Ukraine-The Future

[Anotherkiwi]

hey jayH,

you‘re complaining about someone attacking you over the issue of
“...whether  I had ever been in Ukraine at that time."
change that sentence slightly to
“When was the last time I was in Ukraine”
and you basically have the essence of your “attack” against me

why complain about something and then turn around and do basically the same thing to someone else???

No, JayH isn't attacking the same way.  He's just wondering if your experience in Ukraine is recent enough to be relevant to what's happening NOW, not saying that you've been telling a pack of lies about living there at all (which is what happened to him).

[cc3]

It could take a generation..... or more.

My thoughts are the corruption can be better disguised and not so much out in the open. Businesses still will have to pay the bribes to get any licenses or paperwork needed. I still see the corruption both times this year...same as last year. I see no difference. Hopefully time will change thoughts and what is right, as someone said...its a mindset.

US corporations all pay bribes to local, state, and federal politicians and bureaucrats, except they call it "lobbying" and "political contributions", and it's totally legal currently.

[krimster2]

Anotherkiwi,
A point of view is a poor substitute for insight and understanding.  Anyone who tries to make a distinction between past and present in Ukraine, doesn’t understand either. 

[calmissile]

Doug, you are out in left field there with that statement. Please verify your statements with real judiciary. Don't mean to burst your bubble. Trust me, there's nothing that would make me so happy as to know what you just said is the reality.

It was not my intent to join a peeing contest.  It was only to offer my and my wife's personal experience up until a week ago.  In my first post I indicated that I had no personal knowledge about the top levels of government and the oligarchs.  It is/was our experience that the levels of corruption of local officials that affect peoples everyday lives.  To correct the corruption problem, it necessary to change the culture of ordinary people since it has been embedded in the culture for so many years.

It is our experience that this has already begun and is starting to have an effect.  With the clampdown announced  by the president, the local authorities, police, and judiciary have changed their behavior.  You may recall, civilians riding with the police to reduce the opportunity for bribes.  The fact that low level government civil servants are telling people to not offer bribes is a step in the right direction.  The culture is not going to change overnight, but it appears to us that it has started.

A month or so ago there was a list of names of hundreds of businessmen and politicians that were found to be corrupt and are barred from holding public office or their former government jobs.  Of course, it would be easy for someone to claim that it is all propaganda, but coupled with what we see at the local levels, it appears that change is under way.

As far as politicians and oligarchs, I have no personal knowledge so as far as I know BO's reports might be accurate.  In my opinion, toppling the corrupt oligarchs would be easier than changing the culture of the masses.  My wife was in business for over 12 years and is quite familiar with the the day to day corruption of the past.  For the past 1.5 years she has been through the ringer in Kiev courts.  She sees the changes that you used to be able to buy your way through.  Didn't work anymore!     

To show my support for a new Ukraine, I am eating a Roshen chocolate bar she just brought to me.   Yummy.   

[lonedrake]

I am eating a Roshen chocolate bar she just brought to me.   Yummy.   

I just ate one also. Very good.


 My take on the corruption is that it is changing some. The police are more learly of demanding bribes. Officials are concerned about bad press and consequences…..and lets not forget about what Right Sector can do. People know this and are becoming more vocal against corruption.

That said….my wife think Porshenko is just another crook and liar and needs to be shot before any real change can happen.

[AkMike]

I believe I read that there have been 28,000 fired or dismissed so far with this new Lustration Law.

[AC]

US corporations all pay bribes to local, state, and federal politicians and bureaucrats, except they call it "lobbying" and "political contributions", and it's totally legal currently.

 

[AC]

I just ate one also. Very good.


 My take on the corruption is that it is changing some. The police are more learly of demanding bribes. Officials are concerned about bad press and consequences…..and lets not forget about what Right Sector can do. People know this and are becoming more vocal against corruption.

That said….my wife think Porshenko is just another crook and liar and needs to be shot before any real change can happen.

Before people get too up in arms about "corruption" in Ukraine understand that it's been that way for about 300 years because their salary simply is not enough (not even remotely enough) to live on.  So yes many will get small bribes to get something done faster.  Most here would do the same -- had they been born and raised there and had no other way to support their families. 

The real problem is that some are probably much better than others at abusing their authority -- so yes Ukraine will eventually have a much better future provided they do move away from the bribe system.  It simply won't happen overnight.

[AkMike]

Right. I do feel  that they are on the right track at this point. 

 But I'll update after I get back there and see what it's like. 

[Anotherkiwi]

Before people get too up in arms about "corruption" in Ukraine understand that it's been that way for about 300 years because their salary simply is not enough (not even remotely enough) to live on.  So yes many will get small bribes to get something done faster.  Most here would do the same -- had they been born and raised there and had no other way to support their families. 

The real problem is that some are probably much better than others at abusing their authority -- so yes Ukraine will eventually have a much better future provided they do move away from the bribe system.  It simply won't happen overnight.

Despite the arguments between members on this thread, it does appear that everyone actually agrees with what AC has written.  Time is what's needed to change the mindsets of so many people - my worry is that Putin will do something drastic before enough time has passed.

[JayH]

Mikheil Saakashvili: Putin did not go to Kiev tanks. He will attack the new fifth column



http://www.pravda.com.ua/rus/articles/2014/12/5/7046580/

[Boethius]

An interesting analysis of Obama and Ukraine.  I don't agree with everything stated, but it is food for thought.


http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/will-ritter-obama-playing-the-long-game-against-putin-in-ukraine-374346.html

[lordtiberius]

The author of this article is wrong on so many levels.  Even Must will agree with me.  Obama is a zero on Ukraine.

[AC]

An interesting analysis of Obama and Ukraine.  I don't agree with everything stated, but it is food for thought.


http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/will-ritter-obama-playing-the-long-game-against-putin-in-ukraine-374346.html

excerpt
"Although Putin operates in a vastly different political system, he is no less rational than Obama, Britain’s David Cameron, or Germany’s Angela Merkel. He wants what he wants, but he also cares about how much he pays to get it. He understands fully that the West’s sanctions are only in the initial phase of damaging the Russian economy, and that the pain, both for the elites and the Russian population at large, is going to increase steadily over time if there is no peace settlement in Ukraine. The latest comments from all three of the above Western leaders indicate that they have no intention of rolling back the sanctions without real de-escalation from the Russian-separatist side in the Donbass war. 

The toughening situation for the Kremlin is further exacerbated by the recent stunning fall in global oil prices; don’t expect Obama to claim, or receive, any credit for this development, but the timing is certainly rather mysterious given how little oil prices had moved over the previous four years from a tight range near $100 per barrel."

[AC]

The author of this article is wrong on so many levels.  Even Must will agree with me.  Obama is a zero on Ukraine.

I would recommend that you go back and read the article more carefully.  The author is correct on a few points.

[lordtiberius]

Praising Obama cheapens the lives lost on both sides.

[Muzh]

Praising Obama cheapens the lives lost on both sides.

Step away from the keyboard and take your pills.

[AC]

Praising Obama cheapens the lives lost on both sides.

I am not praising Obama.  Read the article again.  Or don't.  The key point is that Crimea and Donbass were still voting with Ukraine, the Rada would not be Western leaning.  Is Obama responsible for this improvement?

[lordtiberius]

Step away from the keyboard and take your pills.

Stop having sex with men

[AC]

Stop having sex with men

So that's his problem!   

[mendeleyev]

While I'm no ardent Obama fan, and will never be so, he as handled this much as the author has described. I don't agree with every point, to be certain, but I can tell you from personal experience that the sanctions are working. In fact, the so-called "reverse sanctions" that Russia has directed at the West have done more to hurt everyday Russians than I would have expected.

Were the US to rush in with immediate lethal aid, it would give Russia every right to continue the patent falsehood that Maidan was an American invention, and that the events of Donbas are the fault of the USA. Russia could also then justify an escalation while pointing to American assistance. The West has wisely allowed other countries, such as Canada, to contribute more than Russia would ever countenance unanswered from Washington. There may come a time when this must change, but for now Angela Merkel, François Hollande, Stephen Harper and David Cameron are rotating with punches to give the Kremlin men headaches.

Putin is a strong man, but not necessarily a strong leader. He continues to shoot himself in the foot at home and the near abroad. His pronouncements that Kazakhstan isn't really a country, and that Russia may seek to right the loss of territory there, not only mirrors his rhetoric on Ukraine, but appears to be pushing President Nazarbayev closer to the West. Another nervous Nelly over Putin's recent foot-in-mouth gaffs is Lukashenko of Belarus. If Putin alienates either, or both, then the grand scheme of a Eurasian Economic Space ("Customs Union") will be history.

His diatribe at Minsk was that the EU had not come with hat in hand and asked Russia's permission to invite Ukraine to an association agreement. Hello? Are you serious? Since when did Kyiv need to get your permission to seek economic alliances?!

He must also be careful at home. His announcement that the next phase of rapid modernization of the military will come courtesy of the Social Welfare Fund was stunning, at least to anyone with a brain. Translation: "I am going to raid your retirement savings to build the military." See how long that lasts with the Babushka brigade.

Prime Minister Medvedev's analysis that the 2015 budget was based on projects with oil around $100 per barrel is also interesting. The Kremlin's plan to gradually dismantle/reform the national health system in favour of direct payments for purchase of insurance by 2025 is ahead of schedule when you look at funding, or rather escalated decreases in funding. That 2025 projection was also based on the price of oil remaining stable. Translation: "We haven't made much progress in the diversification of the general economy, so be prepared for cuts in social funding, coupled with inflation."

[Belvis]

Putin is a strong man, but not necessarily a strong leader. He continues to shoot himself in the foot at home and the near abroad. His pronouncements that Kazakhstan isn't really a country

I did not expect Mendy turns into a plain propagandist. I  will not translate here  what Putin said about  Kazakhstan but forgery of his speech is obvious. I wonder if Mendy made it  himself or just was deceived by US media.

His diatribe at Minsk was that the EU had not come with hat in hand and asked Russia's permission to invite Ukraine to an association agreement. Hello? Are you serious? Since when did Kyiv need to get your permission to seek economic alliances?!

No, Kiev doesn't need the permission from Moscow for  economic alliances. So now it's time for Kiev to pay in $ cash on market prices for gas, coal, electricity. Also let now EU think about who will buy Ukrainian industry merchandise.
By the way EU seems to express displeasure toward Turkey and recommend her to slow economic ties with Russia. Are EU officials serious? Since when did Ankara need to get their permission to seek economic alliances?!

[mendeleyev]

I wonder if Mendy made it  himself or just was deceived by US media.

I don't have a lot of contact with US media. Perhaps it the Russian media that you should worry about.


In the meantime, Mr. Putin might care to explain his comments to President Nazarbayev, who was fairly blunt in Kazakh state media when he responded to Putin's remarks by saying: "Kazakhstan will not join an organization (Eurasian Customs Union) that is a threat to our independence. Independence is our greatest fortune."

[Belvis]

I don't have a lot of contact with US media. Perhaps it the Russian media that you should worry about.

In the meantime, Mr. Putin might care to explain his comments to President Nazarbayev, who was fairly blunt in Kazakh state media when he responded to Putin's remarks by saying: "Kazakhstan will not join an organization (Eurasian Customs Union) that is a threat to our independence. Independence is our greatest fortune."

You mean Russian media distorted the Putin's words? 
You again have misrepresented, now Nazarbaev's words. He repeats this frase last two years, and context of this particular talk kept no reference to Putin.
Mendy, you raised the issue that was discussed and investigated in Russia and Kazakhstan, and only liberal jornalists are trying to make fools of their readers.
It is enough to give the full speeches to see what leaders wanted to say.

[Faux Pas]

I did not expect Mendy turns into a plain propagandist. I  will not translate here  what Putin said about  Kazakhstan but forgery of his speech is obvious. I wonder if Mendy made it  himself or just was deceived by US media.

Ahhhhh, so it is frowned upon in Russia to take fact, turn it into fiction and broadcast it as fact? I see.