Kiev in January

[gaspar227]

So everyone was on me about 'taking action' and I thought about it a lot.  I mean money is always something to think about, but so is time. I was thinking of waiting until Spring sort of like Trench was talking about, but then again I'm not going to see the friggin city.  There's no time like ASAP. 

The romantic trip RW posted (fiction or not) sure made a summer trip to Odessa sound great.  But if I'm really after a woman, I'm thinking the best way to sort out some of these things in my head and to see for myself what it's like over there is to just do a commando trip and make something happen.

I can pull a 3 vacation day payout for 5 days on the ground (2 travel days don't count) in Kiev.  I have 2 or 3 very attractive ladies that I could meet there.   I also have the potential to pull another trip together in Feb.   I would be really pushing my vacation and $ thin, potentially limiting a late summer trip or a follow up trip based on successful trip 1 at that time as I'm also doing 2 weeks in German/Netherlands on unrelated family trip in May.

This would cost me about $2K each trip, again I can float it, but obviously $4k is $4k.

I'm posting this to invite comments about the feasibility and advice for this trip.   I'm really thinking about focusing on one woman, but since my trip will span a weekend +/1 a couple days, it would not be difficult to say I have only Thurs/Friday leaving Sat to one, Sat/Sun leaving monday to another and monday/tuesday leaving wednesday (really leaving wed) to another.  Or any sort of combination thereof.

NOW...I am NOT good at juggling girls as a rule.  This would probably make me feel like crap as I know that these women would be traveling from Sumy or Luts'k or Donetsk to Kiev and I know that's not easy.  BUT it would just as likely make me feel like crap to go all that way and NOT have a connection with the one I thought I did or who I guess I would say is the most anxious to meet me, and leave the opportunity to another for another trip.

I can pull it off probably if juggling is the best answer (which I'm definitely talking myself into more and more as I post).  I mean I know 2 girls, but there's a 3rd that I would really like to meet. 

Worst case, however, is they all go amazing and now I've got 3 girls thinking that things are going really well.  2 of them have small kids too that they would be keeping at home for the trip etc.  I know all's fair and I realize I might get trashed for being a shit, but I don't really want to waste my time or have a bad trip. 

I get the feeling that if I don't pull a trip off things won't progress very far with these women.  They are eager to meet, and I think there are various reason for this.   

So the main concerns I have: 

1.  Is January just too shit of a time to go.
2.  Should I do the many or one girl for a first trip.
3.  Should I do two trips close together, or just do one and wait/digest the trip until the Summer?

And yes, i over think stuff -- otherwise I wouldn't even be on this forum! 

Thanks guys.

[calmissile]

Gaspar,

You face the same dilemma that most men (including me) felt before making plans for my first visit.  We do tend to overthink and over-plan things especially when coming from the US and all the expenses involved including time off work.

From the 6 or so trips I made before marrying my wife, if I had to do it over again I would take the following actions and have the following attitude.

I would have some contacts to meet in person and tentative casual dates lined up.  Nothing serious planned.  I would plan on using much of the time being on vacation and an adventure learning the culture, meeting locals and making friends.  My personal interest was to explore the various WWII sites that abound Ukraine and Crimea.  That can be done either alone or with your date(s).  It is valuable to make friends, get phone numbers, addresses and have contacts for future visits.

Many, if not most of us initially had the idea of going to RU/UA and picking out a Barbie Doll and whisking her off to our homeland.  Let me make it PERFECTLY CLEAR!  In real life, it does not work that way.  First of all, it takes a lot of time together and nurturing to pick a compatible mate that you will be happy with for the rest of your life.  That will usually involve multiple trips and constant communications after the mutual decision is made to pursue a long lasting relationship.  This is going to take a lot of your time and MONEY before you are done, not to mention all the bureaucratic hurdles you will face with visas, permits to enter your home country, etc.

The two most common failures I have seen are:  Failure to recognize that you may have to meet and get acquainted with several women before you find one that is mutually compatible.  Second, is the real costs in money that is involved in this process from beginning to end.

As several members have expressed recently on the forum, when you are successful, it is a very rewarding experience.  There is nothing like having a wonderful, loving, dedicated, FSU wife!  Finding the right one is no different that finding the right one in one's home country.

Good luck.

[Trenchcoat]

Yes January is a shit time to go it will be cold bleak and miserable there whether in Kiev or Odessa, etc. I go end of March beginning April and it's only just about decent then. Imagine trying to wait outside to get into a venue, it peeing down and only shopping centres and indoors attractions. Imagine walking around the city with a girl shivering, etc.

Visit One us probably best first time, you will be best served by a solid genuine girl. Skype with her before going. Kiev is not like a European City it has touris attractions but us not set up for tourists like Foreign cities. A good girl will be your best tour guide. Visit many girls will be too much of a burden that you will unlikely want in a short time period.

Also, forget girls from Donetsk - she is NOT going to run across a hail of gunfire between two rival armies to get to you, lol.

[alex330]

So the main concerns I have: 

1.  Is January just too shit of a time to go.
2.  Should I do the many or one girl for a first trip.
3.  Should I do two trips close together, or just do one and wait/digest the trip until the Summer?

Kyiv is brutal in January. But go, tickets are cheap and you have nothing to lose. As far as juggling multiple women many here advise doing what you would do at home. I always dated one woman. But in this international endeavor I strongly advise having a backup plan. Do the one trip to start and see what happens.

[LAman]

 Nothing wrong with a trip venturing to FSU at any time but you must be aware of the elements. Very cold in winter so not much to do outside. Must dress properly gloves, scarfs, head gear, thermals and jacket with layers. Shoes are very important!!

Actually, this should be your main concern:

As for your idea of meeting multiple women, very hard on first(or any) trip, you don't know where anything is. And worst thing, you expect multiple women to come from different cities to meet YOU? Is that correct? Bad, bad idea.

Isn't it just simplier to go meet one you are most interested in? Remember, you only have a few days, what 5? That is very short for such a long trip. This past trip in summer I was in Kiev, Odessa, Poltava and Kharkov in a weeks time but I knew how and where to be already from previous trips( although my first time to Poltava).

[BillyB]

1.  Is January just too shit of a time to go.

Alex said you have nothing to lose but not true. Men have lost their virginity in Kiev, even in the cold month of January.

2.  Should I do the many or one girl for a first trip.

If you found a winner who's into you after enough phone calls and/or Skype sessions, it's okay to dedicate the trip to her but have a backup plan in case things go south. If you're not hitting it off with anybody and nobody is hitting it off with you, visit many. Even meet women on the street and get dates. Not hard to do.

3.  Should I do two trips close together, or just do one and wait/digest the trip until the Summer?

See what happens after the first trip before deciding on another. You may want to take that second trip weeks from the first if you found someone you like or you may never want to visit Kiev again.

[LAman]

Alex said you have nothing to lose but not true. Men have lost their virginity in Kiev, even in the cold month of January.

I always like when people speak from experience!!! ))

[Brillynt]

Also, forget girls from Donetsk - she is NOT going to run across a hail of gunfire between two rival armies to get to you, lol.

There are other ways for her to get to Kiev not crossing the fighting zone. My wife travels Kyiv to Lugansk on a 30 hour bus ride through Russia, to visit family. Last time was in October and cost about $20 USD each way. The bus departs on odd days ( 1,3,5,7,9, ...), the company has 2 buses traveling opposite directions.  People in the conflict areas still need to travel to other parts of Ukraine for many reasons. They pay a little extra, about 50 grivna,  at the border to "wink" pass through with no stamps "wink". Everyone on the bus has to pay or they can be stuck at the border doing all the bag checks and such for hours.

If the girl you are talking to is really interested then there are ways, she just has to look for special buses that travel different routes. Just realize that this is a major trip for her, so I would be sure that you are both interested before you invite her from Donetsk. For only a 3  days on the ground I don't think it would be a good idea for the girl, to be honest.

[Jumper]

If reasonable winter weather actually effects
meeting someone, then my opinion would be dont bother, you arent that into them yet.

Same is true in reverse, if  concerns over normal  weather  would make her second guess meeting you, then she isn't that interested ,yet.

It's as simple as wearing someone else's shoes?
If you lived in Minneapolis,  a  Tampa bay woman wasn't interested in visiting you over the cold.?. lol

If you have serious interest in her , go meet her.
Kyiv is a great city with tons of history.
The weather isn't  significantly different than Chicago as example.

I don't over think anything  though.
 I talked online,  on Skype, and the phone, to my now wife about 2 months. I then went and met her. The time of year would make no difference. If it hadn't worked out I would simply have done something else with my time, I certainly would not have moped around or felt I wasted my time. I'd have made a vacation out of it regardless.


On making back up plans, do what you are comfortable with.
I'm not  a fan. I can find plenty of things to do , or meet local women, if that's the only interesting thing.

[gaspar227]

I was just thinking about what it would be like, and i hear everything you guys are saying and appreciate it.  I think I'm going to wait until February and reevaluate a trip then if I still want to do a hasty trip.  January is just too close, and based on the input, my relationship is not there with anyone to justify dropping everything in 4 weeks and going.  We'll re-evaluate mid January and think about a trip in Feb.

I just sort of want to see for myself what it's like for real, but it is a big trip for 5 days on the ground which as many have said could be spent in better pursuits in both time and money than just going to be cold and possibly get stood up by a girl I don't know well enough.

I think it was Billyb that indicated on another thread the 10% thing and yes there are definitely areas for improvement I could make and be better prepared for a spring/summer trip!

It's a marathon not a sprint, and I need to just breathe I think.

[Davo2]

Since you have a few more months up your sleeve, sign up to Fdating.com ... I met a handful of genuine women aged 35-44 in the space of several days. After a week I left the site and have been talking to a woman  every day for 11 months. Next week she's arriving here for a two week  holiday.
Don't be too scared to spend time ensuring you have a genuine connection before you travel... Maybe not to the extent I have... 2000+  hours of  conversation. I updated the app we use to chat and reloaded 4 months of messages, which totaled  23,000 messages 

[Trenchcoat]

I think pushing it back is the right choice Gaspar but I would do at least until March. I doubt February will be a lot better weather than January. I've never been there in January (I think Wall & Bounder might off) but can imagine the weather to be harsh - very unpleasant. Kiev is a nice city but can be deary looking in bad weather. Think also of walking around with a girl with biting cold weather it's not something that is likely to be nice for either of you to endure. The streets there are very up and down sort of streets I personally don't think they make good picking up girls sort of area, most people are in a rush on there own mission walking along there. Few people linger along the streets there. Also there are few bars for individuals to pick up in Kiev city centre, most are restaurants & cafes aimed at couples & families. Odessa is much better for both open area pick up places & bars for individuals. Personally I find pleasant weather aids the enjoyment of a city, sure it's the girl that most aids the enjoyment of a place but having both is the best. I found around late March - early April just about bearable enough, not great but bearable. Later is better for enjoying Kiev as there is a lot of open air stuff to enjoy that you can't necessarily without warm weather, i.e the beach along the river, river cruises, pirokovo open air heritage village, looking around the Cathedrals, walking the streets of Kiev, etc. I definitely think you have made a good choice to just check it out but remember you want the best time while over there. Some guys here suggest any time of year but for some of us that could make for a miserable time. Also when atried at Borispol Airport unless girl is picking you up avoid the unofficial taxi touts as soon as you enter & exit the departure lounge. On exiting the departure lounge go for the official taxi's waiting on the taxi rank together pretty much right in front of the departures exit. They are on the meter and are a more sound and cheaper choice usually.

[Jumper]

I agree you'd want to wait until a decent connection  is made in most cases, whether that takes a few weeks , or months.

It's really up to you and your sense of adventure vs risk management lol ,as well as how you define  a worth while trip.

I have lived in eastern Europe, so traveling there on a whim never seemed any risk at all, and always worthwhile.  If I did so on a whim with little contact prior to meeting someone,  then it's an accepted scenario going in.
 With more communication prior ,both sides have a bit more expectation,  which is both a positive and negative, because end of the day face to face is the only real way to know anything.I still recommend having some connection with one person you really can't wait to meet.
Weather wasn't really a consideration.
My level of interest, their level of interest, and our schedules are what determined the timing of a visit.
 The weather in my area is the same as Ukraine, and a good bit of Eastern European,so it just doesn't factor in at all.
That would be as silly as not dating locally just because it's winter.Laughable here, and for me it was same if applied to 90 percent of the populated planet since it's the same or warmer.
  Obviously there is a bit more to do and see when the weather is nice, but if you connect with someone in October, I sure wouldn't wait until May just to be sure you have good weather.

As far as FSU culturally ,Jan 1 is the biggest holiday of the year , and anyone should see and experience New Years in the fsu at least once.

As a side note some have a superstition of who  they spend new years with, is who they will be with in life.Just a minor superstition mind you, not some cultural dictate lol


So, like most questions my advice is the same, base it on person.(which very much includes her level of interest in you)

Not the city,not the country,not the weather,
Not the ease or difficulty of travel.not the visa or no visa required.not the time of year.
On the person.
You arn't marrying anything else.

[Trenchcoat]

I think that's the thing some guys on here have a lot of experience out that way and/or are/were already connected in some way. I had none of that, for me my first time in Kiev was the furtherest east I had ever been. I had never been to the former eastern bloc nations even. So I think you have to bear in mind Gaspar when you arrive you will be met with a load of disheveled looking Ukrainian guys all assailing you for Taxi. Many of them will speak very basic few words of English and mostly speak just Ukrainian/Russian. Once you go/get to hotel you will be in a very strange looking city that is different looking to most western cities. You won't know where in the heck you are even in the city centre. If you get into any difficulties at any point such as getting stuck out in the middle of nowhere you will likely be there in sub-zero temperatures. Take this story from last year in Russia for example:

Link: http://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2431899/brit-found-dead-in-a-russian-forest-after-taxi-driver-spiked-his-beer-robbed-him-and-threw-him-out-of-the-car-in-10c-conditions/

Now it doesn't happen often but I think some people over there have mental health conditions, some are just criminals, most are nice and decent people but if you get the wrong one or make a mistake, i.e you take a taxi ride out a long way and than find you can't get a taxi back, your mobile phone battery goes flat, your girl walks out on you after you've taken a taxi way out and don't know how to call one, etc. All of these can be gotten over more comfortably in decent temperatures but in sub-zero or real low temperatures you could be in a uncomfortable position. I'm saying this as I think some people say stuff on here and don't really consider that a newbie can quickly get out of their depth if they are unfamiliar with the scene. Festive periods no doubt make the time of year a bit brighter out there though.

[msmob]

The first mistake Ternchy makes is always starting his  posts with "I think" and going on to prove he simply doesn't

Please pay no attention to his ramblings or suggestions - he hasn't got a CLUE about women in general and certainly his 'adviSe' re Donetsk sucks....

Trench - do you KNOW folks from Donbas / Crimea ? IF you did 0 you'd know that they can travel via Russia and can get permission from the UA govt to travel via Crimea to Krasnodar region

So, a lass from Donbas / Crimea should NOT be excluded - based on more bollox advice from the board's serial 'expert' in nought ..

[Anotherkiwi]

...So I think you have to bear in mind Gaspar when you arrive you will be met with a load of disheveled looking Ukrainian guys all assailing you for Taxi. Many of them will speak very basic few words of English and mostly speak just Ukrainian/Russian.

So do as you posted above - make sure that you get an official taxi!  The alternative, which is a lot simpler, is to book an apartment rather than a hotel, and arrange with the apartment/website manager for you to be collected from the airport and dropped off there at the end of your trip.  Of course you'll pay for it, but even you, Trench, can afford an extra 10 pounds or so to guarantee that you end up at the right place!

Once you go/get to hotel you will be in a very strange looking city that is different looking to most western cities.

Central Kyiv, at least, doesn't look that much different from most Western cities that I've visited.  And, even if it does, so what?  London looks way different from Auckland, but I didn't have a heart attack there - or in Moscow, Shanghai, Los Angeles or any other big city that I've been to.  Accepting the differences is part of travelling.

You won't know where in the heck you are even in the city centre.

Have you never heard of maps?  I'm told that you can even see them on your telephone now!  And, unlike a lot of other places, Kyiv has maps on boards or in shelters in plenty of public places.

Now it doesn't happen often but I think some people over there have mental health conditions, some are just criminals, most are nice and decent people but if you get the wrong one or make a mistake, i.e you take a taxi ride out a long way and than find you can't get a taxi back, your mobile phone battery goes flat, your girl walks out on you after you've taken a taxi way out and don't know how to call one, etc.

And how is ANY of that different from London?  People are people, the world over.  The sooner you accept that, the easier it might be for you to figure out what the hell you really want in life.

All of these can be gotten over more comfortably in decent temperatures but in sub-zero or real low temperatures you could be in a uncomfortable position. I'm saying this as I think some people say stuff on here and don't really consider that a newbie can quickly get out of their depth if they are unfamiliar with the scene. Festive periods no doubt make the time of year a bit brighter out there though.

This is about the only bit of half-decent "advice" in this post!  However, one would hope that any "newbie" going there, at any time of the year, has done at least some research on what to expect and how to get around.  The internet is a marvellous resource.

[gaspar227]

Hi guys.

As always the advice is appreciated.  I completely see where Trench is coming from on the whole on this topic...in a whole new world even experienced travelers may not be prepared for -- oh and btw -- you're not in Phoenix any longer!  It's -10, windy and nobody cares!  You need actual pants and boots why are you still in your sandals asshole!

So that advice is appreciated.  Even if you guys pick on Trench, I think he's just kinda trying to speak for us that may be trying real hard and it's not easy because even looking at a map -- WTF are those letters that's sorta an a but it makes a what sound???  I think back on my trip to Greece..just to visit the Acropolis, getting on a bus and not being able to tell what the bus stop was! 

I speak Spanish, I've traveled in Latin America, Spain, Italy all fine.  Driving around reading maps.  It's great.  I'm used to being able to at least somewhat pronounce a word...this was extremely frustrating in Greece!  And I get that I can be prepared, but no matter what, there are some skills that the experts take for granted that I simply don't have and testing them out on a first trip is nerve wracking! 

I love the idea of someone to meet you at the airport.  That wouldn't have come up necessarily without the comment.  So I kind of think of us all in this together.  I hope so anyway.

Enough said on that.  I'm not about being a complainer or coward here.  I"m going to make the best of whatever happens as someone suggested.  Even if i'm cold and the girls flake, there are still places to go where you can have some entertainment in Kiev.  This is easiest for me (aside from the 25 hours on a plane). 

BUT.  one of the things someone has suggested is to try and go to the girl.  Something someone else ALSO mentioned, and it may have been Trench, that there are some areas that are notoriously better or worse to find women in.  I COMPLETELY understand this is a gross generalization, and that even in Donets'k you can find quality women that are ready.  BUT are there areas that are harder to deal with...like logistics suck, or rail doesn't get there or something like this (outside of the rebel areas of course). 

Let's say the girl i mention at the bottom doesn't pan out and then say I met a girl from Sumy and she sounds pretty sweet.  I have some reservations (and remember this is preliminary) because she says she uses an interpreter and an internet cafe.  Her letters are not like the 'normal' fake letters where it looks like they are just putting your name in there somewhere.  They are well thought out (i'm sure by the lady writing them helping) But anyway, I know this still happens, and she's got a small child so she's saying she doesn't want to share her phone (viber) yet.  And maybe her connection is bad.  I can't imagine the angle of getting me to Sumy and then disappearing?  How would all the time and effort pay out, so I'm feeling OK about this.  10-15 years ago that's how everyone did it pretty much.  So it does work. 

Regardless....assuming that this were to pan out.  How would i even get to Sumy?  I think there's an airport in but no flights from Kiev (WTF?) there's a 5 hour train/taxi etc.  I mean is that the right approach, is there no right approach?  Is Sumy worth seeing outside of the fact that it's where my potential wife is from?  I have read that Sumy is a great spot because the girls are trying to GTFO before Russia takes another chunk.  But what about these other places like Cherkasy or Tsyurupyns'k?  I get that they are all unique with challenges, but has someone put together like a cheat sheet that I've just missed? like Cherkasy: lots of girls, but hard to get to and they hate to leave their mothers here?  Tsyurupyns'k:  All the girls are liars, they want you to buy them cell phones. 

Anyway I know I am not always saying things the right way or whatnot and I'm looking for hack answers to complicated and difficult questions.  In the end I really just want to make a good impression for the lady, this is about me in that I'm looking for a wife, but it's about her because in my mind this will be the most important woman in my life going forward.  I should respect her -- even the potentiality of her.  I will treat every girl like they are going to be my wife even if they are obviously not, they sacrificed a lot to get to see me right? 

From my perspective, if I bought a train ticket and setup a nice hotel... gave her her own room or whatever in Kiev, that would be a cool thing.  But is that too presumptious, would we both be walking around Kiev going ... what to do now (and shivering?) and she's just thinking i want to get home?  I mean I'm not thinking any of assumptions about anything are right!  If I met a girl online from nowhere'sville IL and we met in Chicago, I would do the same thing, and that would be cool because i know it's cool!  I get messed up thinking I know what to do and inevitably applying the wrong logic and getting into hot water. 

The last thing I want is to make this huge trip and go to her hometown and just hang out a couple hours after work though.  I mean it's got to mean something to both of us like you're saying, so suggestions about how to make it both special and safe-feeling for both of us is appreciated. 

PS...even after all of this, if I DO make a trip in Feb it would be to Odessa.  I really like this girl, but I know she's got a slightly shady past (which I've said many times I don't mind and even like).  It would definitely be a huge potential for a bummer situation, but also a huge potential for a RW trip situation (if you haven't read the trip report you should).  Except i can't stay for 3 weeks and it's not summer.  But looking at everything, I think Odessa is a better choice for this time of year, and it helps that I actually have real building relationship with this woman -- even if i'm a little wary.  I mean the video chats, the viber, everything is there.  But Dude...who knew that chicks could just be so fucking brutally honest about stuff and not even bat an eye.  I have found myself chuckling about things that people just won't say to your face here or even barely will whisper behind your back about and she's just all..."BLAM" and leaving me thinking...yeah she's right, that stings, but man it's cool she'll tell me.  --  then the next thing I know she's wondering who this other girl (my friend's daughter) is in this picture and what am I a dumbass for sending her a picture with a girl in it.  -- maybe a trip report to come soon after all -- or maybe I'll make the Odessa news by getting my ass kicked by a 5'2 ball of fire -- there's potential fireworks.

[Trenchcoat]

Gaspar, I think you need to get things straight in terms of what you're doing and where you're going.

The time you have got is not a lot so you can only really go to one city or you will just be doing travelling and little in the way of meeting. Kharkiv has an airport but you would still need bus/train to travel to Sumy. I think with the time you have Sumy would be too difficult both time wise and journey wise. Either Kiev or Odessa are easy by plane so I would go for either of them. Paying for a woman to travel to you is another option but it tends to go hand in hand with paying for her accommodation also. The danger of this is that you risk getting a holiday whore who is just interested in the vacation. It will be obvious to a girl from a town that is not favourable place to visit either due to distance, transport connections, conflict, undesirable area that a meeting in a place like Kiev or Odessa would be on the cards so some girls may just be after that. FSW tend to have no hang ups about you paying for a separate room for them, but if you don't really know her should you? I have gone this route in the past and to be honest with you its a mistake in terms of long term relationship. For some it might work out and it can be good in terms of having a woman on side as a tour guide to spend a pleasant time with in Kiev/Odessa, 'if' there is natural attraction then who knows. Personally I now agree with those who say visit her home city - if she is awkward about it let your position be known and move her down the list.

The example of the girl with the terp in Sumy is a good example of stuff that comes up. My concern with her is that if she is reluctant to get to Viber soon she may not be mature enough for a proper relationship. She will no doubt meet you but will she let you get close to her personal situation. The last girl I met did not want to Skype straight away until we messaged a bit because of her living/family situation. Fair enough I thought, we did after a short while and perhaps she did not want to waste a lot of time with potentially the wrong men on Skype, but I think she found it awkward with the family/living situation (she told me as much) and I think this later fed into her not wanting me to visit her home city. So I think she was being unrealistic in thinking she could conceal or minimise notice of a relationship and still have one, a bit like an adolescent child might do. So time over again I would be wary if anything like that came up again.

25 hours on a plane is a hell of a journey, its why I say Vladivostok or Siberia area is a good choice for you. If you happen upon a girl you really like in Ukraine you are going to be committed to that journey every time to see her. The best you could hope is that its a short romance before moving to US with you and she does not want to see her family often, lol. It tends to take some time so you could be in for a lot of journeying and of course the extra air fare expense each time. Ukraine while interesting in parts is not a great area for International dating, there's a lot more sorting the wheat from the chaff in my opinion. Its a place overrun with guys, mainly US and as a result is not as good a hunting ground. If you go for less hunted areas like Vladivostok or Siberia you will meet a lot better stock. I would if I were nearer that area.

RW kind of got lucky that he wasn't fleeced, its still a kind of weird trip report, lots of bollocks and bs from all the happenings going on I think. I wouldn't look to emulate it if I were you.

[Boethius]

RW didn’t get fleeced for the most part because he wasn’t looking at getting fleeced. He didn’t bat an eye at paying the foreigner price.

Trench, UW aren’t looking to go to Kyiv for a vacation. Proves again you don’t understand the mindset.

Sumy is 3 1/2 hours by train from Kharkiv.

You weren’t in a “relationship” with the woman who didn’t want to Skype with you.

[Trenchcoat]

You weren’t in a “relationship” with the woman who didn’t want to Skype with you.

Well we Skyped in the end a plenty it wast that she didn't want to Skype is was just not straight away. All depends what you call a relationship really I guess.

[Davo2]

Personally I now agree with those who say visit her home city - if she is awkward about it let your position be known and move her down the list.

Don't always view this as a red flag or a non genuine woman. It might indicate she's the opposite... A woman who's  respectful of her parents and children. She might want to ensure you're!!  genuine before she will let you visit her home.

The woman I've been in long correspondence with surprised me when she suggested we met out of Russia or in another city. I pondered this for several weeks and come to the conclusion she was uncomfortable having a man she had never met before around her family, despite on many occasions  passing my greetings onto her Parents and vice versa. It wasn't until I couldn't get time off work and invited her to visit me that it become clear, her dad is quite protective of her, and she didn't want to cause him any worry due to a foreign man coming to visit her, In fact it took her 2 weeks to build up courage and find the right time to discuss visiting me in my country. I think that's a great quality, she puts her parents feelings first.

Another point to consider is children. Recently I discovered her children had a hard time during their parents  divorce and are upset that  their father has a girlfriend. They have an agreement ATM that their children won't be exposed to new partners until they are emotionally settled. I know myself that you need to regard children's feelings also when starting a new relationship or even going on a basic date. I only brought one woman home to meet my kids out of the last 4 woman I dated and even then It was after a month of getting to know each other ... None have met my parents.

There are many legitimate reasons for a woman not wanting you to visit her city during your first meeting, it shouldn't always be seen as a negative. If you have only been corresponding for a month or so she may not feel comfortable sharing these reasons

[msmob]

.

25 hours on a plane is a hell of a journey, its why I say Vladivostok or Siberia area is a good choice for you.

There you go giving bollox 'advice', AGAIN...(

What IS the basis for such nonsense? You've not been to either of these places.

Only someone who doesn't want to pay attention or is (sorry) a fool would listen to Trench...

Think...why does he get 'beat up'?

If it was just his 'viewpoint' and no one was paying attention...there'd not be an issue...

This is a guy with seriously wacky ideas about women and conclusions following trips that he was told  would be folly....ANYONE followng on his 'advice'....caveat emptor !)

[Trenchcoat]

Don't always view this as a red flag or a non genuine woman. It might indicate she's the opposite... A woman who's  respectful of her parents and children. She might want to ensure you're!!  genuine before she will let you visit her home.

The woman I've been in long correspondence with surprised me when she suggested we met out of Russia or in another city. I pondered this for several weeks and come to the conclusion she was uncomfortable having a man she had never met before around her family, despite on many occasions  passing my greetings onto her Parents and vice versa. It wasn't until I couldn't get time off work and invited her to visit me that it become clear, her dad is quite protective of her, and she didn't want to cause him any worry due to a foreign man coming to visit her, In fact it took her 2 weeks to build up courage and find the right time to discuss visiting me in my country. I think that's a great quality, she puts her parents feelings first.

Another point to consider is children. Recently I discovered her children had a hard time during their parents  divorce and are upset that  their father has a girlfriend. They have an agreement ATM that their children won't be exposed to new partners until they are emotionally settled. I know myself that you need to regard children's feelings also when starting a new relationship or even going on a basic date. I only brought one woman home to meet my kids out of the last 4 woman I dated and even then It was after a month of getting to know each other ... None have met my parents.

There are many legitimate reasons for a woman not wanting you to visit her city during your first meeting, it shouldn't always be seen as a negative. If you have only been corresponding for a month or so she may not feel comfortable sharing these reasons

I think you probably have hit the nail on the head here Davo, even for a second or third, etc visit she might be unwilling I guess. I know some guys visit her first time and continuously after that but it probably depends on the woman and their circumstances. I think many guys like myself expect to visit girl in her home city but the girl may have what seems to her as genuine reasons for us not to as you highlight. I don't think a lot of the girls realize how this comes across to guys, that the guy will see it as a big problem - that he will take it as disinterest, non-serious, something to hide, etc. I think the girl probably assumes that the guy will want to meet her parents especially if going to a small city where there is little to do as why else is he coming. I think she probably doesn't want to risk it even if the guy says he just wants to see her/spend time with her. I think for reason gone into before on here by member that girl doesn't want to risk fallout from a relationship that goes south known to all as the moment a foreign guy turns up it will be big news to all she is in contact with or know her in her city.

I think a lot of relationships go south because of this difference of viewpoint on how things should be. As guys we think we rightfully should meet a girl in her home city and if she does not she is being deceptive/deceitful. The girl though it seems now is oblivious to this and thinks the privacy of her life should be guarded at all costs as number of priority and the guy will not have any problem with this. The nature of many FSW seems such that few back down from a position once they take it up so such a disagreement as this is difficult to get around without one backing down and if neither feels it at all prudent to then it can mean the end of the relationship.

The girl I last met I think this is probably the problem you highlighted Davo along with a few others I have gone into before. While I would be willing to work through some problems I think long term some of these would always persist and that would not make for an easy relationship. In terms of interests for example, I like exploring places on holiday she likes laying on the beach. Now I don't mind the beach as long as its not too hot (Cyprus was) but I think her constant draw to shops would always be a problem. We would be doing beach or perhaps looking around stuff then pass by shops which are unfortunately all too easily strayed upon and bam she would be in their then the torment starts. I kind of really want a girl where I can go into a shop buy her something I would like her to wear of my own wish to do so at a reasonable price on occasion and that is it she is happy with it/me. With the last girl though it would not be possible, it would be a mistake going anywhere near a shop with her let alone volunteering to buy her anything.

I think the situation you were in happens a lot in FSU dating Davo, it can take several week, months, possibly years even if ever to uncover what really are the goings on in her head behind some of those blunt statements that come out that are difficult for us guys to fathom the logic behind. I think FSU society, its values, particularly in Ukraine is pretty old school like way back in the day in western societies like in the fifties and before. We have long forgotten about these peculiar intricacies where in the FSU they still exist. Like some women not even wanting to step foot inside a Hotel they are dating in Ukraine with fear of being called a prostitute. I laughed so much when I heard that one, lol it seemed just so out there. So I'm guessing if they have that one they probably have similar conventions for a foreign guy visiting a girl/meeting her parents. I just don't think the girl at all realises how different western society is and that in the west all that went long ago but then again they did'nt have the same phases as we had in the west in the 60s, 70s and 80s i.e rebellious teens, rock n roll, hippie culture, feminism, career driven, etc. I think you've really discovered a great deal here Davo.

Also I think if there is a bit of an age gap them possibly the girl may not want to be sen around a lot with an older guy in her home town is another thought. I mean I  don't look real old, not really graying but even still a guy around 40 is is not going to look the same as a girl in her mid twenties age wise.

[gaspar227]

Vladivostok is about the same 18 hours vs 25?  I mean it sucks regardless. I think you could put a straight line bisecting the planet from most of these places!  The only real difference is I get to stop over in Korea instead of Munich for instance and that the prices actually 2X more to get to Vladivostok for whatever reason (I can get to Changchun China...near there for $900 but to get to Vlad.  $1800).  Crazy stuff.  Honestly if I was to go the pacific route I would rather meet in Phuket or Bangkok for the same price as going to Vlad. and stay at 5 star hotel, be warm and cheap AF, but that's sort of bringing sand to the beach LOL.  I digress. 

And all I'm saying about Trench is that his advice is not from a bad place, that there are perspectives.  Many of the things he says resonate with me because I don't know WTF I'm doing, and at least he's putting these scenarios out there for ya'll to pick apart.  And when he makes mistakes he owns it, which maybe will help me not make the same ones. 

Just to clarify, this was an either/or scenario.  It's interesting you guys mention the difference.  The girl in Odessa, who I am in very close communication with, was right on Viber.  I know she has a past, and I get the feeling she knows what she's doing.  But I also get the feeling she's burnt out of this and that she's recently kind of gone solo (if she was agency girl for instance).  That could all be part of the act, but from what I can see this would be a different level of complexity from the usual shenanigans. 

I only mention RW because he said some similar stuff about the girl he met.  She's 30 in like 3 months -- lives with parents.  IDK.  I totally totally agree that the RW trip report is very funky at times and incongruent.  I"m not looking to emulate it so much as I can see this girl's mom driving her to the airport and dropping off at the hotel and stuff.  See her knowing a ton of people in some of these areas. 

For instance, she suggested when I visit we stay at a hotel that I cannot find on any of the big sites (expedia/orbitz/etc) and you have to call to make reservations.  Is that weird?  I mean I look on google maps and don't see anything that looks like a hotel at the address, but who knows what the street view is.  I have been to hotels that look like a door and then it's amazing inside!  The website for the hotel is large and has many details but only like 6 rooms?  So it's like either a total shady deal, or a local secret.  If anyone wants to chime in here it is because maybe i'm just searching wrong.  :  http://dompavlovih.com/virtualnyy-tur/

Frankly I'm shocked RW didn't login and write a whole story about a voyage from Ukraine to Miami on a trawler he bought in Cypress to smuggle his girl and her cousin with the foot stump to the USA so that they could keep her dogs she loved and a surgeon he knows could fix the leg in a private clinic.  Then how he sold it to Colombians for enough profit to cover the whole trip because they are always looking for foreign registered boats to haul drugs in.  He had an eye for strange details!   

[msmob]

Vladivostok is about the same 18 hours vs 25?  I mean it sucks regardless. I think you could put a straight line bisecting the planet from most of these places!  The only real difference is I get to stop over in Korea instead of Munich for instance and that the prices actually 2X more to get to Vladivostok for whatever reason (I can get to Changchun China...near there for $900 but to get to Vlad.  $1800).  Crazy stuff.  Honestly if I was to go the pacific route I would rather meet in Phuket or Bangkok for the same price as going to Vlad. and stay at 5 star hotel, be warm and cheap AF, but that's sort of bringing sand to the beach LOL.  I digress. 

And all I'm saying about Trench is that his advice is not from a bad place, that there are perspectives.

Hmm, you are very kind... wiser guys with friends from the west coast of the America's or the Antipodes already knew that these flight tend to cost more - Trench - just proved he likes to give 'advice' - about stuff - he simply doesn't know diddly squat about - and it just keeps on happening ((

Many of the things he says resonate with me because I don't know WTF I'm doing, and at least he's putting these scenarios out there for ya'll to pick apart.  And when he makes mistakes he owns it, which maybe will help me not make the same ones. 

As you may - eventually learn - hopefully not to your cost - he REALLY doesn't know and his advice is just SO often plain incorrect.

Frankly I'm shocked RW didn't login and write a whole story about a voyage from Ukraine to Miami on a trawler he bought in Cypress to smuggle his girl and her cousin with the foot stump to the USA so that they could keep her dogs she loved and a surgeon he knows could fix the leg in a private clinic.  Then how he sold it to Colombians for enough profit to cover the whole trip because they are always looking for foreign registered boats to haul drugs in.  He had an eye for strange details!   

Do you mean Cyprus ?  Cypress is a kind of tree, right ?  - t'other is my former home- an island in the eastern Mediterranean Sea ! ...with lot's of RU speakers

You may already be under our Trenchy's 'spell' as most FSU W don't have such bizarre backgrounds