Who will win the War, Russia or Ukraine?

[Boethius]

I agree, just as I think Quebec has the right to establish laws for the use of French within the province. 

GQ raised it as an issue, in response to Steamer's post and my riposte.


ETA - At no point have these laws restricted the use of Russian language.  It's not banned.  It just isn't the official language of the state.

[Admin]

I agree, just as I think Quebec has the right to establish laws for the use of French within the province. 

GQ raised it as an issue, in response to Steamer's post and my riposte.


ETA - At no point have these laws restricted the use of Russian language.  It's not banned.  It just isn't the official language of the state.

Nor should it be. Ukraine is NOT Russia. Most multi-cultural multi-lingual countries must specify the official language of business and government. Notably, the US does not. At least, not yet. If/when someone successfully challenges an issue in the Federal Court system in Spanish or other foreign language, perhaps it will be addressed at that time.

[Jumper1]

This is an op-ed piece (I think the link is to the English translation) that appeared, "accidentally", in a Russian paper. 


According to Russian polls, 68% of Russians approve of the invasion.


http://uz.sputniknews.ru/20220226/nastuplenie-rossii-i-novogo-mira-22994815.html




The daily language of husband's family is Russian.  But nephew used to speak more surzhik when in Kyiv. 


When my husband was in the navy, a Ukrainian once said "There is no Ukraine beyond the river Buh."   I think that was too far.  Neverthless, even in Ukraine today, you'd hear more Ukrainian from about Vinnitsya and West.  Even in L'viv, the epicentre of Ukrainian nationalism, it is not unusual to hear Russian being spoken.

Yes, sorry  I edited my post, think my phone auto corrected my port typed message deleting the NOT.

Every city I've been to in ukraine ,the daily language was russian by far.

I've traveled over a good portion deal of it,including villages etc.

To be fair I never traveled to.the portions of western ukraine where it might be more common.

South western  coast cities seemed russian language predominately
Villages more central like dibrivni  also russian. All the central.and eastern cities as well and Crimea.

[GQBlues]

No, it's taking potshots at successive governments, over centuries, who suppressed the Ukrainian language. 

Russian continues to have minority language status in Ukraine.  There are Russian schools in every city, funded by Ukrainian state funds.  There are Russian newspapers.  Those living in Ukraine can access Russian media online.

Why is it a "potshot" for a country which is 78% ethnic Ukrainian to declare Ukrainian as its official language? 

How many Ukrainian language schools, funded by the Russian government, exist in Ukraine?  I'll tell you how many.  Zero.

Again, Ukraine can do what it wants to do in Ukraine, language law or otherwise.


Steamer mentioned 'taking pot shots at Russian speakers' (which to me suggested one of the root *ire* in the relationship between these two nations). I pointed out the provisions made in the Language Law - Article 25, that, based on a non-biased reporting, became controversial for the Russian-speaking Ukrainians. Russian language was shunned for the simple reason mentioned in the report. That's a government legislation. Why shun a language spoken by millions of its citizens, its largest minority, if there was not an intent of suggestive exclusion?


You honestly don't believe that wouldn't, shouldn't, incite consternation?

[Admin]

Again, Ukraine can do what it wants to do in Ukraine, language law or otherwise.


Steamer mentioned 'taking pot shots at Russian speakers' (which to me suggested one of the root *ire* in the relationship between these two nations). I pointed out the provisions made in the Language Law - Article 25, that, based on a non-biased reporting, became controversial for the Russian-speaking Ukrainians. Russian language was shunned for the simple reason mentioned in the report. That's a government legislation.


You honestly don't believe that wouldn't, shouldn't, incite consternation?

The simple recitation of historical fact as consideration for exercising sovereign right? No, that most certainly should not incite consternation.

[GQBlues]

I agree, just as I think Quebec has the right to establish laws for the use of French within the province. 

GQ raised it as an issue, in response to Steamer's post and my riposte.


ETA - At no point have these laws restricted the use of Russian language.  It's not banned.  It just isn't the official language of the state.

That's not accurate. No one, and not me, was arguing the law banned the Russian language, nor raise it controversial for not making Russian as Ukraine's state language.


Where exactly was that posted?

[GQBlues]

The simple recitation of historical fact as consideration for exercising sovereign right? No, that most certainly should not incite consternation.

The impetus of your post is misguided by the premise of what YOU thought was being discussed. No one said Ukraine isn't entitled to to exercise their sovereign right within it's borders.


Swing and miss, Dan. Try again.

[Admin]

Yes, sorry  I edited my post, think my phone auto corrected my port typed message deleting the NOT.

Every city I've been to in ukraine ,the daily language was russian by far.

I've traveled over a good portion deal of it,including villages etc.

To be fair I never traveled to.the portions of western ukraine where it might be more common.

South western  coast cities seemed russian language predominately
Villages more central like dibrivni  also russian. All the central.and eastern cities as well and Crimea.

I've traveled extensively in the West of Ukraine. While more common to hear Ukrainian than in the East or South, it is not uncommon to hear Russian spoken in Lviv or Uzghorod, to name just a couple. In my travels, since I only speak limited Russian, the people in Western Ukraine were very accommodating and met me more than half-way with the language issue.


Having said that, Donetsk and Mariupol were predominantly Russian. Not surprising, especially in Donetsk, given the Soviet displacement of the kulaks and re-settlement of others to take advantage of the massive Donbas coal reserves.

[Admin]

Swing and miss, Dan. Try again.

Childish response GQ.

[GQBlues]

Childish response GQ.

You were addressing my post based on an erroneous premise.

[Admin]

You were addressing my post based on an erroneous premise.

I'm pretty certain I understand what you were claiming, but for clarity sake, feel free to re-state it to be sure.

[GQBlues]

I'm pretty certain I understand what you were claiming, but for clarity sake, feel free to re-state it to be sure.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=25504.msg563156#msg563156

(An aside: How come the site can't take the link in a properly sized fonts when first posted? Just curious.)

[Admin]

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=25504.msg563156#msg563156

Steamer's post suggested that when Russia exits Ukraine, the Ukrainians will shoot Russian-speakers in the Eastern oblasts.

Somehow that morphed into a debate over the Ukrainian language. Due, no doubt, to the fact Steamer used the phrase "Russian speakers."
What did I miss?

[GQBlues]

Steamer's post suggested that when Russia exits Ukraine, the Ukrainians will shoot Russian-speakers in the Eastern oblasts.

Somehow that morphed into a debate over the Ukrainian language. Due, no doubt, to the fact Steamer used the phrase "Russian speakers."
What did I miss?

Semantics aside, its the 'taking pot shots at Russian-speakers' that was discussed. Doesn't necessarily, or simply, denote getting 'shot' at. The exchange morphed into the language issue after I posted the France 24 report about the controversy, as an example of 'taking pot shots...'

[Admin]

Semantics aside, its the 'taking pot shots at Russian-speakers' that was discussed. Doesn't necessarily, or simply, denote getting 'shot' at. The exchange morphed into the language issue after I posted the France 24 report about the controversy, as an example of 'taking pot shots...'

Yep, I got that. Hence, my question about why establishment of Ukrainian language in Ukraine is any sort of an issue. Your later post suggested the recitation of historical context in passage of the law was antagonistic to Russian-speakers and asked if it should "incite consternation." My reply was, and remains, of course it should not. Ukraine's right to specify the language of business and government is absolute. The facts of their subjection over the centuries is undeniable. Particularly in the much more nationalistic West of Ukraine, it is fully-expected there will be reminders of past aggressions as they establish (re-establish) more and more their fully Ukrainian identity. Your suggestion is it incites, my perspective is it's cathartic.

[Patagonie]

My practice of daily life in a dictature has given me another approach.
In the case of Ukraine, when you face a powerful neighbor, whatever the right is, whatever the elections are,you have to compose with your environment.
If your environment is by nature threatening you, you must adapt.
   
To tell you this in another way, Georgia has adopted a low profile since 2008 while Ukraine has often irritated the Russian Federation.
Renaming all streets, imposing the Ukrainian language, imposing the Ukrainian language to the customers more recently, repeatedly
claiming loudly about the EU and worse about NATO have not been IMHO the best way to calm down the old bear.
The very young lion doesn't come to provoke the chief of the pack or he will face a duel especially when it comes public, in front of the females (ONU).

[Trenchcoat]

Apparently it's official now, Kherson has fallen to Russian troops:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10571561/First-Ukrainian-city-falls-Mayor-Kherson-tells-people-follow-orders-Russian-soldiers.html

So that's the first major Ukrainian city fallen to the Russians. Can only assume most of the Ukrainian troops protecting Kherson perished since Kherson was surrounded there would be no way out. Don't know how many troops there were protecting Kherson, apparently earlier in the week they were fighting for control of a bridge then later apparently protecting the city centre.

Now Ukrainian citizens in Kherson have to follow Russian troop orders. No doubt the the prettiest girls will be ordered to spread them I would wager. Expect many tales of rape to filter through over the coming days I would expect as the Russian soldiers make their way around the women one by one.

Mariupol looks likey to be the next city to befall the fate of Kherson by the looks of it.

[Admin]

My practice of daily life in a dictature has given me another approach.
In the case of Ukraine, when you face a powerful neighbor, whatever the right is, whatever the elections are,you have to compose with your environment.
If your environment is by nature threatening you, you must adapt.
   
To tell you this in another way, Georgia has adopted a low profile since 2008 while Ukraine has often irritated the Russian Federation.
Renaming all streets, imposing the Ukrainian language, imposing the Ukrainian language to the customers more recently, repeatedly
claiming loudly about the EU and worse about NATO have not been IMHO the best way to calm down the old bear.
The very young lion doesn't come to provoke the chief of the pack or he will face a duel especially when it comes public, in front of the females (ONU).

All the more reason to applaud their courage in the face of tyranny. Ukrainians rightly claim they have been doing their best to 'get along' with their more powerful neighbor in spite of a Russian invasion in 2014 and constant insurgency in the East by Russia and Russian-backed forces.

Only *if* you claim that Ukraine does NOT have the right as a sovereign nation to pursue membership in the EU and/or NATO, can you then make a logical argument in favor of Russia's aggression.

If you acknowledge Ukraine's sovereign rights, then you must condemn the aggression.

[Patagonie]

All the more reason to applaud their courage in the face of tyranny. Ukrainians rightly claim they have been doing their best to 'get along' with their more powerful neighbor in spite of a Russian invasion in 2014 and constant insurgency in the East by Russia and Russian-backed forces.

Only *if* you claim that Ukraine does NOT have the right as a sovereign nation to pursue membership in the EU and/or NATO, can you then make a logical argument in favor of Russia's aggression.

If you acknowledge Ukraine's sovereign rights, then you must condemn the aggression.

The problem is I think they haven't been doing their best to "get along" with their neighbor.
I am not favoring the Russian aggression in any way.
Pursuing NATO membership is the best way to make the RF furious right now. It would have been better to wait until the end of the reign and shut up while strengthening the economical and military power IMHO. The right cannot do anything confronted by brute force.

[GQBlues]

Yep, I got that. Hence, my question about why establishment of Ukrainian language in Ukraine is any sort of an issue. Your later post suggested the recitation of historical context in passage of the law was antagonistic to Russian-speakers and asked if it should "incite consternation." My reply was, and remains, of course it should not. Ukraine's right to specify the language of business and government is absolute. The facts of their subjection over the centuries is undeniable. Particularly in the much more nationalistic West of Ukraine, it is fully-expected there will be reminders of past aggressions as they establish (re-establish) more and more their fully Ukrainian identity. Your suggestion is it incites, my perspective is it's cathartic.

No one said establishment of Ukrainian language in Ukraine was an issue. Not sure why you keep going back to this?


The issue, while it may not be to you - but are apparently is to the Russian-speaking citizens of Ukraine - is the Article 25 Provisions that call to violation for anyone who doesn't first speak Ukrainian, with the exception of English or any other European language/s, in certain business sector, and could potentially be faced with a sizeable punitive fine. It specifically excluded Russian in that exception clause. Russian is the largest, if not second-largest language spoken in Ukraine. What was the point of its exclusion if not to 'take pot shots at Russian-speakers'. That's exactly what the Ukrainian authorities intended to do.

Now you can take the position Ukraine can do whatever it wants, as much as you and Ukraine want - it doesn't dismiss the reality that act is 'taking pot shots at Russian-speakers' living in Ukraine. This very discussion/denial does give rise, in part, to the current volatility/hostility in the region.


I can't imagine legislating a law in the US that all businesses must conduct themselves speaking only English first with the exception of Mandarin, Lebanese, Tagalog, Vietnamese, etc...or be fined, and not cause the consternation of the Spanish-speaking communities in the US.

[Boethius]

I went and read the legislation.  It provides for Ukrainian in the "public sphere", meaning government and publicly funded entities.  It creates a government department for "Ukrainization" of words.  This is not unusual.  France, for example, has such a department, so that words retain a characteristically French linguistic origin.  The law also provides that movies produced in Ukraine must have Ukrainian language (that doesn't mean they can't also have another language), and dubbed movies must be dubbed in Ukrainian.  This is because movie studios were only dubbing in Russian, as it's more cost effective. 


All computers must have Ukrainian language, although other languages of the EU can be used.  That is why English was included.  At the time this law was enacted, Ukraine was moving to EU standards, at the insistence of the EU in granting loans.


Those applying for citizenship must have a basic proficiency in Ukrainian.  No different than in Russia (which also requires passing a history test), and no different than Canada (English or French proficiency is required for anyone under 55 applying for citizenship).


There is nothing that stipulates Ukrainian must be used in private communications.  If it has been, that's because of the public.  It was not imposed by government.

[Trenchcoat]

Thinking maybe all this talk about the Ukrainian language could be moved to my Ukrainian language thread here it seems to be a bit

[Trenchcoat]

Anyway, latest here seems to be that the Russian column of Armour north of Kyiv has apparently almost ground to a standstill. They apparently seem to be running out of food and fuel plus breakdowns and attacks by Ukrainians.

I think the Ukrainian Army needed to capitalise on this situation as much as possible by getting as many of their troops out there with anti-tank weapons and try to take out as much of their armour as they possibly can. Sounds like a golden opportunity to inflict a great military defeat on the Russians which the Ukrainians can ill afford to pass up in my opinion.

[Chelseaboy]

The Ukrainian troops can only attack the column from suitable vantage points,which of course will be protected by Russian troops.


You can't just rock up in a field in a flat terrain,stand or lie there and fire anti-tank missiles....the Russian troops and Tanks will be hitting you with everything they've got while you're in such an exposed position.


If you can find a house to shelter behind the Russians will just hit it with a missile and that's you done for.


It will actually be easier to inflict damage on the Russian forces in Kiev..it will be carnage in confined spaces,with Ukrainian troops having cover to operate from.


Russia's troops will know this..hence their hesitation in entering the city.


This isn't a Rambo movie Trench..this is real life.


Air strikes would be the best way to attack the column but with seemingly no undamaged airfields to operate from this is not an option.


Drones would have been another option,but we don't know if Russia has knocked out all their operating capabilities or not.


The Ukrainian troops have been preparing for this for eight years,with specialized training from NATO....i think we can assume they know what they're doing.

[fathertime]

Anyway, latest here seems to be that the Russian column of Armour north of Kyiv has apparently almost ground to a standstill. They apparently seem to be running out of food and fuel plus breakdowns and attacks by Ukrainians.

It could be that the column is standing still for a reason we don't know about just yet.  Perhaps from a strategic standpoint, that is where Russia wants them to be. 

Fathertime!