Aloe, the desperate housewife

[LAman]

Uh, guys. Limit yourselves just to listen. No heroes wanted.

I agree, sounds like Aloe was just venting.....
yet there are many caring people here...
 
From her other thread....she has much to think about and get answers in her life. I wish her my best!!!

[missAmeno]

Is that from abuse or something else?

Yes, its from abuse. All women that been through domestic violence been through that. It doesnt happen over night, it takes weeks, months, years. Drop by drop to you shown your worthlessness till you believe it and low self esteem with depression hits you that you are unable anymore to see clearly what is happening around you, and even if you are able to see, you are some how paralyzed to do anything about your situation to change it. In most cases abuse doesnt start from violence, first its emotional, then shoving called pushing, choking is accidental ... and one day black eye will be called just a slap.


I am surprised that so many advised Aloe to try to establish "rules of argument" while she said

...he doesn't cease to amaze me with the lack of ability of placing himself in anybody else's shoes, and with the failure to admit or realize that my point of view is not less valid than his. He always thinks things are exactly the way he perceives them, and there is no way in hell that his point of view is not the only correct one.

Perpetrators of domestic abuse often avoid taking responsibility for their behaviour, they blame their violence on someone or something else, deny it took place at all,  try to excuse with something or minimise the meaning of it by saying "its just slap"/"it was accident". If guy doesnt see wrongdoing in flipping his wife its not safe to try to explain him "rules of argument".

[GoodOlBoy]

Not in the UK. In the UK, one phone call and the guy is right down the pokey - just like in the US.

I will try to chronicle what happened to "I" one terrible night and how we were involved in this whole unpleasant process.

If it's OK, I will call her "Ira".

It was 2010 and Ira had been in the GoodOl' USA for almost 5 years. She was in her 30's at the time of this tragedy. Her husband was almost 15 years older and worked for the U.S. Government. My wife and Ira met at the gym in our building. Ira was studying for her US citizenship test (reading a citizenship book while riding the stationary bicycle). My wife had just passed her citizenship test so she recognized the book right away. They became fast friends and Ira was over to our condo many times (including Thanksgiving dinner). Her husband was overseas and could only visit a few weeks at a stretch during the year.

Fast forward ahead, IIRC it was approximately 10:00 PM on a Friday night, (Iras husband had arrived home earlier in the week for a quick visit) the telephone rings and I answered it. It was Ira, crying and sobbing. She said "REEECK" I need help, pleeeease, Marina. Marina was doing something on her laptop computer in the bedroom. I called out to her and said Iras on the telephone and something was wrong with her. My wife picked up the extension telephone in our room. The next thing I hear is this shout "OH MY GOD!!".

Marina came flying out of the bedroom and told me that Ira was in the hospital emergency room and that we need to go to her immediately. Strange thing was I had heard an ambulance hours earlier out in front of our building, but I payed no attention to it because we have some elderly people living in our building and unfortunately a lot of ambulances come and go around here.

Well, we make it over to the hospital and visit Ira in the emergency room. She looked pretty bad. She was getting ready to go into surgery. They wound up putting this contraption on her arm with screws going through her skin all the way to her bones (to stabilize the bone). My wife stayed all night with her at the hospital. When we asked what happened, she said that her husband did this to her! .........

Now I want to stop here and explain that we are talking about a dear sweet lady who has NEVER been to a US doctor, let alone a hospital (she went home every year and visited here doctors in Ukraine). She knew absolutely nothing about insurance, deductibles, etc. All she knew was she was just ushered to a strange place by ambulance, the police were still swarming all over her with questions and wanted her to make an official statement, that she was in severe pain (administered to her by her husband) and she was in a strange place with strangers she didn't know, getting ready to have surgery!

Ira made it out of surgery, OK. I spoke to the Orthopedic surgeon who operated on her and he said she will be ok with some rehabilitation work. So, I went back home during the early morning and caught some sleep and took care of our cats. Marina stayed by Ira's bedside. I came back the next morning, with coffee and some American junk food for breakfast (McD's  ). I found out where her husband was (Miami Dade county jail) and began to explain to Ira the rough road that laid ahead for her. My wife asked me to stop, because she said it was to much for Ira to deal with.

Anyway, Ira was released Sunday night and we brought her home. There were messages on her answering machine from sh!t head, asking how she was and if she would bail him out of jail??

She didn't understand what "bailing" him out was. I explained it to her, she said "NO WAY!".

Come to find out he didn't get bail, he just wanted her to come to court and speak to the judge. My wife and I drove Ira down for his arraignment Monday morning and spoke to the assistant DA in the hallway. She took one look at the contraption attached (screwed into) Ira's arm and said "Did he do that to you?". Ira answered, "Yes he did!".......

Again I want to stop here and say we are talking about a foreign lady who knows nothing about our justice system here in the GoodOl' USA, let alone where the courthouse building is and has some horrible injury to her arm and needs help desperately because of her jack@ss husband.

The DA escorted Ira up to the front row of the courtroom and when her husband was brought in with the rest of the clowns, the DA approached the judge and then stepped back and asked Ira to stand. The judge asked a couple of questions and the next thing I heard was "NO BAIL!!"

The DA told Ira that her office would be in contact with her later for official statements and such. She then told her to go home and rest her arm. We took Ira back home. I remember it as a very quiet ride.

As I said previously up-thread, jack@ss spent almost one whole year in jail. He lost a beautiful lady. Lost his job with the Gov't. Is a convicted felon. Can never purchase a gun (thank God!) and pretty much screwed himself.

I have skipped A LOT of the nasty details about everything that took place, but there was no trial. A deal was struck with him. He was able to stay in county jail, instead of state prison.

Of course, to this day he has a no contact order (with Ira) issued by the court.
 
You know what this guy did when he got out of jail.... He sent Ira flowers and asked for her forgiveness!  Go figure.

GOB
 
 

[LAman]

I am surprised that so many advised Aloe to try to establish "rules of argument" while she said

Well said Miss Ameno!!
 
To speak in general, physical abuse can be uncontrollable, spontaneous and escalating. Any man that would raise his hand toward a women is pure coward. Unfortunately, many battered women makes excuses for the behavior. My sister hid many of abuses..until I saw a black eye that she said was from a door. No doubt, I dealt with her now ex-husband with the same veroscity he did with my sister...so he would think twice before laying a hand on her again. I was taught to never, I mean never lay a hand on a women...even as angry as I have gotton....it never crossed my mind. Now with a guy....totally different!!!

[LiveFromUkraine]

Well said Miss Ameno!!
 
To speak in general, physical abuse can be uncontrollable, spontaneous and escalating. Any man that would raise his hand toward a women is pure coward. Unfortunately, many battered women makes excuses for the behavior. My sister hid many of abuses..until I saw a black eye that she said was from a door. No doubt, I dealt with her now ex-husband with the same veroscity he did with my sister...so he would think twice before laying a hand on her again. I was taught to never, I mean never lay a hand on a women...even as angry as I have gotton....it never crossed my mind. Now with a guy....totally different!!!

Um, neither party, man or woman, should be laying hands on others out of anger.  It isn't just men who abuse.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I am surprised that so many advised Aloe to try to establish "rules of argument" while she said

Yeah, the rules will probably be thrown out when things heat up.  I feel for Aloe and understand a little where she is coming from. 

[LiveFromUkraine]

Aloe, this is a great book that opened my eyes about certain things in my life.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000FBJFWI/ref=kinw_myk_ro_title

[Ade]

Wrong.

Aloe, never ever say you walk away if he doesnt stop. You only can say that if you have safe place to go straight away. Almost always such statements do reverse from what we hoping to achieve by saying them. Even if it will not cause immediate violent outburst, it will lower his trust to you and can push him to try to control your freedom in some way.
 

If he were systematically physically abusing her I'd agree. But he isn't. If she should be that afraid of confronting him she should walk out the door, this minute.

Some guys are just too oblivious to realize what they are doing, as he seems to be. And sometimes they need a sharp shock of reality to wake them up to make them realize what they will lose if they don't shape up.

[Steamer]

I don't feel like it's been deteriorating. I feel it got better. We haven't argued in many many months. It's just when we argue, then i feel like this.  I'm just really confused and have no clue as to what i should do    

Learn how to deal with things. Fighting is a form of communication ( although a primitive one). Strange as it may seem I think you guys are doing well. No punching but keep the talk going and it will work out.

[I/O]

Frankly guys, I think prescriptive advice, based in the little information available together with the lack of professional expertise present, is dangerous.
 
Yet again, missAmeno has made cautiously wise observations.
 
What I am reasonably sure of, having read several of our beloved Aloes threads, is that one or the other is suffering clinical depression, maybe both of them, which it is, if it is one and why it is, I am far from certain.

[missAmeno]

If he were systematically physically abusing her I'd agree. But he isn't. If she should be that afraid of confronting him she should walk out the door, this minute.

Some guys are just too oblivious to realize what they are doing, as he seems to be. And sometimes they need a sharp shock of reality to wake them up to make them realize what they will lose if they don't shape up.

Ade, its not about being systematic or regular, enough of one time to understand that person is capable for violence. If guy can be violent because of music or broken glass, he well capable to be violent for many more reasons. And its a fact that the time when victim of domestic abuse trying to leave in most of cases is the most dangerous time. As I said previously telling abuser you will leave will cause reverse reaction and only bring more violence. You can have such talks with someone who understands they did something wrong, from Aloe's posts I have impression its not a case - he doesnt see wrongdoing. It may help if some third party told him he is damaging his marriage and may loose his wife, like counselor.


Aloe, one question if you dont mind me asking: did you ever mentioned domestic violence to a psychologist you been seeing?

[Brianinaz]

Below are a couple of paragraphs from a article in the Can Med Assoc J. 1984 March 15; 130(6): 709–712

"Women who arephysically abused are also psychologically abused, and their recollections
of the psychologic abuse are often more vivid and longer lasting than those of the physical abuse.5 Therefore, the syndrome should be defined as a symptom complex of both physical (including sexual) and psychologic abuse of a woman by her husband. A husband includes
any male with whom a woman has an intimate relationship."

"There appear to be three distinct phases of violence in a relationship: that in which tension builds, that in which violence erupts and that in which tension is relieved. In the last phase the husband is often kind, loving and remorseful. This postviolence reconciliation often leaves the
woman hopeful that her husband will change and reinforces her decision to continue the relationship. Therefore, she often appears unconcernedabout the violence. Battered women usually present to their physicians towards the end of the first phase or during the last phase."
Part of the description of a battered woman: "They felt drained, fatigued and numb and had no energy to do more than the minimum in household chores or in looking after their children. They had a pervasivesense of hopelessness and despairabout their lives. They saw themselves
as incompetent, unworthy and unlovable and were ridden with guilt and shame. They thought they deserved the abuse, saw no options and felt powerless to make changes. Thus, a cycle of "learned helplessness" was established."

Aloe sweetie, obviously I don't know you and I rarely post here but reading your posts it's difficult to be quiet. I suggest you take a couple of hours and go back and read your posts over the past several years. This has been building for some time and your state of mind (as is portrayed here) has deteriorated gradually over a relatively long (couple of years) period of time.

I suggest you do some reading on your own and see the psychologist at least once more and go over the entire incident in detail so you can get the perspective of a mental health professional.

Several members have suggested not offering advice that might impact you marriage. I don't know Aloe, given the fact that no one was there but you and your husband, I understand their point but, I see this sort of thing (a little later in the course of things) regularly in my work and it doesn't get better. You've outlined clearly a lack of respect, evidence for control issues and now physical abuse. A duck's a duck Aloe. Something I find disturbing is he wasn't intoxicated when this happened. If someone's drunk it's no excuse but people do stupid things when they're drunk. That he put his hands on you when he was sober and suppose to be rational indicates a significant lack of control and ability to deal with anger.

If you can take a break, go visit the family for a couple of weeks. It's often a lot easier to sort through a situation when you're removed from it.
Brian 

[Ade]

Ade, its not about being systematic or regular, enough of one time to understand that person is capable for violence. If guy can be violent because of music or broken glass, he well capable to be violent for many more reasons. And its a fact that the time when victim of domestic abuse trying to leave in most of cases is the most dangerous time. As I said previously telling abuser you will leave will cause reverse reaction and only bring more violence. You can have such talks with someone who understands they did something wrong, from Aloe's posts I have impression its not a case - he doesnt see wrongdoing. It may help if some third party told him he is damaging his marriage and may loose his wife, like counselor.


Aloe, one question if you dont mind me asking: did you ever mentioned domestic violence to a psychologist you been seeing?

Sorry, I disagree. From Aloe's descriptions this guy sounds like an arse, he's certainly immature, selfish and self-centered and perhaps has anger management issues but from her own words, the vast majority of time they get on great and don't argue. He's not locking her in their house and beating the crap out of her regularly so there's no reason to believe he will start now no matter what ultimatum she give him.


Either she has to try to change his behaviour by convincing him that she won't put up with it any more, and to do that she has to be prepared to leave and tell him that too, or she just has to plan to leave without confronting him.


Remember he's not interested in marriage counselling and he doesn't think there's anything wrong with him. The only thing that may wake him up is a shock of what he may lose. So what would you suggest she do? 


I would agree with Brian and she should try to visit family for a while if she can. Perhaps a few  months and see how hubby likes feeling single again.

[Aloe]

I didn't break the glass    What was going on, is he would come home every evening and start playing his crappy music (if you know the style called screaming, which is indeed screaming, not singing). I really do hate that style, and after a few weeks i guess i got fed up. Apparently listening to music you strongly dislike every evening can drastically lower one's quality of life. So anyway, he turned on his music again and i suddenly burst into tears and stormed out of the room saying something like "not your shitty music again". Then 5 minutes later i realized that wasn't a good way to bring my message, so i came back and said "don't you realize, i live here too?" I guess that's a bad way too, kinda provocative. So he yelled "don't you realize I live here TOO???? you are so selfish, i just wanna listen to my music, i come home from work tired" So i answered (first time in 3 years i have yelled, and im not exaggerrating, i've always made it a point to never ever yell in an argument, but this time i was fed up, so i yelled back that i cant stand his music and it really ruins my well being having to listen to it every evening. That's when he turned it up to a really loud volume and put his middle finger up, and not just put it up, but held it there. So after a few seconds of viewing his middle finger, i reached for the glass in front of him intending to smash it on the floor because i was angry. So he jumped up and pushed me to the wall with his hand around my neck and when i was against the wall and choked for a second from his hand, he took the glass and let go my neck (so no glasses were broken), set the glass down, then grabbed me by the shoulders and started pushing and yelling. And by pushing i mean holding my shoulders (arms? above elbows) and walking towards me forcing me to step back, for the distance of about 3 meters. Dunno anymore what he was yelling then.


So, after he let go, i started screaming like crazy, because it suddenly hit me what kind of person he is (violent one), so i was horrified and desperate, just thinking fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck i am one of those women(the ones unlucky enough to discover themselves beside a violent man)!!!!!!!  So while me screaming he tried to make me shut up by covering my mouth, he couldn't so he just left to his music room, and i went for a 3 hour walk in the night.


Anyway, i did let him know several times before this that i hate this music, to which he turned down the volume, but still i  always had to listen to it every evening.
I realize breaking glasses is stupid; and screaming is stupid, i guess apart from the horrible realization i also wanted the neighbors to hear me. So i'm not gonna do that again. That's what i said to him the next day when he returned from work. He said he was sorry. So i asked him, was he worried he might not find me there anymore, when he comes back home? He said no. That was a surprise, cuz i wasn't sure he wasn't gonna tell me to gtfo when he comes home. But apparently he isn't worried about the stability of our relationship. I told him if he ever does it again, i will send him to a shrink, cuz violence is not ok. He said ok. Told him several times that violence cannot be justified by anything, and especially not by broken glasses. He said he thought i was gonna splash him in the face with the drink. So anyway, after several times of my making the point that violence is unjustifiable, he said ok, but i don't believe he agrees, because the times before that he disagreed. I think he agreed just to get me off his case.



I also realized that in our old arguments, often he would just be silent and ignore me for 4 hours. That drove me really crazy, cuz i passionately hate being ignored. So those times i told him after those arguments to stop ignoring me, and he stopped doing it. So now i realized my mistake and this time i told him to just ignore me and stonewall all he wants, like he used to, if he feels that he's gonna get physical.


But thinking back now, i have already lost the count of how many times after an argument, i have thought, ok, this is it, time to get the hell outta here. Definitely more than 5 times. Maybe that's a sign?


But then i start doubting, and he is very nice and sweet when we don't argue...

[Aloe]

And it bothers me that when we argue he calls me a bitch. While i make it a point to never call him anything. In the 3 years i have never called him a single bad word. One time i told him: "i don't feel like cooking if you're gonna act like an asshole". Thats the closest i ever came to calling him names. But apparently he doesn't feel the necessity to filter his words. One time he even said "you are such a horrible person". I don't like that he calls me a bitch and horrible person. Horrible person was just one time, but bitch happens more often than that 

[GoodOlBoy]

Perhaps a few  months and see how hubby likes feeling single again.

SJ, I am not trying to argue with you here, but I could really care less how this jackass (sorry Aloe) "feels".

I am seriously starting to worry about Aloe's mental health and her state of mind after these years of abuse directed towards her.
Physical abuse (such as I described above) can heal.
Mental abuse is an entirely different story.
Aloe could be damaged forever.

JMHO, But I believe she is wasting the best years of her life with this guy.

GOB

[Aloe]

If i went home, he knows i would be back for school, and he knows when it starts, so it's just wait a bit

Besides, here in Belgium they make it a habit to send policemen to control where you live. So if i applied for citizenship, and then was nowhere to be found when the policeman arrives to control my place of living, they would refuse my application. It is pretty ridiculous. Last time they controlled, the policeman went around the apartment, looking at our things, even went to the bathroom to control the toothbrushes. I've heard from others some policemen go through their dirty laundry hamper.
It is pretty humiliating. Although one girl wrote, when the policeman came, she opened the door completely naked, then he left immediately and gave the confirmation without snooping around her apartment

[GoodOlBoy]

It is pretty humiliating.

I would say so.
They sound like a bunch of perv's. 

Last time they controlled, the policeman went around the apartment, looking at our things, even went to the bathroom to control the toothbrushes. I've heard from others some policemen go through their dirty laundry hamper.

The Belgium authorities also sound like the Nazi Gestapo.

GOB
 

[Aloe]

I would say so.
They sound like a bunch of perv's. 

The Belgium authorities also sound like the Nazi Gestapo.

GOB

Belgian authorities have the resources to control regular citizens, but have none to control the criminals. Most of people who get taken into custody for a crime, later just get released. And if you do get sentenced for less than 3 years of actual prison time, you don't serve it, because there is no place in prisons. And there are thousands too few ankle tags (ankle monitors?), so the people that are supposedly in house arrest, don't have any control either. And not long ago some guy beat up 3 police agents, you know what their response was? The police union went on strike! And whenever someone breaks out of prison by holding a prison guard hostage, nobody follows them, they just let them go. And then that prison's guards go on a strike! A strike every time it happens! And it happens a lot. It sounds fantastic and unbelievable, but this is the way things are here.

[Faux Pas]

If i went home, he knows i would be back for school, and he knows when it starts, so it's just wait a bit

Besides, here in Belgium they make it a habit to send policemen to control where you live. So if i applied for citizenship, and then was nowhere to be found when the policeman arrives to control my place of living, they would refuse my application. It is pretty ridiculous. Last time they controlled, the policeman went around the apartment, looking at our things, even went to the bathroom to control the toothbrushes. I've heard from others some policemen go through their dirty laundry hamper.
It is pretty humiliating. Although one girl wrote, when the policeman came, she opened the door completely naked, then he left immediately and gave the confirmation without snooping around her apartment

What was this girls address again? 

In all seriousness, it is time you develop yourself an exit strategy. It doesn't matter if you ever leave hubby or use it but, you need one. The abuse if not diagnosed/treated will only escalate. It's not something that just takes care of itself. Marriage and co-habitation with another is serious commitment and doesn't involve abuse of any kind. Quite honestly, from your posts both of you come off as immature, ill equipped for marriage and he more so than you. Please don't misunderstand my meaning. I believe you to be a very intelligent young woman but, your inexperience in this area could be the death of you.

[missAmeno]

Sorry, I disagree. From Aloe's descriptions this guy sounds like an arse, he's certainly immature, selfish and self-centered and perhaps has anger management issues but from her own words, the vast majority of time they get on great and don't argue. He's not locking her in their house and beating the crap out of her regularly so there's no reason to believe he will start now no matter what ultimatum she give him.


Either she has to try to change his behaviour by convincing him that she won't put up with it any more, and to do that she has to be prepared to leave and tell him that too, or she just has to plan to leave without confronting him.


Remember he's not interested in marriage counselling and he doesn't think there's anything wrong with him. The only thing that may wake him up is a shock of what he may lose. So what would you suggest she do? 


I would agree with Brian and she should try to visit family for a while if she can. Perhaps a few  months and see how hubby likes feeling single again.

Ade, exactly she has to be prepared to leave when she starts this talk. Unless she is ready emotionally and has safe place to go, she shouldnt start this talk. Otherwise there is risk (and not small so, please, dont ignore it) that she can put herself in danger. Its not good combination when a girl on her own in foreigner country confronts a guy with anger management issues. I havent read many posts by Aloe but I briefly seen some time ago one thread started by her and somehow I got impression (which could be wrong!) she doesnt have many friends around her. Right now she needs support and if she decides to confront her hubby she needs to have some friends close by on who she can rely if worse to happen.

And yes, I agree that if its possible she should visit family, everything will become more clear to her once she is away for some time.

[Aloe]

What was this girls address again? 

In all seriousness, it is time you develop yourself an exit strategy. It doesn't matter if you ever leave hubby or use it but, you need one. The abuse if not diagnosed/treated will only escalate. It's not something that just takes care of itself. Marriage and co-habitation with another is serious commitment and doesn't involve abuse of any kind. Quite honestly, from your posts both of you come off as immature, ill equipped for marriage and he more so than you. Please don't misunderstand my meaning. I believe you to be a very intelligent young woman but, your inexperience in this area could be the death of you.

This is why i am here and why i write such detailed accounts. What do you think i should have done?


Besides a psychologist and an exit strategy. You have already said those

[Aloe]

Ade, exactly she has to be prepared to leave when she starts this talk. Unless she is ready emotionally and has safe place to go, she shouldnt start this talk. Otherwise there is risk (and not small so, please, dont ignore it) that she can put herself in danger. Its not good combination when a girl on her own in foreigner country confronts a guy with anger management issues. I havent read many posts by Aloe but I briefly seen some time ago one thread started by her and somehow I got impression (which could be wrong!) she doesnt have many friends around her. Right now she needs support and if she decides to confront her hubby she needs to have some friends close by on who she can rely if worse to happen.

And yes, I agree that if its possible she should visit family, everything will become more clear to her once she is away for some time.

You are right i dont have any friends. But even if i did, i wouldnt want to so terribly inconvenience them.
 
Worst case i can always ask my parents for help. But i really rather wouldnt. As far as they know, everything is fine and perfect here. If i tell them anything, my mom is instantly gonna turn against my hubby, and then i will not hear the end of it. And then she will go and share it with the entire universe. And she is gonna worry and worry. For her there is no 2nd side of any story. If her baby tells her something, immediately everyone is evil and she launches into offensive, and immediately with the bazooka.

[Aloe]

My strategy right now is finish school, which is another 3 years. I think my parents could support me through school, but that would get in the way of their long-term plan of what they are doing right now to secure their old age incomes. I don't wanna ruin their future. So the option would be to find a job, but that means dropping out of school.. And whatever income i made, i would be able to save only very little, so if i found a job, i wouldnt be able to save enough to go back to school. Unless i had belgian citizenship and could apply for an australian work and travel visa. I hear you can earn and save lots of money in the outback. But you cant apply for that visa as a russian citizen.

[Aloe]

Yesterday i read that 75% of belgians 24 yrs old and under live with their parents. 15% of 25-35 yr olds do too. You just can't work and earn enough to go to school