Relocate in old age, where to?

[The Natural]

Seems to me the western world is on a path to disintegration. Won’t dwell on that here. Just want to hear your thoughts about the alternatives in, say the next 10-15 years.

I expect to be debt free in 10 years. House paid off but of course nobody knows what the house value will be then. Save a little in gold and silver (physical now and in the meantime).

I am thinking a little about where to retire to when the times comes. Thought a little about a pretty high-end apartment in Crimea, but my wife is skeptical (she’s Crimean). Says it’s too criminal and too different (to live grand) to the big masses living in poverty (unless you’re a criminal). Told her I can turn criminal once I’m a senior citizen, but she just smiled at me.

That her relatives experienced their property just being stolen in Moscow, just add to the feeling of it being too high risk of being invested in Russia. Even though I’m a fan of Russia, I’m still aware of the three big problems there; crime, corruption and beaucrocracy.

So where to go to enjoy the last years of one’s miserable life, somewhere where there’s sunshine more than just a couple of months a year, low cost country where a pension will last pretty well and where the political situation is stable? Any ideas?

[Slumba]

You can emigrate to Pitcairn Island, nestled in the South Pacific (I think that area is still classed that way).

http://www.pitcairn.pn/

They will give you land for free, to build your own house.  Need to show that you have about $20K USD available.  The sunsets should be beautiful. 

On a more serious note, southern areas of Spain like those near Grenada might be nice, some areas get 300 days of sunshine each year.

[The Natural]

On a more serious note, southern areas of Spain like those near Grenada might be nice, some areas get 300 days of sunshine each year.

Glad to hear you provided me a more serious note Slumba :-)

Spain is always an option, weatherwise at least. Politically, who knows in the future? Seems like at lot of 40 million Spaniards not content, these days. I might confer with the Brother of my ex-wife which is fluent in English (live in Australia) to get his honest opinion :-)

[Gator]

One option is Costa Rica.  Mountains or beach.  The capital San Jose is not beautiful. 

Many Americans and some Europeans have retired there. Ticans attach much value to environmental protection, and the country receives much ecotourism.  I have vacationed there three times.   If you like growing your own fruits and vegetables, and raising some cattle or goats, this place is a dream.  No water problems. 

Two seasons.  Lots of sunshine in the dry season (winter).  Much rain in the wet season (mostly the summer but it too can have many sunny days dependent upon El Nino).  Even though the country is small, climate varies.  The Caribbean side is hot and humid in summer, while the northwest Pacific side is warm and drier in the summer. 

More economically and politically stable than other Central American countries.  So stable they don't have a military.  Low crime.   Much safer than Mexico.  The police force is directly mostly at catching illegal aliens from Nicaragua (an indication of how the CR economy is far better).  Immigration requires an attorney, yet should be doable for a Norwegian.

Rumor has it that Panama to the south is improving, and could be an option.  If you are adventurous and thinking long-term, consider Cuba. 

[alex330]

One option is Costa Rica.  Mountains or beach.  The capital San Jose is not beautiful.   

More economically and politically stable than other Central American countries.  So stable they don't have a military.  Low crime.   Much safer than Mexico.  The police force is directly mostly at catching illegal aliens from Nicaragua (an indication of how the CR economy is far better).  Immigration requires an attorney, yet should be doable for a Norwegian.

Rumor has it that Panama to the south is improving, and could be an option.  If you are adventurous and thinking long-term, consider Cuba.

I bought my retirement property in CR many years back. It is beautiful and has many benefits as you mention, but...

The low crime rate is untrue and they cover it up to avoid scaring off tourists. Maybe not as bad as Nica or Honduras, but still very dangerous and violent. Immigration and new laws targeting foreigners are on the uptick as well. Some of them are outlandish and many expats are beginning to move away. But if anyone is interested I do know of some very nice properties for sale

There are water problems in Guanacaste in the north, and even my neighborhood rations during the dry season.

Northern Panama is very nice as long as you are not in the lowlands. But it is not cheap to live nicer areas there.

EDIT - The new hot spot for expats in LATAM is Ecuador.

[Noch1]

this question really depends on how much money you have and the lifestyle you prefer to live.
I my first choice would be Monaco, but I can't afford it.
the list goes down from that point

[ML]

Biggest concern in retirement years will be health care.

For USA citizens, you pay into medicare until you die, but medicare will not cover your medical expenses outside of USA.

Thus, pretty foolhardy (irresponsible, bullheaded, harebrained) to plan to live outside of USA.

Don't know what the situation is for citizens of other modern countries.

[Gator]

I bought my retirement property in CR many years back. It is beautiful and has many benefits as you mention, but...

The low crime rate is untrue and they cover it up to avoid scaring off tourists. Maybe not as bad as Nica or Honduras, but still very dangerous and violent. Immigration and new laws targeting foreigners are on the uptick as well. Some of them are outlandish and many expats are beginning to move away. But if anyone is interested I do know of some very nice properties for sale

There are water problems in Guanacaste in the north, and even my neighborhood rations during the dry season.

Northern Panama is very nice as long as you are not in the lowlands. But it is not cheap to live nicer areas there.

EDIT - The new hot spot for expats in LATAM is Ecuador.

Very interesting Alex about the crime.  I did see an armored truck stopped in front of a bank with 3-4 heavily armed guards outside.  So  the place has banditos.  Crime is a problem in many places of the world, making me appreciate the good ol' USA more and more. 

I would think a national water resources plan would solve the Guanacaste shortage.  When the climate is sunny and dry in the summer, one would expect water controls, yet I did not expect rationing.   My first trip to CR was 23 years ago, and I noticed much had changed when we vacationed there this past summer.

Ecuador is indeed lovely, although the beaches are not as nice as in CR.  The Amazon region is as eco-rich as CR, but I must admit that I traveled there and Peru 30 years ago.

One problem with getting old - the world is developing rapidly and the great travel adventure memories from decades ago can not be duplicated.    The beach at Manuel Antonio was as pristine as any 23 years ago.  This summer it was unrecognizable.   I can not imagine 23 years from now. 

[Gator]

Biggest concern in retirement years will be health care.

For USA citizens, you pay into medicare until you die, but medicare will not cover your medical expenses outside of USA.

Thus, pretty foolhardy (irresponsible, bullheaded, harebrained) to plan to live outside of USA.

Don't know what the situation is for citizens of other modern countries.

Medical costs are much lower in many parts of the world (for a valid reason, namely not nearly as good).   

I am the optimist.  If something happens when I am in the Golden Triangle, does it matter provided I don't suffer.    Came close twice, and don't remember any of it.  One can not look back with regrets if one is dead.  My wife reluctantly promised me to do what Carrie did for Quinn in Homeland's final episode last night. 

[alex330]

Very interesting Alex about the crime.  I did see an armored truck stopped in front of a bank with 3-4 heavily armed guards outside.  So  the place has banditos.  Crime is a problem in many places of the world, making me appreciate the good ol' USA more and more. 

The beach at Manuel Antonio was as pristine as any 23 years ago.  This summer it was unrecognizable.  I can not imagine 23 years from now.

All kinds of violent crime and robberies. Home invasions and muggings are very common. The police do not try to stop most of it as they side with the locals and are afraid of them.

Manuel Antonio is now dangerous as is Jaco. We are an hour away and never venture up that way. The Costanera's completion has spiked crime in our once quiet area.

Biggest concern in retirement years will be health care.

For USA citizens, you pay into medicare until you die, but medicare will not cover your medical expenses outside of USA.

This has been one of the biggest problems for the older couples in our area. After retiring and aging they now need to re-retire back to the US due to medical issues.

[fathertime]

So where to go to enjoy the last years of one’s miserable life, somewhere where there’s sunshine more than just a couple of months a year, low cost country where a pension will last pretty well and where the political situation is stable? Any ideas?

Hey Natural,


Roughly how much money monthly do you expect to be coming in after your move? Will you have a large savings?


I'm inclined towards Latin American countries.  You might take a look at Mexico.


Fathertime!

[krimster2]

Hey Mr. Natural,
   I actually gave Crimea a try, bought a very large lovely apartment right on the beach next to Chersonese and fixed it up to western standards, also bought 3 adjacent dachas and merged them together into a mega-dacha and built a 3 story farm house there.

I lasted 3 years.  However you feel about the conditions in the West is nothing compared to the reality of living in Crimea.  All your property has to have barred windows, doors that look like they belong to a bank vault, and you can never park your car somewhere out in the open unprotected, little details like that.  Be prepared to have to have protect yourself as well when the local dudes decide they want to impress their girlfriends by attacking a non-Russian, this happened to me twice, and my daughter had to stop me from killing one of them (that would’ve cost me a lot of money!).  I moved back to the USA to a low cost state, and I never once regretted it.  There’s a huge difference in being dissatisfied over what you read in the news and what the conditions are that you personally live in.  Sure, I don’t like the news that I read in the West, but I don’t have bars on my door here.  Mail actually gets delivered here.  I don’t walk past drunks passed out on the ground here (or dead people in the winter), and I don’t have to get into fights because I happen not to be Russian.  The contrast in living conditions between the West and Crimea, is the difference between Earth and Sky.  Sounds nice living in Crimea, I sure thought so when I moved there, but then reality (literally)hit
Zaboot!

[ML]

I am the optimist.  If something happens when I am in the Golden Triangle, does it matter provided I don't suffer.

That's just hopeful thinking that you will die instantaneously.

In reality, you will be in poor health over a long period of time.  You will either suffer greatly in a third world country, or get the best medical treatment in the world . . . that you have already paid for.

This idea of what Shangri-La to retire to reminds me of the pie-in-the-sky ideas that many have of moving to the country side and living off the land.  Sure, it can be done, but not by many, and most will give up within a short period of time after having sunk more money into the venture than the ever save in food costs, etc.

Here is the reality of retiring to another country, as posted by Alex:

This has been one of the biggest problems for the older couples in our area. After retiring and aging they now need to re-retire back to the US due to medical issues.

- - - -

So if you do this . . . be realistic . . . and understand that you will have to 'undo' it a few years down the road.

[The Natural]

Hey Mr. Natural,
   I actually gave Crimea a try, bought a very large lovely apartment right on the beach next to Chersonese and fixed it up to western standards, also bought 3 adjacent dachas and merged them together into a mega-dacha and built a 3 story farm house there.

I lasted 3 years.  However you feel about the conditions in the West is nothing compared to the reality of living in Crimea.  All your property has to have barred windows, doors that look like they belong to a bank vault, and you can never park your car somewhere out in the open unprotected, little details like that.  Be prepared to have to have protect yourself as well when the local dudes decide they want to impress their girlfriends by attacking a non-Russian, this happened to me twice, and my daughter had to stop me from killing one of them (that would’ve cost me a lot of money!).  I moved back to the USA to a low cost state, and I never once regretted it.  There’s a huge difference in being dissatisfied over what you read in the news and what the conditions are that you personally live in.  Sure, I don’t like the news that I read in the West, but I don’t have bars on my door here.  Mail actually gets delivered here.  I don’t walk past drunks passed out on the ground here (or dead people in the winter), and I don’t have to get into fights because I happen not to be Russian.  The contrast in living conditions between the West and Crimea, is the difference between Earth and Sky.  Sounds nice living in Crimea, I sure thought so when I moved there, but then reality (literally)hit
Zaboot!

Interesting story, thanks krimster. Very valid imformation and in line With what my wife tells me; too much crime. So Russia is out if Things stay the same as now, some 20 years Down the road. We talked a little informal about it but she said she don't favor Crimea for those reasons. She would rather og to countries like Spain, Greece or perhaps Cypros.

Health issues is of course of the utmost importance. That, as well as the distance will probably leave out countries outside Europe. We have socialized medicine and will be covered inside the EU countries (if the EU still exsists then, haha).

One thing many do is own or rent a house and stay in a warm country during the Winters and spend the summers at home.

[krimster2]

things in Crimea are now much worse under Russian rule than Ukrainian.  Simferopol airport used to have a 3 hour 45 min flight to Berlin, from there you could catch DB to any train station in continental Europe and the UK in just a few hours, or you could fly to Istanbul in just 45 minutes.  Those days are gone and now you have to fly to Moscow first and then catch another flite to your intended destination, plus credit cards don't work at all in Crimea now.  Meest no longer delivers to Crimea.  Also consider that the Duma is considering a bill to make Sevastopol a "closed city" again.  So if you buy property there you might not be allowed to live there unless you acquire Russian citizenship.  My way of dealing with the negative impact of all the "bad news" in the media, is to stop listening to it and just focus on the things around me, my family, my neighborhood, and not worry about the rest of the world, I feel a lot better this way, ignorance is bliss!

[Slumba]

So from reading the replies, it seems there are 2 aspects of relocation:

1. rent and ongoing monthly expenses

2. extraordinary expenses, such as emergency medical care, or long-term disease/incapacitation

Depending on what you perceive the ratio of #1 and #2 is will have an impact on what you consider.

Note that checking out countries that have "medical tourism" might be useful if #2 is on your mind, as these places often have a high degree of medical skill, and Western-class hospitals; along with inexpensive private nursing care.

Looking for a hospital that was "JCAHO" certified used to be an indicator of quality - however I think that JCAHO was changed to some other designation.

[Muzh]

It all depends.


For right-wingers you'll need to find the Nazi du jour country. Like right now, France followed closely by England would be heaven for ultra-right wingers.


Some tropical islands with very low population density may accept ultra-right wingers as long as they keep to themselves and bring lots of money. What the hell, if you have lots of money, even Hitler would find a tropical paradise.

[tfcrew]

Seems to me the western world is on a path to disintegration. 

Given that, it is best to prepare when one is young [acquire property and pay off any mortgage ASAP]

[LAman]

Natural, I have thought about this for a few years now, so I saved a few articles that gave me some ideas as to which possibilities to look at. (Couple articles are a few years old)

 I still consider Equador to be best choice based on the most important things for me..............comfortable living and medical needs (see last article)



http://finance.yahoo.com/news/retire-pacific-1-200-per-161307841.html

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/10-countries-where-retirees-live-large.html

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pacific-coast-retirement-1-000-143634534.html

Someone mentioned Costa Rica, fun place and very lush greenery. I never saw the crime that as has been mentioned. Not in San Jose or Jaco . I know one thing, never let a girl out of your site, she will grab anything not nailed down!!  A good friend moved to San Jose and bought an apt building. Lots of low life business dealings there. Still many, many backpackers travel there.

add edit: found this article for 2015 about Equador.

http://internationalliving.com/2015/01/ecuador-the-worlds-best-retirement-haven-in-2015/

[southernX]

lol

we wont need to worry about this dilemma

we might downsize  the house , but move from australia ???

you bloody kidding me 

SX

[ML]

Those from USA who are looking at countries where medical care might be good and inexpensive are still missing an important consideration.

USA citizens have paid into Medicare forever.
The coverage is good; and most will purchase a supplemental policy to cover what Medicare does not cover.  These supplemental policies must be purchased at age 65 to get the lowest rates.  If you delay purchase beyond this point, there are premium penalties that increase over time.  (logic:  they don't want you to wait and take out these policies only when you have large expenses coming along.)

The upshot is, that your incremental medical care cost in USA will be less than in these other supposedly low cost places.  The key word is 'incremental', given that you have already paid into Medicare whether you use it or not.

Note:  This analysis does not apply to time periods before you become eligible for Medicare and the associated supplemental policies.

[Slumba]

Those from USA who are looking at countries where medical care might be good and inexpensive are still missing an important consideration.

USA citizens have paid into Medicare forever.
The coverage is good; and most will purchase a supplemental policy to cover what Medicare does not cover.  These supplemental policies must be purchased at age 65 to get the lowest rates.  If you delay purchase beyond this point, there are premium penalties that increase over time.  (logic:  they don't want you to wait and take out these policies only when you have large expenses coming along.)

The upshot is, that your incremental medical care cost in USA will be less than in these other supposedly low cost places.  The key word is 'incremental', given that you have already paid into Medicare whether you use it or not.

Note:  This analysis does not apply to time periods before you become eligible for Medicare and the associated supplemental policies.

There really is not a way to calculate this, in that you don't know what will happen. 

Some level of Medicare coverage does cover you outside the USA, but the Medicare.gov site is not very clear about it without probably 30 minutes or more of reading.

Emergency coverage will be cheap in almost any case (you fell and broke your arm); but the real costs are with a chronic long-term disease. 

In general, you can more easily get house calls, in-home nursing care, etc. for far, far less.  As an example, in 2010 my mom was spending several hundred dollars a month, for temporary assistance from a nurse's aid.  When she needed full time assistance the cost was over $3K per month; after that she went into a nursing home ($6500 to $8K per month depending on whether the govt paid or she paid).

For $500 a month, you could get half-time or full-time nursing care (4 to 8 hours a day every day) in many countries such as the Philippines, Vietname, Mexico (outside expensive areas), Ukraine outside of Kiev, etc.

[Anotherkiwi]

Medical costs are much lower in many parts of the world (for a valid reason, namely not nearly as good).

While that may be true in less-developed areas (the "third world" countries), the standard of care in countries such as New Zealand and Australia is hardly less than that in the USA.  The extra expense in the USA mainly appears (from outside) to represent the horrendous cost of malpractice insurance to guard against the litigiousness of the American populace.

[cc3]

Received my Ukrainian TRP yesterday, registered at my address today; I am a totally legalized Lviv, Ukraine resident for the next few years of my dotage! 

[krimster2]

"back in the day" Ukraine used to have a 5 year multi-entry private visa.  if you were married to a Ukrainian citizen it was good enough reason for Ukraine to issue you one. this required me to register every 6 months with OVIR and don't forget to bring a "present" when I do.  the advantage of this approach is that I had no taxation or income reporting requirement.  what are your requirements for the TRP?  do you have to report foreign income, are you taxed on it?