Why Ukraine ?

[Faux Pas]

Free visas to Zimbabwe too but that doesn't make me want to visit it any more (or less) 

If you are scared to visit Russia because of the political climate both in the U.S. and in Russia okay, I get it. But I can vouch that Russians are not hostile to Americans, the police/militia will not seek you out to harass you because you are a Westerner.

It took me a few trips but I eventually became to feel safer in any sizeable city in Russia than I can in Atlanta, NYC, Houston, SF not to mention Chicago or Detroit and yes I have been to all of those places.

krimster, I have often deferred to you and your expertise on UA and Crimea but apparently your knowledge of Russia and Russians is outdated if ever factual at all. If it was factual I could not tell by my experiences there and it is extensive. I call hyperbole with a heavy dose of bullshit on your claims. Yes the Kremlin has taken over the media and yes some/many Russians are supporting Putin and feeling patriotic but that isn't equating to a hatred/dislike or mistrust of Westerners. Personally I am treated like a king every time I go

[krimster2]

False Move,
   I don’t know where to begin with what you wrote.  first, I’m not “scared” to visit Russia, I’m just pointing out to new guys that the Russian government is making a major effort to manipulate public opinion in Russia to be anti-western and that this may lead to problems, especially if it intensifies.

“This anti-Western propaganda radically changed the atmosphere in the society,” said Lev Gudkov, the director of the Levada Center, the opinion polling firm. “It has become militarist.”  Of course as you probably know the Levada center was just shut down because it accepts western funding, so from now on there will be no independent opinion polls in Russia, and in the future all opinion polls regarding Putin’s popularity will be done by Putin. BTW, in the past Levada’s opinion polls on Putin showed much different numbers than Putin’s opinion polls on Putin.

source:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/russias-anti-us-sentiment-now-is-even-worse-than-it-was-in-soviet-union/2015/03/08/b7d534c4-c357-11e4-a188-8e4971d37a8d_story.html

The Moscow Times has a good article summarizing the style of the propaganda, and I can verify that what they wrote is true having watched it myself when I used to be able to watch NTV (owned by GazProm)

http://themoscowtimes.com/articles/why-russia-is-no-1-in-anti-americanism-31371

From what I personally saw watching Russian TV the anti-Western content is much more insidious than the article states, and is universally present including comedy shows, games shows, etc.

This is far from being hyperbole and bullshit. Unfortunately you chose the wrong aspect to focus on.  My main concern wouldn’t be about physical safety in Russia, and yeah Kazan is certainly safer than Chicago, my concern would be what the attitude of a Russian woman who has been immersed in this propaganda for the past several years be like when she comes to the US.  Underneath her cute smile, will she consider herself a Russian patriot, how would you feel being married to someone who hates your country because they’ve been constantly brainwashed into feeling this way?  In previous posts I’ve explained how over the course of a long marriage you could easily spend several thousands of dollars on Russian travel visas, maybe there might be some guys (I mean I’m just sayin’) who don’t think it’s OK to hand over thousands of their hard earned dollars to the Russian government (sounds like you’re ok with it though), so these are my points, something for new guys to consider IMHO

[Gator]

We can complain because we don't want the truth to be told.  It is a much happier world when truths are not known.  I don't like to watch the daily news for the same reason.  Better to watch cartoons.

With such a gift for sarcasm, you could be a Russian.     


I realize you may not find humor in this, so out of respect I did not give it an emoticon. 

[Boethius]

Help me understand this.  Are you saying many of today's anti-American messages bombarding the Russians  in their  media have an element of truth? 

Sure.  It isn't the full truth, but one must always look at things from the other side.

If so, how can ML, Krimster, etc.  complain about these stories creating anti-American sentiment?  If the stories about America have some truth to them, can it be the same for the anti-Ukrainian stories? 

I don't think ML is arguing that.  He's arguing Russians are heartless killers.


The Ukrainian stories aren't true because they emphasize "nationalists".  The Russians can't rely on the truth in Ukraine, because their system and their corruption is just as bad.  So, everything becomes the fault of "ultra nationalists".  Russians can't "speak their language" despite the fact my husband is currently in Odesa, where he is speaking Russian, not Ukrainian, daily.   He was first in Kyiv, and will be returning there, and says he spoke mostly Russian (he will answer a person in whatever language they address him).

My point is that the issue is not black and white.  The Russian media may indeed  paint grey as black when many of us consider it white. 

I agree to an extent.  However, we have a sometime poster here who told her American husband at the time of invasion that if he ever criticized Russia, she would pack her bags and go "home".

The central part of the  Soviet propaganda was also true - we did want to destroy communism.  I was taught at an early to fear the CCCP, even doing nuclear warfare drills. 

No.  The West wanted to contain communism.  Furthermore, it was never a class war, which is what the Soviets asserted.

This hostility continued, albeit to a lesser degree, up to the collapse of the CCCP.  One of the last operations was arming the mujahedeen in the late 1980s.  This was not a humanitarian mission; it was a large, complicated, covert operation done to a) stop expansion of communism and b)  kill Russians.   The part about "killing Russians" comes from  Charlie Wilson's War, a great read authored by a Sixty Minutes producer.

It was intended to kill their economy, rather than individual Russians.

[Faux Pas]

False Move,
   I don’t know where to begin with what you wrote.  first, I’m not “scared” to visit Russia, I’m just pointing out to new guys that the Russian government is making a major effort to manipulate public opinion in Russia to be anti-western and that this may lead to problems, especially if it intensifies.


This is far from being hyperbole and bullshit. Unfortunately you chose the wrong aspect to focus on.  My main concern wouldn’t be about physical safety in Russia, and yeah Kazan is certainly safer than Chicago, my concern would be what the attitude of a Russian woman who has been immersed in this propaganda for the past several years be like when she comes to the US.  Underneath her cute smile, will she consider herself a Russian patriot, how would you feel being married to someone who hates your country because they’ve been constantly brainwashed into feeling this way?  In previous posts I’ve explained how over the course of a long marriage you could easily spend several thousands of dollars on Russian travel visas, maybe there might be some guys (I mean I’m just sayin’) who don’t think it’s OK to hand over thousands of their hard earned dollars to the Russian government (sounds like you’re ok with it though), so these are my points, something for new guys to consider IMHO

C'mon Krimster. No point in getting juvenile name calling because we disagree. You're bigger than that. As for the rest, the Russian Government has always and continually attempted to manipulate public opinion inside and outside Russia. Nothing new there guy. The media was 100% controlled prior to Glasnost and perception was that it loosened up but it wasn't totally after and now it's 100% gubmint owned again. Nothing new there. We've had Russian TV in my house the first 5 years or so that I married a Russian. She wanted it discontinued and that was before Putin took back control of the media. I have news for you most of it was government controlled then.

Many Russians (certainly not all or most) recognize the propaganda. My MIL is not one of them. An old Babushka from the Soviet era that served in WWII believes everything she sees on it. Her two daughter quite the opposite does not believe a word of it. I say that to point out to you, there is truly a mixed bag not the stereo type you and ML seem to believe in. Far from it.

Travel visas are an inconvenient expense when traveling. Pisses me off to no end yet I pay them anyway. Visas to the U.S cost money as well, were you aware of that? In fact Russia raised their visas prices to closer coincide with the average Russians expense to visit the U.S.. Of course Diplomatic and other political visas for the elite are free, did you know that?

I only point out to you these points because the newbie reading your posts also needs to know this, my point of view and experience. Any westerner going to Russia or Ukraine for a possible mate could find that patriot you talk about or they could fine a gem of a woman as I did. It's a mixed bag and everyone there isn't drinking the kool-aid

[krimster2]

“C'mon Krimster. No point in getting juvenile name calling because we disagree”

it is vous who calls himself “Faux Pas”, perhaps a more accurate translation would be “false step” instead of “false move”, but I am merely translating your profile from Francaise to Anglais,  mon ami

“You're bigger than than that”.  Oui, n'est-ce pas, it is true, that this is what many of the mademoiselle have said in my regard,

“Travel visas are an inconvenient expense when traveling. Pisses me off to no end yet I pay them anyway.”

Tres bon!  However, as I have said when traveling to Ukraine I have paid not one centime of visa monsieur, not one, so I have not had this feeling of being how you say “pisses me off to no end”, which at first after a simple lexical translation I thought meant utilizing the pissoir while standing on the corner, upside down, but after more careful consideration I understand it is a form of colloquial Anglaise which means “to be very angry”, traveling to Ukraine does not provide me with this feeling that traveling to Russia supplies to you, which is monsieur precisely my point!

“Many Russians (certainly not all or most) recognize the propaganda.”

Oui, this to monsieur is precisely my point!  One may not always know in Russia who is the enlightened one and who is not, or to what degree, remember the great American philosopher Clint Eastwood once said, “there is some bad in all good men, and some good in all bad men”, so no one is ever entirely good monsieur.   but once again, I must say that in traveling within Ukraine, one will not have the problem of Putin’s propaganda, so it appears that in our mutual comparison of Russia and Ukraine, that Ukraine is more virtuous, at least in regard to the issues we have both just described, I would in general advise choosing virtue over vice, “good”, it is said, “is better than evil, because it is nicer”

“Any westerner going to Russia or Ukraine for a possible mate could find that patriot you talk about or they could fine a gem of a woman as I did.”

I can find no fault with your words monsieur, however when I read them the image that comes to my mind is of a pale shaking hand twirling a revolver cylinder, cocking the hammer and resting the muzzle against a forehead glistening with sweat.  why do this?  when you squeeze the trigger, you may hear a muffled “click”, or you may ... not.  In Ukraine you do not need to play this game at all monsieur, and you can harvest a gem as equally fine as any that can be harvested in Roo-see-ya.  He who has ears may listen...

[Gator]

I don't think ML is arguing that.  He's arguing Russians are heartless killers.

Maybe Russians are more sensitive than we are to being surrounded, especially since the West is the one doing the surrounding.   And to combat it, Russians are more ruthless than we are (now). 

No.  The West wanted to contain communism.  Furthermore, it was never a class war, which is what the Soviets asserted.

It seems to me we wanted to destroy communism, at least in Latin America.  Communist inroads in Latin America were confronted with deadly force.  JFK even tried that in Cuba, but failed at the Bay of Pigs.   Our embargo of Cuba was fairly strong containment medicine as it was designed to strangle their economy, i. e., destroy it.    We were not so nice and neither were the Soviets. 

It was intended to kill their economy, rather than individual Russians.

Yes, the economy of the  CCCP.   Outside such as Afghanistan, which did not have an economy to kill, we wanted as a second goal to kill Russians.  Read the book.  I recall quotes about "wanting to kill Russians soldiers."    Yes, specific individuals were not targeted.  We only did that in CIA operations conducted years earlier in other lands.   

[Anotherkiwi]

AKiwi, Americans can apply directly to the Russian consulate/embassy. The difference is it has to be in person on the designated days at the designated times. They stopped the mail applications 5-6 years ago. There is only 3 embassies in the U.S. and it's a big country. Most folks can't make it to an embassy for a visa so we have to pay a company to do it for us.

Thanks for the clarification.  I thought from people who posted two or three years ago that personal visits weren't possible.  I'm sure I remember someone posting that they had driven for 12 hours (or similar) to get to the Embassy or nearest consulate and weren't allowed to apply.

Even allowing for that, though, I think you guys are getting ripped off just in the visa costs themselves.  The three-year visa certainly seems the way to go if you are definitely going to be making multiple visits.

[Faux Pas]

Thanks for the clarification.  I thought from people who posted two or three years ago that personal visits weren't possible.  I'm sure I remember someone posting that they had driven for 12 hours (or similar) to get to the Embassy or nearest consulate and weren't allowed to apply.

Even allowing for that, though, I think you guys are getting ripped off just in the visa costs themselves.  The three-year visa certainly seems the way to go if you are definitely going to be making multiple visits.

Well it wasn't me but it could have been except I didn't drive 12 hours. I remember a thread along this vein I may have mentioned it. IIRC, there was a window of about 2 years, 2008-2009 (maybe?) that one had pay one of 2 companies to apply for their visa at the embassy. During that time one could not apply directly. I don't remember exactly when that was but I remember using a company (still the same company I use today ironically) during to get my visa and it adding at the time another $130 to the process.

We do have to pay more than most countries for Russian visas but as I mentioned earlier it is a Russian response to the cost of a Russian's visas to the U.S. which is bullshit, too, btw. I have a very good friend, a Russian who has applied twice and both times denied and he's out of that $480 for each time. I see the irony and the bullshit of it all but that doesn't change the fact we "have" to pay it if we are to go.

[krimster2]

"We do have to pay more than most countries for Russian visas but as I mentioned earlier it is a Russian response to the cost of a Russian's visas to the U.S. "

Ukrainians have to pay roughly the same visa prices that Russians do, yet they offer visa free travel to Ukraine for Americans, can you feeeeeeeel the love?

[Faux Pas]

"We do have to pay more than most countries for Russian visas but as I mentioned earlier it is a Russian response to the cost of a Russian's visas to the U.S. "

Ukrainians have to pay roughly the same visa prices that Russians do, yet they offer visa free travel to Ukraine for Americans, can you feeeeeeeel the love?

So who is responsible for that the bad Americans, the evil Russians or the stupid Ukrainians for paying it?

[krimster2]

Obama of course!!!

[Faux Pas]

Of course!

[Boethius]

The Ukraine is having very tough times

Ukraine.  No article preceding the name of the country.

http://www.infoukes.com/faq/the_ukraine/

......but (my experience) Russians (non-politicians).....are very sympathetic to the plight of their "brothers" (my wife's words).......in Ukraine.

Read the comments in Russian newspapers, and you'll see how "sympathetic" many Russians are to Ukrainians.

In the late 1950's....Kruschev......who was "Ukrainian".......gave the Crimean region.......over to Ukraine

Khrushchev was not Ukrainian.  He was an ethnic Russian and, like many ethnic Russians, his parents moved to the Donbas region.  Khrushchev rose through party ranks in Ukraine, particularly after becoming ruthless killer Kaganovich's protege.

As for the transfer, it was not because Khrushchev was a former party official in Ukraine. In the past, the ostensible reason for the transfer was to mark recognition of the 300th anniversary of the Treaty of Pereiaslav.  However, it is more likely that it was tied to something more mundane, administration of a large hydroelectric project, which would end in Crimea (you can look up the Dnipro Cascade of Hydroelectric Stations).  The project was administered in Ukraine, as it was within the Ukrainian FSR, and the move probably was to have smooth regional administration of the entire project from Kyiv, which answered directly to Moscow in Soviet times.

During its history from the late 1950's......Crimea" remained over 80% ethnic Russian. It is as with the American native (indian).......where do you want to "stop' history. 500 years ago.....300 years ago.......100 years ago. Most (educated) Americans agree......native American got "screwed".....in every deal ever made......with the "US government". I agree. Even with non-politicians......solutions are almost impossible for anyone to agree upon......because "someone".......will be hurt. The American settlers who were promised land....and invested "decades" of hard work to build their farms.....to the native Americans......who had "NO" concept of farming......or on a more basic level.......ownership of land. For those who said I lacked "sensitivity" of current issues.....regarding "Ukraine"......I will say.....you are completely wrong. The history of Russia....Ukraine....and all the other FSU satellite countries.......is very complicated.

The above seems to be an apology for the illegal annexation of Crimea.

You may wish to look back a little further in Crimea's history.  At the turn of the century, it was 36% Crimean, 33% Russian.  By 1926, that changed to 42% Russian, 25% Tatar, because of Crimea's role as a revolutionary battleground.  And of course, the big jump in the Russian population was the result of deporting all Tatars from the region.  The point is, that Russian "dominance" does not go as far back as you seem to believe.

But, the issue is not really the ethnic make up of the region, but rather, the manner in which Crimea was seized By Russia.  It was seized contrary to international law.  Ukrainians were beaten.  A few soldiers were killed  Tatars have been beaten and "disappeared" since the takeover.  Ukrainian schools are forbidden.  (Note - Russian schools are not forbidden in Ukraine.)  The international community cannot reward Russia for illegally annexing another country's territory.  That is the real issue.

You also seem to be suggesting that "Russians" "built" Crimea.  Well, parts of it were a summer playground for the Tsars.  There were naval bases, of course (Sevastopol was first established for the Russian Empire by a Scot) agriculture, and vineyards, the latter owned and operated mostly by ethnic Germans.  So I don't know where you are obtaining your information if I am understanding what you are trying to say, which I assume is that Russians "built" Crimea.  If that is the case, that assumption is not entirely accurate.   It also was, and is, relatively underdeveloped by Western standards.  Its largest city, Sevastopol, until the collapse of the USSR was a "closed" city, meaning even Soviet citizens could not enter it without permission, and its population was largely related to the naval base there.  However, Crimea does hold a special place for most Russians, because of the amount of blood spilled there over the centuries.

As for the history, it really is not all that complicated.  If you want to explain why you believe it is complicated, I'm all "ears".

There will never be a "cut and dried" solution. Only compromise.......compromise........and some very wise people......will ever find a solution to this conflict. I am not one of these.

Well, I'll disagree again.

In some ways, the conflict was inevitable, given Svoboda supporters' attempts to steal from thieves the most lucrative businesses in Donbas, and the hardcore proletarian mindset of most residents of the Donbas basin.  But, I contend the war never would have started had Russia not sent military officers and former FSB agents to the region to start a war.  Those were the leaders of the self proclaimed "Donbas Peoples' Republic", and there would have been no war without Russian interference.  What's so complicated about that???

[CaptB]

Boethius,


I can not disagree with your reply. Although Kruschev "was" an ethnic Russian.......legally.......he was a Ukraine citizen. As my wife lets me know....everyday......Russia is made up of distinct ethnicities......geographical regions.........much more distinct......than in America. Sorry "Boethius".......i don't have solutions to all of the worlds problems tonite. I don't critisize your idea here. We are just two people......exchanging ideas. For years my preoccupation was the treatment of native Americans in our country. I can not win in this argument.......either. I have been accused of insensitivity of the Ukraine "situation". My wife says I am too "sensitive.......but I have never felt "weakness" in any situation.......in my life. My wife says that these other folks need to to figure-out whether they want to be "right"........or wether they want to be the "solution"......for such problems. Maybe you have all the answers.........I do not not.


I will continue with my story. I can not solve all of the worlds problems. I can only debate & discuss. Hopefully I can contribute.......positively to such discussions.
Tonite has been an emotional rollercoaster.......for me......such as life.  I will continue with my journey in a few days.........for those interested.


Capt B

[Slumba]

So when Stalin made fun of K~ (I'm a lazy speller this morning) and called him "Mikita" instead of "Nikita", he was trying to say the he knew that K~ wasn't Ukrainian after all, but just pretending?

[Gator]

There has been multiple forced movements of people into and out of Ukraine.   My wife's distant ancestors were Cossacks living in the Dnieper River Valley.     They prospered, so much that the Czars considered them too powerful and a possible future threat.  So many were forced to move to Russia.

The forced movement  started in the 18th C, yet many still remained in the early 20thC.  She and I watched a Soviet film about the Cossacks fighting for Russia in WWI.  Eventually most of those were moved too by the Soviets. 

Her great grandfather was moved to the Chelyabinsk area, where he prospered in forestry.  A distant uncle was concerned about the Soviets, and he eventually made his way to Australia where his descendants live today.   

 

[Boethius]

Boethius,

I can not disagree with your reply. Although Kruschev "was" an ethnic Russian.......legally.......he was a Ukraine citizen.

No, he was a citizen of the Russian Empire, and then of the USSR.  Calling him a citizen of Ukraine is like calling Obama a citizen of Illinois.

Russia is made up of distinct ethnicities......geographical regions.........much more distinct......than in America.

And Ukraine isn't? 

[Boethius]

So when Stalin made fun of K~ (I'm a lazy speller this morning) and called him "Mikita" instead of "Nikita", he was trying to say the he knew that K~ wasn't Ukrainian after all, but just pretending?

I have no idea.  All I know is, Khrushchev was not a Ukrainian.  He could not speak Ukrainian.  He was not born in Ukraine.

[Boethius]

There has been multiple forced movements of people into and out of Ukraine.   My wife's distant ancestors were Cossacks living in the Dnieper River Valley.     They prospered, so much that the Czars considered them too powerful and a possible future threat.  So many were forced to move to Russia.

The forced movement  started in the 18th C, yet many still remained in the early 20thC.  She and I watched a Soviet film about the Cossacks fighting for Russia in WWI.  Eventually most of those were moved too by the Soviets. 

Her great grandfather was moved to the Chelyabinsk area, where he prospered in forestry.  A distant uncle was concerned about the Soviets, and he eventually made his way to Australia where his descendants live today.

Catherine II destroyed the Zaporizhian Sich because she was concerned that: (a)  the Cossacks would align with the Crimean Khanate (which had occurred in the past); (b) the Cossacks were plundering Turkey, with which Russia had a peace treaty (and the Turks held Russia responsible); and (c)  the Cossacks had support of the local populace, which concerned Catherine (independence).  That was the only forced destruction of the Cossacks.  They were allowed to leave and take lands in Russia, as well.

[tfcrew]

Boethius,


I can not disagree with your reply. Although Kruschev "was" an ethnic Russian.......legally.......he was a Ukraine citizen. As my wife lets me know....everyday......Russia is made up of distinct ethnicities......geographical regions.........much more distinct......than in America.

So does mine.

About Khrushchev ....

Kalinovka is a rural locality in Khomutovsky District of Kursk Oblast, Russia, located about 11 kilometers east of the border with Ukraine and only 3 kilometers from the M3 highway. Kalinovka is the birthplace of Nikita Khrushchev. Wikipedia

.......is like calling Obama a citizen of Illinois.

Boe...everybody knows that Obama is Kenyan