Novosibirsk Doesn't Believe in Tears: TwoBit's Sixteen Days In Novosibirsk

[EfiET]

The thing to keep in mind is that TBB was not meeting AFA gals, simply regular Russian women on Russian dating sites who clearly were not desperate. Given this fact, they are much more likely IMHO to tell a man such a TBB to take a hike.

That's precisely the point I was making a couple of pages back.

I feel that perhaps this more bang for your buck, date 2-3 women/day kind of approach might end up being a deal breaker for the average girl that is not desperate to find a husband today and is just on a dating out of curiosity/vanity/maybe get a date out of it.

[JohnDearGreen]

There are subtle differences that can make or break a situation that are different from dating in America.

Can't say I agree with you.  If he's the right guy, most any method will work.  If he's not the right guy, almost nothing will work, except maybe showering her with cash flow.   

It is almost always the Indian, and not the bow or arrow that is the problem.

[Misha]

Can't say I agree with you.  If he's the right guy, most any method will work.  If he's not the right guy, almost nothing will work, except maybe showering her with cash flow.

There are cultural differences as Chivo was pointing out. In Russia, compared to North America, a 25-year-old woman is much more likely to worry if she is not married than a 25-year-old Canadian woman and certainly much more from what I gather than a 25-year-old in the Silicon Valley. Their motivations will thus be different. Trying to transplant this "PUA" from the USA to Russia will likely fail because of this.

The games that Russian women will play are also somewhat different. A Russian woman, in my experience, will expect a bit of jealousy. If there is none, she may question when a man is really into her.

There are other points, but I hope you get the idea. You can't simply expect Russian women to think and act exactly like American or Canadian women.

[OlgaH]

Remember that young Russian women have been trained by Russian men within the Russian culture, not by American men in Silicon Valley.  

Gator, I don't know how much Silicon Valley men are different from Florida men but after 4 years living in US I would say that American men are not so different from Russian men   US also full of stories, movies, websites on cheating, time to time you can see stories by RWs about their Western husbands chatting  on dating or porno websites.

Talking about mentality of Russian young generation we also should admit that after the collapse of Soviet Union with free information flow (videos, glossy magazines and now so popular internet) the mentality of the young generation has been changing and  drastically. But you know the bad examples are more infectious and for example we also have our own popular shows in Russia similar to some "bitchy shows" on Oxygen. If some westerns new Russian and could read some blogs, forums, comments... they probably would be surprised to learn that the young women in their 20s in Russia are really not so different from their Western peers.  

And some Soviet facts that also probably would be interesting to know. During the Soviet time there were special different committees  that reproached (very often public) everyone who did not follow the Soviet style life including cheating husbands and wives, persistent alimony non-payers, drinkers and so on. The local Soviets newspapers published such information as who married who, who divorced who, who did not pay alimony that gave our "bench" babushkas some subjects to talk about though they of course new it in advance          

[OlgaH]

According to Russian official statistics for the first quarter of 2010 the number of marriage declined 13% in comparison with the first quarter of 2009.

Russian marriage minded women in their 18 and 20s?
During the Soviet period and early post-soviet period the biggest part of marriages was stimulated by pregnancies due to the lack of contraceptives. The Soviet Ministry of health also was controlling women's reproductive age. There were instructions that forbided to gave fertility treatments to women after 36.

There also was a special medical term (I don't know if it still exists) for a woman who gave the first birth after her 30 - "elderly primipara"   

[Daveman]

...
Unless the prevailing wisdom being spent here is doing exactly that and lavishing these women with gifts and try convincing them how much he's into each one, or any of them, despite the signals they're giving him. If so, then, I will admit such act is something alien to me.

I can't recall anyone suggesting to do something as idiotic as "lavishing these women with gifts". I think I mentioned giving some flowers (because he sounded like he was really into her, and she was, at least at first really into him -- she sent major signals, then turned colder after being, from her perspective, spurned), and Brad suggested flowers and a CD..  did I miss something else in the thread?   

Of course, my poem up thread is a major woman winner on any continent.. anyone, feel free to use it verbatim with only a minor royalty paid in fresh borshch and/or homemade pelmeni...  :evil:

[TwoBitBandit]

I just got home after twenty-plus hours of flying.

Wow, lots of comments.

GQBlues, sometimes your posts seem like riddles to me.  I sometimes read them four or five times trying to figure out the point you're trying to make.  I know you have a lot of life experience so I'm interested in figuring out the point, but I just can't figure out what it is.

I'll write more once I get some sleep.

[Seeker]

Welcome home dude! 

And GQ wouldn't admit it, but he can be as obscure as me.   

[SFandEE]

Welcome home.  Get some sleep.

[kievstar]

OlgaH, If TBB said that Galina told him she was going with friends to Greece on vacation than see no issue.  Maybe she did and TBB left it out of the report.  If that the case even better.

But what he wrote was she was very busy and did not have time for her and did not mention who she was going with.  Tells me something otherwise.

How many women travel to Greece by themselves?  Good looking women juggle men before they commit just like VM men.  Her plan A man at the moment is not TBB unless TBB left out important details.   

[OlgaH]

kievstar,
Did TBB tell her  he came to visit only her? Did they have some kind of relationship?
Why do you think a woman is obliged to give a full report to a person who is nobody to her?
You know nothing about Galina, you just can sit and make your mere guesswork about her, her life, her work, her salary and so on...  

Her plan A man at the moment is not TBB unless TBB left out important details.  

My Gosh! Maybe you will start to write a novel about her with all your rich imagination?

[Misha]

But what he wrote was she was very busy and did not have time for her and did not mention who she was going with.  Tells me something otherwise. ... How many women travel to Greece by themselves?  Good looking women juggle men before they commit just like VM men.  Her plan A man at the moment is not TBB unless TBB left out important details.   

Let's see, on the first date, TBB reports that she is going to Turkey and on the second Greece. Perhaps TBB did not quite understand everything. It happens, I know from personal experience, when you are learning a second language 

As Olga noted, there is no reason why she should disclose everything, but it is just as possible that she wanted to provoke exactly the same thoughts in TBB as she did with you  I would wager that she was purposefully trying to get a rise out of TBB to see if he was interested in her. As I noted, many RW will see a bit of jealousy as a good thing as it means that the man has feelings for her. Apathy and indifference even if she shows signs that there are other men pursuing her will signify to her that you are not really into her. 

[TwoBitBandit]

Let's see, on the first date, TBB reports that she is going to Turkey and on the second Greece. Perhaps TBB did not quite understand everything. It happens, I know from personal experience, when you are learning a second language 

Even now I don't have it straight in my head.  I think it was that she's been to Turkey before and she's going to some island near Greece this time.... or was it that she's been to Turkey and Greece and going to said third island this time... I forget?  I didn't ask who she was going with: it seemed like a nosy question.  Someone earlier on this thread suggested she was going to be on a tour group and that seems quite possible.

[dogspot]

My girlfriend's best friend is currently vacationing alone in Greece (from Piter). I asked her why she went alone and she said she couldn't find any friends who had the same time off as she and so she opted to go with a tour group. She mentioned it is not uncommon to take a solo trip with such a group as they are often able to find cool people to hang out with. Her friend has no plans of meeting men on her trip.

[daveyj]

I've got no opinion on whether Galina is travelling with girlfriends, or a man.  But I was in the Ukraine last week, and my gf said that there are a lot of discount vacations available to Greece now (due to low tourist visits due to unease due to strikes/civil unrest from the austerity cuts)

[OlgaH]

I would wager that she was purposefully trying to get a rise out of TBB to see if he was interested in her. As I noted, many RW will see a bit of jealousy as a good thing as it means that the man has feelings for her.  

Misha I think it is way too early to talk about jealousy and feelings 
Most likely she is indifferent to TBB.

[Misha]

Misha I think it is way too early to talk about jealousy and feelings 
Most likely she is indifferent to TBB.

She was likely interested at the beginning, but the problem, IMHO, is that all these PUA games will quickly leave your average RW indifferent 

[OlgaH]

She was likely interested at the beginning, but the problem, IMHO, is that all these PUA games will quickly leave your average RW indifferent 

Misha, I can not tell what the beginning was... just a few correspondence and phone calls  So what.
Attitude could be "we will see if I will have time and wish" She is chatting on mamba or whatever site with different people it doesn't mean she has a truly interest in all of them but just to kill the time 

[Misha]

Misha, I can not tell what the beginning was... just a few correspondence and phone calls  So what. Attitude could be "we will see if I will have time and wish" She is chatting on mamba or whatever site with different people it doesn't mean she has a truly interest in all of them but just to kill the time 

Why? My wife was chatting on mamba while looking for a husband. She knew the first date that I was the one  If I had played games, I am sure she would have pushed me away and acted indifferently after a date or two. By the end of our first date, we had set a date for the next day and she never called to cancel  :evil: Again, if you are not going to answer SMS messages and clearly let a woman know that you are dating several other women she will quickly be indifferent to you 

[OlgaH]

Why? My wife was chatting on mamba while looking for a husband.

Misha, ok that's fine that your wife was looking for a husband but there are also girls on mamba who don't look for a husband... So what?

[Misha]

Misha, ok that's fine that your wife was looking for a husband but there are also girls on mamba who don't look for a husband... So what?

Sure, some look for sponsors, some look for clients, but most women on Mamba in their mid to late twenties are looking for a husband or at least a long-term relationship IMHO. they may not state it overtly, but it ia certainly a consideration.

[GQBlues]

GQBlues, sometimes your posts seem like riddles to me.  I sometimes read them four or five times trying to figure out the point you're trying to make.  I know you have a lot of life experience so I'm interested in figuring out the point, but I just can't figure out what it is.

20+ hour flight. I remember that well.

Bandit-

My point runs completely counter to what all of the folks here are suggesting. My point is directly based on my experiences meeting and dealing with these Russian women, mostly from Moscow - age range: 22 - 33 (final line-up). My experience told me dating these women was NO different than dating the women back home or anywhere else for that matter. This is what befuddles me when folks keep suggesting to men how they need to date these girls differently. For the curious mind, the women I met and went out with, with the exception of one (a student), every single one of them have money, or well-established profession, or came from a well-stocked household. All have travelled to either WE or USA. One lived and studied in NY for 7 years. Thus, I can go point for point to clearly clarify why most of the general 'advice' in dating these women ran counter to what I have done and believe. But this is your thread, so I'll refrain.

If I had to base my experience dating these women, the suggestion that somehow there's a different set of rules in dating these women is completely bogus for me. IMO, women react to the same stimuli the world over.

I will also disagree that somehow women from mamba is a cut different from the women you'll meet in sites like EM because the implications of international marriages is taken out of the picture. Men who say that simply just want to make themselves feel better about something. While it's true Mamba do in fact have a bigger domestic dating base, it is not absolved of providing a wide database of men & women, especially ex-pats living abroad, to other Russian living in Russia. The original sites like love.mail.ru,  love.rambler.ru, etc...have been for the most part established back in the early 2000 mainly for ex-pats interested in a Russian social network which encompasses areas from Vladivostok to LA. They still use these sites today. I know a lot of Russian couples living here in LA who met on these sites.

Which brings me to you. On one hand you seem to suggest how easy it has been for you to game US women. But in your TR (and I'm not trying to get on your case), you detailed your dating behavior along the way as though you're a typical AM having to go to Russia because no one else will date him at home. Frankly, IMO, it's relatively harder to date US women than Russian women. In more ways than one, even guys living and dating in Russia professes to that fact. So I'm not so sure 'why' you got into a pickle second-guessing yourself with girls like 'Anna'. You went out with her 4 times, yet somehow you couldn't reach first base let alone close a deal. Something was happening there, or better said, wasn't happening there.
 
All I'm saying here is, there's an obvious disconnect (at least to me) in what you told us that you can do back home and how things seem to play out for you in Novo (Russia). Why the disconnect? I don't know. Maybe you can share this in depth with us? I am not getting down on you. I've always known you to have what it takes to get you where you want to be. This is largely why I'm a bit surprised to read some of your entries.

Then again, maybe as Gator suggested, maybe this trip was for nothing more than just to kick the bucket around a bit, yes?

And GQ wouldn't admit it, but he can be as obscure as me

Yes, I do have my Sphinx-tendencies now and then, eh?  But the title is still safe with you though.

 

I can't recall anyone suggesting to do something as idiotic as "lavishing these women with gifts". I think I mentioned giving some flowers (because he sounded like he was really into her, and she was, at least at first really into him -- she sent major signals, then turned colder after being, from her perspective, spurned), and Brad suggested flowers and a CD..  did I miss something else in the thread? 

Awww C'mon Daveman. It's the...shall we say...implied progression. 

If the flowers and the silly CD (that's oh-so 90s...splurge a bit and give Mp3 players instead) got him a peck on the lips, what will it take to get some serious tongue action,eh? To coin a phrase (IIRC i.e. Richard's date from back in the days asking for a yatch) "Ay Yachoo Yatch!"... 

[OlgaH]

Sure, some look for sponsors, some look for clients, but most women on Mamba in their mid to late twenties are looking for a husband or at least a long-term relationship IMHO. they may not state it overtly, but it ia certainly a consideration.

Misha, why you are so evil  Yes there women who looks for sponsors, for clients, but there much more profiles of women in their mid 20s who are  Looking for:

    * — Friendship and chat
    * — Love, relationship

and it doesn't mean that they are looking exactly for a LTR. Some even write "we will see what happen" 

Not all women in their mid 20s, and even mid 30s and 40s are looking just for marriage and no need to put them into the bad categories.

[OlgaH]

Mamba do in fact have a bigger domestic dating base, it is not absolved of providing a wide database of men & women, especially ex-pats living abroad, to other Russian living in Russia.

actually mamaba has enough profiles of ex-pats  
http://mamba.ru/search.phtml?t=a&sz=s&ia=M&lf=F&af=20&at=40&s_c=5681_0_0_0&s_tg=&wp=1&ni=1

rambler
http://love.rambler.ru/search.phtml?t=a&sz=s&ia=M&lf=F&af=20&at=40&s_c=5681_0_0_0&s_tg=&wp=1&wv=1&ni=1

mail.ru
http://love.mail.ru/search.phtml?s_ty=All&s_post=sCfUCwcJIM7Ck86ZUspNgzizmEV898Go&s_m=0&s_i=M&s_l=F&s_tg=&s_f=20&s_t=40&s_c=5681_0_0&s_p=checked&s_v=checked
 

[Misha]

Not all women in their mid 20s, and even mid 30s and 40s are looking just for marriage and no need to put them into the bad categories.

Let's take my wife's example. When I met her, she was 26. Almost all of her friends (with one exception) were married, living common-law and usually had at least one child, a few had two. My wife had been looking for over a year and hadn't really found any good options in her city. She wasn't going to turn down any good prospects. My wife's case is not unique.

How Russian women in the FSU are still different:

1. Women still tend to marry earlier;
2. Women still tend to have children in their early twenties;
3. Women still face discrimination in the workforce and their abilities to move up are still hindered.

Compare this to North America:

1. Though some women may marry early, many women still consider 25 or 26 "too young to marry" and their biological clocks don't start ticking until their mid-thirties and many women will wait until they are close to 40 to have a child
2. It is rare that I will see an educated woman who has a child in her early twenties. Very rare to see young couples with children at university;
3. Women, though it could be argued they face some forms of systemic discrimination, do not face the overt in your face discrimination that many women will face in Russia and other countries in the FSU.

Put all these together, and the result is that:

Women in in Russia in their mid-twenties will be very self-conscious of the fact that they are not married, their married friends (i.e. most of their friends) will see them as a potential threat, and they may have already surveyed the pool of eligible bachelors and have concluded that the pickings range from slim to nonexistent.

Given these factors, IMHO, this changes the dating dynamic quite radically in the FSU. A woman in her late 20s or early 30s in Canada who is attractive will be able to get lots of dates and she will often believe that she has plenty of time to get married and have children. She is in my experience much pickier as to whom she will date and she won't be in any rush to commit to any guy. This was the exact opposite of what I found in Russia.

For these reasons, I believe that women on mamba are looking for husbands. They may not believe that they will find any potential husbands there, but they are certainly on the lookout for anybody with marriage potential. A nice man from the United States, until proven otherwise, will be lumped into this potential marriage partner category IMHO.

Misha