Russian Women Discussion

RWD Discussion Groups => Cultural and Political Events => Topic started by: JayH on August 21, 2018, 03:40:35 AM

Title: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: JayH on August 21, 2018, 03:40:35 AM
The lessons of history are there for those that choose to see . Not so funnily --is how history has a habit of repeating itself.

It seems the Russians never learn from their stupidity !

For me --these events of history in the USSR had my attention from a young age. My father was present at the water polo at the Melbourne Olympics in 1956  when the Hungarians went after the Russians and the blood turned the pool red !
I heard the story many times as a child !
Later  -- my first real girlfriend was from Czechoslovakia  as her family fled from the oppression -- so I took a keen interest in the uprising there/

The anniversary  of that invasion by Russia is today.

Hopefully--Ukraine's revolution of dignity can shake the Russians out of Ukraine forever!!


50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom (and a Broken Spirit)


PRAGUE — Could Soviet-style communism be reconciled with the dignity and freedom of the individual?

In 1968, the question was put to the test when the leader of Czechoslovakia’s Communist Party, Alexander Dubcek, initiated a project of liberalization that he said would offer “socialism with a human face.”

What followed was a rebirth of political and cultural freedom long denied by party leaders loyal to Moscow.

The free press flourished, artists and writers spoke their minds, and Mr. Dubcek stunned Moscow by proclaiming that he wanted to create “a free, modern and profoundly humane society.”

A season when hope and optimism were in bloom, it became known as the Prague Spring.

But nearly as soon as the movement came to life, it was crushed under the treads of Soviet T-54 tanks.

On Aug. 21, 50 years ago, the Soviet-led invasion of Czechoslovakia killed the dreams of the reformers, broke the spirit of a nation and ushered in an era of oppression whose effects are still felt today.

Moscow succeeded in restoring the supremacy of the state, but the ultimate cost of victory was high.

Perhaps more than any other event during the Cold War, the invasion laid bare for the world to see the totalitarian nature of the Soviet regime.


http://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/20/world/europe/prague-spring-communism.html


Hungarian Revolution
1956


Hungarian Revolution, popular uprising in Hungary in 1956, following a speech by Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev in which he attacked the period of Joseph Stalin’s rule. Encouraged by the new freedom of debate and criticism, a rising tide of unrest and discontent in Hungary broke out into active fighting in October 1956. Rebels won the first phase of the revolution, and Imre Nagy became premier, agreeing to establish a multiparty system. On November 1, 1956, he declared Hungarian neutrality and appealed to the United Nations for support, but Western powers were reluctant to risk a global confrontation. On November 4 the Soviet Union invaded Hungary to stop the revolution, and Nagy was executed for treason in 1958. Nevertheless, Stalinist-type domination and exploitation did not return, and Hungary thereafter experienced a slow evolution toward some internal autonomy.


http://www.britannica.com/event/Hungarian-Revolution-1956


Blood in the water: Hungary's 1956 water polo gold


One of the hardest-fought contests in Olympic history was a water polo match between Hungary and the USSR in 1956 - a match which came to symbolise the Hungarian struggle against Soviet rule.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-14575260
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: Boethius on August 21, 2018, 04:03:16 AM
Quote
Hopefully--Ukraine's revolution of dignity can shake the Russians out of Ukraine forever!!

History suggests this won't happen.  I don't think Russia wants Ukraine, though some may want Kyiv, as it figures prominently in Russian fairy tales, is the city of the founders of Rus', etc.  Russia will have trouble with its regions within its own vast country, it doesn't need more land. 

I don't think Ukraine's revolution is one of dignity.  They have had two failed revolutions which did not shake the strength of the oligarchs, or lessen entrenched political corruption.  Governance is a mess.

I also think that the cultural ties between Central/Eastern Ukraine and Russia are so strong, Russians will always be tied to Ukraine, and vice versa.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, and it goes back centuries.

http://www.ciuspress.com/catalogue/culture-and-society/9/the-ukrainian-impact-on-russian-culture%2C-1750-1850 (http://www.ciuspress.com/catalogue/culture-and-society/9/the-ukrainian-impact-on-russian-culture%2C-1750-1850)
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: BdHvA on August 21, 2018, 06:08:45 AM
History suggests this won't happen.  I don't think Russia wants Ukraine, though some may want Kyiv, as it figures prominently in Russian fairy tales, is the city of the founders of Rus', etc.  Russia will have trouble with its regions within its own vast country, it doesn't need more land. 

I don't think Ukraine's revolution is one of dignity.  They have had two failed revolutions which did not shake the strength of the oligarchs, or lessen entrenched political corruption.  Governance is a mess.

I also think that the cultural ties between Central/Eastern Ukraine and Russia are so strong, Russians will always be tied to Ukraine, and vice versa.  That's not necessarily a bad thing, and it goes back centuries.

http://www.ciuspress.com/catalogue/culture-and-society/9/the-ukrainian-impact-on-russian-culture%2C-1750-1850 (http://www.ciuspress.com/catalogue/culture-and-society/9/the-ukrainian-impact-on-russian-culture%2C-1750-1850)

Yes I suspect Ukraine will always be 'tied' to Russia but as an observation and I am seeing it like Jay as an outsider. Ukraine after two failed revolutions has a greater sense of nationhood than before. I am not saying this from any article but more from being in the country.

Will the people of Ukraine triumph over the ogliarchs that is hard to say, but I suspect time is on the side of the people. Russia has moved beyond fairy tales and and the lies of communism. The leaders in the Kremlin know this.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: DaveNY on August 21, 2018, 06:45:20 AM
I don't think Russia wants Ukraine,

Putin wants Ukraine or at least the parts of Ukraine that give Russia a land bridge to Crimea and the coastal parts of Ukraine that make a land bridge to Moldova and of course to Romania, NATO's doorstep.

The coastal parts of Ukraine would give Russia ready made ports on the Black Sea. They would also give Russia rights to any oil and mineral rights on the Black Sea. Why wouldn't Russia want Ukraine?
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: rwd123 on August 21, 2018, 11:57:07 PM
Ukraine has dignity? It is a hollowed out country. I have Ukrainian friends and enjoy going there, but as a society it has essentially collapsed.

Politics are dominated by US-backed or Russian-backed interests. 2014 was a US-backed movement. The Donbass separatists are Russian-backed. Without US financial support the Ukrainian government would collapse and Russia would take over.

Russia wants Ukraine as a buffer from NATO. Much like it previously wanted Eastern Europe as a buffer. I don't believe territorial sovereignty is the major driver. There's also historical context because culturally the two are rather intertwined.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: JayH on August 22, 2018, 01:46:40 AM
Ukraine has dignity? It is a hollowed out country. I have Ukrainian friends and enjoy going there, but as a society it has essentially collapsed.

Politics are dominated by US-backed or Russian-backed interests. 2014 was a US-backed movement. The Donbass separatists are Russian-backed. Without US financial support the Ukrainian government would collapse and Russia would take over.

Russia wants Ukraine as a buffer from NATO. Much like it previously wanted Eastern Europe as a buffer. I don't believe territorial sovereignty is the major driver. There's also historical context because culturally the two are rather intertwined.


Rubbish, rubbish and more rubbish

The  Donbas "separatists" are Russian military  ie  it is a Russian invasion that has disrupted  Ukraine
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: JayH on August 22, 2018, 02:07:03 AM
Yes I suspect Ukraine will always be 'tied' to Russia but as an observation and I am seeing it like Jay as an outsider. Ukraine after two failed revolutions has a greater sense of nationhood than before. I am not saying this from any article but more from being in the country.

Will the people of Ukraine triumph over the ogliarchs that is hard to say, but I suspect time is on the side of the people.

Back in 2014  after the invasion of Crimea and of eastern Ukraine  I witnessed first hand the change of attitudes and the new awareness and hope in Ukrainians  for Ukraine.
At the same time --  on the forums and elsewhere -- I was continually told by those with exposure from a yesteryear my assessment was wrong etc etc etc  Add in the extensive disinformation and Russian propaganda designed to confuse the issues it is easy enough in retrospect to see how misguided many were.
That is what makes the shift in Ukrainian attitudes even more remarkable -- and praiseworthy.
I am not for one minute suggesting this is over -- it is far from over -- but there is significant progress being made. The ordinary people are hurting with  inflation. the shift to a user pays basis on utilities -- and out of touch pension and wages not in line with inflation.The plus is -- there are many signs and results of new foreign investment impacting and creating jobs.
None of that is to say that THE major issue of corruption is not an issue-it MUST be dealt with -- somehow.

Av makes the point that as an "outsider" sometimes you can see and learn things not obvious to those "in the system" -- I  can see that too.
A point I have made long ago-- Ukraine does not need to reinvent the wheel --many issues faced have solutions existing in other countries already.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: rwd123 on August 22, 2018, 02:23:27 AM

Rubbish, rubbish and more rubbish

The  Donbas "separatists" are Russian military  ie  it is a Russian invasion that has disrupted  Ukraine
I think it is naive to ignore US interests in Ukraine.

http://michael-hudson.com/2014/09/losing-credibility-the-imfs-new-cold-war-loan-to-ukraine/

It is a proxy cold war and the Ukrainian people suffer for it.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: krimster2 on August 22, 2018, 03:23:28 AM
(snicker)
"the IMF approved a $17 billion loan program to Ukraine’s junta"


gozpedy, didn't EVERYONE get the memo!!!!
don't use Kremlin language, when you write pro-Kremlin articles

IMF loans are made to repay Ukraine's debt payments to private lenders like banks and hedge funds, I mean when it's not stolen of course
without this IMF money, Ukraine would have defaulted years ago on its foreign debt
and banks and hedge funds would be sad...
and bonuses smaller...
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: JayH on August 22, 2018, 03:28:10 AM

don't use Kremlin language, when you write pro-Kremlin articles



Yeah -- how naive  ;D
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: krimster2 on August 22, 2018, 08:27:57 AM
“Back in 2014  after the invasion of Crimea and of eastern Ukraine  I witnessed first hand the change of attitudes and the new awareness and hope in Ukrainians  for Ukraine.”

Jay, I actually like you man, and I APPRECIATE your passion on the subject, and I KNOW you have a LOT of first hand knowledge, so please don’t go all “Waltzing Matilda” on what I’m about to say about this subject, and this is NOT a criticism of you personally, so don’t take it that way, you are probably a total Australian stud muffin, who’d make msmob look like “Mr Bean”, and you see who msmob hangs out with...

“change of attitudes and the new awareness and hope in Ukrainians”

this “so called change" was “EXACTLY the same in the Orange Revolution”
EXACTLY, and wouldn’t surprise me if it was exactly the same “change of attitudes and the new awareness” when the soviet union collapsed and Ukraine became independent

the great mass of people in Ukraine, have ALWAYS felt this way

and politicians have ALWAYS used this desire of change as a promise to be kept if elected
and it is immediately discarded while they loot whatever crumbs are left on the table

a revolution, means to go in a circle and return to the point you started from
Ukraine has had many “revolutions”, but it always returns to the same place

Ukraine is just as corrupt today as it always has been, and the upcoming spring election will be about corruption, just like the election before it, and the election before that one, and the one before that

If you’re in Ukraine, March is going to be a dangerous time, if you’re in Dnipro, and get cut-off from Kyiv or Odessa, you might have a problem...
I’d be prepared if I were you, food, dollars/euros
stay away from targets
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: GQBlues on August 22, 2018, 08:54:23 AM
I think it is naive to ignore US interests in Ukraine.
...
It is a proxy cold war and the Ukrainian people suffer for it.

BIG *Oopppss* Wrong board. Been there, done that. LOL. Don't mind me skipping your link either. Don't want to disrupt the dream. (Poor ol' Mr. Dubcek. He's reduced to having his effort compared to the 2014 Ukrainian Maidan)!

Anyway rwd, 'round here these parts, the 2014 maidan was a fairy tale, mystical event in Ukraine. Or as Nuland described it..

Quote from: Victoria Nuland
...the streets were lined with grandmothers holding flowers in their hands...

It was a revolution of 'Hope and Change'! The type of story akin to the Knights and Dragons fantasy void of western influence and hegemony. Just like the celebration we lay witness on the streets of Benghazi. Even now, Europe is so celebrated, people of the regions are risking theirs lives to run into their arms to thank them for all their overwhelming effort and assistance to free them and give them the life and culture they oh-so richly deserve.

They just can't thank all of us enough. This was NEVER about that precious black gold and domination, no sireee, Bob! The US's involvement there, and everywhere else like Libya, are acts of kindness and empathy to humankind.

Hallelujah! I say...
Be resigned as I am watching these children enjoy their bedtime stories of promise, of innocence, of fairies and unicorn. There's joy for me watching kids play with square balls.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: Boethius on August 22, 2018, 09:01:58 AM
I think it is naive to ignore US interests in Ukraine.

http://michael-hudson.com/2014/09/losing-credibility-the-imfs-new-cold-war-loan-to-ukraine/ (http://michael-hudson.com/2014/09/losing-credibility-the-imfs-new-cold-war-loan-to-ukraine/)

It is a proxy cold war and the Ukrainian people suffer for it.

First, re the link, the blog is incorrect about Ukraine ethnically cleansing regions.  There was never any desire to ethnically cleanse any region of Ukraine. 

I don't believe the US has a desire to use Ukraine in a proxy cold war with Russia.  If it did, it would have installed far more effective leaders.  I think Ukraine came into the West's orbit initially so that nuclear disarmament would occur, and so that more dangerous players, such as Iran, or terrorists, did not gain access to those nuclear materials.


GQ, no, Maidan 2014 wasn't mystical.  I predicted it would fail, because the institutional structures have not changed.  However, give credit where credit is due.  Thousands of ordinary Ukrainians protested because of corruption.  With some of the revelations in the Manafort charges, we see just how craven that power was.  At some point, if things don't change, protest won't be peaceful.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: GQBlues on August 22, 2018, 10:04:33 AM
IMHO, comparing the 2014 maidan to Prague Spring is blasphemous. An insult to Alexander Dubcek and the Czech and Slovakian people. This displays a complete lack of understanding of what the Prague Spring was about.


Carry on...
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: Boethius on August 22, 2018, 10:05:51 AM
So please enlighten us.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: GQBlues on August 22, 2018, 10:15:54 AM
LOL. For starters, Dubcek was not NOTHING like Oleh Tyahnybok and any of the ensuing 'leader' you'd like to present here.

The Czech/Slovaks didn't cannibalized and turned on each other in the aftermath.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: Boethius on August 22, 2018, 10:25:21 AM
Oleh Tyahnybok was a marginal player, at best, in Maidan, and held little power in the new government.

The Czechs and Slovaks had no opportunity to "cannibalize" each other, because the communist party (KSC) clamped down on all dissent.  Expressions of nationalism, or national aspiration, are not allowed in communist systems of government.  The Czechs and Slovaks also did not face foreign agents who fomented such discord.

Finally, the Czechs and Slovaks did divorce after the collapse of communism.


Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: GQBlues on August 22, 2018, 10:30:03 AM
Oleh Tyahnybok was a marginal player, at best, in Maidan, and held little power in the new government.

The Czechs and Slovaks had no opportunity to "cannibalize" each other, because the communist party clamped down on all dissent.  National expression is not allowed in communist systems of government.  They also didn't have foreign agents fomenting such discord.

http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12

Finally, the Czechs and Slovaks did divorce after the collapse of communism.

Like I said...comparing the two is a blasphemy...
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: Boethius on August 22, 2018, 10:32:57 AM
So what is the purpose of your link?  He had little to do with Maidan.


You haven't explained why it is blasphemy.  You do realize, the Prague Spring was not about changing the course of the country, don't you?
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: GQBlues on August 22, 2018, 10:46:00 AM
So what is the purpose of your link?  He had little to do with Maidan.


You haven't explained why it is blasphemy.  You do realize, the Prague Spring was not about changing the course of the country, don't you?


 :P  Just because you deny it doesn't mean I haven't made the case you asked for.


The impetus of Prague Spring was Dubcek's attempt to grant additional rights to the CITIZENS OF CZECHOSLOVAKIA through decentralization and democratization. To give freedom to rights of expression, travel, and language/speech.


One of the first thing Ukraine tried to do was to ban Russian and other ethnic languages within its territory.


Go ahead and deny this, too.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: GQBlues on August 22, 2018, 10:59:16 AM
Further-

There was/were no Czech or Slovak citizen that financed and composed a militant army for the sole purpose of murdering its own citizens.


Just IMHO.


Carry on...
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: Boethius on August 22, 2018, 11:06:53 AM
No, that wasn't what Prague Spring was really about.  No democratization.  That's a romantic Western concept.  The same thing occurred in the Ukrainian FSR in 1972, with the same result, though tanks weren't required.

Your post has no back up.  Tyahnybok has such "pull" in Ukraine that he garnered 1.16% of the vote in the presidential election, and his party won less than 5% of the vote in the 2014 elections, therefore, he does not even hold a seat in the Rada.  So yeah, he has had a huge influence in Ukraine. :rolleyes:

Ukraine did not ban Russian on its territory.  We've been through this before.  There is Russian media, Russian language schools, Russian is used predominantly in business.  Services are provided in Russian, even today, in Ukrainian government.  The only change was that Yanukovych had promised Russian would be given official state language status, meaning government documents would be printed in Russian, as they now are printed only in Ukrainian.  The government reversed this.  So whatever source you are reading on this issue is deeply flawed.  There are even Russian language schools in that hotbed of Ukrainian nationalism, L'viv.

Go to Ukraine sometime - Kyiv, Kharkiv, Odesa, Dnipropetrovsk even L'viv.  You will hear that "banned" Russian on the streets everywhere.  In Kyiv, if you speak Russian anywhere, you will be answered in Russian.  If  you speak Ukrainian you will be answered in Ukrainian.  The sky is falling for Russian speakers!  Poor Russians.  So oppressed in Ukraine.

The Ukrainian army is financed to defend the borders of Ukraine.  Borders which were breached by Russia.  Do you think the US would just stand by and allow, say, the Chinese army to invade the US, occupy all of Texas, and stand by while they implemented plans to take the rest of the country?
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: Boethius on August 22, 2018, 11:22:27 AM
I've posted this before.  Euromaidan press is Ukraine biased, but this article is accurate on the language law -

http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/05/25/ukrainian-vs-russian-the-ban-that-never-was/ (http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/05/25/ukrainian-vs-russian-the-ban-that-never-was/)


Russian always had regional language status, that never changed.  Furthermore, Ukraine's constitution explicitly protects minority language rights.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: GQBlues on August 22, 2018, 11:30:13 AM
No, that wasn't what Prague Spring was really about.  No democratization.  That's a romantic Western concept.  The same thing occurred in the Ukrainian FSR in 1972, with the same result, though tanks weren't required.


 :o  LOL. Really now?!? And this is solely according to you, or the people of Czech/Slovakia?

Quote
On April 5th 1968, Dubček embarked on a programme of reform that included amendments to the constitution of Czechoslovakia that would have brought back a degree of political democracy and greater personal freedom.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/modern-world-history-1918-to-1980/the-cold-war/the-prague-spring-of-1968/ (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/modern-world-history-1918-to-1980/the-cold-war/the-prague-spring-of-1968/)

From a Slovakian perspective of THEIR history:

Quote
After the initial dogmatic and sectarian period, when the Stalinist ‘builders’ of communism dominated politics with the far-reaching economic, social and moral failures that entailed, the communist experiment in Czechoslovakia was given another chance in the late 1960s, when a movement for democratization and modernization emerged. The symbol and living legend of this movement, known as “socialism with a human face”,

http://www.mzv.sk/web/en/slovakia/slovaks-through-the-century/1968-dubceks-czechoslovak-prague-spring

 ;)

...Your post has no back up.  Tyahnybok has such "pull" in Ukraine that he garnered 1.16% of the vote in the presidential election, and his party won less than 5% of the vote in the 2014 elections, therefore, he does not even hold a seat in the Rada.  So yeah, he has had a huge influence in Ukraine. :rolleyes:

Ukraine did not ban Russian on its territory.  We've been through this before.  There is Russian media, Russian language schools, Russian is used predominantly in business.  Services are provided in Russian, even today, in Ukrainian government.  The only change was that Yanukovych had promised Russian would be given official language status, meaning government documents would be printed in Russian, as they now are printed only in Ukrainian.  The government reversed this.  So whatever source you are reading on this issue is deeply flawed.  There are even Russian language schools in that hotbed of Ukrainian nationalism, L'viv.

Go to Ukraine sometime - Kyiv, Kharkiv, Odesa, Dnipropetrovsk even L'viv.  You will hear that "banned" Russian on the streets everywhere.  In Kyiv, if you speak Russian anywhere, you will be answered in Russian.  If  you speak Ukrainian you will be answered in Ukrainian.  The sky is falling for Russian speakers!  Poor Russians.  So oppressed in Ukraine.

Quote from: Poroshenko June 28, 2014
I always said before and I repeat this again now, that, the Verkhovna rada’s decision to ban Russian as a regional language was a mistake. I stressed many times during my presidential campaign that this law would never get my approval,” he said. Poroshenko expressed hope that “never again in the history of Ukraine will the issue of language or culture endanger national unity”.

Yeppers, man.

The Ukrainian army is financed to defend the borders of Ukraine.  Borders which were breached by Russia.  Do you think the US would just stand by and allow, say, the Chinese army to invade the US, occupy all of Texas, and stand by while they implemented plans to take the rest of the country?

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/03/26/Ukraine-s-New-Problem-Oligarch-Private-Army (http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/03/26/Ukraine-s-New-Problem-Oligarch-Private-Army)

So how does any of this compares Dubcek's Prague Spring to a 'T' again?
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: Boethius on August 22, 2018, 11:38:06 AM
LOL. Really now?!? And this is solely according to you, or the people of Czech/Slovakia?

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/modern-world-history-1918-to-1980/the-cold-war/the-prague-spring-of-1968/ (http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/modern-world-history-1918-to-1980/the-cold-war/the-prague-spring-of-1968/)


According to experts who study comparative communism.  There are whole scholarly journals devoted to this study.  So your link isn't really of interest to me.  I'm interested in your thoughts on how it is different.

[quote[So how does any of this compares Dubcek's Prague Spring to a 'T' again?



I never posted it did.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: GQBlues on August 22, 2018, 11:47:24 AM
According to experts who study comparative communism.  There are whole scholarly journals devoted to this study.  So your link isn't really of interest to me.

LOL. The go wrestle that with the entire population of Slovakia (since Alexander Dubcek IS (was) a Slovak) and let them know their take on their own history is wrong, and YOU'RE right.


I'm interested in your thoughts on how it is different.

See post #s 15, 19, 20 and 23.

I never posted it did.

Oh good! Then you agree with me that comparing the two events is blasphemous...

Like I said..carry on.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: krimster2 on August 22, 2018, 12:30:39 PM
"I'm interested in your thoughts on how it is different."


BO, the person you’re arguing with is copy/pasting their information from wikipedia
so he has NO THOUGHTS himself on how it is different, he’s just trying to bait you, don’t let him...

BO, up there in that Canada, did your University have a monthly copy of "Problems of Communism"
it was published by the US State Dept, sick hospital green cover?

you familiar by any chance, it's been published FOR decades back to the 50s/60s

Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: GQBlues on August 22, 2018, 01:40:50 PM
"I'm interested in your thoughts on how it is different."


BO, the person you’re arguing with is copy/pasting their information from wikipedia
so he has NO THOUGHTS himself on how it is different, he’s just trying to bait you, don’t let him...

So impressive! You are so right!
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: msmob on August 22, 2018, 03:37:35 PM
IMHO, comparing the 2014 maidan to Prague Spring is blasphemous. An insult to Alexander Dubcek and the Czech and Slovakian people. This displays a complete lack of understanding of what the Prague Spring was about.


Carry on...

I'm wondering what planet you're on GQblues ...

 I wasn't there in 2014 but was there just before and after the first OR..

You are insulting those who risked their livelihoods and lives by standing up to what was ( both times) an attempt to break free of Oligarchy control of their lives.

Ukraine has plenty of Dubčeks and Havels - you're being not a little intensive / insulting

 
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: GQBlues on August 22, 2018, 04:02:08 PM
I'm wondering what planet you're on GQblues ...

 I wasn't there in 2014 but was there just before and after the first OR..

You are insulting those who risked their livelihoods and lives by standing up to what was ( both times) an attempt to break free of Oligarchy control of their lives.

Ukraine has plenty of Dubčeks and Havels - you're being not a little intensive / insulting


You got that in reverse. Since Prague Spring happened prior to maidan, it is, IMHO, an insult to Czechs/Slovaks to compare 'it' to 2014 maidan. I already explained myself as to why it isn't even remotely comparable.

Now, if you believe IT IS comparable, please explain, or *as the powers that be on this board would like to say*, I quote: *don't litter the board with your basura as it isn't just for you* end quote.

So please explain your point how it is one and the same.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: GQBlues on August 22, 2018, 04:05:43 PM
btw, sorry. To answer your Q, my planet is called 'earth'. Third rock from the sun. You?
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: msmob on August 23, 2018, 12:46:31 AM
Quote from: GQBlues

You got that in reverse.

Nope and you're just deflecting from my point - re insulting ...





Quote from: GQBlues
So please explain your point how it is one and the same.

I already did - and you know it ..


But here's the most obvious point ..  Just over seventy Czechs and Slovaks lost their lives when the Prague Spring was put down ...  Remind us how many Ukrainians have died in 2014 ?

 



Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: BdHvA on August 23, 2018, 01:07:29 AM

 I wasn't there in 2014 but was there just before and after the first OR..

You are insulting those who risked their livelihoods and lives by standing up to what was ( both times) an attempt to break free of Oligarchy control of their lives.

Ukraine has plenty of Dubčeks and Havels - you're being not a little intensive / insulting

Moby, You are delusional!

During the Czech spring and that in Hungary there was no attempt to 'break free' of any Oligarchy. It was a failed attempt to restore freedom and personal rights. For what it is worth both Poland and Ukraine also had uprisings against Communism that were squashed.

Sadly Ukraine has not had a V. Havel or L. Wałęsa.

Feel free to list in the post Communist era any patriots to the people of Ukraine.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: JayH on August 23, 2018, 01:14:43 AM


Sadly Ukraine has not had a V. Havel or L. Wałęsa.


I nearly wrote earlier that I now believe  Ukraine needs a charismatic leader  with a  wide ranging blueprint  across the entire landscape that can harness the mood of Maidan and move the entire country forward .

What is certain -that leader is not amongst  the yesterday's  people.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: krimster2 on August 23, 2018, 01:34:42 AM
yes!

I thought it was "Nadia" when she got out of her Russian prison
but no....
you can wait for the messiah a long time, and sometimes miss it when they show up

a few years from now, whatever Putin leaves behind, and whatever is not taken by Hungary and others may have a chance
Ukraine is now just an old sprawling Potempkin Village
propped up by a few pieces of rotting lumber
the wind blowing through empty ancient streets
too tired for dreaming
waiting...




Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: msmob on August 23, 2018, 02:39:06 AM
[Moby, You are delusional!

THAT from the guy who posts that I have lied - but won't be able to prove ONE example ...

During the Czech spring and that in Hungary there was no attempt to 'break free' of any Oligarchy. It was a failed attempt to restore freedom and personal rights. For what it is worth both Poland and Ukraine also had uprisings against Communism that were squashed.

Once again, your historical knowledge suffers a deficit ... 

Ukrainians sought a system / nation that:

1/ Didn't manipulate election results
2/ Allowed Journos to report freely without risk to their lives
3/ Electoral candidates to run campaigns without being poisoned
4/ Freedom to form alliances with nations other than - but not excluding - Russia

Sadly Ukraine has not had a V. Havel or L. Wałęsa.

Utter twaddle : and you REALLY should know better


Feel free to list in the post Communist era any patriots to the people of Ukraine.[/font][/size]

The list depends on whether you are  pro a more western outlook or retaining closer ties with Moscow

You'll not have heard of most of them - given there are SO many

It starts with journalists who have been threatened, beaten up or even killed for investigating stories

Georgiy Gongadze http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgiy_Gongadze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgiy_Gongadze) 

I dated a UA journo who worked for a new organisation that had to walk the tight rope of serving her Russian master and reporting fact ...   She knew Gongadze and after he was murdered resolved to learn Ukrainian

Small town Politicians - member of the Party of Regions - same party that disavowed Yanukovych

Volodymyr Rybak: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Ivanovych_Rybak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Ivanovych_Rybak)





Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: BdHvA on August 23, 2018, 06:31:55 AM
THAT from the guy who posts that I have lied - but won't be able to prove ONE example ...
Why should I, you have all your own BS.
 
Ukrainians sought a system / nation that:

1/ Didn't manipulate election results
2/ Allowed Journos to report freely without risk to their lives
3/ Electoral candidates to run campaigns without being poisoned
4/ Freedom to form alliances with nations other than - but not excluding - Russia

So did the rest of Eastern Europe that was under control of Russia, and they succeeded where as Ukraine is stuck in a swamp.

Look at the leaders today and the reality of Ukraine.



Georgiy Gongadze http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgiy_Gongadze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgiy_Gongadze) 

Small town Politicians - member of the Party of Regions - same party that disavowed Yanukovych

Volodymyr Rybak: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Ivanovych_Rybak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Ivanovych_Rybak)

What a joke! A Georgian and a local official, yes they were murdered. However they were not in any way shape or form leaders of Ukraine. For a while I had hoped Porchenko would move the country forward but he does not seem to be able or have the will to overcome the entrenched bureaucrats and the ogliarchs.

Many have 'disavowed Yanukovych' but it has NOT brought improvement to the country. Ukraine continues because the people are strong.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: msmob on August 23, 2018, 08:15:43 AM
Quote from: moby

THAT from the guy who posts that I have lied - but won't be able to prove ONE example ...



Why should I, you have all your own BS.

Er, you should - simply because if you can't - WHO is the Bullshitter ?...


So did the rest of Eastern Europe that was under control of Russia, and they succeeded where as Ukraine is stuck in a swamp.

I 'see' ...  Georgia has lost control of territory to 'Abkhazia' and S.Ossetia (Russian passports) , Moldova to 'Transnistria' ( Russian passports) and it's 'just Ukraine' in a swamp ....   ?

Thanks - once again you prove your geo-political knowledge ..   I 'forgot' - you've not been to ANY of these places and wouldn't HAVE a clue....


Look at the leaders today and the reality of Ukraine.

Indeed Poroshenko has been a BIG disappointment - yet another Oligarch who divvied up UA into friendly fiefdoms  ..but what has THAT got to do with you dissing lots of ordinary Ukrainians who've sacrificed their lives for the freedom they sought - in FAR greater numbers than former Czechoslovia ?


What a joke!

Wow, you are revealing yourself as a paragon of virtue..


A Georgian and a local official, yes they were murdered. However they were not in any way shape or form leaders of Ukraine.

Au contraire - what you fail to grasp is that is people like that - who stood up against bully boy tactics and refused to 'lie down' that are the heroes


Many have 'disavowed Yanukovych' but it has NOT brought improvement to the country. Ukraine continues because the people are strong

and yet they were the party of Yanu and where are they now ?   

Ukraine is a 'failed state' according to those who support the regime trying to ensure that and it is a tragedy that many Ukrainians dislike all Russians and we soon won't even be able to catch a train from Moscow to Kyiv - such is the tension

Now, have you any more DAFT assertions?
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: BdHvA on August 23, 2018, 08:39:28 AM
Moby, It is amazing to read how you attempt to change the topic and try to deflect from the core points that I and others made. Oddly enough we are not that far apart in agreement but it is your perverse sense that you want to argue for arguments sakes.

Having a discussion with you is like arguing with a simpleton who happens to be an eel in fact.

No offense to eels, smoked they are quite tasty. You on the other hand leave a bad taste before even meeting.


Title: Re: BdHvA does EXACTLY what he accuses me of ;)
Post by: msmob on August 23, 2018, 09:06:40 AM
Moby, It is amazing to read how you attempt to change the topic and try to deflect

That you see no irony in your assertion does you 'credit' ...   

YOU accused me of fibbing - cannot find an example to prove your point and are further demonstratinging you ain't that hot on recent UA history to boot..



change the topic and try to deflect from the core points that I and others made.

'sorry' - but when someone accuses me of lying with near impunity elsewhere and is foolish to do it HERE, too - I'll drag their feet over burning coals ! ;)

The core point in this case is you 'siding' with GQBlues when far more folks lost their lives in Ukraine.

Oddly enough we are not that far apart in agreement but it is your perverse sense that you want to argue for arguments sakes.

You could have fooled me re our stances being close..

Having a discussion with you is like arguing with a simpleton who happens to be an eel in fact.

No offense to eels, smoked they are quite tasty. You on the other hand leave a bad taste before even meeting. [/font][/size]

..and there we can close the matter... 

It is in indeed hard to discuss reason with a person who repeats a slur with no basis in fact and then declines to admit folly



Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: krimster2 on August 23, 2018, 09:09:38 AM
yeah BdHvA did this to me as well?

why BdHvA????

you gotta lotta 'splainin to do!!!!

Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: GQBlues on August 23, 2018, 09:42:55 AM
LMAO! Msmob's reasons why 2014 maidan is just like Prague Spring:

No. 1:
an attempt to break free of Oligarchy control of their lives.

No. 2:
Ukraine has plenty of Dubčeks and Havels - you're being not a little intensive / insulting

No. 3:
But here's the most obvious point ..  Just over seventy Czechs and Slovaks lost their lives when the Prague Spring was put down ...  Remind us how many Ukrainians have died in 2014 ?

 :ROFL: 

It amazes me how you have the audacity to repeatedly call Trenchcoat stupid!  :-X

Moby, You are delusional!...


Yeppers. Which is largely why I dubbed him my virtual Chihuahua. All bark, no bite. Just toss him a biscuit then ignore him. He'll get insecure and start looking for anything to hump.


http://youtu.be/wScuoTSxFSk
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: msmob on August 23, 2018, 09:50:37 AM
LMAO! Msmob's reasons why 2014 maidan is just like Prague Spring:


Another fail..2014 was far more serious in human strategy terms....deflect and obfuscate time ..
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: GQBlues on August 23, 2018, 09:52:57 AM

Reason No. 4:

Another fail..2014 was far more serious in human strategy terms....deflect and obfuscate time ..


Just keeps reinforcing my point.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: BdHvA on August 23, 2018, 10:12:46 AM
Another fail..2014 was far more serious in human strategy terms....deflect and obfuscate time ..

The above is a typical lie of Moby, from some one who does not understand history. Perhaps calling it a lie is unfair, call it simple ignorance.

The events in Prague were a top down revolution, that was supported by the general population.

Those in Ukraine (Maidan and the Orange Revolution) were protests from the bottom up by the people against the ruling nomenclature and actions they took.

To compare as equal events the one to the other is almost biazare, but than again some are delusional.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: msmob on August 23, 2018, 10:32:19 AM
The above is a typical lie of Moby, from some one who does not understand history.

More delicious irony

Perhaps calling it a lie is unfair, call it simple ignorance.

Ignorance is repeatedly calling someone a liar with no basis in fact and now you are trying to be 'nice' ...  [ puke ]

The events in Prague were a top down revolution, that was supported by the general population.

Is that your 'excuse' to big it up - even though far more people have lost their lives in Ukraine ?

Those in Ukraine (Maidan and the Orange Revolution) were protests from the bottom up by the people against the ruling nomenclature and actions they took.

Telly-tubbie No-oh, Duh time .... That was one reason ... the main reason for OR one was indignation at doctored results .... something STILL at play in Crimea, Russia and Belarus.

To compare as equal events the one to the other is almost biazare, but than again some are delusional.[/font][/size]

Hmm, I have already said - now - three times - that the UA situation was far more serious in human terms ...   

However, the actions of the leaders in '68 were inspirational and I'm truly sorry if anything I've posted suggests otherwise.

You now seem keen to prove who argues for arguments sake too ..what is telling is how you went Trappist - having suggested I lie ...

hmmm
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: Boethius on August 23, 2018, 10:43:32 AM
LOL. The go wrestle that with the entire population of Slovakia (since Alexander Dubcek IS (was) a Slovak) and let them know their take on their own history is wrong, and YOU'RE right.

Well, duh.  Who'd a thunk a man with a Slovak surname is a Slovak?

I don't have to wrestle the population.  I just have to read.  If you ever read scholarly works, you would know that even before the collapse of communism, the prevailing view of experts was that Prague Spring was about economic reform. 

Since the collapse of the Eastern bloc, historical documents - meetings of Dubcek with Brezhnev, the KSC's notes on reforms, the Soviet response, etc., have become available to scholars, and numerous works have been written on the era.  From those works, what has changed in the understanding of events (I mean by scholars from before the collapse) is just how haphazard much of those "reforms" were. 

Unlike many other Eastern bloc countries, Czechoslovakia had a strong communist movement in the immediate postwar period, and the communists came to power partly through democratic means.  Communism had not been imposed on the country as it had been in, say, Poland.  Czechoslovakia had also been a concern to the Soviets since at least the removal of Khrushchev, as the KSC made clear to the Soviets they were unhappy with his removal.

There had been a loosening of the levers of control on society long before Dubcek came to power.  Russian archives are full of reports from the embassy in Prague about the activities of dissidents who were allowed to agitate freely.  In 1967, the Writers' Union (which really is where the lack of censorship was centred) held conferences denouncing censorship.  There were strikes across the country by students over their dormitory living conditions.  Crackdowns failed to stop this unrest, which is how the "reformer" arm of the KSC, including Dubcek, gained the upper hand in the party and came to power.

The reformers weren't particularly interested in democratic reform.  Unlike the USSR, Czechoslovakia had a fairly advanced, industrialized economy before WWII.  Dubcek espoused economic reforms, stating that Soviet style socialism did not work economically in his country because conditions were different, and that non state owned or state controlled businesses should be introduced (similar to NEP in the USSR in the 1920's).  By the time the KSC had formulated this economic plan and a plan to introduce it slowly, the Writers' Union, which had not been dealt with at all, had effectively ended censorship.

There were several meetings between Dubcek and the Soviets, and the Soviets warned him of the consequences of failing to rein in a few areas.  One was to take control of the media.  Another was to remove certain KSC members from the party.  The third was to reform the secret police.  When none of these things were implemented by the KSC, the Soviets invaded.  Archive records now prove that most of the "reformers" in the KSC whom Dubcek relied upon were informing on him to the Soviets.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: Boethius on August 23, 2018, 10:51:18 AM
BO, up there in that Canada, did your University have a monthly copy of "Problems of Communism"
it was published by the US State Dept, sick hospital green cover?

you familiar by any chance, it's been published FOR decades back to the 50s/60s

Wow, blast from the past!  When I was working on my M.A., I had a subscription to Problems in Communism.  In those days, a lot of periodicals were not expensive.  I used to spend days in the periodical room (now closed).  All the Eastern European periodicals were in a separate small room, and I was always the only person in there.  I used to read Commentary, The Journal of East European Studies, The Journal of Comparative Communism, The Journal of Slavic Studies, and the list goes on.  I also used to read all the Soviet newspapers. 

I was introduced to Problems in Communism by one of my professors, who was a Czech who escaped in 1968.  At the time I was studying with him, he was in his sixties, and the rumour was he had ties to the CIA.  There was a similar rumour about one of my American poli sci profs (that he worked for the CIA).  In the latter case, I later learned, from a retired prof that lived in our apartment building, also an American, that the rumour was indeed true. 

Did you study communist systems at university?  Not too many others would be familiar with Problems in Communism.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: Boethius on August 23, 2018, 11:05:01 AM
IMHO, comparing the 2014 maidan to Prague Spring is blasphemous. An insult to Alexander Dubcek and the Czech and Slovakian people. This displays a complete lack of understanding of what the Prague Spring was about.


Well, it's hardly blasphemous but they are different.  Maidan was a protest about corruption, and corrupt politicians mowed down those protesting their corruption.  That is what lead, directly, to Yanukovych's removal.


Those killed in 1968 were not protesting for freedom.  They were peacefully asking Soviets to leave their country.



Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: GQBlues on August 23, 2018, 11:26:29 AM

Well, it's hardly blasphemous but they are different.<snip>


Phew! Long-winded with way too much noise! However, I'm glad see when all is said and done, you came around and agree. Comparing the two events is akin to comparing a chihuahua to a looney 'toon.


Carry on...
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: krimster2 on August 23, 2018, 11:34:40 AM
while I was going to college I had a part time entry level job working on the publication, they were located not far from my university
an amazing group of people, I wish I could get my hands on some of the old issues, especially the ones where they predicted the collapse of the CCCP
a lot of ex-soviet bloc intelligentsia/refuseniks worked there, amazing group of people, totally dedicated to "the cause"
I don't really see any equivalent group of people today
I thought you might've encountered it, long gone now I'm afraid
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: The Natural on August 23, 2018, 02:59:10 PM
Ukraine has dignity? It is a hollowed out country. I have Ukrainian friends and enjoy going there, but as a society it has essentially collapsed.

Politics are dominated by US-backed or Russian-backed interests. 2014 was a US-backed movement. The Donbass separatists are Russian-backed. Without US financial support the Ukrainian government would collapse and Russia would take over.

Russia wants Ukraine as a buffer from NATO. Much like it previously wanted Eastern Europe as a buffer. I don't believe territorial sovereignty is the major driver. There's also historical context because culturally the two are rather intertwined.

Ahhh, there IS sanity here after all. Well said, man.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: Boethius on August 23, 2018, 03:12:56 PM

Phew! Long-winded with way too much noise! However, I'm glad see when all is said and done, you came around and agree. Comparing the two events is akin to comparing a chihuahua to a looney 'toon.

Carry on...


I don't recall ever posting the two events are the same.  However, knowing some history, I reject both your, and Jay's assertions, that Dubcek was advocating for freedom.  He wasn't.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: Boethius on August 23, 2018, 03:22:56 PM
while I was going to college I had a part time entry level job working on the publication, they were located not far from my university
an amazing group of people, I wish I could get my hands on some of the old issues, especially the ones where they predicted the collapse of the CCCP
a lot of ex-soviet bloc intelligentsia/refuseniks worked there, amazing group of people, totally dedicated to "the cause"
I don't really see any equivalent group of people today
I thought you might've encountered it, long gone now I'm afraid


Hmm, I don't recall anyone predicting the collapse of the USSR was imminent.  Even the KGB didn't predict it.  On the eve of the coup, the gulags were ready for prisoners.  I think multiple sources did predict that it would eventually collapse.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: GQBlues on August 23, 2018, 03:57:32 PM

I don't recall ever posting the two events are the same.  However, knowing some history, I reject both your, and Jay's assertions, that Dubcek was advocating for freedom.  He wasn't.


Reject it all you want, means doodley squat to me. Matters pertaining to Czech/Slovakia, especially their history, I'll readily take their word for it way before I take one from a Canadian who's probably never even been there.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: Boethius on August 23, 2018, 04:06:39 PM
They are not my thoughts.  They are the thoughts, distilled, of dozens of scholars, experts who have devoted their lives to study of the issue, many of them from either the Czech or Slovak Republics.  But I'm certain your wikipedia leaks are just as useful.


As a matter of fact, I have been to Czechoslovkia.  I was there in the 1980's,  At that time, I was living in the USSR, before Gorbachev was appointed Secretary-General of the USSR.  It was extremely oppressive, far, far more so than the USSR.




Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: GQBlues on August 23, 2018, 04:35:32 PM
Riiiiight! I'm sure you were with a relative, too. Your regurgitated verbose didn't cut it, LOL. Too bad for you wasting your time trying to dupe another subject.



Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: krimster2 on August 23, 2018, 07:13:40 PM
All armed prophets have conquered and all unarmed ones failed.
What happens, if the prophet, having conquered and then ruled by force of arms, loses faith in his own prophecy

that + a prison revolt in “The Jail House of Nations”

interesting to me, how people on the outside couldn’t see
and people on the inside couldn’t see
but only people who were both on the outside and inside
the Czechs and Hungarians were the most intense

I met Golitsyn, don’t know if you knew him, possible you even met him?
I thought he was a classic paranoid at the time!
He claimed that Russia would trick the US into thinking the cold war was over, and that the US would eliminate containment, and that Russia would then cripple the US economically and politically.   

haha, I mean crazy, paranoid, hehe... wait, what?
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: msmob on August 23, 2018, 08:10:37 PM
Riiiiight! I'm sure you were with a relative, too. Your regurgitated verbose didn't cut it, LOL. Too bad for you wasting your time trying to dupe another subject.

GQB

Smart guys admit when they encounter someone who knows what they're talking bout ...


In this case - why not thank Boethius for educating us and move on ?
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: Boethius on August 23, 2018, 11:50:23 PM
There is a romanticization of both 1956 and 1968 without understanding that, fundamentally, these were not events about freedom.  They were orchestrated, and controlled, by communists who intended to remain communist.  They just wanted to control the "agenda". 


The only country that was different was Poland, because their movement for change was started by labour unions (though orchestrated by intellectuals), and supported by the Catholic Church, which, despite communism, was still very influential in Poland.  Even communists went to church.   


In the end, I believe Jay's initial comparison was flawed, but I understand what he is getting at.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: Boethius on August 23, 2018, 11:57:33 PM
Riiiiight! I'm sure you were with a relative, too. Your regurgitated verbose didn't cut it, LOL. Too bad for you wasting your time trying to dupe another subject.

No, I went to Czechoslovakia alone.  I was not yet married, and in any event, none of my Soviet relatives would have been entitled to receive visas.  A flawed assumption by you yet again, as you don't understand how the Soviet system operated.

I have an MA in a related field, and one of my required fields of study (seminar work) was comparative communism.  So, I can tell you a great deal about all the Eastern bloc.  I studied at a university that had one of the best departments of East European studies in the world at the time, long before you were bride seeking or before you could identify Prague or Warsaw, or likely Moscow, on a map.  I haven't kept up so much with journals, but I do still read a lot of books in the areas, primarily to learn new things, given the release of archives previously closed to Western scholars.  So excuse me if I am not impressed by your wiki links, or your apparent romanticization of an event that was hardly a call for freedom.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: Boethius on August 24, 2018, 12:08:57 AM
I met Golitsyn, don’t know if you knew him, possible you even met him?
I thought he was a classic paranoid at the time!
He claimed that Russia would trick the US into thinking the cold war was over, and that the US would eliminate containment, and that Russia would then cripple the US economically and politically.   

haha, I mean crazy, paranoid, hehe... wait, what?

I never met him.  I did meet, unknowingly, some KGB operatives in my city, not defectors, though.

I think all KGB defectors (and some, I believe, were still loyal to the KGB) were paranoid, because you don't just "leave" the KGB.

I don't think Russia can cripple the US economically.  I also don't think Russia can cripple the US politically.  Any advantage they obtain over the US is due to the doings of American politicians, not foreigners.  IMHO, the former need to love their country more than they love money or power.
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: krimster2 on August 24, 2018, 04:02:57 AM
read/watch anything from the following two women (some of the few Putin critics left alive)

Yulia Latynina
Masha Gessen

Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: msmob on August 24, 2018, 06:46:52 AM
An interesting article :

1/Suggests deaths under reported

2/ Dubcek ' no hero ' ....complaint even and NOT respected..

http://meduza.io/en/feature/2018/08/24/before-1968-we-had-nothing-against-russia-or-the-soviet-union (http://meduza.io/en/feature/2018/08/24/before-1968-we-had-nothing-against-russia-or-the-soviet-union)

Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: GQBlues on August 24, 2018, 03:48:16 PM
 :clapping:


Have a nice weekend, everyone!!! Don't let such a promisingly beautiful days go to waste. Get out and enjoy some sun, fun, activities with friends, family, etc...Life is wonderful!


Ethan, this message will self-destruct in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1.....
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: msmob on August 24, 2018, 10:54:26 PM

no hero ' ....complaint even and NOT respected..

http://meduza.io/en/feature/2018/08/24/before-1968-we-had-nothing-against-russia-or-the-soviet-union (http://meduza.io/en/feature/2018/08/24/before-1968-we-had-nothing-against-russia-or-the-soviet-union)

That would be COMPLIANT - sorry
Title: Re: 50 Years After Prague Spring, Lessons on Freedom
Post by: The Natural on August 24, 2018, 10:56:10 PM
:clapping:


Have a nice weekend, everyone!!! Don't let such a promisingly beautiful days go to waste. Get out and enjoy some sun, fun, activities with friends, family, etc...Life is wonderful!



You're right. Life is wonderful, especially if one has a good health and enough of the necessities and live without war.
You too have a nice weekend GQBlues  :)