Ukrainian plane crashed flying from Tehran

[Chelseaboy]

I see Moby was calling this a "wack-job theory " earlier in this thread.

Does he get ANYTHING right ?

[calmissile]

With the evidence overwhelming, it would have made them look even worse if they continued to deny it.  They blamed it on a mistake or error of personnel operating the system.  Naturally, they also blamed the US for pissing them off and creating the environment that caused the 'mistake'.

Sort of a laughable excuse.   All of the missile launches were from the Iran side and there were no 'incoming' projectiles to take action against.  Furthermore, the radar system at the launch site would have shown a target DEPARTING the likely target area (Behran) and furthermore it was climbing in altitude, not incoming.

In my mind this shootdown of a civilian airliner is most likely NOT the result of a coordinated, regimented command and control protocol as used by most militaries.  If Iran allows its weapons system operators to act as 'loose cannons' on their own, then no nation should allow commercial flights into Iran airspace.  Can you imagine the risks if they get nukes?

[BillyB]

With the evidence overwhelming, it would have made them look even worse if they continued to deny it. 

Would Iran admit fault if there wasn't so much video and photo evidence floating around? Now that they admit fault, will they do the right thing and compensate families of the victims? Iran said they will prosecute all personnel involved in this mistake. Those guys killed more Iranians than Trump. Heads will be coming off. Trial will be quick. News at 11.

  If Iran allows its weapons system operators to act as 'loose cannons' on their own, then no nation should allow commercial flights into Iran airspace.  Can you imagine the risks if they get nukes?

What if the radar mistakes a crow for a stealth bomber and they send a nuke missile after it? They'd be eating crow, well done.

[jone]

Wow,

I never thought I'd hear myself say this.  But it appears that Iran has a more responsible government than the Soviet Union  Russia.

Putin still can't admit that Russian forces shot the MH17 flight out of the sky, even though everyone knows they did it.

[jone]

,,,and the wack job 'theories' begin using The Sun as 'validation' ?   

Perhaps some folks need to heed the words of the Ukrainian President ?

The Sun: 1

Moby:  0

[msmob]

Wow,

I never thought I'd hear myself say this.  But it appears that Iran has a more responsible government than the Soviet Union  Russia.

Putin still can't admit that Russian forces shot the MH17 flight out of the sky, even though everyone knows they did it.

Correction:

Putin can't admit that a RU BUK from Kursk ended up in Ukraine and was used by Ukrainian dissidents who just might have been aided by RU personnel on a day off .... THAT is as close as we'll ever get to the truth ..and we WILL ..

The Sun: 1

Moby:  0

Moby READILY concedes the Sun called it right 

[BillyB]

Ukraine wants compensation and punishment for the downing of their plane. They'll be facing some heat themselves. History, especially Ukraine's, shown accidental shootings of passenger jets happen in areas where two opposing militaries are aggressive towards each other.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-demands-punishment-compensation-for-airliner-downed-by-iran/ar-BBYQIQW?ocid=spartanntp

[BillyB]

Iranians are protesting their government for lying to them. Initial statement by Iran was that the plane wasn't struck by a missile. Of course they knew from the beginning a missile was missing from their missile launcher. Fortunately Iranian citizens are allowed to have smart phones so photos and video evidence were able to get shown worldwide within seconds to pressure the Iranian government to fess up. Last November the Iranian government used tear gas and live ammunition for crowd control. Estimated 1500 died. Wonder what they'll use for crowd control this time?

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/protests-erupt-in-iran-after-military-admits-downing-ukrainian-passenger-jet-death-to-the-dictator/ar-BBYRlhI?ocid=spartanntp

[Gator]

In my mind this shootdown of a civilian airliner is most likely NOT the result of a coordinated, regimented command and control protocol as used by most militaries.  If Iran allows its weapons system operators to act as 'loose cannons' on their own, then no nation should allow commercial flights into Iran airspace.  Can you imagine the risks if they get nukes?

100% agree.  I mentioned this in another thread.  "Coordinated and regimented command" are not part of their general nature.   

I am flabbergasted that Iran admits guilt.  I consider this admission a watershed event. 

The pressure against Iran is mounting:   this horrible mistake, growing demonstrations in its cities, suffocating sanctions, loss of its brilliant military leader for proxy wars..  Maybe they will see the need to explore more moderate goals.   

[msmob]

Gator,

As you know, really..

The Iranian people are not the extreme 'rag heads' a lot of less bright readers here and elsewhere might think.

The govt is already under pressure and THAT was the plan for the Nuke deal.... To bring moderatiin to the table.


This was a country that was close to another bloody revolution, recently...as the govt tuned off the smartphones of the leople for their own good.

The need to blame America for being trigger happy is not as bizarre as a  one might think, bearing in mind the heightened state of alert.....the Iranians expected ' a response' to the missiles they fired at Iraq.

There were a lot of jumpy folk manning defensive installations and it would be interesting to know how a north west flying airliner that was ascending got labelled a 'target'...


The fact that it carried SO many Iranians made it inevitable that the truth would get out.

My hope is that this might bring about cracks in the diversionary bollox the Kremlin has tried to feed the world re MH-17 on 17th July 2014.






 

[BillyB]

The need to blame America for being trigger happy is not as bizarre as a  one might think, bearing in mind the heightened state of alert.....the Iranians expected ' a response' to the missiles they fired at Iraq.

It's okay for Iran to expect a response and be on high alert but Iranian leadership was stupid. It takes 3 minutes to set up a Tor missile system. After set up, when a target is acquired, it takes seconds for the operator to launch a missile. Missile systems around Tehran were set up and prepared for war able to attack anything that moved within seconds. Military commanders or anybody above them who knew America could retaliate should have notified civilian airports to cancel flights right after they began attacks into Iraq.

[ML]

I think airline managers themselves have some responsibility here also.

I am pretty sure that if I were in top management of an airline, I would be abreast of current news and would say:  Hey . . . we are going to suspend all flights to area X until . . .

[BillyB]

I think airline managers themselves have some responsibility here also.

I am pretty sure that if I were in top management of an airline, I would be abreast of current news and would say:  Hey . . . we are going to suspend all flights to area X until . . .

It's possible the Iranian government and the Iranian airline industry reassured foreign aviation companies that it's safe to fly in their skies and the problems with America is in Iraq. Regardless, the American aviation industry banned all American companies from flying in Iranian skies.


We as individuals have a responsibility for our own safety. If I and/or my family were about to fly over hostile skies like East Ukraine or even possibly fly over suspected hostile skies due to the situation in Iran, I would cancel and get out of the country by ground vehicle.

[msmob]

Ukraine had suspended military flights in Donbas due to the new toy the 'DNR' had been using to shoot down their kit, so it was indeed surprising that international flights still used that route and UA hadn't closed it.

[msmob]

It's okay for Iran to expect a response and be on high alert but Iranian leadership was stupid. It takes 3 minutes to set up a Tor missile system.

The simplest check will show that the UIA flight lasted....3 minutes..

[BillyB]

The simplest check will show that the UIA flight lasted....3 minutes..

Are you're saying they were not ready to attack anything because the missile system was in peacetime status not ready to fire at anything? It takes 3 minutes to set up the Tor system so if it's not set up, the radar isn't even working to detect flights coming out of the airport. The Iranian government admits their military was on high alert which means The missile systems were set up and radar turned on which allows their military to kill anything within seconds.

[BillyB]

British ambassador arrested in Tehran. It was a another mistake by Iranian authorities. They can't seem to do anything right. They were trying to arrest organizers/leaders of protests around the country and the ambassador just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jan/11/british-ambassador-arrested-at-demonstration-in-tehran-reports

[msmob]

BillyB, quoting the Guardian after The Sun..)))

[Gator]

Gator,

As you know, really..

The Iranian people are not the extreme 'rag heads' a lot of less bright readers here and elsewhere might think.

There is a growing class of educated people who want change and are frustrated by their government.  However, the masses are undisciplined if not frenzied, and the country has not embraced modernity. 

An example from my life there.  Traffic jams in 1977-78 Tehran were horrendous (and maybe still the same).  The UN retained transportation consultants from Britain to conduct a study.  The consultants counted traffic, measured street widths, etc.  Their conclusion, the installed infrastructure was adequate for the traffic volume.  The manner in which people drove created the problems (always trying to sneak ahead of the other driver, not waiting for traffic light to turn green, etc.).   The police used the "law of the bumper" to decide fault for traffic accidents (the driver whose bumper was ahead was not at fault). 

Contrast that traffic situation with Bangkok.  In my two years in Tehran I never saw a queue. 

 

The govt is already under pressure and THAT was the plan for the Nuke deal.... To bring moderatiin to the table.

Agree, that was the goal.  Just like the plan that Iraq would embrace democracy after Saddam was overthrown.  Instead of moderating, Iran stepped up its proxy wars.  Who knows what they were doing in secret? 

This was a country that was close to another bloody revolution, recently...as the govt tuned off the smartphones of the leople for their own good

.

Yes, there were demonstrations, yet small compared to the groundswell that overthrew the Shah.

The need to blame America for being trigger happy is not as bizarre as a  one might think, bearing in mind the heightened state of alert.....the Iranians expected ' a response' to the missiles they fired at Iraq.

I agree capping Soleimani precipitated the Iranian missile attack, and the Iranians thought their attack would precipitate an American response.  If we are talking about a chain of events, we could point fingers at the Mossadegh episode, or even the Russio-Persian wars.  We could blame God.   NO!  Truman had it right, "The Buck Stops Here."   In this case,  the Iranian missile team all the way up to the Supreme Leader.

There were a lot of jumpy folk manning defensive installations and it would be interesting to know how a north west flying airliner that was ascending got labelled a 'target'...

Mistakes happen, and people with an undisciplined nature are more prone to make mistakes.     

The fact that it carried SO many Iranians made it inevitable that the truth would get out.

Good point. 

My hope is that this might bring about cracks in the diversionary bollox the Kremlin has tried to feed the world re MH-17 on 17th July 2014.

Dream on.  Putin is a murderous thug.  Compared to what else he has done, a lie is nothing.   

[BillyB]

BillyB, quoting the Guardian after The Sun..)))

You conceded to the Sun. After you fail to prove the British Ambassador wasn't arrested, you should concede to the Guardian since they reported accurate news like the Sun did.

[msmob]

There is a growing class of educated people who want change and are frustrated by their government.  However, the masses are undisciplined if not frenzied, and the country has not embraced modernity. 

There was in the fifties, sixties and up to the late seventies - some of them helped depose the western sponsored Shah and his Savak

An example from my life there.  Traffic jams in 1977-78 Tehran were horrendous (and maybe still the same).  The UN retained transportation consultants from Britain to conduct a study.  The consultants counted traffic, measured street widths, etc.  Their conclusion, the installed infrastructure was adequate for the traffic volume.  The manner in which people drove created the problems (always trying to sneak ahead of the other driver, not waiting for traffic light to turn green, etc.).   The police used the "law of the bumper" to decide fault for traffic accidents (the driver whose bumper was ahead was not at fault). 

Not JUST Iran...  I've been to a few countries where the Mule was replaced by a car / van / truck and the mentality has yet to catch up  !

.

Yes, there were demonstrations, yet small compared to the groundswell that overthrew the Shah.

How do we know that ?  Most western nations film crews are banned

I agree capping Soleimani precipitated the Iranian missile attack, and the Iranians thought their attack would precipitate an American response.  If we are talking about a chain of events, we could point fingers at the Mossadegh episode, or even the Russio-Persian wars.  We could blame God.   NO!  Truman had it right, "The Buck Stops Here."   In this case,  the Iranian missile team all the way up to the Supreme Leader.


Mistakes happen, and people with an undisciplined nature are more prone to make mistakes.

USS Vincennes ? ((

 

Dream on.  Putin is a murderous thug.  Compared to what else he has done, a lie is nothing.

He is a poor man, and it's always a Chechen that is found guilty of eliminating a thorn in the side ...

[BillyB]

Black box tells the story. Iran to compensate families of victims. Over 20 Iranian protestors sentenced up to 20 years in prison for their crimes. Does anybody know if those who were involved in firing the missiles were charged with crimes?

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/iran-says-black-boxes-from-downed-ukraine-jet-show-missiles-hit-25-seconds-apart/ar-BB18h10O?ocid=spartan-ntp-feeds