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Online krimster2

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Closed Cities
« on: October 21, 2016, 01:36:08 PM »
jone,

FYI, There are two types of Soviet “closed cities”, closed to foreigners, and closed to Soviet citizens. Dnipropetrovsk was the first kind, closed to foreigners only and NOT to citizens of the USSR.

You must allow me to tell you how ardently I admire the breadth and depth of Boethius’s knowledge of Ukraine!  IMHO, Boethius has a much deeper level of experience of Ukraine then the rest of this board put together, and I say that as someone who lived in Crimea for 3 years and have been visiting Ukraine since 1996.

In so far as your attack of Boethius is concerned, her statements are factually correct.  So your attack against her is misplaced and based upon your mis-interpretation of an on-line source, vrs Boethius’s likely first hand experience of visiting Dnipropetrovsk, or personally knowing someone who did during the Soviet period.   

I would certainly hope you would be a gentleman, and offer her your heart-felt apology for being wrong about this issue!

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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2016, 01:37:07 PM »
Boe, why do you do this to yourself?  You make pronouncements as if you were the authority for the forum.  Many other people on the forum know things too.  Your statement that Dnipropetrovsk was not a closed city is flat out wrong.

Closed city

This section needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (January 2015) (Learn how and when to remove this template message)
As early as July 1944, the State Committee of Defense in Moscow decided to build a large military machine-building factory in Dnipropetrovsk on the location of the pre-war aircraft plant. In December 1945, thousands of German prisoners of war began construction and built the first sections and shops in the new factory. This was the foundation of the Dnipropetrovsk Automobile Factory.[citation needed]


The city's 'Gorky' Theatre of Russian Drama was constructed during the Stalinist period.
Joseph Stalin suggested special secret training for highly qualified engineers and scientists to become rocket construction specialists.[citation needed]

In 1954 the administration of this automobile factory opened a secret design office with the name "Southern" (konstruktorskoe biuro Yuzhnoe – in Russian) to construct military missiles and rocket engines. Hundreds of talented physicists, engineers and machine designers moved from Moscow and other large cities in the Soviet Union to Dnipropetrovsk to join this "Southern" design office. In 1965, the secret Plant #586 was transferred to the Ministry of General Machine-Building of the USSR. The next year this plant officially changed its name into "the Southern Machine-building Factory" (Yuzhnyi mashino-stroitel’nyi zavod) or in abbreviated Russian, simply Yuzhmash.[citation needed]


SS-18 Satan missile by Yuzhnoye Design Bureau
The first "General Constructor" and head of the "Southern" design office was Mikhail Yangel, a prominent scientist and outstanding designer of space rockets, who managed not only the design office, but the entire factory from 1954 to 1971. Yangel designed the first powerful rockets and space military equipment for the Soviet Ministry of Defense.[citation needed]

In 1951 the Southern Machine-building Factory began manufacturing and testing new military rockets for the battlefield. The range of these first missiles was only 270 kilometres (168 miles). By 1959 Soviet scientists and engineers developed new technology, and as a result, the "Southern" design office (KBYu – as abbreviated in Russian) started a new machine-building project making ballistic missiles.[citation needed] Under the leadership of Yangel, KBYu produced such powerful rocket engines that the range of these ballistic missiles was practically without limits. During the 1960s, these powerful rocket engines were used as launch vehicles for the first Soviet space ships. During Makarov’s directorship, Yuzhmash designed and manufactured four generations of missile complexes of different types. These included space launch vehicles Kosmos, Tsyklon-2, Tsyklon-3 and Zenit. Under the leadership of Yangel’s successor, V. Utkin, the KBYu created a unique space-rocket system called Energia-Buran. Yuzhmash engineers manufactured 400 technical devices that were launched in artificial satellites (Sputniks). For the first time in the world space industry, the Dnipropetrovsk missile plant organised the serial production of space Sputniks. By the 1980s, this plant manufactured 67 different types of space ships, 12 space research complexes and 4 defense space rocket systems.[citation needed]

These systems were used not only for purely military purposes by the Ministry of Defense, but also for astronomic research, for global radio and television network and for ecological monitoring. Yuzhmash initiated and sponsored the international space program of socialist countries, called Interkosmos.[citation needed]


The unfinished 'Parus' hotel on the embankment has become a symbol of poor economic planning in the Soviet era.
On the eve of the collapse of the Soviet Union, KBYu had 9 regular and corresponding members of the Soviet Academy of Sciences, 33 full professors and 290 scientists holding a Ph.D. They awarded scientific degrees and presided over a prestigious graduate school at KBYu, which attracted talented students of physics from all over the USSR. More than 50,000 people worked at Yuzhmash. At the end of the 1950s, Yuzhmash became the main Soviet design and manufacturing centre for different types of missile complexes. The Soviet Ministry of Defense included Yuzhmash in its strategic plans. The military rocket systems manufactured in Dnipropetrovsk became the major component of the newly born Soviet Missile Forces of Strategic Purpose.[citation needed]

According to contemporaries, Yuzhmash was a separate entity inside the Soviet state. After a long period of competition with the Moscow centre of rocket construction of V. Chelomei (a successor of Koroliov) Yuzhmash rocket designs won in 1969. Since that time leaders of the Soviet military industrial complex preferred Yuzhmash rocket models. By the end of the 1970s, this plant became the major centre for designing, constructing, manufacturing, testing and deploying strategic and space missile complexes in the Soviet Union. The general designer and director of Yuzhmash supervised the work of numerous research institutes, design centres and factories all over the Soviet Union from Moscow, Leningrad and Kiev, to Voronezh and Yerevan. The Soviet state provided billions of Soviet rubles to finance Yuzhmash projects.

Officially, Yuzhmash manufactured agricultural tractors and special kitchen equipment for everyday needs, such as mincing-machines or juicers for peaceful Soviet households. In official reports for the general audience there was no information about the production of rockets or spaceships. However, hundreds of thousands of workers and engineers in the city of Dnipropetrovsk worked in this plant and members of their families (up to 60% of the city population!) knew about the "real production" of Yuzhmash. This missile plant became a significant factor in the arms race of the Cold War. This is why the Soviet government approved of the KGB’s secrecy about Yuzhmash and its products. According to the Soviet government’s decision, the city of Dnipropetrovsk was officially closed to foreign visitors in 1959. No citizen of a foreign country (even of the socialist ones) was allowed to visit the city or district of Dnipropetrovsk. After the late 1950s ordinary Soviet people called Dnipropetrovsk "the rocket closed city." Only during perestroika was Dnipropetrovsk opened to foreigners again in 1987.


You make these assertions without looking up the facts.  I had read a book on the history of making the rockets in Dnepro, so I knew its history.


I clarified, I meant closed to Soviet citizens.  Those are the only cities I followed.  Look that up.  Dnepropetrovsk was never closed to Soviet citizens, who could travel there freely.


But thanks for the condescension. 
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline jone

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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2016, 02:05:52 PM »
Boe,

I put up a generous post that Dnepro probably wasn't proletarian because of the high concentration of Scientists.  It says in the article that I posted that up to 60% of all of the people in the city were the best and brightest the Soviet Union could produce.    As a side note I mentioned that it was a closed city. 

Closed city to Americans meant no foreigners.  The standard for 'Closed City' even today.  Thus the references.  But everyone who has been to Dnepro knows this.  Have you been there? 

You refuted my claim with baseless information.  You stated that the city was not a closed city.  What reason you brought up Kuchma is beyond me.  Yes.  He was a scientist from Dnepro who later became a leader in Ukraine.  But that had no bearing on my post.

For those reading this, Dnepro had special privleges if one lived there.  While the Soviets may have named it a communist haven, it was, more or less, the think tank for Soviet scientists.  Not your run of the mill proletariat cities, like the other ones she mentioned.  Having lived in Mykolaiv, I can tell you that this city does build ships and did build ships and that most of the people are Joe Sixpack types.  Not the type that you find in Dnepro.

That anyone would dare challenge the sanctity of your posts is why I responded.

It is not my condescension that you should worry about. 

« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 02:10:40 PM by jone »
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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2016, 02:40:57 PM »
Boe,

I put up a generous post that Dnepro probably wasn't proletarian because of the high concentration of Scientists.  It says in the article that I posted that up to 60% of all of the people in the city were the best and brightest the Soviet Union could produce.    As a side note I mentioned that it was a closed city. 


What makes you believe a high concentration of scientists means a city is not "proletarian"?  Where do you think those scientists came from?  It was not enough in the USSR to be brilliant to enter university.  You had to come from the working class.
Quote
Closed city to Americans meant no foreigners.  The standard for 'Closed City' even today.  Thus the references.  But everyone who has been to Dnepro knows this.  Have you been there? 

Every city was closed to a foreigner in Soviet times, unless the foreigner had a visa for that city.  That was the case up to the collapse.  So particular cities that were closed to foreigners had, and has, no meaning to me. 

If one had a visa for Kyiv, for example, it would specify the days in which the foreigner would be in Kyiv.  Each city a foreign tourist visited would have the days in which the foreigner was in that city listed in the visa.  Typically, there would be a one day leeway from the days the foreigner was in a city (on a tourist visa, usually) for travel. 

Having lived in Kyiv in Soviet times, and having had to travel to Moscow, I can attest to the fact that obtaining that visa for another city was a bureaucratic nightmare.  You were questioned on the purpose of your visit at OVIR.  You had to pay for your ticket, and, if staying in a hotel, for that room, in foreign currency at inflated prices.  You had to submit your passport and all your Soviet documentation. Any request could be denied, and you never knew why.

Travel outside any area in your visa without permission was cause for arrest and expulsion.  Lots of foreign students made this mistake, typically, those from the disapora, and that was a way to expel them from the country.  I was often offered trips to other areas, and the reason was to catch me outside my visa.

Lots of places were off limits to foreigners.  Ukrainians who visited relatives, for example, were prohibited from travelling to their ancestral villages.  There was no ability to receive visas to visit.  Were those "closed" as well?  Technically, yes, though not cities.  But you won't find it on wikipedia.  The odd Ukrainian, usually a senior citizen, would ignore the ban and go to the village.  They usually figured that there was nothing authorities would do to them, other than expel them, and they were usually only in the country for two or three weeks.  The only downside was, you would be denied further visas to the USSR. 

By 1987 or so, travel became easier for foreigners.  In 1990, I had a six week visa for Kyiv.  I still had to go to OVIR to get a visa for Moscow, and to travel outside the city of Kyiv (my husband wanted to go fishing), but it was much smoother.  I was questioned on the reason for wanting to visit those regions, left my passport, and in 3 days, came back to pick up my passport and revised visa.  As I was on a private visa, I was also able to pay for my ticket to Moscow in rubles.

For most FSU individuals, the status of a city closed to other Soviets would have been more important than those closed to foreigners.  The vast majority of Soviet citizens had little or zero contact with foreigners, even in large cities.  To work with foreigners required background checks going back through your ancestral line to Rurik (before you start googling that, note, it is hyperbole for effect, though familial lines were, in fact, investigated for undesirable foreign elements), and that included everyone, including those who swept floors in Intourist hotels.

Quote
You refuted my claim with baseless information.  You stated that the city was not a closed city.  What reason you brought up Kuchma is beyond me.  Yes.  He was a scientist from Dnepro who later became a leader in Ukraine.  But that had no bearing on my post.

And I clarified, when HoundDaddy posted, that I meant to Soviets.  You still felt a need to "correct" me.

Kuchma - just a trivial fact, as he was the head of Yuzmash, the rocket factory there.  BTW, he was an engineer, not a scientist, but left that very early in his career to become a bureaucrat.   
Quote
For those reading this, Dnepro had special privledges if one lived there.  While the Soviets may have named it a communist haven, it was, more or less, the think tank for Soviet scientists.  Not your run of the mill proletariat cities, like the other ones she mentioned.  Having lived in Mykolaiv, I can tell you that this city does build ships and did build ships and that most of the people are Joe Sixpack types.  Not the type that you find in Dnepro.

No, Novosibirsk was the think tank for Soviet scientists.  And yes, there is a strong proletarian culture in Dnepropetrovsk, as there was in Novosibirsk.  Evidently, you do not understand what this is.

Quote
That anyone would dare challenge the sanctity of your posts is why I responded.

Anyone can challenge anything I say.  Do you note my avatar? 
Quote
It is not my condescension that you should worry about.

Oooh, what should I worry about?  You have me running scared, LOL.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 03:22:34 PM by Boethius »
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Online krimster2

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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2016, 03:19:25 PM »
Dnipropetrovsk is an industrial city of around 1 million population.  I passed through there some time ago, to me it has a “gritty vibe” that was closer to a Detroit or Milwaukee (from the 1970's) and definitely NOT a Silicon Valley. Dnipropetrovsk Oblast is where most of Ukraine’s iron ore is located, so this gives rise to a number of blue-collar type industries.  As a result, Dnipropetrovsk is heavily polluted.  I think the only city more polluted than Dnipropetrovsk is Donetsk.  Yes, there are thousands of engineers and scientists who work at Yuzmash (which is barely hanging by a thread these days...), but out of a population of 1 million they are a pretty small minority compared to the many, many times more factory workers, etc. who work there, Based on its outward appearance I would DEFINITELY call Dnipropetrovsk a proletariat city!  In Ukraine, there is also not a great deal of cultural difference between someone who works as an engineer and someone who works as a factory worker, their incomes are similar and so are their social patterns, I base this on my own experience of extensive socializing with Ukrainians of “mixed” educational and career backgrounds.  This is what Boethius is trying to explain to you!

BTW, want to have fun in “Dnipro”  go hang with these guys “http://vk.com/dneprzabr”
Awesome, I did a lot of “Bunker Diving” with one of the guys in this group, and lived!!


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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2016, 03:25:19 PM »
Quote
In Ukraine, there is also not a great deal of cultural difference between someone who works as an engineer and someone who works as a factory worker, their incomes are similar and so are their social patterns, I base this on my own experience of extensive socializing with Ukrainians of “mixed” educational and career backgrounds.


Exactly.  Everyone was the working class, unless they were peasants or part of the "undesirable element" that the working class had not managed to eradicate in the past. 
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline jone

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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2016, 03:46:33 PM »

The term 'closed city' is still in use today.  I just called one of my Russian friends and asked what a 'Closed City' was.  He said that the term was used that no foreigners were allowed.  That is the same terminology that Wikipedia uses (LOOK AT THE TITLE OF THE SUB-ARTICLE ABOVE) and, to my knowledge, everyone but you on the planet uses.  So, in your efforts to correct me, you were, yourself, incorrect.  Not unusual.

HoundDaddy was also correct in that members of Soviet empire were also not allowed in Dnepro.  We're talking East Germans, etc.

Your great knowledge of Ukraine does not include visits to Dnepro, or you would have refuted me when I asked it. But then you never would have made your assertion when you started.   Again, you have no idea.   You're just spouting off because someone caught you out....again.   You have a habit of trying to talk your way around things.  The scientists (and engineers) were treated better than, say, a shipyard worker.  Again, anyone reading this would think it silly that you argue that they were on the same level.  Having been there, and knowing members of this forum who have been there, people from Dnepro still think they're special.  Patagonie, who married a woman from there and I compared notes many moons ago.  While he did not specifically say that these people weren't proletarian, he would argue (and we can ask him) that there is still a sense of entitlement there from the specific history of building the nation's (Soviet Union) rocket program.

Funny thing, when I met women from Dnepro, one of the first questions I always asked is if they were a rocket scientist.  There was always a smile.  One of pride. 

So, once again, I ask you why you insist that Dnepro is on the same level of say a Mykolaiv?  Because in the end, with the forum as a jury, I am willing to bet a Canadian nickel that the majority would all say that a closed city is that which is closed to foreigners and that any city that has sixty percent of its people working on the Soviet Rocket Programs would be of a higher caliber people than those with what you call proliterain influences.  Occams Razor strikes again.

Amazing how convoluted you try to make these disagreements.  All of this from a friendly observation.   :rolleyes:

From Wikipedia:

An article on Soviet Union Closed Cities:

Ukraine

Ukraine had eighteen closed cities: among them the Crimean port of Sevastopol and the industrial city of Dnipropetrovsk, though both were restricted to foreigners, not locals. Travel restrictions were lifted in the mid-1990s.



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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2016, 03:47:27 PM »
Dnipropetrovsk is an industrial city of around 1 million population.  I passed through there some time ago, to me it has a “gritty vibe” that was closer to a Detroit or Milwaukee (from the 1970's) and definitely NOT a Silicon Valley. Dnipropetrovsk Oblast is where most of Ukraine’s iron ore is located, so this gives rise to a number of blue-collar type industries.  As a result, Dnipropetrovsk is heavily polluted.  I think the only city more polluted than Dnipropetrovsk is Donetsk.  Yes, there are thousands of engineers and scientists who work at Yuzmash (which is barely hanging by a thread these days...), but out of a population of 1 million they are a pretty small minority compared to the many, many times more factory workers, etc. who work there, Based on its outward appearance I would DEFINITELY call Dnipropetrovsk a proletariat city!  In Ukraine, there is also not a great deal of cultural difference between someone who works as an engineer and someone who works as a factory worker, their incomes are similar and so are their social patterns, I base this on my own experience of extensive socializing with Ukrainians of “mixed” educational and career backgrounds.  This is what Boethius is trying to explain to you!

BTW, want to have fun in “Dnipro”  go hang with these guys “http://vk.com/dneprzabr”
Awesome, I did a lot of “Bunker Diving” with one of the guys in this group, and lived!!

I think the most polluted city is Chernobyl!!!

But in terms of 'dirtiest', got to be Kryvyi Rih. Next I would say Mariupol( as a friend called it one time ' a cesspool').
You are right Krimster, almost all cities are in Dnipropetrovsk and Donetsk regions.
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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2016, 03:51:01 PM »
Dnipropetrovsk is an industrial city of around 1 million population.  I passed through there some time ago, to me it has a “gritty vibe” that was closer to a Detroit or Milwaukee (from the 1970's) and definitely NOT a Silicon Valley. Dnipropetrovsk Oblast is where most of Ukraine’s iron ore is located, so this gives rise to a number of blue-collar type industries.  As a result, Dnipropetrovsk is heavily polluted.  I think the only city more polluted than Dnipropetrovsk is Donetsk.  Yes, there are thousands of engineers and scientists who work at Yuzmash (which is barely hanging by a thread these days...), but out of a population of 1 million they are a pretty small minority compared to the many, many times more factory workers, etc. who work there, Based on its outward appearance I would DEFINITELY call Dnipropetrovsk a proletariat city!  In Ukraine, there is also not a great deal of cultural difference between someone who works as an engineer and someone who works as a factory worker, their incomes are similar and so are their social patterns, I base this on my own experience of extensive socializing with Ukrainians of “mixed” educational and career backgrounds.  This is what Boethius is trying to explain to you!

BTW, want to have fun in “Dnipro”  go hang with these guys “http://vk.com/dneprzabr”
Awesome, I did a lot of “Bunker Diving” with one of the guys in this group, and lived!!

Yeah, the lack of money placed into the Yuzmash is apparent.  But your experiences and mine do not parallel.  There is a very great pride in that city.  That's what I was referring to.  It is an industrial town, built around Yuzmash.  And there is no longer the same standard of living which in Soviet times was exceptional.  During that time it attracted everyone who could prove themselves to be of high caliber. 
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Offline jone

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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2016, 04:02:45 PM »
jone,

FYI, There are two types of Soviet “closed cities”, closed to foreigners, and closed to Soviet citizens. Dnipropetrovsk was the first kind, closed to foreigners only and NOT to citizens of the USSR.

You must allow me to tell you how ardently I admire the breadth and depth of Boethius’s knowledge of Ukraine!  IMHO, Boethius has a much deeper level of experience of Ukraine then the rest of this board put together, and I say that as someone who lived in Crimea for 3 years and have been visiting Ukraine since 1996.

In so far as your attack of Boethius is concerned, her statements are factually correct.  So your attack against her is misplaced and based upon your mis-interpretation of an on-line source, vrs Boethius’s likely first hand experience of visiting Dnipropetrovsk, or personally knowing someone who did during the Soviet period.   

I would certainly hope you would be a gentleman, and offer her your heart-felt apology for being wrong about this issue!

I will give apology where apology is due.  I generally put up that Dnepro was a closed city and she corrected me.  The apology was due me.  She didn't.

As for her having traveled to Dnepro.  I asked her.  She evaded the question.  Like you, I have traveled there.  And I have lived in Ukraine.  I know what the crappy cities look like. 

First thing that pops into people's minds is that a closed city means closed to foreigners.  That is what I put in my original post.  Are you going to apologize for Boe?  Or do you kiss her feet?

There are, to my knowledge, actually three standards of old closed cities.  The first is closed to foreigners of Western persuasion.  The second was closed to foreigners but also part of the Soviet hegemony.  The third was closed to anyone from outside of the city, including nationals. 

Having met some of the nicest and classiest people I know from Dnepro, I will say without reservation that they are not nekulturny.  But then you may travel in different social circles.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 04:05:50 PM by jone »
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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2016, 04:13:36 PM »
Dnipropetrovsk is an industrial city of around 1 million population.  I passed through there some time ago, to me it has a “gritty vibe” that was closer to a Detroit or Milwaukee (from the 1970's) and definitely NOT a Silicon Valley.

Silicon Valley  :ROFL:   Is there anything in Ukraine resembling such?

I liked Dnepropetrovsk.  It had a human scale, some attractive areas, a few good architectural examples, and was much cleaner than other cities.   It was much better than nearby Zaporizhya, where a prime sightseeing stop is the hydroelectric  dam and the air has a metallic odor. 

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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2016, 04:20:33 PM »
Silicon Valley  :ROFL:   Is there anything in Ukraine resembling such?

I liked Dnepropetrovsk.  It had a human scale, some attractive areas, a few good architectural examples, and was much cleaner than other cities.   It was much better than nearby Zaporizhya, where a prime sightseeing stop is the hydroelectric  dam and the air has a metallic odor.

Gotta confess, Gator,

I was wondering the same thing when I read that.  Actually, Milwaukee is a beautiful city with a terrific lakefront. 
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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2016, 05:56:39 PM »
“Silicon Valley  :ROFL:   Is there anything in Ukraine resembling such?”


I’m sorry, but I don’t quite get the reason for the antagonism and ridicule that’s being displayed here.  IMHO, the most similar colloquial US English equivalent of “proletariat” would be “blue-collar”, so I will use this word for clarity .  The conversation was in reference to the idea if Dnepropetrovsk was more elevated and less blue-collar due to its population of scientists and engineers, my analogy to an equivalent US city with a high population of scientists and engineers would be Silicon Valley, and to me Dnepropetrovsk ain’t Silicon Valley!  The closest city I’ve seen in Europe that compares to Silicon Valley was Toulouse, France, though obviously despite some superficial similarities there are HUGE differences.  Silicon Valley is anti-blue-collar.  Because of Silicon Valley’s success, it has led it to have a high cost of living, and blue-collar jobs and industries as well as residents have left Silicon Valley in large numbers.

“ Actually, Milwaukee is a beautiful city with a terrific lakefront.  “

And since heavy industry has been pulling out of Milwaukee for decades it is entering a period of decay just like Detroit and Dnepropetrovsk.  However, Milwaukee is overwhelmingly a blue-collar town (think Pabst Beer!) And whether or not a city is blue-collar or otherwise is a separate issue from its visual appeal. I happen to like Dnepropetrovsk’s river views and the downtown Soviet architecture.  There are parts of Detroit and  Milwaukee that I find visually appealing, but that has no direct connection to any of them being or not being a blue-collar city.

Jone, your exact words, “For years it was a 'closed' Soviet city.” You don’t specifically mention to whom it was closed, but since calling it a Soviet city is somewhat redundant, you’re awfully close to calling it “For years it was a closed TO Soviets city”, and I can see where the lack of clarity would be confusing to the reader.

“There are, to my knowledge, actually three standards of old closed cities.  The first is closed to foreigners of Western persuasion.  The second was closed to foreigners but also part of the Soviet hegemony.  The third was closed to anyone from outside of the city, including nationals.  “

The third type was not really for a “city” but for a specific location, like a nuclear bomb storage depot, factory or research center. 

Also, the regulations pertaining to closed cities changed from time to time, my wife grew up in a closed city, and some years her family had to present documents to return to their home when coming back from vacation and some years not.

“Or do you kiss her feet?” 

Why this comment?  I have a great deal of respect for ‘Bo, her experience derived from living in the USSR during the Soviet period, gives her a level of knowledge that I don’t think you can appreciate or even understand, so when her views based on this level of knowledge and experience differs from your own, you perceive it as a threat, so you attack her.  So you turn an opportunity to learn something, into a battle over your bruised ego, now I ask you, would a “real man” do that?

BTW, I think what ‘Bo was trying to tell you is that ALL cities in the FSU are proletariat, regardless of the presence of scientists and engineers

 





 


Offline Boethius

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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2016, 05:57:05 PM »
I assumed because I'd clarified for HDL, who posted before you did, that it was clear I was referring to Soviet citizens, not foreigners. 

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=21311.msg448032#msg448032

Most Soviets would not know which cities were closed only to foreigners, unless they lived there, I think.

I didn't skirt around the question on Dnipropetrovsk, I think it is irrelevant.  But since you must have an answer, yes, I have been to Dnipropetrovsk.  Twice, a very long time ago, with a client.  I had a client with significant business interests in Ukraine, and it was a city (or rather, a business environment) the CEO was exploring.  During the last years of Yushchenko's presidency, that client won an appeal in Ukraine's Supreme Court against the Ukrainian government.  I viewed that as a positive step, but I'm not certain it would happen today.

Travel with that client was, shall we say, interesting.  All of our meetings were at the very top levels, and we were ferried about in Bentleys, belonging to the oligarchs he knew/was doing business with.  The travel, and the FSU contacts, was not something I enjoyed but I was there to work.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2016, 11:11:20 PM by AnonMod »
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2016, 06:08:38 PM »
BTW, I think what ‘Bo was trying to tell you is that ALL cities in the FSU are proletariat, regardless of the presence of scientists and engineers

Yes, although some were more proletariat than others, what I would call "hardcore" proletariat.  Donetsk, for example, was "hardcore" proletariat, as were Zaporizhia, and Mykolaiv.  The latter, founded by Prince Potemkin,  \was an important port and shipbuilding city which housed several naval academies (four, I believe) before the Revolution.  During the Revolution, the majority of the city's occupants, either military cadets or sailors, supported the Whites.  Many fought across Ukraine, and those remaining in the city eventually were slaughtered by the Bolsheviks.  Many also escaped, settling mostly in France.

Mykolaiv also had a large Jewish population, most of whom were slaughtered during WWII.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2016, 06:33:21 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline jone

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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2016, 08:42:54 PM »
So we go from the idea that women who married members of the forum are informers to now this standard archetype for gutter girls coming from Ukraine to now that all Ukrainian cities are proletarian.  We just can't keep up with your disparaging comments. 

If this is what it means to have ultimate knowledge of Ukraine, then I guess I'll have to stop reading and interfacing.

Quite honestly, I'm tired of this.  I used a standard statement.  It was put up and contested.  You people can exchange love thoughts with each other.  My statement stands that Dnepro was a closed city.  That is verified by the posts people other than me have made to Wikipedia and other collection centers for knowledge. 

As for your (collective) proletarian ideas, I would say that you can think what you want.  I really don't care.  My view of Dnepro is a good one.  And will continue to be so, especially when compared to some of the other cities.

Krimster, ultimately, the reason that we go to Eastern Europe is that we love the people.  I find it offensive to those who constantly find ways to demean them as has been done on this forum by the citations above.  But YMMV.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline Boethius

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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2016, 09:32:01 PM »
One other thing - my husband's views would be even less "diplomatic" than are mine or krimster's.
The last time we were together in the USSR, he knew that the system was going to collapse, and he'd be leaving within a year (he was off by 2 weeks).  At that time, he said that notwithstanding everything he'd endured, his homeland would always be his, that the country, the city, and the people coursed through his veins, both the good and the bad, and he rejected none of it or them, and he was happy to have seen it all.   



After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2016, 09:54:08 PM »
Jone,
   I would urge you to not allow yourself to posses such an unhappy disposition over such trifling disagreements.  It has been mutually established that the fair city of Dnipropetrovsk was a city closed to all non-Soviet citizens (from 1944–1987), although I would imagine exceptions being made to a few former Peenemünde “raketniki” in the early days of Soviet Rocketry development, and so forth.  So in essence we are all in agreement over this fact!   

To say that all Ukrainian (Soviet) cities were proletariat, is not in any way a disparaging or insulting remark, but a statement of the reality of the universal social system imposed by the Soviet dictatorship.  Above the proletariat were the Nomenklatura and the Apparatchiki, some of whom turned into oligarchs after the collapse of the USSR.  However, IMHO their existence didn’t diminish the proletariat nature of the FSU, but actually reinforced it! 

All the statements made by me and by ‘Bo were an attempt to enlighten you that the presence of a few engineers and scientists (the intelligentsia), who with their families likely made up less than 5% of the total population of Dnipropetrovsk, really didn’t alter the social fabric very much, if it all, as you claim they did. 

I’m glad you like Dnipro, I did as well, I spent hours walking along the river and chatting with strangers, many of whom seeing I was a foreigner wanted to know my “story”.  It’s not my intent to denigrate any of the “common people” I met in Ukraine, but I do expect to be allowed to speak the truth as I have seen it, and which you are also allowed and even encouraged  to do.

It is inevitable that from time to time that our opinions based on our experiences will be different from one another's. As a result, we may disagree about some particular subject as we have done here.  I would prefer to maintain the happy flow of ideas and allow any contradictions to be worked out by their own merits and not by some form of ad hominem attack, which is after all by its basic definition a logical fallacy.  So using this approach, besides being IMHO unjustified, does nothing to bolster the validity of your own statements, but actually lessens them!
So if you find fault with my ideas, then I encourage you to offer up your own and let sweet reason prevail!
   

 




Offline calmissile

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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2016, 12:05:48 PM »
Unfortunately, the only formerly closed city I got to visit was Balaklava in Crimea.  It houses the former top secret Soviet Underground Submarine Base.  It is unfortunate that I will not be able to visit again.  According to my wife's girlfriends in Crimea, the city is once again a closed city, including civilian Crimean residents.

I wonder if Russia is building something new or secret there again?
Doug (Calmissile)

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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2016, 02:22:34 PM »
I hadn’t heard anything about Balaklava reverting once again to being a closed city.
This recent article from Sputnik news suggests otherwise:

http://sputniknews.com/russia/201610151046363042-crimea-italy-business/

There was some talk in the Duma a year or so ago to make Sevastopol once more a closed city, but it looks like it didn’t get enough support.  I guess the new Russian oligarchs have business interests in these locations.

Balaklava wouldn’t be able to support modern ballistic missile submarines which are huge in comparison to the “Rome” and “Whiskey” class diesel boats built in the 1950‘s when Balaklava was opened.

Offline calmissile

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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2016, 02:41:37 PM »
I hadn’t heard anything about Balaklava reverting once again to being a closed city.
This recent article from Sputnik news suggests otherwise:

http://sputniknews.com/russia/201610151046363042-crimea-italy-business/

There was some talk in the Duma a year or so ago to make Sevastopol once more a closed city, but it looks like it didn’t get enough support.  I guess the new Russian oligarchs have business interests in these locations.

Balaklava wouldn’t be able to support modern ballistic missile submarines which are huge in comparison to the “Rome” and “Whiskey” class diesel boats built in the 1950‘s when Balaklava was opened.

Certainly contradicts what we were told.  It is good news. Do you know if the sub base is still open to visitors?

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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2016, 02:46:49 PM »
as far as I know, yes...

Offline JayH

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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2016, 07:41:42 PM »
Certainly contradicts what we were told.  It is good news. Do you know if the sub base is still open to visitors?

The submarine base is closed to visitors.
Areas around military bases( all over Crimea) have been expanded to exclude.The paranoia is on the extreme end of the scale with the backward looking morons.

One of the difficulties is that the Balaklava  area is a very attractive are for development (tourism) so while the neanderthals are running the show-who knows?
 
The idea of closing to entire city was mooted by the morons after the invasion as they sort to ingratiate themselves with the Russian hierachy.

Sevastopol Debates Becoming Soviet-Style "Closed" City

The city government of Sevastopol has proposed that Russia make it a Soviet-style "closed" city, which foreigners and even Russians living even in other parts of the country would not be able to visit.

On July 22, members of the Sevastopol legislative assembly formally appealed to Russian President Vladimir Putin and other Russian officials asking them to impose "restrictions on the stay of people not permanently residing in and not registered in Sevastopol." The annexation of Crimea to Russia earlier this year was accompanied by a remarkable degree of Soviet nostalgia, but the return of closed cities takes that nostalgia to an unexpected extreme.
http://www.eurasianet.org/node/69191
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2016, 10:11:35 PM »
Jay,
   The link you provided is over two years old, and since that time Sevastopol has most definitely NOT become a closed city, nor has Balaklava, a week ago a contingent of Italian entrepreneurs were visiting Balaklava, and tripadvisor.com has reviews of Balaklava by foreigners that were made just a month ago!

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Re: Closed Cities
« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2016, 11:04:12 PM »
All the statements made by me and by ‘Bo were an attempt to enlighten you that the presence of a few engineers and scientists (the intelligentsia), who with their families likely made up less than 5% of the total population of Dnipropetrovsk, really didn’t alter the social fabric very much, if it all, as you claim they did.     


Today, I asked my husband if Dnipropetrovsk was a proletarian city.  His response was "hardcore".  I asked him about the scientists and educated there.  He said that they were a very small number, probably less than 1,000 individuals in total.  But what about the rocket factory, I asked. He said that components were put together there, and though there was some design there, anything of significance was designed in Moscow.  He said that Moscow never trusted Ukraine, and this was more so after Shelest.  He explained that anyone with real talent, in any field, eventually was moved to Moscow.  He said that is why, as director of the factory, Kuchma reported directly to Moscow, not to Kyiv.  It's also, he said, why Ukraine has not progressed the way, say, Poland has.


He also told me that Soviets could visit closed cities (to clarify, I of course mean cities closed to them), if they received permission in advance.  The reasons were only either work related or to visit family.

After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

 

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