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Author Topic: The Propaganda War  (Read 407952 times)

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Offline Belvis

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #825 on: August 29, 2014, 04:06:48 PM »

Am I missing something when I say your Ukrainian cousins simply want to have  a better life.   Yes, their government has failed miserably to do such during their 20 years of independence, yet was Ukraine in those times really independent of old ways?  They want change, and it starts by having closer ties with Europe.   I believe that is the only difference between you and them.  We are not talking differing ideologies (Reds vs. Whites, Catholics vs. Protestants, etc.).

I understand that the goal of closer ties with Europe gave the impression that Ukraine may try eventually to become part of NATO, and that did rattle the cage of Kremlin and its concerns about border security.  Yet, I thought Ukraine still wanted to maintain a close relationship with Russia even as its European trade increased.

Am I missing something?    I ask you as an educated  human being in the modern world:

1.  How do you feel about Russian military killing your cousins, and vice versa? 

2.  Do you consider the Ukrainian government to be a form of Nazism?

3.  Do you feel that Russia should support the separatists with advisors, weapons and whatever else is needed to assure SE Ukraine becomes a New Russia?   

4.   Do you believe that the NATO satellite photos of Russian tanks in Ukraine are fabricated, and are actually taken from a computer game, or that Putin simply does not care what the world thinks?

5.  Do you feel that you are totally free to answer such questions?

1. We saw no evidence that Russian military killing our cousins and vice versa. Captured russian paratroopers did not use guns and even did not realize they are in Ukraine. We see the civil war at Donbass where Ukrainian side try to imagine their enemy as Russian soldiers because nobody like to kill own citizens. Of course, there are 2-3 thousand of russian volunteers (mainly from nationalists) and unknown number of military experts (pure guess). But there are also french guys among rebels (also nationalists), nobody will accuse France in invasion. Key factor is that Ukrainian citizens fight with Ukrainian citizens, and Russia is trying to settle the situation in own favor.
Of course, Russian people reject idea to employ military against Ukraine according to all polls. I must note that Crimea was not being considered as Ukraine in russian mentality.

2. Accusing of Ukrainian govenment in Nazism was a pattern of propaganda before president election. Now Nazism is used to mark only Ukrainian volunteer batallions, and I observe the solid reasons for that:


3. Yes, I feel that Russia should support the separatists with advisors and weapons to assure people of SE Ukraine will have chance to choose their own way of life. Putin proposed federalization as a way to keep Ukraine united while preserving russian influence there. Idea of New Russia (Новороссия) became popular after civil war raged across Donbass region. People at Donbass have right to decide without external pressure if they want to be Ukrainians, Russians or somebody else.

4. NATO presented not intelligence photos but photos taken by commercial cosmic body. They are not the result of military surveillance as I understood. Russian army is moving along Ukrainian border these days but I saw no firm proof that russian military columns crossed the border. World may think as media tells but world leaders base their decisions on more convincing evidences.
When russian army took scene in Crimea there were a lot of video and photo proofs, now only words in Ukrainian media.

5. The last question sounds funny if you mean Big Brother Watch. There is a barrage of critics toward Putin and Russia in russian social networks  :) Even Strelkov (former supreme commander of rebels) expressed his discontent toward Putin and russian politics in his forum of reconstructors.

Offline missAmeno

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #826 on: August 29, 2014, 04:24:34 PM »
Украина показала иностранным экспертам новейшее российское оружие, захваченное у боевиков

Ukraine showed to foreign experts the latest Russian weapons seized from militants

http://ru.tsn.ua/ukrayina/ukraina-pokazala-inostrannym-ekspertam-noveyshee-rossiyskoe-oruzhie-zahvachennoe-u-boevikov-383906.html

Offline Gator

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #827 on: August 29, 2014, 04:44:35 PM »
Belvis,

Thanks for sharing your views.  I do hope that Ukrainian regular combat units do not become engaged with Russian regular combat units.  Such would escalate the conflict  to an alarming level,  when something really stupid could happen as if this hasn't already gone too far.

Offline Gator

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #828 on: August 29, 2014, 04:47:20 PM »
Miss Ameno,  I wish I spoke Russian.   Nevertheless, I can grasp the general concept. 

Offline missAmeno

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #829 on: August 29, 2014, 05:15:53 PM »
I do hope that Ukrainian regular combat units do not become engaged with Russian regular combat units.

too late

Offline BillyB

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #830 on: August 29, 2014, 06:58:28 PM »
Well I wonder what was said between Putin and Poroshenko on Tuesday when they had some alone time.  What is Russia demanding?  Why isn't poroshenko cutting a deal? The alternative continues to appear very bleak. Was anything made public?



It's hard to deal with a person who stole your property and wants more. I would never think about stealing my neighbor's property but there are leaders, like Putin who are running nations and will use their muscle to get what they want. Putin got Crimea and at a minimum, he wants a land bridge to Crimea if not all of Ukraine. Obama and others are worried he wants more. Obama made a statement Putin better not mess with the Baltics and has a meeting soon with the leaders of the Baltic nations. This thing may get bigger than Ukraine.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline fathertime

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #831 on: August 29, 2014, 09:25:45 PM »

Obama made a statement Putin better not mess with the Baltics and has a meeting soon with the leaders of the Baltic nations. This thing may get bigger than Ukraine.
I read that article too.  I thought it was an effort to act like he is doing something and being tough without doing anything.  The issue is Ukraine, so Obama discussing the Baltics is a strawman.  Maybe it was a response to Putin's statement about ' messing around with a nuclear Russia'  THAT statement I actually do believe.

Fathertime!
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline missAmeno

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #832 on: August 30, 2014, 04:31:54 AM »
Far-right Russian politician Vladimir Zhirinovsky says Poland and Baltic states risk being “wiped out” in the escalating conflict over Ukraine.

http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/178609,Poland-is-doomed-says-Putin-advisor


The phoney war is over as Russian troops and armour flood across the border

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-the-phoney-war-is-over-as-russian-troops-and-armour-pour-across-the-border-9697990.html


Poland and the Baltic states, which suffered decades of oppression under Soviet rule during the Cold War, have been urging their North Atlantic Treaty Organization partners for months to take a harder stance against Moscow.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/russias-ukraine-moves-renew-fears-in-poland-baltics-1409270241
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 04:37:28 AM by missAmeno »

Offline Gator

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #833 on: August 30, 2014, 04:47:16 AM »
Far-right Russian politician Vladimir Zhirinovsky says Poland and Baltic states risk being “wiped out” in the escalating conflict over Ukraine.


Shocking.  Russia is rattling swords.  The world does not need such threats.

Does Vladimir have much status in Russia?  The article says he is an advisor to Putin.  Or is he some crazed old man?

If the US were as accomplished in covert intervention as GQ claims, millions of Chinese soldiers would now be deployed along the Russian border and placed on Defcon 2.   The world does not need that, nor comments about destroying Baltic states and Poland.


Offline Gator

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #834 on: August 30, 2014, 04:47:53 AM »

3. .... People at Donbass have right to decide without external pressure if they want to be Ukrainians, Russians or somebody else.



The same option is not given by the Russian government  to its citizens residing in Siberia, namely the concept of more self-government.   So why should the Russian government dictate such options for the citizens of Ukraine?

Offline missAmeno

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #835 on: August 30, 2014, 04:56:26 AM »
http://gazeta.ua/articles/np/_bataljona-donbas-bilshe-nemaye-rozstrilyali-v-ilovajsku/578183

I hope that every russian тварь that killing and every russian тварь cheering to those who killing gets its share of lead in forehead.

Offline ghost of moon goddess

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #836 on: August 30, 2014, 05:48:07 AM »

Does that apply only to those who oppose your stance but not to those who support your opinions? I get these little silly warning from the board every time I allegedly do this when I respond to those *passive aggressive post attempts to insult instead of addressing a poster directly* -

So, did you get the same warning when you called another an eunuch? I bet you didn't, did you as I don't see a little green word that says "Watched" on your profile. LMAO..


I wouldn't draw a parallel between the trope that Boethius, not unreasonably, used, IMO,  and your trademark 'coolness and sexiness' that some of your posts are so generously padded with  ;D
If you want to keep your expressions convergent, never allow them a single degree of freedom.

Offline Doll

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #837 on: August 30, 2014, 05:51:55 AM »
Zhirinovsky is a well known "clown".

Offline JohnDearGreen

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #838 on: August 30, 2014, 07:40:26 AM »
...  Russian army is moving along Ukrainian border these days but I saw no firm proof that russian military columns crossed the border. World may think as media tells but world leaders base their decisions on more convincing evidences...
Very simple reason for lack of proof.  Benefits normally have to be paid to family, so world leaders actions are covered up.
http://www.pravda.com.ua/articles/2014/08/26/7035805/
http://www.novayagazeta.ru/society/64975.html
http://korrespondent.net/world/russia/3412363-blohozrenye-za-chto-pohybly-pskovskye-desantnyky
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 08:29:34 AM by JohnDearGreen »

Offline BillyB

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #839 on: August 30, 2014, 08:04:56 AM »
I read that article too.  I thought it was an effort to act like he is doing something and being tough without doing anything.  The issue is Ukraine, so Obama discussing the Baltics is a strawman.  Maybe it was a response to Putin's statement about ' messing around with a nuclear Russia'  THAT statement I actually do believe.

Fathertime!


FACT: America listens to phone calls of the leaders of countries that are our friends. Obama promised Angela Merkel he wouldn't do that again but he didn't promise Putin. We are probably intercepting Putin, his cabinet, and his military generals phone calls to get a read on their strategy. Europe is probably doing the same. The Baltics and Poland seem awfully worried. Maybe they are part of Putin's long term strategy. If Obama and Europe keep irritating Putin by poking him with the sanctions stick, Putin may take on the "F all of you" stance and go for the Baltics and Poland thinking the West doesn't have the will to fight a nuclear armed Russia.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline Belvis

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #840 on: August 30, 2014, 08:04:56 AM »

The same option is not given by the Russian government  to its citizens residing in Siberia, namely the concept of more self-government.   So why should the Russian government dictate such options for the citizens of Ukraine?

It's not the option, it's the inherent right. Citizens may fight and are fighting to exercise it. So you should address the statement to citizens residing in Siberia, not to the Russian goverment. And I doubt Russian government is able to enforce state options for the citizens of Ukraine, you depreciate the freedom will of Ukrainians.

Offline BillyB

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #841 on: August 30, 2014, 08:08:04 AM »
It's not the option, it's the inherent right. Citizens may fight and are fighting to exercise it. So you should address the statement to citizens residing in Siberia, not to the Russian goverment. And I doubt Russian government is able to enforce state options for the citizens of Ukraine, you depreciate the freedom will of Ukrainians.


You are okay with Russia sending weapons to rebels in Ukraine to fight for their freedom. Are you okay with America sending weapons into Russia to the Russian citizens who want to fight for their freedom?
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline missAmeno

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #842 on: August 30, 2014, 09:22:04 AM »

Offline Muzh

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #843 on: August 30, 2014, 09:24:48 AM »
Shocking.  Russia is rattling swords.  The world does not need such threats.

Does Vladimir have much status in Russia?  The article says he is an advisor to Putin.  Or is he some crazed old man?

If the US were as accomplished in covert intervention as GQ claims, millions of Chinese soldiers would now be deployed along the Russian border and placed on Defcon 2.   The world does not need that, nor comments about destroying Baltic states and Poland.


Gator, here's the game being played.


Nincompoop member of Duma declares that given a chance Russia will obliterate the whole world. "If I cannot have it, no one will." Akin to many jokes describing the Russian soul.


Putler says, "You see? I'm a moderate compared to all those nationalistic crazies. Better deal with me. I'm good for you."


And the EU/US is swallowing it hook, line and sinker.


Russia learned the game well from North Korea.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #844 on: August 30, 2014, 09:26:29 AM »
1. We saw no evidence that Russian military killing our cousins and vice versa. Captured russian paratroopers did not use guns and even did not realize they are in Ukraine. We see the civil war at Donbass where Ukrainian side try to imagine their enemy as Russian soldiers because nobody like to kill own citizens. Of course, there are 2-3 thousand of russian volunteers (mainly from nationalists) and unknown number of military experts (pure guess). But there are also french guys among rebels (also nationalists), nobody will accuse France in invasion. Key factor is that Ukrainian citizens fight with Ukrainian citizens, and Russia is trying to settle the situation in own favor.
Of course, Russian people reject idea to employ military against Ukraine according to all polls. I must note that Crimea was not being considered as Ukraine in russian mentality.

2. Accusing of Ukrainian govenment in Nazism was a pattern of propaganda before president election. Now Nazism is used to mark only Ukrainian volunteer batallions, and I observe the solid reasons for that:


3. Yes, I feel that Russia should support the separatists with advisors and weapons to assure people of SE Ukraine will have chance to choose their own way of life. Putin proposed federalization as a way to keep Ukraine united while preserving russian influence there. Idea of New Russia (Новороссия) became popular after civil war raged across Donbass region. People at Donbass have right to decide without external pressure if they want to be Ukrainians, Russians or somebody else.

4. NATO presented not intelligence photos but photos taken by commercial cosmic body. They are not the result of military surveillance as I understood. Russian army is moving along Ukrainian border these days but I saw no firm proof that russian military columns crossed the border. World may think as media tells but world leaders base their decisions on more convincing evidences.
When russian army took scene in Crimea there were a lot of video and photo proofs, now only words in Ukrainian media.

5. The last question sounds funny if you mean Big Brother Watch. There is a barrage of critics toward Putin and Russia in russian social networks  :) Even Strelkov (former supreme commander of rebels) expressed his discontent toward Putin and russian politics in his forum of reconstructors.


What flavor do you prefer with your Kool Aid? :rolleyes:
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Belvis

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #845 on: August 30, 2014, 09:26:51 AM »

You are okay with Russia sending weapons to rebels in Ukraine to fight for their freedom. Are you okay with America sending weapons into Russia to the Russian citizens who want to fight for their freedom?

I have no doubts America will send weapons into Russia to the Russian citizens if they start fight for freedom. Are you against fight for freedom?  :)

Offline Belvis

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #846 on: August 30, 2014, 09:28:59 AM »

What flavor do you prefer with your Kool Aid? :rolleyes:
I'm reading Ukrainian media too and understand your  :rolleyes:

Offline Muzh

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #847 on: August 30, 2014, 09:34:27 AM »
I'm reading Ukrainian media too and understand your  :rolleyes:


LMFAO


What Ukrainian media are you reading? DNR Gazetta?


My wife scours every piece of Ukrainian media looking for positive signs. So far, nothing like what you posted. As a matter of fact, totally the opposite.


BTW, her relatives living in Omsk cannot access Ukrainian media. Hmmm.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline missAmeno

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #848 on: August 30, 2014, 09:41:13 AM »
Escort girls on Ukrainian Independence Day in Donetsk. Rebels   parade captured Ukrainian soldiers:


Tart is Minister of Culture of rebels


« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 09:47:28 AM by missAmeno »

Offline missAmeno

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #849 on: August 30, 2014, 10:13:50 AM »

 

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