Vaccines for Travelling Abroad

[BC]

A Blog!! And he thinks it’s ‘news’. Grasping….straws! LMAO.

Hell, I’m wasting time debating with someone who in apparent desperation fails to distinguish the difference in *because of* from *additionally*!

Yes, a blog that deals with issues in the logistics and supply chain sector, industries I have been involved in for over 30 years.  You point to a single cause, I point to a chain of events.

There you go, another slimy move to pretend it’s apples to apples. What Italians did was barbaric! No other civilized nation did what they did.

And how is that any different?  People died due to lack of healthcare resources. I have seen no reports of such since vaccinations began in Italy.

Non-sensical. Vaccinated folks have died of covid. Why do you think they’ve even began the silly booster shots?

Roughly one tenth for those that have been vaccinated vs unvaccinated.  Is that not 'highly preventable"?

Man, you are slow! No wonder you live in Italy. I even attached a frame to make it easier for you, yet there you are, falls out of the boat and still missed the water!!!

Describe what you see.

You are a child of sensationalized news. It was estimated, even before the vaccine, in excess of 80% of people infected of covid are *asymptomatic*! On top of that, in excess of 98% of those who survived the virus are much MORE protected than even those who got the vaccine!

Sheesh BC, at least BillyB makes a modicum of sense now and then.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037e1.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/health/if-youve-had-covid-do-you-need-the-vaccine.html

Makes more sense.

Ahh, it’s time for rule change, I see. Sorry, but just in sheer numbers, there are far more old farts in the US than Italy, go ask Democrat Cuomo, the molester. So that’s a dead end for you to weasel out of.

Proportionate to population, Italy has 19% more over 60's than the US.  That is a significant difference.


http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/People/Age-distribution/Population-aged-60-or-over/Percent



This shows that most that die in significant numbers of covid are in the 50+ age group in both countries.  Therefore, adjusting raw numbers for population should be fairly accurate.

Percentage of population over 50 in US 34%
Percentage of population over 50 in Italy 46%

So, effectively Italy has a proportionately larger population of older folks over 50, the group that experiences the most deaths.

Picking Apples and oranges, apples and oranges, BC likes to go…

Seems you may need to re-evaluate your position on this, as I have been adjusting numbers of deaths by multiplying by 5.5 to match US population.

[GQBlues]

Yes, a blog that deals with issues in the logistics and supply chain sector, industries I have been involved in for over 30 years.  You point to a single cause, I point to a chain of events.

Again, in case it didn't register *in addition* is NOT the same as *because of*. Nothing that's happening in the US today have ZIP, ZERO, NADA to do with the 6-day blockage of Suez Canal. Moreover, a 'blog' is not 'news'.

Quit digging.

And how is that any different?  People died due to lack of healthcare resources. I have seen no reports of such since vaccinations began in Italy.

When two folks are infected by the same virus, and one is carted off in a darkened room and left to die because they were ill-prepared and only have one (1) equipment to sustain life, that baby is 'barbaric'. Like I said, in NY, they brought in a ship and outfitted ground hospitals to accommodate emergency treatment facilities. When they needed ventilators, ka-ching! thousands flooded the nation, etc...

When it happened it Italy, oooppss..to their credit they did asked the EU for help, LMAO! Remember that? Of course you do...

Nice try.

Roughly one tenth for those that have been vaccinated vs unvaccinated.  Is that not 'highly preventable"?

Natural immunity is a MUCH MORE stronger means of further protection, which it appears (if the estimates are correct that 80% of infected were/are asymptomatic -plus- add in the symptomatic cases that survived at rate of +98%), literally, the population is roughly at the 100% 'protected' state if you added the 67% they estimated to be fully vaccinated.

I know these are too many numbers flying around for you, BC. Pop a brew, look over the horizon, clear the mind, and let that come to you.

Describe what you see.

The frame is still there in the post. I haven't removed it.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7037e1.htm
http://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/health/if-youve-had-covid-do-you-need-the-vaccine.html


Makes mores sense.

So he Googles again.

CDC, LMAO! of all places. I thought you said you watched Dr. Campbell's video above? You don't say.

BC, wallow in your silly fake news, OK?

Proportionate to population, Italy has 19% more over 60's than the US.  That is a significant difference.


http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/People/Age-distribution/Population-aged-60-or-over/Percent



This shows that most that die in significant numbers of covid are in the 50+ age group in both countries.  Therefore, adjusting raw numbers for population should be fairly accurate.

Percentage of population over 50 in US 34%
Percentage of population over 50 in Italy 46%

So, effectively Italy has a proportionately larger population of older folks over 50, the group that experiences the most deaths.

Listen, you just proved you have serious reading comprehension issues. You went through all that gyration needlessly. I realize you were so careful making sure to insert 'percentages' in your silly riposte, but it still came out silly.

I don't need calculators, nor do I need to Google, but I would hazard a guess that with the US's population in excess of 300 million, American old farts would likely number at, around, maybe even more than the TOTAL population of Italy.

Dude, this is grade school level and you're struggling. Stop digging.

Seems you may need to re-evaluate your position on this, as I have been adjusting numbers of deaths by multiplying by 5.5 to match US population.

OY!

[BC]

Again, in case it didn't register *in addition* is NOT the same as *because of*. Nothing that's happening in the US today have ZIP, ZERO, NADA to do with the 6-day blockage of Suez Canal. Moreover, a 'blog' is not 'news'.

Quit digging.

As we both are expressing opinions, we'll just have to agree to disagree regarding the Suez incident being a contributing factor.  Blog, youtube, or news websites, all are sources of information.

When two folks are infected by the same virus, and one is carted off in a darkened room and left to die because they were ill-prepared and only have one (1) equipment to sustain life, that baby is 'barbaric'. Like I said, in NY, they brought in a ship and outfitted ground hospitals to accommodate emergency treatment facilities. When they needed ventilators, ka-ching! thousands flooded the nation, etc...

When it happened it Italy, oooppss..to their credit they did asked the EU for help, LMAO! Remember that? Of course you do...

Nice try.

Fact remains that high hospitalization and ICU levels required crisis level triage, rationing and unnecessary deaths.  Italy also set up additional facilities and ICU wards.  My point is that the US, at this point, with solutions at hand should not be experiencing such.

Natural immunity is a MUCH MORE stronger means of further protection, which it appears (if the estimates are correct that 80% of infected were/are asymptomatic -plus- add in the symptomatic cases that survived at rate of +98%), literally, the population is roughly at the 100% 'protected' state if you added the 67% they estimated to be fully vaccinated.

I know these are too many numbers flying around for you, BC. Pop a brew, look over the horizon, clear the mind, and let that come to you.

http://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/health/if-youve-had-covid-do-you-need-the-vaccine.html

The frame is still there in the post. I haven't removed it.

Yet you still have not stated your point clearly regarding worldometer info.

So he Googles again.

CDC, LMAO! of all places. I thought you said you watched Dr. Campbell's video above? You don't say.

BC, wallow in your silly fake news, OK?

Again, I found nothing Dr Campbell stated was incongruent with what I believe is happening.  Maybe you read too much into his assessment?

Listen, you just proved you have serious reading comprehension issues. You went through all that gyration needlessly. I realize you were so careful making sure to insert 'percentages' in your silly riposte, but it still came out silly.

I don't need calculators, nor do I need to Google, but I would hazard a guess that with the US's population in excess of 300 million, American old farts would likely number at, around, maybe even more than the TOTAL population of Italy.

Dude, this is grade school level and you're struggling. Stop digging.

No digging, no struggle, just exploring facts and numbers at hand.  Unless someone here has a better grasp of statistics and can show where I have misinterpreted or misused the data, I'll stand by my calculations.  I laid it out pretty clearly, in a manner that just about anyone can follow along.

[GQBlues]

As we both are expressing opinions, we'll just have to agree to disagree regarding the Suez incident being a contributing factor.  Blog, youtube, or news websites, all are sources of information.

I didn't express an *opinion*. I cited two reports citing direct cause/s of the problem. Neither cited the Suez canal blockage as a 'contributing' factor. ZIP, NADA, ZERO...

Fact remains that high hospitalization and ICU levels required crisis level triage, rationing and unnecessary deaths.  Italy also set up additional facilities and ICU wards.  My point is that the US, at this point, with solutions at hand should not be experiencing such.

The US is doing fine. Despite its 88% metabolically unhealthy adults and sustaining a 0.22% mortality rate, with variants, isn't exactly doomsday. You spend way too much only on one extreme and fails to look at this broadly.

http://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/health/if-youve-had-covid-do-you-need-the-vaccine.html

'Experts', LMAO. I'll stick to science, as CLEARLY explained in Dr. Campbell's video.

Yet you still have not stated your point clearly regarding worldometer info.

Then go back and read it again.

So he Googles again.

Your posts are drenched with Googled info, BC.

Again, I found nothing Dr Campbell stated was incongruent with what I believe is happening.  Maybe you read too much into his assessment?

Then you either didn't watch it, or understood it. I admit he was VERY CAREFUL to make sure he didn't came out saying he has no idea how CDC came out with their valuation when proven data and science are suggesting otherwise.

No digging, no struggle, just exploring facts and numbers at hand.  Unless someone here has a better grasp of statistics and can show where I have misinterpreted or misused the data, I'll stand by my calculations.  I laid it out pretty clearly, in a manner that just about anyone can follow along.

Fine by me. I'm sure anyone can easily understand what 'sheer numbers' mean. OK, maybe not 'anyone'... 

[Trenchcoat]

Ukraine is going sky high on infections and deaths, 471 deaths for yesterday's total and over 16,000 infections, no pingdemic there:

http://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukraine-reports-second-highest-daily-covid-19-related-deaths-since-pandemic-2021-10-13/

[GQBlues]

LMAO! I just hope Israelis are a very patient bunch! They are now being told you are not considered 'fully vaccinated' unless they receive a booster shot!

http://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/03/world/israel-covid-booster.html

The 'good thing' about what they're doing in Israel is, they are at least recognizing science by inclusivity of  post-COVID infection an acceptable part of their 'green pass'.

But these 'passes' are all only good for 6 months! What happens after? Boosters sequels? 10, 15, 20 times, the rest of their sheepish lives?

Which brings to task, if the vaccine's effectiveness wanes significantly after 6 months, and you didn't subscribe to the booster shots (ka-ching!) - what state will you be in? I-dah-ho (lol)?

 

[BC]

LMAO! I just hope Israelis are a very patient bunch! They are now being told you are not considered 'fully vaccinated' unless they receive a booster shot!

The 'good thing' about what they're doing in Israel is, they are at least recognizing science by inclusivity of  post-COVID infection an acceptable part of their 'green pass'.

But these 'passes' are all only good for 6 months! What happens after? Boosters sequels? 10, 15, 20 times, the rest of their sheepish lives?

Ditto in most places that have green passes like EU.  6 months for prior infection, 9 months after last shot.  As the science evolves, the expiration dates can be easily changed as the green passes are electronic. 

Which brings to task, if the vaccine's effectiveness wanes significantly after 6 months, and you didn't subscribe to the booster shots (ka-ching!) - what state will you be in? I-dah-ho (lol)?

 

Here in Italy, boosters will be given only to those with compromised immune systems, pre existing medical conditions that makes one more vulnerable, and over 60 years old.  Those that had COVID prior only get one dose when their 6 months are up.  This one dose regime due to the variability of natural antigens mentioned in the NYT article I posted in my prior post.  Seems those that had light cases of covid, or asymptomatic may not be as protected as those that had more severe cases with symptoms like yourself.  Unfortunately tracking all that and individual testing is much more complex than simply getting one dose of the vaccine. This is one of the points Dr Campbell brought up in his video.

[GQBlues]

What an illuminating morning! Indeed, we (in the US) is living a very interestingly fractured time. So when Joe Rogan hosted CNN's Dr. Sanjay Gupta in his overly popular 'The Joe Rogan Experience' podcast, it was definitely engaging to hear two currently opposite sides of the discussion of vaccines, therapeutic treatments, anti-vaccine sentiment, etc...


Breaking Point issued a special cut-out broadcast of their show this morning due to their reaction in the podcast segment concerning Ivermectin, CNN, Joe Rogan and Dr, Gupta, LMAO! CNN, the fake news king that it is, was threatened with a lawsuit by Joe Rogan when it tried to lie and villified Joe Rogan's use of ivermectin when he was stricken with COVID, exaggeratingly citing Joe was using veterinarian prescription of Ivermectin. To add insult to injury, they not only lied about that to make their point, CNN mocked him in doing so. Breaking Point encapsulated that segment of the podcast. Here it is (Joe Rogan refused to skip to another subject as it was clear in the exchange how uncomfortable Dr. Sanjay Gupta was).

[/c]

There was a segment in the podcast (3 hours long) where Dr. Gupta made a very valid point when he said points of discussions we (the public) have about the pandemic these days is skewed for one very simple reason. Opinions are very heavily slanted towards what currently floods the media. What we read, hear and listen to every single day! To which Joe Rogan added, which the good doctor agreed with, that the overwhelming news and reports feeding us everyday are presented by groups and the media that are *heavily funded by 'special interests' organizations*. Tens of millions are spent literally almost everyday to promote their narrative. Even when it demonize, ignore and bastardize current science knowledge and wisdom to intentionally shape general public opinion. This gives rise to the Dr. Campbell video above, and why he cited he didn't understand why the CDC came to their conclusion the way they did and have. Follow the money.

[GQBlues]

Ditto in most places that have green passes like EU.  6 months for prior infection, 9 months after last shot.  As the science evolves, the expiration dates can be easily changed as the green passes are electronic. 

Here in Italy, boosters will be given only to those with compromised immune systems, pre existing medical conditions that makes one more vulnerable, and over 60 years old.  Those that had COVID prior only get one dose when their 6 months are up.  This one dose regime due to the variability of natural antigens mentioned in the NYT article I posted in my prior post.  Seems those that had light cases of covid, or asymptomatic may not be as protected as those that had more severe cases with symptoms like yourself.  Unfortunately tracking all that and individual testing is much more complex than simply getting one dose of the vaccine. This is one of the points Dr Campbell brought up in his video.

This piqued my interest a bit with you, BC. The bolded part of your post above is the second time you alluded to me having COVID as being 'severe'. The first time you did that, I actually addressed it and reminded you FWIW, it was for the most part wasn't anything close to being 'severe'. This is where I first mentioned getting infected with COVID:


http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=21622.msg558044#msg558044

I have more than a few reasons to believe I'm a pretty healthy guy. I take care of myself and watch I eat and do. I know as a matter of fact I'm healthier than most, if not all, of my associates. It's because of this, I am VERY AWARE what happens with, and within, my body. During the short period I had COVID, I really do find it very interesting to *consciously* monitor how my body was battling the virus. Maybe in my attempt to 'detail' it gave you the impression I was suffering and was severely broken down - maybe - and why it seemed stuck in your perspective. I even went to work everyday!!!

I have another thought about this. I believe which likely explains the broader public views about these discussions around COVID, is the you have this block that prevents you from hearing, or listening to, anything 'other than' that which further favor and support your beliefs about what's right from wrong about this pandemic. So with you, it's an automatic over-drive to paint a gloomy picture of anything or anyone who happens to be on the other side of the pandemic. I think this is the root of many of the discourse, mis and dis-information that's drowning us all. The pervasive denial that facts and/or opinions that happen to differ from driven narrative - rightly or wrongly, factual or otherwise - have no space to be expressed in our society today.


I liken this, and your personal reaction/perception, to what we now know and refer to as 'Semmelweis Reflex'. I don't know if you know him (dr. Ignaz Semmelweis) or not, but the term was borne out of the mid-19th century reaction to Ignaz Semmelweis by the then-scientific community who concluded and defamed him as insane, and ultimately subscribed him to an asylum where he was beaten and died of his injury. All he really did was studied and researched why the maternity ward was suffering high mortality rate of mothers during child birth. He mandated that doctors sanitize their hands before assisting child birth, which actually had a very profound positive effect once it was implemented. Mortality rate dropped dramatically overnight soon after.


But for some strange reason, the ruling academia debunked this finding simply because they felt Ignaz didn't have enough proofs and research papers in support of his 'theory' - DESPITE the undeniable result! So they took away the silly rule, and next thing you know...mothers started dying again in huge numbers. Good true story. Read it. 

[BC]

This piqued my interest a bit with you, BC. The bolded part of your post above is the second time you alluded to me having COVID as being 'severe'. The first time you did that, I actually addressed it and reminded you FWIW, it was for the most part wasn't anything close to being 'severe'. This is where I first mentioned getting infected with COVID:


http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=21622.msg558044#msg558044

I have more than a few reasons to believe I'm a pretty healthy guy. I take care of myself and watch I eat and do. I know as a matter of fact I'm healthier than most, if not all, of my associates. It's because of this, I am VERY AWARE what happens with, and within, my body. During the short period I had COVID, I really do find it very interesting to *consciously* monitor how my body was battling the virus. Maybe in my attempt to 'detail' it gave you the impression I was suffering and was severely broken down - maybe - and why it seemed stuck in your perspective. I even went to work everyday!!!

GQ,

My statement was:

Seems those that had light cases of covid, or asymptomatic may not be as protected as those that had more severe cases with symptoms like yourself.

Maybe you are reading too much into my statement.  Based on the description you gave of your symptoms, I assume we can agree they were more severe than asymptomatic or light cases.

Holy crap! This thing, so far, had been the nastiest experience being sick I ever went through - so far.

With the exception of the first day and a half, no coughing. I’m thankful for that too as coughing felt like you had a bag of broken, shard glasses for lungs every time you cough. That was freaky!

The only pronounced COVID symptoms I have is the mind-blowing state of fatigue. This is so intense it’s even difficult just to turnover laying on your bed. If you stood up you’re in a state of disorientation. I now have a better understanding how folks with compromised health condition cannot cope with this virus. Old people too. No way they’ll have the fortitude to battle with through it. Too damned consuming. This is next level, man.

Feverish state. I get chills followed by episodes for warming body temperature. I keep turning our thermostat to hot and cold depending how body is responding. You can really the battle going on within.

I feel like grandpa - crazy tired.

[/quote]

=======================

In prior posts I also mentioned a really, really bad case of flu type symtoms in late 2019 which were remarkably similar.  I tested for antibodies over six months later and the test did not find any or the test was not sensitive enough.  Maybe they weren't there anymore, who knows.  It is now known that COVID was circulating in Italy back in September 2019.  In any case, I suspect your state of health is probably better than mine.  Doesn't really mean much in the end, except to highlight that your experience with COVID was anything but asymptomatic or what I would describe as 'light', such as a nasty cough alone.

I have another thought about this. I believe which likely explains the broader public views about these discussions around COVID, is the you have this block that prevents you from hearing, or listening to, anything 'other than' that which further favor and support your beliefs about what's right from wrong about this pandemic. So with you, it's an automatic over-drive to paint a gloomy picture of anything or anyone who happens to be on the other side of the pandemic. I think this is the root of many of the discourse, mis and dis-information that's drowning us all. The pervasive denial that facts and/or opinions that happen to differ from driven narrative - rightly or wrongly, factual or otherwise - have no space to be expressed in our society today.

I liken this, and your personal reaction/perception, to what we now know and refer to as 'Semmelweis Reflex'. I don't know if you know him (dr. Ignaz Semmelweis) or not, but the term was borne out of the mid-19th century reaction to Ignaz Semmelweis by the then-scientific community who concluded and defamed him as insane, and ultimately subscribed him to an asylum where he was beaten and died of his injury. All he really did was studied and researched why the maternity ward was suffering high mortality rate of mothers during child birth. He mandated that doctors sanitize their hands before assisting child birth, which actually had a very profound positive effect once it was implemented. Mortality rate dropped dramatically overnight soon after.

But for some strange reason, the ruling academia debunked this finding simply because they felt Ignaz didn't have enough proofs and research papers in support of his 'theory' - DESPITE the undeniable result! So they took away the silly rule, and next thing you know...mothers started dying again in huge numbers. Good true story. Read it.

Really, I don't believe we disagree that awful much, with the exception of how I use numbers to compare Italy with the US, along with my observations how each country is handling the crisis, differing approaches regarding mitigation and vaccination.  You also posted a helpful video for which I had few, if any objections, but didn't see what you saw.

The remainder of your post seems to be efforts to attack the messenger and not really discourse on our different ways of looking at the same coin.  As you are expressing your opinion, I don't take much mind and try to stick to a more logical and pragmatic approach when discussing 'intense' topics.  You do bring up some good points that make me think a bit, and that's what I enjoy vs others like BillyB.

All-in-all, we differ with our interpretations, but overall, probably not that awful much.  Maybe pick one of the most egregious differences (in your view) we have on this covid topic and let's review it, without all the distractions.

[GQBlues]

GQ,

My statement was:

Maybe you are reading too much into my statement.  Based on the description you gave of your symptoms, I assume we can agree they were more severe than asymptomatic or light cases.

Speaking of reading too much...how else does one *detail* the sensation other than posting a disclaimer at the end that said: Warning the above information doesn't mean I am severely sick"

One of the common feeling of anyone who experience COVID is the intense feeling of fatigue, and fever in some degree.
 Again, the first time you mentioned this, I addressed it - yet here it comes again. That was my point. You stuck with your perception despite.

Really, I don't believe we disagree that awful much, with the exception of how I use numbers to compare Italy with the US, along with my observations how each country is handling the crisis, differing approaches regarding mitigation and vaccination.  You also posted a helpful video for which I had few, if any objections, but didn't see what you saw.

The remainder of your post seems to be efforts to attack the messenger and not really discourse on our different ways of looking at the same coin.  As you are expressing your opinion, I don't take much mind and try to stick to a more logical and pragmatic approach when discussing 'intense' topics.  You do bring up some good points that make me think a bit, and that's what I enjoy vs others like BillyB.

All-in-all, we differ with our interpretations, but overall, probably not that awful much.  Maybe pick one of the most egregious differences (in your view) we have on this covid topic and let's review it, without all the distractions.

We're a bridge apart, but it doesn't mean it can't be crossed. How far and how long it'll take to cross, I do not know. You and I are not unique in this position. Maybe our own political persuasion and ideals have a huge influence in what and how we digest events these days. At times at the expense of science. The current overall state of discourse by all Americans these days is just so tiring.


Current accounting of deaths in the US by age:
http://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/

Current accounting of vaccination in the US:
http://data.cdc.gov/Vaccinations/COVID-19-Vaccination-and-Case-Trends-by-Age-Group-/gxj9-t96f

Over 94% of deaths were those with at least 2 comorbidities. I understand and support at-risk folks to get vaccinated if they wish to seek protection.

What I don't understand, and reject, why is there such a thing as vaccination mandate/passport, and forces ALL age range who suffer far less than a percentage point of hospitalization and dying, especially the post-infected ones, to get vaccinated.

[Faux Pas]

What I don't understand, and reject, why is there such a thing as vaccination mandate/passport, and forces ALL age range who suffer far less than a percentage point of hospitalization and dying, especially the post-infected ones, to get vaccinated.

Because there is and always has been a different motive for the jab. Big Pharma doesn't give one shit whether you live or die. Forget the fact that one's chances of dying are greater from receiving the jab than it is from covid itself and pretty much the same as dying from the flu. No matter the comorbidities, many, few or none, many folks bodies simply reject the substances in the injection. It is not a vaccine. That is a lie that no matter how many times it's repeated, it is still a lie.

To understand where and what the alternate motivation is one should look into graphene oxide and it's uses. The one common ingredient in all of the jabs that has no business in your body. The rush to 5G and maybe even pfizers latest patent. Dots must be connected. Folks like BC prefer Googles, CNN and Yahoo's interpretation rather than doing it themselves.

The covid plandemic is junk science. Fancy charts and mass media hysteria do not hide that from people actually willing to turn off the news and does not cover up that fact. There is a much more advance science for the uses of graphene than any of them are willing to admit

[GQBlues]

The prevailing science that I am aware of are:

1. Natural immunity (after infection) create at least 20 variation of antibodies (further protection for any mutation/variants), whereas the vaccine was created to fight only antigen and creates one spike protein. Hence, there's concerns about variants.

2. Vaccine efficacy (immunity) last far shorter than that of natural immunity. While they simply do not have the data to actually measure how long does the antibodies last with natural immunity, SARS -COVID 1 antibodies, they're finding out, is still evident today after 18 years.

3. UK studies showed that young boys between the ages of 12-15 (17?) are 4-6 times more likely to be diagnosed with myocarditis after vaccination than be hospitalized due to COVID - yet 86% of those affected required hospital care.

4. Front line workers are either quitting, or getting fired for refusing to get vaccinated. These front line workers are mostly naturally immunized, which as science tell you offer far more 'protection' than vaccinated folks - yet they're causing these precious workers, who are experienced in the care of patients to begin with, in losing their jobs and prevented to continue their services because of these silly mandates.

5. Look at the statistics I posted above. Why disrupt the labor force, and the greater population, that have a survivability rate in excess of 99.95%? Why vaccinate all of them? The concentrated fatalities (+87%) are from those in the 60+ year olds, whom for the most part are no longer in the labor force?

Anyway, I could go on with this, but why bother...

[mhr7]

Big Pharma doesn't give one shit whether you live or die.

Of course they do. Drugs that kill or are ineffective don't make money do they?

[BC]

Speaking of reading too much...how else does one *detail* the sensation other than posting a disclaimer at the end that said: Warning the above information doesn't mean I am severely sick"

One of the common feeling of anyone who experience COVID is the intense feeling of fatigue, and fever in some degree.
 Again, the first time you mentioned this, I addressed it - yet here it comes again. That was my point. You stuck with your perception despite.

This, I believe is a bridge easily crossed.  Amend 'more severe' to 'worse'.

Based on the description you gave of your symptoms, I assume we can agree they were worse than asymptomatic or light cases.

Would that be agreeable?

We're a bridge apart, but it doesn't mean it can't be crossed. How far and how long it'll take to cross, I do not know. You and I are not unique in this position. Maybe our own political persuasion and ideals have a huge influence in what and how we digest events these days. At times at the expense of science. The current overall state of discourse by all Americans these days is just so tiring.

I view the politicization of virus mitigation, a disaster.  One of the most important aspects in the epidemic crisis manual we discussed long ago, is that government be able to formulate and communicate a common message to the public.  With the virus response government was, and still is 'all over the place', from 'It will go away, to millions may die.

http://emergency.cdc.gov/cerc/ppt/CERC_Crisis_Communication_Plans.pdf

The closest we got was Fauci, then Birx but there were quite a few other intervening parties as well.  Government needs to be able to come out with ONE distinct, clear message.  Sure, as the situation changes the message can adapt.  This obviously wasn't the case from the start, and yes even during the present administration.  A bit better maybe, but still with different parts of .gov saying different things.

Current accounting of deaths in the US by age:
http://www.statista.com/statistics/1191568/reported-deaths-from-covid-by-age-us/

Current accounting of vaccination in the US:
http://data.cdc.gov/Vaccinations/COVID-19-Vaccination-and-Case-Trends-by-Age-Group-/gxj9-t96f

Over 94% of deaths were those with at least 2 comorbidities. I understand and support at-risk folks to get vaccinated if they wish to seek protection. [/quote]

There are many millions who may not even know of their comorbidities.  While being overweight should certainly be noticeable, others like diabetes, high blood pressure,  even cancer, liver or kidney disease.  Not to take this off-topic, but many still may be reticent to see a doctor in the first place due to the costs involved.

What I don't understand, and reject, why is there such a thing as vaccination mandate/passport, and forces ALL age range who suffer far less than a percentage point of hospitalization and dying, especially the post-infected ones, to get vaccinated.

That, of course, is a great question.  We weren't that successful in coming closer to a consensus by discussing all the components (vaccine, masking, greenpass etc) involved, so maybe lets try it the other way around, by looking at the results.



The vertical lines indicate the beginning of vaccinations in each country.  Note the dramatic difference with deaths and the Delta variant period indicated by horizontal lines.  How do we account for this difference?  Was it the mandated use of masks in the second country?  Was it because vaccinations of the most vulnerable and elderly were vaccinated first and then progressing by age downward in strict order?  Was it because of the green pass requirements that basically mandated folks to get vaccinated?

My personal view (yes, opinion) is that it was a combination of all three.  Other factors as well, such as centralized healthcare records allowing easy identification and notification of the vulnerable population.

I do get your point about the general health of the population.  The prevalence of diabetes, for example, is double that of the second country(5% vs 10%).  Obesity also (36% vs 20%).  This would lead one to think that the US would be more vulnerable, helping to account for the excess, but if so, why the markedly similar death curves in the pre-vaccination period with death rates that were even higher than in the US? 

Something obviously worked, and green passes were part of the mix, resulting in 81% of the eligible population today (over 12) being fully vaccinated and over 85% including those with at least one shot.  Although there are some protests in the second country as green pass mandates are increasing to include all employees, obviously, this represents only a tiny minority, especially with vaccinations running at 200,000 per day and a record number of green passes being issued daily, 230,000 on the 14th of October alone.

More detailed results:



Infections of unvaccinated folks peaked and is coming down, but do note that the number of infections among vaccinated folks is not going up in proportion and remains at a low rate.  The US 7 day average is 85000 infections per day, 6 times higher than the second country (population adjusted x 5.5) 13000. Ditto for 7 day average daily deaths.



Deaths follow a similar path, albeit delayed.  Yes, the number of deaths among vaccinated folks rose somewhat, but nowhere near that of the unvaccinated, and is also going down.

If one wants to infer that citizens and residents of the second country are 'sheeple', then so be it IMO.  I'd trade a name for these numbers any day.

Your thoughts?
 

[BC]

The prevailing science that I am aware of are:

1. Natural immunity (after infection) create at least 20 variation of antibodies (further protection for any mutation/variants), whereas the vaccine was created to fight only antigen and creates one spike protein. Hence, there's concerns about variants.

Indeed, reports are that natural immunity may well be better than vaccines, but achieving such natural immunity requires infection, which I believe we can agree is quite risky and has cost the lives of almost 750 thousand Americans so far and still counting.  Natural immunity is good, but it seems vaccination may be better and natural immunity plus vaccination even better than that.

This study found that among Kentucky residents who were previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 in 2020, those who were unvaccinated against COVID-19 had significantly higher likelihood of reinfection during May and June 2021. This finding supports the CDC recommendation that all eligible persons be offered COVID-19 vaccination, regardless of previous SARS-CoV-2 infection status.

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm?s_cid=mm7032e1_w

2. Vaccine efficacy (immunity) last far shorter than that of natural immunity. While they simply do not have the data to actually measure how long does the antibodies last with natural immunity, SARS -COVID 1 antibodies, they're finding out, is still evident today after 18 years.

Being only 10 months in as far as vaccination goes, I would think we still have more information forthcoming in the months and even years ahead.

3. UK studies showed that young boys between the ages of 12-15 (17?) are 4-6 times more likely to be diagnosed with myocarditis after vaccination than be hospitalized due to COVID - yet 86% of those affected required hospital care.

Although myocarditis has been identified as a possible concern, there is ongoing debate.

Now a study in the US has analysed how often myocarditis occurs following infection with the coronavirus. Researchers analysed the records of healthcare organisations that cover a fifth of the US population. They found that, during the first 12 months of the pandemic, males aged 12 to 17 were most likely to develop myocarditis within three months of catching covid-19, at a rate of about 450 cases per million infections.
This compares with 67 cases of myocarditis per million males of the same age following their second dose of a Pfizer/BioNTech or Moderna vaccine, according to figures from the US Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices. Researchers added together cases after first and second doses to reach a total rate of 77 cases per million in this male age group triggered by vaccination, a sixth that seen after infection.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg25133462-800-myocarditis-is-more-common-after-covid-19-infection-than-vaccination/

The rate after vaccination is reportedly not that far above the normal rate associated for the same gender/age group.  I'd say the jury is still out on this point, and again, only time and further study will tell.

4. Front line workers are either quitting, or getting fired for refusing to get vaccinated. These front line workers are mostly naturally immunized, which as science tell you offer far more 'protection' than vaccinated folks - yet they're causing these precious workers, who are experienced in the care of patients to begin with, in losing their jobs and prevented to continue their services because of these silly mandates.

We're talking about a small percentage of health workers or?

Example:

Presbyterian Hospital fired about 250 employees who refused to get vaccinated.  According Newsday, Northwell Health, New York’s biggest healthcare system, boasting 19 hospitals and over 77,000 employees, “fired about two dozen ‘unvaccinated leaders’—and that those numbers could grow—for not getting at least their first dose to help protect against the coronavirus.” 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2021/09/30/in-a-dramatic-turn-the-once-herald-nurses-and-healthcare-workers-are-being-fired-for-not-getting-their-vaccination-shots/

5. Look at the statistics I posted above. Why disrupt the labor force, and the greater population, that have a survivability rate in excess of 99.95%? Why vaccinate all of them? The concentrated fatalities (+87%) are from those in the 60+ year olds, whom for the most part are no longer in the labor force?

Again, all reports I've seen state very small numbers, nowhere near rates one could consider as very disruptive.

Anyway, I could go on with this, but why bother...

Because you provoke further thought and investigation which IMO is not a bad thing.

[Faux Pas]

Of course they do. Drugs that kill or are ineffective don't make money do they?

No they don't, hundreds of new customers are born every minute. There is a bigger motive at play here but your mental illness does not permit you to grasp it. It is beyond your comprehension

[GQBlues]

This, I believe is a bridge easily crossed.  Amend 'more severe' to 'worse'.

Would that be agreeable?

Reluctantly agree with asymptomatic cases ("they didn't even know they had it"). As for "light cases", if this means no hospitalization involved, no medication taken, was able to continue daily activity, then I submit to disagree that my case was 'worse' as those episodes are exactly what I went through with my experience.

I view the politicization of virus mitigation, a disaster.  One of the most important aspects in the epidemic crisis manual we discussed long ago, is that government be able to formulate and communicate a common message to the public.  With the virus response government was, and still is 'all over the place', from 'It will go away, to millions may die.

http://emergency.cdc.gov/cerc/ppt/CERC_Crisis_Communication_Plans.pdf

The closest we got was Fauci, then Birx but there were quite a few other intervening parties as well.  Government needs to be able to come out with ONE distinct, clear message.  Sure, as the situation changes the message can adapt.  This obviously wasn't the case from the start, and yes even during the present administration. A bit better maybe, but still with different parts of .gov saying different things.

'Better' is arguable. Two senior scientists resigned immediately after a WH task force made a premature announcement void of any scientific and/or medical consultation.

Apples and oranges theory here..

in which you asked:

Your thoughts?

I haven't changed my stance regarding this theory of yours. Like the subject of CFR we discussed, far too many variables to consider to come to any absolution. Much like comparing a person's characters, health, behavior, etc...from another. It is highly subjective.

But, as I have explained my point before, the lone and consistent fact we can agree on is that this virus is far more lethal to persons with comorbidities, thus which, making the most vulnerable are in their advanced ages of any given population. I would hope there is no argument in that statement.

Having said that, we can evaluate the validity of that statement by looking at reported COVID deaths by age between say, USA/Italy, and you can easily see that concentrated death counts are mostly in the >55 age group. In addition, looking at world-o-meter report today, the US so far suffered 724,000 deaths, while Italy amassed 132,000 deaths. Take these two 'numbers' and extrapolate it according to 'population' differential ratio, which is 5.5; you can then easily determine how it validates what we so far know to be 'consistent' (no longer variable).

132,000 multiplied by differential ratio of 5.5 results in 726,000. Bigger sampling, results in greater frequency. Equivalency. Consistency. Near absolution, and I say 'near' simply because the US is more 'unhealthy' overall if compared to the overall health of an average Italian. The latter part would be another subject of discussion.


So, not sure how you deduced one is 'better' than the other?

Indeed, reports are that natural immunity may well be better than vaccines, but achieving such natural immunity requires infection, which I believe we can agree is quite risky and has cost the lives of almost 750 thousand Americans so far and still counting.  Natural immunity is good, but it seems vaccination may be better and natural immunity plus vaccination even better than that.

I disagree.

Firstly, I'm not advocating people get infected to acquire natural immunity. The bolded part is, IMO, sheer pro-vaccination BS.

1. It isn't news anymore to know that natural immunity post-COVID infection causes multiple antibodies compared to the vaccine lone spiked protein. While antibody creation isn't widely consistent for every individual, the range of 88-90% of those previously infected did in fact carried these antibodies. Dr. Campbell also reiterated in the video above that natural immunity causes the B-cell to hold a much longer term memory in the cells in case the body gets attacked by the virus, or a variation of it, in the future than that of the vaccine.

2. But the more compelling reason is, studies had already validated this, but prevailing pro-vaccination narrative refuses to discuss this broadly, validate pre-prints for reviews thus delay acceptance of filed clinical trials by multiple medical centers in the the world.

Specifically, of all infections during the study period, 99.3% occurred in participants who were not infected previously and remained unvaccinated. In contrast, only 0.7% of infections occurred in participants who were not previously infected but were currently vaccinated. Importantly, not a single incidence of SARS-CoV-2 infection was observed in previously infected participants with or without vaccination.

No point vaccinating those who’ve had COVID-19: Cleveland Clinic study suggests (news-medical.net)

Conclusion: This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.

http://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1

As for your citation in Kentucky:

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7032e1.htm?s_cid=mm7032e1_w

Pay close attention to the disclaimer citing '5 limitations' in that study.

Being only 10 months in as far as vaccination goes, I would think we still have more information forthcoming in the months and even years ahead.

Although myocarditis has been identified as a possible concern, there is ongoing debate.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg25133462-800-myocarditis-is-more-common-after-covid-19-infection-than-vaccination/

The rate after vaccination is reportedly not that far above the normal rate associated for the same gender/age group.  I'd say the jury is still out on this point, and again, only time and further study will tell.

This is dubious at best, BC. I read the article you posted, and in it, it reported the citation was based on a researched myocarditis COVID-induced study in the US since the beginning of the pandemic. Yet if you click on the link, the article was about the UK, at least for what I can read since it blocked further reading without a subscription, and, point to be made, the study conducted in the US was for all ages (0-75+)

Moreover, even CDC didn't have an isolated study for the specific group we're talking about. CDC acknowledges there's 'reports' of heightened cases of post-vaccination myocarditis in boys between the age of 12-15, but didn't follow-up any concluding studies. Yet, they continue to mandate vaccination anyway. This even prompted this reaction.

But even if you (pro-vaccine of all ages advocates) dismissed all of these, let's look into what we can actually discern and know.

In the US, there had been 513 deaths from kids ages 0-17 (both sexes). By the time you extrapolate actual count, then isolate 'boys between the age 12-17', extracting any number you'd like to use for ages 0-11 and also 'girls' (513 divided by 17, multiplied by 5 (12-17), then extract half the net number (roughly equal number of sexes) - then divide this by the total number of reported cases (45 million); you're going to find a number finitely smaller against those numbers you threw as a counter argument of not getting vaccinated.

The point being made here is (as with the reactionary article I referred to), it makes absolutely NO SENSE why would  vaccination be mandatory across the board PERIOD especially if one considers we have no way of knowing what the potential long term effect of this vaccine. The fact is, based on a vivid information we can all see today - KIDS are literally invincible against this virus. Right behind them are people younger than 50.

We're talking about a small percentage of health workers or?

Example:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jackkelly/2021/09/30/in-a-dramatic-turn-the-once-herald-nurses-and-healthcare-workers-are-being-fired-for-not-getting-their-vaccination-shots/

Again, all reports I've seen state very small numbers, nowhere near rates one could consider as very disruptive.

You're being very selective, maybe even short-sighted.

In NY alone, its' been cited nearly 13,300 stands to get fired. Same in SoCal, where nearly a quarter (25%) of these workers stand to get fired. Project this in the entire country, then factoring in current conditions.

But this (health industry) isn't a lone case in the overall labor matter. It is mandated any private companies employing over 100 exercise the mandate. All government agencies - 100% enforcement.

Again, the vast majority of these labor forces belong to the very vast majority of people NOT vulnerable to this virus. How this mandate makes sense in disrupting our socio-economic productivity is more than a cause of alarm. Most especially in this current labor situation.

I will remind you, it was estimated that 80% of COVID cases were asymptomatic, given the total 'reported' cases in the US is at approx. 45 million - a number which represents 20% if their estimate is correct, this puts the US (by technicality) well within the 'herd immunity' concept. 67% vaccinated (221 million) + recovered 'asymptomatic' cases (225 million). Well over the 330 million. That means vaccine-immuned and naturally-immuned makes us a completely immune society. Maybe the word 'herd' is misleading considering the former group I mentioned above should actually be described as a 'flock'.
Whatever happened to all these science they've been throwing over us before? Follow the money?

[fathertime]

[/color]

You're being very selective, maybe even short-sighted.

In NY alone, its' been cited nearly 13,300 stands to get fired. Same in SoCal, where nearly a quarter (25%) of these workers stand to get fired. Project this in the entire country, then factoring in current conditions

My boy had an asymptomatic case already, yet he will be mandated to have the vaccination next school year I am being told.    Not delighted to hear this, would love not to comply, but may be forced to comply or he has to be educated at home, and he is much better off going to school.    Who the hell voted for this newsome character?  Where the hell is larry elder now? 

Fathertime! 

[mhr7]

No they don't, hundreds of new customers are born every minute. There is a bigger motive at play here but your mental illness does not permit you to grasp it. It is beyond your comprehension

Yep, once again I'm too stupid to understand conspiracy BS.

[Trenchcoat]

My boy had an asymptomatic case already, yet he will be mandated to have the vaccination next school year I am being told.    Not delighted to hear this, would love not to comply, but may be forced to comply or he has to be educated at home, and he is much better off going to school.    Who the hell voted for this newsome character?  Where the hell is larry elder now? 

Fathertime!

If the vaccine is still regarded as emergency/experimental etc then, then I would say it's wrong on those grounds as surely it should be down to individual right not to have something that isn't fully passed all stages as would normally be the case. If bad effects did cone out in the future then they will have forced him to have taken an experimental vaccine that did him harm.

[BC]

Reluctantly agree

'Better' is arguable.

I haven't changed my stance

Having said that, we can evaluate 

I disagree.

Pay close attention

This is dubious at best

You're being very selective

I will remind you

GQ,

Kind thanks for your thoughts and the time you took to respond. I do appreciate it.

Even though we disagree on some, maybe many points, I do believe we at least understand where we each stand and have listened to each other in a respectful manner (which is often a big ask around here   As far as the facts go, we're still learning. Time will tell, maybe in ways, we both might be able to agree with. You correctly state that there are many variables.  We each form our opinions based on what we see happening, and yes, our individual biases also play a role.

In another week or so I'll review my post a while back with the calculations of post-vaccination deaths and see what has changed, if anything.

[Trenchcoat]

UK infection rate remains stubbornly high meanwhile it has been suggested that it may be a result of a Delta Plus variant that may be more transmissible still than the Delta variant, both just as deadly:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-17/u-k-covid-case-load-prompts-gottlieb-call-for-urgent-research

Ukraine virus figures and deaths going down a bit but possibly due to weekend calculation or possibly not being fully calculated as it's pretty soon to dip down again but will have to see how that goes.

Still this virus seems to not be fully letting us out of its grasp, yet. How much of a long haul we might be in for on this one remains to be seen.

[GQBlues]

RIP - fully vaccinated Colin Powell died at 84 of COVID complications...May he rest in peace. And may they stop calling these cases 'breakthrough cases' because they never were. Suppressed information doesn't mean they are not prevalent.


May everyone within the concentrated group of at-risk' set, exercise caution diligently. Don't believe the hype, if you have any of the listed medical condition/s, or any condition that have been proven to be one that causes death once contracting the virus, be very aware vaccination will not necessarily protect you.


Get and stay healthy. Take your proper prescribed medication according to your medical condition. Exercise. Observe proper nutrition. Mind your vitamin 'D' levels, take supplements if you need it (now not when you get sick). Eat food high in antioxidants (blueberries, etc..). 

[BC]

May everyone within the concentrated group of at-risk' set, exercise caution diligently. Don't believe the hype, if you have any of the listed medical condition/s, or any condition that have been proven to be one that causes death once contracting the virus, be very aware vaccination will not necessarily protect you.

Indeed. There have been prior studies of vaccines and multiple myeloma, indicating only 45% of those with this blood disease achieve adequate responses to the vaccines.  Diligence would include getting vaccinated, wearing masks where appropriate etc.

http://www.nature.com/articles/s41375-021-01354-7