More Bad News for Russia

[lordtiberius]

. . .  even destroying the country in a nuclear war.

There was a time on this forum when such talk held low regard . .

[fathertime]

Did you watch the Frontline piece last night?


He may not be crazy, but right now he is starting to feel cornered.


I believe the conclusion of that report was that Puter knows what will happen to him if he is deposed and he will do everything in power to keep his throne, even destroying the country in a nuclear war.

I did watch the 1st 20 minutes or so. 

And yes I agree about him potentially being cornered and have felt that this was how this could play out if we took too hard a line.  Although the viewpoint remains relatively unpopular here, I continue to hold that we have to let Russia off the hook in Ukraine.  Russia will go to the fire over this if they have to.  If we force their hand, all means necessary are on the table...I don't see Putin allowing himself to be impaled with a bayonet in the ass like ghadafy.   

A balance must be struck and we may not like or approve of it, but I feel it is the best way out for the world.  Russia is still going to wind up paying but just not as much as some hawks are proposing.

Fathertime!

[AC]

AC--like I said--not only are your comprehension skills lacking-- your dishonest attempts to make a case equals lying-- you keep doing it.

Take your own advice .

Here's another of your quotes.  More crazy talk from armchair General Jay.  The guy with no family in Ukraine, who doesn't speak Ukrainian or Russian, wants Ukraine to go to war with Russia, up to and including Nuclear war.

This same guy who doesn't think that Americans should be able to defend their homes and properties with firearms, wants a war which will escalate up to Nuclear level. 

Who is going to fight this war Jay?  You with some video game controls from your armchair over there in Oz?  Stop the crazy talk; and stop denying it after you say it.  Leave this situation to the Ukrainians and to the professionals. 

To answer the question you allude to-- the Russians can and would be defeated in an escalated war-- including removing them from Sevastopol and the Crimea.That answer applies to a nuclear war or a more localised restricted war.  Putin is bluffing-- and I would call his bluff--at any level. The only thing that a bully will respond to is self preservation-- and that is the issue that needs driving into Russian heads is that they are are going to lose here--one way or another.

[lordtiberius]

I did watch the 1st 20 minutes or so. 

couldn't finish it, eh?

I continue to hold that we have to let Russia off the hook in Ukraine.   . . . .
Fathertime!

Is there anything else left to say?

[AkMike]

It's a damn good thing that he's not God,or in charge,nor even listened to! 
 
I wonder if he'd be as nonchalant about an invasion of Columbia where his wife's family and friends are at?

[lordtiberius]

It's a damn good thing that he's not God,or in charge,nor even listened to! 

There's enough compassion there to fill a thimble. 

[AC]

It's a damn good thing that he's not God,or in charge,nor even listened to! 
 
I wonder if he'd be as nonchalant about an invasion of Columbia where his wife's family and friends are at?

It seems that some have no concern for Ukrainian sovereignty and lives like fathertime and others are too eager to go from defending remaining territory to the foolish idea of invading Crimea.

Thankfully President Poroshenko is a pragmatic and wise man and he wants Ukraine to survive in present form.

Should Russia someday want to relinquish Crimea for economic reasons then I'm sure he will negotiate that, however he is not stooping to the level of Russians and causing more loss of life -- his actions are defensive in nature right now to buy Ukraine time to get their military and economy up to par.

[fathertime]

It's a damn good thing that he's not God,or in charge,nor even listened to! 
 
I wonder if he'd be as nonchalant about an invasion of Columbia where his wife's family and friends are at?

I never claimed to be in charge of anything. ..I'm only one of many voices. 

I believe we have a better chance of the more correct decisions being made by those that don't get too emotional about it (like you).  This conflict can easily go way beyond Ukraine...and that type of wider war can endanger all of us...so it must be asked 'is it really worth it?

Fathertime!

[Boethius]

I never claimed to be in charge of anything. ..I'm only one of many voices. 

I believe we have a better chance of the more correct decisions being made by those that don't get too emotional about it (like you).  This conflict can easily go way beyond Ukraine...and that type of wider war can endanger all of us...so it must be asked 'is it really worth it?

Fathertime!

You are asking the wrong question.  The question you should ask is, "Should aggression against a sovereign nation be rewarded in the interests of 'peace'?" 

[fathertime]

You are asking the wrong question.  The question you should ask is, "Should aggression against a sovereign nation be rewarded in the interests of 'peace'?"

You can ask it that way...and still it has to be determined on a case by case basis...in addition I'm not seeing great rewards for Russia at this point...as Obama and company are striking a decent balance. .imo

Fathertime!

[Boethius]

You can ask it that way...and still it has to be determined on a case by case basis...in addition I'm not seeing great rewards for Russia at this point...as Obama and company are striking a decent balance. .imo

Fathertime!

So some nations invading others should be rewarded, and others not?  That is basically what you are proposing.

[fathertime]

So some nations invading others should be rewarded, and others not?  That is basically what you are proposing.

No.  I think you are boiling it down incorrectly.  I don't see Russia receiving rewards from the world.  In addition, the entire context should be considered as well as what actions are likely to exacerbate the situation.

I also think a reality remains that we have to be smart about picking our battles, especially against Russia as the potential consequences can be cataclysmic.
Fathertime!

[Boethius]

No.  I think you are boiling it down incorrectly.  I don't see Russia receiving rewards from the world.  In addition, the entire context should be considered as well as what actions are likely to exacerbate the situation.

I also think a reality remains that we have to be smart about picking our battles, especially against Russia as the potential consequences can be cataclysmic.
Fathertime!

How are they not rewarded if they invaded their neighbour, continue to arm its "separatists" (many of whom are Russian citizens), stoke war in a peaceful neighbour that was not threatening Russia, and you suggest appeasement and ceding of territory with no consequences?  Why not cede all of captured Syria and Iraq to ISIS?  Who cares if they are beheading anyone who disagrees with them?  It boils down to the same argument, from my vantage point.

[Gator]

I believe the conclusion of that report was that Puter knows what will happen to him if he is deposed and he will do everything in power to keep his throne, even destroying the country in a nuclear war.

I have always contended that Putin can not step down until he finds a successor to protect him much the same way that Putin protected Yeltsin.  And that may not be possible, so he may die in office as did Stalin.  Congratulations Russia - you have Putin for life!   Meanwhile you are pissing away a treasure in natural resources. 

Nuclear war!!!!!   More than Putin's hands are needed to fire a nuke.  If justice starts closing on Putin, hopefully the spirit of Vasili Arkhipov is at the other end from Putin. 

[lordtiberius]

He answered yes Boethius.

[fathertime]

How are they not rewarded if they invaded their neighbour, continue to arm its "separatists" (many of whom are Russian citizens), stoke war in a peaceful neighbour that was not threatening Russia, and you suggest appeasement and ceding of territory with no consequences?  Why not cede all of captured Syria and Iraq to ISIS?  Who cares if they are beheading anyone who disagrees with them?  It boils down to the same argument, from my vantage point.

Aren't there currently consequences for Russia?   Is there something more you feel we (western nations) should be doing?

As I mentioned earlier...it is a case by case basis...it our nation can intervene and make it less wrong, without a burdensome consequence to us then maybe we do something...in the case of Ukraine it appears to me we will likely only make things worse for them and for us...and perhaps around the planet, in the case of wider war.

Fathertime!

[JayH]

Here's another of your quotes.  More crazy talk from armchair General Jay.  The guy with no family in Ukraine, who doesn't speak Ukrainian or Russian, wants Ukraine to go to war with Russia, up to and including Nuclear war.

This same guy who doesn't think that Americans should be able to defend their homes and properties with firearms, wants a war which will escalate up to Nuclear level. 

Who is going to fight this war Jay?  You with some video game controls from your armchair over there in Oz?  Stop the crazy talk; and stop denying it after you say it.  Leave this situation to the Ukrainians and to the professionals.

Like I said--you are incapable of comprehension--  you are attempting to connect dots that do not equal the conclusion you attempt to make-there is a vast difference from answering a theoretical question with a theoretical answer--try reading it in context and see of that helps you.
You have repeatedly created lies about me personally-- and again here--you know zero of my situation-- so any comment like that is clearly a lie-- again.
Surely the quick draw McGraw mods around here can see that is inappropriate--and that is before I mention this guys trolling.
I dislike intently threads being hijacked by this type of personal attack--the thread becomes about the participants-not the topic--this guy has persisted to attempt to attribute words and conclusions not accurately portraying what I said-- and worse-- making comments on personal life that are mostly not even close---repeating mistaken comments by others as if fact--AC--it shows there is something wrong in your head.
Take your own advice--give it a rest-- you are really a very petty little person.

[Muzh]

I did watch the 1st 20 minutes or so. 

And yes I agree about him potentially being cornered and have felt that this was how this could play out if we took too hard a line.  Although the viewpoint remains relatively unpopular here, I continue to hold that we have to let Russia off the hook in Ukraine.  Russia will go to the fire over this if they have to.  If we force their hand, all means necessary are on the table...I don't see Putin allowing himself to be impaled with a bayonet in the ass like ghadafy.   

A balance must be struck and we may not like or approve of it, but I feel it is the best way out for the world.  Russia is still going to wind up paying but just not as much as some hawks are proposing.

Fathertime!

Point is there is not much the US can do in forgiving the Ukraine invasion. As a matter of fact, that would be a first for any US President to do such. But, what the hell we are talking about Obama and he is, you know, different.


I have to be careful as I have been pointed out that I am being a racist. LMFAO A racist. That's good.

[Muzh]

Aren't there currently consequences for Russia?   Is there something more you feel we (western nations) should be doing?

As I mentioned earlier...it is a case by case basis...it our nation can intervene and make it less wrong, without a burdensome consequence to us then maybe we do something...in the case of Ukraine it appears to me we will likely only make things worse for them and for us...and perhaps around the planet, in the case of wider war.

Fathertime!

It is obvious you are not learning from your history.


More than 70 years ago there was a corporal who found a scapegoat and his people embraced him as their savior. They prospered under this guy but he was not satisfied. He wanted more. After the Anschluss a world leader went to the corporal and appeased him hoping to obtain Peace For Our Time. A year later there was a World War.


A real burdensome consequence.

[Photo Guy]

exactly right, Muzh.

There was a recent economic summit. I don't know much about this bank CEO, but his remarks are insightful.
'...Sberbank CEO German Gref "Clearly we have a problem with the investment climate.""It is becoming clear for everyone today — as long as these reforms (of judicial and law enforcement bodies) are not carried out, pressure on business is not lowered, transparency in ownership rights and the work of the whole law-enforcement system is not increased, there can be no talk of improving the investment climate."
I've been saying this:Putin and Russia's actions in Ukraine are damaging Russia- investors are afraid to invest there because of judicial corruption. If the government doesn't like you, they take severe action, throw you in jail for trumped-up charges, or invade your country, or shut off their gas, or whatever. Ukrainians got rid of Yanukovych. We're seeing Russia's response. Who can trust Russians? The investment climate might be better in Cuba.

[sleepycat]

Looks like the midget plans to dip into the Reserve Fund in a futile attempt to prop up the rubble.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2015-01-14/russia-to-convert-currency-from-wealth-fund-to-arrest-ruble-drop.html

We can resume doing this  after the midget p*ssed away billions more of hard currency while the rubble continued to nosedive.

[Photo Guy]

I need more coffee. I forgot the link:
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/business/article/highlights-of-gaidar-russian-finance-minister-discusses-oil-reserve-fund-and-ruble/514331.html

[JayH]

REPORT
Plunging Oil Prices
Cheaper crude is hammering Russia

The days of $100-a-barrel oil are gone forever. Many analysts believe that oil prices between $30 and $40 per barrel are a real possibility. That level was last seen during the darkest days of the 2008 global financial crisis; now oil traders are placing bets on oil sinking as low as $20 a barrel.

Russia’s economic woes are getting worse too, with the ruble hitting one-month lows on Tuesday. Russian bond yields are at Venezuelan levels, and ratings agencies have also downgraded Russian debt. Default risk is soaring, making Russian debt some of the riskiest in the world. All that will translate into economic contraction this year, creating the very real risk that Russian President Vladimir Putin again looks for foreign adventures as a distraction.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/01/13/the-good-bad-and-ugly-of-plunging-oil-prices/?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Flashpoints&utm_campaign=2014_FlashPoints%20%5BManual%5DRS1%2F13

[JayH]

Looks like the midget plans to dip into the Reserve Fund in a futile attempt to prop up the rubble.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2015-01-14/russia-to-convert-currency-from-wealth-fund-to-arrest-ruble-drop.html

We can resume doing this  after the midget p*ssed away billions more of hard currency while the rubble continued to nosedive.

Here  is a chance for currency speculators to make a $ or 2 !!
Rubble will rise as they tip this into the market ( I hope they tip the lot in !!) and proceed to bigger than ever crash on the other side!!

[lordtiberius]

4.08 grivna to 1 Ruble.