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Author Topic: Ukraine rejects EU  (Read 54457 times)

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Offline jone

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #75 on: December 03, 2013, 04:48:00 PM »
Tom,

First of all there were a thousand respondents.  Second, this is a standard polling firm in Ukraine that monitors change in the voting populace and quantifies their results.  Third, they use the same standard that many polling operations use in the United States:

Information about the study:

The survey was conducted within the regular study of electoral preferences of the population based on the Omnibus GfK Ukraine during 2-15 October 2013. The total sample consists of 1000 respondents aged over 16. The sample is representative of the population of Ukraine by gender, age, region and size of locality. The survey was conducted by personal interview. The maximum error of - 3.1%.

Here is the website where the original poll came from:

http://www.gfk.ua/public_relations/press/press_articles/011218/index.ua.html

You might want to revise your previous post. 
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #76 on: December 03, 2013, 04:53:56 PM »
A poll with fewer than a thousand respondents is junk and one which doesn't state the number of respondents is less than junk, no matter how large a font size that you choose.

Quote
http://russialist.org/nearly-half-of-ukrainians-favor-association-with-eu-gfk-ukraine/

GfK Ukraine said on Tuesday in publicizing the findings of a public opinion poll of 1,000 respondents it conducted on October 2-15, 2013.


Victoria Nuland, Assistant Secretary of State will join Ambassadors Dan Brooks Baer and Geoff Pyatt at the annual meeting of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.  Secretary Kerry is snubbing Putin by visiting Moldova.

Poland and Russia on a collision course: Battleground Ukraine
]http://www.flickr.com/photos/110354405@N05/11193740044/

Christopher J. Miller Kyiv Post reports support for Yanokvich weakening in the Donbass region:

http://tvi.ua/new/2013/12/02/shakhtari_vymahayut_vidstavky_yanukovycha
(in ukrainian)

Jacek Saryusz-Wolski, Member of the European Parliament joins the Guardian and calls for a boycott cites Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe.

Anders Aslund of The Peterson Institute for International Economics
http://www.piie.com/blogs/realtime/?p=4124

take aways
Quote

Economically, nothing good is likely to happen for a few months. Realistically, no effective government is to be expected for the next 3 to 4 months, and that hiatus might last for much longer. The following economic consequences appear likely:

1. A general strike of 2 to 3 weeks will certainly hurt the economy, which was already set to contract by one percent this year.

2. State revenues are bound to underperform, since tax collection in Ukraine has been very tough, and it is now set to ease. Meanwhile expenditures will rise as cost control eases. The total expected budget deficit for 2013 is already 8 percent of GDP according to JP Morgan.

3. Naturally, until a new government has emerged, Ukrainian bond yields will rise and Ukraine will be excluded from international financial markets, which will lead to further reserve losses. The few stocks that are still traded are likely to sink.

4. Russia has no reason to give any concession under these circumstances, since no Ukrainian government will be able to credibly promise anything. The expected Russian financing is unlikely to materialize.

5. It would be surprising if this would not lead to a run on the banks and on the currency. The result would be both devaluation and substantial bank failures. Defaults on bonds of state-owned companies such as Naftogaz would be natural consequences.

In the end, when Ukraine has got a government with some legitimacy, the European Union and the International Monetary Fund will have to get into fervent crisis management.


Offline Boethius

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #77 on: December 04, 2013, 01:59:46 AM »
I really don't see any benefit to existing EU members in the EU embracing Ukraine and bringing them into our fold..it'll just be another country like Greece poncing bail-outs off the rest of us...more trouble than they're worth.
 
Let the Russians have them,it's a pity they didn't want Bulgaria and Rumania too.

Ukraine is not Greece, or Bulgaria, or Romania.  In addition to the world's most fertile land, it also has abundant resources, and many industries, such as aeronautics, shipbuilding (granted, in decline), and weapons.  Its problem, in terms of GDP is not a lack of an educated, motivated work force, or resources to make it a full fledged functioning European country, but rather, its elite classes.  Comprised almost entirely of the former nomenklatura and their offspring, this elite has zero interest in the economic well being, or the improvement of the life of the masses.  Rather, their outlook on life has always been grab as much as you can, as soon as you can, by any means possible.  They basically transformed their political power, which continued unabated on the collapse of the USSR, into economic power.   It is this corruption which keeps Ukraine poor, as it permeates the society from the president's office all the way down to the village mayor who runs the local brick factory, and who, rather than pay his workers, builds himself a mansion and imports a Lexus or Mercedes with the worker's wages.

The worst thievery occurred among the Orangistas.  I recall an ad on Kontakt, a disapora Ukrainian programme, advertising the tour of Yushchenko's priceless personal collection of Ukrainian artifacts.  I saw most of those artifacts, and recognized the majority of them from Kyiv museum collections.  On a visit to Pecherska Lavra, Yushchenko also took a priceless ring, and added that to his personal collection.  Imagine stealing from a church and, not just any church, but the third holiest site in the Slavic Orthodox world!  I tell this story as it illustrates the attitude of this elite, in general.   However, the Orangistas believe that Ukraine in the EU will allow them to legalize their stolen fortunes through European sources.  Of course, they take the Brits bending over for Russian oligarchs, and all the capital that flowed into London real estate, as their example.  However, I don't think that will happen again.  It's a different world, in some ways.  Or, maybe not.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 02:16:47 AM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Shadow

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #78 on: December 04, 2013, 02:13:12 AM »
In the end it is the old curve between expectation and reality that prompted the unrest.
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #79 on: December 04, 2013, 07:33:02 AM »
The siege continues

http://twitter.com/ukrpravda_news

Christopher Miller ‏‪@ChristopherJM‬
47m
‪#EuroMaidan‬ latest: Opposition says no round table till govt sacked,  ‪@Yatsenyuk_AP‬ warns protesters of provocations ‪http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-live-updates-332341.html …‬


Christopher Miller ‏‪@ChristopherJM‬
1h
'Given events at Independence Square…we decided to stop providing access to the Internet for Berkut.' ‪http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/internet-service-provider-pulls-plug-on-riot-police-web-access-333015.html …‬ ‪#euromaidan‬


Christopher Miller ‏@ChristopherJM 1h
Head of #Kyiv City State Admin: No use of force planned to liberate city hall http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/popov-no-use-of-force-planned-to-liberate-kyiv-city-administration-building-333009.html … #euromaidan #ukraine
Expand  Reply  Retweeted  Favorited   More

 Christopher Miller ‏@ChristopherJM 2h
@KyivPost's @kgorchinskaya visits #Kyiv city hall, now Revolution HQ. Protesters bring new order to city hall http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/protesters-bring-order-to-kyiv-city-hall-333010.html

James Marson ‏@marson_jr 4h
Protesters wipe their feet on soviet flag at entrance to #euromaidan #Ukraine pic.twitter.com/w427qe2cs3


Jacek Saryusz-Wolski ‏@JSaryuszWolski 7h
Brussels visit of #Ukraine's gov.delegation Arbuzov VPM is a smokescreen to mislead #Euromaidan and keep it freezing.Should be refused.
 Retweeted by Christopher Miller

Site Maidan.Org.Ua ‏@sitemaidan 7h
Government reclaimed Sadova and Shovkovychna streets in the government block in Kyiv #euromaidan

FPI ‏@ForeignPolicyI 20h
Read @FreedomHouseDC's David Kramer in the @WashingtonPost, today: #Ukraine needs Europe’s help against Yanukovych - http://wapo.st/1g0PBxN
 Retweeted by Freedom House

Mykhajlo Datsenko ‏@MVDatsenko 1h
@Kateryna_Kruk PM #Azarov threatens western Oblasts of #Ukraine with denial of state funds for social payments
 Retweeted by Jacek Saryusz-Wolski



Mykhajlo Datsenko ‏@MVDatsenko 1h
@Kateryna_Kruk #Yatsenyuk warns of provocations by government of #Ukraine involving corpses of policemen to start crack-down
 Retweeted by Jacek Saryusz-Wolski


EPP Group ‏@EPPGroup 38m
All together with #Ukraine RT @JSaryuszWolski: "Role of social media in "EuroMaidan essential" || #Ukraine http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/role-of-social-media-in-euromaidan-movement-essential-332749.html … #EPP
 Retweeted by Jacek Saryusz-Wolski

NoweMedia ‏@Nowe_Media 3h
“@JSaryuszWolski: "Role of social media in EuroMaidan essential" || #Ukraine http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/role-of-social-media-in-euromaidan-movement-essential-332749.html …”
 Retweeted by Jacek Saryusz-Wolski

max seddon ‏@maxseddon 5h
Report on Ukraine protest violence, including against journalists and the elderly, from @HRW http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/12/03/ukraine-excessive-force-against-protesters … #euromaidan
 Retweeted by Jacek Saryusz-Wolski

acek Saryusz-Wolski
‏@JSaryuszWolski
VIDEO interview with @GeorgiGotev @EurActiv on Ukraine minutes before the @EPP #EaP summit in Vilnius 28/11/2013 http://www.euractiv.com/video/saryusz-wolski-vilnius-turning-p-532099?utm_source=RSS_Feed&utm_medium=RSS&utm_campaign=EurActivRSS
 Reply  Retweet  Favorite   More

The New York Times ‏@nytimes 1h
Ukrainian Protesters Block Central Bank http://nyti.ms/IMMJH4
 Retweeted by Kateryna_Kruk


Just Hovens Greve ‏@JustHovensGreve 10h
Far-right agents provocateurs have been infiltrating the #Euromaidan protests in #Ukraine. http://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/anton-shekhovtsov/provoking-euromaidan … #ЄвроМайдан
 Retweeted by ER Ukraine

Steven Pifer ‏@steven_pifer 13h
@MVDatsenko Believe local ambassadors can and are doing that. Worry that #Ukraine govt will exploit presence of foreign ministers.



teven Pifer ‏@steven_pifer 13h
@SouthernF124788 @BrookingsFP  Believe it was. SM-3s in Romania, Poland too slow to engage Russian ICBMs. Nothing else to defend against.

Steven Pifer ‏@steven_pifer 13h
@b_judah  Share same goals. Just differ over which way sends strongest message. I see greater impact in ministers boycotting.
 View conversation

Daniel Baer ‏@danbbaer 1h
Asst Sec. Toria Nuland will arrive in #Kyiv tonight to lead US Del for tomorrow's #OSCE ministerial. She's been in Moldova today w/SecKerry


AndersFogh Rasmussen ‏@AndersFoghR 19h
Sovereign, independent & stable #Ukraine, firmly committed to democracy & rule of law, is key to Euro-Atlantic security. #ForMin
 Retweeted by Geoffrey Pyatt


Offline Muzh

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #80 on: December 04, 2013, 09:16:59 AM »
Yanukovych's Base Eroding In Ukraine's Russophone East
 
By Robert Coalson December 03, 2013

That old east-west divide ain't what it used to be.
 
When political crises erupt in Ukraine, the fault line traditionally runs along the twisting Dnieper River which divides the Europe-oriented western half from the pro-Russian industrial east.
 
But the current crisis, prompted by President Viktor Yanukovych's decision to hold off on signing a monumental and long-negotiated Association Agreement with the European Union, seems to be showing that that division is not so cut-and-dried as it has been in the past. The politically weakened Yanukovych cannot count on the kind of mass support -- and oligarchic financial backing -- from his home base in the east that he received in the past.
 
As protests continue in Ukraine, the focus has already shifted decisively from the Europe-Russia question to a sort of informal referendum on Yanukovych himself. And as the crisis intensifies, it increasingly illustrates how politically risky the middle course that he has tried to steer between Europe and Russia has actually been.
 
Galvanized By The EU

Nicu Popescu, a senior analyst at the EU Institute for Security Studies in Paris, says, "The front line of Ukrainian public politics seems to be moving into a kind of situation where you have quite a lot of eastern Ukrainians who are disappointed by Yanukovych. So, now the fault line runs not just between east and west, but also within the Yanukovych support groups. Some of them will continue supporting him, and some of them are disappointed by the way he misgoverned Ukraine over the last, almost four years."
 
The "ultimate driver" in the current crisis is dissatisfaction with Yanukovych, while the issue of the EU Association Agreement is really "a galvanizing factor," Popescu adds.  And, historically, the combination of splits within ruling elites and a galvanized political opposition has sometimes produced significant political shifts.
 
To be sure, the protests have been strongest in the western part of the country, which has always been opposed to Yanukovych. While hundreds of thousands were gathering in Kyiv, the situation in the eastern reaches of the country has been calmer.
 
In Donetsk, Yanukovych's political base and the epicenter of Ukraine's pro-Russian industrial core, only about 300 pro-EU protesters took to the streets over the weekend and endorsed opposition calls for the president to resign.
 
In Crimea, a region with strong ties to Moscow that hosts the base of Russia's Black Sea Fleet in Sevastopol, a few dozen pro-Yanukovych demonstrators came out over the weekend waving Russian and Belarusian flags and chanting the slogan, "Forever with Russia."
 
A deputy in the Sevastopol city council from Yanukovych's Party of Regions even initiated a petition to ask Russian President Vladimir Putin to send Russian military forces to Ukraine to restore order and protect the country from "Western secret services and their agents."
 
Support for the opposition's call for a general strike has been weak or absent in the traditionally pro-Russian regions.
 
At the same time, however, open support for Yanukovych has been muted compared to the past. A pro-Yanukovych rally scheduled for December 2 in the president's hometown of Donetsk was abruptly cancelled due to poor turnout.
 
Since his election in 2010, Yanukovych has tried to steer a middle course between Russia and the EU, a policy that now seems to have pleased neither side and left him vulnerable.
 
In 2010, he cut a surprise deal with Moscow to allow Russia's Black Sea Fleet to remain at its base in the Crimean port of Sevastopol until at least 2042, but Moscow failed to respond with the expected concessions on natural-gas prices.   At the same time, he pursued negotiations with the EU and pushed parliamentarians from his Party of Regions to pass significant reforms to improve transparency and the rule of law. Since the government announced its about-face on the Association Agreement, at least five deputies have left the Party of Regions faction in the Verkhovna Rada. Deputy Inna Bohoslovska, a formerly staunch Yanukovych supporter from the eastern city of Kharkiv, has called for his resignation.
 
Perhaps more importantly than soft public support, Yanukovych seems also to be losing the backing of many of the oligarchs who rallied to him in 2010.
 
Kataryna Wolczuk, who teaches politics and international studies at the University of Birmingham, says that the "oligarchs are crucial."
 
"They really rallied behind Yanukovych [in the past] and if he loses the support of the oligarchs, Yanukovych will have to go... There have been some fractures within the Party of Regions, but I haven't seen [them on] the scale which is needed," Wolczuk said.
  Analyst Popescu says Ukraine's oligarchs are ambivalent about whether they'd prefer risking being swallowed up by their Russian counterparts in the event of closer ties with the Moscow-led Customs Union or whether they'd be willing to take a chance with the reforms and transparency necessary for closer relations with the European Union.
 
However, many of them are unhappy with the way Yanukovych has mismanaged the balance among the oligarchs and has insinuated himself and his family among them.
 
"I don't think any of the oligarchs would actually be a huge beneficiary if Ukraine relatively quickly became a state governed by the rule of law. But at the same time they are not very pleased with the way Yanukovych played his hand. He overreached," Popescu  said.
 
"He was not careful enough in maintaining a balance among various oligarchic players. And he himself became basically one of the biggest oligarchs by promoting his family as a key hub of business activity in Ukraine, very often at the expense of oligarchs who were part and parcel of his Party of Regions."
 
Oligarch-Controlled Media

Some signs of shifting political winds are that oligarch-controlled Ukrainian media seemed to shift the tone of their coverage after the violent clashes between police and protesters in Kyiv on the night of November 29-30.
 
The Inter television network, owned by billionaire Dmytro Firtash and Yanukovych's chief of staff, Serhiy Levochkin, began showing live reports from the protests and excerpts of speeches by opposition leaders after the Kyiv violence.
 
Following a police crackdown on protesters over the weekend, Levochkin tendered his resignation -- but Yanukovych says he has refused to accept it.
 
Media outlets controlled by oligarch and former Yanukovych backer Rinat Akhmetov and by fellow oligarch Ihor Kolomoyskyi also seemed to change their tone.
 
Wolczuk says the oligarchs are united in their desire to avoid violence.
 
"The issue is to what extent [the oligarchs] believe Yanukovych can continue to deliver what they need. And it very much, in my view, depends on the popular protests and the perception of the Ukrainians being frustrated and determined to remove Yanukovych from power," Wolczuk said. 
 
"I think that would be probably the tipping point for the oligarchs because they do not want any confrontation and bloodshed."
 
Speaking to journalists on December 2, Volodymyr Prystyuk of the eastern region of Lugansk, accused the oligarch-controlled media of exaggerating anti-Yanukovych discontent in his region.
 
"[The media] show close-up shots, make it seem as if some thousands of people have come out, practically all of Lugansk is on the street and all of them are proclaiming demands about resignation [of the president]," Prystyuk said.
 
"But that isn't happening. And I call to other regions of eastern Ukraine and the picture is the same. I call to Donetsk, Dniepropetrovsk, Zaporozhie, Kharkiv, and the picture is the same. What does this mean? And we know who organized the story with the last so-called Orange Revolution. We know how this is all manipulated. And we know that now there will be attempts to bring money into this region to increase the number of people protesting."
 
Of course, Yanukovych is a political survivor and it is unclear what kind of support Moscow might give him to help him through the current crisis and, if he weathers that, the 2015 presidential election. Ukraine's pro-Western opposition, although currently galvanized, is notoriously prone to fragmentation.
 
But the days for Kyiv's middle course seem to be numbered.
 
RFE/RL
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #81 on: December 04, 2013, 09:42:36 AM »
http://online.wsj.com/news/article_email/SB10001424052702304579404579236142724307408-lMyQjAxMTAzMDAwNDEwNDQyWj


Fed Eases Ukraine's Path to Crisis
Loose Money Allowed Ukraine to Avoid Tough Decisions

Quote
By RICHARD BARLEY CONNECT
Dec. 3, 2013 1:13 p.m. ET
The situation in Kiev looks ugly. Pro-Western protesters faced violence from riot police in Ukraine's capital at the weekend and the government endured a no-confidence vote Tuesday. Bond investors face a rising risk of losses.

The immediate cause is President Viktor Yanukovych's high-stakes gamble in refusing to sign a trade-and-political accord with the European Union, instead favoring closer ties with Russia. But the U.S. Federal Reserve's quantitative-easing program has played a part too.

 . . .


Offline TomT

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #82 on: December 04, 2013, 09:58:05 AM »
You might want to revise your previous post.


No, my two points remain valid whether LT's thoughtless post was rehabilitated or not. I would like to add a third axiom, though: if one poll shows a 39/37 split and another shows a 45/14 split, then the polls are as corrupt as everything else is in Ukraine.

Be that as it may, it should have been clear that reply #71 refuted the preposterous notion that everyone over and under 45 voted as a solid block and reply #75 was in response to LT's link that failed to indicate the number of respondents.


Offline Daveman

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #83 on: December 04, 2013, 10:13:45 AM »
A poll with fewer than a thousand respondents is junk and one which doesn't state the number of respondents is less than junk, no matter how large a font size that you choose.


Well, yes, and no... you are correct in that it is far from definitive, however, a number/percentage that far off from expectation should normally lead to the decision that an in depth widespread proper survey is warranted.


Neither junk nor less than junk, but not at the level of credible for conclusionary purpose either.  It's an indicator that something is worth looking into further.



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Offline TomT

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #84 on: December 04, 2013, 10:46:51 AM »

Well, yes, and no... you are correct in that it is far from definitive, however, a number/percentage that far off from expectation should normally lead to the decision that an in depth widespread proper survey is warranted.


Neither junk nor less than junk, but not at the level of credible for conclusionary purpose either.  It's an indicator that something is worth looking into further.


It should be clear that polls that differ by twenty-nine percentage points, yet claim to have a margin of error of three percentage points (or fewer), are virtually worthless. The light bulb doesn't seem to be going off in very many heads that the results don't reflect reality.

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #85 on: December 04, 2013, 10:53:36 AM »
If the poll was bogus, then why would a former US Ambassador cite it?

Meanwhile back in Ukraine, Azarov is fighting for his political life
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25213671


Klichko gives an interview:
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 10:57:52 AM by lordtiberius »

Offline TomT

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #86 on: December 04, 2013, 10:56:50 AM »
If the poll was bogus, then why would a former US Ambassador cite it?


"Appeal to authority"

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #87 on: December 04, 2013, 11:29:37 AM »
Estonian President says Association Agreement NOT EU membership:


Offline Muzh

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #88 on: December 04, 2013, 12:44:07 PM »
Estonian President says Association Agreement NOT EU membership:



Are you under the impression that the crowd in Independence Square are revolting for EU membership?
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Daveman

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #89 on: December 04, 2013, 01:05:40 PM »

a number/percentage that far off from expectation should normally lead to the decision that an in depth widespread proper survey is warranted.




It should be clear that polls that differ by twenty-nine percentage points, yet claim to have a margin of error of three percentage points (or fewer), are virtually worthless. The light bulb doesn't seem to be going off in very many heads that the results don't reflect reality.


Which results?   One or both could be a reflection of a political slant.  Polls are often used to sway perceptions with little regard to reality. The proclivity for disingenuity in the camps of either pollsters or analysts (or those pulling their strings) cannot be discounted.  When numbers vary to such a degree it is a clear indicator of something.  That's the beacon which should be sparking into brightness regarding any poll derivative.



The duty of a true patriot is to protect his country from its government. -- Thomas Paine

Offline TomT

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2013, 03:11:34 PM »
One or both could be a reflection of a political slant.

Damn right!

Take a look at how Mason-Dixon, The Florida Times, Gravis Marketing, Rasmussen, Fox, ARG and Sunshine State News tried to influence the outcome in Florida during the last presidential election. Multiply their BS by a factor of ten and we have what's going on in Ukraine. It's impossible to say where the truth lies.


[Edit for spelling]
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 05:18:01 PM by TomT »

Offline jone

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #91 on: December 04, 2013, 03:29:51 PM »
I read a bunch of articles on that perspective after the election.  I'm not convinced that such was the case.  Those who look at polling numbers every day realize that they are are based on a probability model.  Therefore, with the polling of a thousand people, and based on their aptitude, certain inferences can be drawn.

When I looked at the Ukrainian polling models that were related in the base assumptions, the large disparity was not due to rejection of the Russian offering, but more to the expectation that the EU offer was going to be signed. 

The modeling that was done was based on polling done in the past Presidential elections and the tendencies of certain population centers to vote a certain way.  Predictive polling can be off, but not by gross numbers, just by small numbers.  In the Obama/Romney election, the difference between Romney and Obama in Florida was NOT within the margin of error, but based, largely on the base numbers of Republicans and Democrats assumed by the polling entities.  These were the numbers that were skewed.

Even so, the polls were off less than 10% of the final tally.  If that were the case in Ukraine, then the headlines are still accurate.
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Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #92 on: December 04, 2013, 03:44:31 PM »
Ukraine is not Greece, or Bulgaria, or Romania.  In addition to the world's most fertile land, it also has abundant resources, and many industries, such as aeronautics, shipbuilding (granted, in decline), and weapons.  Its problem, in terms of GDP is not a lack of an educated, motivated work force, or resources to make it a full fledged functioning European country, but rather, its elite classes.  Comprised almost entirely of the former nomenklatura and their offspring, this elite has zero interest in the economic well being, or the improvement of the life of the masses.  Rather, their outlook on life has always been grab as much as you can, as soon as you can, by any means possible.  They basically transformed their political power, which continued unabated on the collapse of the USSR, into economic power.   It is this corruption which keeps Ukraine poor, as it permeates the society from the president's office all the way down to the village mayor who runs the local brick factory, and who, rather than pay his workers, builds himself a mansion and imports a Lexus or Mercedes with the worker's wages.

  I am well and truly over those  that keep rubbishing Ukraine-- in every aspect. It has been an extremely difficult fallout from the FSU breakup and Ukraine has been left on it's own to fend for itself. If it had had a big brother state to assist eg as East Germany did with West Germany in the German integration the situation in Ukraine could have been vastly different today.
 Instead--the wealth of the country was diverted into the hands of the privileged few-- btw Mrs Boe --that did not start under the Orangistas!!
What the Orange period showed -- was that the people have a voice-- and they want it heard.In the long run--one way or another the peoples "will " will prevail.
There is an important point about Ukraine that sets it aside-- the standard of education has been very high-- excellent in many technical areas.What is needed is the investment to change that and start capitalising on some of the advantages  that Ukraine has. :) :) :'(
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #93 on: December 04, 2013, 04:53:07 PM »

Offline Muzh

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #94 on: December 05, 2013, 09:42:41 AM »
  I am well and truly over those  that keep rubbishing Ukraine-- in every aspect. It has been an extremely difficult fallout from the FSU breakup and Ukraine has been left on it's own to fend for itself. If it had had a big brother state to assist eg as East Germany did with West Germany in the German integration the situation in Ukraine could have been vastly different today.
 Instead--the wealth of the country was diverted into the hands of the privileged few-- btw Mrs Boe --that did not start under the Orangistas!!
What the Orange period showed -- was that the people have a voice-- and they want it heard.In the long run--one way or another the peoples "will " will prevail.
There is an important point about Ukraine that sets it aside-- the standard of education has been very high-- excellent in many technical areas.What is needed is the investment to change that and start capitalising on some of the advantages  that Ukraine has. :) :) :'(

You sound a little confused.
 
First, it was West Germany who behaved like a big brother to East Germany in the integration process. And then you refer to Ukraine as needing a big brother to integrate. Like who? Poland or Russia. Pick your poison.
 
Also, the full scale robbery started with the Orangistas. Not the people but the scum who draped themselves in Orange scarfs claiming to be "for the people." Fcuking scum. Nothing but old KGB bastards.
 
Finally, the people always had the voice, it just happens that they were in diapers. Literally.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #95 on: December 05, 2013, 04:40:33 PM »

You sound a little confused.
 
First, it was West Germany who behaved like a big brother to East Germany in the integration process. And then you refer to Ukraine as needing a big brother to integrate. Like who? Poland or Russia. Pick your poison.
 


Words say it--  IF.........(Ukraine had  a big brother LIKE ) East Germany DID with West Germany looking after it  etc  . to spell it out for you it was a soift landing for a repressed state and it's people.The point being made is that was NOT the situation in Ukraine and in the ensuing chaos(over a period of time) the countries assets have been plundered.

No confusion from me-- but clearly reading comprehension needs brushing up before telling me I am confused. :cluebat: :cluebat:
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #96 on: December 05, 2013, 05:47:35 PM »
I have been watching Administrations come and go since the end of the Cold War.  I don't think Americans understand or appreciate Ukraine, its strategic importance or the opportunity it offers.  Lets hope Brussels does.

Offline TomT

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #97 on: December 05, 2013, 06:20:51 PM »
Your reading comprehension is fine, Muzh; he doesn't know East from West.

Offline JayH

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #98 on: December 06, 2013, 12:21:10 AM »
 :deadhorse:
Your reading comprehension is fine, Muzh; he doesn't know East from West.


Ukraine has been left on it's own to fend for itself.

 If it had had a big brother state to assist

eg as East Germany did with West Germany in the German integration the situation in Ukraine could have been vastly

Instead--the wealth of the country was diverted into the hands of the privileged few-

I equate Ukraine with East Germany as both countries  came out  of the cold war situation to rejoin the world. West Germany  made that landing softer for East Germany .
How much clearer could it be?
Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill !!
Clearly carrying bags affects your comprehension too !! :welcome:
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 12:26:52 AM by JayH »
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

lordtiberius

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Re: Ukraine rejects EU
« Reply #99 on: December 06, 2013, 12:01:00 PM »

For the eye candy watchers, 23 year old Femem activist Inna Shevchenko contributes to this discussion French TV:


To close the segment Ms. Shevchenko prophesies that Ukraine will join the Europe.  The French Aslyee hails from Kherson, hardly a pro-facist sympathizer from Western Ukraine as Russia (putin) Tv makes her out to be.

Iranian State TV says that the EU made a bad deal and tactically  blew it.  Ukraine exports $ 16 Billion to Russia and $ 17 Billion to Europe and that Europe did offer anything to Russia to compensate it if Russia acted on its threat to go to a trade war.  EU tactically blundered by tying Tymoshenko's release to the agreement.

But what would Russia gain by a trade war?  Russia also imports $ 17.5 B into the Ukrainian economy and is the 4th in foreign investment into Ukraine behind the United States and the Euorpean Union.  A trade war would risk that investment.


http://rt.com/business/eu-trade-deal-vilnius-449/

 

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