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Author Topic: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?  (Read 451024 times)

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Offline BillyB

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #975 on: April 23, 2014, 03:46:44 PM »
I think I read yesterday or the day before that Putin would like to make Crimea a gambling zone, with Casinos.


Fathertime!   


I don't think I'd be thrilled to hear from President Obama my neighborhood is only good for building Casinos. It's best for Putin to let smart business men build Crimea's economy but first Putin has to make a business friendly environment.


According to article below Russian foreign ministry issued a statement demanding that Ukraine pull its armed forces out of the crisis-ridden region. That's like telling Ukraine to pull it's troops out of Ukraine...... unless Russia doesn't consider east Ukraine part of Ukraine which translates to telling Ukraine to pull it's troops out of New Russia.


http://news.yahoo.com/amid-russian-warning-ukraines-security-bind-183618934.html
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline justme100

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #976 on: April 23, 2014, 03:56:30 PM »

It would be wise for all Ukrainians to take their money out banks right now. Anytime there is conflict and regime change, there's a big chance people will lose money kept in banks. My mother in law lost all the money she had in a Libyan bank after Libya's civil war.
Yes, unfortunately so(Privatbank made limitations long prior to referendum, so people could withdraw only 500 grivnas per day. All salaries, pensions, deposits people had on their Privatbank accounts - all went to mr.Kolomoyski.


Offline justme100

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #977 on: April 23, 2014, 04:00:12 PM »
Thanks for the update justme100. It's great to get the real goods from someone on the ground there. :)

The above words jumped off the page for me too (as with Gator).

Can you please explain to us what you meant exactly?
Which Crimeans are in Donetsk (Ukrainian or Russian descent)?
What do you mean by "help everything happen"?
I didn't check their origin. People from those regions helped us when we had troubles in March, so now Crimean men gathered and went there to help them fight against pro-Fashington Junta.

Offline CanadaMan

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #978 on: April 23, 2014, 05:22:17 PM »
Yes, unfortunately so(Privatbank made limitations long prior to referendum, so people could withdraw only 500 grivnas per day. All salaries, pensions, deposits people had on their Privatbank accounts - all went to mr.Kolomoyski.

An often repeated story from FSU countries is how people don't save their money in banks, investments etc. there like we do in the west.
They prefer to spend their money while they can.

I guess this is as good an example as you're going to find for the reason why they do this.

(This ties into the 'non-greedy' mentality too).


Offline Chelseaboy

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #979 on: April 23, 2014, 05:28:36 PM »
Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk "The World stands on the brink of conflict,the consequences of which are not foreseen.Not everyone in Europe is aware of this situation "

At least 7,000 Polish workers in Europe,including the UK,have received call-up papers as Army reservists in the last few weeks.

Meanwhile as the USA sends 600 Airborne troops into the Baltics,Russia starts naval exercises in the Caspian.
Just saying it like it is.

Offline southernX

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #980 on: April 23, 2014, 06:15:45 PM »
Quote
There are thousands of Crimeans in Donetsk region now in order to help everything happen.

this is the polite way to say the general male population [titushki etc ] have left to help destabilise the donestk region

the hotels iv stayed at in crimea in the last few visits have all been new and of great condition 4+ stars , same goes for cafes, restuarants etc , let alone the numerous ones being built right along the waterfront
tourist services have also been good

SX,
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

Offline JayH

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #981 on: April 23, 2014, 06:23:45 PM »
Given that there is little to no work for Crimeans on Crimea-- being paid  per day more than a normal months salary to go and play at being a thug  would look very attractive!! Perhaps that explains the comment?

Russians will succeed at creating a generation of criminals on the Crimea.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline calmissile

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #982 on: April 23, 2014, 06:30:47 PM »
this is the polite way to say the general male population [titushki etc ] have left to help destabilise the donestk region

the hotels iv stayed at in crimea in the last few visits have all been new and of great condition 4+ stars , same goes for cafes, restuarants etc , let alone the numerous ones being built right along the waterfront
tourist services have also been good

SX,

Ditto!! 

As you may recall from my trip report and photos, the housing, restaurants, etc  in Sevastopol were very nice.  Let's see how long it takes the Russians to screw it up.

So she says Russia will bring a submarine base to Crimea (again).  I wonder if the photos I have of the underground sub base in Balaclava will be priceless because of a new secret sub base.  ;D 
Doubt it though.  Unless Putin backs out of the START agreement, it is likely to remain START accountable.

 
Doug (Calmissile)

Offline southernX

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #983 on: April 23, 2014, 06:53:04 PM »
Quote
  JUST ME All salaries, pensions, deposits people had on their Privatbank accounts - all went to mr.Kolomoyski.

one has to wonder if this is in retaliation ? one way mr kolomoyski can effectivley get some compensation for the loss of his property assets in crimea
being a ukraine citizen and hated by putin he may well have lost his property rights in crimea under the new [criminal regime of aksanov ] gov

how many banks did he have in crimea ? & what would there earning potential be
why is it ok for russia to steal ukraines property /assets etc in crimea to the tune of billions but not the reverse ? 

hypocrisy at its worst
 
SX
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Offline JayH

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #984 on: April 23, 2014, 07:09:37 PM »
Account holders have not lost the money-- just not accessible in Crimea-- fwiw :)
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #985 on: April 23, 2014, 07:38:18 PM »
Nice try but no cigar...

This is what I said: ..Considering he's the duly elected president, the power was given to him to decide for the people by proxy... - on the subject of foreign negotiations.

In which, you asked: "...Where's your proof (citation please) that this is legal?  Is it written in the Ukrainian constitution (the earlier version - 2004? - not the one that Yanukovych rewrote himself) that the President may make totally unilateral decisions, without reference to the actual Government?  This is the action of a dictator, not a "duly elected" President...."

So I then gave you the 'exact' citation accordingly with a quote: "...The President represents the country and government as a whole in international affairs. The President has the authority to conduct negotiations and sign treaties on behalf of the Ukrainian government. The right to recognize foreign nations rests solely with the President..... "

Having realized this exchange, instead of acknowledging I didn't make that sh!t up you instead decided to 'fudge' around based in how YOU interpret the words explained in the citation as though somehow what YOU think versus what was inscribed in their constitution matters more. LOL.

For crying out loud!  I never said that you made it up, so why should I need to acknowledge anything of that sort?  "On behalf of the Government" means exactly that - it DOESN'T mean go ahead and do what the hell you want.  The recognition of foreign nations is clearly written as a matter solely for the President - the preceding sentence is NOT.


Then why the hell even bitch about anything if you found it in the provided citation I gave you to begin with?

LOL. Couldn't be bothered? Are you this dense? I gave you the citation and everything you asked for and challenged PLUS even more (Oath). Lack of diligence on your part is your problem, not mine kiddo.

Again, read what I wrote: "It's important enough to be worth publishing within your post."  Nothing to do with diligence, or lack of - there are very few members who read Ukrainian, so why not show the English version as well to make life simpler?  Just an observation.

Supposition. Hyperbole. Speculations.

Crap.
 

Here's my supposition: Protection of heads-of-states is norm in any civilized nation, regardless of the content of its constitution. Even during civil/criminal deliberation, accusations or prosecution.

No problem - I agree with you on this.  I'm just asking if the Ukrainian Constitution specifically refers to a particular organisation as the protector.


Wrong. You obviously didn't understand what you read.

Article 111:

"The President of Ukraine may be removed from office by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by the procedure of impeachment, in the event that he or she commits state treason or other crime.

I understood it perfectly, except that it's contradicted by the following:
 
Article 105:

The President of Ukraine enjoys the right of immunity during the term of authority. Persons guilty of offending the honor and dignity of the President of Ukraine are brought to responsibility on the basis of the law. The title of President of Ukraine is protected by law and is reserved for the President for life, unless the President of Ukraine has been removed from office by the procedure of impeachment (see impeachment reasons and process).

If he has the right of immunity (presumably from prosecution), is an accusation of treason or other crime(s) enough?

Offline JayH

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NATO should act now, not later
« Reply #986 on: April 23, 2014, 07:49:10 PM »
Interesting article that gets the point.

http://www.dw.de/nato-should-act-now-not-later/a-17582668

"If Europe and the United States are unwilling to arm their diplomacy with small force now, they are condemned to use much greater force later, probably after they are attacked. Remember the Blitzkrieg and Pearl Harbor. History does not repeat itself but it rhymes."
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline GQBlues

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #987 on: April 23, 2014, 10:43:16 PM »

For crying out loud!  I never said that you made it up, so why should I need to acknowledge anything of that sort?  "On behalf of the Government" means exactly that - it DOESN'T mean go ahead and do what the hell you want.  The recognition of foreign nations is clearly written as a matter solely for the President - the preceding sentence is NOT.

 :rolleyes:

You can do one of two things, or both.

Either find the definition of *Authority* or search for its synonyms. Keep in mind the word I used in my post you initially challenged. You will be astounded to *see* - POWER will almost always be front and center in either exercise.

Nowhere in my post did I ever used absolute authority, absolute power, sole authority, sole power.

If that isn't good enough for you, then I happily leave this silliness in your state alone. You are chasing a ghost.



Quote
...Again, read what I wrote: "It's important enough to be worth publishing within your post."  Nothing to do with diligence, or lack of - there are very few members who read Ukrainian, so why not show the English version as well to make life simpler?  Just an observation....

Then you best read what *I* wrote. The oath provided to you in the post was *in addition to* (complimentary - secondary) to what was the primary intent of your request. A CITATION.
 
Quote
Crap.

Very predictable.

Quote
I understood it perfectly, except that it's contradicted by the following:
 
If he has the right of immunity (presumably from prosecution), is an accusation of treason or other crime(s) enough?

There is NO contradiction.

Article 111 is the State's (Ukraine) provision to ensure the integrity and protection of its Constitution and governance by affording itself a legal way to remove the President from power and service through the process of impeachment. Right of Immunity is given to the President during the term of authority *UNLESS* just cause for impeachment i.e. if proven and convicted of treason or criminality.

« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 11:14:13 PM by GQBlues »
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Offline missAmeno

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #988 on: April 23, 2014, 11:03:08 PM »

I was under the assumption that some Ukrainian troops are busy chasing militants and the others are doing nothing but sitting and waiting in case of invasion. It seems all Ukrainian troops are busy. I suspect attempts to attack your brother's military unit are more to test their combat readiness than to take them over. I'm sure Russian generals are hard at work trying to learn Ukrainian troop locations, what equipment their using, size of units and their combat readiness to gain more advantages. When going into battle, a Russian general would be foolish to send a light infantry unit against a heavily armored Ukrainian tank battalion.

Do not know about all but from those that I know, they are sitting in strategically important location. When Russian attempts to cross border some of them will be first line of defense and by their quantities it looks like it will be really bloody invasion. Lets just say that I didn't expect my brother's unit to be half in size from what it is. Of course it is not same as quantities of Russian troops on Ukrainian border but it is not little either. And therefore I am inclined to think if those Ukrainian units have not been sitting where they are sitting Russian troops may have already crossed border. Russia demanding withdraw Ukrainian troops not without reason.

Offline justme100

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #989 on: April 23, 2014, 11:40:54 PM »
this is the polite way to say the general male population [titushki etc ] have left to help destabilise the donestk region

the hotels iv stayed at in crimea in the last few visits have all been new and of great condition 4+ stars , same goes for cafes, restuarants etc , let alone the numerous ones being built right along the waterfront
tourist services have also been good

SX,
the key words here are " the hotels I have stayed." There are good hotels, no doubt. Mainly private ones. But in general state tourist infrastructure is in awful condition in Crimea - it's not a secret)

Offline justme100

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #990 on: April 23, 2014, 11:46:51 PM »
An often repeated story from FSU countries is how people don't save their money in banks, investments etc. there like we do in the west.
They prefer to spend their money while they can.

I guess this is as good an example as you're going to find for the reason why they do this.

(This ties into the 'non-greedy' mentality too).
Well, yes, you are totally right. The money affair of 1990, when everybody in the former Soviet Union lost what they had on their accounts made a deep trace in people's mind.


This time people also tried to spend all the money they could buying anything possible just to invest it as grivna is heading its way to nowhere. Last week my father wanted to buy a car and as he visited auto salons there was nothing left. All the cars are bought and wait packed for new laws from Russia to be registered.


Offline JayH

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Boris Filatov: We destroyed Putin's plans to Dnepropetrovsk
« Reply #991 on: April 24, 2014, 12:41:20 AM »
Below is very interesting link  of questions and answers of a key player resisting Russian invasion.
           For those who pedantically keep trying to turn back the clock on the forum--events have run past the stupid point you attempt to re-hash ridiculously. It only highlights how little you comprehend about what has happened-- and what is going on-- so please-- spare us all your stupidity. In particular-- read this link.It covers a lot of issues that are CURRENT .So please-instead of running off to Wiki to get yesterdays "news"( debatable as Wiki is still an opinion)-- read this.
            While I am at it-- there is no "win-win" here for anybody--over Crimean invasion--or the invasion Russia is attempting of mainland Ukraine. At a tenuous time in Ukraine's history the government needed to be able to get on with governing-- undoing the the damage of Yanukovych  and cronies-- setting a path to the future.Instead-- Ukraine is engrossed in a battle to save their nationhood.It is totally contemptible behaviour from Russia-- from any nation-- but one most in Ukraine considered a close friend or family member it is extreme.The monetary cost to Ukraine when it could least afford it is disgusting-- but the sheer disruption to life in Ukraine is enormous.
One thing I am absoloutely sure of is that Russia and Russians are going to rue the day Putin decided to invade on the Crimean Ukraine.So be very clear--there will be no winners from that invasion or the one being attempted now.
If Ukraine is able to escape the clutches of Putins new Soviet state-- Ukrainians will have a real future and a chance at a proper life and society-- and that is something Russians will never have as long as Putinism attempts to turn back the clock and allows the crooks,thieves,liars to prevail in  power in Russia.


Quoting from link--
"- Dnipropetrovsk region remains an island of stability in the southeast. How your team manages to thwart the efforts of separatists and maintain order in the area?

- In contrast to our neighbors, we did not miss the moment. After coming to power began to systematically deal with the necessary work. Do not want to say that the leadership of the neighboring regions do not. But we were able to take the necessary measures in time. "



http://news.liga.net/interview/politics/1458890-boris_filatov_my_razrushili_plany_putina_na_dnepropetrovsk.htm

ps   if anyone has a problem translating this--pm me and I will send translated article-- it is worth reading as it covers a lot of current issues.
ps2-- forum has requested I do not post whole articles--regardless of relevance or potential importance-- it seems some are happier with nonsensical fools satisfying their ego's. :wallbash:
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 12:45:58 AM by JayH »
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #992 on: April 24, 2014, 04:43:00 AM »
At least the replies are gradually getting shorter...

Then you best read what *I* wrote. The oath provided to you in the post was *in addition to* (complimentary] complementary - secondary) to what was the primary intent of your request...

There...fixed that for you.  Thanks, by the way.
 
There is NO contradiction.

Article 111 is the State's (Ukraine) provision to ensure the integrity and protection of its Constitution and governance by affording itself a legal way to remove the President from power and service through the process of impeachment. Right of Immunity is given to the President during the term of authority *UNLESS* just cause for impeachment i.e. if proven and convicted of treason or criminality.

So where in Article 105 does it state that immunity is given UNLESS etc?  This is the very point I've been trying to make through several posts, and which you can't grasp.  Although it would seem logical, there is nothing in what you've quoted of 105 to show this and, as I can't read Ukrainian (and I'm not willing to trust an online translator over something so fundamental), I would be happy to see an English translation from one of our UW.

Offline BillyB

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #993 on: April 24, 2014, 05:32:36 AM »

 
So where in Article 105 does it state that immunity is given UNLESS etc?  This is the very point I've been trying to make through several posts, and which you can't grasp.  Although it would seem logical, there is nothing in what you've quoted of 105 to show this and, as I can't read Ukrainian (and I'm not willing to trust an online translator over something so fundamental), I would be happy to see an English translation from one of our UW.


Anotherkiwi, I've cut and past article 105 below. The language is clear. According to the first sentence Yanukovych lost his immunity when he was ousted from the office he held. The last sentence means Yanukovych can keep his "title" for life unless he was impeached. Title simply goes in front of his name when addressing him, doesn't mean he keeps the job and the immunity for life. If he ever comes back to Ukraine, he will be tried, impeached, and imprisoned and no Ukrainian will ever be obligated to address him as President again as he sits behind bars.


Some people want Yanukovych to be President so they keep referring to article 111 as an argument he was illegally impeached. Article 111 shouldn't even be discussed and people are wasting a massive amount of time arguing about an impeachment that never happened. An impeachment bill was introduced by a pissed off lawmaker but was never entertained so there was never a vote in the Rada to impeach Yanukovych. Yanukovych was ousted the next day because he failed to perform his duties. The parliament didn't violate the constitution since the constitution never stated 3/4 is needed for a vote for someone who fails to show up for work. Even our constitutions doesn't cover everything and when issues pop up that aren't covered, the nation doesn't stop functioning. Lawmakers have the right to take actions and the courts can review those actions. Even Putin has stop calling Yanukovych a president. Some people need to let it go.


Article 105


The President of Ukraine enjoys the right of immunity during the term of authority.


Persons guilty of offending the honor and dignity of the President of Ukraine are brought to responsibility on the basis of the law.


The title of President of Ukraine is protected by law and is reserved for the President for life, unless the President of Ukraine has been removed from office by the procedure of impeachment.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline fathertime

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Re: Boris Filatov: We destroyed Putin's plans to Dnepropetrovsk
« Reply #994 on: April 24, 2014, 06:41:08 AM »

            While I am at it-- there is no "win-win" here for anybody--over Crimean invasion--or the invasion Russia is attempting of mainland Ukraine. At a tenuous time in Ukraine's history the government needed to be able to get on with governing-- undoing the the damage of Yanukovych  and cronies-- setting a path to the future.Instead-- Ukraine is engrossed in a battle to save their nationhood.It is totally contemptible behaviour from Russia-- from any nation-- but one most in Ukraine considered a close friend or family member it is extreme.The monetary cost to Ukraine when it could least afford it is disgusting-- but the sheer disruption to life in Ukraine is enormous.
One thing I am absoloutely sure of is that Russia and Russians are going to rue the day Putin decided to invade on the Crimean Ukraine.So be very clear--there will be no winners from that invasion or the one being attempted now.
If Ukraine is able to escape the clutches of Putins new Soviet state-- Ukrainians will have a real future and a chance at a proper life and society-- and that is something Russians will never have as long as Putinism attempts to turn back the clock and allows the crooks,thieves,liars to prevail in  power in Russia.


Hey Jay,


As long as there isn't a bloody civil war or large unwelcome invasion from Russia, then there is potential for each side getting what much of what it wants.  If that were to occur, then both sides could leave satisfied enough.   


One thing that is unfortunate is the temporary 'representatives' of Ukraine probably can't come to a bargaining table with any sort of mandate....Perhaps when they have their election they can bring somebody to the table that can make decisions that will have long lasting implications.  We shall see what those decisions/agreements wind up being. 

Fathertime!
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Muzh

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #995 on: April 24, 2014, 06:58:32 AM »
There are thousands of Crimeans Russian Special Forces that left Crimea in Donetsk region now in order to help everything happen.

There, fixed trhat for you.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #996 on: April 24, 2014, 08:08:59 AM »
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #997 on: April 24, 2014, 08:13:44 AM »
There are thousands of Crimeans in Donetsk region now in order to help everything happen.

Heh
 
It seems some of these boys are having a little difficulty with the local authorities
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline GQBlues

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #998 on: April 24, 2014, 09:23:46 AM »
At least the replies are gradually getting shorter...

There...fixed that for you.  Thanks, by the way....
 

No. Thank you!

I often forget the simple exercise when dealing with these two words.

"The generous complimentary wine was a nice complement to our delicious meal"

Sandro, Muzh, Gator, FP, Boethius? Thoughts?
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Offline BillyB

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #999 on: April 24, 2014, 10:47:49 AM »


Russia started army and air force drills at Ukraine border in response to a few pro Russians dying last night. Drills may be used to scare Ukraine into backing off or a disguise for the initial mobilization of an invasion.


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/25/world/europe/ukraine-crisis.html?_r=0
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

 

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