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Author Topic: Expectations of intimacy  (Read 1000 times)

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Offline cameraguymn

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Expectations of intimacy
« on: February 24, 2021, 04:33:00 AM »
Twenty years ago I went to Russia and Ukraine as a college student. Sex was easy to find and given rather extraordinarily freely. When I went back stateside I went through dating agencies and after a few months of letter writing, a few emailing and a few phone calls and then flying to meet the prospective women - it often ended with intimacy or in some cases started with intimacy.

Fast forward and I read about how crazy Russian and Ukrainian women are about sex.

I think this generation of women may not be as easy to allow intimacy to happen so quickly. A few weeks ago one Russian 30 year old about smacked me virtually because I joked about joining me for a glass of wine in the jacuzzi. I did sense one woman would probably allow if and when I visited her but overall I feel this generation has a more conservative outlook about intimacy than the scene 20 years ago.

I think some people have alluded to this in different threads - that generation was a little more desperate and this generation might have more choices or are a little bit desperate in simple terms.

Thoughts?

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Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2021, 04:55:19 AM »
Do you really want to be with someone who uses sex as a means to an end?
Sex has its place in a relationship.
Find the woman to have that relationship with and the rest will follow, at a time that is right for both.
Some say sex should be a given by the 5th date. I’m not one of those who subscribed to that theory.
If you’re serious about a relationship, court her. She’ll let you know when she’s ready.

Offline BC

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Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2021, 05:36:03 AM »
Whether UA, RU, or USA, women are women, and most of all they are individual.

Most men desire sex, and most women desire sex just as much as men do (which some men don't seem to understand)

Only the individual woman, choice and circumstances dictate whether it happens or not.

One could ask 10 women and have a good time (sex) with a couple, maybe slapped by one or two, cussed out or blown off by a few more.  No big deal.  In fact, one of 'em that slapped might be the most interesting to follow up with.  "Hey! Were you really that mad at me?"

Seems some men don't feel comfortable even asking ONE for even a simple date, much less sex out of fear of rejection, or don't know how go about it in a decent manner.




Offline Shadow

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Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2021, 08:56:37 AM »

20 years ago you were a student, clearly not marriage material but good material for some fun. That means you attracted similar women.As much as you may wish it to be otherwise, you are 20 years older and there for no longer seen as material for casual sex. That means your attitude should be adjusted, or you should mingle with the same of women you mingled with when your recent prospect was 10 years old.
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Offline cameraguymn

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Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2021, 10:25:14 AM »
It is interesting to evaluate whether the culture has change or it about me.

I also notice many older men in Ukraine who seemingly were having success during those times. Unfortunately some rather open and embarrassing men talk.

Perhaps it is a little bit of a number of factors - cultural shift, my age and the women I am searching? I tend to focus on more educated and accomplished women. The woman who was aghast when I mentioned the jacuzzi I believe is probably more conservative than most. She is pretty, not religious but holds leadership position in financial institution.

I've come across this term "sex tourist" though I feel I was just a guy looking to meet someone special not necessarily someone solely looking to find sex, stop, forget them then go on to the next.

I've also noticed that many of the women (I search 30-40) are not religious compared to most of the women during my first search who are mostly Orthodox. And now 20 years older I am more direct and hopefully more sophisticated with relationship dynamics.

I've read in here that doctors over there recommend sex to be healthier, Slavic women crazy when the the lights go out. You have one kind of narrative then what I've been seeing and observing. Just kind of trying to adjust my general understanding of Russian/Ukrainian women sexual practices and mentality.

Offline ML

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Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2021, 10:28:49 AM »


Most men desire sex, and most women desire sex just as much as men do (which some men don't seem to understand)

I strongly disagree.  Women do not desire sex nearly as much as men do.

Picture two bell shaped curves with one to the right of the other and with intersecting tails.
Distance along horizontal represents desire for sex or sex drive.
The bell representing men is to the right of the bell representing women.
Only in the left tail of the men's bell will you find women who have sex drives equal to and even surpassing the sex drive of men.

I married very young, so I was not out chasing pussy as a young man with money.

But I intersected with such young men.  On many evenings, they went out to bars and nightclubs with the over riding goal of scoring with pussy.

The women they met at the bars and nightclubs did NOT have the over riding goal of scoring a fock.
They were there to gossip with friends, do a lot of dancing, tease a lot of pricks, perhaps find a man suitable to date with marriage as a goal, etc.

Did some of these women go off for a fock with a guy.  Certainly they did.  But the vast majority of the men and women went home by themselves; the men to masturbate, the women to talk on phone with their girlfriends about the jerks they met who were only interested in sex.
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Offline Shadow

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Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2021, 10:41:02 AM »
It is interesting to evaluate whether the culture has change or it about me.

I also notice many older men in Ukraine who seemingly were having success during those times. Unfortunately some rather open and embarrassing men talk.

Perhaps it is a little bit of a number of factors - cultural shift, my age and the women I am searching? I tend to focus on more educated and accomplished women. The woman who was aghast when I mentioned the jacuzzi I believe is probably more conservative than most. She is pretty, not religious but holds leadership position in financial institution.

I've come across this term "sex tourist" though I feel I was just a guy looking to meet someone special not necessarily someone solely looking to find sex, stop, forget them then go on to the next.

I've also noticed that many of the women (I search 30-40) are not religious compared to most of the women during my first search who are mostly Orthodox. And now 20 years older I am more direct and hopefully more sophisticated with relationship dynamics.

I've read in here that doctors over there recommend sex to be healthier, Slavic women crazy when the the lights go out. You have one kind of narrative then what I've been seeing and observing. Just kind of trying to adjust my general understanding of Russian/Ukrainian women sexual practices and mentality.
Perhaps you might be better off not blaming the difference in your circumstances on culture or change in women. It is you, always has been. Women in the age group you are looking at now are more careful as they have experienced more. Orthodox religion is a very private thing that does not require a lot of church visits. There for it can be easily mixed with non-religious.
And in that respect the culture might have changed. In the first years after communism it was popular to show religion as it was newly open to do. Currently religion is less popular as it has been linked to power and crime too much.
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Offline cameraguymn

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Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2021, 11:03:14 AM »
I echo that sentiment. I think women desire emotional intimacy much more than physical intimacy whereas guys - sex pops in our heads numerous times during the day everyday. There's probably more things ahead of sex for women in what they want too - not saying they don't enjoy it. For many women it is part of the game. For guys that is the game.

I strongly disagree.  Women do not desire sex nearly as much as men do.

Picture two bell shaped curves with one to the right of the other and with intersecting tails.
Distance along horizontal represents desire for sex or sex drive.
The bell representing men is to the right of the bell representing women.
Only in the left tail of the men's bell will you find women who have sex drives equal to and even surpassing the sex drive of men.

I married very young, so I was not out chasing pussy as a young man with money.

But I intersected with such young men.  On many evenings, they went out to bars and nightclubs with the over riding goal of scoring with pussy.

The women they met at the bars and nightclubs did NOT have the over riding goal of scoring a fock.
They were there to gossip with friends, do a lot of dancing, tease a lot of pricks, perhaps find a man suitable to date with marriage as a goal, etc.

Did some of these women go off for a fock with a guy.  Certainly they did.  But the vast majority of the men and women went home by themselves; the men to masturbate, the women to talk on phone with their girlfriends about the jerks they met who were only interested in sex.

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Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2021, 11:30:29 AM »
Thoughts?

There is a chance that you won't have chemistry when you meet.
If that happens there won't be any future in your relationship and
no sex.


Twenty years ago I went to Russia and Ukraine as a college student. Sex was easy to find and given rather extraordinarily freely.

Fast forward and I read about how crazy Russian and Ukrainian women are about sex.

FSUW have less hangups about sex that Westerners do. Think about it.
A healthy adult woman who talks to you twice per day about a having a
relationship with YOU for months and months without getting a kiss or
touched is going to want to be romanced, seduced, her toes curled and
she wants you to win her heart.

I think this generation of women may not be as easy to allow intimacy to happen so
quickly. A few weeks ago one Russian 30 year old about smacked me virtually because
I joked about joining me for a glass of wine in the jacuzzi. I did sense one woman would probably allow if and when I visited her but overall I feel this generation has a more conservative outlook about intimacy than the scene 20 years ago.

You have to realize that there are a lot of losers, weirdo's, keyboard Romeo's and
men who want naked photos compared to sincere men who will actually make a
trip with a genuine desire for marriage and a family.

FSU women (exception Georgia) aren't conservative about sex. They just want
to keep the nutjobs away.

After you get your ______________ (list of stuff here) done that you need to
get done before you get on a plane and she knows it, then in my opinion
you should have a frank discussion. 

I am confident around women, Before meeting a woman on a visit one, I would
know when her red days arrive and finish for example and I would coordinate
the days of the trip so that they aren't at the same time. I would rent an apartment
without separate beds and tell her to wear panties to pick me up at the airport that
would look good hanging from the lamp in the apartment.

In my opinion, you need to drive this bus, she wants you to, so do it.

Regarding talk online. Right now you need to get all the crap done so that you
can get on a plane and keep her posted on your progress. Make a list, let her
know what is on the list and how and when you tick things off. She needs to
know that you are serious about meeting her as soon as humanly possible
(so long as it doesn't interfere with her red days). 

I rarely give out Trench warnings. That was Moby's hobby, but on this subject
I am giving it to you and all the newbies, lurkers and men genuinely interested
in this subject. If Trench gives you advice on any of this, politely ignore it. There
is a 98.94% chance that he will be totally wrong.

« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 11:35:13 AM by 2tallbill »
FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
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If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

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Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2021, 11:42:00 AM »
I strongly disagree.  Women do not desire sex nearly as much as men do.

I would say that MOST women do not desire sex nearly as much as MOST men do.

FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

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Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2021, 11:42:48 AM »

And in that respect the culture might have changed. In the first years after communism it was popular to show religion as it was newly open to do. Currently religion is less popular as it has been linked to power and crime too much.
   
     
Absolutely not. According to data coming mainly from the Pew Research Center 2018/2019   
see 05:05  in the videos   
« Last Edit: February 24, 2021, 11:44:19 AM by Patagonie »
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Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2021, 11:57:01 AM »
I echo that sentiment. I think women desire emotional intimacy much more than physical intimacy
 

correct
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Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2021, 11:59:41 AM »
Only the individual woman, choice and circumstances dictate whether it happens or not.

This is a very specific situation. A man and a woman are in twice daily conversations
about bonding and forming a relationship day after day for several months.

You said you traveled around not looking for anything and your answer is exactly
correct for that situation. For the situation that I mentioned above, it's not.
FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

Offline BC

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Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2021, 03:15:12 PM »
Maybe I wasn't clear.

The choice I mentioned was whether to say yes or no.

Are the women you speak of somehow different?

Too bad we chased most of the women away from here.

Offline Grumpy

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Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2021, 03:17:59 PM »
A man should think of his reputation and never have sex before the third date. After all, a man does not want to be accused of sex tourism.
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Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2021, 05:58:49 PM »
Orthodox religion is a very private thing that does not require a lot of church visits. There for it can be easily mixed with non-religious.


That's not exactly true.  Church worship is very much encouraged in Orthodoxy, as is routine confession.

Quote
And in that respect the culture might have changed. In the first years after communism it was popular to show religion as it was newly open to do. Currently religion is less popular as it has been linked to power and crime too much.


The reality is that in most of the FSU, religion was just a fad.  Most former Soviets understand little about true belief, as religion was suppressed/oppressed for so long. 
True love begins when nothing is looked for in return.  Antoine de Saint-Exupery

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Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2021, 06:06:38 PM »
FSUW have less hangups about sex that Westerners do. Think about it.  A healthy adult woman who talks to you twice per day about a having a relationship with YOU for months and months without getting a kiss or touched is going to want to be romanced, seduced, her toes curled and she wants you to win her heart.


I'm not certain all Westerners have hang ups about sex.  Perhaps Americans do, though I assume that would only be in certain aspects of the culture.  I doubt, for example, the French, or Italians, have too many hang ups vs FSU individuals.
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Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2021, 07:56:20 PM »
I think this generation of women may not be as easy to allow intimacy to happen so quickly. A few weeks ago one Russian 30 year old about smacked me virtually because I joked about joining me for a glass of wine in the jacuzzi. I did sense one woman would probably allow if and when I visited her but overall I feel this generation has a more conservative outlook about intimacy than the scene 20 years ago.

I think some people have alluded to this in different threads - that generation was a little more desperate and this generation might have more choices or are a little bit desperate in simple terms.

Thoughts?


Differences in generations? Maybe it's that we(people) naturally change.



When walking through a mall with my teenage son years ago, he ask me to stop and wait. He walking into a clothing store and talked to a girl for a few seconds and then came back out. I asked him what that was about. He said he got the girls number. I asked him what does a guy have to say to persuade a girl these days to give up her number. He told me he simply walked up to her and asked for her number. I said "Is that all? When you and the girls get older, it's not going to be that easy."
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Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2021, 11:11:57 PM »

I'm not certain all Westerners have hang ups about sex.  Perhaps Americans do, though I assume that would only be in certain aspects of the culture.  I doubt, for example, the French, or Italians, have too many hang ups vs FSU individuals.
Perhaps it’s because of that puritanical streak that runs through a segment of the American population which causes those hang ups over sex.
The Europeans have always been more relaxed over sexual mores although I have read that there are signs that this could be changing.
I have read some articles about women being told to cover up by local officials when sun bathing topless on beaches in some places in France.

It could be to do with the increasing islamisation of France and less tolerance for women and their bodies in the public sphere.

French police ask topless sunbather to cover up
French women abandoning topless sunbathing
« Last Edit: February 25, 2021, 12:22:34 AM by John Gaunt »

Offline BC

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Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2021, 02:01:17 AM »
None of the above JG.

Most likely the largest negative effect on sunbathing topless is mobile phones with very good cameras that can snap a pic without anyone noticing and gets posted somewhere on the internet at voyeur porn sites within seconds.

Much different than the old days where a someone taking snapshots with a camera would be immediately noticed and most likely fussed at.  Resolution of small cameras wasn't that good and a professional setup with long lenses far too obvious.  Some stores would process such film and develop nudie pictures, others might not not and surely they didn't get tacked to the local grocers cork boards amongst public announcements and for sale goods.

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Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2021, 05:48:22 AM »

Differences in generations? Maybe it's that we(people) naturally change.



When walking through a mall with my teenage son years ago, he ask me to stop and wait. He walking into a clothing store and talked to a girl for a few seconds and then came back out. I asked him what that was about. He said he got the girls number. I asked him what does a guy have to say to persuade a girl these days to give up her number. He told me he simply walked up to her and asked for her number. I said "Is that all? When you and the girls get older, it's not going to be that easy."

Good boy  ;D :P
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Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2021, 05:57:21 AM »
It is interesting to evaluate whether the culture has change or it about me.

I also notice many older men in Ukraine who seemingly were having success during those times. Unfortunately some rather open and embarrassing men talk.

Perhaps it is a little bit of a number of factors - cultural shift, my age, and the women I am searching? I tend to focus on more educated and accomplished women. The woman who was aghast when I mentioned the jacuzzi I believe is probably more conservative than most. She is pretty, not religious but holds leadership position in financial institution.

I've come across this term "sex tourist" though I feel I was just a guy looking to meet someone special not necessarily someone solely looking to find sex, stop, forget them then go on to the next.

I've also noticed that many of the women (I search 30-40) are not religious compared to most of the women during my first search who are mostly Orthodox. And now 20 years older I am more direct and hopefully more sophisticated with relationship dynamics.

I've read in here that doctors over there recommend sex to be healthier, Slavic women crazy when the lights go out. You have one kind of narrative then what I've been seeing and observing. Just kind of trying to adjust my general understanding of Russian/Ukrainian women sexual practices and mentality.
Western men want to develop an online fantasy to raise the level of intimacy, while FSU women are ready to share and nurture fantasms ONLY when there is a RELATIONSHIP. An online penpal communication is NOT a relationship.
 
In terms of the game, it's like putting the seduction time before the comfort time.
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Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2021, 07:01:21 AM »
Maybe I wasn't clear.

The choice I mentioned was whether to say yes or no.

Are the women you speak of somehow different?

Too bad we chased most of the women away from here.

Your point then is that you were totally off topic in regard to the original poster?

All my advice was in regard to the OP's individual situation and the situation
in general for people who engage in months long, meaningful communications
before their first face to face meetings and generally what their expectations
should be.

FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

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Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2021, 07:04:59 AM »
I'm not certain all Westerners have hang ups about sex.  Perhaps Americans do, though I assume that would only be in certain aspects of the culture.  I doubt, for example, the French, or Italians, have too many hang ups vs FSU individuals.

Neither do I and I didn't say all Westerners have hang ups about sex.
I do see your point that I broad brushed Euro's when I said Westerners.

FSUW are not for entry level daters
FSUW don't do vague
FSUW like a man of action. Be a man of action 
If you find a promising girl, get your butt on a plane.
There are a hundred ways to be successful and a thousand ways to f#ck it up
Kiss the girl, don't ask her first.

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  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Ukraine
  • Status: Married 5-10 years
  • Trips: > 10
Re: Expectations of intimacy
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2021, 08:57:07 AM »
An online penpal communication is NOT a relationship.
 

I disagree.
Back in the day . . . I used email exclusively to correspond with the gals I would visit on a WMVM trip.
My emails slowly got more risque depending on how the individual gals responded to each email.
And several of the gals responded with increasingly risque messages.
As a result, by the time we actually met . . . we had effectively seduced each other.

One gal even told me that (in some psychology courses, or some such) she learned that sex could safely (from emotional standpoint) take place after X hours of acquaintance, and that letters, emails, phone calls, etc. counted toward these hours.

I didn't argue the point.
Winston Churchill.  “The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.”

 

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