Novosibirsk Doesn't Believe in Tears: TwoBit's Sixteen Days In Novosibirsk

[Misha]

Reality is different though, most girls, at least on mamba.ru (which as far as I understand is were the OP met his dates) have lives where they live and are reasonably happy. They are not necessarily looking for somebody to "save" them. Yes there is the novelty factor, and yeah most girls would go out with a guy from xxxx for the heck of it, but assuming they will put their lives on hold just cause somebody decided to fly 6000 miles to go on dates is ... misguided.

True, they are not looking to be saved, but many are looking for a good husband. It is possible to meet a woman on mamba who was not looking for a foreigner yet will marry the right foreigner for love. That is how that I met my wife. I have my doubts, however, as to whether these PUA games will be useful when looking for a serious relationship.

[EfiET]

You are being a little too harsh on the men.

Of course the man needs to be realistic and not assume that the women are desperate and will change their entire life for the off chance that something will develop.

But, let's look at it a little objectively.

The men and women on dating/match sites are looking for somebody.
So now a somebody has contacted them and made a great effort to try to meet with them.
On the one hand, isn't it just common courtesy to give some consideration to fellow human beings?
And secondly, doesn't it make common sense that if you are on a dating site to try to meet someone, that you actually do meet with them when the opportunity arises (after some correspondence has transpired that indicates a mutual interest)?

Otherwise, wouldn't this be like sending in your resume to seek employment at a particular company, and then refuse to go in for an interview when they call you?

I was talking specifically about mamba.ru ... it's a Russian dating site, it's not an international dating site. Common sense even will tell you people are normally looking to date somebody local, not somebody that lives 3 continents away

I m just saying of course some (many) girls specifically from mamba would be skeptical. They didn't sign on to find a boyfriend from South Cali (or wherever) they signed on to find a local boyfriend. Sure they might exchange messages, talk to you on the phone, whatever, but if you get there expect some skepticism especially if the girl(s) suss out the fact you 're there dating 20 other girls.

By the way I wasn't trying to be harsh, I was just trying to inject some realism in the expectations some people have.

[Misha]

I was talking specifically about mamba.ru ... it's a Russian dating site, it's not an international dating site. Common sense even will tell you people are normally looking to date somebody local, not somebody that lives 3 continents away

It is a numbers game. You can't expect that the first, or even the hundredth, woman will be the one. It involves writing hundreds, thousands of women, to then find a couple dozen who would be truly interested and then eventually meeting them in life. Just because someone was looking locally, does not mean they will consider someone from farther away 

[EfiET]

It is a numbers game. You can't expect that the first, or even the hundredth, woman will be the one. It involves writing hundreds, thousands of women, to then find a couple dozen who would be truly interested and then eventually meeting them in life. Just because someone was looking locally, does not mean they will consider someone from farther away 

I don't disagree about that. Of course they will consider. But say that guy they considered dating turns up and is evidently seeing 5 more girls at the same time, would they still consider him?

What I m trying to say is ... apply the same standards as you would apply in NY or LA. Just cause you flew XXXX miles doesn't mean the girl will swoon. And if the girl figures out she's number x of y girls you 're seeing she doesn't have to be understanding. I read these posts (on this and other threads) and they 're like: "Oh I flew xxxxx miles to get here she has to change her life to suit my schedule" and I m like ... do these people even understand women?

[Misha]

I don't disagree about that. Of course they will consider. But say that guy they considered dating turns up and is evidently seeing 5 more girls at the same time, would they still consider him?

I answered that page back If she is not desperate the answer is of course no. As I have already said, best to focus on one woman if you think there ia any chance a relationship could develop.

[EfiET]

I answered that page back If she is not desperate the answer is of course no. As I have already said, best to focus on one woman if you think there ia any chance a relationship could develop.

Well in my experience third date is fish or cut bait time. Girls will want to see progressively more attention from the guy from the 2nd - 3rd dates, and will definitely not tolerate being one of many. That's were IMO the OP's strategy falters.

[Misha]

One other piece of advice based in my experience. If a woman calls to cancel a date, spend some time trying to get her to change her mind. Be persistent. It will show her IMHO that you are interested in her.

[ML]

Well in my experience third date is fish or cut bait time. Girls will want to see progressively more attention from the guy from the 2nd - 3rd dates, and will definitely not tolerate being one of many. That's were IMO the OP's strategy falters.

Most guys on VM will in fact show progressively more attention to a particular woman, if they are clicking and the woman does her share of showing attention also.  

A gal goes from being one of many, to one of few or the only one when she does her part of the equation.  The burden is not on the guy only to move these relationships forward.

TBB would have stopped seeing new gals entirely - - - if one gal had really attracted him, and she had done her part of the equation to make him her one and only - - - not just in terms of other guys, but in terms of making herself more freely available, when ever and where ever.

[TwoBitBandit]

One other piece of advice based in my experience. If a woman calls to cancel a date, spend some time trying to get her to change her mind. Be persistent. It will show her IMHO that you are interested in her.

In retrospect, this is what I should have done with Galina.  I should have just called her and sold her on coming.  I don't know if it would have worked or not, but that's what I should have done.  It's likely that it would have worked.  I definitely rolled over too easy.

In Anna's case it is less clear.  The whole "power struggle" we had going on was making me crazy, and calling her and trying to get her to change her mind would have played into her hand.  You may be right in this case, too, but it's less clear... at least to me.

[Vaughn]

TBB would have stopped seeing new gals entirely - - - if one gal had really attracted him, and she had done her part of the equation to make him her one and only - - - not just in terms of other guys, but in terms of making herself more freely available, when ever and where ever.

Therein lies the question of reciprocity: If the lady is attracted to the man, yet senses (and they do) that she's
not really exclusive, will she "do her part of the equation" at all...?  The chicken or egg dilemma comes to mind.

[Misha]

In retrospect, this is what I should have done with Galina.  I should have just called her and sold her on coming.  I don't know if it would have worked or not, but that's what I should have done.  It's likely that it would have worked.  I definitely rolled over too easy.

That is what I thought. Russian women have their tests and want to feel that they are with pursuing

[Blues Fairy]

If the girl likes me, it works against her to antagonize me by wasting my time.

The problem is that the girl doesn’t perceive the value of my limited time on the ground.  

TBB, I understand the above two statements apply to different cases, but still they kinda conflict with each other.  If you accept that these ladies don't have the same appreciation for your time on the ground, by definition, how can they know they antagonize you by delaying/canceling dates?  You seem to be taking much more offense than these girls have ever intended.  They might have been genuinely busy or delayed by other events in their lives, not necessarily their RM boyfriends.  The world does not revolve around you.  

[Patagonie]

True, they are not looking to be saved, but many are looking for a good husband. It is possible to meet a woman on mamba who was not looking for a foreigner yet will marry the right foreigner for love. That is how that I met my wife. I have my doubts, however, as to whether these PUA games will be useful when looking for a serious relationship.

for a serious long relationship.
Game is a tool, some get laid several times per week if they are very good, and some aim to have a long term relationship (TBB is one of them) or a marriage. Assistance of game is less than 5 % in the long term relationship (after few weeks), natural human qualities are better.

[Jooky]

You seem to be taking much more offense than these girls have ever intended.

Agree. I also agree that these girls are in 'normal dating mode'. Cancelling a date because they forgot to run some errands or are having a bad day or whatever reason is normal.

They also don't know when or if they'll see you again. So, even if they like you, they can be a bit more cautious than they'd be with a local guy.

[daveyj]

I met my gf of 7 months on Mamba.  I've not felt that my foreign nationality and residency is any sort of advantange, and to the contrary the biggest challenge we face is my foreigh nationality and the prospect of her leaving her home.   Having said that, she comments frequently about how non-FSU people have so much more life and light in their eyes and faces.  What I'm saying is that the foreign nationality is an obstacle (and not a draw), but the effects of a foreign lifestyle (more open personality, less harried lifestyle), is definitely very appealing. 

In the case of my gf, she's had high income bf's in the past.  So it isn't as though my foreign level income is so unusual for her.  But I think that a foreign income stream tends to be more stable (employment, etc) than an FSU income, and I think that stability etc is attractive to all women who are looking for a long term relationship.

So my comment about Mamba is that while being a foreign man will present a lot of obstacles, a serious minded women will also recognize that a foreign nationality imbues a man with many good qualities (stabilty, less cynical,  better healthcare, better income, etc)

Interestingly, every critical comment I hear from my friends and associates at home about MOB's, goldiggers, etc, has been matched by similar comments to her from her friends and associates about "western losers", "sex tourists",  etc.

[Misha]

Cancelling a date because they forgot to run some errands or are having a bad day or whatever reason is normal.

Yes, but if you shrug your shoulders and say "whatever," the message that you are sending to her is "he is not really into me." IMHO, even if she does not change her mind, you earn some brownie points if you try to convince her otherwise 

As you know, the women are well aware that good guys that are marriage material once they hit 25 are in short supply. They still want to know that the man is into them. Turning them down for dates, not replying to SMS messages, being indifferent if they cancel dates, all of these things they can get from the local "бабник." You guys can play your PUA games all you want, IMHO it won't work in Russia as the women have their own "games" that they are playing to see if you are serious or not. If you fail, as TBB seems to be learning, you aren't likely going to get anywhere with the women who aren't part of the agency circuit.

[brad5959]

for a serious long relationship.
Game is a tool, some get laid several times per week if they are very good, and some aim to have a long term relationship (TBB is one of them) or a marriage. Assistance of game is less than 5 % in the long term relationship (after few weeks), natural human qualities are better.

the OP is not getting laid, he is not even getting past first base.  he has been on these forums for 9 years.  the game/frame NLP methods are hurting his chances as the women seem to see through this Junior High School routine and the lack of sincerity, unwillingness to make romantic comments, show affection with traditional small romantic gifts and unwillingness to be exclusive.

[brad5959]

In retrospect, this is what I should have done with Galina.  I should have just called her and sold her on coming.  I don't know if it would have worked or not, but that's what I should have done.  It's likely that it would have worked.  I definitely rolled over too easy.

In Anna's case it is less clear.  The whole "power struggle" we had going on was making me crazy, and calling her and trying to get her to change her mind would have played into her hand.  You may be right in this case, too, but it's less clear... at least to me.

was Anna a co-worker you were trying to compete with or a lady you were allegedly trying to romance?  you refused to submit to her in any way, why should she have submitted to you more than she did?  you refused to compliment her on her beauty, scoff at the idea of giving her flowers or some other small gift as a sign of your affection to her and do not offer to be exclusive with her.  perhaps your game/frame NLP methods have been to your detriment as these women are intelligent and they sense insincerity in your methods.  after all they are not some dumb fake blonde with fake breasts in a club in California.  than again, maybe you are trying to date out of your league.

[Seeker]

the OP is not getting laid, he is not even getting past first base.  he has been on these forums for 9 years.  the game/frame NLP methods are hurting his chances as the women seem to see through this Junior High School routine and the lack of sincerity, unwillingness to make romantic comments, show affection with traditional small romantic gifts and unwillingness to be exclusive.

And what is the point?  Have you better advice... have you found the woman for you?

Neither have I... well, maybe just recently.  But time will tell.

I am not the VM type.  I could not do it even if I tried.  But we each choose our own path, most of it just learning... with no immediate result.  But that is how we grow.

I appreciate TwoBit's honesty, and at times, self reflection. 

Even if it is not what I would do, I think he is learning from this, and to a lessor extent, we are too.  As he writes and lives it we can learn from it.  But he is learning much more than we are.

Give him some slack, he has been polite (mostly, though I would have been MUCH harsher under the circumstances ) and responded to all criticisms. 

[brad5959]

And what is the point?  Have you better advice... have you found the woman for you?

Neither have I... well, maybe just recently.  But time will tell.

I am not the VM type.  I could not do it even if I tried.  But we each choose our own path, most of it just learning... with no immediate result.  But that is how we grow.

I appreciate TwoBit's honesty, and at times, self reflection.  

Even if it is not what I would do, I think he is learning from this, and to a lessor extent, we are too.  As he writes and lives it we can learn from it.  But he is learning much more than we are.

Give him some slack, he has been polite (mostly, though I would have been MUCH harsher under the circumstances ) and responded to all criticisms.  

the point is that game/frame NLP methods are not working.  what works is real sincerity, being affectionate and romantic, and a willingness to be exclusive.

I did find a woman on my first trip to Ukraine which was WOVO.  she invited me to stay in her flat so it was a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship right away.  is she the one?  I don't know, that is undecided.

a WMVM trip can work if eventually you pare it down and become exclusive.  otherwise it is just MM and ZNS.

[Seeker]

the point is that game/frame NLP methods are not working.  what works is real sincerity, being affectionate and romantic, and a willingness to be exclusive.

I might agree from my point of view, but still he has his own life to lead.  I think what he is doing might work for some.  Not me, I couldn't take the stress.  And maybe he will learn this too.  Or maybe he will develop a relationship... or another way to find one.

I am not a game/frame type of guy.... but he has his methods and reason for choosing them.

I hope the best for him.  We all need to learn in the ways that work for us best.  That is what he is doing.... He has even stated his approach might not be the best.  He is learning too.

[daveyj]

the point is that game/frame NLP methods are not working.  what works is real sincerity, being affectionate and romantic, and a willingness to be exclusive.

Brad,  how would you describe your own personal approach?  I think I've read a TR from you, but genuinely can't recall the details.  I've not gone looking through your posts, and so I'm just guessing here...but would it be fair to say that " real sincerity, being affectionate and romantic, and a willingness to be exclusive" is the approach that you are personally taking? If so, I respectfully suggest that you are biased.  Unless perhaps you have equal experience applying game/frame methods, and sincerity/romance methods and can thus offer objective comparison.

ps.  Personally, I characterize myself as 80% sincerity 20% game.

[brad5959]

80% sincerity and 20% game is probably workable.  at some point you've got to commit to being exclusive and be willing to get your heart crushed.  no pain, no gain.

[I/O]

what works is real sincerity, being affectionate and romantic, and a willingness to be exclusive.

There are plenty of sincere, affectionate, romantic and exclusive guys who have failed. I suggest it isn't any of those things in and of themselves but the "timing" upon which they are applied. I don't know if or not TBB will go that way with any woman but his report is a demonstration of one way of filtering it down to that point. Others may choose to go early........................ :noidea:

80% sincerity and 20% game is probably workable.  at some point you've got to commit to being exclusive and be willing to get your heart crushed.  no pain, no gain.

Again........................timing?

[brad5959]

timing for sure is extremely important.  you have to strike while the coals are red hot.  I think TBB had a chance to move forward with Anna but he was not returning her calls in a timely manner and was not willing to lay it all out for her.