"Neutral Territory"

[Ulysses]

Hello all,
     I'm probably one of the "more mature" guys on the list here.......love the bantering back & forth.....and all the info
 posted over the past many months.  I've made several trips to Ukraine before striking up a rather strong correspondence with a "mature" woman from Moscow.  She seems to have her life together and all....not a need for drama...just searching for a strong and lasting relationship with an international flavor. There's 13 years difference in age here...BTW.   Well anyway, we've decided to meet in Paris in July......no distractions for either of us...to see if the chemistry is there.  (OK, I'll confess up front I'm already responsible for some of the $$$ in this....over & done with the evaluations, etc in this regards....!!)  Just seeking out some advice, thoughts from you guys about the "value" of this approach and any advice for the upcoming week there.
      Thanks......Ulysses
PS.....my French is much better than my Russian......and her English is very good....her son graduated from one of the European Schools of Business and they both seem very educated.

[ECOCKS]

I found Paris to be much more interesting before I went there. Oh, the museums were absolutely excellent and the historical atmosphere was among the best in the world, but the attitude of the people left a lot to be desired and, frankly, the food was better outside of Paris in the countryside inns and hotels. I used to be unhappy with the service until I was in Ukraine for a while. It's still not great, even the Brits were better and more attentive despite almost equally bad food.

I would suggest Vienna or Prague as much more romantic.

My wife wants to go there but admits it is based on this romanticized picture she has of things there so other than getting around to those museums my guess is we'll head out of town pretty quick.

Oh yeah, the weather seems to be a crap shoot as to what you can expect. Maybe good, maybe gray skies which darken the city still further.

[Ade]

I'd agree with Ed about Paris although I was living in France for a while before I went there so I wasn't particularly surprised. Still, my ex loved the place, so what do I know?

Are you sure she can get a visa directly to France?

[Sculpto]

wow you guys must have been in a different Paris than me.  I loved it there and certainly not for the museums.

If you get out of the tourist areas things improve very fast, the quality of the food, the service and the price.

Stay away from the tourist areas like Pompidue, Elisee, Ille du france, Left bank close to the river with all the crepe places and Sacre Couer, Pigalle scams and ripoffs.. and you will eat, drink and enjoy with the same gusto as Parisians. 

The best meals I had were in the working class bistros near Gare du Nord... the Indian/Pakistani food in the same area is the best I have had anywhere.. the Marais is good, and, Sundays in the Marais are special, the left bank further in near Le Sorbonne is good also.  For something a little edgy walk St. Germain in the evening..   Dont miss the parks!  Look for the farmers markets underneath the elevated metros.. picked up awesome cheeses and wine for pennies compared to the shops..

As to the museums.. I wouldn't waste any time at the Louvre and instead go to Musee de Orsay.. the collection is a lot more interesting IMHO.  Also not to be missed are the Picasso museum in Marais and Rodin house.  Pompideu is worthwhile but I thought a bit of a hassle.  Oh and I almost forgot.. go out to Monet's house.. forgot the name of the village just outside Paris.  That was perhaps my favorite artist home visit i have ever done, even surpassing El Greco in Toledo which was a pilgrimage for me.

[CaptB]

My advice as always......if looking for a life partner is your goal.......is to always meet in her "home country" first....and preferably in her "home town" if you really want to learn what she is all about. Meeting in her home town cuts out all of the women who would like a nice "vacation" (ie in Paris). If she is very resistant to the idea of a first meeting on her home turf......I would pass her by. Vacations are wonderful for "after" you have connected and interest has been shown in pursuing a relationship. In her home town you get to meet those folks who have known her all her life.......and how those folks regard her. If you go on vacation now......it will be just that....a vacation. You will still be left with the task of getting to know her in her own environment later.....in other words a "second trip" just to get to stage one. If you meet in Russia "first"......and things don't work-out......you will have used only one trip.......instead of two......to learn the basics. Lots of "vacationers" and "serial daters" out there. You will know more about your "chemistry" on the first day you meet....than in the months of phone calls and letters that preceeded your first face-to-face meeting. You will know much more about her in her home environment.....than you will on vacation.

Capt B

[Sculpto]

Capt B has a good point.

What if you arrive to meet the lady, and despite the online and phone chemistry just don't click at all in real life.  then you are obligated to spend a week or two on vacation with a stranger that you would prefer not to be with.  At least if you go to meet her at home and it doesn't click you can enact a backup plan with not too much effort.

food for thought..

[JR]

I may be wrong, Nah can't be! But I believe the OP was refferring to the value of meeting her in a neutral setting verses in her hometown where there would be distractions.

The main problem I see with this is that you are on vacation and daily life isn't the same. Of course visiting her in her home town wouldn't be either unless you are planning to move there.

[mendeleyev]

Mendeleyev principle: To which he will never change because he's right--no matter how many others disagree: To take a girl you hardly know and whisk her off to a secluded romantic place to "get to know her" is counterproductive. Some guys have done it and come away unscathed, but far more in the history of Russian MOB have done it and gotten badly burned.

It is ludicrous to think that a week or two when both are on best behaviour is getting to know someone. The only thing you learn on a honeymoon, which is what a getaway is, is how often the two of you can have sex before becoming exhausted. The romance allows the little head to take over and ignore things the big head would normally see.

Getting to know someone is done in her natural environment to see how she is in real life. A getaway to Greece or Turkey or Paris isn't her real life.

Culturally: you are considering marriage to a woman brought up in Eastern culture/thinking. I don't care if she is 65 years old, the relationship between herself and her family is very different that what we expect in the West. You need to spend as much time with her family, establishing relationships with her parents (if alive), her aunts, uncles, brothers/sisters, cousins and her friends. A "neutral territory" short circuits this time you should also spend with her family...something which will become clear to you a few years into your marriage.

Finally it also means that when you do get married you now must "top" the last trip in order for the next honeymoon to feel special.

[ECOCKS]

OTOH, this is their first meeting. Hopefully, he's not a OWW who will be proposing on this first face-to-face date.

When you are internationally dating from halfway around the world, many are naturally combining this with a bit of vacation. Just important to remember what the objective is for this trip.

Still, your point of her "natural" environment is well-taken and would be worth considering IF he had already decided he was going to take it to the next level. I took it that he feels he knows her as well as he can to this point (perhaps optimistic) so his intention is to meet her in a place where they can get to know each other a bit and decide where they are going with the relationship.

You have another good point in that Paris for a first date sets a high standard by which all other dates will be judged. Someday, my wife and I will see Paris, in the meantime it's down the road, a future stop on the byway.

[Ade]

My fiancée and I met in SPB which is not her home town. Her suggestion.

I asked her about that some time later and she said that she didn't want me anywhere near her town, family and friends before she'd found out that I wasn't a nutcase. If I had been it was a simple matter for her to leave. The advantage for me was that SPB was much easier and quicker to get to than Archangelsk.

I will have to agree that Paris is, at least for the ladies like Sculpto , an ideal holiday destination so there is definitely a GTG risk there and of course there's the, "getting stuck with an incompatible lady" scenario too.

[Aloe]

what standard are you talking about, i went to thailand with my fiance for our first meeting ever, after that he came to Russia, and i didn't expect any of our following meetings to top our first trip, nor our honeymoon, for the simple reason, you aren't allowed to leave the country for a few months after you get married. not to mention we can't afford it lol. and we did have 2 major arguments while on that vacation that helped to get to know each other tremendously, and just living together and talking, even in a hotel, helps getting to know each other. But maybe that's because we were just being ourselves, not on our best behavior, because during the other meetings in Russia, we had just as good a time as in thailand, with completely same person, no dramatic changes.
oh, it just hit me, when we were going to thailand we were just friends(we had talked and played a video game together online for 3 years before that), and neither of us was thinking serious relationship, me because i didnt consider such young guys seriously, him because.. umm. dunno. maybe that's why we weren't on best behavior and arguing haha.

[Shadow]

You say that up front you are responsible for the $$. Does that mean that you have paid for her trip without ever meeting her ? In that case good luck, although Paris is not the worst place to be stood up.

Regarding first meeting, I would prefer the hometown approach. Unless the woman is living in a three-horse town, it is not so hard to avoid family and friends for a couple of days when the guy turns out to be a nutcase. Especially in Moscow.

[Ade]

Regarding first meeting, I would prefer the hometown approach. Unless the woman is living in a three-horse town, it is not so hard to avoid family and friends for a couple of days when the guy turns out to be a nutcase. Especially in Moscow.

Yes, that of course is logical but when has that ever been an issue with the decisions some women make?

[BC]

I would suggest Vienna or Prague as much more romantic.

Just returned from Prague.  Great city and decent bang for the buck. It's at the top of places I would like to go back to.

Russian spoken everywhere, German and English as well.

[GoodOlBoy]

Just returned from Prague.  Great city and decent bang for the buck. It's at the top of places I would like to go back to.

Hey BC....glad your back posting !

I agree completely.

Prague is a great place. Marina liked it VERY much.

A LOT of history. I liked the castles...they were very cool ! 


GOB

[Blues Fairy]

It is ludicrous to think that a week or two when both are on best behaviour is getting to know someone.
Getting to know someone is done in her natural environment to see how she is in real life.

Actually people are more likely to be on their best behavior when they are in their familiar environment.  Vacation, on the other hand, is always a stress with unexpected things arising and minor and major problems to be solved.  Communication and problem-solving skills may be observed mutually, and better when both fish are out of water than when the woman can rely on her home-town surroundings and support.   

Besides, when she moves to his country she will no longer be in her natural environment.  Her "real life" will change and she will change, too.

So this "getting to know someone" argument simply does not fly.
And if she pays her half of the trip expenses, the other objections do not fly either. 

[Ooooops]

Getting to know someone is done in her natural environment to see how she is in real life. A getaway to Greece or Turkey or Paris isn't her real life.

I agree and disagree...   Some people live to work and some people work to live, same with vacations.   

[mendeleyev]

So this "getting to know someone" argument simply does not fly.

We'll just have to respectfully disagree.  I think a getaway on an early visit is dangerous.

[Ooooops]

Let me tell you, I'm a much, MUCH better person when I don't have to be cramped up in a small confined space (aka apartment) with lots of people you can't get away from because of some circumstances.   

[AugustD]

Our first face to face meeting was in Prague.  Larisa wished to meet in a neutral site as to be able to focus on the start of a relationship versus being a mom and a business owner.  I chose Prague.

"Real life" does not take place on vacation.  This is true.  I am unsure how much of my "real life" went with me to Russia in my following visits also.  Meeting her mom and her sister and obviously forming a relationship with her son were important.  I had intention to do so with ensuing visits after Prague.

Someone has mentioned that if you go on vacation and you do not like each other then you are stuck.  I am unsure how this is different than going to her home town.  Well I guess the difference was we still had Prague if nothing else.

I am one that is not much for "eating the elephant in one sitting" (I pray that Larisa never reads I used the term elephant anywhere near her!) so meeting only her first was just fine with me.  Then ensuing trips were spent with her and her "real life".  You are building a relationship and not making a transaction.  Each meeting (just as each letter, phone call, chat, etc.) built upon the relationship.

A getaway trip on first meeting is not dangerous.  Dangerous is too harsh of a word.  Risky...yes.  So is an in home visit.  So is a relationship with a woman from a different country and culture and language and...

It worked for us.

[Blues Fairy]

We'll just have to respectfully disagree.  I think a getaway on an early visit is dangerous.

And a home visit is more dangerous for the woman.  It's not easy to get rid of a guy she doesn't click with when he's made a journey specifically to visit her home town.  Volens-nolens she'll play a host: take him around, find him taxis and hotels, solve his other travel problems, spend her precious vacation time on a tedious "adventure" in her own town instead of a nice vacation spot, entertaining a man she barely knows.  And quite possibly not even knowing he's got a few backup ladies in the same area. 

[Ooooops]

And quite possibly not even knowing he's got a few backup ladies in the same area. 

Yep...   

[GoodOlBoy]

.........spend her precious vacation time on a tedious "adventure" in her own town instead of a nice vacation spot, entertaining a man she barely knows.  And quite possibly not even knowing he's got a few backup ladies in the same area. 

BF...this is exactly why I like having you nice FSUW here on RWD expressing your opinions.

Some of the "men" here on RWD might read your words and do a little "soul searching" and "self examination" before they are so quick next time to dish out advice to Newbies about Writing Many and Visiting Many RW when they go to visit one of the FSU cities.

IMO, this type of behavior (WMVM) seems self-centered, sneaky, callous and just plain rude towards the RW and seems not to take into account (or care about) her feelings in this whole process.

If a guy is using an Agency in country or coming with a sex tour group, then the FSU lady knows what she is getting into.  :evil:

But to write a lady for month's and then announce your arrival to her hometown and after you meet her bail (leave) and go to FSUW B, C, or D in her hometown.......well it is what it is. 

I also find it amusing that these same men would be completely bent out of shape if the RW they are visiting had a boyfriend in her hometown or was still writing other men and inviting them....."until a commitment was on the table".

I also think this is why we hear "howling" from members when somebody like myself suggests meeting in a "neutral site" (Thailand, Prague, Greece, etc.).

These same men know that you are making a "commitment" to one woman and at that point there is no backup plan or backup FSU women to find in a "true" neutral site.


GOB


BTW....This is also why I don't consider Moscow, St. Petersburg, Kiev, etc. "true neutral sites".

[ECOCKS]

Rick:

I understand your point here but...

Lets face the fact that when you first meet someone and ask them for a date, it's not a commitment. People often are dating others casually unless one or the other has pushed the relationship to the next level by asking for some commitment.

That said, the problem may be the definition of "many" in WMVM. I see nothing wrong with setting up dates with 3 or 4 persons during one's trip halfway around the world. Setting up dates with a dozen is extreme (IMO at least) and I never would consider this speed-dating/MOB tour system. It just is too alien for "my style" to make me comfortable.

[GoodOlBoy]

........That said, the problem may be the definition of "many" in WMVM. I see nothing wrong with setting up dates with 3 or 4 persons during one's trip halfway around the world. Setting up dates with a dozen is extreme (IMO at least) and I never would consider this speed-dating/MOB tour system. It just is too alien for "my style" to make me comfortable.

I agree, I also see nothing wrong with visiting many RW.........JUST AS LONG AS ALL OF THEM KNOW ABOUT EACH OTHER!! NO GAMES!!

Which by the way, you and I both know most decent RW with an ounce of self-esteem/self-respect will not tolerate or participate in such a charade.

I don't know about your wife ED, BUT.....My Marina would have told me not to bother coming to Omsk to see her if I informed her that she would be "competing" for me with 4 or 5 other RW. 


GOB