Mars gave a very interesting account of the various ladies, but he was hooted off the board. Seeing the response he got, I decided to tell nothing about my gals. As a result, my trip report is really not an interesting report about the ladies at all. But that is all that is allowed here by the gals and WOVO guys.
Of course, one drawback is that you also hook up with gals who, as you say, might have zero interest in moving to another country (since they have shown no interest in learning English).
Day 1: Saturday, June 27
I have a thing for tall, petite blondes with blue eyes.
Ooooppps, I don't know if you can have both in one woman: tall and petite that is.
But, she smiles and lightly grips my end as I walk off the metro to go home.
Did you mean to say 'hand' rather than 'end' ? If it were really your end, then it would be pretty exciting, I would think!
Later, both girls send me SMS messages saying they enjoyed being with me and want to see me again. I don’t reply to either one: it’s good to keep them guessing a little.
Don't know about that. Seems a little rude to not reply.
Quote from: ManLookingOf course, one drawback is that you also hook up with gals who, as you say, might have zero interest in moving to another country (since they have shown no interest in learning English).
That is a bit simplistic. A woman could simply have studied other languages such as German. Or the thought of meeting a foreigner and moving to another country may simply have never crossed her mind or was not q priority.
For those that haven't visited (probably everyone reading), many of the 'cages' are simply fenced off areas of the natural forest, and you get to see a rare Liger.
TwoBit, love the title of your thread and your TR; keep up the good writing.
Question: with all the letters you've written and received, has nobody sparked an interest deserving of more than a brief coffee date? Not a single brilliant writer with potential of being a great life partner clearly visible through letters alone?
PrefaceI hope your 1st trip is successful...
I picked a city, then targeted girls from 24-30. I wrote to around six or seven hundred (no, that’s not a typo) girls,
If a man writes to 1000 ladies on his 1st trip, then what will he do if the 1st trip is not successful? Write back to the same 1000 ladies and tell them he is sorry they were not one of his 1st round draft choices, but he would like to meet her on his 2nd trip?
If a man writes to 1000 ladies on his 1st trip, then what will he do if the 1st trip is not successful? Write back to the same 1000 ladies and tell them he is sorry they were not one of his 1st round draft choices, but he would like to meet her on his 2nd trip?
Seems like it would be better to start earlier, write 20 letters at a time to the ladies you like best, until you have enough for your 1st trip. Leave the others for your 2nd or 3rd trip...
On the mamba network that TwoBit is using, there are 7,999 profiles for the city of Novosibirsk of women between the ages of 25 and 35. Hypothetically speaking, he could make at least 8 trips before having to write to the same woman twice from this age range. Of course, there are always new women creating profiles every day, so he could possibly add even more hypothetical trips :evil:
If a man writes to 1000 ladies on his 1st trip, then what will he do if the 1st trip is not successful? Write back to the same 1000 ladies and tell them he is sorry they were not one of his 1st round draft choices, but he would like to meet her on his 2nd trip?
Seems like it would be better to start earlier, write 20 letters at a time to the ladies you like best, until you have enough for your 1st trip. Leave the others for your 2nd or 3rd trip...
I still need to figure out what happened to Anastassia from yesterday. After digging through all my emails and notes, I figured it out: I put the wrong number in my cell phone number for Anastassia! I entered Anastassia’s name but used Yulia’s phone number.
It takes good organizational skill to pull off a VM trip. You lucked out this time; it could have been a disaster, the type where you lose both gals!! :-)
I don’t say anything about moving it from 7, I’m just like “Let’s meet at 8 by the Lenin statue on Lenin’s Square”.
Anastassia doesn’t question why I didn’t contact her yesterday and agrees to meet at 3 pm.
Good ploy. Many of the folks in FSU aren't that much into keeping absolute schedules/times, so this helped you in the instance at hand.
I don’t know why she’s asking, she’s knows the answer and she’s just being catty.
Yes, she is, after all, a woman.
I meet Anastassia at 3 pm. I had a great email exchange with her: her writing was interesting and she was quite educated. Right as soon as I meet her, though, I sense that something is just “off” about her.
So then you were thanking your stars you weren't on a VO trip.
So, I am officially a dumbass.Simply a juggler in a VM circus dropping a ball. It happens.
Which brings me to this question: Do you hope to find a woman who speaks English? Is it important that she has a desire to learn or, if she already has English abilitites, to improve by communicating with you?
I think it would be cool to find someone that spoke English, but it's not in my top ten list of qualities. I do care about intelligence, though. My thinking is that anyone with above-average intelligence can become fluent in another language given enough time.
Хотела сказать, что мне действительно было очень приятно удивиться и познакомиться с тобой! Ты очень приятный и интересный человек!(Translation: I wanted to say that it was really interesting to see and get acquainted with you. You're an very pleasant and interesting person.)
What do y'all think?What I think (FWIW) is, the rot I've heard constantly preached for years about you being left in no doubt if a RW is into you is just that, rot. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
What do y'all think?
Did I misread the situation, and she's attracted but just not "flamboyantly flirtatious"?
My thinking is that anyone with above-average intelligence can become fluent in another language given enough time.
It was pleasant enough to spend time with her and the conversation was interesting, but she seemed not to be that attracted to me.
It's one of the challenges to dating in another culture. Even though I've spent a fair amount of time in the FSU, the girls here are sometimes a little more difficult to read than ones in my own culture.
I personally wouldn't want to deal with the stress of TwoBit's adventure. But we each know our own limits and what we can feel comfortable with, and what we feel in control of.
My answer would be her follow up messages could be merely polite,
Simply a juggler in a VM circus dropping a ball. It happens.
I've know quite a few very intelligent people with zero language aptitude.
I didn't pick up any of the signs I normally look for like flirtatious eye contact, playing with her hair and various objects, downward-looking/submissive eyes, licking her lips, touching me, brushing my hand, etc. Did I misread the situation...What do y'all think?
TR is good and interesting. But I have to ask one question. Where do you find the desire to post on a forum while on vacation? I dont get it. So many women to meet and activities to do. Why sit around typing on a computer?
I have heard/read that there is an inverse relationship between intelligence and ability to learn a foreign language (other things such as age held constant). Something about those who can think most logically have trouble because many language rules are illogical.
I've know quite a few very intelligent people with zero language aptitude. The powers of abstract thinking, though paramount in language learning, do not guarantee success. Musical ear and good memory are better guarantees - though not 100% either.
My opinion is that you have been: a) reading too many "How to" books and b) thinking too much.
She simply may be smart enough to realize that she is just one woman of many on your long dance card. So why get revved up.
What does you gut say? It craves for more, yes, because I recall that you liked this woman for some reason. Learn more by spending more time with her. Just one more dance will not hurt.
If you do dance again, I would not be shy about asking her. Then she says she likes you and she wants to spend more time with you! You like her too. And then you squirm because this destroys your juggling plan. How you can fit her in? And you wonder what if you start really liking her! What about all these unknown women waiting for me to show up? Ain't love grand!
There is a required aptitude for learning a language well, especially a difficult one like Russian, but I don't know how you can characterize what is required.
About halfway through the meal Lena asks if she can smoke. I play it cool and say it’s no problem, but I’m surprised. For me, smoking is a showstopper. I kept careful notes to make sure I either asked each girl if she smokes or make sure she said that on her profile. I’m not sure how I missed this one. I resolve to go figure it out: did I miss a detail or did she lie? (She subsequently smoked a second cigarette.)
Note to new guys: Unlike most other recent trip reports here, notice that TBB is in complete control of his trip. He's not whining that an agency is overcharging him or controlling access to the women he wrote. He's not relying on his driver's or interpreter's opinion of the women he's meeting. He's taking control of his situation.
What do y'all think?
You treat any lady wrong in an agency it gets back to the agency and spreads to all the girls.
When this started, I expected TwoBitBandit to have 4-5 dates per day in a speed dating format. Considering he has 16 days, I was anticipating 40 women in total. IMO that would be too many.
My only question is why didn't he connect with someone when he tried this before. :D
Note to new guys: Unlike most other recent trip reports here, notice that TBB is in complete control of his trip. He's not whining that an agency is overcharging him or controlling access to the women he wrote. He's not relying on his driver's or interpreter's opinion of the women he's meeting. He's taking control of his situation.
About halfway through the meal Lena asks if she can smoke. I play it cool and say it’s no problem, but I’m surprised. For me, smoking is a showstopper. I kept careful notes to make sure I either asked each girl if she smokes or make sure she said that on her profile. I’m not sure how I missed this one. I resolve to go figure it out: did I miss a detail or did she lie? (She subsequently smoked a second cigarette.)
I may succeed or I may fail,
The hardest thing I had to do was to explain to a liberal arts major that when you multiplied two negatives you got a positive. I remember her counter-argument: "Wouldn't multiplying two negative numbers be even MORE negative?"
Russians know that their language is difficult, and many people have told me that they've never met a foreigner that speaks as well as me.
Elena (date from last night) sent me an SMS this morning asking if I made it home OK. Then on mamba she sent me this messageI have a feeling that russians usually dont use word действительно to be polite. Just a feeling though :P She used it to emphasize that it was REALLY interesting to meet you. Id say she might be interested. If i just wanted to be polite, i would probably just say "thx for a nice time". Not that "it was really interesting to meet you".
(Translation: I wanted to say that it was really interesting to see and get acquainted with you. You're an very pleasant and interesting person.)
I have a feeling that russians usually dont use word действительно to be polite. Just a feeling though :P She used it to emphasize that it was REALLY interesting to meet you. Id say she might be interested. If i just wanted to be polite, i would probably just say "thx for a nice time". Not that "it was really interesting to meet you".
On a side note, i find all your talk about "game" and "control" and rules about how long to wait to reply as silly and some sort of games. Do adult people really need to play those games? If you like someone, just say you like someone, why play games :P
Im sure i wont convince you, just saying what it looks like to me.
(I could have SWORN that I posted this last night, but now it doesn't seem to be in the thread. Did I mess up, or did the board's database eat it? In any case, I'm reposting it.)
Strange. I read this part of your report...yesterday. So you did post it.
On a side note, i find all your talk about "game" and "control" and rules about how long to wait to reply as silly and some sort of games. Do adult people really need to play those games? If you like someone, just say you like someone, why play games :P
Im sure i wont convince you, just saying what it looks like to me.
Yes I noticed this too. It is really sounds quite silly for an adult who wants to have a relationship, game players attract game players or immature people.
You're both saying that because you're women and you have the life experience of being female.
The dating advice that women often give is "be yourself." The reason women give this advice is that it is great advice for being a woman.
It's horrible advice for a man. I might offer the advice "be your best self" to a man, but then I'd qualify it with what I mean.
I can say with certainty that my dating life improved tremendously when I got better at understanding women and how to handle them. Subtle projection of confidence, keeping control of the frame, not supplicating, passing shіt tests, etc. are essential for capturing women of high value. For a small fraction of men these skills come naturally, but the rest of us have to work on them to be successful.
I'm sure that you don't believe me, but that's only because you don't have the life experience of being a man.
If I get some spare cycles I might write more about why this is. But now I'm going to bed!
These girls want to marry an American (you)
Mister Bandit!
Thanks, excellent, etc. The female perspective on game is (IMhO) semantic distortion. They link it to game, sport, recess for kids. To you it is synonym for technique, style and execution. Some of your word selection is new, probably for most.
However, I am personally inspired. Good advice has its own true value, the more so when recognized and espoused by relative youth. I have been too polite, and it got me walked on (20-20). Being coy is by nature disingenuous, and presumably forgivable as that mask is worn only to be discarded.
Like other two females before me, I also took note of TwoBitBandit’s struggle for control of the frame and determination to win in the game. I agreed with others that indeed sound foolish. I also agree with Gator, TwoBitBandit, you read too many “how to” books.
TwoBitBandit, what is the “control of the frame” and what is the benefit of having it?
Yes I noticed this too. It is really sounds quite silly for an adult who wants to have a relationship, game players attract game players or immature people.
"Game" is good for getting dates and getting laid, that's why it is so popular with 20 years old. Are you chasing 20 years old? "Game" means high amount of drama for both parts involved, do you have time for a drama? "Game" is good fun when you have time for it but does it help you to understand who is a high caliber or who is a good mate for you?
"Game" means high amount of drama for both parts involved, do you have time for a drama? "Game" is good fun when you have time for it but does it help you to understand who is a high caliber or who is a good mate for you?
These girls want to marry an American (you), they should have an idea of what you look like and who you are already, do you really need to postpone SMS response to keep them interested? They generally are already praying that you are nice and not some kind of weirdo, so they can like you....
TwoBitBandit, what is the “control of the frame” and what is the benefit of having it?
Like other two females before me, I also took note of TwoBitBandit’s struggle for control of the frame and determination to win in the game. I agreed with others that indeed sound foolish. I also agree with Gator, TwoBitBandit, you read too many “how to” books.
Thanks, excellent, etc. The female perspective on game is (IMhO) semantic distortion. They link it to game, sport, recess for kids. To you it is synonym for technique, style and execution. Some of your word selection is new, probably for most.
However, I am personally inspired. Good advice has its own true value, the more so when recognized and espoused by relative youth. I have been too polite, and it got me walked on (20-20). Being coy is by nature disingenuous, and presumably forgivable as that mask is worn only to be discarded.
Disclaimer: please please do not take it personally, I do not really know you and I do not try to tell you what you should or should not do. These are my thoughts based on a couple of your posts and I would like to have a discussion.
Hello Ranetka,Ive never met a woman who was looking for an american husband. Uusually its just a foreign husband, not specifically american :P
I'm sure TwoBit will have an answer, but I'll throw in my perspective while we wait.
TwoBit is in a unique situation. These girls weren't specifically looking to either marry or to even meet an American. They were on a Russian dating site, meeting Russian men, and out of the blue an American guy shows up.
For them it's just a different and interesting situation. It is more like a casual dating situation and TwoBit's 'game' does have more of an effect than it would with women who have sat down and made the conscious and rational decision that they are looking specifically for an American husband.
More like in normal dating he needs to 'step it up' to make these women attracted and interested.
At 6:20 I’m about to go out the door when Lena calls. I make an excuse to get off the phone and leave the flat. I’m done with Lena. If she forces the issue I’ll explain why but otherwise I’m just not going to contact her.Aha! Who was complaining here how russian girls have a great date with you and then just dont call you and dont tell you they arent interested anymore. Looky here, american guys do exact same thing!
If a woman sees that other women don’t want a man, then she doesn’t want him either. If a man has a high value woman at his side, then other women will be attracted to him immediately.
i dont go after "hard to get" men. If he isnt going out of his way to be with me, why would i want him?Aloe, in the age of dinosaurs, when I was young..........ish, social acceptability dictated "good girls" should always be (or play at being) "hard to get". Our hero is a modern man who plays a modern way.
I don’t read many books about it, but I do read some blogs and forums on the topic of handling women. Serious students of “game” have their own lingo that outsiders often misunderstand.Stephen Potter...
Women, inherently, are rather insecure creatures. They don't like competition, partially because their testosterone level is naturally lower than the men's one. If they know that several women are after the same men, few of them tend to think something like. 'Oh, everybody wants him, so I go and get him because I am the hottest woman here'. Some (the highest tempered ones ;) ) may indeed have some sort of this thinking, but a lot of women would rather feel insecure and lack confidence in such situation. Consciously, they may want to stay apart of this very attractive man, because they perceive their own chances as low. But subconsciously they also may, and probably would fall in love with that quality man. They would secretly adore this man :) let me put it this way :)
The reason here is that there is something in this particular man that attracts women. Don't ask me what ;) I don't know, BUT I immediately feel it as a woman. MY female instincts tell me this. I don't care whether other women think the same way. But the reality is that they do, irrespectively of what I think about the same man! But again, women are attracted not because he is highly sought after by others. The logic goes the other way. The reason is different. Women are independently attracted to the man because he is generally attractive for women, because he has this 'something'.
Lily is saying that all women do their analysis independently, but all are attracted to this man for their own (perhaps unknown) but maybe similar reasons.i 100000000% agree with Lily here. I definitely couldnt care less what other women think of the man, and if he has dozens of women hanging themselves on him, its rather a minus.
i 100000000% agree with Lily here. I definitely couldnt care less what other women think of the man, and if he has dozens of women hanging themselves on him, its rather a minus.
If i had a choice who to go on a date with - a macho man with tons of women running after him, or a more on the shy side guy, who doesnt go on dates very often, id choose the shy guy, hands down. There is also a lot bigger chance that he will appreciate you a lot more than the macho man with 10 women at his beck and call
If i had a choice who to go on a date with - a macho man with tons of women running after him, or a more on the shy side guy, who doesnt go on dates very often, id choose the shy guy, hands down. There is also a lot bigger chance that he will appreciate you a lot more than the macho man with 10 women at his beck and call
I don't believe you; even a little bit.
When I have a GF I get attention from women. When I am single I do not. When I am with an attractive woman in public I get TONS of attention from attractive women.. when I am alone in public, especially if I do not have a girlfriend at the time.. I get zero attention.
I do not understand it.. or even really try to explain it.. but it exists and it has often caused problems in the past because the ONLY times in my life I have had direct advances from women were when my girlfriend was sitting or standing right next to me.
And.. this is much more important.. ManLooking.. if YOU had any game.. you would know NEVER INSULT A LADY! :)
If I want to have a relationship with a woman, then I must be the leader. and “I am a high-value man capable of being a leader.” If I date a woman and she also has the frames “men are leaders” and “TwoBitBandit is a good leader” then our frames are in agreement. We have the possibility to get along because I want to lead, she wants to follow, and she trusts my judgment and enjoys my leadership.
I don't believe you; even a little bit.
I don't think Aloe is being honest, and I am being honest in telling her that.
Everyone knows that in every country of the world there are thousands of very nice men (and women) who are shy and never get any dates. This is not the case for the macho men and flirtatious women. If Aloe were correct, the situation would be reversed.
Why not? Is every woman cut from exactly the same mold with zero variation?
On a baseline, Daveman, they pretty much are. They will react to the same stimuli, women are women. I just simply believe Aloe has never met, or even been bit by a player. ;)
When I have a girlfriend and we are having relations regularly.. for whatever reason.. psychological.. chemical.. mystical.. other women notice and are more interested.. I first noticed this phenomena when i was in Uni and it has repeated dozens if not hundreds of times since.
...
“Game” is the art of generating attraction in women. As you and 2012isFiction pointed out above, game can be used to bed 20-year-old sluts in nightclubs. But game can also be used for finding a great woman to marry and share your life. It can be used to keep your wife attracted to you and keep vitality in your long-term relationship. If a man wants a woman in his life for a night, a year or a lifetime, he obviously must generate attraction in her. You can increase your attractiveness by acting in some ways rather than others. The choice of the word “game” for this isn’t really a great choice since it implies disingenuous manipulation. I’m honestly looking for a woman to marry and be the mother of my children. So I don’t believe that trying to generate attraction among them is disingenuous.
If I want to have a relationship with a woman, then I must be the leader. I say this because I have the frames “men are the leaders in relationships” and “I am a high-value man capable of being a leader.” If I date a woman and she also has the frames "men are leaders" and “TwoBitBandit is a good leader” then our frames are in agreement. We have the possibility to get along because I want to lead, she wants to follow, and she trusts my judgment and enjoys my leadership.
If a man has a high value woman at his side, then other women will be attracted to him immediately. If a man is clearly leading other men, she’ll be attracted to that. She cares a lot about what others think of the man. Status is critical. Women will very rarely "marry down" in status.
So, do you think it is because of the "lady" on your arm?
or could it possibly be that when one is with a woman, or in a relationship, that one has a projected persona of relaxed confidence as opposed to one of 'trying to impress'?
Granted there is nothing wrong with increasing your attractiveness as long as you do not pretend someone who you are not. By pretending that you are not interested in a girl while you are interested in her, you exhibit a false identity. I agree obtaining affection by false pretense can be used to bed sluts in nightclubs. However, being disingenuous when you are looking for a wife is doomed technique. You may be able to seduce high quality woman into marriage by usage of the method, but it is impossible and burdensome to maintain false pretense for 24/7, and once you are tired of doing that, your wife might start thinking about divorce on the basis of unmet expectations.
Granted there is nothing wrong with increasing your attractiveness as long as you do not pretend someone who you are not. By pretending that you are not interested in a girl while you are interested in her, you exhibit a false identity. I agree obtaining affection by false pretense can be used to bed sluts in nightclubs. However, being disingenuous when you are looking for a wife is doomed technique. You may be able to seduce high quality woman into marriage by usage of the method, but it is impossible and burdensome to maintain false pretense for 24/7, and once you are tired of doing that, your wife might start thinking about divorce on the basis of unmeet expectations.
TwoBitBandit, if you are a leader, you do not need to play games for everyone to see that. Only if you are not a leader, you need tofakeframe it. ;D
Moderator - the game talk is interesting and deserving of its own thread. Certainly it should not be here, distracting from TwoBit's fine story.
Moderator - the game talk is interesting and deserving of its own thread. Certainly it should not be here, distracting from TwoBit's fine story.
I have experience similar to this.
Dears, I see what you mean here. Your point is that when you are with your girlfriends, you receive more attention from other women, then you do when you are alone. Therefore, it seems to you that women may be more interested in you when you are taken than when you are available. Did I get you correctly?
First of all, I allow myself to doubt that what you noticed from other women around may indeed be signs of attention to you.
Last but not least, about your being attractive to others when you have a girlfriend. I suppose that when you are in love, you look different. You look happy, confident, you shine and project love and happiness around you. That can be attractive, though. You are yourself but you are a better self, let me put it that way. In this case, you indeed may be noticed by women more often than usually :)
Last but not least, about your being attractive to others when you have a girlfriend. I suppose that when you are in love, you look different. You look happy, confident, you shine and project love and happiness around you. That can be attractive, though. You are yourself but you are a better self, let me put it that way. In this case, you indeed may be noticed by women more often than usually :)
If a man has a high value woman at his side, then other women will be attracted to him immediately.
Lily,
Interesting story. Yes, men are more oblivious than women.
Some of what a man may perceive as attention from other women directed at him is really women checking out another woman, especially if his woman is beautiful, dressed fashionably, and mysterious. If his woman is this way, why would he notice other women?
Upon reading Seeker's non-decision, I will present my view about game as used here.
Is romancing analogous with selling? Those of you who have succeeded in business sales know the steps:
1. Prospecting.
2. Meeting and greeting.
3. Understanding your buyer (needs, how they make decisions, criteria they use, …).
4. Presenting your product (packaging it as a “concept” rather than “brand”).
5. Closing.
6. Filling the need.
Some “game” goes in all steps, yet the “game” discussed in this thread by those who claim to have “game” is focused on Step 2: stirring interest after meeting a prospective buyer.
The same as in selling, Steps 3, 4 and 5 are far more important than Step 2. Step 3 requires more than communication skills, it takes empathy as well as separation.
Some "game" goes in Step 4 by presenting yourself as a unique 'concept' rather than one of many 'brands.' Step 4 is interesting because you are selling yourself. You can not turn the sell over to the Engineering Department; you must deliver yourself and meet all of her expectations.
What about the part where after a successful closure, a good salesman will awaken next morning and look for another buyer? ;) :D 8)
Women want many things from just one man. Men want one thing but from different women. Here is why ;)
I agree with VWRW's post. It is one thing to use "game" to get a one night stand. The challenge is the morning after, or the eventual transition to a long-term relationship. Sure, game may be good to get a first and second date, but how do you keep it going after that?
To further Lily's point: this can apply to both men and women but more specifically women. When a man has a woman on his arm and notices more attention from other women it is all about the perception of the man. Not as much as the women suddenly finding him more attractive. The women can upon seeing the man already with a woman becomes more unguarded, open and friendly to the man sensing he is not on the prowl. The man instinctively feels his testosterone rise and his perception is the area women are coming on to him while the women see it in another entirely different light. More in terms of friendly, safe and uninterested
I have noticed the "feel" of being more attractive to women while I already have/had a woman but, Have always thought it perception and not reality.
Then there are always a certain circle of women who do in fact only wish to bed a married man. I've known many of these throughout the year also.
I 'think' women pay more attention to me when I am with a woman as opposed to being alone.
My point is if woman looks at you, it does not mean she likes you. She may be wondering what the woman sees in you or she may be thinking that Shrek is more attractive than the guy who is with the hot woman.
I thought Shrek was pretty cool. 8)
That's why finding a quality woman used to be that important, at all times.
SJ: I believe you are a native English speaker, so I am puzzled. You stated:
"Game playing" is for teenagers.
Have you not read this thread in its' entirety? If you wish to make meaningful contributions, you should know what others have already said. How could you possibly not understand his lengthy exposition on the word? Your comment makes you seem intentionally obtuse. His usage, execution and structure of explanation where excellent and obviously the opposite of your comment.
Granted there is nothing wrong with increasing your attractiveness as long as you do not pretend someone who you are not. By pretending that you are not interested in a girl while you are interested in her, you exhibit a false identity. I agree obtaining affection by false pretense can be used to bed sluts in nightclubs. However, being disingenuous when you are looking for a wife is doomed technique. You may be able to seduce high quality woman into marriage by usage of the method, but it is impossible and burdensome to maintain false pretense for 24/7, and once you are tired of doing that, your wife might start thinking about divorce on the basis of unmeet expectations.
I agree with VWRW's post. It is one thing to use "game" to get a one night stand. The challenge is the morning after, or the eventual transition to a long-term relationship. Sure, game may be good to get a first and second date, but how do you keep it going after that?
SJ and others.. try not to get the message and the nomenclature mixed up. I agree the word "game" or "gaming" can be offensive. Some of the hardcore practitioners are in fact quite offensive people. However, when adjusted for sociological and personal empowerment by an individual with honorable intentions the knowledge is invaluable. I say that simply because people are people and those who understand how people tick as well as understanding their own ways of interacting are ore likely to get positive results from their interactions.
TwoBitBandit, if you are a leader, you do not need to play games for everyone to see that. Only if you are not a leader, you need tofakeframe it. ;D
Is romancing analogous with selling? Those of you who have succeeded in business sales know the steps:
1. Prospecting.
2. Meeting and greeting.
3. Understanding your buyer (needs, how they make decisions, criteria they use, …).
4. Presenting your product (packaging it as a “concept” rather than “brand”).
5. Closing.
6. Filling the need.
Some “game” goes in all steps, yet the “game” discussed in this thread by those who claim to have “game” is focused on Step 2: stirring interest after meeting a prospective buyer.
The same as in selling, Steps 3, 4 and 5 are far more important than Step 2. Step 3 requires more than communication skills, it takes empathy as well as separation.
Some "game" goes in Step 4 by presenting yourself as a unique 'concept' rather than one of many 'brands.' Step 4 is interesting because you are selling yourself. You can not turn the sell over to the Engineering Department; you must deliver yourself and meet all of her expectations.
What about the part where after a successful closure, a good salesman will awaken next morning and look for another buyer? ;) :D 8)
Pretty simple Misha, you keep gaming her. Many relationships fail because the man gets too comfortable and or lazy in the relationship. They quit gaming or dating their spouse.
Reading your posts I think you are still gaming your wife but you dont recongnize it in those words. Its why you have a good relationship.
I laugh my butt off the way the word "gaming" causes some men to curl up in a ball. :ROFL:
Hey bud, you are about to lose control of the frame unless you step it up. You are approaching a critical point. You know the saying of...... "who ever needs the other the least has the power"......... You are falling for her and must decide weather to continue to meet other women or give Anna the rest of the week. You know you are taking a chance of losing her interest if she senses you are still meeting other women after opening up to you? If you can keep her interest level high you might be able to continue to meet other women and still see her. How are you going to do this?
She felt a connection by revealing some of her personal thoughts. You could easily deflate her if your not careful. Some women dont mind if you date other women in the early stages but if they feel something after a couple of dates and you slap them in the face by going out on a date with someone else they will eject in a hurry. Don't lead her on.
One other thing. Why are you worried about someone labeling you a sex tourist? Hell, I dont see anything close to approaching sex in your meetings.
There’s a controversial blog on the topic of handling women written by a guy who goes by the handle “Roissy.” I’d like to put aside the content of most of his blog and direct your attention at this particular post about a man named Dave in Hawaii who used “game” to save his marriage. http://roissy.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/relationship-game-week-a-readers-journey/ He had adopted a set of weak behaviors that was causing his wife to lose interest in him. He started to read about game and adopt a set of behaviors that made him more attractive to women. It saved his marriage. Being attractive to women can be used in lots of ways: it can be used to seduce and bed lots of women, or it can be used to continually seduce an individual woman and have a great relationship with her.
I see Game as a conscious effort and the stuff Dave describes is really just a personality change. He isn’t using pick-up games, he’s just telling her the damn truth and not acquiescing to her bull*snip*.
When a beautiful woman flirts with him, he tells the damn truth. That’s not Game, it’s having balls. When she bitches and moans about some trivial mistake he made, he tells her to stop bitching and moaning about the trivial mistake he made.
What he’s doing isn’t some process that takes years to master. I think that constantly trying to be an alpha male would be quite exhausting for a beta. But to act like Dave does, to stand up for yourself and not be a little bitch, that’s rather easy. It’s about asserting yourself and not taking her *snip*.
my problem with all this is,
that’s very nice as long as you don’t actually cheat on her.
But i can’t get myself to be loyal for more than 1 year.
I do handle *snip* tests well, but after some time they know I’m chasing other women.
Dave from Hawaii needs to game and *snip* chicks other than his wife. *snip*ing different vagina makes a man radiate a testosterone/alpha glow that simply “gaming” one’s wife does not. Dave’s wife will love him more for it and her ‘gina will tingle.
Years into my marriage, I just came out and told my wife that I’d be porking other chicks on occasion. It turns out that she had assumed I had already been doing so. She’s not exactly in love with the idea, but she knows I’m gonna do it anyhow, and is only afraid that I’ll actually fall in love with another (younger) woman. The brutal honesty makes the marriage stronger, and the sex hotter.and the reply to that, somebody else posted:
how many years?
I guess its different when you’re actually married, i.e. you ain’t gonna dump her easily. But in a normal LTR they just freak out. I got one actually attempting suicide.
I just slapped the *snip* out of her and *snip*ed the other girl anyway though. She eventually stopped asking after that.
“Years into my marriage, I just came out and told my wife that I’d be porking other chicks on occasion. It turns out that she had assumed I had already been doing so. She’s not exactly in love with the idea, but she knows I’m gonna do it anyhow, and is only afraid that I’ll actually fall in love with another (younger) woman. The brutal honesty makes the marriage stronger, and the sex hotter.”
BIG mistake.
Any woman who’s in love with you already assumes you *snip* other chicks. Rubbing their face in it is bad taste & implies you don’t understand how women operate.
Women universally operate on the “don’t ask don’t tell / please lie to me / tell me anything remotely plausible as long as it feels good” principle.
Later, both girls send me SMS messages saying they enjoyed being with me and want to see me again. I don’t reply to either one: it’s good to keep them guessing a little.
On the topic of SMS messages: I'll respond to them tomorrow. Part of dealing with women is keeping control of the frame. You need to express the frame "I'm the great catch, and I'm of higher market value then you." But it has to be subtle. If you always do the perfectly polite thing, you're expressing "please, please, I'll do anything for a sliver of your attention" which is a "your value is higher than mine" frame. As soon as you get in that frame, women will pick up on it and walk all over you. Doing the polite thing isn't always the right thing to do.
It was kind of surprising. It was pleasant enough to spend time with her and the conversation was interesting, but she seemed not to be that attracted to me. I didn't pick up any of the signs I normally look for like flirtatious eye contact, playing with her hair and various objects, downward-looking/submissive eyes, licking her lips, touching me, brushing my hand, etc. Did I misread the situation, and she's attracted but just not "flamboyantly flirtatious"? Is she just bored this week and fishing for a date just for something to do? Or is she stringing me along just for amusement? Or maybe she's just got that "New York Female Lawyer" sort of agro attitude toward dating?
It's one of the challenges to dating in another culture. Even though I've spent a fair amount of time in the FSU, the girls here are sometimes a little more difficult to read than ones in my own culture.
What do y'all think?
I was gifted with an IQ of 141
...
It was then that it dawned on me that everyone's mind didn't work like mine.
...
About halfway through the meal Lena asks if she can smoke. I play it cool and say it’s no problem, but I’m surprised. For me, smoking is a showstopper. I kept careful notes to make sure I either asked each girl if she smokes or make sure she said that on her profile. I’m not sure how I missed this one. I resolve to go figure it out: did I miss a detail or did she lie? She subsequently smoked a second cigarette. (I later looked at her profile and it clearly states that she doesn't smoke, so she lied on her profile.)
Disclaimer: please please do not take it personally, I do not really know you and I do not try to tell you what you should or should not do. These are my thoughts based on a couple of your posts and I would like to have a discussion.
You are not really "dating", you are meeting women to establish if you can have a relationship with them or not. "Game" is good for getting dates and getting laid, that's why it is so popular with 20 years old. Are you chasing 20 years old? "Game" means high amount of drama for both parts involved, do you have time for a drama? "Game" is good fun when you have time for it but does it help you to understand who is a high caliber or who is a good mate for you?
These girls want to marry an American (you), they should have an idea of what you look like and who you are already, do you really need to postpone SMS response to keep them interested? They generally are already praying that you are nice and not some kind of weirdo, so they can like you....
The choice of the word “game” for this isn’t really a great choice since it implies disingenuous manipulation. I’m honestly looking for a woman to marry and be the mother of my children. So I don’t believe that trying to generate attraction among them is disingenuous.
Granted there is nothing wrong with increasing your attractiveness as long as you do not pretend someone who you are not. By pretending that you are not interested in a girl while you are interested in her, you exhibit a false identity. I agree obtaining affection by false pretense can be used to bed sluts in nightclubs. However, being disingenuous when you are looking for a wife is doomed technique. You may be able to seduce high quality woman into marriage by usage of the method, but it is impossible and burdensome to maintain false pretense for 24/7, and once you are tired of doing that, your wife might start thinking about divorce on the basis of unmeet expectations.
TwoBitBandit, if you are a leader, you do not need to play games for everyone to see that. Only if you are not a leader, you need tofakeframe it. ;D
"Game playing" is for teenagers. He should be himself, be open, straightforward and honest.
She has to take the bus home and the last run is coming up, so we get the check and leave. I escort her down to the metro station. She takes my hand and holds onto it the whole way, but still won’t let me kiss her.
I ask her to meet me tomorrow. She waffles a little bit and says she'll tell me tomorrow. "Before noon" I reply. She agrees. She gives me a hug and we part.
SJ and others.. try not to get the message and the nomenclature mixed up. I agree the word "game" or "gaming" can be offensive. Some of the hardcore practitioners are in fact quite offensive people.
However, when adjusted for sociological and personal empowerment by an individual with honorable intentions the knowledge is invaluable. I say that simply because people are people and those who understand how people tick as well as understanding their own ways of interacting are ore likely to get positive results from their interactions.
J: I believe you are a native English speaker, so I am puzzled. You stated:
"Game playing" is for teenagers.
Have you not read this thread in its' entirety? If you wish to make meaningful contributions, you should know what others have already said. How could you possibly not understand his lengthy exposition on the word? Your comment makes you seem intentionally obtuse. His usage, execution and structure of explanation where excellent and obviously the opposite of your comment.
Gator, thanks for this balanced response. I believe that understanding women is crucial in all these steps. In my trip report I’m in steps two to four. So, I can see why some posters here are advancing the straw-man argument “TwoBit is adopting a set of manipulative behaviors to get past steps two to four, and it’s manipulate because those behaviors don’t apply in step six.”
I don’t agree with that argument because adopting and internalizing high-value behaviors are always useful. The same behaviors, skills and knowledge that are useful for seducing a woman in step three are just as useful as keeping her attracted in the long term (marriage) in step six.
The advice “be yourself” is great advice if you’re (a) a woman (for reasons I explained earlier in this thread) or (b) you’re satisfied with the women that the “yourself” is attracting. But I wasn’t satisfied with who I was attracting, so I changed my frame. I dropped my old frame and adopted a set of higher-value behaviors and beliefs. And I adopt those changes permanently and internalize them in my beliefs and behaviors, then I really become and am that person. The trick to getting a high-value mate isn’t to find the high-value mate. The trick is to be a high-value mate.
If I adopt a behavior with the intent of keeping it forever, then it isn’t a disingenuous or a bad strategy. If I adopt a high-value behavior and internalize it and make it part of my habit and belief system, then I really am a higher-value guy. In fact, the more dating I do the more I believe that the way to find a great partner is to be a great man.
The advice “be yourself” is great advice if you’re (a) a woman (for reasons I explained earlier in this thread) or (b) you’re satisfied with the women that the “yourself” is attracting. But I wasn’t satisfied with who I was attracting, so I changed my frame.
I literally feel like i took a dive in a pool of *snip* after reading the comments to that post about dave. The post itself is good and shows that you need to have some balls, but the comments are so repulsive, it's awful somebody would wanna associate, or god forbid learn anything from people who think like that (like in the comments i quoted, that are very common there apparently)
HER: “I’m hungry”
ME: “So am I. Let’s go.”
HER: “Go where?”
ME: “You’ll see.”
HER: “C’mon, tell me…”
ME {Rolling my eyes and turning away from her, getting ready to head out with or without her.}: “Are you gonna sit here and play twenty questions like a spoiled little princess or are you gonna come along and eat with me?”
HER {Now she starts getting ready to go.}: “C’mon…why don’t you tell me…”
At that point, I could take her to a fine-dining restaurant or McDonalds, it doesn’t matter.
Being a little bit mysterious, unpredictable and cocky is effective. And, I concede that by some definitions that makes me an аsshole.
I'm not in the frame of "I'm just a toy here to respond to your SMS messages right away".
They want the alpha male that they dream of catching to be more straightforward to that they're more able to catch him. The "nice guy" (who is sexually invisible to them) needs to become more aloof, cocky and unpredictable.
I agree that I’m in risk of losing control of the frame, because I’ve been at this place before and I have lost control of the frame in similar circumstances. I’m always open to constructive advice on how to handle it.
Pretty simple Misha, you keep gaming her. Many relationships fail because the man gets too comfortable and or lazy in the relationship. They quit gaming or dating their spouse.
Reading your posts I think you are still gaming your wife but you dont recongnize it in those words. Its why you have a good relationship.
I had noticed myself giving attention to guys that were beside hot women, who would not get my glance have they (men) been alone. Therefore, I can believe that a guy with a hot woman beside him receives more attention. However, attention does not equal attraction. Some of those guys that I saw with such women triggered repulsion or left me indifferent. Others were not that bad. My point is if woman looks at you, it does not mean she likes you. She may be wondering what the woman sees in you or she may be thinking that Shrek is more attractive than the guy who is with the hot woman.
It is easy to be a victim of wishful thinking and see what you want to see. To tell whether a woman is attracted to you or not from the eye contact and smiles is NOT easy.
If that's the sort of women you're chasing (silly chicks who fall for tricksy unpredictable "bad guys"), that's exactly what you're gonna get. Is that how you define a high-value woman, the one who likes drama and takes a lot of *snip* from you? Bonne route my friend.
Just remember that while women might take some *snip* from you during the dating phase, your continued "frame" of being a bit of a jerk will render you quite unmarketable as a prospective husband - to a really high-value woman, that is.
If you want to pursue a high-value women, you have to be different from the twelve other guys that approached her that week (or that day) to get her intrigued. And one of the ways to do this is to have the frame "I am a man of high value, and I can catch lots of girls. Why should I catch you?"
In the beginning, these games can generate intrigue. The separate you from her other twenty orbiters that suck up to her.
High-value women get propositioned all the time.
If you want to pursue a high-value women, you have to be different from the twelve other guys that approached her that week (or that day) to get her intrigued.
In Russia, for a woman in her mid-to-late twenties, these propositions will generally involve married men looking for mistresses
How are mistresses perceived in Russian and Ukrainian society?
At least 8 or 9 IMHO.
At least 8 or 9 IMHO.]
]
This is an unfamiliar concept to me in my real life. So the family of a 28 year-old, college educated, attractive Ukrainian women would openly support and perhaps encourage their daughter as a mistress? Especially since she was unable to find a good match for a husband.
]
This is an unfamiliar concept to me in my real life. So the family of a 28 year-old, college educated, attractive Ukrainian women would openly support and perhaps encourage their daughter as a mistress? Especially since she was unable to find a good match for a husband.
Perhaps this trip report makes it seem like Russian girls are falling out of the sky.
TwoBit,
I appreciate Jooky's personal observation; however, it was already evident because you write so candidly. Few men would admit to having kisses refused, wearing elevator shoes, etc. And the Craig's List link said it all.
We all have been in the awkward stage, and have sufferred through some forgettable moments. And yes, we should try to improve so as to not make those mistakes again. You have now retooled yourself with tailored clothing, bodybuilding, and self-taught courses in A to Z. That is fine, and I respect your superficial changes. Yet, are you missing something?
It takes a well adjusted, self-assured man to admit to refused kisses, etc. That is commendable, highly commendable. You are blessed with high intelligence. Regardless of your former awkwardness, you are successful in your profession. Why not build on these desirable and worthy qualities rather than become this "Mr. Man, slayer of women."
I fear that your screening criteria may not be the most important. Instead of worrying what a woman may be thinking about you, why not just relax, get comfortable and smell the roses. Ask yourself a couple of simple questions: Am I having a really good time with her? Is conversation easy and interesting (and not contrived BS to trip her up)?
You really do not need to know more now. If "yes," ask her out again. If "no," forget her, even if she tests positive on everything in your long list.
Somewhere there is a RW who makes your life fun.
TwoBitBandit,
Here's a way to avoid getting rejected for kisses in the future. Moments before you want to kiss her, touch her face or hair. If she looks away, flinches, or her body turns away from you, she's not interested in you romantically.
On the other hand, if you touch her face or hair and she stays still, makes eye contact, smiles and her body is facing yours, she is interested in you and is ready to be kissed.
I use that trick as well, only differing in that I use a small skin colored cloth around my hand doused with chloroform... though that approach does make navigating back to the apartment via Metro or Marshrutka a tad more difficult...
TwoBit, in reading your posts, you seem to make dating in Russia much more difficult that it was when I was single and looking. I can't see why things would have changed that much. If I am not mistaken, you are relatively young (i.e. younger than middle-aged) and are looking for women in their mid-twenties (in other words reasonable by Russian standards age difference). If they replied to you and met you, they are already intrigued. If they haven't married the local oligarch or one of his sons, it is unlikely she will. If she hasn't married a decent Russian man by then, she is already thinking that her odds are not that good. In other words, I can't quite understand the need to having such gaming strategies when any of these women is more than likely to see you as a great catch. Again, I don't understand the need to worry about when to send SMS messages and appearing to be "high-value" :noidea:
I've heard that evolutionary biology theory many times, but I've never been able to relate it to the reality I've seen around me.
In reality the guys I've know with the most game, who get the most action, just don't fit the good genes or good father mold.
[...]
What they are is either interesting and exciting or just plain confident around women. Aside from their ability to attract women they wouldn't be labeled alpha in any respect of the term.
I'm not saying 'alpha men' don't attract women. Most do. But, I’d simplify the theory to: men that excite women get laid more often.
One of the things that has helped me understand women better is books about evolutionary biology. The ideal reproduction strategy for a man is that of Genghis Khan: be super alpha have as many children with as many women as possible through any means possible. Obviously, not very men can do that. But the men that can are in great demand.
Part of the answer to this is how you define "alpha."
Women have differing views on what is attractive. I think most women want a man who projects confidence, but beyond that, everything is subjective.
You admit responding without having read the previous posts. It was obvious you had not read the OPs' replies.
You said to confront the woman about smoking, did you miss his complete reply covering from politeness to wave effect in the community?
Also you said: "I have to agree with myself. There's no substitute for being totally oneself." In case you missed this: It is also possible to change and improve "oneself." Which for the purposes intended and the outcome presumed, is exactly what TBB is attempting. Your comments reflect the attitude that "People must take me as I am..." Just remember, if you are a jerk, that is what people will "take you to be..."
In the Kingdom of the Blind the one eyed man is King (though truth be told, his vision is imperfect). The internet is a similar place where: "The pen is mighty..." and it is often the provence of cowards as there is "...[no] sword." Such statements as: "playing at being men," really do not add much. And that particular insult seems the major point of your comments. It sounds so superior, are you really?
I kinda lost track a few pages back, been busy, did our hero catch a serious fish yet or is he still trying to explain / demonstrate how to bait a hook?
I kinda lost track a few pages back, been busy, did our hero catch a serious fish yet or is he still trying to explain / demonstrate how to bait a hook?
I agree, but I'll illustrate though an example why it's hard for me to buy into the whole evolutionary theory.
I grew up with a guy who since high school has always attracted many hot women.
As a kid he attended remedial schools and didn't go to college. He's had drug problems since his teenage years and he's been in and out of jail and re-hab throughout his life. He went through a crazy religious cult phase. I'm sure he's gotten laid a million times but he hasn't fathered any children and likely never will.
As far as getting women, he's definitely the confident 'alpha' type.
But, genetically I'd have to say he's extremely deficient and because of this he's struggled through life. In a less caring country or era, this guy would be dead by now. If he fathered children, the mother would likely struggle to raise them on her own while the children would likely suffer from his same genetic deficiencies.
So... from an evolutionary perspective, what about someone like him would attract women subconsciously to him as a good genetic father?
The "cad" strategy can be effective. Cuckolding is common in many species, including humans. It's estimated that about 10%-15% of people aren't being raised by their biological father.
Your friend may have children and not even know it. And even if one of his flings knows that her husband isn't the father, she's not likely to go to her mate and say, "Honey, our son looks just like Jooky's friend from the bar that we met ten months ago!" And she wouldn't be likely to notify your friend. Your friend doesn't have any money to garnish and he could cause problems in her marriage. There's no real incentive for this theoretical woman to notify your friend that he's a father. For all we know, your friend could have been more reproductively successful than you and I.
Low intelligence tends to be correlated with low impulse control, which can be a desirable mating trait because it looks a lot like confidence. The age of first intercourse is significantly lower for men of low intelligence than for high intelligence.
In the modern age intelligence matters a lot. But, in an earlier pre-civilization age, intelligence probably mattered less. If the warriors from one cave are going to go gang up on the warriors in the next cave and take their food and women, low impulse control will probably help them be successful at that.
The age of first intercourse is significantly lower for men of low intelligence than for high intelligence.
One of the things that has helped me understand women better is books about evolutionary biology. The ideal reproduction strategy for a man is that of Genghis Khan: be super alpha have as many children with as many women as possible through any means possible. Obviously, not very men can do that. But the men that can are in great demand.
I kinda lost track a few pages back, been busy, did our hero catch a serious fish yet or is he still trying to explain / demonstrate how to bait a hook?:ROFL:
But, if you remove the constraint of needing the guy to stick around and be the provider, she’ll always go for the alpha male. This is exactly what feminism has done for women in the west: they don’t need the beta provider.
Now Russia is a wholly different culture. The beta-provider frame is a viable strategy.
Here is a video that shows where this is all headed :P
Here's a bit of free advice to anyone; the odds are pretty good that if, after 3 dates, the woman in question doesn't let your lips near hers, then it's time to move on no matter how much hair twirling and hand holding is going on. ;)
I think the rule is sex by the third date. Oh wait, that would be for AW.
Seriously, I did not meet a RW who is really interested in you who would wait longer than three dates for mind blowing sex. My sample size is neither large nor small, and I rarely was dating RW concurrently, serially yes, but not concurrently.
In reality the guys I've know with the most game, who get the most action, just don't fit the good genes or good father mold.
Men want as many different women as possible, because they are predisposed to this by nature.
... but I'd encourage you to relax.
Here is a video that shows where this is all headed :P
If i had a choice who to go on a date with - a macho man with tons of women running after him, or a more on the shy side guy, who doesn't go on dates very often, id choose the shy guy, hands down. There is also a lot bigger chance that he will appreciate you a lot more than the macho man with 10 women at his beck and call
Low intelligence tends to be correlated with low impulse control, which can be a desirable mating trait because it looks a lot like confidence. The age of first intercourse is significantly lower for men of low intelligence than for high intelligence.
In the modern age intelligence matters a lot. But, in an earlier pre-civilization age, intelligence probably mattered less. If the warriors from one cave are going to go gang up on the warriors in the next cave and take their food and women, low impulse control will probably help them be successful at that.
I'm enjoying your TR TBB... great writing... but I'd encourage you to relax. Eventually it just comes down to two (genuine) people feeling confident and comfortable enough to let love happen.
TwoBit, others are telling you the same. Its the weekend, enjoy yourself. This is the time to have lots of fun. I hope we do not see you back here posting until Monday. And then tell us about what happened.
But I don’t really want to mess with this one [Marina] in Russia.
I guide the conversation toward relationships and talk about some of my past relationships, and what I’m looking for. She plays along with the topic but materially avoids my questions.
Her leg is against mine, and she grabs my arm the whole time and keeps looking into my eyes. Yet, when we finally get to her house she still won’t let me get the kiss.
Tomorrow I already have dates at 1 and 3 with new girls. In the evening I could meet with Evgenia or Elena if I can sell them, or I can try to pull in some new girls.
Another thing I have noticed over these years is that RW don't f*ck around. Oh they love to have fun, love to laugh and get the most out of life but, they're damn serious when it comes to men. They want to hook up and quick if the chemistry is there.
They know it's a buyer's market and they're the ones selling. High quality men are in short supply here (just ask them) and you better put a strong down payment if you want to qualify for their particular real estate. They're ready for you to tell them that you will take care of them, you will be there when they need you, and that you treat them like they're the best thing on this planet, which they are. I guarantee that if you do this you'll have one hellova time together. That's the "game"
Day 7: Friday, July 2.Not sure about the frame, but reread what you wrote here. Is this acting like someone who knows what he wants? I don't think so.
I’ve completely lost the frame with Anna. I need to put her on the back burner or just stop seeing her. I need to sleep on it, but I think the right strategy is to try to fill the whole day tomorrow with other girls. Anna and I vaguely agreed to meet tomorrow but we don’t have a time. I’ll just give her a dumb excuse (as she’s done to me) and go do something else. I can still write her, but I’m not hopeful about that. I made my bet on this girl and lost. Sometimes you drop the girl, sometimes the girl drops you. So it goes.
Tomorrow I already have dates at 1 and 3 with new girls. In the evening I could meet with Evgenia or Elena if I can sell them, or I can try to pull in some new girls. There’s plenty of prospects I think.
You want a strategy with game try grabbing her and pulling her close, even if she resists and tell her that you want her and only her. Tell her that you can't stop thinking about her, tell her she makes you forget about other women; even (especially) if she resists. You are not in America, don't treat these girls the same way. Show her you know what you want and are willing to go after no if, ands or butts. Hold on and don't let go and see what happens. You might be surprised. Again, maybe you're just not ready or you're waffling and if you don't realize that's weak, she surely does.
Gosh, Chivo, you and I are saying the same and I am not a Chicano. This is a universal concept.And at the same time since I was writing this while you posted. Must be the end of the world is near ;).
TBB is allowing the physical space appropriate to Simi Valley where one false move can have consequences.
I'd also encourage TBB not to see Anna's lack of kisses as sign of indifference! She shows all good signals! I see TBB does not have much time, but women are so much slower and more shy in showing affection. Talk to her directly.
I'm sorry, and yes I'm sure you're all you and Jooky say you are, but your so called "game" here is weak, especially to a RW. F the other girls if you really like this girl.
You want a strategy with game try grabbing her and pulling her close, even if she resists and tell her that you want her and only her.
C'mon fellas...whatever happened to "if a Russian woman likes you..." talk? :P
Not sure about the frame, but reread what you wrote here. Is this acting like someone who knows what he wants? I don't think so.
If you really want to be with this girl, tell her. That's your best strategy. Take charge of the situation. I'm sorry, and yes I'm sure you're all you and Jooky say you are, but your so called "game" here is weak, especially to a RW. F the other girls if you really like this girl. Give it your best shot, because as far as I'm concerned, you're not. I can't believe that's your best shot
You want a strategy with game try grabbing her and pulling her close, even if she resists and tell her that you want her and only her. Tell her that you can't stop thinking about her, tell her she makes you forget about other women; even (especially) if she resists. You are not in America, don't treat these girls the same way. Show her you know what you want and are willing to go after no if, ands or butts. Hold on and don't let go and see what happens. You might be surprised. Again, maybe you're just not ready or you're waffling and if you don't realize that's weak, she surely does.
Otherwise continue to chase the proverbial 2 rabbits.
Different women have different behaviors. Some women will pursue a guy more aggressively (hence the "if a Russian woman likes you bla-bla-bla), while others will not be as forward. IMHO, at some point a guy has to stop and decide if one woman that he has met is worth pursuing. If yes, then, it never hurts to be honest as opposed to thesemachoAlpha male games. She hasn't insisted that he spend lavishly on her, she clearly is not desperate, and if he likes her, then he may have to take the risk of actually telling her.
Another thing I have noticed over these years is that RW don't f*ck around. Oh they love to have fun, love to laugh and get the most out of life but, they're damn serious when it comes to men. They want to hook up and quick if the chemistry is there.
I hope you did not mention any woman from your past. This is a big no-no. There is nothing good that can happen.
The problem could be that were not seeing here is TBB subconsciously acts like a cuddly pup around her and she senses this and is starting to regard him somewhere between disposable to annoying.
If you really want to be with this girl, tell her. That's your best strategy. Take charge of the situation.
They know it's a buyer's market and they're the ones selling. High quality men are in short supply here.
Get out on the public scene and just meet women.
I think that on this board most members generally define an alpha male as someone who is taking the same approach they are (or did) to find their own wife. Any definition which differs is going to encounter a lot of resistance.
Poor TBB - he went from being told "hey, thanks for the great TR!!" to " you're obviously a shallow game playing womanizer"!. And all while he is still in the middle of his trip.
As the saying goes, there are way too many cooks in this kitchen.
Here is a video that shows where this is all headed :P
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSROlfR7WTo[/youtube]
You want a strategy with game try grabbing her and pulling her close, even if she resists and tell her that you want her and only her. Tell her that you can't stop thinking about her, tell her she makes you forget about other women; even (especially) if she resists.
She’s hot. She hugs me and takes my arm, and we go to a nearby restaurant and order some salads and sashlik.
I think you guys are really making too much about the kisses. Could be wrong, but I think she's just being a little distant with the kisses because she understands he's seeing other women, imagines him kissing them too and flat doesn't like it.
I hope you did not mention any woman from your past. This is a big no-no. There is nothing good that can happen.
This is bewildering. Warm positive signs, then frigid paka. Were you weak about getting a kiss, being a proper gentleman? Maybe she wants a stronger attempt. RW who like confident men want the man to take the lead. "The strong man knows what to do."
Before deciding that she is history, explain to her the contradiction and ask directly what's the story. I would have asked her that before saying 'paka.' Now you have to do it by phone. Or better yet, don't talk about it! Simply meet her one more time and make your best move just after she says "Privet," maybe prefacing your move with Chivo's guidance. Then talk about it if necessary to talk. Who knows whats in her pretty head. [Make sure your apartment is clean and ready for guests].
I have seen a young RM following a pretty RW and almost begging. I asked my then future wife (and later ex-wife) about it, and she says that is what a RM must do to win typical beautiful women, especially if he has made a mistake. So plead dumb and ask her. Don't beg, however. Asking her in a strong WTF voice is not begging.
If you really want to be with this girl, tell her. That's your best strategy. Take charge of the situation. I'm sorry, and yes I'm sure you're all you and Jooky say you are, but your so called "game" here is weak, especially to a RW. F the other girls if you really like this girl. Give it your best shot, because as far as I'm concerned, you're not. I can't believe that's your best shot
You want a strategy with game try grabbing her and pulling her close, even if she resists and tell her that you want her and only her. Tell her that you can't stop thinking about her, tell her she makes you forget about other women; even (especially) if she resists. You are not in America, don't treat these girls the same way. Show her you know what you want and are willing to go after no if, ands or butts. Hold on and don't let go and see what happens. You might be surprised. Again, maybe you're just not ready or you're waffling and if you don't realize that's weak, she surely does.
Everybody talks about difference a la AW vs RW/UW. Right on about decision making and doing it quick. There is a real (though general) difference in type. Not only can they, they are often willing. So fast, so strong it can surprise. And Chivo, you live there so you have adapted to the physical sense. TBB is allowing the physical space appropriate to Simi Valley where one false move can have consequences. Misha and Chivo are telling true (and this ain't in many books), it is the "Be the Man" thing, Russian style. Go push some buttons, light 'em up and get back to us. Clarity lies just around a corner...
On my recent trip to Kharkiv, I kissed 11 of the 12 women I dated on first or second date. I didn't want to kiss the 12th. TBB if you really want to kiss a gal, then don't wait until the two of you are about to part. At that point, the gal is thinking about it as she knows it is the traditional time, and maybe thinking she doesn't want it or wants to play hard to get.
So just give the kiss (doesn't have to be a big long one) at some odd point. Quite often, right after finishing a meal, I get up from my chair, move over toward her chair and just lean in and give a quick kiss. Once the first kiss is accomplished, then the tension is off and more can follow . . . or not.
I'd also encourage TBB not to see Anna's lack of kisses as sign of indifference! She shows all good signals! I see TBB does not have much time, but women are so much slower and more shy in showing affection. Talk to her directly.
I agree. TBB, keep in mind that Russian women have heard the numerous stories about the sex tourists. She may be wary. The fact that she is still talking to you means that she is interested IMHO. Do as Chivo says. Tell her that you have X days left in Novosibirsk and that you want to spend every moment between now and then with her. She has to work, yes, but tell her that you want to have breakfast with her before work, lunch with her and then spend your evenings with her.... At this point, you should understand whether you like her or not and she should know whether she has any chemistry for you. If you do like her and think that she might be the One, then do as Chivo says and tell her straight out. If it doesn't work out you can meet new women until you leave Russia. You can always perfect your "game" in Silicon Valley ;)
C'mon fellas...whatever happened to "if a Russian woman likes you..." talk? :P They've been out 4 dates and TBB did in fact tried to kiss her.
Dunno maybe I'm missing something here...waaaaay toooo many women to split pea with one, IMO. The problem could be that were not seeing here is TBB subconsciously acts like a cuddly pup around her and she senses this and is starting to regard him somewhere between disposable to annoying. She needs a couple more dates to determine exactly which. All the Alpha-talk is maybe starting to slip through the cracks.
Different women have different behaviors. Some women will pursue a guy more aggressively (hence the "if a Russian woman likes you bla-bla-bla), while others will not be as forward. IMHO, at some point a guy has to stop and decide if one woman that he has met is worth pursuing. If yes, then, it never hurts to be honest as opposed to thesemachoAlpha male games. She hasn't insisted that he spend lavishly on her, she clearly is not desperate, and if he likes her, then he may have to take the risk of actually telling her.
Anna is clearly waiting for some meaningful words and not getting them. TwoBit, you are a bit too busy playing your frame-game; showing off and trying to impress her and essentially force her to make the next step. Instead, you should open your mind and listen, understand, formulate what is it that you really like about her (except that she's hot) - and then TELL HER as much. Otherwise, she'll realize soon enough that you are just a shallow womanizer and not really into her that much, except for the physical attraction. You won't get very far with attempts to kiss her.
Anna is hot enough to have that “I’m a hot girl and I know it” frame. With these types of girls, the worst thing you can do is comment on their beauty. Yesterday when Anna and I were walking in the city, she pointed out that I hadn’t commented on her beauty. I told her that beauty is common and transient, and that you have to see past to identify someone that you’d be a good match for.
I think of part of what’s in play here is that Anna is in the “hot” category and she knows it. Since they receive so much attention, they play by different rules. What works with a six can be very different from what works with a nine.
...
I think of part of what’s in play here is that Anna is in the “hot” category and she knows it. Since they receive so much attention, they play by different rules. What works with a six can be very different from what works with a nine.
...
Anna is hot enough to have that “I’m a hot girl and I know it” frame. With these types of girls, the worst thing you can do is comment on their beauty. Yesterday when Anna and I were walking in the city, she pointed out that I hadn’t commented on her beauty. I told her that beauty is common and transient, and that you have to see past to identify someone that you’d be a good match for.
Well this method has never failed for me anywhere in the world with any woman 6-10+.
Sit down and write a poem.. not some overly romantic crap, but something short, sweet -- something about her eyes, her lips, and your time together.. really impress her and write it in Russian.
On your next date with her, meet her with two dozen roses, 23 for her and the other for your pocket. Giver her the roses first and them blow her away with the poem (don't read it to her, just hand it over as the surprise/feelings of the roses builds to maximum). She'll either be beaming with delight to carry them around while you walk together, or she'll be standoffish because it's overt and people are watching. If it's the former, then when you get to a secluded area, move your mouth to within an inch the edge of hers, and hold the position, and if she turns her head in to you this time, cool, if she turns her head away, follow her mouth with yours, brushing the edge with your lips... keeping the brushing touch and don't back off unless she creates a truly nasty scene... then take her.
If she doesn't respond favorably to that, your frame with this one is in serious trouble. IMO only of course, and I freely admit to having little to no game with the ladies. :P
TBB, you should ask yourself the question which this song is asking...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq2KgzKETBw
Yesterday when Anna and I were walking in the city, she pointed out that I hadn’t commented on her beauty. I told her that beauty is common and transient, and that you have to see past to identify someone that you’d be a good match for.
When I took her to the airport to see her off, she wouldn’t let go of me. She just couldn’t stop crying. I almost had to push her through the security gates. The TSA people were like “mam, are you ok?" as they helped her through security. And as I saw her off, I just realized what a human train wreck the situation was, and I wished it could have worked out just a little bit differently.
Anna is hot enough to have that “I’m a hot girl and I know it” frame. With these types of girls, the worst thing you can do is comment on their beauty. Yesterday when Anna and I were walking in the city, she pointed out that I hadn’t commented on her beauty. I told her that beauty is common and transient, and that you have to see past to identify someone that you’d be a good match for.
TBB,
I echo's Gator's thoughts that this is one of the most honest, open, helpful, and better TR's I've read in quite a long time.
I think if you take the comments into perspective, you'll see that most are indeed attempting to help you by offering some alternative ideas, giving you food for thought, sharing what has worked for them in similar situations, etc...
Just avoid allowing yourself to become embroiled in debates over inconsequential details or criticism and focus on the top priority of making the most of your trip, your way. Take whatever could help and discard everything else for the moment.
So you already cast her in a mold and are acting in accordance with your preconceived notions. Defensive behavior as is. She is a unique person and doesn't give a damn what "type" she is in your mind. She wants to be liked and adored and you are denying her that pleasure based on totally artificial and defensive considerations. Comes across as rather weak and insecure if you ask me.
P.S. By acting defensive with those who criticize you in this thread you are just proving my point.
Some more Monday morning Quarterbacking:
What you said is excellent, yet you forgot something very important. Before saying that, tell her:
"You are remarkably beautiful.
This moment as I stand in front of you, looking into your eyes and seeing your hair, face, lips, I feel truly that you are the most beautiful woman in the world.
To wake up each morning and see you would be heaven on earth. To sit down and enjoy dinner with you would be heaven on earth. To decorate a Christmas tree with you would be heaven on earth. To watch you hold our baby…….
You are so beautiful that it distracts me from what I need to do. I am looking for someone with those inner qualities important for a happy life together. So I try to ignore your beauty as I move past it to your inner beauty. It is impossible, yet I try by not mentioning how incredibly beautiful you really are."
Yeah, there are some potshots in the thread. There's also considerable thread drift onto tangents. I think you were aware that there would be some of that when you began posting. I echo's Gator's thoughts that this is one of the most honest, open, helpful, and better TR's I've read in quite a long time.
I think if you take the comments into perspective, you'll see that most are indeed attempting to help you by offering some alternative ideas, giving you food for thought, sharing what has worked for them in similar situations, etc...
TBB,
like someone else in the thread said, you need to pick one girl and go for it. Anna is your girl. she wore a mini skirt and a see through blouse, she grabs your arm, she looks at you fondly--so what if she does not let you kiss her at the end of the date. these women have radar--they can see right through you, and they feel you are insincere. your attempt to control the frame and the game is very evident to them. they know you are dating multiple women. why should Anna give in to you, if you have not given in to her?? you need to throw your game book out the window and do the opposite. open your heart to her, show her that you are sincere and vulnerable. if she rejects you again, don't take it as a rejection. what she is really saying, is that you have not adequately sold yourself to her, you have not overcome her objections (the 4th step to the sale). have you qualified her properly?? (the 2nd step). do you really know what her needs and wants are? go back and ask her. it's all about her at this point, not you. listen intently, and NEVER discuss past relationships. she wants to know that you are sincerely, totally, completely into her. maybe she is a virgin, how do you know?? at the very least, although she has clearly shown she likes you, she does not feel that you are sincerely reciprocating. spend all remaining time with her. buy her the most beautiful bouquet of red roses you can find. buy her something small but special to her (you should know what is special to her if you have properly qualified her). ask her what is her favorite restaurant and take her there. ask her about her parents and friends and let her know that you want to meet them. and lower your impulse control and let nature take its course!! invite her into your apartment to show her some pictures of your family. tell her you really admire a women who can cook and ask her if she would cook you some Borsht. and Good Luck!! don't let your trip be a bust!!
What you said is excellent, yet you forgot something very important.
My intent in writing a trip report is to help the community.
As far as the issue of commenting on a lady's appearance, for me it's important to comment every lady on a date a minimum of one time but not too much to overdo it. The ladies spend a lot of time preparing, putting on cosmetics, choosing their clothes and making sure it all looks good.... for you, her date. She needs to know that you recognize that.
Well, the answer is yes, I’ve really loved a woman. And Brad, you’re an аsshole. And I mean that.
so TBB, you are making bank in Silicone valley, you are driving a Porshe and you gloat over the demise of your former GF. now who is the real asswhole??
So you already cast her in a mold and are acting in accordance with your preconceived notions. Defensive behavior as is. She is a unique person and doesn't give a damn what "type" she is in your mind. She wants to be liked and adored and you are denying her that pleasure based on totally artificial and defensive considerations. Comes across as rather weak and insecure if you ask me.
P.S. By acting defensive with those who criticize you in this thread you are just proving my point.
So you already cast her in a mold and are acting in accordance with your preconceived notions. Defensive behavior as is. She is a unique person and doesn't give a damn what "type" she is in your mind. She wants to be liked and adored and you are denying her that pleasure based on totally artificial and defensive considerations. Comes across as rather weak and insecure if you ask me.
P.S. By acting defensive with those who criticize you in this thread you are just proving my point.
Tit and Tat. Though the former is much more alluring, why not drop it at this point and get back to the objective of producing something productive?
buy her a greatest hits CD wrap it in some special paper and give it to her with a nice flower bouquet. up your game and your frame with some sincerity!!
I believe the timing is right for a small gift gesture on his part--I hope he buys me a Bryan Adam's CD--wrapped in special paper and flowers would be nice too. Of course, I will accept nice jewelry as well. I need to make sure he associates gift giving as a way to get a good response from me. I think I will allow for a longer hug this time and send a more confusing signal on a kiss--I wonder if he will try harder this time?
Anna's Journal Entry--I remain in control of the frame--although I may be frustrating TBB a bit much. I will ease control tomorrow and respond in a more timely fashion to his communications. He does seem like a nice man and he is clearly very successful in USA. I hope he can find a way to move to Novosibirsk.
I believe the timing is right for a small gift gesture on his part--I hope he buys me a Bryan Adam's CD--wrapped in special paper and flowers would be nice too. Of course, I will accept nice jewelry as well. I need to make sure he associates gift giving as a way to get a good response from me. I think I will allow for a longer hug this time and send a more confusing signal on a kiss--I wonder if he will try harder this time?
I wonder when he is returning to USA?
LoL.. while that IS funny... and related to how some women probably think... I can't see how in the world giving flowers (or even some small gifts) can be considered as anything other than part of the natural dating process. Creating neuro-associative responses is fodder for an entire forum... LoL
several years ago...
our OP is visiting a 99 cent store, and asks if they have any books on how to be successful in relationships with women. bingo!! not only do they have them, but they are 74% off!!
OMG!! that's only two bits!! hence our wise hero is born!!
was I not provoked with an uncalled for insult, after offering nothing but harmless constructive criticism?? of course he can pursue anyway and anyhow he wants to, and clearly he is determined to do just that. unfortunately his trip is almost over....I and all the others would like to see him succeed in starting a romance, regardless of his inept attempts to control every little frame by frame of his experience in Novosibirsk. :wallbash:
My advice should be taken with a grain of sand but I'm rooting for Cha-Cha girl. Give her a twirl!
I think of part of what’s in play here is that Anna is in the “hot” category and she knows it. Since they receive so much attention, they play by different rules. What works with a six can be very different from what works with a nine.
The funny thing about this process is that it really forces you to take a self-inventory and decide what is important. It's easy to spend all your time chasing the hot girls and just burn cycles pointlessly.
My intent in writing a trip report is to help the community.I "get" and applaud that but the real question is, what is the "intent of the trip"?
When we date a marriage agency RW, most are committed to moving to the West with the right man. Also, they have been schooled as to the MOB dating routine, e. g. compressed time schedules for making decisions. Someone like Anna has not had these prerequisites.
I "get" and applaud that but the real question is, what is the "intent of the trip"?
Many (most) of the women in FSU who are on dating sites are also registered with some marriage agency. So not a sure bet to conclude that Anna has not had experience there also.
When we date a marriage agency RW, most are committed to moving to the West with the right man. Also, they have been schooled as to the MOB dating routine, e. g. compressed time schedules for making decisions. Someone like Anna has not had these prerequisites.
This TR follows the same MO as the av8tor TR from the past.The only difference is TBB is not being as arrogant as av8tor was. which makes this trip report better to read and take from. In fact, early in the thread the av8tor TR was used as an answer for one of the questions I asked to TBB early in the thread. Very strange.
If you follow you will notice any questions or advice on "game" will be discussed and answered in a civilized way. Any questions, comments or advice on choosing a girl or getting more serious with a girl or looking in the mirror will be met with harsh responses or the questions will be ignored. The combativeness in posting comes out only when posters start to question why TBB is not making a choice. Again very strange.
I dint even see TBB as a sex tourist. He not even getting close to kissing his dates on the cheek.Again everything is so strange its hard to process. Hell every hot blooded male would being trying to take one of their dates back to the flat for a night of passion. Again weird.
Whats up with all the zoo dates?
I will play along with your game theories and give my suggestion on Anna.
The problem with Anna is you did not escalate the interactions after the first date.The second date should have included some physical contact, touching maybe a little caressing. Whats that word..... Kino... you know what I mean. She thinks you lack testosterone in your blood. You didnt escalate or move forward, major mistake in controlling the frame.
Viewer warning!!!!...Im going to be blunt.........TBB The best way to control the frame after a few dates is be to a point where you will be spending a night together. Then you give her the best sex she has ever experienced. I mean mind blowing sex. Not just for you I mean her. The type where her eyes roll up into the back of her head and her toes look like pretzels. Then do it again.
She will never forget you. You will be in her mind 24/7. You now have complete control of the frame.
Your approach is so interesting and you write it so well that some of us may be taking this to a vicarious level. Thus, we may forget that we are not in your shoes. Certainly, we can not question battlefield decisions. Our Monday morning quarterbacking is just that. So please do not let our comments deflate your attitude. Everyone is pulling for you. You are the Captain of your Soul!
With that caveat, here goes (can't help myself). You dismissed Anna in no uncertain terms. Did you burn your bridges or do you plan to call her later?
My question is where was Anna Sunday morning. A very long church service? A dacha outside telephone service? Misha asked, "Why doesn't she have a boyfriend?" Well maybe she dates a RM and could not return your call when with him. Maybe she is not thrilled about this RM, and that is why she spends time with you. Maybe .....Who knows? It is possible that she was not playing a game by refusing to accept your call.
I would give her a call and have a "Come to Jesus" talk.
When we date a marriage agency RW, most are committed to moving to the West with the right man. Also, they have been schooled as to the MOB dating routine, e. g. compressed time schedules for making decisions. Someone like Anna has not had these prerequisites.
Many (most) of the women in FSU who are on dating sites are also registered with some marriage agency. So not a sure bet to conclude that Anna has not had experience there also.
it is part of the natural dating process, for sure if you are sincere about a lady and you want to show it to her. and I doubt if she would want some jewelry so soon, she doesn't come across that way.
Her perspective is something like, “I’m in no rush to start a relationship, and if you want a relationship with me you will have to do it on my schedule.”
I can’t possibly accept that position, because my time in Novosibirsk is limited. My taking Anna out to sushi and the symphony while she rejects my advances isn’t going to change that. In fact, it just makes me look like a tool that is willing to jump through her hoops.
A pretty big leap of logic here from "she's not ready to jump into a relationship with me" to "she wants me to jump through her hoops." Wounded self-esteem?
What do you think will be necessary to change her position and yet not give her the so-dreaded upper hand? How are you planning to "sell her on the idea" without actually infringing on her comfort zone?
However, I have to disagree with the comment “Many (most) of the women in FSU who are on dating sites are also registered with some marriage agency.” On mamba.ru, there are about five thousand girls from 25-30. Do you think all five thousand of them are on bluesapphires, Elena’s Models and Cuteonly?
How about her other comfort zone, namely her slow schedule for cementing a relationship? That one is difficult for an AM to overcome.
I am not ready to buy that her internal clock is so slow; however, all RW differ, as do the men who pursue them. Perhaps Anna is that wise to understand that a long distance relationship is more complex than "boy meets girl.
That's the risk Anna takes, and she is willing to take it. What does that mean if you had to guess, Blues Fairy?Just that; she knows her value and is not willing to jump into something she's not quite sure she likes, or is ready for. More time/soul investment necessary. Unfortunately TBB sees this requirement as a direct assault on his "frame", manhood, self-esteem or whatever. I wonder if his previous miss of a high-value woman occurred in similar circumstances.
I'm leaning towards the possibility of yanking everyones chain on the forum. The reaction factor.I was referring to the "trip", not the report.
Never, never, never tell that story to a RW. It makes you sound like an absolutely heartless bastard.Really? I dont know what it sounds like to other women, but to me it sounded like it was her mistake that she regretted, what is he supposed to do, shes married with kids, why does getting on with his own life make him a bastard? She had her chance and blew it, long time ago.
I also tend to agree with what BF said, quoted by Boethius below.People tend to like people who make them feel good about themselves. Unless there are such excessive amounts of people who compliment them :P
You guys give great advice on how to make Anna feel better about herself. Complimenting her, giving her presents, enhance romantic feelings, etc. However, I believe that there should be some advice on how to get her like TBB more, not herself!
Well this method has never failed for me anywhere in the world with any woman 6-10+.A poem is nice, but if you dont have the talent and your poem isnt so good... It's pretty unpleasant having to fake joy from a crappy poem :P
Sit down and write a poem.. not some overly romantic crap, but something short, sweet -- something about her eyes, her lips, and your time together.. really impress her and write it in Russian.
On your next date with her, meet her with two dozen roses, 23 for her and the other for your pocket. Giver her the roses first and them blow her away with the poem (don't read it to her, just hand it over as the surprise/feelings of the roses builds to maximum). She'll either be beaming with delight to carry them around while you walk together, or she'll be standoffish because it's overt and people are watching. If it's the former, then when you get to a secluded area, move your mouth to within an inch the edge of hers, and hold the position, and if she turns her head in to you this time, cool, if she turns her head away, follow her mouth with yours, brushing the edge with your lips... keeping the brushing touch and don't back off unless she creates a truly nasty scene... then take her.
If she doesn't respond favorably to that, your frame with this one is in serious trouble. IMO only of course, and I freely admit to having little to no game with the ladies. :P
On my recent trip to Kharkiv, I kissed 11 of the 12 women I dated on first or second date. I didn't want to kiss the 12th. TBB if you really want to kiss a gal, then don't wait until the two of you are about to part. At that point, the gal is thinking about it as she knows it is the traditional time, and maybe thinking she doesn't want it or wants to play hard to get.Are you talking of kissing on the lips or cheeks? If you are actually advising to plant one on her lips when she doesnt expect it, that is a very ill advise, in my opinion. Nothing worse than someone planting one on you when you dont expect, it. A huge turn off in my eyes. Unless im TREMENDOUSLY attracted to the guy, but that happens only with very very very very few guys. With usual guys it takes time to get attracted, and if he goes and kisses me out of the blue in the very beginning, when i dont expect it at all, that will definitely spoil the picture a lot.
So just give the kiss (doesn't have to be a big long one) at some odd point. Quite often, right after finishing a meal, I get up from my chair, move over toward her chair and just lean in and give a quick kiss. Once the first kiss is accomplished, then the tension is off and more can follow . . . or not.
Or, on second date (probably not on first), just as you meet, give a quick kiss. It may startle her. If so, just laugh and say something like: No need to worry now about when first kiss will occur. This technique and reasoning was in a Woody Allen movie.
Let us play a "What If." What if you were not married, were an upper 20s still living in Russia, not listed with a marriage agency, and you went out on a first date with TwoBit? What would have to happen for you to become really interested in TwoBit and want a second and third date?What would have to happen is him demonstrate that he is a good guy, without commitment issues, not a control-freak, good possible father and with good genes (healthy, well built, nice face, nice teeth) no foul breath, and that he has nice manners, and most importantly, that he is fiercely faithful, cuz im not about to tolerate cheaters. I think that is the trait he may be not showing in the eyes of the ladies: going out with so many women, trying to kiss each and every one of them (maybe he just has bad breath or bad teeth or lips in very poor condition?), cutting every date short. Frankly ive never been on a date that was going well and was THAT short (2-3 hours), if its good, it lasts many hours, the fact that he cuts a good date short alone shows he has some other women. That does not go well with my definition of a guy that has a potential to be faithful.
Other RW please jump in.
Frankly ive never been on a date that was going well and was THAT short (2-3 hours), if its good, it lasts many hours, the fact that he cuts a good date short alone shows he has some other women. That does not go well with my definition of a guy that has a potential to be faithful.
But when i was looking for a serious relationship, i wouldnt go out with a guy if i thought he was dating other women same time as me.
Really? I dont know what it sounds like to other women, but to me it sounded like it was her mistake that she regretted, what is he supposed to do, shes married with kids, why does getting on with his own life make him a bastard? She had her chance and blew it, long time ago.
Frankly ive never been on a date that was going well and was THAT short (2-3 hours), if its good, it lasts many hours, the fact that he cuts a good date short alone shows he has some other women. That does not go well with my definition of a guy that has a potential to be faithful.
A poem is nice, but if you dont have the talent and your poem isnt so good... It's pretty unpleasant having to fake joy from a crappy poem :P
Really? I dont know what it sounds like to other women, but to me it sounded like it was her mistake that she regretted, what is he supposed to do, shes married with kids, why does getting on with his own life make him a bastard? She had her chance and blew it, long time ago.
(maybe he just has bad breath or bad teeth or lips in very poor condition?),
cutting every date short. Frankly I've never been on a date that was going well and was THAT short (2-3 hours), if its good, it lasts many hours, the fact that he cuts a good date short alone shows he has some other women. That does not go well with my definition of a guy that has a potential to be faithful.
It may or may not be true that Anna has experience in marriage agency. However, I have to disagree with the comment “Many (most) of the women in FSU who are on dating sites are also registered with some marriage agency.” On mamba.ru, there are about five thousand girls from 25-30 just in Novosibirsk. Do you think all five thousand of them are on bluesapphires, Elena’s Models and Cuteonly?
And Aloe, this man is definitely on a VM trip. So your comments, in this instance, are just a disguised attack on the VM trip.
Better manners would be to accept his VM trip and make your remarks within that framework.
I dated this foreign guy, we would joke about his other women every now and then. But he did say once that none of the othere are as hot or intelligent as me :P I think him saying that just once was an important factor in my being fine with it :)
I think that is the problem, the OP is not willing to commit to dating just one of the many ladies, . . .
The man is on a VM trip. As such you do not commit to dating just one woman. Let's accept his method and direct comments within that framework. If you want to attack the VM appoach, start another thread; or just reread the existing hundreds of threads on that.
. . . why spend $4,000.00 and travel 8,000 or so miles, just to go on multiple casual cafe and zoo dates, without ever narrowing it down to one or two . . .
It will be narrowed down to 1 or 2 or some number. But on a VM trip that occurs later.
. . . there is just no sincerity in all of this game/frame controlling attempts. I think the women involved can see through it.
Just more attacks on the VM appoach.
A poem is nice, but if you dont have the talent and your poem isnt so good... It's pretty unpleasant having to fake joy from a crappy poem :P
Day 9: Sunday, July 4
I’ve met a number of women like this in Russia. They’re kind of cute in girl-next-door sort of way, but I can see why they don’t get much traction in the FSU. Life has been hard enough that some of their spunk and zest for life is gone.
Day 9: Sunday, July 4 At another booth, she buys a magnetized picture of the Theater of Opera and Ballet and then hands it to me as a gift.
Ouch. I would have a hard time accepting a gift from a gal that I already knew I had no intention of meeting again!!
There’s only one problem here. I’m not really attracted to her. So, I’m not going to call her.
This is the strong suit of the VM trip. Many guys on the VO trip would have tried to make it work with this gal because they had no other option. Many guys here even ended up marrying the gal rather than losing their investment of time and money.
Quote from: TwoBitBanditWhen I took her to the airport to see her off, she wouldn’t let go of me. She just couldn’t stop crying. I almost had to push her through the security gates. The TSA people were like “mam, are you ok?" as they helped her through security. And as I saw her off, I just realized what a human train wreck the situation was, and I wished it could have worked out just a little bit differently.
Never, never, never tell that story to a RW. It makes you sound like an absolutely heartless bastard.
Really? I dont know what it sounds like to other women, but to me it sounded like it was her mistake that she regretted, what is he supposed to do, shes married with kids, why does getting on with his own life make him a bastard? She had her chance and blew it, long time ago.
On the other hand, TBB does not forgive the woman who meant the world to him, then hurt him, and later came back dramatically on her knees begging forgiveness and acceptance
This is the strong suit of the VM trip. Many guys on the VO trip would have tried to make it work with this gal. Many guys here even married such a gal.
Why? She is explaining why she would not have gone out with a guy on a VM. Not all women will and why is it bad manners for Aloe to share her perspective?!?
We should focus on helping the man within that approach.
...
Now, we are in a thread where an approach has already been chosen. We should focus on helping the man within that approach.
Now I’m more focused on trying to enjoy my life, and today was an enjoyable day.
First, the discussants can argue about the validity of various approaches 'before' an approach is chosen.
Agreed, yet I don not see Aloe's comments as advocating the VO concept, or deriding the VM approach...
I think some of you guys are placing too much emphasis on the ‘VM’ part of TBB’s TR. If he had experienced a strong mutual attraction with a lady on day 1 or 2 then I doubt if he would be going through his B list one week later.
I once went on a tour, which must be the epitome of a ‘VM’ trip. Yet, I had one 'first date' on that tour lasted 4 days (non stop) because I experienced a mutual connection that (so far) TBB has yet to enjoy. Needless to say, the aforementioned meeting was the last I had on that trip.
I think Anna was/is the best so far in his mind, but she just didn't knock him for a loop.
Absolutely agree with Vinny here... and I also alluded to this earlier in the thread...
I think Anna was/is the best so far in his mind, but she just didn't knock him for a loop. They had pretty good chemistry, yeah, but either he's not telling the whole story or she just didn't make him feel the "paint her name on the water tower" syndrome.
I'm sure she is smart enough to realize he is seeing other women in Novo. I don't think that would motivate her to give-it-up to him.
Frankly ive never been on a date that was going well and was THAT short (2-3 hours), if its good, it lasts many hours, the fact that he cuts a good date short alone shows he has some other women.
That does not go well with my definition of a guy that has a potential to be faithful.
I think high value Russian women are more accustomed and willing to be chased than to chase.
None of these women were looking to be a number two, so that was that.
I/O aren't you pretty offended about this?Devastated. :rolleyes2:
She did. When she called him after their first date proposing a second date and he turned her down, she knew immediately that he was seeing other women. She then, IMHO, put him in the: "I will wait for him to come back and beg for me to take him seriously as I am clearly the hottest woman he will meet on his trip" category of men :evil:
Many (most) of the women in FSU who are on dating sites are also registered with some marriage agency. So not a sure bet to conclude that Anna has not had experience there also.
Yes, and the thing is that Anna took a major hit to her pride when she called him for a date and he turned her down.
Pretty much. My wife would NEVER have put up with being number 2 at any point in our relationship.
I "get" and applaud that but the real question is, what is the "intent of the trip"?
this is a scouting missionFor what?
the shallow end of the pool where the agencies are?? depends on the agency as well as the woman. there are plenty of good women in bad agencies, and vice versa. a good fisher can extract the good fish out of the bad agency.
One of the things about life is as you get better at something you get the opportunity to participate in a higher league. This applies to anything: universities, careers, sports, etc. And it definitely applies to girls. As you climb each level, the playing field gets more complicated and the competition more fierce. What worked at level one will be counterproductive at level three. I can sense that I’m making some mistakes where I am, but I’m often not sure what the right action is.
Day 11: Tuesday, July 6
... This is what a good date should be like.
However, he has a really cool date and...... virtual SILENCE!
Perhaps, some of us have ascertained that TBB is capable of having cool first dates. I am waiting to see how he will transition from first to second date ;D However, it may have to wait until the next trip :-X
However, he has a really cool date and...... virtual SILENCE!
Hey TwoBit! [...] 20 bucks that you get dragged to a Planeta Sushi at least once.
The only question I have at the end of Day 10 is how you feel about the list which was built before arriving.
Looking back at all the "nothing there" and "so it goes" sort of comments, can you think of anything you wish you had or had not done in assembling the dance card of gals you THOUGHT you would be attracted to when meeting? What lessons or thoughts are twirling in your head amidst your fatigue?
TBB, just post something about that train wreck date.. we need the action! 8)
If you try to juggle her for a week you're going to get anearfularse chewin'
Sure, sure I know they can't put their life on total hold on the off chance that something will work out; but it still seems a little weird to me.
I was told that Galina is a pure Ukrainian name. So ask her if her ancestors were Kulaks (well to do farmers) who were shipped to Siberia by Stalin in the 1930s.
Galina is a Russian name;
I would discourage anyone to use the term 'Kulaks'
Same thing with the exile issue.
Galina is a Russian nameThat sounds VERY odd to Italian ears, since for us a gallina is:
Wouldn't you however agree that the term "Kulak' is generally negative towards Russian farmers?
And I hate talking on the phone in Russian: I don't quite have the advanced language skills to pull it off with the confidence and comprehension needed to make it really useful.
I didn't find the need for truly advanced skills to make it useful for myself - I'd ask a few key questions, then shut my mouth. And I was off to the races learning quite a bit about my lady, fully understanding about 90%. My training was to comprehend more than to speak,so I put that strength to work.
Nice TR, TwoBit - I'm enjoying this one.
I imagine by the time Galina returns from Turkey, you'll be stateside, da ?
TBB, most of the dating sites have search/screens where you can put in height and weight. That would keep you from ending up with gals who are shorter than you wish. The weight one is sort of hit and miss as most gals will lie about their weight; not too often about their height.
I would discourage anyone to use the term 'Kulaks', because this is a negative word that Bolsheviks invented for the well to do farmers. Russians may use the word among themselves, but this is not the word that polite foreigners would be advised to use.
I got what I deserved in this particular case.Providing you accept and understand that, you're none the poorer. It appears to me you do, in part understand that but I'm not convinced from your report if or not you have really gotten a handle on Siberians. :noidea:
I almost sensed it coming from the tone of her SMS messages and our conversation on the phone. I remember thinking, "she not that happy with me, I'm going to have to really be charming to have this work out well."Perhaps a case of the guilty already running where none were pursuing.
I had the right idea about what was going to come at me but I had no idea of the magnitude.Your dating experience with this race maybe reasonably broad but your "close" time is lacking. What actually happened? You spun her out for who knows how long then sensed she was all over your case like a bad rash. You proceeded and thought (Most Russians would consider this extremely arrogant and I admit to falling into similar traps early myself) you could charm your way though. She blew you off in a heartbeat and you didn't have any more shots in the breach? Me thinks I'm not spot on but close. The bit you really missed, the key bit, is she turned up...!! She was still up for the game but under fire, you didn't make the grade by her measure. If you do actually "get" this race, you'll understand, perhaps later, it was what happened after you met rather than before that hung you out to dry.
No worries, all you can do is learn from your mistakes and do better next time.Be sure to understand what the mistake actually was / is. I'm not a VM fan but I proved it doable and as such I think you've missed the point to an extent. The mistake may not be the time the juggler keeps the plates in the air but how well he catches them on the return fall.
Here's how a foreigner catches a woman's attention in a Russian night club:
You walk into a nightclub.
PUA, DLV, DHI, IOI, ....
Help, I need a translator :'( :D
I've been in FSU nightclubs before but the club here was the most lopsided ratio I've ever seen in my life in a nightclub.
I believe it! What club did you go to?
There's one club I went to, just once, that was more like the typical US / European scene. Lots of dudes going out of their way to impress. I heard a lot of Spanish, French and German conversations so maybe it's where ex-pats go when they miss how hard it is to pick up women back home. I didn't get it. I'll stick to the 80 to 5 ratio. :)
PUA = Pick-up artist
DLV = Display Lower Value
DHV = Display Higher Value
IOI = Indicator of interest
LSE = Low self-esteem
http://www.fastseduction.com/acronyms.shtml
Right near Pl. Lenina? I think I know the place.
One thing I noticed is that the guys tend to show up really late. They get smashed somewhere cheaper where they don't need to buy girls drinks, then hit the clubs at 3 or 4 in the morning when they're more likely to find the wasted easy chick stragglers and all night partiers. :P
Right near Pl. Lenina? I think I know the place.
One thing I noticed is that the guys tend to show up really late. They get smashed somewhere cheaper where they don't need to buy girls drinks, then hit the clubs at 3 or 4 in the morning when they're more likely to find the wasted easy chick stragglers and all night partiers. :P
I've got a thread running for 2 months now with much less pages and posts and people wonder where I get the time to post since I'm dating local ladies but damn TwoBit, you are on a trip and still have time to write so much.
Thanks for writing this but I suggest postponing this trip report until you come back. So what if you can't remember everything. You owe us nothing and owe yourself to get the most out of this trip. Thinking and writing a lot can make you lose focus and make you tired. Not good when you're on dates. Also you can use free time to get phone numbers from the ladies on the street or restaurant. It's easy even if the ladies on the street never intended to meet a foreign guy through the internet. The ideal lady for you may not be on your A or B list and you are the one to blame if she passes you by on the street because you are too focused thinking how to write your next post.
Thanks for writing this but I suggest postponing this trip report until you come back. So what if you can't remember everything. You owe us nothing and owe yourself to get the most out of this trip. Thinking and writing a lot can make you lose focus and make you tired.
Right near Pl. Lenina? I think I know the place
Like I said before, I’m starting to see the big downside of this approach: in these girls’ minds these are just normal dates like they would have with any local guy, and they’re free to cancel or do whatever.
Like I said before, I’m starting to see the big downside of this approach: in these girls’ minds these are just normal dates like they would have with any local guy, and they’re free to cancel or do whatever. That’s the price to be paid, I suppose. I’m the one that wants to date them, so I pay the price.
TBB, it may just be the dating approach that makes them "distant" but surely they realise you're there for a limited time... I would have thought they would make a greater effort to spend time with you.
I find this interesting. I guess my question is why?? Maybe an explanation would help me understand why they should put extra effort in meeting him.
TBB has no value to the ladies and its something which is hard to comprehend for some.
If this girl was in Silicon Valley I’d be all over her. And, she’s one of the more interesting girls that I’ve met while I’ve been here. However, I’m just not enough into her to want to chase her that much even though I thoroughly enjoyed my time with her.
If they are on dating sites (social/local or international) one presumes they are interested in relationships. If he is town for a short time, I'd have thought they'd meet him, even just for the the novelty value if nothing else.
I think they suspect or know he is dating others/many and therefore very few, if any, have been necessarily interested.
The thing is, the women with the type of character he SHOULD be trying to attract are probably the ones most offended at the impersonal approach.
Hats off to TBB for being so open about his TR though.
I agree with Patagonie that all the solo trips are a yellow flag. When an American girl does so much traveling alone it usually means that she’s sampling more than the local cuisine.
That's a common mistake many people make ... assuming that every girl in FSU just dreams about dating a foreigner and thus would do anything to achieve that.
Reality is different though, most girls, at least on mamba.ru (which as far as I understand is were the OP met his dates) have lives where they live and are reasonably happy. They are not necessarily looking for somebody to "save" them. Yes there is the novelty factor, and yeah most girls would go out with a guy from xxxx for the heck of it, but assuming they will put their lives on hold just cause somebody decided to fly 6000 miles to go on dates is ... misguided.
but most of the girls just ignored them and kept dancing alone in front of mirrors.. whats with the mirror thing anyway?
Novosibirsk sounds like an easier place to hook up with a young lady that the main Russian cities of Moscow and St. Petersburg. Thanks for sharing this trip report!
TBB, it may just be the dating approach that makes them "distant" but surely they realise you're there for a limited time... I would have thought they would make a greater effort to spend time with you.
Earlier I was wondering about the approach and thought that the amount of time and interest the girls are putting into you are probably aligned with how much time and effort they PERCEIVE you are putting into them.
The casual, relatively, short notice requests for dates surely much indicate to them that you are meeting others.
I find this interesting. I guess my question is why?? Maybe an explanation would help me understand why they should put extra effort in meeting him.
TBB has no value to the ladies and its something which is hard to comprehend for some.
Reality is different though, most girls, at least on mamba.ru (which as far as I understand is were the OP met his dates) have lives where they live and are reasonably happy. They are not necessarily looking for somebody to "save" them. Yes there is the novelty factor, and yeah most girls would go out with a guy from xxxx for the heck of it, but assuming they will put their lives on hold just cause somebody decided to fly 6000 miles to go on dates is ... misguided.
You are being a little too harsh on the men.
Of course the man needs to be realistic and not assume that the women are desperate and will change their entire life for the off chance that something will develop.
But, let's look at it a little objectively.
The men and women on dating/match sites are looking for somebody.
So now a somebody has contacted them and made a great effort to try to meet with them.
On the one hand, isn't it just common courtesy to give some consideration to fellow human beings?
And secondly, doesn't it make common sense that if you are on a dating site to try to meet someone, that you actually do meet with them when the opportunity arises (after some correspondence has transpired that indicates a mutual interest)?
Otherwise, wouldn't this be like sending in your resume to seek employment at a particular company, and then refuse to go in for an interview when they call you?
I was talking specifically about mamba.ru ... it's a Russian dating site, it's not an international dating site. Common sense even will tell you people are normally looking to date somebody local, not somebody that lives 3 continents away :)
It is a numbers game. You can't expect that the first, or even the hundredth, woman will be the one. It involves writing hundreds, thousands of women, to then find a couple dozen who would be truly interested and then eventually meeting them in life. Just because someone was looking locally, does not mean they will consider someone from farther away ;)
I don't disagree about that. Of course they will consider. But say that guy they considered dating turns up and is evidently seeing 5 more girls at the same time, would they still consider him?
I answered that page back :) If she is not desperate the answer is of course no. As I have already said, best to focus on one woman if you think there ia any chance a relationship could develop.
Well in my experience third date is fish or cut bait time. Girls will want to see progressively more attention from the guy from the 2nd - 3rd dates, and will definitely not tolerate being one of many. That's were IMO the OP's strategy falters.
One other piece of advice based in my experience. If a woman calls to cancel a date, spend some time trying to get her to change her mind. Be persistent. It will show her IMHO that you are interested in her.
TBB would have stopped seeing new gals entirely - - - if one gal had really attracted him, and she had done her part of the equation to make him her one and only - - - not just in terms of other guys, but in terms of making herself more freely available, when ever and where ever.
In retrospect, this is what I should have done with Galina. I should have just called her and sold her on coming. I don't know if it would have worked or not, but that's what I should have done. It's likely that it would have worked. I definitely rolled over too easy.
If the girl likes me, it works against her to antagonize me by wasting my time.
The problem is that the girl doesn’t perceive the value of my limited time on the ground.
True, they are not looking to be saved, but many are looking for a good husband. It is possible to meet a woman on mamba who was not looking for a foreigner yet will marry the right foreigner for love. That is how that I met my wife. I have my doubts, however, as to whether these PUA games will be useful when looking for a serious relationship.for a
You seem to be taking much more offense than these girls have ever intended.
Cancelling a date because they forgot to run some errands or are having a bad day or whatever reason is normal.
for athe OP is not getting laid, he is not even getting past first base. he has been on these forums for 9 years. the game/frame NLP methods are hurting his chances as the women seem to see through this Junior High School routine and the lack of sincerity, unwillingness to make romantic comments, show affection with traditional small romantic gifts and unwillingness to be exclusive.seriouslong relationship.
Game is a tool, some get laid several times per week if they are very good, and some aim to have a long term relationship (TBB is one of them) or a marriage. Assistance of game is less than 5 % in the long term relationship (after few weeks), natural human qualities are better.
In retrospect, this is what I should have done with Galina. I should have just called her and sold her on coming. I don't know if it would have worked or not, but that's what I should have done. It's likely that it would have worked. I definitely rolled over too easy.
In Anna's case it is less clear. The whole "power struggle" we had going on was making me crazy, and calling her and trying to get her to change her mind would have played into her hand. You may be right in this case, too, but it's less clear... at least to me.
the OP is not getting laid, he is not even getting past first base. he has been on these forums for 9 years. the game/frame NLP methods are hurting his chances as the women seem to see through this Junior High School routine and the lack of sincerity, unwillingness to make romantic comments, show affection with traditional small romantic gifts and unwillingness to be exclusive.
And what is the point? Have you better advice... have you found the woman for you?
Neither have I... well, maybe just recently. But time will tell.
I am not the VM type. I could not do it even if I tried. But we each choose our own path, most of it just learning... with no immediate result. But that is how we grow.
I appreciate TwoBit's honesty, and at times, self reflection.
Even if it is not what I would do, I think he is learning from this, and to a lessor extent, we are too. As he writes and lives it we can learn from it. But he is learning much more than we are.
Give him some slack, he has been polite (mostly, though I would have been MUCH harsher under the circumstances ;) ) and responded to all criticisms.
the point is that game/frame NLP methods are not working. what works is real sincerity, being affectionate and romantic, and a willingness to be exclusive.
the point is that game/frame NLP methods are not working. what works is real sincerity, being affectionate and romantic, and a willingness to be exclusive.
what works is real sincerity, being affectionate and romantic, and a willingness to be exclusive.There are plenty of sincere, affectionate, romantic and exclusive guys who have failed. I suggest it isn't any of those things in and of themselves but the "timing" upon which they are applied. I don't know if or not TBB will go that way with any woman but his report is a demonstration of one way of filtering it down to that point. Others may choose to go early........................ :noidea:
80% sincerity and 20% game is probably workable. at some point you've got to commit to being exclusive and be willing to get your heart crushed. no pain, no gain.Again........................timing?
I have to figure out the different between мат and мать and лож and ложь through context, and can't pronounce the difference at all.
Even if it is not what I would do, . . . .
Have you counted up the number of times you insist on saying this?
the OP is not getting laid, he is not even getting past first base. he has been on these forums for 9 years. the game/frame NLP methods are hurting his chances as the women seem to see through this Junior High School routine and the lack of sincerity, unwillingness to make romantic comments, show affection with traditional small romantic gifts and unwillingness to be exclusive.I suppose most prefer the VO trip where the guy and gal jump into the hotel bed, love at first sight, and live happily ever after, or for a couple of years anyway...
The only necessary objective of his VM trip is for TBB to get enough face-to-face time to determine if the lady is workable for him or not.
a macho man with tons of women running after him...
I suppose most prefer the VO trip where the guy and gal jump into the hotel bed, love at first sight, and live happily ever after, or for a couple of years anyway...
The only necessary objective of his VM trip is for TBB to get enough face-to-face time to determine if the lady is workable for him or not. Ladies are known to change their minds, so whether or not she is sold on him right now is not necessarily a deal breaker. Making a commitment during the trip can actually be a negative.
There is plenty of time for talk and skype and telling her she is his one-and-only after he gets back home. He can even keep emailing and skyping 2 ro 3 ladies and delay the decision even longer until his next trip which would probably be a VO . It is very common for the lady to lose interest totally after the man leaves town, or after a few emails. That happened to me after my first VM trip.
the OP is not getting laid, he is not even getting past first base
the lack of sincerity, unwillingness to make romantic comments, show affection with traditional small romantic gifts and unwillingness to be exclusive.
the point is that game/frame NLP methods are not working. what works is real sincerity, being affectionate and romantic, and a willingness to be exclusive.
I did find a woman on my first trip to Ukraine which was WOVO. she invited me to stay in her flat so it was a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship right away. is she the one? I don't know, that is undecided.
a WMVM trip can work if eventually you pare it down and become exclusive. otherwise it is just MM and ZNS.
I appreciate and respect honest, constructive feedback.
Whats your point Brad? Sorry but your comments are really negative. Big deal.. you found a girl on your wovo.. my first trip wasn't even to look for women and I found one.. a really awesome one.. and things fell apart afterwards because of distance and communication issues.. finding.. mating.. keeping.. and getting together in the same place are all different and highly complex steps.
TBB had an awesome adventure. He was kind enough to share it in a thought provoking and rather respectful way. I have in the past been extremely critical of how men have written about wmvm because their TRs sound more like shopping trips and sex tourism than experiences with individual and unique personalities. TBB wrote in a way that is in fact respectful of the ladies and more than self reflective enough.
And quite frankly.. the fact that he chose not to gt laid says a lot about his character and his seriousness in finding the right lady. I tell you.. where I live.. I can go out every night if I want.. and find a different sex partner.. but.. that isn't going ot cure my longing.. on the contrary it will make it worse. It wouldn't be hard to do the same in the FSU if that is the goal. It takes a lot of self control to be the gentleman TBB was on this trip.
I also suspect that in the next few weeks/months.. TBB will find out from the girls which one really rises to the top. See.. that is how game works and in the case of the FSU where people have a tendency to really live in the moment.. now that they realize his time was in fact limited.. some of those ladies are going to understand they want more.
I think he handled it perfectly.
Hats off to TBB for the best TR I can remember reading.
my point is that he may have lost an opportunity with Anna and others because he was so concerned about being in control. he did not return her call in a timely fashion because he wanted to have the upper hand. like Misha pointed out, she was showing that she really liked him by calling him. many women will not call a man, they expect the man to take the initiative. all of the attempts to control game/frame was probably detrimental to his chances. why spend $4,000 to go to Russia but refuse to buy a lady some flowers and a small present to show your affection?? why refuse to acknowledge that a lady is beautiful, if indeed as he stated she looked hot? if you care about a lady you have to be willing to tell her and to show her that you are serious about her. I doubt if he will have any further relationships with any of these women.
my point is that he may have lost an opportunity with Anna and others because he was so concerned about being in control. he did not return her call in a timely fashion because he wanted to have the upper hand. like Misha pointed out, she was showing that she really liked him by calling him. many women will not call a man, they expect the man to take the initiative. all of the attempts to control game/frame was probably detrimental to his chances. why spend $4,000 to go to Russia but refuse to buy a lady some flowers and a small present to show your affection?? why refuse to acknowledge that a lady is beautiful, if indeed as he stated she looked hot? if you care about a lady you have to be willing to tell her and to show her that you are serious about her. I doubt if he will have any further relationships with any of these women.
... refuse to buy a lady some flowers and a small present to show your affection?? why refuse to acknowledge that a lady is beautiful, if indeed as he stated she looked hot? if you care about a lady you have to be willing to tell her and to show her that you are serious about her. I doubt if he will have any further relationships with any of these women.
my point is that he may have lost an opportunity with Anna and others because he was so concerned about being in control.
the OP is not getting laid, he is not even getting past first base. he has been on these forums for 9 years. the game/frame NLP methods are hurting his chances as the women seem to see through this Junior High School routine and the lack of sincerity, unwillingness to make romantic comments, show affection with traditional small romantic gifts and unwillingness to be exclusive.Dear Brad even if your sincerity seems to be perhaps a little rude i must say that i agree.
the point is that game/frame NLP methods are not working. what works is real sincerity, being affectionate and romantic, and a willingness to be exclusive.I don't agree. Game raise your worth, is more playful, more funny, speed the emotionnal state of the girl AND (both) if you give her affection, little gifts, be romantic and engage you in exclusive way you are a real winner. You can be a player and make both, there is no fundamental opposit between those things. Again the A3 phasis is the key of this topic, not in a technical manner, but more as a philosophy, enhanced by the fact that the courtship for a marriage after few meetings, impose to avoid for a large part the "i'm hard to get way". The state of the art is to convey it in an implicit way because you are and no because you show it (and i'm less experienced than a lot of guys but it seems that RW don't like superlative). OP thank for a true TR.
80% sincerity and 20% game is probably workable. at some point you've got to commit to being exclusive and be willing to get your heart crushed. no pain, no gain.In certain way we are not so far :)
I just have a question... talking about honesty what do you think would happen if you honestly told the girls about your scheduled dates and "games"? or at least about scheduled dates? :)Because you think really girls told us how many boys they have in contact, and how many they schedule to meet, and what they do with local man ? Girls are the queens to manage their relationship from their fourteen, do you know what is the name of this state of art ? Game.
Here in the south, tokens of interest and/or affection are an absolutely natural part of gentlemanly courtship.
When he first posted about it, I thought the same. But...
After thinking about it some, maybe he did himself a favor. I'll explain. I'd never heard the use of 'frame' like this before, but I understand it as a 'frame of mind'.
So TBB is in the frame of mind that he wants to be 'the man' in a relationship. He wants to lead and be in charge. Her frame of mind might be that she wants a man wrapped around her finger. The way she teased and flirted with him but then refused a simple kiss makes it seem that way to me. Despite whatever compatibility and chemistry they had, they're not on the same page. TBB could have given in to her game and maybe got laid. But in the long run, I think he's better off finding someone who's on the same page or 'frame'. He hasn't cut off contact with Anna, so only time will tell.
she is most likely to want him to take charge and lead at that point
I was worried about (a) being fined at the airport in Novosibirsk and (b) passport control asking why I didn’t register in Novosibirsk since I was there, but neither happened.
Can you believe that there’s free wifi here?I can actually. A year ago I was walking near the bottom of red square, watching the changing of the guards, chatting via Skype on my Iphone using McDonald's free wifi to a good friend back home in Aus. Nikita would have been banging more than his shoe at the sight (and knowledge) of that.
Day 16: Sunday, July 11 She also has more clarity about what she wants out of life than the other girls.
I didn’t return the call because...
AND THAT’S ALL SHE WROTE FOLKS!
Elena is quite intelligent and we have a good conversation, but she’s not that much into me. She doesn’t hold eye contact with me very long, never touches me and doesn’t do any of the traditional “I’m interested” things (playing with her hair or jewelry, smiling at me, letting our shoulders touch as we walk side by side, etc.)
She just isn’t into me that much. When the show is over, I take her hand to lead her out of the huge crowd, but I can tell by her response that she doesn’t want me to hold it so I let go right away. At the corner where we need to go in different directions, we say goodbye.
I’m into Elena and I’d like to see her again, but I don’t think it’s going to go anywhere. I suspect that she might accept a second date… but the problem is that she has control of the frame.
I tell her something like, “I was talking to my friend, and I told him I met this girl named Elena. She seemed really intelligent, but she was really standoffish. That’s the problem with smart girls: they overanalyze everything, and by the time they are ready to make a decision the window of opportunity has closed.“ This gets her interest.
I’ve clearly increased her interest level: she’s leaning forward, constantly playing with her necklace and twirled her finger in her hair a few times.
In the evening I could meet with Evgenia or Elena if I can sell them, or I can try to pull in some new girls. There’s plenty of prospects I think.
In the beginning Elena was intriguing, and her standoffishness was like a puzzle to be solved. Now I’ve just simply lost interest, even after having invested a lot of time with her. I just feel like we don’t connect when we talk, and she doesn’t understand me and I don’t understand her. I’m doubting now that I’ll do another date with her. I dropped Elena just because she was too introverted and there just wasn't enough of a draw.
Despite all your reading, TwoBit, I submit that you don't really understand women. All the women on this thread have told you so, in one way or another, but you've rejected their comments.
Women have differing views on what is attractive. I think most women want a man who projects confidence, but beyond that, everything is subjective. Ultimately, a woman is going to live with the real you, not what you project, or some evolutionary theory.
Her frame of mind might be that she wants a man wrapped around her finger.
Basic instinct is an undeniable force and an irresistable inspiration. You lay the 'WOW' factor in a woman, she will break prior engagements, forget errands, shun her dog, her family, her friends, etc..just to spend time with you again - and again, and again. She will sit by her phone hoping for your call. Some women will even easily betray their husband/marriage, boyfriends/fiancee, friends and sisters, etc...just to be with you. That's just life..
... You'll see the glint in her eyes when she start to feel numbed. Every woman will show that. She will think of no one else but YOU. So leave the speculation to everyone else.
Basic instinct is an undeniable force and an irresistable inspiration. You lay the 'WOW' factor in a woman, she will break prior engagements, forget errands, shun her dog, her family, her friends, etc..just to spend time with you again - and again, and again. She will sit by her phone hoping for your call. Some women will even easily betray their husband/marriage, boyfriends/fiancee, friends and sisters, etc...just to be with you. That's just life..
Yes, some women are like that.
TBB - Galina is probably seeing other men and makes since she is not in a committed relationship. June, July, and August are months where foreign men visit in high numbers. So like you who is juggling different dates Galina is well.
She is going to Greece with a foreign man or local man.
Not in my experience. Many women are more than capable of thinking with their heads.
Not in my experience.I can see that, so I agree.
Many women are more than capable of thinking with their heads.Which explains above, so I agree.
Then again I have no pretensions of being a player ;)I have no doubt you aren't, so yes, completely agree there too!
Misha there are probably much more women who are capable of thinking with their heads than men ;) :D
3 for 3...
I can see that, so I agree.
Which explains above, so I agree.
I have no doubt you aren't, so yes, completely agree there too!
So you see, we do agree in some areas, eh? :P
I could make a few statements that you would disagree with, but I shall bite my tongue :evil:
She might decide that he is now workable for her ;)Not sure what you are saying. Explain further.
Bingo! Infidelities. Unless you also believe most if not all RMs are gay then one can easily conclude there's just as many Russian women playin'-n-cheatin' as there are Russian men, yes?
...and guess who is generally responsible in raising these men? Yep, it sure ain't Mr. Deadbeat Sergei.
There's no such thing as a partly-poisoned well.
Not sure what you are saying. Explain further.
I had one AFA gal turn down my request to meet on the last day of my 1st VM trip.
It would be a facile conclusion. You should know that women are perfectly capable of having sex with more than one man.
My biggest mistake is to chase the girl I can keep the interest of but not quite catch. A foreign guy in good shape with money and confidence can get some attention from hot girls just by being different. Having a foreign guy come and chase them can be entertaining for girls, and it’s a refreshing break from their normal lives. So, they’ll lead you on a little even if they don’t have a serious interest. On this trip I need to be better at detecting this situation and either (a) cutting them loose or (b) kicking up my game a notch.
The thing to keep in mind is that TBB was not meeting AFA gals, simply regular Russian women on Russian dating sites who clearly were not desperate. Given this fact, they are much more likely IMHO to tell a man such a TBB to take a hike.
There are subtle differences that can make or break a situation that are different from dating in America.Can't say I agree with you. If he's the right guy, most any method will work. If he's not the right guy, almost nothing will work, except maybe showering her with cash flow.
Can't say I agree with you. If he's the right guy, most any method will work. If he's not the right guy, almost nothing will work, except maybe showering her with cash flow.
Remember that young Russian women have been trained by Russian men within the Russian culture, not by American men in Silicon Valley.
...
Unless the prevailing wisdom being spent here is doing exactly that and lavishing these women with gifts and try convincing them how much he's into each one, or any of them, despite the signals they're giving him. If so, then, I will admit such act is something alien to me.
Her plan A man at the moment is not TBB unless TBB left out important details.
But what he wrote was she was very busy and did not have time for her and did not mention who she was going with. Tells me something otherwise. ... How many women travel to Greece by themselves? Good looking women juggle men before they commit just like VM men. Her plan A man at the moment is not TBB unless TBB left out important details.
Let's see, on the first date, TBB reports that she is going to Turkey and on the second Greece. Perhaps TBB did not quite understand everything. It happens, I know from personal experience, when you are learning a second language ;)
I would wager that she was purposefully trying to get a rise out of TBB to see if he was interested in her. As I noted, many RW will see a bit of jealousy as a good thing as it means that the man has feelings for her.
Misha I think it is way too early to talk about jealousy and feelings ;D
Most likely she is indifferent to TBB.
She was likely interested at the beginning, but the problem, IMHO, is that all these PUA games will quickly leave your average RW indifferent ;)
Misha, I can not tell what the beginning was... just a few correspondence and phone calls ::) So what. Attitude could be "we will see if I will have time and wish" She is chatting on mamba or whatever site with different people it doesn't mean she has a truly interest in all of them but just to kill the time :D
Why? My wife was chatting on mamba while looking for a husband.
Misha, ok that's fine that your wife was looking for a husband but there are also girls on mamba who don't look for a husband... So what?
GQBlues, sometimes your posts seem like riddles to me. I sometimes read them four or five times trying to figure out the point you're trying to make. I know you have a lot of life experience so I'm interested in figuring out the point, but I just can't figure out what it is.
And GQ wouldn't admit it, but he can be as obscure as meYes, I do have my Sphinx-tendencies now and then, eh? ;D But the title is still safe with you though.
I can't recall anyone suggesting to do something as idiotic as "lavishing these women with gifts". I think I mentioned giving some flowers (because he sounded like he was really into her, and she was, at least at first really into him -- she sent major signals, then turned colder after being, from her perspective, spurned), and Brad suggested flowers and a CD.. did I miss something else in the thread?
Sure, some look for sponsors, some look for clients, but most women on Mamba in their mid to late twenties are looking for a husband or at least a long-term relationship IMHO. they may not state it overtly, but it ia certainly a consideration.
Mamba do in fact have a bigger domestic dating base, it is not absolved of providing a wide database of men & women, especially ex-pats living abroad, to other Russian living in Russia.
Not all women in their mid 20s, and even mid 30s and 40s are looking just for marriage and no need to put them into the bad categories.
If I had to base my experience dating these women, the suggestion that somehow there's a different set of rules in dating these women is completely bogus for me. IMO, women react to the same stimuli the world over.
Women in in Russia in their mid-twenties will be very self-conscious of the fact that they are not married, their married friends (i.e. most of their friends) will see them as a potential threat, and they may have already surveyed the pool of eligible bachelors and have concluded that the pickings range from slim to nonexistent.
But situation has begun to change and in the big megapolises young women have started to postpone the idea of marriage till their social establishment. In provinces especially in small towns marriages in early age still happen due to a woman's pregnancy.
Misha, when you see playboy style photos of women in their 20s (mid or late) on the websites of dating agencies do you think they are marriage minded?
When you were dating women in Cali, did you use tactics like not returning calls, acting disinterested and aloof? What do you think of the stuff the master Pick Up Artists teach (if you know anything about it)?
The thing is, those dating tactics do work here. In Russia, especially with women who haven't been outside of Russia... not so much.
In my experience dating in Russia is less game and more straightforward. It's definitely easier.
... but it is still not the case.
it is generally because the women wanted to get married.
The women that you refer...
Actually I refereed to women in their 20s (mid or late) who place their photos taken in playboy style to lure the men. Do you really think they are marriage minded?
In my past experience, based on my active search before meeting my wife, most women on mamba.ru do not use "photos taken in playboy style" to lure men.
Yes, it is on mambar.ru and in their profiles they say clearly what they want (usually sponsor and sex for money) In my previous post I was talking about dating agencies, you know "Russian marriage minded women" ;D
GQ, well aside from our Trinkets of Affection debate, we have a hell of a lot in common in our approach to women (at least meeting on the street).
The only thing I'd really add to that is that, personally, I absolutely do not care what anyone (female OR male) thinks about me... that's actually amazingly liberating to be exactly one's self in any situation whether in the world, on a bass boat, the workplace, posting on a forum, or 'dating'. I think women have a sixth sense to determine whether someone is being real (though they too can rationalize away that intuition and wind up chasing a player).
A-hah!, so you were a slut too, eh! :P ;)
But no, seriously though...being true with many of these women really does wonders. I will never forget an exchange I had with a stupidly beautiful woman after one of my boys tried to stab me in the back. Out of jealousy perhaps, I don't know...
So I met this gal and things were pretty cozy and was about to head out and deal. When I went to close my tab at the bar, apparently one of my boys told the gal what will be all I'm interested with her about...so as she was driving to her place, she said to me that I should maybe try to choose my friends a little more carefully. When I ask her why she said that, she said.....
" Greg warned me that all you'll want from me is sex and that I should stay away from you because he felt I was too nice a girl just to be treated like that!.."
I didn't say anything. Silence. Then she looked at me, I glanced back to her sheepishly, then we both busted up laughing...
She said..."LOL. For a minute there, I was concerned you might want something more than that!".
You know, I wish some of my boys will just clean up their acts and realize hazy images in the mirror are definitely closer than they appear. You know what I mean?
Olga, in all my posts, I have only referred to mamba.ru and only mamba.ru. I will not comment on the dating agencies, as I never used them. Also, TBB was using the mamba network, and only mamba, to find his dates.
Compare this to North America:
1. Though some women may marry early, many women still consider 25 or 26 "too young to marry" and their biological clocks don't start ticking until their mid-thirties and many women will wait until they are close to 40 to have a child
2. It is rare that I will see an educated woman who has a child in her early twenties. Very rare to see young couples with children at university;
3. Women, though it could be argued they face some forms of systemic discrimination, do not face the overt in your face discrimination that many women will face in Russia and other countries in the FSU.
Given these factors, IMHO, this changes the dating dynamic quite radically in the FSU. A woman in her late 20s or early 30s in Canada who is attractive will be able to get lots of dates and she will often believe that she has plenty of time to get married and have children. She is in my experience much pickier as to whom she will date and she won't be in any rush to commit to any guy. This was the exact opposite of what I found in Russia.
North American women are just as concerned if they don't have a man in their mid twenties as Russian women. They may not be in as big a rush to marry, but they definitely want a man.
Misha, Ok I understand.
what I noticed that mamba women who honestly say in their profiles that they look for a sponsor, sex for money or just one-night stand without sponsoring don't use too provocative photos as some "marriage minded women" on the website of dating agencies. And not all women who want to marry are really "marriage minded"
I can't recall anyone suggesting to do something as idiotic as "lavishing these women with gifts". I think I mentioned giving some flowers (because he sounded like he was really into her, and she was, at least at first really into him -- she sent major signals, then turned colder after being, from her perspective, spurned), and Brad suggested flowers and a CD.. did I miss something else in the thread?
Of course, my poem up thread is a major woman winner on any continent.. anyone, feel free to use it verbatim with only a minor royalty paid in fresh borshch and/or homemade pelmeni... :evil:
My point runs completely counter to what all of the folks here are suggesting. My point is directly based on my experiences meeting and dealing with these Russian women, mostly from Moscow - age range: 22 - 33 (final line-up). My experience told me dating these women was NO different than dating the women back home or anywhere else for that matter. This is what befuddles me when folks keep suggesting to men how they need to date these girls differently. For the curious mind, the women I met and went out with, with the exception of one (a student), every single one of them have money, or well-established profession, or came from a well-stocked household. All have travelled to either WE or USA. One lived and studied in NY for 7 years. Thus, I can go point for point to clearly clarify why most of the general 'advice' in dating these women ran counter to what I have done and believe. But this is your thread, so I'll refrain.
If I had to base my experience dating these women, the suggestion that somehow there's a different set of rules in dating these women is completely bogus for me. IMO, women react to the same stimuli the world over.
Which brings me to you. On one hand you seem to suggest how easy it has been for you to game US women. But in your TR (and I'm not trying to get on your case), you detailed your dating behavior along the way as though you're a typical AM having to go to Russia because no one else will date him at home. Frankly, IMO, it's relatively harder to date US women than Russian women. In more ways than one, even guys living and dating in Russia professes to that fact. So I'm not so sure 'why' you got into a pickle second-guessing yourself with girls like 'Anna'. You went out with her 4 times, yet somehow you couldn't reach first base let alone close a deal. Something was happening there, or better said, wasn't happening there.
All I'm saying here is, there's an obvious disconnect (at least to me) in what you told us that you can do back home and how things seem to play out for you in Novo (Russia). Why the disconnect? I don't know. Maybe you can share this in depth with us? I am not getting down on you. I've always known you to have what it takes to get you where you want to be. This is largely why I'm a bit surprised to read some of your entries.
Did not catch the Greece and Turkey and changes my opinion as she probably told TBB who she was going to be with. TBB, if you have a hard time understanding Russian you might do better in the future finding women who speak English or use a translator.
That's just it. I never had any pre-conceived, pre-planned, pre-structured disposition, tactics, etc...with any of the women I socially ran across with before. I never subscribed, read, researched, learned any dating 101 tips from anyone or anywhere. I would think that simply confine your instincts and would likely shape you into something you're not instinctively equipped and capable to carry on through. My hormones were enough to drive my education and motivation. […] So be honest with them, with your intention, and stay within yourself and who you are. Dating is, and always be far easier that way. Find your balance.
So I don't subscribe to the notion women will not meet any man who was planning to see other women. I believe that depends on the man. It has nothing to do with looks, money, etc...as I am the ugliest, poorest humanoid aside from Quasimodo that ever tolled the bells of Notre Dame and laid eyes upon some Russian blues - so I am certain that most of you boyz have an advantage over me and yet I will still say I don't subscribe there's a different set of rules dating in Russia as they do anywhere else. These sisters may speak different languages but they send out the exact same signals.
Misha, I was talking about marriage agencies that offer Russian marriage minded women to Westerners.
My point is that not all women who want to marry are marriage minded and family oriented as you think, some of them have another reason for marriage and it doesn't matter if they are from agencies or dating websites or just from the street.
That's just it. I never had any pre-conceived, pre-planned, pre-structured disposition, tactics, etc...with any of the women I socially ran across with before. I never subscribed, read, researched, learned any dating 101 tips from anyone or anywhere. I would think that simply confine your instincts and would likely shape you into something you're not instinctively equipped and capable to carry on through. My hormones were enough to drive my education and motivation.
I never had any pre-constructed line at any one time I walked up to a woman. Never once. My friends used to ask and wonder what I tell these women. I never knew what to tell them because I never bothered with lines. Almost to the very last nano-second do the words come rushing out of me and seem to always get her locked on. This is why I believe it is even far easier when there's more than just one woman. Especially if they're all gorgeous. What is it I end up saying? I can't tell you cause I do not know. I see someone I like, I walk to her and lock her on. That is part of the reason why I do not like 'wingmen'. I don't like to travel in a pack. Going solo is the only way to go, you travel light so you can be very flexible on up to your ensuing sleeping accomodation.
As for dissin' calls and playing hard to get, I don't play that game. So I can't tell you how that works. If I don't answer someone's call, it is simply because I have nothing to say. Not because I am playing a game. I never had time to play games with women. These times I'd rather used meeting new ones. All I can tell you is that most, if not all of the women I've met and have known knew from the get go what my intentions are and what they can expect from me. Just like the women in Russia. Every single one of them, including those those I decided against meeting prior to the trip knew they will be, and would've been, one of many women I planned on meeting. I still have that cell phone I used in Moscow that still have the text messages I was getting from the gals and some of them is just plain funny.
There was one woman in Moscow who was furious with me because she said she kept calling me but my number wasn't working. Apparently when I emailed her my number once I got my service, I inadvertently mixed the order of the last 3 numbers up. Man, LOL, reading her email full of CAPS and exclamation points (must be at least 30 on a 4 sentence email) it was obvious she wasn't too elated for not being able to get a hold of me while I was in her town. She definitely ingested some heavy AW bitch water, man. I had to chuckle trying to get a visual of her while she was writing that message. LOL. Long after that trip, she was scheduled to NY on a business trip and had dropped me an email asking if I'll entertain hosting her for a weekend in LA. Tempting as it was, I was already locked exclusively with my wife. So I had nothing to say to her so I didn't reply.
So I don't subscribe to the notion women will not meet any man who was planning to see other women. I believe that depends on the man. It has nothing to do with looks, money, etc...as I am the ugliest, poorest humanoid aside from Quasimodo that ever tolled the bells of Notre Dame and laid eyes upon some Russian blues - so I am certain that most of you boyz have an advantage over me and yet I will still say I don't subscribe there's a different set of rules dating in Russia as they do anywhere else. These sisters may speak different languages but they send out the exact same signals.
Cold meeting on the street and getting their phone numbers? Twice in Moscow my first trip, 4 times in St Pete. and I not only cannot speak Russian, I looked like a lost long-haired Uzbek looking for hard physical work. So compared myself to a whole lot of you, you boyz ought to be on Easy Street...
So the point on this post, it's tough enough for many men to have to date across the globe. It becomes even more difficult making them believe somehow they need to be aware Russian women are another breed of females all together. They're not IMO.
So be honest with them, with your intention, and stay within yourself and who you are. Dating is, and always be far easier that way. Find your balance.
******
Average age of women at first marriage - per country (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_age_at_fir_mar_for_wom-people-age-first-marriage-women) US = 25. Russia = 27.5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_at_first_marriage) ::)
Again, I am not talking about these agencies.
My experience is different. All the young women that I met over the last 15 years in Russia were interested in getting married.
My opinion and experience with gifts is this: if the girl is into you and you’ve already got her very attracted, then gifts can make her heart melt. The time to give gifts is when you have control of the frame. If you give a gift before you have her really attracted, then it can come across as try-hard and needy. Gifts must come from and appear to be from the frame, “I’m glad we spend time together and I want you to have this.” As soon as a gift comes from or appears to come from the frame “I’m trying to suck up to you and buy your affection,” you’re done. You must get the girl attracted to you first. If I had given a gift to Anna it probably would have come across like that, so I didn’t.
Misha you can talk about your experience as much as your want but from my observation I can tell that not all women who are interested in getting married are marriage minded.
Misha, let me ask you again do you understand that there are other reasons why some women want to marry? No need to talk about stats (especially 10 y.o.) because stats don't mention the reasons.
Now, please tell me, what are these reasons that you hint at in your post :rolleyes2:
Some women marry just solely of financial reason, some women marry because of their stupidity, in the light of international dating some women marry just to get out of their country ;)
Do you know that Muscovite men usually don't marry women from other Russian regions but Muscovite women willingly go for sham marriage with gastarbeiters? Do you know why?
The women I met were looking to marry for that quaint notion of love and marriage to a good man :rolleyes2:
Sure, the other women certainly existed, but I did not really meet any such women.
Misha it is really doesn't matter what women your have met because you know not all the women will disclose you their true intention ;D
Yes, Misha, Russia is a country of Saints ;D
You are a supernatural, and unconcious concious. you claim to be ugly, but be honest are you big and rugged like a rugby player?? women are attracted to that, and your natural ease around women seals the deal.
...If the ‘yourself’ you are is able to catch women you’re happy with, then great. If not, then you need to transform the ‘yourself’ into a better ‘yourself,” in which case “be yourself” isn’t helpful advice...
You are a supernatural, and unconcious concious. you claim to be ugly, but be honest are you big and rugged like a rugby player??
That's just it. I never had any pre-conceived, pre-planned, pre-structured disposition, tactics, etc...with any of the women I socially ran across with before. I never subscribed, read, researched, learned any dating 101 tips from anyone or anywhere. I would think that simply confine your instincts and would likely shape you into something you're not instinctively equipped and capable to carry on through. My hormones were enough to drive my education and motivation.I think you're confusing dating with mentality. Apples and oranges IMO. You're right dating isn't much different here, but the mentality inside the person you're dating is.
I don't subscribe there's a different set of rules dating in Russia as they do anywhere else. These sisters may speak different languages but they send out the exact same signals.
So be honest with them, with your intention, and stay within yourself and who you are. Dating is, and always be far easier that way. Find your balance.
Naw, he's ugly. :P :-*
The best dating advice I got came from guys I know who sucked with girls in high school and got much better, because they all made the same Classic Dating Mistakes. I didn't learn much from guys who had ten belt notches at age fifteen: they'd just say things like “be confident.”
Generating attraction as discussed in this thread is 50% art and 50% science. It's cool and all, but there are a hell of a lot of women (or people in general) that I really don't want to attract (even if they're HOT). Being completely true to yourself kinda weeds many of those out automatically. Cool deal, less work and less thought.
Hey Jooky. You remember that conversation we had regarding the differences in AW and RW the last time you were in Moscow and what I mention as one of the differences?
But anyway, the fact you authored a very popular and worthy thread, would you like to share some final thoughts about your trip with everyone?
For example, in Cali, I see a lot of guys succeeding with the aloof and disinterested or 'being a dick' game. In Russia, I don't see this much and I don't think it would work so well. In Russia I've seen guys succeed by being aggressive in ways that would be considered harassment in the US. There's a lot more, but I'm keeping it brief.
TwoBit, I guess you'll keep in contact and see how things progress. At first I thought you might have blown it with Anna, but on second thought she was playing too many games with you, and maybe you're still uncomfortable around a girl like her and she could feel it. I think you're better off finding that women that you're comfortable with and skip the 'push and pull' games that Anna was playing with you.
I have to figure out the different between мат and мать and лож and ложь through context, and can't pronounce the difference at all.OK, "мат and мать" is understandable but we don't have such word as "лож" and we pronounce "ложь" as [лош]. :)
Well, I just can't let a perfectly good debate on Russian grammar go past me. I occasionally translate Russian articles and stories as homework assignments. One of the articles I translated was "In Defense of Scrooge," (http://mises.org/article.aspx?Id=573) which I later regretted due to its complex bookish style of English usage. It was a difficult text to translate. One of the sentences in it was "The biggest of the Big Lies about Scrooge is the pointlessness of his pursuit of money." which I translated as "Самая большая из больших лож о Скрудже -- бессмысленность его преследования денег." My teacher argued that the word for lie, ложа, wasn't used in Russian in the plural. I found two contradictory texts. I have a specialized dictionary that shows irregular forms of the genitive plural, which is useful since the genitive plural is the most irregular form. This dictionary also implied that that the word ложа wasn't used in the plural. Yet, another online reference source I use noted that лож was the correct genitive plural for this word. In addition, my teacher's Russian dictionary, which normally contains a notation for words that are only used in the singular didn't use this notation for the word ложа. Since two out of three reference sources supported my translation, I eventually got her to concede that my translation is at least defensible.Im confused, why are you using word ложа at all in that sentence?
So, following that logic, I contend that the issue of hearing and pronouncing the difference between лож and ложь is an issue of some merit. 8)
Yeah, I will... but not tonight... I spent tonight's intellectual effort writing to the actual girls... :)Very interesting, what do you mean above by caveman game and harrassment behavior?
That's funny, because I've seen the same exact thing. I've seen some Russian guys running some hardcore caveman game and thinking, "Can't that get you arrested?" Apparently, it's all good clean fun in Russia!
3. Women still face discrimination in the workforce and their abilities to move up are still hindered.
The cost of making bad choices is small because the legal and tax systems are biased in favor of transferring wealth from productive men to single mothers, and thirtysomething men will still consider them viable mates in their early and mid thirities.
In Russia this simply isn’t the case: the cost for picking the wrong man is huge. The life of a single mother is hell, and the state doesn’t do much of anything to help them.
So, Olga, tell us what your true intentions were when you married :evil:
There are some bad apples,
but in my experience, the overwhelming majority of Russians are decent folk.
Really interesting comment. From what I know all the current pick up masters teaching their 'game' sucked at dating. They learned by observing guys like GQ, who probably wouldn't have been able to teach them what they were doing, extracting the science from the art.
I think what GQ doesn't see is that what is universal is how he attracts women. Because it comes naturally for him, he doesn't notice the differences that other guys deal with. It's just not part of his world.
As far as dating, I'm thinking....instead of learning from PUAs, sharks and shaggers alike, wouldn't it be easier, and would make a whole lot more sense, to learn and understand what makes a woman tick from women themselves?
...
btw Chatsworth!?! Yikes! Chatsworth and the SF valley girls have long departed, shortly after Tom Petty and the Wednesday Cruise night along Van Nuys Bl disappeared. You've definitely been gone a while ;)
As far as dating, I'm thinking....instead of learning from PUAs, sharks and shaggers alike, wouldn't it be easier, and would make a whole lot more sense, to learn and understand what makes a woman tick from women themselves?
That would require some sincere interest in what women have to say about their wants or needs. For TBB, it's not relevant. His dating game is a one-man show; the ladies are but talking props. If they support the show, they are deemed promising; if they are too independent, they are discarded.:cluebat:
That would require some sincere interest in what women have to say about their wants or needs. For TBB, it's not relevant. His dating game is a one-man show; the ladies are but talking props.B/F, is this not perhaps true of each and every one of us (Men and Women) to at least some small extent until or if we happen across "the" person who really touches our buttons?
I agree. I want to date women, not men that think they know how to date women. I have always thought it is good to go to the source for that type of information.
And Chatsworth GONE!!!! Oh the loss (imagine tears running down my cheeks)... Those rocky hills have a lot of very cool places to take a girl you just met down in the park. Sigh... at least I have the memories.
My personal experience is i spent 30 years with girls and woman, listening her carefully and trying to understand them. I read a lot of psychology books too since my fourteen. This two ways are irrelevant.
The reason here is that there is something in this particular man that attracts women. Don't ask me what I don't know, BUT I immediately feel it as a woman. MY female instincts tell me this.
The biggest complaint from my lady friends: "Why can't I find a nice guy?!" :'(
The more contemporary remark heard through the 'O' channel is, "I'd rather have sex with a man within or about the first date, then spend the time to see if he's a nice guy. As oppose to wasting my time trying to find out if he's a nice guy before having sex, only to find out he 'sux' in it!".Sounds like a big slut :P Have sex with every single guy she goes out with on the first date? oi oi. Unless of course she only gets one date in half a year ?
Sounds like a big slut...
"I'd rather have sex with a man within or about the first date, then spend the time to see if he's a nice guy. As oppose to wasting my time trying to find out if he's a nice guy before having sex, only to find out he 'sux' in it!".
Now, take the time to hang out with the boys, especially in these endeavor and these boards
Sounds like a big slut :P Have sex with every single guy she goes out with on the first date? oi oi. Unless of course she only gets one date in half a year ? If he sux at it, she could try teaching him what to do, instead of just dumping him :P
ever wonder why women say they seek 'nice guys' then phocks the next badboy that comes walking by?
If the women TwoBitBandit was meeting had taken that attitude, he would have been in heaven. :
I agree. I want to date women, not men that think they know how to date women. I have always thought it is good to go to the source for that type of information.
"At least where I grew up, and as TwoBit also noticed women will say they want the opposite of what they really choose."she may be having sex with him, but she wont have his babies or make any kind of serious relationship with him, i bet. When you look for a relationship you look for one set of things. When you look for fun, you look for something different
Typical AW story, i have tons of sort of this story.
We are sixty persons to have a dinner and disco. Near to me, all along the dinner a female in her mid thirty was explaining about what she want for her romance : "oh i need a gentle, kind guy. I'm a real serious women and i want only serious relations, faithfulness is important, i need time to know people + many minutes of BS.
Two hours after she began to dance with the well known f**cker of the party. Four hours after she was in the car of the guy car in the car park all lights off (she always have the driving licence for your information). :D :D :D 8) :rolleyes2: This is the reality, this is experienced, this is not opinion, bla bla.
I just want a handsome sex god who is absolutely faithful to me and loves me more than anything or anyone else in the world. Is that too much to ask? :P Preferably doesnt drink or do drugs or gamble. Oh and also must have opinion on things.And............owns a self propelled vaccum cleaner?
And............owns a self propelled vaccum cleaner?scoooooooooooooobaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
she may be having sex with him, but she wont have his babies or make any kind of serious relationship with him, i bet. When you look for a relationship you look for one set of things. When you look for fun, you look for something differentYou bet but
PUAs How-tos failed him. No?
You bet butIf you have sex with a known a-hole, im prtty sure you realize 100% that its for fun, cuz who wants to have a relationship with an a-hole? Only masochists maybe. Why do you deny that both men and women have lower standars when it comes for fun looking, compared to very high standards for someone they 'd marry or be in a long relationship? Sure some people will settle for low standards even there. But in general people have very high standards for someone to be in relationship with, compared to someone to bang for one night. Im pretty sure when a man or woman looks for fun all they need, generally, is an agreeable pretty body that will sleep with them immediately. Doesnt matter if he/she is stupid like a cork (russian expression) or cheats on every partner they have, cuz your not in relationship with htem and your not planning to be, and if offered the possiblity, would most likely refuse being in relationship with these people, but for purely fun purposes they are a great choice maybe. So if a woman says she needs a guy like this and that, and then goes off to sleep with an a-hole, it doesnt meant she doesnt know what she wants. I do not see any contradiction at all. It just means, like for all of us, that she uses different standards depending on a purpose she has for this person.
a lot of people don't CHOICE what they really need. A lot of people don't know by advance if it will be for fun or not.
You bet butImagine this: You are looking for a fun night, so you set up a date with this drop dead gorgeous woman, but turns out that she is a bit stupid, or likes screaming at puppies and waitresses. But oh my good, look at her body, its to die for?!?! Will that hinder your purpose to sleep with her? Probably not. But you wouldnt have a relationship with her, would you?
a lot of people don't CHOICE what they really need. A lot of people don't know by advance if it will be for fun or not.
The problem is that you presuppose she knows that the guy is the f**cker guy of the evening. You presuppose he is a low value guy, BECAUSE he has a lot of success with girls and get laid often ? You are wrong.if she has a GF who was with this guy for 3 years, she definitely knows if hes an a-hole, moreover, she knows a lot more about him than you do. You never know, maybe for the 3 years all she heard is how great he is in bed, and how awful a person he is? So why not get laid, if you hear for 3 yrs of his godly skills? Does that mean shes gonna try to be in a relationship with him? Not at all. Or maybe for 3 years she heard how awesome he is, and all the cool romantic stuff he does, and that he cheats. Maybe then she would go for a relationship, hoping she is awesome enough that he wont cheat? Possibilities are endless, and none of them show that she, like you ortrayed, is full of it. Maybe she is hoping he will get better, or maybe shes with him just for fun, who knows?
For she, and for a lot of women, he is a valuable guy.
And this sort of women can spend many years loving this sort of man or trying to get his love (and to go farther i know one of her GF who stayed three years with him).
The problem is that you presuppose she knows that the guy is the f**cker guy of the evening. You presuppose he is a low value guy, BECAUSE he has a lot of success with girls and get laid often ? You are wrong.And if she doesnt know hes an a-hole while in fact he is, then what was the purpose of your story, how she told you she wants this and that, and then went to have sex with the opposite? Whats the purpose of the story if she simply doesnt know?
For she, and for a lot of women, he is a valuable guy.
And this sort of women can spend many years loving this sort of man or trying to get his love (and to go farther i know one of her GF who stayed three years with him).
if she has a GF who was with this guy for 3 years, she definitely knows if hes an a-hole, moreover, she knows a lot more about him than you do. You never know, maybe for the 3 years all she heard is how great he is in bed, and how awful a person he is? So why not get laid, if you hear for 3 yrs of his godly skills? Does that mean shes gonna try to be in a relationship with him? Not at all. Or maybe for 3 years she heard how awesome he is, and all the cool romantic stuff he does, and that he cheats. Maybe then she would go for a relationship, hoping she is awesome enough that he wont cheat? Possibilities are endless, and none of them show that she, like you ortrayed, is full of it. Maybe she is hoping he will get better, or maybe shes with him just for fun, who knows?
"I know perfectly he and she and all about their three years relation, but it's out of the topic.again, you are making some assumptions that she wants something different than what she stated based solely on her going off to have sex with some guy. My point is, she may have sex with him once or twice or 100 times, doesnt mean he is relationship material, just means she wants fun.
The summarize of the section is here :
Common sense seems to tell you that. But take everything you hear with caution. Sometimes what a women says is totally diffirent from what she actually wants. This all has to do with emotions, feelings, fairy tales, ect..... you know.... normal women....compared to reality.
Keep this in the back of your head.
Never take relationship advice about dating women from women." SMS60
GQ, if you could figure out and write down what made it so easy for you to attract women you could make millions. Seriously, you should see what these former geek PUAs charge for their training camps!
again, you are making some assumptions that she wants something different than what she stated based solely on her going off to have sex with some guy. My point is, she may have sex with him once or twice or 100 times, doesnt mean he is relationship material, just means she wants fun.Aloe please, and without offence you.
Aloe, are we taking about sex? We have a very good report on that. Doo you want to tell me everything about my sex life?Im talking about this post by Patagonie
I miss my sex, But I miss my darling more.
Typical AW story, i have tons of sort of this story.
We are sixty persons to have a dinner and disco. Near to me, all along the dinner a female in her mid thirty was explaining about what she want for her romance : "oh i need a gentle, kind guy. I'm a real serious women and i want only serious relations, faithfulness is important, i need time to know people + many minutes of BS.
Two hours after she began to dance with the well known f**cker of the party. Four hours after she was in the car of the guy car in the car park all lights off (she already had the driving licence for your information). Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cool Roll Eyes This is the reality, this is experienced, this is not opinion, bla bla.
If she sees a super sexy guy, albeit a known a-hole, she may go and have sex with him for fun, but she wont be planning a relationship with him for sure, because he lacks the qualities she looks for and needs.
Aloe please, and without offence you.Now scroll up to your original post, and show me where this is stated in it? Its not. If you want to tell some kind of story to support your opinion, then at least make it more understandable than you did the first time around. What relation are you talking about anyway? You said her GF was in relationship with the guy. Nothing of her being in any relationships was ever mentioned.
This girl was absolutely in love with him and lost three years of her life in a non well balanced relation, all people around her shaking their heads hoping that she jettison him as soon as possible. And at bed he was not a good one. Ok ? May we stop.
Diverboy,Dont know about your approach to marriage, but your approach to finding a wife was business like, i think. The fact that she had to be 176 cm or higher (or how many exactly was it?) and not 5 mm shorter and not 100 gramms heavier than your desired weight (to the point where you actually put your future wife on the scale to verify her words about her weight) definitely sounds odd. But as somebody said, different strokes for different folks :P
I am happily married for a longtime. Your just mad as I called you out on your beatdown in Russia and that you have failed several times. I think your reading comprehension is not very good and I know English is not your first language.
Where do I say this is a business deal? Anyone that thinks marriage is a business deal will fail. Regarding Egypt where did this come from?
Have fun in Kiev and hopefully this one works out for you. But from your wording you already feel she is out of your league which is not a good start. Its your wording and not mine. I probably know this girl as well if she lives in Kiev.
As an aside: Are you serious they actually have 'training camps' for these?
It's too rigid, too structured, too confining, and hardly 'reactionary'.
Fact that she had sex with the guy, no matter how many times, proves nothing.
I agree, but I've also seen these tactics work. ::)
Im saying, just because she had sex with him, which could have been for a multitude of reasons, does not mean she wants something other than what she stated.
Now if she went and had a relationship with the guy that was opposite to what she described, and she knew he isnt what she described, and she persisted to remain in the relationship for years and years, that would be proof that she wants something other than she described, and NOT that she went and had sex with someone.
SO remember each big love story begins by one night in a bed (if you prefer in the forest or in a garage it's your problem)
Reading this thread, this is my question: would you actually want to marry any of the women on whom these tactics will work?
Would you really want to marry the dysfunctional 30+ woman bent on banging the bad boys out back?
Much of what these PUAs teach are self-improvement tactics (get in shape, dress better, learn to be comfortable in crowds, learn to relax around women).
I like first dates that stretch on forever and if a girl calls me, I answer. The girls that get the disinterested treatment from me, I'm not interested in.
Seriously, 'game' attracts all kinds of women, not just the bad boy banging type. It's mostly about improving yourself and your social skills. Nothing wrong with that.
I like first dates that stretch on forever and if a girl calls me, I answer. The girls that get the disinterested treatment from me, I'm not interested in.
I'll add this though.
Part of 'playing disinterested' is in order to reverse coming across as desperate. The advice is geared towards guys that show too much interest of the type that sends the message "I am desperate to get you in bed, please please please", such as showering a girl with gifts or meaningless compliments or in general trying too hard.
oh, all these games... (http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj130/Olga_AH/Smiles/4-1.gif)
(http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj130/Olga_AH/Smiles/451.gif) (http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj130/Olga_AH/Smiles/42.gif) (http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj130/Olga_AH/Smiles/40.gif) (http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj130/Olga_AH/Smiles/smile239.gif) (http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj130/Olga_AH/Smiles/smile187.gif)
Great to be a woman with no testosterone problems; isn't it Olga?
I know your shorter than 176cm.What does my height have to do with anything? lol That was so out of the blue
Much of what these PUAs teach are self-improvement tactics (get in shape, dress better, learn to be comfortable in crowds, learn to relax around women).
Many tactics are things I normally do or not do. (Don't try to impress with material things, be playful and tease, blah blah blah). Would I marry a woman that falls for these? Yup. I have no choice!
Some tactics are geared towards creating initial tension (or attraction) with women who will chase you instead of you chasing them. (Like not responding to an SMS).
In my opinion, CHARM goes a long way, and charm is the opposite of tension. Charm is the art of helping women relax, feel even better about themselves, and find something interesting about the man.
Hopefully the polishing process and discussion that is happening on various threads on this forum will lead closer to that confidence and charm so that the plan--the frame can be. "I will be myself. Let the consequences be what they will be." There is a whole lot of attractiveness in that alone.
Day 1: I walk down the street. I fall into a deep hole. It takes me a long time to climb out.
Day 2: I walk down the street. I fall into the hole. I climb out.
Day 3: I walk down the street. I see the hole but I fall in anyway. I climb out.
Day 4: I walk down the street. I walk around the hole.
Day 5: I walk down another street.
But anyway, the fact you authored a very popular and worthy thread, would you like to share some final thoughts about your trip with everyone?
One of the things I’ve found is that when I’m in Russia, the girl I want to chase is the one that turns me on the most.
However, after I return to the United States the girl I want to chase is the one that was just a pleasure to be with.
Writing a trip report is distracting. ....Since writing a good trip report was a goal of my trip I’m glad I did it and I’m glad that the report was received well by most of the readers… but I don’t know if I’d do another trip report like this.
I had a fun time with her on our first date, yet she called me in the afternoon the next day and expected me to drop all my other plans (and be rude to those other people) just because she called? And then she’s going to be snotty just because I didn’t go along with it?
Is that the request of a quality girl or a self-entitled bitch?
Certainly, as I spent more time with Anna I cleared more time for her, and toward the end a few days in a row, and even proposed VO at our last meeting. I think that would have been a reasonable expectation for her. But after the first date?
I also believe that you have to be careful not to step into a girl’s frame too quickly: it demonstrates low value.
Some here have suggested is that the problem is that I didn’t step into her frame: if I had stepped into her frame on day 2 when she called me, it all would have worked out better. I disagree: I think that would have just made me look weak. My mistake was not demonstrating high enough value that she was willing to step into my frame.
It’s the man’s job to be a little bit colder and have a stronger frame.
OK, you got it. And if nothing else, I can certainly agree that I authored a very popular thread, having reached first place among trip reports for the number of responses and second place for the number of views.
I went to Russia alone and the only professionals I enlisted were to provide a flat and register my visa. (I speak Russian fluently; a guy who didn't would need a full-time interpreter to do what I did.)
Anna definitely had some “high-maintenance” aspects to her personality that probably would have driven me crazy with time. If I had been able to date her on an “uncompressed” time scale it’s possible that things would have evolved differently.
One of the things that I’ve found on my last two visit-many trips to the FSU is that the compressed time schedule doesn’t work in your favor. Compressing two months worth of dates into two weeks is just a recipe for things to not go right.
Then she wrote me back and said I didn’t understand her: what she wanted was me to sponsor her for a K1 visa.
Evgenia... wasn’t quite as cute as the other girls and was a little short for me.
Galina .... has a great job and some ambition, but she was also soft, cute, and sweet. I had great chemistry with her.
It’s getting late for me, so perhaps I’ll write what happened next another time…
your report along with another poster from another site made enough of an impression on me to give the FSU another try, this time using Mamba, when I was ready to end the adventure. The end result now, two years and 12 visits later (here and there with the same lady) is a wondering relationship with a great lady.
I think I recall Anna and thought she had possibilities. "Definitely" is a strong word especially in contrast with your correct description that "compressed time dating" is not good for seeking clarity. Nevertheless, compressed time dating should suffice for indicating whether a followup trip is promising and thus justified, and if so, with whom. Based on Anna's own merits and in comparison with others, you were not feeling it. So, yes, "Next!."Some of the commentary on this thread has said that if I hadn’t been such a dickhead I would have had a chance with her. I’ll concede, perhaps there is a point in there. I have a weakness, which is this: my attitude toward dating is calibrated to the grrrrls of Silicon Valley. In Silicon Valley, being “beta” doesn’t get you anything but your right hand. If you’re making $100K, $200K, $300K, $400K, it doesn’t matter. Silicon Valley is like that: if you ended up here for whatever reason, you have the skills to make six figures. I’ve been reading in the news and places that there’s some kind of a bad economy going on or something, but I haven’t noticed at all. I used to be polite and chat with headhunters on the phone and politely say “thanks, but not thanks” in response to their emails. But now I don’t respond to their emails. When they call me on the phone I tell them to fuck off and take their middle-management job at Qualcomm or Apple or Google or Facebook or Groupon or wherever and go shove it up their ass: it’s not worth my time to go interview for it. The economy here in Silicon Valley is just fine, thank you very much.
Evgenia (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=11863.msg233951#msg233951 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=11863.msg233951#msg233951)) was a real sweetheart. I met her twice and we had a really great time together. She sent me lots of pictures and we wrote for awhile. As I write this, I’m recalling all of the pictures she sent me in cute outfits from when she went to Sicily. Eventually the letter writing fizzled out and she didn’t respond to one of my letters. I didn’t follow up. Despite our chemistry and the fun we seem to have together, I just felt like she wasn’t a good match for me. She wasn’t quite as cute as the other girls and was a little short for me. She occasionally made comments in person and by phone expressing surprise that a guy like me was single. I think my “dating market value” was higher than hers and she also thought so, but I just so thoroughly enjoyed her company that I pursued her anyway. On some level I knew I wasn’t going to pursue it, and I think she sensed it, so she eventually stopped writing when I took no action.
Indifference is not a good starting point. Which begs the question why did you not stop this sooner?
Your phrase "one of the more interesting girls" is contradictory in my mind with your other phrase "not enough into her."Silicon Valley is perhaps the most vicious and lopsided dating scene you can participate in without going to Alaska. Transitioning from dating in Silicon Valley to dating in the FSU is the most refreshing breath of fresh air a man can breathe. Yet, I calibrate quickly. I can’t tell you how many girls I’ve met in Russia that I really liked, who were great catches, who would have been decent wives and mothers, but yet I threw them back into the ocean for the other fishermen.
In the FSU most women satisfied my "physical attraction" criterion. What I found elusive was a RW who was really interesting other than the novelty.
Is this another way of saying there are few desirable game fish in the Silicon Valley pond? If she were in Silicon Valley, would you be just dating her, or would you be thinking about the possibility of a LT relationship?
Or because you have made such a long trip, you want a bigger game fish, and such are present in numbers in the Novosibirsk pond?
I’ll concede that perhaps I/O and others who allege that I ‘overgamed’ Anna may have a point.
It’s funny that you say this, because you said something on a related theme about another girl named Polia I met.Silicon Valley is perhaps the most vicious and lopsided dating scene you can participate in without going to Alaska. Transitioning from dating in Silicon Valley to dating in the FSU is the most refreshing breath of fresh air a man can breathe. Yet, I calibrate quickly. I can’t tell you how many girls I’ve met in Russia that I really liked, who were great catches, who would have been decent wives and mothers, but yet I threw them back into the ocean for the other fishermen.
Polina, who you commented on in that post, was definitely in that category. I’ve met many others. They were a refreshing change from the girls of Silicon Valley, yet I threw them back anyways. Sustaining a relationship across twelve or fourteen time zones is a big hurdle.
I really wanted to like Evgenia, which is why I went on a second date with here in Novosibirsk and continued to write her. Russians are usually a bit standoffish when they meet someone the first time; but Evgenia was friendly right off the bat. I just had such a fun date with her that I wanted it to continue. Yet, when I returned to the United States my cold-hearted analytical personality set in: I knew that there wasn’t enough there to continue. Yet, if she had lived in Silicon Valley I would have continued to date her. Oh, the psychological contradictions I have!
At some point in these journeys the man does have to look in the mirror and question the man he finds there IMO
If you’re making $100K, $200K, $300K, $400K, it doesn’t matter. Silicon Valley is like that: if you ended up here for whatever reason, you have the skills to make six figures. I’ve been reading in the news and places that there’s some kind of a bad economy going on or something, but I haven’t noticed at all. I used to be polite and chat with headhunters on the phone and politely say “thanks, but not thanks” in response to their emails. But now I don’t respond to their emails. When they call me on the phone I tell them to fuck off and take their middle-management job at Qualcomm or Apple or Google or Facebook or Groupon or wherever and go shove it up their ass: it’s not worth my time to go interview for it. The economy here in Silicon Valley is just fine, thank you very much.
I am not sure what I/O said, but that was my point. Playing games of the PUA or other varieties IMHO leads nowhere if the goal is to find a decent woman in Russia to marry.
Me thinks that the word empathy has some bearing here somewhere.:offtopic:
Secondly, many people in the U.S. and around the world lack the education and skills required to participate in the great new companies coming out of the software revolution. This is a tragedy since every company I work with is absolutely starved for talent. Qualified software engineers, managers, marketers and salespeople in Silicon Valley can rack up dozens of high-paying, high-upside job offers any time they want, while national unemployment and underemployment is sky high. This problem is even worse than it looks because many workers in existing industries will be stranded on the wrong side of software-based disruption and may never be able to work in their fields again. There's no way through this problem other than education, and we have a long way to go.On the other hand, when Wal-Mart opens a new store the lines just to apply for a minimum-wage (or near minimum wage) job, the line wraps around the building. They believe that the trends of the modern world have left them no choice but to vote for socialist policies. So, they’re voting their own self-interest.
The hunt for perfection in a person is a misnomer, man or woman… Kind of like Groucho Marx stated, "I wouldn't belong to any club that would have me as a member"
In a way I would not blame TBB as the reason we most all travel (to potentially upgrade on our local options), can lead to a serious case of the "kid in a candy store" syndrome. So when faced with near unlimited choices, you try to find the best for you because that's the reason why you're going through all the extra effort.
If [you would write about what happened next], I would be grateful.
FP, it could also be that TwoBit just hasn't fallen in love yet. Before I can assign him the status of one who's not willing or able to pull the trigger, I've got to read more...
Anyways, it’s time for me to go get some sleep… and I promise in my next post I’ll write something about what happened with Galina in Paris. Au revoir!
A woman is like your shadow: run from her, and she follows; chase her, and she flees.
....While I was in Paris, I considered writing a trip report. I quickly realized that the content was just too personal for me to write on the internet. Without really expressing the undertone of our developing relationship, it really wouldn’t be that interesting. “We went to the Louve. Then we went to some other museums. We saw the Eiffel Tower. We took a cruise on the Siene. We saw some parks. We went to the opera and the symphony. The end.”...
After I finally let go of Galina at the airport and disappeared behind passport control, I was overwhelmed with a sense of sadness. We sent text messages back and forth while I was at the gate. (Her flight was scheduled three hours after mine). As my flight home lifted off, I already missed her and I knew I would have to see her again…
It really made me think, because it’s the opposite of my approach to dating in Silicon Valley. I won’t even take a girl out to dinner until after she’s slept with me. You can’t show even one bit of beta or you’re done. Yet, at this point I hadn’t been intimate with Galina, yet I’ve put up about $1100. Dating overseas changes everything, and requires different behavior. As they say in cards: “any bet worth making is worth doubling down on.”
While I was in Paris, I considered writing a trip report. I quickly realized that the content was just too personal for me to write on the internet. Without really expressing the undertone of our developing relationship, it really wouldn’t be that interesting. “We went to the Louve. Then we went to some other museums. We saw the Eiffel Tower. We took a cruise on the Siene. We saw some parks. We went to the opera and the symphony. The end.”
After I finally let go of Galina at the airport and disappeared behind passport control, I was overwhelmed with a sense of sadness. We sent text messages back and forth while I was at the gate. (Her flight was scheduled three hours after mine). As my flight home lifted off, I already missed her and I knew I would have to see her again…
I’ll admit that I’ve casually cut loose a number of women that would have made great wives and some that really wanted to catch me. Whoever wrote “Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned” was right!
It really made me think, because it’s the opposite of my approach to dating in Silicon Valley. I won’t even take a girl out to dinner until after she’s slept with me. You can’t show even one bit of beta or you’re done.
she said that there are a lot of men who talk but few act: when I started to write her more seriously and actually paid for the tickets and visa she knew I was serious
The FSU could have the same monikor as Missouri.
*show me*
I can't think of all the times i've heard(in a good way):
*I din't ) believe you actually _________(insert any random positive normal action)*
It seems talk is incredibly inexpensive there,
and the phrase actions speak louder than words...
taken far more to heart.
Thanks for keeping us posted. Everything sounds perfect.Few french people are capable to have a fluent conversation in english. Additionnaly, in crowned places, (In Paris in particular but also in south coast and mountain skiing stations) they are rude and ignore you as customer, even when you are french. Some desserves to be kicked in the ass. Avoid to pay them in ready money as possible. Don't help them to hide the money.
Isn't taking a risk based on your feelings far better than trying to have an man vs. woman advantage! To be honest I believe a real man enjoys taking such risks regardless of what the "dating guidelines" may say. It feels like old school when men were gentlemen. Then there is of concept of salary disparity.
Where is the: I attempted to speak French when ordering at a restaurant, and the waiter sneered at me. At a club I saw a Parisian singing under his breath the English words of the music, so I introduced myself and he made an ugly face at me. We were shopping in a crowded store and I asked an employee a question about some shoes, and she ignored me as if I had said nothing.
Those emotions are very real and indicative of something bigger. Nice, huh!
Few french people are capable to have a fluent conversation in english. Additionnaly, in crowned places, (In Paris in particular but also in south coast and mountain skiing stations) they are rude and ignore you as customer, even when you are french. Some desserves to be kicked in the ass. Avoid to pay them in ready money as possible. Don't help them to hide the money.
I remember Paris as a city covered with dog feces and rude people, however the further I got away from Paris the friendlier the people were.
My cousin is in America and married to a French man. I asked him why the French in Paris were so rude. He then asked me if I like New Yorkers and I replied "not much". He them said French citizens don't like Parisians either. He offered that maybe this is true in most countries - that people don't like the others in the big famous places.
I find this true in Russia. They are't very fond of Moscow.
So what happened? Did he end up with Galina permanently in the end?
Trenchcoat asked in another thread:
My relationship with Galina continued: somehow, she managed to get a B1 visitor visa to the United States, and she came and visited me and I also made a couple of trips back to Novosibirsk to be with her. I had some reservations about the relationship and felt like we needed more face time together and didn't want to feel rushed by the 90-day limit of the K1 visa.
I eventually took an extended unpaid leave of absence from my job in Silicon Valley in and moved to Novosibirsk and got a long-term visa by enrolling in a long-term Russian study program. My Russian really improved a lot.
Unfortunately, my relationship with Galina did not work out. But in some respect, I considered it a success that I got an answer to the question of the relationship. When I first moved to Novosibirsk, I felt certain that we would get married, and was distraught when our relationship came unglued quickly. The reasons are complicated: I made some mistakes in the relationship, and she did too. After some time, we decided to be friends again and kept in loose contact.
Looking back, I consider my original trip a success. I wanted to meet a lot of women and see if a relationship would evolve from those. A relationship did evolve, so I got what I was seeking.
I remained in Russia for a while after we split up. I made a new circle of friends and really enjoyed my life. I had some really crazy experiences in Russia: I think if I wrote about some of them, people on this forum would say I was full of BS. And probably, telling the details would make some of the participants identifiable in real life, so I will keep silent. But absolutely insane stuff really happened! Russia is a crazy place.
I am now in a relationship with another RW living in a third country (not the USA and not Russia).
Russia is a crazy place.