Where to bring up Children?

[John Gaunt]

I'm not really one in favour of private schools. In the UK private schools can run the risk of cutting kids if from the rest of society. At worst it can make them not very street wise and the other main negative is that it can give them a posh accent. Now maybe some US guys & girls might dig that but in the UK it can really confine those that sound posh to the posh crowd. So while that may sound not so bad on the face of it I always see it as them being out of sync with the majority of British society and not well taken too when they come into contact with the majority of us. Now not all private school kids have that but a lot of them do.

More hogwash.
Trench, my kids go to private school.
I’d hazard a guess that you have a chip on your shoulder against any kind of perceived privilege that you could never afford.

[Manny]

I'm not really one in favour of private schools. In the UK private schools can run the risk of cutting kids if from the rest of society. At worst it can make them not very street wise and the other main negative is that it can give them a posh accent. Now maybe some US guys & girls might dig that but in the UK it can really confine those that sound posh to the posh crowd. So while that may sound not so bad on the face of it I always see it as them being out of sync with the majority of British society and not well taken too when they come into contact with the majority of us. Now not all private school kids have that but a lot of them do.

Complete tosh.

Private schools attract the brightest kids from the most productive members of society.

You have simply identified yourself as either a Labour voter, a member of the underclass, or both.

More hogwash.
Trench, my kids go to private school.
I’d hazard a guess that you have a chip on your shoulder against any kind of perceived privilege that you could never afford.

This. The left think like that. Sad that they never aspire beyond state schools and two up two down houses in rag arse areas.

[2tallbill]

Sad that they never aspire beyond state schools and two up two down houses in rag arse areas.

What is two up two down houses?

I agree with the rest of your post

[Trenchcoat]

Complete tosh.

Private schools attract the brightest kids from the most productive members of society.

You have simply identified yourself as either a Labour voter, a member of the underclass, or both.

This. The left think like that. Sad that they never aspire beyond state schools and two up two down houses in rag arse areas.

Another feature of private schools is that the kids are there because their parents have paid for them to be their. There is no academic qualification to entry like Grammar Schools merely how much money you have in your wallet. Therefore it cannot be qualified whether or how intelligent the intake are. In general the view has been formed that as they are paying their way in they lack the academic ability to pass exams for Grammar School. That and favours are done to make it easier for them to achieve academically by going the private school route as opposed to state comprehensive schools (or their modern day equivalent).

[John Gaunt]

You have simply identified yourself as either a Labour voter,

It’s noticeable though that many members of the labour hierarchy choose to send their kids to private schools.
How many of the labour front benches are privately educated?

Of course they don’t want that for the rank and file, oh no, for them it’s the local comprehensive teaching labour ‘values’ that must suffice.

[Manny]

What is two up two down houses?

A very small house, joined to others each side, with typically 4 rooms total.

Another feature of private schools is that the kids are there because their parents have paid for them to be their. There is no academic qualification to entry like Grammar Schools merely how much money you have in your wallet. Therefore it cannot be qualified whether or how intelligent the intake are. In general the view has been formed that as they are paying their way in they lack the academic ability to pass exams for Grammar School. That and favours are done to make it easier for them to achieve academically by going the private school route as opposed to state comprehensive schools (or their modern day equivalent).

Wrong again. My daughter is going to a private grammar this year. In order to be able to do so she passed the 11 plus exam. Private grammars are selective.

But here’s a thing: in order to be able to pay for any private school, you need money. To get that money you’d usually need to be quite smart. Thus it’s likely your kids will be quite smart too. Giving smart kids a better chance at life via a better education elevates them above the riffraff.

[msmob]

Wrong again. My daughter is going to a private grammar this year. In order to be able to do so she passed the 11 plus exam. Private grammars are selective.

and WHERE did she attend school before ( Private or state school ) bearing in mind your 'lecture' to Trench ?

But here’s a thing: in order to be able to pay for any private school, you need money. To get that money you’d usually need to be quite smart. Thus it’s likely your kids will be quite smart too. Giving smart kids a better chance at life via a better education elevates them above the riffraff.

Hmm, your  ( truthful) answer to my question will make the above paragraph 'interesting' ..

WHY do you always fail re ASSuming everyone who doesn't agree with you must be a 'socialist'?

Trench, did YOU vote Labour last time ?

[John Gaunt]

Another feature of private schools is that the kids are there because their parents have paid for them to be their.

Duh. Of course parents pay. It’s selective education. It’s because they want the best opportunities for their children. You won’t get that down your local comprehensive.

There is no academic qualification to entry like Grammar Schools merely how much money you have in your wallet. Therefore it cannot be qualified whether or how intelligent the intake are. In general the view has been formed that as they are paying their way in they lack the academic ability to pass exams for Grammar School.

Wrong.
Selective schools want the best students. They have entrance tests and take the cream of the crop. Most are high achievers and go on to red brick and top universities around the world which are highly competitive.

That and favours are done to make it easier for them to achieve academically by going the private school route as opposed to state comprehensive schools (or their modern day equivalent).

More sour grapes from you.
Ask yourself why half of China wants to send their only child to a British private school? It’s because they understand and appreciate the value a selective education gives in a competitive world.

You’re just a cheapskate wanting something for nothing then moaning about the ability of wealthier people to buy the best that they can afford for their children.
If your (imaginary) child was offered a free place at a private school you’d jump at the chance, no doubt.

[Trenchcoat]

It’s noticeable though that many members of the labour hierarchy choose to send their kids to private schools.
How many of the labour front benches are privately educated?

Of course they don’t want that for the rank and file, oh no, for them it’s the local comprehensive teaching labour ‘values’ that must suffice.

It's because they know you get no favours done for you in a comprehensive school, if they are rich and influential enough they may get a few bit that pails in comparison to the favours private schools do for their children.

I've seen private school kids when I was at uni. They got top marks for doing mediocre work, something dodgy was going on for sure, other students were aware that their work was pretty mediocre. Never quite found out why, a back hander to the uni and or lecturer(s) maybe, work marked easier as a result of being an ex-private school kid, who knows. There was definitely something suspect going on though.

[msmob]

Selective schools want the best students. They have entrance tests and take the cream of the crop.

What do you mean by selective ?

In Manny's daughter's case she passed the 11 plus on her on merit .  Unless she's won a scholarship... Manny will pay ... they need money ..and especially now..

Many private schools are being less selective..and accepting a higher proportion of foreign students to balance the books .

[Manny]

Some words

I’ll not be engaging with you here.

[msmob]

I’ll not be engaging with you here.

Of course..

I understand .. answering awkward questions is something you can't bury here..

[Manny]

Another feature of private schools is that the kids are there because their parents have paid for them to be their.

Another feature of private schools is their pupils are likely to know the difference between their, there and they’re at an early age. This makes one less likely to look a twerp when attempting to communicate in later life.

[Trenchcoat]

Duh. Of course parents pay. It’s selective education. It’s because they want the best opportunities for their children. You won’t get that down your local comprehensive.
Wrong.
Selective schools want the best students. They have entrance tests and take the cream of the crop. Most are high achievers and go on to red brick and top universities around the world which are highly competitive. More sour grapes from you.
Ask yourself why half of China wants to send their only child to a British private school? It’s because they understand and appreciate the value a selective education gives in a competitive world.

You’re just a cheapskate wanting something for nothing then moaning about the ability of wealthier people to buy the best that they can afford for their children.
If your (imaginary) child was offered a free place at a private school you’d jump at the chance, no doubt.

The entrance exam is them being able to write their name at the top of the paper, lol. From there the private school can deduce how wealthy and influential their family are as to whether their child gets in.

Winston Churchill used to do just that leaving the rest of his exam paper blank, passed the exam with flying colours!

[msmob]

Another feature of private schools is their pupils are likely to know the difference between their, there and they’re at an early age. This makes one less likely to look a twerp when attempting to communicate in later life.

Now you're suggesting you went to private school ?

[krimster2]

as someone who raised two children living with them while they attended school in Ukraine/Russia/USA

I would rate USA schools as MUCH less than Ukraine/Russia
USA education has dropped dramatically due to problems with student behavior in class
the current zoom video approach is a joke!

no school will be adequate for educating your children, but some will be better than others!
YOU have to be involved in educating your children!
the first thing you teach your kids when they’re little is to LOVE books and reading!

when they were 5-6 I’d read with my children every day
then when they were 9-10 I started to give them science books with lots of illustrations
and chemistry sets and electronic kits

Before Corona, I had one daughter enrolled in Rice Univ Math Dept and the other in the Ric BioTechnology program and was planning on Medical School
but about 1/3 of their classmates have now dropped out...
now including them....
sigh...

so until we all go to Russia, they ride shotgun with me in the armor plated Acura!

[2tallbill]

Many private schools are being less selective..and accepting
a higher proportion of foreign students to balance the books .

Do you and I have different views on what is selective?

In my view being selective is most likely based on test scores.
If a foreigner has higher scores than his peers then he/she will
be selected over the lower scoring local child. Or are you suggesting
that the private schools are catering to rich foreigners selecting them
over brighter local children to improve their finances? Do they charge
foreign students more? By what method are the books balanced?

Please explain your view.

[ML]

Public universities in USA love foreign students.  They pay full out-of-state tuition.

In-state students pay about half that rate, and many pay nothing as there are generous state programs to pay all tuition for even B grade in-state students.

Even out-of-state (USA) students often pay in-state rates based on reciprocal agreements between neighboring states.

This is why many (most) state universities are going to be hurting this fall because foreign student attendance is projected to be down 15-45%.

[ML]

Lily has a point regarding higher end schools (students) and lower end schools (students).

Many other nations don't have such extremes as USA because their population is more homogeneous.

And, even where the population is not homogeneous, the students of the nation face nation wide similar course programs.

In USA, states and even school districts within a state have very different programs and standards.

I will still match top USA students against top from anywhere in the world.
But not match foreign incoming students against average of all USA students, because the cream of the crop (mostly) are coming in.
The misleading examples and even statistics that are bandied about are due to this mis-match.

For instance:  Some years back cousin of mine living in D.C. area mentioned how at H.S. graduation for his daughter . . . most all of the awards went to foreign born students or students of foreign born parents.
Well duh !!  Only shows that incoming are mostly cream of the crop, at least in these high income/high cost of living areas.
Another factor is that foreign born parents carry with them tradition of striving for excellence in school.  This tradition is far from universal with USA born families, and virtually non-existent in some ethnic groups.

[John Gaunt]

What do you mean by selective ?

Are you being deliberately obtuse or just argumentative as that’s your default posture?

Many private schools are being less selective..and accepting a higher proportion of foreign students to balance the books .

Are you claiming a first hand knowledge of private schools admission criteria? Or will you claim to have a ‘fwend’ who is advising you of the latest trends in admissions into UK private schools, no doubt laughing at our ‘fails’ while doing so?

An increase in foreign student admissions doesn’t imply a less selective admission process.
Only the ForumFool would claim otherwise.

[Trenchcoat]

as someone who raised two children living with them while they attended school in Ukraine/Russia/USA

I would rate USA schools as MUCH less than Ukraine/Russia
USA education has dropped dramatically due to problems with student behavior in class
the current zoom video approach is a joke!

no school will be adequate for educating your children, but some will be better than others!
YOU have to be involved in educating your children!
the first thing you teach your kids when they’re little is to LOVE books and reading!

when they were 5-6 I’d read with my children every day
then when they were 9-10 I started to give them science books with lots of illustrations
and chemistry sets and electronic kits

Before Corona, I had one daughter enrolled in Rice Univ Math Dept and the other in the Ric BioTechnology program and was planning on Medical School
but about 1/3 of their classmates have now dropped out...
now including them....
sigh...

so until we all go to Russia, they ride shotgun with me in the armor plated Acura!

I think having a number of years growing up in the FSU would be great before coming to the US and having a big change of scene.

I used to have chemistry sets when younger, they could be good fun and a bit of a laugh, I never really used them seriously though. I think children doing some reading early on at home is important. I'm not sure about the 'love books' socialisation though, I would fear that it could make a child too nerdy. I think I would want to be careful not to end up with bookworms that don't socialize well. I don't think I would like a child to be too one sided either by being too nerdy or at the other end too airheaded. I would fear that STEM subjects might tend to increasingly drive a child and later adult to the too nerdy end, that they would end up spending all their time on their subject and miss out on life and being more spontaneous.

[msmob]

Are you being deliberately obtuse or just argumentative as that’s your default posture?

So, no explanation ..

Are you claiming a first hand knowledge of private schools admission criteria? Or will you claim to have a ‘fwend’ who is advising you of the latest trends in admissions into UK private schools, no doubt laughing at our ‘fails’ while doing so?

'Sorry' ex-wifey and I had an agency biz helping Russian speaking parent find places in UK schools ...and finding Guardians ( look it up) for boarders with non resident parents

We had some enquiries and I kicked verybestschools.com back into life earlier this evening

An increase in foreign student admissions doesn’t imply a less selective admission process.
Only the ForumFool would claim otherwise.

The 'forum fool' clearly knows more about this than you ..and is putting his money were his big gob is ..

By the way, I own the domain every1fo.com .. and my fav email address is ds.or.johngaunt.is.busted.again@every1fo.com

Swerve on;)

[Manny]

The entrance exam is them being able to write their name at the top of the paper, lol. From there the private school can deduce how wealthy and influential their family are as to whether their child gets in.

Winston Churchill used to do just that leaving the rest of his exam paper blank, passed the exam with flying colours!

These are silly words from somebody with no personal experience about somebody who died long ago.

Back to reality 2020.....

My daughter recently did two 11 plus exams, for two different grammar schools. One invited her immediately; one invited her two weeks later (after others who scored higher expressed a preference for elsewhere probably). So she had two offers from two very good schools.

It costs something around fifteen grand £ Sterling a year. More when you add in piano lessons, trips and other stuff.

The “Trenchcoat” blokes comments about “posh” accents caused by private schools being some kind of disadvantage only works if your life goals are flipping burgers in McDonald’s or some similar godawful place. His comments are Liberal and leftist and tells us he’s not too bright, and somewhat poor. I’m assuming he’s not yet married and has no wife or kids from which one might draw informed opinion from.

I’m debating a keyboard warrior who’s never been to the FSU and achieved anything meaningful I suspect? The usual Ukraine-centric greedy bloke? Went to Kiev or Odessa once or twice on a budget airline perhaps, spent some money and was “unlucky” when reality hit perchance?

I don’t know the bloke from Adam, unless he has another name at RUA. But he apparently has 5000 posts here, so he should be a relative font of wisdom, yes? I’m not getting that.

[Trenchcoat]

These are silly words from somebody with no personal experience about somebody who died long ago.

Back to reality 2020.....

My daughter recently did two 11 plus exams, for two different grammar schools. One invited her immediately; one invited her two weeks later (after others who scored higher expressed a preference for elsewhere probably). So she had two offers from two very good schools.

It costs something around fifteen grand £ Sterling a year. More when you add in piano lessons, trips and other stuff.

The “Trenchcoat” blokes comments about “posh” accents caused by private schools being some kind of disadvantage only works if your life goals are flipping burgers in McDonald’s or some similar godawful place. His comments are Liberal and leftist and tells us he’s not too bright, and somewhat poor. I’m assuming he’s not yet married and has no wife or kids from which one might draw informed opinion from.

I’m debating a keyboard warrior who’s never been to the FSU and achieved anything meaningful I suspect? The usual Ukraine-centric greedy bloke? Went to Kiev or Odessa once or twice on a budget airline perhaps, spent some money and was “unlucky” when reality hit perchance?

I don’t know the bloke from Adam, unless he has another name at RUA. But he apparently has 5000 posts here, so he should be a relative font of wisdom, yes? I’m not getting that.

Grammar schools are free Manny as they are paid for by the state. Not too bright are we

If you are talking £15k per child for a private school then you have more money than sense.

It's not about flipping burgers at McDonald's, if the child is only ever expected to interact with similar posh people then fine, but if the child ever steps out into the real world and comes into contact with the majority of the population that don't speak posh then they are not likely to be well received.

In fact they would probably take the p*ss out of anyone with a posh accent. Some behind their back others far more vocal.

[msmob]

Manny

Trench HAS been to the  FSU - several times (  not that he's learnt much !)

Manny mentions £15k plus fees ... that intrigued me, given I lived in North Cheshire and went to a Grammar School, there and really do know about fee paying education.


Manchester Grammar is fee paying .. it's really a 'public' school', which in Britain means ... independent / private, now !

http://www.mgs.org/209/fees-and-assistance#:~:text=Fees%20for%20the%20year%202019,or%20%C2%A34%2C310%20per%20term.

Fees for the year 2019/20 are £12,930 per year, or £4,310 per term.

Cheadle Hulme School

http://www.cheadlehulmeschool.co.uk/admissions/fees-charges

Senior and Sixth Form tuition £12,324 per year

Bolton School - also c.£12k / year
http://www.boltonschool.org/how-to-join-us/fees/fees/

OK, he added 15 percent, but hey , that's Manny - he does like to exaggerate !

As Trench says, in Manchester REAL Grammar Schools are FREE, but places are awarded on merit e,g,Altrincham Grammar School for Girls, Sale Grammar School, Stretford Grammar School and Urmston Grammar School

Back on topic, my 'ex' step-son is a product of FSU education.. he finished there and aged 17, came to Cyprus, then the UK ,,he had to do a UK sixth form ( again) to qualify for university in Oxford and found UK kids somewhat lazy and uneducated in his experience !

There is much merit in what Lilly posted