women and work

[Michelangelo]

It's a personal choice how to raise your children…

Full -time job raising your kids can be hard and frustrating but it can't degrade you or be boring …

To me there is no sense to get a child and come back to your full-time job right away… Your child is being raised by a stranger and all your impact is few hours a day… in the evening when it's pretty much feeding him and putting him asleep.

A person in day care or a good baby- sitter can take a good care of your child physically but what about emotional, intellectual and spiritual influence? A baby-sitter wouldn't care to educate your child, wouldn't have patience to explain things, and wouldn't teach him what's good and what's bad… about moral, cultural and spiritual values…

Don't be surprise if you get to hear something you don't want to hear from your child… don't wonder where these bad things are coming from - you were not around enough to him the "right" and "wrong"… you didn't teach him about love and compassion… more than likely they won't be around when you'll be old and need their help… - drink as you have brewed!

If you succeed in something but failed you children, your success is worth nothing! Children are your immortality … are they good enough to make this world a better place to live? It depends on you what trace you will leave for the next generation…

Thanks for your words of encouragement, Michief.  One of the discussions I am having with my UA girlfriend is that she wants to work and I want her free to travel with me since we don't need income from her.  But she also wants children, so I think if we have children within a year she will enjoy the US style motherhood and will be happy doing the things you have described...

[TigerPaws]

Michelangelo,
 
 Of course only you know your lady and a lot depends on her background and upbringing, but my lady said what sounds like much of what you are hearing, the girls have little real knowledge of what life in America really is like and it will take some time for her to adjust. If as you said you are able to take her with you on business trips as well as leisure travel then most likely she will drop the idea of wanting to work, she is most likely saying that she would like to work because she is fearful of being left alone a home while you are gone.
 
 Within a year to 18 months at most with your help and support I am fairly confident her attitude will have changed and if the two of you truly want a child she will begin to give this some serious consideration. Having experiences this directly as well as knowing several other RW/AM couples I can speak with some confidence about the general time line in this regards.
 
 If anyone else has had any similar experiences please feel free to chime in on this.

[mischief]

While I was writing my first post here I didn't mean that it's better if moms would stay at home with a child.  Any parent, depends on a family financial situation and both parents' goals and ambitions...

There are more than enough examples when dad stays at home with children while mom working...  Since it's harder for FSU women adjust and make more money right away the logical choice that mom would stay at home... My husband will be more than happy to stay at home if I find a decent job ... 

Part-time job is an option too... whatever works to give your child the best of you and the best of everything ...

[TigerPaws]

mischief,
 
[size=+0] I do not believe anyone thought you were saying that a woman should stay home rather than work, it is just the reality is generally speaking it would be some time for a woman who just arrived in America to be able to get a job and as you said everything depends on the families finical situation. If the husband is able to support the family without the additional income a wife could add then again in very general terms it would be preferable if the woman would stay home and care for the family, children and home.[/size]
[size=+0][/size] 
[size=+0] This is a very personal dynamic and one each couple has to decide for themselves.[/size]

[Elen]

Until we moved aboard our boat SeaQuest OE my lady was a stay at home mother to our now 3-1/2 year old daughter, my lady cooks, cleans, shops and takes care of all of the daily household duties necessary for everyday life.

 Good for her and for you. I did ( and do) the same and worked also So what?
 

When my lady arrived in America from Russia on April 18, 2000 she weighed 128 lbs (58 kg) today she is 115 lbs (51 kg), she still handles the majority of the cooking, cleaning and child care aboard our floating home yet she never became fat because she kept herself active watched her diet and kept in good physical shape.

At your place I would not bet Tiger that it will be "forever" even with all diets. And if you didn't catch I didn't tell that it's staying home which would lead her to gaining "fat" I was about ages. And I wonder what you husbands (like you personally Tiger, who're such "obsessed" with wife shapes) would do if she gained weight with ages. I don't remember for sure but was not you who said that you would find a new one in that case?  Also I asked about divorces "in general" and there are many other reasons for them ( it's only you who put "fat" at first place )

As usual you are showing your prejudice against ladieswho choose differently than you believe they should, spouting regurgitated propaganda from your limited to most likely nonexistent experience with such things. As I have said before you sound very much like an old angry woman who is unhappy with her lot in life and is looking to make herself feel better by attempting to drag others down to her level.

As usual Tiger you got nothing and failed once more to quote me for I would understand where you found such my "opinion" I asked QESTIONS what you and your wives ( who stay in home and don't make any career) are going to do because it's not ME angry old woman but STATISTIC of divorces which shows there is little percent of couples who managed not facing a divorce at all in their life.

We know several couples who have been married for up to 5 years now some wife's are Russian, some are Ukrainian, all are stay at home mothers and all are doing well and none of them are fat as you suggest.

 My God here you are Tiger once more in all your "glory"  among all my words you managed to understand only "fat" while I was about "career" like some "guarantee" for woman's future and her children And I spoke about RUSSIA and I ASKED how did you see that problem in the USA.

[Elen]

BTW Tiger once upon a time I asked you how you see a future of your own daugter - like house wife ( with big age difference with husband in addition )or what? Are you going to send her to some Univercity for she would make a career in future or you think it's not necessary for house wife at all?
Of course you may say it will be business and desision of her but any way you do have some "own plans" don't you as you has to gide her in some derection ?

 Though I didn't get any answer from you that time. Wonder why?

[TigerPaws]

Elen,
 
 What I see in part is a failure to communicate so please do not take offence if I try and break down somewhat complex concepts into easier to translate and understand sentences.
 
 At your place I would not bet Tiger that it will be "forever" even with all diets. And if you didn't catch I didn't tell that it's staying home which would lead her to gaining "fat" I was about ages. And I wonder what you husbands (like you personally Tiger, who're such "obsessed" with wife shapes) would do if she gained weight with ages. I don't remember for sure but was not you who said that you would find a new one in that case? Also I asked about divorces "in general" and there are many other reasons for them ( it's only you who put "fat" at first place )
 
 If my lady were to begin to gain weight at some point I would sit down and discuss with her about what the problem is because it is not in her nature to act in that manor, but for the sake of argument let us say she said directly that she wanted to be 150 lbs (62 kg) and that nothing I said was going to change her mind about it. This would leave me with only two choices, live with her choice or make her an ultimatum to either find a compromise we both would be happy with or leave the relationship. End of discussion.

 Age has nothing to do with weight gain Elen, you are what you eat nothing more and nothing less.
 
 As for other reasons for divorce I can not comment on something I did not see or possibly understand in your comments.
 
As usual Tiger you got nothing and failed once more to quote me for I would understand where you found such my "opinion" I asked QESTIONS what you and your wives ( who stay in home and don't make any career) are going to do because it's not ME angry old woman but STATISTIC of divorces which shows there is little percent of couples who managed not facing a divorce at all in their life.

 Elen the possibility of any relationship ending up in a divorce is a fact of life, a person can only do their best and hope for the rest.
 
My God here you are Tiger once more in all your "glory" among all my words you managed to understand only "fat" while I was about "career" like some "guarantee" for woman's future and her children And I spoke about RUSSIA and I ASKED how did you see that problem in the USA.

 Each man makes his choice of a lady biased on his wants, needs and desires no lady is forced to accept a mans proposal. In my case and the cases of a number of other men I know who are married to Russian ladies they were only seeking out women who were not interested in a career. If another man makes other choices that is their decision and it is not my place to question their decision. If my lady was interested in a career we would have to have some long and soul searching discussions about that because of the lifestyle we have chosen. Before our daughter was conceived we had some limited discussions about my wife attending the local university which would have been acceptable with me but after our daughter was born my wife discoverd her true calling in being a wife, mother and homemaker.
 
 None of this is for everyone and not all men can afford to have their wife's remain home those are decisions they must make, not all women are suited to remain home as wife's, mothers and homemaker. That is a decision a man needs to make well before he begins his search for a lady from the FSU as to the kind of lady he is seeking out.

[TigerPaws]

BTW Tiger once upon a time I asked you how you see a future of your own daugter - like house wife ( with big age difference with husband in addition )or what? Are you going to send her to some Univercity for she would make a career in future or you think it's not necessary for house wife at all?
Of course you may say it will be business and desision of her but any way you do have some "own plans" don't you as you has to gide her in some derection ?

Though I didn't get any answer from you that time. Wonder why?

Elen,
 
 Our daughter will be given the same opportunity I had and my son had when he turned 18, nothing more and nothing less. My son turned down a full scholarship to one of the finest universities in America in order to fly helicopters for the U.S. Army and after he finishes his tour of duty in Iraq he has been accepted to the U.S. Military Academy at West Point again one of the finest universities in America. He has made his own way in this world and I will expect nothing less from our daughter.
 

[Elen]

I leave it for you to learn some more and educate yourself about diet - gaining weight-and ages as such issue is so important for you - just not read too many commercials of fitness clubs and producers of various diets but medical sources. At least I was not about THAT but about divorce and fates of house wives after them


And I don't doubt you ability to provide the same opportunity to your daughter as you gave to your son ( I didn't only get what's there about military Academy )
I asked what ideas you're going to put in her mind - what's "right" thing for women and where was their place in that life.

 And if it happens that being raised with idea of "house wife" she would have no desire to get education and making career do you think she would have "guaranteed" future ( as like I think and like life shows husbands do have a habit to disappear but education and skills in some occupation are more stable thing?

 Also I would want to hear an opinion of women who moved abroad and stay now at home Any back ground plans or they are 100% sure divorces are not for them? And would not it be too late to think about tha when they would face a bad end already?

[TigerPaws]

Elen,
 
 Unlike most people I place a much higher value on intelligence than education, our daughter will receive a much higher and richer education by her mother and I than any school could ever offer as she will be home schooled. As for what she perceives as being more important (work, education or housewife) that I can not yet answer. If she follows her mothers example she will appreciate them all.
 
 As for a guaranteed future, sorry there are no guarantees in life Elen except that one day you will die, other than that everything else is up to you to decide and make happen on your own.

[pitbull]

Guys, you seem to not get Elen's point in the discussion (and her point is valid and quite clear)...
There is NO guarantee that things will stay the same throughout a  person's life...especially when it goes to relationships...people  change...and a relationship which seems ideal can break in a  year...two...twenty...any time. (the reasons are plenty).
 So, a situation when a woman doesn't work on her career but sits  at home with kids, doing cleaning, cooking, even participating in  different clubs for moms and not being bored...is only good when  everything goes well. I personally know several cases like that when  one day a husband says-I don't love you any more, I want a divorse (or  anything with the same meaning).
And a woman basically is left with no job or a career, often she is not  very young and attractive any more, and she simply struggles to make a  living. And very few men are generous in these cases-(that's when  prenups are so useful in the AM-RW cases). And at the court the husband  who insisted on her wife sitting at home with kids several years ago  says-she doesn't deserve anything, she just sat at home and didn't  work, it was me who earned the money all these years)...
So, the point is-to work on career for a woman is not just a way of  self-realisation, but it helps to cover all the bases "in case".....and  be much more sure of her own and her children's future...regardless of  how her relationship is going on....
P.S. And by the way, if a woman dedicates all her time to child  raising, it doesn't at all guarantee her child will grow-up and decent  person...and viceversa

[TigerPaws]

pitbull,
 
 I can not speak for anyone else but I understood Elen's question and concern and your observation is a valid one, I do not believe anyone would say (I would not) that a woman must stay at home being the wife, mother and homemaker. That is a decision the woman must make depending on her own wants, need and desires.
 
 My personal feeling is that a career working mother is a recipe for disaster for the child (children's) future but as I said that is my personal opinion other may feel differently.

[mischief]

I haven't noticed anybody here promoting a status of a housewife for their wives. 

As far as I understood the discussion was about should or shouldn't a parent (whether a mom or dad) stay with the kid at home and for how long…

One of the reasons for the discussion is that the daycare (popular kindergarten in FSU) option is less preferable here and is not recommended by pediatricians.  In the FSU parents won't take their kids to kindergarten if they are sick, here since sometimes parents can't take a sick day or for some other reasons, they would let a sick child go to daycare. The result of this is any child in a daycare is sick through the most of the year.  So for the most of the parents only a baby sitter or staying at home with a child is the only option.

To me a baby sitter is not an option. I wouldn't mind to stay with my son another year and my husband wants to stay two more... so we are working on it.

 

Anyway, the questions whether a woman should get an education, work on her career and have a backup plan in case of a divorce is completely another topic and personal choice of a woman.  

For some people prenups is the way to go, some husbands would put a certain amount of money monthly to their wives' account in case something goes wrong, some would stimulate wives to get another education and/or job.

I believe most of the guys here are caring and loving husbands who would approve and support any decision of their wives.

[TigerPaws]

mischief,
 
 All that can be said is THANK YOU for an insightful and well worder post.

[dostogirl]

Also I would want to hear an opinion of women who moved abroad and stay now at home

When I moved to the States, I had to stay at home for almost 9 months, cos I was waiting for my docs. Those months were the worst in my life. Staying at home makes me depressed, I know myself well, that's why I do not want to stay at home for a long period of time, even with a kid. I will be looking for at least some part-time job.

[Elen]

haven't noticed anybody here promoting a status of a housewife for their wives.

Yeah. They don't. They just continue to repeat that taking care of children, being home when children are at home is the main task of their wives.

 So a question how it possible to get a decent career raising even two children in such way is obvious question ( and when and what education she is supposed to get)
I would want to hear some real variant for that.

 I do know that it's possible but not for good career and not for women from another country (because it's twice hard for them to do that)
 

Anyway, the questions whether a woman should get an education, work on her career and have a backup plan in case of a divorce is completely another topic and personal choice of a woman.  

 Topic is called woman and work BTW, which for sure includes such things like education work and career.

 For me the main reason ( except interests and ambitions which are personal things depended on woman) is independence which good career could give to woman( and a divorce is just one - the most obvious example - when woman (each woman never mind what personality she has) needs to have that "independence"

 Spending such many years with children in home lows chances for woman to make a career for sure ( leave alone that women who moved to alien country have little chances for that from the beginning)

For some people prenups is the way to go, some husbands would put a certain amount of money monthly to their wives' account in case something goes wrong, some would stimulate wives to get another education and/or job. I believe most of the guys here are caring and loving husbands who would approve and support any decision of their wives.

 Now I would believe in that too if I didn't read what words about former wives slipped time from time  from those caring guys ( and if I didn't read somebody's' pre nups as well )

 And again it would be  all in a "good will" of husbands but not a decision of women
If women are fine with that then it's their choice of course
 
 But I personally just wonder at such woman and would give anything what's in my power ( education, support, and "ideas" about woman's place in that world) to my own daughter in order to prevent such situation where she could not make decisions by herself because she has not such stupid thing like own but not husband's ( former or present) "money"

[Michelangelo]

Guys, you seem to not get Elen's point in the discussion (and her point is valid and quite clear)...
There is NO guarantee that things will stay the same throughout a  person's life...especially when it goes to relationships...people  change...and a relationship which seems ideal can break in a  year...two...twenty...any time. (the reasons are plenty).
So, a situation when a woman doesn't work on her career but sits  at home with kids, doing cleaning, cooking, even participating in  different clubs for moms and not being bored...is only good when  everything goes well. I personally know several cases like that when  one day a husband says-I don't love you any more, I want a divorse (or  anything with the same meaning).
And a woman basically is left with no job or a career, often she is not  very young and attractive any more, and she simply struggles to make a  living. And very few men are generous in these cases-(that's when  prenups are so useful in the AM-RW cases). And at the court the husband  who insisted on her wife sitting at home with kids several years ago  says-she doesn't deserve anything, she just sat at home and didn't  work, it was me who earned the money all these years)...
So, the point is-to work on career for a woman is not just a way of  self-realisation, but it helps to cover all the bases "in case".....and  be much more sure of her own and her children's future...regardless of  how her relationship is going on....
P.S. And by the way, if a woman dedicates all her time to child  raising, it doesn't at all guarantee her child will grow-up and decent  person...and viceversa

Personally, I want a wife who loves our children so much that she wants to be with them rather than give them to some daycare to raise.  The role of being a full time mother IS a JOB with great benefits that payback for life.

Much better than an FSU girl I know who does nails at a mall while someone else keeps her kids.

But basically, that decision is between a woman and her man. That's why it's good to discuss this before marraige, so both partners are on the same page...

[Elen]

Thank Pitbull for understnadig what I'm speaking about

[Elen]

Personally, I want a wife who loves our children so much that she wants to be with them rather than give them to some daycare to raise. The role of being a full time mother IS a JOB with great benefits that payback for life.

Sound like those who prefer to work love their children not much enough
Yes full time mother IS a job but that one of kind where you just should not expect a "payback" for that or it would lead to BIG troubles for the very children

PS Ask any teacher of primary school what children are better prepared for "life" in all meaning - educational, social and others - those who went to kinder gardens or those who stayed home with moms Don't know how things are for the western society but here the answer is obviouse
May be it's all about quality of day care services we have here ( almost for free) and what you lack there in the west
 But to another hand you have your fine laws in divorce cases which allow your women to leave you whithout "last pants" after a divorce

[Son of Clyde]

Many years ago I saw an expose on day care in which an unsuspecting caregiver was videotaped. Maybe it was on 60 Minutes.

This woman got frustrated with a baby crying so she started hitting the child repeatedly with a spoon.

I don't mind the idea of a married woman working part-time (2 days a week) this is not bad. It gets bad when someone trusts another person to care for their child and the person turns out to be psychotic.

There are daycare centers that are well known and care for many children. One in my town has been established for over 30 years. I would not trust a single person caring for many children if she did not have high recommendations. 

[Michelangelo]

Personally, I want a wife who loves our children so much that she wants to be with them rather than give them to some daycare to raise. The role of being a full time mother IS a JOB with great benefits that payback for life.

PS Ask any teacher of primary school what children are better prepared for "life" in all meaning - educational, social and others - those who went to kinder gardens or those who stayed home with moms Don't know how things are for the western society but here the answer is obviouse
May be it's all about quality of day care services we have here ( almost for free) and what you lack there in the west :
  [/quote]Our preschools are excellent.  But that was not what i was refering to. I was speaking of the practice of dropping infants off at a babysetter after 12 weeks.

I recommend preschool, for socialization purposes, 2 mornings a week for 3 year olds and 3 mornings a week for 4 year olds.  And at 5, our children go to kindergartern every day.

The gradual orientation to school also gives mothers time off too :-)

[TigerPaws]

Elen,
 
 I do understand how the Russian day care/child care system worked under the old Soviet system, such a system would be rejected here in America, further high quality day care is very expensive throughout most of America. A mother would have to earn a great deal of money just to pay for the day care and other costs just to work. Then a typical working day for a professional working woman could easily be more than 14 hours from the time she drops the child off at day care to when she picks the child up. We know a Russian couple and the mother takes her son to day care at 6:00 am and picks him up at 7:00 to 7:30 pm 5 days a week and Elen this is very common in America. From personal experience I can say this is very bad for the child (sometimes fatal), day care is no substitute for a loving mothers care. Most day care centers do not allow a child to attend if they are sick, so the mother or father has to miss a day or more of work to care for the child, American employers do not like people taking too much time off because of a sick child and people do loose their jobs because of it. Ah you say what about having family members help with the child care. Elen family dynamic here in America are very different than those in Russia, many couples live far from parents or the parents are unable or unwilling to help or the couple may simply be alone without any other family, either way they are on their own.
 
 While you are correct about a woman need for security should the relationship fail but when the couple decided to bring a child into the world sacrifices have to be made. Generally (but not always) it is the man who will work the long hours to support the family often missing out on important events because of the need to provide for his family, this can be as difficult for him as loss of a career is for her. The mother may have to put off her desire for a career for many years to properly care for her child or children, none of this is easy but no one forced the couple to have a child it was a decision and with that decision comes the responsibility of caring for that child or children.
 
 I realize this is a lot to understand and that you may not agree but these are the realities of life in America, yes many couples put their child/children in day care but again from personal experience that can be a fatal mistake, one which would not happen if the mother or father was caring for the child rather than some stranger.

[Elen]

I would not trust infant to anybody too But that's not a case for Russia - babysitters are not such "popular" thing here
As for day care then we have two kind of such centers One is for kids from 9 months old( for single moms who really have to work and for kids whose parents are both students) for others parents it's for 1,5 - 3 years old kids
Other centers for children 3-6 years old. Now many mothers here prefer to stay home till kids will be 3 years old if money is not issue in their family.

I think that 80% of us went to such centers in their childhood and know that at least there are no "psychotic" there as those women work for years in kindergartens - they are more trustful and professional than some "babysitter" And I didn't see those "fatals" for child you speak about too But I know about such things like "momy sons" ( mostly it's a problem for boys) - those who didn't went to kindergartens but had an ocean of mom's love in home and who were a tagets for mocking in shools later.

Ps from my experience it's better if a child visits kindergarten every day from the very beginning - first time it may be for only few hours but it should be every day.
(And of course I speak about Russian kindergartens)

PS mothers have right for their personal life as well So there is no need to "sacrify" anything for children's sake It's better for all family members to find some compromises.

[Michelangelo]

Our preschools are for 3 and 4 year olds. The government is pushing more and more for curriculum for preschools, which I disagree with.

I think a 3 year old should have fun playing and not studying!

Given that, I would hope my children would be at home with mother and father having a good time and not away at school studying...that will come in due course...

[Elen]

Our 3 years old study verses, how to sing song, dance,have sport activities and free of pay logopedist's care ( if there is need for it) Not too much to be against such "studying"
( Ps and how to stand by yourself if there is no momy behind your shoulder Useful thing too )

One more thought. All after all with all our working mothers Russian ( in general) have more close realationship with parents in adult ages Am I wrong?