FSU Realities: How does it Affect East-West Relations

[WmGO]

I tried to steer the Krimster Ukraine Warning thread this
direction but was not quite succesful. So I am starting
a new one here.

I will begin by pasting the voice of the recently departed
Doug Salem:

************************************************************



If you ever get real close to some Russians, as in married to one (and her extended family), you will also come to see that the backwardness and political dysfunctionality has resulted in a lot of personal/psychological baggage manifesting itself in the people. The most permeating and dysfunctional thing in my opinion, is the lack of any real ethics. It's the root of most of FSU's problems, and problems with everything that Russians come into contact with, including electing public officials, industry and business, nuclear power stations, damaged submarines and dead sailors, the Russian "mail order bride" business and relationships between Russian wives and their Western husbands. Those countries and their people are never going to emerge from the dark cloud under which they exist until they develop a real intrinsic sense of, and respect for, ethics.

In trying to pull back in line with the topic of this thread - my 7-year marriage to a Russian woman has really caused me to be more conscious of my own sense of ethics, and to appreciate the highly ethical (relatively speaking) society and upbringing I unwittingly enjoyed by virtue of being an American citizen. I think I had just taken it all for granted up until now. Even though I had spent a lot of time in ethically-rotten third world countries. And not just as a tourist mind you, but with close personal and business relationships with citizens of those countries. (Including casual girlfriends and lovers. I guess all I really cared about were those countries' waves.)

Now, being married to somebody from such a country is different. Much different. And having a child with somebody from such a country seems to have amplified this change or realization in me. I guess it's because I love them so much and really want them to have good, healthy, happy lives with futures and opportunities. Also, because I have seen firsthand what just seven years of real opportunity and freedom has done for Olga.

It would be nice to think you can easily separate the people - their good qualities - from the messed up countries and their bad aspects; but it's not that easy. The two are painfully intertwined. This usually manifests itself as what we refer to as the "cultural differences" and "strong-willed" women on this group.

I just got a big dose of those two things with our recent house-guests for the last month - Olga's parents. Yes, they are great people, but to a limit. They are also extremely "messed up" (by our standards) in many areas because of where they come from. By "areas," I mean certain ways of thinking (lack of ethics being just one, ideas about child and human development being another), health and nutrition, and more. It's really complicated. And I can't just blow them off or dismiss them. Hell, they're family now.

The fact that Olga's managed to overcome a lot of her cultural obstructions to improving her life helps and provides a certain amount of insulation, but I can see that we will never be completely free of the "cloud." Ever.

Again, getting back to the topic - this is what has changed in me. I am now much more conscious of what it takes to keep such a cloud from engulfing a person, a family, an entire country. Free thinking, individualism, and a system that promotes and protects it. That's why I urge newbies to make a hard and clear distinction between this "strong-willed Russian women" excuse and Russian women who really have the potential to lead and contribute to happy, positive and productive lives in the West. 

DS

[WmGO]

And another from Doug Salem:

************************************************************


I used to be apolitical and just a little bit unpatriotic. Since marrying Olga, I have done a 180 and now find myself to be extremely patriotic, with strong poilitcal views. This really surprised me. (and it would really surprise my friends and family, who don't know about it yet.)

I think it's because I have now witnessed firsthand how the differences between freedom-justice and tyranny-corruption can positively change the life of somebody who can think out of the tyranny-corruption box but never had the chance. I'm talking about my Russian wife, Olga of course.

I had seen movies, read books, and heard stories about people who had undergone this transformation - defectors, etc. I even have a good friend who defected from the USSR during the Cold War. But when it's somebody you love, somebody you are so close to, it's different. And then having a child with that person - having strong and personal vested interests in the futures of two individuals. It caused me to wake up and really appreciate what we've got here in the U.S.

Subsequently, over the same period I dropped all of my romantic notions and naivete about Eastern Europe, FSU, etc. Like so many newbies, I thought it was a really great place when I first went. "Oh, look at the wonderful architecture!" Oh, look at all of the beautiful women!" "A day at the Dacha!" "Oh, look at these quaint customs and superstitions." "Oh, look old-fashioned family values!" Etc. But over the years the layers peeled, reality set in,  the "gee-whiz" cloud dissipated, and the rotten core slowly exposed itself. Well, that was a real wake-up call too.

DS

************************************************************

These two quotes can be found in the "How has your relationship changed you" thread in the experienced forum.

[Jumper]

WmGo-
Doug's thoughts would closely mirror my own
with an exception..
He only highlights the US, and the  US is not the only place with such personal and business ethics and freedoms.
It also omits that most Americans are also quite naturally self absorbed in their own situation.Most people on the planet are.(often quite understandably)

I do completely agree that at the core in the FSU, a certain social mentality, really undermines everything, and what the countries "could" be, and that it is very unlikely to change.

It will likely effect any WM searching for a partner there.
Its a big point that guys should think about, and it will help them in their searches?


I know this post could turn quite controversial,
 but does anyone remember Donna Pedro's advice (on another forum)
to not look in a landfill for  a diamond?


WOW did she take a lot of flack for that one..!!!

some of it deservedly ,
 as an individuals personal integrity is not bound by the situation they live in, or thier nationality..

but some of her point was quite valid ?


She was pointing out that  most successful WM ,
would not dream to ever search the inner city streets of a major US city for a wife,
or a lot of the very successful WM on these forums
wouldn't likely date a young local 7 eleven clerk,
(even though there could be  a woman of great character come from there, its is a situation that discourages that?)
yet essentially often do the same in the FSU?
or wonder when they have "differences"  or "problems" when they do so?

just on a social level , ofen the dating is not on the same neutral ground ,
as it would be in a more natural setting within the confines of each's culture.
then throw in the cultural divide as well.. ?


Regardless of where within either society you date or search,

The overall cultural mentality is often very different.Just a basic mindset.

It always important in a relationship that you match on the fundamentals,

i think how challenging that can be to find in a cultures that are almost completely alien,,to each other is often glossed over.   



I hate to point to specific members as examples, but i know she's a big girl and can handle it.
Its just my opinion of course ,  but Anastasia , matches many WM because of her fundamentally Christianity,or just her mentality.I am unsure why,but her morals and ethics more closely match the "average" WM, his background and mentality, than  many  RW a guy might meet.

I think reading the forum men can often see RW that are mentally a good match for a WM.
(there are many examples, but I'll again single one out - lily)

 i would contend they are not *typical* of a RW,that  a man just traveling there will meet.
Their individual personalities or mentalities are very western in fundamental mindset,while retaining the strenghts of thier Russian culture as well?
 

I hope my post isn't taken wrong,
This is not to bash a culture or a nationality,
or to point to some  "right" or "wrong" within those cultures.

it is simply my belief that the fundamental mindset of people in these  cultures
is often very different!!

looking for someone that more closely matches yourself, would be a better chance of both short term and long term success right?


Posters may then rightfully ask, then why look around the world for someone with the same mentality as in the west?


i wouldn't have a good answer !!
thats the truth.

(keep in mind i intentionally wanted someone with a more western thought process and mentality though, so perhaps I'm odd lol)

since i dint have a good answer I'll still try to give a few :

1. that while looking for someone more similarly matched in "western" outlook,
they will likely still hold on to much of their own culture,
 and while some of that *might* be a burden between a couple,
some of it may be very fundamentally good.

2. simply broadening your dating pool ,no matter where,
still increases your odds of finding that one very special person.

[Gator]

It bewilders me that this thread has received so little attention.  It is an excellent opportunity to discuss and understand the nature of RW.  AJ recognized the value and wrote an excellent post.

Russia is a sinister society.  Corruption and tyranny can foster nothing other.  Pardon me for bashing Russia, yet it is what it is.  This certainly has affected its citizens, including its women.  Women have been betrayed, trust damaged, life is difficult, little is secure, etc.

I will not dwell on the bad and even average women one can encounter in the FSU.  They are there.  Beware!   Rather, I would like to focus on finding a diamond - the good hearted woman. 

I met some obviously good women in Russia and Ukraine, not in large numbers but in larger numbers than one would expect given the rotten society they live in.  Just think about it – there are RW whose inner compass is so strong that it has prevented them from taking the ethically corrupt path of the majority. 

It takes time to understand if your woman is good-hearted.  Yet, such women give that impression when you first meet them - they are ladies.  Each day with them gets better, verified how she: 

-  treats strangers,
-  chooses friends with good character,
-  loves her family,
-  resolves a conflict with you,
-  forgives your mistakes, etc.

My point is that if you find a good woman in such a rotten society, one indeed has found a heart of gold.  Be good to her and consider yourself very lucky.

[mischief]

Rotten society???? What??? Define "rotten society", will you please !!
Sure, economically and politically FSU has nothing to be proud about ... and poverty doesn't bring the best out of people... but rotten society!!??? if they operate different doesn't mean they are rotten... I believe that values, spirit and good heart of our people in given circumstances is something to admire and boast of... any person living comfortably can be decent... but not many would remain decent in poor and misery... you have better luck to meet sincere thoughtful compassionate person in FSU than anywhere in the world... our people is our treasure...

[mischief]

People and their values are the same evewhere, no matter what society they live in... The US is a good example of how people from different cultures with different heritage can successfully operate accepting their differences...
If you marry an AW from a disfunctional family with abusive parents or who have drinking problems, you probably can foresee what you are getting yourself into ...and yet people are so different even if they are growing in the same family and environment...

Don't make poor choice and then blame the "rotten society" she used to live in if something is not working...  Instead of finding the excuses why your marriage falls apart , make an effort and work on your relationship... the more accepting you are the easier to work it through...
and those of you who don't believe in compromises and live in their own little world and what you have on your mind that is the way it should be, should NOT even consider looking for a spouse in FSU!

[Faux Pas]

I agree, an excellent topic.

Unfortunately for me I am just beyond the starting out stage and have no first hand knowledge of the question posed. I am however anxious to see the answers and subsequent questions and those answers as well. Appears to be a good educational thread.

Gator,
Mischief seems to have taken some offense at the term "rotten society" and possibly rightfully so with good example. Do you stand firm on your description?

[BC]

I don't agree with everything Doug said, but I can relate to his thoughts very well.

I've often mentioned that those applying for their first passport need not apply for a RW.  Doug's posts should indeed be taken as a warning.

I have stated in the past that my marriage to a RW has been and continues to be one of the most difficult challenges I have faced in my entire life - and I wasn't even looking for a RW. We did however make our bed and are doing our damnedest to make the best out of it, our relationship growing every day.

As Doug seems to say, get ready for a huge wake up call. The 'onion' he mentions will likely be quite real for most and but won't even have a chance to peel it until you are well into marriage - and half the hide you peel will be your own.

... to be continued.

[smartcat]

Instead of generalizing so much philosophical issues about the Russians, Doug would better start this philosophical issue with "MY IN-LAWS HAVE COME..."

[mischief]

For me the scariest thing in humanity is ignorance and stupidity combined... you can not explain anything to these people, can not convince, can not have constructive dialog...
On a russian forum there is a woman... I don't know her personally but by what she has been posting for three or more years one can get a good impression what the person she is... My impression is that she is ignorant woman with no manners and no education (not bad looking though ... for the most part all she is writing about is her problems with her husband and her adjustment here... basically anything she doesn't understand and not used to is wrong... and every single topic of hers will start with something like: "These stupid americans don't know anything"...  she will make her conclusions about the country based on any negative single incident she encounters in the US... and since she gives the detailed description of her fights with her husband, everything sounds like : " you, stupid americans do not know what you are doing! you, stupid, russians will never understand!"
Just an example how easy to blame cultural differences even if they have nothing to do with their problems...

I think looking for spouse in FSU one should apply the same standards he applies when he is looking in his own country... for example, I would never marry a person who has been divorced or comes from a divorced family, doesn't matter what country and society he lives in...

[Gator]

Faux Pas asked,

Gator, Mischief seems to have taken some offense at the term "rotten society" and possibly rightfully so with good example. Do you stand firm on your description?

My intent was to focus on the positive aspects of a good RW, particularly how she is that way given her environment.  I though the Ukraine bashing had been done in the Krimster thread.

But now that you ask, Russia is a rotten society.  If “rotten” is too harsh, let me state some facts.

CORRUPTION AND DEMOCRACY

What better measure of decay!  For 2007  Russia ranked 115th and 125th, respectively, of 150 countries (including Afghanistan). 

Source:  http://www.worldaudit.org/corruption.htm


QUALITY OF LIFE

You say there is more to being rotten than corruption and democracy.  OK,  Economist ranked Russia 105th of 111 countries with regard to QUALITY OF LIFE.  To give some indication of where Russia stands:

-   Botswana 104th
-   Haiti 110th (and it is a dreadful place) (Afghanistan was not ranked).
-   Columbia 54th (the drug capital)

http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/QUALITY_OF_LIFE.pdf

Variables included:

1. Material well being - GDP per person.

2. Health - Life expectancy at birth.

3. Political stability and security - Source: Economist Intelligence Unit

4. Family life - Divorce rate.

5. Community life - Dummy variable taking value 1 if country has either high
rate of church attendance or trade-union membership; zero otherwise.

6. Climate and geography - Latitude, to distinguish between warmer and colder climes.

7. Job security - Unemployment rate.

8. Political freedom - Average of indices of political and civil liberties.

9. Gender equality - Ratio of average male and female earnings.

Enough said.  That is why I find it remarkable to find good-hearted women in Russia, and there are many of them.  Knowing their environment, each is a "heart of gold."  So let us focus on why this is so.  I believe family values have much to do with it, as there is not much else.

[Daveman]

You know, I read page after page of examples of FSU 'dysfunctionality" in the other thread and some points here in this one and I still don't buy into that concept.  Their society functions just fine within a different set of rules. Scoff at that all you like, but until we GET it, we will continue to have dismal success rates with relationships leading to marriage and with successful marriages themselves.  We have 3000 some odd members, with how many actually happily married? how many have already divorced?  Rhetorical questions for sure.  To understand and accept is far superior than conversion.  There is still very little negative I have seen written which either does NOT exist in the west, or does not exist in an alternate form.  Problems are problems. Period.  Their society is in its infancy and will suffer tremendous growing pains.

Many of the ideas put forth have reminded me of the evangelists who just 'know' that all other religions are 'bad', their way is 'THE' way, and anyone else is an evil sinner destined for hell.  Not to take this thread into a religious direction, but the mentality is the same. 

There are many things that could be better for the people of the FSU, no question about it some things could be much better. If these ladies are products of their dishonest, dysfunctional, treacherous, apathetic, whatever environment then certainly there are not many jewels among them.  Might as well go to the high crime areas of any big city of the USA and troll with a few hundred dollar bills and catch whatever dysfunctional woman sinks her treacherous claws into the bait.  After all, there are many fine looking ones who completely blow away, beauty wise, 95% of all FSU ladies, and are equal to the rest.  So why bother? We can rescue them for a terrible existence right here where we live -- from their very corrupt and crime infested areas.

I really do believe that the dismal success rates of East/West marriages are due in a very large measure to the mentality displayed in these two threads. The idea of "mine is right/good, yours is bad/wrong" will kill you almost every time.  Learning the rules IMO is one of the key ingredients of a) understanding your girl and HOW she thinks and perceives, and b) helping her to adjust to playing by the new rules of a different variation of the game of life.  Our ways/culture/rules seem just as ridiculous and (obviously) foreign to them as theirs does to us. Western Realities:  how does it affect East-West Relations?

Dave

[I/O]

Rotten society???? What??? Define "rotten society", will you please !!

OK, I'll take a shot at a description, if not definition. However, before I do, Mischief, your early response is understandable and I expected, when I clicked on this thread and read the opening posts to find the Russian women completely exploding in defence, maybe that will come yet? However, your response, much as I understand it, confirms one of the main things I have noticed about Russia/Russians over the last years and my wife, although starting to flex now, is similar, Russians simply cannot handle criticism of there country calmly. That my friends is one of the number one reasons why Russia has and will never change markedly at the root level.

Definition of rotten: Rotten, from "Rotting", in laymans terms meaning decaying from within because of some infection. In this example A country or culture where..........

1) Corruption permeates everything that everyone does everyday to some extent.
2) Organised crime is a part of almost every business or business transaction everywhere.
3) Children are handed to orphanages in number and often taken little if any care of.
4) Children are abandoned in number in hospitals at birth and sleep naked, uncovered on plastic sheets.
5) Organised crime is not only tolerated but fostered by Government.
6) Work ethics are often lacking.
7) Where people and opinion are suppressed by force.

The above is a small sample of what I have noticed over the last few years and it is confirmed in history I have read, written by Russian people. People who have done well, but can see the reality and desire change. None of this suggests Russia is all bad.

Russia/Russians don't accept criticism well, regardless whether it is constructive or destructive. This blanket defensiveness manifests itself in a justification as to why things are how they are which seemingly in the opinion of many Russians is everyones else's fault other than Russia/Russians. Russia, (like America or Australia or any other country) is in the position it is today because of choices Russia made. No other reason. Of relatively recent times Russians put Stalin in power, nobody else. Russians accepted and participated in the horrors that followed. Russians hope for change in Russia but do little about it. Russians put later governments in power, nobody else. Russia's financial/spending choices caused the breakup of the SU.

Russia often blames others for these events and certainly she was subjected to pressure, but is not any other country subjected to pressure? The reality is we live in a world of pressure. Some countries handle it well and some don't.

Before anyone jumps to the counter criticism, I am well aware of many of my own countries imperfections and there is much I love about Russia, however DS's posts are telling and IMO accurate. These things do effect the very essence of how a person will think and respond to something different.

Nevertheless, I wonder is anyone else reminded of a couple of threads a few months back, Whats wrong with America and a shorter thread whats wrong with Russia? I wonder will this go the same way?

Short anecdote: My now wife and I travelling on a mini bus in Russia 18 months or so back. I am involved in public transport so I do notice driving standards, or in Russia, lack there of. The particular driver of this bus was a standout. He was a superb driver by any measure. We were sitting in the front seats. Upon departing, I complimented him on his driving and paid him a small tip. My wife was livid...!! Why on earth would I do that? I explained to her that she had often complained about the poor driving standards on mini buses. The guys are paid pittance and had no reason to improve. One small token of appreciation from one passenger might just ring a bell with this guy to keep his standards high. The point being, everything starts with ONE. She "informed" me that is not done in Russia with a few more encouraging words to desist the practice. Now to the irony. I never tip taxi drivers here at home because they are paid very well. She travelled by taxi a few days back and proudly tipped the driver. I asked why? She bluntly and dismissively informed me that "He is good and maybe he will keep good"...!!! The point being, yes these women do have enough in them to see differences and embrace change. That my friends is IMO at the very heart of why these ladies are the best.........................

How does any of that effect our relationship? It contributes to ensuring no boredom. 

I/O

[Gator]

Daveman wrote,

The idea of "mine is right/good, yours is bad/wrong" will kill you almost every time.

Agree.  The best of both worlds can be enjoyed if the husband and wife both have an open mind.  

Their society is in its infancy and will suffer tremendous growing pains.

Disagee.  They have had Christianity for over 1000 years.  Are you saying a few years of Capitalism is more important?

Might as well go to the high crime areas of any big city of the USA and troll

If you spend time in the ghetto, you will see two types of people.  One type - the street people who give the place a bad name.  The other type - solid families living in the tenements and trying to do their best, frequently functional against the odds.

[Gator]

I/O,

Interesting observations.  It sounds as if both of you are respectful of the other's culture. I particularly enjoyed:

How does any of that effect our relationship? It contributes to ensuring no boredom.

If there is one thing that keeps my relationship going, it is the fact that we do not bore each other.  The cultural differences make it even more interesting.  Then add the stimuli of her children...life is wonderful.

[Daveman]

Disagee.  They have had Christianity for over 1000 years.  Are you saying a few years of Capitalism is more important?

Christianity is irrelevant, IMO, of course...

The largest 'problem' I see with the FSU is lack of individual freedom.  The growing pains of freedom is what I meant.  Self determination cannot come to fruition without extirpating corruption and those who practice and benefit from it -- from the top down.  This is rarely achieved without some serious sacrifice and pain.  I think they have the guts to do it, but that slave mentality fro the past hundred years of conditioning clouds the vision of the real enemies and even more important - WHY they are enemies.

[Daveman]

Excellent observations I/O... I don't want to detract from the excellent post.. but this line just completely cracked me up...

How does any of that effect our relationship? It contributes to ensuring no boredom. 

I/O

completely hilarious.. and even more so because I'd bet it's absolutely true... 

Dave

[mischief]

OK, I'll take a shot at a description, if not definition. However, before I do, Mischief, your early response is understandable and I expected, when I clicked on this thread and read the opening posts to find the Russian women completely exploding in defence, maybe that will come yet? However, your response, much as I understand it, confirms one of the main things I have noticed about Russia/Russians over the last years and my wife, although starting to flex now, is similar, Russians simply cannot handle criticism of there country calmly. That my friends is one of the number one reasons why Russia has and will never change markedly at the root level.

I find it amusing... try to criticize french ways of doing things and you will hear far less pleasant responce... i haven't met a person from any nation who will take calmly criticism of their country... and just for information: I'm not russian but polish with catholic upbringing ... I lived most of my life in Belarus therefore consider FSU my country as well...

[I/O]

I find it amusing... try to criticize french ways of doing things and you will hear far less pleasant responce

You are so right............the French..........no I won't distract this excellent thread as most here well know my opinion of France/French. Nevertheless I must compliment the French on their perfection of at least one art, putting up the white flag.

this line just completely cracked me up...

completely hilarious.. and even more so because I'd bet it's absolutely true... 

Dave

It was meant to provide a smile. Glad it did.

I/O

[mischief]

With regards to "rotten society"... I am absolutely oppose labeling any nation a rotten society... especially if you have never lived and experience first hand this or the other culture... that's just plain arrogant to me... Different - yes!!! problems, corruption etc. - absolutely!!! Democracy?? your understanding democracy does not necessarily apply for other cultures...
Muslims are taught that the western society is rotten... in Soviet Union we were told the same... why we keep doing that???

[Gator]

Mischief,

You may be Polish, yet you have some RW characteristics.

So what should we call a country that ranks almost at the bottom with regard to corruption, democarcy and quality of life?

Again, the label we give Russian society does not matter.  What is remarkable is the fact that many good hearted RW can be found there given that society's recognized shortcomings.

I believe family values have much to do with it, as there is not much else.

[Gator]

BTW, Mischief, if Russia is not rotten, what do you call the treatment that Poland received for 40+ years when under the Soviet thumb?

I can understand your feelings about rotten being a misnomer because it implies that it has decayed beyond repair, which is not the case.  Another definition of rotten is "morally corrupt."

[I/O]

Muslims are taught that the western society is rotten... in Soviet Union we were told the same... why we keep doing that???

It is called "Forced Control" at the most subtle and rotten level. Russians often criticise western or in particular American democracy, however when one drills down with them, one very often finds it is western or in particular American foreign policy which is at the heart of their complaint. The two are entirely different subjects.

I/O

[Blues Fairy]

My husband and I have had many talks on this topic, as he has a very strong opinion on Russia and its extent of rottenness (btw, he despises the Frenchies, too, and I happen to love their culture and language!!)  Sometimes it's really hard to defend Russia, because the 70 years of Soviet rule DID screw up the morality, efficiency and general civility (the key component of civilization) of the Russian society.  But I can at least show in what ways this society is not a homogeneous mass but a complex, multifaceted structure with its own highs and lows, hardliners and dissidents, intellectuals and boors.  I can also explain how the paternalistic (caring but restrictive) fashion of Soviet upbringing - including family, school, party and Komsomol, workplace - could mold traits of character incompatible with the individualistic Western culture, but in some ways more flexible and civil than those of the latter. 

[krimster]

Yo Tovarische!

We ALL livin' in Amerika! For Real!
Like our German brothers even made like a video to show youse, to help with ya' understandin'
Check this out!


Is it 'cos like in 1968, the movie, "the President's Analyst" sez, "the Soviet Union is becomin' mo and mo like da USA, and like da USA is becomin mo and mo like the Soviet Union"

Ponelle, druzya?  Do yous understand?

Since everyting is relative an allways changin, what's REALLY REAL?

Now I vidish that all youse is a buncha "wicked old geezers", out and about in the CCCP posin as Amerikan corporate gangstas strictly for the purpose of trafficking women back to youse apartment or trailer or whatever, and so here you be tryin to make a virtual posse to aid and abet yur nefarious schemes, but me is on to yous!

See, yous is so bad, even after youse traffick dese po' devs you be wonderin "will dey still be cleanin me underwear after de green card"?

So many questions!

Back in Jamaica me sees an old man who tell de story 'bout de hunters.  See dere be two hunters, one hunter allways be worryin bout what he hunt, how big it be, how good it taste.  While he be worryin, other hunter just go and hunt, cuz he be REAL hunter and him already KNOWS.

So which hunter you boys gonna be?