For Newbies : the optimum channel

[Patagonie]

 A topic for newbies : the optimum channel.

 
NB : I have decided to open it in a sealed topic, to allow people to have a quick an easy overview, however, i didn't want to prevent users to discuss about it, so an open topic is available for all comments and discussions (i know that many would like to use a cluebat LOL) ;

 
NB : cultural or gaming perspectives are in blue color. In general game’s commentaries would more concern the western scene, however they would be often relevant to the FSU scene too.

 
NB : Posts coming from others members are in an other police and their pseudonym is specified

 

 
WARNING:

 
   I use this term : the optimum channel, rather than the ideal journey. Optimum is more forgiving, ideal journey is more directional and less permissive. This topic is my way to also thank, it’s my time, all members who have helped me since i started, in mid 2009. As i have not a lot to tell them, i think it is better to stay focused on newbies.

 
    I want to tell you that i will be probably provocative, perhaps even bloody. For those who have already read me last years nothing really new.

 
   I hope to propose a quite different view of the FSU dating earth. Probably because i have been a player. For what i have understood through my extended reading of the forum, i have only detected two here. Few others have approached the topic, and some  are obsviously « naturals ».
   Of course many people don’t have any clue about what is a player, but the worst is that they  believe to know something about it, which in fact is wrong.  We will discuss about this later.
   Before being a player i had been in the crownd for the biggest part of my life. I am NOT a super champion or super hero, i learnt, i hit the hard road, and i have made many mistakes.

 

[Patagonie]

 
THE UGLY TRUTH

I have spent time to study, among all the subscribed members, how many folks  have been married since my first registration, in august 2009. I have gone through all writers to know it. I have opened till the 14th may 2013 all correspondances written by forum posters (even if i have not read all posts in detail !).
   Among 3258 members (some women), only 50  are married now. But in fact for one member  present on the site, it is not difficult to see that in average, around 20 of non members are lurking the forum. I really think that it is representative of the reality, many guys come around FSU dating because now internet is hugely present in our life and using sites to date is a common demeanor.
   It has reinforced my determination to write a whole topic, in the protected trip RWD forum section for NEWBIES.
   I am pretty sure that is the real numerals in the real life we need to apply : 50 marriages for a total of 56000 people having an interest in.
   This is the ugly truth : no more than approximatively only 0 .076 % of men success (and i have included some women, and some guys who got married since but were enrolled before me, which makes statistics better)  in the endeavor, without considering the following unavoidable divorces.
   Do you know many races where 100000 guys compete to get 76 seats ? Probably not so many. I think that in even the most elite selection you would not find such sorting.
   This is the ugly truth, tons of men will fail, in the FSU dating scene.
   The ugly truth is also, i want to tell you is that is a long, exhausting and costly adventure and everything you will do in the cheapest way will increase drastically the risk of divorce.
 
 Newbies what do you think about this profile ? Really ?
SaintPeter
 Posts: 1 (0.002 per day)  Age: N/A  Location: Ontario  Spouse's Country: Russia  Status: Looking 1-2 years  Trips: None (yet)  Date Registered: October 16, 2011, 10:14:49 AM  Local Time: May 07, 2013, 12:18:07 PM  Last Active: October 17, 2011, 07:48:49 AM Hi, Did anyone give you an idea of how easily the Ukraine Ministry of the Interior grants these extensions.
  I will not be working, only living and of course spending money into the Ukraine economy.
 I am 69 and engaged to a wonderful woman. We do plan to marry, perhaps not this winter, but next. I want to stay in Yalta for 180 days, 12 Nov. 2011, until 30 April 2012.

 
Commentary : if this guy has never been yet in Ukraine we call this type of guy A FOOL. Many guys, while writing, are developping a whole world of fantasy about a woman. The truth in fact is ugly when the burden has fallen, would you like to be this guy ? Me definitively not.

 
 
 

[Patagonie]

 OPTIMUM CHANNEL ? WHAT IS IT ?

 
   For example imagine that  each evening you return from your work by car driving 30 miles.
If you drink each time half bottle of whisky and dricefaster than the legal limitation speeds, there is a huge chance that you finish at the hospital or at the cemetary, or without licence.
   On the other hand if you drive not too fast, not drunken, in a big new car or better, in a truck, odds are big that you still will be alive in few dozens of years. The optimum pipe is the way to reach the result coveted with the maximum chance of success for the same means, same time, same money... Some guys are alive very old, smoking one packet per day, but more guys hit the same age by not smoking.

 
   You get the idea ? But what about the search in FSU girls in the purpose to celebrate an happy marriage diamond birthday ? If what i wrote above is under common sense, the topic of how to succes a  human relationship is really more difficult to assess. It is why i like the concept of optimum channel.
   For example in my country if you professionnaly want to success you had better to join high  engineer, business or administration school. It is the better way to have success in your professional life. I don't mean it is easy but it is the optimum channel. You can do the same, by university and with specialized degrees, but it will take more time and your certificate is less valuable.

 
   I would also advice any newby to read the 10 commandements which are a type of bests recommandantions to stay in the optimum channel. What to do and whot not do, the bests practices to be successful.

 
   To summarize : there isn’t an only truth, but just an ideal channel. Some are in and some are out. You maximize your chances by being in.
   
I would like you to avoid this type of story :
 jwarren    Yeah, so I was one of those naive wide eyed guys in 1999 who purchased a dozen addresses from Anastasia and opened up a line of communication with the FIRST respondent, talked on the phone and used snail mail for 9 months before I went to visit. Got engaged after a few days, back again 3 months later, K1 in hand and married 2 months after that...

   It's been rough, really tough in fact. I'm not sure if it's going to last. Observations:
   1) Who ever said that these women are "different" from US women? Lol, they have the same emotions, needs and issues as the homegrown variety.
   2/ I'm soooooo irritated by the whole "village attitude" of these women, I'm stuck in L.A. dying to move to Texas because she doesn't "like" Texas. Just because she lived in the #3 or 4 population city in Russia makes her think she's some "diva". The whole "Muscovite" phenomenon is weird.

    3) I remember on a website I read a story of a woman who moved here and her greatest joy was driving a car with A/C... lol... mine cried because she wanted the new Audi.

    4) Insists on spending $$$ on sister and parent support.

    5) Doesn't know how to decorate, tends to pile crap in every corner of the room.

    6) Domestic Goddess... I read that somewhere on the site and lol'd. Mine is hard pressed to do anything. I cook every meal, I go to the grocery store, basically do everything. And she leaves tea bags everywhere around the kitchen like on that episode of Sex in the City.

    7) Fireworks. Fighting/Arguing with a Russian woman... wow, big mistake, easier just to say "Ok."
 Spends 10 hrs a day on classniki and vKontakte, that's her newest thing...

 9) Soul. We usually expect the Russian soul to be deep and wide but I'll tell you they can be indifferent as all hell when they want to be.

    10) Manners. Very few Spacibo or Pahjalusda. Lots of expecting stuff...
 So that's that... yeah she's still hot but boy is it worth it? I'm not sure, honestly.

    ok, vent session over. Carry on guys.

 
It should be perhaps better to avoid this type of woman. I call them the « materialistic/wishy lavy type » :
   Perhaps you think that is the fault of the woman ? May i i remind you that without her man  she has no chance to relocate ?
   Worst : i think that men have a big responsability generally by making this type of woman BECAUSE of their behavior and demeanor especially during all the courtship time.
   And don’t think that i put the nail on a special and cultural FSU feature, many western women are also like this, it is only more blatant with FSU due to the international dating.



To be continued.

[Patagonie]

 Newbies : it is time to setting the scene to some extent :

Your goal in life is to find an honest and genuine woman, at least. If additionaly i tell you that she is slender and attractive i know that you would sign in the minute. But it is not simple, many walls separate you from them/from her.
   So to enlighten a little the landscape i want right now give some precisions :

 
Scammer is any person (criminal, private persons, agencies) who tried to get money from you at distance and if possible anonymously (generally by western union).
  baldhiker :  Well, folks, I got bit. I've been talking to this chick for four months now, and even spoke with her over the phone a couple of times, but it was a scam and she got me good. Lost nearly $1,200 because she said she'd set up an apartment in Kiev for a week (I was supposed to leave on Saturday), and tickets to and from Lugansk to meet her parent and friends. Then she asked me for rent money today, because she's losing her apartment:

Bokeszy :She and her family live Way out in the middle of nowhere, are poor as dirt.
We talk almost ever day for 3 weeks.
I've research Fiancee Visas and don't think that I want to go that route cause you have to have Met in person (receipts, pictures together, essays, etc). Too much approval this approval that over 9 months of documenting, submit this, submit that.

I Believe that I would rather fly to Moscow, and marry her there. This way is a b!tch too, with the notary, the stamps, the waiting 6 days, then going back in 32 days. I only have one week of scheduled vacation left to be taken in late September. A plane (connect flight) to Her isolated town would cost $2000+ round trip. The flight time is over 2 days, so 4 days of flying (connecting) and 3 days of visiting with her and her family, plus they might just kill me or rob me, who knows? Her siblings all seem to have AKs or a fascination with boxing/fighting. Plus it's ridiculously cold there in late fall/winter sometimes -35. I could easily be left for dead.

I've been studying Russian for 1 and a half years, first using Rosetta Stone (as well as many other languages I tried), then Pimsleur, then another generic audio learn while driving one, then Michel Thomas. I study almost Every day now for a couple of months, used to just be once or twice a week. It's almost become second nature, but my (beyond the basics) vocabulary is still lacking, of course.

How do I get her from her far-from-Moscow town to the registrar to sign what needs to be signed, and then head home? uh, after the wedding party. I'm reading that it all must converge on Moscow. We both must be there in person, at least twice, to make it happen.

Looking at the costs (plane, hotel, documents, visas), I may be staring at $10,000. We haven't even met but through out pictures messages. She asked me if I wanted to get married, I was kinda shocked after chatting for only an hour. She Still thinks that we're getting married and is holding out for long run apparently. Her papa messaged me about having her hand and her heart, and told me to make him "offers." I just confirmed that I'd like to marry your daughter.

Prodaters : girls you met in the east who try, generally during the meeting and or after your trip, to get some money from you without having any commitement with you.

Dreamer_1965I've met an Ukrainian woman, 31 years, in Russian.Cupid, and then visited her in September. I'm 47, from Finland and can't any Russian. She said she has no internet at home, that she use it from work instead.

When we planned my trip to her city, Zaporozhya, she wanted me to rent an apartment for 90 euro. Finally I got it for 65 euro, in cash to her without receipt. It was a small lousy apartment (Booking.com offered 32 e for a much better apartment).
She insisted to met me at the airport with a taxi, and we went to a restaurant. The cost of "taxi" (it was a regular car with no taximeter) was much more than it should be.

In our mailing before, she said she gonna take much free time from work, to be with me. But after the restaurant and I got my room, she went home, she was tired and had to sleep, she had to work much next day (even if that was a Saturday) but meeting me in the evening. She called in the morning, saying we could have lunch. After the lunch she had to go back, some contract have to be done with the customers. Later in the day she called to say that the contract took very long time, and that we would be meet each others next day.

Next day (Saturday) we met and we went to a cafe. She complained she had bad stomach, but drank coffee and a croissant and also smoked (in her profile she said she lived healthy and no smoking? Then she said she had to go home and rest, but we would be meeting later. Instead, she had offered a sight seeing to me. Her friend showed my the city by car, it took 2 hours and the friend wanted 30 euro for that, and the driver 35 e. In the evening
she called and said she was sick, and that a doctor come to her apartment.

The 3 next days was about the same, she had to work much (she said it was the most buzy season for her window company). We only met each others for few hours, for lunch, dinners, and she always had to go home early. Of course I paid for everything, taxi (which weren't real taxis), dinners, wine, etc... She also talked a lot in phone, she said it was from her work, her boss and so on.

My last day there was different. We spent several hours together, walking, talking, etc.
And she bought me a meal (because I lost almost all my money the night before), and when I asked her, she also offered to lend me 20 euro to have for my trip back (but finally I said I would manage my trip anyway). Her hugs when we said goodbye to each others were really warm and honest.

If it wasn't for the last day there, I would had said goodbye for ever. Too much "coincidences", and she had also been much more "lovely" in mails than in real.
I also was outside her apartment 2 times in a car, would a scammer do that? She has also been off-line in the dating site for several weeks, would a scammer do that? But she (or her scamming company) maybe know what suspicious persons are checking? I have found quite interesting to comment this one :I've met an Ukrainian woman, 31 years, in Russian.Cupid, and then visited her in September. I'm 47, from Finland and can't any Russian. She said she has no internet at home, that she use it from work instead. [it can happen : some girl live in a suburb like campaign and cannot have it. Or they are too poor and only use it at work, but more and more all people have internet, you cannot draw any conclusion at this time]

When we planned my trip to her city, Zaporozhya, she wanted me to rent an apartment for 90 euro. [the price for a flat in this city is maximum 30-35 euros (less than 50$) for a one separated bedroom – be careful in the east a room is just the main room which is used as dining room AND bedroom. To have a separated bedroom you need to ask a TWO rooms appartment. The swindle starts right here and you should normally ditch this shit in the second, IN THE SECOND] Finally I got it for 65 euro, in cash to her without receipt [many businesses are done in cash, cash is the king in the east, anyway this guy thaught that he was the winner with his bargain, in fact she kept minimum 40$ per day for her] . It was a small lousy apartment (Booking.com offered 32 e for a much better apartment)[if booking.com offered euros for a much better price it means that the real price of this appartement was 33 $ maximum and she got 85 $].
She insisted to met me at the airport with a taxi, and we went to a restaurant. The cost of "taxi" (it was a regular car with no taximeter) was much more than it should be [as this guy was not capable to assess prices correctly i presume that he paid a huge amount like four five or six hundreds grivnas something like 60, 70 or 80$, you should be around three or four grivnas per kilometer maximum, look with google map before you fly the distance between your flat and the airport and you would have an idea of what you have to expect, any amout which is double or more than this and you should dicht her ASAP. Why 1/ she gets some money from the driver OR 2/ if not it means  that she don’t pay attention to you and therefore she is not the right woman for you].

In our mailing before, she said she gonna take much free time from work, to be with me. But after the restaurant and I got my room, she went home, she was tired and had to sleep, she had to work much next day (even if that was a Saturday)[in Saturday many people work in the west, so you cannot make any conclusion at this level] but meeting me in the evening. She called in the morning, saying we could have lunch. After the lunch she had to go back, some contract have to be done with the customers. Later in the day she called to say that the contract took very long time, and that we would be meet each others next day.

Next day (Saturday) we met and we went to a cafe. She complained she had bad stomach, but drank coffee and a croissant and also smoked (in her profile she said she lived healthy and no smoking? Then she said she had to go home and rest, but we would be meeting later. Instead, she had offered a sight seeing to me. Her friend showed my the city by car, it took 2 hours and the friend wanted 30 euro for that, and the driver 35 e. [some people got 65 $, and she probably a kick back of this overpriced excursion] In the evening she called and said she was sick, and that a doctor come to her apartment.

The 3 next days was about the same, she had to work much (she said it was the most buzy season for her window company). We only met each others for few hours, for lunch, dinners, and she always had to go home early [it is more than likely that this girl returned early at home to see her husband and take care of childrens, or to spend enough time to keep in touch on internet with the next doves who will visit the city and let her the next pack of $]. Of course I paid for everything, taxi (which weren't real taxis), dinners, wine, etc... She also talked a lot in phone, she said it was from her work, her boss and so on. [A girl who spends a lot of time on phone just shows you that she is not interested. If you have any doubt i advice you, any time, to record the conversation, use the help of someone who speaks the language and ask her her opinion, you can expect some surprise and not necessary the niciest]

My last day there was different. We spent several hours together, walking, talking, etc.
And she bought me a meal (because I lost almost all my money the night before), and when I asked her, she also offered to lend me 20 euro to have for my trip back (but finally I said I would manage my trip anyway). Her hugs when we said goodbye to each others were really warm and honest. [Her hugs were really warm and honest ???????????????? it is exactly like : «  I met a girl, we fucked, she asked me 300 $ in the morning but her bj was very warm and tender, do you think that she loves me ?]

If it wasn't for the last day there, I would had said goodbye for ever. Too much "coincidences", and she had also been much more "lovely" in mails than in real. [your life is for real and you don’t live it on internet]
I also was outside her apartment 2 times in a car, would a scammer do that? She has also been off-line in the dating site for several weeks, would a scammer do that? [Yes prodaters have some vacations and can go out with their family because of your stupid money. Or if they are single they can find many mule to  have good time in some far distant resorts, yes TRUE] But she (or her scamming company) maybe know what suspicious persons are checking?

Gold digger : almost the same meaning than prodater, but in a closer relationship.

Jim :
In the middle of July this year I meet a woman from Ukraine over a free dating site. We talked a lot over a chatting site and decided that we should meet in the middle of August for 2 weeks.

I came to her town and we were the first week together every evening (she went to work in daytime) and the second week we went to Yalta ( we rented a apartment). She had at that point just changed job, so I was paying for everything and that was also okay because I knew it would be like that even before I went down to Ukraine.

Even that her English knowledge was very, very little, yes so we with help from the Internet translator, arms fingers and such – yes so we were able to communicate without the big problems. Of course there were misunderstand but I believe there always will be that if people use translators.

When we were together in August we talked about it maybe would be a good idea to get her into a English class and 1 week after I came home she told that she had found a English teacher. This teacher should teach her 2 times a week for 75 UAH for an hour. I send her the money for September. In the in end of September her son was in a car crash where he broke the arm and it was really a compound fracture. She told that she for a time had to stop the English classes and that I could understand because she had to run to the hospital every evening after work.

In the start of October the son was home again (he is 19 years old) and so she told me that she wanted to start to English again, but the teacher had to stop teaching her because she was pregnant. Instead she so had to start in a English class with 3 other and so the price was 630 UAH plus 240 UAH for a book. I send her also those money.

Already in August we made a deal about a new meeting here in the start of November. I went down there the 2nd of November and home again the 7th of November. “ weeks before I should go down to her,
she told me that she wanted me to buy a perfume for her (120 Dollars) and that I did even that I think it was a little strange that she just asked for this perfume, because she already new about some presents I would bring for her.

I came down to her and we had some fine days together, but 2 days before I should go home she told me that she wanted money so she could buy new underwear (550 UAH). I told her I would think about to the next day. She also wanted 450 UAH to the English class for November.

We also talked about a new meeting in the end of December / start of January. But suddenly she told me she wanted us to go to Sharm El-Sheikh for a week in this next meeting. So I told her that she had to understand that even that I have a okay job, yes so it was a little strange for me that she just asked for things all the time and I think she understood.

The day before I had to go home she so suddenly tells me that she want 550 UAH for the English class = 100 UAH more than the day before. I gave her the money, but was feeling that it was strange the it went up from 450 UAH to 550 UAH on one day.

I saw here English books and for me it was not looking like something a beginner should start with and she was also after one month only on page 6. She used the translator to find out about what she had to write in the English book all the time and I believe that it is not the right was to learn – but of course I don't know about how they teach beginners in English in Ukraine.

The last day when I was there we decided to buy pizza and suddenly she tells that we also had to buy pizza for her son. We were in the rented apartment and he was together with his girlfriend in her apartment.

I never have seen the son, family or any friends when I've been down there, even that they of course know about me.

I don't know so much about life in Ukraine and about women from Ukraine in general. So I just wonder about she “playing” with me or this is normally that women ask for presents all the time ?

The broken arm on her son she told me cost 7000 Dollars – can that really be true ?

I need advice – please help me.

Comments : when you read all the post there is nothing shocking. All asked by the lady is legitimate. An engish lesson for 75 grivnas is cheap, you should pay probably 100, 120, 150 grivnas. All is ok EXCEPT the last line : « The broken arm on her son she told me cost 7000 Dollars – can that really be true ? ». Because such surgery don’t cost such amount. This guys started to be manipulated.

 
Agencies: any sites with or without offices who try to sell you goods, video chats and paid letters. You cannot get  personals informations through the site because they control it
free sites : any free sites where you can communicate and exchange private data for free.
Montly sites : any site where you pay a monthly, three months, six months, year fee for a reasonable amount and where you are free to freely communicate.
Matchmakers or tours makers : big agencies are traditionnaly tours maker. I want to speak about few people who are in margin of the « big business » and do it for small groups.
Free sites : costs nothing as indicated (fdating site for example)

 
For more informations you can also see : http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/mwiki/index.php/RWD_Glossary

 
So i will not loose your time time newbies :
   You should drop all agencies which don't have an office. And for those who have an office you should put in garbagge all who have an adress in the west. EXCEPT : all little agencies with cross cultural couple having a main or temporary office in the west. If she is a russian women living in USA it is ok. If he is english and obvsiouly married with an ukrainian wife, having a contact adress in England it is OK.
   Except this case it is time to put in garbage RIGHT NOW all your shit contacts, even if you have already expend few thousands bucks in « promising » hot babees. Do it right now it is the best investissment you can do. All this shit is named on RWD the MOB businness which sucks many millions or billions of $, from your ass , this money comes from you fellows. We have some survivors who had found a wife through this MOB businness, we put them in a museum through formol bottles to keep and perhaps we will be able to build a museum in one century.

 
   The eastern agencies in 95 % of time are between not professional and totally dishonest.  They belong to the MOB business too, except the cross cultural couples who own their own agency Except this exception ALL western agencies work hand in hand with eastern agencies.
   You just pay five or ten more the price to the western ones. With ZERO guarantee, except tons of blabla (example → policy antiscam, LOL LOL, this is just BS guys). WHY would you pay five times more in the west for an eastern service, doubling in the best case your time of correspondance and multiplying the number or go between whereas an healthy motivation should be to communicate DIRECTLY with the girl ASAP.

 
   Ok where to find the 5 % good eastern agencies ?  I would tell you later. To contact girls it rests the free and monthly sites.
   We have also one matchmaker and two guys here who are providing socials.
   But in fact you will find good prospects in the east through cross cultural couple who provide services for westerner who want to get married with an eastern girl.
   I will not give you a list of agencies, you need to use good sites like RWD to find recommanded agencies.
   This tool is useful to understand with which type of agencies you are going to deal with.
   For free sites ML list will be useful. http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=14615.0
   For agencies you can assess them with this tool : http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=ezportal;sa=page;p=3
   For scammer this one should help you : http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?action=ezportal;sa=page;p=37
   You can deal with « non trusty » agencies. I did it. I absolutely DON'T RECOMNAND it for newbies.
However here it is the modus operandi :

 
DATING IN NON TRUSTY AGENCIES : how to do :
As they are per letter paid i advice guys to :

1/ Correspondance
Engage correspondance maximum four weeks before your travel. Exchange a maximum of three letters with them (3 you send, 3 she answers for a total of maximum 6), no gifts, no camera.
Write to only a limited number of women YOU choice.
Stick on this and date them.

If you don't do that you are going to pay a huge amount : hundreds or thousands of $.

2/ Dating
If you like the girl and if the girl like you ask her  private phone number DURING THE FIRST MEETING.

Some agencies have the bad habit to consider girls as a private property, like sheeps and you as a disciplined soldier who will enter in the average budget expense they have calculated in accordance with the sales growth they expect. See below.
When time i was in the office of one were big spreadsheets on the wall were dispatched. You just needed to look these differents curves of  profitability to have a clear understanding of the demeanor of the owner and what he expects from his business.

For what i have seen and what a friend of mine who is a professional terp in this city told me, alot of agencies confuses men and women, BOTH to their profit, in the aim to let the game continuing as long as possible which means more meeting fees, more terp hours, more excursions activities, more gifts.

This terp has helped for dozens of meetings and she has said that the MAIN problem between men and women who in  dating are agencies (fortunately some are doing a good work).

When dealing with an agency i catched them twice : to lie to  me saying that my previous meeting was not interested after a sucessful date + several sms from her. I let my terp calling  the lady few minutes after and the lady answered quite the contrary of what the agency was supposed to tell me.  With an other girl (same agency), the agency didn't warm me that she was free, so we missed an appointment because they let go some time whereas she was available.

3/ cut the agency as first meeting ends
 
Stay polite, don't hesitate to pay what you should pay as fee, tip the agency's interpreter.
I would STRONGLY  adviseyou  to cut the agency after the first meeting ends. Get a private interpreter and work with him/her for followings meetings and dig relationship with who you like... And repeat the process as necessary.

Recommendations in case of an agency you don't know or not recommanded by any RWD members :
This is a basis many travellers forget : YOU choose the woman you want to meet. If the agency PROPOSES you a girl you need to be suspicious and use an independant terp during the  second meeting to CHECK the lady.

to be continued

[Patagonie]

 ARE YOU ELIGIBLE ?

 
   This is a topic rarely put on the table at first. Let starts by the nasty question, but excuse me :
WHO are you ? Indeed no people who hope to earn some money from you would like to tell you : « it would be preferable that you never invest, even a cent, in this adventure. ».

 
   If you are in business the first question is : is this project should be done ? And after : HOW i can do it ?

 
   What will make you a man who would be able to start and finish successfully a complete journey with an FSU women ?

 
   Is it serious to start the journey if MANY disclaimers are crossing your way ?
   Many in RWD would therefore advice you to avoid it and date locally. Because this is not for everybody. Contrary to the global advertising of the Mail Order Brides system the ugly truth shown by the statistics proves there is a big gap between having a penpal relationship and live together with the lady of your dream in your country.

 
   I am sorry to tell you this abruptly but many hillbillies will be sorted anyway by the scamming/prodating business because whatever i can explain there are many people who would like to dream and/or to date women who are not in their court.
   Professionals (coaches, relookers, psy, people who works in agencies) see tons of hillbillies and hopless. In this flow the scamming/prodating business is the natural selection tool which will prevent good girls to meet those rubes. And i have nothing again this.
   Be careful when i speak about hillbillies, it is not necessary uneducated and poor people. It can be high IQ white collar who are trapped in the dream of loving the image of love, but finally at the end there is no real relationship. And thoses things don’t only happne on internet, but also in real life, as i have seen many times around me. So these train wreck are not necessary linked with business success.
   BUT i know also there are many valuables men who are betrayed and could be good husband and good father for a cross cultural family. Those guys desserves to be helped. It is why i am today writing this for them. I know they are generally silent on the site, but i know they exist and i think they are quite numerous.



to be continued


 

[Patagonie]

 Lets an eastern woman expresses herself on the topic :
Jenna
RW have their own fears about men who put out their profile on dating site...

1. of the most common - sex tourists. There is some kinda folk who to give oneself out to be man who looking true love, but they looking only sex. They just to dupe RW. But that kinda cheater not too dangerous. And them easy find out. They always to quick for trip. and they in the first letter to drop on sex.

2.  fellows - "writers or dreamers". They like to send letters. A lot of letters, calls and sms. They like to dream about their great future with his lovely russian wife... to make a lot of plans about what color walls in the nursery how they to name their future kids and so on... but they never come to russia to meet their future "wife". They have so many excuse. It can be burial some close relative, car crash, tsunami, suddenly appears incurable illness or even death.

I read one girl story. She made the acquaintance with one guy. They been in correspondence about one year. And he made a lot of promise to come to her... But he did not. When she ask him when he finally come, he said that he have no money for that trip. She broke up with him, but she lost whole year. She can meet a real man who really looking for real relationship, not virtual online wife.

Other guy just die. His friend sent her letter where he wrote that he die from cancer. It was really big letter where in every detail dude described his last day with her photo in his hand on the hospital. I'll try to find that letter and put out it, if it not break rule this forum. But in a few day happened miracle! that guy rise from the dead and again login on dating site )) She was really surprise and ask her friend to call that guy by the phone. And hid answer to this call. That no less than a miracle. Provided to be in the next world provide Internet and phone...

3. Some of that kinda guys chat with a women at the work time, but have real wife and kids at home. They just eat up women's time for fun.

4.  Other guy from site harmless - they just old mans. you know, I don't mind about it, but they send a msg a younger women. It can be 60 y.o. man who send msg for 20 y.o. woman. There are a plenty of those.

5.  Also there are many people who have some mental problem. They send RW weird msgs in which describe very poor live in Russia and present ourself rescuer and last chance poor RW to have a good live. They offend women and make a bad mood.
They have no idea that maybe that women more educated, have a good job and etc.

6. well known you scammers.

7. And finally real men who looking for a real relationship. They send nice letters, do not mind to come to Russia and will be a right person for someone RW.

to be continued


 

[Patagonie]

 financial parameter

 
   One of the prerequiste to success the equation is the financial parameter.

 
   We know that many will never go. But among those who arrive in FSU, half of them minimum, IMHO, don't have the means to support such adventure.

 
   What nobody will tell you on this forum is that the majority of the guys here are well off or rich. But not a lot admit it. Knowing a lot of people richer than you, you are inclined to consider that you are yourself not so rich finally. I have a theory about this, i call it the circle theory.    Depending of your status in the society you are prone to meet with people of the same status, or one or two social circles below and/or above. So very rich rarely deal with the extreme as poors rarely deal with the very rich. Add the international perspective and the scale is multiplied by ten or one or one hundred.
   I personnaly prefer to talk about decile which it the way used by many statistical offices. What is your position in the deciles ? A lot of people, in their country and in foreign countries have no real clues about abouteconomicals consequences  on social groups. 
   The purchase power concept is very important and should be understood before you go, it will avoid you to be prodated or scammed if you date internationaly. It will also help you to avoid  screwing up your relationships.
   You will meet usually a lot of people who earn in average 350$ (Ukraine) to 800 $ (Russia) with a lot of disparity depending the location (and job). You need to print this in your head every time.



to be continued

[Patagonie]

 Would you like finish in ten years like this guy, the heart always broken ?

 

 
Ivan1971
Hello,
   Nearly 10 years ago I found a lovely Ukrainian woman. It al began with romantic love letters. In 3 months time we exchanged over 150 long letters. I just had to see her face to face. Bud I was financially out of luck in those days. Had a bad job and bills were stacking up. But still from my last money I bought a ticket from Amsterdam to Kiev. Naive as I was I thought that everything would be cheap in Ukraine anyway. And a lot of things were bud not hotels and such. Olga met me at Borispol 20 minutes after I landed. I still remember the taxi-drivers flocking around me as I was searching the big hall looking for a flinch of my dearly beloved. Bud No Olga in site. One of the man asked me "where do you want to go?" 'Krivoy Rogg' I replied. I saw the pupils of this man widen. Little did I know at the time that Krivoy Rogg was around 500 km driving, so it would make this man's year.
   Irritated and scared that Olga wasn't there I desperately went to the kiosk in the middle of the hall and asked the lady behind the counter if she wanted to announce me to Olga so she could find me.
   This was the first time I heard my name Iwan spoken out as Vanya trough the airports sounds system. Not much later Olga appeared slightly out of breath (she was stuck in traffic) seconds felt like minutes now. Instantly I lost my anger and fear, there was only joy. Maybe it sounds crazy but it really was like we were in a film and we were on slow-motion. We embraced and started a conversation that lasted for the rest of the day. We took a taxi to a friend of her and had something to eat and drink. After that Olga told me that she had found an apartment for the weekend but it wasn't very nice. I though naively that all apartments in Kiev would be crap anyway. The place was dreadful, dirty, old furniture, toilet and cold. And still I found this al very romantic.
   We both were very tired from running al day and nerves. But first we had to do some shopping. We got some food from a little store around the corner and wanted to put in on a plate but only to find out that everything was brown from dirt. So we cleaned for about 3 hours and that was only the kitchen. I remember there were pictures of naked woman on the wall above the stove. We ashumed this place was from a sailor because we found a safety vest and sailors clothes. Of course these were dirty too. The toilet had to be flushed with a big bottle of water. Bud there was a large bathtub! We heated up the chicken and Ukrainian pasta. Eat and did the dishes again. I remembered suddenly that I forgot to give Olga my present to her. So when we opened the wine I gave her the perfume. She told me her present was to be given later. Naively again I thought it would be a tour of Kiev. Finally deciding to go to sleep I went to brush and wash first. I was already sleeping when a loud cough woke me up (there might have bin a stamp on the floor) there was Olga in the doorway dressed in a blue nightdress. I didn't see that it was my present promised earlier. Still half a sleep I welcomed her into bed kissed her (for the first time) goodnight. Bud she kept kissing me and I didn't wanted to be impolite so I kissed her back. The night wasn't for sleeping at all. From the photographs the next day I can still see how tired we really were. But our feelings for each other was much stronger. For the first time in my life I felt so much love coming from her.
The next day when we finally succeed to leave the apartment I was walking on air, cloud nine or seven. Before I went to Kiev I always thought that the people here were grim and depressed. But I couldn't be more wrong. Was it us or them? I still don't know for sure. But everybody was friendly and cheerful! We went to old district in Kiev were the artist, painters, poets and writers used to live. Olga and I were drunk with love and nothing else matters. I never was more sure of in my life that Olga was the one for me. Normaly I am a patient man and calmly waiting until al my thoughts are counted for. But there was no doubt in my . So I asked her on the third day to marry me. She kindly excepted my request. I still didn't know when or where but who cares at such times anyway.
The next day we took the midnight train to Krivoy Rogg. For the first time in my life I travelled first class. A whole coupé just for us. I wish I could tell that we spent a quiet night in there but I can't. And those walls in these trains are not well isolated if you know what I mean. Early in the morning when I went to the toilet I saw an old lady in the coupé not next to us but after the next and she was looking at me amazed that I was the man who caused al that noise and then angry that she didn't slept at least nor more then we did.
I met her mother and father they were nice people. Olga herself was very good educated and her parents where pretty smart too. Mother a professor in mathematics and father an engineer in mining. Olga was teaching at the University. I could talk with them about Agatha Christy and about how they liked the flowers from Holland. It didn't took long as I felt like family with them. The love between Ola and me grew stronger every day and the days went by fast. She took me back to Kiev. We visited the old monastery and the war memorial al very impressive. I remember standing in the tower freezing my but of as it was -25 c. The next morning she took me back to Borispol and waved goodbye. That was the last time I saw here. I could hear her heart breaking and so was mine. Because I didn't just go home. I went back to reality.
I promised Olga that I would send her a ticked in 1 or months. Of course little did I know about the rules and regulation at the time. Things were not to bad though I found a job fast and started to make money. Hoping to pay of that stack of bills and then be able to get Olga here. But when you rush things it will go wrong somehow. We spook on the phone everyday. I started to develop crazy idea's and thought it would help us. But instead it made us driving apart. I didn't tell about the bills and other problems I had. Didn't want to scare her or make her lose hope. And when she found out when I confessed these things to her she became angry at me and not much later broke of with me.
Out of desperation I robbed my boss for a few thousand euro's wanted to travel straight to her and get her back. But my friend stopped me. I gave the money back to the boss and I was lucky he didn't call the police about it.
Time went by. Some days I didn't think about her. Days went into weeks but never months even when I had a new relation with someone else. Ten years later I still miss her, wondering how she is doing. Is she married, children maybe? I really want to find out.

Commentaries : And what about her ? Did she felt betrayed, abused? What do you think ? I think she felt dirty after this story. Perhaps she stopped to meet western men for ever.

to be continued


 

[Patagonie]

 If you live in the west you should consider that 4000 $ worth per month is a minimum. You can low this amount if you are an owner and pay no credit. You can low it if you live in a village and life's costs are cheap. You have to increase this amout to be comfortable, 7000 $ seems the right amount to go ahead, especially if you live in a big city. To tell you in other manner, you should be a citizen in the top 10 % of single earners minimum of a western country, ideally in the top 5 % or better. Check national surveys to understand in which decile do you belong and understand what is your position.

 
   Prices are not cheap in FSU, this is not Asia or Africa, during the dating stage you should consider between 100 and 200$ to be daily spent not including travel and rental costs, 100 $ per day is a minimum.
   After the marriage you should consider that no additional income will be bring by your wife for the next two years in most of cases. The best is to make a sheet with all incomes and expenses.
   For the testimonies i got, the US crownd who comes in Ukraine say they earn between  5000-7000 $, this is already the well off class or the upper middle class.

 
   Any newbies should know that they are expected to pay all when they are in the east. I say ALL, during the dating stage. If she buys some food or little things for you, this is a good sign. It adds a sign of interest to the list you should keep all time updatet : « is she into me ? ».
   If you are reluctant or uncomfortable to pay ALL the time, don’t go to the east and date locally.
   The RULE has to be well understood : you pay ALL. Some women are enough well off to pay their own transport flight ticket or more, they will let you know.
   Think right now that every time you do something with her you are in charge of her, and also think that when she is with you she don’t get any wages (depends if she is in vacation or not) and you would be an asshole to let her in misery (this will be probably a death kiss for ever).


To be continued

[Patagonie]

 What is the true motive for you to want an FSU women ?

 
 What do you think newbies of this type of ad ? </blockquote> <blockquote>kh00201001407375 </blockquote> I NEED TO MARRY PRETTY RUSSIAN WOMAN CAN ANY BODY HELP ME !An Egyptian business man seeking a stylish decent lady to be my friend, I am a 45 year old looking for a nice lady to get to know her and have a wonderful time together. I am a very outgoing person and enjoy all types of activities such as travelling , tennis , gym , cafes , restaurants, have weekend at my private chalet at red sea beach , relaxing at beach ,etc ,. My friends say I?m very outgoing but I think I?m very active person when first meeting people they feel that we know each other from long time as dear friends . I work full-time as a real estate & relocation services expert. I am very sociable and enjoy being around open minded people . If you would like to get to know me, just send me a message.

 
Commentaries : this guy want to fill his « private chalet », in the purpose to stay very active in the « chalet » every night ?
 
 
 
 
Bang in Ukraine : It is interesting to talk  about  a young guy who visited many countries and publish on the web many ebooks entitled « bang in « choice the country you like » ».

 
   He had visited Ukraine and spent few months here.

 I have read his book « Bang in Ukraine »  and have mixed feelings about his work.

 
   More i read and more i got confused. I even thought sometimes : we didn’t meet the same girls, perhaps we didn’t visit the same country. But on  an other end there are things with which i totally agree .
 
 I think his whole perspective is biaised because of his motivation. I cannot imagine that  banging for years is a project. Bang is not an ultimate level, it is just put a notch for the  pua (pick up artists) communities when you game. Banging means only that you had had a real a relationship with a women. But is sex only a relationship ?

   What is obvious to me is that writer had had very little pleasure with women for the time he spent in Ukraine. The second thing i detected about his skills is his inability to detect women level of interest, which he admits it himself.
   In reading body language, i think he needs to make a stage, but i also  think, not being able  to define it accurately, that he was not showing enought value. Value in game is not a wealth perspective. Value means to be a singular an individual person who is noticed by women.
He got the concept of « sugar daddy » and starkly stated that one of the way to bang is to consider seriously to be a « sugar daddy ».
   The sugar daddy is in FSU a guy who regulary provides for a woman in exchange for a specific relationship on a financial level freely accepted by both. More popular in FSU rather in the west.
   I consider that if you don't have fun with a woman, you stay at home, simply. If you have some sexual pressure you can manage it by yourself if really necessary or pay a service.
   Bang is his leitmotiv, it explains the choice of the title (bang)» for each of his books.
   Rather than an artist (Pick Up Artist) i give him the nickname of « butcher ».
   He wrote himself « Because i consider ukrainian ladies (he dated only girls under 30 for what he wrote) as corpses, corpses you need to get back from the death, in the purpose to push them in a bed. » It is why i call him the butcher because i had had 50 meetings in three months (of full time) and i didn't meet such amount of cold meat. »

 
   One of the danger is the dehumanization for players. It is good to leave the clouds and land on the earth because i have myself been too long not knowing the real face of women, but too much game, too much sex only push you in a form of dehumanization.
   This is the threat of gaming in the way to 1/ only get sex  and-or 2/ trying to go after a result (get more notch on your cross, practicing the field to nurtur some stupid datas for statistical purposes). After reading few pages it is obvious for me that the writer suffers from such dryness.
   
   However, for the price i invite people to read it, it will give you an interesting and some original perspective.   
   He made some good statements but i disliked his dishonesty.
   For example he disarms a little bit girls asking him question about marriage, letting them believe that he can be serious about it, but he had never had such intention.
   I don't like also not at all how he pushes systematically girls to drink some alcoohol to get what he wants, it makes me puke.
   I don't like also his character which consists, with others competitors, to attack them in the eyes of the girl. I think, this is childish. You don't get elevation from such action.
   He also spent time trying to convince the girl in a way or an other to bang with him (of course lol). He tried to convince an ukrainian girl of difference in culture and what she should do. This is weird for me because this type of « logical » explanation normally doesn't work. IN the game you are never making some argument, she is interested : she is attracted or she is not. This is a mistake of beginner : try to rationnalize a girl.
 
   I have appreciated more the way he talks about the transactionnal character of Ukraine girls. Yes i think it is true for a large part. Ukrainian girls are more transactionnals than western gals. BUT, you would think that ukrainians are VERY materiatlistic. In fact i think they are more « transactionnal » (rather than materialistic ) but not a lot above the western ones at the end. The truth is that western women want almost the same, but the global desimformation lets you know that they just want egality, rights and true love. In fact they are also very sensitive as we will see thanks to David Buss' scale to the social and economical factor. Western girls put a lot of smoke around the same reality, the same feminine needs.

    He also shows lack of cleverness. At a moment he spent four hours with a student and she was telling to him that she wanted to go to Denmark.
   He needed two hours to figure out that she was in correspondance with a danish.
   One of the first thing i learnt in the international dating is to let (of course) girls speak. If a lady speaks too much about a speficic country, you know the nationality of your first competitor right the money. If you know some additional details you just need to go on the main site she goes and barely sort the few profiles which are fitting with what you know. Two times i sort out my challenger.
   It is not stupid to have a maximum of informations to assess which allure you want to adopt with her. Later you will assess if her interest for this country is always prevalent or not (in this last case it will show generally that her interest for the guy has gone, except girls who aim only ONE country).   

 
    He also has a bad opinion of Ukraine as a superior western citizen
   Let me tell you newbies that you are playing a deal breaker for any fsu women.
   This is a classical mistake for newbies. What does it show ?  It only shows disrespect for the eastern culture, which is felt as a personal lack of respect for the women.
   Eastern women are very proud and they never feel at any moment that her country is inferior in any manner to an other. You need to really understand that countries are different and those differences shouldn’t involve any quantitatives and/or qualitative comparaisons.
   He also don't have a lot of respect and empathy for people, when you have such ideas in your frame (frame is the external emotional state felt by other people of what your personality sweats)  sweats with everybody,  at all floors. He don't seems also an alpha (alpha = leader) and don't give to people, he don't seem to have fun, and when you don't have fun you don't give fun to other people, because when you are fun, when you have fun, people enjoy to share it. You give them something which is rare, believe me less and less people have fun in this society, obsessed with performance, money, appearance.
   I have also travelled and spent a lot of years abroad and i am really surprised how he can say that Ukraine is a third country. He needs to travel a little more. The fact is he hated Ukraine, mainly because, and he wrote it himself « i felt like a chump ». He considers Ukraine as one of the most difficult country to bang (NB : i didn't write « to game or to play », i wrote to bang).
   His opinion is quite interesting because i got different results having quite the opposite behavior, motivation and approach.
   He says that FSU women are really, really more skilled to read men BS. He thinks that eastern ladies have between five and ten years  of experience advance’s with men compare to western ones, i do agree.

 
   He suffered from the lack of comfort : he says that he needs normally three dates before bed a girl. And what ? This is between 5 and 9 hours of meeting, which is the standard defined by Mistery (probably the best theorician of the game). His flagpole probably needed ONS, which he never got.  As he explained : for security reasons girls will not spend the night out if they had scheduled to return at home from the scratch, the concern of the family and relatives is real. You need to be introduced if possible. I do agree again.
   It makes sense : if you have built few weeks of intense relationship by internet (Skype preferentially) all is ok but you are doing for sure a VO (visit one) or expose yourself to many problems, or you should use a professional (interpreter – agencies), to secure her.
   Also many women don't take pills, they are really less going  to abort, men rarely pay alimony, allowance is totally unknown, local men know to be sometimes brutal or more, and many stories spreaded  about sex visitors put a global suspicion, finally all of these explains why he never got an ONS.
   As a result, Newbies you should be aware of all of this, and smooth as possible your arrival in her space. IMHO you should bring to her the right signs to let her developping feelings and security beside you. It is obvious that a huge experience in socials a master plus, as eastern women  radars are very performant. So any weird things you do and you will be kicked out very quickly.

 
Conclusion : if you came to « bang » this specialist considers that Ukraine is not the right place to do such a thing and there are many countries easier to do. Bang in USA or Europe is REALLY easier in his mark.
 
 
 If you come to Ukraine for the lust you should reconsider this option, by staying in Kiev with paid relationships, it will be really better, less expansive and you will not deceit many genuine girls.


to be continued