The Real Victors of WW2 in Europe

[lordtiberius]

I don't want to hear any anti-American crap.

[Steamer]

I don't want to hear any anti-American crap.

You didn't.

[Brasscasing]

Well then, I guess that makes it alright. If Americans do it, it must be okay.

What are you on about now? You're the one making the fictitious comparisons between the two air force components. I've simply corrected you and set the (historical) record straight.

First you got to read, then you got to comprehend what you're reading. You're getting mad at me when you should be mad at yourself.

I'm not getting 'mad' period. Incredulous at the BS you're spouting, maybe but not angry.

Anotherkiwi and I were discussing accuracy of bombers and policies. He said the accuracy of WW2 bombers are bad especially at night and I said accuracy isn't important if it's policy to bomb citizens.

Oh, that's what you were discussing...I must have confused you with the other BillyB who was posting the BS quoted below...

I can understand Churchill trying something new to win the war but it was discovered bombing civilians was ineffective. That's why Air Marshal Harris bombing civilians till the end of the war was controversial. In one of the links I provided after the bombing of civilians became policy, the output of the Germany economy rose and became more geared towards wartime needs. Public support in Germany for the Nazi regime, and civilian morale, was not affected. This kind of stuff can backfire when you bomb somebody's women and children.

Accuracy of the bombers isn't the issue, their choice of targets is which is bombing civilians over pursuing strategic targets. In this case, accuracy isn't all that important so using a lack of accuracy as an excuse for their behavior is lame. I showed you it was British policy and they put a man in charge to execute this policy. According to the link I provided, 6 out of every 10 British bomber airman died. If they pursued the heavily defended strategic targets, it would have been more. They chose to take the low and easy road.

Anybody ever seen the movie Memphis Belle? True story of the first American B-17 bomber to successfully complete 25 missions. At one point the Memphis Belle was flying over a Germany city to bomb a factory. It was heavily clouded and they couldn't get a good site on the target. Memphis Belle had the lead and if they dropped their bombs, the following bombers would follow. The captain couldn't see the target so he ordered them to circle around to find it again. The co-pilot wanted to drop the bombs just to get it over with and go home since they were under heavy flak fire. The captain didn't want to drop the bombs on civilians and he also reasoned if they didn't get the factory, another mission will have to take place risking pilots lives to bomb it. As individuals, we sometimes make wrong or right decisions in a time of war. Sometimes we take the high road or the low road out of fear or anger. British pilots weren't given a choice. It was their nation's policy to "area" bomb German cities which is a nice way to say civilians are on the menu. I'm sure it weighed on many pilots consciences.

What's the difference between dropping an incendiary bomb on civilians or burning them in ovens? If there were real results to ending the war sooner which would save lives, I'm all for it but it was proven ineffective yet the British continued with the policy. Victors get to write the history books so in this case, unlike the concentration camps, you won't read it as a war crime but it is what it is.

Right, let's review (my bolded above)...

You're suggesting that Germany's war time industrial output grew as a result of the allied (or more specifically the British) bombing initiative. Not so, German industry was going to increase output regardless of whether the allies employed area or strategic bombing.

How do we know this? Because history tells us so. The allies employed both strategies and neither destroyed German industry.

What it did do was make the German's go underground both the civilian population and industry hampering the full potential of German industrial output.

It created petroleum shortages slowing the Nazi war machine.

It destroyed the Luftwaffe which was forced to meet the allies head on in the air to defend German industry and factories.  The very year Germany's war time industry peaked, 1944 a year after Pointblank (see below) was initiated, was the year the allies secured air superiority over European skies. D-day wouldn't have happened if the Luftwaffe had still been a force to be reckoned with.

" I showed you it was British policy and they put a man in charge to execute this policy. According to the link I provided, 6 out of every 10 British bomber airman died. If they pursued the heavily defended strategic targets, it would have been more. They chose to take the low and easy road."

" yet the British continued with the policy. Victors get to write the history books so in this case, unlike the concentration camps, you won't read it as a war crime but it is what it is."

Do you have any knowledge of the Casablanca Directive or Operation Pointblank? No, I thought not or you wouldn't be mouthing off about stuff you know nothing about. Read the following...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casablanca_directive

The Casablanca directive replaced RAF Directive No.5. Any bombing strategies after Pointblank was implemented was a joint US/British directive. in other words, as stated above the US and RAF bombing strategies were virtually identical.

I hope this clears things up for you.

Brass

[BillyB]

I'm not getting 'mad' period. Incredulous at the BS you're spouting, maybe but not angry.

So the rant you previously made wasn't about "holier than thou" issues? Thanks for finally reading the discussion. The rant you're making now is because you don't like the history that's being talked about. Write the organizations who created the history links I provided about your displeasure towards what they write but I doubt ranting to them will change history.

What it did do was make the German's go underground both the civilian population and industry hampering the full potential of German industrial output.

When Germans bombed British women and children, did it make the British there want to quit too or did it make them work harder to kill the enemy who was doing those things? Bombing factories and the workers in it will tamper with industrial output much better than bombing women and children. You can't accept the fact the good guys have done a few bad things in the war. It goes against everything you learned as a child.

I hope this clears things up for you.

Nope, you didn't change my mind. Try harder and get angrier next time, that might work.

[lordtiberius]

When you bomb women and children, you kinda loose your right to complain about it when the victims then bomb your women and children.

[jone]

Or you might even phrase it:

"They that sow the wind shall reap the whirlwind."

Arthur 'Bomber' Harris - 1940  (whoever he was?)

[jone]

As a side note, I watched the movie: Emperor, by Peter Webber (2012)

It begins with the dropping of the bomb on Nagasaki and relates the story of Bonner Fellers who authored the argument to keep Hirohito on the throne.  A sidebar in the film had Fellers influencing the bombing of Japanese targets to protect his Japanese fiancee.

A good entertainment for students of history and those responsible for WWII.  The Allies were merciless in the prosecution of war in Japan, but this film demonstrates, truthfully, the attitude which made Japan a staunch ally of the United States.

[fathertime]

When you bomb women and children, you kinda loose your right to complain about it when the victims then bomb your women and children.

We bombed a lot of women and children in Japan.

Fathertime!

[lordtiberius]

You're right.  The Japs are sinless.  It was all our fault.

[lordtiberius]

Or you might even phrase it:

"They that sow the wind shall reap the whirlwind."

Arthur 'Bomber' Harris - 1940  (whoever he was?)

 

Riding the back of the tiger

[Brasscasing]

So the rant you previously made wasn't about "holier than thou" issues?

My response to LT's comment that "Everything is America's fault" is not a 'rant'. It clarifies that I'm not blaming the US for it's strategies/policies during WW2 but, as posted above, taking issue with and addressing your judgmental, holier-than-thou crap about how the Americans prosecuted a better/cleaner kind of war than their allies when U.S. historical records and war diaries state otherwise.

It further explained that your misrepresentation of WW2 US/British bombing initiatives is an insult to all the countries/men and women who/that fought and sacrificed to bring WW2 to a successful conclusion.

Thanks for finally reading the discussion. The rant you're making now is because you don't like the history that's being talked about. Write the organizations who created the history links I provided about your displeasure towards what they write but I doubt ranting to them will change history.

First off, apparently you're not familiar with the definition of "rant" as this is the second time you've misused the word in responding to my comments.

rant:
verb uk    us    /rænt/
› to speak or shout in a loud, uncontrolled, or angry way, often saying confused or silly things:

rant:
noun [C] uk    us    /rænt/
› a long, angry, and confused speech

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/rant

You'll know it if I post a 'rant'.

Your comment in regards to "finally reading the discussion" is as erroneous as your particular version of WW2 history - my reading the discussion is what prompted me to correct your comments in the first place.

Liking or disliking history is not relevant to this discussion because I'm not addressing or voicing my "displeasure towards what they write". What I am taking issue with and correcting is your fallacious variation on it.

Further, there is no need to "Write the organizations who created the history."  It's the inaccuracy of your conclusions I'm addressing.

When Germans bombed British women and children, did it make the British there want to quit too or did it make them work harder to kill the enemy who was doing those things? Bombing factories and the workers in it will tamper with industrial output much better than bombing women and children. You can't accept the fact the good guys have done a few bad things in the war. It goes against everything you learned as a child.

Howbout we stick to your fictionalized history of recorded British/US bombing policy and initiatives. I've no intention of widening this subject into some nebulous hypothetical argument with you over the morality of warfare. My interest is in correcting the historical falsehoods you've posted, which I've done.

And you can't accept the fact that you've been caught once again making stuff up. Based on your comments above, what I learned as a child was far more accurate and concise that what you were taught.

Nope, you didn't change my mind. Try harder and get angrier next time, that might work.

Oh, I have no doubt you'll keep repeating your ill informed conclusions on this subject, that's just what you do. However, I'll also be correcting your historical inaccuracies when I spot them.  So, if you need to attach emotional edit: parameters to my narratives to assist you in coping with them, please do so, it won't alter their content.

Brass

[Brasscasing]

Or you might even phrase it:

"They that sow the wind shall reap the whirlwind."

Arthur 'Bomber' Harris - 1940 (whoever he was?)

..."In February 1942, Harris, now an Air Marshal, was placed in command of the RAF's Bomber Command. During the first two years of the war, the RAF's bombers had suffered heavy casualties while being forced to abandon daylight bombing due to German resistance. Flying at night, the effectiveness of their raids was minimal as targets proved difficult, if not impossible, to find. As a result, studies showed that less than one bomb in ten fell within five miles of its intended target. To combat this, Professor Frederick Lindemann, a confidant of Prime Minister Winston Churchill, began advocating area bombing.

Approved by Churchill in 1942, the doctrine of area bombing called for raids against urban areas with the goal of destroying housing and displacing German industrial workers. Though controversial, it was approved by the Cabinet as it provided a way to directly attack Germany. The task of implementing of this policy was given to Harris and Bomber Command. Moving forward, Harris was initially hampered by a lack of aircraft and electronic navigation equipment. As a result, early area raids often were inaccurate and ineffective.

On May 30/31, Harris launched Operation Millennium against the city of Cologne. To mount this 1,000-bomber raid, Harris was forced scavenge aircraft and crews from training units. Utilizing a new tactic known as the "bomber stream," Bomber Command was able to overwhelm the German night air defense system known as the Kammhuber Line. The attack was also facilitated by the use of a new radio navigation system known as GEE. Striking Cologne, the raid started 2,500 fires in the city and established area bombing as a viable concept.

A huge propaganda success, it would be some time until Harris was able to mount another 1,000-bomber raid. As Bomber Command's strength grew and new aircraft, such as the Avro Lancaster and the Handley Page Halifax, appeared in large numbers, Harris' raids became larger and larger. In July 1943, Bomber Command, working in conjunction with the US Army Air Force, commenced Operation Gomorrah against Hamburg. Bombing around the clock, the Allies leveled over ten square miles of the city. Heartened by the success of his crews, Harris planned a massive assault on Berlin for that fall.

Believing that the reduction of Berlin would end the war, Harris opened the Battle of Berlin on the night of November 18, 1943. Over the next four months, Harris launched sixteen mass raids on the German capital. Though large areas of the city were destroyed, Bomber Command lost 1,047 aircraft during the battle and it was generally viewed as a British defeat. With the impending Allied invasion of Normandy, Harris was ordered to switch away from area raids on German cities to more precision strikes on the French railroad network.

Angered by what he perceived as a waste of effort, Harris complied though he openly stated that Bomber Command was not designed or equipped for these types of strikes. His complaints proved moot as Bomber Command's raids proved highly effective. With the Allied success in France, Harris was permitted to return to area bombing. Reaching peak efficiency in the winter/spring of 1945, Bomber Command pounded German cities on a routine basis. The most controversial of these raids occurred early in the campaign when aircraft struck Dresden on February 13/14, igniting a firestorm that killed tens of thousands of civilians. With the war winding down, the final Bomber Command raid came on April 25/26, when aircraft destroyed an oil refinery in southern Norway."...

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/airforce/p/bomberharris.htm

Brass

[fathertime]

You're right.  The Japs are sinless.  It was all our fault.

The Japanese being 'sinless' is not what was said.  We (the USA) did indeed bomb women and children in Japan. 

Fathertime!

[lordtiberius]

Casualty rates in the Army Air Corps was over 50% more dangerous than the Marines in the Pacific.

[2tallbill]

Nope, you didn't change my mind.

He doesn't need to change your mind, only show that your original premise was
wrong. I think Brass accomplished that.

[Brasscasing]

He doesn't need to change your mind, only show that your original premise was wrong. I think Brass accomplished that.

Spot on, Bill. Thank you.

Brass

[fathertime]

Casualty rates in the Army Air Corps was over 50% more dangerous than the Marines in the Pacific.

Well I guess the Japanese were cagey fighters then, but we did resort to killing women and children as a result. 

Fathertime!

[Photo Guy]

The Japanese being 'sinless' is not what was said.  We (the USA) did indeed bomb women and children in Japan. 

Fathertime!

War is Hell. Women and children die too. The life of a soldier is the same value as a woman or child.

[lordtiberius]

Well I guess the Japanese were cagey fighters then, but we did resort to killing women and children as a result. 

Fathertime!

Lol

[BillyB]

Howbout we stick to your fictionalized history of recorded British/US bombing policy and initiatives. I've no intention of widening this subject into some nebulous hypothetical argument with you over the morality of warfare. My interest is in correcting the historical falsehoods you've posted, which I've done.

And you can't accept the fact that you've been caught once again making stuff up.

First you say this and then you say...

Approved by Churchill in 1942, the doctrine of area bombing called for raids against urban areas with the goal of destroying housing and displacing German industrial workers. Though controversial, it was approved by the Cabinet as it provided a way to directly attack Germany.

Do you understand what area bombing is? It's bombing civilians. If displacing German industrial workers is so important, dropping a bomb on their area of work is more effective. No need to get rid of their home and family when you can just get rid of them.


This is the internet, take a chill pill. No need to get worked up over something that contradicts what you once believed.

He doesn't need to change your mind, only show that your original premise was
wrong. I think Brass accomplished that.

I guess you didn't read the history links either.

[Steamer]

This is the internet, take a chill pill. No need to get worked up over something that contradicts what you once believed.

These are called learning moments.

[fathertime]

Lol

 

[fathertime]

First you say this and then you say...




Do you understand what area bombing is? It's bombing civilians. If displacing German industrial workers is so important, dropping a bomb on their area of work is more effective. No need to get rid of their home and family when you can just get rid of them.


This is the internet, take a chill pill. No need to get worked up over something that contradicts what you once believed.



I guess you didn't read the history links either.

From what I've seen/read...the Allies bombed the bejesus out of civilians (Women and Children) on purpose in Germany. 


Of course Germany did the same. 




Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

 

Its good to see you smile.

[fathertime]

Its good to see you smile.

LOL

Fathertime!