American Men

[Sonar]

I've spent several days reading this site. Seems like a good idea to get a feel for the mindset before jumping in. I was led here by a post on another forum a couple of weeks ago by an Italian guy. I had never heard of this site before then and never knew that it existed.

Anyway, this guy in Italy (if I posted his name, I'm sure some of you would recognize it) refers to this site as one to avoid. His claim is that very much of the information here is incorrect, self-serving and just plain BS. His idea is that most Americans (especially those that disagree with him) are naïve, stupid and deserve any type of ridicule possible.

So, out of curiosity, I decided to come here to see for myself what it is that he is ranting about. All that I can say is wow, what a breath of fresh air there is here.

I'm not new to any of this and have been to Russia and Ukraine twenty times during the past six years. Mostly involved with one girl from Russia. So it stands to reason that I would know something about what I'm talking about. But I have found that on some of the other forums there is an extreme bias directed toward American men by mostly western European men. I've had run-ins with a few Australians also.

What I find to be really amusing is the fact that the majority of them have never been to Eastern Europe. And many of them will make a special effort to try to discredit anything and anyone American.

I am so fed up with hearing about how stupid Americans are. 90% of what I have read here makes very good sense and this is the most intelligent and informative discussion group that I know of.

I am hoping that some of the level headed, intelligent American minds here will offer an opinion about this. Why are we being portrayed as undesirables by so many Europeans?

[Albert]

I look at several message boards and I haven't noticed the type of behavior you noted in any great quantity.  Sure, there are always those who don't like Americans, etc., but its mostly because the are jealous.  The best in any category (sports, military, politics, beauty queens, etc.) are always under close scrutiny by others . . . . always looking for perceived weaknesses . . . . . anything they can hang their hat on to convince themselves that they are just as good, etc.  But only foolish people will engage in any real type of debate with such persons.  To do so only indicates you are just as silly as those who put forth such ideas.

But regardless of nationality, you will find plenty of stupid people here . . . just like on any board.  So don't get your hopes up that you have found Nirvana.

[Sonar]

I find it to be a growing trend but most of the time very subtle. My thoughts are also that it stems from jealosy more than anything else.

[docetae]

As french from dutch descent living in Canada, I would like to tell a little story ...

switch France/Usa , french/american as you prefer.

There are two men talking together, one french is  talking one russian man:

the french guy: These american are stupids. They always believe to be the center of the world !!! Only them exists !

The russian guy : yes , you are right ... this always the same with them ...

The french guy : Yes they are definitely idiots, everybody knows that France is the center of the world !

[Shadow]

As a European (who likes Americans) let me give my opinion.

Americans are not stupid, but naieve. From what I have observed while in the USA they seemed to be the dream of anyone wanting to play tricks. And don't get me wrong, I enjoyed not having to worry about anyone trying to backstab me. Americans are often black-and-white thinkers. Something is good or something is bad. Europe, and especially the FSU has many shades of gray, and it is hard to determine what shade should be called as dark enough to be black.

Just in case anyone wonders... not using black in a racial way here

[RacerX]

Interesting, I had asked a RW whose agency primarily catered to western European men what she thought the differences were.  Her response was that AM seemed a lot more trusting but the Europeans more naive about the MOB biz - I guess with the implication that the AM read more of the boards like RWD.

She said that  Europeans tended to be sex-tourists more than AM but she much preferred to work with Europeans  because her girls could almost always get tourist visas to live/work there.

[BC]

Shadow,

As an American (who likes Europeans and living in Europe) let me give my opinion.

I think a good PC term would be 'geographically disadvantaged'.

Many fellow Americans that travel overseas extensively seem to get along quite well.. It's those on their first time 'over' that often baffle me

[catzenmouse]

Shadow,

As an American (who likes Europeans and living in Europe) let me give my opinion.

I think a good PC term would be 'geographically disadvantaged'.

Many fellow Americans that travel overseas extensively seem to get along quite well.. It's those on their first time 'over' that often baffle me

And those who never leave the back yard!

After I moved back here from Canada I had a very hard time dealing with the attitude that there was only one country in the world and the stupid things I would hear like "Nova Scotia? What state is that in?"

Elena is working in a retail job right now and she is amazed at how useless and stupid people are. She believes that they are so spoiled by the customer service here that they can barely wipe their butts without help. I was in retail for a long time and one of our favorite sayings was "A customer is the stupidest animal on the face of the planet".

[BC]

Nova Scotia... that's where scotch comes from right???

:clapping:

[Sonar]

My first trip to the FSU was to Kiev, Ulraine in Sept.'99. Of course I was very naive and didn't know much about anything. Probably just like everyone else on their first trip.

My flight from Chicago to Frankfurt, Germany was delayed at O'Hare causing me to miss my connecting flight to Vienna, Austria also causing me to miss my flight from Vienna to Kiev. The next flight to Kiev was six hours later.

It was around midnight and there were very few people in the airport terminal. So I found a seat and decided to get some sleep. I proped my feet on my carry-on bag and tried to relax and eventually fell asleep. My carry-on bag had an American flag that was factory painted on the side.

A few hours later I awoke to a lot of noise and commotion going on all around me. While I was asleep a couple of planes had landed and now there were many people in the terminal waiting for connection flights.

I sat up straight in my seat and there was a woman (maybe in mid 50's) standing in front of me yelling at me in German. I had no idea what she was saying. Suddenly she spit on me and walked away. I heard someone say the words "Stupid American".

Then some guy walks up as says "You should always offer your seat to the lady".

I looked around and there were many other men sitting in seats and this did not seem to be a problem. It seems that I was singled out simply because I was recognized as being American. It was my first encounter with the "stupid American" syndrome. I've never experienced anything like this in Russia or Ukraine.

[Oosik]

I call it "Geopolitical Penis Envy"

It's an inferiority complex thing that people have that makes them strike out at Americans.

As far as us feeling like the center of the universe, well, in many ways we are, often because we have to be. If Europe could have handled Kosovo etc, we would have been glad to butt out. If they could handle Iran with it's nuke development problem, we would butt out. If the vaunted UN could have handled Iraq, we wouldn't have needed to be the teeth in the treaties. But European countries seem to lack the will or the resources( socialism IS taxing on a nation's ability to look outside of itself).

What I find funny is how people from countries with very small GDP, tiny militaries and really very little pull in the world expect the US media and the people to hang on every word that comes from their country.

Some folks need to realize too, distances are huge in the US. If you want to be "worldly" in Europe, you can hit the 10 biggest countries there in a few days, at a leisurly rate. You can hop on a train or drive your car. We have to drive to the nearest Int'l airport, fly across a huge country, fly across the pond, then arrange transportation once we are there. Seems we ought to get travel credit for driving across our own country as well, Americans probably drive more miles per year than people from any other country in the world.

On a lighter note, for every loud American tourist in Europe with a Hawiian shirt, there is a loud European in the US wearing Speedo's at the beach when it's 75 degrees out!

Funny how the German lady thinks it is rude to sit while she stands, yet she is such a skag that she would spit!!!

[NDOC]

I'm of the opinion that stupidity knows no national boundaries.  As an example, I was traveling through London Heathrow airport waiting for a flight and looking up at the departure board.  There was a nice looking girl next to me, doing the same.  After several minutes she started off down the walkway and shouted in a thick British accent, "Why don't you fu*king Spaniards go home!" as I was the only person with a dark complexion standing nearby, I assume she meant me even though I am not Spanish and don't speak the language.  Go figure.

[catzenmouse]

Nova Scotia... that's where scotch comes from right???

:clapping:

Not quite on that one BC but I do know some people that make very  excellent beer there. I miss real Canadian Beer!!! The stuff they send  down here is made for Americans which means its pisswater!

Ken

[catzenmouse]

I'm  of the opinion that stupidity knows no national boundaries.

I totally agree with that! And we seem to be having quite a bit of evidence of such behavior here lately!

Ken

[BC]

Nova Scotia... that's where scotch comes from right???

:clapping:

Not quite on that one BC but I do know some people that make very excellent beer there. I miss real Canadian Beer!!! The stuff they send down here is made for Americans which means its pisswater!

Ken
[/quote]
oh boy... and now you're gonna tell me men don't wear a skirts in your home country.. 

.. just funnin ya  LOL

 

[catzenmouse]

oh boy... and now you're gonna tell me men don't wear a skirts in your home country.. 

.. just funnin ya  LOL 

Only those foolish enough to want to freeze their nads off! :P

[andrewfi]

Whilst stupidity knows no national boundaries, it certainly seems that this is an area in which a fairly large minority of the inhabitants of the US seems bent upon world domination.

As a non-American who has lived for quite a while in the US, certainly more over the past three decades or so than pretty much anyone here has spent in the country from which their wife, or intended wife comes, I have seen some changes. Some for the better, many not so. Probably the most significant change, and significant because it is by its nature, all pervasive, is a national loss of confidence.

That a thread of this nature exists at all is indicative of that. I really doubt that such conversations and displays of petty chest beating would have been commonplace a decade or more ago. That Americans are now, often, so intolerant of other ways of living and thinking is another aspect of this loss of confidence. The United States is not a football team. One does not need, or have to support the whole country and all its people in everything they do in order to have respect for the generality of its people and the things they do.

Somebody upthread noted that he felt that there was a degree of 'penis envy' in the rest of the world. That may be true of some, but in reality it simply displays a lack of understanding of what drives the mass of public opinion around the world. There is a greatly increased fear of the US these days. There are millions of people who have good justification, but little reason to fear the US. The now commonplace attitude in the US of 'our way is the only way and we will bomb you to prove it' has spread far outside of the leadership of the US and is now pretty much the norm, or at the least those who would think different tend to stay very quiet.

When I read the attitudes of many of the posters on this board who are happy to make their opinions known in fairly strident terms, I find myself wondering why they seek a foreign bride. What drives a man who is convinced that he is a member of human culture in its highest form to marry somebody who is thus, obviously, from an 'inferior' culture? What personal need does it fulfill? Is this perhaps another manifestation of the insecurity, and hence fear, that so many Americans display? If you were more confident in yourselves and your place in your society and world culture, would you need to marry someone from a demonstrably economically poorer country?

My best friend over here is on his way back to the US even as I write this. I know he is returning with some changed attitudes. I have learned a lot from him over thepast months. I am eagerly awaiting his return with his supplies of decent tequila, spray cheese, HoHos and Twinkies.... See I told you there were good things about the USA!

 

[Admin]

Guys - you need to be careful with this thread. I can easily see it becoming a political minefield and ending up in the NHB section.

- Dan

[Oosik]

It isn't fear. It is actually confidence and not really giving a darn what other people think. That doesn't mean we want to tell people how to think or what to do, it just means many of us choose to follow our hearts and we don't care if anyone else dissagrees. Isn't that the very definition of self confidence? Even if sometimes our hearts are wrong? As far as world opinion goes, when 60% of all nations are dictatorships, and half of the rest are lead by politicians on the take (think oil for food etc.), we can hardly set our moral compasses by int'l public opinion polls. Heck, the way the US media is, one cannot trust US mass opinion, the media is real good about slanting the news hard then taking polls. If the polls don't go their way, they slant the news some more until the numbers themselves become "news".

[Shadow]

Oosik I was almost stepping in the minefield Dan was talking about

As your post shows, you are a proud American. You might consider Andrewfin's post very carefully before continuing looking for a RW.

[Admin]

...it just means many of us choose to follow our hearts and we don't care if anyone else dissagrees. Isn't that the very definition of self confidence?

No, I don't think that is the definition of self-confidence at all. I think what you describe comes much more closely to the definition of "arrogance" - ref:

n : overbearing pride evidenced by a superior manner toward inferiors.

A self-confident person, or country, seeks to lead by example - NOT by autocracy. They seek consensus and collaboration. The ABSOLUTELY care what others think, because they recognize that NOTHING will be effective through coercion or intimidation - only by willing cooperation.

- Dan

[andrewfi]

Nope.

For example, because I am confident in myself, I need not concern myself with what you think. I do not need to discuss my Britishness or make great claims for my country, or even myself, these things just are. Generally speaking, those with the most confidence and least fear are also the ones who have least to say about what others do, it simply is not important to them.

If the US were more confident and its citizens less fearful there would be no pointless 'war on terror' and many fewer breast beating American men. Strangely, the women seem less prone to the American malaise than the women.

Of course when Americans and their government tries to usurp some kind of deranged moral high ground, then, well, things do just get a little silly. If one wants to look at a government built upon cronyism and economic self betterment, it would be hard to find a more successful example, in broad money terms, than the US and its executive branch. Most other governments, whatever we may think of them individually, are simply playing a game of envious catch-up!

Perhaps this is a part of the US problem with attempting to impose moral and ethical frameworks on other groups. The glorious hypocrisy of the American giant lumbering around like a drunken boor, slurringly trying to tell everyone how to behave whilst all the time, making drunken passes at the host's daughters and stealing the family silver is at the same time both funny and disruptive. The lumbering drunk may be drunk and he may be lumbering, but he is still big & heavy and he is still wanting to prove just how strong he is.

As Theodore Roosevelt said in respect of his personal philosphy "Speak softly, but carry a big stick." It would be good to return to the days when America and Americans knew the truth and value of this maxim. Such an example would have served Americans well in these recent and troubling years.

[Admin]

Nope.

For example, because I am confident in myself, I need not concern myself with what you think. I do not need to discuss my Britishness or make great claims for my country, or even myself, these things just are. Generally speaking, those with the most confidence and least fear are also the ones who have least to say about what others do, it simply is not important to them.

If the US were more confident and its citizens less fearful there would be no pointless 'war on terror' and many fewer breast beating American men. Strangely, the women seem less prone to the American malaise than the women.

Of course when Americans and their government tries to usurp some kind of deranged moral high ground, then, well, things do just get a little silly. If one wants to look at a government built upon cronyism and economic self betterment, it would be hard to find a more successful example, in broad money terms,than the US and its executive branch. Most other governments, whatever we may think of them individually, are simply playing a game of envious catch-up!

Perhaps this is a part of the US problem with attempting to impose moral and ethical frameworks on other groups. The glorious hypocrisy of the American giant lumbering around like a drunken boor, slurringly trying to tell everyone how to behave whilst all the time, making drunken passes at the host's daughters and stealing the family silver is at the same time both funny and disruptive. The lumbering drunk may be drunk and he may be lumbering, but he is still big & heavy and he is still wanting to prove just how strong he is.

As Theodore Roosevelt said in respect of his personal philosphy "Speak softly, but carry a big stick." It would be good to return to the days when America and Americans knew the truth and value of this maxim. Such an example would have served Americans well in these recent and troubling years.

Andrew,

As you may have intuited from my previous post - I have my own concerns about the politics of various government administrations - HOWEVER, this is NOT a board for bashing  governments or their administrations. The the degree there is an explicit tie to politics in the FSU and how those politics bear on relationships with women from the FSU - those should be posted over in the Politics section - please.

- Dan

[andrewfi]

My apologies, the conversation was making specific points about the 'rest of the world' in comparison to the USA. It does not therefore seem untoward to comment upon points already raised, especially when they are at the heart of why the people of the USA are where they are and why Americans, or more accurately America is seen in the rest of the world. Kinda like discussing Christianity and its effect upon the world without mentioning Judaism and Islam.

I do tend to disagree about self confidence and arrogance and your idea that confidence ipso facto leads to consensus building. In state power terms, I really think that the diffidence model as practiced by the US throughout most of its history is more appropriate to the real world. In general, even on an individual level, we tend, when we are confident, to be much less concerned about what others think and it is absolutely true that these days Americans as individuals and government are waaaay too concerned about what others think - see this thread! I have no proof, but I suspect that there would be greater respect for the US had they acted without attempts at false consensus building in their recent 'adventures'. They would certainly have been ina stronger position in the arab world had they done so, even if hated, they would have been respected, now there is hatred but not even respect; seen by many as the catspaw of Israel.

[Oosik]

Some people are intimidated by/envous of strong men. RW happen to like them. If European men don't like them, who cares:
I'm not trying to find a EM to take warm showers with 'till the wee hours of the morning.
Guys who are found to utter the words "you brute"(or a reasonable facsimile thereof) are not ever going to beat me up.
They can't raise a credible army against us.

Since I do have self-confidence, I am not going to be swayed by opinions that don't sway me logically.

The above will ruffle some feathers, but think about it, WHY? Because they lack self confidence themselves, and have to bite the ankle of the big dog to prove how tough they are. This in my opinion is why so many people in the world critisize us and feel shadenfreude when the US stumbles or when they can find a poll that goes against us. Some in the US want us to marginalize ourselves, bend to biased polls and the insecurities of others to make people like us. That is weak and pointless, it would just embolden our enemies. Most of us are independent enough to not give a rip about the anklebiters.

As an example, the French are the worst of the bunch. Most Americans would be more than happy to see Germans (or anyone) march through Paris again. We would get our shadenfreude out of that. If you guys wonder why we took so long to enter WWII, just think about how our "friends" are treating us now. Trust me, the US public would want to wait just as long (if not longer) if it were to happen again tomorrow. Do others in Europe think the same of the French to some degree? I know there are a lot of Brits that do.

Edit: I just read the above two posts. Methinks NHB is the home for any thread that comes close to this subject.

Andrew, GJ showing your anti-US streak.

[Oosik]

Nope.


If the US were more confident and its citizens less fearful there would be no pointless 'war on terror' and many fewer breast beating American men. Strangely, the women seem less prone to the American malaise than the women.
**********
Why do you say fear? Is that what you would have to feel in order to defend yourself? Until then you are happy to see madmen hurting others, as long as they don't come after you? That is selfish.
And it is interesting that you find you have more in common with AW than with AM. Kinda reinforces my opinion of you.

NHB please.

[Oosik]

have no proof, but I suspect that there would be greater respect for the US had they acted without attempts at false consensus building in their recent 'adventures'. They would certainly have been ina stronger position in the arab world had they done so, even if hated, they would have been respected, now there is hatred but not even respect; seen by many as the catspaw of Israel.

Yes. If we spent too much time trying to get people to agree with us, we would look weak and the Arabs would not respect us at all. Besides, the main objectors to our "adventures" were on the take, so trying to sway them would mean out bribing Saddam.
On the take, short list:
Cherac (sp)
Galloway
Putin
Annan
Former PM of Canada Cretien, and links to current PM, Martin.
China objected, don't know if they were on the take, but they are trying to cut into our influence per the standard Marxist playbook.

Regarding Israel, seems 60 years ago more than half of Europe was happy to load their jews on trains. Now, I wonder how many still would. From the anti-Israel bias, I suspect many.

[Admin]

have no proof, but I suspect that there would be greater respect for the US had they acted without attempts at false consensus building in their recent 'adventures'. They would certainly have been ina stronger position in the arab world had they done so, even if hated, they would have been respected, now there is hatred but not even respect; seen by many as the catspaw of Israel.

No. If we spent too much time trying to get people to agree with us, we would look weak and the Arabs would not respect us at all. Besides, the main objectors to our "adventures" were on the take, so trying to sway them would mean out bribing Saddam.
On the take, short list:
Cherac (sp)
Galloway
Putin
Annan
Former PM of Canada Cretien, and links to current PM, Martin.
China objected, don't know if they were on the take, but they are trying to cut into our influence per the standard Marxist playbook.

Regarding Israel, seems 60 years ago more than half of Europe was happy to load their jews on trains. Now, I wonder how many still would. From the anti-Israel bias, I suspect many.[/quote]

Oosik,

I have now heard quite enough of your political views unrelated to the theme of the board. And no, I will not move every post that drifts into this territory over to NHB.

Find a different board for expressing those.

- Dan

[andrewfi]

Oosik ~ A man can always find a woman who will 'respect' his bullying. Most real men would recognise the strong man of this type as a bully and give him the wide berth he deserves.

Russian women do not respect bullies and if you actually knew Russian men at all, other than as fantasised puppets playing out the black hat roles in your internal dramas the you would know that most Russian men are actually very gentlemanly but that there is a greater degree of acceptable male chauvinism here.

It is probably true to suggest that chauvinism (or enhanced male dominance) and courtliness go hand in hand (perhaps why the American gentleman is a somewhat old fashioned, if pleasant concept!). Russian women DO enjoy the good manners of Russian men, they often times do not enjoy the position of being a woman in their home society. There are many millions of Russian men who are loved by their women.

The sad truth is that many Americans have never learned the basics of good manners as practiced in much of the civilised world and so whilst Russian women enjoy the equality that is offered to them in American society they often find the boorishness of the men they meet to be hard to deal with. That is why some American men are incredibly popular with women from around here - they offer the best of all worlds, good behaviour and respect as an equal.

For men like you appear to be, this creates a problem. You seek a woman with whom you can be 'strong', yet you do not know the cultural rules that go with strength in these terms and thus appear to be a badly manner nye kulturny. If it were otherwise, you would not have even considered spending a night in the home of a person poor enough to need to rent out a bedroom to passing strangers. The knowledge of what you were thinking of would have turned you away from the idea before even mentioning it to us.

Worse still, the chances are that you will find a woman who will consent to allow you to mistreat her, by the standards of her new home culture. She will stand for it just long enough to maximise your pain and her profit and then leave you.

[Oosik]

Andrew, Being a srong man does not mean being a bully. Actually, it's the weak men that bully.

But maybe one has to be strong to realize that on a gut level.

I am done with this thread. Dan asked me to knock it off, so take it as a green light to keep bashing my country.

Everyone else can probably see in your posts the answer to the question posed in the starting post.

BTW The RW that I mentioned in the P-K thread,  to sum it up, she liked that I was "impudent" (she liked how I grabbed her popka and was a little dominant when we were kissing (my strong man routine), but she loved how polite and respectful I was. She thought I was way more cultured than RM that she had experience with. She said "RM don't deserve RW". She was floored that when I was with her, I wore a nicotine patch instead of smoking, out of respect for her preferences. She said no RM would ever do that. So it is possible to be cultured, respectful and strong at the same time. Think James Bond!!!

 She also commented that her last boyfriend was kind of a wuss, too timid or shy to sexually "go for it". It put him in the friend category permenently. I guess timid folks shudder to think of acting as I did, and rather than deal with their own wussification, they attack my studliness (LOL).

Enjoy being in touch with your feminine side. I'll enjoy being an unapologetic man. Off to Ukraine for me!!!!

[Bruno]

As former Canadian Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau once remarked on relations with the United States, "Living next to you is in some ways like sleeping with an elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered is the beast, if I can call it that, one is affected by every twitch and grunt."

Code: [Select]

The quote up can be the real reason :cool:...

[Admin]

I am done with this thread. Dan asked me to knock it off, so take it as a green light to keep bashing my country.

No, there is no "green light" to bash anything - and I hope everyone sees that.

- Dan

[andrewfi]

Ooski ~ Just remember what you fantasise about, I live. So when you write like an unknowing arse, then I understand what you are writing and set in in the context of life as it is. We all have to make our mistakes. I trust that you will enjoy yours.

If you choose to fantasise that you are an English secret agent, then that is fine too! But as a cultured English gentleman, you also know that the kind of boorish behaviour that you ascribe to yourself is not something a gentleman would be doing much of and certainly not with a woman he saw as a romantic lover, perhaps with a hooker...

BTW ~ Everything you write does NOT suggest that you are a strong man, and I surely recognise that men who try to imitate strength without knowing the tools are usually entirely obvious in their approach and manner.

With your attitudes as displayed here, I recommend that you do some reflection (unlikely I know!) and reassess what it is you are seeking and why.

 

 

[BC]

Such posts remind me of when I admired a cabnet full of old WWII medals (in FSU)..

Asking their significance I received the reply "old history" and nothing more.. I did not pry.

Obviously the very old man was proud of his accomplishments but still maintained the humility to bear them with silent honor.  He earned my respect two times over without words.

I'm sorry Oosik but all I've seen from you so far is second hand blaaa blaaa blaaa..

Sigh....topic locked before this continues.