A Day at Independence Square - Maidan

[calmissile]

A day at Independence Square - Maiden

After being couped up in the apartment, I told my wife I wanted to get out of the house and go somewhere...anywhere.  Since she already knew I wanted to view the revolution activities, she surprisingly agreed that we would go to Maiden today.  The only concession was that we would take a taxi since there is no parking anywhere near center.  No problem, taxi called.

With the temperatures hovering near freezing and the snow beginning to melt, we bundled up in our warm clothes and off we went.  While in the taxi, I noticed that one boot was a little loose and decided to tighten the Velcro strap.  WTH?  What happened to the straps?  Am I loosing my mind?  Turns out I put stepson Vlad's boots on which are nearly identical.  They just don't have a Velcro strap, only the zipper on the other side.  Oh well, I learned that we wear the same size shoes.

We had a great time walking and mingling with the locals including the protesters.  The scenario appears to be a little different than I see portrayed in the media.  Nearly everyone is a protester, it's just that some are organized and carrying flags as they march and the population in general seem to also carry flags and Ukraine symbols.  Out of hundreds of thousands of participants, it seemed like everyone had a Ukraine symbol of some type.  The mood was very upbeat.  There was a concert and political speakers on a large stage and also had the video displayed on a large building next to the stage.   The public at large was responding to the speakers and chanting was being done by nearly  everyone in the crowds.  The Ukraine national anthem was sung several times and the crowd showed the same respect (if not more so) than I would expect in the USA.

From my observation, it would appear to me that this is truly a grass roots revolution.  I had to laugh as I remembered one of our members making some ridiculous statement that it was just some paid potesters to cause trouble.  LOL.
I sort of doubt it.  A few hundred thousand paid protesters?

Larissa wanted to show me where the statue of Lenin was that was toppled.  I wanted to see it also, as I think it was right below my apartment window on one of my previous visits.  Sure enough, she led me to the spot and even remembered which apartment window I stayed at.  At the base of the apartment there stands the empty pedestal that held Lenin.  It has turned into a big photo-op location.  Hundreds of people were standing around with cameras taking photos with the subjects standing in front of the empty pedestal (including us).  All of the stores were open and the underground ones seemed to be business as usual.

Walking down the sidewalk amongst all the natives we were surprised when someone jumped out in front of us.  Guess who?  Val, my resident Kiev apartment provider recognized us among the crowd and surprised us.  Larissa was astonished saying something to the effect of being thousands of miles from home and intermingled among thousands in a crowd and someone recognized us.   At any rate, Val had not seen us since we got married, so we had the expected hugs and congratulations.  Val's first question was "How do you like our revolution?"  He then went on to make a joke by asking "Do you know why Lenin fell over so easily?"  "It took only one knockout punch from Klitschko"   LOL.  It was nice to see Val again after so many times he found me apartments, had his daughter personally deliver flowers to Larissa, take me to the train station and buy the tickets, etc.

With all the political signs and speeches over the loudspeakers, I asked Larissa what exactly do the signs say and the speeches advocate.  Her response was that the people want the president and parliament to resign.  It seemed to me that everyone seemed to be in support of the same objective based on everyone responding with the same chants and applause.  The crowds were singing the same songs as the performers on the stage.  I think I have personally witnessed what is often termed as solidarity.

Time to find a taxi home.  This turned into a small problem.  It cost 35 grivna to get there from our apartment.  Larissa approached a couple of cabs at Maiden and they wanted 200+ grivna to get us home.  After she growled and slammed a couple of cab doors I got the message that she was not happy with the ripoff.  Finally she found one for 100 grivna and knowing that I needed to find a restroom, she selected it.

Sitting here in the bedroom writing this I just got an urgent call to the living room  MIL and Larissa are rolling on the floor laughing.  As I understand it, the Prime Minister was giving a speech and trying to speak Ukrainian rather than Russian.  I guess he butchered the language so bad that they couldn't sit still.  LOL

Not sure how long we will be here before returning to the US, but if anything exciting happens I will try and make a post or two.  I really don't understand enough about the economics of the EU or the CU to make any intelligent judgements one way or the other.  One thing is clear however, this is not a phony political movement.  It is grass roots based.  All ages are participating and there are no more students and young people than there are older people.

I am posting some of the photos we took of a fun day and my first presence at a revolution.  LOL

[calmissile]

Slumba, in answer to your earlier question.......

[mendeleyev]

Doug, nice write up and photos! Thank you for sharing.

[TS]

Nice photos but you know that Maiden square area is not big enough to hold hundred of thousands of protestors unless you go for miles down the street. 
The protests in 2004, 2005, and 2008 were so packed it went for more than 5 miles by 3 miles thick.  Seems this protest is not as big.  You could not get a taxi within 3 miles of the area in those big protests.  Seems on your report you drove right up with taxi with ease and jumped right out near the square and got a taxi with ease to go home. 
In 2004, 2005, and 2008 the people were angry.  When you see protestors organized and calm, they tend to be paid in Ukraine.  There is probably tens of thousands of people who care there and not paid but when you have population over 44 million that is nothing. 
The people who destroyed Lenin statute were the passionate protestors but seems they have left or don't care anymore. 
Klitchko and his partners are making a killing because they own most of the businesses around maiden.  Their multiple restaurants and bars and clothing stores doing very well. 
Would like to see the protests spread around the country like they did in 2004, 2005, and 2008. 

[mendeleyev]

I covered several of the paid protests in the previous Russian election. The Putin campaign chartered buses from distant regions, paid them a daily wage, and set up mobile kitchens with hot drinks and food. I had to laugh because there was "bling" or whatever free gifts at conventions are described today. Folks got cloth bags, keychains, and Moscow souvenirs just for getting on a bus and hanging out while holding signs for a day.

Of course the alternative was to refuse and deal with the consequences from a factory boss later on.

This has no earmarks of the typical mass paid protest from what I can see.

The other thing that is noticeable is the age factor--so many of these protesters are well into middle age and above. Those are the folk who refuse to get on a bus and when the most they could expect was small pay and a keychain for standing out in the cold.

A good friend who covered the Orange Revolution with me is now an American expat in Kyiv and describes it this way: In the Orange revolution the kids camped out and the old folks brought them food and blankets. This time it is not unusual for the old person to be camped alongside the younger and the ones bringing them a blanket and hot soup are their children.

[TS]

 
Today yahoo had a story on McCain visit which they said tens of thousands gathered in the square (many young and old in the photos) - I think people do not realize the EU current deal is horrible for Ukraine but beneficial for the opposition politcial party elite select few:
Minutes before the rally, EU enlargement chief Stefan Fuele said on Twitter he had told Ukraine he was suspending work on a trade and political deal, which should have been signed two weeks ago, saying Kiev's arguments to improve terms had "no grounds in reality".
Fuele's words suggested the European Union has lost patience with Kiev's demands for financial aid and was irritated at the way the bloc was being forced to take part in a 'bidding war' with Russia over Ukraine.
Right now the deals from Russia and EU are not good.  But the EU keeps turning their nose up on Ukraine and giving the take it or leave it position.  Russia has been making their deal more and more attractive.  Ukraine signs the current EU deal the country is doomed and family members of the top opposition party get richer. 
McCain was asked what the differences was between the EU and Russia propsoal and he did not know.  Glad USA tax payers paid probably more than several million for him and security to fly overseas and not know any details .
 

[jone]

TS - and the rest of the Forum -

We can debate issues from the Opposition perspective, from the Russian perspective, from Ukrainian perspective, from the Government perspective.

The EU trade agreement is not what people are gravitating to.  They are opposed to the corruption in the government and by the Oligarchs.  On the short term, cash infusions by Russia and China may help Ukraine more than a stinky trade agreement with the EU.

I have read most of the context of that agreement.  It doesn't lay trade terms out on a silver platter.  It requires trade partners in Ukraine to begin dealing honestly in their trade agreements. 

It took Poland almost ten years to acquiesce to the terms of European Union participation before the base type of trade started to change.  After all, the only model that they had for operation was the old Soviet Model.  That model includes a thirty percent surcharge for graft, bribes and corruption.

Should Ukraine sign the Agreement, they will be signing on to a way of doing business that will take years to implement.  Whether the country has the wherewithal to sustain the transition period is debatable.  What is not debatable is the base desire of the citizenry to deliver themselves from the corrupt governmental and business models they currently have to endure.

I do business in Russia.  Some Oblasts are better than others.  But the enigmatic attitude of the government towards stemming corruption does not seem to be ending.  My experience in exchanging views with both Russian Nationals and Ukrainian Nationals living in Ukraine is that they want this corruption to end. 

[TS]

Jone,
Here in the USA, companies I worked in the past will pay millions of $'s to lobbyists in DC area who in return do what it takes to get politicans in their pocket.  This allows large companies whether USA based or foreign to get what they need.  For example a company I worked for paid a large amount to allow us to dump steel tube in the USA well below market price so we could buy local suppliers on the cheap.  After acquisitions, we went back to market prices. 
In Ukraine the politicans tend to be also the large business owners.  They don't need lobbyists. 
In both Ukraine and USA business is very corrupt.  At least in Ukraine they don't really deny being corrupt.  In the USA were corruption is the worst in the World we act like we don't have it.
Why does the USA have more lawyers and lobbyists then all the EU? 

[jone]

TS-

I cry bullshit.

You have no idea how the US works when compared to business in the FSU.  I can tell you're not a businessman. 

You think that the art of lobbying is expensive.  My companies spent zero on lobbying last year.  You think attorneys control transactions?  My attorneys are involved in about one percent of our transactions. 

Do I contribute to politicians?  Absolutely.  If they believe what I believe, I am happy to contribute.  But I am not forced to.  And I don't buy their votes. 

You need to get a civics lesson.  Unfortunately, I'm not the one to give it to you, because your attitudes just don't cut it.

You want to blast the US, go find another forum.  I would venture that perhaps 90 percent of the guys on here are self made and have done it within their own fields of expertise and with their own two hands.

Time to go do something important, like washing my car or clipping my toenails.

[lordtiberius]

Doug, nice write up and photos! Thank you for sharing.

Agreed!  bravo amigo

[Muzh]

TS-

I cry bullshit.

Finally, someone got it right.

[TS]

Jone, what company do you work for now.  I would like to visit and learn form you.
 

[TS]

For those interested about lobbyists and corruption: http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/22/corruption-lobbying-bribes-biz-corruption09-cx_mm_0122maiello.html
From forbes.  I can post thousand other journals if needed.

Former Secretary of Labor Robert Reich, now a professor at the University of California at Berkeley, doesn’t make a distinction between the two activities. When asked by e-mail, “What’s the real difference between me bribing a customs agent so that I can bring a banned substance into the country or me contributing money to a senator and then cajoling him into making the substance legal for import?” Reich answered, “Frankly, I don’t see much difference. A bribe is a bribe. People authorized only to act in the public interest may not use their office for private gain. Period.”

The only way to remove lobbyists and their corruptive influence is for companies and interest groups to voluntarily disarm and work on building a public consensus in support of their causes or to elect and appoint people who are entirely incorruptible. Obviously these will never happen. But perhaps those living in rich, Westernized nations should be grateful that political corruption occurs in the twilight world of lobbyists, where they can at least catch a glimpse of the action, rather than the midnight black deals struck daily in the poorer sections of the world.

When Obama first entered politics, he took money from lobbyists. He gradually changed his mind and when he ran in both the primary and general elections in 2008 he said he wouldn’t take money from lobbyists. But he meant only federally registered lobbyists. He had certainly taken money from interest groups that operated at the state level and he had taken money from people who lobbied for only one company, trade or interest group (such people are, in the Byzantine regulatory world of registered lobbyists, not technically lobbyists).
 
 
 

[pokerintherear]

I would like to read TS's opinion if he was an actual Ukrainian citizen instead of a coddled liberal American.

[Boethius]

TS is American, but he is not a liberal.

[lordtiberius]

I would like to read TS's opinion if he was an actual Ukrainian citizen instead of a coddled liberal American.

In other news, the de facto head of the Senate GOP and Senator Chris Murphy gave an exclusive interview to Christopher Miller.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/us-senators-mccain-and-murphy-discuss-ukraines-future-with-kyiv-post-333778.html