The Struggle For Ukraine

[krimster2]

in the near future...
fleets of self-driving teslas will be packed with explosives
you lock the doors, then get your iphone and type in the destination address and click on the app's "GO" button
you can then track the progress of your car bomb on a map on your phone
fighting in the future is much easier than it is today
the Russo-Ukrainian war may be the last war fought with conventional weapons

[JohnDearGreen]

Wiki has through May 2023:

20,000 killed, 130,000 wounded[/t]24 February 2022 – 21 May 2023US estimate[72][/size] 10,000–13,000 killed[/t]24 February – 1 December 2022Ukrainian government[73][/size] Other articles have similar numbers. http://babel.ua/en/news/91790-the-secretary-of-the-national-security-council-refuted-wp-s-data-about-hundreds-of-thousands-of-losses-in-the-ranks-of-the-armed-forces "On December 2, 2022, the adviser of the Office of the President, Mykhailo Podolyak, noted that the losses of the Ukrainian army amount to 10,000-13,000 soldiers. This was the last official data announced by the authorities."

[Trenchcoat]

As i said the 8-10 times higher death figures for the orcs came from the Commander of the AFU Ground Forces ,Oleksandr Syrskyi,in his interview with ABC.


The 231,700 death toll for the orcs comes from the Ukrainian MOD.


I worked out the Ukrainian deaths from being 8-10 times less than the orcs,as stated by the AFU Ground Forces Commander.

The 231,700 death toll for the orcs could be right. However I doubt the Ukrainian forces have had an 8 - 10 average kill ratio throughout from the beginning of the war. They might have achieved this ratio against Wagner & some parts of the Russian front briefly where conscripts were just thrown in to put pressure on the Ukrainian forces.

The Russians have undoubtedly lost many men and while not highly trained the Russians have always focused on larger numbers rather than skill at least from WWI & WWII days. So overwhelming and relentless numbers to overpower the enemy. I personally would wish Ukraine to win this one but I wouldn't count Russia as done yet. The longer this war goes on the stronger Russia may get at least militarily in terms of getting large troop numbers to the front and possibly improving troop performance as they pick up experience on the ground. Ukraine has skilled and effective units but it's heavily dependent on the west and at the moment no big break through like last year.

The biggest thing that stands out from Ukraine is that they haven't given any solid numbers for its own troop losses. If they were as small as you calculated from the 8 - 10 per 1 Ukrainian troop lost that would be absolutely something for the Ukrainians to shout from the rooftops about. Any loss is never nice but in war so few losses set against an enemy with huge troop losses would be a huge morale booster. Even a rough 'we've lost around 30,000 troops' would be an indescriminate figure to put out. Yet nothing like that, instead they are keeping deathly quiet on the troop loss figures. The only reason to do that is if the troop losses are quite high or very high.

A US General last year estimated that Ukraine had lost around 100,000 troops. I came up with that figure just before he announced it basically extrapolated from a weekly killed report from the front line troops and news articles from Ukrainian troops where it seemed their losses were about the same as the Russians at least where they were. So hence why I believe Ukrainians are losing many but don't wish to spoke their own people with the figures as let's face it that isn't going to help conscription efforts.

The large battles fought over Bakhmut and the now ongoing Counter-offensive leads me to believe Ukrainian troop losses are probably approaching 200,000 already if not already passed it. If it was approximately 100,000 after about 8-9 months of war then to my mind it stands to reason that as another 8-9 months has passed of intense action likely another 100,000 have fallen too.

Looks like Zelensky now is coming out that the Counter-offensive is struggling to make progress at the moment, the big wait over winter/spring being a mistake:

Exclusive: Zelensky says he wanted counteroffensive to start ‘much earlier’ to pre-empt Russian defenses.

http://www.cnn.com/2023/07/05/europe/zelensky-counteroffensive-ukraine-erin-burnett-interview-2-intl-cmd

[Chelseaboy]

As JohnDearGreen has posted above ,the last official data released by the Ukrainian authorities regarding AFU losses was on 2/12/22.


The AFU losses at that time were announced as 10,000- 13,000.


Bearing that figure in mind,my guesstimate of 23,170-28,960 total AFU losses  seven months later probably isn't far out.


On another note there was a train convoy of Russian T-55 Tanks travelling to the front through Russia shown on video yesterday,with even the local Russians saying "we're now having to use relics...we're farked ".

[Trenchcoat]

As JohnDearGreen has posted above ,the last official data released by the Ukrainian authorities regarding AFU losses was on 2/12/22.


The AFU losses at that time were announced as 10,000- 13,000.


Bearing that figure in mind,my guesstimate of 23,170-28,960 total AFU losses  seven months later probably isn't far out.


On another note there was a train convoy of Russian T-55 Tanks travelling to the front through Russia shown on video yesterday,with even the local Russians saying "we're now having to use relics...we're farked ".

I don't believe those released statistics on Ukrainian troop losses at all, we'll just have to disagree on that one but am pretty sure we'll find out at the end of this war whenever that will be. To my mind it stands to reason that if you're being charged by a large number of enemy firing guns you're likely to have significant losses also. Same as if you're assaulting enemy troop positions. The ones who don't make it don't get to upload their efforts to you tube.

Russia has apparently exhausted most of its stockpiles and now they are pretty much down to what they can produce a day, week, month, etc. Still they seem well entrenched in the Ukrainian territory the hold. Even if an attack is launch from Belarus we might well be in a stalemate war situation.

My guess is that Russia knows that the west supplying Ukraine with superior but more expensive weaponry and ammunition is costing it a lot. The war is costing Russia a lot also but the less sophisticated weaponry cheaper on cost. So potentially Russia looking to the west to become financially exhausted and fed up off funding a war that has become bogged down. Possibly with some nations unwilling or unable to continue supplying Ukraine due to financial difficulties. Unless Ukraine can secure a breakthrough soon this war may hang in the balance for some time to come.

[krimster2]

government expenditures on munitions causes the West's industrial output and GDP to rise - hardly a bad thing
Ukraine gets the ammo, Russia gets the casualties, and western arms companys get the money, jobs, and taxes  -  what doncha like about this deal?

meanwhile, USA also takes over oil and gas market in Europe, completely replacing Russia, which has seen its oil and gas revenue plunge 50% compared to a year ago!!

we're makin money like crazy off of Russia's war while they are losing it!!!

sit back and smoke a cigar...
cuz Prigozhin just returned to St Petes, and his weapons and money were returned
he is now under protection of the Tambovs
WTF is going on?

if wagner isn't goin to belarus, then where dem boys is goin? hmmmmmm....

[Chelseaboy]

This is from Bloomberg.

[Trenchcoat]

government expenditures on munitions causes the West's industrial output and GDP to rise - hardly a bad thing
Ukraine gets the ammo, Russia gets the casualties, and western arms companys get the money, jobs, and taxes  -  what doncha like about this deal?

meanwhile, USA also takes over oil and gas market in Europe, completely replacing Russia, which has seen its oil and gas revenue plunge 50% compared to a year ago!!

we're makin money like crazy off of Russia's war while they are losing it!!!

sit back and smoke a cigar...
cuz Prigozhin just returned to St Petes, and his weapons and money were returned
he is now under protection of the Tambovs
WTF is going on?

if wagner isn't goin to belarus, then where dem boys is goin? hmmmmmm....

I doubt the extra tax money brought in matches western government expenditure, possibly the US gains more tax revenue from gains of sales of liquid gas etc in Europe. My guess is though after the cost of fighting COVID and western government spending on Ukraine many western countries must be hitting their debt ceiling. So how much longer can western government funding of this war last?

Remember US & UK pulled out of Afghanistan as apparently the money had run out. So how much longer can they really go on funding Ukraine?

I don't disagree with them funding Ukraine, I do approve of it but I'm just not sure how deep western governments pockets can go.

One thing I don't understand is how Prigozhin (assuming he flew alive) managed to fly to Moscow before flying to St. Pete's without being nabbed by Putler and his security forces/army, etc.

Apparently they now think Prigozhin flew back to Moscow on his plane before flying to Rostov (where he was staging the rebellion) assuming that he is still alive. I'm not sure why Putler would allow him to have such free reign of Russia after what he did.

If that is so and Prigozhin is still alive surely that could be dangerous for Putler in the future.

[Chelseaboy]

The orcs are now trapped in Bakhmut.


"In Bakhmut ,our defenders have been keeping the entrances,exits and movement of the enemy through the city under fire control for several days.This became possible due to the fact that in the process of advancing ,our  troops took control of the main commanding heights around Bakhmut."


Deputy Minister of Defence Hanna Maliar.


With the town ruined by the orcs,i guess the AFU can now use HIMARS and  the captured Russian  TOS-1A thermobaric rocket launcher on the trapped orcs to obliterate them.Hopefully there will be a lot of trapped orcs there 

[krimster2]

http://www.upday.com/uk/weekend-dawn-sturgess-death-what-do-we-know-about-the-novichok-poisoning-five-years-on

Dawn Sturgis was in the purges
and they sang her dirges

the war can be won with a few well placed bottles of novichok spray
place a small amount of cocaine first, to test security check - done
now the chanel novichok #5

putin is biden his time before he applies eau de morte to zelensky
tambovs + 'consultants' are gonna do it all, no fsb/gru/svr
it's why putin wasn't allowed to kill prigozhin - tambovs blocked it and said no, and told putin, "give him his money back while your'at it", and the kremlin did so immediately!!
ya see why moscva is afraid of tambovs, pretty much all the children of moscva oligarchs live outside russia for security from tambovs
russians owe me for keeping their kids safe
I may end up collecting something interesting for this service

[Chelseaboy]

Stanislav Rzhitsky was assassinated during his morning run in Krasnodar.


Two shots in the back and two in the chest.


This is the charmer who was the second ranking Captain and Commander of the submarine Krasnodar..He shelled Ukraine with Kalibr missiles and was responsible for the missile attack on Vinnytsia on 14th July 2022 which left 25 civilians dead including 3 children.

[krimster2]

a 'double-tap' from behind with one to the back of the head
is a 'signature' style  mob hit

so either they're 'touches finger to nose'
or they're professionals who understood WHY this is the best technique to use for a street assassination

either way, contrast that with russian polonium and novichok debacles
so whover is behind this isn't from the kremlin

the odessa 'mob' has DEEP connections into Russia
russian/ukrainian society is based on 'networks' of people
ergo the odessa mob has a huge network INSIDE Russia
because of Pootin, odessa mob and SBU are druzya and brat now
and every time a drone blows up in odesa, somebody in russia is gonna die
an there ain't nothin tambovs can do about that
there are millions of ukrainians living in russia
and some are crypto-ukraine supporters
and they get recruited
hmmmm hmmmmmm

the ukrainian 'hits' inside russia have been 'master-class'
the only country that does it better is Israel's Mossad
there is no one on earth better trained than a mossad assassin in a 'special unit' which takes years of increasingly difficult levels of training

[Trenchcoat]

Had to laugh at this:

'We're not Amazon’: Ben Wallace urges ‘gratitude’ from Ukraine as PM insists war-torn nation ‘incredibly grateful

http://www.lbc.co.uk/news/ben-wallace-ukraine-amazon-weapons-comments/

Just like dating a Ukrainian chick always wanting more stuff 

[Chelseaboy]

Yes,this sense of entitlement seems to be ingrained into a lot of Ukrainians...the land of prodating agency girls and dodgy dating agencies.


I brought this up previously on here when i was talking about the problems British families have been having with Ukrainian refugees living with them....no gratitude from the Ukrainians,just constant demands.


Sounds very familiar to what Ben Wallace has been saying ?


I've stopped my financial help directly to Ukrainians appealing for financial aid to buy stuff ,because they couldn't be bothered to even say a simple thank you to me...just one appeal after another.


They'd reach their targets for certain aid appeals and the same day it's "we have another urgent appeal to raise money for this ....let's go !".


It's like WTF.....what's happening to all the huge amounts of financial aid being sent to Ukraine by countries ?


Yes there's a war going on and they need help...but show some gratitude for the help you do get.


A couple of organizations outside of Ukraine,one based in the UK and one in Lithuania, who are running aid into Ukraine ,plus a Brit i know who's actually in Nikolaev delivering aid to the eastern and southern regions of Ukraine, i still support.They all supply regular photo and video updates of where the aid is going to and they all make the effort to say thanks for the help they're getting.


As for the whining from the Ukrainians about being accepted into NATO...firstly it obviously can't be done while there's a war going on in their country or we'll all be dragged into it via article 5,and secondly the blatant corruption going on there needs to be extinguished ...it's still rampant during the war with a female MP taking bribes ,a deputy stealing land in Odesa with fake documents,pro-Russian collaborators all over the place,others stealing fuel to sell whilst pretending it's for the AFU troops,a senior female tax official caught with suitcases full of stolen tax money,a gang of men in Kharkiv pretending they're armed police looking for pro-russian collaborators and ransacking people's homes to find evidence/ steal from them...this is all just this week !


How can we let a country infested with corrupt officials, crooks and thieves into NATO ?


Imagine these white Nigerians being trusted with NATO arms and info after the war has ended...they'll be selling it to the Russians.


The Brit i mentioned has just done an aid run into Kherson.The troops and police were very reluctant to let him in because they're having so many problems with local people phoning the AFU positions into the Russians,and they thought he might be another pro-Russian collaborator spying until they realized he was a Brit.


What a shithole of a country when so many crooks and traitors live there.


Clean your country up....then we can talk about you joining NATO.

[Boethius]

Ukraine is about as corrupt as Turkey and Albania, which are both NATO members.  I don't think Ukraine expected immediate NATO ascension.  I think they're looking for a path.  I think the bigger issue would be Russian spies within Ukrainian delegations.  However, Germany is also rife with Russian spies, and I suspect some Eastern European nations are as well, so that may be relatively neutral.


The corruption in Ukraine is a direct result of Soviet rule.  Soviet systems encouraged corruption, lying and thievery.  The Baltics avoided this because for the most part, they were very ruled from Moscow, with an iron fist.  ALL the other former Soviet republics have similar levels of corruption.


I don't think Ukrainians are lacking in gratitude.  But how often should one express this?  Zelensky's job is to advocate for Ukraine, and he has done that exceedingly well.  What's to be expected?  Their soldiers are dying on the fronts, the West has stated they will help, and Ukraine asks for help so that the war can end sooner.

[Chelseaboy]

Yes,for sure it's the Soviet influence that's led to Ukraine being so corrupt.


The Church of Russia,called Russian patriarchy in Ukraine ,can't do anything without approval from Moscow and  has a tremendously negative influence in Ukraine too.


From a female resident of Kyiv.


"The Russian Church is a way for them to make money.control people.and even turn them against Europe,the US ,or even Ukraine.Russian priests like expensive stuff when the church should teach the opposite.Some of them are former KGB agents.


Many "religious "  people couldn't even say they were Ukrainians.They called themselves Slavs.
Leave alone a huge amount of Russian propaganda about Novorosiya,Ukrainians and Russians being the same nation,anti-American propaganda and so on.Patriarch Krill said the same stupid things about mosquitoes and other things long before Russia started using the same statements to make people support the war.


Priests justify the war Russia started and also bless weapons and people to go to war."


There's a lot more about this religious organization ,but i've only posted the relevant part for a country who wants to join NATO.


This can't be allowed to be happening within a country that wants to join NATO,and the EU should be very careful about allowing Ukraine to become a member too as things stand.It's a breeding ground for terrorists.This church needs to be shut down as part of the required reforms in Ukraine and any Ukrainians/ethnic Russians who don't like it can move to Russia.

[Trenchcoat]

Yes,this sense of entitlement seems to be ingrained into a lot of Ukrainians...the land of prodating agency girls and dodgy dating agencies.


I brought this up previously on here when i was talking about the problems British families have been having with Ukrainian refugees living with them....no gratitude from the Ukrainians,just constant demands.


Sounds very familiar to what Ben Wallace has been saying ?


I've stopped my financial help directly to Ukrainians appealing for financial aid to buy stuff ,because they couldn't be bothered to even say a simple thank you to me...just one appeal after another.


They'd reach their targets for certain aid appeals and the same day it's "we have another urgent appeal to raise money for this ....let's go !".


It's like WTF.....what's happening to all the huge amounts of financial aid being sent to Ukraine by countries ?


Yes there's a war going on and they need help...but show some gratitude for the help you do get.


A couple of organizations outside of Ukraine,one based in the UK and one in Lithuania, who are running aid into Ukraine ,plus a Brit i know who's actually in Nikolaev delivering aid to the eastern and southern regions of Ukraine, i still support.They all supply regular photo and video updates of where the aid is going to and they all make the effort to say thanks for the help they're getting.


As for the whining from the Ukrainians about being accepted into NATO...firstly it obviously can't be done while there's a war going on in their country or we'll all be dragged into it via article 5,and secondly the blatant corruption going on there needs to be extinguished ...it's still rampant during the war with a female MP taking bribes ,a deputy stealing land in Odesa with fake documents,pro-Russian collaborators all over the place,others stealing fuel to sell whilst pretending it's for the AFU troops,a senior female tax official caught with suitcases full of stolen tax money,a gang of men in Kharkiv pretending they're armed police looking for pro-russian collaborators and ransacking people's homes to find evidence/ steal from them...this is all just this week !


How can we let a country infested with corrupt officials, crooks and thieves into NATO ?


Imagine these white Nigerians being trusted with NATO arms and info after the war has ended...they'll be selling it to the Russians.


The Brit i mentioned has just done an aid run into Kherson.The troops and police were very reluctant to let him in because they're having so many problems with local people phoning the AFU positions into the Russians,and they thought he might be another pro-Russian collaborator spying until they realized he was a Brit.


What a shithole of a country when so many crooks and traitors live there.


Clean your country up....then we can talk about you joining NATO.

Yep like I said before it threatens to be Ukraine's undoing. I think it must be a mentality out there, Kherson girl had it. It's like if they find out a person is open or willing to give stuff it's like, 'can we have more, can we have more, can we have more, etc, etc...'. I personally now think it's best not to get down into that whole rabbit hole by giving stuff in the first place, not at least until you know the girl/person. Otherwise I think they probably regard you as a mug or a bit easy for it and they never let up. Then as you've found buggering off is the only option.

I personally think that the poor Ukrainian guys on the front line likely never see anything of the stuff that's been donated. Their other halves, family, organizations out there, etc probably sell it off and buy the stuff they want for themselves with the money. I think the Ukrainian mentality is just that way geared it's nothing personal just how many of them are. Once you learnt about it you can adjust for it by not getting roped in, in the first place I think. Being nice and giving out there is basically taken advantage off, I don't think they have a concept of what it is about they just see it as weakness or something similar. At the start of both COVID and the war in Ukraine and a fair way into it I basically went to ground online. Sure I gave the odd token sum to a couple of aid organisations but that was about it. I didn't bother messaging chicks online, I took my profile down as I just new I would be in for a pointless appeal for stuff from loads of chicks all expressing how desperate they were in need. That's one whole deal best avoided I thought so decided to go off line to avoid all that carry on by them.

I don't think Ben Wallace was really saying that Zelensky was ungrateful but more the lot underneath him probably moreso on the military side. I can imagine the poor bugger doing the 11 hour journey just then to be shoved with a list of stuff they expected just for demanding it and showing him no gratitude. Much like if he did an 11 hour journey to meet a Ukrainian girl for her just to demand stuff of him on a date lol.

[Trenchcoat]

Saw this article just now:

http://bulgarianmilitary.com/2023/07/14/russia-armed-belarus-to-the-teeth-s-400s-tor-m2s-su-35s-mi-35s/

It's about how Belarus is upgrading it's military. Also in combination with its new nuclear deterrent from Russia. My guess is that Belarus didn't get involved last year as it feared being invaded by either NATO or countries such as Poland or possibly Ukraine in a counter attack. That and it's military might have been seen as a little under par anyway.

Now that they have nukes on their soil Belarus are now able to join the party. My guess is that they won't until they are pretty much through with ungrading most of their military and helped out with training from Wagner, etc. Possibly also expanded the size of its military. I think we can see from this though that the groundwork is being laid for Belarus to join the fight at some point likely in the near future. With the nukes in place and some of its military already upgraded, etc I think we can see that it's probably not far off. It may not be this Summer or even Winter but possibly Spring or Summer next year. No telling though, even this Summer/Autumn may be possible in a matter of weeks or so if they want to try and crack Ukraine. My best guess is though that they will wait until the majority of their army is upgraded and trained up etc to make best use of it.

[ML]

Yes, I was always quite irritated at lack of Thanks from both men and women in FSU.

However last week I did get this message from an acquaintance in Kyiv.

- - - - - -

Happy Independence Day to you XXX and all your family!
Thank you so much the USA for all its help to Ukraine!

Best wishes,

XXX and our big family.

[Bee Farmer]

Yes, I was always quite irritated at lack of Thanks from both men and women in FSU.

I concur.  I think it is a cultural issue.

In the Western world, we have the concept of a "debt of gratitude."  If you are kind or generous to someone, (especially if you are getting nothing in return) we expect that they are obligated to express their thanks or try to reciprocate in some way. 

In Ukraine (and maybe the FSU) I get the impression they believe that if you are kind, they owe you nothing. (which often leads to men being taken advantage of, and feeling lead on.)  If they express their thanks, that is when they become obligated to you.

Women have also explained a fear of being given a gift, and then after they accept the gift, the giver will make demands of them.  (Perhaps analogous to a man taking a lady to dinner, and then expecting sex afterwards.)  I have sent aid packages to a lady in Ukraine.  Dried pasta, coffee, bath sponges, water purification tablets...humanitarian stuff like that.  I had complained that she wouldn't even say thank you when she received the packages.  That is when she explained that she was worried about what I would demand from her.  (I've met her and spent time with her. I'm not a complete stranger.)  Another time, I asked her what she wanted for her birthday.  She finally said that she knew I was going to get her something...so if I was going to give something, to make it a sleeping bag, and she showed me a couple examples of what she wanted. I couldn't decide which one to get, so I bought both at WalMart and sent them to her.  She was very angry when she opened the box. Why did I send 2? She finally realized that she could share one with another friend who needed one.  But I have noticed that her initial reaction to unexpected gifts is usually defensive and suspicious.  (I'm not sure if this is cultural or individual.)
She will now say something like, "I received the package. Thanks."  That is about the extent of her expression of gratitude, but it's a start.   

The lady also once told me that in Ukraine, if a man gives a girl money, he can ask for everything.  (She explained that a man could give a girl gifts of flowers or candy, but never money.) I don't know if she meant that if a man offered a lady money for her expenses, if she accepted then she must do whatever he demanded...or if a lady had to request the money from a man before she was obligated to do whatever he asked.

I haven't quite figured out what triggers the debt of gratitude in Ukrainian culture.  In Western culture, simply receiving/accepting a gift of kindness that we don't deserve triggers the debt of gratitude.  If I do you a favor, then you owe me a favor.  (It can be as simple as holding the door for a lady and smiling at her.  If she doesn't smile back and say thank you, we think she is rude.)  I haven't figured out what triggers the debt of gratitude in Ukraine, or if they even understand that concept.

[krimster2]

ukrainians are like turtles livin in their shell
not much gets through

the social graces do not flourish there
so don't EVER expect anythin like a display of 'gratitude' over your meager 'gifts'
cuz they know what they are REALLY, even if you don't...
it's called "quid pro quo"
you pay her a quid, and she gives ya some of her quo

you give little, you get little
since you don't seem to get it, please allow me to explain

they aren't GIFTS
they're payments for 'services rendered'
she's an on-line version of a japanese B-girl hustling customers pretending she 'likes' them, all part of the job
but you think you're in a 'relationship'

i don't know whether to laugh or cry (it's both funny and sad)
you're like a guy who walks into a strip bar, falls in love with the first stripper he sees and wants to date and marry her
WTF?
the pooty tang situation must be really, really bad at Hawg Hollar Estates to lead to such a development

all of life, is but an illusion anyway
don't feel bad about misperceiving your 'romance'


horrosho...
next question

[Trenchcoat]

ukrainians are like turtles livin in their shell
not much gets through

the social graces do not flourish there
so don't EVER expect anythin like a display of 'gratitude' over your meager 'gifts'
cuz they know what they are REALLY, even if you don't...
it's called "quid pro quo"
you pay her a quid, and she gives ya some of her quo

you give little, you get little
since you don't seem to get it, please allow me to explain

they aren't GIFTS
they're payments for 'services rendered'
she's an on-line version of a japanese B-girl hustling customers pretending she 'likes' them, all part of the job
but you think you're in a 'relationship'

i don't know whether to laugh or cry (it's both funny and sad)
you're like a guy who walks into a strip bar, falls in love with the first stripper he sees and wants to date and marry her
WTF?
the pooty tang situation must be really, really bad at Hawg Hollar Estates to lead to such a development

all of life, is but an illusion anyway
don't feel bad about misperceiving your 'romance'


horrosho...
next question

I get it, so if a guy abroad whether he has met the girl or not is sending her stuff then as far as she is concerned it's sent to render services. Those services may just be to keep chatting to a lonely guy possibly suggestive of love or send him some saucy photos, videos of her and stuff. So not necessarily any real relationship there just a punter if you like in a way.

When the guy is with the girl of course gifts can be given or asked for in return for sex. So not as direct as a prostitute asking money for sex but a 'you get what you want I get what I want' idea at some point kind of thing. So as has been said often the guy shouldn't be expectant of sex on giving a gift since the girl did not ask for one so she may not give it or perhaps refuse the gift. I'm guessing the customary gift you give a girl on meeting and she gives you back one is to cancel your gift out as a customary friendship gesture. Otherwise if she gave nothing back she would feel potential imposition to return the favour. Hence why some FSW don't like it when a guy gives a gift as above as they feel under an imposition to return the favour even if the guy sent it to be nice or as a kind gesture. The girl may of course not give sex even if it's expectant by the guy but she often doesn't feel right not doing so.

So aside from a customary exchange of gifts in a meet with a FSW that you may have just been messaging online for a WOVO. Then if you wish to pursue a long term relationship then the best thing to do is to just go out on dates. The guy not giving any gifts just paying for the cost of the dates with the girl (entertainment, eating out, etc) and her agreeing to further dates, and sex just coming by way of her attraction for you or perhaps just as the relationship moves along towards engagement proposal, marriage, etc.

The dinner date up front then perhaps more so on a WMVM is more likely to yield sex as you're not necessarily dating but  a kind of loose informal unspoken understanding that you are paying for dinner (hopefully not in McDonald's) and she may return the favour (gift of a nice dinner) by way of sex afterwards.

So I'm guessing the surest way of a progressing to a long term relationship is by not gift giving so you know the basis isn't quid pro quo. If she has sex with you without any gift giving just dates then she likes you a lot. However, my guess is that even the quid pro quo might lead to a long term relationship, marriage etc if she becomes reliant on your gifts, money you send and she sees you as a good prospect to get with maybe.

Am I right in all of this?

[Chelseaboy]

Back on track with the title of this  thread .


Regarding the AFU counter-offensive,and the total liberated area in the south is now 179.5 square km.


I'm not sure where these liberated areas of the south are coming from because i thought the AFU had liberated all the southern areas on the west bank of the Dnipro river when they liberated the city of Kherson. ?


Are these newly liberated areas on the east bank of the Dnipro river..toward Melitopol and Berdyansk ,or around the Zaporizhzhia area.?


Tougher going in the east,with the total area now liberated standing at 31 square km.


These figures come from Deputy Minister of Defence of Ukraine Hanna Maliar.

[krimster2]

kerch bridge hit yet again!!!
the outgoing lane is GONE
there's a miles long backup of cars trying to flee
at the same time drones attacked sevastopol

crunching numbers in my spreadsheet
if ukraine doesn't make better progress on their offensive in the next 90 days
it'll run out of batterys before it can cut-off crimea

if this happens it means that by the end of the year, Putin and his army of Putin 'doubles' (who all sit at a big table and plot together) will change their focus to the upcoming elections
putin is much better at political engineering than he is at military planning (2016 election interference was GENUIS)
it's the pinacle of asymetrical warfare
use your enemy's own internal weaknesses to destroy them

I predict prominant deaths next year of sr political figures that alter the elections
only question is what poison will they use

yes, Trench you have understood....
good lad!

[Trenchcoat]

yes, Trench you have understood....
good lad!

Great to have finally cracked it! After all these years.