Why was MH 17 on that course ?

[Brasscasing]

They did, Doll.  Apparently, for some reason, opened it again just before July 17th.

Absolutely. But as Doll exclaimed prior, Ukraine should've closed it totally during this conflict, as Kiev apparently did a few days BEFORE the downing of MH17, but for some reason opened it for civilian flights unto the fateful day of the tragedy.

Ban introduced on civil flights over zone of military operation in eastern Ukraine
July 8, 2014, 9:06 p.m. | Ukraine — by Interfax-Ukraine

>>" Ukraine's State Aviation Service has extended the ban on civil flights to the entire zone of law enforcement operation in the east of the country, State Aviation Service chief Denys Antoniuk told Interfax-Ukraine on July 8...."<<

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ban-introduced-on-civil-flights-over-zone-of-military-operation-in-eastern-ukraine-355201.html

And now the whole story (as supplied by the Russians no less)...

"The airspace over southeast Ukraine will remain closed to civilian aircraft for security reasons with the exception of transit flights at altitudes of above 7,900 m until the situation fully normalizes, the agency said in a statement."

Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_07_08/Kiev-shuts-airspace-over-southeast-Ukraine-7090/

This website appears blocked but if you fiddle around a bit you can read the article.

Coincidently, the Russians had just been caught out attempting a disinformation campaign to swipe Ukrainian skies so to speak. Some links reporting on the sky caper...

http://rbth.com/business/2014/07/07/icao_recognizes_crimean_airspace_as_russian_37997.html

http://en.eu-bridge-ua.org/icao-crimean-sky-belongs-to-ukraine/

Brass

[southernX]

brass , welcome and thanks for posting that link /info ,

i was also sure the closure had only affected lower  level civilian flights at the time ,

SX

[GQBlues]

Poroshenko has excluded those who might be responsible for the MH17 shootdown from any amnesty/pardon.

First off, the obvious question is, and only if you're right (which you're not), how does this affect rebels? Of course the Ukrainian government is not part of the amnesty program.
 

But anyway...

It is quite obvious you had no clue about what was in the 12 point protocol agreed to. They are:

1. Provide for immediate and two-sided ceasefire.
2. Provide monitoring and verification from the side of OSCE of the ceasefire.
3. Conduct decentralization of power, including through approval of the Law of Ukraine “On temporary order of local self-government in certain districts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions” (Law on special status)
4. Provide permanent monitoring at the Ukrainian-Russian state border, and verification by OSCE, with creation of a safety zone in the areas adjacent to the border in Ukraine and Russian Federation.
5. Immediately free all hostages and illegally held persons.
6. Approve a law to prevent persecution and punishment of persons in relation to events that took place in certain districts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions of Ukraine.
7. Continue an inclusive national dialogue.
8. Take measures to improve the humanitarian situation in Donbas.
9. Conduct early local elections in accordance with the Law of Ukraine “On temporary order of local self-government in certain districts of Donetsk and Luhansk regions” (Law on special status); for 3 years.
10. Remove illegal military formations, military equipment and militants and mercenaries from the territory of Ukraine.
11. Approve a program for economic development of Donbas and renew the vital functions of the region.
12. Give guarantees of personal security for participants of consultations.

Poroshenko then added the following concessions to end the conflict by drafting and submitting a bill to the Parliament. They are:

A- Protection for the Russian language, both in public and private.
B- Election for regional officials to be held on Nov. 9, 2014.
C- BROAD amnesty for the rebels.
D- Support for the continued cultural ties with Russia.

He added the following by stating: There is nothing more important for us than peace. All that is expected is that these regions remain to be in Ukraine.

So let us know exactly where is the provisional exception that he *excluded those who might be responsible for the MH17 shootdown from any amnesty/pardon*. Maybe someone can remind Poroshenko in case he forgot. Hurry. The Parliament hasn't yet approved the bill.

[GQBlues]

And now the whole story (as supplied by the Russians no less)...

"The airspace over southeast Ukraine will remain closed to civilian aircraft for security reasons with the exception of transit flights at altitudes of above 7,900 m until the situation fully normalizes, the agency said in a statement."

Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_07_08/Kiev-shuts-airspace-over-southeast-Ukraine-7090/

This website appears blocked but if you fiddle around a bit you can read the article...

Well it's good you heeded Boethius' plea to post here, Brass. LOL. She's been much too challenged with all these propaganda on all sides flying about. I had to tell her a few things she never even knew about the conflict and about Ukraine.

Anyway...on to your response...

My post quoted KyivPost's bulletin, not Russian media.  So, I'm not quite sure what your point was about Russia's disinformation. Mind explaining that?

Just so you know now, I don't read or listen to anything Russia produces as *news*. I've no interest in Russian media. However, since you already provided an excerpt to this specific event, the site you provided, which you inadvertently labeled 'disinformation', was actually far more *complete* in its report than the bulletin from KyivPost. It actually specified the altitude for the flight ban, which was 25,900' or less. MH17 was on a cruising altitude of IIRC, 32,000' +/-.

Which still gives merit to Doll's line of questioning - why didn't they close flights altogether if they saw fit to close all of them travelling at a certain altitude? Specially since they kept saying Russia was equipping the rebels with military equipment capable of downing not only SU-25, but high flying military cargo planes (which they've already downed) capable of flight in that height?

Oh and btw Brass...if you have evidence you'd like to share regarding the downing of MH17, allow me to suggest you either first contact WIFKA and claim the $30 mil, or be prepared to split the pot with the rest of the chihuahuas here as they've been displaying all sorts of evidence for months now. LMAO.

 Contact information provided for upthread, or ask Boethius. It became obvious she doesn't really know who downed MH17 either.

...Coincidently, the Russians had just been caught out attempting a disinformation campaign to swipe Ukrainian skies so to speak. Some links reporting on the sky caper...

http://rbth.com/business/2014/07/07/icao_recognizes_crimean_airspace_as_russian_37997.html

http://en.eu-bridge-ua.org/icao-crimean-sky-belongs-to-ukraine/

Brass

WOW! really?

But what does this have to do with the discussion topic exactly?

[JayH]

It is quite obvious you had no clue .

Your accusing others of being clueless?
Your internet gleaned "knowledge" of issues Ukraine  runs so far behind events that it would be comical if it was not so degrading and insulting.

Well it's good you heeded Boethius' plea to post here, Brass. LOL. She's been much too challenged with all these propaganda on all sides flying about. I had to tell her a few things she never even knew about the conflict and about Ukraine.

Anyway...on to your response...

My post quoted KyivPost's bulletin, not Russian media.  So, I'm not quite sure what your point was about Russia's disinformation. Mind explaining that?

You think you have added to anyone's knowledge of Ukraine? You really are full of your own ridiculousness.Funny how you are not allowed to post on weekends-- the wife won't let you? Or do you only post as as an employee on someone else;s time?Probably both!!

In case you missed it--Kyiv Post is a free independent organisation and not a government puppet propaganda unit-- as such they report all types of "news" -not just distorted nonsense favourable to the government.As such-- report appearing is just that-a report that has dubious factual base.

[Doll]

r

[Boethius]

I didn't plead with Brass to post here.  You will learn from his posts that he is very much his own man.  However, I am happy he is here.


His point is Ukraine never closed its airspace to flights above a certain level.  MH17 was flying at 33,000 feet when hit.  The consensus by experts was that the surface to air missiles the terrorists had launched previously would not reach such heights.  That is how the silly theories of a missile launched from a plane developed.  Those have been debunked by the report as well, as it reported on all air traffic in the area.  Keep in mind, that area is also monitored by Russia.

[calmissile]

With reference to US satellite data that might have caught the launching of the rocket(s) that brought down MH17,  you can do some research here on US satellite capabilities.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/index.html

Even if we have it, remember that our community organizer is in charge of whether to make it public.  He is after all, our commander-in-chief!

[Boethius]

I would expect the military would not wish to release that to the public although realistically, state to state (at least big states), there are relatively few secrets.

[calmissile]

I would expect the military would not wish to release that to the public although realistically, state to state (at least big states), there are relatively few secrets.

Yes, actually two considerations....
1.  Military.... reveals our classified capabilities
2.  State Department - Political ramifications

[Gator]

As much as I would like to assign percentages to your four working theories, I can’t.
I just don’t have a strong conviction or feel for any of them.
I remain open-minded as to who was responsible.
I'm sorry if my reply disappoints you.

I am not disappointed.  It does not matter to me that you are a woosie.   Unlike you, the usually timid West had strong enough convictions of Russia's wrongdoing to implement further sanctions against Russia after the downing of MH17.  If EU and US analysts felt the same as you, I doubt there would have been any tightening of sanctions. 


My percentage - 95% certain that some combination of Ruskies and rebels downed MH17 with a BUK missile. 

[Gator]

This new Boeing weapon system would change the playing field.  Somewhere Ronald Reagan is smiling, saying "Gorby, I told you SDI would work."

[fathertime]

 

If the U.S. has satellites covering the world and in particular eastern Ukraine (a war zone in which they have direct/indirect interest) then they have evidence of who was responsible for the shootdown.

Their reticence in providing evidence of their claims speaks volumes.

I don’t buy the “can’t be released for security reasons” excuse that the U.S. government pulls whenever it is convenient for them.
If ever there was an urgent worldwide-interest situation/tragedy that screams “Show us the images!” this is it.

I am in agreement with most of the HUMAN RIGHTS INVESTIGATION findings posted by GQBlues.

As reported by others, this could be a false flag event. Compared to 9/11, this would be child’s play to accomplish (including Girkin’s ‘damning’ social media post).
 

I haven't been following this aspect of the story as closely as others, but yeah it is odd to me that if there is direct evidence/images out there, you would have thought they would already have been presented.   


Meanwhile I also realize that this incident had the potential to be very very impactful in this whole battle, especially in favor of the govt. forces, at what was a critical time.  So in that respect, it can't be discounted entirely that a pro-Ukrainian splinter group had something to do with this.  Until very solid evidence is provided, my mind remains open.


Fathertime!   

[GQBlues]

Your accusing others of being clueless? ,,,

Yes. Most especially you...and that's not an accusation. Trust me.

...YaBadaBa doosy...

Again I'll ask...

Where exactly is the provisional exception that he *excluded those who might be responsible for the MH17 shootdown from any amnesty/pardon*?

[GQBlues]

I didn't plead with Brass to post here.  You will learn from his posts that he is very much his own man.  However, I am happy he is here.....

Riiiiight.

...His point is Ukraine never closed its airspace to flights above a certain level.

I see. He really MUST be his own man, eh?

He didn't say that. Although the site he provided did specifically state the altitude which KyivPost did not. So my point is, the site he dispense to promote disinformation actually provided what seem to be 'complete', if in fact the ban was for flights below 7,900 meters, which again brings to merit Doll's question along with my supporting addition.

... MH17 was flying at 33,000 feet when hit.  The consensus by experts was that the surface to air missiles the terrorists had launched previously would not reach such heights.  That is how the silly theories of a missile launched from a plane developed.  Those have been debunked by the report as well, as it reported on all air traffic in the area.  Keep in mind, that area is also monitored by Russia....

LOL. But I thought the expert consensus was that the BUK was supplied by Russia, used by the rebels although no experts are $30 million dollars richer as of today.

Am I right?

[southernX]

CANADA MAN ..If the U.S. has satellites covering the world and in particular eastern Ukraine (a war zone in which they have direct/indirect interest) then they have evidence of who was responsible for the shootdown.

Their reticence in providing evidence of their claims speaks volumes.

I don’t buy the “can’t be released for security reasons” excuse that the U.S. government pulls whenever it is convenient for them.
If ever there was an urgent worldwide-interest situation/tragedy that screams “Show us the images!” this is it.

I am in agreement with most of the HUMAN RIGHTS INVESTIGATION findings posted by GQBlues.

As reported by others, this could be a false flag event. Compared to 9/11, this would be child’s play to accomplish (including Girkin’s ‘damning’ social media post).

I haven't been following this aspect of the story as closely as others, but yeah it is odd to me that if there is direct evidence/images out there, you would have thought they would already have been presented.   


Meanwhile I also realize that this incident had the potential to be very very impactful in this whole battle, especially in favor of the govt. forces, at what was a critical time.  So in that respect, it can't be discounted entirely that a pro-Ukrainian splinter group had something to do with this.  Until very solid evidence is provided, my mind remains open.


Fathertime!

couple of things come to mind on  this issue above
IF there where any images or indesputable proof of rebel or russian involvement in this shooting down it is highly possible the EU/US /NATO may not actually wish to have it out in the public arena as it could push western opinion for them to ''DO SOMETHING ''about it on a military scale which obama etall clearly dont want

just suppose they had the proof ?? and it was leaked onto the www /media stage ?
what kind of moral outcry would it cause and what fallout might ensue on that ?

NATO/US/EU where forced to take much stronger action against russia ?? military action was escalated ?
war front enlarges across more of ukraien or europe ?? could it lead to the button on nuclear being pushed ??  how stable is putin ?? how scared is obama ??

if the proof was revealed if they had it , and NATO /EU /US did didly squat, then what ?? they lose all moral authority they may have had ?, putin has made them irrelevant ? putin would feel emboldned to push forward more ??

the possibilitys are quite dangerous imho , compared to what we now have , the probable frozen conflict in ukraine , slowly settling down ,


i can see the hypothetical gaming going on around the table on the possible fallout of revealing the proof if they have it , can anyone else ??

SX

[GQBlues]

I haven't been following this aspect of the story as closely as others, but yeah it is odd to me that if there is direct evidence/images out there, you would have thought they would already have been presented.....

Because there's really only two possibilities...

a) They have irrefutable proof but it would directly implicate the Ukrainian government...or,
b) they really do not.

Even that silly unnamed intelligence source that keeps talking admitted much of their information was largely received from the Ukrainian government sources.

...The officials made clear they were relying in part on social media postings and videos made public in recent days by the Ukrainian government, even though they have not been able to authenticate all of it.

For example, they cited a video of a missile launcher said to have been crossing the Russian border after the launch, appearing to be missing a missile.But later, under questioning, the officials acknowledged they had not yet verified that the video was exactly what it purported to be.

Despite the fuzziness of some details, however, the intelligence officials said the case that the separatists were responsible for shooting down the plane was solid. Other scenarios — such as that the Ukrainian military shot down the plane — are implausible, they said. No Ukrainian surface-to-air missile system was in range...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/22/malaysia-plane-crash_n_5611113.html

LMAO.

btw, did you know that the US started our mission in Syria by illegally entering another country's airspace today to conduct bombing missions? You know, the type of offense no one is suppose to be able to do except us. Should China, maybe even Russia, or even the EU convene to levy some WTO-violation type of sanctions against the US now?

[JayH]

SX-- you essentially have the idea correct.

There is no point in escalating the situation  and the damage that it would cause to Ukraine.

Even more so if you follow sensible military process of choosing where,when you do fight-quite pointless committing insufficient force to achieve the aims and outcome required.

Follow that idea through and the current strategy of using sanctions to discourage Russia and  buying time to see if they can work to place internal pressure on putin and the kremlin to see reason.

In the meantime-- the slow moving wheels of the military machine are getting organised. I see all this as the lesser of the evils - above all else I do not want to see all of Ukraine(or anymore of it) used as a battlefield.

[fathertime]

couple of things come to mind on  this issue above
IF there where any images or indesputable proof of rebel or russian involvement in this shooting down it is highly possible the EU/US /NATO may not actually wish to have it out in the public arena as it could push western opinion for them to ''DO SOMETHING ''about it on a military scale which obama etall clearly dont want

just suppose they had the proof ?? and it was leaked onto the www /media stage ?
what kind of moral outcry would it cause and what fallout might ensue on that ?

NATO/US/EU where forced to take much stronger action against russia ?? military action was escalated ?
war front enlarges across more of ukraien or europe ?? could it lead to the button on nuclear being pushed ??  how stable is putin ?? how scared is obama ??
the possibilitys are quite dangerous imho , compared to what we now have , the probable frozen conflict in ukraine , slowly settling down ,

 

that is an interesting theory....   One thing I can say is that this Ukraine crisis hasn't captured the hearts of many here (USA)....it hasn't been covered very much lately, and there is generally not much interest....I don't think there would be much outcry if we actually did have solid evidence it was Russia.  As a whole, we would still probably want to stay out of it. 


Although you disagree with me, it seems that you are coming around to some of the viewpoints I've had for 6 months. We are not going to into this 4-square, we never were, although Russia will... The end of this game if we were to escalate is massive Ukrainian casualties....Obama has struck the right balance in this case with the sanctions and marginalization of Russia for the moment, without us getting mired in a proxy war that very few here care about, but would be bloody....if a larger war does happen it will be a different time and a different place...

[BillyB]

If the U.S. has satellites covering the world and in particular eastern Ukraine (a war zone in which they have direct/indirect interest) then they have evidence of who was responsible for the shootdown.

Their reticence in providing evidence of their claims speaks volumes.

During this whole conflict America withheld evidence that Russian troops were in Russia. America did show it to a high level officials who are allies. They all agreed something must be done to stop Russia. Sanctions was their response.


Just because the presidents of nations doesn't give you a call and notify you of their daily activities or show you the classified info their entitled to see doesn't mean they are hiding something.


All the current evidence points to Russia. If America gives you what you want to see, what would the results be? Russia will still deny it. Russia won't pay the victims. It won't stop the war. It may hurt the current cease fire although it's a joke. It'll solve nothing but it may give Russia better insight on how to prevent America from spying the next time. I'm sure all the rebels have been educated on how not to talk on the phone next time they make a boo boo.


Netherlands will complete their report in a year. They may have enough evidence without America's evidence to incriminate Russia.

[southernX]

that is an interesting theory....   One thing I can say is that this Ukraine crisis hasn't captured the hearts of many here (USA)....it hasn't been covered very much lately, and there is generally not much interest....I don't think there would be much outcry if we actually did have solid evidence it was Russia.  As a whole, we would still probably want to stay out of it. 


Although you disagree with me, it seems that you are coming around to some of the viewpoints I've had for 6 months. We are not going to into this 4-square, we never were, although Russia will... The end of this game if we were to escalate is massive Ukrainian casualties....Obama has struck the right balance in this case with the sanctions and marginalization of Russia for the moment, without us getting mired in a proxy war that very few here care about, but would be bloody....if a larger war does happen it will be a different time and a different place...

FT, AH NO actually im not coming around to your view point at all

the above was just hypothetical suppostion on why they might not release substantial evidence if they had it ,as it would show how weak they have been and may continue to be
 doesnt mean i agree with that view


AND going back to feb , you might recall i raised the improbability of the UN sending in troops to ukraine to calm and stabilise the situation , that did not happen of course , action was slow and weak , thus the facts on the ground where always ahead of ukraine and its supporters ,

putin rationalised once he had occupied ground it was up to the ukraine gov & supporters how far they would push back to regain it , he has always  stayed one ratchet  notch higher in that regard to maintain his grip on the s/east &push his agenda

in my view he would not of been able to if ukraines supporters had of been willing to call his bluff and match or up the ratcheting in line with him , however they where not prepared to do so ,
it would have been a big gamble , but putin is not insane , just good at evaluating situations and being prepared to strike ,
lots of reasons why he can , his personality , his gov structure /power base etc etc

putin made them blink and hesitate , always keeping  the pressure up , showing his determination was greater ,
ukraine gained little real help in the fight , all its supporters deemed ukraine wasnt worth fighting for ,sad but true ,
was that the correct thing to do ?? no i dont believe so ,

the fallout will be felt for a long time to come ,

even now i dont agree with poroshenkos deal with the terrorists , however i can understand the course of action he has taken , to me it seems fraught with difficultuy and a lot of hope , maybe it will buy him and his gov some time to regroup and rebuild , strengthen the military to a point where they may be a force to be matched against russia over time , possibly even nuclear capability , not so much to actually fight , but to make putin think seriously about the consequences of repeating his actions

even now ukraine should be given lethal weapons imho , not to use , but to have if needed , you cant negotiate with a wolf when your the lamb

putin is not finished yet imo , he would still like the land bridge in the south

SX

[LiveFromUkraine]

During this whole conflict America withheld evidence that Russian troops were in Russia. America did show it to a high level officials who are allies. They all agreed something must be done to stop Russia. Sanctions was their response.

Hmm,  so Russian troops in Russia is the reason for the sanctions?    If we have, say, American troops in America, will EU sanction us?

All the current evidence points to Russia.

Didn't the US already stated it wasn't Russia that shot down the plane?

[LiveFromUkraine]

btw, did you know that the US started our mission in Syria by illegally entering another country's airspace today to conduct bombing missions? You know, the type of offense no one is suppose to be able to do except us. Should China, maybe even Russia, or even the EU convene to levy some WTO-violation type of sanctions against the US now?

Yeah, I made the same point in another thread but apparently there are apples and oranges at play within the political spectrum

[Boethius]

Riiiiight.

You don't have to believe it.  I didn't ask him to post here, though I am happy he is.

He didn't say that. Although the site he provided did specifically state the altitude which KyivPost did not. So my point is, the site he dispense to promote disinformation actually provided what seem to be 'complete', if in fact the ban was for flights below 7,900 meters, which again brings to merit Doll's question along with my supporting addition.

He didn't.  But the article he linked did.

LOL. But I thought the expert consensus was that the BUK was supplied by Russia, used by the rebels although no experts are $30 million dollars richer as of today.

Am I right?

No.  Sloppy thinking.  The expert consensus is the plane was brought down by shrapnel from a surface to air missile.  Given the fact Ukrainians had no BUK missiles in the area (why would they?  The terrorists don't fly planes), and that the terrorists boasted about bringing down a plane minutes after MH17 was brought down, well, quack quack.

[GQBlues]

You don't have to believe it.  I didn't ask him to post here, though I am happy he is.



He didn't.  But the article he linked did.


No.  Sloppy thinking.  The expert consensus is the plane was brought down by shrapnel from a surface to air missile.  Given the fact Ukrainians had no BUK missiles in the area (why would they?  The terrorists don't fly planes), and that the terrorists boasted about bringing down a plane minutes after MH17 was brought down, well, quack quack.

LMAO! When are you cashing out the $30 mil is all I want to know...😝