Your Wife, and His Potential Fiancee

[Photo Guy]

I think it would be fantabulous, if the Russian/Ukrainian wives of 'foreign' guys, would offer their services as women who can provide an outside opinion of a guy's potential fiancee, through phone calls with the guy's gal. Who would be willing to do this? This kind of thing would be much appreciated and extremely valuable in helping to guide a couple or individual through the process. I haven't read that much here at RWD, but Jet's post has piqued  my interest, for sure. What do you think?
-doug, not being sarcastic

[START2]

Doug,   What's up with the red circle with a slash through it on L's face?

[Photo Guy]

The 'Not Allowed' symbol, is a visual reminder to me, that I should be reconsidering my feelings about her. It might be prudent for me to disconnect from her for a few days, based on the ideas thrown at me in the last day or two. I've been told that I am presently unrealistic and foolishly hopeful about the outcome of my correspondence with this fine lady. Maybe that's true. I need to mull it over and reevaluate the situation. Maybe she's not the amazing person she seems to be, through translated conversations and emails. I have to think about why it would be so bad to spend three months living with her here in my home city, in order to make such a huge decision that will affect the rest of my life. The red symbol makes me question my own decisions. The symbol also poses the question for others: Should I cross her out and write her off? And if not, how much of a mistake is it to make the decision to bring her over on a K-1. My gut tells me it's not a mistake. The red symbol means I'm questioning what I'm doing with her. It's a question for you out there, too. (I mean that as food for thought. I'll be making any BIG decisions on my own)

My problem is I don't see the advice and rules here as being clearly correct. This is what I mean:

1- There are guys who spend very little time searching,
including face time, and yet have ended up in happy marriages.
2- There are guys who spend very little time searching,
including face time, and end up in a bad relationship.
3- There are guys who spend lots of time searching,
including lots of face time, and end up in happy marriages.
4- There are guys who spend lots of time searching,
and end up not finding a wife, or in unhappy relationships.

These are the four basic stories that I've read here at RWD. I guess the story I hope to conform to is story #1. I have doubts about it, because a bunch of experienced guys are telling me that I should pursue a strategy that conforms to #3. This must mean that the odds of success for #3 is much greater than for #1. I don't know. Is that true? Are my gut feelings about Larisa, off-base? What are the odds of story #1 happening with me?

Who has success conforming to story #1? Anyone? Doudis?
Timmy? These are just things I'm mulling over right now.
-Doug  

[Admin]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

I think it would be fantabulous, if the Russian/Ukrainian wives of 'foreign' guys, would offer their services as women who can provide an outside opinion of a guy's potential fiancee, through phone calls with the guy's gal. Who would be willing to do this? This kind of thing would be much appreciated and extremely valuable in helping to guide a couple or individual through the process. I haven't read that much here at RWD, but Jet's post has piqued  my interest, for sure. What do you think?
-doug, not being sarcastic

Doug,

This actually happens quite a lot - just on an informal basis. I know Olya has offered to help guys from time to time with phone translations, or some other such assistance. As she gets to know the woman a bit, she offers her perspectives to the guy - so that he has a clearer understanding of what he/they are getting into. There was one case in which she offered her rather low opinion of the guy to the girl as well - it cuts both ways.

Best bet is to open a friendly dialogue with some of the married RWD members, and as you get to know them, if the opportunity/need for assistance comes along, things can be worked out.

FWIW

- Dan

[Admin]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

My problem is I don't see the advice and rules here as being clearly correct. This is what I mean:

1- There are guys who spend very little time searching,
including face time, and yet have ended up in happy marriages.
2- There are guys who spend very little time searching,
including face time, and end up in a bad relationship.
3- There are guys who spend lots of time searching,
including lots of face time, and end up in happy marriages.
4- There are guys who spend lots of time searching,
and end up not finding a wife, or in unhappy relationships.

These are the four basic stories that I've read here at RWD. I guess the story I hope to conform to is story #1. I have doubts about it, because a bunch of experienced guys are telling me that I should pursue a strategy that conforms to #3. This must mean that the odds of success for #3 is much greater than for #1. I don't know. Is that true? Are my gut feelings about Larisa, off-base? What are the odds of story #1 happening with me?

Who has success conforming to story #1? Anyone? Doudis?
Timmy? These are just things I'm mulling over right now.
-Doug  

Depends on what you mean by "searching." A little story. Olya had been here for maybe a few months in the summer of 2001 when we were invited to a gathering of guys who were interested in meeting women from the FSU. I was one of only two married couples there. Maybe a dozen guys showed up altogether. One of the guys seemed nice enough, and Olya and I had talked about the prospect of setting someone up with her best friend in Ukraine. After some talking - that is exactly what we did. This guy spent very little time "searching" - but he did make about half a dozen trips over to Ukraine, and spent considerable time in-country with Valya and her daughter before making the final decision to marry her. They have been in this country for more than a year now - and things can be a bit rocky - primarily owing to the teenage daughter - but they seem to be doing pretty well.

Not quite the story you were asking about - but if you want to, I can get you in touch with Norm to ask him more.

- Dan

[catzenmouse]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

Who has success conforming to story #1? Anyone? Doudis?
Timmy? These are just things I'm mulling over right now.
-Doug  

Well we've been married for 10 months now and it has gotten better each and every month. But I consider this a fluke and the fact that I really did win the lottery. I met Elena three or 4 days before I was ready to head out of country. This was in May, I would not be able to go back to Russia for almost a year. We did not have much e-mail contact but talked on the phone for hours at a time several times a week. We talked about how big a chance we would be taking with each other if we did the K1 and that we would not really know about each other until we had a lot of 24/7 time together but we knew that we had very good chemistry together and wanted the same things in life so we decided to give it a shot with the K1. We both believed that we wanted to spend our lives together but also knew that we were taking a big risk with this line of thinking. For us it worked out as we were better together than we thought we would be. It has not been all peaches and cream. We've had problems but nothing that even comes close to being called a fight. The biggest problem still is that she misses her family and culture. I would in no way, shape, or form recommend that ANYONE follow my steps here but like I said, I won the lottery here.

You've gotten a lot of good advice here, some of a bit harsh but we need to hear that too so take it for what it is and not as a cut and you will get something good out of it.

Ken

[dostogirl]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

I think it would be fantabulous, if the Russian/Ukrainian wives of 'foreign' guys, would offer their services as women who can provide an outside opinion of a guy's potential fiancee, through phone calls with the guy's gal.

I don't think it's a good idea. The thing that may come out of such a phone converstaion is that the foreign wife may like the girl on the phone, but it doesn't mean the girl on the phone will be a good match to you. It's only for you to decide.

[Jack]

Photoguy, as Dan mentioned their are many Russian/Ukraine ladies here in the states that are willing to help new ladies who have just arrived. My ex-Natalia helped a lot of ladies who had just arrived and needed help or just someone to talk to. Even today Natalia would still be more than happy to help any new lady who had questions or needed help.
 
I have missed alot of what has been happening on RWD over the past few months but I think I have read enough to see that maybe your situation has changed a little? Don't know for sure but feel free to PM if you would like. As I recall the lady you met was like the first and only Russian woman you met and you fell for her and was sure she was the one, is that about right? Very seldom does such a case work out where the two were really compatible. If you two are putting some distance between the relationship it is probably the best thing that could happen to you.
 
For those who meet one, marry one and she was the very best Russian woman for him, well he should indeed consider himself a lucky man. Oh sure it does happen, their are those out there who met under this same situation and have had a good marriage, but they are the exception, not the norm. Most men (and women) have to meet many potential mates before finding the right one.
 
If I met three ladies and choose the best from those three I wonder how truly compatible woman I was able to pick. If I were to meet 10 ladies I might find someone a little more compatible than the one I choose from the best of the three. If I were to meet 20 ladies, I might find someone even more compatible.  Ok, I see what your going to say next, where do you draw the line? How many ladies is to many to meet in trying to find the right one?
 
I don't think anyone knows the answer to that, well camergurl probably does as he knows everything, but most everyone else would not know the answer to that. The best answer I can tell you is this, once a man has gotten some experience with Russian women, once he has meet several Russian women, then I say when he meets her he will know. It's hard for a man to meet 3 Russian ladies or 7 Russian ladies and be able to say that. Usually best for a man to take his time, meet many ladies with not being pressured for time or to make a rush decision. And once a man has met several Russian ladies, becomes educated as to the ways of Russian woman, once a man has reached this plateau I think it is safe to say, "When you met her, you will know".
 
Best of luck to you Photo Guy.
 

[RacerX]

I think it would be a very bad idea and here's why:  the relative social status, education, age, etc., would strongly bias any advice you might receive.  For example, my wife thinks [no flaming, PLEASE] that Ukrainian women are in general, "simple village girls."  If she talked with a 20 yo girl with only the equivalent of a high-school education, she would likewise be very condescending.  OTOH, she, like many RW is very intuitive and can spot a "ringer" within seconds of talking with her.

The basic problem is that she, OK make that us, feel that many men are happy with simple village girls.  Without question, such girls are very grateful to be in the USA and will  not complain (at least for the first few years) to the slightest degree about your messy home/your sh!t-box car/your backwoods town/etc.  I can't tell you how many stories I have read here and on the other board that confirms this hypothesis.  It's difficult to be overly judgmental about such matches, since they may have little distinction between what you see in your own backyard - but if you ask the "wrong" RW about it, she won't have much compassion on giving you a piece of her mind, right or wrong.

Think of it this way: would you call one of your buddy's wives and ask them their impression of your new g/f?  

For me, this is an arena best left to the professionals - RW who do this for a living.  They are apt to be much more clinical and impersonal, and to offer advice not tainted by their social situation.

Anyway, it's just MHO.

[Leslie]

Doug,

If you want an experienced second opinion from a russian woman try here -

http://www.lenhenrikson.com/elena/Index.htm

I actually used Lena when I was trying to sort out my "relationship" (which never existed except in my own imagination)  with a woman called Nelya from Kherson.  Lena is a christian and a good woman.

 

[Photo Guy]

Hey, thanks to everyone for your input! I think it's a fool who doesn't consider outside points of view. I'm seriously thinking about all of your suggestions.  

[Jet]

Dostogirl and RacerX bring up 2 VERY valid points of concern, but on "the other side of the coin" is the possibility that a fiancee may tell things to the wife, that she won't tell to her man.

Hard to believe, but I put one woman in touch with my wife at her California fiance's request and this woman over time, confided that she was milking the guy for cash and worldwide vacations while entertaining a live-in Russian boyfriend when the fiance was stateside. The story played out much like Riverwind's tale in the other thread. He ignored the warnings, she came here and the relationship lasted exactly 20 days (luckily for him she returned to Russia). She is 41, an absolute knockout (looks 25, no exaggeration), ex wife of a New-Russian, and currently has another clown "on the hook" for a second try at life in the states. Interestingly, like RacerX warned, Liliya didn't really like this woman, and yet the woman really took to Lil and even now calls her here in the US from time to time.

Another recent situation when my wife spoke to the fiancee of a close friend of mine, she learned some really disturbing things about the child, which my buddy could NOT have understood unless he was fluent in Russian as well as getting some unsettling insight into probable mental illness of the fiancee. In one conversation they had, the 11yo daughter was yelling in the background something which roughly translated to "Shut up and quit wasting our precious air with your idiotic ramblings, bitch!" My buddy, took Liliya's concerns into consideration but decided to continue anyway "just to be sure" he wasn't making a mistake by letting her go. On the night before the K-1 embassy interview, the 11yo threw an 8" chef's knife across the kitchen, deeply cutting her mother from the right eyelid through the forehead to above the hairline and then exclaimed something to the effect of "There, now no man will ever look at you again, and I will have you all to myself!" This woman actually received the visa but thankfully my buddy was smart enough to leave her behind.

[andrewfi]

I think RacerX is right, if a person 'assesses' another person to establish their suitability then that assessment is bound to be coloured by the assessor's own prejudices and beliefs - not just about the woman, but also the man.

As I wrote in another thread, giving credence to anther person's advice is a great way of choosing the right person... for the assessor.

In the end, it comes down to this, if you can't do it yourself, don't do it. Essentially, I think Jack is saying the same thing, because, in the end, the only way to be able to make one's own choice is through knowledge. Meet enugh, date enough, fall in love (and out) enough and i nthe end, one comes to know. For sure though, much of my experience with women from my own culture was invalidated by what I have learned over the past five or six years.

If you are going to work with a third party as counsellor, IMHO you need to be able to have your counsellor answer VERY specific questions about specific points about attitude, or background. Just allowing two people to have a natter for half an hour and then report back impressions is no good at all. The downside is that in order to make that specification, one needs a lot of knowledge about both the person you seek and yourself - if one actually knew enough about these things, then the use of a third party would be pretty much moot anyway!

I still learn - had a very interesting chat with a friend yesterday about how things worked for him and his wife and how he saw relationship dynamics in respect of fidelity that filled in a few new spots. (I think also that he gets something from me...)

[Jet]

Andrew also brings up some valid points, one thing that may have been lost in this discussion is that for all the women my wife has been in contact with, the premise has never been that of an "evaluation" of the woman's character, sincerity, motives, or compatability. It has always been of an instructional nature regarding the specifics of the process and/or what can reasonably be expected as far as the woman's adjustment to life abroad. Liliya is a math/science teacher, not a doctor or therapist. In the end, each prospective groom has to make the "assesment" for himself. Any impressions she may pass along are simply backup to confirm or refute what he already knows . 

[BC]

Having others chip in to help evaluate, give perspective and general impressions is good, but doing this for a couple that that cannot communicate to begin with will just be a crutch to get the relationship kick started. 

I just could not imagine marrying a woman where communication was severly limited.  There would not be enough person to person understanding to justify such a serious bond. 

A few years back I met a woman where the initial chemistry was quite fantastic, she was one of the prettiest and most sexy women I have encountered.  Unfortunately we had no common language and could only haphazardly communicate.  We did end up in bed, but let me tell you - without any way to express our true needs and desires the experience was quite lacking and was little more than I imagine I could have with a 19.95 Missy Inflatable. 

We giggled and laughed after this experience then parted ways, both much wiser than we were before. Certainly wise enough not to run off get married.

Don't run 'round with testicles hanging on your ears.. It not only looks stupid, it IS as stupid as stupid can be.

You simply do not have a relationship until you can communicate without crutches, period.

'..we got married and then got to know each other'.. yeah right.

 

 

[Photo Guy]

You are saying that your lack of verbal communication had a negative impact on your ability to have good sex with her, and compared it to sex with an inflatable doll. That was your ultimate conclusion about her? Do you know Albert?

[Jet]

Photoguy,

Either you're being really sarcastic or you missed the point completely. What BC is saying is what every married member will tell you:

Communication is the single most important aspect of a successful relationship.

Furthermore, in a cross cultural relationship it is absolutely imperative that the person moving to the new country makes learning the new language their top priority.

[Bruno]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

You are saying that your lack of verbal communication had a negative impact on your ability to have good sex with her, and compared it to sex with an inflatable doll. That was your ultimate conclusion about her? Do you know Albert?

Doug, why in your reply to BC, you need make some attack against Albert... He is what he is but he have nothing to make with your fight here...

I am surprised of something so low from you

It is not the "no olds-barred" section, so try to moderate yourself. And don't involve people who have not yet reply or attack you on these topic.

[Photo Guy]

Sure, that goes without saying. She's been taking English lessons with a private tutor. I agree.
BC's example was... not very tasteful.

[BC]

Contempt prior to investigation Photo.. You have a very bad habit of this.

Not ability, but all considered quite 'functional' and not nearly as fulfilling as it could have been had we been able to fully express ourselves to find mutual ways of heightening the experience (refering to 'pillow talk' and  defining mutual limits.. not just moaning).

Had nothing to do with her at all.

Of course if you're a 'grunt and roll' type and she won't flip out regardless of where you're pokin then all's well.

Sad situation when more investigative effort is made to evaluate and understand the available options when buying cars.  Look at a new car broschure written in Russian and you will see what I mean.. how much will you really understand besides the pictures and that you can identify the various parts?

Yeah.. and for sure you would at least test drive the car before handing over the check.

[Photo Guy]

I am not having a good day. I've been called a desperate loser today. Today, a friend's wife changed her mind about speaking with Larisa. Another person gave me a nice example about how bad communication led to bad sex. None of this is very cheerful. Most of the time I am an upbeat happy-go-lucky kind of guy. This place doesn't suit me. I apologize for my presence, my sarcasm, my obnoxious statements, and my unending devotion to that fine woman.  Later...  

[Bruno]

[user=134]Photo Guy[/user] wrote:

I am not having a good day. I've been called a desperate loser today. Today, a friend's wife changed her mind about speaking with Larisa. Another person gave me a nice example about how bad communication led to bad sex. None of this is very cheerful. Most of the time I am an upbeat happy-go-lucky kind of guy. This place doesn't suit me. I apologize for my presence, my sarcasm, my obnoxious statements, and my unending devotion to that fine woman. Later...

Doug, it is not a problem about this place suit you or not... you cannot escape the real life and dream to life in other planne of existence... the reality can always remind you his painfull law...

If don't see something wrong with Larisa or your relation but you are in the very early stage of the dating process... find in the advice of other no the attack but what you can use for find your own way... and i can certify you that the way to the perfect relation is full of black hole...

Nobody can know if you will fall in some of these hole or not... but other indicate you possible hole... maybe you will not find them on your way but in anycase you find them, you know them and will be able to go over... until the final success...

People give you example, personal experience... nothing say that they pass to you, nobody know that you will know so terrible situation... but don't see the possible danger is a risk in itself... knowing the possible danger allow you to build new strategie able to remove these danger... don't take you dreamed relation for the reality... you will only know the reality of your relation with L in several year...

Really, i don't care if you have kiss or not L, if you sleep or not with her... the only problem i see is that you see your starting relation like something strong... a long and never ending relation ask several year of work with your partner to build it... not one kiss, not one night sex, not the 3 month from a K1, not a marriage can change something to this... time, very long time is needed before have something strong... a succesful relation is a life work...

Allow some doubt in your relation, these doubt can help you for remove the possible bodytrap... have some doubt is not weakness... people without doubt are fool...

It seem that you have your own destiny and that you can change nothing... not true, it is by making your own decision that your build a way to your destiny... here, religious people say : "Help first yourself and after God will help you"...  

 

[BC]

That's the problem with shiny armor.. gets real heavy very quickly.

Knights never ever got on their big horses alone or were they able to stand without assistance after getting thrown.

Take your lumps while standing on firm ground.

Sure you feel a bit beat up right now but all we are really saying is look twice, three times or as many times as necessary before crossing the freeway. Nobody likes seeing road kill.

[KenC]

BC,

Boy, you're hot today!  First the buying the car analogy and now this road kill thing.  Very well said.

KenC

[Son of Clyde]

What would be a good reason not to do the K1?

She could be a great actress for 90 days?

Maybe if you bring her here and plan the wedding on the 89th day it will give you the "face time" you need to make the final decision. If she is acting during thiose 89 days maybe there will be an air of desperation if she realizes you are waiting until the last possible moment.

I don't know what a "scammer" looks like, there are all ages, shapes and sizes. You were harassed about her not kissing you (the first red flag) but there could be an explanation for it. Maybe you should share a pm with Maxx because he can give you invaluable information and you will not feel belittled by it.

[KenC]

Clyde,

The possibility of Larisa being a scammer, is but only one of the many potential problems in marrying a stranger.  Most of us here are just attempting to persuade Photo to make at least a second trip before bringing his gal here. The ramifications of a hasty K-1 cuts both sides, not just Photos world.

KenC

[Son of Clyde]

Ken, I agree with you but maybe Photo Guy, if he decides to bring her here, can get to know her much better without taking multiple trips. And he can see her reaction to the US. There is no way of knowing this unless she is actually here.

[Turboguy]

I agree with Clyde.   As long as he does not marry her before he kisses her I think it is a good way to go.   This way they can see how they react together in the environment where they will be spending the rest of thier lives.   What is to gain by making another trip.  Maybe a little necking or more but there is plenty of time for that here.   I think he wold waste a lot of time and money and learn far less by going back to visit her again at this point than he will by just waiting a few months till she is here.

[andrewfi]

The K1 visa is not a trial period though and the 90 days spent in the US will be more than enough to thoroughly mess up Larisa's life if (when) she returns home. If he chooses to follow the 89th day marriage strateg, I trust he has in place a plan to help her reintegrate into her home country if she needs to return. Sadly, given Doug's self stated attitude toward life, I kinda think that this might be a little unlikely, even if he could afford it.

If she can afford a three month holiday and to reinsert herself into her previous life then the strategy might be fine. sadly, if she has a job and (or) home, she will likely have lost both before she even got her bags packed and collected her visa.

[Turboguy]

Hopefully these are things she thought about before making the commitment to do the K-1 visa with Doug.    It seems to me that she is coming her knowing that she needs to make Doug feel that they will be happy together and Doug is inviting her knowing that she is making sacrifices and hopefully both will try and make good and happy couple. 

Are you picking up some lack of good faith between them that I am missing?

[andrewfi]

No, not a lack of good faith, at least not on Doug's part, except in so far as he appears woefully unprepared for the next part of his life.

Here is what I really think...

1) Doug has fantasised a barely existant relationship with a woman that he barely knows into the love of his life.

2) Larisa seems willing to go along with him, but she was certainly unable to bring herself to allow physical intimacy.

3) Doug seems to have made no contingency plans for anything less than the full on 'roses and bluebirds' scenario and from what he has told us of his lifestyle, that makes sense (for him).

Now, unless the woman has the intellect of a brass doorstop, she knows that her relationship with Doug is virtually non-existant and that she is not particularly attracted to him; so I find myself wondering why she is willing to go along with this charade.

My feeling is that, if genuine, she may actually not be blessed with any real kind of cognitive ability. Doug would have no way of knowing as he can not communicate with her anyway and (sorry Doug) he is not the sharpest tool on the workbench.

If she is blessed with any kind of intellect beyond that required to keep a door open, then she is aware of what she has and is planning for a life beyond her mule. From what we have seen, unless this girl scrubs up really well, she is lucky to have found anyone to take her away, she will not be wanting to miss the opportunity for a small matter of liking the man she is allowing herself to marry.

Of course, we will not know the outcome and so all this is speculation, but I would be willing to make a small wager on the outcome of any relationship between the two. This is hardly the first case we have seen with not dissimilar circumstances.

[Turboguy]

Andrewfin, I am beginning to think we should be discussing this in the no holds barred section.  Personallly I can't believe anyone would say the things you do in the way you do, or any way at all for that matter,  but back to the point it seems to me you are speculating a lot of trying to come up with some imaginative reasoning so you have an excuse to be in attack mode.  Personally I think people would gain a lot more from these discussions if they were done with a little more civility and logic. 

1.  Their relationship has continued with long phone conversatons.  It might not keep the bed warm but you can build a relationship that way.

2.   They have only had a few days together.  I am sure if she comes here and is cold and distant she will be dealing with Jet Lag a second time sooner than she would otherwise.

3.  If it makes sense to him that should be good enough.  His contgincy plans are no concern of yours or mine other than what he chooses to share with us and I don't remember that topic.  You are speculating here (again)

Now, unless the woman has the intellect of a brass doorstop, she knows that her relationship with Doug is virtually non-existant and that she is not particularly attracted to him; so I find myself wondering why she is willing to go along with this charade.

Humm, maybe you should go into the mind reading business.  Tell me something, how do you know she is not attracted to him,  Because they didn't kiss?  Maybe she thinks he is wonderful but she is afraid her breath is bad.  Maybe she is afraid he won't like her kisses,  maybe she is shy.  If she wasn't attracted to him why would she want to do all that disruption you talked about before.  It seems more logical to me that she is attracted to him.   That would even explain why she was going along with this charade.

If she is blessed with any kind of intellect beyond that required to keep a door open, then she is aware of what she has and is planning for a life beyond her mule. From what we have seen, unless this girl scrubs up really well, she is lucky to have found anyone to take her away, she will not be wanting to miss the opportunity for a small matter of liking the man she is allowing herself to marry

You must have a fixation with doors.   Every example uses something connected with a door.   Never mind.  I don't want to even comment on what I think of this comment and a few of the others as well.  

Perhaps I would have a lot of hesitation getting engaged to a girl I had never kissed.  That is my choice.  Doug is entitled to his, just as you are. I am sure there are circumstances where I could do exactly that and not think about it but he was there and could measure the chemistry or lack of it much better than you and I and if he is happy with the choices he has made that is the important thing.

[andrewfi]

If you read the above, you will note that what I wrote is largely speculation, but based entirely upon what we have been told by Doug, upon the pictures taken by him and also, upon a fair degree of personal knowledge. There is nothing wrong with drawing inference from other similar situations, we all do it all the time.

Do we need to see all the letters to make out the phrase? As we all know from seeing 'Wheel of Fortune' some players need to have all the letters revealed before making the correct answer, some need to see just a few. I make no comment upon Doug's ability to play the inferential analysis game, but I would happily take the small wager previously mentioned.

If we believe that relationships are made by interpreted phone calls and translated emails then I understand the high and rapid failure rate of relationships cross cultural relationships. If you believe that it is OK to bring a person to a country for a trial period, without a clear plan in case of a negative outcome than we have to agree to differ. If you think that one can infer that a person is physically attracted to another when close physical contact was withheld then again, we would have to disagree.

Personally, I do not think that Larisa is as dim as she might be characterised and hence I very strongly think that Doug should make subsequent visits to strengthen his relationship. But yes, there are people for whom time is, in one way or another, the essence and thus short cuts are taken, reality is not looked at and the more objective input of others goes unheeded.

I wish the guy and his penfriend all the happiness, but at the same time, I know that happiness and good luck are not accidents, they come as a result of work. As Alan McDiarmid, the American Noble prize winner wrote: "I am a very lucky person and the harder I work the luckier I seem to be."

[Turboguy]

 but based entirely upon what we have been told by Doug, upon the pictures taken by him

The pictures I have seen show a lot of warmth between them.

I understand the high and rapid failure rate of relationships cross cultural relationships. 

Show me some real statisics.  I think I see as more successess than failures but I have never seen reliable statistics, unless you wan't to call the ones on the home pages of EC and AFA that.

If you believe that it is OK to bring a person to a country for a trial period, without a clear plan in case of a negative outcome than we have to agree to differ.

I agree that is something that needs to be talked about in advance but how do you know they have not talked about it and do not have a plan?  

I very strongly think that Doug should make subsequent visits.

At this point it would seem a little like closing the barn door after the animals have gotten out.    She should have her visa in 6 weeks.   If she is ready to come and they have the plans for what happens in any possibility what would be the use.

but I would be willing to make a small wager on the outcome of any relationship between the two. This is hardly the first case we have seen with not dissimilar circumstances.

I might take you up on that.  From your posts I am assuming small to you is a few thousand.  If we can get someone neutral to hold the cash such as clyde or Jet I think a bet could be fun.

[Son of Clyde]

I did see something strange in her photo but not that she is unattractive or mean. I see an intensity in the way she looks which may also be part of her personality. She looks like the strong willed, Russian woman who may have had a difficult life and want more for herself, and a brighter future. She needs to also want more for Doug's life and be willing to adjust to a life here with Doug. I think a visit to the US will maybe show if she is genuine or not.

[Bruno]

Now, unless the woman has the intellect of a brass doorstop, she knows that her relationship with Doug is virtually non-existant and that she is not particularly attracted to him; so I find myself wondering why she is willing to go along with this charade.

Humm, maybe you should go into the mind reading business.  Tell me something, how do you know she is not attracted to him,  Because they didn't kiss?  Maybe she thinks he is wonderful but she is afraid her breath is bad.  Maybe she is afraid he won't like her kisses,  maybe she is shy.  If she wasn't attracted to him why would she want to do all that disruption you talked about before.  It seems more logical to me that she is attracted to him.   That would even explain why she was going along with this charade.

I am very curious... some think that she have no real interest because she have not kiss...

And what some can think when she have sleep with him... maybe something like "she is a whore, if she sleep so fast with you, she sleep with everybody"...

For have a good view of the situation, we miss one important part here... the point of view from L... How are we able to judge someone that we don't know...

My first wife have kiss me the morning of the second day... the night of the second day, we was together in bed... so, in theory, she was a woman who show in interest... yes, true... She have show her interest... but not her interest in me like i have think... it was her interest to receive the green card...

Until now, from what we know, we cannot say something over L... I remember that some have call L a whore, that she have lie about the beautician convention... but when Doug have visit her, he have know that she have say the true and that some people here was wrong...

So, in place of attack L, give only advice to Doug... general advice... give him the tool needed for himself see if his relation is possible or not...

 

[KenC]

Turbo,

You know I have to agree with you that it is Doug's decision and he will have to face the out come of his actions.  He has clearly stated that he "will go with the flow" whatever the outcome.  Fine.  Great for Doug as he is willingly able to accept the potential failure of this relationship. 

But what about Larisa?  Let's assume for the moment that she doesn't have a hidden agenda.  Let's assume she has fallen head over heels for Doug.  She uproots her life and comes to America with full intentions of living happily ever after.  How does she put her life back together should things go south?  Does she know that Doug is "going with the flow"?  How is it that her potential humiliation of returning to Ukraine not a factor in all of this?

The other side of the previous assumptions is that she is playing Doug and does have another agenda.  Maybe she will file a DV charge before he gets his first kiss!

A lot of what we have written are based on our assumptions because Doug chooses to avoid the difficult questions or believes his own rewritten history.  What I have witnessed here is a man that came back from Ukraine dazed and confused about his meeting with one woman.  "Ambivalent" was the word Doug used to describe Larisa's attitude towards him.  Now he claims there was love in her eyes and things couldn't have gone better.  Only two things have happened since that time.  #1 Doug has fantasized his meeting of Larisa into being a chapter out some Harliquin novel  and #2 Larisa has become the perfect woman due to the attacks made on her here.  In both cases, they are a figment of Doug's over active imagination.

Some of the posts here and elsewhere have been more than a bit rough on Doug.  The reason for that is that Doug deflects the more subtle and gentle suggestions and his willingness to offer his own sage advice on women.  He is desperate to make this relationship work and desperate people do not usually make rational decisions.

KenC

[andrewfi]

Turboguy, If I were as rich as you, a few thousand dollars would perhaps be small. As I have written before, I have a good income by local standards and am making my own way here. I am quite proud of that, coz there ain't many doing it...

Doug should go before she comes over because when she gets here it could be too late. If what the doom mongers tell about DV charges is correct, he could be in trouble within days. At least over there he gets to learn something about her with the benefit of interpreters. He will have little help when they are in the US. How is an average sorta guy going to get to the bottom of whatever she migbe doing, until the locks are changed on his house?

It is easy to say that things will work out, I wonder just how many people really think of the practicalities before they let Harry Hormone take over. As to what we know or do not know about what Doug has planned, well, he  has told us. He is going to let things take their course. If that is enough for Doug, it is not enough for me and it should not have been for you - I trust it was not.

Just a small, teeny weeny question for you Turbo.

Would you entertain being engaged without even having kissed your fiancee?

Would her agreement to accept your money for the air fare be enough for you? Coz that is what you are suggesting, and from where I sit, knowing a little about the realities of what women are willing to (and do) do, I would suggest with all respect, that it is folly. The K1 explicitly assumes that a couple are coming to the US to plan and execute a wedding, it is not a trial period. Would you plan a wedding without being engaged?

See what happens when the questions are asked?

Did you ask the questions?

Were they answered?

What would have happened if the K1 for you was not a trial period?

I know this thread is not about you, but in the end, everyoine getting married, or planning to, goes through the same stuff and if the ducks ain't in a row things go wrong. They can still go wrong even when everything is done right, but just being one of life's gamblers and going with the flow as Doug said he intended to do is nuts. Anyone else who has emulated him is the same, whatever the outcome!

[RacerX]

Gentlemen:

Many of us often think about this process (bringing a RW to the US) in very traditional, or better stated, using the tools those before us have employed successfully.  In fact, however our "Plan A" is not the only way, and others have gainfully resorted to a "Plan B."

Plan B in the finest of Russian traditions (i.e., "screw the State") makes use of the less often explored K-1 visa loopholes.  

What some members have failed to realize is that RW are very conservative in their natural environment.  Those men who knowingly state: "if a RW likes you, you will know it," have without little uncertainly returned home with the equivalent of a Russian prostitute. [definition: a women who will have sex with you after a couple of meetings as a way of furthering her financial gain]. A couple of meetings is further extended to mean: you saw her on a couple of trips and felt somehow she was the one for you, language and cultural barriers be damned.

What Doug is doing is best characterized as the second way of going about this.  After his g/f arrives he will attempt to establish a real relationship with her.  According to US law he has 90 days to do this. IF it shows some promise, but no definitive conclusion is reached, nothing prevents him/her from pursuing a second K-1, or for that matter even more.

Furthermore, don't feel you must somehow stand up for his g/f like an older brother might do.  Odds are, either she will have the time of her life and depart with jewelry, a new wardrobe, and nice travel memories, or she will simply ask her boss for a often granted extension of her vacation time and return to her mundane and poorly paying job in the FSU, or both.  No harm, no foul.

It may not be how you would go about doing it, but it doesn't mean it's not a viable alternate.  c'est la vie or even more so: chacun à son goût!

[Jet]

Racer, I think you're off base.

Furthermore, don't feel you must somehow stand up for his g/f like an older brother might do. Odds are, either she will have the time of her life and depart with jewelry, a new wardrobe, and nice travel memories, or she will simply ask her boss for a often granted extension of her vacation time and return to her mundane and poorly paying job in the FSU, or both. No harm, no foul.

Your inexperience is showing again! The two possibilities you illustrated are indeed "no harm, no foul" scenarios, but there are half a dozen other possibilities that are FAR more likely, that don't end so neat and tidy. Any woman who agrees to uproot her life on a whim and leave everything she's ever known behind, either has a plan, or really does need looking out for.

[RacerX]

Geez, I am starting to sound like Andrew around here

Look, sorry if you took offense at my wording, and assure you I didn't mean it specifically at you or anyone else, but I find it odd that you felt it actually did apply.  The "compressed timeline factor" is pure bullsheet manufactured by horny AM who want to land their catch ASAP.  Show me a man who swayed the heart of a genuine RW by telling her; "sorry honey, but I only have a week, so you'll just have to 'put out' or it's off to the next woman!"  Perhaps I should have been more gentle in my selection of an appropriate moniker, but 'prostitute' seemed good... maybe 'easy girl' or 'adventurist' is kinder on the ears?

I beg to differ on your recollection of the "kick Doug" threads here and elsewhere.  Yes, most did imply that his g/f should be rolling in the hay with him, and with respect to what affection she demonstrated towards him - well I always give 45+ YO men a least a modicum of credit for knowing a little about life.

But just for interest since you say most have taken extraordinary measures to overcome language and cultural barriers: do you speak fluent Russian?  Have you lived in Russia for several years?  Or more likely, can you speak a handful of Russian words and have traveled for at most a couple of months in Russia as a tourist?  None of these will cut it when it comes to serious relationship building. :seething:

I am not sure what this mumbo-jumbo about I-129f's has to do with two people trying to develop a relationship within a very restrictive US policy that all people I have spoken to feel that serious modifications are needed.  I fully support a one k-1/fiancee policy, but that's just me, others may find a different route to happiness.

The stark reality in the vast majority of cases as we have seen here, is that the AM brings over a simple, very young, underemployed UW - [ever wonder why the emigration rate from Ukraine is nearly 3X of Russia?] who despite what she might tell her "petitioner" b/f will have the time of her life in America and be able to return to her homeland enriched in many ways. If you think for a second the FSUW hasn't carefully thought about a "back up plan," then, sir, it is you whose inexperience is showing.

[Voyageur]

RacerX,

I must admit that your line about FSU "prostitutes" got under my skin a bit also, when thinking about my wife. Certainly, I hold true the saying that "if a Russian woman likes you, you will know this". I have certainly found this to be true and time periods should not be part of this equation - because - in my experience - I knew this very well quickly.  Before meeting my present wife, I was engaged to a (younger) woman from Ukraine and brought her to the US on a K1 visa. Certainly, I could not tell determined if she liked me - which should have told me everything I needed to know. :huh: It is easy to see this in hindsight, that is for sure.

But now - if the present session of Congress is to get it's wish - my lifetime ration of K1 visas are completed. It is great that a combination of hard work and luck (or fate, as many FSU women believe) that I met my wife. It is so @#$@# great that our Congress will decide this for me. :X:X

Also, FWIW, I know only a few Russian words and my wife speaks English very well, so communication was never a problem for us.

[KenC]

The stark reality in the vast majority of cases as we have seen here, is that the AM brings over a simple, very young, underemployed UW - [ever wonder why the emigration rate from Ukraine is nearly 3X of Russia?] who despite what she might tell her "petitioner" b/f will have the time of her life in America and be able to return to her homeland enriched in many ways.

RacerX,

I know of only one case where the RW "played" the AM for the 90 day period and returned to Russia feeling "enriched." In that particular case, she really was more of a working girl and was in it totally for the monitary benifit and had no delusions of any affection or staying beyond the 90 days.  But she was not the typical example.  In every other case, the women were completely devastated and their lives were ruined.

KenC

[jb]

Back to the original premise of asking an established RW here to talk to, and make recommendations w/r/t the worthiness of a potential K-1'er.  I talked to my wife about this idea and after giving her the rundown on the "why" of it, she gave me an emphatic 'NO'.

Her reasoning is there is no way she could take that kind of responsibility for another person's life choices and still sleep at night.  Whether a couple chooses to marry or not, is their doing; they alone are responsible for making the effort to know if the future mate is suitable  Palming off the decision on a totally unknown by-stander is a cowardly way to cover one's tracks in the event of a melt down.  

She seems to think PhotoGuy needs to go back to school and learn some basics, he's behaving in a not grownup fashion if he thinks there's a magic bullet like this that will solve his problems.  She recommends not one, but several trips, to visit the pshrink.  Forget about going to the FSU at this time.  Everything she's read on this and the related threads indicate to her that he's not ready to marry anyone.  Especially to a woman as needy and desperate as he is himself.

[KenC]

jb,

Your wife is right.  It would be foolish to get involved at this point.  When I first read your post, I thought back to the many times Lena had offered to speak with RW for AM.  But in every case, it was in a budding relationship and not to a woman already in the K-1 process.  The requests all came during the weeding out process and more to determine if the lady had potential.  And that is why Photo's actions are so bizarre.  On one hand he knows Larisa well enough to be engaged and bring her here on a K-1, but on the other hand, he would like to get a second opinion on her from a complete stranger.  Huh?  His tale gets wierder and wierder.

KenC

[Jet]

Sorry to template your post but it covers a number of seperate issues.

The stark reality in the vast majority of cases as we have seen here, is that the AM brings over a simple, very young, underemployed UW - [ever wonder why the emigration rate from Ukraine is nearly 3X of Russia?] who despite what she might tell her "petitioner" b/f will have the time of her life in America and be able to return to her homeland enriched in many ways. If you think for a second the FSUW hasn't carefully thought about a "back up plan," then, sir, it is you whose inexperience is showing.

How many of these "vast majority" of FSUW do you know well enough to actually see what happens to them once they return? They may well be enriched, but that doesn't do anything for their re-integration into local society which can be incredibly brutal. I personally know 1/2 a dozen or so RW who went back home after a relationship implosion here, none recieved the fairy tale greeting you described earlier.