-us-security-advisor-urges-lawmakers-to-provide-weapons-to-ukraine-404478.html (http://uatoday.tv/geopolitics/former-us-security-advisor-urges-lawmakers-to-provide-weapons-to-ukraine-404478.html)
Where have I heard that name before?
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Where have I heard that name before?
The one consistent piece of stupidity all these pro-Russian apologists persist with is in not reading what is written--or read links provided-- so the answer is-- der,duh -in the post above!! -- Quote "Zbigniew Brzezinski, who served as US National Security Adivsor under Jimmy Carter"
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Steamer, if you don't know who Zbig is keep it to yourself or google it. You seem like a nice guy just not very informed.
What does peace look like FT? Are there Russians in Eastern Ukraine? Has Russia invaded? Who shot down MH 17?
Hey, FT hypothetical, when you see someone getting beaten and raped, do you shrug and say not my fight? Is neutrality worthy of praise? Tell us, FT
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FT, forgive my hazy memory, but was Neville Chamberlain your grandfather, or was he your great-Uncle?
I am going to repeat something that you obviously do not have (yet) the capacity to understand:
- Mr. Putin does not want a piece of Ukraine in exchange for peace. His hopes of building Russia into something other than a Siberian gas filling station is dependent upon having Ukraine's vast agriculture and educated workforce as part of the Eurasian Union. Without that, his trading bloc is a small limp penis in a world of big Dicks. Simple as that.
- He will take a sliver and slice for now, as long as the West breathes a sigh of relief and then cancels the sanctions. He is a patient man, and understands that the Neville Chamberlains of this world are incredibly stupid and will never learn. Because he takes the long view, he will come back for more--until someone has the balls to make him stop.
Whoever and whatever makes him stop will not be Neville Chamberlain, just in case you are wondering.
Now, in some ways you and I are one the same page in this one respect: we understand that Putin has painted himself into a corner and needs an "out" of this mess. Giving him territory that belongs to someone else is not that recipe for peace (see the above). In fact, it would be the height of stupidity.
I was around when he desperately wanted entry into the WTO. The World Trade Organization represented a prize for Russia, and the WTO relaxed regulations regarding protectionism and competition in order to let Russia in. This process started in 1993. Iceland, a member of NATO, got the process started. The Russian Federation entered the WTO in August of 2012. Behind the scenes, a lot of "carrots" were used, especially by the USA, to make it happen. During the first term of George W. Bush, the US, with the help of the UK, had to win the support of several WTO members, notably France and Germany, in order to keep the process moving forward.
Of the things that Russia needs now, several of the most pressing issues include development of Arctic resources, the Eurasian Union, and the loss of credit markets due to targeted credit sanctions.
The West might do well to consider partnerships in the Arctic (some were already in the works prior to the annexation of Crimea) without giving up legitimate claims there, to aid Russia. The West can have dramatic impact on not only reducing exploration time, but in streamlining and making such work efficient. The easing of credit would come with the removal of sanctions, and so the hard part is the Eurasian Union. I understand that you have yet to comprehend this, but the current struggle over Ukraine is not over some coal miners who mistakenly believed false rumours that the Russian language would be taken away from them; rather the real issue is Ukraine's desire to turn toward a more Western way of life, and the hard reality is that presently it means opting out of the Eurasian Union.
We both know that the EU really does not need another financial drain by a weak and new member. The long term benefits would be there, but would take years to cultivate. We must also understand that the people of Ukraine likely do not want to be a part of the EU as much as they long for the economic and political transparency, rule of law, and economic equality that is just not available by staying in the shadow of a corrupt neighbor. Positive changes in Russia would, I believe, cause Ukrainians to perhaps give the Eurasian Union a chance, provided a clear mechanism for withdrawal from the union should Russia lurch backward. (Kazakhstan and Belarus have such mechanisms in their membership with the union already.) Those positive changes, however, are not near and dear to Mr. Putin's worldview.
We can give Putin some territory today, and nothing will have changed. And, be sure, he will come for more next week. That is the game he understands. To give him that would be indescribably stupid.
It would be easy, in the short term, to sacrifice Ukraine and let him take whatever he wants. Unfortunately, we'd soon discover that Ukraine is not all that he wants. As just one example, Poland is not uneasy because Pole's have different recipes for borsch, no, Poles have unease because of Russian history.
Another option is that we proceed ahead to WWIII, and possibly turn the clock back to 1918, or worse, while suffering tremendous loss of life.
The real hard work is finding a carrot and a solution. The carrot is for a certain KGB Colonel. The solution would be for good and decent Ukrainian people, who deserve better than simply being thrown back to the same old wolf.
Can we find the right carrot, and the right solution?
I do not yet know.
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You guys don't recognize sarcasm.
I wrote about him yesterday and his book "The Grand Chess Game". It's about why the new front in the war against Russia is Eastern Europe. He urges constant action with the grand prize being Ukraine. I listened to him give a speech on this very subject about 10 years ago.
LT- you should try to read some books. Books good...Hulk likes books
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You guys don't recognize sarcasm.
I wrote about him yesterday and his book "The Grand Chess Game". It's about why the new front in the war against Russia is Eastern Europe. He urges constant action with the grand prize being Ukraine. I listened to him give a speech on this very subject about 10 years ago.
LT- you should try to read some books. Books good...Hulk likes books
lol Hilarious. Steamer, JayH posts articles. He isn't so much for reading other points of views. He is more of a call everyone ignorant and post yahoo stories type of guy.
LT, well, he is LT and more interested in men's sex lives. Great entertainment though. A+
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Steamer, how do you want it? Gloves on or off?
lFU, I didn't know you had a sex life. I do want to invite you to go fornicate yourself.
Mendeleyev, correct me if I am wrong, but Putin is a bully. Bullies understand one thing a hard line. We have yet to draw one. We are on the edge of World War because the degree of miscalculation is so high.
There is a rumor that Igor Girkin told his men to approach but do not invade Mariupol. He feared it would be a bloodbath. The Russians took Grozny in the second Chechen war after seven months of seige with air and artillery assets in place. Russia can seize Mariupol but it would have to abandon its hybrid war strategy. It doesn't have enough troops to bypass Mariupol.
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Mendeleyev, correct me if I am wrong, but Putin is a bully. Bullies understand one thing a hard line. We have yet to draw one. We are on the edge of World War because the degree of miscalculation is so high.
There is a rumor that Igor Girkin told his men to approach but do not invade Mariupol. He feared it would be a bloodbath. The Russians took Grozny in the second Chechen war after seven months of seige with air and artillery assets in place. Russia can seize Mariupol but it would have to abandon its hybrid war strategy. It doesn't have enough troops to bypass Mariupol.
My hope today is that this is a clear cut Russian attack on a civilian city-- no shades to divert blame-- and that as a result the real life humanitarian crisis unfolding will jump start the west into action.
fwiw-Ukrainians say that defences are good of the city. As a starter-- they say that they were able to destroy the particular sources of that attack on Mauripol yesterday. The ability for artillery to target so accurately is a result of defensive tech already supplied--what they now need is the ability to target so accurately prior to those weapons being used.
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The demise of Ukraine will mean the end of NATO and the EU. Who would want to join a group that is so morally debased?
O BTW, that Mogherini woman wants to relax sanctions with Russia.
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lol Hilarious. Steamer, JayH posts articles. He isn't so much for reading other points of views. He is more of a call everyone ignorant and post yahoo stories type of guy.
I post articles and links in the hope heathens like you might actually learn something form the 97% who are expressing opinions and factual stories that you and others are in denial about- and is supporting evidence of many of my own conclusions.
Sure beats trying to tell the world that black is white!
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Steamer, how do you want it? Gloves on or off?
WWJD ?
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I post articles and links in the hope heathens like you might actually learn something form the 97% who are expressing opinions and factual stories that you and others are in denial about- and is supporting evidence of many of my own conclusions.
Sure beats trying to tell the world that black is white!
Heathens? hahah now you sound like a hysterical aunt Esther.
(http://asalinotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/San-and-Esther-back-together-again.jpg)
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WWJD ?
Gloves off. Ask Motorola.
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Heathens? hahah now you sound like a hysterical aunt Esther.
(http://asalinotes.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/San-and-Esther-back-together-again.jpg)
What a patriot . . .
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FT, forgive my hazy memory, but was Neville Chamberlain your grandfather, or was he your great-Uncle?
I am going to repeat something that you obviously do not have (yet) the capacity to understand:
- Mr. Putin does not want a piece of Ukraine in exchange for peace. His hopes of building Russia into something other than a Siberian gas filling station is dependent upon having Ukraine's vast agriculture and educated workforce as part of the Eurasian Union. Without that, his trading bloc is a small limp penis in a world of big Dicks. Simple as that.
- He will take a sliver and slice for now, as long as the West breathes a sigh of relief and then cancels the sanctions. He is a patient man, and understands that the Neville Chamberlains of this world are incredibly stupid and will never learn. Because he takes the long view, he will come back for more--until someone has the balls to make him stop.
Whoever and whatever makes him stop will not be Neville Chamberlain, just in case you are wondering.
Now, in some ways you and I are one the same page in this one respect: we understand that Putin has painted himself into a corner and needs an "out" of this mess. Giving him territory that belongs to someone else is not that recipe for peace (see the above). In fact, it would be the height of stupidity.
I was around when he desperately wanted entry into the WTO. The World Trade Organization represented a prize for Russia, and the WTO relaxed regulations regarding protectionism and competition in order to let Russia in. This process started in 1993. Iceland, a member of NATO, got the process started. The Russian Federation entered the WTO in August of 2012. Behind the scenes, a lot of "carrots" were used, especially by the USA, to make it happen. During the first term of George W. Bush, the US, with the help of the UK, had to win the support of several WTO members, notably France and Germany, in order to keep the process moving forward.
Of the things that Russia needs now, several of the most pressing issues include development of Arctic resources, the Eurasian Union, and the loss of credit markets due to targeted credit sanctions.
The West might do well to consider partnerships in the Arctic (some were already in the works prior to the annexation of Crimea) without giving up legitimate claims there, to aid Russia. The West can have dramatic impact on not only reducing exploration time, but in streamlining and making such work efficient. The easing of credit would come with the removal of sanctions, and so the hard part is the Eurasian Union. I understand that you have yet to comprehend this, but the current struggle over Ukraine is not over some coal miners who mistakenly believed false rumours that the Russian language would be taken away from them; rather the real issue is Ukraine's desire to turn toward a more Western way of life, and the hard reality is that presently it means opting out of the Eurasian Union.
We both know that the EU really does not need another financial drain by a weak and new member. The long term benefits would be there, but would take years to cultivate. We must also understand that the people of Ukraine likely do not want to be a part of the EU as much as they long for the economic and political transparency, rule of law, and economic equality that is just not available by staying in the shadow of a corrupt neighbor. Positive changes in Russia would, I believe, cause Ukrainians to perhaps give the Eurasian Union a chance, provided a clear mechanism for withdrawal from the union should Russia lurch backward. (Kazakhstan and Belarus have such mechanisms in their membership with the union already.) Those positive changes, however, are not near and dear to Mr. Putin's worldview.
We can give Putin some territory today, and nothing will have changed. And, be sure, he will come for more next week. That is the game he understands. To give him that would be indescribably stupid.
It would be easy, in the short term, to sacrifice Ukraine and let him take whatever he wants. Unfortunately, we'd soon discover that Ukraine is not all that he wants. As just one example, Poland is not uneasy because Pole's have different recipes for borsch, no, Poles have unease because of Russian history.
Another option is that we proceed ahead to WWIII, and possibly turn the clock back to 1918, or worse, while suffering tremendous loss of life.
The real hard work is finding a carrot and a solution. The carrot is for a certain KGB Colonel. The solution would be for good and decent Ukrainian people, who deserve better than simply being thrown back to the same old wolf.
Can we find the right carrot, and the right solution?
I do not yet know.
Finally a serious post!
I realize your viewpoint and if I had the same viewpoint as you, I probably think the same way you are thinking.
It could be that the USA is happy enough as things stand....Russia used to have de facto control over Ukraine, but now they are having to fight to maintain the control they once had without fighting.
Yes offering the right carrots makes sense to me...actually it always has as I considered that a part of the negotiation.
You are mistaken when you mention that you think I've bought into the whole 'Russian language issue' among coal minors or whoever...Although there probably is support for Russia in those regions, I also realize the populace is propagandized as well. I also think we are propagandized as well, although to a lessor extent.
You are certain Putin is going for all of Ukraine, I don't think so....we will find out. You seem to feel that he may also go for Poland or some other border nation in Europe. I don't think so, as that insures we will have a very big battle and will not end well for Russia as many nations would team up against them.
If indeed Russia is going for all of Ukraine as you say...then first Ukraine needs to fight, when I look at all those videos, I see 'Fighting age' men all walking past dead bodies like they are cord-wood, rather indifferent...Why is Ukraine half-assing their own fight?...anyway..then if Europe thinks it is worthwhile they need to fight...then perhaps the US would get involved, if we think it is worthwhile....although risking world war in this particular case doesn't seem worthwhile to me, but I'm not privy to all the information our representatives are.
Thanks for keeping it civil.
Fathertime!
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Can we find the right carrot, and the right solution?
Obama has a habit of giving money to bad actors around the world in hopes they behave to deliver hope of a more peaceful and kind world when he became President. Putin, one of the richest men on earth and recipient of American tax dollars, will not be motivated by money anymore. Russia's glory and his legacy matters most to him now. Offer him the all the countries he wants or kill a lot of Russians in Ukraine. Let him feel like he won the lottery or install the fear of death and ruin his legacy. Those two carrots will get him to back off.
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FT, finally a serious post? I just keep repeating myself. However I am glad that perhaps you are starting to pay attention.
I really don't have to think about some of this stuff. Not only have I been a member of the press pool covering both president and prime minister, but my first trips to Syria and then Egypt were part of a nonpartisan observer team sent by the Russians. I've been back to both as a human rights observer and when on the second Egyptian trip we ran into a little problem getting out safely, it was the Kremlin that made sure we made it.
Some will think it odd, but although I consider him dangerous in many ways, in others we have a mutual respect. Many years ago he was the second government official with who I communicated plans to marry my wife. The Russian Minister of Communications and Mass Media at the time was the first person I consulted after her family and our priest. The man is no stranger, and I have no need for theories or opinions when it comes to understanding certain priorities regarding Ukraine as it relates to the Eurasian Union.
In regards to Eastern support for Russia, the folks who show up to vote at referendums are the ones who plan to vote the way the referendum organizers intend. Those organizers have guns, lots of firepower, and who wants to risk voting contrary to the guys with the firepower? Most who do not agree are smart enough to stay home...or go shopping...or be out of town on polling day.
Putin fears NATO encroachment. If he detects weakness, he will test NATO. He does not believe that NATO will sweep in to protect most small European states. He thinks the current US president to be a weakling. In this sense, Ukraine is part of a bigger test. I will not comment personally on the US leadership now, but Mr. Putin and Sergei Lavrov (a tough, hardass as nails, highly intelligent, and trusted colleague to the president) are on the same page with that assessment. Both view Kerry even less, and either could barely stomach Mrs. Clinton.
All it takes for NATO to be defanged, is for it to fail to defend one member. Were that to ever happen, NATO is finished, and Putin and Lavrov would rejoice for decades were that to happen.
He may be wrong in his thinking. I hope so.
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FT, finally a serious post?
Your posts are almost always serious, I was Juxtaposing your post with the 50 others here when I logged in, talking about blow up dolls, heathens, etc etc
Fathertime!
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Putin fears NATO encroachment. If he detects weakness, he will test NATO. He does not believe that NATO will sweep in to protect most small European states. He thinks the current US president to be a weakling. In this sense, Ukraine is part of a bigger test. I will not comment personally on the US leadership now, but Mr. Putin and Sergei Lavrov (a tough, hardass as nails, highly intelligent, and trusted colleague to the president) are on the same page with that assessment. Both view Kerry even less, and either could barely stomach Mrs. Clinton.
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Attempting to look at things from his perspective, I can see why he doesn't want further NATO encroachment. As far as Kerry goes, lets just say, thankfully he didn't win when he had his chance. Mrs. Clinton still has a chance to be president, so hopefully he finds a way to accept that without being dismissive (if it becomes the case).
All it takes for NATO to be defanged, is for it to fail to defend one member. Were that to ever happen, NATO is finished, and Putin and Lavrov would rejoice for decades were that to happen.
He may be wrong in his thinking. I hope so.
I don't see NATO not defending a member state. I don't see Putin creating this type of mischief in a NATO state. What a terrible war that would be. Ukraine has been a different story.
Fathertime!
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Putin fears NATO encroachment. If he detects weakness, he will test NATO. He does not believe that NATO will sweep in to protect most small European states. He thinks the current US president to be a weakling. In this sense, Ukraine is part of a bigger test. I will not comment personally on the US leadership now, but Mr. Putin and Sergei Lavrov (a tough, hardass as nails, highly intelligent, and trusted colleague to the president) are on the same page with that assessment. Both view Kerry even less, and either could barely stomach Mrs. Clinton.
This has been the problem from day one, however he must know that there is a high probability that a conservative Republican is going to win the White House in 2016. Does he really think that an all red USA is going to let his insanity stand?
Obviously most of this never would have happened in the first place if Mitt Romney had won the election in 2012, but as Donald Trump just said he "choked" his opportunity. A Jeb Bush or a Ted Cruz or a Mike Huckabee or the fat guy from New Jersey will not let Putin continue to get away with this stuff. Putin may yet get half of Ukraine but it's going to be very bloody and I seriously doubt if he would ever get W. Ukraine.
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Your posts are almost always serious, I was Juxtaposing your post with the 50 others here when I logged in, talking about blow up dolls, heathens, etc etc
Fathertime!
You Novorossiya types always keep it classy
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Tank troops fight to contain rebel expansion in eastern Ukraine
By Tom Parfitt, Zhelanne3:48PM GMT 24 Jan 2015
Vadim Ozirny is hoping for reinforcements.
The 46-year-old Ukrainian tank commander says politicians might yet stop the conflict that grips the east of his country, but supplies of arms from the West would bring a quicker result.
“Can we win this war? Can we bring it to an end? I don’t know. This is not toys; it’s not players on a football field. Give me some British Challengers or German Leopards and the Russians will be afraid to come out against us.”
Captain Ozirny is in charge of 33 men and ten tanks, mostly ageing Soviet T-64s. Last week, he and his company were caught in the thick of battles on the northwest rim of Donetsk, the million-strong city which is the stronghold of pro-Russian separatists.
The war in eastern Ukraine is escalating after months of skirmishes. On Saturday, 27 civilians were reportedly killed and 97 injured when Grad rockets fell on a neighbourhood of Mariupol on the Sea of Azov.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11367411/Tank-troops-fight-to-contain-rebel-expansion-in-eastern-Ukraine.html
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Canada delivers first installment of Improved First Aid Kits to Ukrainian soldiers
(http://www.kyivpost.com/media/images/2015/01/26/p19cj9kbuv1lcjkjb7br1f7p1hq04/big.jpg)
..."Canadian Minister of International Trade Edward Fast and Canada’s Ambassador to Ukraine Roman Waschuk visited the Canada-Ukraine Chamber of Commerce in Kyiv to deliver the first installment of Improved First Aid Kits (IFAKs) for Ukrainian soldiers on Jan. 26.
Canada is providing IFAKs for Ukrainian soldiers in conjunction with Combat Lifesaver training by instructors from the humanitarian initiative of the Ukrainian World Congress “Patriot Defence”.
Beginning in May, “Patriot Defense” has trained over 12,000 Ukrainian soldiers in adapted Combat Lifesaver courses based on the same curriculum used by Canadian Armed Forces and NATO. More than 9,500 IFAKs have been distributed to those trained soldiers."...
http://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/photo/government-of-canada-delivered-the-first-installment-of-improved-first-aid-kits-for-ukrainian-soldiers-378475.html
...For crying out loud... We need to do more. Weaponry, send them weaponry.
Brass
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At last we are at the business end of this decision.The US is on the verge-- the acid is being put on the NATO EU nations to join in and help.
I do not agree that this cannot be won militarily-- it can and it will be. In fact--it is the only way. The bully nation in Russia needs to be confronted and cut down to size -- and the Russian people learn the truth of the kleptocrats in control of Russia and their craziness.
Any escalation by Russia--needs to be met with much bigger force and more serious consequences for Russia.
A serious effort by NATO-- the spells it out to Russia-- any attack that emanates out of Russia--by aircraft,missile,whatever-- the source will be attacked & destroyed wherever it is-including inside Russia anywhere. Declare a complete nofly zone within 50/100kms of Ukraine border by ANY aircraft whatsoever. I believe when faced with a defeat on the ground-the truly dumb Huilo will seek to escalate-- and attempt to use air power-that needs to be anticipated.
Some uncompromising bullying needs to be done-- when Huilo decides it is time to negotiate-- sure--when the eastern border is secure from Russians-- then it is time to discuss the Crimea. Of course-- I would dick Huilo around in talks-stall while the east is cleared of Russian scum.
US, UK, Other NATO Alliance Members Must Decide Independently Whether To Arm Ukraine Or Not Vs Russia
Jens Stoltenberg, NATO secretary-general, has admitted the alliance has started to seriously broach on the idea of lethally arming Ukraine against Russia. Earlier, alliance-member United States said it is open to finally provide arms and weapons to the Kiev forces. However, Stoltenberg said any decision to send lethal arms to Ukraine would be a decision undertaken and approved by each member-state.
Stoltenberg said discussions are currently taking place among NATO members regarding furnishing Ukraine with arms and weapons. However, NATO as a body “does not possess weapons,” Stoltenberg said on the sidelines of the Munich Security Conference in Germany. This meant that the decision to arm Ukraine will be made independently by each member-state and not as a group. “I will limit myself to say that we have an ongoing discussion on how we can help Ukraine and every nation has the right to protect and defend itself.”
http://au.ibtimes.com/us-uk-other-nato-alliance-members-must-decide-independently-whether-arm-ukraine-or-not-vs-russia
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Canada delivers first installment of Improved First Aid Kits to Ukrainian soldiers
(http://www.kyivpost.com/media/images/2015/01/26/p19cj9kbuv1lcjkjb7br1f7p1hq04/big.jpg)
..."Canadian Minister of International Trade Edward Fast and Canada’s Ambassador to Ukraine Roman Waschuk visited the Canada-Ukraine Chamber of Commerce in Kyiv to deliver the first installment of Improved First Aid Kits (IFAKs) for Ukrainian soldiers on Jan. 26.
Canada is providing IFAKs for Ukrainian soldiers in conjunction with Combat Lifesaver training by instructors from the humanitarian initiative of the Ukrainian World Congress “Patriot Defence”.
Beginning in May, “Patriot Defense” has trained over 12,000 Ukrainian soldiers in adapted Combat Lifesaver courses based on the same curriculum used by Canadian Armed Forces and NATO. More than 9,500 IFAKs have been distributed to those trained soldiers."...
http://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/photo/government-of-canada-delivered-the-first-installment-of-improved-first-aid-kits-for-ukrainian-soldiers-378475.html
...For crying out loud... We need to do more. Weaponry, send them weaponry.
Brass
There is no Canadian version of the Ukrainian freedom act. Why? Obama agrees with Merkel. No weapons for Ukraine. Why? The Ukrainian freedom act authorizes but doesn't allocate money (peanuts) to Ukraine. Why?
To paraphrase John McCain to Angela Merkel, how many Ukrainians have to die before we arm Ukraine?
Yugoslavia was not in NATO, but the only way to stop Slobodan Milosevic was NATO ground troops. If we do not reinforce Ukraine with superior weapons and training, NATO will be involved.
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There is no Canadian version of the Ukrainian freedom act. Why? Obama agrees with Merkel. No weapons for Ukraine. Why? The Ukrainian freedom act authorizes but doesn't allocate money (peanuts) to Ukraine. Why?
To paraphrase John McCain to Angela Merkel, how many Ukrainians have to die before we arm Ukraine?
Yugoslavia was not in NATO, but the only way to stop Slobodan Milosevic was NATO ground troops. If we do not reinforce Ukraine with superior weapons and training, NATO will be involved.
The question I have is why the frumpy frau was content to do nothing until the very day the POTUS made public he was considering sending military aid to Ukraine.
Now all of sudden she's out the door busier than a one legged cat in a sandbox running interference for the criminal dictator of Russia trying to forestall the inevitable.
Merkel certainly wasn't as motivated to save Putin's a$$ before Obama stated he was considering sending weapons. What's up with that?
Your question: The Prime Minister has prerogative power to declare war, deploy Canadian Forces or otherwise render military aid at his/her discretion.
The PM normally consults Parliament, allows debate or a vote on the subject as a courtesy but Parliament's consent isn't required by statute law. edit to add; in other words Canada doesn't need to pass a law to give the PM the power to act. He/she already has it.
Brass
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The PM normally consults Parliament, allows debate or a vote on the subject as a courtesy but Parliament's consent isn't required by statute law. edit to add; in other words Canada doesn't need to pass a law to give the PM the power to act. He/she already has it.
Brass
If George Bush Jr. or Romney were President the Ukrainians would have had weapons to defend themselves nearly a year ago and Putin would have already pulled his troops out of Ukraine. A strong defense saves lives, a weak defense causes the loss of more lives and territory.
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What if?
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Uh... he is? Then he should accept! :clapping:
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I wish our President spoke like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SV8nowZF614
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The question I have is why the frumpy frau was content to do nothing until the very day the POTUS made public he was considering sending military aid to Ukraine.
Now all of sudden she's out the door busier than a one legged cat in a sandbox running interference for the criminal dictator of Russia trying to forestall the inevitable.
Merkel certainly wasn't as motivated to save Putin's a$$ before Obama stated he was considering sending weapons. What's up with that?
Your question: The Prime Minister has prerogative power to declare war, deploy Canadian Forces or otherwise render military aid at his/her discretion.
The PM normally consults Parliament, allows debate or a vote on the subject as a courtesy but Parliament's consent isn't required by statute law. edit to add; in other words Canada doesn't need to pass a law to give the PM the power to act. He/she already has it.
Brass
It's a pretty good bet that if Obama should send armaments and munitions to Ukraine they will stage in Germany unless Merkel denies it. Merkel will have a choice to make for appeasement, the U.S. or Russia. She's pretty much planted her flag with the U.S. but that was before firepower against Russia is coming from Germany. Oh what a web we weave, huh? I don't believe for a minute that Obama will okay any shipment to Ukraine
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Ha. Maybe he could NOT supply weapons like Putin does NOT supply weapons...
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They could stage in Poland or Romania.
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Since this thread started there have been a lot of developments that have become a reality with nato countries assisting Ukraine.fact is that it is now a large number of countries giving assistance. Time has worked in Ukraine's favour as the military has become better organised and equipped-at least with basic needs-if not the best military hardware they now have decent uniforms and boots !
Of course the on the ground real life exposure of Nato military is not good news for Russia-- seeing and learning of how the Russians have gone about the invasion in Ukraine has been and is teaching western countries some very precise details of the Russian military>
Instructing Ukrainian troops a wake-up call for Canadian soldiers
A fresh batch of Canadian military trainers is about to deploy to eastern Europe, and the outgoing commander says his soldiers took a lot of their own notes in addition to handing out assignments to Ukrainian troops.
Lt.-Col. Jason Guiney, who is about to end his five-month stint, says even though their training bases are 1,200 kilometres away from the fighting in the breakaway eastern regions, his troops have learned a lot about the nature of the conflict.
“It’s a very big wake-up call for us as an institution,” Guiney said Thursday in a telephone interview from Lviv, located in western Ukraine.
In dealing with Ukrainian troops, he said, they’ve had an up-close look at how Moscow-backed separatists have mixed high-tech Russian weaponry, cyberattacks, propaganda, conventional warfare and insurgency warfare into a toxic, deadly campaign.
“There’s a lot of very modern Russian equipment in there,” Guiney said, referring to armoured vehicles that have the ability to deflect anti-tank rockets.
“We’ve learned about how Ukrainians are deploying methods to defeat that.”
The speed and sophistication of the conflict, which began with Russia’s annexation of Crimea in March 2014, has startled many western military planners who’ve come to describe what’s happening the country as hybrid warfare.
“We’ve learned they’ve experienced cyberattacks; electronic warfare, like radio jamming; heavy use of drones, like UAVs, which are used for precision artillery strikes,” he said.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/instructing-ukrainian-troops-a-wake-up-call-for-canadian-trainers/article28048695/
http://vimeo.com/54266288
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Many times back in 2014 I kept hearing solid opinions and information that military aid would be forthcoming to Ukraine from the US-either directly or thru Nato.
At that time- I repeatedly heard that help was coming.
The story below will confirm that it was not a pipe dream( as many tried to tell us here) but was the opinion and attitude of the people in the know. Later I learnt that it was only the extreme inner circle of Obama advisors opposed- a position that exists today.
Hacked e-mails reveal how NATO general tried to convince Obama to arm Ukraine
Breedlove, during briefings to Congress, notably contradicted the Obama administration regarding the situation in Ukraine, leading to news stories about conflict between the general and Obama.
But the leaked emails provide an even more dramatic picture of the intense back-channel lobbying for the Obama administration to begin a proxy war with Russia in Ukraine.
In a series of messages in 2014, Breedlove sought meetings with former Secretary of State Colin Powell, asking for advice on how to pressure the Obama administration to take a more aggressive posture toward Russia.
http://theintercept.com/2016/07/01/nato-general-emails/