Your Wife, and His Potential Fiancee

[KenC]

Clyde,

The possibility of Larisa being a scammer, is but only one of the many potential problems in marrying a stranger.  Most of us here are just attempting to persuade Photo to make at least a second trip before bringing his gal here. The ramifications of a hasty K-1 cuts both sides, not just Photos world.

KenC

[Son of Clyde]

Ken, I agree with you but maybe Photo Guy, if he decides to bring her here, can get to know her much better without taking multiple trips. And he can see her reaction to the US. There is no way of knowing this unless she is actually here.

[Turboguy]

I agree with Clyde.   As long as he does not marry her before he kisses her I think it is a good way to go.   This way they can see how they react together in the environment where they will be spending the rest of thier lives.   What is to gain by making another trip.  Maybe a little necking or more but there is plenty of time for that here.   I think he wold waste a lot of time and money and learn far less by going back to visit her again at this point than he will by just waiting a few months till she is here.

[andrewfi]

The K1 visa is not a trial period though and the 90 days spent in the US will be more than enough to thoroughly mess up Larisa's life if (when) she returns home. If he chooses to follow the 89th day marriage strateg, I trust he has in place a plan to help her reintegrate into her home country if she needs to return. Sadly, given Doug's self stated attitude toward life, I kinda think that this might be a little unlikely, even if he could afford it.

If she can afford a three month holiday and to reinsert herself into her previous life then the strategy might be fine. sadly, if she has a job and (or) home, she will likely have lost both before she even got her bags packed and collected her visa.

[Turboguy]

Hopefully these are things she thought about before making the commitment to do the K-1 visa with Doug.    It seems to me that she is coming her knowing that she needs to make Doug feel that they will be happy together and Doug is inviting her knowing that she is making sacrifices and hopefully both will try and make good and happy couple. 

Are you picking up some lack of good faith between them that I am missing?

[andrewfi]

No, not a lack of good faith, at least not on Doug's part, except in so far as he appears woefully unprepared for the next part of his life.

Here is what I really think...

1) Doug has fantasised a barely existant relationship with a woman that he barely knows into the love of his life.

2) Larisa seems willing to go along with him, but she was certainly unable to bring herself to allow physical intimacy.

3) Doug seems to have made no contingency plans for anything less than the full on 'roses and bluebirds' scenario and from what he has told us of his lifestyle, that makes sense (for him).

Now, unless the woman has the intellect of a brass doorstop, she knows that her relationship with Doug is virtually non-existant and that she is not particularly attracted to him; so I find myself wondering why she is willing to go along with this charade.

My feeling is that, if genuine, she may actually not be blessed with any real kind of cognitive ability. Doug would have no way of knowing as he can not communicate with her anyway and (sorry Doug) he is not the sharpest tool on the workbench.

If she is blessed with any kind of intellect beyond that required to keep a door open, then she is aware of what she has and is planning for a life beyond her mule. From what we have seen, unless this girl scrubs up really well, she is lucky to have found anyone to take her away, she will not be wanting to miss the opportunity for a small matter of liking the man she is allowing herself to marry.

Of course, we will not know the outcome and so all this is speculation, but I would be willing to make a small wager on the outcome of any relationship between the two. This is hardly the first case we have seen with not dissimilar circumstances.

[Turboguy]

Andrewfin, I am beginning to think we should be discussing this in the no holds barred section.  Personallly I can't believe anyone would say the things you do in the way you do, or any way at all for that matter,  but back to the point it seems to me you are speculating a lot of trying to come up with some imaginative reasoning so you have an excuse to be in attack mode.  Personally I think people would gain a lot more from these discussions if they were done with a little more civility and logic. 

1.  Their relationship has continued with long phone conversatons.  It might not keep the bed warm but you can build a relationship that way.

2.   They have only had a few days together.  I am sure if she comes here and is cold and distant she will be dealing with Jet Lag a second time sooner than she would otherwise.

3.  If it makes sense to him that should be good enough.  His contgincy plans are no concern of yours or mine other than what he chooses to share with us and I don't remember that topic.  You are speculating here (again)

Now, unless the woman has the intellect of a brass doorstop, she knows that her relationship with Doug is virtually non-existant and that she is not particularly attracted to him; so I find myself wondering why she is willing to go along with this charade.

Humm, maybe you should go into the mind reading business.  Tell me something, how do you know she is not attracted to him,  Because they didn't kiss?  Maybe she thinks he is wonderful but she is afraid her breath is bad.  Maybe she is afraid he won't like her kisses,  maybe she is shy.  If she wasn't attracted to him why would she want to do all that disruption you talked about before.  It seems more logical to me that she is attracted to him.   That would even explain why she was going along with this charade.

If she is blessed with any kind of intellect beyond that required to keep a door open, then she is aware of what she has and is planning for a life beyond her mule. From what we have seen, unless this girl scrubs up really well, she is lucky to have found anyone to take her away, she will not be wanting to miss the opportunity for a small matter of liking the man she is allowing herself to marry

You must have a fixation with doors.   Every example uses something connected with a door.   Never mind.  I don't want to even comment on what I think of this comment and a few of the others as well.  

Perhaps I would have a lot of hesitation getting engaged to a girl I had never kissed.  That is my choice.  Doug is entitled to his, just as you are. I am sure there are circumstances where I could do exactly that and not think about it but he was there and could measure the chemistry or lack of it much better than you and I and if he is happy with the choices he has made that is the important thing.

[andrewfi]

If you read the above, you will note that what I wrote is largely speculation, but based entirely upon what we have been told by Doug, upon the pictures taken by him and also, upon a fair degree of personal knowledge. There is nothing wrong with drawing inference from other similar situations, we all do it all the time.

Do we need to see all the letters to make out the phrase? As we all know from seeing 'Wheel of Fortune' some players need to have all the letters revealed before making the correct answer, some need to see just a few. I make no comment upon Doug's ability to play the inferential analysis game, but I would happily take the small wager previously mentioned.

If we believe that relationships are made by interpreted phone calls and translated emails then I understand the high and rapid failure rate of relationships cross cultural relationships. If you believe that it is OK to bring a person to a country for a trial period, without a clear plan in case of a negative outcome than we have to agree to differ. If you think that one can infer that a person is physically attracted to another when close physical contact was withheld then again, we would have to disagree.

Personally, I do not think that Larisa is as dim as she might be characterised and hence I very strongly think that Doug should make subsequent visits to strengthen his relationship. But yes, there are people for whom time is, in one way or another, the essence and thus short cuts are taken, reality is not looked at and the more objective input of others goes unheeded.

I wish the guy and his penfriend all the happiness, but at the same time, I know that happiness and good luck are not accidents, they come as a result of work. As Alan McDiarmid, the American Noble prize winner wrote: "I am a very lucky person and the harder I work the luckier I seem to be."

[Turboguy]

 but based entirely upon what we have been told by Doug, upon the pictures taken by him

The pictures I have seen show a lot of warmth between them.

I understand the high and rapid failure rate of relationships cross cultural relationships. 

Show me some real statisics.  I think I see as more successess than failures but I have never seen reliable statistics, unless you wan't to call the ones on the home pages of EC and AFA that.

If you believe that it is OK to bring a person to a country for a trial period, without a clear plan in case of a negative outcome than we have to agree to differ.

I agree that is something that needs to be talked about in advance but how do you know they have not talked about it and do not have a plan?  

I very strongly think that Doug should make subsequent visits.

At this point it would seem a little like closing the barn door after the animals have gotten out.    She should have her visa in 6 weeks.   If she is ready to come and they have the plans for what happens in any possibility what would be the use.

but I would be willing to make a small wager on the outcome of any relationship between the two. This is hardly the first case we have seen with not dissimilar circumstances.

I might take you up on that.  From your posts I am assuming small to you is a few thousand.  If we can get someone neutral to hold the cash such as clyde or Jet I think a bet could be fun.

[Son of Clyde]

I did see something strange in her photo but not that she is unattractive or mean. I see an intensity in the way she looks which may also be part of her personality. She looks like the strong willed, Russian woman who may have had a difficult life and want more for herself, and a brighter future. She needs to also want more for Doug's life and be willing to adjust to a life here with Doug. I think a visit to the US will maybe show if she is genuine or not.

[Bruno]

Now, unless the woman has the intellect of a brass doorstop, she knows that her relationship with Doug is virtually non-existant and that she is not particularly attracted to him; so I find myself wondering why she is willing to go along with this charade.

Humm, maybe you should go into the mind reading business.  Tell me something, how do you know she is not attracted to him,  Because they didn't kiss?  Maybe she thinks he is wonderful but she is afraid her breath is bad.  Maybe she is afraid he won't like her kisses,  maybe she is shy.  If she wasn't attracted to him why would she want to do all that disruption you talked about before.  It seems more logical to me that she is attracted to him.   That would even explain why she was going along with this charade.

I am very curious... some think that she have no real interest because she have not kiss...

And what some can think when she have sleep with him... maybe something like "she is a whore, if she sleep so fast with you, she sleep with everybody"...

For have a good view of the situation, we miss one important part here... the point of view from L... How are we able to judge someone that we don't know...

My first wife have kiss me the morning of the second day... the night of the second day, we was together in bed... so, in theory, she was a woman who show in interest... yes, true... She have show her interest... but not her interest in me like i have think... it was her interest to receive the green card...

Until now, from what we know, we cannot say something over L... I remember that some have call L a whore, that she have lie about the beautician convention... but when Doug have visit her, he have know that she have say the true and that some people here was wrong...

So, in place of attack L, give only advice to Doug... general advice... give him the tool needed for himself see if his relation is possible or not...

 

[KenC]

Turbo,

You know I have to agree with you that it is Doug's decision and he will have to face the out come of his actions.  He has clearly stated that he "will go with the flow" whatever the outcome.  Fine.  Great for Doug as he is willingly able to accept the potential failure of this relationship. 

But what about Larisa?  Let's assume for the moment that she doesn't have a hidden agenda.  Let's assume she has fallen head over heels for Doug.  She uproots her life and comes to America with full intentions of living happily ever after.  How does she put her life back together should things go south?  Does she know that Doug is "going with the flow"?  How is it that her potential humiliation of returning to Ukraine not a factor in all of this?

The other side of the previous assumptions is that she is playing Doug and does have another agenda.  Maybe she will file a DV charge before he gets his first kiss!

A lot of what we have written are based on our assumptions because Doug chooses to avoid the difficult questions or believes his own rewritten history.  What I have witnessed here is a man that came back from Ukraine dazed and confused about his meeting with one woman.  "Ambivalent" was the word Doug used to describe Larisa's attitude towards him.  Now he claims there was love in her eyes and things couldn't have gone better.  Only two things have happened since that time.  #1 Doug has fantasized his meeting of Larisa into being a chapter out some Harliquin novel  and #2 Larisa has become the perfect woman due to the attacks made on her here.  In both cases, they are a figment of Doug's over active imagination.

Some of the posts here and elsewhere have been more than a bit rough on Doug.  The reason for that is that Doug deflects the more subtle and gentle suggestions and his willingness to offer his own sage advice on women.  He is desperate to make this relationship work and desperate people do not usually make rational decisions.

KenC

[andrewfi]

Turboguy, If I were as rich as you, a few thousand dollars would perhaps be small. As I have written before, I have a good income by local standards and am making my own way here. I am quite proud of that, coz there ain't many doing it...

Doug should go before she comes over because when she gets here it could be too late. If what the doom mongers tell about DV charges is correct, he could be in trouble within days. At least over there he gets to learn something about her with the benefit of interpreters. He will have little help when they are in the US. How is an average sorta guy going to get to the bottom of whatever she migbe doing, until the locks are changed on his house?

It is easy to say that things will work out, I wonder just how many people really think of the practicalities before they let Harry Hormone take over. As to what we know or do not know about what Doug has planned, well, he  has told us. He is going to let things take their course. If that is enough for Doug, it is not enough for me and it should not have been for you - I trust it was not.

Just a small, teeny weeny question for you Turbo.

Would you entertain being engaged without even having kissed your fiancee?

Would her agreement to accept your money for the air fare be enough for you? Coz that is what you are suggesting, and from where I sit, knowing a little about the realities of what women are willing to (and do) do, I would suggest with all respect, that it is folly. The K1 explicitly assumes that a couple are coming to the US to plan and execute a wedding, it is not a trial period. Would you plan a wedding without being engaged?

See what happens when the questions are asked?

Did you ask the questions?

Were they answered?

What would have happened if the K1 for you was not a trial period?

I know this thread is not about you, but in the end, everyoine getting married, or planning to, goes through the same stuff and if the ducks ain't in a row things go wrong. They can still go wrong even when everything is done right, but just being one of life's gamblers and going with the flow as Doug said he intended to do is nuts. Anyone else who has emulated him is the same, whatever the outcome!

[RacerX]

Gentlemen:

Many of us often think about this process (bringing a RW to the US) in very traditional, or better stated, using the tools those before us have employed successfully.  In fact, however our "Plan A" is not the only way, and others have gainfully resorted to a "Plan B."

Plan B in the finest of Russian traditions (i.e., "screw the State") makes use of the less often explored K-1 visa loopholes.  

What some members have failed to realize is that RW are very conservative in their natural environment.  Those men who knowingly state: "if a RW likes you, you will know it," have without little uncertainly returned home with the equivalent of a Russian prostitute. [definition: a women who will have sex with you after a couple of meetings as a way of furthering her financial gain]. A couple of meetings is further extended to mean: you saw her on a couple of trips and felt somehow she was the one for you, language and cultural barriers be damned.

What Doug is doing is best characterized as the second way of going about this.  After his g/f arrives he will attempt to establish a real relationship with her.  According to US law he has 90 days to do this. IF it shows some promise, but no definitive conclusion is reached, nothing prevents him/her from pursuing a second K-1, or for that matter even more.

Furthermore, don't feel you must somehow stand up for his g/f like an older brother might do.  Odds are, either she will have the time of her life and depart with jewelry, a new wardrobe, and nice travel memories, or she will simply ask her boss for a often granted extension of her vacation time and return to her mundane and poorly paying job in the FSU, or both.  No harm, no foul.

It may not be how you would go about doing it, but it doesn't mean it's not a viable alternate.  c'est la vie or even more so: chacun à son goût!

[Jet]

Racer, I think you're off base.

Furthermore, don't feel you must somehow stand up for his g/f like an older brother might do. Odds are, either she will have the time of her life and depart with jewelry, a new wardrobe, and nice travel memories, or she will simply ask her boss for a often granted extension of her vacation time and return to her mundane and poorly paying job in the FSU, or both. No harm, no foul.

Your inexperience is showing again! The two possibilities you illustrated are indeed "no harm, no foul" scenarios, but there are half a dozen other possibilities that are FAR more likely, that don't end so neat and tidy. Any woman who agrees to uproot her life on a whim and leave everything she's ever known behind, either has a plan, or really does need looking out for.

[RacerX]

Geez, I am starting to sound like Andrew around here

Look, sorry if you took offense at my wording, and assure you I didn't mean it specifically at you or anyone else, but I find it odd that you felt it actually did apply.  The "compressed timeline factor" is pure bullsheet manufactured by horny AM who want to land their catch ASAP.  Show me a man who swayed the heart of a genuine RW by telling her; "sorry honey, but I only have a week, so you'll just have to 'put out' or it's off to the next woman!"  Perhaps I should have been more gentle in my selection of an appropriate moniker, but 'prostitute' seemed good... maybe 'easy girl' or 'adventurist' is kinder on the ears?

I beg to differ on your recollection of the "kick Doug" threads here and elsewhere.  Yes, most did imply that his g/f should be rolling in the hay with him, and with respect to what affection she demonstrated towards him - well I always give 45+ YO men a least a modicum of credit for knowing a little about life.

But just for interest since you say most have taken extraordinary measures to overcome language and cultural barriers: do you speak fluent Russian?  Have you lived in Russia for several years?  Or more likely, can you speak a handful of Russian words and have traveled for at most a couple of months in Russia as a tourist?  None of these will cut it when it comes to serious relationship building. :seething:

I am not sure what this mumbo-jumbo about I-129f's has to do with two people trying to develop a relationship within a very restrictive US policy that all people I have spoken to feel that serious modifications are needed.  I fully support a one k-1/fiancee policy, but that's just me, others may find a different route to happiness.

The stark reality in the vast majority of cases as we have seen here, is that the AM brings over a simple, very young, underemployed UW - [ever wonder why the emigration rate from Ukraine is nearly 3X of Russia?] who despite what she might tell her "petitioner" b/f will have the time of her life in America and be able to return to her homeland enriched in many ways. If you think for a second the FSUW hasn't carefully thought about a "back up plan," then, sir, it is you whose inexperience is showing.

[Voyageur]

RacerX,

I must admit that your line about FSU "prostitutes" got under my skin a bit also, when thinking about my wife. Certainly, I hold true the saying that "if a Russian woman likes you, you will know this". I have certainly found this to be true and time periods should not be part of this equation - because - in my experience - I knew this very well quickly.  Before meeting my present wife, I was engaged to a (younger) woman from Ukraine and brought her to the US on a K1 visa. Certainly, I could not tell determined if she liked me - which should have told me everything I needed to know. :huh: It is easy to see this in hindsight, that is for sure.

But now - if the present session of Congress is to get it's wish - my lifetime ration of K1 visas are completed. It is great that a combination of hard work and luck (or fate, as many FSU women believe) that I met my wife. It is so @#$@# great that our Congress will decide this for me. :X:X

Also, FWIW, I know only a few Russian words and my wife speaks English very well, so communication was never a problem for us.

[KenC]

The stark reality in the vast majority of cases as we have seen here, is that the AM brings over a simple, very young, underemployed UW - [ever wonder why the emigration rate from Ukraine is nearly 3X of Russia?] who despite what she might tell her "petitioner" b/f will have the time of her life in America and be able to return to her homeland enriched in many ways.

RacerX,

I know of only one case where the RW "played" the AM for the 90 day period and returned to Russia feeling "enriched." In that particular case, she really was more of a working girl and was in it totally for the monitary benifit and had no delusions of any affection or staying beyond the 90 days.  But she was not the typical example.  In every other case, the women were completely devastated and their lives were ruined.

KenC

[jb]

Back to the original premise of asking an established RW here to talk to, and make recommendations w/r/t the worthiness of a potential K-1'er.  I talked to my wife about this idea and after giving her the rundown on the "why" of it, she gave me an emphatic 'NO'.

Her reasoning is there is no way she could take that kind of responsibility for another person's life choices and still sleep at night.  Whether a couple chooses to marry or not, is their doing; they alone are responsible for making the effort to know if the future mate is suitable  Palming off the decision on a totally unknown by-stander is a cowardly way to cover one's tracks in the event of a melt down.  

She seems to think PhotoGuy needs to go back to school and learn some basics, he's behaving in a not grownup fashion if he thinks there's a magic bullet like this that will solve his problems.  She recommends not one, but several trips, to visit the pshrink.  Forget about going to the FSU at this time.  Everything she's read on this and the related threads indicate to her that he's not ready to marry anyone.  Especially to a woman as needy and desperate as he is himself.

[KenC]

jb,

Your wife is right.  It would be foolish to get involved at this point.  When I first read your post, I thought back to the many times Lena had offered to speak with RW for AM.  But in every case, it was in a budding relationship and not to a woman already in the K-1 process.  The requests all came during the weeding out process and more to determine if the lady had potential.  And that is why Photo's actions are so bizarre.  On one hand he knows Larisa well enough to be engaged and bring her here on a K-1, but on the other hand, he would like to get a second opinion on her from a complete stranger.  Huh?  His tale gets wierder and wierder.

KenC

[Jet]

Sorry to template your post but it covers a number of seperate issues.

The stark reality in the vast majority of cases as we have seen here, is that the AM brings over a simple, very young, underemployed UW - [ever wonder why the emigration rate from Ukraine is nearly 3X of Russia?] who despite what she might tell her "petitioner" b/f will have the time of her life in America and be able to return to her homeland enriched in many ways. If you think for a second the FSUW hasn't carefully thought about a "back up plan," then, sir, it is you whose inexperience is showing.

How many of these "vast majority" of FSUW do you know well enough to actually see what happens to them once they return? They may well be enriched, but that doesn't do anything for their re-integration into local society which can be incredibly brutal. I personally know 1/2 a dozen or so RW who went back home after a relationship implosion here, none recieved the fairy tale greeting you described earlier.