Values

[Coulter]

(Too) many men are discussing age difference, how the women look (young, pretty, hot, etc., that is about superficial things)... but very seldom do they discuss on lists or fora about the values they have or they don't have in common with their girlfriend/fiancée/wife...

[Goombah]

So, for what its worth, I recently dropped a 24 yo "model" in favor of a 33 yo "complete woman".  Try that I might, I could not get anything other than emotional fluff from the model - the closest to real data was when I asked her what she wanted to do in the USA.  Her response has have children, but until they arrived work in the garden planting flowers.

The 33 yo want to have children too, but also wants to work on her license so that she can practice psychology which she has her University degree in.

The 24 yo invited me to stay in her flat after 6 letters of about 2-3 fluffy paragraphs each.  I'll be staying in the 33 yo's house after well over a dozen multi-page letters - and that is with a mutual friend vouching for both of us.  I'll be sleeping in her daughters bed.

The 33 yo is strong, independant, and does what it takes to provide a solid upbringing of her daughter - even if that means taking a lesser job a and living in a lesser home so that she has work flexibility and can spend as much time as possible with her.

[Bruce]

Coulter, if I or my wife believed our values were different we never would have gotten married.  Honesty, loyalty, family, sincerety, loving nature, courage,..................they are all there period.   I do not believe I got lucky.  I do not believe I was taken hook line and sinker.  I was patient, looked hard, looked long, learned the lay of the land and took my time.   I firmly believe there are loads of women in Russia with excellent value systems looking for the guy of their dreams - one who will not cheat on them, one who provides enough money for a decent home for family and future or current children, one who is not incessantly drunk, one who understands them as human beings, one who works at their marriage etc. 

[Bruno]

Coulter ... i have the perfect e-book for you... it is a book from a marriage agency... i don't know these marriage agency but the e-book is filled with a lot of information about russian woman... a must read before start your search...

Just right click the link and "save as"...

http://www.love-from-russia.be/book/BooksAboutRussianWomen.pdf

[Coulter]

Coulter, if I or my wife believed our values were different we never would have gotten married.  Honesty, loyalty, family, sincerety, loving nature, courage,..................they are all there period.   I do not believe I got lucky.  I do not believe I was taken hook line and sinker.  I was patient, looked hard, looked long, learned the lay of the land and took my time.   I firmly believe there are loads of women in Russia with excellent value systems looking for the guy of their dreams - one who will not cheat on them, one who provides enough money for a decent home for family and future or current children, one who is not incessantly drunk, one who understands them as human beings, one who works at their marriage etc.  

Yep, that is why your couple is and has every chance to be successful. I firmly believe that if one likes Russia, speaks Russian, is aware of the Russian culture, there will be no problem meeting the right one. On the other hand I think that we are in the small minority...

[Coulter]

Coulter ... i have the perfect e-book for you... it is a book from a marriage agency... i don't know these marriage agency but the e-book is filled with a lot of information about russian woman... a must read before start your search...

Just right click the link and "save as"...

http://www.love-from-russia.be/book/BooksAboutRussianWomen.pdf

Sorry, but you are quite mistaken. First, I do not need any advice to search for I think that every man and every woman is different and that one has to do his own experiences. Second I do not need to "search".
 
I gave a quick look at your link: again that publicity for some agency claiming to be the best ever, the cheapest, etc. I will never allow an agency or anybody for that matter to interfere in one relation. All I ever needed is a phone number and not the one of an agency... and the rest is up to the persons involved.

By the way, to do things alone without an agency will be even cheaper... you do not pay the agency for their services.

[Coulter]

Coulter ... i have the perfect e-book for you... it is a book from a marriage agency... i don't know these marriage agency but the e-book is filled with a lot of information about russian woman... a must read before start your search...

Just right click the link and "save as"...

http://www.love-from-russia.be/book/BooksAboutRussianWomen.pdf

Ok, for the fun, I read through your link and what they say about "Russian women". My conclusion according to my experience: a lot of crap. For instance about religion. :D:D

But maybe Elen will tell you something more precise about this e-book... if she has the patience.

By the way this paper fails to explain why men are drinking so much...

[Bruno]

[line]
I gave a quick look at your link: again that publicity for some agency claiming to be the best ever, the cheapest, etc. I will never allow an agency or anybody for that matter to interfere in one relation. All I ever needed is a phone number and not the one of an agency... and the rest is up to the persons involved.
[line]


Coulter... again a problem from several man... a quick look, they don't take the time to read all and make some bad conclusion....

Yes, it is a e-book from a marriage agency... it is on my site but he promote a other agency... these who have make these free e-book... in these case, i have not judge the agency but only the information inside the book... in regard of your topic : a full analyse of russian woman... read it fully, forget the reference to these agency and make your own conclusion...

The interesting text begin from below the page 3... after the pub... you can find info about RW ...

... and the standart of living, in society, with religion, culture, in the workplace, and attire, and health, and eating, in the home, and domestic finance, and their free time, and nature, and technology, and harmfull habits, and dating culture, and their view of love, and the wedding, and sex, and her husband, and her children, and her extended family, to avoid, and domestic problem.

You ask info about value of russian woman... you find it in these e-book... only jump to the page 3... the e-book is free but loocked... i am not able to remove the publicity of copy and paste the text with acrobat...

Why do you think that i have place it on my own site... not for make a publicity but because he is good writen and say a lot about value of russian woman in a lot of different situation... i don't like agency but i can reconize when they write something good and usefull for everybody...

[Coulter]

You have my answer to your last post just above it. There is no such "thing" as a "Russian Woman". Every woman is different, Russian or not Russian. It is always the same "clichés". I know some Russian women who do not care about their flat, etc. Go figure after reading that crap.

And I repeat: you will find there no explanation why so many Russian men are drinking.

[Bruno]

Yep... you have reply before i send my post  ... sorry, sometime, i need time for post and these forum is very very actif...

First, this is general value... each woman from russia is different and these forum will be no big enough for the value of each of her...

And about religion, it is true, they become like in our modern country... we are catholic but visit the church for celebration of marriage, of dead friends, ... my ex-russian wife have almost no go to church in russian but she have begin in Belgium... she come only the last 15 minutes, only for have contact with other russian people...

Now, with Galina, it is a little different... she is believer but not extremist... but i have more problem with her father who is orthodox cleric... he wish i convert for the religious ceremony of marriage...

About russian man so much drinking, it is easy ... usually, the man are manual worker with not so high study that woman... since the problem with economy, they drink more... don't need to go in russia for see this... i have see it in US too... maybe it is time to quit your big villa and visit some place where the level of life is more low in US... you go see a lot of man drinking...

And i don't agree fully when you say that RW are like all other woman... because of cultural difference, they are different... of course, with the new generation, the difference are very little but when you choice a woman up 30 year old, you can find back the influence of the russian culture...

I know a perfect example of woman who show that russian woman are not fully like other woman... Elen from Moscow... try to find one like her who is American...

[Muzh]

I firmly believe that if one likes Russia, speaks Russian, is aware of the Russian culture, there will be no problem meeting the right one. On the other hand I think that we are in the small minority...

Coulter; you related to Ann?

Anyway, minorities are always small and the statement you just made makes it even smaller.

For example, I don't speak Russian and I'm learning the culture as we go.  My wife is a good teacher.  Still our relationship is a million times better than the previous one I had with a local.  Both women, my wife and ex are the same age.  That's where the similarities end.  BTW, the age difference is 13 years.

My wife is extremely family oriented, not the typical BS you hear about a "traditional wife from the former Soyuz" but for her home comes first.  My wife is also trying to be a career woman and she is doing this with all my support and encouragement.  She and I see eye-to-eye to what is important for the home.  I don't think this is exclusive for women of the former Soyuz.  One more thing in common s that we were both profesionally trained in the health field.

For Goomba: Excellent move!!!

[Elen]

But maybe Elen will tell you something more precise about this e-book... if she has the patience

:? I got "this file has security setting that prevents it from being opened"

So sorry... But It would be interesting for me to know how Russian woman is supposed to look like. (As I have a vague suspect I'm not "normal" russian woman:? )

About russian man so much drinking, it is easy ...

It's not such easy. The % of alcogolic among our rich well- edicated businessmen is almost the same among workers:?

As for religion I don't visit church at all. And if my "hypothetic" husband would constantly try to convince me I'll be burn in hell for that then he would get a hell here, at the Earth

 

[Coulter]

Bonsoir Bruno,

Of course all Russian women speak Russian, but I am speaking about personality. There are more differences between Russian (take any nationality) women (and men) than among some Russian women and any other nationality. I am tired of stereotypes. It leads nowhere. Just my opinion.

About religion, it is funny, I must have met the wrong people for except some old people nobody I know matches the  description. Oh yes even not believers can go to church for marriage, but that does not make them religious. Like going 15 minutes before the end of the ceremony... to meet friends. Well, there are many more non religious people in Russia than in the USA for instance and that is the most important, imo.

And I think that you have still a lot to learn if you think that you are understanding why so many men are drinking.

If you read French, i will recommand you to read "Drame de chasse" by Anton Tchekhov. It is worth much more than the e-book.

As for Elen, well, she is unique, and I will not even think one second to find a copy anywhere be it Russia or USA or elsewhere...

Edit to add the missing word "more"

[Coulter]

Hi Husband!

It is a very good idea to learn while walking. I respect that very much. Wish you success in your endeavours.

Now about semantics: a small minority means nothing close to 49% where the minority begins. Is it so difficult to understand the idea? Hopefully not. Maybe we can start a poll to see how many foreign men :

* knew the Russian language and culture before taking step to look for a bride there;

* did not know the Russian language and culture before engaging in one relationship, but are trying hard to understand the culture and are studying the culture (here I would ask: why a Russian woman?);

* do not care at all.

Maybe some intermediate entries are possible. I am sure that the people on this forum are caring much more than the the usual foreign man, just because they are here.

[Coulter]

About russian man so much drinking, it is easy ...

It's not such easy. The % of alcogolic among our rich well- edicated businessmen is almost the same among workers:?

As for religion I don't visit church at all. And if my "hypothetic" husband would constantly try to convince me I'll be burn in hell for that then he would get a hell here, at the Earth[/quote]
:D:D I like your sense of humour!
Not "normal"? Depends for whom!

[Bruno]

Coulter,

i understand what you mean... i have go several time to russia and other ex-ussr country before begin my search of wife....

Some of other on these forum have make business trip to russia before be married...

The real advice people need is ... take some of your holliday in russian and learn... but who go follow it... several people wish all easy, without loose time... they have general question and we give them general reply...

I have visit the half of the world during 9 year... and russian country was a place i have like and appreciate people... when have come the time to marry, i have think : why not from a place i like the people... Russia was one of these place but not the only one...

And about drinking, some study exist but they are so complex, with a lot of parameter... if you wish, read these report : http://alcalc.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/37/3/297 ...

[Coulter]

Yep, interesting. But I am still not satisfied, for it is rising more questions than answers.

[Bruno]

OK, other article from same site ...

http://alcalc.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/39/1/64

This study covered an important time in Russia: the societal transformation from the Soviet system to a market economy. The first, second and third surveys corresponded, respectively, to the mid 1980s, reflecting the Soviet period; the end of the 1980s at the height of perestroika; and the early 1990s when the impact of the societal transformation was most intense. Our data confirm previous reports that Russians drink relatively infrequently, but in a high dose per drinking occasion. In all three periods, we found educational differences in all major alcohol consumption indices in men. Differences by marital status were seen mainly between divorced/widowed men and others. There was a tendency towards increased male drinking in the1990s; this led to an increase in absolute differences but to a decrease in relative differences by education and marital status. Because of low levels of drinking among women, the results on females were unstable and inconsistent.

http://alcalc.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/34/6/824

Heavy drinking has a long tradition in Russia. This has led many commentators to argue that it is so ingrained as to be impossible to tackle. Certainly, the pattern of drinking observed in Russia is common to many societies in the far north, such as the Finns and the North American Inuit. However, as the historical evidence reveals, to a considerable extent this culture has been created by successive governments, whether Czarist or Communist. Furthermore, there are considerable variations in the drinking culture within Russia, whether considered in terms of geography, gender, or socio-economic strata, with significant numbers of abstainers among some groups. These findings, together with the large fluctuations in alcohol-related mortality in the 1980s and 1990s, suggest that heavy drinking is not an inevitable feature of being Russian. The history of alcohol consumption in Russia shows that, at various times, the state has contributed substantially to the problem, through the production and distribution of cheap alcohol. Theoretically, it should also be possible for the government to take appropriate action.

<sup>[line]

Not about alchohol but divorce rate :

http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/90/359/13194_divorce.html</sup>

[Muzh]

Now about semantics: a small minority means nothing close to 49% where the minority begins. Is it so difficult to understand the idea? Hopefully not. Maybe we can start a poll to see how many foreign men :

I was joking on the minority thing, I understood where you were coming from.  That's what happens when you present your ideas concisely and on target.

Now regarding the poll you suggested, I'd be interested in it too.  Maybe it will change my POV, but I doubt it.

My own sample: Was scheduled to be at the Moscow Olympics in 1980 (visa included) as a volleyball referee and didn't go.  Had a friend that had travelled many times to the Soyuz during the early 70s and kept telling me how stunning Russian women were (are).  How he got there, don't ask.  I was always curious about what my friend told me years ago and then the collapse happened.  When I started looking it was by accident.  Had two young children to take care and socializing on weekends was out of the question, many factors.  Bought a computer so I could do work at home hoping it would give me some free time with children.  A friend sent me an email with the tittle "Russian babes for sale" as a joke and had a link to an agency.  At the time, agencies just started touting the "submisiveness" of RW to AM as a way to make money.  Total turn off.  I was still curious because I couldn't believe that all these young beautiful women wanted to find a husband so desperately.  I found a "free" independently-owned agency in UA.  Actually, they were more of an internet cafe and they were located next to the hospital where my wife worked.  The rest is Russian history.

[Coulter]

"stunning"... hmmm, that is not my train of thoughts, I prefer "clever".

[Muzh]

"stunning"... hmmm, that is not my train of thoughts, I prefer "clever".

They both interwine, as a whole package.  That is what impressed me the most, beauty and brains.

[Todd]

Bruno,

You come up with some great links.  Has anyone been able to corroborate the 80% divorce rate figure in Pravada?  It just seems very high to me...perhaps, I'm too much of a midwesterner at heart.

[Todd]

Addendum....

I looked a found number of 46% for Russia from a 1996 study by the heritage foundation.  I also found something from divorce magazine (don't know how reliable these people are and they report a rate of 65% for Russia, which is #2...after Belarus at 68%.  Interestingly, Latvia and Ukraine are 4 and 5 respectively.

Here is the link:   http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml

[Bruno]

Todd,

Number need to be handle with care... they don't give detail on how they have these result...

By example, the divorce rate for Russia is 3.36/1000 at http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/peo_div_rat ... it mean that each year, 3.36 couple on thousand make a divorce... America have the first place and Russia the 3 place...

If you take a look at map, you can see that the divorce rate of Europe is very low... but before make conclusion, a other parameter...

Divorce by 100 marriage... at http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph-T/peo_div_per_100_mar&int=50 ... in these graph, Europe is on the top, my country, Belgium the first with 59.8 %... now, we can maybe begin make some conclusion...

More marriage lead to a divorce in Europa when we see the long term, we divorce not so fast that US and Russia... In some way, we can say that US and Russia have a high rate of divorce in starting marriage but that Europa have a high rate of divorce in long term marriage...

And we can see this in the reality... Russian marry very young, divorce young... and marry again later for a more strong relation ship who can stay for life...

In some way, the best for us, western man, is to marry a young russian woman who is already divorced ... you find a lot of these around 25 year old

Again, it is my conclusion of two graph... but unfortunaly, i have not some stas with more parameters... i go try to find some... but i promise nothing...

[Bruno]

OK todd...

I have maybe find why they say 80% ...

The source information are from "State commitee of the russian federation on stastitics" at http://www.gks.ru/eng/news.asp

For make the calculation, i use the "Handbook Russia" at http://www.gks.ru/eng/bd.asp for the year 2000,2001,2002 with the thema "population and labor market"

                                           1998    1999     2000    2001  

marriage by 1000 citizen    5.8        6.3       6.2        6.9         source gks

divorce by 1000 citizen       3.4        3.7       4.3        5.3         source gks

ratio divorce/marriage        58.6%   58.7%  69.3%  76.8%

For the calculation of the ration, i use the following formule :

( divorce by 1000 citizen / marriage by 1000 citizen ) *100 = ratio divorce/marriage in %    

For these who understand russian, a lot of stastitic and info on the russian part of the site...

[Elen]

http://www.atkmedia.ru/news/news.php?id=25392

some statistic from results of the last national census in Russia

30% of kids were born out of marriage

 2 mlns married couples less than 13 years ago

defferense between women who think they are married and males who do the same is 65 000:shock:  ( amount grown 3 times from 1989)

40% increase of never married and divorced

1,3 children per one woman of childbearing age

So that:?

[TigerPaws]

In some way, the best for us, western man, is to marry a young russian woman who is already divorced ... you find a lot of these around 25 year old

Bruno,

 This is what I counsel men on, look for a lady who has been married and divorced, additionally if the man dose not want children I suggest that he look for ladies who have a child under 5. Because in this age range if the girl dose not yet have a child she will most likely want a child within 3 to 4 years and it would be unfair to the lady for the man to refuse this joy to his wife.