The Russian Invasion of Ukraine-The Real Nazis

[jone]

And do not forget the 100% right wing of the USA.

Oh, you will be burned in hell when Muzh gets a hold of that quote!

[jone]

I do not deny some Russians were in Crimea, but they were not sent by the Russian government.

You sure about that?

"Russian President Vladimir Putin has acknowledged that Russian troops were present in Crimea before the referendum and argued that was necessary to let Crimeans make the choice on the future of the region."

http://rt.com/news/crimea-defense-russian-soldiers-108/

[Shadow]

In America we have 48% initially against the current government.  We call them Republicans.  (As Obama goes on, that figure grows increasingly higher.)

Thanks for your take Shadow.  I could see those numbers being true.  Although I think there are some very disillusioned separatists right now.  How do you see the end playing out?

As for the Russians taking over the area, I think it would have evolved into a very bloody conflict, with casualties in the tens of thousands, not the hundreds (approaching 1000) where we are now.

At this time it seems the separatists are giving up. Last weekend that is what the leaders in Donetsk wer indication, already before losing the Slovyansk area. They are aware that becoming independent is impossible and that Russia is not going to invade Ukraine unless there  is a mass slaughter.
Probably by this weekend a decision will be made, as with the World Cup finishing the focus will shift back to world affairs next week.
If they would have truly wanted to separate, they should have taken control of the area better, like simply blowing up bridges over the Volga and Dnepr, really removing all Ukrainian military from their area and preparing for a long term war. They did not manage due to lack of support or trust in promises from others.
It could easily have become something like we see in Syria, and I think we should all feel lucky that it did not.

[Shadow]

You sure about that?

"Russian President Vladimir Putin has acknowledged that Russian troops were present in Crimea before the referendum and argued that was necessary to let Crimeans make the choice on the future of the region."

http://rt.com/news/crimea-defense-russian-soldiers-108/

I have asked a transcipt of the interview as his exact words may have been slightly different.
We all know that the 22.000 allowed troops were present, and clearly the unmarked Crimea defense troops got some support. As for his statement, I have read different versions. One where he is said to admit the unmarked troops were Russian, one where he is said to say that Russian troops supported them. A small difference, and probably in the big picture unimportant.

But the statement was a reply on Boethius telling that the Pravi Sektor supporters were not sent by the Ukrainian government, and should be seen in that context.

[Shadow]

Oh, you will be burned in hell when Muzh gets a hold of that quote!

I am aware that within America there is a distinct left and right.
When you look at it from the international spectrum the American left is still on the right-wing side.

However the whole political spectrum is getting messed up a bit, because in some ways America took the old ways of the Soviet Union. Things like allegiance to the flag and regarding any critic as enemy of the state are more communist as liberal, unless to go to extreme liberalism.
But I do not wish or dare to use the political name of extreme liberalism in relation to America, as I would be immediately declared a hater and mortal enemy for good

[jone]

Haha.  I was reading some of John Kennedy's speeches recently.  He was to the right of all but the most extreme conservatives in the current Congress.  The body politic has moved to the left over the years.  Not so far as Europe.

We tend to think in terms of social legislation and fiscal policy when it comes to determining where someone stands with relationship to left or right.  Someone might be fiscally conservative and socially liberal, or just the opposite.  (Although everyone tends to believe that they are fiscally conservative, even when not.)

There is a true difference in people who love America, yet are critical of our policies or government.  Those people, regardless of where they are from, are not too hard to listen to.

[Shadow]

There is a true difference in people who love America, yet are critical of our policies or government.  Those people, regardless of where they are from, are not too hard to listen to.

Perhaps it comes over different in writing, but I have always enjoyed my visits to America and real life meetings with Americans. As mentioned I would not mind living in America and New York made me feel very at home.
That is may show different is partially because I never mince my words, in that way I fit in to the Russian culture.
It is not only Americans that have trouble with this, the culture in Holland is also more and more going towards the need to pack criticism in soft terms.
I am still trying to change that and make people say what they really think instead of what they believe they must tell to bring the point across softly. It is an uphill struggle, but who knows it may catch on.

[GQBlues]

...I am still trying to change that and make people say what they really think instead of what they believe they must tell to bring the point across softly. It is an uphill struggle, but who knows it may catch on.

 

[Faux Pas]

I am aware that within America there is a distinct left and right.
When you look at it from the international spectrum the American left is still on the right-wing side.

However the whole political spectrum is getting messed up a bit, because in some ways America took the old ways of the Soviet Union. Things like allegiance to the flag and regarding any critic as enemy of the state are more communist as liberal, unless to go to extreme liberalism.
But I do not wish or dare to use the political name of extreme liberalism in relation to America, as I would be immediately declared a hater and mortal enemy for good

Politics like religion is the opiate of the masses. Another method of divide and conquer

[Boethius]

Any fool knows that Russia’s intelligence forces control the Russian border. Tanks and missile launchers cannot enter Ukraine without Putin’s permission.

Evidently, Mr. Gregory has never read this, or the other, forum.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/07/11/putins-failing-ukraine-scorecard/

[Chelseaboy]

I'm sure the anti-west Putinist fanboys/girls on both forums will squirm and voice their displeasure at such a blatant piece of anti-Putin propaganda against their hero.

In their case unfailing ignorance is bliss. 

[fathertime]

I'm sure the anti-west Putinist fanboys/girls on both forums will squirm and voice their displeasure at such a blatant piece of anti-Putin propaganda against their hero.

In their case unfailing ignorance is bliss. 

Your comments are idiotic and add nothing important to the discussion.    The man who wrote the article and woman who posted it here have every right to voice their opinions.  These opinions can be challenged if somebody disagrees with certain assertions, and chooses to do so…  YOU on the other hand prefer to stick to labels/names, which show your depth, or lack thereof as evidenced by your latest post.


Here is a link to the author of the article, he has posted dozens and many of the earlier articles have not gone down the way he seemed to believe they would.   I have read most of his pieces, and find that he omits important points...but he is allowed to do that as he never said he was going to attempt to make an equal representation.

http://paulgregorysblog.blogspot.com/

Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

The popular Donetsk online publication Ostrov released data from its own survey, according to which a majority of respondents (representative of Ostrov users) wish to remain in Ukraine and only a tiny minority support the separatists.  According to the survey, 75%  of  respondents see their future with Ukraine, 15% would like to live in the West, 4% are ready to move to Russia, and only 3% see their future with the self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic or the Luhansk People’s Republic.

The important point is that more than 7500 users of the online publication have taken part in the survey, a much larger number than the usual selection in representative nationwide public opinion surveys.

Commenting on the results, political scientist Kost Bondarenko, director of the Ukrainian Politics Foundation, noted that "results of these kinds of public opinion polls capture a very important population — people who are intelligent, thoughtful, and who are trying to keep up with the times."

According to Bondarenko, "these are people who influence public opinion significantly and set the tone of public life. It is significant that this part of society is categorically opposed to separatism, viewing it a risk and a dead-end for regional development." he says. 


"The 75% figure of those who see their future with Ukraine is more than significant, as is the 3% supporting separatism. This demonstrates that separatism, as a political phenomenon, has fallen below the conventional threshold. Separatists, despite all attempts to increase their military-technical presence in the region, have failed to achieve the most essential thing — they have not been able to win over people who influence opinions and set the development strategy for the region," Bondarenko said.

However, Bondarenko thinks that people may question the representative nature of this kind of survey.  "At a time when it is virtually impossible (because of the fighting and instability of the situation) to conduct a series of sociological field surveys in Donbas, similar internet-based surveys do not provide absolute results, but they indicate the dynamics," he explains. "With a 75% result, it is meaningless to argue about the degree of survey error — we are dealing with trends and attitudes. The fact that a significant majority of the population lives in urban areas suggests a high level of internet access and, therefore, a high degree of reliability of such surveys. To speak about real and undeniable attitudes will be possible only after Donbas returns to normal life and the population is able to participate in elections." the analyst concluded.

http://www.unian.ua/politics/938809-opituvannya-riven-pidtrimki-separatizmu-na-donbasi-padae.html

[Chelseaboy]

Touch a nerve there did i fathertime ?

Your comments on this forum are insulting on a regular basis to other posters,as well as to Ukrainian people in general with your ludicrous win/win claims.

[fathertime]

I'm sure the anti-west Putinist fanboys/girls on both forums will squirm and voice their displeasure at such a blatant piece of anti-Putin propaganda against their hero.

In their case unfailing ignorance is bliss. 

Touch a nerve there did i fathertime ?

Your comments on this forum are insulting on a regular basis to other posters,as well as to Ukrainian people in general with your ludicrous win/win claims.

Once again if you make childish comments you shouldn't be surprised if somebody responds to them...and directly calls you out for making them.


Regarding the win/win...although both countries may wind up gaining something good when the crisis ends...there is no important reason for me to repeat that statement if it is going to annoy other posters...I've already stated the case, and in the future we will see what comes to pass.


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

Thousands have died, and millions have had their lives disrupted because of this "win win" provocation by Russia.  I agree with Chelseaboy, your posts are an insult to Ukrainians.

Here is the testimony before the European subcommittee of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee by Edward Lucas.  Mr. Lucas is a well known British journalist, with an expertise on Eastern Europe and Russia.  I am posting a few excerpts -

Russia begrudges the former captive nations of the Soviet empire their freedom, their prosperity, and particularly their independence. It maintains an old-fashioned idea of “legitimate interests” and “spheres of influence” in which the future geopolitical orientation of countries such as Ukraine and Georgia is not a matter of sovereign choice for the peoples of those nations, but a question in which Russia has, by right, a veto. . .

Russia is winning. Too much attention is paid to the ebb and flow of events in Ukraine. The big picture is bleak: Russia has successfully challenged the European security order. It has seized another country’s territory, fomented insurrection, and engaged in repeated acts of military saber-rattling, subversion and economic coercion. The response from the West has been weak and disunited. The United States is distracted by multiple urgent problems elsewhere. You rightly wonder why you should be bearing the cost of increasing European security. For their part many European countries have no appetite for confrontation with Russia.

http://www.foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Lucas_Testimony1.pdf

[GQBlues]

There are 3 pressing issues Ukraine is faced with that they need to attend to if they are to rise from the heep due to over 20 years of rife and poverty...

Curb corruption, solving their mortality rate and understanding their export viability (Russia v Europe).

1. How can the new (reformed?) government allow Tymoshenko to roam the country on a vengeful mode seeking those responsible for her incarceration when most believe she's guilty of corruption as charged to begin with? At the present time, Oligarch are much too busy positioning themselves from within Ukraine's autocracy and politics.

2. It's difficult to believe a country with a negative mortality rate can be a 'progressive' entity.

3. Most of Ukraine's tradeable commodities and resource are better fit for Russia's consumption than it is for Europe.

[fathertime]

Thousands have died, and millions have had their lives disrupted because of this "win win" provocation by Russia.  I agree with Chelseaboy, your posts are an insult to Ukrainians.
 

That's fine, then take it as an insult...  Be that as it may, we shall see how the situation plays out in the years to come, if indeed Ukraine moves towards Europe and does well, while Russia took Crimea and does fine also.


Fathertime!     

[Chelseaboy]

I hope no-one is planning to visit Donetsk this week.

Shelling and fighting at the train station today,with the local residents leaving their homes.

[tfcrew]

If Putin 'mans up,' his regime will crumble........California Senator Barbara Feinstein has demanded that Vladimir Putin “man up” and admit that pro-Russian separatists downed MH17, mistaking it for a Ukrainian transport plane. That this is true is obvious to all except Putin’s propaganda machine that is frantically churning out absurd conspiracy theories, while Putin lies low and limits himself to vague claims of Ukrainian guilt.

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/paul-roderick-gregory-if-putin-mans-up-his-regime-will-crumble-357243.html

[Boethius]

Among 18 fighters who are captured after one of the last battles in the Luhansk region by the Operational Command "North", the majority are citizens of Russia - Russians, Chechens and one Ossetian.

Spokesman of the Operational Command "North" Anatolii Proshyn told "Radio Liberty".  Also among the detainees, there are Azerbaijanis and a Serbian citizen, and only a few separatists are Luhansk residents, he said.  According to him, captured militants believed that the Ukrainian soldiers will kill them and were surprised that after questioning and investigation they will be taken to court.

After liberation of the cities, the most important task of the Ukrainian army and the National Guard is psychological work with the general public, Anatolii Proshyn said. 

On Monday, when the Ukrainian military liberated the city Shchastia from the separatists, there were no people on the streets.  Later they explained that the militants intimidated them with atrocities allegedly committed by the Ukrainian military.  "People who communicate with us change their minds, but it is important to involve them in such communication."  Anatoli Proshyn said.

Therefore, now groups of psychologists are dispatched in these cities and the military help to distribute aid and assist in establishing normal life of the liberated cities.Yesterday the Operational Command "North" took part in the liberation of Rubizhne and in intense battles near Lysychansk. 

http://en.censor.net.ua/news/295111/most_of_detained_militants_in_luhansk_are_russian_citizens

[tfcrew]

After all this came about...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-ukraine-mps-fight-in-parliament-following-decision-to-call-up-extra-border-troops-9621427.html

This happened...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/24/arseniy-yatsenyuk-resigns_n_5617322.html

comments?

[Boethius]

Here is yet another example of the "local support" the terrorists received -

SEVERODONETSK, Ukraine – When three Russian-backed separatists with Kalashnikovs turned up at Yuliy Krasiuk’s shop last month, he told them he didn’t want their protection. “There’s no-one I need protecting from except for you guys,” he recalls telling them.  He was right.

The gunmen got angry with his response and plundered Krasiuk’s shop of used consumer electronics. They took his car and detained him for two days until his wife paid nearly $2,000 for his release.

Now, Krasiuk is celebrating after Ukrainian soldiers on July 22 liberated the Luhansk Oblast city of 110,000 residents. His story is being repeated across eastern Ukraine in recent weeks, as Ukraine’s army frees one city after another from occupation by armed Kremlin-backed guerillas and Russian mercenaries.

The big prizes – control of the provincial capitals of Donetsk and Luhansk – are left for the Ukrainian government to take amid reports of fierce fighting this week.

While some in the liberated cities supported the Russian-backed guerillas most say they suffered extortion, violence and intolerance.

When Ukrainian soldiers arrived here at a jail, they found four prisoners and two fresh corpses. All were locals, according to Oleksandr Zaporozhtsev, deputy police chief of Severodonetsk,  He also said that the separatists took dozens of hostages while retreating.

Russian-backed forces took control of the city in late May. Their strength reached up to 1,000 armed people and included Russians as well as representatives of the self-proclaimed Luhansk People’s Republic.  For their main headquarters, the separatists seized a nine-story building of the state-run Institute of Azot Industry, where some 400 fighters, including mercenaries reportedly from the Dagestan Province of Russia, settled.

They left mines, orange-and-black St. George ribbons that symbolize their pro-Russian orientation, a trampled Ukrainian flag, and leaflets from the Moscow-based Orthodox Foundation collecting money for the needs of New Russia – the Kremlin’s description of southeastern Ukraine.

Their leader was Pavel Dremov, who ruled Severodonetsk and directed a paramilitary Russian Cossack group. He is a former bricklayer from Stakhanov. They ruled ruthlessly, persecuting local drug deals and beating those convicted of looting.

But the reign of terror soon hit ordinary people also.

Krasiuk recalled a farmer who was captured at a checkpoint as he was taking milk and strawberries to sell at the local market. He was falsely accused of helping the Right Sector, a militant nationalist group. Krasiuk said that he and the farmer were imprisoned together and heard the farmer scream from torture. He doesn’t know what became of the fellow prisoner.

“I doubt that man stayed alive,” he said.   

Four representatives of the Orga­nization for Security and Cooperation in Europe were captured in Severodonetsk on May 29 and kept for nearly a month by separatists led by Nikolai Kozitsyn.

On July 10, a number of houses in Severodonetsk, including a big hotel complex, were damaged by shelling. While the separatists blamed the Ukrainian army, locals believe the separatists orchestrated the attacks to win the favor of local residents. Just a few minutes after the shelling, for instance, insurgents showed up, accompanied by Russian journalists who quickly reported that the Ukrainian army was shelling residential areas.

But the worst shelling came from July 18-22, when six people were killed and dozens wounded. Just like in previous takeovers, the Ukrainian troops applied Grad multiple rocket launchers, but denied using them on civilian targets. Overall, however, Severodonetsk did not experience big fights as separatists retreated south.

Oleksiy Svetikov, a local journalist and activist, believes that billionaire Dmytro Firtash, owner of city’s biggest Azot chemical plant, helped convince – or pay – the separatists to leave.

But days later, many residents are still hiding in school basements because they fear shelling, which can still be heard from several miles away from the fierce fighting that is under way in Lysychansk.  A few people gathered on July 23 at Severodonetsk’s main square, where a statue of Vladimir Lenin has a Ukrainian flag for a scarf.

When spotting a group of three Berkut riot police officers from Kirovograd, who were patrolling the city to make sure there were no more Kremlin-backed separatists left in the city, many people approached to thank them and bring them some food. Seeing them Krasiuk, the businessman, ran up to them and started shaking their hands, furiously and friendly.

“You can’t imagine how happy I am to see you guys here,” he said.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/severodonetsk-residents-recall-occupiers-brutality-357837.html

[BillyB]

After all this came about...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-ukraine-mps-fight-in-parliament-following-decision-to-call-up-extra-border-troops-9621427.html

This happened...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/24/arseniy-yatsenyuk-resigns_n_5617322.html

comments?

Too bad. I liked the PM. He worked very hard with world leaders to get support for his country.

[Boethius]

A glimpse of the "separatists" -

While many tales of atrocities have come to the surface over the past few months, most have been defined by two attributes:  the perpetrators' Russian origin, and the body of evidence coming from the testimony of victims and witnesses.

Some first hand interviews have offset the latter, shining light on the motivations and actions from both sides of the trigger, these have still mostly come from foreign invaders and not locals. One Sovietized insurgent from Armenia detailed his destructive foray into Ukraine, confirming that 80% of militants occupying Donetsk are foreigner like himself. Another Russian mercenary issued his disinterest in Luhansk’s destruction to the New York Times, ‘not giving a damn about any of this.’

Volodymyr Parasyuk, a revolutionary hero to many in Ukraine, provided first hand details of a captive’s confession; one that offers more than just casual indifference as a reason for violence. As the account goes, the National Guard’s Dnipro Battalion captured a Ukrainian paratrooper who had turned-coat and defected to the militants in the Donetsk Republic terrorist organization – informing them of military positions, weapon intel, checkpoint locations, and made possible Grad rocket attacks on Ukrainian positions.

The prisoner, Dmytro, was of the belief that Russian President Vladimir Putin was going to save them, and that they already had Russian assistance.

He also told Parasyuk how the Donetsk Republic’s men treated the local population: “They get all liquored up in the evening, they go down the streets, and they shoot at innocent civilians. Whoever kills more wins the bet.”

He also admitted that the group had raped young girls, “and anyone who refused got a rifle to the head and was offered a choice: obey or get a bullet to the head.”


Regionnaires (Party of Regions members) and Commies always yell that these aren't terrorists, that they’re just people with different views, and that Russians are our brothers. But here’s the way it is, they’re no brothers of ours. These are swine who hate everything Ukrainian and dream of destroying the Ukrainian nation, so that there’s not a trace of it left.

While it may be hard to gauge how much of the above is true – either said in duress or as twisted bravado – the scars of war undoubtedly yield likened brutality the world over. What sets Dmytro apart, however, is that he is not a foreign plunderer but a local collaborator; and not one with blasé detachment but frenzied indifference to his own people. If insurgent forces are described as “anti-Kyiv,” then why is equal belligerence meted out to local innocents?

It is true that the Russian backed ‘militias’ have been described as disorganized, chronically dysfunctional, and often drunk, just as the above testimony illustrated.
UN monitors have especially noted the steady rise in wanton violence by Russian-backed groups in Ukraine. “A climate of lawlessness prevails in the east with an increase in criminality, killings, abductions and detentions by the armed groups,” said UN Assistant Secretary-General for Human Rights Ivan Simonovic. More than a simply gradient increase, Hugh Williamson, Europe and Central Asia director at Human Rights Watch bluntly said that these groups are “out of control” and “abusing people at will.”

Another top UN human rights office official described the situation as a “reign of fear, if not a reign of terror,” in the areas controlled by these terrorist groups.


Amnesty International deputy director Denis Krivosheev describes, in clarifying that the bulk of abductions have been carried out by Russian-backed groups, that victims are “often subjected to stomach-turning beatings and torture.”

Russian-backed militias have also been known to employ terrorist tactics (MH17 aside), with Human Rights Watch noting that they use “beatings and kidnappings to send the message that anyone who doesn’t support them had better shut up or leave.”

But perhaps Oliver Carroll described the regional situation and local phenomenon best in Foreign Policy, calling it bluntly “a bit of the old ultraviolence,” a reference to Stanley Kubrick’s classic– because that’s what the situation on the ground, unleashed from the east, is increasingly appearing to be.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/07/24/more-of-the-old-ultraviolence-captured-traitors-confession-adds-to-growing-list-of-atrocities/