If you asked me: "what's not to like in Ukraine?"

[Rubicon]

Interesting that you assume I'm a coward. You do understand the meaning of the word, right? Or perhaps not.

Anyway, please post plenty of photos of your encounters with these guys when you get over there again. I'm sure we are all curious to see the results of your fabulous MMA skills and your one strike knock outs.

And as Boethius so aptly points out, bystander apathy is infamous in U.S. towns and cities so please stop trying to portray the U.S. as being any different in this regard - your nationalistic rah-rah song is just silly.

Sorry Ade, it was a poor choice of words.  I should have just stated that if you prefer to be a bystander.

I  would not be posting any photos of any encounter for what should be obvious reasons.  No desire to have either the police or friend of attacker to know me.

[Rubicon]

They're not that bad, as long as you haven't touched a child or a woman.

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.  Here we have a video tape of a man harming a woman; and yet you would imply that the Ukrainian mafia would do something to him??  Extremely doubtful.  He and his father are probably on their payroll.

[Rubicon]

Rubicon,
 
You are setting a new standard for know-it-all bloviating.  Translation:  you talk out of your ass.  Is laryngitis of the ass painful?

Thanks Gator.  As a matter of fact I did eat something bad yesterday, and had gas all night as a result...is that what you meant??

[Rubicon]

Altercation started at 0239 and the cop arrived at 0254 when the video ended- not bad.

I've seen such nasty scenes happen quite a few places in the western world.

I see this happened 4th July.. so just a few days ago but it seems all conclusions have already been made?

The girl did get a couple good licks in.  Just watch the way she handles the bottle long before striking.  Wasn't her first fight. 

Just a bunch of drunk kids.

If I were there I would not have intervened.  There were already enough people involved so why add to the mess.

Rubicon,

I can just imagine watching you get involved there...  would have been an entertaining distraction.  Haiiiii yaaaa!!

No Haiiii yaaaa's.  Just a quick quiet Gracie choke out.

[mies]

Very naive view.  It wasn't just cursing.  He was threatening their lives.  He is a powerful politician in the region, and no policeman is going to take him on.

Boethius is right. Father is a member of Ukrainian Parliament. He has a "privilege of parliament" - he can't be arrested or put on trial, under normal circumstances, and can't be prosecuted under criminal law. He is important not only in his region, but at the country level too.
His son is a member of city council, equivalent to his dad's position but on a municipal/regional level. If anyone would have attempted to attack him physically - the legal consequences would have been much more serious than when he attacks a "common folk." That's how skewed our system is. He beats up the girl unconscious and he is charged with minor "hooliganism," if anyone tried to beat him - the charges on the attacker would have been criminal, with 5-8+ years of jail time. But still, the reaction of people is appalling. They aren't shocked, they don't seam uneasy or uncomfortable, they observe it as a casual normal thing. No one intruded or tried to stop him, and no one called the police.

[Ade]

Boethius is right. Father is a member of Ukrainian Parliament. He has a "privilege of parliament" - he can't be arrested or put on trial, under normal circumstances, and can't be prosecuted under criminal law. He is important not only in his region, but at the country level too.
His son is a member of city council, equivalent to his dad's position but on a municipal/regional level. If anyone would have attempted to attack him physically - the consequences legal would have been much more serious than when he attacks a "common folk." That's how skewed our system is. He beats up the girl unconscious and he is charged with minor "hooliganism," if anyone tried to beat him - the charges on the attacker would have been criminal, with 5-8+ years of jail time. But still, the reaction of people is appalling. They aren't shocked, they don't seam uneasy or uncomfortable, they observe it as a casual normal thing. No one intruded or tried to stop him, and no one called the police.

Actually Mies, the report my wife found said there were two calls to the police about the incident and there was a guy hanging off the back of the dude although he wasn't trying too hard to stop him if you ask me. So to say no one tried to stop him and no one called the police is inaccurate.

[Boethius]

You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.  Here we have a video tape of a man harming a woman; and yet you would imply that the Ukrainian mafia would do something to him??  Extremely doubtful.  He and his father are probably on their payroll.

What makes you think mafia types end up in jail?  Most men in Ukrainian prisons are bit players, it is not uncommon to be set up by authorities, and most prisoners are not connected to mafiosi.
 
Before you suggest I am talking out of both sides of my mouth, learn a little bit about Ukrainian society.

[Ade]

No Haiiii yaaaa's.  Just a quick quiet Gracie choke out.

While his mates beat you over the head with a full bottle of vodka.

Look, I understand where you are coming from, I've even intervened myself several times over the years (the Welsh mining valleys weren't exactly soft and fluffy places you know), but in this situation, in a country like Ukraine, where you don't understand the local social dynamics it would be quite easy to escalate the situation into something far worse that it otherwise would have been no matter how good you are with your hands.

[BC]

No Haiiii yaaaa's.  Just a quick quiet Gracie choke out.

Yeah, and while you're trying to get your arm around his neck he grabs your balls with one hand and your hair (if you have it) with the other.. then while you're distracted turns his head a bit and bites a chunk of your arm or chest out while his pal is either punching or kicking your kidneys if you happen to be on the ground by then.. yepper..  Haiiii yaaaa!!

So for your trouble you end up laying somewhere behind the bar, between a couple of dumpsters, sans wallet, phone and passport, haven't a clue as to who you have been messing with, can't speak the language and absolutely no one that knows you was there that will vouch for you and a bar owner swearing you started it all.  Your date is long gone and was muttering 'stupid WM' as she went out the door, replaced by two men with badges and guns shining a flashlight in your face.  If you're lucky you'll get to call and speak with someone at the consulate - in a day or two.

The rest of your trip is used up with getting your butt out of jail, scrounging up some cash, getting medical attention, replacing your passport and canceling your dates.. -after all can't make a good impression with bashed face, a chunk missing from your arm, torn scalp, true blue balls and pissing blood.

-and all that if you are lucky.

Wise man once told me, "If you stick your finger into dark places, don't expect it to come out smelling like roses."

[mies]

The problem of our country is its people, who are very submissive to authorities and are used to living under tsar, especially in eastern regions.
But speaking of other people reaction - well, during all the fight the friend of the guy was trying to drag him from the girl, and her friends were also trying to stop the fight, why do you say nobody did anything?

Nat, I think you are wrong. Second man isn't trying to drag the attacker from the girl. He is protecting the attacker's back, pushing away second girl when she gets close to the attacker, and tries to pacify the attacker a bit when he gets too violent. But he basically makes sure the attacker finishes what he started and that no one intervenes.

About 2 other girls who were friends of the victim - during the first attack they left to let the attacker and victim to "sort things out." Only when the attacker dragged her from her seat, and dragged her so hard that a leather couch turned over (!!!) - only then they meekly tried to show some signs of protest and support their friend. But it wasn't real intrusion at all. Look at them - how they try to look f-ing elegant and sophisticated and nice and feminine while their friend is being beaten up. This is so disgusting and just horrible. Look in the end of the video how the friend of the victim smiles submissively to the attacker and other guys, while the victim lies unconscious on the floor and guys discuss what to do with the body. I am 100% sure there was a threat to her life, because they were discussing what to do with her now, as she is beaten up, and friends of the attacker were not pleased with the situation, they wanted to get out of it. They could have easily dumped the girl or her body in the nearest forest or park.

[BC]

But still, the reaction of people is appalling. They aren't shocked, they don't seam uneasy or uncomfortable, they observe it as a casual normal thing. No one intruded or tried to stop him, and no one called the police.

Mies,

Look at the last few seconds.. looks like a cop to me.  Watch the girlfriend.. looks like she was calling someone on her phone.  Sure were a few trying to do something.

[mies]

Sure, no excuse.. he grabbed her arm and got smacked with a bottle in return. 

no, watch the beginning of the video carefully: he assaults the girl verbally and pours the drink on girl's skirt, she pours the drink from bottle on his head. He starts threatening her verbally, and that's when she reaches for an empty bottle, then he punches her in her left eye/nose area, while she hits his neck with the bottle.

[mies]

Mies,

Look at the last few seconds.. looks like a cop to me.  Watch the girlfriend.. looks like she was calling someone on her phone.  Sure were a few trying to do something.

my personal reaction: I don't think they did enough. All of those who watched could have started shouting "stop it." or something like that. If all people did it together, or at least several people did it together - it would have distracted attacker's attention from the victim. However, it's true I do not know how I would have acted in similar situation, and i hope to never be in one.

as I said previously- the matter is very controversial, about acceptance of violence towards women by general public, about politicians and corruption, about male-female roles in modern ukrainian society. This "kid" as someone called him in this thread, is 37 years old. He was appointed first to city council by his father when he was 19yo, and since then he enjoys all the benefits of being a "man of power". He was married few months ago, but he tried to pick up this girl/victim in a bar. The victim is 20yo. He attacked her because she refused to join him for a "ride." After the story happened his father, an MP, also have threatened journalists and warned them of writing anything about his son.
The guy/attacker is a member of city council. Few days before this story about attack surfaced/happened his father, a member of country parliament, sealed a deal on appointing his son the head of regional division of state commission on protecting consumers' rights. Some anonymous posters online say that this isn't the first time the attacker hits random women when they refuse to join him for "fun time together." It is possible that the video surfaced because someone didn't want the son to be appointed to the new and important state post, which would give him even more power and even more access to circulation of state finances.
I do not exclude the possibility that someone, knowing the guy's habits of hitting women - set him up by putting the girl under cameras, and instructing her to refuse him. Doesn't sound impossible to me. But even if it was a set up, i am happy that the tape became public, and I hope that the person will be prosecuted. Although, most likely he won't be.

[mies]

Actually Mies, the report my wife found said there were two calls to the police about the incident and there was a guy hanging off the back of the dude although he wasn't trying too hard to stop him if you ask me. So to say no one tried to stop him and no one called the police is inaccurate.

the guy on attacker's back is attacker's friend. He isn't trying to stop him, he is mildly pacifying the attacker when he gets too violent, he is also protecting attacker's back from whoever would try to intervene.

only 2 calls to police while so many people were calmly observing it?

The man who enters the doors doesn't look like a regular policeman. Police in Ukraine wears very different uniform. He looks either as a "special security unit"/Special Purpose Police Unit, or as some specialized "bodyguard" service. This isn't the type of people who come to the place of incidents when police receives the call. To me he looks like the guy, probably a "special police/security unit" guy who works either for the attacker, or for his dad, and who was called to clean up the mess.

Regular Ukrainian policeman uniform:


special security unit uniform could be like here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkut_%28Ukraine%29

or all black as in the video. 

To give you an example, imagine that 911 in USA receives a call about fight in a bar, and instead of regular police car, a CIA or FBI guy arrives to the location.

[Gator]

One point to be taken from this is a better understanding that the interest of some RW in foreign men is not necessarily about economics.   Not every RM is like this brute, and some AM can be just as bad.   However, far more RM are this way than AM, and the culture does not come to the rescue of the RW who becomes a target.
 
I met many divorced RW.  I say only about half would consider marrying RM because of personal painful experiences (womanizing, violence, alcohol abuse, gambling, etc.). 

[Rubicon]

What makes you think mafia types end up in jail?  Most men in Ukrainian prisons are bit players, it is not uncommon to be set up by authorities, and most prisoners are not connected to mafiosi.
 
Before you suggest I am talking out of both sides of my mouth, learn a little bit about Ukrainian society.

You misunderstood me.  Muzh stated that Donetsk was mafia capital of Ukraine and I might get shot with a bullet by one of them.  I stated that that (getting shot by mafia) and ending up in a Ukrainian jail were my worst fears.  You stated they are not that bad (I thought you were referring to mafia) if you don't bother children and women.  And this is where I disagreed with you because my sources indicate the mafia works hand in hand with police and prosecutors and it is the mafia who is tricking young girls into prostitution and sending them to other horrible countries in that type of slavery.  I never said or implied that the mafia would go to jail, I was implying that the mafia might try to shoot me and then have me arrested by a corrupt cop.

[Rubicon]

While his mates beat you over the head with a full bottle of vodka.

Look, I understand where you are coming from, I've even intervened myself several times over the years (the Welsh mining valleys weren't exactly soft and fluffy places you know), but in this situation, in a country like Ukraine, where you don't understand the local social dynamics it would be quite easy to escalate the situation into something far worse that it otherwise would have been no matter how good you are with your hands.

That's why we should put aside any philosophical differences and work together.  I might need your help one day while I come to the assistance of a young lady, you could take care of the thug's friend.      Than run like hell to get a Taxi to a much different city.  But I agree with you that if you don't live there it could be a whole other mess as if they could get their hands on you they would probably throw you in the slammer and throw away the key.

[mies]

and the culture does not come to the rescue of the RW who becomes a target.

this is my opinion too. It also can explain why and how RWs' personality change once they start living permanently in the West.

[BC]

One point to be taken from this is a better understanding that the interest of some RW in foreign men is not necessarily about economics.   Not every RM is like this brute, and some AM can be just as bad.   However, far more RM are this way than AM, and the culture does not come to the rescue of the RW who becomes a target.
 
I met many divorced RW.  I say only about half would consider marrying RM because of personal painful experiences (womanizing, violence, alcohol abuse, gambling, etc.).

.. and when that changes (and it will one day in the future) this whole FSUW 'thing' will die.

[Rubicon]

Yeah, and while you're trying to get your arm around his neck he grabs your balls with one hand and your hair (if you have it) with the other.. then while you're distracted turns his head a bit and bites a chunk of your arm or chest out while his pal is either punching or kicking your kidneys if you happen to be on the ground by then.. yepper..  Haiiii yaaaa!!

So for your trouble you end up laying somewhere behind the bar, between a couple of dumpsters, sans wallet, phone and passport, haven't a clue as to who you have been messing with, can't speak the language and absolutely no one that knows you was there that will vouch for you and a bar owner swearing you started it all.  Your date is long gone and was muttering 'stupid WM' as she went out the door, replaced by two men with badges and guns shining a flashlight in your face.  If you're lucky you'll get to call and speak with someone at the consulate - in a day or two.

The rest of your trip is used up with getting your butt out of jail, scrounging up some cash, getting medical attention, replacing your passport and canceling your dates.. -after all can't make a good impression with bashed face, a chunk missing from your arm, torn scalp, true blue balls and pissing blood.

-and all that if you are lucky.

Wise man once told me, "If you stick your finger into dark places, don't expect it to come out smelling like roses."

Sounds great but I can tell by your description that you've never watched a trained attacker take out a fool like we have in the video.  He would never get his hands near my balls.  More likely the other way around.  There are so many pressure points on his head, neck and various other places which can be quickly struck to stun him and from there it's over very quickly with a quick succession of blows and a choke out.  The only thing that would really worry me is being a foreigner in a foreign country.  This is why the people in Ukraine need to do a much better job of standing up for THEIR rights.  If they do not than they can expect the "ruling class" over there to continue to treat them with contempt.

They need another Orange Revolution and a Facebook revolution against corrupt PM's, corrupt government officials, corrupt and unhelpful police and corrupt judiciary. 

[Rubicon]

I feel for some of these young Ukrainian women. I really do...Their choices in life is between these thugs and those socially inept, fat and old WMs. It must really sux to be them, no?
 
Rubicon, son of Rambo, dude, it's Tae Kwon Do, man.

No dude, I'm talking about Thai Kwon Do, a mixture of Muay Thai and Tae Kwon Do!!   

[BC]

They need another Orange Revolution and a Facebook revolution against corrupt PM's, corrupt government officials, corrupt and unhelpful police and corrupt judiciary.

Rubicon,

Aside from your bravado, you seem to lack the understanding and respect for others outside your borders that are on a much different timeline regarding social development.

You would be much better off accepting other cultures for what they are and not what you think they should be.

Are you a fighter in theory or practice?  With the skills you describe, this is the last place on earth I would expect you to be.  In fact you could easily land a grand job protecting this guy from himself and others along with a good chance at some fine looking women at the places he plays..  My goodness... you haven't sent your application yet??

[Rubicon]

BC,

Thanks, but I don't think you're correct.  I think Mies and others would love to see some improvements in Ukraine, and not next year; Yesterday.

If this YouTube video gets enough play around various Universities in Ukraine it could have a desired effect to generate an even larger uprising against this particular corrupt MP and his son.

[BC]

BC,

Thanks, but I don't think you're correct.  I think Mies and others would love to see some improvements in Ukraine, and not next year; Yesterday.

[/quote

Patience and persistence are virtues, but don't expect miracles.

If this YouTube video gets enough play around various Universities in Ukraine it could have a desired effect to generate an even larger uprising against this particular corrupt MP and his son.

Don't get your hopes up.  Surely will tarnish his image a bit but don't expect anything more.  In the grand scheme of things this is nothing but a minor nuisance. Again, your western standards do not apply.

[JohnDearGreen]

If this YouTube video gets enough play around various Universities in Ukraine it could have a desired effect to generate an even larger uprising against this particular corrupt MP and his son.

Actually, when the internet and media get involved it reduces the chances of the victim getting any justice.  The old guard does not want their system to lose any control to such influences, and will in effect frequently do more of the opposite of what the media wants just to thwart that tactic.