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Author Topic: Putin is Ruining Russia  (Read 232959 times)

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Offline GQBlues

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #425 on: July 31, 2014, 04:13:20 PM »

Most people that see this CNN report would conclude that the Ballistic missiles were fired.  So once again, the news has completely stopped on this issue..FOR THE MOMENT....that isn't normal for a story this big...The thing that our govt. is relying on is if they don't comment on it, and the report is not seen by very many, the people will never know. Others don't care if they are manipulated because they are vested in the US narrative.    This going to be quite an indictment on our media if this is how it winds up going down. 

Media blackouts is nothing new. It's been around all of us for ages. The age of superinformation highway, while promising in its inception, is helpless with heavy-handed government censorship everywhere.

Just this year alone, ask any one if they were aware of conflicts/unrest/protest - largely against western-backed,-styled regimes...in such places like Taipei/Taiwan, Morroco, Bahrain, etc...and yes, even events we read little of that's happening/happened in Ukraine.
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #426 on: July 31, 2014, 04:21:47 PM »
My, you do like to sensationalize.

No, I don't.

Quote
..First, the only people preaching genocide are the Hamas....

Read a little bit of  European news, if I can't convince you.

Quote
...Second, combat in a congested urban environment results in both sides killing civilians....

Tell that to the parents of those 4 children killed playing in the beach by the Israeli. The UN had given both sides GPS locations for UN-designated safe houses. The Israeli bombed them anyway. The UN themselves investigated claims about militants using these facilities as points of rocket firing and weapon storage as preposterous. Read the UN report if you don't believe me. They do store weapons in 'empty school places' the UN found, not in occupied, designated safe houses.

Quote
The killing of 1000 Palestinian civilians is dreadful, yet the number seems small when considering the dense population,...


LOL. 194 Dutch that died on MH17 relative to the entire population of the Netherlands is small, what exactly is the point you're trying to make? Did you happen to wonder what the fuzz was all about? LOL. That sort of gives a nice glimpse into your thought process. If that's what made me sensationalized in your mind, then I'll make sure to keep that in mind.

Quote
...the ordnance, the tactic of the Hamas to position itself where civilian deaths will occur, etc.

See above.

Quote
Compare that with the number of Syrian civilians...

Ahh Syria, yes...they were gassing them, right?

Quote
...How many Soviet civilians died fighting the Nazis?

Full circle back to the *Nazis*.

The rest of the post is hardly even worth reading much less reply to.

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::Basura here:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Quote
First, the Ukrainians  were attacking rebels embedded in an urban environment (see above).  Second, the film centered on one injured woman and she was not decapitated; she was in shock talking to the cameraman.  Third, I don't recall any reputable news agency blaming it on the rebels.  A couple of people here speculated that it was RPGs.   Do you recall your saying it was not RPGs because there were no RPG entrails?   ;)   Fourth, RT owns the tape.   



CNN was using the same White House source that previously had provided evidence of 1)  the SAM missile taking out MK 17 being fired from a rebel stronghold and 2) Russian heavy weapons being fired from inside Russia at Ukrainian military positions inside Ukraine.  Surely you are not one of those people who would selectively choose evidence. 
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Quote
Finally, I am amazed by how much you enjoy being the advocate for some bad people.  I recall how you defended the Tsarnaev brothers (Boston marathon bombing).  A devil's advocate serves its purposes in a deliberation, yet it seems to me you are repeatedly going too far.

Oh yeah, the Boston bomber/s...LOL

Have they shown you the evidence yet? It's been what, over 2 years now?
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 05:41:07 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Gator

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #427 on: July 31, 2014, 04:40:56 PM »

The rest of the post is hardly even worth reading much less reply to.   


 :ROFL:   Of course you ignore.  You made  statements and  I corrected them or showed how you are choosing news selectively.  Of course you would ignore that. 


Regarding Israel-Hamas, when you have a viable solution to the Middle East conflict, I will gladly discuss the Middle East.   I told the same to FT.  Meanwhile "they" will keep killing each other and political regimes will come and go with little progress.  What you and I post about that conflict is useless, plus irrelevant to a discussion of Ukraine. 


Offline Gator

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #428 on: July 31, 2014, 04:50:58 PM »
Fathertime, why be so negative and weak?



We shouldn't have interfered at all in that area.  We (the American people) don't actually know the extent of our interference or money spent...we would have to trust our govt. to know...and very few of us do, anymore.


Why do you say interfere?  Perhaps what we did was insignificant or maybe even beneficial for Ukrainian people.


"The mission of a U.S. diplomat in the Foreign Service is to promote peace, support prosperity, and protect American citizens while advancing the interests of the U.S. abroad."  Yes, America has made mistakes.  Yet I assert on net that our actions over the long term have benefitted the world and Americans such as you and me in particular.



Quote
Another 'nature of the beast' is that if you get involved and have you get called, you have to back it up..you have to 'fight'.

Not this President.  Remember the "red line" drawn in Syria. 


Quote

 Does it seem to you that the American people are interested in fighting Russia over parts of Ukraine?  Russia will likely put us in that position...so then what? Sanctions? We leave?  Ukrainians will be the ones that pay dearly with their lives. 


We will not go beyond sanctions and economic actions to hurt Russia.  If Russia attacks us.......but they won't. 

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #429 on: July 31, 2014, 05:06:45 PM »

 :ROFL:   Of course you ignore.  You made  statements and  I corrected them or showed how you are choosing news selectively.  Of course you would ignore that. ...

Sheeesshh...

Here:  http://ukraineinvestigation.com/terrorists-damage-regional-state-administration-luhansk-rpg/



http://www.facebook.com/euromaidanpr/posts/264603177056825

*correct that!*


Quote
Regarding Israel-Hamas, when you have a viable solution to the Middle East conflict, I will gladly discuss the Middle East.   I told the same to FT.  Meanwhile "they" will keep killing each other and political regimes will come and go with little progress.  What you and I post about that conflict is useless, plus irrelevant to a discussion of Ukraine.

That wasn't your silly contention so don't pull your tail back down. At least be a *man* and admit you fcoked up again and it got handed back to you..

So no *new* evidence on the Boston Bomber case, eh?  :rolleyes:
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #430 on: July 31, 2014, 05:33:39 PM »
And so it goes in the life and times of Marie Harf and Matthew Lee...
::::::::::::::::CHAPTER: SELECTIVE INVESTIGATIVE MATERIAL SUPPRESSION::::::::::::::::

QUESTION
: Go to Ukraine?

MS. HARF
: Yep.

QUESTION: So it looks as though – well, not doesn’t look as though; it is the case that the – at least some investigators made it to --

MS. HARF: Correct.

QUESTION:
-- the crash site this morning. I’m wondering if you have anything to say about that, and are there – do you have any people there?

MS. HARF:
So we are pleased that OSCE monitors with Dutch and Australian investigators were able to finally gain access to the crash site today. They had some difficulties getting there, but they did gain access. I don’t think we have anyone there.

QUESTION:
Okay.

MS. HARF: I’m happy to check.

QUESTION:
Does that mean that you believe the Poroshenko/separatist – or that the cease-fire, whatever – however you want to describe it, that – around the crash site is working?

MS. HARF:
Well, we have welcomed his announcement of a unilateral cease-fire. We have called on the Russian-backed separatists to honor it. We’ve seen there’s still some fighting in the area. We saw today that a group of separatists were trying to prevent access, fired on the Ukrainian security forces who were escorting the convoys. So it’s still a challenging security environment.

QUESTION:
So you’re not yet in – you’re not yet satisfied with the situation as it exists in terms of security at the crash site?

MS. HARF:
There’s – more needs to be done.

QUESTION
: Okay. And there were some reports yesterday about land mines being close to – you have anything about that?

MS. HARF:
Yeah. We couldn’t confirm – we could not and still cannot confirm those reports.

QUESTION:
All right.

MS. HARF:
I saw those as well.

QUESTION
: Now, for the last couple days, you’ve been asked about the Ukrainian military’s counterterrorism operation or operations that are going after the separatists in areas of south and east Ukraine, and you’ve been asked about civilian casualties. Yesterday, you said yes, you were – are concerned about civilian casualties in all these cases, but you’re not sure who – if they’re firing these --

MS. HARF
: Right, we aren’t --

QUESTION:
-- this artillery or not. Is that --

MS. HARF:
We don’t have granularity on all the details.

QUESTION:
Still not? So you do on Gaza, you’re pretty sure you know what’s going on in Gaza because of the UN and because of the Israeli statements, but --

MS. HARF:
We’ve continued to gather information.

QUESTION:
-- presented with accounts from the civilians in the southeast of Ukraine where you’ve seen --

MS. HARF:
We’re working to verify them, Matt.

QUESTION:
So you can’t yet verify that there have been a – what you would consider to be an unacceptably high level of civilian casualties?

MS. HARF:
Correct. We cannot confirm that.

QUESTION:
But you – just to make sure --

MS. HARF
: Because in many of the --

QUESTION:
Well, hold on. Hold on.

MS. HARF
: Well, no, wait. No, let me tell you why we can’t, though, because that’s important. Because many of these are reported to be happening in a Russian separatist-controlled area, which we just have much less visibility into often.

QUESTION: Okay, but, I mean, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re not happening.

MS. HARF:
But we can’t confirm them either. So before we confirm them, we’ve seen the reports, and --

QUESTION:
Right.

MS. HARF:
-- if true, they would be concerning, but no.

QUESTION:
Okay, but unless I’m mistaken, you haven’t absolutely confirmed that it was Israeli shells that hit the UN school.

MS. HARF:
Which is why I said what I said today in the way I said it.

QUESTION:
Exactly, but – okay, but anyway, it is still a concern civilian casualties on both sides of the Ukraine conflict, as it is elsewhere?

MS. HARF:
Civilian casualties are always a concern, but the Ukrainian Government has shown remarkable restraint here I would note.

QUESTION:
Okay. And are you yet willing – well, that’s a bad way to put it. Have you seen any sign yet that the sanctions that were imposed going back all the way as far as the annexation of Crimea, but up to and including the sanctions that were just announced the other day --

MS. HARF:
Yes.

QUESTION:
-- that – have you seen any sign that those have had an impact on President Putin or the Russian Government’s decision making as it relates to Ukraine, as it relates to support for the – what your – the support for the separatists in terms of what you say is the movement of heavy weapons and artillery shelling?

MS. HARF:
We continue to see the Russians supporting the separatists.

QUESTION:
So in other words, the sanctions have not had an impact?

MS. HARF:
Well, this isn’t a yes or no proposition here.

QUESTION:
It’s not?

MS. HARF:
There’s a long-term, strategic calculus that President Putin undoubtedly is making right now, and I can’t predict whether or not in his head at this moment it is having an impact.

QUESTION
: But not yet? You haven’t seen in --
MS. HARF: We haven’t seen the situation on the ground change. Okay?
QUESTION:
Because of the sanctions or because of anything else?

MS. HARF:
Because of anything.

QUESTION:
All right.

MS. HARF:
I mean if President Putin is willing to drive his economy into the ground, make that decision, but that’s a pretty bold decision to be making for the people of Russia.

QUESTION:
Do you have any new evidence of the shelling that you say is coming from the Russian side and the shipments of weaponry to the separatists?

MS. HARF:
We did – let’s see. As of July 26th, which is a few days ago now, we had seen two additional battalion tactical groups in the Rostov area, which is 50 kilometers from the Ukrainian border. That has brought the total number of Russian battalion tactical groups deployed near the border to at least 16. That’s something we’ve been watching very --

QUESTION:
But that’s in Russia.

 
MS. HARF: Correct.

QUESTION:
Right.

MS. HARF
: But they’re deployed near the border. I’m just noting some of the things we’ve seen lately.

QUESTION
: Oh, okay.

MS. HARF:
We continue to see shipments.

QUESTION
: You continue to see shipments across the border and the shelling too?

MS. HARF:
I can check on the shelling
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 05:36:27 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #431 on: July 31, 2014, 06:07:58 PM »
This video was prepared by members of Russia's opposition.


After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline AC

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #432 on: July 31, 2014, 06:14:52 PM »

LOL. 194 Dutch that died on MH17 relative to the entire population of the Netherlands is small, what exactly is the point you're trying to make? Did you happen to wonder what the fuzz was all about? LOL. That sort of gives a nice glimpse into your thought process. If that's what made me sensationalized in your mind, then I'll make sure to keep that in mind.



Your logic (and I use the term loosely) is flawed.  Are you now claiming that Ukrainian soldiers were embedded in flight MH17 and therefore the pro-Russian separatists had a right to fire on it?

Hamas is a terrorist organization which has been proven to deliberately launch missiles into Israel from civilian households; in essence they deliberately use civilian men, women and children as shields.

Please attempt to keep this an apples to apples comparison.  Both Russia and in particular Putin are responsible for the deaths of 298 civilians, because of their foolish decision to give advanced weaponry to gangs of mercenaries operating on their orders.

Offline fathertime

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #433 on: July 31, 2014, 08:21:44 PM »
Fathertime, why be so negative and weak?


Why do you say interfere?  Perhaps what we did was insignificant or maybe even beneficial for Ukrainian people.


"The mission of a U.S. diplomat in the Foreign Service is to promote peace, support prosperity, and protect American citizens while advancing the interests of the U.S. abroad."  Yes, America has made mistakes.  Yet I assert on net that our actions over the long term have benefitted the world and Americans such as you and me in particular.
 


Well I understand you have made millions or more of dollars which I think is just jolly good...and if you say US foreign policy has helped you do it, I believe you.   Yes perhaps I have benefited financially as well.  All that said, has that REALLY benefited the world...that is very questionable.  How is what I call 'our interference' going to benefit YOU and ME going forward?  I believe we have reached a point of diminishing returns or even worse... repercussions.  I don't think it is weak to pull back, I think it is a smart move for us. 


Since we have imposed those new sanctions, our stock market has boomeranged backwards,and I have concerns about it really tanking if we get too reckless...and that could hurt quite a bit....remember we are rather broke in some respects.  The stock market is one of the only things that has been going well for us up to this point.  I am still of the feeling that we shouldn't get too involved in these worldwide conflicts for the time being...we are shooting ourselves in the foot.


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #434 on: July 31, 2014, 08:24:04 PM »

Your logic (and I use the term loosely) is flawed.  Are you now claiming that Ukrainian soldiers were embedded in flight MH17 and therefore the pro-Russian separatists had a right to fire on it?...

How can you discern *logic* over something you obviously have no comprehension of what was being discussed? So allow me to suggest that you better stay silent and have me think of you as a f**l, than do what you just did and leave me no doubt.

Quote
...Hamas is a terrorist organization which has been proven to deliberately launch missiles into Israel from civilian households; in essence they deliberately use civilian men, women and children as shields. ...

Get yourself better informed on matters you think you know. This way...see above.

Quote
...Please attempt to keep this an apples to apples comparison.  Both Russia and in particular Putin are responsible for the deaths of 298 civilians, because of their foolish decision to give advanced weaponry to gangs of mercenaries operating on their orders.

LOL...apples to apples? Do you happen to have evidence of that which you're blathering about? No...and not from UkraineInvestigation either. LOL.
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #435 on: July 31, 2014, 08:50:11 PM »

All that said, has that REALLY benefited the world...that is very questionable. 


I disagree.  US interference and Reagan's obsession with communism hastened the USSR's collapse.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 09:47:25 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #436 on: July 31, 2014, 09:29:04 PM »

Please attempt to keep this an apples to apples comparison.  Both Russia and in particular Putin are responsible for the deaths of 298 civilians, because of their foolish decision to give advanced weaponry to gangs of mercenaries operating on their orders.


Well AC, that is the story (and it sure benefited the narrative our 'representatives' wanted)...given our govt's evasiveness regarding the ballistic missiles... I am having a harder time believing we are getting the whole truth on this one either...


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #437 on: August 01, 2014, 12:04:05 AM »
1.  AK, it sounds like you are questioning this report by CNN and American intelligence regarding the Ballistic missiles: Later if this finally confirmed, you will admit that you were mistaken...Right?


http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/world/2014/07/29/ath-starr-officials-ukraine-military-fired-at-rebels.cnn.html

Of course I'm questioning it.  Please take a minute to re-read what I wrote earlier about ballistic missiles, their trajectory and their range.  That range is repeated in the article you have linked -

"Versions of the ballistic missile, the SS21 Scarab Tochka, have a range between 70, 120, and 185 kilometers with accuracy of 160, 95, and 70 meters respectively."

The missile paths shown in the CNN video have distances of 5 and 11 km from firing position to target.  You cannot seriously expect me to agree that a ballistic missile, which is designed to go into sub-orbital space, can possibly have a range that short - it's never happened in history, and it's not happening now.  To bring the range back to that, you would have to power down the thrust of the rocket so much that it would not even be able to leave the launcher with any sort of stability, and you would be hoping that it would basically go straight up and straight down.  These things do NOT weigh 50 kilos - they weigh a couple of tons.  Also, remember that the warhead carries half a ton of high explosive, which would leave a far bigger hole than you can see in those photos.

I'm quite prepared to agree that Ukraine may have used some sort of missile on this occasion - I just don't believe that they were ballistic.


2.  You attributed quotes to me that were NOT mine....I put them in a quote box...and they came from this link:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/Ukraine-Firing-Ballistic-M-by-Michael-Collins-Ballistic-Missiles_Brand-Obama_CNN_Resistance-140730-579.html

I know they weren't your quotes - I thought that by including the "list" brackets it would show a box within a box.  No matter how I played with it, it wouldn't.


3.  Yes I'm calling into question other stories now...the one thing that appears certain is that Ballistic missiles were almost certainly launched...and the western media is not covering that story.  I'm wondering if that will continue, or will reporters start asking questions and force an admission. I've never said Ukraine couldn't/shouldn't  do what it needs to do...but to have it covered up is counter to a lot of things...and appears to be the suppression we in the West grumble about as it pertains to Russian media.


Fathertime!

For the reasons I've stated above, I don't believe that ballistic missiles were used here.  However, as I've also stated, I'm quite prepared to believe that Ukraine may have used some other sort of missile.  As for cover-ups, they come from all sides in any conflict.  The Russian media appears to have forgotten how to report the truth in so much of this conflict; enough for at least a couple of news anchors (and maybe other journalists) to resign in protest at claims they knew were rubbish.  I haven't yet seen reports of any Ukrainian or western journalist/reporter/news anchor doing the same.

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Offline fathertime

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #439 on: August 01, 2014, 07:29:00 AM »


The missile paths shown in the CNN video have distances of 5 and 11 km from firing position to target.  You cannot seriously expect me to agree that a ballistic missile, which is designed to go into sub-orbital space, can possibly have a range that short - 
A couple points to this AK....


1.  Where did you get that 5-11 KM?  The CNN report specifically says they don't have a firing position.  If you are basing your position on the firing range, of 5-11KM you must be reading something else...because I've re-reviewed the video clip and story once again and don't see any mention of 5-11KM. 
2. THREE US OFFICIALS confirmed a ballistic missile launch.
3. The Retired General comes on at around 2.30 of the video...he certainly believes it is physically possible for this to be a ballistic missile launch.
4.  Now NOTHING else has been mentioned..days later....clearly this story is being buried...and it is working....as biased as RT is...this is just as bad...and I'm still surprised our media isn't asking more questions...I don't know if this legit story will ever see the light of day 


 

I know they weren't your quotes - I thought that by including the "list" brackets it would show a box within a box.  No matter how I played with it, it wouldn't.
 
1. No problem...I have quite a bit of trouble with the quote box as well..






Fathertime! 

« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 07:30:45 AM by fathertime »
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #440 on: August 01, 2014, 07:52:31 AM »
Fathertime, Just for you a respectful and thorough explanation of my position regarding your opinion.


...and if you say US foreign policy has helped you do it, I believe you.   Yes perhaps I have benefited financially as well.  All that said, has that REALLY benefited the world...that is very questionable.
 

It is easy to name examples of our misguided support of some harsh dictators, yet on the whole  our foreign policy has helped make the world more prosperous,  more democratic, and more secure.    You must consider the past 100 years.  100 years ago the US had a non-interventionist policy (something you seem to profess today).  Woodrow Wilson changed that.  Consider the positive international effect of the Wilson initiatives.  Continuing, consider WWII and the war against fascism.  Consider the support given to a vanquished Germany and Japan and where those two countries are today.  Consider the collapse of the CCCP, the freedom given to Warsaw pact nations, and the resulting peace benefit.   Consider the humanitarian aid over the 100 years.

On a selfish note, consider how this has helped America immensely (English as the international language,  huge volume of American international business, reduced and now stabilized Defense spending, RW wives   :), etc.)   


Quote
How is what I call 'our interference' going to benefit YOU and ME going forward?  I believe we have reached a point of diminishing returns or even worse... repercussions.  I don't think it is weak to pull back, I think it is a smart move for us. 

Maybe I am too dramatic, yet Putin's initiatives in Ukraine are akin to an initial  outbreak of Ebola.  [Please bear with me as you will likely agree that Putin is more a pathogen than a probiotic  :) ].   

In contrast with our foreign policy, Putin's policy is not helping to make the world more democratic, more secure, and more prosperous (especially for the Ukrainians).  To the contrary they are making the world less stable at a time when the world needs more stability.   Just as Ebola needs to be contained, so do Putin's initiatives.   How?   He needs to be contained by Western initiatives short of starting a war, short of hurting the global economy, and short of freezing the Europeans this winter. 

Your option is to do nothing and thus allow Ukrainians to be forcibly returned to a vassal state.   I don't believe we should ignore Ebola and hope evolutionary nature develops immunity for us all. 

Quote
Since we have imposed those new sanctions, our stock market has boomeranged backwards...

The stock market is now correcting for being ahead of itself.  This is normal in a bull market.   The American economy continues to grow and many factors suggest the bull market will continue as the world economy grows. 


Quote
      I am still of the feeling that we shouldn't get too involved in these worldwide conflicts for the time being...we are shooting ourselves in the foot.



Disruption of energy supplies will for sure harm the global  economy.  In this regard, Russia and the Middle East are very important factors.     It is not a time to ignore them and simply hope for the best.  So Fathertime, returning to an isolationist policy of 100 years ago could easily be detrimental, now and especially over the long term.   


Offline cc3

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #441 on: August 01, 2014, 08:27:06 AM »
@ Gator: +1000!

Offline Gator

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #442 on: August 01, 2014, 08:41:31 AM »

That wasn't your silly contention so don't pull your tail back down. At least be a *man* and admit you fcoked up again and it got handed back to you..


Unlike you, I will admit to being wrong.  However, I am not wrong in this instance

To review, I corrected your sensationalized and selective post.  First you ignore, and now you claim to refute my corrections.  And you plop in a bunch of links to make it appear as if your claim holds water. 

Please, let us be more vigorous when subjecting my following corrections to scrutiny:


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First, the Ukrainians  were attacking rebels embedded in an urban environment (see above).


Still true.  Civilian casualties are inevitable.  It is tragic yet we should not be shocked unless it is something grossly negligent or intentional.


Quote
Second, the film centered on one injured woman and she was not decapitated; she was in shock talking to the cameraman.


Still true.  I reluctantly watched your video thinking it might show a decapitated person.  None shown and in fact it introduces nothing new, so why waste our time.

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Third, I don't recall any reputable news agency blaming it on the rebels. A couple of people here speculated that it was RPGs.   Do you recall your saying it was not RPGs because there were no RPG entrails?   ;)


Still true.   You provided a facebook link and a release by some organization called "Ukraine Investigation."  Do you really consider these  as "reputable news agencies?" In the original thread, I first said these were not RPGs. 

Really GQ, you need to bring more substance to these discussions rather than just your immediate impressions.  Otherwise, this become tedious.   


Quote
So no *new* evidence on the Boston Bomber case, eh?  :rolleyes:

You mentioned in the RWD thread a year ago that Tsarnaev was being framed as part of some conspiracy.    So you now have evidence supporting your very odd thinking.  What's next, Aaron Hernandez is being framed?  (unfortunately he will probably be acquitted).  Maybe something in defense of your neighbor Donald Sterling?

Offline Gator

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #443 on: August 01, 2014, 09:12:15 AM »
This video was prepared by members of Russia's opposition.





It is more credible and has less propaganda than I would expect given the background of the producers.  Why can't the Russian supporters do the same?   

Good title - The Warmonger. 

BTW, Putin's response to a direct question about Russia's involvement at 0:27 is priceless; reminds me of some RWD posters.   George Bush was blind when he met Putin.   Hearing Bush, Putin must have thought, "what a durak."  That was a long time ago and Putin is still dictating Russian policy.

 

Offline fathertime

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #444 on: August 01, 2014, 09:57:05 AM »
Fathertime, Just for you a respectful and thorough explanation of my position regarding your opinion.
 

It is easy to name examples of our misguided support of some harsh dictators, yet on the whole  our foreign policy has helped make the world more prosperous,  more democratic, and more secure.    You must consider the past 100 years.  100 years ago the US had a non-interventionist policy (something you seem to profess today).  Woodrow Wilson changed that.  Consider the positive international effect of the Wilson initiatives.  Continuing, consider WWII and the war against fascism.  Consider the support given to a vanquished Germany and Japan and where those two countries are today.  Consider the collapse of the CCCP, the freedom given to Warsaw pact nations, and the resulting peace benefit.   Consider the humanitarian aid over the 100 years.

On a selfish note, consider how this has helped America immensely (English as the international language,  huge volume of American international business, reduced and now stabilized Defense spending, RW wives   :) , etc.)   


Maybe I am too dramatic, yet Putin's initiatives in Ukraine are akin to an initial  outbreak of Ebola.  [Please bear with me as you will likely agree that Putin is more a pathogen than a probiotic  :) ].   

In contrast with our foreign policy, Putin's policy is not helping to make the world more democratic, more secure, and more prosperous (especially for the Ukrainians).  To the contrary they are making the world less stable at a time when the world needs more stability.   Just as Ebola needs to be contained, so do Putin's initiatives.   How?   He needs to be contained by Western initiatives short of starting a war, short of hurting the global economy, and short of freezing the Europeans this winter. 

Your option is to do nothing and thus allow Ukrainians to be forcibly returned to a vassal state.   I don't believe we should ignore Ebola and hope evolutionary nature develops immunity for us all. 

The stock market is now correcting for being ahead of itself.  This is normal in a bull market.   The American economy continues to grow and many factors suggest the bull market will continue as the world economy grows. 



Disruption of energy supplies will for sure harm the global  economy.  In this regard, Russia and the Middle East are very important factors.     It is not a time to ignore them and simply hope for the best.  So Fathertime, returning to an isolationist policy of 100 years ago could easily be detrimental, now and especially over the long term.
Well Gator, you make a good case overall...of course I don't entirely agree, but still some of the points are compelling enough.


1.  clearly we (the people here in the states) have probably benefited greatly...and having the option to pick out younger beautiful Russian/Ukrainian/Asian/Latina wives is a very nice perk.


2.  Regarding Ukraine...I still hold that this is a Russian/Ukrainian issue and we should not blow it up into something much larger.  I can understand us, trying to put up some barriers.  I recognize the lopsidedness of our spokes-peoples rants, and omissions... but don't like the dishonestly in what I see as propaganda.   Personally I think Russia should have stopped at Crimea, but they didn't as they are pushing for a federalized Ukraine.  Some say that this is a ploy to take all of Ukraine, I don't think so, as I see tremendous negatives if Russia were to attempt this...If a Ukrainian federation solves the current issue and people can get on with their lives, I think that is the greater good then the alternatives which appear to be bleak....but I respect Ukrainian's viewpoints, if they want to fight Russia they know the what the consequences could be...or maybe they will somehow prevail. 


3. Intervention in the Middle East:   I don't want to see energy supplies threatened, but I am seeing them more threatened now then ever. There are at least 4 battles going on, with the potential for more.  Whatever we have been doing, doesn't seem to be working very well...and we have made arch enemies which will probably come back to bite us down the line.  You have mentioned that I need to have a solution to the Middle East, well since I'm generally for non-intervention whereas you have mentioned we need to be involved...so by that reasoning isn't it YOU that needs to have the solution? 


4.  Regarding the economy:  In many respects, our economy does seem a little frail right now.  Imposing and enforcing sanctions is going to hurt us...could be a final nail to this 'recovery'.  I just think we should be focusing our efforts in other places, rather than sanctioning people....we just sanctioned Venezuela yesterday too. Aside from Colombia (my favorite South American country), much of S. America is becoming rather critical of what is seen as US hypocrisy. 


[size=78%]http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Americas/2014/0731/Will-US-sanctions-offer-Venezuela-s-Maduro-a-helping-hand[/size]


Anyway, thanks for the respectful tone...that is in the minority here.


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Gator

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #445 on: August 01, 2014, 10:53:14 AM »


3. ..... You have mentioned that I need to have a solution to the Middle East, well since I'm generally for non-intervention whereas you have mentioned we need to be involved...so by that reasoning isn't it YOU that needs to have the solution? 


You got me.  One for you.

The 72-hour ceasefire between Israel Hamas lasted 90 minutes.  And you expect me to offer a solution for peace.   

 :offtopic:

The Egypt-Israel Peace Treaty of 1977 suggests that peace can be reached.   I was in Egypt three years after the 1973 war and Egypt's eviction of the Russians.  The country was in shambles.  Egypt recognized that something new had to be attempted, so why not give peace a chance.  It cost Sadat his life, compelled the Arab league to shun Egypt, cost the US taxpayers a ton in aid, etc.  However, peace continues today because both countries  benefit from it. 

For sure Israel has some of the blame for the lack of peace with some other neighbors, especially the Palestinians.   It is not just about Israel.  Hot spots  independent of Israel are always aflame or simmering throughout the Middle East, either internally or between neighbors.


We can not walk away.  Many countries are friendly with the US.  Plus there is this thing called oil.   New hot spots inevitably appear, and things do change, sometimes turning on a dime   In 1976 I first went to Iran.  Iran was friendly with Israel; there were even travel posters advertising "See Israel."  Today Iran is dedicated to the total destruction of Israel. 

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #446 on: August 01, 2014, 11:51:53 AM »
LOL...apples to apples? Do you happen to have evidence of that which you're blathering about? No...and not from UkraineInvestigation either. LOL.


Perhaps you originally hail from some third-world country where lies and corruption are the norm like they are in Russia; so you buy into the extreme propaganda and conspiracy theories.

Most of the civilized World does not, and they are not buying any of the lies and posturing by Russia or buffoons like you. 

Offline Drew

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #447 on: August 01, 2014, 12:19:47 PM »
How can any decent person be supporting or trying to give cover to Russian terrorists operating in eastern Ukraine ?

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #448 on: August 01, 2014, 12:58:48 PM »
Unlike you, I will admit to being wrong.  However, I am not wrong in this instance

Bullsh!t!

Quote
To review, I corrected your sensationalized and selective post.  First you ignore, and now you claim to refute my corrections.  And you plop in a bunch of links to make it appear as if your claim holds water. 

Please, let us be more vigorous when subjecting my following corrections to scrutiny:

Still true.  Civilian casualties are inevitable.  It is tragic yet we should not be shocked unless it is something grossly negligent or intentional..

Still true.  I reluctantly watched your video thinking it might show a decapitated person.  None shown and in fact it introduces nothing new, so why waste our time.
You can zoom closer if you'd like or play the video in slow motion over and over again to glut your appetite.

@ 2:01 in the video. Again @ 2:50, 3:12 & 3:56:
Maybe you can even convince the family of this woman how they *should not be shocked* that these things happen.
 
What was interesting to note reading RWD during that time was the knee-jerk reactions coming from our boasting of bands of ex-military personnel within our membership showing blatant bias and absence of objectivity that added nothing more than just exacerbate wrongful condemnation and unnecessary confusion. I am specifically citing cc3 and BillyB. I can only hope MOBers like these aren't representative of our entire military personnel. We'd be in trouble more than we thought.

Read it all here: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17626.msg368627#msg368627


Quote
..Still true.   You provided a facebook link and a release by some organization called "Ukraine Investigation."  Do you really consider these  as "reputable news agencies?" In the original thread, I first said these were not RPGs. 

Really GQ, you need to bring more substance to these discussions rather than just your immediate impressions.  Otherwise, this become tedious.

You are as dense as that little chihuahua side kick you are fostering.

You took an excerpt in my dialogue with Fathertime about *media blackouts* and the obvious lack of balanced reporting in our world today. You don't believe me, the threads are still there.

I offered examples of this by citing the Israel/Gaza conflict AND the Lugansk bombing by Kiev's forces on the State Administration building, both of which resulted in civilian deaths and both of which with nary the usual media overload because it runs counter to the narrative.

The gist of my point was the continued support and arming of our benevolent nation to the puppet governments currently involved in these conflicts. Israel and Ukraine.

I classified the violence in Gaza as 'genocide' with which you challenged that the only source of such classification are given by Hamas. I told you you are wrong - YOU ARE - and ushered you to referential sources.

I also cited little to no media coverage of the Lugansk indiscriminate bombing by Kiev's government on the State Administration building that resulted in civilian casualties. You contend you don't recall any *reputable* sources blaming it on the rebels and was too obtuse to recognize the exchange I had with FT to begin with IS exactly THE POINT. There were NO coverage of that *little incident* either pro and con. The media BLACKED it out because it run counter to the narrative.

Even in Kiev, the strings of reporting literally denied government responsibility suggesting instead the attack was caused by the militant.

At 4:47, this is what it reported:
Quote
Five people were killed in an airstrike on the Luhansk state administration building, the militants said.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/five-killed-in-airstrike-on-luhansk-regional-administration-350351.html

@ 5:29:
Quote
The explosion at Luhansk Regional State Administration building occurred inside the building, there was no bombing from the outside or from aircraft, Radio Svoboda has reported, referring to spokesman of the anti-terrorist operation Oleksiy Dmytrashkovsky.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/dmytrashkovsky-ukrainian-air-force-didnt-bomb-luhansk-regional-administrations-building-350358.html

@ 8:57:
Quote
Acting chief of the Main Department for Personnel Policy of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Oleksandr Rozmaznin said that explosion at the building of Luhansk Regional State Administration on Monday was caused by the bombarding by the unmanned aerial vehicle from the building of the regional office of Security Service of Ukraine (SBU), which is used by the militants.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/rozmaznin-militants-organize-explosion-in-luhansk-regional-admin-building-350381.html

Quote
You mentioned in the RWD thread a year ago that Tsarnaev was being framed as part of some conspiracy.    So you now have evidence supporting your very odd thinking.  What's next, Aaron Hernandez is being framed?  (unfortunately he will probably be acquitted).  Maybe something in defense of your neighbor Donald Sterling?

No, no...don't tuck your silly tail too quick as it might slap your sagging butt. I'm not as senile as you.

*I* asked you if you have any evidence (irrefutable, I would hope) that directly incriminate the kid with the bombing because I contested then that whatever it was/were they had were inconclusive. It doesn't surprised me one bit that it had been over 2 years and this still has not being tried and convicted (presumably still searching for conclusive evidence tying him to the charges since likely the ones they have are the same garbage they always had - NOTHING) if the evidences were in fact *conclusive*.

Your admission to being wrong here : _______________________________
                   
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 01:11:53 PM by GQBlues »
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #449 on: August 01, 2014, 01:06:42 PM »

Perhaps you originally hail from some third-world country where lies and corruption are the norm like they are in Russia; so you buy into the extreme propaganda and conspiracy theories.

Most of the civilized World does not, and they are not buying any of the lies and posturing by Russia or buffoons like you.

You left me no doubt.  :P
Quote from: msmob
1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
2. The 2018 Camp Fire and Woolsey California wildfires are forests burning because of global warming.
3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

 

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