Novosibirsk Doesn't Believe in Tears: TwoBit's Sixteen Days In Novosibirsk

[Jooky]

I've been in FSU nightclubs before but the club here was the most lopsided ratio I've ever seen in my life in a nightclub.

I believe it! What club did you go to?

There's one club I went to, just once, that was more like the typical US / European scene. Lots of dudes going out of their way to impress. I heard a lot of Spanish, French and German conversations so maybe it's where ex-pats go when they miss how hard it is to pick up women back home. I didn't get it. I'll stick to the 80 to 5 ratio.

[TwoBitBandit]

I believe it! What club did you go to?

There's one club I went to, just once, that was more like the typical US / European scene. Lots of dudes going out of their way to impress. I heard a lot of Spanish, French and German conversations so maybe it's where ex-pats go when they miss how hard it is to pick up women back home. I didn't get it. I'll stick to the 80 to 5 ratio.

It was a pretty new club according to Anna.  I think it was called "prava" or "pravda".  I had to pay 300 roubles to get in but Anna was free.

[brad5959]

PUA = Pick-up artist
DLV = Display Lower Value
DHV = Display Higher Value
IOI = Indicator of interest
LSE  = Low self-esteem

http://www.fastseduction.com/acronyms.shtml

The AFC thinks he's a PUA but really he's into MM and ZNS!

[Jooky]

Right near Pl. Lenina? I think I know the place.

One thing I noticed is that the guys tend to show up really late. They get smashed somewhere cheaper where they don't need to buy girls drinks, then hit the clubs at 3 or 4 in the morning when they're more likely to find the wasted easy chick stragglers and all night partiers.  

[TwoBitBandit]

Right near Pl. Lenina? I think I know the place.

One thing I noticed is that the guys tend to show up really late. They get smashed somewhere cheaper where they don't need to buy girls drinks, then hit the clubs at 3 or 4 in the morning when they're more likely to find the wasted easy chick stragglers and all night partiers.  

I have no idea where we were.  I don't think it was near Pl. Lenina because we walked there from some other metro station besides the one at Pl. Lenina.  When we left the club I took Anna home in a taxi (she lives somewhere on the outskirts of town) and then came back to the center in the taxi.  It was early (just before midnight) when we left the club, which is coincident with your observations.

[Sculpto]

Right near Pl. Lenina? I think I know the place.

One thing I noticed is that the guys tend to show up really late. They get smashed somewhere cheaper where they don't need to buy girls drinks, then hit the clubs at 3 or 4 in the morning when they're more likely to find the wasted easy chick stragglers and all night partiers.  

Yeah I noticed that also.  Early on the ratio was crazy.. later very buzzed and aggressive guys would show up.. but most of the girls just ignored them and kept dancing alone in front of mirrors..  whats with the mirror thing anyway?

[Patagonie]

It's why, in general, even in the AW field, it's better to come early.

[TwoBitBandit]

Day 14: Friday, July 9:

The plan for today is this: I have a “date option” to go to Academgorodok in the early afternoon and meet Lubov (new girl).  I told her I’d contact her.  Then, I’m going to meet Galina later on at an undisclosed time.

The situation with Lubov is similar to the one to the girl a few days ago whose date I didn’t want to discuss.  My phone conversations and SMS conversations with her have given me a weird feeling: I think she’s onto the fact that I’m juggling lots of girls.  Plus, like the other girl, I’ve been stringing her out for quite a while.

When I wake up, it’s raining.  I’m thinking about how unlikely the prospects are here with this particular girl and how much effort it will be.  I have a profile on match, and occasionally I get messages from girls in San Francisco or in Santa Cruz who want to meet me.  And I think, “why bother unless it is really compelling?”  For today’s date I have a feeling that I’ll spend a frustrating time getting there, the date will be awful, and it will be a pain to get back.

The other option is “Atlas Shrugged,” the famous novel by Ayn Rand.  I have always wanted to read it and the topic of the book seems apropos for the state of the world today.  (If I understand the theme correctly, the book is about what might happen if all of the productive members of society just withdrew from participating.  It seems apropos because the current state of the world is giving less and less incentives to be productive and increasingly more incentives to just screw off and milk the system.)  I’ve made most of my progress on great books while on vacation, but on this trip I haven’t even cracked the cover of this particular book.  It’s hard to read literature at home because it requires some alertness and the ability to dig in for at least a couple hours at a time.  It’s hard to read a serious book by using the half-hour before bed every night.

So, I think about the two options.  (a) Lubov (b) Atlas Shrugged.  Option (b) it is!  I send Lubov and SMS telling her I can’t meet her and wishing her luck in her search.  Soon, she sends me an SMS that says “OK, I also wish you luck in life and love.”  About fifteen minutes later she sends a second SMS that says, “You’re all the same funny.” (following a theme in a previous SMS.)  That message had a little animated cartoon attached with a boy and his dog both laughing.  Three or four minutes later she writes another message “And anyways, shove off back to your fat chicks in America.”  (вообще отваливай обратно к своим толстухам.)  I had to ask for help with the verb отваливать from a professional translator over skype, who suggested I might have really pissed off this girl.  I didn’t mind her use of the word отваливать, but the comment about American fat chicks was just over the top.  I wouldn’t wish American fat chicks (or “warpigs” as some of my friends and I call them) on my worst enemy.  C’mon, no man deserves that punishment!

Anyways, I think I dodged a bullet.  I would have spent a lot of time getting to Academgorodok, finding my way around in the rain, finding this girl, sitting in a café for forty minutes with a ticked-off and antagonistic girl, then a lot of time getting back in time for my later date.  As I suggested in my earlier exchange with I/O, I overplayed my hand with these two girls and got burned for it.  Live and learn.  (There’s even an equivalent expression in Russian: Век живи — век учись: a century to live, a century to learn.)  No worries, I start digging into Atlas Shrugged.

About an hour later Galina writes me an SMS canceling today’s date and proposing we meet tomorrow, which was totally unexpected.  We had such a great first date.  Perhaps I scared her off a little bit, or perhaps she has a boyfriend, or perhaps she’s not as much into me as I think.  Who knows?  My rule of thumb about girls canceling dates is this: if she cancels and proposes another time, she wants to meet you.  If she cancels and doesn’t propose another time, she’s telling you to get lost. I liked Galina a lot, so I agree to meet her tomorrow.  It’s unfortunate since now my whole calendar today is empty.

I spend an hour chatting up the B list for a date tonight, and end up getting a date for 9 pm with Polina.  I spend the day reading and I took a couple of walks between rains.  At 8:50 right after I walk out my flat door she reschedules for 9:30, and then she’s about fifteen minutes late.  Anyway, she’s cute.  She didn’t indicate her height on her profile and she’s quite short, perhaps 5’1”.  I haven’t eaten much today so I suggest we go get some sushi and take her to the restaurant.

Polina works as the head accountant at an industrial tools company in Novosibirsk.  She’s in love with her job: it sounds like she’s been there a long time during a period when the company has been very successful, so she’s enjoying it.  It sounds like she’s working seven days a week and hasn’t taken a single day off in a couple of months…which I find sort of strange.  Yet, it’s refreshing to find a Russian girl who likes her job so much: many of them dislike or hate their jobs.  We have some interesting discussions about the industry her company serves and how they’re starting to compete successfully with European and Japanese companies making similar sorts of products. This girl doesn’t really have any hobbies besides work and that’s all she can talk about.  The manner in which she speaks is sort of masculine: she reminds me a little bit of Silicon Valley career girls.

If this girl was in Silicon Valley I’d be all over her.  And, she’s one of the more interesting girls that I’ve met while I’ve been here.  However, I’m just not enough into her to want to chase her that much even though I thoroughly enjoyed my time with her.  As we were walking back to the metro station, she invited me to her work on Monday to see the factory and have lunch in their café which serves a lot of traditional Russian food.  That sounds like it would be interesting and fun, but I’m leaving early Monday morning so I have to decline.

The plan for tomorrow is to meet Galina in the early evening.  I have a possible date tomorrow during the day with a new girl but it isn’t definite.

[BillyB]

I've got a thread running for 2 months now with much less pages and posts and people wonder where I get the time to post since I'm dating local ladies but damn TwoBit, you are on a trip and still have time to write so much.

Thanks for writing this but I suggest postponing this trip report until you come back. So what if you can't remember everything. You owe us nothing and owe yourself to get the most out of this trip. Thinking and writing a lot can make you lose focus and make you tired. Not good when you're on dates. Also you can use free time to get phone numbers from the ladies on the street or restaurant. It's easy even if the ladies on the street never intended to meet a foreign guy through the internet. The ideal lady for you may not be on your A or B list and you are the one to blame if she passes you by on the street because you are too focused thinking how to write your next post.

[Kuna]

I've got a thread running for 2 months now with much less pages and posts and people wonder where I get the time to post since I'm dating local ladies but damn TwoBit, you are on a trip and still have time to write so much.

Thanks for writing this but I suggest postponing this trip report until you come back. So what if you can't remember everything. You owe us nothing and owe yourself to get the most out of this trip. Thinking and writing a lot can make you lose focus and make you tired. Not good when you're on dates. Also you can use free time to get phone numbers from the ladies on the street or restaurant. It's easy even if the ladies on the street never intended to meet a foreign guy through the internet. The ideal lady for you may not be on your A or B list and you are the one to blame if she passes you by on the street because you are too focused thinking how to write your next post.

Different strokes for different folks Billy.

I wrote a "running TR" on my first trip and barely had the motivation to write one at all on my second trip.

TBB's writing seems to be going fine, and is a good read.  Whether it helps or hinders his search is up to him.

I wish more men would write such details TR's.  I don't agree with everything he is doing,  but I really appreciate the effort he's put into the TR>

(more photos would be nice....  not of women... place,  etc wold be fine).

[TwoBitBandit]

Thanks for writing this but I suggest postponing this trip report until you come back. So what if you can't remember everything. You owe us nothing and owe yourself to get the most out of this trip. Thinking and writing a lot can make you lose focus and make you tired.

To the contrary, I do feel I owe something to this community.  My goal in this trip report is to be brutally honest in accounting for what happens just to illustrate the pitfalls of this adventure and what to do and what not to do.  This community has helped me tremendously in my own search and I feel compelled to give something back.  I've certainly made good and bad decisions in this trip, and perhaps writing my own steps can allow someone else follow a similar path and not make similar mistake. I read trip reports by others when I was starting out and they were instrumental in understand how this process works.

There was a point in my life in my early twenties when I was trying to make sense of life.  A good friend of mine introduced me to some books on Zen Buddhism, and I found them insightful and helpful for living my life.  One of the books I read was written by Cheri Huber, who runs a Zen center in Mountain View, California.  In one of her books, she wrote "I always wanted to be a writer, but until I found Zen I had nothing to write about."  And so now I feel inspiried to write a trip report.  It's as if I've finally found something that is worth writing and is worthy of being read by others so that it can help them on their quest.

Strangely, I've also helped writing has forced me to be more honest with myself about what I'm doing.  If I dropped the ball and I'm the only one that saw it, then perhaps I can rationalize it away.  Perhaps I didn't really drop it, and it didn't really fall, or perhaps it doesn't count.  If I write it down, that forces me to be slightly more honest with myself.  It's hard to write, "no, I didn't really drop the ball" because then I'm taking that lie to myself to another level: now I'm lying to a community of people.  I have to really want to be intellectually dishonest to want to do that.

That being said, I don't know if I'll write a trip report again or not.  Yet, this time I made the decision to do it, and I'm doing it.  If it means I dropped some opportunities on the floor, then that's what I did.  You don't have to take a swing at every single ball or hit every single ball to be successful.  Persistence is what brings results... as they say in Russian: вода камень точит.

[TwoBitBandit]

Right near Pl. Lenina? I think I know the place

A funny thing happened today: I was on the other side of the river at Pl. Karl Marks, and I recognized exactly where Anna and I were right before we walked to the club.  I also remember crossing the river with Anna on the metro.  So, the club we went to was close to Pl. Karl Marks.

[TwoBitBandit]

Day 15: Friday, July 10:

I spent the morning trying to organize dates for tomorrow and possibly one this afternoon.  I never did find one for the afternoon, but the meeting with Galina is on for 5:00.  At around 3:00, she writes me and reschedules to 6:30.

I decide it’s time to get out of the flat and go check out some of the museums in town that I’ve wanted to take a look at before I leave.  I head to the Краеведческий музей which is pretty close to my flat and buy tickets.  There’s a mixture of exhibits.  One shows the history of the area, starting with bones from mammoths, then crude instruments made by primitive cultures on up to Soviet weapons and propaganda.  The next couple of exhibits are paintings, mostly from within the last twenty years.  In the basement there are two exhibits: one with a exhibit of dolls and Russian fashion, and the other is an exhibit of prehistoric bugs preserved in amber for 50-300 million years.

While I’m there, Galina cancels the meeting by SMS with an ambiguous excuse.  I tell her that I’d still like to meet her if she’s available later.  (What else am I going to do?)  I’m pretty annoyed with Galina since she’s cancelled two nights in a row.

After I leave the museum I decide to go to the park where Lena and I were last week and take pictures of the Soviet-era monuments.  By the time I get there it’s starting to sprinkle.  Soon it is absolutely pouring.  I brought my magic umbrella but its magic seems to be wearing off.  Fortunately, it still functions as a normal umbrella.  I head back.  Right as I get to the Karl Marks Square metro station, I get an SMS from Galina saying she’s done with what she was doing and can meet me. 

I end up meeting her about half an hour later at Lenin Square.  It’s about 8:30.  We kiss and walk to a café.  Under my skin, I’m annoyed with her for canceling yesterday’s meeting and being flakey today, but I know that’s not going to help anyone so I try hard to hide it.  We chat about culture differences, life in America, etc.  She asked some pointed questions about my life and why I’m not married, etc, but I did a good job of answering them.  (I’ve heard them so many times already.)  She’s leaving for Greece tomorrow and she’s also been to a couple of other places alone.  (Turkey and some other place I’ve never heard of near Greece.)   I also talk about some of the places that I’ve been.  This conversation is a little more serious than the last one.  This girl is quite introverted and guarded but keeps a friendly demeanor.  She’s quite intelligent.  She does a great job of figuring out what I want to express when I don’t know the right Russian word to say it.

I agree with Patagonie that all the solo trips are a yellow flag.  When an American girl does so much traveling alone it usually means that she’s sampling more than the local cuisine.

When we finish our salads and wine I suggest we go somewhere else and hang out for awhile, but she says she has a lot to do before she leaves.  (Although her flight isn’t until the evening and she isn’t working tomorrow.)  We hold hands until we get to the metro station, we kiss for a little while and she’s off.

I’m kind of surprised by the way she’s treated me since our first date which went so well.  My feeling is that if this girl was interested she’d find time.

Like I said before, I’m starting to see the big downside of this approach: in these girls’ minds these are just normal dates like they would have with any local guy, and they’re free to cancel or do whatever.  That’s the price to be paid, I suppose.  I’m the one that wants to date them, so I pay the price. 

I’m attracted to this girl and there’s a lot of things I like about her, but I don’t think she’s the girl for me…

[Jooky]

Like I said before, I’m starting to see the big downside of this approach: in these girls’ minds these are just normal dates like they would have with any local guy, and they’re free to cancel or do whatever.

How do the attitudes of girls you met through agencies versus those you met through mamba compare? Do you notice any major differences in how they approach a date or you? Did they ask different types of questions or treat you differently?

Any general differences would be interesting to note.

[Kuna]

Like I said before, I’m starting to see the big downside of this approach: in these girls’ minds these are just normal dates like they would have with any local guy, and they’re free to cancel or do whatever.  That’s the price to be paid, I suppose.  I’m the one that wants to date them, so I pay the price. 

TBB,  it may just be the dating approach that makes them "distant" but surely they realise you're there for a limited time... I would have thought they would make a greater effort to spend time with you.

Earlier I was wondering about the approach and thought that the amount of time and interest the girls are putting into you are probably aligned with how much time and effort they PERCEIVE you are putting into them.

The casual, relatively, short notice requests for dates surely much indicate to them that you are meeting others.

On My first trip I had 3 girls I definitely wanted to meet.  One was a TV journalist who was VERY interesting in early correspondance but as time went on the email became distant.  A day or two before I arrived she flatly asked if I was meeting others and gave an honest yet tactful answer.  When hitting Kiev I called her, we talked and agreed to meet, but she stuffed me around a few times so I just said goodbye...  I have no doubt if I were WOVO she would have been available but I sense that when the ladies know they are being "compared" they are less likely to give you much consideration.

This is all speculative though of course - probably best asking a RW.

Kuna

[SMS60]

TBB,  it may just be the dating approach that makes them "distant" but surely they realise you're there for a limited time... I would have thought they would make a greater effort to spend time with you.

I find this interesting. I guess my question is why?? Maybe an explanation would help me understand why they should put extra effort in meeting him.

TBB has no value to the ladies and its something which is hard to comprehend for some.

[Kuna]

I find this interesting. I guess my question is why?? Maybe an explanation would help me understand why they should put extra effort in meeting him.

TBB has no value to the ladies and its something which is hard to comprehend for some.

If they are on dating sites (social/local or international) one presumes they are interested in relationships.  If he is town for a short time,  I'd have thought they'd meet him, even just for the the novelty value if nothing else.

I think they suspect or know he is dating others/many and therefore very few, if any, have been necessarily interested.

The thing is,  the women with the type of character he SHOULD be trying to attract are probably the ones most offended at the impersonal approach.

Hats off to TBB for being so open about his TR though.

[Gator]

If this girl was in Silicon Valley I’d be all over her.  And, she’s one of the more interesting girls that I’ve met while I’ve been here.  However, I’m just not enough into her to want to chase her that much even though I thoroughly enjoyed my time with her.  

Interesting revelation.

Your phrase "one of the more interesting girls" is contradictory in my mind with your other phrase "not enough into her."   

In the FSU most women satisfied my "physical attraction" criterion.  What I found elusive was a RW who was really interesting other than the novelty.

Is this another way of saying there are few desirable game fish in the Silicon Valley pond?   If she were in Silicon Valley, would you be just dating her, or would you be thinking about the possibility of a LT relationship? 

Or because you have made such a long trip, you want a bigger game fish, and such are present in numbers in the Novosibirsk pond?

[EfiET]

If they are on dating sites (social/local or international) one presumes they are interested in relationships.  If he is town for a short time,  I'd have thought they'd meet him, even just for the the novelty value if nothing else.

I think they suspect or know he is dating others/many and therefore very few, if any, have been necessarily interested.

The thing is,  the women with the type of character he SHOULD be trying to attract are probably the ones most offended at the impersonal approach.

Hats off to TBB for being so open about his TR though.

That's a common mistake many people make ... assuming that every girl in FSU just dreams about dating a foreigner and thus would do anything to achieve that.

Reality is different though, most girls, at least on mamba.ru (which as far as I understand is were the OP met his dates) have lives where they live and are reasonably happy. They are not necessarily looking for somebody to "save" them. Yes there is the novelty factor, and yeah most girls would go out with a guy from xxxx for the heck of it, but assuming they will put their lives on hold just cause somebody decided to fly 6000 miles to go on dates is ... misguided.

[ML]

I agree with Patagonie that all the solo trips are a yellow flag.  When an American girl does so much traveling alone it usually means that she’s sampling more than the local cuisine.

Just a little bit of fine tuning here, perhaps.

In the vast majority of cases, the Russians/Ukrainians going to Turkey, Greece, Egypt, etc., are traveling on all inclusive tour packages.  These arrangements are much, much cheaper than separately securing flight, hotel, and meals.

As such, they are in some middle ground between traveling alone and traveling with a partner (male or female).  i.e. Typically they strike up acquaintences with persons within the travel group.  Thus, when they are out and about at the destination, it is usually in the company of other group members.

What practical effect this has on what the single woman experiences is up in the air.

On the one hand it could be assumed that she is somewhat restricted/protected compared to a woman who is truly on her own and is less likely to engage in a series of one night stands.

On the other hand, it could be argued that she is more likely to hook-up with one of her fellow group members.

So it is unclear what color flag such trips call for.  A bigger concern for the visiting man is that such trips invariably occur when they are in FSU to meet with the women.  Note: I am not referring to my own personal experience as I didn't have this problem on my trip.  But I have many friends and acquaintences who have encountered this.

[ML]

That's a common mistake many people make ... assuming that every girl in FSU just dreams about dating a foreigner and thus would do anything to achieve that.

Reality is different though, most girls, at least on mamba.ru (which as far as I understand is were the OP met his dates) have lives where they live and are reasonably happy. They are not necessarily looking for somebody to "save" them. Yes there is the novelty factor, and yeah most girls would go out with a guy from xxxx for the heck of it, but assuming they will put their lives on hold just cause somebody decided to fly 6000 miles to go on dates is ... misguided.

You are being a little too harsh on the men.

Of course the man needs to be realistic and not assume that the women are desperate and will change their entire life for the off chance that something will develop.

But, let's look at it a little objectively.

The men and women on dating/match sites are looking for somebody.
So now a somebody has contacted them and made a great effort to try to meet with them.
On the one hand, isn't it just common courtesy to give some consideration to fellow human beings?
And secondly, doesn't it make common sense that if you are on a dating site to try to meet someone, that you actually do meet with them when the opportunity arises (after some correspondence has transpired that indicates a mutual interest)?

Otherwise, wouldn't this be like sending in your resume to seek employment at a particular company, and then refuse to go in for an interview when they call you?

[SFandEE]

but most of the girls just ignored them and kept dancing alone in front of mirrors..  whats with the mirror thing anyway?

Beautiful people like to see beautiful people--mirrors help beautiful people see beautiful people!

I am sticking with that theory about mirrors in FSU nightclubs.

[Tim22]

Novosibirsk sounds like an easier place to hook up with a young lady that the main Russian cities of Moscow and St. Petersburg. Thanks for sharing this trip report!

[Daveman]

Novosibirsk sounds like an easier place to hook up with a young lady that the main Russian cities of Moscow and St. Petersburg. Thanks for sharing this trip report!

There seems to be somewhat of a difference in mentality between Moscow and Omsk (another Siberian city).  I don't know about St Pete or Novosibirsk specifically. The mentality of Siberia seems to be very similar to that in Crimea.  The people appear to be more laid back and open. At least those I encountered were.

Kinda similar to how someone living in NYC here in the states seems very standoffish at first while someone in say, Charlotte, NC seems more outgoing from the start.  People are people, but regional variations do seem to exist there.

[TwoBitBandit]

TBB,  it may just be the dating approach that makes them "distant" but surely they realise you're there for a limited time... I would have thought they would make a greater effort to spend time with you.

Earlier I was wondering about the approach and thought that the amount of time and interest the girls are putting into you are probably aligned with how much time and effort they PERCEIVE you are putting into them.

The casual, relatively, short notice requests for dates surely much indicate to them that you are meeting others.

I find this interesting. I guess my question is why?? Maybe an explanation would help me understand why they should put extra effort in meeting him.
TBB has no value to the ladies and its something which is hard to comprehend for some.

Let me elaborate.

First of all, out of all the dates I had only one girl outright flake.  One more didn’t come because she was out of town and miscalculated her return trip, but we were in contact the whole time and she wasn’t just standing me up.

My issues are about these cases:
Case 1: I met the girl, I connected with the girl.  I like the girl, the girl liked me.  Then, she cancels a date with no notice but then meets me again on a later day.  This happened to me with both Anna and Galina.  Since I had reserved the whole day for them in both cases, each instance hurt me.  Why did she do it?  Because she’s in a “normal dating” frame, where date rescheduling has minimal cost

If the girl likes me, it works against her to antagonize me by wasting my time.

If the girl doesn’t like me, then why did she bother subsequently meeting me again after the cancellation?

Case 2: I met the girl, I dated the girl three or four times, I suggest not meeting other girls and spending time only with her.  Girl gets jittery and doesn’t accept the offer, but continues to meet me.  This happened to me with Irina on my last trip and Anna on this trip.  If the girl *really* wanted visit-one, I’m putting in her lap.  Why doesn’t she take it?  Because she’s in a “normal dating” frame, where relationships progress slowly and unfold on their own.   As Gator pointed out earlier in this thread, she doesn’t appreciate how fast these types of relationships need to advance in a short period for them to work out and how valuable on-ground time is.

The problem isn’t that I have “no value” to the girl.  In both cases both I and the girl had spent time and resources.  And the girl was clearly interested (i.e., “I had value”) because she subsequently spent her valuable time with me.  The problem is that the girl doesn’t perceive the value of my limited time on the ground.  In fact, I’m already started to exchange emails with Anna.  All hope is not lost on that front…

To be clear, I understand your point about “no value.”  I had very little value to a FEW of the girls on this trip that I had a short correspondence with.  However, with most of them I had quite a bit of correspondence with many of them and talked to most of them on the phone.  I probably spent 80 hours of prep time calling and writing girls for this trip.

I understand that a girl that doesn’t have much invested (little correspondence and/or phone time) and not much interest is more likely to flake.  That’s not what I’m talking about, though.